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The Mark Crutcher - Army of God connection (video evidence)

So when is this forum coming down?

by: Elessar

In a recent YouTube.com video, Mark Crutcher of Life Dynamics describes how he encourages people to use his ProLifeAmerica.com forum to promote their own pro-life work. Prominent on Crutcher's forum is Waco Right to Life's Rick Ellis, also known as Richard Ellis. In the past, other Army of God members such as Robert Ferguson and the self ordained Rev Donald Spitz, who runs the AOG webpage, have appeared on Crutcher's forum defending the use of lethal violence against abortion providers. Crutcher's forum has also been regular in its allowance of the verbal abuse of post abortive women who post there. I posted on Mark Crutcher's forum for years before finally being banned by Crutcher himself for outing Army of God forum users and for making my concerns about Crutcher's proximity to Army of God sympathizers known off forum.
Rick Ellis is featured on the Army of God website condoning the use of lethal violence against abortion providers and celebrating those who have killed abortion providers in the past. The same Army of God webpage which refers to Ellis as an "anti-abortionist extraordinaire", also contains an implied threat against an abortion provider named Martha. "Just retire abortionist." Ellis states. "Simply retire, and you will not have to worry about one of the many thousands of Scott Roeders popping up in your review (rear view) mirror." Ellis clearly not only supports violence, he seems to expect more of the same kinf of violence in the future. Concerned users for years have made their concerns known to Mark Crutcher and yet Crutcher has done little to nothing about Ellis and in fact has denied knowing the man. Crutcher revamped forum rules last year, but little has changed.
Mark Crutcher's ProLifeAmerica forum has in the past year allowed posts about Abby Johnson, a former Planned Parenthood director turned pro-life advocate, which call her a phony, a liar and a baby killer, among other things. The PLA forum pages also promoted Facebook groups that called Johnson's own pro-life Facebook pages and other online web pages "death scum sites". As for the great work that Rick Ellis is doing, most of his followers through PLA.com are sympathizers with the AOG style of pro-life terrorism and extreme inflamatory rhetoric. The images of protestors in the recent video featuring Crutcher and Ellis were in fact from a single protest provided by a single user in New Hampshire from several years ago. There is some shameless self promotion going on here between these two long time colleagues, it's simply difficult to decide whether it's by Mark Crutcher or Rick Ellis.
Mark Crutcher does a great disservice to the pro-life movement by associating with such people as Rick Ellis. But then, Crutcher would likely tell us that we are simply hyper-ventilating, in the same way that he said the media was doing after the murder of late term abortion provider George Tiller. Much ado about nothing? Crutcher may not support pro-life/anti-abortion violence, or promote this kind of violence against abortion providers, but he has not once lifted a single finger to prevent it. It is perhaps I suspect, and I hope that I am wrong, a strange kind of deniable plausibility. It's most ironic that it is precisely this kind of "hear no evil, see no evil" mentality that says "If I don'look, I won't know what the truth is", that justifies so many of the millions of abortions that Crutcher claims to work to prevent. One does not justify evil, or ignore evil, to end another evil. This truth I will live by.
Watch the video!!!

reply from: nancyu

This is a GREAT video!!! Thanks for suggesting it Ellessar.
To Elessar fans:
Ellessar makes money from the pro life movement. That is why he does not want to *make abortion illegal* by illustrating that those in the womb are actually persons who are entitled to Constitutional protection.
No one should fear the Army of God, just fear God.

reply from: Elessar

I do not make money from the pro-life movement. I have never made money from the pro-life movement. I have never been paid to write and I do not accept donations.

reply from: Elessar

And before the moderator would delete this post, or my account, I would ask why it is that Mark Crutcher is allowed the benefit of the doubt that he does not support the views of the Army of God but other pro-lifers are not afforded the same benefit of the doubt that Abby Johnson is a sincere pro-life advocate or that I am not pro-life as I claim? Or do the owner and moderator cling to a double standard? Can we not at least be consistent and fair about who we are?
And, by allowing people who propose the pro-violence ideals of the Army of God on this forum, are not the owner and moderator at least cautiously proposing that violence is simply one way among many equally valid ways to bring about the end of abortion? I propose that as one cannot be personally opposed to abortion and publically for choice, neither can one be personally opposed to pro-life violence and publically supportive of violence. You can't be pro-violence and pro-life.
Violent advocacy is simply terrorism by another name.

reply from: nancyu

Whether or not you line your own pockets, you certainly spend a great deal of your time promoting organizations that DO make substantial money from the pro life movement.
While some of us agree with SOME of the ideals that Army of God support (such as the idea that those in the womb are actual persons who are entitled to protection by the same laws, and EQUAL defense that any other person would receive in the same situation) this is NOT promoting "pro violence ideals".
I hope you will carry out your threat and leave the forum, but my guess is that you will just come back with a new handle.
I think you enjoy "the game" too much to leave.

reply from: SticksAndStones

Screaming into the void again Elessar? When you finally discover that no one much cares or believes what you think, what then, madness?
Both Mark and Rick are making a real difference in this fight where you, by contrast, are so flummoxed by it that you've become a would-be tattle-tale. Are you delusional enough to believe that you can silence them?
You need to protect your mental health Elessar. Perhaps you should go see your Priest and discuss this with him. Tell him how badly all this is effecting your demeanor and ability to enjoy things. Just tell him the truth of all this and I'm sure he will be able to comfort you with his advise and wisdom.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Excellent and very important post Elessar.
Years ago I quit traveling with The Missionaries to the Preborn because individuals like Dan Holman, who advocated lawlessness and violence, was permitted to travel with the group. The founder of Missionaries to the Preborn himself also wrote articles promoting disobedience to government. I have had eight children and disagree with killing preborn children. But no person can associate himself with terrorists who promote lawlessness and violence as a response. Unfortunately, it appears challenging to find a reasonable group I can associate myself with to protest against abortion. Many pro-life groups have been derelict in their duty to keep out those who advocate violence and lawlessness.

reply from: JasonFontaine

I would LOVE - so LOVE to tell my children how I became a MILLIONAIRE from the Pro-Life Movement. I'm here today telling you I want to get RICH from being Pro-Life. I'm going to keep $1.50 from my little pictures - and if I get enough people to promote this simple concept - I'll be rich....
And think how many people it will reach.
And possible teach a thing or two.
As long as the ABORTION industry can generate hundreds of millions of dollars of the destruction of the purest form of innocence - as a father and someone who believes in the LIFE movement - yes - I want to get RICH....
Which would you rather see? A planned parenthood with a Mercedes in front or a father of 5 promoting LIFE with a Mercedes - I like Fords though!
SUPPORT those that SUPPORT life....it's that simple...and remember - the Egg is NOT dead!!!!

Never fear - it would take an army of MILLIONS to get me rich - but I'm trying!

reply from: AquaGirl

"The images of protestors in the recent video featuring Crutcher and Ellis were in fact from a single protest provided by a single user in New Hampshire from several years ago."
This is a quote copied from the recent post by Elessor. At no time has Mark Crutcher ever protested in New Hampshire, with or without Rick Ellis. If you can't get this simple fact straight how can we trust what you have to say? I can tell you though that you have broken one of the few rules of the forum by naming names.
There are very few rules here in order to make it an open forum that allows a free flow of thoughts and opinions. Surely, you can follow that one simple rule.
Also, there is no guilt by association or plausible deniability on the part of Mark Crutcher.

reply from: terry

All righty. This is just ridiculous. Let's get a few things straight, here.
First of all: I am seeing quite a bit of rule-breaking in this thread, by forum members who should know better. For anyone who does not know the rules, or needs a refresher course, the rules are pinned at the top of the General Abortion Discussion category. Read them. I call your attention in particular to the rules forbidding personal attacks against forum members, and forbidding any posts revealing the personal information about any forum members. You all should know these rules, or you should not be posting here.
Now. As for what topics are permissible to discuss on this forum--this, too, is covered in The Rules. Please read them. To refresh your memory--this forum is for the discussion of one issue: ABORTION. There are many names that are relevant in the abortion discussion--people like Mark Crutcher, Abby Johnson, Rick Ellis, George Tiller, Margaret Sanger, Troy Newman, and Adolf Hitler. A lot of names come up on this forum, and there are no topics off limits as long as they are related to abortion (and we even have the Off Topic category for the rest). You are allowed to discuss all of these subjects, and to share your opinions freely. But there are a few simple rules--no profanity, personal attacks on other forum members, or revealing personal info about other forum members. This is not rocket science, people.
As for Mark knowing Rick Ellis--hello? Everybody in the pro-life movement knows Rick Ellis, and the "I Am A Person" campaign is both popular and successful. Also, Mark knows pretty much everyone significant in the pro-life movement at this point. He's been doing this a long time, and has had many guests on LifeTalk. So why this "Mark knows Rick Ellis!!!" should be such headline news to anyone is just silly. Of course Mark knows Rick Ellis.
As for what Mark believes and endorses--if you want to know what Mark thinks about something, you don't have to make wild assumptions. Mark has spent years putting together web sites, television programs, videos, books, pamphlets, and interviews to tell the world what he thinks about all these issues. Speculating about Mark's views is totally unnecessary. Do some research if you want to know his views--he's not exactly shy about sharing them.
And, once more, for strongest emphasis: FOLLOW THE FORUM RULES. Please.
Thank you,
Terry (moderator)

reply from: Tam

LOL Seriously, Elessar? The above post does not even make sense, let alone make a valid point.
Are you confused about what "pro-life" means? Oh, believe me, I wish it meant all the glorious pacifist things you apparently think it means, but the fact is, the term has a definition, and the definition is limited to ONE subject--abortion. It doesn't have anything to do with violence, with war, with eating meat, with rape, battery, kidnapping, mugging, capital punishment, murder of born people, or the price of tea in China. It means ONE thing, and that ONE thing is, "opposing legal abortion". It is a political designation. Just like saying "I'm a democrat" or "I'm a republican" doesn't mean some random stuff about democracy and republics--it is a political designation. Like saying, "I'm liberal" doesn't mean I put a lot of sugar in my coffee, it is a political designation.
Yes, it would be nice if everyone were peaceful and cooperative with one another all the time, and never hurt anybody. But "pro-life" does not mean "supporting a world in which everyone is peaceful and nice to each other" or whatever it is you have apparently decided it has to mean. It means "opposing legal abortion" -- learn it, live it, remember it, and stop making foolish statements that imply your own revision of the language to suit you. That's what proaborts do, man. If you have a problem with something, just say it, don't try to twist words around to make points like that. It just doesn't hold water.
It just sounds to me as though you are trying to smear the forum, the moderator, the owners, and every forum member, in one dirty play. I have no idea why you haven't been banned. It seems to me that "attempting to undermine and shut down the entire forum" should be a bannable offense. It would be one thing if you actually had a point--but you are just slinging mud IMO.

reply from: Elessar

No one associated with the Army of God should be allowed to post in this forum or any other forum. The AOG and their fans are terrorists and fans of terrorism. Not only is Ellis allowed to post, he posts as a person connected with the Army of God, with Mark Crutcher's blessing. That make Crutcher an enabler.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

If the late Robert Ferguson, Donald Spitz and Rick Ellis have been posting here (and there are indications they have), it is a shame on ProLife America. It would be like having a terrorist at the podium.
There is nothing more important than obeying the law, living orderly, and living peacefully with others. Failure to obey the law leads to anarchy, violence and death. (The Bible's main subjects are government and law - without which, life is impossible. The Bible is about calling saints to rule, teach and manage the entire created living system with Christ in God's Government.)
If individuals are encouraging others to engage in lawlessness or violence they have stepped over the line.

reply from: terry

I find it interesting that there is such strong opposition, on the part of a couple of very vocal individuals, to allowing certain PRO-LIFE persons to post here, yet there is no strong opposition to the PRO-CHOICE posters who frequent this forum.
The last word on this subject (and I am closing this thread to further replies) is this:
I have said it before. If expressing unspeakably offensive opinions were not allowed on this forum, the first ones to go would be the ones who think unborn children have no right to life. They are tolerated here in order to foster worthwhile discussion in the hope that the lives of innocent children may be saved. The question of disallowing certain PRO-LIFE viewpoints (and if you don't know the meaning of the word, look it up--Mark explains it many places) would not even arise until long after proaborts and racists were purged from the site. So far, there has been no such decision.
I think what some folks want is to have their own little forum, with only their own handpicked little group of people who agree with them on everything. Well, that's what your social media pages like facebook are for. This is a public forum, and you will encounter many different opinions here, some of which you will disagree with.
It should be patently obvious to anyone and everyone that Mark does not endorse a pro-abortion point of view, despite the fact that that point of view is tolerated in this public forum. It should be patently obvious to everyone that Mark does not endorse ANY particular view, simply because somebody posts it here, or because someone he knows has voiced it. If you want to know what Mark's opinion on something is, do a little research--there are several web sites, some videos, books, pamphlets, interviews, etc., all over the internet, to help you figure out, using logic and reason, what Mark's views are.
Why aren't you folks accusing Mark of supporting abortion, because proaborts are allowed to post here? Because it would make no sense, and everyone would laugh at the childishly crude attempt to make Mark, and PLA, look bad. I guess you figure that THIS subject is a little more complex, and that you stand a better chance of tricking people into believing the garbage you are posting so self-righteously. Well, it looks as though you have fooled no one. Further attempts of this nature will be dealt with more swiftly than this one, but I wanted to let this underhandedness stay on display for all to see. I will remove this thread at some point, but for now am letting it stand as an example of exactly the sort of dirty tricks that some people like to play.

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