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Pelosi Prays to St Joseph for the healthcare bill to pass

by: B0zo

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/03/19/pelosi_prays_to_st_joseph_to_pass_health_care.html

I wonder who she prays to regarding her support of destruction of life in the womb.
A classic case of a "cafeteria catholic."

reply from: joueravecfous

Kinda like your pope and his complicity in the abuse cover ups, right?

reply from: SkipperEd

That so true and I don't know why they don't kick people out that don't listen to the pope. O guess she don't think she need the pope to be her daddy and tell her what to do like the rest of us is she really Catholick at all even? I just don't get that if she is she must want to go to hell or maybe she gonna repent about it every night then she be ok long as she don't die in the morning but I guess as long as a preist get there before she die to hear her confession then she would still go to heaven I think right?

reply from: B0zo

I don't know anything about any "complicity," but even if true, it's not like that at all.
The pope has not and never will go against dogma.
If a pope had personal failings, that would be different than preaching against the teachings of the church.
I don't fault Nancy Pelosi for any of her personal failings, just for openly backstabbing our Church and her teachings.

reply from: SkipperEd

I don't think the pope would ever do that because hes a holy man and if he wasn't he wouldn't be the pope see? You must not be a christian or at least you not catholick maybe a mormon or something that don't like catholicks. You don't know what your talking about and everybody can see that and besides its a sin to say something like that anyhow.

reply from: SkipperEd

How come the pope don't kick her out because she won't listen and do what God says anyhow? Thats not right I don't think.

reply from: Shenanigans

You know, I don't really have any problems with people polluting the Catholic faith in their private lives, but making it public that they've twisted the doctrine our Church sits on, giving people the wrong impression, well, its just rather annoying frankly.
Oh well, end of the day she's got to answer to a Higher Authority than the American people.
I'd be scared sh1tless if I were her.

reply from: Shenanigans

So, you have information we don't?
Please to be sharing it.

reply from: LexIcon

Dr. Michael Savage said earlier this evening on his radio show that Pelosi prayed to St. Joseph Stalin.
Pelosi is like many so-called Catholics who have seized upon the Catholic teaching on the primacy of conscience to JUSTIFY their rejection of what the Church teaches about abortion.
In a 2006 interview with Eleanor Clift, Pelosi regretted that her family is "very pro-life" and would "like it if I were not so vocally pro-choice." But, she proclaimed, "To me it isn't even a question. God has given us a free will."
In response her own bishop remarked:
See: http://www.lifenews.com/state4731.html
">http://www.lifenews.com/state4731.html
As a wise man once said, "Freedom is power to do as one ought, not license to do as one pleases."

reply from: angelofsorrow

Nasty Pelosi is a fraud and prays to a saint to pass this murdering pro-abortion
health care bill?!

reply from: QueenJ

Are we (i.e. pro-choicers) all going to hell?

reply from: B0zo

Are we (i.e. pro-choicers) all going to hell?
Not necessarily (from our perspective).
But someone of the faith who preaches heresy and who supports the injustice of abortion is in a grave situation.
Nancy Pelosi "sold her soul" for money and power.

reply from: Shenanigans

Are we (i.e. pro-choicers) all going to hell?
I'm in no position to make judgements either way, that's God's business.
Though, teaching, from the RCC which is based on scripture, determines that abortion is a grevious mortal sin, resulting in damnation for those who engage in it.
Though, for a sin to be "mortal", there must be three factors.
It must be a grave matter, these are mentioned in the bible as murder, fornication, adultery, witchcraft. A grave matter is something that offends God.
These "grave" matters are based on offences against the 10 commandments.
Second, it must be committed with full knowledge that it is wrong, say, a Catholic having an abortion knows abortion is wrong and they're at a greater risk of the eternal bonfire than say an athiest or non-Catholic. However, if one believes abortion is wrong, regardless of their faith, but has one anyway, they are on the same standing as a Catholic who aborts.
Thridly, there must be full consent. So a 12 year old who has an abortion is exempt, unless, it is known to God that she aware of all the information and participates fully.
What makes Pelosi's actions mortal, is while she has not had an abortion (that we know of) she supports it, and is praising it, and in this case, praying for a bill that will fund it. She has co-operated in the sin of abortion on a mass scale. Even if this bill doesn't pass, or the abortion funding is removed, she has achieved enough attention for her actions to be leaving a nice big blob of blackness on her soul.
Her actions are the same as say a Catholic mother who knows abortion is wrong, and accepts abortion is grevious, but still gets her 12 year old an abortion.
Long and short of it, I accept that chances are pro-choicers who do not personally gain for themselves or others, or who promote abortion, will be spending a long time in Purgatory.
Those who obtain abortions, coerece abortions, perform abortions publically support abortion, they're probably not going to fare too well, I pray for the conversation of their souls before its too late.
Its not too late for Pelosi either. The Church will welcome her home if she repents. There is nothing God can't forgive. But because her sin is so public, so must her repentance.
People like Pelosi and other pro-choice "catholics" are misusing a part of teaching the discusses matters that we must not violate our conscience. However, it must be a moral, well informed conscience that matches the teachings of God.
Their logic to state that the Catholic Church welcomes pro-aborts is based on that "my conscience says abortion is okay".
Well, consider this, Hitler's conscience said it was okay to massacre the Jews in the millions. Hitler's conscience was obviously not morally or well informed and it contraindicated the teachings of the life giving God.
The same applies here, Pelosi and other pro-abortion "catholics" have twisted the concept of informed conscience to include things are that morally debase and against God.
You might not view abortion as murder, Queen, and you may place no value on the life of the unborn, and you're certainly in your right to do so as you have freedom of will and choice, but God intended us to use our freedom of choice to make the right choice, and the God of Life, the Supreme Creator isn't too happy about people killing His children and devaluing them.
But really, I could be full of sh1t, us Christians and Catholics could totally have the wrong end of the stick abut abortion, about everything. But what then? I die and go to an afterlife and find a female pro-abortion deity? What's she going to say? Well, probably something along the lines of "Well, you annoyed a lot of people, prevented people accessing abortion et al, and quite frankly, were spouting a lot of BS, but you meant well, and you were trying to help people, so you can come into my liberal heaven, have fun dancing around the phallic shaped may pole".
Or, the alternative: what happens when you die, or any other pro-abortion individual, and they find a God who hates abortion. You think He's going to "buy it" when you tell Him "well, my conscience said it was okay".
Or, we could all just end up maggoty corpses in boxes, in which case, nothing the heck matters so why bother living to any moral code anyway?
The fun's in trying to figure out what's what, and hoping we're right. Me, I'm not too concerned if I'm wrong, because I don't support the killing of anyone and I haven't killed anyone, not a lot of deities are going to get their panties in a bunch over my disgust towards the destruction of innocent human life.
Well, maybe the Allah terrorist's follow. That could cause problems.

reply from: B0zo

What do men get in this heaven? Seventy promiscuous babes?

reply from: EpicFailguy

Can't you Catholics get together and stop her from praying in a way you disapprove of? I mean, we can't have people praying however, to whomever, and for whatever they choose, right? Can't you guys get God to smite her or something?

reply from: EpicFailguy

What do men get in this heaven? Seventy promiscuous babes?
You're thinking of Muslim heaven, I believe. Catholics men probably get prepubescent little boys or something.
(nb4 butthurt Catholics objecting now because I "mocked" their religion, even though they didn't object to the obvious mocking of the Muslim religion, phucking hypocrites can dish it out, but can't take it, amirite?)

reply from: LexIcon

What do men get in this heaven? Seventy promiscuous babes?
You're thinking of Muslim heaven, I believe. Catholics men probably get prepubescent little boys or something.
(nb4 butthurt Catholics objecting now because I "mocked" their religion, even though they didn't object to the obvious mocking of the Muslim religion, phucking hypocrites can dish it out, but can't take it, amirite?)
Whether or not Catholic "phucking hypocrites" can take it, it isn't necessarily "mocking of the Muslim religion" to posit that Muslims are rewarded witn "Seventy promiscuous babes." See: http://www.likud.nl/extr147.html Also see: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2329/does-the-koran-really-promise-islamic-martyrs-72-virgins

reply from: Shenanigans

What do men get in this heaven? Seventy promiscuous babes?
I saw a comic strip in the paper not that long ago, where some terrorist got to heaven and was lead to his 70 virgins.
They were pimply faced computer nerds playing WOW.

reply from: Shenanigans

The major thing that seperates Catholics from other faiths, particulary other Christian denominations is we have doctrine and particular teaching.
If you're not going to toe the party line, go find a Christian sect that will let you do your own thing, Lord knows there's plenty out there.

reply from: Shenanigans

Oh boo hoo, someone said a bad thing about Catholism, what ever shall I do?
You might wanna go back and see I referred to the Allah terrorists adhere to.
Not the Allah normal, peaceful everyday Muslims refer to.
If I was mocking anything, it was the idiots who adhere to a twisted version of a major religion.
Of course, its more fun to just make yourself out to look like a sad little man, isn't it?

reply from: LexIcon

Oh boo hoo, someone said a bad thing about Catholism, what ever shall I do?
You might wanna go back and said I referred to the Allah terrorists adhere to.
Not the Allah normal, peaceful everyday Muslims refer to.
If I was mocking anything, it was the idiots who adhere to a twisted version of a major religion.
What do you know about Islam? How twisted is it AS MOHAMMAD REVEALED IT?
See: http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/occultism.htm

reply from: Shenanigans

I didn't say I thought it was a valid religion. Just a major religion. And quite frankly, I dont' believe it to be correct, scripture makes it clear that any religion or "prophet" that comes after Jesus that does not acknowledge Him as Lord or counters what is stated in the Gospels is not of Lord. It is not truth.
However, as odd as Mohammed was, he did start a faith that now has nine hundred million adherents, and only a few (I saw a stat that said 10,000) who take the whole killing infidels et al literally.
I have Muslim friends, and they have no interest in killing me for my faith or the destruction of Western society. They are peace loving individuals who just happen to be following the wrong guy. Are they doomed to Hell? Only God knows.

reply from: QueenJ

Fornication is a mortal sin?
I support abortion.
I sing the praises of the availability of abortion.
And if I were religious, I'd pray for abortion legislation to be passed.
I was saved when I was around 8 or so. I've been led to believe that there aren't any take-backs on being born again.
I won't ever apologize for my beliefs. I believe them to be right, fair, and just. I also believe that if there is, indeed, a god of some kind he/she/it will understand where I'm coming from and why I believe in what I do.
It's my understanding that the church is on the record as anti-abortion (in all cases, except to save the life of the mother?), but the bible never really mentions it. I'm assuming that since you believe abortion to be murder and that since the bible does say that murder is wrong, then logically:
abortion = murder
murder = wrong
abortion = wrong
But the bible never actually says it's wrong, so how do you know?
If I never hear another pro-fetal-lifer incorrectly and offensively make correlations between abortion and the Holocaust, it will be too soon.
There is value to the unborn. It's just that the value of born humans is much more.
It's interesting that you paint a liberal/pro-choice god as so forgiving when your god is not and would not do the same if he were put in the same situation.
Well, I wouldn't be lying if I said that, so he'd have to buy it. So ... ?
Because people who don't believe in life can't possibly be moral or have a set of morals?
I don't support the killing of anyone and I haven't killed anyone either.

reply from: EpicFailguy

What do men get in this heaven? Seventy promiscuous babes?
You're thinking of Muslim heaven, I believe. Catholics men probably get prepubescent little boys or something.
(nb4 butthurt Catholics objecting now because I "mocked" their religion, even though they didn't object to the obvious mocking of the Muslim religion, phucking hypocrites can dish it out, but can't take it, amirite?)
Whether or not Catholic "phucking hypocrites" can take it, it isn't necessarily "mocking of the Muslim religion" to posit that Muslims are rewarded witn "Seventy promiscuous babes." See: http://www.likud.nl/extr147.html Also see: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2329/does-the-koran-really-promise-islamic-martyrs-72-virgins
I was actually trying to troll Bozo, but I'll take it!

reply from: EpicFailguy

Oh, other faiths don't have "doctrine and particular teaching?" Do tell!

reply from: EpicFailguy

Oh boo hoo, someone said a bad thing about Catholism, what ever shall I do?
You might wanna go back and see I referred to the Allah terrorists adhere to.
Not the Allah normal, peaceful everyday Muslims refer to.
If I was mocking anything, it was the idiots who adhere to a twisted version of a major religion.
Of course, its more fun to just make yourself out to look like a sad little man, isn't it?
Yeah, I actually wasn't responding to anything you said, but once more, I'll accept this! Successful troll, etc.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Oh boo hoo, someone said a bad thing about Catholism, what ever shall I do?
You might wanna go back and said I referred to the Allah terrorists adhere to.
Not the Allah normal, peaceful everyday Muslims refer to.
If I was mocking anything, it was the idiots who adhere to a twisted version of a major religion.
What do you know about Islam? How twisted is it AS MOHAMMAD REVEALED IT?
See: http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/occultism.htm
How "twisted" were the beliefs of the Hebrews as Moses "revealed" them? The Muslims see it just like you do. They are as big apologists as Christians, asserting that we don't understand, have no right to question, etc...
I think it's all a bunch of BS, but a comparison between the Judaism/Christianity and Islam, while not completely vindicating either mindset, appears to leave the Muslims with the more easily rationalized position. The Koran doesn't have all that seemingly arbitrary and, in my view, inexcusable killing of innocents and such you find in the Bible.
Sure, you can find some pretty bad stuff in some of the Hadiths, etc., but I'm talking about a comparison between the Bible and Koran. If you want to include all the accumulated "knowledge" regarding Islam, then I think it's only fair to include the Talmud with the Bible, and that doesn't work out in your favor, trust me!

reply from: EpicFailguy

I didn't say I thought it was a valid religion. Just a major religion. And quite frankly, I dont' believe it to be correct, scripture makes it clear that any religion or "prophet" that comes after Jesus that does not acknowledge Him as Lord or counters what is stated in the Gospels is not of Lord. It is not truth.
However, as odd as Mohammed was, he did start a faith that now has nine hundred million adherents, and only a few (I saw a stat that said 10,000) who take the whole killing infidels et al literally.
I have Muslim friends, and they have no interest in killing me for my faith or the destruction of Western society. They are peace loving individuals who just happen to be following the wrong guy. Are they doomed to Hell? Only God knows.
The Koran doesn't allow killing of innocents. In war, you can't kill non-combatants, and you have to show mercy if your enemy surrenders. The Bible, on the other hand, clearly states that "God" specifically ordered the killing of innocents, and on some occasions, genocide against whole nations of people.
nb4 "jihadists." They're the Muslim equivalent of the AOG of KKK and others who twist their faith so as to conform with their political agendas or whatever rather than living their lives so as to conform to their professed faith. I get that you understand this, Shenanigans.

reply from: B0zo

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?

reply from: EpicFailguy

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
Where does it say the Pope is?

reply from: Shenanigans

If, you and I are both on the same page that "fornication" is sex between two unmarried persons.
But yes, fornication is a mortal sin.
And that's certainly in your right to do so. Of course, all actions have consequences.
So, if you walked into a childrens' hospital and mowed everyone down with a machine gun, but claimed to be "saved", does that mean you'll get into Heaven?
There's no logic to "once saved, always saved".
Being "saved" does not mean you have free reign to do as you please. Being saved means surrending your entire life, your mind, your soul and your will to Jesus Christ. It means that you walk with Him and in His footsteps. It means you live the life Christ wants you to live. The least of these, do unto others, et cetera.
Once you are "saved" your mind dwells in the mind of God, and His ideas are planted into yours.
OF course, technically, we are all saved, we just have to claim it, but to truly claim it, we must live as Christ wants us to live. And do you honestly, honestly beleive Jesus Christ was beaten, scourged, humilated, nailed to a cross, and suffered a death so hideous it is beggers beleif, all so you could go and without pang of conscience kill your unborn child?
Its not some lazy arse "get out of jail free" card.
You said above you were saved when you were 8ish. If you were truly saved, you wouldn't state "if there is, indeed, a god of some kind he/she/it will understand".
God is not a douche. He is not a moron. You cannot pull the wool over His eyes. Seriously, He's a scary Guy when He wants to be. He has laid down a set of instructions and guidelines we are to live by. God's not going to just say "oh, I understand why you raped all those children, why you murdered all those old people, whatever".
God's made it very clear how we are to live our lives. And those who claim to be "saved" or claim to be "christian" will be held to a higher standard.
Actually, the only exception is ectopic pregnancy, and the intention of that is to not kill the child, the child's death is a sad, unintended reality.
Well, technically, the bible doesn't mention drink driving, but we all know that's wrong, and it doesn't mention anything about not going on a meth binge.
However:
Firstly, there's the whole "thou shalt not murder". Abortion is murder, thus, abortion is Bibically prohibited.
Secondly, the most used part of the bible to express its lack of concern for the unborn is the part about two men fighting, one strikes a woman and she miscarries.
However, this has been mistranslated. In the Hebrew text, the word they use is not "miscarry" but "come fourth" or "born prematurely", the child actually doesn't die. Therefore, the fine the men incur is not showing that the foetus only has monetary value, but the money is for the parents to pay for the child's sudden arrival into the world and its requirements - as the parents may not be ready just yet.
You can read about the semantics here:
http://www.errantskeptics.org/Exodus2122.htm
">http://www.errantskeptics.org/Exodus2122.htm
Of course, there is the great big long debacle of Hosea where there's mention of slashing open the bellies of pregnant women and dashing the heads of the babes on the rocks. Many would argue that's God supporting abortion, but given the women are likely to die as well, its sort of a great big moot. I for one am more inclined to beleive such a massacre was orchestrated by jealous goat herders using God as justification for acts of vengance. And even if its not, only God has the right to end life, since its' His in the first place:
Subsquently the christian pro-abortion argument of "my body, my choice" BS, does not apply:
"You are not your own property, you were bought with the blood of the saviour, therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's" 1.Corinthians 6:19-20
Basically, you are not yours. You belong to God. All life belongs to God. That tiny embryo in your womb, that belongs to God, not to you. Therefore, you have no right to end its' life.
Also, "A man leaves his family and cleaves to his wife, they become one flesh". Genesis 2: 4-9
The one flesh is the child. The child starts its life in the womb. Again, alerting you to the fact that there is another life.
The above two verses also give proof to while fornication is a sin, especially in conjunction with:
1 Corinthians 6
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals".
Romans 13:13
Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkeness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife nor jealously.
Galatians 5:19
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality.
Revelation 21:8
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominal and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death".
Hebrews: 13:4
Let marriage be held in honour among all, and let the marriage bed be unpolluted, for fornicators and adulterers God will judge!
Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord", will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven".
Which of course, scriptually answers the above discussion about you being saved, and once saved always saved rubbish.
Basically, how many more scriptures do you need to beleive God doesn't want people having sex outside of wedlock?
Then there's the Pro-Life favourite of:
Psalm 139: 13-14
"For You created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I priase you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful I know that full well"
Basically, the Lord knows the unborn child, He is aware of them as they grow them, as He is the one who crafted them.
Me, I'm a fan of this one:
Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped for joy in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women and blessed is the child of your womb/ But why am I so favoured that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears; the baby in my womb leaped for joy!"
Now, one can say, oh well, Jesus in the womb is different, because He is Lord, so yeah, He's a special foetus. But Jesus became man, in all our fleshy weakness, enduring all the crap we have to put up with. None of us would be here if we had not been zygotes or embryos or foetuses, our time on earth would not exist if we had not existed once in the womb. Jesus wasn't just human on earth, he was human in the womb.
But John, in Elizabeth's womb? He was just a normal, everyday run of the mill foetus. She referred to foetal John as her baby, and expressed how he lept for joy! Such is the value of these children! Of all unborn children.
God can do whatever He wants. Jesus didn't have to be a foetus. But He was placed into our condition of flesh and blood and pain.
Isaiah 53:4
Surely, he hathe borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did see him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.
God is a God of life. There is life in the womb, whether you want to admit to it or not. With all that is in the bible on this subject, how anyone could come to the conclusion God would shun the most vulnerable of our human family is ridiculous.
Luke 18:16
Jesus however called the infants to Him. "Let the little children come to me", He said; "do not hinder them, for it is to those who are childlike that the Kingdom of God belongs".
Now while this is meant to be interepreted beyond the physical stages of age, rather a spiritual aspect, it also includes the unborn, as they too are children, "child" being defined as anyone under the age of 12, including those in the gestational period". [Mosby's Dictionary of Medicine for health care professions", 2007]
Of course, that's the bibical standpoint. I"m more inclined to debate from the medical and biological standpoint. The rest of my opinions as to why abortion is wrong, is based in the spiritual and defintely beyond the medium of this forum for such a discussion.
Who's talking about abortion? I'm talking about conscience! I was going to use Ted Bundy or Gacey or some other criminally minded mad man, but Hitler's conscience allowed him to slaughter over six million Jews. That's a pretty devoid conscience, but a conscience none the less, according to the ilk who support "following one's conscience".
It is through a full understanding of the bible and an understanding of context.
Thou shalt not murder, coupled with the many verses of human life in the womb, and the part of two men fighting, an eye for an eye, all these things point to God having a low opinion of those who have abortions.
And the whole "you are not yours" should also give huge warning to a person who is about to end a life that is not theirs to end, because it is in a body that is not really their's.
Explain.
I mean, really, Queen, come on, value is just something we attribute to people, it can be used for good or for bad, and when it is used for bad, it ends up pitting one human against another.
I mean, who has more value, the black child in Africa with HIV, no parents and no education, or the white man in America who's a neurosurgeon with 30 years experience, who does pro bono work and adopts disabled children from Russia?
Are you aware of the dangers of alloting values to people?
Frankly, I find the idea of a deity with no sack disgusting.
The God I worship will forgive you for anything, as long as you ask. That's not too much to ask, is it?
All things have consquences. To have a deity that cares not for such actions is morally repugnant. Same sissy princess deity would offer her arms to a murderer of [born] children. If nothing is wrong, then everything is right, including that which is immoral..
Then you might want to rephrase your sig line.

reply from: LexIcon

There are more than a few Muslims who reject the Hadiths as un-Islamic, seeing that Mohammad rejected such records in advance. The Qur'an, he insisted, was sufficient unto itself. It needed no "commentary" or historical grounding.
And what does the Qur'an say? See: http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes.Islam
The Talmud is complete and unadulterated bullshit, imo. Its relationship to the Tanakh in tenuous at best. It SHOULD be a cause of great embarassment to thinking Jews.

reply from: B0zo

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
Where does it say the Pope is?
It doesn't have to say.
The Bible is not the sole authority of Catholicism.

reply from: LexIcon

http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

reply from: EpicFailguy

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?

reply from: B0zo

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Not necessarily "right," and not completely wrong, but somewhat confused in your understanding of what Catholicism is.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Come on! Are you really going there? A bunch of quote mining on an anti Islamic website? Quote the passages from the Koran you feel make a point you wish to discuss, and I'll address them for you...

reply from: EpicFailguy

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
Where does it say the Pope is?
It doesn't have to say.
The Bible is not the sole authority of Catholicism.
The pope is, amirite?

reply from: Shenanigans

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Not necessarily "right," and not completely wrong, but somewhat confused in your understanding of what Catholicism is.
Ssssh, don't give him any clues, he's funnier when he's Plebing up the place.

reply from: LexIcon

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?

reply from: EpicFailguy

http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp
You missed that we were talking about what the Bible says? In proper context, one must assume the question was regarding where, in the bible, it says the pope is "the sole authority."

reply from: LexIcon

Come on! Are you really going there? A bunch of quote mining on an anti Islamic website? Quote the passages from the Koran you feel make a point you wish to discuss, and I'll address them for you...
Knowitall Idiot, the quotes at this "anti Islamic website" are taken directly from the Qur'an.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?
According to whom?
(Oh, and kudos for a response that is not just a link! Way to go!)

reply from: EpicFailguy

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Not necessarily "right," and not completely wrong, but somewhat confused in your understanding of what Catholicism is.
Ssssh, don't give him any clues, he's funnier when he's Plebing up the place.
Well, you certainly added a wealth of wisdom to the discussion there! Good for you!

reply from: LexIcon

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?
According to whom?
(Oh, and kudos for a response that is not just a link! Way to go!)
I'm asking YOU.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Come on! Are you really going there? A bunch of quote mining on an anti Islamic website? Quote the passages from the Koran you feel make a point you wish to discuss, and I'll address them for you...
Knowitall Idiot, the quotes at this "anti Islamic website" are taken direcdtly from the Qur'an.
Do you understand the term "quote mining," cuz I don't think you do... Yes, they are "taken directly from the Koran," which is part of the problem. They are taken out of context in such a way as to be deliberately misleading.
Once more, which do you feel are particularly damning, and I will prove my point.

reply from: Shenanigans

Well, I do try my hardest!

reply from: EpicFailguy

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?
According to whom?
(Oh, and kudos for a response that is not just a link! Way to go!)
I'm asking YOU.
A 5 dollar cover and two drink minimum then.

reply from: B0zo

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
Where does it say the Pope is?
It doesn't have to say.
The Bible is not the sole authority of Catholicism.
The pope is, amirite?
The pope cannot change any of the established dogma, including Holy Scriptures, which are already established, so he is does not have unlimited powers. The pope cannot usurp the authority which the scriptures have.
My point was that Catholicism is not sola scriptura as are the vast majority of non Catholic Christian churches.
If we are looking to an "authority" we most certainly will look at the Bible, but not the bible alone.

reply from: LexIcon

An ayat is an ayat. I take them at face value. If YOU want to be an apologist for Mohammad's psychotic reveries, then have at it!

reply from: B0zo

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?
To be God, be incarnated, and be crucified.
That's the price that was already paid.
All we have to do is get on the bus.

reply from: LexIcon

Covered. Answer the damn question, unless you really are a stinking sophist.

reply from: EpicFailguy

The pope has the last word on all interpretation, doesn't he?

reply from: QueenJ

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
How/Where else do you obtain the word of god?

reply from: LexIcon

This will do: Qur'an 33:57 "Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed."

reply from: LexIcon

Yes and no. http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

reply from: B0zo

Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the sole authority?
How/Where else do you obtain the word of god?
It says in the Bible that before Jesus ascended to Heaven he told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would "teach them all things." It also says in the Bible that Jesus said and did so many things, no amount of books could contain it all. Therefore it is clear from the Bible that the Apostles knew more things than were contained in the Bible, though we certainly see the Bible as the "Word of God."
We also believe in Apostolic Succssion--an unbroken lineage of Bishops starting with Peter and the other Apostles, who ordained Bishops who eventually replaced them, and they subsequently ordained Bishops--a process that has gone on until now and which will continue until the End, and in Oral Tradition, which has been passed down through the centuries.

reply from: LexIcon

How/Where else do you obtain the word of God?

reply from: LexIcon

Of course not! It clearly means you have to go before a priest and confess when you break the rules, which is a small price to pay to get to heaven, amirite?
Hmm...what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?
To be God, be incarnated, and be crucified.
That's the price that was already paid.
All we have to do is get on the bus.
Agreed! You've read C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce?"

reply from: B0zo

The only thing I have read by CS Lewis was "The Screwtape Letters" and a little of "Surprised by Joy."

reply from: EpicFailguy

An ayat is an ayat. I take them at face value. If YOU want to be an apologist for Mohammad's psychotic reveries, then have at it!
"At face value?" OK, here's a really common one from your source. It is quoted in order to imply that the Koran directs Muslims to kill all non-Muslims.
The very first verse in the chapter makes it clear that it speaks of people with whom you have a treaty, but who broke that treaty. It doesn't speak of all disbelievers as is dishonestly implied by the use of the partial quote taken out of context!
The Immunity
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
This is historically significant because Muhammad fled his home due to persecution at the hands of pagan Arabs. Those pagans were also enemies of the Jews, and an alliance was formed between the Muslims and Jews. The Jews betrayed the alliance and abandoned their allies in their time of need, having used them to serve their needs, then refusing to honor the agreement and return the favor.
The point is that the quotes, as presented, are intentionally misleading...

reply from: LexIcon

Getting on the bus is a "Great Divorce" metaphor. Check it out! Also, "The Space Trilogy."

reply from: EpicFailguy

This will do: Qur'an 33:57 "Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed."
So? The Bible says blasphemy is an unforgivable sin, right? I figured you would come up with something better than this! I don't understand how this could be considered a serious condemnation against Islam at all!

reply from: EpicFailguy

Yes and no. http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp
"Yes and no" then a link! Too funny!

reply from: EpicFailguy

We seem to be getting ever closer to the inevitable conclusion. In the end, it always comes down to where the theists basically assert "it just is."

reply from: Shenanigans

I've read Screwtape, very interesting.
But three people I know this week had made mention of the Great Divorce.

reply from: B0zo

The theist who is a Catholic does not need to say "it just is" regarding explaining Catholic Dogma.
You can believe it or not. That was not the point of this discussion. It was not a debate about whether God exists, but a disussion about whether Catholicism is "sola scriptura."
The point was not whether what we believe is objectively right, but in what we believe and why.

reply from: LexIcon

This will do: Qur'an 33:57 "Those who speak negatively of Allah and His Apostle shall be cursed."
So? The Bible says blasphemy is an unforgivable sin, right? I figured you would come up with something better than this! I don't understand how this could be considered a serious condemnation against Islam at all!
In my considered opinion, Mohammad was at best demon possessed, and the fact that I have so declared it here and now means that I am cursed, according to Mohammad's "perfect" revelation. It follows that any Muslim who would murder me for such a "blasphemy" againt Allah's apostle would be exonerated by any court of Islamic jurisprudence. That you DON'T see this is a measure of your blindness, imo.
Consider Theo van Gogh.

reply from: LexIcon

You still haven't answered the question...

reply from: lukesmom

http://www.catholicmissionleaflets.org/leafpope.htm

To understand the role of the Pope today, let us first examine the Biblical foundations and historical development of the papal ministry. From that basis, we will be able to explain the Pope's role in the government of the Church and his teaching office.
1. Biblical
a. The Twelve Apostles:
At the beginning of his public life, Jesus Christ chose twelve men as his Apostles. He gave them the mission to proclaim the Kingdom of God and to heal (Lk. 9:2). They were the foundation of His Church
The Church is apostolic in a triple sense: She was built and remains on the foundation of the Apostles (Eph 2:20; Acts 21:14) the witnesses chosen and sent by Christ;. Secondly, she preserves and transmits the teaching of the Apostles and finally she continues to be taught, sanctified and directed by the Apostles, until the return of Christ, through the ministry of bishops, those who succeeded the Apostles in their pastoral responsibility.
The role of the Apostles as the witnesses of the Resurrection of Jesus and the foundation of His Church is unique and is not transmitted. However, Jesus promised to be with His Church until the end of time (Mt 28:20). The spread of the Gospel until the end of time was the divine mission entrusted to the Church. To ensure the faithful transmission of the apostolic witness, the Apostles instituted successors. These successors, the order of bishops, are the continuing presence of the pastoral ministry of the Apostles in the Church.
b. Peter:
Among the Twelve Apostles, Simon Peter holds the first place. Among the disciples of Christ, Peter is given the greatest prominence in the New Testament accounts of the Church's origins. Jesus gave to Peter a unique mission. Based on a revelation of God to Peter, Peter proclaimed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus then declared that Simon was Peter, the "Rock", and on this rock Jesus would build His Church which would prevail over the powers of Hell (Mt. 16:18). Peter received the mission to guard the integrity and purity of the faith in Jesus Christ, and to strengthen his brothers and sisters in that faith.
The authority conferred by Jesus on Peter is known as the "power of the keys" (Mt. 16:19). The government of the Church - that is, authority to absolve sins, to make doctrinal judgements and to make disciplinary decisions - was given to the Apostles in general. Peter alone was given the "power of the keys". Jesus also gave to Peter a specific pastoral ministry - "feed my sheep" (Jn 21:15-17). Thus, Peter was given a unique responsibility in church government and in pastoral ministry.
2. Dogmatic Development
a. Bishops:
Jesus Christ, in calling the Twelve, gave them the form of a "college", that is a stable group, and chose Peter from among them as their head. Just as Peter and the other Apostles form, by Christ's initiative, one apostolic college, so the Pope, as successor of Peter and Bishop of Rome, and the other bishops form one episcopal college. The pastoral ministry of Peter and the other Apostles is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
b. Pope:
By virtue of his wide-ranging ministry evident in the New Testament and preserved in tradition, Peter is considered to be pastor of the Universal Church. History reveals that the single most notable representative of this ministry of Peter toward the Universal Church has been the Bishop of Rome, the city whose church was founded by Peter and where Peter and Paul are buried. The Pope, as Bishop of Rome and successor of Peter, is the visible and perpetual foundation of unity among the bishops and among Christ's faithful. The Bishop of Rome has, by virtue of his role as the Vicar of Christ and as Pastor of the entire Church, a full, supreme and universal authority. The college of bishops, when united to the Pope, has a similar authority.
3. Church Government and Papal Primacy
The beginning of the Church was a unique and creative act of Christ. The Church was and is both a spiritual and visible society, a communion of persons, which needs constant guidance to realize its mission. Thus, Christ perceived the need that someone should govern, have a primacy over, His Church. Therefore, He conferred that authority on Peter. As the Church was to endure through time until the return of Jesus, that authority or office conferred on Peter necessarily provided for succession. In fact, there has been an unbroken succession of popes from Peter to Benedict XV1, the 265th successor.
The primacy of the Pope, the recognition that he is the universal Pastor with full authority over the entire Church, preserves the oneness of the church by being a sign of unity, and by being a centre of communication, correction and assistance in the Church's mission. The Pope's primacy is one of service, in service of unity.
4. Teaching Office
a. Nature:
In order to maintain the Church in the purity of the faith transmitted by the Apostles, Jesus conferred on Her a participation in His own infallibility. "Infallibility" means "immunity from error". It is a gift of the Holy Spirit which protects the Church from error when the Church solemnly defines a matter of faith or morals.
By a supernatural sense of the faith, the People of God under the leadership of the living Magisterium (the teaching office of the bishops) attach themselves indefectibly to the apostolic faith. The pastoral ministry of the Magisterium is ordered, therefore, to safeguard the People of God in the truth. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it.
b. Infallibility:
To fulfil the teaching office of their pastoral ministry, the Apostles and their successors, the bishops, are given a gift of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The Pope, as head of the college of bishops, enjoys this gift of infallibility in a unique sense. As pastor and supreme teacher of all the faithful, and charged with the responsibility to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith, the Pope may proclaim as definitive a point of doctrine touching faith and morals.
When the Church, by her Magisterium, proposes something to be believed as being revealed by God in Jesus Christ, a Catholic is obliged to adhere to the definition with the obedience of faith. When the Magisterium proposes something not in a definitive way but so as to help the faithful in a better understanding of God's Revelation, a Catholic is obliged to give to such teaching the religious assent of his spirit.
It is, therefore, the Pope's role, as it was that of Peter, to guide the community of Christ's faithful, to safeguard them in the truth, and to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith made possible in Jesus Christ.
Fr. Kevin Beach



reply from: LexIcon

The very first verse in the chapter makes it clear that it speaks of people with whom you have a treaty, but who broke that treaty. It doesn't speak of all disbelievers as is dishonestly implied by the use of the partial quote taken out of context!
The Immunity
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
This is historically significant because Muhammad fled his home due to persecution at the hands of pagan Arabs. Those pagans were also enemies of the Jews, and an alliance was formed between the Muslims and Jews. The Jews betrayed the alliance and abandoned their allies in their time of need, having used them to serve their needs, then refusing to honor the agreement and return the favor.
The point is that the quotes, as presented, are intentionally misleading...
Do you care to know what Mohammad did to those Jews who betrayed him?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

reply from: EpicFailguy

The Koran says you're cursed, but that doesn't mean any Muslim is allowed to kill you. Don't confuse national laws with religious doctrine. It certainly doesn't logically "follow" from anything in the Koran that it condones Muslims killing you. "Cursed" just means you're going to hell.
They think you're going to hell, and you think they are. You both think I am. Your religions bear striking similarities, but the Bible says Idolaters are to be put to death just because they're idolaters. The Koran justifies killing only against an "aggressor" (in other words, only in self defense).
Granted, there are Islamic nations with some pretty barbaric laws, but most Muslims condemn the kind of thing you might cite as examples. They are politically based more so than religious, and require pretty creative interpretations of the religion to swallow.

reply from: LexIcon

The Koran says you're cursed, but that doesn't mean any Muslim is allowed to kill you. Don't confuse national laws with religious doctrine. It certainly doesn't logically "follow" from anything in the Koran that it condones Muslims killing you. "Cursed" just means you're going to hell.
They think you're going to hell, and you think they are. You both think I am. Your religions bear striking similarities, but the Bible says Idolaters are to be put to death just because they're idolaters. The Koran justifies killing only against an "aggressor" (in other words, only in self defense).
Granted, there are Islamic nations with some pretty barbaric laws, but most Muslims condemn the kind of thing you might cite as examples. They are politically based more so than religious, and require pretty creative interpretations of the religion to swallow.
You presume much. I don't think that Muslims are going to hell on account of their being Muslims. Nor do I think that you are going to hell for whatever the hell reasons you think that I think that you would be going to hell. What I DO believe is that we all answer to a God who rewards us with what we have chosen.

reply from: EpicFailguy

The very first verse in the chapter makes it clear that it speaks of people with whom you have a treaty, but who broke that treaty. It doesn't speak of all disbelievers as is dishonestly implied by the use of the partial quote taken out of context!
The Immunity
[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
This is historically significant because Muhammad fled his home due to persecution at the hands of pagan Arabs. Those pagans were also enemies of the Jews, and an alliance was formed between the Muslims and Jews. The Jews betrayed the alliance and abandoned their allies in their time of need, having used them to serve their needs, then refusing to honor the agreement and return the favor.
The point is that the quotes, as presented, are intentionally misleading...
Do you care to know what Mohammad did to those Jews who betrayed him?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
He didn't kill their wives and defenseless children like Christians and Jews were accustomed to do in many cases. Your problem is lack of objectivity. If Muslims beheaded their enemies, you say omg, how barbaric, but when Jews and Christians executed even innocent children, you rationalize that.
I have no dog in this fight, and from my objective view, the Muslims most often come out being the more ethical. Even the Pagans knew that if they were attacked by Judeo Christians, there could be no surrender. No mercy would be shown. But if it was Muslims, you could surrender and be shown mercy. This is partly why Muslims ruled Palestine for so long according to history.

reply from: EpicFailguy

You're playing a semantic game here for sure!

reply from: LexIcon

Qur'an:8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"

reply from: LexIcon

You're playing a semantic game here for sure!
Are you calling me a liar?

reply from: EpicFailguy

Qur'an:8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: 'Wipe the infidels out to the last.'"
Which version are you quoting? Or is this from one of your websites? I ask because I'm using a different translation.
At any rate, in the proper context, it is understood that the passage speaks of an enemy in wartime, an agressor, not all infidels."
The Accessions
In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[8.1] They ask you about the windfalls. Say: The windfalls are for Allah and the Apostle. So be careful of (your duty to) Allah and set aright matters of your difference, and obey Allah and His Apostle if you are believers.
[8.2] Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do they trust.
[8.3] Those who keep up prayer and spend (benevolently) out of what We have given them.
[8.4] These are the believers in truth; they shall have from their Lord exalted grades and forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.
[8.5] Even as your Lord caused you to go forth from your house with the truth, though a party of the believers were surely averse;
[8.6] They disputed with you about the truth after it had become clear, (and they went forth) as if they were being driven to death while they saw (it).
[8.7] And when.Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.
[8.8] That He may manifest the truth of what was true and show the falsehood of what was false, though the guilty disliked.
[8.9] When you sought aid from your Lord, so He answered you: I will assist you with a thousand of the angels following one another.
[8.10] And Allah only gave it as a good news and that your hearts might be at ease thereby; and victory is only from Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[8.11] When He caused calm to fall on you as a security from Him and sent down upon you water from the cloud that He might thereby purify you, and take away from you the uncleanness of the Shaitan, and that He might fortify your hearts and steady (your) footsteps thereby.
[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
[8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
[8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
[8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=267454

So, was there a point you wanted to make?

reply from: LexIcon

No, Mohammad didn't kill the women and chidren; he made slaves out of them, and the prettier women he kept for himself.
Muslims beheaded their enemies at the order of Allah's Apostle. Christians could NEVER pull such a stunt, considering the command that Jesus gave to his disciples, that they were to imitate his example of humble and self sacrificial service. That the Church mustered armies was a grave error, imo.

reply from: EpicFailguy

You're playing a semantic game here for sure!
Are you calling me a liar?
If I were, it would be quite clear to you. You are, however, free to draw whatever logical inferences you choose.

reply from: LexIcon

[8.7] And when.Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.
So, was there a point you wanted to make?
Hmm... to "wipe the infidels out to the last" is somehow not the same as "to cut off the root of the unbelievers."
Is there a point that you wanted to make?

reply from: QueenJ

If, you and I are both on the same page that "fornication" is sex between two unmarried persons.
But yes, fornication is a mortal sin.
And if you commit a mortal sin, you automatically go to hell?
And that's certainly in your right to do so. Of course, all actions have consequences.
I'll accept any and all consequences of being pro-choice/(insert all of my other beliefs).
So, if you walked into a childrens' hospital and mowed everyone down with a machine gun, but claimed to be "saved", does that mean you'll get into Heaven?
I don't know, but I do know that if I walked into a children's hospital, mowed everyone down with a machine gun, and then repented and asked for god's forgiveness, I would go to heaven. Where's the logic in that? I can commit any and all unthinkable, savage acts and then ask for forgiveness and go to heaven, but if I'm (for instance) Jewish, go to church my whole life, never harm another, tithe, donate time and money to worthy causes, etc. and I go to hell ... no logic/fairness/justice whatsoever.

I don't find much, if any, logic in the christian faith.

Sure it does. As long as you take the two minutes out of your miserable life to utter the words, "forgive me for sinning Jesus; you are the way, the truth, and the light; I believe that you died on the cross to save us; you are the one and only true savior, etc. (apologies, my save me lingo is a bit rusty)" and then stop doing bad things and you're golden. I could be a sexual psychopathic serial killer/rapist (a la Ted Bundy) and rape/torture/kill/rape again/mutilate X amount of women, go to jail for X amount of years, and if in the two minutes before they flip the switch to send the current of electricity through my body that will kill me I say the above-mentioned words, I GET TO GO TO HEAVEN. WTF?

But there's no prerequisite for the amount of time that you have to devote your life to and surrender everything unto god before you're saved. As I said above, I could spend my ENTIRE life committing the most atrocious acts known to mankind, and if in the last two minutes of my life I surrender my life, mind, soul, and will to Jesus Christ, I walk with him and in his footsteps, live the life Christ wants me to live for two minutes, I GET TO GO TO HEAVEN. Again, WTF?
To quote Monty (from 25th Hour):
"Fu*k the priests who put their hands down some innocent child's pants. Fu*k the church that protects them, delivering us into evil. And while you're at it, fu*k JC! He got off easy! A day on the cross, a weekend in hell, and all the hallelujahs of the legioned angels for eternity! Try seven years in fu*kin' Otisville, Jay!"
There have been an infinite number of people who have suffered fates far worse than Jesus and they don't get sh!t for their sacrifices.
We'll have to agree to disagree on these points.
But he will (i.e. the situation I've referenced above).

With all due respect and absolutely no offense meant, but that is royally fu*ked up.
How do you know?
This is not abortion. This is causing a woman to go into premature labor.
Again, that is royally f'ed up in more ways than one.
Oh, I have no doubt that god doesn't want me having sex out of wedlock. I just don't understand the why of it. Also, if my earthly father were that interested in my sexual proclivities, I'd be (rightly) weirded out.
Did the writers of the bible not ever make use of hyperbole?
I don't deny there is life inside the womb.

He has shunned and still shuns the most vulnerable of people. One of the most glaring examples of this for me is the Holocaust. Six million plus people suffered unimaginable torture and death and what do they get after suffering these horrific injustices? A trip to hell.
This is where I'm going to have to excuse myself from replying to your comment. I may or may not get back to you on the rest.

reply from: LexIcon

Hmm... to "wipe the infidels out to the last" is somehow not the same as "to cut off the root of the unbelievers."
Is there a point that you wanted to make?

reply from: EpicFailguy

No, Mohammad didn't kill the women and chidren; he made slaves out of them, and the prettier women he kept for himself.
Muslims beheaded their enemies at the order of Allah's Apostle. Christians could NEVER pull such a stunt, considering the command that Jesus gave to his disciples, that they were to imitate his example of humble and self sacrificial service. That the Church mustered armies was a grave error, imo.
Why did the disciples carry swords then?
FYI, beheading was quite common in that time. It wasn't a strictly Muslim phenomenon. The Bible clearly speaks of people (even including innocent children) being put to the sword, allegedly at the behest of God. Executions were most often performed by beheading.

reply from: QueenJ

How/Where else do you obtain the word of God?
Say what?

reply from: LexIcon

You still haven't answered my question, so I will logically infer that you either have no answer, or would rather not provide it.

reply from: LexIcon

How/Where else do you obtain the word of God?
Say what?
Honestly. How does God speak to you, if at all.

reply from: QueenJ

How/Where else do you obtain the word of God?
Say what?
Honestly. How does God speak to you, if at all.
I have absolutely no clue, hence my question.

reply from: LexIcon

No, Mohammad didn't kill the women and chidren; he made slaves out of them, and the prettier women he kept for himself.
Muslims beheaded their enemies at the order of Allah's Apostle. Christians could NEVER pull such a stunt, considering the command that Jesus gave to his disciples, that they were to imitate his example of humble and self sacrificial service. That the Church mustered armies was a grave error, imo.
Why did the disciples carry swords then?
FYI, beheading was quite common in that time. It wasn't a strictly Muslim phenomenon. The Bible clearly speaks of people (even including innocent children) being put to the sword, allegedly at the behest of God. Executions were most often performed by beheading.
Please provide proof texts about disciples carrying swords, please, and of any directive in the New Testament for the disciples to behead enemies of the Church.

reply from: LexIcon

How/Where else do you obtain the word of God?
Say what?
Honestly. How does God speak to you, if at all.
I have absolutely no clue, hence my question.
You have no clue about how God speaks to you? Hazard a guess, if you will.

reply from: B0zo

Do you know of the first case ever happening?
Do you think people who do these things immediately repent and ask for forgiveness? Like they've got it all planned out...hmmm...I think I'll go out and kill a bunch of kids and then ask God to forgive me. That way I get to have some fun and still go to Heaven...
And who says the Jewish person would go to Hell?

reply from: EpicFailguy

[8.7] And when.Allah promised you one of the two parties that it shall be yours and you loved that the one not armed should he yours and Allah desired to manifest the truth of what was true by His words and to cut off the root of the unbelievers.
So, was there a point you wanted to make?
Hmm... to "wipe the infidels out to the last" is somehow not the same as "to cut off the root of the unbelievers."
Is there a point that you wanted to make?
I made it. The "infidels" to be killed in this passage were not killed because they were infidels. They were aggressors with whom the Muslims were at war.
I also linked you to the source so you could read the rest in context. It goes on to say:
[8.38] Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
[8.40] And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.
Clearly, it doesn't say to simply slaughter those people! It speaks of fighting against an aggressor who attacked first, and demands mercy if they "desist!"

reply from: LexIcon

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap." Galatians 6:7

reply from: EpicFailguy

You still haven't answered my question, so I will logically infer that you either have no answer, or would rather not provide it.
You need me to say that I did not call you a liar? Surely you can read my responses for yourself?

reply from: LexIcon

Hmm..."Say to those who disbelieve." That would be me. "and religion should be only for Allah." Too bad I remain convinced that Mohammad's "Allah" was none other than the devil in disguise, so I don't need "the Helper" and his most excellent megalomaniacal pronouncements. His lackeys will just have to behead me for my "infidelity."

reply from: EpicFailguy

No, Mohammad didn't kill the women and chidren; he made slaves out of them, and the prettier women he kept for himself.
Muslims beheaded their enemies at the order of Allah's Apostle. Christians could NEVER pull such a stunt, considering the command that Jesus gave to his disciples, that they were to imitate his example of humble and self sacrificial service. That the Church mustered armies was a grave error, imo.
Why did the disciples carry swords then?
FYI, beheading was quite common in that time. It wasn't a strictly Muslim phenomenon. The Bible clearly speaks of people (even including innocent children) being put to the sword, allegedly at the behest of God. Executions were most often performed by beheading.
Please provide proof texts about disciples carrying swords, please, and of any directive in the New Testament for the disciples to behead enemies of the Church.
First of all, I didn't say there was any "directive in the New Testament for the disciples to behead enemies of the Church." I said beheading was a common means of execution that was not practiced only by Muslims. The Bible speaks of offenses that were punishable by death, and some executions were to be by stoning. Others were not. The Bible doesn't give all the details, but the same people who wrote the OT expounded in the Talmud, and Idolaters, it is said, were executed by beheading. Stoning was generally the means of executing fellow Jews, beheading in the case of gentiles.
As for the disciples carrying swords, I'm surprised that you would demand proof! I assumed that, as a Christian, you would be familiar with Matthew 26, the gospels being so important to your faith...

reply from: LexIcon

I asked, "what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?"

reply from: QueenJ

I. Don't. Know.
Does he just appear before you and start yakking? Does he temporarily take over the body of another human and/or morph into human form and speak to you that way? Does he come to you in your dreams? Does he tap into your brain and speak to you on his own, personal, psychic wavelength? Does he speak to certain humans, who then relay his message to you? Does he give certain people artistic ability, who then share the word of god by way of paintings, film, and literature? Does he call you up on your phone? Does he commandeer your television in the middle of your weekly viewing of Desperate Housewives?
Also, I pity the fools who have to suffer through your version of bearing witness because you SUCK at it.

reply from: QueenJ

I thought god will forgive you of anything, so long as you repent and ask for forgiveness. Is this incorrect?
I don't know any mass murderers or serial killers personally, no.
They don't believe in Jesus. In order to get into heaven, you have to say that you believe that Jesus died on the cross to provide you salvation. If you don't believe in Jesus, how can you believe he did anything?

reply from: EpicFailguy

Go back and read the text I linked you to. (And I assure you you the "unbelievers" referred to are not you, lol)
I even posted the part where it says "if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them." "If they desist" doesn't mean stop being an unbeliever, Lex, it means "desist" from the aggression! You can't possibly be dense enough not to get this!

reply from: Shenanigans

If you die without having repented, then in all likelihood, yeah.
Mortal sins are also known as "grave" sins, as in they place your soul in grave danger of damnation.
Good luck with that.
You have arrived at the wrong conclusion.
If you are truly saved, then you would not mow down a hospital full of children.
If you commit a public sin you must repent publically. So, if you were truly sorry of killing all the cancer kids, then you would publically take whatever punishment the civil authorities would dole out to you.
Part of being sorry is taking responsibility. "Forgive me Jesus'" isn't just a phrase.
Yes, if you were truly sorry, your soul would be clear of that act. BUT you must take responsibility for it.
As for the Jewish people they are under a different covenant with God, their damnation is determined on their actions, not on whether they accept Jesus.
As for people who do "good" things and dont' "harm" anyone. I am not God, it is not my place to dole out judgement on them. Maybe they are going to Hell, maybe we do have to accept Jesus and that's the only way to get into Heaven. I'm of the mind that good works can also assist in making ones path to heaven more assured.
But if it isn't, if accepting Jesus is the only way to go, well, stink for those who don't. But God's the one in charge here. If you were God, you could make whatever rules you wanted.
You are aware, are you not, that God being God can see the deepest intentions of our hearts and is able to judge the sincerity of such?
If the rapist et al, is truly sorry for his actions, then yeah, he is forgiven.
This isn't sickening, its simply an example of God's great love. Even during death on the cross next to Jesus, the thief/murderer was truly sorrow, and was accepted into Heaven.
You dont' have to like it, and too bad if you don't. You're not God. When you are God, you can make whatever rules you like, okay?
Yes. Bingo.
Its an expression of God's great love, how much He is willing to forgive our sins, even the most grievous.
If you can't fathom that, well, your loss, I suppose.
You know, there are more paedophiles in the teachign profession than in the priesthood. So, you better be sure no one goes to school and has a male teacher.
Actually, you know what teacher paedophiles and priest paedophiles all have in common? They're men.
Maybe we should just damn all men.
They didn't die for all of man kind's sin.
Good luck with that.
You support the right of a woman to kill her unborn child at any stage for any reason. I don't expect you to understand that some people respect all human life, and that the Catholic church impresses upon its members that in such a circumstance all efforts be made to save both woman and child. Its directly killing the child that is an affront.
Ah, but that's the crux, it doesn't have to mention abortion, its mentioning the value of the unborn child.
Thus, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots and realise that killing the unborn child, when its value has been established as a member of society, is gravely disordered.
Again, when you're God, you can make the rules.
God is interested in your sex life because He doesn't want you getting hurt. He wants you to respect the gift He has given you. He wants you to enjoy sex, but in the proper context in which it was designed for, marriage.
You just believe it can be killed for any petty reason the woman can conger.
We suffer because of the choices of others. Not because of God's lack of intervention.
God gave us free will.
You can use it for good, or for evil.
Hitler used his free will for evil.
Had God interfered, He would have interefered with Hitler's free will. Not to mention, it would tamper with our ability to choose Him freely. God doesn't want us choosing Him under duress.
If you were walking down the street and a big volcano popped up and lava came your way, and just before you were about to be BBQ'd God put His nicely pedicured foot down and stopped the flow. Would you still say "You're a douche, God, I don't care what you say! I'm not going to worship you".
No, you wouldn't say that. Unless you were a complete and utter moron.
God's obvious intervention would void our need for faith.
Heh, I don't mind. I don't take things personally. What's important, is you've read it, and you can't un-read it.

reply from: EpicFailguy

I asked, "what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?"
And what did you want me to say? I can tell you what the Bible says on the subject, but I do not claim to have personal knowledge on the subject!

reply from: LexIcon

I'm not a Jew under the Mosaic Covenant. Those bound by that Covenant were indeed ordered to punish certain offenses with death, and if such folk want to consider themselves bound as well by the Talmud, then that's their business. It has no force in my life.
As for the sword business, http://www.loveyourenemies.org/sword.html

reply from: LexIcon

I. Don't. Know.
Does he just appear before you and start yakking? Does he temporarily take over the body of another human and/or morph into human form and speak to you that way? Does he come to you in your dreams? Does he tap into your brain and speak to you on his own, personal, psychic wavelength? Does he speak to certain humans, who then relay his message to you? Does he give certain people artistic ability, who then share the word of god by way of paintings, film, and literature? Does he call you up on your phone? Does he commandeer your television in the middle of your weekly viewing of Desperate Housewives?
Also, I pity the fools who have to suffer through your version of bearing witness because you SUCK at it.
Thanks for the answer. It shows real thought.

reply from: LexIcon

I asked, "what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?"
And what did you want me to say? I can tell you what the Bible says on the subject, but I do not claim to have personal knowledge on the subject!
Thanks for the answer. It shows real thought.

reply from: QueenJ

I do sincerely appreciate you responding to me seriously and directly and with maturity. You don't see a lot of that on here or anywhere else on the internet, as a matter of fact.

reply from: QueenJ

I was being serious. God has never spoken to me, even when I was a good, little christian. So, how would I know how he speaks to his followers? And I hear that god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, so I wouldn't put it past him to do any of the above mentioned as a means to speak to his followers.
Again, you SUCK hardcore at this bearing witness thing. Why not just answer a person's questions instead of answering questions with questions?

reply from: B0zo

I do sincerely appreciate you responding to me seriously and directly and with maturity. You don't see a lot of that on here or anywhere else on the internet, as a matter of fact.
Hey, what about ME?
I'm even more seriously and directly than she is. And way more mature.
And she doesn't even know any "knock knock" jokes.

reply from: Shenanigans

I do sincerely appreciate you responding to me seriously and directly and with maturity. You don't see a lot of that on here or anywhere else on the internet, as a matter of fact.
Right back at yah.

reply from: Shenanigans

He's right, you know, on both counts.
And my jokes get me warnings and bannings on most forums. >:^)

reply from: QueenJ

I do sincerely appreciate you responding to me seriously and directly and with maturity. You don't see a lot of that on here or anywhere else on the internet, as a matter of fact.
Hey, what about ME?
I'm even more seriously and directly than she is. And way more mature.
And she doesn't even know any "knock knock" jokes.
Hey B0zo ... knock, knock.

reply from: B0zo

He's right, you know, on both counts.
And my jokes get me warnings and bannings on most forums. >:^)
What is your very best "yo mama" joke? Just ONE please.

reply from: B0zo

I do sincerely appreciate you responding to me seriously and directly and with maturity. You don't see a lot of that on here or anywhere else on the internet, as a matter of fact.
Hey, what about ME?
I'm even more seriously and directly than she is. And way more mature.
And she doesn't even know any "knock knock" jokes.
Hey B0zo ... knock, knock.
Who's there?

reply from: B0zo

Falafel.
falafel who

reply from: lukesmom

God has never spoken to me, even when I was a good, little christian. So, how would I know how he speaks to his followers? And I hear that god is all-powerful, all-knowing, and can do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, so I wouldn't put it past him to do any of the above mentioned as a means to speak to his followers.
Could it be that He did and you just weren't open to listening? Happens all the time. What happened that made you loose your faith? Why have you become so bitter?

reply from: QueenJ

Falafel.
falafel who
Falafel off his bike and hurt his knee!

reply from: B0zo

Falafel.
falafel who
Falafel off his bike and hurt his knee!
LOL
Do you know about the "Butch and Jimmy" one, and the one about "banana"?

reply from: QueenJ

Yes, sir, I do. I caught the "Butch and Jimmy" one when you told it in that other thread and the banana I either learned in grade school or from a Laffy Taffy wrapper.

reply from: B0zo

God has never spoken to me in words.
And I especially never heard him speaking to me when I was a good boy.
But I sure as heck have heard my conscience speak to me when I've done wrong, and that's not something I put there.
And I have had times when I experienced a profound peace, that I could not have manufactured of my own will.

reply from: B0zo

Yes, sir, I do. I caught the "Butch and Jimmy" one when you told it in that other thread and the banana I either learned in grade school or from a Laffy Taffy wrapper.
My father told me the first one when I was around 6, so that means that joke is at least 200 years old. The other one is probably only around 50 years old, but what is "Laffy Taffy"? Is that like Bomono Turkish Taffy?

reply from: EpicFailguy

I'm not a Jew under the Mosaic Covenant. Those bound by that Covenant were indeed ordered to punish certain offenses with death, and if such folk want to consider themselves bound as well by the Talmud, then that's their business. It has no force in my life.
As for the sword business, http://www.loveyourenemies.org/sword.html
So, the OT doesn't apply to you? Is it "the word of God?" I thought Jesus said the commandments still have to be followed? Aren't they from the OT, and doesn't that seem to indicate that Jesus viewed the OT as valid and relevant?
Do you understand that Jesus and his followers were Jews?

reply from: EpicFailguy

I asked, "what do you suppose IS the price to get to heaven?"
And what did you want me to say? I can tell you what the Bible says on the subject, but I do not claim to have personal knowledge on the subject!
Thanks for the answer. It shows real thought.
I could've just posted a link, amirite?

reply from: EpicFailguy

God has never spoken to me in words.
And I especially never heard him speaking to me when I was a good boy.
But I sure as heck have heard my conscience speak to me when I've done wrong, and that's not something I put there.
And I have had times when I experienced a profound peace, that I could not have manufactured of my own will.
If we can't explain it, it must be God! I get it now!

reply from: B0zo

God has never spoken to me in words.
And I especially never heard him speaking to me when I was a good boy.
But I sure as heck have heard my conscience speak to me when I've done wrong, and that's not something I put there.
And I have had times when I experienced a profound peace, that I could not have manufactured of my own will.
If we can't explain it, it must be God! I get it now!
You don't discuss things in good faith do you?
And if you would look at the context of my comments, they were not meant to prove anything but to share an experience.

reply from: QueenJ

I don't think so. You wouldn't know it now, but back in the day, I was all about Christianity and Jesus. Sometimes when I got scared at night, I would sleep with my bible (which was a Precious Moments one, by the way). I was even in the boy/girl scout-esque group at my friend's church ("Sparks" or "Wildfire" or something along those lines). Went to meetings every week (or however many times they had them), never missed one. Memorized a whole bunch of scripture. Prayed, prayed, prayed. Never took the Lord's name in vain. Always wore the cross my mother gave me around my neck. I was in a weekly bible study group for girls when I was in my early teens. I was baptized around 10ish in front of the massive congregation at my family's church (Beaverton (OR, USA) Foursquare). I went to church every Sunday for years (literally from infancy - My mom tells me I once gracefully threw up all over her and the pew during a service when I was a wee bebe - until around 17 or 18 years) and periodically on Sunday and Wednesday nights. And so on and so forth.
Eventually I came to the realization that Christianity and Christianity's representation of a supreme being didn't make sense to me.
How have I come across as bitter? I mean, I suppose I could be. I wasted so much time and effort and life on Christianity. I've also seen (and become aware of) my family (everyone of them devout Christians, except me and my two brothers) go through some seriously horrific suffering. That saying about god never giving you more than you can handle? Not true.

reply from: QueenJ

You don't know what Laffy Taffy is??!!!?? How have you survived life without Laffy Taffy?
Laffy Taffy is a brand of taffy manufactured by Nestlé and sold under their Willy Wonka Candy Company brand. Laffy Taffy is a brand of candy first produced in the 1970's. The candies are small (about 1.5 oz or 45 g) individually wrapped taffy available in a variety of fruit flavors, as well as a chocolate mousse flavor. In 2003, Wonka introduced a variety called "Flavor Flippers", a piece of taffy that had a soft center with a different flavor.
The name refers to both the texture of the taffy as well as its embodiment of silliness; the outside of each wrapper has at least one joke. For example: "What do you call a cow with no legs? -- Ground Beef." Some jokes are pun-based, such as "What is Labor Day? -- That's when mommies have their babies." Other jokes are based on silly wordplay, such as "What's an owl's favorite subject? -- Owlgebra." These jokes are usually sent in by children who are credited on the wrapper. Laffy Taffy used to come in thick, square shaped pieces, but today, it is sold in thinner, rectangular shaped pieces. The taffy is also made with artificial flavoring. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffy_Taffy)
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=laffy%20taffy&cts=1269152632681&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

reply from: Shenanigans

Honestly, I don't think you come across as bitter. You're just passionate about what you believe. I tend to think you're a young lass, maybe early twenties? So you have the youth factor on your side. (Or at least the appearance of youth). And youngin's are always a bit fiesty.

reply from: B0zo

Maybe if I hadn't already known you for what...close to 20 years on other boards...I might have thought you were a little bitter, but I know that you are a kind-hearted and sensitive soul (no offense intended with the word "soul," btw).
Did you stop believing because you saw horrific suffering which you think exceeded what the person could handle, and therefore the God which you were taught existed must be a farce?

reply from: B0zo

Could I find Laffy Taffy at Wal-Mart?

reply from: EpicFailguy

Let's test your ages. Who has eaten (or even heard of) "Black Jacks?"

reply from: B0zo

Not me. I've never know that to be anything but poker game.
Who remembers milk cartons in school that had a round perferation that could be punched out and a straw inserted? Or when sandwiches were wrapped in wax paper?
Who know what is "a silly millimeter longer"?
Who watched tv when NBC stood for "Nothing But Cowboys"?
I hate being old...

reply from: EpicFailguy

Paladin was a great show back in the days of rabbit ears and a few snowy channels.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Have gun, will travel...

reply from: Shenanigans

My 16 year old half sister made me feel old when she called the Nintendo 64 "totally old skool".
She doesn't even know what an Atari is. o_O

reply from: B0zo

My favorite programs of all time:
Outer Limits
Twilight Zone
Combat
Gallant Men
Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea
Lost in Space
This really dates me because I saw them when they were current--not reruns.
I even saw the Ed Sullivan show live with the Beatles first US performance.

reply from: B0zo

Never heard of that one.

reply from: EpicFailguy

That would put us in the same ball park, believe it or not. I realize I'm assumed to be much younger by many based on my "playful" nature on the internet, but I can be serious when it's warranted. I just don't take the internet as seriously as some seem to.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Kukla, Fran, and Ollie?

reply from: EpicFailguy

A little later, "Branded?"
I'm betting you've seen Paladin. I think the name of the show might have been "have gun, will travel." We called it "Paladin" because that was the hero's name.

reply from: B0zo

I'm betting you must be pushing 60.
You are talking about programs that my older brother mentioned, and he's 63.
You must have seen Bozo the Clown on tv.
I chose him as an avatar, but I think I saw later versions. You must also be familiar with Howdy Doodie.
I bet you even saw the program when Soupy Sales told everyone to take money from their parents' rooms and send it to him.

reply from: EpicFailguy

I'll never see 60 again.
I actually didn't watch much TV as a kid. I had more important things to do. We didn't have a TV, but everybody used to go to the home of the only family in town who did when we got the chance. When it first started, there were only a few shows, and all you could get was snow for most of the day. There was only a broadcasting station in some big cities, and they only broadcast a few hours a day tops in the beginning, then advertising started catching on with mostly companies that made soap, which is where we got the term "soap opera" because they sponsored them.
You probably remember TV stations "signing off" at night, amirite?

reply from: LexIcon

I'm not a Jew under the Mosaic Covenant. Those bound by that Covenant were indeed ordered to punish certain offenses with death, and if such folk want to consider themselves bound as well by the Talmud, then that's their business. It has no force in my life.
As for the sword business, http://www.loveyourenemies.org/sword.html
So, the OT doesn't apply to you? Is it "the word of God?" I thought Jesus said the commandments still have to be followed? Aren't they from the OT, and doesn't that seem to indicate that Jesus viewed the OT as valid and relevant?
Do you understand that Jesus and his followers were Jews?
My understanding is that Jesus -the word of God assuming humanity in the form of a Jewish male- obeyed the commandments perfectly, and in so doing fulfilled them. Only in this way could a New Covenant in his blood be instituted, which would be the foundation of the Church and its Sacraments, and the source of eternal life in him, since he rose from the dead.
Why then was the Law of Moses given? Because the Jews demanded it, on the one hand, and to prepare the world to receive the Savior, the one who would obey it perfectly, on the other.

reply from: LexIcon

Allow me to suggest that God has never stopped speaking to you.
Not necessarily. We answer to God for what we have been given to understand.
Yes. http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
Have you never wondered that the reason why God would choose to make such an entrance into human beingness as incarnating in Mary's womb was, among other reasons, to provide an object lesson to a culture that sees elective abortion not just as a solution, but as a God-given freedom?
If you die in a state of mortal sin, you go to hell.
Jesus entrusted a terrible authority to the Church, that of pardoning sin.

True contrition is a gift of grace. Witness the so-called "Good Thief" who was crucified alongside Jesus and who was promised Paradise. The man knew his guilt before God and repented. Luke 23:39-43
Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life, and that no one came to the Father but through him. I believe this to be true, while also believing that ignorance of the specifics of this revealed truth is not a just cause for someone to be damned. Think of the millions if not billions who have lived and died never having heard the Gospel.
IF Jesus is Lord of the living and of the dead, and Scripture portrays him as such, then the dead who make it to heaven do so through his agency, even though in life they may have never known of him by name and may actually have opposed what they thought was the Gospel message. What matters is whether or not their lives were oriented toward the light or away from it, while God's final judgment involves ratifying the fundamental choice that every soul makes. The mystery here is why an all loving God would create beings who would end up in hell.

reply from: LexIcon

I loved Romper Room and Astro-Boy, but http://www.timstvshowcase.com/kangaroo.html was the king!

reply from: B0zo

I most certainly do remember that, and some stations continued that into the 70's, I believe.
There was always the Star Spangled Banner and then the test pattern. I remember the few times when I was very young staying up late enough to see that.
I will soon be 55, so some of what you remember I only remember second-hand from hearing my brother or parents talk about it.
I do remember all the cowboy shows and I hated them all.

reply from: Shenanigans

There was always the Star Spangled Banner and then the test pattern. I remember the few times when I was very young staying up late enough to see that.
I will soon be 55, so some of what you remember I only remember second-hand from hearing my brother or parents talk about it.
Which goes to show how backwards NZL is, we still had the "good night" right up till the early 90s. We had a cartoon kiwi and cat who'd climb up into a TV dish and sleep there, and it was always after the late movie, so it TV could end at 10.30pm.
It also wasn't till about 1992 that we started to get 24/7 TV running, even if it was just repeats of M*A*S*H.
And until 1990ish, we only had two channels. -_-

reply from: B0zo

And your air force's symbol is a flightless bird.
But how many of us here would love to live in your country and return to a more simple life, and ride a ride a kangaroo to work.

reply from: Shenanigans

Yeah, well, it was the left wing govt. we had a few years ago that basically made that symbol more then just a symbol!
As for kangaroos, we don't have them here, but we used to have these:
http://www.zealand.org.nz/images/moa0.jpg

But the Maoris eateded them all.


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