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FDR got it right.

The Second Bill of Rights

by: QueenJ

Franklin D. Roosevelt
"The Economic Bill of Rights"
Excerpt from 11 January 1944 message to Congress on the State of the Union:
It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people - whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth - is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.
This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights - among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.
As our nation has grown in size and stature, however - as our industrial economy expanded - these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.
We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. "Necessitous men are not free men." People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all - regardless of station, race, or creed.
Among these are:
The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.
All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.
America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.
Source: The Public Papers & Addresses of Franklin D. Roosevelt (Samuel Rosenman, ed.), Vol XIII (NY: Harper, 1950), 40-42
http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/globalrights/econrights/fdr-econbill.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwUL9tJmypI
FOR UNLESS THERE IS SECURITY HERE AT HOME, THERE CANNOT BE LASTING PEACE IN THE WORLD.
FOR UNLESS THERE IS SECURITY HERE AT HOME, THERE CANNOT BE LASTING PEACE IN THE WORLD.
FOR UNLESS THERE IS SECURITY HERE AT HOME, THERE CANNOT BE LASTING PEACE IN THE WORLD.

reply from: B0zo

And the government which doesn't do a thing to create weath can do all this?
How?

reply from: B0zo

What about the "Right to Life"?
Does a fetus have the right to a decent home?

reply from: QueenJ

Europe seems to be faring quite nicely. Maybe give them a call and inquire about how it's hanging over there?
"We live in the RICHEST country in the world. We all deserve a decent job, health care, a good education, a home to call our own. We all deserve FDR's dream. And it is a CRIME that we don't have it. And we never will, as long as we have a system that enriches the few at the expense of the many. Capitalism is an evil and you cannot regulate evil. You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for ALL people. And that something is called DEMOCRACY."
Michael Moore in "Capitalism: A Love Story" (WATCH IT!)

reply from: QueenJ

How about we first START and FINISH taking care of the humans who are already born and breathing?

reply from: Spinwubby

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A-frikken'-MEN!
My offer still stands.
The day http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/assets/wanting_a_meal.jpgI promse to start worrying about the fetuses.

reply from: sk1bianca

humans who are already born and breathing are not in danger of being legally killed by their own mothers.
abortion won't end famine, war, pollution, abuse or natural disasters. abortion won't save the world. understand it already...

reply from: Skippy

No need to give them a call. The answer is obvious.
European countries are small and relatively homogeneous, with tight immigration laws that they enforce rigorously, and they also do not spend trillions of dollars on military R&D and a large standing army. They don't have to, because they know we'll come to their aid if bombs start falling and tanks come rolling into their country.
It's easy to afford cradle-to-grave social programs under those circumstances.

reply from: B0zo

Europe seems to be faring quite nicely. Maybe give them a call and inquire about how it's hanging over there?
"We live in the RICHEST country in the world. We all deserve a decent job, health care, a good education, a home to call our own. We all deserve FDR's dream. And it is a CRIME that we don't have it. And we never will, as long as we have a system that enriches the few at the expense of the many. Capitalism is an evil and you cannot regulate evil. You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for ALL people. And that something is called DEMOCRACY."
Michael Moore in "Capitalism: A Love Story" (WATCH IT!)
Explain how we "enrich the few at the expense of the many," and why this is wrong.
For example, my favorite radio program is Rush Limbaugh. He makes an ungodly amount of money, I think around 30 million a year.
But he has 20 million listners who WANT TO LISTEN TO HIM.
If you took all his money away, it would not only be unfair, but there would be no incentive for him to do his program.
If all his listeners paid him, it would be less than $2 a year. I would rather that he make millions at the expense of the many, so that I can enjoy his program, rather than propping up a local guy who I would not want to listen to.
Now, you might not like Rush Limbauh, and you don't have to listen and don't have to support him in any way.
But you might have a favorite recording artist who is also making millions, and the same principle applies.
They might make millions at the expense of the many, but the expense is peanuts compared to the value received.
If you want to see where the money is squandered, read Fat City.
It's the government which wastes money by taking from one sector and giving to another, to "be fair," but the process is so inefficient, wasteful, and corrupt that much wealth is flushed down the toilet, and it provides disincentives to both those who are plundered and those who receive the plunder.
Capitalism is not evil. It is why we are the richest country. But we don't have true capitalism anymore, and our current government is trying to destroy it further.
It's capitalism which has raised the standards of living in our country, making it the richest, and making it so rich that even the poor ARE taken care of.
Who is sending money to Haiti and other impoverished countries?
The "evil" of capitalism has given us surpluses so we can help others.
And Michael Moore is a capitalist as far as his own enrichment is concerned and could not have made it without captialism.
If we were all good, loving, and unselfish, just about any system would work. But we are not. We have greedy and selfish tendencies--not just the rich--most of us. We even kill our own and call it "choice." Unless and until we all embrace what is good and noble, capitalism is by far the best system, though it is good that we also have a "safety net."

reply from: B0zo

How about we first START and FINISH taking care of the humans who are already born and breathing?
So we should kill those in the womb until we have this utopia?
Why not kill the old, the sick, and the poor as well?

reply from: B0zo

Really?
Why are you here instead of there?
And what makes you think they are doing so well? Give some examples to support your assertion.

reply from: B0zo

How about we first START and FINISH taking care of the humans who are already born and breathing?
This statement is a little disingenuous considering your signature line.
An element of your utopia would be abortion on demand, would it not?
Or will you become prolife and insist abortion be banished if the FDR ideal is realized?

reply from: QueenJ

We should give precedence to those already born and breathing.
That's SO totally the next, logical step! HOW DID YOU KNOW?

reply from: QueenJ

A. Defecting isn't all that easy of a process.
B. Just because I disagree with the way my country is run means that I should leave it?
You watch the news, yes? How many news stories have you seen about European countries imploding in on themselves? None? So, like, they're actually living and surviving over there? Imagine that.

reply from: LexIcon

Europe is dying because of declining birthrates. Some would call this an implosion.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/27/world/main546441.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/03/world/europe/03iht-birth.2683302.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/europe/04prague.html

reply from: B0zo

You're being very vague.
You're making the assertion that FDR had the answers, so I'm just asking how we go about it, and how the government can be the answer when the private sector does all the work.
I shouldn't have to make a study of Europe. You should back up your own claims both about FDR ideas and about Europe.

reply from: B0zo

How about we first START and FINISH taking care of the humans who are already born and breathing?
This statement is a little disingenuous considering your signature line.
An element of your utopia would be abortion on demand, would it not?
Or will you become prolife and insist abortion be banished if the FDR ideal is realized?
You didn't awswer my question.
Once we are taking care of everyone, are you then in favor of making abortion illegal and making sure that fetuses also have the right to live well?

reply from: KarlMarx

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/outlines.htm

When and if a national economy begins to collapse, the first to suffer are the working class. When they begin to see their children starving, they will revolt. They will care naught for pretty arguments about who is most deserving...
Considering that the working class almost always greatly outnumber the bourgeois, who so graciously exploit them for their own gain, these things must be carefully considered.

reply from: Shenanigans

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A-frikken'-MEN!
My offer still stands.
The day http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/assets/wanting_a_meal.jpgI promse to start worrying about the fetuses.
How about we START with when human life BEGINS. If we extend protection to our most vunlerable then it shouldn't be too hard to stretch out our generosity to those in dire need.
Although, I agree with assisting those in poverty and unemployment. A hand up not a hand out. We have enough bludgers in society without providing more people an opportunity to mooch off the system.
I think everything lies in education. You educate society you will create a higher minded workforce which will produce higher quality goods and services, a stronger medical system which in turn will ensure people will have good health as they progress in life.
I hate the idea of some people being ralligated to the dregs of society because their parents can't afford to send to a decent school. If we make all schools decent we wont' have a problem.
Of course, we need to ensure people take ownership, people have to develop a work ethic and none of this "the world owes me this and it best serve me while I lay on my arse developing up a nice case of diabetes".
People have to take ownership for the mess they get themselves in, and how they get themselves out. We can lead a horse to water, but you can't really make it drink - unless its really thirsty, in which case, the horse will lead itself and then all you have to do is make sure the water's there, clean and accessible, unless of course the horse is of course the famous Mr. Ed, in which case, he'll go order a flat white with a side order of bran and apples.

reply from: B0zo

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
A-frikken'-MEN!
My offer still stands.
The day http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/assets/wanting_a_meal.jpgI promse to start worrying about the fetuses.
You think worrying about fetuses somehow makes this worse?
Or that if we had more abortions it would get better?

reply from: Shenanigans

A few years ago there were some riots in a part of Paris where really poor people live. One of my lecturers was over there visiting family and got caught up in the middle of it. Those people were rioting because they had no jobs, very little money, and lived in a total sh1t hole.
Not to mention, look at the slowly diminishing freedoms over there, France and a few other countries are pushing to ban clothing that expresses religious adherence, it does make sense to ban a woman wearing a full face covering burka when shes giving evidence in a court of law, but what right does a govt. have to tell a woman she can't wear a head scarf? They're also starting to go after people who wear simple crucifixes and stars of David as jewerlly.
The grass is always greener, Queen.

reply from: Shenanigans

That's the strange thing, its like some people can't worry about too many things.
You can worry about poverty and saving the foetus from abortion.
At its core the two are probably closely related.

reply from: B0zo

Agreed.
But the OP also seems to think that there is an evil in doing "too well"--as if someone who is amazingly successful has robbed everyone else, and needs to be brought town a peg or two.
This is what is know as "the politics of envy," and the Democrats play that card every chance they can (while living like kings and queens themselves on the taxpayer dime).

reply from: QueenJ

No. I will never be in favor of making abortion illegal. I believe abortion will always be necessary. There is no way to insure that no woman will get pregnant who doesn't want to be pregnant and continue her pregnancy.

I would be in favor of taking measures to make abortion more rare of a necessity by doing things such as making birth control (of all kinds) affordable, available, and easily accessible to all & providing comprehensive sexual health education to all & taking away the stigma around sex and sexual activity & the like.
And, just to clarify, I don't want to reduce the number of abortions because I feel it is bad or evil. I feel the same about every other invasive, medical procedure because invasive, medical procedures aren't so fun and require often painful recovery afterward.
I don't believe fetuses have a right to live. They are not and should not be considered persons.

reply from: QueenJ

I'm trying to get some statistics wrangled up for you, but it's a bit of a tedious process. If you'll just bear with me, it'd be much appreciated.
In the meantime, I have a question for you. Why don't you think it's the government's responsibility to ensure its citizens have food, shelter, health care, and education? Do you not consider these basic human rights that everyone deserves regardless of economic status?

reply from: LexIcon

What exactly is a person?
It seems to me that if fetuses do not posses a right to live, then neither does any other living thing.

reply from: QueenJ

Here's a bit to tide you over while I get my other ducks in a row. Enjoy.
Unemployment:
Andorra - 0.0%
Monaco - 0.0%
Guernsey - 0.9%
Faroe Islands - 1.2%
Isle of Man - 1.5%
Liechtenstein - 1.5%
Belarus - 1.6%
Vanuatu - 1.7%
Kiribati - 2.0%
Jersey - 2.2%
Moldova - 2.6%
Gibraltar - 3.0%
San Marino - 3.1%
Norway - 3.2%
Denmark - 3.6%
Switzerland - 3.7%
Austria - 4.7%
Cyprus - 4.8%
Ukraine - 4.8%
Netherlands - 5%
Greenland - 5.4%
Australia - 5.7%
Malta - 6.0%
Luxembourg - 6.8%
New Zealand - 7.3%
Romania - 7.6%
Italy - 7.5%
United Kingdom - 8%
Germany - 8.2%
Belgium - 8.3%
Canada - 8.6%
Finland - 8.7%
Iceland - 8.8%
Greece - 8.9%
Bulgaria - 9.15%
Portugal - 9.2%
Czech Republic - 9.3%
Sweden - 9.3%
United States - 9.4%
Source - http://https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

reply from: QueenJ

We are granted person-hood upon birth.
I hope you didn't hurt yourself making that GIANT leap there. Care to explain your thought process?

reply from: B0zo

That proves nothing, but I didn't vote for a Democrat president and congress.
Elect Republicans and the fiscally responsible, and the rate will go down.

reply from: B0zo

To make sense of those numbers we need to know more about them in the context of each particular country, such as the overall standard of living and how many of those jobs are make-work wasteful government jobs.
92% in the UK are working and 90.6% in the US are working. Is it really that significant of a difference?
But I'm still waiting for you to explain how the FDR approach actually works.
How can the government take care of everyone when it does no actual business. It makes no product. It produces no crops. It doesn't mine a lump of coal.
How can we get all this good stuff from the government?

reply from: B0zo

And a week before birth you want women to have the right to have the brains sucked out of her baby?
Does that make any sense?
I know you will say it never happens that way, yet you will still want that right.
How can a mature fetus not "in principle" and "morally" be a person?
Birth is arbitrary.

reply from: spinvortex

Are you being serious? The people pay for everything, including government. How does the government provide roads, bridges, police and military forces? Courthouses, prisons, and all the other things society needs? Are these things more important than food, housing, and medical care? Or is it just that, since you have no problem providing the basics for you and your family (at least now), you find it difficult to empathize with those who are struggling? I hear it all the time. People assume that anyone who has difficulty has brought it upon themselves by being lazy and/or irresponsible. It just isn't so. Sure, there are people who take advantage of the system, but if you were financially ruined tomorrow, you might gain a new perspective on this.
All that having been said, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. If we keep people healthy to start with by making sure they can have regular checkups and such, that might be a lot cheaper than waiting until their situation is urgent. Lots of people seem to think hospitals have to treat you, but that simply isn't so. A lot of time and resources (both = $$$) are wasted assessing the condition of people who will never be treated. Hospitals cost more to run than a doctor's office. It would cost less if everyone had a doctor to see, who could determine whether hospitalization was necessary.
I think universal health care is not only the right thing to do from a Christian ethical view, but also makes sense. I am saddened by the fact that so many seemingly good people are bucking this, and even sadder to think it's because of political positions and loyalties.

reply from: QueenJ

Life Expectancy:
Andorra - 82.51
Australia - 81.63
Canada - 81.23
France - 80.98
Sweden - 80.86
Switzerland - 80.85
San Marino - 80.81
Iceland - 80.67
New Zealand - 80.36
Italy - 80.20
Monaco - 80.09
Liechtenstein - 80.06
Spain - 80.05
Guernsey - 80.00
Norway - 79.95
Jersey - 79.75
Greece - 79.66
Austria - 79.50
Faroe Islands - 79.44
Malta - 79.44
Netherlands - 79.40
Luxembourg - 79.33
Germany - 79.26
Belgium - 79.22
United Kingdom - 79.01
Finland - 78.97
Isle of Man - 78.82
Gibraltar - 78.79
Bosnia and Herzegovina - 78.50
Denmark - 78.30
Ireland - 78.24
Portugal - 78.21
Wallis and Futuna - 78.20
United States - 78.11
Source - http://https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
Total Public and Private Debt Owed to Non-residents (repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services):
$25,000,000 - Greenland
$3,073,000,000 - Iceland
$36,430,000,000 - Lithuania
$38,010,000,000 - Latvia
$49,280,000,000 - Bulgaria
$53,200,000,000 - Slovenia
$55,500,000,000 - Croatia
$58,920,000,000 - New Zealand
$76,830,000,000 - Czech Republic
$88,920,000,000 - Ukraine
$95,480,000,000 - Romania
$150,300,000,000 - Hungary
$201,200,000,000 - Poland
$364,900,000,000 - Finland
$507,000,000,000 - Portugal
$548,100,000,000 - Norway
$552,800,000,000 - Greece
$607,400,000,000 - Denmark
$669,100,000,000 - Sweden
$832,400,000,000 - Austria
$833,800,000,000 - Canada
$920,000,000,000 - Australia
$1,339,000,000,000 - Switzerland
$1,994,000,000,000 - Luxembourg
$2,387,000,000,000 - Ireland
$2,410,000,000,000 - Spain
$2,452,000,000,000 - Netherlands
$5,021,000,000,000 - France
$5,208,000,000,000 - Germany
$9,088,000,000,000 - United Kingdom
$13,450,000,000,000 - United States
Source - http://https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html

reply from: spinvortex

When you're doing good, you pay to help others, then if you fall on hard times, the others do the same for you. This is the way a society should work. It is the Christian way. It is the ethical way. It benefits all of society. I can't believe that so many self professed Christians choose to serve Mammon. (not talking about any specific individual here, just a general observation based on discussion I've heard on socialism and health care)
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

reply from: QueenJ

I must have missed the part where he said that government can't do business?

reply from: QueenJ

So, basically, what you're saying is that no matter how many statistics I present, you're not willing to crack open your mind the tiniest bit? Awesome! How's that working out for you?
In what crazy, bizarro world do you live in? Bush, a Republican, is the one who ran the economy into the ground.

reply from: QueenJ

EXACTLY!
It is only a matter of time before you become disabled by accident, injury, illness, and/or old age. It's not if, it's when.

reply from: B0zo

So, basically, what you're saying is that no matter how many statistics I present, you're not willing to crack open your mind the tiniest bit? Awesome! How's that working out for you?
In what crazy, bizarro world do you live in? Bush, a Republican, is the one who ran the economy into the ground.
Really? How?
How long have the Democrats had control of congress?
At any rate, how does this FDR thing work?
Give an example of how we all will have good jobs.
A law will be passed to that effect?
Can a law be passed that creates weath?

reply from: QueenJ

Yes a million times over.

reply from: QueenJ

You can look at it this way. They have an almost equal employment rate AND are able to provide their citizens with health care, housing, and education.

reply from: B0zo

You can look at it this way. They have an almost equal employment rate AND are able to provide their citizens with health care, housing, and education.
In what way are we not doing that? Isn't it true that nobody who goes to an emergency room in the US will be turned down?
Isn't it true that in the US there are grants and scolarships that help those in need who want to go to school? Isn't it true that there are low cost community colleges and state colleges and that it is possible (god forbid), that in lieu of grants and handouts one could actually work their way through college?
Are you in agreement with Michael Moore--the man worth FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS--that captialisim is evil?
If so, why, and how are we supposed to instead conduct business?

reply from: spinvortex

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/ph/rpt/2003-r-0621.htm
">http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olr...2003-r-0621.htm
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395dd.html
">http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395dd.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395dd.html
">http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395dd.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1395dd.html

reply from: spinvortex

http://harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-lack-health-coverage

reply from: QueenJ

Yes.
So many women who are 39 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, and 14 minutes pregnant want to get abortions and they can't. So many women have gone through almost a year of pregnancy, observed their abdomens protruding further and further each day, have felt the unmistakable movements of their fetuses, and at the very last, possible moment say to themselves, "Oh snap! A baby is going to come out of me? Oh, hell no!," then waddle as fast as they can to their nearest abortion provider. I see them every day by the THOUSANDS in lines winding around several city blocks.
They either have been too stupid and/or clueless to recognize the obvious signs and symptoms of pregnancy for ten months or have known they were pregnant and then decided to stay pregnant in order to be able to do a one-eighty moments before going into active labor (because women can predict when their labor will begin and whether the contractions they are experiencing are Braxton-Hicks or the real deal and therefore can plan to abort their healthy, viable fetuses accordingly). Why go through the presumably most difficult, complicated, and lengthy of abortion procedures rather than allow their bodies to go through the process of naturally expelling their children from their bodies?
Well, it depends. Usually, it's because they don't want to miss hair and/or nail appointments at the salon or they need to go tanning and shopping. Many times it's because that ten months hasn't been long enough for them to fully realize that they will become mothers and either have to parent a child or relinquish a child to an adoptive family. Again, this is sometimes due to stupidity. Sometimes because the labor and delivery would conflict with previously scheduled appointments at the nail/hair salon. And then sometimes women just love to endure months of pregnancy for the specific purpose of aborting at the last possible second before labor begins (which we've established they already have the psychic abilities to predict). Different strokes for different folks, amirite?
Why do we celebrate birthdays? Why do we issue birth certificates? Why do we get our social security numbers upon birth? Why do we begin counting our ages the day we are born?

reply from: spinvortex

None of this implies that we do not exist as human beings/persons prior to birth. I don't think any of this has any real bearing on the legal or moral status of unborn human beings. You seem to be implying that they do, but I don't see it.

reply from: B0zo

Why can a baby be delivered prematurely and be protected by law, and one the exact same age (but still in the womb) be killed?
Of course the day of birth is of special significance, but that doesn't diminish the moral worth of the fetus the day before it was born.

reply from: B0zo

I was expecting a reply like this, but didn't expect it to be so long.
At any rate, if it "never happens" then why fear a law against it?
I think it COULD happen, just like people sometimes kill their born children.
Imagine a scenario in which a pregnant woman is going through a bitter divorce and one way she could punish her husband would be to kill the child he was so looking forward to.
Sure it would be rare, just like it is rare that people murder other people, but it could still happen and it could still happen in the eight month.
Why not allow for such a situation to be illegal?

reply from: QueenJ

Can you go into an ER and get a yearly Pap smear and gynecological exam? Can you go into an ER twice a year and get your teeth cleaned (or a root canal or a tooth removed or braces)? Can you go into an ER and receive chemotherapy treatments? Radiation? Immuno-therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive dialysis? Can you go into an ER and receive therapy for depression and/or bipolar disorder and/or schizophrenia and/or any of the other mental illnesses? Can you go into an ER and get your birth control prescription filled every month? Your anti-depressants? Your anti-psychotics? Your anti-seizure medication? Your cholesterol reduction medication? Your blood thinners? Your insulin/needles/blood sugar monitor machine and test strips? Can you go into an ER and get speech therapy or physical therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive hospice care at the end of your life? Or palliative care at the end of a fight with a terminal illness? Can you go into the ER and get your eyes checked? Can you go into the ER to get regular prenatal check-ups for an uncomplicated pregnancy? Can you go to an ER and stay there to recover from a stroke? Surgery? Car accident? Can you get a cleft palate repaired in the ER? Can you get a mastectomy in the ER? Can you get tubes in your ears in the ER? Can you get fitted for a leg brace or prothesis? Can you have an expert help you learn how to use it? Can you get a colostomy and receive education on how to live life with one?
Barring a full-ride scholarship to college, grants and scholarships don't come close to covering the cost of a college education today.

Have you attended a community college or state college in the last 3 years? I'm taking one class this semester at a community college. Tuition was around $500. Book was $120. Parking permit was $40. Miscellaneous fees were around $100.
How is someone supposed to pay for tuition, books, school fees, rent & utilities, food, clothing, personal care products (shampoo, toothpaste, etc.), health insurance, and transportation (and car insurance if you need a car) on minimum wage? How can one person be expected to work 40+ hours a week AND perform well for 12 hours in class in addition to the 3 hours per class for homework and studying outside of class?

reply from: LexIcon

We are granted person-hood upon birth.
That's not an answer to the question.
Why don't you believe fetuses have a right to live? Explain your thought process.

reply from: QueenJ

We are granted person-hood upon birth.
That's not an answer to the question.
When you are born, you gain person-hood and are then a person. A person is a human that has been born.
I believe the life, health, and well-being of the woman in whose body the fetus is residing takes precedence over the fetus.

reply from: B0zo

What is the cost for one semester at the community college, assuming you would be a full time student?

reply from: B0zo

I've been able to help my sons very little with their college, but my older son will have his doctorate next year (and some debt) and my younger son, will soon be in his second year of college. They both found ways using all means available to go to school.
And not everyone needs or wants to go to college, btw. Is it fair to make those who choose not to attend to pay for those who do?

reply from: B0zo

But I'm open to compromising. My younger son thinks education should be "free" to everyone, and we came up with a scenario that worked for both of us--that public education would inculde getting an associate degree, and that after that you would be on your own.

reply from: B0zo

After talking to my son and doing a little research I've come up with the following:
The cost per 15 credit term at a local community college, including books, would be approximately $1,300.
Each year the cost would be $3,900, plus costs to commute, and I'm assuming that someone would live at home to save the most money.
15 credits is a lot of work, but there would still be time to work 10 hours per week, plus there would be 12 to 13 weeks in the summer to work full time.
There would be time to work 870 hours in the year, and even if all the student cleared after taxes would be $7 per hour, this would be $6,090--more than enough to pay for tuition and costs of commuting.
And what if the student worked full time for a year before going to college?
At any rate, my figures are that excluding commuting costs, that it would cost $7,800 in two years to get an associate degree, and that by working 10 hours per week during school, and full time during the summer, that during those two years, even if clearing only $7 per hour, that over $12,000 could be earned.
It's clear to me that it's very possible to at least work your way through community college.

reply from: QueenJ

$74 per credit
12 credits x $74 = $888
Books & Supplies = $515
Personal Expenses = $300
College Service Fee (per term) = $19
Student Activity Fee = $1.70 per credit
12 x $1.70 = $20.40
Technology Fee = $4.50 per credit
12 x $4.50 = $54
Lab Fees = $45 per course
4 x $45 = $180
All-Day Parking Permit = $40 per term
OR
1-month Bus Pass = $86
3 x $86 = $258
Rent = $600 per month
3 x $600 = $1800
Utilities = $30 per month
3 x $30 = $90
Food = $100 per month
3 x $100 = $300
Health Insurance = $100 per month
3 x $100 = $300
888 + 515 + 325 + 19 + 20.40 + 54 + 180 + 40 + 1800 + 90 + 300 + 300 =
TOTAL: $4506.40

reply from: Banned Member

It's uncanny. QueenJ has the opposite opinion of mine on every stinking subject. How can any one person be so left all the time. It just ain't natural. There's got to be something she hasn't been brainwashed to believe in by her communist leaning professors or CNN, MSNBC, PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC, CSPAN, CNBC, The Weather Channel, The Daily Show or Air America.
This is what happens when you reject the Christian faith. You are left to create your own selfish morality and narcissistic world view.

reply from: QueenJ

Say what? Where do you live?
Living With Your Parents
Tuition & Fees
(1 Term) $979 / (2 Terms) $1958 / (3 Terms) $2937 / (4 Terms) $3916
Books & Supplies
$515 / $1030 / $1545 / $2060
Room & Board
$1020 / $2040 / $3060 / $4080
Transportation
$470 / $940 / $1410 / $1880
Personal
$450 / $900 / $1350 / $1800
Total Expenses
$3,434 / $6,868 / $10,302 / $ 13,736
$10,302 for one year (3 terms) of full-time (12 credits per term) enrollment
http://www.pcc.edu/resources/tuition-fees/financial-aid/getting-started/cost.html

reply from: QueenJ

My grandfather has bladder cancer. He's one of the "lucky" few who has insurance. Where would he be today without insurance? Where would he be if he hadn't been able to go to the doctor for that check-up where his cancer was discovered? Where would he have been able to receive his eight weeks of immuno-therapy (wherein they injected tuberculosis into his bladder, which he had to hold in his body for two hours afterward) if he didn't have insurance?
What would his options have been when that immuno-therapy was ineffective in killing his cancer if he didn't have insurance? Where would he have been able to have the surgery to remove his bladder, rearrange his urinary system, and put a colostomy in place of the bladder he no longer has if he didn't have insurance? Where would he have been able to recover in the hospital for 19 (and counting) days and receive around-the-clock monitoring and care if he didn't have insurance? How would he have been able to receive the physical therapy and occupational therapy he needs to recover if he had been without insurance? How would he be able to have daily visits from the colostomy nurse wherein he is taught how to use and maintain the colostomy and to live WITHOUT his bladder if he didn't have insurance? How would he have been able to receive the immense amount of pain medication, saline solution, and liquid nutritional supplements required for his recovery if he didn't have insurance? Where would he have had certified nurse's assistants to aid him in sitting up in bed, getting out of bed, and walking if he didn't have insurance?
Tell me how much his Medicaid is going to cover the ever-mounting astronomical medical bills. Tell me how much he will end up paying in the end. Tell me how much he is able to afford to pay with his inadequate Social Security check. Tell me how much Medicaid will cover all the medical equipment he will need to maintain his colostomy (which needs to be replaced every four to five days) for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Tell me how much Medicaid will cover the many medications he will require EVERY month for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Tell me how much Medicaid will cover the cost of the home health aide/nurse he will need.
Tell me how a veteran, who fought for his country, a tax-payer for more than SIX DECADES, a regular church-goer, who gives back to his community any chance he gets, deserves to receive ANYTHING less than the BEST medical care. Tell me WHY the government he risked his life for and has paid thousands of dollars into ISN'T responsible for insuring his health and protecting against his death from a painful, debilitating, and (in this case) treatable disease. Explain to me the fairness in him and his wife of sixty-one years suffering financial difficulties in order to pay for their portion of the medical care he needed IN ORDER TO LIVE.

reply from: QueenJ

Can you go into an ER and get a yearly Pap smear and gynecological exam? Can you go into an ER twice a year and get your teeth cleaned (or a root canal or a tooth removed or braces)? Can you go into an ER and receive chemotherapy treatments? Radiation? Immuno-therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive dialysis? Can you go into an ER and receive therapy for depression and/or bipolar disorder and/or schizophrenia and/or any of the other mental illnesses? Can you go into an ER and get your birth control prescription filled every month? Your anti-depressants? Your anti-psychotics? Your anti-seizure medication? Your cholesterol reduction medication? Your blood thinners? Your insulin/needles/blood sugar monitor machine and test strips? Can you go into an ER and get speech therapy or physical therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive hospice care at the end of your life? Or palliative care at the end of a fight with a terminal illness? Can you go into the ER and get your eyes checked? Can you go into the ER to get regular prenatal check-ups for an uncomplicated pregnancy? Can you go to an ER and stay there to recover from a stroke? Surgery? Car accident? Can you get a cleft palate repaired in the ER? Can you get a mastectomy in the ER? Can you get tubes in your ears in the ER? Can you get fitted for a leg brace or prothesis? Can you have an expert help you learn how to use it? Can you get a colostomy and receive education on how to live life with one?

reply from: B0zo

The cost per credit at the local community college, and I will PM you with the name if you like, but it's in Oregon, is $73.00
It takes 90 credits to get the associate degree-right? That works out to approximately $6,600. By buying used books and some new, the book cost for the six terms would be $1,200 for a total cost of $7,800, or let's round it off to $8,000.
That's $8,000 for two years of college--enough to get an associate's degree.
I was assuming the student would live at home and borrow the family car or hitch rides. I was not assuming the student would move out at this stage, but would do whatever is necessary to save money, so I was not adding in room and board or transportation costs.
But with my scenario, the student would earn $12,000, so there would be funds available for transportation.
I would assume that a student would be on the family's health insurance plan. My son is on my plan, and will be until he is 23, at a minimal cost.
You have used figures you borrowed from a website. I used actual numbers based on my own research.
Even if in my scenario it is too tight to do, which I do not think it is, and the student could work 15 hours instead of 10 and have more breathing room, it can still be done.
What is the "personal" expense, btw, and why can't the student live at home?
Also, your figures are skewed a little too high because it is presuming going for four terms, and in my scenario it is done in three terms.
And if the student took off for a year and worked full time he could earn $14,000 to $20,000 and have that to start with, while also supplementing expenses working part time once he started full time attendence.
It's not impossible. It's been done by many.
Question: Is it evil that Michael Moore became a millionaire many times over at the expense of the many who paid to see his films?

reply from: B0zo

How many different discussions are we having in this thread???
Anyway, your grandfather is not one of the few. Do you think only a minority of people have health insurance?
Someone I know at our church had a very serious and deadly problem with his brain and he needed brain surgery and several operations, and he had no insurance. Somehow it got done.
Another man I knew who sadly died of a very rare disease and was fairly prominent in his community, also did not have insurance, and yet he had all the tests done and had hospice care up until the end.

reply from: Banned Member

I got bad news for you free health care freaks, you're all going to die. Health care or no health care, you're going to die. Health insurance or no health insurance, you're going to die. I didn't ask for your existence and I sure as hell don't intend on subsidizing it. Take the hand you get, play it as good as you can, and stay the he!! out of my pockets and I'll do the same. Damn freeloading, underachieving, crybaby, welfare beggars. I'm sick of hearing you losers whining on and on. Oh poor me, oh poor me. Man up a little and take responsibility for your own life for a change. You bunch of leftist, prideless thieves.

reply from: Shenanigans

To beat the old dead horse with maggots swiggling out of its brains, and worms up in its sinus cavity, "person" is just a legal defintion. It can be removed or granted at the whims of society and govt. The Nazis took away "personhood" from the Jews, the SCOUS took away personhood (well, 4/5ths of it) from Blacks.
We can argue about them being born, but its a moot point, as its the application of "personhood rights" that are being debated.
And granting a right to life too foetuses is also redundant. The foetus already is alive, therefore, it will continue to live until such time as nature or man destory it. Therefore, you are not saying you think foetuses don't have a right to live, you're supporting that an individual can kill a foetus.
And a foetus is a human being, regardless of what the law says.

reply from: Shenanigans

Far be it from me to rain on your parade, but those stats, are they considering population? I mean, the USA seems to have the biggest population of all of those countries, so wouldn't it be more likely that a country with more people have larger debt?

reply from: Shenanigans

Actually, it takes about a decade for a govt's economic policies to be felt by a population. There may be instances were immediate responses can be expressed, but in actual fact, Clinton's policies helped shape the current climate (well, during Bush).
And what ran the stupid economy into the ground was people living way beyond their means. I mean, honestly, what do people think is going to happen if they live off credit cards and have three mortages on their homes and still go out and buy that beach house and new merc?
"Keeping up with the Joneses" is what ran the economy into the ground.

reply from: Shenanigans

None of this implies that we do not exist as human beings/persons prior to birth. I don't think any of this has any real bearing on the legal or moral status of unborn human beings. You seem to be implying that they do, but I don't see it.
Its cos its easier.

reply from: Shenanigans

$74 per credit
12 credits x $74 = $888
Books & Supplies = $515
Personal Expenses = $300
College Service Fee (per term) = $19
Student Activity Fee = $1.70 per credit
12 x $1.70 = $20.40
Technology Fee = $4.50 per credit
12 x $4.50 = $54
Lab Fees = $45 per course
4 x $45 = $180
All-Day Parking Permit = $40 per term
OR
1-month Bus Pass = $86
3 x $86 = $258
Rent = $600 per month
3 x $600 = $1800
Utilities = $30 per month
3 x $30 = $90
Food = $100 per month
3 x $100 = $300
Health Insurance = $100 per month
3 x $100 = $300
888 + 515 + 325 + 19 + 20.40 + 54 + 180 + 40 + 1800 + 90 + 300 + 300 =
TOTAL: $4506.40
You guys need to stop your damn whinging, I spent 7 years in tertiary education and walked away with something quite worth while.
I also walked away with a student loan of, at last count:
Seventy six thousand, eight hundred and twenty three dollars and sixty two cents.
The govt. loaned me the money for my course feels, $1,000 a year for "course costs, which BTW, it was actually more like $1,800 a year, and $150 a week in "living costs". My rent was $140 a week. So yeah, do the math, I'm gonna come up short. -_-
But I had a job cleaning up sh1t, literally, mon - fri for four hours in the PM and 8 hour shifts on Sat and a split shift on Sun.
I spent 8 hours at school a day. If you want something, you fight for it and you work for it and you stop whinging about it. My dad helped me out at times, but I'm paying him back, and the only reason he loaned me the money was because he knew I'd soon have a job and could pay him back.
In the two years I've worked post grad, I've managed to pay off three thousand dollars of my loan (and thankfully the govt a few years ago made student loans interest free).
I'd love education to be free, but it isn't, and it wont' be, not for a long time or until a really good govt. rark up. So, the reality is, either put up, or shut up.

reply from: Shenanigans

A govt. funded health system ain't that great either.
A friend of mine got injured playing hockey, a ball hit her, she was in more pain then she should have been, so they took her for an XRay and lo and behold, she had a tumour.
They surgically removed it, but because she was "fit and healthy" and only 18 they said she could wait for chemo and radiation, because the waiting list was so full.
Just over a year later she was dead.
Society isn't at a point when we can have a great system.

reply from: QueenJ

The college I'm attending has a $74 per credit tuition. It still came out to $10,302 for one year attending three terms at 12 (not 15) credits per term.
Uh ... no. You've obviously not been to college in many years. The cost of attending has risen quite a bit.
As I outlined above there are fees (college service & student activity & technology & lab). Some of which are per term, some of which are per credit per term.
Also, used books? Not always available. Many times new books are introduced and old books are discontinued thereby only leaving you with the option of buying a new book. And the limited supply of used books go fast. First come, first served. Finally, the cost difference between used and new? Not that huge. Used textbooks still cost a hell of a lot of money.
Ever taken a college art class? Say painting, for instance. You have to buy paint (multiple colors, multiple tubes, which aren't cheap), brushes (which aren't cheap either), multiple canvases, painting medium (I forget what the actual name for it is), palette, paint scraper/spatula, sketchbook, etc., etc.
Ever taken a math class beyond algebra? You'll need one of those scientific calculators.
$10,302 is the estimate for the student living at home (hence the title directly above the figures - "Living With Your Parents"). But living with parents isn't an option for many students. And even if you can live with your parents, some start charging you rent after you turn 18.
Enough to cover car payments & car insurance & gas? Or monthly bus passes (where public transportation is an available and viable option)? Or a share of the cost of gas if carpooling? Or the cost of a bicycle and/or the maintenance of a bicycle that will be ridden on a frequent basis?
Assuming that the student's family has health insurance in the first place, right? Assuming that the student's family health insurance plan covers children past the age of 18? Assuming that the student won't be expected to contribute to the cost of the health insurance? Assuming that the student doesn't have to regularly see a doctor and therefore pay office co-pays weekly, bi-weekly, or monthly? Assuming that the student doesn't have prescription medications they need monthly, which also require co-payments for each medication?
I used figures provided by THE COLLEGE that I attend.

tampons/pads
shampoo & conditioner
toothpaste & mouthwash & floss
soap
over-the-counter meds; i.e. Tylenol/Advil/cold medicine/Tums
saline nasal spray/OTC allergy medication
contact lens solution
bandages & Neosporin
laundry detergent & fabric softener & bleach
make-up
hairspray/gel/mousse
deodorant
three meals a day
vitamins
entertainment/recreation (the occasional movie and dinner out or CD or DVD or video game or book read for pleasure or cup of coffee)
razors & shaving cream/gel
condoms/spermicide
Kleenex
lotion
towels & washcloths
underwear/bras/tights/nylons
clothing
shoes
socks
Parents kick you out when you're 18 (either maliciously/selfishly or "for your own good" or to teach you responsibility or because it's time you provided for yourself)?
You're in foster care and kicked out when you're 18?
Leaving home to get away from an abusive situation?
Leaving home so that your already over-extended family will have one less mouth to feed, one less person to care for?
Parents & child don't get along?
Nope. It's $10,302 for one year - 3 terms - for only 12 (not 15) credits per term while LIVING WITH PARENTS.
It would be $13,736 if the student was going for 4 terms.
Sure, in a perfect world. Where the economy hasn't gone down the drain and jobs are plentiful and when/if you find a job, you get full-time hours every week.
Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done or that that is the ideal way to go about things.
I believe that when you're a student in college, that should be your job. You should be able to give all your energy and attention to your studies.
I don't think he's inherently evil, no. I also don't think he should be making obscenely exorbitant amounts of money.
Are you aware of what he does with the money he earns?

reply from: Shenanigans

You could slip on the soap in the shower...
Well, that's what I keep reminding people when they start up on their "I'd hate to get injured going over seas".

reply from: QueenJ

I'm sorry. Are you not able to handle more than one train of thought at a time?
One out of three Americans under 65 were without health insurance at some point during 2007 and 2008.
ONE OUT OF THREE
[...]
86.7 million Americans were uninsured at one point during the past two years.
86.7 MILLION AMERICANS
[...]
. Nearly three out of four uninsured Americans were without health insurance for at least six months.
. Almost two-thirds were uninsured for nine months or more.
. Four out of five of the uninsured were in working families.
. People without health insurance are less likely to have a usual doctor and often go without screenings or preventative care.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/04/uninsured.epidemic.obama/
So, the magic money fairy flew over these two men and spread her magic money dust on them making the costs of their operations and medical care *POOF* disappear?
(Hint: I'm asking - Where did the money come from to pay for it all?)

reply from: QueenJ

Medicare isn't government funded health care?

reply from: Shenanigans

See, here's half the problem, people buying sh1t they don't need. I dont' floss and I dont' use mouth wash. I was called "poor" at school because I had a "cheap" toothbrush, not one of those fancy bendy ones with coloured plastic bristles. And guess what, I was the only one in class who had no fillings or dental problems, yet all those other brats and their fancy toothbrushes and floss had awful dental hygiene.
Instead of contact lenses, buy a pair of glasses, you'll save money on the solution.
And why does a girl need a razor? Save money, dont' shave your legs, wear pants!
Harden up, you don't need OTC pain killers. And if you gotta buy them, get the stuff that's like the cheap "no brand" name stuff. HOnestly, its the same quality, when you buy somethign with a brand name, you're buying a fancy logo, not the drug inside the box.
Fabric softner? Come on, you're not the queen of England.
Makeup? WTF? Sersiously? That's a few hundred dollars a year! When you're a student its a luxery that you can't afford. And really, at the age you college kids are at, your skin is fine enough without it. Don't wreck it by smearing dyes on it.
Clothes? Go to the "Op shops" or "second hand shops" or whatever you guys call them, you can pick up some awesome stuff in those places.
Shoes? I had one pair when I was a student. Doc Martins. They were expensive. But a 250$ pair of docs lasted me 10 years and they were comfy enough to wear all the time and decent looking enough to wear to church and work.
Bras? Those things are damn expensive (and it gets me in a feminist rage, because WTF are we paying for? cos it sure as hell can't be the material!!) But I had a bra that lasted me 15 years. When the clips at the back finally gave way, I went to the sewing shop and bought some new clips and sewed them in myself.
People need to get their priorities straight, you can be popular, pretty and slutty later when you have the money to fund it. Down in NZL its almost a right of passage to live like a pauper for the years of Uni. Lord knows I did. I'd survive off ten bucks a week for food, its all about being frugal. A 3$ bag of porridge can last four weeks, a 1.70 bag of rice can last four weeks! Buy bread on the cheap and freeze it.
College/Uni shouldn't be about who has the best car or the most shoes its about getting an education!
And really, I had a pair of pants that I held up with an extension cord, were patched with an old orange rugby sock and part of another pair of pants, they were referred to as my "bludging pants".
Oh, it helps to have no shame. But it simply proves who your real friends are when they still hang out with you when you're dressed like a nice smelling hobo.

reply from: QueenJ

I officially give up. You all are right. Screw people. They're all just a bunch of lazy whiners who need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Health care? We don't need no stinkin' health care! Hundreds of years ago people lived WITHOUT health care JUST FINE! Living wages? Wealth being spread out over the entire population instead of clutched in the hands of the richest 2%? That's just plain ridiculous! For we all know, that those who are wealthy have worked HARD for their money and deserve to sit by fires lit with $100 bills! OBVIOUSLY, if you're poor, you're JUST NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH. You're lazy. You DESERVE to be poor! BOOTSTRAPS, people, BOOTSTRAPS! Democracy? Well, that's just a LUXURY for the deservedly wealthy to buy and sell to benefit them and those like them. Education? Hell yeah, you should be in debt up to your ears for the rest of your life to be able to receive the degree you need to get any kind of decent paying job today! Housing? Another luxury that should only be afforded to those who can afford it! You homeless people? You should be GRATEFUL for that cardboard box you have and that bridge you live under! GRATEFUL, I say! And all you people living in substandard housing infested with roaches and riddled with malfunctioning plumbing and heating? Be GRATEFUL you aren't one those homeless people living in cardboard boxes under bridges! Your house is being foreclosed and you're being evicted? Well, it's your own DAMN fault for not working hard enough and not pulling your bootstraps up tightly enough! And food? You don't really need to eat nutritionally sound meals THREE whole times a day! You can survive living on water alone for what a week or so? SO DO IT!
In conclusion, CAPITALISM IS GRAND! Government being controlled by the wealthy and not by the people for the people? That's EXACTLY how it should be!
Also, BOOTSTRAPS, BOOTSTRAPS, BOOTSTRAPS!

reply from: joueravecfous

All right! There's the spirit! First faithman and now lefty's getting down with the prochoice. It doesn't take much to get to everyone's true colors. With enemies like these, who needs friends?

reply from: LexIcon

To beat the old dead horse with maggots swiggling out of its brains, and worms up in its sinus cavity, "person" is just a legal defintion. It can be removed or granted at the whims of society and govt. The Nazis took away "personhood" from the Jews, the SCOUS took away personhood (well, 4/5ths of it) from Blacks.
We can argue about them being born, but its a moot point, as its the application of "personhood rights" that are being debated.
And granting a right to life too foetuses is also redundant. The foetus already is alive, therefore, it will continue to live until such time as nature or man destory it. Therefore, you are not saying you think foetuses don't have a right to live, you're supporting that an individual can kill a foetus.
And a foetus is a human being, regardless of what the law says.
Thank you!
My hope in asking The Queen to define "person" was that she would care to look a tad beyond what the SCOTUS has strictly decreed as a constitutional matter, but then, why should she? Withholding the "person" label from "potential life" (the SCOTUS would not deign to define "it" as human) is what makes abortion-on-demand possible, "without apology or shame," to quote Her Majesty.
The question about rights is where they come from. They are either innate or acquired. My contention is that the right to life is innate, holding true for all living things, and The Queen mocked me for implying as much, but at best what she could have written is that the innate right to life of the mother trumps that of her "fetus" when other considerations are brought to bear, like preserving the mother's life and/or health as a matter of medical necessity.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Wait, wut? LOL!
Is dis guy trollin' or does he not understand the words he types?
Some Christfag already posted what the Bible says about charity. I guess Lefty only reads the parts where it says "go over there and phucking kill everybody."

reply from: EpicFailguy

All right! There's the spirit! First faithman and now lefty's getting down with the prochoice. It doesn't take much to get to everyone's true colors. With enemies like these, who needs friends?
And he predicts social and economic collapse under Obama's "socialist dictatorship." I predict that, if he is correct, he will be among the first found hanging by the neck from a flag pole with a sign stapled to his charred remains that says "ask me about my 401k."

reply from: EpicFailguy

Found one!
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Headlines in heaven: Leftsnemesis refuses to subsidize health care for Christ! God is pissed!
Seriously, though, it's the honest working people, the people who toil for his profits, that can't get proper medical care, but that's cool, cuz he says they are "expendable" anyway.
I guess he never had a family member who was in that position, needing care while being poor and "expendable..."
The rich say they are the ones who make our lives better and make our economy strong by "providing jobs." This is the argument for cutting taxes for the wealthy. The idea is that if we let them control the money, they'll do more good with it than the government could. The problem is that all they really care about is acquiring more money. They don't hesitate to fire us all and put us on the street after decades of loyal service. We're "expendable." They can just outsource to China or Mexico and exploit others instead.
For the record, does everyone understand who caused the great stock market crash? HINT: It wasn't the poor...
And does everyone understand what caused our current economic woes? HINT: Think corporate greed... I notice Lefty is not ranting about poor working class slobs having to subsidize corporate "bailouts."

reply from: LexIcon

LOTS of folks "caused our current economic woes," including members of the "poor working class" who wouldn't or couldn't pay mortgages that probably should not have been provided to them in the first place. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subprime_mortgage_crisis

reply from: SpitMcGee

Agreed.
Agreed.
True that.
Yeah. Nobody needs expensive clothes.
Good point. (I'm not a shoe person myself)
BURN THAT SH!T!
This is true. A big part of being responsible for yourself is prioritizing.
Right on!
Yeah! ...Wait, what?

reply from: Shenanigans

All right! There's the spirit! First faithman and now lefty's getting down with the prochoice. It doesn't take much to get to everyone's true colors. With enemies like these, who needs friends?
And he predicts social and economic collapse under Obama's "socialist dictatorship." I predict that, if he is correct, he will be among the first found hanging by the neck from a flag pole with a sign stapled to his charred remains that says "ask me about my 401k."
I predict nuclear war under Obama.
That or a zombie apocalypse.
Gosh, wouldn't that just be grand? Are you guys prepared? I am.

reply from: Shenanigans

Sounds like one of those "arguments" for abortion, actually, poor and expendable foetuses make for homicidal children. >_<
Yeah, that's the argument.
I don't know how it is in America, but down here the last lefty govt. hiked taxes so high, then spent all the money that under a centre right govt we're still paying higher taxes to try and get back up into the black. I pay a large amount of tax and I don't make a lot of money to begin with.
Frankly, I think they shoudl just say "right, whatever you earn, you pay 5% in tax" so, you earn 100$ that's 5$ tax, or you make 100,000 that's 5,000 tax. Or something like that.
Probably wasn't helped by people living beyond their means on credit cards and super mortagages and beach homes and new cars. Everyone has to own a piece of the blame in this, of course, some people's pieces will be bigger then others.

reply from: Shenanigans

Yeah! ...Wait, what?
You know, cos if you're wearing pants no one can see if you got the sasquatch thing goin' on. Plus, I read somewhere that the more you wear pants, snug fitting ones in particular, the pants then rub against the hairs destorying them, it takes time, but eventually the hairs on your legs are finer and thinner.
My friend used to buy a bag of sugar and make her own leg wax. Messy as hell, but when a 1kg bag of sugar costs $3 and a 200ml tub of wax cost $30 it makes sense to "make your own" and mess be damned. Just dont' do near where ants live, was her advice.
But then, you can mush up the ants and use them as an anti-bacterial cos ants have some special coating on them that stops them getting bacteria, viruses, or fungi. Plus, that stuff that comes out of them when you smush them that smells like a curiosities museum is also a really good anti-microbrial.
Seriously! Its a win win!! No hairy legs, no ants and no infections!

reply from: B0zo

Loyal service?
They work for free?
What about people who work for one company and then quit and go to another company to get a better job and better pay? Is that disloyal too?

reply from: B0zo

Until the ideal arrives, where there is a will, there is a way.
You've made it seem impossible.

reply from: Ianbrett

A. Defecting isn't all that easy of a process.
B. Just because I disagree with the way my country is run means that I should leave it?
You watch the news, yes? How many news stories have you seen about European countries imploding in on themselves? None? So, like, they're actually living and surviving over there? Imagine that.
Greece? Their debt to GDP is way out of whack and they are in the midst of an economic meltdown! Yet another socialist-thinking victory. I'm sure there are lots of Greeks, Cubans, etc, that TRULY enjoy the fruits of Socialism. Europe has far more civil unrest, car bombings, etc, per capita, than we do. And they are slowly becoming Muslim. The vacuum left by crumbling secular Christianity is one that is being filled by a religion far less tolerant of free will than Christianity. So Europe is "living" and "surviving"? So what? So have slaves throughout history. This doesn't necessarily equate to prosperity!

reply from: Ianbrett

Queen- The FDR 2nd Bill of Rights is one of the singlemost IDIOTIC and IMPOSSIBLE concepts to ever be proposed. It doesn't take a genius to see that to guarantee certain of those "rights" to certain people would require impeding someone else's same or similar right. Most of the "rights" are desirable things... perhaps goals even, but no government ever has nor ever will have the ability to implement. Nor would most of us ever want these "rights" anyway. Btw, a "right" is typically a negative thing- ie- a freedom FROM something, not a guarantee to receive something.
Hey, I know! Maybe if we require the abortion of... oh, let's say 50% of pregnancies, then there would be less people for the gov't to PROVIDE for and plus the added benefit of reducing our CO2 output, thus global warming... er cooling... er change... er polar... ANYWAY... plus we'll need the govt to come up with a magical money printing press... whoops, I think we are awfully close to that now... Yeah... I've changed my mind. Let's have Obama and Barney just pass a law requiring everybody to "experience" and "have" prosperity... UTOPIA, here I come!

reply from: QueenJ

Where exactly did I mock you? Don't fall in the pro-life trap of spreading misinformation now.

reply from: QueenJ

Why is it that dentists recommend flossing and using mouthwash? Do they get some kind of kickbacks from the floss and mouthwash companies?

Contact lenses can be medically necessary.
It's great that you're confident enough with yourself that you don't feel compelled to conform to societal standards of beauty. But many women don't posses this same level of self-confidence and self-esteem.

There's no need for OTC pain killers? You've obviously never suffered from killer cramps or migraines or all-over body aches & pains. You also must be as graceful as a butterfly, since you obviously never find yourself stubbing your toe, falling down, slamming your hand in a door, or any of the many other incidents us more clumsily-inclined folk are prone to. Also, acetaminophen? It is recommended for reducing fevers. Guess you never get feverish either, eh? Ibuprofen? Used for the same things, as well.
And I only used Tylenol & Advil in my list because they are the most easily recognizable brands. I buy the generic acetaminophen, but still call it Tylenol. Same with ibuprofen. In fact, in the U.S. (at least in my part; not sure if it's a nationwide chain), at Costco you can get two huge bottles of acetaminophen (like 500 ct. each) for around $6 or $7. Same for ibuprofen.
Nope. If I were the Queen of England, I'd be sending out my laundry to be cleaned and folded instead of buying the $2 box of fabric softener sheets that last for quite awhile. What can I say? I like when my clothes smell nice and fresh. Shoot me for desiring this most exorbitant of luxuries.

We all aren't out going to the Mac and L'Oreal counters at expensive department stores to get our make-up. Going to the local drug-store and getting the cheap stuff works just as nicely. And make-up? It's not always used for superficial reasons. Some of us have things like scars and mass break-outs of pimples (for which special facial cleansers and toners are needed) and Rosacea and birth marks for which we use make-up to cover up so that we can go out in public and NOT be stared at every five minutes everywhere we go. Screw us for wanting to feel and look normal.
I have no problem with going to thrift shops. I, myself, LOVE going to Goodwill (a popular U.S. second hand shop), but no matter where you buy your clothes, they are going to require some money to purchase. And lately, much to my chagrin, thrift shops seem to be raising their prices on a regular basis and sometimes aren't as thrifty as one might believe.
Some of us don't have $250 at a time to spend on a pair of shoes, no matter how well constructed they are or how long they'll last in the long run. We have to make due with purchasing less superior versions of foot coverings and end up replacing them every few months or so. Such is life.
For those of us who were blessed/cursed with larger than average breasts, we have to dole out the big bucks for bras that will actually fit and support and lessen the ever-so-annoying back pain that comes with carrying melons on our front sides. You practically have to go to a specialty store if your cup size is larger than the "average" Cs and Bs that are the most widely carried sizes at regular department stores.

Where did I say otherwise?
Are we getting into a who's more frugal than whom contest now? I'll make is easy. YOU WIN! Gold medal and gold stars for you!
Look, I absolutely agree that frugal is the way to go when you're not raking in the dough. I'm all about coupons and sales and clearances and buying second-hand. But it wasn't like I was suggesting overly extravagant items in my list of personal items above thread. They are just necessaries that one needs to get through the day. Nowhere in my list did I make room for days at the spa and french-tip nails and $200 haircuts & highlights every week. There was no mention of Gucci or Prada or BMW or Mercedes Benz or 5 - $10 apiece cocktails on Friday nights and dinners of lobsters and caviar. You might want to tone down your self-righteous/holier-than-thou attitude a tad.

reply from: Milhouse

I was reading today about this socialist hippy. Some of you guys would hate him, I know, especially you guys who are fairly comfortable financially and worried about the government taking your money to help a bunch of worthless bums.
His name was Jesus, and let me tell you, he was a died in the wool socialist! He was always telling his followers to give their stuff to the poor, and that God would provide for them just like he does for the little birdies. Imagine that! I work hard for my money, and I know God wouldn't want me giving it away. I'm sure God respects my ambition and drive, and would agree that I deserve to keep all my money, even if I have a lot more than I need.
Just listen to what this commie fag "Jesus" had to say! If he was spouting that nonsense on this forum, you guys would surely give him a piece of your minds!
http://www.christiansocialistpartyusa.org/apps/wiki/outline-of-christian-socialism

reply from: Milhouse

I remember reading about this lady who a lot of you would have agreed with. She used to go on about the people who were poor and dragged down our society. She didn't think it was right for everybody to have to pay taxes to help/support those who were unable to provide well for themselves and their families. She figured them what earns a dollar should keep it, not be forced to give some to some stupid people who maybe weren't smart enough to accumulate wealth, or for whatever reason, lived in poverty.
Those of you who are so angry about any mention of "socialism" would probably agree with her on a lot of things. Her name was Margaret Sanger. She called those welfare queens who kept having kids they couldn't afford to feed "human weeds." Some of you can relate, I'm sure.

reply from: B0zo

Really?
You mean Jesus was advocating a socialist form of government that forces the citizen to pay the government, and was not beseeching his followers to give voluntarily?
Please cite the scriptures that back up your assertion.
Do you understand there is a difference between being generous voluntarily, and the "generosity" of a government that at the point of a gun forces citizens to support the programs they use to buy votes, keeps a large "commission" for itself, and doles out the rest for programs that might not be the most efficient use of the plunder?
Nobody has denied that generosity is a good thing. For a Christian it is necessary, but that does not mean the Christian must support wasteful government programs. The Christian can give directly to the needy and not through a middleman who keeps too much for himself.

reply from: B0zo

Your problem is that you see the government as the solution.
The government is not our momma and daddy, or at least it should not be.
To oppose socialism is not to oppose being generous and helping the poor and the needy.

reply from: LexIcon

Where exactly did I mock you? Don't fall in the pro-life trap of spreading misinformation now.
You wrote, "I hope you didn't hurt yourself making that GIANT leap there."

reply from: Milhouse

Is tithing voluntary? You can just not tithe if you want, right?
I think what you want is for the Catholic Church to be in charge, essentially the government. It's OK for them to do everything you don't want the government to do, right? I'm not convinced they are not "keeping a large "commission" for themselves and doling out the rest for "programs that might not be the most efficient use of the plunder."
I get that nobody is forced to be Catholic, so don't even go there. The U.S. also doesn't force anyone to maintain citizenship...
I would like to also point out that the people who make the most money tend to get the most benefit from tax funded projects, so it seems only fair to me that they pay a higher percentage of their earnings (what they claim, at least, since I understand that most of these people feel entitled to cheat when the opportunity arises, and there are many, many ways this can be done)

reply from: Milhouse

Since that is basically what socialism is, you are wrong. Your "problem," I believe, is that you are among a large number of people who oppose the word socialism and all the things you associate with it.
Umm, socialism bad!
Helping each other based on need, good!
Socialism mean helping each other? Me no understand! Socialist bad people! Enemy to U.S!

reply from: B0zo

I can be or not be a Catholic or a Baptist or a Pagan. I can bind myself to their creeds or not.
It's VOLUNTARY.
I don't have to give through my church--I can give directly to the needy.
That's much different than the government pointing a gun at my head and telling me to pay for someone's education or abortion.
And you will not find Jesus advocating socialism as a form of government.
lol--yes, anyone who does not see it your way is stooopid.

reply from: B0zo

You have thoroughly bought into the "politics of envy."
It's not about them paying their fair share, but it's about those damn rich people who have so much and poor me has so little, and they should be taken down a couple of pegs.

reply from: B0zo

Queenj,
Are you saying that every penny of the college tuition and all living expenses while going to college should be provided to the student?
Should the student be responsible for any portion of the expense?
Should the student be 100% funded regardless of the college or university and regardless of whether getting just an associates degree or going to medical or law school?
If the student is rich or has rich parents, should he or she still be funded by the state? (Or under your system, would this family be stripped of their riches?)

reply from: Milhouse

You can also be or not be a U.S. citizen.
IT'S VOLUNTARY!
I anticipated this response, of course. Did you not read my post?
Do you pay taxes now? And does the government put a gun to your head? Do you tithe? And if you do not tithe, will the Catholic Church allow you to take communion?
Allow me to emphasize the fact that I am in no way asserting that you should be forced to pay for anyone's abortion. I do, however, insist that we have a moral obligation to ensure that the basic needs of every human being are met, including basic education, food, shelter, and medical care.
A "form of government?" I think you misunderstand. Our churches are also governing bodies, and I doubt you resent your Church assuming that role. I think the issue for you is that you feel that is all the government we need.
If you read your Bible, you will see that Jesus certainly advocated socialism. In a Catholic nation, the Church might well be all the government we need, but ours is not a Catholic nation.
If you were offended, perhaps you might have thought twice before drawing first blood with condescending sarcasm. I am not the girl you were arguing with, and I did not appreciate your seemingly taking your frustrations out on me.
How predictable. Rather than respond to the point, you rely on a generic ad hominem accusation with no basis in reality. I am myself a retired businessman, and was quite satisfied with my success. Unlike many of my peers, I understand the resentment you refer to, but also understand that all persons who assume a socialist bent do not fit that stereotype. I felt it was just that a successful man pay a greater percentage of his earnings in taxes. I benefited much more from the roads, bridges, education provided to my employees, and other tax funded benefits than others.

reply from: B0zo

We have a moral obligation to fee the hungry and clothe the naked. That that is the role of government is debatable, but we are already there, so I can live with the system as it is, but see no reason to expand it further. And what would "basic education" be? Would that including the government footing the bill for me to go through law school?
I don't see it there, and neither does the Catholic Church. The previous pope spoke strongly against Socialism.
I thought you were one of the other posters assuming a new name and playing games. My apologies.
That's a good point, and those with high incomes are taxed at a greater percentage.
I don't see that as necessarily fair, however, since even if the percentage is the same, you still pay more, and are not paying just a flat amount.
The way I see it is that the most important thing is that whatever funds the government collects are put to good and efficient use. All productive people are hurt by government waste regardless of whether they pay much or little in the way of taxes.
I am not of the mind that the government knows best what to do with our money or that it can be more compassionate with it. It seems to be more compassionate to itself and the needs of the special interests.

reply from: Banned Member

Hey Millhouse.. I am disinclined to believe that you were ever a business man. What is a business man actually. I'm betting you were not an actual self employed business man but rather some low level subordinate with a suit and tie and mundane duties. I'm guessing that you had benefits given to you by your employer and that you envied the union guys out in the shop that couldn't be fired no matter how poorly they performed. I believe that if your pants aren't actually on fire, that at the very least, they are smoldering. You don't think like a boss and you don't exhibit an understanding of the principles of personal responsibility that are second nature to the real job creators. What exactly was your business and what was your position if I might be so bold to ask?

reply from: B0zo

Hey Millhouse.. I am disinclined to believe that you were ever a business man. What is a business man actually. I'm betting you were not an actual self employed business man but rather some low level subordinate with a suit and tie and mundane duties. I'm guessing that you had benefits given to you by your employer and that you envied the union guys out in the shop that couldn't be fired no matter how poorly they performed. I believe that if your pants aren't actually on fire, that at the very least, they are smoldering. You don't think like a boss and you don't exhibit an understanding of the principles of personal responsibility that are second nature to the real job creators. What exactly was your business and what was your position if I might be so bold to ask?
He's only made 5 posts.
Why not take him at his word--at least for now?
Business people can have socialistic sympathies too.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Hey Millhouse.. I am disinclined to believe that you were ever a business man. What is a business man actually. I'm betting you were not an actual self employed business man but rather some low level subordinate with a suit and tie and mundane duties. I'm guessing that you had benefits given to you by your employer and that you envied the union guys out in the shop that couldn't be fired no matter how poorly they performed. I believe that if your pants aren't actually on fire, that at the very least, they are smoldering. You don't think like a boss and you don't exhibit an understanding of the principles of personal responsibility that are second nature to the real job creators. What exactly was your business and what was your position if I might be so bold to ask?
You're probably right for once. Everybody knows that you have to be a ruthless, greedy bastard to be successful in business.
Either that or some lazy mama's boy that inherited his wealth and never worked a day in his life, amirite?

reply from: B0zo

Everyone who is not in business and who never had the courage to think outside of the box and take a step outside of the safety and security of having an employer knows this.

reply from: Banned Member

Nice rant Queeny..
Any intelligent discussion of this matter must include consideration of the human nature factor. Human nature is such that we all want it easy. Reality dictates that we can't all have it easy. History informs us that systems that are set up (supposedly) with the high minded ideal of making everything easy and nice for everyone.. always fail. Marxism is a fanciful Utopian and failed philosophy. Collectivism has no example of success that one can point to. Socialism is the main contributing factor to the fall of the Roman empire. They voted themselves the treasury and became weakened beyond recovery. (We're next) The biggest and most obvious draw back of socialism/communism is that they sabotage motivation. Examples abound. Let's just consider this one idea: If college education were free.. how many freeloading underachieving binge drinking screw-offs would be cutting class and just using college as an excuse to escape the restrictions of home life and their parents influence and be free to go party nuts ape sh!t? I know they already do this but not so much the ones who are self financing their way through. When I went, I was dead serious in my studies as I was the only guy paying the bills and solely responsible for my student loans.
This subject is far too big to be properly discussed on a message board. You are young Queeny and unless you are extremely lucky, you will eventually be faced with the realities of the negative aspects of human nature. The understanding (or misunderstandings) of human nature is the thing that separates us from each other philosophically. The question is.. will you be able to swallow your pride and open your mind enough to consider the importance of lensing your world view from the standpoint of human nature? All things must be looked at from this point of view and the more you actually understand human nature the better you will be able to predict the consequences of your's and others decision making.

reply from: Banned Member

Hey Millhouse.. I am disinclined to believe that you were ever a business man. What is a business man actually. I'm betting you were not an actual self employed business man but rather some low level subordinate with a suit and tie and mundane duties. I'm guessing that you had benefits given to you by your employer and that you envied the union guys out in the shop that couldn't be fired no matter how poorly they performed. I believe that if your pants aren't actually on fire, that at the very least, they are smoldering. You don't think like a boss and you don't exhibit an understanding of the principles of personal responsibility that are second nature to the real job creators. What exactly was your business and what was your position if I might be so bold to ask?
You're probably right for once. Everybody knows that you have to be a ruthless, greedy bastard to be successful in business.
Either that or some lazy mama's boy that inherited his wealth and never worked a day in his life, amirite?
I am right.. but not because you said so.
I am a self employed business man who works harder than anyone who has ever worked for me. If I'm ruthless it's for the purpose of purging out underachievers. Your generational pampering and limited life experience renders you naive on the subject of business. Start a business, get screwed over by a few underachievers, back stabbers and thieves and then get back to me with your preachy admonishments.

reply from: QueenJ

Where exactly did I mock you? Don't fall in the pro-life trap of spreading misinformation now.
You wrote, "I hope you didn't hurt yourself making that GIANT leap there."
LOL! Seriously? ... Seriously? ... ... ... no, but Seriously? If so? LOLforever&ever&evertimesinfinitysquared&reflectedinamirror.

reply from: QueenJ

Yes.
No.
I believe that currently financial aid can only be used towards a school that is accredited. I think that's a reasonable requirement.
Yes. Medical and law school shouldn't be restricted to only those who can pay for it. It should be based on intellect, ability, and dedication.

If parents can afford to pay for their child's higher education, they should be required to do so.
I don't see anything wrong with the wealthy putting money (that they would normally use to install 24-karat gold toilets & bidets in each of the 29 bathrooms of their unnecessarily enormous mansions) towards helping their fellow man.
I'm really having an incredibly difficult time processing so many people's inability to grasp the very simple concept of compassion.

reply from: QueenJ

B0zo,
Can you go into an ER and get a yearly Pap smear and gynecological exam? Can you go into an ER twice a year and get your teeth cleaned (or a root canal or a tooth removed or braces)? Can you go into an ER and receive chemotherapy treatments? Radiation? Immuno-therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive dialysis? Can you go into an ER and receive therapy for depression and/or bipolar disorder and/or schizophrenia and/or any of the other mental illnesses? Can you go into an ER and get your birth control prescription filled every month? Your anti-depressants? Your anti-psychotics? Your anti-seizure medication? Your cholesterol reduction medication? Your blood thinners? Your insulin/needles/blood sugar monitor machine and test strips? Can you go into an ER and get speech therapy or physical therapy? Can you go into an ER and receive hospice care at the end of your life? Or palliative care at the end of a fight with a terminal illness? Can you go into the ER and get your eyes checked? Can you go into the ER to get regular prenatal check-ups for an uncomplicated pregnancy? Can you go to an ER and stay there to recover from a stroke? Surgery? Car accident? Can you get a cleft palate repaired in the ER? Can you get a mastectomy in the ER? Can you get tubes in your ears in the ER? Can you get fitted for a leg brace or prothesis? Can you have an expert help you learn how to use it? Can you get a colostomy and receive education on how to live life with one?

reply from: QueenJ

Not a rant. I'm serious. Dead mf-ing serious. Golden rule? That's for chumps! Since you all have so graciously shown me the light, I have changed my major from social work to DOING WHATEVER IS NECESSARY FOR THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR. From here on out, it's all about the BENJAMINS, baby! As it should be, y/y?

How old/young are you ASSuming I am?
ANNOYINGLYMINDNUMBLINGLYVERBOSECLOSEMINDEDIGNORANTRACISTSEXISTAHOLESAYSWHAT?

reply from: B0zo

Who are "the wealthy" and how do you define it? Do you think "the wealthy" have enough so that they can be plundered and all of that wealth spread around will make it good for the rest of us, and we can all have free education and health care?
If I gave someone money to go to college that would be "compassion." If someone pointed a gun at my head and made me give money to someone so they could go to college, that would NOT be "compassion," and not for the person pointing the gun, either, especially when he would take a generous commission for himself.
I don't see why the student could not be compassionate and fair, and not expect others who are not going to college to pay for his advanced degree.
I'm not saying there is no place for helping those in need and for compassion. I don't think the government is the solution, because the government is so wasteful and does everything so poorly and inefficiently, however. But it is hard to take lessons about compassion from those who are so cold-hearted towards the scores of unborn, who are discarded so ruthlessly every day.

reply from: B0zo

No I can't go to ER for all those things.
I especially wouldn't want someone else to pay for "birth control."
Geez, do you want someone else to pay for EVERYTHING?
Do you assert that everyone in the above who is in need is going without?
I know people who are on some kind of state program and have all their dental and medical needs taken care of. What is that all about?

reply from: B0zo

I don't see anything wrong with someone remaining abstinent and not expecting others to pay for "birth control" and their abortion when birth control fails, do you? It would be very compassionate of that person to be so self-disciplined and not expect someone else to pay for their fun, and especially not expcet someone else to pay for their less-than-compassionate act of knocking off an inconvenient child.

reply from: LexIcon

So, you've decided to become an abortionist instead of simply being an apologist for the industry. Put another way, you've changed your major from social work to anti-social work because the pay is so much better.
BTW, "LOLforever&ever&evertimesinfinitysquared&reflectedinamirror" is cute and catchy, but "LOL to the nth degree" captures the essence and saves bits.

reply from: EpicFailguy

Hey Millhouse.. I am disinclined to believe that you were ever a business man. What is a business man actually. I'm betting you were not an actual self employed business man but rather some low level subordinate with a suit and tie and mundane duties. I'm guessing that you had benefits given to you by your employer and that you envied the union guys out in the shop that couldn't be fired no matter how poorly they performed. I believe that if your pants aren't actually on fire, that at the very least, they are smoldering. You don't think like a boss and you don't exhibit an understanding of the principles of personal responsibility that are second nature to the real job creators. What exactly was your business and what was your position if I might be so bold to ask?
You're probably right for once. Everybody knows that you have to be a ruthless, greedy bastard to be successful in business.
Either that or some lazy mama's boy that inherited his wealth and never worked a day in his life, amirite?
I am right.. but not because you said so.
I am a self employed business man who works harder than anyone who has ever worked for me. If I'm ruthless it's for the purpose of purging out underachievers. Your generational pampering and limited life experience renders you naive on the subject of business. Start a business, get screwed over by a few underachievers, back stabbers and thieves and then get back to me with your preachy admonishments.
Wait, wut? WTF are you talking about? My "limited life experience?" My "generational pampering?" I don't know who you think I am (or who the hell you think you are, either), but allow me to set the record straight here, cuz you know nothing about me, sport.
I grew up poor, and quit school to work in a factory when I was 14. (that should say a little something about my age) I worked in that factory for 22 years, and saved every penny it didn't take to feed myself, my ma, and my brothers and sisters.
I felt that there was enough business for me to work for myself and get a little piece of the pie rather than working my fingers to the bone for the rest of my life for just enough to survive, so when I had saved enough money, I started my own business.
I learned very quickly that established businesses don't take kindly to competition, despite pretty speeches about opportunity and such. I wasn't even a good blip on the radar, hardly competition at all, but the good folks in my area immediately set out to ruin me. They sold their product at below cost, taking a deliberate loss in order to prevent me from making a profit, thereby financially destroying me in a little under a year, despite my 18 hr. days and the sacrifices I made to try to make it work.
Now I'm sure you're going to say it was my fault, I was just stupid, whatever, but the fact is that the majority of small businesses fail in the first year. Why? Because the established businesses have already gotten big enough to squash them. The only way to succeed is to catch a tit and hang on, cuz mama will throw you to the wolves if the relationship is deemed to no longer benefit her. That's just the way it works.
I had the brains to succeed, but my conscience was prohibitive. I understood that all I had to do was get in bed with the big boys and bide my time until I was in a position to cut their throats like they had cut mine, but I honestly wanted no more part of it. I couldn't see how they slept at night thinking only of money. I wanted financial security, I just didn't want it that badly.
So, I left off all ideas of working for myself, but my mom got scared and said "you're moving with your auntie and uncle in Bel-air."
i begged and pleaded with her day after day but she packed my suitcase and sent me on my way she gave me a kiss and then she gave me my ticket so i put my walkman on and said i might as well kick it
first class yo this is bad drinkin orange juice out of a champaine glass is this what the people of bel air live like hmm this might be allright but wait i hear persy boy liein is this the type of place they should send this cool cat i don't think so we'll see when i get there i hope they're prepared for the prince of bel air
well ah when the plain landed and i came out there was a dude that looked like a cop standin there with my name out i aint tryin to get arrested yet i just got here i sprang with the quickness of lightning and dissapeared I whistled for a cab
And when it came near
The license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror
If anything i can say this cab is rare
But i thought naw forget it yo homes to Bel Air
I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8
And i yelled to the cabyo homes smell ya later
I looked at my kingdom
I was finally there
To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air

reply from: Banned Member

Hey.. you really are an epic fail guy. My apologies to the prince.

reply from: QueenJ

So, your assertion that people in the U.S. can go into any ER and receive the health care they need was wrong.
Because preventing unwanted pregnancy and abortion is ... bad ... ?
Because birth control is ALWAYS prescribed for prevention of pregnancy?
Everything that a person needs to survive and live, yes.
Of course not everyone is. There are rarely, if any, absolutes in the life.
You'll have to be more specific or I'll be disinclined to believe you.
I know that here in Oregon, you can't get Medicaid if you are 18 and over and/or aren't currently pregnant.
I know that here in Oregon, even if you have Medicaid, the only dental coverage included is for emergency situations. Preventive care (which is the most important and needed and logical to provide) is not covered.

reply from: QueenJ

Because you should only be able to have sex if you're well off and can afford the insanely high cost of most birth control? NO SEX FOR POOR PEOPLE!

reply from: QueenJ

WTF are you talking about?
So, what you're saying is that I should have just stopped at "timesinfinity?" That everything else included in the statement was so excessive as to make said statement utterly absurd? Huh. Interesting.

reply from: QueenJ

How old/young are you ASSuming I am? Or do you actually know how old I am?

reply from: LexIcon

WTF are you talking about?
Sarcasm.
No, not absurd. Redundant, like writing "LOLforever&ever&evertimesinfinitysquared&reflectedinahallofmirrors."
"LOL (insert lazy 8 here)" also works.

reply from: QueenJ

Ah. You may want to leave that to those who are skilled in the art.
It was meant to be redundant.


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