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by: poppa

help the people of new orleans. it is a sad day in this country when you have fellow citizens dieing from lack of food and water. our govt. can supply flawless logistics to over a million soldiers but cant airdrop food and water to its own people trapped in the south. that thought sickens me. it has been over a week and no mobile water purification has arrived when there are several of them at fort hood texas and fort polk la. food has not been dropped by the govt. i guess we only do that for iraqis and afghanis, write any govt.official you can and slam them for not doing thier jobs

reply from: sarah

I'm sure we can be doing a better job, but I don't think it's been over a week, hasn't it only been a couple of days?
Hopefully things will improve quickly! Those poor people.
It is hard to imagine this is happening in America.

reply from: yoda

It's really strange to watch the news and see all the politicans saying "help is on the way" in one shot, and then seeing live video of the Superdome, where people are waiting for help, dying all around and being left where they die. "Hundreds of busses" are on the way, says the govenor of LA, and yet the live shots show no busses anywhere. And then they had the mayor of Houston explaining why he was turning people away from the Astrodome, thus stopping the evacuation.

I don't know where the f-troop cavalry is, but it sure isn't where it's needed.

reply from: Hereforareason

It's not been a week yet. Hurrican Katrina hit New Orleans Monday morning I beleive. It's Thursday. Yes they need help. I"m glad to see a thread about it here. But don't start slamming Americans yet. There is no way they are going to sit back and watch this.

Amber

reply from: EllenMyers

It's a shame a lot of those people could have left if they could have afforded the gas to leave. New Orleans is an example of God's wrath upon a city of sin. Just like the rapture God took those who were saved and left the unrepetant sinners to suffer in Hell on Earth. Your money would better spent helping innocent babies. Operation Rescue is heading to Washington D.C. soon to show support for John Roberts so you should give your money to them instead, not to some town where they go around expose their breasts for beads.

reply from: yoda

Your compassion knows no bounds, does it?

reply from: chooselife

Yoda - you know how many wonderful upright people are in Washington DC!!! Apparently Ellen did not see the loads of small children and infants who were suffering. Let's see...give money to support John Roberts who I am not sure is really on our side...or send money to help children who are dehydrated, scared, feverish, and hungry.....hmmmm....

reply from: poppa

im not slamming americans just the politicians it shouldnt take more than 24 hours to get food and water to people in the U.S.

reply from: Valfar

While I see your point, it bears mentioning that our troops in Iraq haven't quite received "flawless logistics". Ask those victims of IEDs who didn't have armored vehicles, for example.

It's funny. The muslim extremists recently said the exact same thing. It seems you people have an awful lot in common.

Regardless of your stance on any of these issues, it should really baffle you (if not downright disgust you) that leadership in Washington managed to decend on Washington within hours in the middle of a recess to pass emergency legislation for Terri Schiavo yet it's been 4 days since the hurricane and they are JUST NOW (Thursday evening) attempting to appropriate funds for the relief effort.

Bush waited until 2 days after the hurricane to even make his way back to Washington to address the disaster. In the interim, he had time to deliver Iraq war propaganda speeches in California. What about the thousands of dead/injured/sick? What about the millions who have lost their homes and livlihoods?

Glad to see the priorities of the federal government are in place.

Now they have rampant looting, anarchy, assaults, rapes, snipers, etc. Where is the "help"?

reply from: mom5

It's funny. The muslim extremists recently said the exact same thing. It seems you people have an awful lot in common.

D- Not funny but scary..."you people" surely doesn't refer to everyone posting on this board, because I grant you, I do not agree with Ms. Ellen's statement.

reply from: Valfar

I apologize as this is neither the subject matter nor the time for this kind of stuff. I wasn't refering to the people on this board in general but more the people who hold the same opinions of the poster I quoted.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Since you are all getting off the topic.... I will put you back on it..

The U.S. probably lost an entire city! I've heard about towns and villages in the U.S. getting washed away or burnt to the ground, but a major US city is a first!

Americans, especially our government do not want to admit it, They need outside help. 20 foreign nations offered help, we should accept. Everything from fresh water and food, clothes, medical care to foreign soldiers policing the streets. (That's were Americans would have the biggest problem)

reply from: AshMarie88

It wasn't "God's wrath" that made the hurricane, and it certainly wasn't "God's wrath" that hundreds of innocent people died.

"Our money would be better spent helping innocent babies"?? How about, as well as helping babies, help other innocent people that lost everything too?

reply from: EllenMyers

Maybe you ought to rethink that. New Orleans was about to host a huge festival of faggotry but God decided to put an end to that. No doubt God cleansed the land of a bunch of sodomites in the process. He said the punishment for sodomy was death and He proved it that day. Considering all the fighting, murders and rapes going on in the city right now it looks like He missed a few.

http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html

reply from: Allizdog2000

I agree with you Ellen Myers! New Orleans was host to a big drunken gay fest. It wasn't just to punish New Orleans, the whole US is also being punished. It's like breaking a foot, an arm or a hand. That limb suffers from the wound, as does your whole body which now has to compensate for the lack of use of that limb.

As it says in the bible the coming of the end will be like labor pains on a woman. There will be much more and more frequent. The Tsunami was just last year. It claim about 300,000 lives. This Hurricane destoryed a whole US city.

reply from: Hereforareason

Whether or not this was brought on as punishment by God is not a reason for us not to help! There are old people, young peope.. babies dieing in the streets!! They need help. Anyone who can call themselves pro life, yet turn their backs on so many people in desperate need like this, are not true pro lifers. Period. These people have lost homes, posessions and family membres. They do not have water or food or shelter in New Orleans. It's been a couple days now. Water all over. Bodies lieing around. It is toxic. So, what can you do to help?

donate blood to the red cross.
Donate money to the red cross.
Don't have money but want to donate something? Check this out. http://www.coffeecup.com/hurricane/ The person who gave me this link checked them out.
Basically for those who don't want to click on the link, they are in Texas and will have acces to the people who need these items. You can donate comfort items. They specify no money. Check them out and do something.

"In as much as you have done it unto one of the least of these my brothren, you have done it unto me."

Amber

reply from: mom5

I slept on your post last night, got to thinking about something. It's very obvious that you too are upset with the actions of the government, FEMA, etc...do you feel like this...

"I feel so helpless for the hurricane victims often wishing there is something that I can do. I have donated money to charity organizations, who plan to help the innocent people. At times I feel hopeless, because our government seems to be not responding like it should. Can't our government protect these innocent people from assaults? Yeah, I'm really upset and feel like all I can do at times is pray."

Well, Valfar/D, you can ignore that last part about praying...but is that kinda how you feel about these hurricane victims?

Everywhere I mentioned HURRICANE replace with the word, abortion.

Everywhere I mentioned INNOCENT PEOPLEreplace with the words, innocent unborn children.

That's how pro-lifers feel about abortion...

Thanks for reading.

reply from: poppa

there is to much innocence lost down there for it to be gods judgement and wrath and for someone to use that as an exuse to not support our fellow americans is just as sinful as the people who participated in the gay festival remember the old line "HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE" well i hear allot of stones being thrown in the above statements and i would like to thank you for being so perfect. i guess the world needs more perfect people like you....

personnaly from what i have heard and witnessed i truly believe that allot of it comes down to blatent raceism by our govt. i guarantee if the overwhelming majority of the people were white we would be watching a whole different scenario infolding down there

reply from: Alexandra

While I agree that this may have been God's judgment, that's no reason not to help whomever we can. The dead are beyond help and prayers...we should help whoever's left if we can.

Now swinging this back to the pro-life subject, while I don't condone fornication, that doesn't mean I can't help a poor girl in trouble.

Jesus also told us "do unto others."

reply from: poppa

to valfair

i have yet to hear of any american soldier starving or dieing of thirst. when i served in the first gulf war water and rations were plentifull and was never a concern

improvised explosives dont fall into the logistics category the fall under the enemy tactics of war.

one reason that we have so many un armored vehicles is not every military unit had that stuff and until recently was really not needed. when i served none of our humvees or cuctvees were armored because they usualy were not in the main line of battle they are called support vehicles. the armored humvees were for the military police and cavalry troop commanders following our bradleys and abrams because that is what they used as thier tctical vehicles. it was a verry small percent of humvees and other non direct combat vehicles such as hemtt, 5 tons, deuces or construction equipment that have armor plateing and after the un-forseen events occuring in iraq we have made drastic changes to our combat plans and have adapted and overcome the new obtsicles presented by enemy forces in iraq reletively quickly and any one who would argue that fact does not realize exactly how many unarmored support vehicles the millitary has.

reply from: AshMarie88

What about the CHILDREN that died in the hurricane/flood? Was it STILL okay? What about pregnant women, their unborn children?

And I still don't think God did it. It was a natural disaster caused by the earth, not God.

reply from: scopia1982

I agree with you 110%Poppa! I guess using our military, epsecially the Reserve and National Guard fighting a needless war for oil, than being here at home and going to help those in disaster areas where they would normally go is more important. If all our troops were here instead of Iraq fighting for the cause of big oils profits, they could go to New Orleans and Mississippi and help out with rescue and keeping law and order. I daresay that we would not be having the problems in New Orleans that we are having if they were here doing what they normally would be doing helping with relief instead of fighting for the big oil companies.

reply from: sarah

The mayor of N.O. is on record saying she got the 40,000 troops she asked for. Our National Guard is not stretched to the limit, we have plenty of military personel avaiable at home.
One might want to remember that the very first day National Guard was on the scene doing search and rescue missions and their presence has increased accordingly. It would also serve to remember that this wasn't just a hurricane officials were and are dealing with. There was a flood that followed after the levy broke. This was not an oridinary situation. It's rather difficult to go about the business of help when the city is pretty much under water.

And let's remember that the primary responsibility for local security belongs to civilian agencies. The onus is on the mayor of N.O. and the governor of that state. But, even still the mayor received the troops she asked for.

America is well equipped to handle the war on terror and any domestic catastrophe.

reply from: Navynate

Scopia,

You are wrong on every account. A.) We didn't go to war for oil, the links between Saddam and Al
Quida are numerous and have been documented and proven by the documents found in Iraq after Saddam was deposed by us. And President Bush never said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11, just that he had alot to do with terrorism and that getting Saddam was the first step in fighting terrorism. B.) There are thousands of available National Guard troops to help the relief effort of NO and Miss. as well as other devestated areas. It's the police in NO who haven't kept order in the looting and have also had members who are looting themselves. Don't blame the federal government for that. Dems want to blame Bush for this happening. Honest and decent people don't loot unless they have their lives are at stake when they don't get the medicine they need. Anyone who could leave and didn't has only themselves to blame for not leaving. If they chose not to leave then they deserve some of the blame for the desperate situation they are in. Some couldn't leave when they had the chance, but others did and decided not to. Some stayed just to loot and rob. Taking food is technically illegal, but under the circumstances is OK if it's for food to eat. But what reason do people have who are stealing other things that they aren't eating for have? Just because it's there, means they can take those things? Some of the NO police are doing that as well.

reply from: sarah

We're dealing with human beings, some good some bad. Some wise some not so wise. It's a massive undertaking no matter what else can be said concering the surrounding issues. When has America dealt with a natural catrasrophe on this level? It's astounding that the finger pointing started almost immediatley. I guess that's natural as well since we're dealing with human beings. However, it serves no purpose other than perhaps to soothe our own fears.
If the hurricane wasn't bad enough, the levy had to break, if that wasnt' bad enough, lawlessness took hold, if that wasn't bad enough fires broke out....MY GOD, let's all cut the people involved, whether they're victims or rescue and help personel or government officals some slack!

reply from: yoda

It's a real horror picture down there, and it gets worse by the minute. I almost got sick when the director of FEMA came on CNN and said he wasn't aware of any problems at the Superdome until the last few hours. I can sit here and see it all happening on my TV, and he doesn't know there's a problem? He told one reporter that they were "too busy working" to watch TV and find out about the 20,000 people at the Superdome in New Orleans. Crap like that makes me ashamed to be an American.

reply from: Navynate

I agree Sarah, cut those people some slack. But Ellen, do you honestly think that your judgemental attitude really helps draw those affected to God? Do you think that throwing verbal rocks at the victims helps anyone? And you probably wonder why the people who have so called christains (and I say so called because it's people like you who have no Christlike love or compassion for others who may be leading a very sinful life) yelling and screaming at them and then wonder why they don't like you. If someone was telling you that you were a horrible person how do you think that you would like that? A Christlike way of dealing with Homosexual groups is to have love for them, but to not surgarcoat sin or how to be saved. When you have a Christlike love for them and also tell them the truth about sin, then you will reach alot more people then you do if you keep throwing your verbal rocks and wonder why they don't like you or respond in the way you want them to. Anyone who says that they are doing Gods will when they are being total jerks has no blooming clue to what the Bible actually says. Jesus loves those people just as much as he loves you, or I or anyone else. Your attitude really sucks. Have you ever read the verses about, there will be those who said that they did all these different things in the name of God, and God will say to them, "Depart from me, for I never knew you". Those are people who say that they are doing things for God and that God will say that He never knew them. If you don't have the love of God then you are doing things of your own flesh and not doing it of God.

reply from: yoda

I had the same reaction, sarah, when I heard some of the typical knee-jerk attacks on President Bush yesterday. But when that FEMA director guy came on CNN and said with a straight face that he didn't know until yesterday morning that there was "any problem" at the Superdome in N.O., I almost lost it. He even told one reporter that they were "too busy to watch TV", so that was his excuse for not knowing. I'm sorry, but that's inexcusable.

And overall, what really bugs me is that these talking heads we see on TV who are supposed to be directing the relief efforts don't show any sign of feeling any sense of urgency at all. They seem to be perfectly calm, as if it was just another day at the office. Is that unfair? Am I being too critical? I don't know, but it's maddening to see those people at the Superdome, day after day after day, waiting for help.

reply from: EllenMyers

The Bible says God is the author of calamity. Your pagan "Mother Earth" beliefs is just some satanic hocus pocus designed to direct us away from God. When we drop bombs on Iraq that kills pregnant women and babies too but that's okay, so why should it be wrong when God punishes them by His own means? God didn't spare anyone is Sodom because they were all guilty and deserved punishment. If a bunch of people are going to house fags in their homes then they get what's coming to them.

reply from: Navynate

Ellen,

I'm a Born Again Christian. But what I don't have a judgemental attitude that this is God's judgement on NO and anyone else who has been affected by the Hurricane. Ellen, we all deserve to have what happened to the people in NO and Miss. happen to each one of us, since we are all sinners, ALL SINNERS. I would deserve to go-you-know-where if Jesus hadn't died for my sins. We all sin, so to say that they deserve this more then anyone else is wrong. I deserve to lose everything I own just as much as those who actually did lose everything. Nobody is sinless, so quit throwing rocks at those who have lost so much. Are you perfect or sinless Ellen? If not, then quit throwing your verbal rocks at those who need love as well as so much that they have lost, not rocks that injure and hurt those who they hit. Do you ever wonder why non christians don't like Christains? Well, if you want to find out, then look in the mirror and then you will see why they don't like us. Because it's people like you who make those who have Godly love and compassion for others look bad and make it so hard for them to reach non christians with the love of God.

Here's some advice Ellen, if you don't have the love of God for those who you are trying to reach for God, then shut up and don't say a word to them. Then you won't be doing any good for God, but then at least you aren't doing any harm for God either. Not doing anything, is better then doing something bad in the name of God.

reply from: Navynate

Oh BTW, I've never been a pagan or believed in that Mother Earth crap that others believe in. My dad is a retired Lutheran pastor, so I grew up going to church and knowing about God and religious faith since before I could remember. I was going to church before I was born, I was going to church since conception, LOL. I don't know about you, but I'm a sinner in need of a savior. And Jesus is my savior.

reply from: EllenMyers

If your name isn't AshMarie then I wasn't responding to you.

reply from: Choicer

Navynate, its people like you who remind me of how good religion can be. It's people like EllenMyers who make me hate it all, and hate the God she speaks for.
You helped me make a choice. I dont think ill ever be like you all and ill never be christian and believe in a god who would say he wouldnt flood again then does, but i think im realising that being prolife doesnt mean i have to not care about women or even to force them to make one choice or another. and it doesnt mean i have to cast stones at people until they see things my way.

i think i have a bit more respect for you all its a strange feeling. i doubt ill be blowing the prolife horn soon but i will be rethinking.

reply from: michael

What about the CHILDREN that died in the hurricane/flood? Was it STILL okay? What about pregnant women, their unborn children?

And I still don't think God did it. It was a natural disaster caused by the earth, not God.

I am an atheist but if there is a God and he/she is all powerful and all knowing as many Christians claim then God would know this storm was coming and God could do something to prevent it. Howeverm god did not. So, one must ask: is god all good?

As for you Ellen: The goal of christianty, ideally, is to be more like jesus, correct? So then tell me, would he adovcate so much judgment towards homosexuals and the promiscuous? Would he want you to behave in such a manner?

reply from: michael

link? source? anything?

reply from: chooselife

Anyone who has the interest check out the following link. This was a report done during the last couple of years that predicted exactly what is happening in New Orleans. This report clearly shows that 30% of the people would not evacuate and they had plans in place. Take a look at the people involved with this study....the govt in Louisiana clearly knew this would be bad.

http://www.publichealth.hurricane.lsu.edu/Adobe%20files%20for%20webpage/reports%20&%20meeting%20minutes/Annual%20Interim%20Report%20(Yr3)%20Narrative%20-%20%20HEF%20(2001-06)-01.pdf

reply from: michael

great link. thanks.

reply from: sarah

It really doesn't matter who you were responding to, the Lord was talking to you thru NavyNate.

reply from: ForLife

I believe the cause of the problems in New Orleans is the fact that men have built a city ten feet below sea level, in a swamp between a large lake and the nation's largest river. I've watched shows the last few years saying New Orleans could be swamped by a storm surge. What has happened was well known in advance and anticipated by many.

reply from: AshMarie88

I didn't say dropping bombs on innocent people was "okay". Killing innocent people is never ok. No excuse for it.

I don't really have much to say about God killing innocent people... I don't know what to say.

reply from: theflyingpen

This is kinda like saying something is out of God's control, which I can't agree with.

As for this other business about the storm being a punishment --if you really believe New Orleans was a present-day Sodom...then you are truly ignorant of both the story as told in the Bible and of New Orleans itself. In Sodom, there were not even ten rightous people to be found --which means the city was already lost.

In New Orleans, it was a lot different. Believers existed and still are there, trapped along with the unbelievers - and all are God's children. We should help them A.S.A.P.

As for the sin which called for God's "wrath," if this is what you choose to believe brought on the storm --what about the underlying racism that is now rearing it's ugly head down there? Christians are quick to judge homosexuals because of their outward acceptance and display of sin -- but what about people who are ugly on the inside?

My city is full of sinners - yet we're still here. Because EVERYONE is a sinner.

My youth group was praying tonight, and here are some pertinent Bible verses:

"I am the Lord, and there is none besides me. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things. You heavens above, rain down rightousness; let the clouds shower it down. Let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let rightousness grow with it; I, the Lord, have created it." Isaiah 45:7-8

And the one which applies to some responses in this thread, spoken by Jesus himself:

"Jesus answered, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no!" Luke 13:2-3

Replace "Galileans" with "Americans" and you might see what I do.

reply from: ForLife

I'll repeat my statement that what happened was an expected event. And despite knowing this was going to happen, men ignored the danger and reaped the consequences. These consequences were expected. So why should there be any grumbling or complaining because men decided to do something so stupid? Men built in a swamp ten feet below sea level. Experts advised that a surge would swamp New Orleans inside it's under sea level bowl.

reply from: michael

It really doesn't matter who you were responding to, the Lord was talking to you thru NavyNate.

how do you know it is god speaking?

reply from: EllenMyers

No, God was speaking through me.

reply from: ForLife

What about the CHILDREN that died in the hurricane/flood? Was it STILL okay? What about pregnant women, their unborn children?

And I still don't think God did it. It was a natural disaster caused by the earth, not God.

I am an atheist but if there is a God and he/she is all powerful and all knowing as many Christians claim then God would know this storm was coming and God could do something to prevent it. Howeverm god did not. So, one must ask: is god all good?

As for you Ellen: The goal of christianty, ideally, is to be more like jesus, correct? So then tell me, would he adovcate so much judgment towards homosexuals and the promiscuous? Would he want you to behave in such a manner?

Man is doing his own work right now, God is not interfering. Man suffers the consequences of his own actions. Man may drown for building in a flood zone, or he may receive a sexually transmitted disease by being promiscuous.

reply from: sarah

It really doesn't matter who you were responding to, the Lord was talking to you thru NavyNate.

how do you know it is god speaking?

The Bible says "My sheep know My voice". And it's apparent by the results of Ellen's attitude she hardly speaks for the Lord.

I think you can see the clear distinction as you said:

reply from: michael

Forlife,

Understood, however, what would you feel towards me as a parent if i permited my children to act within a manner which kills themselves or others? would you say i was a bad parent? i am sure you can see my analogy.

Sarah,

Scitzophrenics believe they are hearing the word of God too. Who is to conclude that you are speaking for the lord with any certainy? I am certain you believe that the lord is speaking through you but you cannot know. agree? Couldnt you just be speaking from a humanistic perspective?

reply from: sarah

I certinaly am not speaking thru a "humanistic perspective." And I'm not suffering from schizophrenia. I never said I was hearing "voices", thank you very much!

Everything a Christian says or does should be filtered thru the Word of God, that's what can give us the decernment to reconize who is or who isn't a true believer and able to rightly divide the Word.

There are different meanings to the word "voice".
voice ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vois)
n.

Expression; utterance: gave voice to their feelings at the meeting.
A medium or agency of expression: a newsletter that serves as a neighborhood voice.
The right or opportunity to express a choice or opinion: a territory that has a voice, but not a vote, in Congress.
Grammar. A property of verbs or a set of verb inflections indicating the relation between the subject and the action expressed by the verb: “Birds build nests” uses the active voice; “nests built by birds” uses the passive voice. Also called diathesis.
The distinctive style or manner of expression of an author or of a character in a book.

Saying the Lord is speaking to you is an expression denoting that thru rightly dividing the Word, you've either hit the mark or missed it. Ellen has missed it.

reply from: ForLife

Yes, I see your analogy. Mankind is temporarily cursed because God has withdrawn from him for a time due to man's (Adam means man) insistance on doing things his own way. Man will feel the biting sting of consequences. This even includes physical death. God compares this to beating his child with the rod, so that man's eternal life may be preserved. Ultimately, man shall learn by experience that it is better to trust in God's judgment than to act like a child running into a busy street.

God says it is not in man to direct his own footsteps. The path that seems right to mankind will lead to death. God says that unless he intervenes, no flesh would be left alive. With the tremendous destructive technologies mankind can develop, and mankind's propensity not to get along with each other, only death (total extinction) can await in the future of mankind. God wants mankind to understand this. The stakes are high. Lip service will not correct man's attitude problem.

reply from: scopia1982

I dont think I am wrong when it comes to the war in Iraq. Bush Jr wanted access to the oil over there. It was Big Oil who got him elected the first time, so he will and is doing there bidding. The Bush family had and still does have very strong links with the Bin Laden family. I support the troops that are over there, they are doing there job, but I dont support the reason we are over there. Bush and his oil cronies covet big oil., they lust after the porfits it will bring so badly that they will do what ever it takes to get it. I bet you Bush is enjoying the profits from the price gouging with oil since the Hurricane, since he has a few well of his own. I dont know what religion you are, but the following passage from the book of James 4:1-4 describes the reason for war in Iraq perfectly:

"Where do you think all these appalling wars and quarrels come from? Do you think they just happen? Think again. They come about because you want your own way, and fight for it deep inside yourselves. You lust for what you don't have and are willing to kill to get it. You want what isn't yours and will risk violence to get your hands on it.

2 You wouldn't think of just asking God for it, would you? 3And why not? Because you know you'd be asking for what you have no right to. You're spoiled children, each wanting your own way.

4 You're cheating on God. If all you want is your own way, flirting with the world every chance you get, you end up enemies of God and his way."

James 4:1-4

reply from: scopia1982

Choicer, the fact that your are even pondering this is a IMO a blessing . I can understand your aversion to religion, I used to be the same way. The Ellen Myers of the world still get under my skin. But getting back to abortion, since you say you will be rethinking may I please suggest that you go on to a website that has information on fetal development with inutero cameras and 3-4d Ultrasounds and with a clear open mind, forget the rhetoric of both sides of the abortion debate and let the pictures speak for themselves, especailly the first trimester babies, who are more than a mere "blob of cells" and form your own conclusiion.

reply from: Navynate

Scope,

GWB said clearly why we were going after Saddam. He had several links to al quida, (I don't have the links or where I heard that, but alot of it has been on the news). for one Abu Nadal the worst terrorist was hide and funded by Saddam. Other al quida members have gotten medical services from the hospital that one of Saddams sons ran. Some of the stuff has been reported in the news, and some have come from other places. But this information is out there. If you think that it was for oil, then you also believe that everyone in the Bush administration is lying too. The fact that Saddam violated 20 some UN resolutions and also the fact that Saddam paid (Yes, paid leaders in Germany, France and Russa) to do everything they could to keep us from getting Saddam from power in Iraq most likely means nothing to you. The UN refused to do anything about Saddam using money for food to pay for palaces and other things too. He continued to murder his own people and terrorise anyone who disagreed with him. His sons contimued to rape and kill anyone they wanted to, excepyt when one of them killed Saddams personal food taster, then Saddam was really ticked off and ordered some of his cronies to shoot Uday several times, he survived, and still had a limp until he died in a shootout with US troops.

reply from: EllenMyers

If you don't follow God's word then you can't exactly be His sheep. You seem to be absolutely clueless to the fact that God judges and punishes those on Earth for their crimes against His word. When God sent armies into cities He had them utterly destroyed including the men, women, children and animals. None were spared. God isn't some peacenik hippy smoking pot and listening to anti-war songs. Worship the God of the Bible not some New Age perversion.

reply from: Navynate

Ellen,

Why do you think that God punishes everyone for doing something that is a sin? Do you think that God punishes people for everything they do wrong? Is that what you believe? If it were true, then we all would be in deep trouble. I don't believe that, I don't believe that God punishes people for things they do wrong. If it were true, then why are some people not punished by God here on Earth? There are some people who should be punished, but seemingly aren't punished at all. Why is that then? Do you sin or do you not deserve to be punished as well?

You don't have any space for the Love, Compassion or forgiveness of God. Where is the love of God in your view of the world? What about the grace of God too? Where are any of these things in your view of God. God calls all people to Him, God doesn't force people to accept the truth. God gives us the free will to choose to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior or not to. If your view of God was true, then Heaven would be empty, nobody would be there. Only God, maybe a few others who founded the church of God. But nobody else would be there. Is that what you think is true? Do you treat your family and friends the same way you say that God treats people here on Earth? I sure hope not, I wouldn't want to be your friend if you did that. People aren't perfect, nobody is. You love others and then forgive them when they mess up or do something that you don't want them to do.

reply from: scopia1982

What you are quoting is Old Testament stuff, this was how God handled those before Christ came down to die on the Cross. I suggest you read the Gospels more closely, Jesus came down here for us to die on the cross for OUR sins. We are all sinners Ellen, including you and myself. Because Jesus paid the penalty, God doesnt punish us the way he did OT people. All human beings will made to answer for their sins on the day of judgment and each will be rewarded or punished accordingly.

reply from: Allizdog2000

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/tenmajorevents.htm

Look at the above:

Now Look at this:
http://albawaba.com/en/news/188405

Now look at this from April 2005:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/13/world/main611518.shtml

Bottom line is, Screwing over Israel = God's Wrath.

reply from: EllenMyers

God punishes as a warning to either turn or burn. Too many people are being led away with some New Age belief that God likes to have picnics and play with bunnies and that the Bible is lying when it says God is a jealous God with wrath of an everlasting fire. Think how many people in New Orleans are turning to God the moment when they got a slight taste of hell. Do you think people turn to God when things are going great for them, when their life is comfortable? No, that's when they take God for granted and dwell in their pride and greed. The people in New Orleans just had everything wiped away so they have nothing else but themselves and God. That's why the Bible says it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter Heaven. Too many Christians think of God as a Santa Claus who is just here to give everyone treats and be nice to them. If God was always nice He wouldn't have created an everlasting torment of fire.

reply from: ForLife

What you are quoting is Old Testament stuff, this was how God handled those before Christ came down to die on the Cross. I suggest you read the Gospels more closely, Jesus came down here for us to die on the cross for OUR sins. We are all sinners Ellen, including you and myself. Because Jesus paid the penalty, God doesnt punish us the way he did OT people. All human beings will made to answer for their sins on the day of judgment and each will be rewarded or punished accordingly.

The Old Testament stuff is an example and prophecy for us today. It tells us exactly how sacrifice and punishment work. You are wrong to say NT and OT are different. Your last sentence is correct; we will reap based on what we have sown.

When the Spiritual Israelites inherit the Kingdom (the meek shall inherit the earth), the same events will befall the wicked as ocurred to them when the physical Israelites inherited the promised land. The wicked will be utterly destroyed; there really is no place for them. You may recall God did not let Israel inherit the land until the iniquities of those living in the land were complete. The Canaanites were destroyed because of their sins; so shall it be at the end of man's system.

We are to love our enemies, give him or her whatever they need, in the hope that they come to their senses and turn from their wicked ways to life. But for some, repentance will never come.

reply from: EllenMyers

Amen! We won't have a real Christian nation until all of God's enemies in America are vanquished.

reply from: ForLife

I agree. But, this is only after Christ returns to rule from Jerusalem.

Taking the position of a Muslim, that we know right and wrong, and are commanded to weed out infidels now, and establish Allah's kingdom now, is very wrong. Such a belief system would lead to immediate war and the annihilation of life on this planet. It certainly would not give us our alloted days to consider the works of our hands, repent of our ways, and turn to God. I've been misunderstood before.

From the Sermon on the Mount: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

Islamic terrorists are children of the devil, for they are not peacemakers, they are warmongers.

reply from: sarah

The bible also says we will know them by their fruit.
Your view of God and His ways and Word produce animosity and division.
Contrast that to what NavyNate had to say and the response by Choicer.

You live by the law and so you will be judged by the law. If you don't keep it exactly like Jesus did, you have failed. And if you say you have no sin then the bible calls you a liar. You've got yourself between a rock and a hard place.

reply from: Valfar

This is awesome.

How can you people expect to rule America under a theocracy when you can't even decide amongst yourselves how to interpret the bible? This sort of infighting gives me hope that the theocrats and dominionists will fail!

reply from: cali1981

Your assumptions and generalizations are getting more interesting by the minute.

Who is "you people"? As I said to you in another thread, our movement is made up of a wide variety of individuals, some with vastly different belief systems (and vastly different other things, too). The pro-life movement is anything but a homogenous group, so I'm astounded all over again that you can make such generalizations by saying "you people."

Furthermore, who ever said that they expected/hoped to "rule America under a theocracy"? If you really think that someone said that, you either have a reading comprehension problem or are downright stupid. And if you don't think that somene said that, you would seem to be a jerk who's out to make caustic remarks just for the fun of it. Sooo, which is it?

reply from: Valfar

Spare me the "We are family" crap, Cali. You know as well as I do that the pro-life movement is closely tied with christian dominionism through its leaders and many of its followers. If you somehow think it isn't dominion that these people are after, maybe you should go check up on that:

www.theocracywatch.org
www.au.org
www.pfaw.org

If you are refering to in general, go read up on those links above. It's very clear what the christian fundamentalists (including your fearless leaders Randall Terry and Troy Newman) are after. If you are refering to strictly within this thread, allow me to refresh your memory:

Did you even bother to read this thread before you saw my name as having replied to it?

reply from: cali1981

I don't claim to know what "christian dominionism" is after. The pro-life movement is made up of conservatives, liberals, libertarians, women, men, Christians, Muslims, atheists, homosexuals, heterosexuals, Republicans, Democrats, and people of every race and color. Because some pro-lifers happen to be Christian dominionists (whatever that means) does not mean that the pro-life position has the slightest thing to do with Christian dominionism.

I am amazed that you can call these men "your fearless leaders" without knowing the slightest thing about me. Did you know that I am not even a Christian? What gives you the right to make such blatant untrue assumptions?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. You missed the point, as usual. But it allowed you to divert attention away from actually discussing abortion (which is always the proabort goal - so I'm not surprised).

reply from: EllenMyers

Randall Terry is a false Christian who cheated on his wife and had a divorce. Troy Newman is a true Christian and will lead this nation to greatness. I'm proud to be a member of Operation Rescue West and have protested with him on many occassions. If Troy was in charge we'd cleanse this nation quickly and send all of God's enemies away for good. When there are no more atheists, jews, communists or muslims left in America we can start eradicating the evils of abortion, evolution and secularism. God has destined America to be His new Holy Land and we are His chosen vessels.

reply from: AshMarie88

My state is really bad with abortion (it's legal up to 7 months here, and kids don't have to tell their parents they're getting an abortion) and liberalism (liberal state... yuck)... How come a big flood or hurricane hasn't hit my state because of that?

reply from: ForLife

None of what you say has any possibility of happening. You are outnumbered a hundred to one. A man, such as this Troy Newman, has no ability to change things. There will be no cleansing going on. While I disagree with the movements, ideas and practices you have listed (except for one), they shall be around for many years to come. I would forget the idea of trying to overturn any of them. You can only be a witness against the madness. I do preach against abortion, evolution, secularism, communism, Islam and atheism; but there is not a snowball's chance in hell that any of those ideas or practices will go away, they won't. The Good Book says people will be the worst they have ever been near the end of man's rule. And those who don't accept all this diversity will suffer consequences from men.

The people of Israel are my brothers. I pray for the success of their nation.

I've never understood the hatred against the Jewish people. My father and his mother made very derogatory comments about the Jewish people. But I find no fault.

reply from: sarah

That reminds me of an old saying, "it takes one to know one".

This also reminds me of some things, but where to start? Well, I'll just some it up and say bigotry.

Btw, are you a good represenative of how Troy Newman and Operation Resuce West thinks?

reply from: EllenMyers

I often work with Troy Newman. I travelled with him to Topeka to give testimony on why we need stricter abortion clinic regulations. Of course this was just to make it too expensive for some of them to operate and, as a result, shut down. I'm often present for Operation Rescue West's strategy meetings where we discuss long and short term goals for the movement. Troy isn't some hippy compromiser, many on his staff have failed time and lawsuits. No man who has faced as much persecution as Troy would still be in this if God wasn't walking with him through this.

reply from: theflyingpen

Did you know it's legal through all 9 months of pregnancy in every state?

Just thought you should know it's a nation thing we need to fix.

reply from: sarah

Does Troy Newman and Operation Rescue West feel this way as well, are you speaking for this man and this organization when you say:

reply from: ForLife

Does Troy Newman and Operation Rescue West feel this way as well, are you speaking for this man and this organization when you say:

Ellen's remarks are delusional. Remarks such as cleansing, sending away for good, eradicating evils, etc.

The most delusional remark is that God has destined America to be His new Holy Land. Haven't you noticed the behaviors and depravity in America?

Also delusional, "we are His chosen vessels". It would be best to wait for the first resurrection and the awarding of crowns before announcing that you are one of His chosen vessels.

I don't agree with many things going on in this country, in fact, I'm appalled. I agree with you on that Ellen.

We are to live lawfully, decently and orderly under man's government. The government will go in some very undesirable directions, but no man has any power or authority to do anything about it.

I don't understand the anti-Semitic comment. The Jewish people are probably more observant of torah than the "Christians". I find fault with "Christians" who do not obey the law.

reply from: EllenMyers

Yes. Troy doesn't mention communists much but he does mention liberals. Liberals tend to be communists anyway.

reply from: theflyingpen

Hahahaha...anyone else notice that the day Katrina formed was the exact day America tried to coerce Israel to give up land? It's called the http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/08/18/the_gaza_disengagement/

Pretty coincidental that.

*shrug*

Could be that we're NOT God's chosen land...

...which I'll go ahead and say that I do not believe America is the new Holy Land. Where does the Bible say anything about that, Ms. Ellen?

Sounds like balarky to me.

Is that how you spell balarky?

reply from: sarah

I want to be completely clear on this.
Whose post are you replying to?
Was the "yes" to my question?

Does Troy Newman and Operation Rescue West feel this way as well, are you speaking for this man and this organization when you say:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Troy Newman is a true Christian and will lead this nation to greatness. I'm proud to be a member of Operation Rescue West and have protested with him on many occassions. If Troy was in charge we'd cleanse this nation quickly and send all of God's enemies away for good. When there are no more atheists, jews, communists or muslims left in America we can start eradicating the evils of abortion, evolution and secularism. God has destined America to be His new Holy Land and we are His chosen vessels.

reply from: sarah

Hahahaha...anyone else notice that the day Katrina formed was the exact day America tried to coerce Israel to give up land? It's called the http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2005/08/18/the_gaza_disengagement/

Pretty coincidental that.

*shrug*

Could be that we're NOT God's chosen land...

...which I'll go ahead and say that I do not believe America is the new Holy Land. Where does the Bible say anything about that, Ms. Ellen?

Sounds like balarky to me.

Is that how you spell balarky?

Balarky or malarky, her premise is still unfounded and worse.


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