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The clarity of our own convictions never means we despise, demonize, or shut out other people.

by: Faramir

When I saw this statement from one of the most respected leaders of the prolife movement, it rang true to me.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement, and why?

reply from: yoda

Do you EVER find time to speak out for the unborn?
Are you just here to be our NANNY????

reply from: Faramir

Do you care to answer the question?
Every response to me does not have to be a personal attack or an insult, does it?
Do you fail to respond because the statement and the authority behind it causes some discomfort?

reply from: carolemarie

I agree, because i think it is the way Christians should behave....acting in love

reply from: yoda

Here's the deal....... first, you have to say something that sounds vaguely prolife..... that makes me think that you are at least trying to speak out for the babies in your own confused, misdirected way.....
Then, I'll answer your @$#$#@% question.

reply from: yoda

Do you love the FMan? Do you act that way towards him?

reply from: carolemarie

I don't call him names or insult him. I disagree with him and point out the inconsistancy in his statements and his theology. he is the one who calls names. Acting in love means i hold my tongue most of the time when dealing with him and ignore his personal attacks

reply from: Faramir

Do you love the FMan? Do you act that way towards him?
What planet do you live on?
Have you seen the millions of horrible things he's said to her and that she does not answer back in kind?

reply from: Faramir

Here's the deal....... first, you have to say something that sounds vaguely prolife..... that makes me think that you are at least trying to speak out for the babies in your own confused, misdirected way.....
Then, I'll answer your @$#$#@% question.
I think I've made enough statements to demonstrate my pro-life beliefs, and I think if you're determined to call me a "phony," you will regardless of what I say, so there's no point in trying to prove anything to you.
Try to forget it was me who made the post.
It's a legitimate point to discuss, and you appear to be dodging it.

reply from: yoda

You have a short memory, but I'll let that one go in hopes that you will not do it in the future. If you're going to lecture us, you ought to live what you preach.

reply from: yoda

You actually think I want you to "prove" something to me? What a laugh...
No, I want you to do something constructive to help the babies. That's the bargain..... say something to help the babies, and I'll play along with your silly little game..... refuse and I'll ignore your request. That's the deal, take it or leave it...... how badly do you really want an answer?

reply from: CDC700

Goes for both sides....

reply from: nancyu

So you're here to defend unborn children, or to promote Pavone?

reply from: Faramir

So far two actual responses, and three dodges...
Why dodge it?

reply from: nancyu

So you're here to defend unborn children, or to promote Pavone?
Why dodge this one?^

reply from: Faramir

Correction, four dodges, and two by one person.
Must have struck a nerve with this one...

reply from: nancyu

Six dodges, including yours.

reply from: Faramir

So you're here to defend unborn children, or to promote Pavone?
Why dodge this one?^
Your quesiton falls into the category of a "false dichotomy" fallacy.
I'm not here to promote Pavone, but if I were, that action would help defend the unborn, since I would be showing support for someone who does such an exemplary job of defending life in the womb. Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive, as you've incorrectly implied in your flawed question, which also was off-topic.
But why are you derailing the thread? You seem to be afraid to actually discuss the point raised?

reply from: nancyu

So you're here to defend unborn children, or to promote Pavone?
Why dodge this one?^
Your quesiton falls into the category of a "false dichotomy" fallacy.
I'm not here to promote Pavone, but if I were, that action would help defend the unborn, since I would be showing support for someone who does such an exemplary job of defending life in the womb. Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive, as you've incorrectly implied in your flawed question, which also was off-topic.
Why are you derailing the thread? Why are you afraid to actually discuss the point raised?
I disagree with the statement because of the word "never".
You're being dishonest. You're only reason for posting this was to promote Pavone and disparage anyone who might disagree with him. I don't revere him the way you do. I suspect he is a phony whose only interest is self promotion. He kind of reminds me of you.

reply from: Faramir

So you're here to defend unborn children, or to promote Pavone?
Why dodge this one?^
Your quesiton falls into the category of a "false dichotomy" fallacy.
I'm not here to promote Pavone, but if I were, that action would help defend the unborn, since I would be showing support for someone who does such an exemplary job of defending life in the womb. Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive, as you've incorrectly implied in your flawed question, which also was off-topic.
Why are you derailing the thread? Why are you afraid to actually discuss the point raised?
I disagree with the statement because of the word "never".
You're being dishonest. You're only reason for posting this was to promote Pavone and disparage anyone who might disagree with him. I don't revere him the way you do. I suspect he is a phony whose only interest is self promotion. He kind of reminds me of you.
I reworded it for you:
The clarity of our own convictions doesn't mean that we despise, demonize, or shut out other people.
What kinds of exceptions are you looking for, btw?
But in what ways would you agree with the statement? If you object to "never," that implies that you at least sometimes oppose the idea of despising or demonizing the opposition.

reply from: Faramir

It's sad to me that some would use the unborn or the bible as an exuse, and it seems this forum as attracted more than its fair share of those types, but I'm open to the possibility I'm wrong about that, and would welcome some of their input as to how demonizing, despising, and otherwise being mean and nasty helps prevent abortions, and for those who profess to be Christians, why this is something that Jesus wants them to do.

reply from: yoda

What's wrong, Farty?
Is it too much trouble for you to make one simple statement in support of the unborn, in return for my cooperation with your little "question"?
You really do hate to support the unborn, don't you?

reply from: Teresa18

I have the most trouble with the first part of his statement where he says that he "maintains friendships with abortion advocates and abortionists." I can see being cordial to these people and trying to dialogue peacefully, but I don't think, check that, I know I could never be friends with an abortionist - a man/woman slaughtering helpless unborn children. By cordial, I do not mean shying away from the truth. The abortionist must be told he/she is killing unborn children for a living, is participating in evil, and is in danger of eternal damnation if he/she doesn't repent. Similarly the abortion supporters must be told what they support, are participating in, and that they are in danger of eternal damnation as well. Many will not listen, and I do not believe it is wrong to exchange heated words depending on the situation. We have to face facts that many on the other side of the aisle are not going to have a change of heart; they will have to be legally defeated.

reply from: yoda

Same here.
But you know, Lord Chamberlin was "friends" with that German fellow....

reply from: Faramir

Maybe he will help them see the light some day.
Do you deny he is an orthodox Catholic priest and that he does good prolife work?
Do you deny he's an authority in the prolife movement?
I think he knows more than you and I put together and then some, so I don't have a problem with his judgement in this area.
What about the rest of his statement about not demonizing, despising, or shutting out others?
Of course we have to work politically to defeat abortion and their agenda, but that does not preclude associating with them and keeping those lines of communication open.
Read CP's response. He hit the nail on the head regarding those who oppose Fr. Frank's philosophy, and I'm not saying that applies to you.

reply from: Faramir

If I call one of the "pro aborts" here a scum bag or a whore, does that count as being supportive of the unborn?

reply from: Shenanigans

Moral superiority is for Popes and manaics!
I'm happier with being undisputed empress of the universe.
Actually, that's so great, it needs to be in capitals.
SHENANIGANS: UNDISPUTED EMPRESS OF THE UNIVERSE!!!

reply from: Faramir

Sorry, you don't empress me.

reply from: Teresa18

Would you befriend a murderer of born people in the hopes that he/she might "see the light some day"?
No.
No. He certainly is a prominent voice in the pro-life movement among others.
I support cordial dialogue, but like I said, I support telling the truth, even if the abortionists and pro-aborts are offended. I think sometimes harsh words can be warranted, especially when we are dealing with people who know the truth about abortion but could care less.
I never said it didn't.

reply from: Shenanigans

M. Sanger?
Oh wait, Sanger was an American.

reply from: Shenanigans

Only if you make a joke about their momma.

reply from: Shenanigans

You'll all be impressed when statues to my greatness are erected in every main city centre. Those who question will be sent to re-education clinics.

reply from: Faramir

You seem to think friendship and truthfulness are mutually exclusive.
They are not.
Don't you have any friends or some wayward members of your family who are not prolife?
Can't you still relate to them and be friendly and still be truthful?
But regarding those who know that truth and don't care--I have seen some like that online. It is quite disturbing when they say they believe an abortion kills a child--but so what?
But what harsh words will help them or the unborn? What harsh words do they need?
Do you see the possibility that sometimes harsh words are used for the benefit of no one, but the person who uses them? They use a cause as an excuse to berate, belittle, and feel superior. And that has a negative effect on the cause or the religion they represent.

reply from: Banned Member

The clarity of our own convictions means we always tell the truth, identify the guilty, and disregard people who try to distort or hide the truth.

reply from: Faramir

Huh?
I think this one needs a little work.
And are you too going to dodge the the issue?
Why would a Catholic not be supportive of a Catholic prolife leader?
Do you agree or disagree with what Fr. Frank said, and why.

reply from: Faramir

So far there have only been three prolifers brave enough to actually consider and respond to the original post.
The rest have dodged it.
Why?

reply from: focusbaby

Faramir,
I will answer the question. I disagree with Fr. Pavone on that point. BUT I also recognize that he is a Priest and must leave himself open for such relationships. It is my guess that is the demands of his job. However, I believe the over all spirit of the Bible, suggests otherwise. THe book of Proverbs deals with topics involving our associations. Yet, I don't believe in demonizing. Opinions come and go. People have to communicate. Ideas need to exchanged. Its not just about being heard, but also hearing. If we don't listen to the other side, how can we address their concerns appropriately?

reply from: focusbaby

I suspect boundaries of who and who not to hang out with is different for each of us. It depends on our calling. Fr. Pavone has a calling to witness to those people. But thats not everyone's calling. It is not necessary for all.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for actually addressing the issue instead of dodgining it, focusbaby.
I appreciate your courage and honesty.
I don't know that I would want to be friends with an abortion doctor, either. But I would have little opportunity for that to happen, anyway.
But I do have contact with prochoicers, and so long as I maintain my position regarding the sanctity of life in the womb, I don't see how a relationship with those on the other side could be anything but positive--at worst it could be neutral.
CP's post hit the nail on the head regarding many of the prolifers of this forum, however, though I am open to the possibility I'm wrong about them, yet they refuse to discuss this issue.
I think that if someone uses their perceived morally superior position to browbeat, demean, and harrass those who oppose them, that it's not at all to serve the purpose of their cause, which at that point is an "excuse," but to fill a void in themselves, or to receive some kind of pleasure at the expense of others.
When they use (or I should say MISuse) their cause in a way to feel superior to others, such as in the abortion issue, it's not "for the babies" but is "for number one." They exploit the unborn for the sake of their own pride and their own egos, which does not help the unborn, and which has a negative impact on the overall prolife cause, so they're doing more harm than good, imho.

reply from: Faramir

This is the most insightful answer so far, and is quite likely to win the prize for the best response, but there is still time to enter...
And I will award a cookie to any of the dodgers who make a good faith effort to respond without evasion and playing games.
If you think it's right to despise and demonize, at least own up to it, be proud of it, and explain why it's right and how it helps the unborn.

reply from: faithman

There is no inconsistancy in any of my statements. I believe abortion is murder, and those who do it are scum bags. You can not defeat an enemy until you identitfy them as such. My theology stands true, and refutes the sloppy agopy false christianity you post here. Every time I nail you, you change the subject. You are the one who sells the womb child out on a regular basis, and decietfully handle the word of God to make up your theology as you go along. You are a confessed baby killer, and a liar. You endanger the womb child with your thinly vailed pro-abortion stands, and you endanger true ministry with your lies. I do not "demonize" anyone. I merely recognize demons.

reply from: Faramir

There is no inconsistancy in any of my statements. I believe abortion is murder, and those who do it are scum bags. You can not defeat an enemy until you identitfy them as such. My theology stands true, and refutes the sloppy agopy false christianity you post here. Every time I nail you, you change the subject. You are the one who sells the womb child out on a regular basis, and decietfully handle the word of God to make up your theology as you go along. You are a confessed baby killer, and a liar. You endanger the womb child with your thinly vailed pro-abortion stands, and you endanger true ministry with your lies. I do not "demonize" anyone. I merely recognize demons.
Demons are pure spirts, i.e., fallen angels. They've made their choice and they are eternally damned.
Human beings are not demons and so long as they live and breathe, have the opportunity to escape damnation and attain Heaven, so therefore, to "demonize" them is to consider them to be already damned, which is improper and unjust, as there is also hope for their salvation, and those of us who call ourselves Christians are to be that hope, and are not to shut the door on them.
Carolemarie works hard to save babies from abortion f'man. You are entirely wrong and entirely abusive in your manner of treating her, and you use your political disagreements as an excuse to harrass and abuse her about her sins of 30 years ago. What you do on a regular basis to her is totally self-serving and is unjust.

reply from: yoda

Nope, that's just letting off steam.
Say something "strong" against elective abortion. Make us think you really, really feel strongly about it. Trick us!

reply from: yoda

Or the rock they crawled out from under.......

reply from: yoda

Sometimes they are. When telling the unvarnished truth causes someone to be offended, there's nothing you can do about that.
And it's very important to know which is more important to you, telling the truth or being friends with a proabort. I think I know your answer.

reply from: yoda

Worth repeating...... even if Farty doesn't understand it.

reply from: yoda

And so far, you have refused to make a prolife statement.

reply from: Faramir

Nope, that's just letting off steam.
Say something "strong" against elective abortion. Make us think you really, really feel strongly about it. Trick us!
What you call "letting off steam" I would call "abusiveness, using the unborn as an excuse."
However, if you will look at many of the posts by those you consider to be so supportive, you will see there is not much more to them then "letting off steam."
85% of the posts are something like this: "Ewww, you are a pro-abort. You are a mean nasty killer, and you really suck, and you're stupid too. I'm so happy I'm not a degenerate baby-killer like you. You are going to hell, and I can't wait to see the firey flames licking you for all eternity."
From my perspective, I have yet to see many strong statements that favor the unborn, or would help the unborn. Just lots of posturing and and excuses to say, "I'm better than you."
I've made it crystal clear that I oppose abortion for any reason, that it is an injustice to the unborn, and that it must be vigorously opposed.

reply from: carolemarie

There is no inconsistancy in any of my statements. I believe abortion is murder, and those who do it are scum bags. You can not defeat an enemy until you identitfy them as such. My theology stands true, and refutes the sloppy agopy false christianity you post here. Every time I nail you, you change the subject. You are the one who sells the womb child out on a regular basis, and decietfully handle the word of God to make up your theology as you go along. You are a confessed baby killer, and a liar. You endanger the womb child with your thinly vailed pro-abortion stands, and you endanger true ministry with your lies. I do not "demonize" anyone. I merely recognize demons.
You have never NAILED me on a theological position. You may not agree, but that isn't the same thing as proving your point, or else I would have adjusted my position. I just get mad at you and decide to not engage further or I might be tempted to be hateful back to you, so i bite my tongue and let it go....
Just because you have a hard time with mercy and grace doesn't make it any less true. Jesus came to save the world, that was love in action.....He doesn't want any person to perish and we are commissioned by Him to go and tell others how much He loves them....the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin, not namecalling or abuse from God's people. In fact we are told not to return evil for evil and to love those who perscute us and as much as possible to live in peace with others.
We are forgiven and are suppose to show that same mercy to others. Apparently an alien concept to you....
I am not proabortion in any measure, but I can understand how women can believe that abortion is a way out of a problem. I can certainly have empathy for them without agreeing with their conclusions, and I can try to help them find a way out of their problems. And after abortion I still try to help them find Jesus, who will help them overcome and who offers forgiveness, a concept you apparently have difficulty with.
The kindness of the Lord leads people to repentance.....so we should be kind.
None of us can be perfect, but we can try to remember that we have a multitude of faults and sins and God extended kindness and mercy to us.....
Love changes people

reply from: faithman

There is no inconsistancy in any of my statements. I believe abortion is murder, and those who do it are scum bags. You can not defeat an enemy until you identitfy them as such. My theology stands true, and refutes the sloppy agopy false christianity you post here. Every time I nail you, you change the subject. You are the one who sells the womb child out on a regular basis, and decietfully handle the word of God to make up your theology as you go along. You are a confessed baby killer, and a liar. You endanger the womb child with your thinly vailed pro-abortion stands, and you endanger true ministry with your lies. I do not "demonize" anyone. I merely recognize demons.
You have never NAILED me on a theological position. You may not agree, but that isn't the same thing as proving your point, or else I would have adjusted my position. I just get mad at you and decide to not engage further or I might be tempted to be hateful back to you, so i bite my tongue and let it go....
Just because you have a hard time with mercy and grace doesn't make it any less true. Jesus came to save the world, that was love in action.....He doesn't want any person to perish and we are commissioned by Him to go and tell others how much He loves them....the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin, not namecalling or abuse from God's people. In fact we are told not to return evil for evil and to love those who perscute us and as much as possible to live in peace with others.
We are forgiven and are suppose to show that same mercy to others. Apparently an alien concept to you....
I am not proabortion in any measure, but I can understand how women can believe that abortion is a way out of a problem. I can certainly have empathy for them without agreeing with their conclusions, and I can try to help them find a way out of their problems. And after abortion I still try to help them find Jesus, who will help them overcome and who offers forgiveness, a concept you apparently have difficulty with.
The kindness of the Lord leads people to repentance.....so we should be kind.
None of us can be perfect, but we can try to remember that we have a multitude of faults and sins and God extended kindness and mercy to us.....
Love changes people
I showed you in error, and you tried to change the subject by changing the scripture reference. You have never seen me on the streets witnessing my faith to the lost. Something I have done for 20 years or better. I have no difficulty at all of preaching the escape of God's wrath to come thru the truth of Jesus Christ. It is you whop perverts that message with your false sloppy agopy. God's wrath abides on the childern of disobediance. The sinner is condemned to hell without Christ. The only way of escape is surreder to Jesus Christ as the Lord of your life. Anything short of that is a one way ticket to damnation.

reply from: carolemarie

For that matter you have never been with me when I witness to the people Jesus misses the most----
I believe with all my heart that God loves people and wants me to love them too.
The first thing is to let someone know that there is a God who wants to know them and that He isn't angry at them that He loves them and wants them to come to Him just as they are.....God will do the changing and I just walk that out with them....it is all about relationships, vertical and horizantal. Doing life together...
Each person has worth, dignity and deserves to be treated like that. Even prochoice people, even liberal democrats and even animal rights supporters. This is how we treat peole made in the image of God....we are like mirrors, reflecting the goodness of God to a lost and dying world.
Mother Teresa was powerful because she loved, Gandi was powerful because he loved, Love is of God because God is love

reply from: yoda

Quite frankly, who cares what you would call it?
More like 5 or 10%, I'd say. But MORE THAN 85% of YOUR posts are something like this: "You're being too mean to the proaborts and the other prolifers here, your behavior is unacceptable!" You're like a hired nanny old maid schoolteacher screaming at kids.
No, you've made a few mild statement on rare occasions, as if you were apologizing to the proaborts for even that.
When are you going to actually begin to try to do better?

reply from: yoda

But Farimir has, right? I mean, he's always telling us your "save count", so he must have been there, right?

reply from: Faramir

Do you belong to a particular denomination?
If so, is it customary for your sect to call women "scancs" and "whores" and harrass them obsessively for sins committed many years ago?
I've never seen any Christian of any denomination bully people to the degree you do, and I'm wondering what the heck they teach where you worship.
Do you have a catechism or any kind of instructions that tell you to do this?
BTW, your behavior here makes you appear to be incompetent and not credible. I know you won't shed any tears over me seeing you that way, but I'm not the only one who observes this forum who has a little common sense. If you want any support for your work, you do yourself a disservice and shoot yourself in the foot every day.
Of course, this is just the internet, and you could be pretending to be a jackass so you can yank our chains and have a great time watching people try to reason with you or yell at you, so this might be just a place for you to get some cheap entertainment.
IF you do real prolife in the real world, you could fool me, because it doesn't come across to me and many others, I'm sure, but if you really do, then that's wonderful, but the faithman of this board is a total joke and an impotent witness for life in the womb.

reply from: carolemarie

not my saves--Gods saves. over 12 years of sidewalk counseling.
Anyone can do it, you just go and love on people and help them....
and it was all of us working together, i just did the sidewalk counseling. it was a busy abortion clinic and it kinda averaged out to about less than one percent changed their minds......but for those who decided not to do it WOOHOO
Can't help it you don't want to believe people change their minds. We documented it because it helped to encourage people to come out.

reply from: yoda

And has Faramir been there to help you?

reply from: Faramir

And has Faramir been there to help you?
No I have not been there to help and have never done an ounce of real prolife work. I've just flapped my gums on the internet, and I don't count that as much, if anything.
However, I apprecate her work, and see that saving babies is a good thing.
And I think it's horrible that other prolifers work so hard to descredit her and what she does.

reply from: yoda

Then why do you frequently tell us how many "hundreds" of babies she has saved, if you were not there?

reply from: Faramir

Then why do you frequently tell us how many "hundreds" of babies she has saved, if you were not there?
Because I asked her all the details of what she did, what was involved, the percentage that responded, how many actual women decided to not abort, etc.
Are you implying she has not helped save any babies and she doesn't really do sidewalk counselling?
She's a well-paid spy from PP, right?
brother...

reply from: yoda

So all you have is her word? How does that give you the authority to declare that to be true? What gives you such confidence in her word?

reply from: Faramir

I take everyone here at their word, including you.

reply from: yoda

The HELL you do!!
When are you going to take Sander and FMan at their word?????

reply from: 4choice4all

Sander and Faithman behaviors on this board inherently create distrust,imo.

reply from: yoda

HE said "everyone", didn't he?

reply from: speck

It is easier to change the heart of a friend than it is to change the heart of an enemy.

reply from: Faramir

The HELL you do!!When are you going to take Sander and FMan at their word?????
I often don't like what they say, but as far as anything they've shared about who they are and what they do or have done, I totally believe.

reply from: Banned Member

Father Benedict Groeschel certainly has no problem calling people who provide abortions and the politicians who support them "baby killers".

reply from: Banned Member

'It may be a surprise to some that in our country the poor are often singled out to have their babies aborted. Language is manipulated but the message is clear: if you want a richer, fuller life you need to kill your children. What a sad, horrific message in a culture which still has many living souls that successfully made it through the depression of the 1920's and 30's. How short sighted can one be?' -Father Benedict Groeschel

reply from: nancyu

Ain't it funny that there are so many seeking to eliminate poverty by eliminating the poor.
No I guess it ain't funny.

reply from: nancyu

OXFAM is an organization whose objective is supposed to be to help people in this world who are starving. One of their methods -- promoting birth control.
Check out their video promoting the female condom:
http://www.oxfam.org/en/video/2008/the-female-condom-is-here-to-stay
One man says, "The main reason I started to use the female condom is...because there was no place for a child in our family. So it has been a means of family planning for us."
So is this what we mean by "helping"?

reply from: nancyu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYE2atbxspg&feature=related

reply from: yoda

Neither is possible. People change their own hearts, when they are ready.

reply from: yoda

I'll remember that.....
In the meantime, try to remember that the rest of us may not be as naive and trusting as you are, and don't really want to hear you repeatedly quote someone else's undocumented claims.

reply from: Faramir

You've humbly provided your own quote in place of Fr. Frank's but have dodged the issue like the others.
Why?
And I have met Fr. Groeschel, and he's a wonderful, kindly, and humble man.
Please provide some evidence that he suggests we should demonize, despise, and shut out others because of our convictions about abortion.

reply from: godless

Then why do you frequently tell us how many "hundreds" of babies she has saved, if you were not there?
Because I asked her all the details of what she did, what was involved, the percentage that responded, how many actual women decided to not abort, etc.
Are you implying she has not helped save any babies and she doesn't really do sidewalk counselling?
She's a well-paid spy from PP, right?
brother...
She does a much better job for us being on your side. She is known all accross North Texas as a habitual liar. The investigation launched because of her posts here have gotten CPCs very skiddish indeed. It is our hope that some of those citidales of anti-choice BS will be closed. Big thank yous to all you pro fetus loons who filed reports.

reply from: Teresa18

Like Yoda pointed out, they sometimes are. Sometimes people are offended by the truth, and therefore they want nothing to do with you.

reply from: Teresa18

Really? Then why don't you take Faithman at his word that he does pro-life work? Here you question whether he does by saying "if".

reply from: Faramir

Really? Then why don't you take Faithman at his word that he does pro-life work? Here you question whether he does by saying "if".
I take him at his word that he does what he says he does, but he damages his credibilty by his abusive behavior on this board, and that he slams the prolife Catholic Church and Priests for Life.
Do you approve of his behavior here?

reply from: Faramir

Like Yoda pointed out, they sometimes are. Sometimes people are offended by the truth, and therefore they want nothing to do with you.
The point is that if someone wants to be a friend with me who is on the opposite side and who does not mind my truthfulness about abortion, then what is the harm, except possibly that I would have to see that person as a real person and would not not be able to call her a "whore" or a "scanc"---darn it.... So there is a downside of course.

reply from: Teresa18

I don't always see eye to eye with him. Obviously I'm Catholic, so I disagree with his criticisms of the Church, and I generally don't namecall. I do think he has done wonderful pro-life work with the IAAP, and I believe he sincerely means well and wants to end this national bloodbath.

reply from: Teresa18

I never said there is harm in it, but I said that sometimes telling the truth causes people to be offended and not wish to be your friend.

reply from: Faramir

I don't always see eye to eye with him. Obviously I'm Catholic, so I disagree with his criticisms of the Church, and I generally don't namecall. I do think he has done wonderful pro-life work with the IAAP, and I believe he sincerely means well and wants to end this national bloodbath.
Teresa, this man is an abusive bully who makes vile comments daily against a postabortive prolife woman.
Is that all you can say about that? You don't see "eye to eye"?
You are so anxious to nail me for using the word "if" in regards to faithman, yet you let hundreds of "scancs," "whores," "killers" and god knows what else go by without saying a peep.
How can you give him a pass on such an injustice?
I don't get that one at all.

reply from: Teresa18

Faithman knows I disagree with those comments, as I have expressed on this board. I think he should voice his disagreements with Carole in a respectful manner.
We have a poster on here who escorts pregnant women into a clinic so they can kill their children. I saw you defending her on a different thread. How can you defend someone that is leading children in to be slaughtered?

reply from: Faramir

I in no way defend those actions, and that was not right to imply that.
I said it was wrong that someone called her a "monster," as I have taken to heart what Fr. Frank said about "demonizing" the opposition.

reply from: Teresa18

It seemed to me you implied that I support the attacks on Carole because I haven't been nearly as vocal as you.
Namecalling aside, let me ask you this. What if a person was escorting born children into the concentration camps to their deaths? Would it be ok to call this person a monster?

reply from: Faramir

It's not a valid comparison.
Especially since in your scenario, the escort would likely be using force.
It's the mother who is using the force to take her baby to the abortionist, and the escort is keeping her company. She's not forcing the woman or encouraging the woman to abort.
I'm not excusing it--just am not going to say it's something that it ain't.
But if you care to share with me how calling an escort a "monster" (which is to demonize someone) helps the baby or the escort, I'd be willing to consider your reasons.

reply from: Faramir

The clarity of our own convictions never means we despise, demonize, or shut out other people.
Kudos to the following prolifers who were brave and humble enough to address the topic of this post:
focusbaby
teresa18
carolemarie
concernedparent
The following posters failed to address the point made at all:
yodavater (gets the award for the most dodges)
cdc700 (I would truly appreciate your thoughts about the point made)
nancyu (attempted to derail the thread--must have hit a nerve)
shenanagins (you can do it, dude)
augustine (dodged, as expected, and and attempted derailment by egotistically substituting his own words in place of Fr. Pavone's)
faithman (he's a master of demonizing and abusiveness, enjoys it thoroughly--and has Jesus' special approval, apparently, so no point in going further with that one)
sander (avoided the thread entirely--she fears being exposed for what she is)

reply from: sheri

Faramir, I agree that the best way to convert someone to your side is to be respectful. The more badwill we work up the more humility it takes for the other side to admit they are wrong, and that may mean someones life. The best way is to bring the conversation back to the babies, then you never loose.
You are wrong however about T s comparison to the deathscorts being an equivalent to deathcamp workers. Think of all the complicit workers on the train that transported the Jews, the workers who supplied the camps with food etc. If we call their actions and the actions of the deathscorts (who push us away from the women and tear up our literature) monsterous, then we are accurate. Does it help to call them "Monster" to their face? probably not unless it is in the context of opening their eyes to their sin.

reply from: Faramir

Thank you for your response, sheri.
I in no way approve of anything having to do with abortion.
However, it's fair to look at the intent, and judge culpability accordingly.
If someone is motivated to escort because there are prolife demonstrators who are chanting "whore" and "murderer" and making the women feel like worthless garbage, and they just want to walk with them to help them keep a shred of dignity, isn't that different than if someone happily intends to help kill babies? Motive and intent mean something, don't they?
The only point I had made was that because of the intent, though I feel misguided, and though I know is some participation in an evil act, renders that person somewhat less than a "monster," and it's entirely unfair to call them that, and would most certainly be "demonizing" that person.
And as you said, giving them a reason to dig in their heels even more, puts the lives of the unborn in greater danger, so our exploitation of the unborn--using them as an excuse to demean and abuse the opposition--is counterproductive.
But I know some will vigorously resist a more humble approach.
They are addicted to the feelings of superiority and worth they get from being abusive and mean, and will hold up a picture of a fetus to justify it, or will find a bible verse to justify it.

reply from: Yuuki

After reading it a few times, I have to say I fully agree.

reply from: Yuuki

Do YOU? All you ever post on here is how much you hate Faramir.

reply from: 4choice4all

Is the death penalty and act of killing or murder?
If so, are the chaplains that minister to those about to be killed implicated in the crime. Offering comfort to the afflicted is a crime?
Either way...condemn away....my house is in order. I'm just expounding on Faramir's point.

reply from: yoda

Maybe he's just really lonely and desperate for a "friend"?

reply from: yoda

So then, is it a "valid comparison" to compare that mother to a guard who took prisoners to the gas chamber?

reply from: yoda

You know the price for my cooperation, butthole, and you're not willing to pay it.
You're not willing to make one little prolife statement to get your "answer".

reply from: yoda

Decide for yourself:
Main Entry: 1 mur┬Ěder Function: noun 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=murder&x=18&y=18

Oh no wait..... what was I thinking? You don't want anything logical, you want to further distract and divide us, right?

reply from: Faramir

I can see some similarities, but there are important diferences.
The woman an escort is accompanying can change her mind any time, and it's not a done deal that she has to abort, unlike the criminal about to be executed.
If the escort in some way helps the woman to do something she otherwise would not have done, or if the escort's presence intimidates a sidewalk counselor from approaching the woman, or if the pregnant woman now has a reason to avoid the sidewalk counselor, by focusing on the escort, then the escort could be playing a part in helping some abortions occur that might not have without her presence.

reply from: Yuuki

That is the debate as to whether all killing of human beings is murder or not... and I don't believe it is.

reply from: yoda

And you also don't believe in dictionaries....... coincidence?

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion rights proponents hold the law in one hand, a dead baby in the other while they stand on the constitution of the United States at the same time. -Me

reply from: Faramir

you've once again quoted yourself, but could you address the quote which is the basis of this thread?

reply from: nancyu

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=6950&enterthread=y&STARTPAGE=7

reply from: yoda

Still unwilling to make a prolife statement, Farty?

reply from: Faramir

Does anyone who has dodged this point care to respond?
I am truly interested in knowing why this prolife leader is wrong and how despising, demonizing, or shutting out other people helps protect life in the womb.
Sorry--no trades. Respond or don't respond, but no more excuses and dodging, please.

reply from: Yuuki

Does anyone who has dodged this point care to respond?
I am truly interested in knowing why this prolife leader is wrong and how despising, demonizing, or shutting out other people helps protect life in the womb.
Sorry--no trades. Respond or don't respond, but no more excuses and dodging, please.
I think it's interesting, coming from an organization with a rather shady reputation and hazy associates in the pro-life world. Still, he does make a good point - and maybe he even believes it, although clearly most of the extremists don't.

reply from: Faramir

"Shady reputation"?
I've never heard that.


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