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What if you could have prevented Tiller's death?

A hypothetical for prolifers--and this hypothetical actually makes sense.

by: Faramir

You are on the scene the day Scott Roeder shows up at the church intending to take Tiller's life.
You see him walking up the sidewalk gun in hand and ask him what he's up to, and he tells you he intends to go into the church and kill Dr. Tiller.
Will you implore him to not do it? Will you attempt to tackle him? Will you yell or scream a warning to those ahead? (There's still time for people to run and duck for cover and get a warning to Dr. Tiller to run or hide). Will you call 911? Will you do anything at all to at least try to stop it?
In this hypothetical, nobody will know if you just let him go and do or say nothing, so you'll get no criticism from anyone for not interceding.
Would you try to prevent the murder, or would you let him go, knowing what he's going to do, and hope he's successful?

reply from: faithman

People stand by everyday, and let babies get killed at planned parenthood. If they can stand by and do nothing, then I will do the same with Scott.

reply from: JPRice

I think my actions might be to say "Scott, put that gun down"; and then from there, to try to impede his pathway...if I wished to follow He that is within me... in some ways, I ponder what my actions might be.
Took me forever to get into edit mode, but I do have to add on, I am like many others in not seeing him any different as what your Joseph Mengeles have done.

reply from: faithman

SSSOOOO you will let the abortiionist kill, but you would get in the way of someone stopping him? In other words, you will enable the evil aggressor, and go even futher by protecting him from being stopped.

reply from: JPRice

Actually, I do wonder what Faramir's views are to ask such a question. That's like asking would you kill your loved ones to save a city from a bomb or something.
I know the Bible commands us to love the least of our Brothers. That means the poor and like Mother Teresa said how does it go, that getting an abortion is poverty.
Ok, Jesus didn't hang out with Murderers, Mark was a tax collector. I would never ask this question, but as far as speculation goes ... I answered.

reply from: Banned Member

Fara, you should have known that this would give fboy an outlet to accuse others of not being pro-life if they are not willing to kill, or be an accomplice to murder. He is disturbed, no further proof should be needed.

reply from: Faramir

SSSOOOO you will let the abortiionist kill, but you would get in the way of someone stopping him? In other words, you will enable the evil aggressor, and go even futher by protecting him from being stopped.
The evil aggressor was at Church and you have no way of knowing if he retired from doing abortions.
And he is not responsible for letting the abortionist kill, the law is.
How about we change it that instead of a gun he had a hand grenade.
It's obvious he could take out Tiller, but maybe 20 more will go with him.
Would you try to prevent a grenade attack?

reply from: Faramir

And what about the rippling out effect of taking the law into our own hands?
Where does it end?
If we can justify killing an abortion docotor, we can justify killing a child molestor, who maybe deserves to die, but that's not what the law says, and what's worse is we could kill someone we THINK is a molestor, but is innocent.
The other difference is that Tiller was not roaming the streets looking for victims, like Jack the Ripper.
They were delivered to him. The people closest to the victims gave him permission.
So why would it not then also be justifiable to assault the woman coming to the clinic with the hopes the baby will be delivered at the emergency room in the hospital?
If I were in the situation of my own hypothetical, I would have done whatever I could to stop it, but I would not have unreasonably risked my own life to do so.
I don't think I would have at the moment thought any differently about it than if he were going to shoot the pastor or a child.
It was an injustice at that moment, and should be prevented if possible, regardless of what kind of person the intended victim is.

reply from: Shenanigans

If Scott would talk to me I'd try and offer him words of advice regarding why NOT to do it. Then, if he would, I'd pray my arse off to get the Lord to kick some spiritual sense into the man.
Then, if Scott continued onwards on his little homicidal crusade I'd tackle is his arse to the ground and yell at the church goers a warning. Then with my knee in his back I'd call the cops on my little cell phone.
Then when Tiller comes to shake my hand for saving him, I'd introduce myself as "Jeanette the pro-lifer" and I saved his life not so he could continue killing children, but for the sake of his soul and the chance of repentance.
If Tiller went to kill, the blood of those children would be on his hands, not mine.
And Scott wouldn't get the death penalty (is the DP legal and that state?) If Scott had killed and I hadn't done anything, and he got the DP, I'd feel responsible for not just Tiller's death but Scott's

reply from: faithman

Good thing you weren't around to rip the guns from the patriots when they aid at the red coats, or there wouldn't be an america. Go back to your precious vatican where the slaughtered children for naming their dog after the pope.

reply from: Shenanigans

Which, brings another hyopthetical to the mix, if some could argue not stopping Scott because Tiller is a killer and if we didn't we'd be responsible for teh chidlren Tiller kills, what if a pro-lifer saved a child who grew up to be the next Gacy or Bundy or Hitler? Would the deaths of those they killed be on our hands since we stopped the abortion?

reply from: faithman

The prob here is based on what they might do, not on what they have done, and are doing. Force is used to stop evil aggression.

reply from: CDC700

First off, I wouldn't attend any church that had a member of 10+ years and still practiced killing babies. On the second scenario, It was just a random guy that pulled a gun at my church, or worse yet a grenade, he'd be eating lead immediately. i WOULD NOT intentionally defend the life of an abortionist, on the same token, I WOULD NOT assist in any killing either. My Army days are long behind me. So unless it's a direct threat to my life or my families, I wouldn't elect to use deadly force.

reply from: nancyu

Of course no one knows for sure what they would have done in that moment. But having taken some time to think about it, maybe I would do what pro aborts do, and remind Scott of the consequences of NOT pulling the trigger... or if he appeared to have his mind made up I would trust him to have agonized over his decision and let him be. (hmm this is making my mind wander a little...wouldn't it be something if murder of abortionists was "legalized" so that the pro aborts weren't allowed to intervene, and could do nothing except pray for his safety, and carry signs that show what murdered people look like?) Then if he DID pull the trigger, I would offer him a goody bag with some comforting items like a Bible and some tea and chocolate, because he is probably going to be really upset about what he's done.

reply from: faithman

Of course no one knows for sure what they would have done in that moment. But having taken some time to think about it, maybe I would do what pro aborts do, and remind Scott of the consequences of NOT pulling the trigger... or if he appeared to have his mind made up I would trust him to have agonized over his decision and let him be. (hmm this is making my mind wander a little...wouldn't it be something if murder of abortionists was "legalized" so that the pro aborts weren't allowed to intervene, and could do nothing except pray for his safety, and carry signs that show what murdered people look like?) Then if he DID pull the trigger, I would offer him a goody bag with some comforting items like a Bible and some tea and chocolate, because he is probably going to be really upset about what he's done.
I posted his address so folks could express all this christian love they keep talking about, and was met with threats of mail bombs and finger chopping. So I have a hard time thinking that anyone shoulda stood in the boyz way. If you are SSSSOOOOO worried about his mind set , or the condition of his soul, write and tell him so. But all that was a farce. The bortheads, and phony pro-lifers wish he was still alive and killing babies.

reply from: Yuuki

I would have tried to stop him, by telling how much he was going to hurt the movement and make us look like loonies. Then I would have yelled if he didn't stop, and then called 911. He *thinks* he is "defending" life, but if someone jumped in front of his bullet to save Tiller's life, they would in fact be more morally right than Scott.

reply from: faithman

Sorry kiddo, you don't just look like a loony. You are prime 1A loony. That ship saile a long time ago......

reply from: Faramir

The way I see it, he's not an "abortionist" while he's at church. I wouldn't see him as such if a man were about to assault him. I'd see him has any other person and involve myself or not involve myself accordingly, and would not take into consideration what he does.
But let's say all you had to do was yell and alert a security guard.
All you have to do is yell "stop that man, he has a gun," and security will take it from there.
You know his intent is to kill Tiller and you know who Tiller is.
In any other situation, if you were unarmed, you would at least have yelled a warning, wouldn't you?
But knowing the intent of the gunman and the victim in this case, would you have remained silent, and would you have hoped he succeeded in his mission?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

If I saw someone walking up with gun in hand I certainly would not talk to him but I would call 911. It's for the police to sort out.

reply from: carolemarie

I think any normal human being, regardless of how they feel about abortion or Dr. Tiller would try to stop Scott from gunning down another human being.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is unreasonable to do more than call 911 and alert others in the area that a man has a gun.
This herioc talking a madman with a gun out of it, blocking his path, or taking a bullet is nonsense. If a person has such reckless disregard for their own safety, well, I consider that a major short-coming in the common sense area.

reply from: Faramir

It is unreasonable to do more than call 911 and alert others in the area that a man has a gun.
This herioc talking a madman with a gun out of it, blocking his path, or taking a bullet is nonsense. If a person has such reckless disregard for their own safety, well, I consider that a major short-coming in the common sense area.
That's not the main point though.
What if all you have to do is alert a security guard?
Would you do that, knowing you could be saving his life?

reply from: carolemarie

people do the unreasonable all the time to help other people....normally we call them hero's.....

reply from: Banned Member

Would I risk my life for George Tiller? NO WAY!
Would I have contacted authorities if I knew that a person was going to shoot and kill another person? Yes I would.
Do I think that fewer abortions will occur because George Tiller was shot and killed? Yes I do believe that.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It is unreasonable to do more than call 911 and alert others in the area that a man has a gun.
This herioc talking a madman with a gun out of it, blocking his path, or taking a bullet is nonsense. If a person has such reckless disregard for their own safety, well, I consider that a major short-coming in the common sense area.
That's not the main point though.
What if all you have to do is alert a security guard?
Would you do that, knowing you could be saving his life?
A person is always morally obligated to do the right thing. If someone arrives with a gun you will notify all appropriate individuals; call 911, alert a security guard, let others know.
Since I believe we must always live lawfully and orderly, I would do the same if I somehow knew in advance that only Tiller would be killed and no one else was at risk.

reply from: carolemarie

Either you oppose murder or you don't. I oppose it. No matter who is getting murdered.

reply from: Banned Member

I oppose murder. But there is no way that I would risk my life for the life of a man who has killed 60,000 human persons. Stopping murder should be the job of trained law enforcement officers.

reply from: Faramir

You don't have to risk you life in this hypothetical.
Would you make a phone call or alert a guard? Or would you let it alone, hoping the gunman would succeed?

reply from: JPRice

You have a good point there about his going to church. If I knew someone was an abortionist going to church, I would have confronted them, I'd confront them every time I saw them in church or as likely, I would be talking to the Pastor saying "We can't have this guy here" or "Make this guy explain himself" (not that there could be any explanation of this). If this did not happen, I'd find another church. I'd also write the main Synod.
I think I am seeing, this ECLA (Evangelical Lutheran Church or something) is the Synod/Denomination, this is probably more liberal of a Lutheran Church than their other Synods/Denominations like the Missouri one (they did Davey and Goliath, that tv show) and the Wisconsin one. I think Tiller's was ECLA.
This brings out a good idea. Write the ECLA!
http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/Abortion.aspx

This website tells their beliefs. My connection is slow tonight so there we can see. Ok, I got the webpage. I read something like this in the past. One of these Lutheran Churches had a rather liberal position on the situation. I think it was these guys. We've got ECLA around here. I just know we have all of the main Lutheran Churches around here.
As for the grenade scenario, it wasn't a part of it so I would not consider it. That is a whole different circumstance. I may be cowardly in this instant, but just like Fox was showing a street in San Diego with people running when someone opened fire, I would probably start running!

reply from: faithman

You don't have to risk you life in this hypothetical.
Would you make a phone call or alert a guard? Or would you let it alone, hoping the gunman would succeed?
I would first tell him to change his licience plate where he had a better chance of getting away. He wasn't very smart about it.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Generally, execution is appropriate for murderers. Tiller should have been strapped to a table and given heartstopping chemicals by the government.
Scott Roeder is guilty of gross reckless conduct. He was very disorderly, causing anarchy and confusion. He deserves a very stiff sentence. A mitigating factor is that killing Tiller is less a crime than killing an 8 or nine month old fetus. Scott should be shown some leniency and not receive the death penalty.

reply from: JPRice

This shows, Churches need to start expelling members, Catholic Church should excommunicate those who voted for Obama, starting with Sibelius and Biden.
The above statement by the Lutheran Church clearly shows having an abortionist does not fit into their Church statement. Some other Churches might have him but that Lutheran Church should not have from reading their statement.
If the Church prohibited him and perhaps, money he was donating, then this would not have happened. It is hard though for the church to do that.
In New York, a Priest said Mafiosos actually went to his Church, donated money and he didn't want to accept the money. I don't know if the Priest actually knew they were Mafiosos but he suspected them of it at least.
Maybe that's a different situation. I don't know.

reply from: JPRice

"Scott should be shown some leniency and not receive the death penalty."
The Feds are getting involved, I don't care to see the Death Penalty but it looks like they are looking into a Federal Death Penalty.

reply from: Faramir

In this sceario all you have to do is call out to the security guard.
Alerting them, with no risk to yourself, prevents the murder. If you remain silent, Tiller dies.
Do you purposely remain silent, or do you do alert the security guard and spare him?

reply from: 4choice4all

ecause of our conviction that both the life of the woman and the life in her womb must be respected by law, this church opposes:
* the total lack of regulation of abortion;
* legislation that would outlaw abortion in all circumstances;
* laws that prevent access to information about all options available to women faced with unintended pregnancies;
* laws that deny access to safe and affordable services for morally justifiable abortions;
* mandatory or coerced abortion or sterilization;
* laws that prevent couples from practicing contraception;
* laws that are primarily intended to harass those contemplating or deciding for an abortion.
That is the ECLA's thoughts on abortion. Dr. Tiller was welcomed there.

reply from: JPRice

ECLA also says this on that webpage:
"This church opposes ending intrauterine life when a fetus is developed enough to live outside a uterus with the aid of reasonable and necessary technology. If a pregnancy needs to be interrupted after this point, every reasonable and necessary effort should be made to support this life, unless there are lethal fetal abnormalities indicating that the prospective newborn will die very soon."
....
"...On the other hand, this church supports legislation that prohibits abortions that are performed after the fetus is determined to be viable, except when the mother's life is threatened or when lethal abnormalities indicate the prospective newborn will die very soon."
So, he should not have been welcome there. It's a tight line to toe because any church will be full of sinners. They should have demanded he amend his ways.

reply from: faithman

In this sceario all you have to do is call out to the security guard.
Alerting them, with no risk to yourself, prevents the murder. If you remain silent, Tiller dies.
Do you purposely remain silent, or do you do alert the security guard and spare him?
I tell the guard there is a disturbance around back so he is out of the way and won't get hurt.

reply from: Shenanigans

I think some of this also relies on the beleif that Scott might be a good shot. What if he missed Tiller and struck a pregnant woman in the belly. The chances of Scots actions going horribly wrong would be too high for me to just stand by.
Of course, the actions have happened so really, its moot.

reply from: faithman

Exactly. and a baby killer will never suck the brains out of another child.

reply from: BossMomma

I would probably physically disarm and restrain the gunman. Becoming a murderer will not do him, the babies or, the pro-life cause any good. Then I'd call police.

reply from: Faramir

It's a moot point now but not for a possible future occurrence.
There was another shooting of an abortionist that killed two bystanders, and that killer is also a hero to some, in spite of the "collateral damage" (a security guard and the wife of the doctor, I think).

reply from: Shenanigans

Its like how clinics are bombed, while I will shed no tears for bricks and cemement the risk of someone getting hurt is too high. WHat if a hobo is near by sleeping in his box and some flying abortion clinic debris lands on him? Or an old lady is hobling by after coming back from the 24/7 pharamacy to get some laxatives at 2 in the morning?
The risk is too high to justify killing abortionists or blowing up clinics.

reply from: Faramir

Its like how clinics are bombed, while I will shed no tears for bricks and cemement the risk of someone getting hurt is too high. WHat if a hobo is near by sleeping in his box and some flying abortion clinic debris lands on him? Or an old lady is hobling by after coming back from the 24/7 pharamacy to get some laxatives at 2 in the morning?
The risk is too high to justify killing abortionists or blowing up clinics.
Well at least that lady wouldn't need the laxitives if the bomb scared the sh*t out of her.

reply from: Shenanigans

That'd certainly be cheaper for her. But she might need new pants though.

reply from: kd78

i don't go to church (only visit once in a blue moon), but if i was in that situation somewhere else i would call 9-1-1 and either hide or leave post haste!
shenanigans- that type of situation is why i have trouble sometimes with groups like ALF (animal liberation front) whose members have done things like setting labs on fire after freeing animal. too much collateral damage involved. i happen to like explosions and fires so long as no one is around to get hurt in the process humans or animals.

reply from: galen

__________________________
I would try to prevent his murder... same as if a woman from our shelter intends to harm her abuser... If i was in the area i would also try to speak to Tiller about changing his ways...

reply from: ProInformed

The illegal abortionist Tiller could have prevented his own death - but he CHOSE not to.
The choicist groups, politicians, and citizens who defended his illegal operations, could have prevented his death if they had not interfered with justice - but they CHOSE not to.
The biased major media could have prevented his death by exposing his illegal paractices, instead of covering up for him, so that his illegal operations would have been legally shut down - but they CHOSE not to.
The choicist fornicators who 'need' abortions in order to live their selfishly, violently, irresonsible lifestyle, could have prevented his death - but they CHOSE not to.
Illegal abortionist Tiller CHOSE to kill babies because his desire to kill babies exceeded even his own desire to protect his own life and soul.
All this pretense that the life of one male illegal abortionist is supposedly too high a price to pay for 'free sex' and 'abortion rights'... when obviously the same choicists who are making such a huge fuss over one illegal abortionist being killed, and even the illegal abortionist himself, CHOSE to ignore that risk in preference for their zeal for 'free sex' and baby killing.
I mean it's not exaclty like any chanting choicists are now going to acknowledge that the loss of human lives is too high a price for 'free sex' and start controlling their sex urges, is it? NOPE So why even bother to pretend that the death of an illegal abortionist, who knowingly CHOSE to risk his life and soul, is somehow too great a price to pay for 'free sex'.

reply from: churchmouse

Wow what a question.
I would think that the pro-aborts would say the same thing they do when a woman walks into kill her baby. It's her body and she can do what she wants with it. They do not condone anyone intervening, in fact they think that those who stand outside and protest are wrong and the law should prevent them from doing that. Why dont they think that any pro-life person shouldnt also stand back and do nothing.

Scott used free will to kill Tiller. Tiller used free will to kill the innocent in the womb. Is there a difference? Both are doing what they believed to be right. Killing solved a problem, it got rid of the unborn in Tillers mind, and in Scotts it got rid of the baby killer.
Personally I would have witnessed to Scott about Gods law. I would share the gospel of Jesus Christ with him. I would try to prevent the murder because I do not condone violence. I would do it loud enough that the people in that godless church would have heard. Like CDC700 I would never attend a church where they allow a murderer like Tiller to usher people into their seats.
You have to do and stand up for what you think is right and let God do the rest. I often give the homeless on the side of the road money. My friend said they probably go buy booze with it. But I am doing what is right by helping them and what they do with it is out of my control, hopfully they buy food or clothing. The "what ifs" don't matter to me in this case. In the case of Scott.....I would witness to him and remind him of Gods wrath on those who sin against him. The murder of Tiller is a sin.......and he would have to pay. I would also ask the Holy Spirit to intervene in what was going on and in changing his heart.
You just cant get passed this can you?
Hi actions don't make us look like loonies to anyone with a brain. This was one act of violence in how many years. Read Crutchers last blog on this. The violence is so incredibly low its not worth mentioning. It is being blown way out of proportion. The only reason this is a high profile news event is because Tiller was a big name in the killing business. He was PP and the pro-aborts poster boy hero. they want to make a big deal about it because they got nothin else so they have to grab that brass ring when they can. If this guy had been an unknown big ole blow fish Janet Napolitano wouldnt have said squat about it.
You have got to be kidding me. So anyone that walks into a church is sin free? Why if he is in church is he not an abortionist?
Of course I would have yelled for help. How would I know at that point if he was only going to shoot Tiller. Maybe he would have gone for his wife in the choir. Maybe he would have killed the pastor. Maybe the bullet could have injured another innocent person who was a witness.
You have to do what is right by scriptures and let God do the rest.
As for the penalty Scott should get.......maybe Scott was insane at the time and he should go that route for a defense. He did some pretty dumb stuff to get caught so fast....like I am sure Tiller would have used it. He was a madman.
Federal Death Penalty ? Don't get why this would apply.

reply from: JPRice

That's a great post Pro-Informed.
I have so many bookmarked pages in no particular order but a tiny bit related is this link http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/death-treat-issued-to-operation-rescue-in-wake-of-obama-victory/ from Operation Rescue, "Death Threat issued to OR":
I did think of this prior to finding this article:
"The threat indicated that any act of "anti-abortion terror" would be "ANSWERED IN KIND BY PRO-CHOICE COUNTERTERRORISTS, who will mount violent attacks against right-to-lifers."
I doubt if much will come from this, but the Pro-Choicers already have their blood frenzy, it is something to be aware of.

reply from: Faramir

Thanks for your response churchmouse.
As far as this point goes, I meant that I would not look at an intended victim as an abortionist, policeofficer, doctor, student, or whatever. When paramedics arrive at a scene, I don't think they let a criminal bleed to death. They help everone equally, and that's all I meant by comment--not that being at church made him better.

reply from: JPRice

Faramir: Not sure if there was an incident where bystanders were "shot." Maybe you mean the bombing.
"Eric Rudolph, 36, is charged with the 1998 bombing of a Birmingham abortion clinic that killed an off-duty police officer and critically injured a nurse. "
http://crime.about.com/od/current/a/rudolph.htm

reply from: CDC700

Truth be told, there are no "innocent bystanders" working in an abortion house. They are all assisting in the killing of babies.

reply from: JPRice

I'd never do it, if I were a Security Guard and the way the Security Companies send people out on different assignments, I'd say "no".
If I was employed by a security company that had a contract there, I would likewise, probably quit my job.

reply from: 4choice4all

Unless you had convictions and swore to uphold the law and protect citizens irregardless of ideology.

reply from: Cecilia

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.

reply from: nancyu

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?

reply from: CDC700

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
OUCH!

reply from: 4choice4all

abortion is not murder. Murder is illegal...by definition. This country has had 36 years of legal abortions and now we have at least 4 more under a prochoice president...and a president that will likely have a few SCOTUS seats to fill.....abortion is going to be legal for quite a while. And THAT makes me sleep better.

reply from: CDC700

36 years doesn't make it right. By definition, it IS murder. And that is a shame. The fact that there is one less abortionist in the world, makes me sleep better at night.

reply from: 4choice4all

What is the definition of murder? unlawful premeditated killing...um, it's not unlawful.

reply from: CDC700

Keep telling yourself that.

reply from: JPRice

4ChoiceforOnlyWomenAndNotTheUnborn
Slavery, 1604-1865
Slave owners as we saw could even dispose of their Servants, Slave law.

reply from: 4choice4all

Keep denying reality.

reply from: Cecilia

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.

reply from: Faramir

She's consistent, though. Except for the privileged few whose butts are smooth from her kisses, she's that way to prolifers too.
I've seen some of the nastiest and cruelest people imaginable online, but never one so calculatingly cold and cruel, and so skillful at slipping in the knife and twisting it, as this one. She's a real study.

reply from: ProInformed

Many, many, many pro-lifers did all they could to prevent the illegal abortionist George Tiller's death.
But the biased media, abortion industry, chanting choicists, and corrupt pro-abort polticians kept right on applauding his illegal operations which ultimately led to his death.
Besides, the illegal abortionist Tiller CHOSE, KNOWINGLY CHOSE, to risk his own life every single day when he CHOSE to continue work as an illegal abortionist (unlike the women he endangered who are falsely assured he was 'safe' and unlike the thousands and thousands of innocent babies he killed).
Tiller, the illegal abortionist CHOSE to risk both his life and soul because he was so sociopatically obsessed with killing babies and endangering women.
Here's a much better question than yours BTW:
What if the media who helped cover up Tillers illegal and dangerous operations had exposed how he did business instead of complicitly covering for him?
What if the abortion industry and it's lobby groups had done what they claim to do - had put Tiller the dangerous and illegal abortionist out of business?
What if the chanting choicists really did care about the safety and rights of women?
What if the corrupt politicians who helped him get away with breaking the law did their job of representing the citizens instead of defending Tiller the illegal abortionist?
Then Tiller would still be alive today.
He might be in jail but he'd be alive.
Ah but the biased media, abortion industry, chanting choicists, and corrupt pro-abort polticians didn't want to give up 'free sex' and 'abortion rights' in order to save Tiller's life and soul, did they?
And Tiller himself said he'd rather go to hell than to stop killing babies;
therefore it's not even logical to boo-hoo over the fate he CHOSE for himself AND that you choicist drama queens - hand to forehead feigned grief over the death of a 'hero' dangerous illegal abortionist - failed to save him from.
Besides if Tiller had chosen to allow that other illegal killing kook Kervorkian to kill him, we all know you chanting choicists would be defending his killer then wouldn't you?
It's not unusual for abortionists to become suicidal.
Tiller wanted to go to hell.
Tiller had a death wish for himself which came true with the help of the media, abortion industry, choicist citizens, and corrupt pro-abort politicians.
And we all know that his death is being celebrated with glee by the abortion industry that can now use his death to try to strip all pro-life citizens of their civil rights.
So enough of the faux grief already.

reply from: yoda

Do you have a better answer today, Cecilia?
Do women who electively kill their babies exert "fatal control" over them?

reply from: yoda

What an excellent question, mama ace!

reply from: yoda

You love to quibble about a legal technicality, don't you?
How about "legalized murder"? Better?

reply from: yoda

How about brooding in agony over the 4,000 abortions other women have every day in this country?
Don't they cause you any loss of sleep? Or are you "extremely selective" in your compassion?

reply from: yoda

Yes she is.
She's consistently on the side of the unborn. Sorry I can't say the same about you.

reply from: nancyu

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.
Where did I say a word about your abortion? Or wishing you would "brood in agony"? I asked a simple question, if you want to read more into it than is there, maybe you should ask yourself why.

reply from: Cecilia

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.
Where did I say a word about your abortion? Or wishing you would "brood in agony"? I asked a simple question, if you want to read more into it than is there, maybe you should ask yourself why.
right, i can see your halo from here.

reply from: ProInformed

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.
Where did I say a word about your abortion? Or wishing you would "brood in agony"? I asked a simple question, if you want to read more into it than is there, maybe you should ask yourself why.
You didn't say that but Cecelia apparently interpreted it that way because she perhaps does secretly have some feeling of remorse over allowing her baby to be killed. She punished her innoncent baby for what her abusive husband did.
She now has to try to keep herself convinced that killing innocent babies somehow saves women from spousal abuse... that there supposedly is no other effective way to stop spousal abuse besides killing your baby.

reply from: 4choice4all

You guys are so pathetically transparent.

reply from: ProInformed

What if those who chant that they supposedly care about women could have prevented the number one cause of death to pregnant women being murdered by 'pro-choice' male because those women refsued to 'choose' to 'abort in (HIS) demand'?
Oh wait they could have prevented that IF they really cared enough about women or even 'choice' to condemn those male murderers even a fraction of the way they rant and rave when one male illegal abortionists gets killed.
But INSTEAD they chose to sit silently by while more and more pro-abort males became so convinced they're entitled to EXPECTING and DEMANDING that the women they impregnate to abort, is OK.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/23/earlyshow/main675945.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30807871/

Oh and here is at least an acknowledgement from a choicist group that being murdered while pregnant is the number one cause of death to pregnant women,
MINUS any criticism of the pro-abort motive for most of such murders,
and with a thinly veiled disgusting attempt to pretend the cause of the risk is the pregnancy itself - not the sociopathic pro-abort mentality and motive of the killers:
http://www.now.org/issues/violence/043003pregnant.html

reply from: 4choice4all

Domestic Violence is never ok.
Women are also killed when they decide to leave men....domestic violence situation. Do you suggest we make marriage illegal...since some men kill women when they want out...or when the man wants out but doesn't want to pay child support or alimony? Of course not. You don't blame the institutions....you blame the individuals and you help the victims.

reply from: galen

no form of violence is ok.. spouse to spouse or parent to child...

reply from: CDC700

Domestic violence can and often is against men too. I don't expect you to include that since you are all about a woman's right to kill.

reply from: 4choice4all

Are you blaming that on abortion too?

reply from: CDC700

By legal definition, abortion should be considered domestic violence.

reply from: 4choice4all

Really? abortion is legal...domestic violence isn't.

reply from: yoda

Doesn't change the fact that abortion is violent, and often it is "domestic". So it's "domestic violence".

reply from: Rosalie

By legal definition, abortion should be considered domestic violence.
The woman's body is not a house. She has and always should have the ultimate say so about what happens to and inside of her body, regardless of whether there is a fetus in it or not.

reply from: JPRice

OUtmoded 1960s radical philosophy is all Rosalee says, thank goodness, such is being seen as the dinosaur it is as well.
You belive in no one's else's rights.
Don't push your morality on others!

reply from: Banned Member

So, when will you get around to blaming the guy who actually pulled the trigger? He is solely accountable for his death, unless there were people behind the scenes encouraging him to do it.

reply from: Rosalie

It's neither outmoded nor radical. And you can't even spell my name right, pfff.
But thanks for trying. It was feeble but very amusing.

reply from: Yuuki

By legal definition, abortion should be considered domestic violence.
The woman's body is not a house. She has and always should have the ultimate say so about what happens to and inside of her body, regardless of whether there is a fetus in it or not.
You do not have the legal right to kill someone because they are in your personal space.

reply from: Faramir

Good points, but can they be verified?

reply from: Faramir

Keep telling yourself that.
So are you another one who says that abortion is illegal?
If so, may I ask if you've reported any suspected abortion activity to the authorities?

reply from: Cecilia

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.
Where did I say a word about your abortion? Or wishing you would "brood in agony"? I asked a simple question, if you want to read more into it than is there, maybe you should ask yourself why.
You didn't say that but Cecelia apparently interpreted it that way because she perhaps does secretly have some feeling of remorse over allowing her baby to be killed. She punished her innoncent baby for what her abusive husband did.
She now has to try to keep herself convinced that killing innocent babies somehow saves women from spousal abuse... that there supposedly is no other effective way to stop spousal abuse besides killing your baby.
your empathy is disarming. you chose abortion just like i did- you should get behind me. difference between you and i is that i take responsbility and own up my choice and you continue to blame other.
abortion kept me from further spousal abuse so in my situaton it did work. but i dont expect you to understand 'nuances' or 'delicacies' in anyone's life because you are black/white.

reply from: JPRice

Outmoded Feminism: That it is.
Bra Burning, Tattooed, Pierced, Frizzy hair, Evil.

reply from: Yuuki

DO you even understand WHY women did the above things? Ignorance... Unless you're being facetious?

reply from: JPRice

Grand Torino, great movie!
Hmong women don't get abortions!
So much good comes from them!

reply from: Shenanigans

That's because we're all ghosts... WoooOOOOoooooOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

reply from: Shenanigans


Thats such a load of crap.
If a 15 year old wants to donate her kidney to save her cousin or friend she can't just do it. But if she wants to have an abortion, in most states she can get one without even her parents knowing.
There are HEAPS of laws that prevent what a woman, or anyone, can do or not do with their bodies.

reply from: 4choice4all

Do you believe a 15 yo should be forced to abort by her parents? then why forced to gestate?
But the state only gets involved when it's deemed to have a recognizable interest. The state doesn't recognize a fetus as having rights so it has no interest to protect if a woman wants an abortion.

reply from: Shenanigans

I don't believe ANYONE should be able to abort.
Basically anything that actively kills a human life is bad in my books, so if parents were forcing their child to abort then I wouldn't support it, but I wouldn't support a teen having an abortion.
Shouldn't the cousin in renal failure be of the govt.'s concern? Why then,if she's dying, and there's a willing, matched, donor shouldn't that donor be able to give her kidney, regardless of her age? Why would the govt want to be responsible for athe cousin to langish on the waiting list for a transplant when there's one right there?

reply from: 4choice4all

But do you support a 15 yo making her own choices about her pregnancy?
No...a person's health is not a state issue. They can not force people to give kidneys....they should never be involved in medical choices.

reply from: yoda

Were you afraid that your baby was going to abuse you, Cecilia?
Still waiting to know...... is killing someone an act of "control" over them?

reply from: yoda

"Nature" forces women to gestate when they become pregnant, unless they arbitrarily kill the baby.
The proabort's answer to all problems is "kill, kill, kill"........

reply from: Cecilia

Were you afraid that your baby was going to abuse you, Cecilia?
Still waiting to know...... is killing someone an act of "control" over them?
how is that any bit related to spousal abuse? do you have any idea what you are talking about?
it is such a thing that really, really ignorant people want to tell others how to live their lives.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Were you afraid that your baby was going to abuse you, Cecilia?
Still waiting to know...... is killing someone an act of "control" over them?
how is that any bit related to spousal abuse? do you have any idea what you are talking about?
it is such a thing that really, really ignorant people want to tell others how to live their lives.
Cecilia just believes moms should lawfully be allowed to engage in domestic violence against their children; including killing them. Get rid of the pesky rats. A woman needs her freedom.

reply from: CDC700

Wow, did I just read that? (rubbing my eyes)

reply from: nancyu

Wow, did I just read that? (rubbing my eyes)
Wow. is right.

reply from: nancyu

it's not short coming of common sense. if someone was after your family would you be such a coward?
i would have tried to save his life. I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen.
Cecilia..............Cecilia.......................................Cecilia I could not sleep at night knowing that someone premediated murder and I knew something about it and let it happen. Are you sleeping at night?
why yes of course I am. why? doyou wish me up brooding in agony over an abortion i had many years ago with an abusive husband?
you are very sad person to be so malicous.
Where did I say a word about your abortion? Or wishing you would "brood in agony"? I asked a simple question, if you want to read more into it than is there, maybe you should ask yourself why.
right, i can see your halo from here.
I don't have a halo Cecilia. But I'm not malicious either. You are just swallowing what some folks on here like to believe about me.
I'm not out to convict each and every woman who has had an abortion. I am out to help to try to change every person who supports the "legality" of abortion. (yes, it's daunting but I keep on trying) And I don't believe in offering preferential treatment to those who have personally made "the choice."
My question was to open your eyes to your own hypocrisy, since abortion is murder of a child. Whether you have a "really good reason" or don't. And if you're one of those who like to jump up and down saying "but it's legal" I'll point out that there is a huge difference between something being "legal" and something being "government sanctioned"
Keep this in mind and remember that the status quo can turn on a dime. And there may come a day when it is just as "legal" to murder pro aborts. You might want to learn a prayer or two that the new status quo will be less malicious and more merciful than the present one is.

reply from: yoda

I was asking you a question, not making a statement. Did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence?
More to the point, what were you talking about? How did killing your baby "save you" from spousal abuse?
Oh, and BTW, do you consider electively killing someone to be a way of "controlling" them?

reply from: yoda

Cecilia has misandrist tendencies, and thinks that killing babies is good because at least half the time it's a male that gets killed.

reply from: yoda

I borrowed your halo, mama ace. I'll return it in a few days, okay?
I didn't even know Cecilia was post-abortive until she screamed it out. Your post didn't even give me a clue that she was.

reply from: faithman

Cecilia has misandrist tendencies, and thinks that killing babies is good because at least half the time it's a male that gets killed.
Hey papa ACE, you need to pull out your dictionary. You kown that everyone has told you how thick headed bubba ACE is....

reply from: yoda

Gotcha covered, bubba ace:
mis-an-dry - noun
hatred of males.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misandrist&r=66

reply from: faithman

OOOOOOOHHHHH? That is a prerequasit to be a borthead scanc, ain't it? Just sayin.....

reply from: ProInformed

"Question: Can the heart of a fetus or embryo still be beating during a suction
curettage abortion as the fetus or embryo comes down the cannula?
Answer: For a few seconds to a minute, yes."
(Sworn testimony given in US District Court for the Western District of Wisconsin
(Madison, WI, May 27, 1999, Case No. 98-C-0305-S), by Dr. Harlan Raymond Giles, an abortionist. He describes legal activity.)

reply from: ProInformed

Cecilia has misandrist tendencies, and thinks that killing babies is good because at least half the time it's a male that gets killed.
Actually there are a lot of bimbos who will do anything to get to have 'relationships' with bimboys - even kill their own babies.
The porn and prostitution industries and their employees and customers are FANatic abortion industry supporters.

reply from: ProInformed

Were you afraid that your baby was going to abuse you, Cecilia?
Still waiting to know...... is killing someone an act of "control" over them?
More likely she knew a guy she wanted to have a 'relationship' with prefers childless females so she killed her baby.

reply from: faithman

http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby11.html

reply from: ProInformed

If domestic violence were legal, let's say specifically it were legal for a 'pro-choice' male to kill his pregnant wife or girlfriend if she refused to 'choose' to abort on demand - HIS DEMAND, would you choicists think that's OK?
Oh wait - you already do condone and encourage that don't you,
with your apathy and your pretense that those murders are not cases of fatal pro-abort coercion, right?

reply from: ProInformed

You love to quibble about a legal technicality, don't you?
How about "legalized murder"? Better?
Abortionists are legalized hitmen.
The fact that what they are doing is legal makes what they're doing even more ghastly - um to the sane and civicl citizens that is.
What Hitler's goons did was legal too.
Under Islamic law it's legal for males to kill females for all sorts of reasons.
So what if it's legal?
So was slavery.
The real monsters in society, the ones who enable the greatest atrocities to occur,
are the ones who can so easily soothe their conscience with the 'well it's legal' chant that barbaric holocausts continue unchallenged by them.
BTW a lot of what Tiller was doing was NOT legal but instead of putting him out of business to protect women from a dangerously and illegally operating abortionist, the chanting choicers defended him and helped him stay in business.

reply from: ProInformed

Just a few of the deaths the chanting choicists chose to not try to prevent:
http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2009/06/anniversary-one-of-dozen.html


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