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TILLER DEAD!!!

he was shot to death in his Church

by: galen

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31029377/
My God what have we come too?? Its bad enough what he did but now we will have to answer for another lunatic out there shooting people...

reply from: galen

http://www.kwch.com/global/story.asp?s=10451609

reply from: 4given

Operation Rescue Denounces The Killing of Abortionist Tiller
May 31st, 2009
Wichita, KS - It has been learned today that George Tiller was shot and killed while entering his church on Sunday morning, May 31.
Operation Rescue releases the following statement attributable to Troy Newman, President:
We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.

reply from: galen

http://www.foxnews.com/

reply from: galen

http://abcnews.go.com/?lid=ABCCOMGlobalMenu&lpos=News

reply from: 4given

WICHITA, Kan. - DEVELOPING: Media outlets are reporting that late-term abortion doctor George Tiller has been shot and killed at his church in Wichita, Kan.
Anonymous police sources told The Wichita Eagle and other media that the 67-year-old doctor was killed Sunday morning at Reformation Lutheran Church.
Police spokesman Gordon Bassham would not confirm the victim's identity pending notification of relatives but said a 67-year-old "high-profile individual in the community" was shot and killed.
Tiller has been among the few U.S. physicians performing late-term abortions. His clinic has repeatedly been the site of protests for about two decades and he was shot and wounded by a protester in 1993.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523581,00.html

reply from: galen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8076253.stm

reply from: galen

yeah... we are not heartless people like you... you use this man's death for your entertainment... what a sicko.

reply from: galen

yeah... this is obviously your entertainment...otherwise you would not be here spinny...
This man's death is nothing to you but a way to spend time... if you were truely against this death, and not just sensationalising it, we would hear a lot more from yu on ALL murder, ALL terrorism, and ALL injustice... get a life spinny...

reply from: galen

just so spinny does not forget who we fought against
http://www.justiceforchristin.com/
http://www.justiceforchristin.com/christin.htm

it does not however excuse gunning down someone in a church or any where else.

reply from: galen

and spinny's brand of terrorism..
http://www.prochoiceviolence.com/

reply from: galen

technically it was... manson was pro choice... but hey... you just want to be able to go cry to mommy when your feelings are hurt spinny...
If you are not a non violent person you have no right to complain when violence comes knocking on your door...

reply from: galen

http://www.prochoiceviolence.com/more.html

reply from: galen

"I was told to antagonize the pro-lifers and I made the girls throw out any pro-life literature before entering the clinic. ... We would tell them, "Those people out there are terrorists, it's safer in here. They're crazy." I even told one group, "That woman out there was just released from Meadowview Mental Hospital. Don't talk to her; she killed her family." ... As soon as I got here last August, I joined the "Freedom of Choice Action League." They're big at Pine and Market. Some of them practice witchcraft and sometimes they chalk pentagrams [a Satanic symbol] on the sidewalks. ... I had written about how they openly practice witchcraft and how the clinic director tells us, every time we beat up the pro-lifers, to cover their cameras. ... I wrote [in an editorial to the Wichita Eagle] that pro-abortionists displayed sex toys in front of children and how they dumped semen and urine on people at national rescues. I personally defaced churches, LIFE, Inc., and HopeNet. I apologize for that. ... They hate God, they're anti-Christian ...
"Pro-abortionists are the terrorists, not the pro-lifers. They're the ones throwing bricks through people's windows and doing obscene things. I was shocked when I went to the Crypt to pray and they were screaming and yelling, shouting obscenities, while all the pro-lifers were praying silently."
- Reformed pro-abortion activist Raymond Rivera.[1]

reply from: galen

http://abortionviolence.com/0.HTM#SECT5

reply from: 4given

Bound4LIFE releases the following statement:
We are deeply grieved and shocked by this morning's news that abortionist George Tiller was murdered in Wichita, KS. Bound4LIFE believes in and encourages the peaceful, legal methods of public assembly for the purpose of prayer. We denounce the violent act committed today against Mr. Tiller and his family. We believe that all human life is unique and precious to God.
Please join us in praying for the Tiller family during this tragedy.
http://bound4life.com/blog/2009/05/31/bound4life-denounces-killing-of-george-tiller

reply from: 4given

Stand True - Christ Centered Pro-life denounces the murder of abortionist George Tiller
"You cannot murder people and call it pro-life - Stand True denounces the murder of abortionist George Tiller."
Troy, OH May 31, 2009 - Stand True - Christ Centered Pro-life denounces the murder of abortionist George Tiller this morning in Wichita, KS. "We cannot kill people in the name of pro-life." said Bryan Kemper, President of Stand True. "Answering the violence of abortion with more violence will not serve the babies or help the pro-life movement in any way".
While Stand True is committed to ending the killing of innocent children through abortion, we are committed to non-violent, peaceful action. The pro-life movement cannot take the law into their own hands and turn to vigilantly justice.
We are praying for the family of George Tiller and those in his church while he was shot. We know that healing can come through Jesus and pray those involved in the abortion industry will turn to Christ.
Bryan Kemper, President of Stand True is available for comment - 540-538-2581
Stand True is a Christ centered youth pro-life organization committed to educating, activating and equipping this generation to stand for life - www.standtrue.com

reply from: yoda

"We" will?
Am I the only one who is willing to wait until someone is captured, tried, and convicted before I declare the whole prolife movement "guilty"?
All of us? Even our kids?

reply from: galen

no you missed the point...
one that people like spinny are quite happy to illustrate...
people will assume again that its a prolifer...

reply from: Yuuki

And this is why I do not approve of vigilantes. Whoever shot him is not pro-life or Christian, although I bet they think they are. Now they will have to answer to God for this murder, and if they don't feel remorse (and I bet they don't) they will go to Hell for it.
Galen, who else would it be? Who else has any reason to kill Tiller?

reply from: scopia19822

Tiller had his hand in numerous things. It could have been a bad business deal, he could have swidolled money out of someone .

reply from: galen

from what i've read over the years this guy was not always a nice person... he could have made any number of people mad. because of his job anyone who wanted to harm him could have set it up to look like a prolifer did it... maybe he owed the wrong people ...* shrug*

reply from: galen

maybe spinny did it...

reply from: Skippy

Um... Who else would it be? Someone who supports abortion rights isn't going to kill a doctor who performs abortions.
The news is already up on the Army Of God website. Needless to say, they are quite pleased.

reply from: galen

who knows .. Tiller could have had an affair, owed money, about to out someone politically...*shrug*. when you get that perfect 100% on a psi test then you can predict, otherwise we need to wait and see.

reply from: scopia19822

We cannot rule out anything until they catch the guy galen. He has pissed off a number of people not just the obvious. What if it turns out it was not an antiabortionist, but someone he owed money too or what.

reply from: scopia19822

According to msmnbc they have arrested a suspect, but not releasing anything it looks like just yet.

reply from: Faramir

This is sad news, and will not be anything positive for the prolife cause.
It's sad for the peson who did it too, because he or she was likely to have been duped by the pro-violence groups, and just ended up doing their dirty work and paying the price for it.

reply from: scopia19822

I had just come home from church (Im back in the Presbyterian Church for now) and was upstairs changing when my husband pulled up the link. I felt relived that he could not kill anymore, but they have just made a martyr out of him. Tiller broke the law and was investigated many times for something or another. I was hoping to see the man in prision for breaking SOME law not dead.

reply from: galen

possibly... at least now we will know who what when and why...
maybe its a radical prochoicer that wanted to make the prolifers look nuts...

reply from: galen

NARAL Pro-Choice America
"On behalf of NARAL Pro-Choice America, our prayers and thoughts are with Dr. Tiller's family and friends at this moment, a moment that fills us with immeasurable shock and deep sadness.For almost two decades, Dr. Tiller and those individuals who helped provide care to his patients have lived under intense harassment tinged with persistent threats of violence. Even under these adverse circumstances, Dr. Tiller never wavered in his commitment to providing abortion services and other reproductive health care to women and their families, often in the most difficult and heart-breaking circumstances.
Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita.
We understand that the investigation is ongoing and that law-enforcement officials are pursuing a suspect. If it proves to be an act of anti-abortion violence, as we suspect it is, then the full weight of the law must be used to send a clear message that these types of attacks will be prosecuted fully and swiftly.
We also call on opponents of a woman's right to choose to condemn this action completely and absolutely. What happened today in Wichita cannot become the beginning of a more aggressive wave of violence targeting abortion providers and the women for whom they provide care. Women accessing their legal right to abortion -- and the providers who make this possible -- should never be targets of violence."
--Nancy Keenan, president, NARAL Pro-Choice America
_________________________
what... only go after someone if they are prolife?? what about anyone else?

reply from: 4choice4all

Just last week at the clinic we were reviewing previous logs about Saturday protests and the police have been called for increasing blatant violations by the prolifers. A fellow escort that has been doing this for nearly 20 years commented that we might have to go back to wearing bullet proof vests. Us newer escorts couldn't fathom it....and here we go. This is unreal to me...I'm shaken to my core. Dr. Tiller was a hero to so many of us....RIP Dr. Tiller.

reply from: Yuuki

Oh Galen, it's just wishful thinking on your part... As I said on the other thread, even if it's not a pro-lifer, the fault will land on us. They will suspect us of celebrating his death; and there is nothing pro-life about that.

reply from: scopia19822

There are some prochoicers who are oppossed to what he did. Most of the ones I have known personally only support abortion in the first trimester and not at all in the 2nd and 3rd trimesters for any reason medical or otherwise. The choicers on here who support it for any reason through 9 months are extremenist.

reply from: 4choice4all

there are people here amongst us that will find it justified. They call for the death of people like me...mothers, wives, daughters....people that feel called to help women in desperate situations...over ideology.

reply from: scopia19822

Well this prolifer does not want to see you dead,. I think you are wrong on what you do and I will tell you that, but the utlimate judgement is Gods and Tiller has now met his Maker.

reply from: galen

_____________________________________
Tiller a hero... 90% of the pro choice community could not stand this man...Are you really really saying this... or was it a quote that you picked up and did not properly ID..??

reply from: scopia19822

A bullet proof vest isnt going to protect anyone from head wound. Tiller was a murderer and will now have to answer for that to Almighty God.

reply from: Faramir

">http://www.priestsforlife.org/...31-tiller-death.htm[/q

reply from: galen

i think she is quoting Tiller and not using a proper ID for the quote...
OR JUST TRYING TO FAN THE FIRE...
ANYWAY IGNORE HER..

reply from: galen

All the Tiller sites seem to be down... including his.

reply from: 4choice4all

No..I personally think he is a hero...and many did. And yes, a bullet proof vest won't protect 100% but is better than nothing. I'm not fanning flames....this has rocked me to my core.

reply from: Yuuki

Yeah, even as a pro-choicer I thought Tiller was despicable.

reply from: scopia19822

You are a minority among choicers. Most I know and have debated both online and in person only support first trimester abortions. Are you aware of HOW Tiller killed these bables, that if they had been wanted could have been delivered early and mostly likey survived? I oppose all abortions but I find post viable abortions especially henious. Well you can mourn the man, I wont.

reply from: galen

_______________________
People used Tiller for thier own agendas... and he used them right back...
there was never any medical reason to send a woman to him for a late term ab... IF THERE WERE THE MD DIAGNOSING the mom would have done the procedure themselves...
Tiller was no hero... and he will continue to cause pain and harm for a long time after this incident has been put to rest.
Having children into a toilet bowl is never dignified and never correct...

reply from: Yuuki

I'm rocked to my core as well, over the complete and utter disregard this murderer had for everyone in this debate. I just want to shake him and ask "DO you know what you've done, you fool!?" And I'm disturbed every time a person in the media is murdered.

reply from: scopia19822

I am waiting to find out the motive. I sadly beleive it was an anti abortionist, but if it turns out not to be I will be relieved.

reply from: yoda

People will ASSume lots of things that are either incorrect or not yet proven... all of which will be shown to be idiocy if some other motive was the reason for this killing. Tiller did not live in a vacuum, there could've been any number of other reasons for this action.
Instead of jumping on the bandwagon and bemoaning the fact that "prolifers did it"..... why not WAIT until someone has been apprehended, tried, and convicted?
What is this madness that affects you? Are we lemmings to join with the proaborts in condemning ourselves before anyone has even been caught?

reply from: yoda

Is that how we convict people in this country? We simply say "who else would've done it", and pronounce them guilty? Is that "choicer justice", or what?

reply from: scopia19822

People will ASSume lots of things that are either incorrect or not yet proven... all of which will be shown to be idiocy if some other motive was the reason for this killing. Tiller did not live in a vacuum, there could've been any number of other reasons for this action.
Instead of jumping on the bandwagon and bemoaning the fact that "prolifers did it"..... why not WAIT until someone has been apprehended, tried, and convicted?
What is this madness that affects you? Are we lemmings to join with the proaborts in condemning ourselves before anyone has even been caught?
Yoda sadly I think most likely it was an anti abortionist, however it could have been a number of things. Hell Tiller could have been having an affair with another mans wife.

reply from: yoda

Look on the bright side. Maybe Father Frank will get to pay someone that reward now.

reply from: yoda

You're worried about what "they will suspect"?
Good grief, take a pill or something!

reply from: yoda

Is that a prediction, or an ASSumption?

reply from: yoda

"However" is right. Regardless of the fact that he was the most visible symbol of baby killing in this land, that is not enough to convict a whole movement OR a single person.
Let's keep our heads and wait until there is AT LEAST a suspect in custody before we go tearing our clothes and piling ashes on our heads. NO ONE acts on behalf of the entire prolife movement, each of us is an individual and responsible for our own actions.

reply from: yoda

He has long had a standing offer of about $50,000 reward to anyone turning in someone for committing violence against an abortionist or their staff.

reply from: yoda

Not gonna happen... unless it turns out to be a leader of a large national prolife organization who did it. And that's very unlikely.

reply from: scopia19822

He has long had a standing offer of about $50,000 reward to anyone turning in someone for committing violence against an abortionist or their staff.
Father Frank is a sell out. While I am all about non violence in abortion protest, I think Fr. Frank cares more about placating the abortion lobby than stopping the practice.

reply from: galen

AHHHH... seems i did hear about that a while back..
thx Yoda

reply from: galen

He has long had a standing offer of about $50,000 reward to anyone turning in someone for committing violence against an abortionist or their staff.
Father Frank is a sell out.
________________
what?
why because he is RCC?
violence only begets more violence...

reply from: yoda

"A suspect was in custody, but authorities did not release any other information." LA Times......

reply from: yoda

While I disagree with Father Frank Pavone on some things, I think you're being a bit harsh on him. He's devoted his whole career to exposing abortion, and he's entitled to make some errors in judgment. Even a few serious ones.

reply from: galen

might be time to go private...didi you see the worm?

reply from: scopia19822

He has long had a standing offer of about $50,000 reward to anyone turning in someone for committing violence against an abortionist or their staff.
Father Frank is a sell out.
________________
what?
why because he is RCC?
violence only begets more violence...
Not because he is a Catholic, because he wants to sit down and make nice with the prochoice side. It is one thing to denounce violence but to offer a reward is beyond that point.

reply from: scopia19822

While I disagree with Father Frank Pavone on some things, I think you're being a bit harsh on him. He's devoted his whole career to exposing abortion, and he's entitled to make some errors in judgment. Even a few serious ones.
I am sorry Yoda, but anyone who wants to sit down with the proabortion lobby is a sell out.

reply from: galen

i think ANYONE who reports violence... to ANYONE should be rewarded... maybe if more people spoke up less death and injury would occure... to ANYONE...

reply from: yoda

I guess not..... what worm?

reply from: galen

the one attatchede to the troll...i'm having a lot of fun w/ him....

reply from: scopia19822

I saw this coming for Tiller for a long time, the man was evil and bound to get shot sooner or later. It is sad that he never repented and mended his ways, there might have been a chance for his soul, but I fear that is not the case now. I only am relived that he cannot kill anymore, but I wished he could have been stopped by less violent means.

reply from: yoda

OR a soft headed fool........ and I prefer to think the latter.....

reply from: yoda

Yeah, any jury in the world would convict on the word of CNN, right? You've got nothing but unsubstantiated rumors? That's it?

reply from: galen

__________________
hearsay so far spinny...unless his church was there at his clinic... how would they know who was repeat or not?

reply from: galen

BTW spinny, the lutheran church as a whole is opposed to abortion.
seems that maybe parishoners are vieing for limelite... evryone else is remaining silent. I'll wait untill someone runs the plate # and reports a name.

reply from: Faramir

He has long had a standing offer of about $50,000 reward to anyone turning in someone for committing violence against an abortionist or their staff.
Father Frank is a sell out.
________________
what?
why because he is RCC?
violence only begets more violence...
Not because he is a Catholic, because he wants to sit down and make nice with the prochoice side. It is one thing to denounce violence but to offer a reward is beyond that point.
He simply sees the personhood in all of us, born and unborn, saint and sinner.
And what's wrong with offering a reward? It shows that he meant what he said and was not winking at the vionlence.

reply from: Skippy

Because the anti-choice freak shows held protests at Dr. Tiller's church.

reply from: yoda

What's wrong with just letting the police do their job? Why do we need to get involved in law enforcement? Would you like it if we formed a posse and went out and investigated this murder too?

reply from: galen

i only heard of 1-2 at his church years ago...hardly a stalker from the prolife camp.
besides protests are what makes the country great...

reply from: Faramir

What's wrong with just letting the police do their job? Why do we need to get involved in law enforcement? Would you like it if we formed a posse and went out and investigated this murder too?
I think it was important that he make a statement that the pro-life community as he sees it and identifies with it, abhors such violence.
I don't see offering a reward as "forming a posse."

reply from: yoda

It's not much different. Anytime you're paying people to catch a criminal, it's the same thing, and you know it.
Isn't that the job of law enforcement? Have we suddenly become responsible for catching criminals?

reply from: Skippy

Per the Wichita Eagle website:
Last fall is hardly "years ago."

reply from: galen

wasn't widely reported untill now...
still 24 people is not large, and we still have no facts on why he was shot as yet.
If no leaks occure, i guess we will have to wait untill tomarrow.

reply from: yoda

That's really important to you, isn't it?
Wow..... all that hatred and venom.....
What if it was someone who was mentally ill? Are you going to attack them anyway? How about someone like Andrea Yates, will you attack her too?

reply from: scopia19822

Originally posted by: yodavater
Wow..... all that hatred and venom.....
If it was a proabort killing a prolife protester Spinny would be celebrating.

reply from: Skippy

That was my first guess when I read that the witnesses identified the shooter as someone who had regularly protested at Dr. Tiller's church. After all, several of Troy's "regulars" have a history of violence.
If it is one of his boys, Operation Rescue is finished. No amount of "I do not condone these actions..." will placate people if you're the froot loop that whipped the shooter into a frenzy in the first place.

reply from: yoda

Or at least sniffing and saying something like "they had it coming", or "it was their own fault".

reply from: scopia19822

Where is Faithman? I figured he would be on here with his input.

reply from: yoda

No, Tiller was probably the froot loop who did that, IF it was an antiabortion extremist.

reply from: scopia19822

Or at least sniffing and saying something like "they had it coming", or "it was their own fault".
Tiller did set himself up for this, even choicers has issues with him. Well he is dancing on the end of Satans pitchfork now.

reply from: Faramir

It's not much different. Anytime you're paying people to catch a criminal, it's the same thing, and you know it.
Isn't that the job of law enforcement? Have we suddenly become responsible for catching criminals?
If someone kidnapped my son, and if I had tons of money, better believe I'd offer a reward to help flush out the kidnapper.
Nothing wrong with helping law enforcement.
I see no reason to complain about what that fine prolife organization is doing, unless that reward offer is illegal or unethical.
But again, more than helping to catch a murderer, it helped to separate them from the likes of the goons at Army of God, and that's a good thing, isn't it?

reply from: yoda

"Separate"? Were they together before?
Why must you separate from someone you haven't been together with?
Are you that concerned with false accusations?

reply from: Shenanigans

What the hell is wrong with you?
At first I thought this was a joke.
Then when I realised it wasn't, you know what I said, outloud, "What the hell is wrong with people?" That person murdered a guy at his church. Okay, so I personally detested Tiller, but I was praying for his conversion, not his murder.
He has a wife and kids who will be grieving, those people at that church will be greiving his friends and collegues will be grieving. This is no time for your retarded little slaps at the pro-life movement. The guy who did this is either anti-abortion or sick or after the most attention the media can give.
God have mercy on Tiller, because he's gonna need it.

reply from: scopia19822

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You're not very bright.
Pot meet kettle.

reply from: yoda

I got this from OR a couple hours ago:
"Operation Rescue Denounces The Killing of Abortionist Tiller
May 31st, 2009
Wichita, KS - It has been learned today that George Tiller was shot and killed while entering his church on Sunday morning, May 31.
Operation Rescue releases the following statement attributable to Troy Newman, President:
We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.
"

reply from: scopia19822

"God have mercy on Tiller, because he's gonna need it."
Shen I think that you and I both know that Tiller is in Hell. The man never repented .

reply from: Shenanigans

It could be a gang initiation thing. It could be someone out to get the most attention possible, and short of shooting OBama this would get it. Maybe they shot the wrong person, maybe Tiller wasn't the target. Maybe it was someone who lost a child to Tiller's business. Maybe it was just some maniac trying to get back into the pscyh ward or jail. Maybe it was an anti-abortion person. Maybe it was an Islamic terrorist out to take out an infeldel.
It could be anything. But you can bet your bananas and apples that the media are going to all over this like flies on*****claiming this as "our" fault.

reply from: Shenanigans

Or a shot to the femoral.
However, I detested the guy, but I prayed for his conversion.
What I find more chilling, he didn't just loose his physical life today...

reply from: Shenanigans

I don't like the idea of people burning in hell, even baby killers. I'm just kinda hoping he had some serious mental illness or brain injury which no one but God knew about and that caused him to do what he did.
But yeah, chances are he's in the sulphur.

reply from: scopia19822

Nope he lost his eternal life with Christ as well. The man is eternaly damned. I think he is in a Hell where he will have too live with the carnage of his vocation.

reply from: churchmouse

But you probably thought it was a waste of time for the FEds to investigate Tiller and late term abortions. Right......
He was not a law abiding citizen because he aborted past viability. He was killed by someone probably so devestated over the useless and barbaric killing of the unborn in the womb that he sacrifices his life for the unborn.
I do NOT condone his actions because I do not believe in violence to solve a problem like you do. You condone violence did you know that? You dont think abortion is a violent act, you are pro-abortion?
You can't go around murdering people and he will be brought to justice because he murdered someone.
I will pray for both families because today they are hurting for different reasons.
I am sure in time someone will hop into Tillers position and take over killing late term babies. He was an evil evil man.
Janet is a joke.....she couldn't lead a girl scout troop. She was our govenor......good riddens Janet, don't let the door.....
If she does investigate she probably will cover up the facts....or lie like Pelosi is lying about water boarding.
I want to say this. The pro-life movement is not to blame and anyone who says that they are ....well they are idiots, sorry. This was one mans actions not a group.Considering there are hundreds of thousands of physicians that kill babies the violence is low.
Yuuki said,
Whoever killed him was passionate about the unborn child and obviously could not take it anymore. They sacrificed their life to stop and evil person from killing the innocent. As I said I do not condone it....but I am sure whoever it is......was at an emotional low.
Christians sin Yuuki, you should know that. You say you are a Christian, do you sin? Are you saying your sin is not as bad as either one of those mens sin? God will punish both men in His own way. Tillers actions were not Christian by any means and IMO he probably was not saved. But we can judge actions, not hearts.
God will judge them accordingly I am not worried.
Will any good come from this, I am not sure. I will say one thing......no late term babies will be killed this week.

What attacks? Protestors crossing the lines? I picket and I have never seen any violence. If you are so afraid then wear the vests, quit whinning about it. We might be coming to a place in time where people are getting fed up with people like you who condone violence. You act like we are the violent ones. YOU ARE THE ONES KILLING AND BURNING AND DISMEMBERING THE UNBORN. Give me a break. you escort women into your death chambers and then you all stand around and pat yourselves on the back.
You disgust me to the core. You have blood on your hands and you think its cool. You poor thing. Worried about your job........killing is fun isnt it. If you thought Tiller was a hero......then boy are you warped.
God help you.
"there are people here amongst us that will find it justified. They call for the death of people like me...mothers, wives, daughters....people that feel called to help women in desperate situations...over ideology.'
Pathetic.......you obviously have no morals or ethics whatsoever. Killing for you solves a problem doesnt it? You blame someone for murdering Tiller and you assist murders everyday. You have blood on your hands. LMAO
Honey its way more than ideology. That which you are killing in the womb is alive. What dont you get? Dont you know anything about fetal development? The heart starts beating at around 20 days. Tiller killed way past viability. And you think he was a hero? His job was not done until the skull was bashed in. His job was not done until the bucket was full. And you loved him.
When I think of what you guys do you drive me insane, you mak me ill. God commands me to love you and I am trying. But its hard to love something so full of evil. Its something I have to pray about everyday.
Although I do not condone it I can see where this guy was coming from. He willingly gave his life to save lives. If God gives a free pass to anyone (scriptures do not attest to this) I hope its those that stand up for the unborn. He should however be brought to justice according to our laws.
You would have made a good escort at the Nazi camps 4choice. LOL

reply from: scopia19822

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Remember when God died and left Scopia in charge of value judgements?
Me either...
The man was an evil unreptant murderer. If he had repented and stopped what he was doing maybe he would still be alive. Life is a gift from God, too bad Tiller wasted that gift.

reply from: 4choice4all

justifiable homicide churchmouse?(and yeah, using the word church while pointing to you made me throw up in my mouth a little...I'd watch for lightning next time I entered if I were you)
I don't think it's the prolife movement that is to blame. I've meet too many wonderful and loving prolife individuals to ever lay blame at their feet. It's the sociopaths that hide behind the prolife title...faithman and nancyu come to mind as examples on this board..the ones that refuse to recognize the humanity in others because they are about hate and not love. The REAL prolifers on this board recognize that those on the other side of this position are people too....and for whatever reason we don't see eye to eye and they work to build dialogue in hopes that they may be able to build a bridge and bring others over. And I respect them for that. It's an act of decency and humanity....using love to drive out hate...and light to drive out darkness...as MLK would say.
"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
Godspeed Dr. Tiller

reply from: Faramir

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Remember when God died and left Scopia in charge of value judgements?
Me either...
The man was an evil unreptant murderer. If he had repented and stopped what he was doing maybe he would still be alive. Life is a gift from God, too bad Tiller wasted that gift.
How do you know he was unrepentant?
He was at Church. He was not about to perform an abortion.
You don't know that he didn't repent, and you don't know to what degree he believed he was cooperating with evil.

reply from: scopia19822

"How do you know he was unrepentant?"
He was unapologetic about his profession.
"He was at Church. He was not about to perform an abortion."
He was at church, not everybody who goes to church are believers or good people.
Some people just go to church just to be seen or for social or professional contacts.
"You don't know that he didn't repent, and you don't know to what degree he believed he was cooperating with evil."
He did not think he was doing anything wrong by killing unborn children post viableity.

reply from: scopia19822

I am not shedding tears for the man. I shed tears for those he murdered. I think you need to watch out for lightening before you condemn Churchmouse doing what you do.

reply from: Faramir

I mean, you don't know that he didn't just last night repent and have a change of heart.
And even if he was doing evil things, you can't see his heart and say with certainty he was evil himself.

reply from: QueenJ

Another pro-choicer here who thinks he was a hero.

reply from: scopia19822

Whatever Faramir, go ahead and defend the man. If you do evil things what are you? EVIL.

reply from: QueenJ

RIIGHT.
What does this mean? That I'm lying or that you don't think he was a hero?

reply from: Faramir

Whatever Faramir, go ahead and defend the man. If you do evil things what are you? EVIL.
I didn't defend him, did I?
I said YOU DON'T KNOW if he repented or not, and you don't know if his heart was evil.
No defense at all--just a freindly reminder that you are not God.

reply from: scopia19822

Whatever Faramir, go ahead and defend the man. If you do evil things what are you? EVIL.
I didn't defend him, did I?
I said YOU DON'T KNOW if he repented or not, and you don't know if his heart was evil.
No defense at all--just a freindly reminder that you are not God.
It takes an evil heart to kill people, especially babies, but I leave it in GOds hands his eteranl fate, however I think its logical to conclude that he is eternally seperated from God. I and others did not send him there, he sent himself.

reply from: 4choice4all

"No defense at all--just a freindly reminder that you are not God."
I don't think that reminder can be made too often. Plenty of people strut around here with their homemade crown of thorns.

reply from: scopia19822

I dont think the man was a hero anymore than Josef Mengle was a hero. Mengle after WW2 became an abortionist BTW.

reply from: scopia19822

Tiller sealed his own fate. He wasted the gift of life that God gave him by doing what he did for a living. Are you aware of the Hippocratic Oath? Do no harm, Do not give a deadly drug or peform/procure an abortion. Tiller was not a healer he was killer. Calling him "Dr" was an affront to all of those who got into the feild because they wanted to help people. I think of my uncle James who worked 3 jobs busting his ass t get through medical school so he could help people. He took his oath very seriously, he was a healer and calling Tiller a hero or a healer for me is personally offensive and defiles the memory of my uncle and others before him. I watched that man rabidly detoriate as the cancer ate him up, but at least I know now he is with God. I feel sorry for Tillers family because their loved one most likely is not with God.

reply from: Faramir

My logical conclusion is that I can't say with any certainty that Hitler is in hell, because I don't know if he repented in his final hour, and I don't know to what degree he was culpable for the evil he did, because I am not qualified to see his heart either, let alone the heart of a man who believed he was providing a valid legal service.
I oppose all abortion for any reason, but that doesn't mean I can say anyone who has aborted, performs abortions, or supports abortion rights is evil.
My hope is that he somehow or other made it to Heaven.

reply from: scopia19822

"My hope is that he somehow or other made it to Heaven."
We can hope, but deep down I really doubt it seriouisly.

reply from: QueenJ

Tiller was saving women's LIVES.

reply from: scopia19822

Yeah right, try and convince yourself of that if you want too. Most threats to a womans life in that stage can be solved by early induction of labor or a csection if the child is viable. I was on bed rest that last trimester of my pregnany with my son. At 7 months I damn near lost him because I started hemmoraging. The doctor at the hospital I was taken to wanted my husband to sign the papers to terminate. My attending OB said there was no reason, I would just be put on strict bedrest. Even the AMA has stated there is never a medical need for Tillers services.

reply from: scopia19822

He killed Christian Gilbert a mentally disabled woman.
http://www.standardnewswire.com/news/440163863.html
ealchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/bl05mroe.htm
http://www.justiceforchristin.com/

reply from: QueenJ

Really? Do you have a link that states as such?

reply from: scopia19822

Really? Do you have a link that states as such?
Here is a link to a letter sent to former Pennsylvania Senator Santorum in support of the Partial Birth Abortion ban.
http://www.gargaro.com/ama.html

reply from: Yuuki

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
FreeRepublic is the Mother of All Conservative Websites. You need to check out their abortion/activism page:
http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/abortion/index
If you scroll down, you'll see that the original Tiller story has aleady received over 1000 replies, and the other threads are just smokin'.
For every post that celebrates tiller's death, there are two that realize what damage this incident is going to inflict on the pro-life movement. A lot of people concur that this will set the movement back a decade, and paint a lot of people with a broad, violent, friutloopy brush.
They seem frustrated.
I have to agree; I think this will be very damaging to our cause.

reply from: Yuuki

"However" is right. Regardless of the fact that he was the most visible symbol of baby killing in this land, that is not enough to convict a whole movement OR a single person.
Let's keep our heads and wait until there is AT LEAST a suspect in custody before we go tearing our clothes and piling ashes on our heads. NO ONE acts on behalf of the entire prolife movement, each of us is an individual and responsible for our own actions.
As of the time when you posted this, a suspect was already in custody.

reply from: Shenanigans

Whatever Faramir, go ahead and defend the man. If you do evil things what are you? EVIL.
I didn't defend him, did I?
I said YOU DON'T KNOW if he repented or not, and you don't know if his heart was evil.
No defense at all--just a freindly reminder that you are not God.
Yeah, he could have been walking out of his church when he was suddenly hit with the tonne of bricks that was the realisation that he had been killing human children.
Of course, you'd think a realisation like that would have the man sobbing on the floor.
But only God knows what was the last thought that passed through that man's mind and what was in his soul.

reply from: QueenJ

I'm going to need a more reliable link than that one.

reply from: Faramir

It happened to people who performed thousands of abortions--one who went on to become a Catholic. Why couldn't the same thing have happened? We'll never know that it didn't. And we'll never know that he might have had a change of heart later.
Amen.

reply from: Shenanigans

Anyone else remember back a few years when Tiller's PR woman said the majority of late term abortions are done on healthy women with healthy foetuses? It was a big slip of the tongue but it got them in so much heat.

reply from: churchmouse

I would think at this very moment Tiller is trying to convince God that he really didn't mean it.
What don't you get.......I said the murderer should be brought to justice according to our laws. Read my post.
I do not condone violence YOU DO. YOU ESCORT THEM IN FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CONDONES VIOLENCE NOT ME. YOU THINK DISMEMBERING THE UNBORN IS JUSTIFIED. YOU ALSO WILL ANSWER TO GOD.
And I went to church today and the building is still standing for your information.
They have passion for the unborn. Passion my dear that you will never be able to comprehend because your heart is hardened and you cant see the difference. You cant tell the difference between right and wrong in this case. You condone the killing. They are not extreme. They dont hate.......they love the unborn and are blunt about what is going on. You must feel bad because their words convict you and somewhere underneath you know what your actions are doing. YOU hate the unborn because you help women kill for whatever reasons they want. And you are proud of it. Is it no wonder we cant stomach what you do?
You know.......you are a person, someone who obviously has lost their way because anyone that could be proud of escorting someone in to kill.....is pathetic in my book. I am going to add you to my prayers because God can change your heart. With Him anything is possible. But if you can't see that what you are doing is evil.....then you are in for Gods discipline.
Love enough? Anybody can say they love. Did Tiller love? He was in church today and had he lived....tomorrow he would have cut up innocents in the womb. You call that love? You call what you do for women love?
You can love someone and hate what they do. And as a Christian I am going to call you on it especially if you claim you are a Christian. I am sure Christ was sickened by those sinners he came in contact with. He hates sin, all sin. And if we are believers we should hate sin and evil too.
It is sad that you do not see this. I am going to pray for you.
I do not know Tillers heart but we all saw his fruits and they were ungodly whether he was at church or not. Were they righteous? Did He glorify God in all his actions? No.
Scopia is right, Tiller was unapologetic about his profession, just like you are.
I am not shedding tears for him either scopia. I do have a sense of sadness that when things get so bad that people take matters into their own hands and seek out what they see is justice. We have to wait on the Lord because His justice is perfect. Whether or not Tiller got justice in this life is irrelevant, his eternity would have been decided by God.
Violence is no answer.
And you make a good point he could have had a change of heart today before he was killed. But in any case its to late....he cant change his mind now. If he was not saved, he will spend eternity in hell according to Christs own Words. He will have to answer for EVERY SINGLE ABORTION HE DID.
And so will the escorts that take the women in to kill their babies. They will account for every single child they helped kill.

reply from: Shenanigans

I for one was praying for Tiller to be the next Nathanson, not a damn martyr for the pro-abort cause.

reply from: scopia19822

I'm going to need a more reliable link than that one.
You asked for a link I gave it too you. If it does not meet your standards tough. The fact is the AMA backed the PBA ban bill because they said it was not a medically nessecary procedure.

reply from: QueenJ

I'm going to need a more reliable link than that one.
You asked for a link I gave it too you. If it does not meet your standards tough. The fact is the AMA backed the PBA ban bill because they said it was not a medically nessecary procedure.

reply from: 4choice4all

I feel I am doing God's will when I escort. It is an act of love, compassion, sacrifice.....love one another, serve one another, love others as I have loved you. Tis I that will pray for you and those of your ilk.

reply from: scopia19822

You really think Jesus would condone your actions? You are an accomplice to murder, but if that is what it takes for you to feel good about yourself and sleep at night ok. I think if the clinic I went too had escorts, you would have gladly helped my ex drag me in if I tried to get away. I wonder how many child molesters and woman abusers you have aided and abetted over the years.

reply from: 4choice4all

Yes, I do feel my actions are condoned in the eyes of God. Stop projecting your guilt.

reply from: galen

i would LOVE to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation( 4choice and God)

reply from: scopia19822

So did the Nazis. So did the KKK. I am not projecting MY guilt. Dont confuse guilt with grief.

reply from: scopia19822

That would be most certainly interesting.

reply from: 4choice4all

Right now those conversations are terribly one sided,lol. If I ever start to hear responses...I let you know what the little voice says.

reply from: Shenanigans

I think you need to wake up, 4choice, you're not walking little old ladies across a busy motorway to see the incontienance nurse, you're walking women into a building where their unborn children will be KILLED, you know, have their little arms and legs ripped off, their spines snapped, their guts pulled out, their skulls crushed, and their tiny beating hearts stopped.
You take those women in, but will you ever see them again? Unlikely.
The amount of women I've met in my line of work who regret their abortion is staggering. The grief and pain you see in their eyes when they speak of the child they had killed is heart wrenching. When you look through their notes and lo and behold a big black bolded "DEPRESSION" diagnosis AFTER they've aborted pops up, it starts to make you wonder.
You walk those women into a place that kills their children and maims their soul. You don't get to see them months, even years later when the full weight of what they've done has crushed them completely.
You get to wash your hands very easily of their blood.
I don't even work in maternity/gynae/pysch and I have seen enough weeping women to know abortion is killing a child.
Hell, even the people I know who have worked in the abortion clinics, students, nurses, doctors, and have left, they say the same thing. Its murder.
And you're apart of that.
Good luck to you on your day of judgement when you have to explain to a being with more intelligence and understanding than every human who's ever existed that you think your actions are "loving" and "compassionate".

reply from: galen

so for all you know its your ego telling you what is right... not God.

reply from: scopia19822

Some people think they are God. Maybe that is the case here.

reply from: Shenanigans

That would be most certainly interesting.
I'd like to see her explain her actions.
But I wouldn't want to be around for His response.

reply from: scopia19822

"Good luck to you on your day of judgement when you have to explain to a being with more intelligence and understanding than every human who's ever existed that you think your actions are "loving" and "compassionate"."
I really wish that somewhere a foresnic psyc would do a study on the pysc of those who work for or with the abortion industry. I think you will a high rate of psycopathy and sociopathy.

reply from: galen

a good video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDLN0PowN1Y

reply from: 4choice4all

I have confidence in my discernment process. I felt the hand of God present when I made the decision to start escorting and I feel Her presence often when I escort. But thank you for your concern.

reply from: scopia19822

OMG gag, disgusting. Did you just refer to God in the feminine?

reply from: galen

another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sBATtEB5yI&feature=related

reply from: 4choice4all

My God is neither male or female...merely, Creator. I use them interchangeably. Why? Do you think God has a penis?

reply from: scopia19822

We have God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirti. I have never heard him referred to as GOd the Mother.

reply from: scopia19822

"You know about the Shekinah?"
I have heard the term

reply from: Progo35

Pro life individuals must be consistently pro life. We cannot condone shooting abortionists and screaming cruel things at women who are entering clinics. We should oppose murder, the death penalty, war, and euthanasia. We have to work together for a just world where everyone, born and unborn, lives in peace.

reply from: Yuuki

I'm with 4choice here. I have a non-gendered view of God, and the original language of the Old Testament does not give God a gender. They used gender-neutral pronouns, which don't exist in english. I feel the "father" title was brought on by the translators. Who were men.

reply from: Yuuki

Welcome, and good post. I expected traffic here would increase because of this event.

reply from: Faramir

Then why are there "deathscorts"?
Who caused the need for them?
And are they responsible for the choice the woman has already made and who wants to walk to the clinic unmolested?

reply from: CDC700

I feel bad for Tiller's family. I'd love to say how tragic this was and that I would never condone this, but I honestly can't say that. So I'll break the PC world and state that I am glad he's dead. At least he was shot, not ripped to shreds and sucked away.

reply from: Faramir

Maybe two more will replace him.
And maybe new laws will be passed that keep legitimate prolifers further from women who they might counsel and help prevent from aborting.
This is only a short-term "victory" if you want to call it that. It will do more harm in the long run.

reply from: CDC700

The ironic thing is, the "doctor" was killed by his own kind, a pro-choicer! Chances are, if he hadn't been murdering babies for a living, he would probably still be alive, or at least not standing before God trying to justify himself.....

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

A 51 year old Kansas man, Scott Roeder, was taken into custody as a suspect. Does anyone know anything about him or his motivations?
Certainly, this is a good day for children.
The government should have executed Tiller long ago. The government's delinquency to do so makes it wicked. Unfortunately, a man may have taken matters into his own hands when the government failed to exercise justice. No man has the right to execute judgment, that right and authority belong to government only.
Like Paul Hill, Scott Roeder may have felt he was compelled to save the babies. The moms and dads want the kids dead, so what ya gonna do?
Government has to outlaw baby-killing. They are the real authorities. Scott Roeder was enaging in anarachy, a crime. The US crime is no less; they did not deal with baby-killing.
Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Kansas Church, Suspect in Custody
Sunday, May 31, 2009
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AP
Jan. 19, 2002: Dr. George Tiller speaks to a small group in a tent during a rally at Tiller's clinic in Wichita, Kan.
Jan. 19, 2002: Dr. George Tiller speaks to a small group in a tent during a rally at Tiller's clinic in Wichita, Kan.
WICHITA, Kan. - Dr. George Tiller, who remained one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.
The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was arrested some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.
Long a focus of national anti-abortion groups, including a summer-long protest in 1991, Tiller was shot in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, Stolz said. Tiller's attorney, Dan Monnat, said Tiller's wife, Jeanne, was in the choir at the time.
Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson said Scott Roeder was the man whose car was stopped on Interstate 35 on Sunday, about three hours after the shooting of George Tiller.
Earlier in the day, Wichita police said the suspect was a 51-year-old man from Merriam, Kan., but they refused to identify him by name.
Roeder has not been charged in the slaying, but he was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.
Click here for photos.
The slaying of the 67-year-old doctor is "an unspeakable tragedy," his widow, four children and 10 grandchildren said in statement. "This is particularly heart-wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace."
The family said its loss "is also a loss for the city of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality health care despite frequent threats and violence."
Tiller's Women's Health Care Services clinic is one of just three in the nation where abortions are performed after the 21st week of pregnancy. The clinic was heavily fortified and Tiller often traveled with a bodyguard, but Stolz said there was no indication of security at the church Sunday.
Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri said it was working with law enforcement to secure its facilities Sunday even after the suspect was in custody.
Related StoriesLate-Term Abortion Provider on Trial for Allegedly Aborting Fetuses Illegally
'The Factor' Comes Face-to-Face With Kansas Abortion Doctor, George Tiller
A protester shot Tiller in both arms in 1993, and his clinic was bombed in 1985. More recently, Monnat said Tiller had asked federal prosecutors to step up investigations of vandalism and other threats against the clinic out of fear that the incidents were increasing and that Tiller's safety was in jeopardy. Stolz, however, said police knew of no threats connected to the shooting.
In early May, Tiller had asked the FBI to investigate vandalism at his clinic, including cut wires to surveillance cameras and damage to the roof that sent rainwater pouring into the building.
Anti-abortion groups denounced the shooting and stressed that they support only nonviolent protest. The movement's leaders fear the killing could create a backlash just as they are scrutinizing U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor, whose views on abortion rights are not publicly known.
"We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down," Troy Newman, Operation Rescue's president, said in a statement. "Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning."
In 1991, the Summer of Mercy protests organized by Operation Rescue drew thousands of anti-abortion activists to this city for demonstrations marked by civil disobedience and mass arrests.
Tiller began providing abortion services in 1973. He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.
Nancy Keenan, president of abortion-rights group NARAL Pro-Choice America, issued a statement praising Tiller's commitment.
"Dr. Tiller's murder will send a chill down the spines of the brave and courageous providers and other professionals who are part of reproductive-health centers that serve women across this country. We want them to know that they have our support as they move forward in providing these essential services in the aftermath of the shocking news from Wichita," Keenan said.
After the 1991 protests, Tiller kept mostly to his heavily guarded clinic, although in 1997 he opened it to three tours by state lawmakers and the media.
The clinic is fortified with bulletproof glass, and Tiller hired a private security team to protect the facility. Once outside the clinic, Tiller was routinely accompanied by a bodyguard.
At a recent trial, he told jurors that he and his family have suffered years of harassment and threats and that he knew he was a target of anti-abortion protesters.
Federal marshals protected Tiller during the 1991 Summer of Mercy protests, and he was protected again between 1994 and 1998 after another abortion provider was assassinated and federal authorities reported finding Tiller's name on an assassination list.
Tiller remained prominent in the news, in part because of an investigation begun by former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline, an abortion opponent.
Prosecutors had alleged that Tiller had gotten second opinions from a doctor who was essentially an employee of his, not independent as state law requires. A jury in March acquitted Tiller of all 19 misdemeanor counts.
"I am stunned by this lawless and violent act, which must be condemned and should be met with the full force of law," Kline said in a written statement. "We join in lifting prayer that God's grace and presence rest with Dr. Tiller's family and friends."
Abortion opponents also questioned then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' ties to Tiller before the Senate confirmed her this year as U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary. Tiller donated thousands of dollars to Sebelius over the years.
Click here for more on this story from MyFOXKC.com.
See Next Story in U.S.

reply from: sheri

I am surprised the prochoicers on this thread are acting so anti choice! I thought they were all about a person being free to end a life when ever they felt it was best.

reply from: Banned Member

George Tiller killed babies for a living. He liked his job.
Need anyone say more?

reply from: Faramir

Yes.
All of us who are prolifers should condemn what happened today.

reply from: Banned Member

People are killed all over America every day. Innocent American people are killed in senseless acts of violence and murder every day in America. Where is the moral indignation from the pro-choice community every day when these things happen? Where is their righteous anger and sense of injustice? Why are they silent? Women are killed and seriously injured every day at the hands of violent offenders. Why are the people who say that they stand for women's rights not howling with indignation for justice for these innocent women? Where is their anger and sense of injustice? Why are they silent? The abortion rights community will mourn more for George Tiller than for a 1000 women killed in senseless violent acts, because abortion is their priority and obsession, not the rights or welfare of women.

reply from: Faramir

We can condemn this act of violence that was done in the name of the prolife cause and which harms the prolife cause, and also condemn what Tiller did.
There are some prochoicers as gleeful about this as those who excuse violence. What does that tell you?

reply from: 4given

David Bereit, National Director of 40 Days for Life,
issued the following statement about the slaying of
George Tiller at a Wichita, Kansas church:
"As a nationwide organization dedicated to peaceful
and prayerful solutions to the crisis of abortion,
40 Days for Life is shocked and dismayed by the
shooting death of Kansas abortion provider George
Tiller. Such violence against a fellow human being
is never justified, and 40 Days for Life condemns
this senseless act. We encourage people of faith to
join in prayer for all those affected by this
unconscionable action."
David Bereit
National Director
40 Days for Life

reply from: churchmouse

Jesus was God in the flesh. Was sex was Christ? Christ was male Yuuki. Scripture contains almost 170 references to God as the "Father." By necessity, one cannot be a father unless he is male. In both the Old and New Testaments, masculine pronouns are used over and over again in reference to God. In the Gospels alone, Christ uses the term "Father" in direct reference to God nearly 160 times. Christ's statement in John 10:30..... He says here, "I and [my] Father are one." Obviously Jesus Christ came in the form of a human man to die on the cross as payment for the sins of the world, and like God the Father, was revealed to mankind in a male form. Scripture records numerous other instances where Christ utilized masculine nouns and pronouns in reference to God.
The authors of the Bible were masculine as were the disciples. The people of the greatest authority were male.
Everlasting Father.......King of Kings.......Father is male as is a King.
He is no martyr for anyone with a brain. He was an evil man. And you know what they say, what goes around comes around.
You have a warped view of God. You are working for Satan in an act of violence. Satan hates children and you obviously do too. The women you are walking in are carry Gods children. You think you are glorifying God by helping them die?
Ministering is a service to God. But not escorting someone in to kill another human being. A servant spirit is one who expresses submission or debt to another. We praise God by our actions. We praise God with worship and singing......but not killing. Why don't you feed the needy and hungry......and get out of the killing business. Or do you just like it to much? Like scopia says, you are an accomplice to murder.
Could you show me scripture where your actions God would justify? What part of the Ten Commandments dont you get?
The hand was Satan. He has you in HIS grasp.

reply from: 4choice4all

I'll pray that all that hate leaves you churchmouse. And that clarity comes to you.

reply from: Faramir

We use these terms to help get a handle on God, but God is neither male nor female.
He's infinite and is pure spirt, and transcends such limitations.
He is a "he" in relation to his creation, but in his perfection would have all the atributes of any aspect of creation, so both male and female are in his image.

reply from: Bgraphics

I sure hope he prayed for all those that he killed while in church that mourning.
I pray that god have mercy on his soul. And that all them babies let his soul rest.
I do not condone the killing of this man. I think there is other ways of handling things. And hope he is brought to justice for his murder as well.

reply from: CDC700

Really? I hope he burns in hell! That's where he belongs. Another false Christian, hanging out in a church to somehow make his baby killing habits acceptable. Why is everyone assuming the killer is trying to represent any pro life or pro death movement. he probably had just had enough of the murdering and ended his deadly practice. The "doctor" knew he deserved it, or why else would he have bodyguards? There is no peaceful solution to murder.....

reply from: Shenanigans

I have.
But the person referring to God as a she was a recognised as a heretic by the church.

reply from: Shenanigans

Maybe two more will replace him.
And maybe new laws will be passed that keep legitimate prolifers further from women who they might counsel and help prevent from aborting.
This is only a short-term "victory" if you want to call it that. It will do more harm in the long run.
I recall reading once after an abortionist was shot or a clinic exploded, other clinics in the region started offering cheaper services to the woman who had appointments at the damaged clinic.
I hope like hell people dont grow a murderous set of balls and start up where Tiller was knocked off.

reply from: CDC700

Statement? Or one man's way to stop a murderer? It doesn't appear he was trying to get caught or take responsibility for the killing. You know, the Bible does take a pretty strong stand against crimes committed on children. The world IS a better place without the likes of Tiller. Funny how so many are making Tiller out to be the victim. Maybe there is something to this Karma thing?

reply from: faithman

Statement? Or one man's way to stop a murderer? It doesn't appear he was trying to get caught or take responsibility for the killing. You know, the Bible does take a pretty strong stand against crimes committed on children. The world IS a better place without the likes of Tiller. Funny how so many are making Tiller out to be the victim. Maybe there is something to this Karma thing?
If there really is a hell, Mr. Tiller now resides there. I morn for his lost soul. But I would be a liar if I said that I wasn't glad that he no longer slaughters the innocent.

reply from: Bgraphics

We use these terms to help get a handle on God, but God is neither male nor female.
He's infinite and is pure spirt, and transcends such limitations.
He is a "he" in relation to his creation, but in his perfection would have all the atributes of any aspect of creation, so both male and female are in his image.
I beleave it states in Gen. that man was created in his like ness. I may be wrong though.

reply from: sk1bianca

well... i'm not surprised...
people tried to stop him from killing babies in many ways. nothing worked. somebody snapped and put an end to it.

reply from: ProInformed

Spinfibby is about as sad about Tiller being murdered as she/it is about victims of fatal child abuse - she/it is excited BRCAUSE sheit can exploit this death to further defend 'abortion rights' and 'free sex'. BUT she/it doesn't even pretend concern for the babies and women killed by abortion BECAUSE those deaths don't help defend the abortion industry.

reply from: scopia19822

Hey Proinfomred Spinfibby says that we are liars and what happned to us didnt happen.

reply from: ProInformed

Yea, some of that 'pro-woman' sentiment she/it supposedly has, eh?
It's been pretty obvoisu for some time that spinfibby's purpose for posting in this forum is to insult and attack any post-aborted women who dare to try to warn other women about the abortion industries lies and dangers.

reply from: scopia19822

Yea, some of that 'pro-woman' sentiment she/it supposedly has, eh?
It's been pretty obvoisu for some time that spinfibby's purpose for posting in this forum is to insult and attack any post-aborted women who dare to try to warn other women about the abortion industries lies and dangers.
Another troll who needs to go and crawl back under thier bridge. It seems since the Obamanation got into the White House we have seen a huge influx of proabort trolls. I am finding myself having to use the iggy button.

reply from: yoda

I don't think any of that is true. But that never stopped you before, did it?

reply from: faithman

I don't think any of that is true. But that never stopped you before, did it?
OR has already said that the boy they have in custody was never a "member" of OR. He has posted on their open blog, as have many pro aborts. It would be like spinfibby being called a "member" of Life Dynamics because the scum bag posts on this forum.

reply from: yoda

Oh yeah, we can all take the blame for anything spinfibby does, right?
Just like all abolitionists took the blame for John Brown's actions in Kansas and Harper's Ferry. Oh wait, they didn't, did they?

reply from: churchmouse

And I pray God disciplines you appropriately for the wrongs you are committing today so that you can see the evil you are doing to HIS creation. I pray you stop helping women kill.
It is sad that you think the act of escorting a woman in to kill her living human baby is admirable and that it honors God. I believe in Gods wrath and I pray that people like you feel it directly until you have a change of heart.
That is not for us to decide because all we have are his actions. I believe his fruits were evil, that much is obvious. I do agree with you on false Christian. Sitting in church does not make you a Christian. The lifestyle and someones works should reflect their faith in Christ. And I do not believe anyone that could condone abortion, could perform abortions like Tiller did could have a pure faith in Christ. Either way God will judge him. I would guess he will for all eternity regret his actions.
I do think it is absolutely terrible that he was killed in a church where other people were worshipping. I pray for them, it must have been horrible.
Nutty? What acts of violence has Operation Rescue done? Could you provide a list to back up your claim? I am so sick of people like you who think that those that really value life are nutty. We do not condone violence, you on the pro-abort side do. You have a warped sense of the value of life. You condone acts of violence against helpless living human beings. Tiller is your hero.......how sick is that.
No honey, your views are just warped.
I agree with you CDC700 in that the world is a better place without Tiller. And it would also be better place without those who think he is a hero for all the thousands he has inhumanely murdered.
Can you just imagine if people got so sick of this innocent bloodshed that every pro-lifer in the country stormed the abortion clinics peacefully and took matters into their own hands. Look what happened with slavery. People got sick of it and took matters into their own hands. Maybe it will come to that, I do not know.
I believe there is a hell, a literal place where he will suffer forever. I too believe Tiller is there based on his occupation and what scripture says. We will never know and personally I do not care. It's over and we do not have to pray for him.
We need to pray for his family... that if they had views that mirrored his, that God change their hearts. Maybe this is a sense of relief for them. Maybe his wife underneath did not agree with what he did. We do not know the state of his household. What I do know is that he will never dismember another unborn. That I thank God for.

reply from: Progo35

Murdering Tiller does not help unborn children. It will be even harder now to do that, because Tiller has been made into a martyr for his cause, and all pro lifers will be stereotyped as promoting violence. Also, Tiller will never have the opportunity to repent now. There are nonviolent, loving ways to help unborn children by challenging abortionists, particularly those who do late term abortions. For instance, Tiller was being investigated by his local medical board. That was another way to stop him, but this individual would not let that process work.

reply from: Yuuki

If God made man AND woman in "his" image, then how come woman is female? Wouldn't they both be men if they were both made in the image of a male God? I'm not talking about Adam and Eve; most Biblical historians believe that they were created separately from the rest of the human race.

reply from: Banned Member

Doesn't anyone else think that it's funny that this happened a week or to after Pres. Obama asked for more civility from the masses in this debate. I think this act was done as much to slap Obama in the face as it was done to take out Tiller.

reply from: 4choice4all

Which is why we need to call it what it is...the act of a domestic terrorist. A very well known Catholic university invites a prochoice president to speak and no one backs down from that decision and they find common ground in calling for dialogue and finding a middle ground.....and boom, kill a doctor. Instill fear...try to increase the divide....blow up the bridge that was being built.

reply from: Bgraphics

Gen. 1:27
So God created man in his "own" image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.
Worded just as that. Ref. The King James Study Bible. Which is the english version of the Hebrew bible.
Regardless of him being male or female. Some may argue him being both. It doesn't matter. It is clear that God hates those who shed innocent blood. there is scripture that is very specific on that too.

reply from: 4choice4all

Ah yes...and don't forget...the bible explicitly states that Dr. Tiller is Satan's minion...scripture to support that is as specific as scripture that says "God opposes abortion".

reply from: faithman

Scott Roeder :::::::
Sedgwick County Jail ::::::::
141 West Elm :::::::::
Wichita KS 67203 ::::::

reply from: CDC700

I would hardly call this an act of terrorism, do you even know what terrorism is? Performing abortions would fall closer under the definition terrorism. This was a murder/execution. Why has this country become so damn soft? Now we persecute our Soldiers for killing the enemy, try to TALK with a religion that practices TRUE terrorism Our morales in general have fallen below the trash heap due to this popular culture of "if it goes against the grain it's cool". The world is a tough place, and having good values and standards makes it tougher. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone when a baby killer gets what he deserved. All the "talks" and "peaceful" solutions just don't cut it. Was it murder? By definition, yes it was. I think of it more as a justifiable homicide.

reply from: faithman

I would hardly call this an act of terrorism, do you even know what terrorism is? Performing abortions would fall closer under the definition terrorism. This was a murder/execution. Why has this country become so damn soft? Now we persecute our Soldiers for killing the enemy, try to TALK with a religion that practices TRUE terrorism Our morales in general have fallen below the trash heap due to this popular culture of "if it goes against the grain it's cool". The world is a tough place, and having good values and standards makes it tougher. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone when a baby killer gets what he deserved. All the "talks" and "peaceful" solutions just don't cut it. Was it murder? By definition, yes it was. I think of it more as a justifiable homicide.
I don't even think it makes the def. Murder is the shedding of innocent blood. Tiller killer was innocent? Genesis 9:6

reply from: 4choice4all

definitely terrorism...the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious/ systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion

reply from: faithman

I think you are in error again. He simply stopped one man from sucking the brains out of children. What is it with you punks on the left? Always sucking something?

reply from: nancyu

It helps the babies he would have killed today, and the day after that, and the day after that....
Never had the opportunity to repent!? Are you crazy? How much more opportunity did he need? How much opportunity to repent would you give the guy who's running through your house killing your children one by one?
All pro lifers will be stereotyped as promoting violence? And that wasn't so before? Are you really worried about what the spinwiddy's of the world think of you? If so there's an easier way -- just be pro choice.

reply from: CDC700

It helps the babies he would have killed today, and the day after that, and the day after that....
.
I guess someone needed to point out the obvious!

reply from: 4choice4all

An act like this gives weight to the acts of OR..you know, when the stalk clinic workers. Now it says...I may not leave it at stalking you, following you to dinner, rooting through your trash, protesting you spouses job...once I know where to find you, I might have other plans. Intimidation...fear..the root of terrorism.

reply from: Faramir

He never went into people's homes to do that.
People brought their pregancies and children TO him.
Dr Nathansan killed thousands before he saw the light and became prolife and then a Christian.
Would you rather he had been gunned down too?

reply from: faithman

He never went into people's homes to do that.
People brought their pregancies and children TO him.
Dr Nathansan killed thousands before he saw the light and became prolife and then a Christian.
Would you rather he had been gunned down too?
I am glad the boy stopped, but if he had been "gunned down" before he killed thousands, those thousands would still be alive. But phonies like you could care less about that, huh?

reply from: sheri

Why do you think he shot him in church?

reply from: nancyu

It helps the babies he would have killed today, and the day after that, and the day after that....
.
I guess someone needed to point out the obvious!
Yup, the blind, deaf and dumb need a little help with that sometimes. And some of them need alot of help with that.

reply from: faithman

It helps the babies he would have killed today, and the day after that, and the day after that....
.
I guess someone needed to point out the obvious!
Yup, the blind, deaf and dumb need a little help with that sometimes. And some of them need alot of help with that.
I would get them a dog, but the SOB's would probly have them aborted.

reply from: Faramir

He never went into people's homes to do that.
People brought their pregancies and children TO him.
Dr Nathansan killed thousands before he saw the light and became prolife and then a Christian.
Would you rather he had been gunned down too?
I am glad the boy stopped, but if he had been "gunned down" before he killed thousands, those thousands would still be alive. But phonies like you could care less about that, huh?
I don't think they'd be alive. I think the women would have gone to another abortionist.

reply from: sheri

Something to think about, if Tiller had not been shot, several preborn babies would be thrashing in pain right now, their skin would be burning off them because of the saline, that is not happening because Tiller was unable to inject it.
I feel as sad about tillers demise as i would if i had heard about a slave trader getting his comeuppence.

reply from: CDC700

Yes, actually a gunshot was rather humane, he was more deserving of a nice bath in HCL, followed by a trip to a shredder.

reply from: faithman

As I have already said: I morn his lost soul, but I rejoice for the womb children, that one of their deadly enemies can no longer hurt them. If the Kansas Government wasn't SSSSSOOOOOO corupted by Tillers money, this could have been avoided. But as the founders have said, if a government becomes despotic, the people have the right, and duty to rebel against it.

reply from: faithman

You don't have to answere for anything.

reply from: CDC700

I really find it hard to believe everyone condemns this act. Maybe in public, but in the back of everyone's mind??? I really don't honestly believe that anyone in their right mind TRULY believes killing babies is okay. If they do, they probably have no soul....

reply from: faithman

I guess I am a nobody. I can not in good conscience condemn the kind of action that is legal to defend the born person. Tiller the killer was given decades to stop. He refused, so he was made to stop. The boy will never suck the brains out of another child's skull. I morn for his lost soul, but rejoice for the womb children who have one less deadly enemy.

reply from: CDC700

I guess I am a nobody. I can not in good conscience condemn the kind of action that is legal to defend the born person. Tiller the killer was given decades to stop. He refused, so he was made to stop. The boy will never suck the brains out of another child's skull. I morn for his lost soul, but rejoice for the womb children who have one less deadly enemy.
I think I wrote that wrong, by "this act" I am referring to shooting the baby murderer.

reply from: churchmouse

"Doesn't anyone else think that it's funny that this happened a week or to after Pres. Obama asked for more civility from the masses in this debate. I think this act was done as much to slap Obama in the face as it was done to take out Tiller."
No I dont. Obama has been pro-abortion his entire life. He asks for things that just cant be. There is no middle road here. Abortion is murder and should be called as such.
Obama cant even say the word murder, he cant give the unborn personhood.....he is a phony and an evil man.
People that recognize this fact dont pay attention to him. He has no right whatsoever to ask us to do anything, because HE DOES NOTHING.
Comestic terrorism my arse. A pro-lifer killed a doctor who has killed thousands of unborn children. He wanted the killing stopped.
Obama has nothing to do with this.
THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND ON THIS.....4choice4all
I have a new hero.......LOL CDC700 I love this post.
Right on.......way to go.
Good question.
Clinic workers dont get stalked. Give proof of this. Show some links to violent acts that have taken place. Its the other way around honey. Its the workers that verbal abuse picketers.
If you think for one minute that I will stop standing out in front of abortion clinics.....opposing people like you, getting in fron of your face, you have another thing coming. You dont scare me, you make me want to do it all the more.
"Why do you think he shot him in church?'
He snapped and was sick of the bloodshed at his clinics. He was a hypocrit and he not only sent a message to Tiller but those that tolerated his sin. Obviously no one at that church had the guts to call him out on his UNGODLY ACTS.
Had they ministered to him like Christ commands, had they not minimized what he was doing, things might have been different. Obviously it was a pro-choice church. Had he come to my church, we would have spoken the truth but with love.
My pastor stands up and calls abortion murder and those that do it murderers. I doubt Tiller would have stayed. He found a church that did not stand on the Word.
Faithman why do you mourn his lost soul? He had a chance. It wasnt the Kansas goverments fault it was his churches.
You are wrong...some see him as their hero like 4choice4all. She loves him and mourns his life.

reply from: CDC700

Churchmouse,
I found a hero in this story as well........... And I don't want to get started on obama, the beginning of the USSA

reply from: 4choice4all

OR openly talks of their "name and shame" program. I've seen it at my own clinic. I don't put the honor student stickers on my car so my children's schools can't be identified. They find out where you live, work, and frequent and commence to harassment. They protested the retirement party of the wife of an escort. They protested at the place of employment of a child of a worker. And now they have something to hang over the heads of those they stalk...I might "snap" and kill you one day.....because they are domestic terrorists...and should be treated as such.

reply from: Skippy

All of you, do try not to whine too much when ever-tougher legislation and policies to combat domestic terrorism are implemented. After all, you brought it on yourselves.

reply from: CDC700

Funny how that doesn't happen at Hospitals, or to REAL Nurses and Doctors eh? Maybe because they are in the CARE industry and not the KILL industry.

reply from: jujujellybean

that is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Thats like someone saying about a serial killer, "thats everything we need to know about the human race." Because you know I was really planning on killing somebody recently....

reply from: Yuuki

Yeah no. Saline abortion is not used these days. You have no idea what techniques Tiller used, do you? At least educate yourself before speaking.
Yes, several babies are alive today that would have been dead. That does not justify murder.
And no, the women scheduled to abort with Tiller really can't go much of anywhere else. Almost no one performs these procedures. IF some of the women who were going to his clinic actually need abortions to save their lives, they will be able to receive those services in a normal hospital.

reply from: Yuuki

that is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Thats like someone saying about a serial killer, "thats everything we need to know about the human race." Because you know I was really planning on killing somebody recently....
READ some of the horrid posts on this forum!! I can't blame choicers for looking at us like we're lunatics!!

reply from: 4choice4all

No...because the religious nuts and prodeath antichoice crowd have found a way to subsidize their insanity....call themselves a "rescue" group or a "sidewalk" counselor...lie and distort to raise money. It's a cash cow.....and you have to "be seen" in order to market what you are selling....zealotry.

reply from: HarryBalzich

I'm sure God would give you a good back hand for that type of thinking.

reply from: HarryBalzich

plenty of pretty judgemental people here. People that think they know what God wants. Maybe if God wanted abortion to be illegal.....he'd see to it. Maybe God made abortion legal so that he could be the judge. Kind of like free will. Maybe you are all just getting in God's way.

reply from: sander

tiller is dead, he was evil to the core, there is no doubt about that.
Anyone who could kill a viable, helpless baby and take the 5,000 dollar blood money for it is just a modern day hitler/mengele and any other vile murderer you can imagine.
I won't be a hypocrite and say I mourn his passing. God hated what he did and was given many years to repent, he chose not to. Just becuase he found a church who would agree with abortion rights, did not make him a Christian.
He found a place to satisfy his "itching ears" and now he has only begun to pay the price for every baby he killed, not to mention the women who have died at his evil hands. He will never be able to justify to God his actions, he will never satisfy the debt he owes since he rejected the price Jesus paid.
Do I agree with what the shooter did? NO a thousand times NO!
Now the left will use this as a billy club for years to come....what a stupid man to have done this.
He was only thinking of himself, as far as I'm concerned. He satisfied a deep seated frustration and acted selfishly.
I can't condemn his actions enough.
Only God has the right to vengeance

reply from: sander

Those who belong to God better KNOW what God wants.
He requires us to know His Ways and will.
To even think God doesn't want "abortion illegal", only speaks of your own ignorance.
And we better know how to judge here and now since He also requires us to do just that if we're to "judge angels" one day.

reply from: sheri

Cheerio, what kind of abortions do you think Tiller performed? Do you believe he had a humane way to go about it?

reply from: Yuuki

He performed legal abortions, which with the partial birth abortion ban, meant he wasn't birthing babies up to their necks and sucking out their brains. What they normally do to my knowledge is inject the child's heart with a poison that stops it, and then several hours later deliver the dead child.

reply from: JRH

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.

reply from: Shenanigans

I wonder if people realise the point God was making when He said we're made in His image wasn't that we're made to physcially look like Him, but rather, we are in His spiritual image - meaning, we, like God, have an immortal soul.

reply from: JRH

I'm pro choice, but this is a really bad post. Why do we prevent the murder of a 5 year old child? Ideology. The same reasoning that you would use to make laws which prevent children from being murdered by parents who did not wish to care for them is employed by pro lifers. They see the fetus as a child.

reply from: Shenanigans

If women "needed" abortions to save their lives they'd already be in hospitals, they wouldn't be pissing about with a procedure that takes a few days at some clinic.

reply from: Shenanigans

So how do you know that? Did you sneak into the skips behind his clinic and check the backs of those babies' heads for hole marks? Did he have to give up all his scissors?
Its a very hard thing to police.
Chances are, poisoning the child before its birth is still damn twisted and doesn't make abortion any less repugnant.

reply from: Cecilia

I just saw this on the news.
I'm not surprised, he lived in dangerously way every day. i believe it, it's the crazy lunatic prolifers that would make me not want to an abortion doctor.

reply from: Yuuki

God lets us make our own decisions... but that doesn't mean every decision we make is right. And should we let people do things that are wrong just so God can have his say in the end? No, of course not! Murder of born people we can ALL agree is wrong. You would surely not use your above logic to legalize murder, would you?
Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
I do not think God would approve of a woman wasting a life out of fear, convenience, or any other reason women give for elective abortions. I understand their fear; I have been close to their position and can barely imagine the utter terror of an unexpected pregnancy. I can understand believing anything said to you in that situation if it will just make it "go away".
And that's why these women need help, not hate. They need someone to help them stand firm and strong and realise that this burden is not too much to carry; and they don't have to do it alone.

reply from: Yuuki

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.
I'm NOT pro-choice. You are behind the times my friend.

reply from: Cecilia

medical records? where is your M.D. from?

reply from: JRH

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.
I'm NOT pro-choice. You are behind the times my friend.
I did not say you were. I was attacking the idiocy of being a traditional pro lifer and then claiming this was unjustified vigilantism. Is it unjustified when a man kills someone trying to kill a 3 year old?

your post was a non responsive red herring.

reply from: Yuuki

If women "needed" abortions to save their lives they'd already be in hospitals, they wouldn't be pissing about with a procedure that takes a few days at some clinic.
Possibly a good point. I'm not sure. I need to think about it. Part of me is saying "Well what if they know ahead of time?" But then it's really not life threatening yet, is it? Cancer is life threatening long before it kills... NOT comparing the child to cancer, just saying that not all lethal conditions are sudden.

reply from: Yuuki

So how do you know that? Did you sneak into the skips behind his clinic and check the backs of those babies' heads for hole marks? Did he have to give up all his scissors?
Its a very hard thing to police.
Chances are, poisoning the child before its birth is still damn twisted and doesn't make abortion any less repugnant.
1. I am well versed in legal abortion procedures, having done a lot of research on it when I was pro-choice and now as a pro-lifer. Mostly to refute people who think partial brith abortion is still legal.
2. I've read Tiller's website, back when I was pro-choice, and looked up the types of procedures he performed.
There is no SENSE to why he would do a partial birth procedure since it is now illegal. They often offer the children to the parents to bury. I think they'd notice if their child's skull was caved in.

reply from: Yuuki

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.
I'm NOT pro-choice. You are behind the times my friend.
I did not say you were. I was attacking the idiocy of being a traditional pro lifer and then claiming this was unjustified vigilantism. Is it unjustified when a man kills someone trying to kill a 3 year old?

your post was a non responsive red herring.
I am NOT a traditional pro-lifer, what ever the hell you think that is. I think abortion is wrong, but Tiller was not aborting anyone at the moment. There is no way this can be interpreted as the defense of anyone in any way shape or form.

reply from: nancyu

I think that is the objective.

reply from: 4choice4all

which is why it's a terrorist act.

reply from: nancyu

I'm pro choice, but this is a really bad post. Why do we prevent the murder of a 5 year old child? Ideology. The same reasoning that you would use to make laws which prevent children from being murdered by parents who did not wish to care for them is employed by pro lifers. They see the fetus as a child.
Do my eyes deceive me? A logical and, dare I say, honest post from a pro choicer? Wow!
Thank you JRH.

reply from: churchmouse

BRAVO BRAVO.........
Oh so she hates people with a faith in God. That explains it. LOL She has no moral compass, but we all knew that didn't we?
I stand across from people like you every week.....White escorts leading black and minority women in to kill their babies. That has been the goal of PP since Sanger started it. Your racist and your acts are evil.
Cash cow? Honey you are so ignorant it's not funny. PP is the one with all the cash. They make money on dead babies. And guess what honey......your part of it. You are part of the killing machine. You would have been a good Nazi guard.
How close do ya get to the table 4choice4all. Do ya get to do the cool stuff like empty the remains? Do you get to see the babies killed? Or do you look away
Good point.
LMAO Yuuki Yuuki.......Tiller has been investigated for years because he has done illegal late term abortions.
And show me where they give the remains of the child that has been dismembered to the parents......provide evidence.
I have had an abortion......they will not let you see the remains.
What does that mean? Traditional pro-lifer. You think abortion is wrong but what?
I do not believe in violence and I do not condone the way Tiller was killed. He deserved to go to prison for the rest of his life.

reply from: 4choice4all

Religious nuts don't have faith in God.....they have distorted God to fit their sicko world view. That's how Roeder could justify something like this.
Tillers been investigated because of the zealots....and never found guilty...wow, imagine that.

reply from: Shenanigans

medical records? where is your M.D. from?
I didn't make the claim that these women needed an abortion to save their lives, therefore, the owness isn't on me to prove either way. I"m just pointing out that it's unlikely a woman needing an abortion to save her life would be going through a procedure that lasts a good couple of days.
If you guys have any proof to refute that point, feel free to post it.

reply from: Shenanigans

If women "needed" abortions to save their lives they'd already be in hospitals, they wouldn't be pissing about with a procedure that takes a few days at some clinic.
Possibly a good point. I'm not sure. I need to think about it. Part of me is saying "Well what if they know ahead of time?" But then it's really not life threatening yet, is it? Cancer is life threatening long before it kills... NOT comparing the child to cancer, just saying that not all lethal conditions are sudden.
Consider:
Abortion has been stated as ending a pregnancy, that the death of the foetus or uterine entity is not the intention.
If there is a condition that is predetermined at a point, or a pre-chronic stage and it has been determined the woman would benefit from teh end of the pregnancy.
However, the condition is not yet acute.
So, by the logic that abortion ends a pregnancy and is not intended to kill the child, and ending the pregnancy will at this stage prevent the onset of accute symptoms, and Tiller does post viability abortions...
WHy is the child being killed?
Why not send the woman to the hospital and have the child delivered, alive?
The child isn't going to die if the cervix is dilated over several days.
The more one over thinks the concept of abortion before acute onset the more you realise that this really is about killing the unborn.
This is just more proof that the "woman's life" senario is bullsh1t.

reply from: Shenanigans

Not if it's crammed up with gauze, and certinly not if its wearing a hat.
The face is usually left untouched as the facial bones are still structured enough to not be effected by a hole in the back of the head. Theres a story online of a woman who's baby had its brains sucked out by Tiller, pictures of said dead child inclusive

reply from: lukesmom

Well, well, well, Tiller dead. Hmmm, I don't condone violence and I am truly sorry someone killed him the way they did. I truly hoped he would pay for the murder of millions here on this earth in a peaceful manner. I guess that was not to be. His life's work was violent by his choice and he died in violence... Kinda makes you think, doesn't it?
I am offering prayers for his family, church and soul. My opinion is his soul is going to need a lot of prayers. I hope he finds a God more merciful than he, himself was to the unborn.

reply from: churchmouse

Like you would know. You help to kill babies. I would say this is a distorted view of life. You must have a lot of rage built up inside you.
You just don't know the difference between right and wrong.

reply from: 4choice4all

No rage....very slow to anger actually.

reply from: JRH

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.
I'm NOT pro-choice. You are behind the times my friend.
I did not say you were. I was attacking the idiocy of being a traditional pro lifer and then claiming this was unjustified vigilantism. Is it unjustified when a man kills someone trying to kill a 3 year old?

your post was a non responsive red herring.
I am NOT a traditional pro-lifer, what ever the hell you think that is. I think abortion is wrong, but Tiller was not aborting anyone at the moment. There is no way this can be interpreted as the defense of anyone in any way shape or form.
If you knew that there was a man who was going to kill a 2 year old would you try to stop him even if he was not trying to kill the 2 year old at that exact second? Yes or no answer please

reply from: BossMomma

So how do you know that? Did you sneak into the skips behind his clinic and check the backs of those babies' heads for hole marks? Did he have to give up all his scissors?
Its a very hard thing to police.
Chances are, poisoning the child before its birth is still damn twisted and doesn't make abortion any less repugnant.
1. I am well versed in legal abortion procedures, having done a lot of research on it when I was pro-choice and now as a pro-lifer. Mostly to refute people who think partial brith abortion is still legal.
2. I've read Tiller's website, back when I was pro-choice, and looked up the types of procedures he performed.
There is no SENSE to why he would do a partial birth procedure since it is now illegal. They often offer the children to the parents to bury. I think they'd notice if their child's skull was caved in.
Actually I think Tiller would inject the fetus and stop the heart then induce labor so the woman can deliver an intact child.

reply from: BossMomma

I think that is the objective.
That's YOUR objective. In my opinion a pro-lifer who guns an abortion provider down is as bad as his victim. What Tiller did for a living was disgusting but two wrongs do not equal right. Abortion would be better combatted with positive pro-active means..you know, like helping women choose life by giving them the help they need or, funding advances in contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy and, improving sex education.

reply from: JRH

I think that is the objective.
That's YOUR objective. In my opinion a pro-lifer who guns an abortion provider down is as bad as his victim. What Tiller did for a living was disgusting but two wrongs do not equal right. Abortion would be better combatted with positive pro-active means..you know, like helping women choose life by giving them the help they need or, funding advances in contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy and, improving sex education.Would you say the same thing if they were cutting apart 2 year olds and murder was committed to try to save them? I doubt it. Deep down most of you know a fetus is not a child.

reply from: nancyu

I think that is the objective.
That's YOUR objective. In my opinion a pro-lifer who guns an abortion provider down is as bad as his victim. What Tiller did for a living was disgusting but two wrongs do not equal right. Abortion would be better combatted with positive pro-active means..you know, like helping women choose life by giving them the help they need or, funding advances in contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancy and, improving sex education.Would you say the same thing if they were cutting apart 2 year olds and murder was committed to try to save them? I doubt it. Deep down most of you know a fetus is not a child.
Deep down you know a fetus IS a child.

reply from: Yuuki

So how do you know that? Did you sneak into the skips behind his clinic and check the backs of those babies' heads for hole marks? Did he have to give up all his scissors?
Its a very hard thing to police.
Chances are, poisoning the child before its birth is still damn twisted and doesn't make abortion any less repugnant.
1. I am well versed in legal abortion procedures, having done a lot of research on it when I was pro-choice and now as a pro-lifer. Mostly to refute people who think partial brith abortion is still legal.
2. I've read Tiller's website, back when I was pro-choice, and looked up the types of procedures he performed.
There is no SENSE to why he would do a partial birth procedure since it is now illegal. They often offer the children to the parents to bury. I think they'd notice if their child's skull was caved in.
Actually I think Tiller would inject the fetus and stop the heart then induce labor so the woman can deliver an intact child.
Um yeah, I know. That's why I posted that already. I know what procedures he uses... Shenanigans is convinced otherwise.

reply from: Yuuki

This is pretty stupid. If we assume that God believes the killing of fetus to be murder than god will see this as the act of a hero stopping a murder who is allowed to roam free by unjust laws. God in no way says in the bible that Christians who live in a truly evil nation must do evil things. If killing a fetus is not murder then you should stop being pro choice......
I'm not a Christian, I just think your response was silly.
I'm NOT pro-choice. You are behind the times my friend.
I did not say you were. I was attacking the idiocy of being a traditional pro lifer and then claiming this was unjustified vigilantism. Is it unjustified when a man kills someone trying to kill a 3 year old?

your post was a non responsive red herring.
I am NOT a traditional pro-lifer, what ever the hell you think that is. I think abortion is wrong, but Tiller was not aborting anyone at the moment. There is no way this can be interpreted as the defense of anyone in any way shape or form.
If you knew that there was a man who was going to kill a 2 year old would you try to stop him even if he was not trying to kill the 2 year old at that exact second? Yes or no answer please
If he wasn't trying to kill her that second, I'd have him arrested for threatening harm.

reply from: Shenanigans

I know too.
But we're talking about a guy who kills... well, killed post viable unborn children. Chances are he used his "discernment" to determine which method was needed.
I mean, we were all told that a PBA ban was bas because PBA saved womens' lives when their nasty pregnanices were threating their lives. Since Tiller was "saving the lives of women who had their lives threatened by their pregnancy" you'd think he' want all options to be used - even if they were illegal!
My point was its something you can't really police.

reply from: yoda

Deep down, you are sick.
Information Please: child -n., 8. a human fetus. http://www.infoplease.com/
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Main Entry: child 1 : an unborn or recently born person http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child

MSN Encarta Dictionary: child [ (plural chil·dren) noun 5. unborn baby
http://dictionary.msn.com/

reply from: yoda

There were no law enforcement officials in Tiller's butchery. He was free to do whatever he wanted to. He had "connections" to all Kansas law enforcement agencies.

reply from: JPRice

Abortion is big business.
"All Pro Choicers Have Been Born" or however that goes.
I came here from the http://www.blackgenocide.org site. Abortion is definitely rooted in racism. Klan Parenthood.

reply from: JPRice

It's also disgusting that this horrible act, is being used to make people rich, rich, rich.
To commit and abuse the act of abortion as a money making affair is disgusting.
Sibelius was just short of being a puppet for Tiller himself and it is shameful she is our Secretary of Health.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the fray, JP. I think Sibelius made it all the way to puppethood.

reply from: JPRice

Yodavater:
Thank You for the welcome. Now that I see your signature talks of Knoxville, for the record I am currently up in Minnesota.
On the anniversary day of Roe Vs. Wade, a young man took his truck and drove it basically into the doorway of Planned Parenthood on Ford Parkway in St. Paul, Minnesota. He did this basically around 8 AM in the morning. No one was hurt, he didn't drive it right into the building but up near it from what I can tell. I went and retrieved the story though I believe Drudgereport briefly reported on it. http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/38140094.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4Ohttp://www.startribune.com/pol...LckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">W3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUs . He was probably mentally off a bit, not for me to judge exactly.
The driver was saying "Auschwitz" words like that. This event this year in St. Paul is a much more minor incident than what happened in Kansas but a bit in the same way.
I read, the reason people find using the word "murder" for "abortion" as objectionable is that it is because it is and some have problems dealing with that. This was one person's opinion so it is easy to see that people get all wrapped up in thinking and reading about this evil.

reply from: JPRice

Duplicate: Apologies. Tried to delete.

reply from: JPRice

duplicate, this is bad in no way did I triplicate this.

reply from: JPRice

Yodavater:
Thank You for the welcome. Now that I see your signature talks of Knoxville, for the record I am currently up in Minnesota.
On the anniversary day of Roe Vs. Wade, a young man took his truck and drove it basically into the doorway of Planned Parenthood on Ford Parkway in St. Paul, Minnesota. He did this basically around 8 AM in the morning. No one was hurt, he didn't drive it right into the building but up near it from what I can tell. I went and retrieved the story though I believe Drudgereport briefly reported on it. http://www.startribune.com/politics/state/38140094.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4Ohttp://www.startribune.com/pol...LckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">W3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUs . He was probably mentally off a bit, not for me to judge exactly.
The driver was saying "Auschwitz" words like that. This event this year in St. Paul is a much more minor incident than what happened in Kansas but a bit in the same way.
I read, the reason people find using the word "murder" for "abortion" as objectionable is that it is because it is and some have problems dealing with that. This was one person's opinion so it is easy to see that people get all wrapped up in thinking and reading about this evil.

reply from: faithman

medical records? where is your M.D. from?
I didn't make the claim that these women needed an abortion to save their lives, therefore, the owness isn't on me to prove either way. I"m just pointing out that it's unlikely a woman needing an abortion to save her life would be going through a procedure that lasts a good couple of days.
If you guys have any proof to refute that point, feel free to post it.
These punks keep up the myth about medical need, when the proceedures done by tiller killer are almost never needed to save the mothers life. The dude who came up with PB abortion himself said that PB abortion is an elective procedure. Tiller killed perfectly healthy children, in perfectly healthy women for non-medical reasons purely for the bucks. He bought off the justice system and the government in Kansas with his blood money.As I have said many times, I morn his lost soul, but he will never suck the brains out of another child. He will not kill another woman by botched abortion. I do rejoice that the womb child has one less deadly enemy.

reply from: yoda

Both the incidents involve physical force, if that's what you mean.
Violence always follows very passionate issues, there's no way to prevent that. The last issue that so divided our nation was slavery, and look how much violence occurred over that.

reply from: churchmouse

4choice4all you didnt answer my question. How close do you get to the abortion table? Do you get to watch? Do you get the honor of empyting the buckets full of the remains?

reply from: sander

Both the incidents involve physical force, if that's what you mean.
Violence always follows very passionate issues, there's no way to prevent that. The last issue that so divided our nation was slavery, and look how much violence occurred over that.
Yes, violence does follow these kinds of issues, just ask the proaborts:
http://abortionviolence.com/

Human Life International has documented more than 8,519 acts of violence and illegal activities by pro-abortionists. These crimes include:
1,251 homicides and other killings
157 attempted homicides
28 arsons and firebombings
904 assaults
1,908 sex crimes (including 250 rapes)
106 kidnappings
420 cases of vandalism
290 drug crimes
1,616 medical crimes

reply from: galen

violence begets violence...

reply from: faithman

Not always. Sometimes lethal, justifiable force stops violence. There can be no civilization, without the proper use of force against evil aggression.

reply from: Banned Member

This is the problem, right here. You call what you do peaceful protest, but there is nothing peaceful about what you are describing here. You have every right to stand in front of a clinic holding signs, praying, singing Kumbaya, whatever. But you do not have the right to get into peoples faces, block their passage, take their pictures, copy their tags, scream obscenities at them, etc. That is no longer peaceful protest, that is harassment. That is using intimidation tactics, that is what leads to domestic terrorism.

reply from: sander

Human Life International has documented more than 8,519 acts of violence and illegal activities by pro-abortionists. These crimes include:
1,251 homicides and other killings
157 attempted homicides
28 arsons and firebombings
904 assaults
1,908 sex crimes (including 250 rapes)
106 kidnappings
420 cases of vandalism
290 drug crimes
1,616 medical crimes

reply from: Banned Member

Well, I very seriously doubt that those are valid...at least not all of them. But if anyone ever gets in my face for any reason, I have the right to remove them...period.

reply from: JRH

No, in this situation the killing of the 2 year old is legal. Society has said that it is ok because it is the choice of his parents. He will not be arrested.

reply from: Banned Member

290 drug crimes
Please elaborate.

reply from: JRH

Deep down, you are sick.
Information Please: child -n., 8. a human fetus. http://www.infoplease.com/
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: Main Entry: child 1 : an unborn or recently born person http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child
">http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child
MSN Encarta Dictionary: child [ (plural chil·dren) noun 5. unborn baby
http://dictionary.msn.com/
I do not use the word that way. A dictionary does not make a word means something, it codifies the meaning a great deal of people assign to it.

reply from: sander

Elaborate yourself, I'm not in the habit of helping vile little proaborts research anything.

reply from: Banned Member

Because you know that it's BS.

reply from: Faramir

Elaborate yourself, I'm not in the habit of helping vile little proaborts research anything.
If you make an assertion, you should provide a source.
I would like to be able to use those statics as well against the pro-choice side, but need some verification.
Syrenety, though Miss Sander claims to be a Christian, and though she has a multitude of excuses why she's entitled to be so arrogant and hateful, I hope that you would not think she represents what Christ would have us say to you.
I disagree strongly in your support of abortion, because I believe it is an injustice that takes the life of a person, but it is wrong to call you "vile" and asking for the source of her claim is perfectly reasonable.

reply from: sander

And YOUR excuse is?
He is such a laugh out loud joke!
He does exactly what he accuses me of doing and thinks anyone buys it!
He's the hypocrite of hypocrites.
LOL!!
He's truly worthy of the iggy button.

reply from: Faramir

I've seen those claims before somewhere, and I'm not ruling out that they CAN be substantiated, but it's ridiculous to make a claim and refuse to source it.

reply from: BossMomma

And YOUR excuse is?
He is such a laugh out loud joke!
He does exactly what he accuses me of doing and thinks anyone buys it!
He's the hypocrite of hypocrites.
LOL!!
He's truly worthy of the iggy button.
Careful, you might make the b*tch list.

reply from: Faramir

And YOUR excuse is?
He is such a laugh out loud joke!
He does exactly what he accuses me of doing and thinks anyone buys it!
He's the hypocrite of hypocrites.
LOL!!
He's truly worthy of the iggy button.
I wouldn't say sander is "vile" and wouldn't try to demonize her.
She's a sinner like I am, but unfortunately gives the impression that the moral high road of prolife and of Christianity gives one permission to treat others like dirt, and she's mistaken.

reply from: lukesmom

Ummm, she DID site a source. Just becuase YOU don't like the source doesn't make it less of a source. It is now up to you to answer your own questions.

reply from: Faramir

If she posted that link, my mistake and my apology. I assumed that she didn't because she refused to refer to it in a subsequent post.

reply from: 4choice4all

I've looked at those sites and some of the cases are from 1850,lol. Some numbers include men that beat a woman for not having an abortion....they are labeled as "prochoice violence" and not "domestic abuse acts"....so it's a joke.

reply from: lukesmom

You seem to be the king of assumptions. Read before you jump to a conclusion, you would save yourself alot of problems and apologies.

reply from: sander

And YOUR excuse is?
He is such a laugh out loud joke!
He does exactly what he accuses me of doing and thinks anyone buys it!
He's the hypocrite of hypocrites.
LOL!!
He's truly worthy of the iggy button.
Careful, you might make the b*tch list.
I did a long time ago, I wear it as a badge of honor.
There isn't a defender of proaborts or abortion that I have any use for, whatsoever.

reply from: Banned Member

I wasn't asking for the source she got her statistics from. I meant how is a drug crime related to pro choice violence? I don't think it does.
The site she sources doesn't give any further proof of these claims. She copied the list just as it is on the site. Hardly proof.

reply from: lukesmom

I wasn't asking for the source she got her statistics from. I meant how is a drug crime related to pro choice violence? I don't think it does.
The site she sources doesn't give any further proof of these claims. She copied the list just as it is on the site. Hardly proof.
So do your research and PROVE your hypothosis of these claims. It is not up to her to prove your opinions, it is up to you. She provided a link to her source and that is all she is required to do. You have to do your own research, not Sander.

reply from: Faramir

There are unfortunately on that site incidents that are not bona fide pro-choice violence.
For example, if an abortionist murders his wife, that's not pro-choice violence unless he specifically did so because she's a pro-life advocate.
Sometimes Pastors murder their wives, and it would be unfair to call that "Christian violence."
I would love to believe the other incidents are true, and if they are, they're despicable, but how can they be used as evidence if there is nothing more there than an accusation? Are any of these accusations linked to news sources or police records, or some kind of document or source that would verify them?

reply from: Faramir

A link to a website with unverified claims is no different than a post here.
If I were going to assert prochoice violence, I would want a lot more behind it than a website with a laundry list of accusations, and if someone called me on it, it would be up to me to verify them since I made the assertion.
But that's in the world of real discussions and debate, I suppose.

reply from: spidey

Yes, are you?
Incorrect.
Please explain. Killers break laws in this country. What law or laws did Dr. Tiller break?
So you're saying that Dr. Tiller did not want to help people? You know this how, exactly?

reply from: sander

I wasn't asking for the source she got her statistics from. I meant how is a drug crime related to pro choice violence? I don't think it does.
The site she sources doesn't give any further proof of these claims. She copied the list just as it is on the site. Hardly proof.
So do your research and PROVE your hypothosis of these claims. It is not up to her to prove your opinions, it is up to you. She provided a link to her source and that is all she is required to do. You have to do your own research, not Sander.
That would take too much effort on their part, Lukesmom.
These people have taking the "easy way out" down to a bloody science.

reply from: Faramir

lol,
What is easier than just spouting "pro aborts are evil and wicked and thank god I'm so much better than they are" all day?

reply from: yoda

You did not specify any particular "way" the word was being used, you simply said: "Deep down most of you know a fetus is not a child." That is a BLANKET STATEMENT!
And NO ONE SAID that dictionaries "make a word mean something", did they????

reply from: yoda

Then why don't you ever do that? Seriously, are we not allowed to express an opinion here without being forced to document every single one of them? And are you now in charge, or what?
Seriously, Fara, you are not one tenth of the person whom you are attacking.
You really make yourself look idiotic and pitiful when you do that.

reply from: yoda

Documentation is voluntary, Fara. Didn't you get the memo?

reply from: yoda

Oh but it's "okay" when Fara says it...... didn't he tell you?

reply from: yoda

Attendance here is voluntary, Fara.

reply from: yoda

They DO? Always?
So policemen who kill in the line of duty break laws? And those who kill in self-defense break laws? And those who kill accidentally break laws?
Wow, what a genius!!

reply from: yoda

So far, YOU are the only one I've seen say that, Fara......

reply from: Faramir

So far, YOU are the only one I've seen say that, Fara......
Wow, you must not read many of the posts here, because that's what 90% of them say.

reply from: yoda

Got a link that you can DOCUMENT that claim with?
Or is that just more hot air BS?

reply from: Faramir

I believe prochoicers are capeable of violence against prolifers and believe it has been done.
But at the moment, I don't have any proof, and I would be very embarrassed to use a link to that website as "proof" since there is none there.

reply from: Faramir

Got a link that you can DOCUMENT that claim with?
Or is that just more hot air BS?
Sorry, just did a survey of the past 7,000 posts and the figure has been adjusted to 86.6%.
My bad.

reply from: yoda

Does the name "Eileen Orstein Janezic" ring a bell?
In 1993, pro-abortion activist Eileen Orstein Janezic murdered 51-year old pro-life activist minister and radio talk show host Jerry Simon. After killing Simon, she held police at bay with a pistol for six hours while spouting quotes from Anton LaVey's "Satanic Bible." On October 27, 1994, a jury found her guilty of murder and sentenced her to life in prison. During trial, she admitted that she had shot Simon to prove her love of Satan.
References: World Magazine, September 18, 1993; "Pro-Life Leader, Pastor Murdered by Avowed Satanist." Life Advocate, November 1993, page 7.

reply from: yoda

IOW, more hot air from the biggest windbag on the forum.
Need any help to find the door?

reply from: lukesmom

So far, YOU are the only one I've seen say that, Fara......
Wow, you must not read many of the posts here, because that's what 90% of them say.
But yet, proaborts make blanket nasty statements that all prolifers are religious nuts and currently are celebrating the shooting of a fellow human being. I have yet to see you slap proabort hands on ANY of their nastiness. Is it just the prolifers you like to monitor and pick apart and whine about? Many of us prolifers have been attacked with lies, been called nasty names, etc and not one little peep from you, our own self appointed monitor of all prolife comments, deeds. My aren't we lucky!

reply from: Banned Member

Does the name "Eileen Orstein Janezic" ring a bell?
In 1993, pro-abortion activist Eileen Orstein Janezic murdered 51-year old pro-life activist minister and radio talk show host Jerry Simon. After killing Simon, she held police at bay with a pistol for six hours while spouting quotes from Anton LaVey's "Satanic Bible." On October 27, 1994, a jury found her guilty of murder and sentenced her to life in prison. During trial, she admitted that she had shot Simon to prove her love of Satan.
References: World Magazine, September 18, 1993; "Pro-Life Leader, Pastor Murdered by Avowed Satanist." Life Advocate, November 1993, page 7.
That is not a pro-choice crime. She didn't kill him because he was Pro-Life, she did it for Satan. Also showing that she was just an off-balanced person. Satanism isn't really the worship of Satan, they don't even really believe he exists.

reply from: spidey

They DO? Always?
Yes. Always.
Are you calling policemen killers? Are you calling a woman who defends herself a killer? Are you saying that a child who causes an accident is a killer?
Killers break laws. That's why we refer to them as such. Stop trying to manipulate my words. It's not going to work, and it makes your argument even weaker than it already is. Instead, why not try to answer the question? What law or laws did Dr. Tiller break?

reply from: yoda

Do you have the slightest idea what a "killer" is? Any idea at all? (Hint: it's someone who kills, or has killed.)
Main Entry: 1 kill·er Function: noun
1: one that kills http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/killer

Really? Which dictionary defines "killer" as one who breaks laws???
The Kansas law about having an independent physician offer a second opinion comes to mind first. But there are several others that I believe he broke quite often. Oh, yes I know he "OJ'd" all the charges, but so what?

reply from: sk1bianca

kill
- verb (used with object)
1. to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
(...)
kill?er
- noun
1. a person or thing that kills.
according to the dictionary, tiller was a killer. he killed http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/47.html.

reply from: 4choice4all

Doh..your own "proof" said she shot Simon to prove her love to Satan...not because he was prolife. And his wife said it was because they wouldn't testify for her in court over child custody.

reply from: yoda

Hey, don't confuse them with FACTS...... spidey already has his/her mind made up!!

reply from: yoda

Yeah, right........ that was after the local PP president coached her, right?

reply from: yoda

He's on a "mission" to whip us into shape and force us into "perfection".
And he's using himself as a template.......

reply from: yoda

It IS a "prochoice crime" in the same sense that the killing of an abortionist by emotionally unstable people is. Doesn't matter how flaky they are, they are still proaborts killing prolifers because they hate them.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, and OJ was acquitted in a court of law, too.
It was a half-hearted prosecution by a proabort prosecutor who was not at all enthusiastic about the job, in front of a proabort judge who did not even instruct the jury on the law.
That consulting doctor, the one whom Tiller testified under oath "worked for me", was not "independent" in any way. She had NO OTHER JOB than to go to HIS CLINIC and see HIS patients.

reply from: yoda

What? You have inside information on Tiller's killer?
How? Were you a part of the plot?

reply from: faithman

What? You have inside information on Tiller's killer?
How? Were you a part of the plot?
WELL!! It is certainly true of the womb children that took a one way trip into tiller killer's clinic. They were most assuredly killed SOLELY because of abortion. But the false voices of the pro-life bowel movement would rather Tiller be killing in his clinic today, rather than getting ready for a dirt quilt. May a choir of the children he killed serinade him for eternaty.

reply from: sk1bianca

tiller was killed because of his "stance on abortion"?! is that how you call the brutal killing of thousands of unborn children? or what... was he merely "making a point"? "expressing his views"?!...

reply from: faithman

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/47.html

reply from: lukesmom

Nice try but not a chance. Tiller and the rest were killed SOLELY because of abortion. Someone's stance on abortion in random murders has no bearing on the case UNLESS that is the MOTIVE. You do know what motive means?
So because Tiller was a killer of the unborn, you assume, the ONLY motive was the killer has made prolife statements in the past? Glad you aren't in law enforcement...

reply from: spidey

In the context of this thread? Yes, apparently better than you.
Dr. Tiller has been referred to as a "killer" and a "murderer" interchangeably in this thread. Therefore, "killer" and "murderer" mean the same thing for the purposes of this discussion, in which case, both terms are meant in accordance with a criminal act. Are you done with this now? Or would you like to quote the dictionary of "murderer" as well?
Stop trying to play these word games. They serve no purpose.
Thank you. So Dr. Tiller broke laws (you have proven this), therefore what he was doing was illegal. Correct?
So my next question is, why wasn't he in jail?

reply from: Faramir

Lucky indeed!
And to think that there is no charge for my services.
And when I see some pro-abort scum who rises to the level of nastiness as the pro-life stars of this forum, of course I will slap their nasty little handses.
I think you're being too senstive about my comments, especially since I rarely post about those things anymore.
But I find it very frustrating as a pro-lifer so see this cause used as an excuse to go on pompous self-righteous ego trips, casting the vermin into hell--especially from good Christian ladies who ought to know better than that, so what's wrong with me putting in my two cents about it?
Sander has already used CM as a punching bag and put her in the same category as the "pro aborts," and you said not a peep against your cybersister for such a horrible insult of a pro-life advocate. How come? Nancyu has made yet another thread singling out a pro-lifer. One of the sports of this forum seems to be attacking other pro-lifers, so don't think that criticism of pro-lifers by a pro-lifer is unique to me.
It is beneath the dignity of the pro-life movement for pro-lifers to use such a noble cause as a way to put others down and to feel superior. I'm not referring to normal heated exchanges, but to the demonization and rude comments that are unprovoked.
Read my signature a few times, and maybe you'll get an idea of where I'm coming from. Do you see anything wrong with Fr. Pavone's attitude besides the fact that it could spoil someone's fun?

reply from: faithman

In the context of this thread? Yes, apparently better than you.
Dr. Tiller has been referred to as a "killer" and a "murderer" interchangeably in this thread. Therefore, "killer" and "murderer" mean the same thing for the purposes of this discussion, in which case, both terms are meant in accordance with a criminal act. Are you done with this now? Or would you like to quote the dictionary of "murderer" as well?
Stop trying to play these word games. They serve no purpose.
Thank you. So Dr. Tiller broke laws (you have proven this), therefore what he was doing was illegal. Correct?
So my next question is, why wasn't he in jail?
Because tiller bought the government with his blood money and put prodeath punks like you into office.

reply from: spidey

Because tiller bought the government with his blood money and put prodeath punks like you into office.
Ah! So he broke the law and then paid off the government to avoid going to jail. (Hence the 'OJ' comments earlier.) Do I have this right?

reply from: faithman

Because tiller bought the government with his blood money and put prodeath punks like you into office.
Ah! So he broke the law and then paid off the government to avoid going to jail. (Hence the 'OJ' comments earlier.) Do I have this right?
If you had really been keeping up, you wouldn't have to ask.

reply from: Banned Member

It IS a "prochoice crime" in the same sense that the killing of an abortionist by emotionally unstable people is. Doesn't matter how flaky they are, they are still proaborts killing prolifers because they hate them.
No, it wouldn't be a pro choice crime unless she killed him because he was pro life. That wasn't the case.

reply from: faithman

It IS a "prochoice crime" in the same sense that the killing of an abortionist by emotionally unstable people is. Doesn't matter how flaky they are, they are still proaborts killing prolifers because they hate them.
No, it wouldn't be a pro choice crime unless she killed him because he was pro life. That wasn't the case.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/47.html

reply from: Banned Member

It IS a "prochoice crime" in the same sense that the killing of an abortionist by emotionally unstable people is. Doesn't matter how flaky they are, they are still proaborts killing prolifers because they hate them.
No, it wouldn't be a pro choice crime unless she killed him because he was pro life. That wasn't the case.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/47.html
https://http://www.kansascity.com/934/gallery/1226113-a1226072-t3.htmlhttp://www.kansascity.com/934/gallery/1226113-a1226072-t3.html

reply from: faithman

It IS a "prochoice crime" in the same sense that the killing of an abortionist by emotionally unstable people is. Doesn't matter how flaky they are, they are still proaborts killing prolifers because they hate them.
No, it wouldn't be a pro choice crime unless she killed him because he was pro life. That wasn't the case.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/AbortionPictures/47.html
https://http://www.kansascity.com/934/gallery/1226113-a1226072-t3.htmlhttp://www.kansascity.com/934/gallery/1226113-a1226072-t3.html
AAAAAHHHH, taking out the trash again eh?

reply from: Banned Member

You really should be reported to the authorities. You need to be under close scrutiny at all times.

reply from: Shenanigans

Chances are the procedure was created to ensure that foetal organs were intact in the body. Since places stopped using animals to experiment they need something else. And the cosmetic industry really appreciates "donations" of foetal skin.
Its a great big dispicable industry.

reply from: Shenanigans

Does she get to meet those women years later when they're only release from the nightmares and mental trauma is alcohol and drugs?

reply from: Shenanigans

You must define "get in your face". Becuase I can stand within mm of you, and as long as I'm not touching you, you can't do jack, well, not legally.

reply from: Shenanigans

Innocent till proven guilty?
You ever heard of that?
From what I understand the American justice system is built around this foundation.
Just because someone is an arsehole, or a little crazy, does not make him guilty that is determined when the jury delivers a guilty verdict.

reply from: Banned Member

You must define "get in your face". Becuase I can stand within mm of you, and as long as I'm not touching you, you can't do jack, well, not legally.
So you think that getting in woman's faces is 'peaceful'? Figures...
I yes, if you were that close to me most cops would see that justifiable cause for me to get you out of my face. But it would probably depend on the cop on the scene. Don't you ever watch Cops?

reply from: Shenanigans

You misunderstand the purpose of my post.
Such behaviour is certainly not peaceful, and it is something of an threatening and instigating act, but such annoyance is not legal justification for you to "remove" someone from your personal space.
I, for one, do not support any action that harms or frightens women who are already in stressful situations, I certainly don't see how doing so would win a woman over to the mindset that the child in her womb is worthy of her consideration and should be allowed to live.
You do know that Cops is a TV show? Right?
And as it is, legally, you can't remove them from your presence, you could argue justification, but without them actually touching your or verbilising a threat, you have no legal recourse - you have to prove they have intent to physically harm you.

reply from: JRH

You did not specify any particular "way" the word was being used, you simply said: "Deep down most of you know a fetus is not a child." That is a BLANKET STATEMENT!
Yes, how is this a response to what I said?
Directly implied by your post. Why else would you have posted it? You're not that bright are you?

reply from: spidey

If you had really been keeping up, you wouldn't have to ask.
Oh, but I *do* have to ask. This is because I haven't been keeping up, and I'm not interested in who's ultimately "right" or "wrong" in this matter. I don't care about abortion rights one way or the other. If the Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me in the least.
And therein lies your entire problem.
I would never even come on this forum had it not been for this recent terrorist act. I joined so that I could learn what people are saying about Dr. Tiller and the terrorist who murdered him. And I have to say, the impression so far is not good. No, not at all.
There is so much hate speech in this thread alone, that I must conclude that you and many others here are siding with the terrorist on this issue. You actually condone what was done, because you hate what Dr. Tiller was doing. According to you, a man committed a crime, got away with it, and so it's okay for a vigilante to take the law into his own hands and commit another crime to rectify the situation. If that's your position, so be it. I'm not here to change your mind. But I must tell you, it's exactly that line of thinking that makes you evil incarnate in the eyes of a nation and throughout the world.
We hear what you say on TV. We read what you post on these forums and websites. And then we reach our own conclusions. And it is exactly your line of thinking that convinces citizens everywhere that you are on the wrong side of the issue. You openly condone this act of terrorism within your own country. And you actively wish harm on your fellow Americans. All in the name of what? Your "religion"? Your "god"? Your "righteousness"? So shout your beliefs now! You are out! You are exposed, quite clearly! Be proud of your position. You feel strongly about it. The world is watching. Death to abortion doctors everywhere! You would shoot them all tomorrow, yes? You would happily pull the trigger on your fellow citizens, right? They deserve to die. That is your ultimate position, and there can be no other.
This is what the broader take-away is to millions of Americans that don't feel as strongly about this issue as you do. You're not engendering more support for your position. In fact, just the opposite! You're actively pushing people away with your hateful rhetoric. We hear what you say and see what you write and conclude that you are crazy. Yes, your own words have done this. Your own words have convinced me that your radicalized position will be judged as morally corrupt, religiously unfounded, and murderous to the core. In short, your whole movement will be branded by this terrorist act (and the others that came before it), because you continued to spew your trash as a man lay dead on a CHURCH FLOOR.
So speak your mind. Enlighten everyone here. You're doing such a good job.

reply from: JPRice

If you had really been keeping up, you wouldn't have to ask.
Oh, but I *do* have to ask. This is because I haven't been keeping up, and I'm not interested in who's ultimately "right" or "wrong" in this matter. I don't care about abortion rights one way or the other. If the Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade tomorrow, it wouldn't bother me in the least.
And therein lies your entire problem.
I would never even come on this forum had it not been for this recent terrorist act. I joined so that I could learn what people are saying about Dr. Tiller and the terrorist who murdered him. And I have to tell say, the impression so far is not good. No, not at all.
There is so much hate speech in this thread alone, that I must conclude that you and many others here are siding with the terrorist on this issue. You actually condone what was done, because you hate what Dr. Tiller was doing. According to you, a man committed a crime, got away with it, and so it's okay for a vigilante to take the law into his own hands and commit another crime to rectify the situation. If that's your position, so be it. I don't need to try to changing your line of thinking. But I must tell you, it's exactly that line of thinking that makes you evil incarnate in the eyes of a nation and throughout the world.
We hear what you say on TV. We read what you post on these forums and websites. And then we reach our own conclusions. And it is exactly your line of thinking that convinces citizens everywhere that you are on the wrong side of the issue. You openly condone this act of terrorism within your own country. And you actively wish harm on your fellow Americans. All in the name of what? Your "religion"? Your "god"? Your "righteousness"? So shout your beliefs now! You are out! You are exposed, quite clearly! Be proud of your position. You feel strongly about it. The world is watching. Death to abortion doctors everywhere! You would shoot them all tomorrow, yes? You would happily pull the trigger on your fellow citizens, right? They deserve to die. That is your ultimate position, and there can be no other.
This is what the broader take-away is to millions of Americans that don't feel as strongly about this issue as you do. You're not engendering more support for your position. In fact, just the opposite! You're actively pushing people away with your hateful rhetoric. We hear what you say and see what you write and conclude that you are crazy. Yes, your own words have done this. Your own words have convinced me that your radicalized position will be judged as morally corrupt, religiously unfounded, and murderous to the core. In short, your whole movement will be branded by this terrorist act, because you continued to spew your trash as a man lay dead on a CHURCH FLOOR.
So speak your mind. Enlighten everyone here. You're doing such a good job.
This gal who wrote these posts at the Atlantic http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/a_really_long_post_about_abort.php and http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/06/one_more_post_on_abortion.php , The Atlantic not to ever be considered a conservative website makes a very valid point.
She brings up a good point. We've heard for years, Palestinians using acts of Terror against Israel. Yet, few would lump all Palestinians with doing such acts and calling them Terrorists. No, so we are really seeing a discriminatory act in hearing, "don't lump ya all together."
For too long, Pro Lifers have heard an outrageous statement concerning abortion, "who cares?", a most cynical attitude. You know, it's the Choicers that are so abhorrent.
Maybe if the Government weren't running roughshod over the US Public with this issue and being fair, there would not have been any Tiller incident. In fact, it is clear, it is a big money making enterprise, abortion.
This murder is very bad, the murder against Tiller, but it's sure making the Olbermanns, the Huffingtons look at this instead of putting out the usual crass tactless response as normal.

reply from: 4choice4all

If a majority of the country made prolife politics a priority, we wouldn't have Obama as president. Perhaps many that express prolife personal lives are prochoice when it comes to others.

reply from: JPRice

Unfortunately, I don't think people were informed.
With all the issues with Obama, one can't be sure he is legitimate, letting black panthers go, ACORN and the like, his backing.

reply from: spidey

Look, I'm sure Ms. McArdle is quite an intelligent woman, but her points are summarily unfounded. Committing murder to accomplish one's goal in this country is not comparable to what is going on in Palestine, and I would ask you not to cloud the issue. (Yes, let's have a debate about abortion rights AND the Mid East peace process at the same time. Yes, yes....) Bottom line is, no one in this country gets to force you or I to agree with them based on fear or terror. That's a crime, and its something we should all be able to agree on.
And if you don't want to be "lumped together", then stand up and disassociate yourself from these extremist groups. But you can't, because deep down inside, you believe that the right thing was done. Justice was served. And the world is better for it. Besides, what would you suggest we do to appease the anti-abortion terrorists? Nope, no discrimination there.
Oh, I totally agree. Those damn Choicers! It's all their fault. Don't you wish we could just kill them all? Abhorrent little bastards, every last one of them! With their flippant little attitudes, and their backwards thinking. Don't they know they're wrong?!?! Makes me just want to blow up a church full of them.
YES! Thank you! That's exactly it. Abortion is an enterprise that is making SO much money, that there are kids in medical school right now that can't WAIT to get out into the real world and start killing babies. I mean, so what if you can't get an abortion in 87% of the counties in this country, right? There's still 13% where you can, and it's a Cash Cow. I know this one doctor who kills babies? He gets like $5,000 a pop. And the line of pregnant woman at his clinic is around the block. He's probably so rich. Too bad the Government is being so unfair over all of this. I agree, Dr. Tiller would probably still be alive if the Government wasn't so mean.
Interesting. So you think that the Olbermanns and the Huffingtons of the world - the left-leaning media - might actually have something smart to say about this issue, rather than what they usually talk about? Is that what you're saying? It's interesting, because somehow you seem to think that these liberals are going to research this issue and come to the conclusion that...what, exactly? They've been wrong all this time? That anti-abortion extremists are right? In fact, this incident has only helped further their side of the agenda. Go watch those shows. See what they're saying. This is a rallying call to their side. You should pray that they forget about this incident quickly.
Hey, I would rather that there was never another abortion anywhere on the planet. But right now, guess what? With the way people are carrying on about how evil Dr. Tiller was, and how HE was the bad guy here? And, oh, let's ignore the fact that a terrorist act just occurred on our soil by one of our own citizens? Hell, I wouldn't care if they started handing out free abortions with every Happy Meal at McDonald's.
And that's YOUR SIDE'S fault.

reply from: 4choice4all

Oh please....if you voted for Obama and didn't know he was prochoice you must be deaf, dumb and blind. You couldn't miss it. The fact is they DID know...and voted for him anyway.

reply from: JPRice

I don't think as many people knew his views are so sordid. I don't think people knew that his views could be called infanticide.
The economy became the key, gas prices at around $4 a barrel and coming down right after the election.
"Obama's position essentially boils down to this: a woman who contracts for an abortion is entitled, one way or another, to a dead baby. A dead baby must result, even if that baby had already been a distinct living being. The killing of some live babies is just part of the price we must pay in order to keep the sacred right to an abortion supreme and absolute, beyond any shadow of a doubt.
What kind of principle is this? What core value is Obama expressing? What extremist doctrine or interest is he defending? And how doctrinaire must one be to defend actual infanticide? This goes well beyond any reasonable advocacy of a woman's "right to choose;" it attacks a living baby's right to life. His position is not simply "pro-choice;" it is radically anti-life. It is, in fact, pro-death. Whatever one may make of the doctrines of his America-bashing, anti-Israel, Farrakhan-honoring pastor (or why a "uniter" would belong to his church for over 20 years), Obama professes to be a practicing Christian; so, what in the life-affirming Judeo-Christian value system could possibly give license to kill live babies? "
Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1207159750412&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

reply from: JPRice

Look, I'm sure Ms. McArdle is quite an intelligent woman, but her points are summarily unfounded. Committing murder to accomplish one's goal in this country is not comparable to what is going on in Palestine, and I would ask you not to cloud the issue. (Yes, let's have a debate about abortion rights AND the Mid East peace process at the same time. Yes, yes....) Bottom line is, no one in this country gets to force you or I to agree with them based on fear or terror. That's a crime, and its something we should all be able to agree on.
And if you don't want to be "lumped together", then stand up and disassociate yourself from these extremist groups. But you can't, because deep down inside, you believe that the right thing was done. Justice was served. And the world is better for it. Besides, what would you suggest we do to appease the anti-abortion terrorists? Nope, no discrimination there.
I think the analogy with the Palestinians is quite proper. How are we suppose to feel about Tiller? Mourn him like when Elvis died?
Oh, I totally agree. Those damn Choicers! It's all their fault. Don't you wish we could just kill them all? Abhorrent little bastards, every last one of them! With their flippant little attitudes, and their backwards thinking. Don't they know they're wrong?!?! Makes me just want to blow up a church full of them.
YES! Thank you! That's exactly it. Abortion is an enterprise that is making SO much money, that there are kids in medical school right now that can't WAIT to get out into the real world and start killing babies. I mean, so what if you can't get an abortion in 87% of the counties in this country, right? There's still 13% where you can, and it's a Cash Cow. I know this one doctor who kills babies? He gets like $5,000 a pop. And the line of pregnant woman at his clinic is around the block. He's probably so rich. Too bad the Government is being so unfair over all of this. I agree, Dr. Tiller would probably still be alive if the Government wasn't so mean.
$5,000 x 60,000 abortions, I'm sure it's not that. It would be nice to know the average. Seeing how he was only 1 of 3 who did it in the USA, seems like he had the market. Other doctors, that learned profession, overwhelmingly stayed away from it.
Interesting. So you think that the Olbermanns and the Huffingtons of the world - the left-leaning media - might actually have something smart to say about this issue, rather than what they usually talk about? Is that what you're saying? It's interesting, because somehow you seem to think that these liberals are going to research this issue and come to the conclusion that...what, exactly? They've been wrong all this time? That anti-abortion extremists are right? In fact, this incident has only helped further their side of the agenda. Go watch those shows. See what they're saying. This is a rallying call to their side. You should pray that they forget about this incident quickly.
Hey, I would rather that there was never another abortion anywhere on the planet. But right now, guess what? With the way people are carrying on about how evil Dr. Tiller was, and how HE was the bad guy here? And, oh, let's ignore the fact that a terrorist act just occurred on our soil by one of our own citizens? Hell, I wouldn't care if they started handing out free abortions with every Happy Meal at McDonald's.
And that's YOUR SIDE'S fault.
If that is your attitude, at times, I wonder if this causes any new damage. The attitude of those journalists is often callous and hard already, they already have it figured out, just like Obama's voting record on infanticide. Do these sound like soft hearts that could be swayed to begin with. Olbermann's heart was pumping on this, trying to blame O'Reilly, a real hissy fit. I said elsewhere that I was sorry as to the backlash this could cause. Education has been key: people are starting to see abortion for what it is. That is why that poll recently showed 51% of Americans called themselves pro-life.
I don't know your side, but MAYBE NOTHING HAS CHANGED with your side.
It goes without saying, everyone has read this comprehensive website: http://www.dr-tiller.com/ If I am able to link to that.

reply from: CDC700

If you wish to see the baby, we call this an identification and separation encounter. About 2-3 hours after you deliver and after the twilight anesthesia has worn off, so that you will remember the process, we will bring the baby to you either at the bedside or we will go to our quiet room and we will bring the baby to you there. During this encounter we will describe to you what's right with your baby, we will identify what's wrong with your baby. You may hold the baby. We can take pictures of you and the family holding the baby, if you wish, and that is not an uncommon request. The identification/separation encounter may be very brief, five or ten minutes. It may even take less than that. Or the identification/separation encounter may involve 2 or 3 hours of bonding with the baby - the identification that this is your baby and you have had a delivery. We understand beyond a shadow of a doubt that the difficult part of this process is not the premature delivery of the stillborn. We understand that the easy part of this process is the premature delivery of the stillborn. The difficult part of the process is saying goodbye to the relationship that you have with your baby - saying goodbye to the hopes and the dreams that you have for this - you have placed this baby in your life someplace and you simply have to start the process of saying goodbye.
When you have finished your support - when you have finished your identification encounter you will separate from the baby by giving the baby to us and you will begin the process of saying goodbye on a long-term basis and you will begin your journey into growth, recuperation, recovery, and healing.
That is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. That sick F--K must have had some severe mental issues. He didn't even take the usual ignorant "it's not a baby until it's born" He called them BABIES and proceeded to kill them, and then offer to let the worthless tramps hold the remains in their arms or an urn. GLAD HE'S GONE!

reply from: CDC700

"being antichoice" hardly defines me and is just a weak "labeling" that the mentally ill throw out as a defense for their lack of fundamental understanding in regards to human life. Notice you don't have anything to say that would disqualify any of my statements? What makes more sense and holds closer to truth? If I had said "The great doctor" and "responsible women" would that have made sense? Heck No! Go kick your dog and slap your wife/husband/"life partner" after all, you are all about violence against babies.

reply from: faithman

If they can be pushed away, they never were for the womb child in the first place. I don't stand because of some phony bolonie personality cult "leader", in the pro-life bowel movement. I stand for the womb child because I believe it to be right. I am led by personal conviction alone. If the weak hearted walk away, that is on them, not me. And what you pro-death punks know full well, and scares the baby blood poluted fecal matter out of you, is the very oposite may be true. I just very well might be the voice of true prolifers who have been beaten down by the voices of false leaders. I have no position to defend, and I do not make a living off of this, so I have no pay check to protect. All my resources, and all my efforts go into IAAP [click the blue text in my signature]. I hope and pray for a peacful end to this mess, and have spent thousands of dollars, and invested untold hours to that end. But I will never condemn those who have the courage to take action that says the womb child is worthy of the same protection as all innocent persons deserve. There is one less deadly enemy, who will never suck brains from the skulls of children. I believe that is a good thing. If the phonies want to run from that, good redance. We are better off with out them. I have always encouraged people to follow their own heart on this issue, and that I would serve anyone with IAAP material that requested it. I stand alone, and claim to be no ones leader but my own. I am not here to polish the image of a failed "movement". I am here to fight for the innocent womb child, and spare them from evil blood thristy pro-death punks like you. I could really care less if anyone follows me or not. You are talking to the wrong somebody if you think I care what borthead scum has to say, or what weak hearted "prolifers" with personal agendas think or do.

reply from: Yuuki

Why exactly did many of Tiller's patients abort?

reply from: faithman

Because they were selfish killers who didn't want to miss out on the concert.

reply from: CDC700

Where does the list end?
1. They were whores and having a baby would slow them down
2. They wanted to "legally" kill something
3. They were weak minded and other people told them it was okay
4. It was a convenient way to avoid a responsibility
5. It's "cool" to have an abortion
6. "Dr." Tiller said it was okay
7. They needed a new reason to hate themselves
8. They were concerned about overpopulating the world......
.........
............
...............

reply from: faithman

...kinda like a chicken voting for cernal sanders.

reply from: kd78

4choice4all stop lumping all pro-lifers into the extremist category that always makes the news. it is a tiny percent that screw it up for everyone else.
also as others have said tiller could've been killed for being a general arse!

reply from: kd78

there's an abortion clinic about 2 blocks from my mom's house. just about every saturday there's a small group of protesters outside from early in the morning until i think noon or so. and guess what they do? stand quietly and occasionally speak quietly while holding signs condemning abortion. yep they're incredibly violent jackasses! *sarcasm*

reply from: spidey

Look, I'm sure Ms. McArdle is quite an intelligent woman, but her points are summarily unfounded. Committing murder to accomplish one's goal in this country is not comparable to what is going on in Palestine, and I would ask you not to cloud the issue. (Yes, let's have a debate about abortion rights AND the Mid East peace process at the same time. Yes, yes....) Bottom line is, no one in this country gets to force you or I to agree with them based on fear or terror. That's a crime, and its something we should all be able to agree on.
I think the analogy with the Palestinians is quite proper.
Ok, please explain your position then. Otherwise, I can only conclude that you condone murder.
Ok, the logic here makes no sense. First, you say that the abortion business is a "big money making enterprise". Then I sarcastically rib you by saying that there all these abortion doctors who can't wait to get out of med school, which you gloss over, probably because you got the joke and know that that is not the case. But then you latch on to my $5,000 figure and multiply it by the number of procedures Dr. Tiller performed, and conclude that $300 million is WAY too much money for Dr. Tiller to have made. But now you have a dilemma, because you believe that the enterprise is vast and profitable. You can't have it both ways. What if Dr. Tiller's lifetime revenue were half that $300 figure? $150 million? Or even $50 million? Pick your number. In the end, if, as you say, he had the market, he be rich beyond his wildest dreams. And we clearly know that not to be the case. And we should also mention another major flaw in the logic. If this type of procedure really was a "money maker", other people would see how much money Dr. Tiller was making and want a piece of it. That's how capitalism works.
Let's continue the experiment by widening the scope of the money trail. How about an even bigger number? 45 million abortions have been performed in this country. At $5,000 a piece, that's $225 BILLION. But I'm sure you're right. It's not that much money. Let's say that it's only...$100 Billion? That's still a lot of money. And obviously, we're talking about more than 3 doctors now if we're widening the scope to all procedures performed. Yet still, that's enough money to support an entire industry of doctors for more than a hundred years. There would be abortion doctors on the Fortune 500! They would be driving high-priced Italian sports cars and sailing around the world on giant yachts! So this idea that people are getting rich off of abortions is unsustainable. It is NOT the big money maker that you claim it is, and you can prove that out by looking at which fields of the medical industry newly graduated doctors go into, and what the salaries of those positions are.
Abortion is not the big money making enterprise that you claim it to be. Agreed?
My "attitude" if being formed by YOU and everything you're spewing. That is the "new damage" that you've spawed. I come here for guidance on this issue, seeking a better understanding of the situation, and instead I read hate speech, find people supporting terrorism on their own citizens, and religious sentiment that is a complete bastardization of the faith they clutch so desparately. My "side"? I didn't have one before I got here, but if I had to choose, it certainly wouldn't be YOURS. You've made sure of that.
So thank you. You've been a big help.

reply from: faithman

Look, I'm sure Ms. McArdle is quite an intelligent woman, but her points are summarily unfounded. Committing murder to accomplish one's goal in this country is not comparable to what is going on in Palestine, and I would ask you not to cloud the issue. (Yes, let's have a debate about abortion rights AND the Mid East peace process at the same time. Yes, yes....) Bottom line is, no one in this country gets to force you or I to agree with them based on fear or terror. That's a crime, and its something we should all be able to agree on.
I think the analogy with the Palestinians is quite proper.
Ok, please explain your position then. Otherwise, I can only conclude that you condone murder.
Ok, the logic here makes no sense. First, you say that the abortion business is a "big money making enterprise". Then I sarcastically rib you by saying that there all these abortion doctors who can't wait to get out of med school, which you gloss over, probably because you got the joke and know that that is not the case. But then you latch on to my $5,000 figure and multiply it by the number of procedures Dr. Tiller performed, and conclude that $300 million is WAY too much money for Dr. Tiller to have made. But now you have a dilemma, because you believe that the enterprise is vast and profitable. You can't have it both ways. What if Dr. Tiller's lifetime revenue were half that $300 figure? $150 million? Or even $50 million? Pick your number. In the end, if, as you say, he had the market, he be rich beyond his wildest dreams. And we clearly know that not to be the case. And we should also mention another major flaw in the logic. If this type of procedure really was a "money maker", other people would see how much money Dr. Tiller was making and want a piece of it. That's how capitalism works.
Let's continue the experiment by widening the scope of the money trail. How about an even bigger number? 45 million abortions have been performed in this country. At $5,000 a piece, that's $225 BILLION. But I'm sure you're right. It's not that much money. Let's say that it's only...$100 Billion? That's still a lot of money. And obviously, we're talking about more than 3 doctors now if we're widening the scope to all procedures performed. Yet still, that's enough money to support an entire industry of doctors for more than a hundred years. There would be abortion doctors on the Fortune 500! They would be driving high-priced Italian sports cars and sailing around the world on giant yachts! So this idea that people are getting rich off of abortions is unsustainable. It is NOT the big money maker that you claim it is, and you can prove that out by looking at which fields of the medical industry newly graduated doctors go into, and what the salaries of those positions are.
Abortion is not the big money making enterprise that you claim it to be. Agreed?
My "attitude" if being formed by YOU and everything you're spewing. That is the "new damage" that you've spawed. I come here for guidance on this issue, seeking a better understanding of the situation, and instead I read hate speech, find people supporting terrorism on their own citizens, and religious sentiment that is a complete bastardization of the faith they clutch so desparately. My "side"? I didn't have one before I got here, but if I had to choose, it certainly wouldn't be YOURS. You've made sure of that.
So thank you. You've been a big help.
If they can be pushed away, they never were for the womb child in the first place. I don't stand because of some phony bolonie personality cult "leader", in the pro-life bowel movement. I stand for the womb child because I believe it to be right. I am led by personal conviction alone. If the weak hearted walk away, that is on them, not me. And what you pro-death punks know full well, and scares the baby blood poluted fecal matter out of you, is the very oposite may be true. I just very well might be the voice of true prolifers who have been beaten down by the voices of false leaders. I have no position to defend, and I do not make a living off of this, so I have no pay check to protect. All my resources, and all my efforts go into IAAP [click the blue text in my signature]. I hope and pray for a peacful end to this mess, and have spent thousands of dollars, and invested untold hours to that end. But I will never condemn those who have the courage to take action that says the womb child is worthy of the same protection as all innocent persons deserve. There is one less deadly enemy, who will never suck brains from the skulls of children. I believe that is a good thing. If the phonies want to run from that, good redance. We are better off with out them. I have always encouraged people to follow their own heart on this issue, and that I would serve anyone with IAAP material that requested it. I stand alone, and claim to be no ones leader but my own. I am not here to polish the image of a failed "movement". I am here to fight for the innocent womb child, and spare them from evil blood thristy pro-death punks like you. I could really care less if anyone follows me or not. You are talking to the wrong somebody if you think I care what borthead scum has to say, or what weak hearted "prolifers" with personal agendas think or do.

reply from: Banned Member

You are *****ing feable. You are really ignorant. I'm shocked, & I don't surprise easily.
These women were not tramps, you *****ing fool, these were grieving women who had to have a LTA. Some probably didn't even have an LTA...You have heard of stillborns, right. If a child dies in the womb, you still have to deliver it.
*****ing twat.

reply from: Yuuki

Where does the list end?
1. They were whores and having a baby would slow them down
2. They wanted to "legally" kill something
3. They were weak minded and other people told them it was okay
4. It was a convenient way to avoid a responsibility
5. It's "cool" to have an abortion
6. "Dr." Tiller said it was okay
7. They needed a new reason to hate themselves
8. They were concerned about overpopulating the world......
.........
............
...............
The REAL reasons you jacka$$, not your lying, hateful, anti-woman interpretation of the facts.

reply from: faithman

You are *****ing feable. You are really ignorant. I'm shocked, & I don't surprise easily.
These women were not tramps, you *****ing fool, these were grieving women who had to have a LTA. Some probably didn't even have an LTA...You have heard of stillborns, right. If a child dies in the womb, you still have to deliver it.
*****ing twat.
those were the exceptions, not the rule. Tiller the killer slaughtered perfectly healthy children for non medical reasons almost every time he stepped into his clinic. He then plastered the nieborhood around his clinic with the ash, and stench, of burning babies out the smoke stack of the furnace he disposed their bodies in.

reply from: CDC700

Where does the list end?
1. They were whores and having a baby would slow them down
2. They wanted to "legally" kill something
3. They were weak minded and other people told them it was okay
4. It was a convenient way to avoid a responsibility
5. It's "cool" to have an abortion
6. "Dr." Tiller said it was okay
7. They needed a new reason to hate themselves
8. They were concerned about overpopulating the world......
.........
............
...............
The REAL reasons you jacka$$, not your lying, hateful, anti-woman interpretation of the facts.
Those are REAL reasons. And I happen to Love REAL women, Not the slimy wenches that somehow consider authorizing the murder of their unborn a way to make a "woman" more powerful. And I fail to see where I was lying, but that's probably something you throw out at anyone that sees you for what you are.

reply from: galen

CP i too have know abortion providers, and for the most part by the time i had retired last year they had quit.
only 1 thought he had the best intrests of women in mind... the rest could not get a job doing anything else .. usually because of past run ins w/ the board.
While most people are not intrinsically evil i'll have you look at my sig one more time...i've left it alone for almost a year because i truly believe these quotes.

reply from: Banned Member

The voice of reason from the Pro-Life side!! Thank You!

reply from: faithman

your endorsement proves he is a false voice. There is no middle ground with womb child killing.

reply from: yoda

Oh gee, and I thought, according to Fara, that only "bad prolifers" used such words!
Where are you now, Fara?????

reply from: yoda

your endorsement proves he is a false voice. There is no middle ground with womb child killing.
I don't know a single abortionist personally, and I hope I never do. I hope I never get within 100 feet of one.
Just like I don't know any serial child molesters, any serial killers, or any genocidal maniacs. And I don't want to know them.

reply from: churchmouse

I love this post.
I too find it disturbing. I wonder if they show the woman the skull or do they keep that hidden.
I want to cry. I just want to cry when I think of it. I want to hit the wall, something because this tears me apart. I cant stand it. When I think what goes on I want to scream.
I am a Christian but I am human and I am emotional. I am passionate about the unborn in the womb. I am struggling, not with my faith, but the happiness and joy I feel that Tiller is dead. God help me forgive me for saying this.....I know I am not a good witness in saying it but I am glad he is dead. I dont condone murder, but I am glad that bastard is dead.
So judge me you have that right.
joueravecfou you are just warped.....warped.
I AM GLAD HE IS DEAD.
He did not vote to help the unborn that makes it through a botched abortion. If he did could you provide the evidence. Show me that he voted "yes" for a medical doctor to help the born baby.
Lets not call them names, but lets analyze what type of person would get a late term abortion. What kind of person in this case woman, would walk in and let a doctor suck their unborns brains out with a pair of scissors. Would you call them honorable, compassionate, sweet, godly? What?
I aborted and today I look back and would classify myself as a monster. I obviously did not research abortion, I did not care. Didnt know about fetal develpment but I offer that as no excuse. I was a horrible selfless person.
But to walk into a clinic stomach swollen, baby been moving around....viability there....and let the doctor dismember and mutilate a child is barbaric.
I would call them MONSTERS.
No woman would go to Tiller if their baby was alread dead. He kills. A woman who has already lost a baby could go to any hospital. If these womens lives were in danger, if the baby was dead, they would not be at Tillers office.
Women went to him TO KILL.
And Concerned I do NOT CONSIDER ANY doctor that would kill for a living normal. You say Tiller could have made more money doing other things......please. He was a millionaire.
Its amazing that you are now defending him. Unbelievable.
I see abortion as evil, obviously you don't. You would settle for a middle ground, but does that help the ones being killed? No.
Was slavery evil? People finally stood up with force against those that thought owning AND ABUSING people was ok.
Middle ground........NO WAY. Was there a middle ground with slavery? And its about time that people stood up against abortion. NOT BY KILLING......but by demanding justice.
Abortion is an evil.......if you are passionate there is no middle ground.

reply from: faithman

I too find it disturbing. I wonder if they show the woman the skull or do they keep that hidden.
I want to cry. I just want to cry when I think of it. I want to hit the wall, something because this tears me apart. I cant stand it. When I think what goes on I want to scream.
I am a Christian but I am human and I am emotional. I am passionate about the unborn in the womb. I am struggling, not with my faith, but the happiness and joy I feel that Tiller is dead. God help me forgive me for saying this.....I know I am not a good witness in saying it but I am glad he is dead. I dont condone murder, but I am glad that bastard is dead.
So judge me you have that right.
joueravecfou you are just warped.....warped.
I AM GLAD HE IS DEAD.
He did not vote to help the unborn that makes it through a botched abortion. If he did could you provide the evidence. Show me that he voted "yes" for a medical doctor to help the born baby.
Lets not call them names, but lets analyze what type of person would get a late term abortion. What kind of person in this case woman, would walk in and let a doctor suck their unborns brains out with a pair of scissors. Would you call them honorable, compassionate, sweet, godly? What?
I aborted and today I look back and would classify myself as a monster. I obviously did not research abortion, I did not care. Didnt know about fetal develpment but I offer that as no excuse. I was a horrible selfless person.
But to walk into a clinic stomach swollen, baby been moving around....viability there....and let the doctor dismember and mutilate a child is barbaric.
I would call them MONSTERS.
No woman would go to Tiller if their baby was alread dead. He kills. A woman who has already lost a baby could go to any hospital. If these womens lives were in danger, if the baby was dead, they would not be at Tillers office.
Women went to him TO KILL.
And Concerned I do NOT CONSIDER ANY doctor that would kill for a living normal. You say Tiller could have made more money doing other things......please. He was a millionaire.
Its amazing that you are now defending him. Unbelievable.
I see abortion as evil, obviously you don't. You would settle for a middle ground, but does that help the ones being killed? No.
Was slavery evil? People finally stood up with force against those that thought owning AND ABUSING people was ok.
Middle ground........NO WAY. Was there a middle ground with slavery? And its about time that people stood up against abortion. NOT BY KILLING......but by demanding justice.
Abortion is an evil.......if you are passionate there is no middle ground.
Whether you like it or not, it was the lack of justice that provokes such acts. It has been that way since humans have been on the earth. unfortunantly we can expect this things to escalate. I wish they would just destroy the clinics, but they tried that with Tiller, and he kept right on killing. He was wounded 16 years ago, and kept right on killing. He was brought to justice, bought justice off with his blood money, and kept on killing. I morn the loss of his life and soul. But I am glad that a deadly enemy of the womb child no longer sucks the brains out of baby skulls. Like the burning of sodom, this is a witness to all doctors not to follow in his foot steps. Young doctors are not entering the "trade" because they don't want to follow the career path that includes a flack jacket. Condemn me if you must? but that is a good thing.

reply from: sk1bianca

there's something that some people here keep forgetting.
tiller KILLED babies (he call them babies himself, so let's not argue about it...). he did it thousands of times. it was his job and he liked it. he could have done something else for a living. plastic surgery, for example. he would have made much more money. still, he chose to "help" women by stabbing their children's head with scissors and sucking their brains out.
ya know what? PP was right. the guy's a hero. killing defenseless babies is an act of bravery and heroism.

reply from: faithman

What a dignified line of work, HUH? Makes you wonder what they served at his church On pot luck night. Wouldn't want to go there if he was supplying the meat.

reply from: spidey

Faithman, I read your post the first time, but chose not to respond because you couldn't spell "bologna" correctly. But oh, hey! You double posted by copying and pasting! Clever. I guess I should respond? Ok.
You basically said four things a multiple times, and one damning statement that exposes you as a terrorist sympathizer. First the repetitive stuff:
1. The "We're Better Off Without Them" theme
That's fine, so long as you realize that with that attitude, at some point, as more and more people leave the barn, there are going to be more people outside than with you on the inside. You had a chance to educate me and show me your compassion. Instead, you have pushed your hatred on me. Your loss, because as you can see, I am clearly not afraid to speak my mind. And as your base shrinks to the minority, your position will be marginalized even more, forcing you to resort to more and more violent acts. There's a reason that anti-abortion criminals make the FBI's 'Most Wanted' list. It's because they choose a path not supported by the society they live in, and they are branded as a threat.
2. The "I'm All Alone" theme
I know, I know, "bologna" sounds NOTHING like how it's written, I'll give you that. Alternatively, I would've accepted "baloney"; more an urban dictionary jargon term, really. But you get no points for "bolonie". Sorry. But thank you for clarifying your personal conviction on this issues. And again. And again. And again....
3. The "Here's What I Believe" theme
I get it. You're fanatically Pro-Life. Good for you. Too bad you couldn't teach me a little more about your position. Oh wait, that's right, you don't need me, because you stand alone, and you know you're right. Got it. Moving on....
4. The "Dollar Dollar Bills Y'All" theme
This is sad, because you've spent all this money to not care about attracting other people to your cause, and you'd rather be alone, why draw attention to yourself in the first place? And why draw attention from people like me, who see all this hate speech and come to the conclusion that you're to be dealt with like a crazy person? That's the take-away here, ok? That's what I'm seeing. That's what others are seeing. And you're not changing that. But you don't care, do you? You know you're right. Well, at least you're out there spending money. That's good for our economy. Thanks!
So those were the four things that only made you kinda wonky in my eyes. But I still had no problem with you (well, besides "bolonie"- c'mon!). But then you said this:
But I will never condemn those who have the courage to take action that says the womb child is worthy of the same protection as all innocent persons deserve. There is one less deadly enemy, who will never suck brains from the skulls of children. I believe that [the assassination of Dr. Tiller] is a good thing.
Oops.
You just went from a wonk to a radical. You are now in 'Ku Klux Klan' territory. You have become like the Taliban. You are condoning assassination and supporting a criminal act. You are a terrorist sympathizer when you refer to Dr. Tiller as an "enemy". You know what we do to people that we label 'enemy sympathizers 'in other countries? We shoot them.
I have zero compassion for those with your attitude. This is, what? The eighth assassination of an abortion doctor in this country? The 17th attempt? And you openly support this. You cheer this man's death. This is what I've learned from you. This is the heart of the matter. You and many others here and elsewhere support murder. I now imagine that there is a shadow terrorist group in this country that openly wants to murder other citizens. And that makes me mad as hell.
I came to learn and with no opinion whatsoever about this issue. I wanted to learn about your cause and why it was important to you.
But what I've learned is that you assassinate your own citizens. You wish hate on your fellow man. You have radicalized ME in the wrong way, because now all I want to do is camp outside abortion clinics and pick off all the anti-abortion protesters. Seems only fair, right? You've created the "enemy". I am more than happy to oblige. How does that sound? Hmm?

reply from: yoda

Yes, and I'll bet you have some ocean front property in Arizona, right?
Now you reveal your true self.......
You totally ignore the "assassination" of millions of babies every year by men and women like Tiller, and obsess over this one killing. And then, you threaten to murder prolifers. Very, very clear now that you always were, and probably always will be a proabort, and you're probably a baby killer to boot.

reply from: faithman

That's fine, so long as you realize that with that attitude, at some point, as more and more people leave the barn, there are going to be more people outside than with you on the inside. You had a chance to educate me and show me your compassion. Instead, you have pushed your hatred on me. Your loss, because as you can see, I am clearly not afraid to speak my mind. And as your base shrinks to the minority, your position will be marginalized even more, forcing you to resort to more and more violent acts. There's a reason that anti-abortion criminals make the FBI's 'Most Wanted' list. It's because they choose a path not supported by the society they live in, and they are branded as a threat.
2. The "I'm All Alone" theme
I know, I know, "bologna" sounds NOTHING like how it's written, I'll give you that. Alternatively, I would've accepted "baloney"; more an urban dictionary jargon term, really. But you get no points for "bolonie". Sorry. But thank you for clarifying your personal conviction on this issues. And again. And again. And again....
3. The "Here's What I Believe" theme
I get it. You're fanatically Pro-Life. Good for you. Too bad you couldn't teach me a little more about your position. Oh wait, that's right, you don't need me, because you stand alone, and you know you're right. Got it. Moving on....
4. The "Dollar Dollar Bills Y'All" theme
This is sad, because you've spent all this money to not care about attracting other people to your cause, and you'd rather be alone, why draw attention to yourself in the first place? And why draw attention from people like me, who see all this hate speech and come to the conclusion that you're to be dealt with like a crazy person? That's the take-away here, ok? That's what I'm seeing. That's what others are seeing. And you're not changing that. But you don't care, do you? You know you're right. Well, at least you're out there spending money. That's good for our economy. Thanks!
So those were the four things that only made you kinda wonky in my eyes. But I still had no problem with you (well, besides "bolonie"- c'mon!). But then you said this:
But I will never condemn those who have the courage to take action that says the womb child is worthy of the same protection as all innocent persons deserve. There is one less deadly enemy, who will never suck brains from the skulls of children. I believe that [the assassination of Dr. Tiller] is a good thing.
Oops.
You just went from a wonk to a radical. You are now in 'Ku Klux Klan' territory. You have become like the Taliban. You are condoning assassination and supporting a criminal act. You are a terrorist sympathizer when you refer to Dr. Tiller as an "enemy". You know what we do to people that we label 'enemy sympathizers 'in other countries? We shoot them.
I have zero compassion for those with your attitude. This is, what? The eighth assassination of an abortion doctor in this country? The 17th attempt? And you openly support this. You cheer this man's death. This is what I've learned from you. This is the heart of the matter. You and many others here and elsewhere support killing. I now imagine that there is a shadow terrorist group in this country that openly wants to murder other citizens. And that makes me mad as hell.
I came to learn and with no opinion whatsoever about this issue. I wanted to learn about your cause and why it was important to you.
But what I've learned is that you assassinate your own citizens. You wish hate on your fellow man. You have radicalized ME in the wrong way, because now all I want to do is camp outside abortion clinics and pick off all the anti-abortion protesters. Seems only fair, right? You've created the "enemy". I am more than happy to oblige. How does that sound? Hmm?
You were already a radical borthead before you came here. You fool no one. Then you say "you and many others", after you admonish me that I am emptying out the barn. You are nothing more than a scum bag planned parenthood shill, and probly are posting from a computer form PP central. I am glad I made a punk like you mad. If you plan to hang around, get use to it. Scum bags like you usually stay mad all the time anyway. That is on you maggot. I have heard all your covert borthead trash before. you are either pro-life because it is right, or a low life scum bag maggot punk, that is drunk on baby blood because you are evil. I have nothing to do with either. You are what you are by your own "choice". I have nothing to do with it. So slither back under rock baby killer. we have seen your type here before.

reply from: spidey

Seriously? That's all you got? Just more filth? I throw down for you, and you don't even try to address the issue? Don't even try to stand by your claims? You just bash me and call me names? *laugh* I guess that's the most I could hope for. Oh well. Call me whatever makes you feel superior. I won't get upset. I'm only here because I wanted to understand why Dr. Tiller was assassinated and what some of the underlying reasons were. You've been a great help. Thanks.

reply from: faithman

Tiller was stopped from sucking the brains out of childrens skulls. whether it was the best way or not is irelevant. The thing is he will soon rest under a dirt quilt, and never kill another child. Condemn me if you must, but that is a good thing.

reply from: spidey

Hi yodavater,
First let me start by asking, do you need any definitions for the words in my post? I know how you love to play that game.
Yes, and I'll bet you have some ocean front property in Arizona, right?
Ha! You made a funny. But I have no reason to lie about my purpose for joining this forum. What? I have some master plan going on here?? I'm going to convert you over to my "side"?? *laugh* C'mon, you should know better than that. No, I heard about Dr. Tiller's assassination, and wanted to understand the two sides of the issue. But man, you gotta admit, you make nazis look like choir boys! Your passion for this issue is rather strong, but you can't articulate why it's important for people like me to care. So all you can do is to support terrorism in this country. That's all I can see. That's all you'll let me see.
Oh? You don't see how your words could cause that much hatred in return? Now who's revealing their true self.
Correct. Because in certain parts of this country, it's not against the law to have this medical procedure performed, but it IS illegal everywhere in this country to murder a man in cold blood. So the law happens to agree with my argument, even if I disagree with abortion altogether. You see the problem? The "'assassination' of millions of babies every year" is not why I am on this forum. It's a separate issue altogether. If you want to debate that, well, I can't help you, because I wish there was never another abortion performed.
Oh c'mon. I threaten you, you assassinate doctors, it's all good, right? Or maybe you don't like it when I hold the mirror up to your face and you see the hatred in your soul. *shrug* You clearly recognize it when it's coming at you, although you fail to see that it is a reflection. Interesting.

reply from: JPRice

No offense, but anyone who attempts to perpetuate the accusation of "infanticide" against Obama is either an idiot or a liar, and can't expect to be taken seriously.
You have the floor. Too bad you name call instead of contributing anything substantive to the debate. Do you have some link we can read? The nurse story came out as well about how they could not care for an infant born in Illinois.
Why do you think he was protested so vehemently for coming to Notre Dame? Even heckled during his speech?
No offense, but this matter is widely quoted. You have no back up yourself.
http://obamawantsyou.com/abortionsanction.html

Spinoff site, true from some firm anti-abortion outfit, does not mean it is not so.
----------------
Baby Sarah http://www.dr-tiller.com/dreaded-complication.htm

reply from: spidey

I know. You've already said that. And still, you condemn yourself. You support people that foster terrorism within our borders and freely choose to murder our fellow citizens. If you choose to overlook that, your claim that anyone who overlooks the death of an unborn child is rendered irrelevant. That is the logic you have pigeon-holed yourself into, and I'm sorry if that upsets you or if you don't see it. But there it is.

reply from: JPRice

Why do you quote Martin Luther King? Did he call people idiots?
Thank goodness his neice works for Priests for Life.

reply from: yoda

You're not a very good liar. No one can articulate why anyone else should "care" about an issue, that's a matter of conscience. Need a definition?
And of course, you can't be bothered to point out where I've supported terrorism, can you? Like I said, ocean front property in Arizona.........
No, I do not. YOU have read my words, do they make YOU want to hate anyone? (other than me, of course).
You seek to intimidate me and other prolifers from exercising our first amendment rights by alleging that some sort of violence will result from our speaking our minds. You will not silence me.
So you totally base your "morality" on the letter of the law? My, you'd have made a great slave owner in the antebellum south, did you know that? Or how about a Jew hunter in Nazi Germany? They ALL obeyed the letter of the law, didn't they?
That "separate issue" is the reason for the existence of this forum, period.
More ocean front property, eh? You don't seem to give a rat's patootie if every unborn child in the world dies tomorrow, so where does this mysterious "wish" come from?
More ocean front property...... you know damn well you are lying through your teeth, and yet you keep on typing....... if we all killed abortionists, there wouldn't be any left. Only six have ever been killed by people opposed to abortion, so how do you calculate the math?

reply from: churchmouse

spidey.......Obviously you spend more time concentrating on spell and grammar check than on subject content.
Well what is important is to be on the side that is right, the side that speaks the truth. Obviously you think that the more people that think something is right, must make it right.
If I have to stand alone then I stand alone but at least I am doing the right think and standing up for what I believe is right and aligned with Gods Word.
You can't educate yourself?
You are new here, only eleven posts. I don't know of one person on here that is afraid or will back down on their beliefs. We are not afraid. Feel free to speak your mind because we certainly do. You cetain do not know Faithman..... He can hold his own. LOL
And he is fanatically pro-life like most of us, he has his style we have ours. Its to bad you condone killing, you are the violent one.
Know what I personally think?....I think you are a whacko, a nutcase, a psycho. I think you are on here because you have no moral compass and you want to stick it to those who do. You try to be clever with your words but you are lame, a joke.
You did not come here to learn, you came here to taunt those who actually love the unborn.

reply from: Faramir

His "style" is cruel, abusive, and hateful, and he praises murderers.
I say "no thanks" to having him on our side, so please don't include me as one of the bunch if it includes him, thank you.

reply from: yoda

And you whine like a four year old, but so what?
And of course, he doesn't want you on his side either, so I'd say you two are about even steven on that issue.

reply from: JPRice

CP:
Fact Check is Annenberg, Beliefnet wow!
You may be right, but all this is what is called dancing around the issue.

reply from: CDC700

How so? The charge of "infanticide" actually means Obama wants to murder born infants, which is a real stretch. There are plenty of points on which Obama can legitimately be criticized without exaggerated presumptions.
Well, he certainly doesn't want to SAVE any unborn babies!

reply from: JPRice

Ok, I will investigate this matter Concerned Parent.
By the way, I have come to this forum for over a year but did not register until this latest event in Wichita. I check OR about every day.
Fact Check is also part of the Birth Certificate kerfuffle, Birthees don't trust the Annenberg Foundation that is connected with it. They call that website pro-Obama.

reply from: sheri

CP, what leads you to think aborted babies are infrequently left to die, and you seemed to be saying that to let them die quickly would be better then giving them the care that may proliong their lives, to keep them from suffering.

reply from: JPRice

Obama doesn't help his position when he said he wouldn't want his daughters "punished with a baby", so I'm sympathetic in some ways that one might have reason to defend Obama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNzmly28Bmg No reason to go to youtube, I guess this is the clip where he said this.
I live in Minneapolis, one can take light rail down town and I haven't been down there since the election actually, but you've got the hoods and sometimes they sing rap music lyrics using the "n" word and it was offensive.
But since the election, I have not seen much of this kind of behavior. I am very sorry if African Americans have been disenfranchised in society. It really sounds like you are just trying to defend him. I respect that.
St. Paul/Minneapolis really is a rather low crime zone compared to other cities I have seen, Dallas, Chicago and I know how it is down south and in parts of Florida. I've seen DC. I went to DC with a group of young men from Africa even, a soccer team. I was an assistant to the team. However, I can not get by things that Obama has said.

reply from: Faramir

I was disgusted by that comment too, but when I saw it in its entire context, I don't think he was referring to abortion, but to sex education and birth control.

reply from: JPRice

I don't know, he walks the walk and he talks the talk.
Forgetting Sotomayor, we can't quite know her sentiments.
My gosh, Sibelius is a croney of Tiller. I think Obama came out real strong against the shooting of Abortion doctor Tiller. Why did he not come out as strongly on the shooting death of the Army recruiter in Arkansas?
See, this seems to be more on Obama. I think Sibelius is probably rotten and he selected her to be Secretary of Health (If I have that correct). Sibelius may have even helped Tiller evade justice in KS. Pitiful. One more domino.
No, too much on Obama. This is horrible.
Call me an idiot! That's fine. Obama appears absolutely despicable on the issue.

reply from: yoda

Maybe it's because of his "Moslem heritage" that he keeps talking about?

reply from: 4choice4all

He attended a UCC church and apparently my church is the anti-christ.

reply from: faithman

Ths UCC is not Christian. It is a front organization for secular humanism. The criminal elect was raised by his unitarian universalist grand parents, which is the fountain head of modern secular humanism. He went to a secular humanist university, Harvard. The signers of the first humanist manifesto were both UU's, and connected to Harvard for the most part. One of the major tennants of the humanist manifesto, is to destroy the christian church. Many Planned Parenthood upaty ups, have also recieved the humanist of the year award. The modern abortion movement is stuck to secular humanism with the blood of womb children. It is no suprise, that our unconstitutiuonal president hates the christian faith, and is a big pal of planned parenthood.

reply from: JPRice

Obama said "we are not a Christian nation" not long ago and now, didn't he just say we were one of the largest "Muslim Nations?"
Too much of all this.

reply from: churchmouse

Faramir geeze oh petes. I said we all have our styles I was not bashing any particular person.
His vote was to NOT save a child born from a botched abortion.
This is what Obama said. "This is what he said. "As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child - however way you want to describe it - is now outside the mother's womb and the doctor continues to think that it's nonviable but there's, let's say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead, that, in fact, they would then have to call a second physician to monitor and check off and make sure that this is not a live child that could be saved.'
National Review
Washington Post Fact Checker
This is why he voted the way he did. If he was against it he would have voted against it.
" Pam Sutherland ... of ... Illinois Planned Parenthood ... told ABC News, "We worked with him specifically on his strategy. The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive.' They put these bills out all the time ... because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats. ..."
Obamas voting record.
SB-230 - Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act - Present
HB-382 - Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act - Present
HB-1900 - Parental Notice of Abortion Act - Present
SB-562 - Parental Notice of Abortion Act - Present
HB-1093 - Law to Protect Live Born Children - Present
HB-1094 - Bill to Protect Children Born as a Result of an Induced Labor Abortion - Present
HB-1095 - Bill defining "born-alive infant" to include infant "born alive at any stage of development." - Present
SB-1662 - Born Alive Infant Protection Act - Judiciary Committee - No
SB-1662 - Born Alive Infant Protection Act - IL Senate Floor - No - Audio From Jill Stanek's Website
SB-1082 Born Alive Infant Protection Act - No
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59702
Obama said, "I just want to suggest ... that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny. Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a 9-month-old - child that was delivered to term. ... I mean, it - it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional."
Could you provide where you got this information? I would like to see the quote where Obama says this.
His position is clear by his voting record. If he wanted protection for the unborn that makes it through an abortion, he should have voted differently. He didnt.
First thing you said I have agreed with.
Uh boy......you said that naughty word Faithman........HUMANIST. Concerned is gonna come after ya now.
I love your post however.

reply from: yoda

You cannot shine the light of truth into closed eyes.

reply from: sander

You cannot shine the light of truth into closed eyes.
That's the truth....we've seen it here for years, haven't we yoda?

reply from: Yuuki

Maybe it's because of his "Moslem heritage" that he keeps talking about?
UMM, Obama is a Christian....
No he's not! He's a secret Muslim, and the anti-christ, and an alien, and he's specifically Xenu, freed from prison, and he's going to blow the world up in 2012 to kill the remaining Thetans, and he causes crops circles, and it was actually him who orchestrated 9/11 so Bush would look bad, and he spread all the rumors about Bush causing it. This is so he could be elected, and unify the middle east, and have them conquer America! From there, the world! And then blow it up, obviously.

reply from: faithman

Maybe it's because of his "Moslem heritage" that he keeps talking about?
UMM, Obama is a Christian....
No he's not! He's a secret Muslim, and the anti-christ, and an alien, and he's specifically Xenu, freed from prison, and he's going to blow the world up in 2012 to kill the remaining Thetans, and he causes crops circles, and it was actually him who orchestrated 9/11 so Bush would look bad, and he spread all the rumors about Bush causing it. This is so he could be elected, and unify the middle east, and have them conquer America! From there, the world! And then blow it up, obviously.
You need a new foil cap. We are reading your mind loud and clear. As a matter of fact, do us all a favor, and use a few more rolls this time UUUUUUUUWWWWEEEEEE. Very scary.

reply from: Yuuki

Sarcasm Faithman. Learn about it.


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