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Abortion and the Bible

Interesting Article

by: scopia19822

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-abortioninthebible.html

reply from: iCelebr8Life

Here is an argument that makes abortion neutral. I am not saying this is a valid argument, only that it is one that some people believe.
Man is created in the image of God. He is triune like the Godhead: soul (mind, will and intellect corresponding to the Father), body (physical corresponding to the Son), and spirit (corresponding to the Holy Spirit). Before God forms us in the womb, he knows us. Our spirits have a pre-existance. In Jewish Mysticism, the spirits are housed in the guf until they are born.. In Genesis, God created man out of the dust of the earth, God formed man's body. God then breathed into him "the breath of life" which is his spirit and then man became a living soul. When Adam took his first breath, his spirit was placed in him and he became a fully integrated soul, body spirit person.
Some say that God doesn't place the spirit into a person until the person is born and takes his first breath. So while abortion is ugly and to be avoided, the spirit and soul are spared by abortion and only the body are destroyed. God will put the spirit into another body. Yes, the soul will be different...but the spirit is the same spirit.
For Jews, if the life of the mother is threatened, then abortion is mandatory. It is a grave sin for a woman to risk her life to give birth, especially if she has other children. They see it as being easier for a woman to have another child than for the children to get another mother.
While I am a Christian and pro-life, I do see great problems with using religion as arguments against abortion. All someone has to do is have a different faith or beliefs and all the Bible and religious arguments are lost on that person.
It is enough for me to pray and encourage and inspire women to carry to term, even if they are pro-abortion. If I cannot change the mind about abortion, perhaps with the help of God their hearts can be softened so even if they are pro-choice, or pro-abortion they will choose life for their baby.

reply from: 4choice4all

I'm a woman of faith...I was moved to become an escort while in church. Our clinic often has counter protesters(peaceful presence) from the local seminary. My good friend is a methodist minister. Our community is full of people of faith that are prochoice. I went to the bible with an open mind and heart and found nothing contradictory to my feelings on abortion...and I'm not alone. I think it's a stretch to say that the bible is for or against abortion.

reply from: Yuuki

I don't believe God approves of electively slaughtering children in the womb. He could certainly understand a woman saving her own life, but he would not approve of her aborting because she is afraid and thinks there's no help. He wouldn't condemn her, but he would view it as a lesson she failed. That's how I feel anyway. An unexpected pregnancy shouldn't result in the death of a child.

reply from: faithman

I'm a woman of faith...I was moved to become an escort while in church. Our clinic often has counter protesters(peaceful presence) from the local seminary. My good friend is a methodist minister. Our community is full of people of faith that are prochoice. I went to the bible with an open mind and heart and found nothing contradictory to my feelings on abortion...and I'm not alone. I think it's a stretch to say that the bible is for or against abortion.
all who believe that low life scumbag baby killers are false christians, raise your http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby12.html [click blue hands for results.

reply from: nancyu

http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby1.html
http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby4.html
http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby3.html

reply from: faithman

http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby1.html
http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby4.html
http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby3.html
It's bloody unanimus!!

reply from: Faramir

all who believe that low life scumbag baby killers are false christians, raise your http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby12.html [click blue hands for results.
All who believe that Christians should not use vile and abusive language, raise your hands please.
BTW, what is the difference between a "false" Christian and a Christian who is a sinner?

reply from: 4choice4all

Yukki....I think an unintended unwanted pregnancy is a complete sign of failure. It should never get to that.

reply from: faithman

But if it does, your little snooty scancy self is all good with http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby10.html

reply from: Yuuki

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?

reply from: Faramir

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
I don't agree that an unintened pregnancy is a sign of failure--unwanted is sign of something, though.
But Mary did have a choice.

reply from: faithman

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
I don't agree that an unintened pregnancy is a sign of failure--unwanted is sign of something, though.
But Mary did have a choice.
Last I checked, the angel asked, and Mary agreed. How could that be unintended?

reply from: Faramir

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
I don't agree that an unintened pregnancy is a sign of failure--unwanted is sign of something, though.
But Mary did have a choice.
Last I checked, the angel asked, and Mary agreed. How could that be unintended?
I didn't mean that it was.
I was responding to Yuuki, who seemed to have that idea.
Mary was not forced to be the Mother of our Lord, but responded with, "Be it done to me according to thy will," so it was most definately an intended and planned pregnancy.

reply from: Yuuki

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
I don't agree that an unintened pregnancy is a sign of failure--unwanted is sign of something, though.
But Mary did have a choice.
Unwanted is the mother's failure, not God's. The unexpected pregnancy is part of his plan; the mother deciding it is unwanted is her failing.

reply from: Yuuki

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
I don't agree that an unintened pregnancy is a sign of failure--unwanted is sign of something, though.
But Mary did have a choice.
Last I checked, the angel asked, and Mary agreed. How could that be unintended?
It was unexpected for HER. SHE wasn't planning on becoming pregnant or being offered to become pregnant. And who would say no to an Angel?

reply from: 4choice4all

God is control and God has a plan....does that mean even when we get cancer it's part of God's plan for us? Is chemo trying to circumvent God's plan?

reply from: Shenanigans

Corinthians 6:19-20, "Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Meaning the woman and the child within her belong to God. Do you think it honours God when a woman slaughters her unborn child for her own desires? Do you really think Jesus suffered and died on a plank of wood so women could kill children that The Lord loves so dearly?

reply from: Shenanigans

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
Not to mention, Mary wasn't married at the time... and according to some historians she was 13!

reply from: 4choice4all

Well..unless you think we have 1million potential second comings a year...I don't know that the birth of Christ is a good comparison for well...anything.

reply from: Shenanigans

You are going by the argument that God actively gives cancer.
There are in place certain biological and scientific laws that if God were to circumvent would void our need for faith. The cells in the body are rebelling, via mutation or a mishap at a cellular level, God does not cause this, the body's imperfect way does (the wages of sin is death and all that).
Chemo doesn't interfer with God's plan, God simply takes the circumstances we give Him to reach a certain point. My friend's father smoked life a freight train. He wasn't a practising Christian at the time he was diagnoised with terminal lung cancer. He found God and two days later he was dead. God's plan wasn't to intend him to start smoking, it wasn't God's plan to give him Cancer, it wasn't God's plan for him to die. It was God's actions that changed his heart and bought him to eternal life.

reply from: 4choice4all

No..I'm responding to the argument that God actively impregnates.
If pregnancy is God's plan and abortion circumvents that...then I question cancer also being part of God's plan and whether chemo circumvents it? I'm responding to the notion that abortion is rebelling against God's wishes.
The logic would say smoking is deadly, you should not smoke, God puts this cancer in your plan to bring you closer to him.
So unprotected/unchaste sex is immoral, you should have sex unless it's within marriage and for procreation, God puts this pregnancy in your plan to bring you closer.
If you try to circumvent the cancer by riding yourself of it...your suffering might not bring you to God..you are rebelling.
If you try to circumvent the pregnancy by riding yourself of it...your suffering might not bring you to God...you are rebelling.
yes? no? maybe?

reply from: Shenanigans

This is where it gets complicated.
God doesn't intentionally will pregnancy upon people. If He did every sexual act, contraception use or not, will end in pregnancy. As the biological point of sex is pregnancy, and using the bible's comment about "go fourth and multiply" would imply that God wants every sexual act to result in a pregnancy.
God has a plan for every outcome for every person, but we have free choice, we can use it to glorify God and submit to His plan or we can use it for our own purpose and ignore God's purpose.
God has a plan for every child concieved, that plan will only go ahead if we accept it.
God doesn't plan pregnancy for every sexual act. That happens biologically indepedant of God. Killing the unborn child will prevent God's plan for that child, but that's not what makes abortion wrong, what makes aboriton wrong is that it is killing a human child.
So, say woman x has sex. Woman x falls pregnant. Child x is planned by God to cure cancer or eat the most pies in a minute. Woman x does not know the mind of God nor follows any particular faith, so aborts child x, God's plan to cure cancer via child x will not transpire because of woman x's action.
Its like murder. God dose not plan for someone to murder another. The other person who is murdered will be dead and thus unable to complete the plan God has laid for their life.
God knows everything, he knows that victim will be murdered but there is still a plan in place.
God has given us choice, woman x and the murderer used their choice for their own benefit, not taking into account God's plan. Sometimes we suffer because of the choices of others, sometimes the choices of others will directly impact on our lives and on the plan God has crafted for each individiual. Every choice we make we must answer for to God when we die. A woman who aborts must answer to God for the child tehy have killed. I must answer to God for the bad crap I've pulled in my life, and YOU must answer to God for all the woman you walked into a building with the sole intent of killing a child God has a plan for.
What will you say to the master of all, the creator of Life, on your day of meeting Him?
We are human. Our minds are like a mouse fart in the wind compared to God's, I'd really like to see how abortionists explain to the Almighty their rationale for killing unborn lives.
You will be held to a higher acount because by your own admission you claim to be Christian, you're supposed to know better!
Then why would God want to give you a deadly disease to bring you closer to Him? Why not send you a smoking cessation nurse? It was through carefully placed conversation and gentle information and an open ear that I managed to get my smoking flat mate to stop! (I'm currently working on the new flat mate we have who smokes).
Smoking causes damage biologically to your body through the inhalation of nasty chemicals. God doesn't reach down while you're sleeping and shove His finger down your throat to mess up your innards.
So by that logic, are those who are unable to concieve are not intended by God to be close to Him?
Sex out of wedlock is immoral because it goes against what God laid out in the bible.
See, here's the thing, God isn't an idiot. Its like a parent who says to their children "don't play on the road" the parent isn't saying "don't play" they're saying "don't play on the road", why? Because playing on the road could get you hit by a truck. God lays out these suggestions for our own benefit. Playing on the road is dangerous, we may get away with it 99 times but on the 100th we might end up a bloody smear on the grill of a semi. Sex out of wedlock is like playing on the road, the risks are heart ache and pregnancy without desire, not to mention disease et cetera. God doesn't want us to not have fun, he wants us to be safe, He wants us to live long healthy lives free of heart ache and physical distress.
If you play on the road and get hit by a truck, you must live (if you survive) with the injuries sustained, you can't escape that - but its your fault at the end of the day, you were warned by your parent to stay off the road, but you ignored them. Sex out of wedlock could lead to disease or pregnancy, you must live with those ramifications, while a disease can be cured or a pregnancy destoryed, those are choices we must answer to God for, including thechoice that lead to pregnancy or disease.
God does not cause suffering.
But God will use suffering to bring us to Him or to alter His plan.
You smoke like a freight train? It was your choice to buy the fags and use the fags and to ignore the warnings on the packet and the advice from your doctor, you end up with a tumour, well, its your fault for not paying heed. God doesn't want you to have cancer, He doesn't want you to suffer! He wants you to live as long as possible! God won't just grab your hand when you're coughing your lungs up, you have to call out to Him, then God will embrace you and bring you to Him.
WE have a choice to say yay or neigh to God. We can choose to live our lives to glorify Him, or we can ignore His commands and His love. We can accept His Son's sacrfice as our admission price into Heaven or we can ignore it.
Whatever choices we make, we must answer for.
God is a God of Life. He IS the God of Life. How can you truly beleive He is a-okay with you killing a human life, regardless of its location or state of consciousness?
However, at the end of the day, God is Pro-Choice, but He's Pro-the right choice, but God is also Pro-Life, if He wasn't, none of us would be here. You think God is happy with people making the choice to kill the most defenceless of the human family?

reply from: Cecilia

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.

reply from: 4choice4all

Thank you for a well thought out response.
First.. I don't believe God wills cancer or pregnancy. I said unintended unwanted pregnancies are a failure...other's added to the discussion. Our thoughts are a mouse fart in the wind....so why do so many believe that they know the will of God...that they have the power to read the bible and figure out all the inconsistencies to a tee and they actually have the right answers and know exactly what God wants. If the average walmart shopping, pork n bean eating, nascar watching person has God figured out I think we've misjudged the majesty of God.
I think, I read, I search my soul and I beg for answers.....and I know that no matter what I've lived my life true to MY faith. I have no questions answering for my actions now or in the future.
I don't believe God causes suffering anymore than I believe he causes pregnancy. I was trying to extend what I thought were the points others had made about God and pregnancy.
We take human life all the time in all ways. I don't think God cares if it's in utero or during war or during a car accident...that's a petty God. Bombing a village is ok, aborting is not? No way... I don't buy that at all. God is prochoice...now that I agree with.

reply from: Faramir

Are you saying this because you don't believe in god?
If you do, then do you think he is not the ultimate life-force sustaining his creation?

reply from: Shenanigans

Yeah, I know, but what's the failure part? The failure of contraception? The failure of common sense? Should a childs life be ended because of a percieved failure? Who determines a failure? Not all unintended pregnanices are wanted. Even if the mother doesn't want or intend the pregnancy, there are plenty of others who are willing to offer that child a life. Should someone's concept of failure determine whether someone else should pay with their life? Or are you speaking in a communal sense, where an unplanned unwanted pregnancy is a failure of society? If so, where has society failed? With providing 100% BC, there will always be idiots who are too drunk or too stupid to use it effectively? Has society simply failed to teach people to control their baser instincts?
I've given up trying to understand how people can say "God believes this" "God says this". What I beleive is based on logic, reasoning, Catholic theologigans who have been studying this for thousands of years and a rational approach to the bible.
But I just can't see God, the creator of all life, supporting the killing of unborn children, wanted, desired, unplanned, "failure" or not.
And no one can ever figure out God, He's far to above us, everything about Him is so much vaster then us. God's brain is like an entire universe, in comparison our brains is like .0001% of a grain of sand. If we could understand God, we'd BE God.
That's the funny thing with the bible, Revelation 3:16 "Since you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to spit you out of my mouth." You could say this means that God doesn't care if your Pro-Abortion or Pro-Life, but if you're a fence sitter he'll spit you out. Or if you support killing Jews or don't support killing jews you are safe, but if you don't have an opinion, or if you're an atheist or a fundamentalist God will save you, but heaven forbid if you're an agnostic! This is another one of those bible verses which can be twisted to justify anything.
Your actions make you who you, good or bad they affect you and those around you.
I wouldn't imagine God cares how someone kills someone else, I think God only cares that someone has taken it upon themselves to KILL another.
I'd wager God is just as mad at the military leaders who decide to bomb a hospital full of orphans as much as he is at the woman who aborts her pregnancy because it was unwanted et al.
Yip, but remember, He's Pro-the right choice, not pro-choice to kill unborn children.
People can piss about arguing about life of mother, rape, foetal abnormality, and I don't think God would condemn those women who abort for such reasons, but when its shown that 97% of abortions are done for "social" reasons, I just can't see God getting too happy about a woman choosing to kill her unborn children so she can wear a bikini, have a social life, make another payment on the merc et cetera.
Because lets not mince words, when you say your pro-choice, you're saying you're "pro-choice to kill unborn children", when someone says they're pro-choice we all konw they're referring to the right to have an abortion which is killing an unborn child. How can such an action sit okay with the Lord?
If God has no issues with killing the most defenceless child in the human family, then I'm worshipping the wrong God. In fact, it makes me feel physically ill to think a God I obey would be such a cold hearted monster as to turn his back on the lives of the unborn.

reply from: Cecilia

Are you saying this because you don't believe in god?
If you do, then do you think he is not the ultimate life-force sustaining his creation?
if there is a god, and I do not know and no one does, i don't think "he" "it" or "she" is giving anyone a pregnancy. it is amazing biological function but not a spiritual one. it is amazing how our bodies work, our brains are us, our cells divide to make us, but it is not a god. it is biology.
Shenanigans said: In fact, it makes me feel physically ill to think a God I obey would be such a cold hearted monster as to turn his back on the lives of the unborn.
have you read your bible lately?

reply from: Yuuki

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.
God allowed you to find that person and be in bed at that time. You have to think of a bigger picture than just you having sex at that one moment; you have to remember that God is - and knows - the entire univervse from beginning to end. Every single thing we do is supposed to happen and IS part of the "whole" picture.

reply from: 4choice4all

The failure is on the two people that procreated. Failure to prevent...failure of awareness...just a failure.
Many people that are religious and prochoice say their beliefs are founded on logic, reason and theologians over the ages.
So nowhere in the bible does God, the creator of life, advocate death? Nowhere is it ambiguous?
Pro the right choice...is that contradictory to free will? And again....i don't believe there is a consensus on what the right choice is. And even when we fail to make the 'right choice'...we have redemption.
And if God doesn't support abortion...and you said God only cares if someone else takes it upon themselves to kill...why does it matter to God if they were raped or not?
I'm prochoice...I'm pro aborting a fetus ....I don't mince words....and I'm comfortable with my belief that God is ok with it...and ok with me ...and ok with my actions.

reply from: CharlesD

The Bible is rather clear in regards to abortion. The scripture says rather plainly that we are not to take the lives of innocent human beings. There is no mention of age, stage of development, or circumstances of birth.

reply from: Shenanigans

Yeah, the parts in the OLD TESTAMENT about God calling for the slashing open of pregnant women and dashing the children to the rocks?
I don't adhere to the OT, it was just tacked onto the NT to give the christain religion some crediance. As it is, there is actually evidence that shows there was more then one God being referred to in the OT.

reply from: Shenanigans

Doesn't seem too fair that someone else should pay for the failure of others...
I've yet to be presented with any from the pc side. Just the usual "its my body so meh" speal.
Exactly my point. The bible is a giant contradiction slapped between two hard covers. The old testament talks of stoning adulterers and the NT talks of "he who is without sin cast the first stone", the OT talks of slashing open the bellies of pregnant women then the new testament talks of for caring for the least of these.
OF course, the argument is the condition of man in the OT, before Jesus paid the price for sin, before Jesus humans were filthy in the eyes of the Lord - hence the reason they couldn't enter the temples without purification rituals. Before then human life was so polluted it was offensive to God. Then there's the historical evidence that points to there being two gods being referanced in the OT.
The OT is history, even the 10 commandements no longer hold any real weight and Jesus said the only commandment he gave is Love the lord your god and love one another as I have loved you. Committing adultery against your spouse is not showing them the love Jesus showed us, stealing, coverting, idoltry is not showing love to others or God that God has shown us, killing your unborn child is not showing them the love Jesus shows us.
As Christains our faith should be based on the gospels and the teachigns of Christ. IF Christains are going to harp on abut what's in Levicitus and stoning prosititutes and demanding the death penalty for abortionists then they better not eat pork, or have milk and beef in the same dish and they better offer a dove to the temple after each monthly cycle... see where I'm going with this?
You're pro-choice, are you not? Yes, you've have a name that implies that, you support that, then by your logic, you must support a person's right to rape your neighbour, to murder your friends to burn the homes of your family. You can argue that that's ridiculous because those choices directly harm another, but that's not the point, the point is that someoen is making a choice and you must support that choice no matter what that choice is or what damage it does. If it is someone's choice to murder, then you must support that choice process. THe person may choose NOT to murder, and you must support that also. You may not support murder, but if you support choice, you must support the choice to murder.
Its making the choice that you support, not the choice made, but you must not interfer with the choice process or the execution of such choice. Its a rather annoying concept actually in that you will find yourself in one big moral hole in the ground.
As for God, He supports our ability to choose, but we must answer for the choice we make. If you go to murder your neighbour that's a choice, if you murder your neighbour, that's a choice, God cannot reach down and take the machete from your hand to save your neighbour as that would interfer with your right to choose AND would void the need for faith of both you and your neighbour.
God's not an ogre.
The woman raped is in a horrific state of emotional being. Not only will she have the trauma of the violation of rape, but chances are, those around her and society will be telling her to abort. Her ability to decide has been deminished. Its like if a mentally disabled person murders. They do not have the ability to make a fully informed decision. The woman raped is emotionally and mentally unstable.
But is God okay with that? Your beliefs are all well and good, but all that matters is what God thinks.
As my mum says, you'll find out when you die.

reply from: 4choice4all

Actually...people of faith...ordained people of faith...they do talk about being prochoice and right with God. Often. And in church. Maybe not your church..but it happens. There's an organization called the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice and they are clergy...and feel they are justified through their faith.
I don't have to support every choice. Being prochoice isn't some sort of covenant I'm bound to without question.
I'm aware of the notion of answering for choices. I don't think abortion is a sin that can't be forgiven...all stumble. Like you said...God is not an ogre. God see's my heart and knows why I'm compelled to be there. God knows that in my heart it's an act of love. These women are the women at the well....we are compelled to ask if those throwing stones are without their own sins. She will answer to her God...or not. She will answer to her conscience...or not. That is not what I concern myself with. I can control MY actions. And I approach these women with love and compassion...never having to walk in their shoes.
If I stand before God to answer for my work at the clinic....well, like Bertrand Russell said....I'll have to say I thought I did the right thing and if it wasn't there "wasn't enough evidence God, not enough evidence."

reply from: Yuuki

They failed to be responsible, I'll agree. But unless the man failed to ejaculate, they didn't fail to procreate
Free will is a difficult issue. Pro-God's-Choice is better, and shouldn't we always be working towards the choice God would make? Surely his choice would be the right one to make. And I don't think God would chose to kill his baby just because he was in college.
You shouldn't look at redemption and forgiveness like that... it reminds me too much of the quip about Catholics, "yeah, they get to sin all week because they just go get it forgiven on sunday, do some hail marys, and they're good to go!". We should never make a decision thinking "Oh well, if it's the wrong choice I'll be forgiven anyway".
God doesn't support pointless and wasteful death. I won't say abortion specifically because I think the issue is bigger than abortion. God doesn't only care if you chose to kill. He cares about every decision you make. Abortion due to rape is pointless. It doesn't un-rape the woman, and it kills an innocent life.
I don't think God is okay with someone aborting if they are capable of carrying the child to term. He would want you to make the Christian choice, and Christianity is about serving, and loving, and being selfless. Aborting is very selfish in most cases, very unloving towards the child, and serves no one but yourself.

reply from: Faramir

What scriptures would you cite to support that the unborn are human beings and deserve the same respect and justice as the born?

reply from: scopia19822

Really were you "wanted"? I was unplanned and unwanted does that mean I am a sign of some kind of failure? The only one I can think of is that my coke whore mom failed to keep her legs closed and my alcholic dad couldnt resist not keeping it in his pants. They thank God did not raise me. No child is ever a sign of failure. If a person does not want to become pregnant, they can abstain from intercourse. They can use a method of BC and if the BC fails that does not absolve them of the responisbilty and consequnces of their actions.

reply from: scopia19822

Can you look at Jesus and say that you are doing nothing wrong? Do you think he will tell you Thou art a faithful servant?

reply from: Faramir

The Bible was not meant to be a stand-alone moral guidebook.
Verses and chapters were not meant to be taken out of the context of their original meaning and out of the context of the Church.
If you want to continue to be logical and fair, examine the Church that claims authority over and authorship of the New Testament, and to be the inheretor of the old.
I can't find anything that opposes the use of contraception, yet I know it to be wrong because The Church, without whom there would be no New Testament to read out of context, guided by the Holy Spirit, and guided by Sacred Tradition (the Bible being a part of that), instructs us that it violates the dignity and purpose of the marital act.

reply from: scopia19822

"can't find anything that opposes the use of contraception, yet I know it to be wrong because The Church, without whom there would be no New Testament to read out of context, guided by the Holy Spirit, and guided by Sacred Tradition (the Bible being a part of that), instructs us that it violates the dignity and purpose of the marital act."
Yes only The Church can inteperet the Bible, God forbid that we use the brain God gave us.

reply from: Faramir

When you take the Bible out of the Church, you can use it to justify anything.
Prochoicers find a way to justify abortion or at least can say there is no condemnation.
Killers find a way to justify killing abortion doctors and clinic workers.
The brain God gave us leads us to the Church, and the Bible itelf leads us to the Church, for those who are objective, fair minded, and who are willing to change their lives.

reply from: scopia19822

When you take the Bible out of the Church, you can use it to justify anything.
Prochoicers find a way to justify abortion or at least can say there is no condemnation.
Killers find a way to justify killing abortion doctors and clinic workers.
The brain God gave us leads us to the Church, and the Bible itelf leads us to the Church, for those who are objective, fair minded, and who are willing to change their lives.
The Bible speaks for itself and it says that killing innocents is wrong. The brain God gave me lead me AWAY from the the church. Christ promised liberation and freedom from legalism and the strict letter of the law. He denounced the Pharisees for doing these things. I did not feel like I had freedom in Christ as a Catholic. It was a bunch of man made commandments and thou shalt nots. It is a caste sytem of Bishops, Clergy,Religious, Celibate lay people and finally the married people and families at the bottom of the totem pole. While I understand that there are certain commandments and precepts that ALL Christians should live by and the need for orderly worship and church government, it does not mean a bunch of legalistic commandments. The RCC as it stands today is more like the Pharisees of Christ time . Maybe if the RCC would quit covering up and codoning child abuse and excommuncate the likes of Sebelius, Pelosi, and Biden maybe just maybe I will rethink my stance until then I dont think so.

reply from: Yuuki

The Bible was not meant to be a stand-alone moral guidebook.
Verses and chapters were not meant to be taken out of the context of their original meaning and out of the context of the Church.
If you want to continue to be logical and fair, examine the Church that claims authority over and authorship of the New Testament, and to be the inheretor of the old.
I can't find anything that opposes the use of contraception, yet I know it to be wrong because The Church, without whom there would be no New Testament to read out of context, guided by the Holy Spirit, and guided by Sacred Tradition (the Bible being a part of that), instructs us that it violates the dignity and purpose of the marital act.
I find almost all of your post interesting except of course the archaic notion about birth control. I find this:
"The Bible was not meant to be a stand-alone moral guidebook.
Verses and chapters were not meant to be taken out of the context of their original meaning and out of the context of the Church."
To be of particular interest.

reply from: 4choice4all

And in my church....abortion is taught as something that is not an immoral act or "wrong".
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo.....and I agree

reply from: Faramir

Do you think it's possible that there are some churches which cater to what makes someone most comfortable and to what they want to hear?
Sense, reason, and intellect, without any church, led me to see that abortion is an injustice, and my religion confirmed it.

reply from: 4choice4all

Possible..sure, anything is. Do I believe that is the goal of my church or any other church that is prochoice...no. I don't. I believe that many prochoice people of faith that I have met are as devout as any other and as convicted as any other. Just like I don't believe that other denominations choose not to condemn bc because it's what people want to hear...I believe they are convicted that bc is no immoral.
There are many belief systems out there and I believe that the muslim and jew and buddhist..etc. did not "choose" to be that faith because it was the easiest path for them.
Sense, reason and intellect without any church, led me to be prochoice and my religion confirmed it.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think churches are prochoice because they want to attract followers, I think that like minded people tend to congregate together....
if you are a pacifist, you would be very comfortable with the Quakers. Although Nixon was a quaker.....
But the question isn't really what we think, it is what does God have to say about what we are thinking.
I can't see how you can make a case that abortion is allowable using the bible....and if it isn't allowable in the Word, then how can a church say its okay?
What reasons does your church use to support its position?

reply from: 4choice4all

I really can't see how you can use the bible to say abortion is wrong. I can see how you can stretch parts of the bible to cover just about any deed though.
The UCC has no figurehead that tells the churches what to preach and believe. You will find individual congregations within the UCC disagree about many social issues. The General Synod has no authority over what one should believe or preach, however, since the 1970's the church has said that it's a decision for a woman and her God and her doctor and no one else. "Free by grace and justified by faith"
There are many articles you can find on www.rcrc.org that talk about how prochoice people of faith feel justified by their faith and the bible and are comfortable with being a prochoice christian.

reply from: Faramir

Does your church say it's ok because it does not kill a human person who has a soul, or do they say abortion is ok even if it kills a person?
What about the famous meeting of fetuses in the Bible?
When pregnant Mary, met pregnant Elizabeth, Elizabeth's baby (to be later known as John the Baptist) lept in her womb.
Could you imagine either Mary or Elizabeth exercising "their right to choose" after that?

reply from: 4choice4all

Well....I hate to speak for the church because the denomination doesn't have a lot of official statements. It's the nature of the UCC. I will say that my views are consistent with those of the pastors I've heard speak out about abortion in my church. The first time I heard of the hebrew word nephesh was in my church by a visiting pastor. nephesh is a hebrew word used for "person" and it's translation means to breath. So there is the thought that our first breath is when god breathes life into us and we have a spirit and become a person.
As far as the meeting, we tend to not be literalists. My daughter Grace did a lot of leaping in my womb at a Pearl Jam concert but I didn't bestow any religious sentiment on the event.

reply from: Faramir

So then your church infallibly decrees that there is no soul until the first breath? Therefore an abortion at any stage, even at 8.5 months, would just kill a "shell," a thing that looks very human person, but really is not?

reply from: Faramir

I reread your post, so my question about an "infallible decree" would not apply to your church, then? This is just an "opinion" of some pastors? There are other pastors in your church who would say that there is a soul before birth (and breath)?
Also, I wanted to know if you know that you are also me. A couple of very astute people on this board say that you are me, so please keep that in mind. At least one of them also said I am carolemarie and churchmose too, so you are also those two as well. Get it?

reply from: Faramir

You don't ascribe any relgious sentiment to a sacred writing about Jesus, his Mother, John the Baptist, and his mother?
Jees, what does it take then?
Do you believe Jesus walked on water, caused a blind man to see, and raised Lazurus from the dead?
Getting back to that meeting--what then is not literal? The entire meeting? That Elizabeth really did not say that? Or that Elizabeth did say that, but she was mistaken that the presence of God in the womb and his Mother had anything to do with "the leap"?

reply from: 4choice4all

So then I'm part of a trinity....guess I'm the holy ghost since I lack the plumbing to be father or son.
Abortion rights would not be an infallible decree in our church and I'm sure there are plenty of UCC pastors that are prolife.
I do not believe he walked on water, caused a literally permanently blinded man to see or raised the dead. I don't believe I have to suspend all belief and believe in the supernatural miracles of JC to be a christian. I believe God is in all of us at all times....so when Elizabeth said that it had no more meaning than if any other person said it.
I do not believe that Jc wanted us to worship him and I really try not to. We are really going to dig deep into personal theologies if we go down this road....lol. I don't mind though.

reply from: scopia19822

Then why are you a Christian if you do not beleive in the miracles and teachings of Christ. How can you be a Christian and hold these beleifs? Do you not believe that Christ was crucified and rose again from the dead.

reply from: Faramir

Does you church have any theological teachings?
All Christian churches agree that Jesus is God in the flesh, deserving of our worship, and that He performed miracles, died and came back to life by his own power.
I don't mean this to be offensive, but you seem to have gutted Christianity of the essentials.
What is most important about Christianity is the promise and hope of eternal life, and if you don't believe he could perform miracles, how could you believe he could save us from damnation?
If you want to save the time of a response, I would be happy to look at a link that outlines the beliefs of your church, but I've never heard of a Church that professes to be Christian which denies the miracles of the Bible.
Meanwhile, I don't know why I'm bothering to continue this argument with myself. But it's really frustrating when I disagree with myself to this extent.

reply from: 4choice4all

I know you are not meaning to be offensive but it's hard not to be a bit offended...but just a bit so don't apologize.
http://www.ucc.org/beliefs/statement-of-faith.html

I certainly, in my personal beliefs, fall in line with unitarians...but I feel most at home(called, actually) to the UCC faith. When I was preparing to have our daughters baptized I talked to our minister and in the course of discussions I said....I don't believe JC was the literal son of God...I seriously doubt his divinity. She said You're in good company...neither do I. And then she told me stories of her experiences in Seminary and I realized that the things I struggled with were shared by many..including ministers.
I don't think it's gutted of the essentials...my list of essentials are smaller than yours...that's all.
Luke 11:27-28 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it." (Don't worry about worshiping me...worship God)
Luke 18:18-19 8Then an official asked Jesus, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good except for God.
Matthew 7:21 1"Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven.
Jc didn't say worship me...he said "follow me". To honor him is to do his will...not marvel at his skills. I mean, as a parent...which do you prefer...that your children always brag on how wonderful you are or that they live a life guided by principles that you strived to instill in them? Do I think JC or God is more concerned by my doubts in the divinity of JC or in the way I strive to follow them?
I'm paraphrasing Fos***** here....because he said it so much better than I. What is God? What does the bible say God is? "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" So....in that sense...yes, Jesus is divine. But in the sense of the virgin birth and God the literal father....I don't subscribe to that belief.

reply from: scopia19822

I am sorry but if you do not believe in even the most basic Christian teachings includding that Jesus was the son of God and in his divinity or miracles than logically you cannot be considered in most circles a Christian. You deny the most basic and fundamental teachings of the Christian faith. I am sorry but I find it laughable that you call yourself a Christian. Congratulations you are Diest.

reply from: 4choice4all

Sorry...but I don't abide by YOUR narrow definition of Christianity. My Christ has a larger table than yours.

reply from: scopia19822

Narrow definition? You deny the miracles of Jesus, you deny his virgin birth and his divinity. Do you deny the crucifixion and ressurection as well. If you deny what Jesus did and who he was then how can you call yourself a Christian? How can you follow him if you deny Him at the same time. My "narrow" definiation is embraced by over 90% of professing Christians.

reply from: Faramir

4choice,
What does this mean to you (might not be exact--from memory) from the Gospel of John:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word dwelt among us.
He was asking a rhetorical question and did not deny he was "good" or "God."
The Jews were outraged when he said "I and the Father are One." He claimed equality with God. He also said, "Who has seen me has seen the Father."
I'm sure you've heard the expression, "a text without a context is a pretext."
You have presented very small slices out of context. All of the NT points to the Divinity of Christ, and that is the foundation of Chrisitianity.
I don't see how this supports any idea that he is not to be worshipped.
The referral is to Mary, his mother, and I don't think the word "contrary" is proper, though I don't know that for certain. At any rate, his emphasis was on the fact that Mary was not blessed just because she was the vessel that bore him, but because she heard, believed, and observed the word.
But if you are using the Bible to support your theology, you have to rip out huge chunks of it to deny the miracles, and are picking and choosing what fits, and rejecting what doesn't.

reply from: scopia19822

"But if you are using the Bible to support your theology, you have to rip out huge chunks of it to deny the miracles, and are picking and choosing what fits, and rejecting what doesn't."
Cafeteria Christianity Faramir. it is the latest thing.

reply from: 4choice4all

90%....proof?
I don't deny...I doubt. Is human doubt enough to deny a person communion with God? or deny them the love of Christ? And besides, you are presenting very open ended questions. I deny what Jesus did? No I don't. What, in your opinion, is the essence of JC acts? Walking on water or freeing us from the law? Which is the greater miracle...raising the dead or convincing people to help each other on the sabbath? My Christ doesn't need a miracle to make me follow him...he had me at hello
I don't deny his divinity...I disagree with your assessment of what it means to be divine.

reply from: scopia19822

4choice the RCC, Eastern Orthodox and various Protestant Churches all accept that Jesus was born of a virgin, was the Son of God and performed miracles and healed the sick. I think about 90% would be a fair assesment. If you can deny these about Christ, you can deny anything else about him. I do not know what you consider divine, I cannot think of anything that you would consider divine. You deny the fundamental cornerstones of the Christian faith, by your definintion Christ was just a great man, but to most Chrisitan he was much more than that.

reply from: Faramir

I think we should give her the benefit of the doubt that she believes as she does in good faith because she thinks it's true, and that she is striving to live a good life.
But if she wants to discuss it, I'm more than happy to point out why I think she's all wet.

reply from: 4choice4all

I don't doubt that JC thought he was good....but when I read that I see a man that says...why do you feel the need to fluff my ego? You want to impress me...worship God.
I and the father are one...you see me, you see God......Again, I don't read the bible literally. I believe that Jesus had a very important message there..but is not being literal. I think he was talking about his communion with God and how when we live in love we live in God. When you see me...you see God......when you see me(and I am more than flesh..I am words and deeds) you see the essence of God. Didn't you ask me what it has to be either/or and why can't it be "also" ?(I need to dig that quote up...it's sticking with me..I'm still chewing on it like Violet Beauregarde on a piece of gum)
I'm not giving a full thesis on my faith....eventually, if I stick around like planned, I'm sure something like a thesis will emerge. But the text I gave were just snippets giving examples of how I read text and what text spoke to me. It's not meant to be the definitive answer on my beliefs.
I don't feel like my beliefs take anything away.....just add to it. Like a prism...when some see a prism they see a beautiful piece of cut glass and marvel at it.....I take that prism..hold it up and turn it around and suddenly there is a rainbow that adds to but does not detract from the beautiful cut glass.

reply from: scopia19822

I think we should give her the benefit of the doubt that she believes as she does in good faith because she thinks it's true, and that she is striving to live a good life.
But if she wants to discuss it, I'm more than happy to point out why I think she's all wet.
The sad thing is that she does believe this. I do not know whether to call it ignorance or good faith.

reply from: Faramir

In your interpretation, is there a Heaven and a Hell?
Is there a body and a soul?
Is there a possibility for eternal life and eternal happiness?
Is there a possibility of eternal damnation?
To be more specific, do you believe that you and the person who you are live on in some form and with a self-awareness of who you are (and were before you died) after death of the body?

reply from: 4choice4all

Would you....or even better, do you think that God would prefer that I get hung up on divinity and the miracles and just deny all of Christianity? Or does God prefer that I pretend to believe? That's what I asked myself.......I'm having issues with divinity and miracles(and an assortment of things)....and I can't help that. I keep going to church...I went to many churches, not just UCC churches....I bought many books...I read articles on online...I talked to believers....I set out to leave no stone unturned. when I couldn't get past the issues I was having I gave up on Christianity and thought...I guess I need to look elsewhere...which led me to look into other faiths. But that didn't work because nothing made sense to me accept Christianity...and not merely God, I'm no diest....but Christ. I thought, why does Christianity call to me and draw me in if I'm to be pushed out because of a lack of belief in common doctrine? I searched for answers....and when I stopped searching and just sat down and listened...I had my answers. If I get some things wrong...God is a loving and patient parent and she will help me get it right eventually. My God is a living God.

reply from: Faramir

You make a very good point.
You're on a journey of faith and are seeking, and might or might not be at your "destination." But the fact that you are seeking and doing so in good faith I am sure IS pleasing to God, regarless of whether you are in line with what would be theologically correct.
For that reason, I think I would rather not "debate" religion with you any more, or point out what I think are flaws, unless you ask me to, or unless you piss me off by dissing MY church.

reply from: scopia19822

"or that reason, I think I would rather not "debate" religion with you any more, or point out what I think are flaws, unless you ask me to, or unless you piss me off by dissing MY church."
I think the RCC is covering up child abuse and has done so for a long time. I think they should be held accountable, is that "dissing" it? If it was any other organizations you would have Catholics speaking out in outrage, yet with this mum is the word or how dare you critisize the church.

reply from: Faramir

I forgot to indicate this was directed at 4choice.
And I have a short memory--there was a time I did not believe Jesus was divine or that there was a Trinity.

reply from: 4choice4all

Are you hoping that through my search I will eventually evolve into a Catholic? lol....I kid. I will say that I have a friend that is a Methodist minister and she was explaining "feeder" churches to me and it occurred to me that my current church and my current beliefs may not be my destination...and I wasn't saddened by that. Growth is life.
I have received nothing but respect and consideration from you on this board so I have no problems with you pointing out flaws or questioning what I believe. I actually welcome it because it makes me think and well, I need that in my life. So much of my life revolves around the home and my deepest discussions are usually with two women I love and trust, Frida and Bailey, unfortunately, they are dogs and don't challenge me very much. Frankly, I think they'll agree to anything to keep the greenies coming.
I would never disparage the Catholic church...I've seen the exorcist....I want to know that you guys have my back in case that kind of stuff goes down around here.

reply from: Faramir

We will get you one way or the other. I sincerely hope it is by your own free will, but if not--well we have our ways of getting that first confession out of you... The upside...what do you think about breaking the 5' barrier?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I forgot to indicate this was directed at 4choice.
And I have a short memory--there was a time I did not believe Jesus was divine or that there was a Trinity.
Trinity, what's that????
It was better when you didn't believe in a "Trinity". You obviously didn't get that yourself from the Bible; the word Trinity is not there. Some man had to convince you of a "Trinity".
Jesus testified that the Father was greater than Him and he always obeyed the Father.
Is the Holy Spirit a force, another name for the Father, the jury is still out on that one. The One True God is composed of Father, Son and Saints. That is kinda like a threesome, huh?

reply from: scopia19822

I forgot to indicate this was directed at 4choice.
And I have a short memory--there was a time I did not believe Jesus was divine or that there was a Trinity.
You are on an open forum and therefore you are subject to having anyone relpying to your post, but you have not answered this question before. Why is it most Catholics are either on the defensive or mum about the latest child abuse scandal?

reply from: Faramir

I don't mind that you responded, I just thought you misunderstood that I meant that post for you.
Anyway, most of the laity are NOT mum or defensive about ANY child abuse.
I am a father of two boys, and I would have raised holy hell if anyone in the clergy molested either of them when they were young. I want all abusers, pedophiles, etc., to be cleaned out, and would not want any information about them to be supressed.
What I AM defensive about is portraying these scandals as if that's what the Church is all about, and letting them obscure the great good that is in the Church.

reply from: 4choice4all

Not in bodily form but perhaps our soul.

reply from: scopia19822

"What I AM defensive about is portraying these scandals as if that's what the Church is all about, and letting them obscure the great good that is in the Church."
Sadly in this case the good trumps the bad. Lets face it the RCC has alot of wealth is a a huge world wide organization they are wealthy enough and big enough to think they can get away with it. Where Protestant churchs are usually smaller and have less money and often are shut down and held accountable. time for the RCC to be accountable as well. There size and wealth does not absolve them. I will not allow my son to go back to Mass or Sunday School with my husband. I cant really say I trust a priest.

reply from: 4choice4all

I might sell my soul to the Catholics to be 5 foot...but only if you can do something about my feet too! I wear a kids sized shoe and it's hell...pure hell! I went shoe shopping today and after seeing what was available..I came home empty handed. I had my choice of glittery pink sketchers or some high school musical sandals..hello kitty flip flops. Do they make a rack just for feet? I want an adult sized foot! I know I would convert for that.

reply from: Faramir

I meant that your new height would be a by-product of our favorite method of "conversion."
I think you should have gone with the glittery pink ones.
There must be an upside to your size. Do you ever fly on the airlines? It would be wonderful to have so much extra space.

reply from: 4choice4all

Leg room is NEVER an issue....no one ever asks you to help them move.....people assume you are younger than you actually are.
Honestly, I think people are nicer to me irl. I'm non-threatening so people just warm up to me quickly. Old men stop me in the grocery store and ask me to read labels, today some older woman asked me to read the label in her shoe and tell her what size it was......everyone assumes I'm a friendly little elf.

reply from: 4choice4all

You are right...the pink glittery ones would've looked hawt with my leather hotpants!

reply from: Faramir

Do little girls ever think you're a doll they could take home?

reply from: 4choice4all

They are usually too frightened by my horns and pointed tail.

reply from: Faramir

I realize this is not my business and you of course are not obliged to answer, but since you decided to post it publicly, it seems like fair game to respond.
Why is it your decision and not your husband's decision, or not a joint decision, to pull your son out of the Church? Doesn't he have a say at all? I feel badly for him that he was brought into the Church and now will be denied the Sacraments.
I don't get what you're saying about "size and wealth."
Abuse is wrong and needs to be eradicated. That there was abuse does not make the Church evil. Evil was done by men who behaved badly, but their behavior does not invalidate the Church itself.

reply from: Cecilia

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.
God allowed you to find that person and be in bed at that time. You have to think of a bigger picture than just you having sex at that one moment; you have to remember that God is - and knows - the entire univervse from beginning to end. Every single thing we do is supposed to happen and IS part of the "whole" picture.
you can believe that if you like.
so you also believe that god allows people to have unintended pregnancies as 'lessons'? unwanted children are lessons? is that the kind of lesson you teach in your classroom?

reply from: 4choice4all

America is large and powerful and allows abortion to be the law of the land....are you planning on relocating Scopia? Or do you recognize that within this group there is good and bad and you wish to remain and work to make things right again?

reply from: Cecilia

Yeah, the parts in the OLD TESTAMENT about God calling for the slashing open of pregnant women and dashing the children to the rocks?
I don't adhere to the OT, it was just tacked onto the NT to give the christain religion some crediance. As it is, there is actually evidence that shows there was more then one God being referred to in the OT.
oh, my, i hear new justifications or explanations every day.
whatever it takes so you can sleep well at night.

reply from: scopia19822

Originally posted by: Faramir
I realize this is not my business and you of course are not obliged to answer, but since you decided to post it publicly, it seems like fair game to respond.
Why is it your decision and not your husband's decision, or not a joint decision, to pull your son out of the Church? Doesn't he have a say at all? I feel badly for him that he was brought into the Church and now will be denied the Sacraments.
Who do you feel bad for my son? He was baptized a Presbyterian. He would not have been considered to be brought into the Church at all until he was at least 7 or 8. We agreed that my son would be brought up in my religion (Presbyterian) at the time or whatever my religion maybe.
[

reply from: Yuuki

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.
God allowed you to find that person and be in bed at that time. You have to think of a bigger picture than just you having sex at that one moment; you have to remember that God is - and knows - the entire univervse from beginning to end. Every single thing we do is supposed to happen and IS part of the "whole" picture.
you can believe that if you like.
so you also believe that god allows people to have unintended pregnancies as 'lessons'? unwanted children are lessons? is that the kind of lesson you teach in your classroom?
Don't be moronic.

reply from: Faramir

I thought your husband was the father.
But he could have been brought into the Church immediately. He wouldn't have had to wait until 7 or 8.

reply from: Cecilia

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.
God allowed you to find that person and be in bed at that time. You have to think of a bigger picture than just you having sex at that one moment; you have to remember that God is - and knows - the entire univervse from beginning to end. Every single thing we do is supposed to happen and IS part of the "whole" picture.
you can believe that if you like.
so you also believe that god allows people to have unintended pregnancies as 'lessons'? unwanted children are lessons? is that the kind of lesson you teach in your classroom?
Don't be moronic.
it is what you said, not me! so if you think it moronic reconsider.

reply from: Yuuki

why would god "give" a woman an unplanned pregnancy..--->
---> ...as a lesson?
he wouldn't. it's a biological funciton of two people having sex. it is not a spiritual movement. amazing of course because of the biology involved but no god gives a woman a pregnancy anymore than he gives a cow a calf.
God allowed you to find that person and be in bed at that time. You have to think of a bigger picture than just you having sex at that one moment; you have to remember that God is - and knows - the entire univervse from beginning to end. Every single thing we do is supposed to happen and IS part of the "whole" picture.
you can believe that if you like.
so you also believe that god allows people to have unintended pregnancies as 'lessons'? unwanted children are lessons? is that the kind of lesson you teach in your classroom?
Don't be moronic.
it is what you said, not me! so if you think it moronic reconsider.
I think your exaggerated reply is moronic, not my original statement.

reply from: nancyu

You're a moron, no you're a moron, no you are, no it's you...
Let me help you out here:
You BOTH are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. Run along home now.

reply from: Yuuki

God may give you a child when you do not expect it. He did to Mary. Would you call Jesus a complete failure?
Not to mention, Mary wasn't married at the time... and according to some historians she was 13!
That was pretty normal back then. Katherine Howard (Henry VIII's last wife) was only 15.

reply from: Yuuki

It depends on why you think God gave you cancer. (If you consider God to be the entire universe, then all of your cells, including the ones that metastasized into cancer, are part of God) Lessons aren't punishments, as someone above seemed to interpret. Surely learning math wasn't a punishment, or english or history? Lessons are not negatives! So if you get cancer, it is something that you now have to deal with, and HOW you deal with it is really what God cares about. That's why (imo) if you electively abort a healthy unexpected pregnancy, you "failed".

reply from: Faramir

Is this meant to be a legitimate point or a personal insult?
Because I would have to tell two lies to do so.
I defend occasionally against misrepresentations, and I share with those who are interested in listening, or in having a good faith discussion. I'm respectful of the faiths and belief systems of others.
A new poster asked specifically about confession and some other things about Catholicism, and I asnwered her questions as best I could. I was trying to convince neither of us, but was explaining what we believe and why.
Who said a Catholic is better than a heathen? I've never said that. If my religion is right, a Catholic most definately could be worse off at judgement, considering what he's been given, through no merit of his own.
Ridicule it all you like. You will get none in return about whatever you believe and what is sacred to you.
My main objection is when distortions and falsehoods are used against Catholicism and Christianity in general.

reply from: scopia19822

"thought your husband was the father.
But he could have been brought into the Church immediately. He wouldn't have had to wait until 7 or 8."
Umm no my son is not a baptized Catholic he would not be brought in until he is 7 or 8 as that is when he would reicieve his first communion. and that is that same even with the Catholic kids. For kids the process is gradual.

reply from: Faramir

Any valid baptism is sufficient, and anyone who has been baptized, from the Church's perspective, has ben baptized into the Catholic Church. He would NOT have to wait until first communion to be brought into the Church.

reply from: scopia19822

"Any valid baptism is sufficient, and anyone who has been baptized, from the Church's perspective, has ben baptized into the Catholic Church. He would NOT have to wait until first communion to be brought into the Church."
He was 3 when I went back, until this year he spent Mass in the parish nursery and then he went to kindergarten religious education with all of the other kids. They dont start religious education until kindergarten and first communion takes place for ALL kids between the ages of 7-10 depending on when the child is ready. He was going through the same process as the cradle Catholics.

reply from: scopia19822

CP are defending me ? I feel so liberated since I left the RCC. I have been reading the Bible and Jesus promised liberation from the letter of Mosiac law, Paul affirms this at least that is what I have read many times. We are responsible for our own sins not anyone elses. I have to say that I do think the Protestant beleif that whatever happened before a persons sincere conversion is forgiven and it is what a person does from that point on is what matters to God. So my husband who out ouf ignorance of Catholic teaching and was not a practicing Christian until 3 years ago needs to have his prior marriages annulled I dont know. I was always taught that if a marriage took place outside the church were not valid marriages and there was nothing to be annulled. If it took place in the RCC than it would need to be annulled, this is the way it used to be. Even the director of Sacemental Prep at my former parish says that he does not understand why my husband needs to have his prior marriages annulled. If I wanted to live by so many commandments I would convert to Judiasm.

reply from: Faramir

You've been away for some time. I admitted to scopia I pushed too hard and apologized for it, and this recent discussion was with with our newb, 4choice, who ASKED about certain doctrine, and what you quoted in bold was meant good naturedly, since I am on friendly terms with her.
And if I believe something to be true, even if it is not true, and purposely state something to the contrary, it's a lie.
I can't admit my faith is "blind" because it isn't. Blind faith is not faith at all, but is simply belief, and the Church does not ask for blind obedience. The foundation of our faith is reason, and reason can bring us to the doorstep of faith, and no blind leap is required.
I don't mind clarifying what our Church teaches and believes, but I'm not interested in proving it to you. I don't have that kind of time, and you've got your mind made up, so it would not be a good faith discussion.
I am not interested in disproving your faith or anybody's faith. I applaud whatever moral code you have that is important and sacred to you. I would not seek to find flaws or disprove it, and frankly don't understand your interest in finding the flaws in mine.
Each and every one of your points has a rebuttal, and some of your points are based on misunderstandings, but again, it would take page after page to go through them all, and I really don't have the time to do it, and don't see the point of it. I would happily address one or two you think are very important, however.

reply from: Faramir

If he had been a lapsed Catholic like you were, the marriages would not have been valid and no annulment would be necessary.
In YOUR case, if you were to be divorced civilly from your current husband, you could marry in the Catholic Church to someone else who was free to marry, and you would not need an annulment.

reply from: scopia19822

If he had been a lapsed Catholic like you were, the marriages would not have been valid and no annulment would be necessary.
In YOUR case, if you were to be divorced civilly from your current husband, you could marry in the Catholic Church to someone else who was free to marry, and you would not need an annulment.
You are misinformed Faramir. Any person who joins the Church and has been married of divorced before has to have their marriages annulled. And If we were to civilly divorce I would have to our marriage annulled to. You really should talk to your religious education for adults teacher.

reply from: Faramir

You are certain to have an invalid marriage. If you had a vaild marriage your husband would not need an annulment. Since you have an invalid marriage, and since it is certain, no annulment would be necessary. That's a moot point as far as you're concerned, since you've left the chruch, but a point worth making, since you're preaching error again.

reply from: Cecilia

no so clever as you think: neither of us called the other a moron.
and Yukki, i didn't exaggerate your reply. you said EXACTLY what i said; you think god sends unwanted pregnancies, and these pregnancies as lessons.
crazy talk!

reply from: Yuuki

YOU implied that the word "lesson" as I was using it was directly comparable to an actual school lesson. The two are completely different. Life lessons are not math lessons. That is an exaggeration, and it was ridiculous.

reply from: Faramir

If I approached someone who was totally ignorant of all religions and said he should accept Jesus as his personal lord and savior, and if he did so without any knowledge of what he was getting into, that woudl be "blind faith" and not true faith at that point, because he would have swallowed anything.
REASON can bring someone to the threshhold of faith.
I don't have the skills and knowledge to do it, but an excellent case can be made that there is a god based on reason alone. An excellent case can be made for the veracity of the bible, and how it points to the church and the sacraments.
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence and plenty of personal testimonies that could convince someone that accepting Catholicism is totally reasonable. Reason provides the foundation to accept what has been revealed by God through men.
That is not "blind."
Not everyone believes that way. There are many who would say there are many ways to climb a mountain and that all faiths are good and lead to the top by different paths.
And some faiths can be DISproven.
Do you think I became a Catholic on a whim? Do you think I went against the grain of my Protestant upbringing and much anti-Cathlolic bigotroy from all directions because I said one day, "I think today I have faith in Catholicism, where do I sign up?"
Would you call two years of study, prayer, uncertainty, agony, discussions with many within and outside of the faith, personal reflections, and some powerful religionus experiences, and then finally deciding to join, taking a BLIND leap of faith?
I have come to believe that within Catholicism subsits all truth that God wishes to reveal to man in his earthly state, and that it provides the means of Salvation of his soul.
Yes, I think that the the religion I found is right, but I do not think all other religions are false. I think they are right in-part, and many provide the means to the same end, though imperfectly.
That's not my intention, but whatever...God has ways of dealing with pride and vanity. But I've never intended to be some kind of "teacher." I'm just responding to stuff on a message board, and discussions evolve. I don't think I've ever just started a thread or made a post "to preach," but was responding to something, or making an attempt to clarify a statement that misrepresented Christianity or Catholicism, particularly.
But I'm no "apologist" or scholar by any means. I know very little, but I want to learn, and these discussions force me to do some thinking and sometimes some research.
Have you read all the scriptures in their original languages? Have you studied tho orgins of each book of the Bible? Do you thoroughly understand the context in which each book was written? Do you understand the purpose of each book and who the intended audicence was at that time? Your knowledge of scriptures is as profound as 2,000 years of scholarly study and research, and you have the same depth of experience and knowledge of the sacred texts as our Holy Father?
What was that you were saying to me about "pride and vanity" btw?

reply from: Faramir

What is this supposed to prove?
Are you trying to make a case that this disproves The Trinity?

reply from: Faramir

Whether a statement is true or "false" is OBjective. Whether a statement is true or a "lie" is SUBjective, since it depends upon the intent of the person making the statement. There is no lie if it is an innocent error. There is a lie only if there is an intent to deceive.

By your definition a first grader who says three times seven is twenty-two is a liar, which is ridiculous, since it's just a mistake.
If I make a statement with a deliberate intent to deceive, even if I make a true statement by mistake, thinking it's a lie, I'm still a liar. Telling the truth by accident or mistake does not mean I'm honest.
At any rate, I would have to lie twice as I understand my faith, to answer the following question you posed, to your satisfaction:
1) I don't believe that I believe out of "blind" faith.
2) The church does not dictate that I do.
The only thing that could prevent person b from qualifying is person b himself.
And no, I don't understand what you are getting at with this.
Why are you more qualified to tell us what a book we wrote ourselves means?
Is an author not a better authority of his own writing than the reader?

reply from: Cecilia

you do not teach life lessons in school? i did not specify.
regardless of how you think of the 'comparison' you did not further address your belief that god sends unwanted pregnancies as lessons.
that is what is ridiculous here.

reply from: Yuuki

you do not teach life lessons in school? i did not specify.
regardless of how you think of the 'comparison' you did not further address your belief that god sends unwanted pregnancies as lessons.
that is what is ridiculous here.
No, we don't really. Not life lessons that LIFE teaches you. Like getting into a crash. That's a life lesson. No one can teach that to you. Learning that stoves are hot. That's a life lesson. No one can teach that to you. Oh sure, mommy can say "that's hot, don't touch!" but most kids will inevitably touch anyway. I once let go of a tire swing after being told not to; I went flying. That was a life lesson about centrifugal force. I learned my lesson, and never let go again.
Getting accidentally pregnant after having sex is a life lesson. You cannot accurately teach what that is like in school. You can warn, but you can't give that experience to a student. Not for real. You can't really simulate the fear or the terror as two lines pop up on the pregnancy test. You can't simulate the horror of telling your significant other or parents. You just can't. And that is what a true life lesson is.

reply from: Faramir

I believe sincerity and intent count for a lot.
I think there are some religions that are way out of line as far as theology, but I'm not tying to present a phony image of tolerance to say that in spite of errors, the intent of the faith, and especially the intent of those who practice the faith, could very well lead them to the God of Christianity.
So I could on the one hand say their doctrines could be "false" but I'd be hard-pressed to say sincere people who are doing the best they can to seek and serve God are embracing a false faith in the sense that it would necessarily lead them astray or to hell, since I think their desire and intent covers over much of what is lacking or is in error.
I don't claim any personal superiority, and I don't go out of my way to compare my faith to the faiths of others. Theses discussions evovle, and often my comments are answers to a questions.


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