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Understand your view.

by: Utilitarian

I was on this site a while ago and made some sophomoric posts. I am now older, more mature. I have been trying to understand your view, a pro-lifer. I am a very understanding person and read all sides to a story and make my own conclusion. My thoughts on abortion is that first, I am a man and it is not my place to tell a woman what to do with her body. If the child is mine I will take responsibility for it. If its not well then I have no place to tell that woman what to do with her body. Second, I believe there are things in this world that happen daily that are worse then not being born. Such as a majority of reports my mother receives being a supervisor or the Child Sex Abuse department in my county. She is also in charge of child fatalities and a majority of those reports are worse then being born.
I read stories all the time about how Jesus is the answer and that we must choose and preserve life. Well there is life all around you that you have "saved." What I mean is I see stories about prolifers changing a woman's mind about having an abortion. I also see stories of adoptions going well and families living happily ever after. I never hear about people helping the children they "save" that are forced into the foster system because they are unwanted. I never see people helping the LIVING children that are helpless in a system. What I mostly see is people hiding behind a cause that provides a reason for them to feel good about themselves. My problem with this is that it becomes my side vs. your side. This gets nothing accomplished and no compromises met. I ask you, why hate a person's view. Why not try to change a system instead of going after people and doctors and SCHOOLS. Why not become FOSTER PARENTS instead of telling other people what to do with their children. How many of you are single and do this? How many married? How many with your own children? Do you think you help the world and make it a better place? Have you ever looked into being a foster parent? Do you think the foster system works? Are you Senile? Blind? Dumb?

reply from: BossMomma

You know pal, some of us bust our humps caring for the living children produced by unplanned pregnancies which is a damn sight better than just saying to hell with it and killing the child. Get to know some folks before making such statements.

reply from: Utilitarian

So do I. Isn't it like swimming against a tsunami? The worst cases is when foster parents go wrong and abuse the children even more. I make that statement because I am working my ass off too and I see people down the street from where I work with signs showing why not to have an abortion. I can tell them stories that will make them cry let alone photos. I am just sick of working my butt off trying to save kids that want to be dead.

reply from: Shenanigans

I commend your questioning.
For starters, the foster care system varies from country to country. From what I understand of America's system, the problem is the children get trapped in it due to their parents loosing custody but not full parental right, therefore, the child languishes in the homes of another, unable to be adopted because the parents won't give up full rights.
Then you must consider the system is clogged, it could take a long time to move these children through. You add in that apathetic and over worked case workers and you have an issue.
So those children can't just be taken home by the local pro-lifer unless they are foster carers.
I don't know much about the fostering system application in America so I can't comment. But in my country they usually only consider couples who are stable in all aspects of life, as a single woman who works shifts and lives like a student, I'd be the last person they'd consider.
As it is, I have decided, that if I don't get married or I can't have children, then fostering if I was married I would consider, and adoption from a country like China if I was single and stable - better a child have at least one parent then live in a smelly orphanage chained to a chair.
And I would like to think that women who are talked into keeping their children, are followed up with care and assistance from the Lifers who talked them into it.
But I usually go the extra kilometre for the people and their families I care for. I do what I can, speeding them through the system, nagging the social workers and other community assistance groups to ensure parents can cope and children are cared for.

reply from: BossMomma

Society has gone down the crapper, I'll agree with you there, but killing children whether in an abusive home or in the womb by a selfish mother are equally disgusting. Society has accepted infanticide as common place and even as a positive thing, what will it accept next? Murdering the handicapped? Murdering the geriatric? Murdering those who inconvenience us is not the way. Society needs to pull together, not apart.

reply from: AshMarie88

I have an aborted brother (my mom was coerced). I have other aborted family members. I was almost aborted. My cousin almost aborted her 2nd son (whom I got to see be born). My fiance and I can't have children (we, in the future, need to look into medicines to help us conceive).
Every time I look at "my" baby (my cousin's who almost was aborted), I look at his cute, happy, peaceful face when I play peek-a-boo with him and think, his life was almost taken away by Klanned Barrenhood. The emotional effects of abortion really hurts.
Why not talk to people before you spout off bullcrap?

reply from: Shenanigans

Maybe you should focus on why the child wants to be dead.
Maybe society should shut its pro-abortion yap and stop giving children the message they are only worth something if they are wanted by their biological parents.

reply from: Shenanigans

Its chilling, isn't it? My sister would never have an abortion, but the guy who got her pregnant, his scummy father, pretty much all of her friends, and even our mother (who vaguely hinted) wanted that child to be aborted.
That foetus so many wanted dead is now a beautiful six year old girl who has been elevated into the "gifted" class. She is one smart cookie, and its not just me being a proud Auntie. I hate to think of the world without her, and we're all excited for the future she has and what she will acheive.
My sister is just as equally appalled, and often says to the father (who only flutters in and out when he can bothered) "well, you wanted her DEAD".

reply from: Utilitarian

The foster system isn't just about families having custody problems. Orphans and abused children are in the system. They do look at all levels of your life before providing the opportunity for an adoption. But if peeople have enough time to sit in front of an abortion clinic they should have time to help foster children.

reply from: Utilitarian

You haven't answered anything I have asked. All you have done is cloud the facts and try to make me feel bad about all the abortions and almost abortions in your family. First, condoms. Second, BC. Third, stop having sex.

reply from: Utilitarian

Maybe you should focus on why the child wants to be dead.
Maybe society should shut its pro-abortion yap and stop giving children the message they are only worth something if they are wanted by their biological parents.
I do focus on why the child wants to be dead. Know what the #1 response is? "I have no one to trust or love." There is also "I can't go home. I don't have a home. I have no parents or I hate my parents."
We don't give them that message, people like you do with your pro-life antics and judgments.

reply from: 4choice4all

I don't think we, as a society, promote a message that children are only worthy if their bio parents wanted them. I think society does a good job of telling adopted children that they are worthy special individuals whose conception presented certain obstacles.
I was a foster parent and I never felt than any foster child I had in my home or encountered in the system wanted to be dead. Granted, my experience was mainly with younger children...no teens. I could understand some despair at being on the verge of aging out of a system and never having anyone step up to help you...but even then...wanting to be dead? That seems like an extreme statement.
As to the OP, hypocrites exist in all areas of life...it's not exclusive to the prolife side of the abortion debate by any mean.

reply from: Utilitarian

4choice4all: Thank you for your help with foster children. I normally deal with teenagers on a regular basis. Out of that Emotion Disturbed children due to special training and family history. Out of that bunch, I hear it all. Everything from suicidal to homicidal.

reply from: 4choice4all

Foster children are in a unique category. They come into care for a reason...and usually for the most heinous and unfathomable reasons. I think it's a fallacy to blame their thoughts of unworthiness or their embrace of death on the fact that they weren't aborted. I think it's safe to lay it at the feet of the abuse inflicted on them over the years and the lack of help in overcoming that abuse. (and those feet would belong to the abusers and society for not making the foster care system a more humane system) Nothing in my life...and certainly no amount of training...prepared me for my first foster placement and looking into the eyes of an utterly broken 7yo. It changed me for life.

reply from: Utilitarian

Also, you are right about the hypocrites being every where. I see a majority of them being religious though and using their faith as the reason. Such as torture. The largest majority of people that found torture to be ok for interrogations were religious church goers. I just want people to be more open minded on both sides. I am not pro abortion I am pro choice.

reply from: Utilitarian

You are right. I don't blame their thoughts on wanting to be aborted. I blame their thoughts on their parents and their abusers (most of the time the parents). Many of the times a child is abused by the parents because the parents lay blame on the child for wasting their life and not allowing them to live their life to the fullest so they take their anger out on that child.
I feel there are things that are much worse then not being born.

reply from: iCelebr8Life

The abuse of children and the ending of human life through abortion, discarded embryos and science experiments are different issues.
What it sounds like Utilitarian is implying is that it is better for a child to never have been born and suffered than to be abused and suicidal. That prolifers only care about the embryo and not about children in the system. That may not be his intent, but it seems to have been understood that way.
I have Christian beliefs and I belief the spirit of the aborted go to be with God, so in a sense, a child that is aborted is in better shape than we are. The reason the destruction of human life through abortion and discarded embryos is a horror is not based upon the amount of suffering the aborted child experiences but is based upon the innate humanity of that child.

reply from: Faramir

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?

reply from: Utilitarian

That is my intent about prolifers. You make it sound like the suffering the children I deal with is here and gone. I think that the HORROR they feel is 100X worse then being aborted. I think being beaten everyday by your mother then being thrown into the feezer to die might be worse.

reply from: Utilitarian

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?
Yes. You say kill someone I say a legal abortion of a fetus.

reply from: Faramir

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?
Yes. You say kill someone I say a legal abortion of a fetus.
Are you saying this from the perspective of a person who believes the fetus has a soul which would live on in a happier existence?

reply from: Utilitarian

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?
Yes. You say kill someone I say a legal abortion of a fetus.
Are you saying this from the perspective of a person who believes the fetus has a soul which would live on in a happier existence?
I am saying this as a person that sees human evil everyday. I say this because I know what a lifetime of abuse and hate can do. I say this because I hope they will live in happier existence because I see what I hope is hell almost everday.

reply from: Utilitarian

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?
Yes. You say kill someone I say a legal abortion of a fetus.
Are you saying this from the perspective of a person who believes the fetus has a soul which would live on in a happier existence?
If you want to see what I think about your god and soul talk, Suicide Silence has a great song named Unanswered.

reply from: Faramir

But all of us go through hell to some extent.
And some people go through very horrible things and then find a way out and live wonderful lives.
If you think an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells, that's one thing, but if you believe it kills a human person with a body and a soul--then it's not your business or mine to play god and intentionally send them to a "better place."
Deledud people have killed their entire family and themselves using the same reasoning.

reply from: 4choice4all

I hear what you are saying utilitarian(can I call you UTI for the sake of ...utilitarianism?). If a woman gives birth to a child and beats and neglects it until it's old enough to be prostituted for drugs and eventually killed by mom's john...would it have been better for the child to have been aborted? Frankly, yes. But what that realization means in normal everyday life...I don't know.

reply from: AshMarie88

Util... are you saying you know what fetuses will be abused and live horrible lives and which will not? Can you really pick and choose? By the way, not every single abused child wants to die.

reply from: Utilitarian

But all of us go through hell to some extent.
And some people go through very horrible things and then find a way out and live wonderful lives.
If you think an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells, that's one thing, but if you believe it kills a human person with a body and a soul--then it's not your business or mine to play god and intentionally send them to a "better place."
Deledud people have killed their entire family and themselves using the same reasoning.
I believe an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells.
Deleduded people have also based their lives off fiction causing war and hate.

reply from: Utilitarian

I didn't say ever abused child wants to die. I said I deal with boys and girls everday that tell me they wish they were dead. Be it that most of these kids are emotionally disturbed still doesn't take away from the fact they hate life and can not see the positive loving side.

reply from: 4choice4all

Good point Faramir. I don't believe in a soul or afterlife. And I agree that going through hell can be a part of life...look at Dave Pelzer/ A child called It. I'm an eternal optimist....I have the phrase "Dum Spiro, Spero" tattooed on my body...I'm not a tattoo freak but it's practically a religious creed for me...while I breath, I hope.(I had it before Obama's election night speech,lol) I'm more concerned about allowing women to make that choice because of how the pregnancy is effecting their life. When we talk about aborting to prevent later abuse...that requires some psychic intuition that I do not possess nor do I believe anyone else has that ability..not even Sylvia Browne.

reply from: Utilitarian

No I do not know what fetuses will be abused. I can tell you that some people that want an abortion should have one. Drug addicts, alcoholics, prostitutes, pedophiles. Extremely religious (one of the top signs of sexual abuse is over religious.) Just a list of people who should at least consider it.

reply from: Faramir

But all of us go through hell to some extent.
And some people go through very horrible things and then find a way out and live wonderful lives.
If you think an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells, that's one thing, but if you believe it kills a human person with a body and a soul--then it's not your business or mine to play god and intentionally send them to a "better place."
Deledud people have killed their entire family and themselves using the same reasoning.
I believe an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells.
Deleduded people have also based their lives off fiction causing war and hate.
You previously said it had a "soul" that would go to a better place.
What did you mean by that.

reply from: Utilitarian

I'm with you. I am just trying to understand why more religious right and pro life people are not foster parents. I can tell you out of the list of parents I know, all pro choice, and most do not have a religious affiliation.

reply from: Utilitarian

But all of us go through hell to some extent.
And some people go through very horrible things and then find a way out and live wonderful lives.
If you think an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells, that's one thing, but if you believe it kills a human person with a body and a soul--then it's not your business or mine to play god and intentionally send them to a "better place."
Deledud people have killed their entire family and themselves using the same reasoning.
I believe an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells.
Deleduded people have also based their lives off fiction causing war and hate.
You previously said it had a "soul" that would go to a better place.
What did you mean by that.
was trying to say that abortion isn't always bad. If you think their soul goes to a happier place so be it. I will hope that is true but I don't believe it.

reply from: 4choice4all

Most of my social workers were contracted by the state through Catholic Charities. I would guess a fair amount of the foster families I met were religious. I have two good friends that adopted through foster care...one was an atheist, the other was a methodist sunday school director. I haven't had the same experiences you did. As a matter of fact, one of my most interesting training sessions was about dealing with sexually abused children. There were about 10 foster parents/families and we were discussing what is normal sexual urges in children and what actions are not.(basically, a lot of masturbation talk) My dh and I were the only ones that were not utterly offended when the people conducting the training said that foster children need to be reminded to masturbate in the privacy of the bathroom or an empty bedroom. The rest were horrified that they were being taught that masturbation was acceptable and normal...and the subject turned to religion real quick. Other than the close friend, I never met a foster parent/family that vocally identified themselves as being non-religious but met many that wore their religion on their sleeve.
I do take issue with people that always scream about the adoption alternative but have never fostered or adopted.

reply from: Shenanigans

Well, then you have more problems then just the child wanting to be dead, you have sh1tty parents.
What happens to those idiots? Do they go to jail? Parenting classes?
Its because of those scum bag parents that I support forced sterilisation for those who abuse children.
What exaclty do you do to help? Do you just talk to these kids, or do you run a foster home facility or help provide systems for parents to learn better skills?
SOciety tells people they can abort their children legally, that they can fob off their responsibilty and walk away from their actions.
Maybe its time society woke up and started teaching people a work ethic and decent morals, instead of this have sex and then kill the resulting child BS.

reply from: Shenanigans

You stand on a slippery slope when you imply its better to be dead then be born into a life of abuse. Your argument could be used to justify the "merciful" killing of babies who are unwanted and a possible burden on the state.

reply from: yoda

That's okay. I believe you are a mindless blob of cells.

reply from: yoda

No you're not. You're trying to convince us that "prenatal euthanasia" is a valid reason to justify any elective abortion by a person in the lower economic class. You are trying to condemn to death the unborn children of such parents by their position in society.

reply from: AshMarie88

I'm with you. I am just trying to understand why more religious right and pro life people are not foster parents. I can tell you out of the list of parents I know, all pro choice, and most do not have a religious affiliation.
LOL! I love your ASSumptions!

reply from: AshMarie88

I didn't say ever abused child wants to die. I said I deal with boys and girls everday that tell me they wish they were dead. Be it that most of these kids are emotionally disturbed still doesn't take away from the fact they hate life and can not see the positive loving side.
And one of the reasons you support abortion is because you think fetuses will grow up living horrible lives and being abused, or some. My question was how do you know which fetuses out of the bunch will be abused and which ones will not?

reply from: ProInformed

Do you have any problem with the fact that pro-abort males DO TELL females what to do with their bodies AND with their innocent babies' bodies?
Do you have any problem with the fact that pro-abort males murder pregnant females who refuse to abort?
Do you have any problem with the fact that pro-abort male child molesters rely on the ILLEGAL cooperation of the abortion clinics they take their underage female victims to so they can get away with and continue to molest their victims?
Do you have any problem with the males who profit from the porn and prostitution industries forcing their female 'employees' to abort so they can get their 'product' ready for 'service' again?
I am a feminist female and I have major issues with any male who makes excuses about allowing females and babies to be treated the way the abortion industry and pro-abort males treat them!
You may be a male but IMHO as long as you stand by and allow women and babies to be harmed by other males, you are not a man.

reply from: ProInformed

So you think it would be better to just fatally abuse ALL the children who MIGHT end up being abused someday?
BTW where did you get your training in child abuse prevention?
Because the training I got from the Parents Anonymous program that I was trained to be a volunteer with EMPHASIZED that child abuse is NOT caused by the child being 'unwanted/unplanned'. The most common cause of child abuse is the abuser having been abused in their own childhood, WAR - World of Abnormal Rearing. Statistically they are more likely to want children, less likely to abort, and more likely to name their children after themselves. The instructors stressed that even if abusers don't have children themselves, they will seek out children to abuse.
And guess what the other major factors are? The abuser failing to acknowledge the humanity of their victim (dehumanization), justifying the abuse because they believed the victim was not yet fully capable of feeling or comprehending the abuse, justifying the abuse for selfish, sick narcissistic reasons such as self-pleasure, and having unrealistic expectations of their victim's abilities which they use to justify 'punishing' the victim or 'protecting' themselves from their victims 'parasitic' infringement on their own selfish desires.
In other words those who commit fatal acts of abuse against innocent preborn babies do so for the same sort of reasons child abuse acts are committed against children after they are born.
You come here chanting the usual pro-abort excuses, claiming to defend the brutal and barbaric killing of innocent unborn babies because you care about the victims of violent abuse...
People who really do care about victims of child abuse at least learn the real causes and solutions to child abuse, and do not use the victims of child abuse to defend the fatal child abuse of abortion.
If you really do work in child abuse prevention, or in any way work with children victimized by abuse, you need to learn much more and maybe take a break to recover from burn-out.
Your attitude is no more caring, helpful, or appropriate than it would be for a person who is working for the humane society to be criticizing volunteers at a no-kill animal shelter while defending those who drown baby kittens!

reply from: ProInformed

utilitarian - before we get into any more debate over your defending your status quo POV of abortion, and what your criticizing what you assume is the POV of the pro-life posters here, it would be a good idea to first establish your level of knowledge concerning abortion and the surrounding issues. How well-informed is your POV? On a scale of 1-10 how well-informed would you say you are regarding abortion and related facts?
How many different types of abortion techniques do you know about?
Describe in detail how each is performed.
Can you name the other abortion-related U.S. Supreme Court decision from the same day as Roe v Wade and the effect it had on the legal status of third trimester abortions for non-medical reasons?
Who said:
"Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save life." ?
Name one of the women who has been killed by a so-called 'safe & simple' legal abortion since Roe v Wade:
Who said (about abortion):
"Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!" ?
Name the ONLY feminist group to support Laci and Connor's Law, also known as the Unborn Victims of Violence Act:
Who said:
"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." ?
What does BAIPA stand for?
Who said:
"I have three sisters with breast cancer, and I resent people messing with scientific data to further their own agenda, be they pro-choice or pro-life. I would have loved to have found no association between breast cancer and abortion, but our research is rock solid, and our data [are] accurate. It's not a matter of believing. It's a matter of what is." ?
How many days after conception does an unborn baby have fingers and toes?

reply from: carolemarie

Actually if the child had been adopted would have been the best solution, then they wouldn't have been abused and would be living happy lives....
there is something wrong with the thinking "abortion would have been better than this..when adoption would have been the win=win situtation.' ask yourself why you automatically went to death would have been better when the truth is that adoption (life) would have been the best solution....
it seems that as a society we jump to death as a better alternative to life.....

reply from: sheri

excellent point, sheeny, it does not help the abused to go around saying they were better off if they had been killed before birth.
Helping out with foster care is a wonderful vocation if it is done for the love of the child, however I think we should still be allowed to work toward an end to abortion even if we cant also adopt, after all abortion is the ultimate child abuse.
Also child abuse rates have gone up since abortion was legalized. I believe it is because there is a lack of respect for humane life, especially the most defenceless.

reply from: nancyu

And I believe....
...killing you would do the exact same thing.
Maybe not. Maybe you are just dulededed.

reply from: yoda

ONLY the proabort, baby killing segment of our society.....

reply from: iCelebr8Life

UTI after re-reading your original post on this thread, I see you are a compassionate person wanting to end abuse. You are frustrated that you see so much is being done to stop abortion and not enough being done to stop abuse, especially by pro-lifers that claim life is so precious.
It appears that you are not advocating aborting a baby so that it doesn't get abused. You are merely saying that the aborted are not suffering after the abortion and the abused suffer continuously. You and I do agree that aborted babies don't suffer post abortion.
Your lamentations about child abuse have been heard. I admit I am in no position financially or otherwise to adopt or foster a child or to give birth to a child. If I were raped and gave birth, I would have to give the baby to another mother.
I am much better equipped to educate mothers about their unused eggs and their own preciousness as well as the preciousness of the human life she is carrying and resources for her and baby whether she keeps him or gives him up for adoption.

reply from: lukesmom

I have to say I am suprised there are actualy abused and unwanted kids in the USA. Afterall, abortion was supposed to "prevent" that. Wasn't and isn't it "every child a wanted child"? Guess abortion failed on that subject.
So...now we are told, again, we should kill everyone prenatally who might be abused sometime after birth. I am very glad you are doing all you can to help these unwanted and abused children. They really need love and care but to assume most prolifers and religious people don't do, what you see, as their share is very foolish on your part. Hmmm, Methidests in this town have a WONDERFUL food pantry and provide clothing too and the Catholics provide anything needed to anyone who can't afford food, clothing, furnature, shelter, etc through St Vincent De Pauls. Then there are the people like my mom who have given their lives to collecting and providing everything needed to raise a child. I can't begin to tell you the number of adoptive an foster families in our church. No, I haven't adopted or fostered, have 4 of my own and while I could love more, just plain can't stack more in although, no kid who has shown up at my door has ever been turned away. No pregnant or needy mom has ever gone away empty handed either and never will.
Not every abused and/or unwanted child becomes a "bad" nonproductive, unhappy suicidal addicted adult. I would be willing to bet most turn their lives around and become happy productive adults. In the past few years, my dad finally started talking about the abuse he recieved at the hands of his alcoholic father and then the priests at the boarding school he was sent to. I am amazed at his courage to make the active choice NOT to continue down the distructive path his father started him on. He is not unlike other abuse victems except he didn't have counciling or social workers or other do gooders telling him how hard his life was (like he didn't already know) or that dying was preferrable to living.
I will add, my dad is one of the most loving, interesting, law abiding and religious individuals I have had the pleasure to meet. Doesn't hurt that I am daddy's oldest little girl, even at 50 yrs old!
While I understnad your frustrations, I see a lot of prejudiced generalizations in your comments which, I hope, resolve with a little prolife education!

reply from: 4given

So only your offspring is worthy of that notion? Have you met any post-abortive men that had their fatherhood taken from them?
Yeah.. Life is not always as pleasant for many of those around us. Sex abuse and fatality.. worse than being born?! I understand why you may think that these women who chose to birth their children would be justified in ending their lives by abortion.. thing is you aren't talking about why it would be best to snuff em out, one dismembered part by another.. you are talking about alleged living children.. maybe to forego their future suffering- they should be dismembered as well? What, if any justification were you trying to slop down?
Well you need to leave your Mommies house for that.. How would you know which families you see as you pass them on the street that do so? Does your family? Do you?
Excellent.. Are you? Well I have been troublingly forgetful lately.. none of my physical issues have robbed me of simple morality.... I suppose the pretend-a-punch to an environmental abortion justification from soon to be family may be blamed on the three you listed..

reply from: faithman

ONLY the proabort, baby killing segment of our society.....
She would know having done the deed three times, and justifing the slaughter with falsehood.

reply from: Hosea

I am prolife and I am in the last couple weeks of the long 9 month process of becoming a foster parent. Abortion has had a negative effect on child abuse. Child abuse has risen over 1000% since 1973 roe vs Wade decision. It treats children like property who can be abused and disposed of as any parent wishes because they belong to the parent. This mentality has lead to more abuse. It also has lead to more abuse for females. Who can have theur uterus cleaned out over and over again to help males be irresponsible and sometimes hide the abuse of young women. Abortion has truely hurt the feminist movement by making the unencumbered male the ideal human for society. Women who are pregnant need to empty their wombs to be considered equal with males, thanks to legal abortion.
Over 2 million couples don't get to adopt each year because there are not enough babies to adopt. There are 1.3 million abortions each year. There are parents for these children. With infertility increasing the need for adoptable children will only increase.
I believe abortion hurts the mother as well as the child.
Women who have had an abortion are 50% more likely to develop breast cancer.
28 out of 37 studies have shown

24.3% of women will have complications in future pregnancies due to abortion.
Acta/ obstetrics and Gynecology

The risk of having a tubal pregnancy after one abortion is 30%, 160% after 2 or more abortions.
American Journal of public health.

The risk of Placenta Previa increase 600% after an abortion.
American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology

There is a 200% increased risk of miscarriage after an abortion.
AMA Journal

50% of Women who have an abortion have experienced emotional and psychological disturbances.
British journal of OB/GYN

reply from: ProInformed

The FACT that adoption is an option, the non-violent option, the win-win option...
is ignored BECAUSE the real reason most abortions happen have little to nothing to do with concern for the innocent baby, whether or not they might be abused someday; MOST abortions are motivated by one or more of the biological parents of the baby wanting the pregnancy ended ASAP for selfish and cosmetic reasons. After all, adoption IS an option so ending the pregnancy just because the bio parents don't want to parent their baby obviously is NOT the real reason most abortions happen. ALL pregnancies eventually end... pro-aborts insist on an abortion ASAP becuase they are too selfish to even respond non-violently to their own babies and to shelter their babies for a few months.
And since abortion is in fact fatal abuse of a totally innocent and totally helpless preborn human baby, OBVIOUSLY the pretense that wanting to save the baby from maybe being abused someday is a blatant lie to distract attention away from the selfish, irresponsible, cruel, and shameful REAL REASONS behind most abortions.

reply from: yoda

I don't know who "we" is, but I can tell you personally that I really don't care what YOU think.

reply from: yoda

Yes, that is obvious to every honest person. And to the dishonest ones, too, but they just won't admit it.

reply from: ProInformed

utilitarian if you really cared about victims of child abuse you would care enough to learn the facts. We have chanting choicists comeing here all the time who don't know what they're talking about and who don't care enough to LEARN the facts.
Child abuse has INCREASED DRASTICALLY since the leglaization of abortion, not in spite of abortion, but BECAUSE the pro-abort mindset that has become more widespread in our society, the exact same attitudes promoted by the aboriton industry are the type of thinking employed by child abusers.
I have worked with child abuse prevention and was warned that any callers who made comments that they believed children are not developed or conscience enough yet to feel or care about being abused needed to be reported IMMEDIATELY! But pro-aborts use those sort of arguments routinely, don't they?
The type of thinking that promotes abortion is the same type of thinking that increases child abuse in general.
If you really cared or knew about child abuse you would stop parroting abortion industry myths about abortion supposedly being a solution to child abuse.
LEARN the TRUTH.
Chanting choicists claiming concern but in reality not even taking the time to learn the facts is shameful exploitation of victims of child abuse.

reply from: ProInformed

Nobody is going to believe your claimed concern for childrenis genuine if you have never even bothered to learn about the REAL causes and solutions to child abuse.
Legalized abortion did NOT solve the problem of child abuse as promised.
The exact same mindset and justifications that are used to defend fatally abusing totally innocent babies before (and sometimes right after) birth are the same mindset and justifications child abusers use to harm older already born children.
Promoting and defending prenatal child abuse in a society INCREASES postnatal child abuse in that society.
Those who REALLY care about victims of child abuse don't exploit the children who are abused after birth in order to justify children being fatally abused before birth.
ALL children deserve REAL concern instead of claimed concern for some children as an excuse to kill other children.

reply from: ProInformed

Maybe you should focus on why the child wants to be dead.
Maybe society should shut its pro-abortion yap and stop giving children the message they are only worth something if they are wanted by their biological parents.
Ah but those who only feign concern for victims of child abuse, so they can defend the fatal abuse inflicted on innocent unborn babies, probably don't really have a problem with already born children hearing and being harmed by pro-abort comments, do they? After all, child abuse being increased by the legalization of abortion, and by the pro-abort attitudes becoming more widespread and more accepted in society, and then leading to more children feeling worthless and suicidal... just gives the pro-aborts even more excuses to defend abortions, right?
It's not for nothing that the pro-aborts constantly bring up child abuse as one of their favorite excuses to defend the legalized slaughter of innocent preborn babies.
And why would they stop chanting the pro-abort atttiudes that lead more children to become suicidal? Why would they take the time to learn the REAL causes and cures for child abuse?
After all, if child abuse decreased, and children were assured their lives were worth living, that would just deprive the pro-aborts of allowing them to pretend they're 'helping' children by making sure they die a gruesome death prenatally. Of course pro-aborts are going to pretend they defend abortions for some supposed noble reason instead of admitting that they really defend abortion for selfishly cruel reasons.

reply from: ProInformed

You are right. I don't blame their thoughts on wanting to be aborted. I blame their thoughts on their parents and their abusers (most of the time the parents). Many of the times a child is abused by the parents because the parents lay blame on the child for wasting their life and not allowing them to live their life to the fullest so they take their anger out on that child.
I feel there are things that are much worse then not being born.

reply from: ProInformed

"I blame their thoughts on their parents and their abusers (most of the time the parents). Many of the times a child is abused by the parents because the parents lay blame on the child for wasting their life and not allowing them to live their life to the fullest so they take their anger out on that child."
So instead of advocating that the victims of child abuse, PLUS thousands of babies who are aborted per day who probably never even would have become child abuse victims, be savagely KILLED by abortion...
why aren't you condemning the selfish attitudes that lead to BOTH prenatal and postnatal abuse?
The pro-aborts argue that parents having to make some normal, responsible, humane sacrifices for one's own children is something that justifies KILLING those innocent children, right?
The legalization of abortion and the parroting of pro-abort arguments INCREASE child abuse in a society.
Your fatally abuse them earlier argument is not only lame, it further promotes child abuse.
There ARE people who believe the type of 'thinking' you are irresponsibly helping to spread in society, they have become convinced that child abuse itself is not wrong, that the children don't deserve protection from child abusers and child abuse promoting atitudes, that the children are 'parasitic' burdens that parents should be allowed to kill, that abusing children at a younger age is more acceptable than abusing older children...
You are NOT arguing against child abuse, NOT opposin child abuse promoting atitudes; you are arguing that it is more acceptable to fatally abuse THOUSANDS of innocent unborn babies per day than to take the chance that a small percentage of those babies might someday experience some level of abuse in their lifetime?!? Well, why don't you tell us how many newborns we should kill to maybe save some toddlers from being abused? How many toddlers should be killed, supposedly as a way to prevent teenagers from feeling suicidal? How many college kids should be killed to 'save' them form maybe someday being victims of elder abuse? BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY killing thousands of innocent babies per day before birth isn't 'helping enough' to 'prevent child abuse' is it?

Again - child abuse has INCREASED since the legalization of abortion - so maybe just killing THOUSANDS of unborn babies per day for 3 1/2 decades isn't enough according to your kill 'em all and kill' em younger 'solution' to child abuse, eh? The fact is every single child child who was born in the US after Roe v Wade could have been fatally abused before birth. The children who are being abused today, the teens who feel suicidal today, you feel should have been KILLED at an earlier age ALONG WITH EVEN MORE OF THEIR PEERS WHO NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABUSED IF THEY HADN'T BEEN ABORTED? and that fatal abuse would be OK with you, what you call 'prevention' of child abuse?!? The teens who are alive today had ONE OUT OF THREE OR FOUR of their siblings and peers KILLED by abortion! You believe that THE reason SOME of the survivors of the abortion holocaust have been abused or feel suicidal is because MORE of their siblings and peers weren't FATALLY ABUSED before birth?
You basically AGREE WITH and PROMOTE the abusers' justifications for killing children, born and unborn, you openly advocate for even more than one in three or four children being fatally abused before birth in spite of the FACT that increased prenatal fatal abuse of children in a society has the effect of increasing postnatal child abuse in a society.
IF you really cared about children you would LEARN the facts about child abuse, including the facts about abortion - fatal prenatal child abuse.
It is disgustingly shameful to pretend concern for children so you can defend them being KILLED by abortionists.

reply from: yoda

Ah, so there's a "facts club", right? Is that a fact, really?

reply from: yoda

Being disgusting has never affected them before, why should it now?

reply from: ProInformed

Utilitarian it is blatantly obvious that you are ignorant about the real causes and curse of child abuse. That ignorance indicates your claimed concern for victims of child abuse is probably just an excuse to defend abortion.
If you lack the genuine concern and courage to LEARN about abortion and child abuse then your mindless mumbling of worn out abortion industry myths won't help any children.
Since you didn't know the answers to any of the questions I asked you,
it can be logically concluded that on a scale of 1-10 you are not well-informed;
since you didn't even have the courage to go and search for the answers online,
it can be logically concluded that you also lack the courage and integrity to become well-informed.
You are just another ignorant and/or dishonest chanting choicist trying to pass yourself off as somebody who cares.

reply from: ProInformed

That is my intent about prolifers. You make it sound like the suffering the children I deal with is here and gone. I think that the HORROR they feel is 100X worse then being aborted. I think being beaten everyday by your mother then being thrown into the feezer to die might be worse.
You are leaving out the FACT that MOST of the thousands of innocent babies who are barbarically and brutally killed by abortionists per day never would have become foster children or abused if they had not been fatally abused before birth.
You are myopically and dishonestly EXPLOITING the fate of the small percentage of children who are abused, further focusing deceptively only on the even smaller percentage of those children who were severely abused, as an excuse for KILLING THOUSANDS of children, MOST of whom never would have been abused at all.
Killing the POTENTIAL victims of abuse before they MIGHT be abused is NOT a solution to abuse, let alone a supposedly humane solution.
BTW do you also ignorantly and cruelly advocate the killing of females in general as a way to prevent them from maybe someday becoming victims of spousal abuse? Do you advocate the killing of college kids to 'save' them from maybe someday being victims of elder abuse? Do you advocate the killing of homosexuals at a young age to 'protect' them from maybe someday becoming victims of violent hate-crimes?
IMHO you don't sound as if you genuinely care about the victims of child abuse at all. You want to exploit the victims of postnatal child abuse in order to defend prenatal child abuse. There are a few logical reasons fo doing that - none of which reflect a genuine concern for child abuse victims - born or unborn.
Maybe you're just ignorant about the real causes and cures of child abuse?
(But anyone with a genuine concern about victims of child abuse would make the effort to LEARN so they could be more effective at really helping children...)
Maybe you are so burned out and discouraged (um because your efforts are ineffective BECAUSE the pro-abort attitudes you promote are making the child abuse problem worse) that your logical thinking skills have been diminished to the point that you actually believe killing MORE and MORE babies, MOST of which NEVER would experience any level of child abuse if they were born, is somehow the way to stop child abuse. If you truly are so burned-out that you believe the answer is to fatally abuse LOTS of babies, including babies that would otherwise be safe from abuse, is the solution, then you REALLY SHOULD take a break until your sanity resumes!!!!
Maybe your claimed concern for children isn't genuine, or not as deep as your concern about protecting 'abortion rights' and the 'free sex' lifestyle?
Or maybe you are employed in the abortion industry and the only problem you have with children being abused after birth is that you didn't get to make money from killing them before birth?
Nothing you have posted so far proves you have a genuine interest in really reducing child abuse. Because in reality you defend THOUSANDS of acts of fatal abuse being inflicted on innocent babies per day, don't you?

reply from: yoda

Watch out..... Faramir gets real, real indignant when folks stick the "verbal knife" into others........no, wait, that's only if it's one of his buddies or himself... carry on with your verbal knifing.....

reply from: ProInformed

Utilitarian if you really do care about children and really do want to fight child abuse LEARN more about child abuse, abortion, and the connection between the two.
I used to be a choicer and just like you I was under the false impression that legalized abortion helped reduce child abuse. I volunteered with a chld prevention organization where I was taught that abortion does NOT prevent child abuse! I was shocked to hear this because I knew the organization was not anti-abortion, and had always been assured (um by other people as misinformed as I was before that and by some who were deliberately lying) that abortion is a 'solution' to child abuse. Of course being the chanting choicist that I was back then I argued with the instructors, insisting they must be wrong and that defending abortion was a good way to 'help' prevent chidlrne from being abused...
To my surprise they provided PROOF that child abuse had increased drastically since the legalization of abortion and PROOF that studies had shown that a pregnancy being 'unplanned' or even 'unwanted' was NOT an indicator that child would have an increased chance of being abused. In fat they said that all the studies that had been trying to confirm that child abuse was caused by the baby being 'unplanned/unwanted' had actually shown the opposite - that children who are abused are more likely to have been planned/wanted!
They then went on to teach the REAL causes and REAL preventions of child abuse AND they stressed that any volunteers who did not learn and acknowledge the real causes of child abuse would be ineffective and counterproductive at stopping child abuse.
BTW, one of the major reasons adults abuse children is because they have unrealistic and innapropriate expectations of their victim's abilities, viewing the child as 'guilty' of needing to be cared for, of being 'parasitic' or 'bad' if they cry when hungry, etc. THAT IS consistent with pro-abort arguments for fatally abusing babies before birth, isn't it?
Your belief that because some children are victims of child abuse, more children should be fatally abused before, during, or right after birth shows no real compassion for the victims of child abuse and no real confrontation or condemnation towards the adult perpetrators of child abuse. Your objection basically is just that the abusers should pay somebody to fatally abuse their children before birth instead of doing it themselves after birth. Your objection is not really that the abuse should not happen at all, that the abusers shoudl not be abusing children at all... but that in your opinion there is such a thing as a socially accepted time and place to commit the abuse, and ensuring that the abuse is fatal.

reply from: nancyu

Utilitarian, there are some really great posts above. There should be plenty in here to help you understand why we are pro life.
Are you really trying?

reply from: 4choice4all

Correlation doesn't not prove causation......IF (proof please?) child abuse rates have gone up since RvW that doesn't automatically make abortion the reason. We've seen an increase in drug use, an increase in reporting, an increase in standards and raising the bar as to what constitutes abuse, teen pregnancy rates rise.

reply from: Yuuki

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Federal "Mandatory Reporter" standards were passed in '73 and '75.
Yep, I'm a mandatory reporter because I work in a public service: a school. Doctors and nurses are also mandatory reporters, which is why it's so illegal and awful when clinic counselors and nurses and doctors don't report cases of rape

reply from: 4choice4all

Excellent point spinwiddy( I also am tempted to call you spinderella)

reply from: yoda

Has she ever talked trash about YOUR abortion?
No one can throw the slime like you can, slimewiddy.

reply from: Shenanigans

I'm going to have to go have a look for it, but years ago they had a thing on the news in NZl talking about a study done in New Zealand that found women who had an abortion were more likely to abuse any subsquent children they have or children they already have. It even found that women who had kids, treated them well, then had an abortion, would abuse those first kids.
There was more to it, but I can't remember, and I'm going to have do a search for it. It stirred up quite a bit of mischeif, but I remember the abortion rights groups down here couldn't fault the research.

reply from: Shenanigans

Induced Abortion and Child-Directed Aggression Among Mothers of Maltreated Children
http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_internet_journal_of_pediatrics_and_neonatology/volume_6_number_2_15/article/induced_abortion_and_child_directed_aggression_among_mothers_of_maltreated_children-8.html

Results: Abortion history was associated with more frequently maternal slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment in general.
--
Intrapersonal Processes and Post-Abortion Relationship Challenges: A Review and Consolidation of Relevant Literature
http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_internet_journal_of_mental_health/volume_5_number_1_46/article/intrapersonal_processes_and_post_abortion_relationship_challenges_a_review_and_consolidation_of_relevant_literature.html

--

reply from: Cecilia

i would like to have seen the first study utilizing women of all socioeconomic classes, and also/or a comparative study done which indicates the level of abuse across all economic classes regardless of abortive status.
the second study did not indicate level of abuse towards children by post abortive women.
interesting studies thanks for the links.

reply from: BossMomma

Are you implying it would be better to kill someone to spare them the pain of living?
Actually, if I were an end stage cancer patient and someone offered to put me out of my misery they would have my blessing to do so. However, psychological pain and physical pain are two very different things.

reply from: BossMomma

But all of us go through hell to some extent.
And some people go through very horrible things and then find a way out and live wonderful lives.
If you think an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells, that's one thing, but if you believe it kills a human person with a body and a soul--then it's not your business or mine to play god and intentionally send them to a "better place."
Deledud people have killed their entire family and themselves using the same reasoning.
I believe an abortion destroys a mindless blob of cells.
Deleduded people have also based their lives off fiction causing war and hate.
A fetus is hardly a mindless blob of cells, that is simply what abortion reduces the child to. A child can be aborted electively at 24 weeks in my state, that baby is viable, do you think that child is a mindless blob of cells too? Who is deluded here? You have to lie to yourself just to justify your stance.

reply from: carolemarie

I think that story is a crock. Women who have abortions are not more likely to abuse future children. That is crazy.
Lots of religious people abuse children too! So do pagans and non-believers .

reply from: Shenanigans

They weren't the study I was after, but they were all I could find at the moment.
But I think a really broad study would be good, as you say, one that is inclusive of women of all "classes", would a "poorer" women be more likely to abuse her children regardless of abortions? Would higher educated women be less likely to abuse due to education regarding other child rearing measures, or would a series of abortions make her more likely to abuse?
Man, I wish people would just get over this issue being so contentious and just study it instead of pissing about trying to avoid not hurting people's feelings or ticking off either side of the arguement.

reply from: Shenanigans

The research is slowly starting to prove otherwise...
I mean, is it any surprise that child abuse rates have skyrocketed along side the increase in abortion numbers?

reply from: yoda

No surprise at all. When unborn child slaughter is public policy, can abuse of born children be so far away? I wonder how many women look at their "problem children" and say to themselves "I should have killed you when I had the chance"?

reply from: Cecilia

They weren't the study I was after, but they were all I could find at the moment.
But I think a really broad study would be good, as you say, one that is inclusive of women of all "classes", would a "poorer" women be more likely to abuse her children regardless of abortions? Would higher educated women be less likely to abuse due to education regarding other child rearing measures, or would a series of abortions make her more likely to abuse?
Man, I wish people would just get over this issue being so contentious and just study it instead of pissing about trying to avoid not hurting people's feelings or ticking off either side of the arguement.
i think that also studying what the belief system are of women who get abortions - typically more liberal - versus those who do not - more conservative - and look at how each group disciplines their children.
aren't more liberal minded women the ones who are less likely to use a belt? or does that depend on education level...and does it depend on geographic location?
there are so many factors I don' think you can really say this yet:
The research is slowly starting to prove otherwise

reply from: yoda

Still waiting for that answer, Cecilia.

reply from: ProInformed

It's not the ONLY factor but it IS a factor.
Now that does not mean that ALL women who fatally abuse their unborn babies will also abuse their born babies, or that ALL child abusers had abortions...
Conversely just because there are aborters who don't abuse born children,
and child abusers who did not have abortions, that does not disprove that having had an abortion is a factor increasing a woman's likelihood to commit postnatal child abuse.
The child abuse prevention and intervention training I went through stated that child abuse had increased since the legalization of abortion, and again this was not a pro-life organization. The same attitudes and justifications abusers use are also employed to excuse abortion; choicist groups, politicians, and citizens have been actively promoting and defending the sort of thinking that leads to the child abuser mindset. I didn't want to believe them and said surely some other factors had caused the sharp increase in child abuse since Roe v Wade... but they went through the other factors in the class, things like the bauser having been abused in their own childhood, drugs, alcohol, lack of parenting skills, etc. and stated that although some of those factors change over the years, none of them had changed so much as to explain the sharp increase in child abuse since Roe v Wade.
Again, just because some aborting females do not become child abusers, that does not disprove that some aborting females do have an increased tendency to become abusers of born children. I personally know several females who've had abortions, some who went on to become great moms to their living children, some who definitely have problems bonding and mothering. And of the ones who did become good moms, MOST became pro-life, mothering changed their pro-abort POV, they realized that clinging to the por-abort POV would interfere with them becoming the kind of mother they wanted to be.
Of course there are exceptions, some choicists I know seem to be loving moms (to their living children anyway), some pro-lifers I know are not exactly the best moms... but the majority of the choicists I know clearly continue to see their children as an imposition on them, while the majority of pro-lifers I know are happy to put their children first.

Some choicers seem capable of compartmentalizing in order to cling to the concept of their dead babies having been just parasite's while loving their born babies... or struggle with trying to keep their feelings towards their aborted and born babies separate.

reply from: yoda

Which requirements are those? The ones that PP and many other abortion mills ignore totally, and get away with it?

reply from: yoda

Naw, not really....... there has been a great deal of work done lately on proving what I just alleged. Try this link: http://www.liveactionfilms.org/

reply from: Rosalie

Infanticide is acceptable and commonplace in our society? Since when?

reply from: carolemarie

The research is slowly starting to prove otherwise...
I mean, is it any surprise that child abuse rates have skyrocketed along side the increase in abortion numbers?
Child abuse victims are WANTED children. They were had for all the wrong reasons and punished because they didn't make the parent happy....it has nothing to do with abortion....

reply from: carolemarie

Yes that is true that we changed all of that.
Back in the 1960s and early 1970's lots of children lived in total horror....read
A Boy Called It......horrible story of child abuse that went on and the school was aware of it, but the mother got away with it because nobody reported her....
mandatory reporting laws save lives and resuce children....

reply from: 4given

I think it isn't always appropriate to generalize unless one is willing to state that it is their opinion.. I know I am guilty of the same.. Surely not all "child abuse victims are wanted children"..Physical abuse is what most think of, but there are certainly more ways to abuse a child.. neglect due to one's method of "medicating" post abortion is also likely..

reply from: yoda

How often do these kids tell you that they "want to die"? Or, if a teenager has a crush on someone who dumps them, and say they "want to die", do you seek to help them die?
Does that apply to adults as well, or do you only wish to see kids die?

reply from: yoda

If people have enough time to post here in support of abortion, they ought to have enough time to help every charity in the world, or at least in their state, right?
And those inconsiderate people who are helping kids but not helping elderly people ought to be ashamed of themselves, right? They should stop helping kids unless they can help everyone, right?
Do you ever make any sense?

reply from: yoda

You are also a liar:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - pro·a·bor·tion - adjective: PROCHOICE http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proabortion&r=66

Proabortion: PROCHOICE http://dictionary.infoplease.com/proabortion

reply from: yoda

But not in YOUR life, right? You're down with killing others because you think THEIR life might be "worse than death", but NOT YOUR LIFE, right?
You may have the moral right to make that decision about YOUR life, but NEVER do you have the moral right to make that decision about anyone else's life.
You may have their blood on your hands if you do.

reply from: yoda

So then why not lead a crusade for mass suicide of everyone who is Christian?
If we're all better off dead and going to Heaven, why not encourage everyone who's bound for there to kill themselves?

reply from: yoda

And yet, you've never died, have you? And you're not going to volunteer to die and come back and tell us about it, are you?
No, you're just going to recommend that OTHERS die because you say they're "better off dead", right?
If it's good enough for OTHERS, why not for YOU?

reply from: yoda

What is the REAL difference between those two statements?

reply from: yoda

That's not YOUR decision to make IN ADVANCE, is it?
Do you really set yourself up as the PREDICTOR of LIVES?
Or do you let each person make their own life and death decisions? Their OWN CHOICES, in other words?

reply from: yoda

Use whatever derogatory terminology you wish, but do you deny that every human embryo and fetus IS a human being?
And what makes YOU more than a "blob of cells", by the way?

reply from: yoda

IF you actually knew accurate numbers on that subject, how would that affect the morality of elective abortion?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, and what about all those screamers who scream about saving the whales, or the seals, or the turtles, or the salamanders, but never adopt one? Don't they just tick you off?
Oh, and not to mention those inconsiderate fire fighters who save people from burning buildings, but then don't bother to adopt them? Isn't that unforgivable?

reply from: yoda

Because I think there is universal, absolute truth. The truth is the same no matter who you are, or where you are.
And I think that electively killing other innocent human beings is UNIVERSALLY IMMORAL.

reply from: 4choice4all

faulty logic.
I find it hypocritical to scream about saving whales if you are not a vegetarian. The firefighter comparison defies logic...can't help you with that one.

reply from: yoda

Isn't it though? Why, these researchers must ALL be "crazy", right? Well, read it yourself as see just how "crazy" they are, and how "right" you are to always defend abortion against any criticism:
Induced Abortion and Child-Directed Aggression Among Mothers of Maltreated Children
....Conclusions
The purpose of this study was to explore maternal history of induced abortion as a possible variable linked with increased frequency of child physical abuse in a sample of mothers who have either personally mistreated their children or allowed someone else to do so. The findings indicated that women who had an abortion history reported more frequent slapping, hitting, kicking or biting, beating, and use of physical punishment compared to women without an abortion history, after statistical controls were instituted for other forms of perinatal loss and socio-demographic, family of origin, and boyfriend/husband aggressive behaviors identified as significant predictors of the choice to abort.
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijpn/vol6n2/abortion.xml

reply from: yoda

And here's another similar article:
Trauma Symptoms After Abortion Are Common, New Study Shows
Women Attribute Substance Abuse, Sexual Disorders, and Suicidal Thoughts to Abortion
Springfield, IL (November 16, 2004) -- Post-traumatic reactions to induced abortion may be far more common than previously thought, according to a new study published in the Medical Science Monitor. Sixty-five percent of American women studied experienced multiple symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which they attributed to their abortions. Slightly over 14 percent reported all the symptoms necessary for a clinical diagnosis of abortion induced PTSD.
Researchers gathered data from women seeking general health care treatment at clinics and hospitals in both the United States and Russia. Women with a history of pregnancy loss, including miscarriage or abortion, were asked to complete an extensive questionnaire about their experiences.
The subsample used in this study included 331 Russian women and 217 American women. American women were significantly more likely to report traumatic reactions they attributed to their abortions, while Russian women were more likely to report disruption of cognitive schema, which is described as the equivalent of one's "psychological road map" for understanding the world and one's place in it.
Both Russian and American women were more likely to experience negative reactions to abortion if they had prior negative opinions of abortion, felt pressured into unwanted abortions, were more religious, or received little or no counseling prior to the abortion. American women were more likely to report being exposed to one or more of these risk factors. For example, 64 percent of American women felt pressured by others to choose abortion compared to 37 percent of Russian women. In addition, only 25 percent of American women reported receiving adequate counseling prior to their abortions compared to 64 percent of the Russian women.
full article: http://www.afterabortion.org/news/RueTrauma.htm

reply from: yoda

Yes, it is. Your denial does not change a thing.

reply from: yoda

If that were logical, then the fact that millions of people agreed with Hitler would negate any claims that killing Jews was wrong.
You really pin all your moral standards on numbers of people who agree with you?

reply from: yoda

So now you're abandoning your claim that the millions of people who agree with you negate my claim?
You're dropping that claim altogether?

reply from: yoda

No, it doesn't.
It simply means that people disagree about the subject. Morality, in the universal, absolute form, does not depend upon the fickle vagaries of human opinion in order to exist. Universal, absolute morality can exist on it's own, without being acknowledged by human opinion.

reply from: yoda

Then you ought to have him do your posting here for you...... what? He's already doing that now?

reply from: yoda

Do I really need to define "universal" for you?
It does have other meanings than "everyone agrees", ya know? It can also mean "it applies everywhere".
But, do go on inflating your ego, by trying to attack me, you really help our side that way.
Main Entry:
1uni·ver·sal Listen to the pronunciation of 1universal
Pronunciation:
\?yü-n?-?v?r-s?l\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin universalis, from universum universe
Date:
14th century
1: including or covering all or a whole collectively or distributively without limit or exception ; especially : available equitably to all members of a society <universal health coverage>2 a: present or occurring everywhere b: existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions <universal cultural patterns>3 a: embracing a major part or the greatest portion (as of humankind) <a universal state> <universal practices> b: comprehensively broad and versatile <a universal genius>4 a: affirming or denying something of all members of a class or of all values of a variable b: denoting every member of a class <a universal term>5: adapted or adjustable to meet varied requirements (as of use, shape, or size) <a universal gear cutter> <a universal remote control>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/universal

reply from: yoda

No, it hasn't, but thank you for one more insult, one more reason to suspect that all proaborts are insensitive, uncaring people.
"2 a: present or occurring everywhere b: existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions "
This definition does not depend upon fleeting human opinion.

reply from: 4choice4all

"but thank you for one more insult, one more reason to suspect that all proaborts are insensitive, uncaring people. "
seriously? some of those claiming the title of prolife have been the most insulting adults I've ever encountered.

reply from: yoda

That's only because you consider the plain truth to be "insulting".
I'm sure you'd feel insulted if you were an abortionist and someone called you a baby killer, right? And yet, that's what you would be doing for a living.
NO COMMENT on this?
"2 a: present or occurring everywhere b: existent or operative everywhere or under all conditions "
This definition does not depend upon fleeting human opinion.

reply from: 4choice4all

scanc, butt nugget....baby killer hardly registers for me.

reply from: yoda

How about "baby killer"? Does that register?

reply from: 4choice4all

meh.....semantics......

reply from: yoda

Words have meaning. If they did not, why would your tribe work so feverishly to say stupid things like "It's not a baby", and "It's not a person", and "It's not a child", and so on, and so on, and so on........

reply from: 4choice4all

Because we truly don't believe it's a baby, person or child.

reply from: yoda

I find that very, very hard to believe, 4choice. You already know that the dictionaries say they are all those things, and yet you claim to have a belief that has so much more value to you than the traditional value of the dictionary that you will take a life based on that "belief". And what, pray tell, is that "belief" based on? Nothing more than a desire to create a rationalization for killing.
There is no other basis for such a "belief".

reply from: ProInformed

Exactly - the desire to kill a victim creates and supports the sociopathic desire to believe that the victim is not alive, a human, a baby, innocent... whatever justification is employed. THE basis for believing that the victims of abortion are not a baby is the desire to kill them - not merely the other way around.
And THE real reason pro-aborts want to kill babies is because it enables them to pretend that sex is 'free'. They can't allow themselves to acknowledge that they are killing BABIES becuase then they would have to give up their 'free sex' lifestyle and THTA is what is most important to them.

reply from: 4choice4all

I don't believe for one second that you actually believe that everyone person that is prochoice..or at the very least, against criminalizing/banning abortion....is actually blood thirsty killers finding a legal outlet. I don't buy it. You know that they are normal people in your community...they are your teachers, doctors, ministers, therapists, elderly neighbor...and they are NORMAL and loving and sane and they have beautiful families and are vital members of society. You KNOW that...and that's too scary of a proposition to acknowledge...so you keep up with the bloodythirstybuttnuggetscanc theory....to make YOUR motives more palatable.

reply from: carolemarie

Here is the deal-the embryo is a human and it is alive. you guys agree on that. You even agree that at some point it will be a baby, you want to allow abortion based on your opinion that it won't be a baby till birth. What about the day before birth, still okay to terminate?
your opinion is a matter of faith and we need to base the law on scientific fact, and we can't scientifically prove you right or prove me wrong.
erring on the side of caution would seem to be called for

reply from: 4choice4all

If it were as simple as being human and alive....there would be no debate...and every scientists and doctor would be on your side. It's not that simple...it's about "potential" life standing in the way of someone having control over their life's potential.

reply from: carolemarie

it is that simple....
people want to make it complicated so they can do what they want to do. We don't have the right to an easy uncomplicated life at the expense of someone elses life....
pregnancy is a self limiting condition that will end at birth. nobody is advocating forcing women to raise these children as you know so well.
your life will continue if you have a child and place it for adoption. So will the childs. Win win

reply from: 4choice4all

Pregnancy can cause many complications AND implications that do not magically disappear at birth...one being death. No woman should be forced to sacrifice various parts of her life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for anyone else...including a fetus. THAT is choice. If she want's to sacrifice everything to be a mother or to place a child up for adoption...we should fully support that and likewise, I support her decision not to. If pregnancy was an easy 9 months with no repercussions ...consider yourself fortunate. That's not always the case though.

reply from: Yuuki

Abortion ALWAYS causes death. It too can cause many complications AND implications that do not magically disappear after the abortion.

reply from: 4choice4all

So then it's a woman's choice on which risk she wants to take.

reply from: Yuuki

If it were just her body I'd agree 100%. But it's not.

reply from: 4choice4all

the circle of the debate,lol.

reply from: 4choice4all

I've always said it was living and human....I have issues with human being.

reply from: 4choice4all

That sounds like punishing a woman for having sex...well, she asked for it. Consenting to sex isn't consenting to parenthood,imo.

reply from: Yuuki

Not really. The child's body is NOT HERS.

reply from: 4choice4all

Well...you are starting with the assumption that a fetus is the same as a person. Again, this is why the debate is circular.
I agree it's a consequence...and for many women an unpleasant one that they must deal with. And some choose to abort to deal with it.

reply from: 4choice4all

Well now I don't consider a fetus the same as a living spouse. Why is it not a being? Because it's not born, biologically independent and sentient ...that combo of affairs says "person" and "being" to me. Being unborn, biologically dependent and non-sentient say "potential being" and "potential life".

reply from: carolemarie

Ask any woman who has had a miscarriage if she lost a potiental human or if she lost a baby....
we wouldn't be sad if it was just a potiential human, we are sad because our baby died

reply from: lukesmom

You are side stepping what she said. Have you miscarried? I can assure you women grieve the loss of their baby. Is that grief any different if that same child died at 1 hour, 1 day old? Not really.
Here's my question: Why would a prochoice mother grieve the death of her fetus if she miscarried that fetus? Is it because that fetus was wanted? Does that make the difference and make it more "human" or more alive or more of a person? Do you justify the killing of a fetus on the wants and whims of it's mother and not on the fact it is a separate living human being just like you and me although much smaller. Development is not to be considered as we all, throughout our lives, are developing. What say you?

reply from: lukesmom

Yes. Are you new to the abortion issue?
LOL! Actually I wanted to see how honest you are with yourself. So, If a mother is in labor with a full term fetus, she, or a person designated by her, may stick a sissors in his/her head and kill it before it is born and that would be acceptable to you because she wanted to kill her child. Yet if someone did that, without the mother's consent, they would be considered a murder. How do you justify that?

reply from: lukesmom

Yes. Are you new to the abortion issue?
LOL! Actually I wanted to see how honest you are with yourself. So, If a mother is in labor with a full term fetus, she, or a person designated by her, may stick a sissors in his/her head and kill it before it is born and that would be acceptable to you because she wanted to kill her child. Yet if someone did that, without the mother's consent, they would be considered a murder. How do you justify that?
CP's example is the same principle as abortion on demand.

reply from: yoda

Well, there's the second stupidest thing I've read this week.
"Recognized" by who? And how does one "recognize a full potential"?
Don't human being achieve their full potential at adulthood?
Isn't a human fetus a "human"?

reply from: ProInformed

http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa052801a.htm


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