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pro-abortion or pro-choice?

what IS the difference?

by: ProInformed

OK here's a chance for all those who whine that there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice to give some specific examples of which is which.
Is the NAF pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Is PP pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Is lying to women about fetal development in order to sell more abortions pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Is Obama pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Is spinwiddy pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: scopia19822

Pro Choice is simply a nice little euphameism for proabortion. We live in the day of Politically Correctness and dont want to anybody feel bad about themselves so we sugar coat everything. Prochoice and proabortion are the same thing.

reply from: ProInformed

All evidence points to you being correct scopia - there is no difference but some pro-aborts just think 'pro-choice' sounds so much nicer.

reply from: Yuuki

I don't know what that is. However, an entire organization will have within it members of both factions no matter what.
From my experience with them and the majority experience of people who have abortions, I'd call them pro-choice. There are a few bad clinics, but that's going to happen no matter what organization you're talking about.
If you are lying in an attempt to get her to abort then it is pro-abortion. If you are lying in an attempt to get her to NOT abort it is anti-woman.
Pro-choice.
Pro-choice.

reply from: Yuuki

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.

reply from: ProInformed

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Oh pulease! You don't even see a difference between a hostile pro-abort like spinwiddy and 'pro-choicers'! LOL
So maybe you "believe" in the existence of real pro-choicers like someone might believe in unicorns?
Never mind the fact that the existence of real pro-choicers isn't backed up by any proof like pro-choicers advocating for changes in the way the abortion industry does busines...
never mind that you try to pass off an obvious pro-abort troll like spinwiddy as a supposed example of a real pro-choicer...

reply from: Antibigot

Pro-choice and pro-abortion are the same thing. But, people don't like pro-abortion because it sounds "bad." They think it means someone who wants everyone to abort no matter if the pregnancy is wanted or not.
In that case, pro-death penalty should mean someone who wants every prisoner to get the death penalty no matter how minor the crime. Pro-gay marriage should mean someone who wants to force ALL gays to marry. Pro-American should mean someone who thinks everyone should become American no matter where they already live. Pro-euthanasia should mean someone who wants everyone to be euthanized no matter how healthy they are.

reply from: churchmouse

scopia said it best..........no need to say anything else.

reply from: yoda

It does, mostly because it has the word "abortion" in it. They don't want to be associated with that word. The just want to enable others to partake of it, and pretend that their hands are then clean, even though they have encouraged others to kill their children.
You mention proponents of the DP, gay marriage, and euthanasia, and those are good examples. No proponent of any of those things would ever object to being labeled with a term that includes the name of that which they support. ONLY proaborts want to distance themselves from that which they support, abortion. They are ashamed to be associated with it.

reply from: Cecilia

a person who is really proabortion would try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants.
A person who is prolife would try to convince someone to keep the pregnancy regardless of what that woman wants.
A person who is prochoice would make no push for either but support a woman no matter what her choice is.
this is how i see it, i bet if most (reasonable) people would see it this way too.

reply from: nancyu

In other words. Someone who is pro choice doesn't care one way or another if another woman kills her child?
Would someone who is pro choice behave the same way toward someone who is suicidal? Would you support a person's "choice" to kill himself? -- Because I think if you would support a person's decision to kill himself that would make you pro suicide, because if you weren't you would do everything possible to stop that person.
It seems to me that you want there to be a middle ground between pro abortion and pro life. Why?

reply from: scopia19822

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
You can go ahead and believe their is a difference between prochoice/abortion. However I still stand by what I said. It would be correct to call myself prolife as I oppose abortion, capital punishment, assisted suicide and euthanasia. I woulld also be ok with someone calling me anti abortion as it would be a true and accurate statement as I oppose abortion, hence making me antiabortion.

reply from: yoda

From which dictionary do you get that definition? The one in your head? OR is that from the "Make 'em up as you go" dictionary?
Kinda like a person who is "pro-gun" wants everyone to own a gun, whether they want one or not?
Or like someone who is "pro-gay marriage" wants everyone to marry someone of their gender?
Or like someone who is "pro-immigration" wants everyone to leave their home country and immigrate?
It's fun to make them up, isn't it?

reply from: Antibigot

Pro-Abortion means favoring or supporting legalized abortion. Notice the "legalized" part of the definition. Although the prefix pro- can mean to favor, it doesn't mean the definition of pro-abortion is to favor abortion over birth. Pro- in this case means to SUPPORT something. For example, pro-death penalty does not mean someone who favors the death penalty over any other punishment for all cases. It means they support it for the serious cases such as for murderers.
Would it be better to call them pro-LEGALIZED-abortion? That may not be accurate because if abortion would become illegal, people would still support abortion as a choice.

reply from: Yuuki

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?
I don't think it's right to use secondary labels, period. They are pro-choice and we are pro-life, period. The ONLY purpose of secondary labels are to insult and degrade.
And again, if there truly were a difference between anti-women people and pro-lifers then why isn't there a pro-life movement challenging the anti-women people's claim to the title of pro-life?

reply from: Yuuki

Oh pulease! You don't even see a difference between a hostile pro-abort like spinwiddy and 'pro-choicers'! LOL
So maybe you "believe" in the existence of real pro-choicers like someone might believe in unicorns?
Never mind the fact that the existence of real pro-choicers isn't backed up by any proof like pro-choicers advocating for changes in the way the abortion industry does busines...
never mind that you try to pass off an obvious pro-abort troll like spinwiddy as a supposed example of a real pro-choicer...
I have never seen Spinny encourage any woman on this forum to abort. However, she has said some very nasty things about handicapped children and seems to think that parents should have the right to kill their unborn child just because it isn't perfect, and that is a pro-abortion viewpoint. On second thought, she's a bit mixed. And that's going to be the case for a lot of people.
Humans do not perfectly fit into archetypes or stereotypes. That's why you can't possibly expect every person under a "label" to think exactly the same.

reply from: yoda

That still would not do, because it has the word "abortion" in it. They will not be associated with that word, even though they feverishly support it.

reply from: yoda

You have no authority to restrict anyone's use of terms, whether accepted by dictionaries or just plain slang. No authority at all.

reply from: Antibigot

That still would not do, because it has the word "abortion" in it. They will not be associated with that word, even though they feverishly support it.
That's true. But, I'm probaby going to start using "Pro-legalized-abortion" in other forums just to see how well they take it. If they don't like the term, I get a chance to point out how ridiculous it is to not like being reminded that they are actually for legal abortion.

reply from: Antibigot

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?
I don't think it's right to use secondary labels, period. They are pro-choice and we are pro-life, period. The ONLY purpose of secondary labels are to insult and degrade.
And again, if there truly were a difference between anti-women people and pro-lifers then why isn't there a pro-life movement challenging the anti-women people's claim to the title of pro-life?
Didn't the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion come before the terms pro-choice and pro-life? Boths sides wanted a more "positive" label.

reply from: nancyu

You have no authority to restrict anyone's use of terms, whether accepted by dictionaries or just plain slang. No authority at all.
Exactly right Yoda.

reply from: Yuuki

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?
I don't think it's right to use secondary labels, period. They are pro-choice and we are pro-life, period. The ONLY purpose of secondary labels are to insult and degrade.
And again, if there truly were a difference between anti-women people and pro-lifers then why isn't there a pro-life movement challenging the anti-women people's claim to the title of pro-life?
Didn't the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion come before the terms pro-choice and pro-life? Boths sides wanted a more "positive" label.
I have no idea to be honest. I'm fairly certain that pro-life came first, and then in a reaction, people who were okay with Roe V Wade called themselves pro-choice, since being called pro-death is not exactly positive. Nor is pro-abortion. And that's why pro-lifers don't call themselves anti-abortion. It's negative. It's all about image.
So both sides chose their own names. Calling them anything else is similar to using a racial slur.

reply from: yoda

One thing I notice that is consistent about proaborts is that they don't mind looking ridiculous.

reply from: Cecilia

In other words. Someone who is pro choice doesn't care one way or another if another woman kills her child?
Would someone who is pro choice behave the same way toward someone who is suicidal? Would you support a person's "choice" to kill himself? -- Because I think if you would support a person's decision to kill himself that would make you pro suicide, because if you weren't you would do everything possible to stop that person.
It seems to me that you want there to be a middle ground between pro abortion and pro life. Why?
at least no one denied that prolife people want women to do what they want her to do regardless of her own thoughts, feelings, or desires.

reply from: Cecilia

From which dictionary do you get that definition? The one in your head? OR is that from the "Make 'em up as you go" dictionary?
Kinda like a person who is "pro-gun" wants everyone to own a gun, whether they want one or not?
Or like someone who is "pro-gay marriage" wants everyone to marry someone of their gender?
Or like someone who is "pro-immigration" wants everyone to leave their home country and immigrate?
It's fun to make them up, isn't it?
you dont recognize that proabortion is associated with individuals who promote abortion at all cause?
or should i say:

reply from: yoda

In the general public? Absolutely not. While some proaborts who post on forums like this may feel that way, dictionaries establish that the general public does not consider that to be the case. And as for me, I will continue to use terminology as it is used by the general public, not by a few proabort online posters.
Is someone trying to restrict your use of terms? Which ones?

reply from: nancyu

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?
I don't think it's right to use secondary labels, period. They are pro-choice and we are pro-life, period. The ONLY purpose of secondary labels are to insult and degrade.
And again, if there truly were a difference between anti-women people and pro-lifers then why isn't there a pro-life movement challenging the anti-women people's claim to the title of pro-life?
Didn't the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion come before the terms pro-choice and pro-life? Boths sides wanted a more "positive" label.
I have no idea to be honest. I'm fairly certain that pro-life came first, and then in a reaction, people who were okay with Roe V Wade called themselves pro-choice, since being called pro-death is not exactly positive. Nor is pro-abortion. And that's why pro-lifers don't call themselves anti-abortion. It's negative. It's all about image.
So both sides chose their own names. Calling them anything else is similar to using a racial slur.
A racial slur? No. Not similar, not even close. You're dumbness is so awesome! I am so totally amazed by it!
Yuuki has spoken (again) we cannot call anyone names unless those names are approved by the name callees.

reply from: nancyu

In other words. Someone who is pro choice doesn't care one way or another if another woman kills her child?
Would someone who is pro choice behave the same way toward someone who is suicidal? Would you support a person's "choice" to kill himself? -- Because I think if you would support a person's decision to kill himself that would make you pro suicide, because if you weren't you would do everything possible to stop that person.
It seems to me that you want there to be a middle ground between pro abortion and pro life. Why?
at least no one denied that prolife people want women to do what they want her to do regardless of her own thoughts, feelings, or desires.
Most pro life people I know are all for freedom. We think women should be able to do pretty much whatever they want -- we just don't think they should be allowed to kill their children.
But you are all okay with that -- whatever...

reply from: nancyu

Then we really should call pro-life anti-abortion. "Pro-life" is just a euphamism for what we're really against now isn't it?
And I still truly believe there is a difference between someone who is pro-choice and someone who is pro-abortion.
Um, lots of people DO call pro-lifers anti-abortion, including the media (which is supposed to be unbiased - the same media that dishonestly calls pro-abortion 'pro-choice' with NO protestations from, with the permission from, the 'pro-choicers' who claim they are somehow different than the pro-aborts).
And again, if there truly were a difference between pro-aborts and pro-choicers then why isn't there a pro-choice movement challenging the pro-aborts claim to the title of pro-choice?
I don't think it's right to use secondary labels, period. They are pro-choice and we are pro-life, period. The ONLY purpose of secondary labels are to insult and degrade.
And again, if there truly were a difference between anti-women people and pro-lifers then why isn't there a pro-life movement challenging the anti-women people's claim to the title of pro-life?
Didn't the terms pro-abortion and anti-abortion come before the terms pro-choice and pro-life? Boths sides wanted a more "positive" label.
I have no idea to be honest. I'm fairly certain that pro-life came first, and then in a reaction, people who were okay with Roe V Wade called themselves pro-choice, since being called pro-death is not exactly positive. Nor is pro-abortion. And that's why pro-lifers don't call themselves anti-abortion. It's negative. It's all about image.
So both sides chose their own names. Calling them anything else is similar to using a racial slur.
A racial slur? No. Not similar, not even close. You're dumbness is so awesome! I am so totally amazed by it!
Yuuki has spoken (again) we cannot call anyone names unless those names are approved by the name callees.
(seems like there should be a "thou shalt not" in there somewhere)

reply from: Yuuki

I think it's awesome you think being polite makes me a dumbass I'd rather be this kind of dumbass ANY day, than be a bully.

reply from: ProInformed

But since there is plenty of evidence that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics indeed are pro-abort, do everything than can to try to sell abortions, even to women who just came in for a pregnancy test (and sometimes even to women who aren't even pregnant!), and even lie to women to try to convince them to abort, DO
"try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants" and support whomever else wants to try to get women to abort (instead of supporting the women in resisting such pressures),
AND since the so-called 'pro-choice' movement not only condones the clinics operating in such a blatantly pro-abort manner,
AND because 'pro-choice' individuals won't really challenge the 'pro-choice' movement or clinics or individuals who indeed "try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants"...
The existence of so-called real 'pro-choicers' continues to be non-supported by any real evidence - no pro-choice advocacy exists to back up the existence of pro-choicers after all, no pro-choicer legislative efforts, no pro-choice groups, no pro-choice movement.
"A person who is prochoice would make no push for either but support a woman no matter what her choice is."
Really? So what do these mythical 'pro-choicers' DO when women reveal that they were lied to and pressured to abort? Do they support those women and support legislative efforts to make it illegal to lie to women and to pressure women in order to convince them to abort? Nope.
I guess you won't personally try to pressure a woman to abort,
or to convince her (or HELP her) to let her baby live,
but you have no problem with pro-aborts pressuring women to abort,
won't DO anything to interfere with such pro-abort pressures...
you just feel compelled to oppose pro-lifers 'pressuring', HELPING, women to save their babies lives, huh?

reply from: ProInformed

Oh pulease! You don't even see a difference between a hostile pro-abort like spinwiddy and 'pro-choicers'! LOL
So maybe you "believe" in the existence of real pro-choicers like someone might believe in unicorns?
Never mind the fact that the existence of real pro-choicers isn't backed up by any proof like pro-choicers advocating for changes in the way the abortion industry does busines...
never mind that you try to pass off an obvious pro-abort troll like spinwiddy as a supposed example of a real pro-choicer...
I have never seen Spinny encourage any woman on this forum to abort. However, she has said some very nasty things about handicapped children and seems to think that parents should have the right to kill their unborn child just because it isn't perfect, and that is a pro-abortion viewpoint. On second thought, she's a bit mixed. And that's going to be the case for a lot of people.
Humans do not perfectly fit into archetypes or stereotypes. That's why you can't possibly expect every person under a "label" to think exactly the same.
So a person who openly insults women who were convinced to abort BECAUSE of PRO-ABORT pressures and lies,
who thereby supports such pro-abort lies and pressures being put on women just to sell more abortions,
who attacks women who dare to try to warn other women about such pro-abort clinics,
who criticizes the women instead of the lying pro-abort clinics...
is 'pro-choice' by your definition?

reply from: ProInformed

Good point.
And the so-called 'pro-choicers' reveal they are not really pro-choice when they persistently fail to challenge the obviously anti-choice, pro-abort policies and stance of the abortion industry and its lobby groups.

reply from: ProInformed

Do you acknowledge that clinics that lie to women in order to get them to abort are pro-abortion, "promote abortion at all cause", care more about selling abortions than they do about the women or their right to choose what they want to do minus any coercion or deception?
And likewise, wouldn't it be true that those who defend such clinics, who won't do anything to stop them from lying to women, are therefore enabling pro-abortionism vs pro-choicism?

reply from: ProInformed

Hmmm... so the old biased media has been slinging racial slurs at pro-lifers all along, eh?
Oh and where are the posts where Yuuki is criticizing the pro-aborts when they sling insults and 'racial slurs' at pro-lifers and post-aborted women?
She must be OK with that... she saves all her criticism for the pro-lifers,
and then whines because we won't believe she is pro-choice... or pro-life... instead of pro-abortion.

reply from: yoda

This has to be the silliest criticism I've ever read.
Hey, I ALSO want child predators to stop abusing children, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY WANT TO DO REGARDLESS OF THEIR OWN THOUGHTS, FEELINGS, OR DESIRES.
How's that?

reply from: yoda

Someone is playing the race card in a checkers game......

reply from: yoda

Yeah, "anti-choicer" is worse that the "N" word, don'tcha know?
She typed them out, but then forgot to push the "Reply to Topic" button.
Cause she loves us more!

reply from: Yuuki

I have spoken out against several pro-choicers on this forum. Vexing for one. Who was the guy who thought pedophelia was okay? And I chastized Spinny for what she posted about deformed children to Lukesmom. But for the most part, the nastiness comes from people like Yoda, Faithman and Nancyu.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's right..... I'm Mr. Bad Guy. Satisfied now?
Got any compassion for the babies being slaughtered today, or do you want to drag your feet a little longer?

reply from: Yuuki

Hey, I'm defending myself here. People wanted proof and I gave it. Now you're going to whine and change the subject.

reply from: yoda

"Proof" of WHAT and WHO asked for it?

reply from: Yuuki

One page ago.
She typed them out, but then forgot to push the "Reply to Topic" button.
A DUR A DUR A DUR. Seriously, do you type out these insults and then forget 3 second later?

reply from: yoda

It's not an insult, it's just an observation of a trend you have in posting here.
Many posters here probably admire you for it, too.

reply from: Yuuki

I'm honestly getting bored of your constant snarkiness.

reply from: Cecilia

But since there is plenty of evidence that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics indeed are pro-abort, do everything than can to try to sell abortions, even to women who just came in for a pregnancy test (and sometimes even to women who aren't even pregnant!), and even lie to women to try to convince them to abort, DO
"try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants" and support whomever else wants to try to get women to abort (instead of supporting the women in resisting such pressures),
AND since the so-called 'pro-choice' movement not only condones the clinics operating in such a blatantly pro-abort manner,
AND because 'pro-choice' individuals won't really challenge the 'pro-choice' movement or clinics or individuals who indeed "try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants"...
The existence of so-called real 'pro-choicers' continues to be non-supported by any real evidence - no pro-choice advocacy exists to back up the existence of pro-choicers after all, no pro-choicer legisaltive efforts, no pro-choice groups, no pro-choice movement.
"A person who is prochoice would make no push for either but support a woman no matter what her choice is."
Really? So what do these mythical 'pro-choicers' DO when women reveal that they were lied to and pressured to abort? Do they support those women and support legislative efforts to make it illegal to lie to women and to pressure women in order to convince them to abort? Nope.
I guess you won't personally try to pressure a woman to abort,
or to convince her (or HELP her) to let her baby live,
but you have no problem with pro-aborts pressuring women to abort,
won't DO anything to interfere with such pro-abort pressures...
you just feel compelled to oppose pro-lifers 'pressuring', HELPING, women to save their babies lives, huh?
Your anecdotal evidence has zero validity.

reply from: Cecilia

Do you acknowledge that clinics that lie to women in order to get them to abort are pro-abortion, "promote abortion at all cause", care more about selling abortions than they do about the women or their right to choose what they want to do minus any coercion or deception?
And likewise, wouldn't it be true that those who defend such clinics, who won't do anything to stop them from lying to women, are therefore enabling pro-abortionism vs pro-choicism?
No answer.
And no, I don't acknoweldge that clinics lie to women to sell abortions. All i have ever heard about that is from you. HOw do you even know YOU were lied to?

reply from: ProInformed

Pretending that every single woman who exposes that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics are really pro-abortion,
is just presenting 'anecdotal' evidence,
ignoring or making fun of such women,
implying that they are the ones who are lying,
defending and enabling the clinics' lies...
is pro-abortion - NOT 'pro-choice'
A REAL pro-choicer would side with the women instead of the abortion industry that lies to women and would support legislative efforts to require clinics to tell women the truth.

reply from: ProInformed

OK here's a chance for all those who whine that there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice to give some specific examples of which is which.
Which posters here are pro-abortion?
Which posters are pro-choice?
Cut & paste specific pro-abort statements, and specific pro-choice statements,
as examples.

reply from: ProInformed

Is the NAF pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Is PP pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Is lying to women about fetal development in order to sell more abortions pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Is Obama pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Is spinwiddy pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

I don't know what that is. However, an entire organization will have within it members of both factions no matter what.
From my experience with them and the majority experience of people who have abortions, I'd call them pro-choice. There are a few bad clinics, but that's going to happen no matter what organization you're talking about.
NAF stands for the National Abortion Federation.
They claim to give their stamp of approval to only the 'good' clinics... assuring women that the clinics with the NAF endorsement are safe and can be trusted...
But it's not at all unusual for NAF clinics to lie to women and even clinics where women have died retain their NAF endorsement.
When I found out the truth about how the clinic I went to lied to me I contacted the NAF, confident that clinic would lose it's NAF endorsement of supposedly being one of the 'good' clinics, confident that the bad clinics were rare and not knowingly endorsed by the NAF... I was laughed at and they hung up on me.
I had trusted the NAF and the 'pro-choice' clinics;
I didn't know that the NAF basically sells their endorsement to any clinic that pays for it and doesn't really care about the women.

reply from: Yuuki

Well, from that bit of information I'd have to label the NAF pro-abortion since their only goal is to promote abortion.

reply from: yoda

Except that our side does not use semantic arguments to try to justify killing an unborn baby, and your side does.

reply from: ProInformed

Well if everyone supposedly already knows exactly what abortion is,
then why so much pro-abort opposition to telling and showing the truth about abortion in sex-ed courses and in abortion clinic 'counseling', eh?
So if what you claim were true then what logical excuse would there be for the abortion industry to fight having women see a sonogram of their baby before having an abortion?
And showing actual photos of aborted babies, videos of abortions being done, and the sketch of how a partial-birth abortion is done ACCORDING TO the way the abortionist who invented it described and taught it to his fellow abortionists, is NOT mere 'semantics'.
Abortion has been legal in the U.S. for over 3 decades and most citizens are not even well-informed on the legal status of abortion let alone how the various abortion methods are done (or that there is more than one abortion method even).
So anyway, since you claim that everyone knows exactly what abortion is,
why don't you describe for us, in detail, exactly what each each abotion method does to the unborn baby, eh?
http://www.lifedynamics.com/Abortion_Information/Pro-life_Product/?id=77

reply from: ProInformed

Well, since it is such a frequent complaint from the choicists, that they do NOT want to be lumped in with the pro-aborts, then it is logical to ask them what is the difference between 'pro-choice' and pro-abort.
Also since the so-called 'pro-choice' movement is so blatantly pro-abort,
and not interested in supporting the women who do NOT want to 'choose' abortion,
wouldn't it make sense for the 'pro-choice-but-not-pro-abort' citizens to challenge the pro-abort (abortion industry lobby) groups who claim THEY are the 'pro-choicers'?

reply from: ProInformed

One page ago.
She typed them out, but then forgot to push the "Reply to Topic" button.
A DUR A DUR A DUR. Seriously, do you type out these insults and then forget 3 second later?
OK, so you have posted some criticisms of some pro-aborts on occasion...
relatively rare occasions compared to your constant criticisms of pro-life posters.
BTW, is it OK with you when pro-aborts attack post-aborted women in an attempt to keep them quiet? It's pretty obvious the main agenda spinwiddy has for posting here is to harrass women who try to warn other women to NOT trust that they will be told the truth and given other choices besides abortion at so-called 'pro-choice' clinics. And it's just as obvious that you aren't criticizing her for doing that. You even said that in your opinion spinwiddy is pro-choice instead of pro-abortion! REALLY?! SO in your opinion it's OK, it's 'pro-choice', not pro-abortion, when clinics lie to women in order to convince them to abort?!?
AND you think it's 'pro-choice' - not pro-abortion, when those women ar made fun of when they find out the truth?!?

reply from: yoda

She once stated that spinny was prolife, so...........

reply from: ProInformed

Ah but, they falsely assure women that the NAF endorsed clinics can be trusted as being the good clinics, the honest clinics, the pro-choice - not pro-abortion clinics.
AND there is NO group of 'pro-choice' citizens condemning the NAF for their complicity in providing 'bad-apple' and unsafe clinics with trusting women.
So again, where is the so-called 'pro-choice' movement?
It doesn't really exist, does it?
And 'pro-choice' citizens say they exist but they just have never bothered to DO ANYTHING about the pro-aborts who lie to women?
IF there really are pro-choicers WHY haven't they ever done anything to challenge the abortion industry and the abortion industry lobby groups that claim THEY are the 'pro-choicers'?

reply from: yoda

The second biggest proabort in government (exceeded only by NoBama himself) says something and you expect us to take it seriously?
The guy never saw an abortion he didn't like, especially when it's the baby of a poor mother...... he's a REAL pro-abort.

reply from: ProInformed

Yes, spinfibby, we're all aware that the abortion industry lobby groups hate and harrass the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers and pretend that the pro-lifers are the ones lying to women.
But the point is:
Why don't so-called 'pro-choicers' ever DO ANYTHING about PRO-ABORTS who lie to women?
You pro-aborts don't like it when women go to a pro-life crisis pregnancy center, THEN you claim that women are being lied to and pressured to choose a specific way.
PRO-LIFERS provide pro-life ciris pregnancy centers to tell pregnant females the truth and to warn them about the lying pro-abort clinics.
PRO-ABORTS (like you spinfibby) defend the lying pro-abort clinics, falsely assure women that the lying abortion industry industry clinics can be trusted, and falsely claim that the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers are lying.
PRO-CHOICERS (if they existed) would not want anybody lying to pregnant females and would DO something like support legislation to make it illegal and prosecutable for clinic staff to lie to pregnant females.
Hmm, why don't you make fun of and insult the women who come away from a pro-life crisis pregnancy center with complaints about what they were told there?
Why don't you do the point and laugh routine with those women like you do with the women who were lied to at pro-abortion clinics? Why don't you accuse THEM of knowing full well what was going to happen if they went to a pro-life clinic, that they have no right to complain, and that you will hiss hatefull personal insults at them if they don't keep quiet?
Because you are pro-abort - NOT 'pro-choice'.
PRO-ABORTS claim that women are lied to at pro-life crisis pregnancy centers.
Well, even if that were true, those women can still go get an abortion.
The women who are lied to at pro-abort clinics can't undo their baby being killed when they find out the truth, can they?
The truth is you pro-aborts don't like the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers because they tell women the truth and then many of those women CHOOSE to refuse to abort - resulting in a loss of abortion profits.

reply from: yoda

Wrong...... Lila Rose does not advocate killing healthy babies because she's too stingy to pay her taxes. I don't trust people who advocate killing other people just to save themselves some money. I trust Lila Rose because she is not trying to have people killed to save her money.

reply from: ProInformed

LIAR - you pro-aborts CONSISTENTLY OPPOSE each and every legislative attempt to grant pregnant women the same patient protection right of Informed Consent as other patients.
I DID talk to a lawyer after I found out the truth, AND I talked to the NAF which claims it only endorses honest and safe clinics. The lawyer informed me that the abortion industry lobby groups have successfully fought to deny this important patient protection right to women and the NAF didn't care one bit that the NAF endorsed clinic I went to was dishonest.
I also was warned by prenatal instructors and nurse-midwives at a birthing center I went to when I was pregnant with my living children (a decade after my first baby was killed by abortion) that when it comes to any info given to a pregnant woman that might involve an abortion decision the normal patient protection right of Informed Consent is routinely denied, that doctors know that they can be successfully sued in 'wrongful birth' lawsuits but are unequally protected from losing a lawsuit if they convince pregnant women to abort if there is any possibility of any maternal or fetal health problems.
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissue...es/goodwin.html
<br ">http://www.leaderu.com...sue.....oodwin.html

Hopefully eventually there will be a winning class action lawsuit against the abortion industry, for all the lies they've told to women. My attempt to bring an individual lawsuit against the clinic that lied to me was prevented by the statutes of limitation - I didn't find out the truth about what my having a negative Rh blood factor meant until I was told the truth a decade later by a nurse-midwife - that it did NOT mean my baby and I could not both survive pregnancy. I didn't learn the truth about fetal development until then either - from a sonogram and a prenatal class.
You pro-aborts insult any woman who dares to expose the abortion industry lies,
you pro-aborts call us women liars, BECAUSE you DEFEND the LYING clinics.
The truth is that no matter how many women tell you they were lied to in order to get them to agree to an abortion spinfibby, you will continue to pretend the women are the liars, continue to defend the lying abortion industry, BECAUSE you are PRO-ABORT, NOT 'pro-choice'.
I AM DOING something about having been lied to by the clinic!
I am trying to warn other women NOT to trust pro-abort liars like YOU spinfibby
AND I no matter how many hateful insults you post about me spitwitty I will continue to warn women and to criticize your lies and anti-woman por-abort harrassment of post-aborted women.
I also support legislative efforts to make sure pregnant women are not lied to at clinics - Informed Consent legislation that you pro-aborts fight against.

reply from: ProInformed

Pro-abortion or pro-choice?
http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Call+centre+staffer+dies+after+botched+abortion&artid=3x8FOsm/KT8=&SectionID=xAV59odivTs=&MainSectionID=wIcBMLGbUJI=&SectionName=BUzPVSKuYv7MFxnS0yZ7ng==&SEO=

reply from: ProInformed

Is lying to women about fetal development in order to sell more abortions pro-abortion or pro-choice?
Is insulting women who were lied to in order to get them to abort
pro-abortion or pro-choice?
What would be a pro-abort response to women who were lied to at clinics?
What would be a pro-choice response to women who were lied to at clinics?
What would be pro-abort advocacy to address the problem of clinics that lie?
What would be pro-choice advocacy to address the problem of clinics that lie?

reply from: ProInformed

Is making fun of the babies killed by abortion pro-abortion or 'pro-choice'?
Is defending those who make fun of the babies killed by abortion,
instead of criticizing them, pro-abortion or 'pro-choice'?
Oh and BTW we REAL pro-lifers know that it is not 'pro-life' to make fun of babies killed by abortion, or to defend those who make fun of babies killed by abortion.

reply from: ProInformed

Pro-abortion:
Pro-aborts don't believe the studies that show a link between abortion and breast cancer... or they don't care ('abortion rights' matter more to them than the lives and health of the women), so they don't want women to be told about the studies.
Pro-choice:
A real pro-choicer would defend telling the women about the studies and then letting each individual woman decide for herself whether or not she believes the studies, whether or not she personally wants to take the risk.

reply from: Yuuki

Is it pro-life to constantly ask useless questions?

reply from: ProInformed

Well it may be YOUR opinion that it's OK to pose as 'pro-choice/pro-woman' when a movement's, group's, or individual's real agenda is to JUST defend the abortion industry, and to NOT care or do anything at all about women being subjected to pro-abort anti-choice pressures and lies... that to discuss such things is "useless questions"... but that's probably because you are just another pro-abort who can't even successfully pass herself off as 'pro-choice' let alone 'pro-life'.
A REAL pro-lifer, or even a person who is pro-choice instead of pro-abort, would not consider such questions useless.

reply from: ProInformed

But since there is plenty of evidence that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics indeed are pro-abort, do everything than can to try to sell abortions, even to women who just came in for a pregnancy test (and sometimes even to women who aren't even pregnant!), and even lie to women to try to convince them to abort, DO
"try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants" and support whomever else wants to try to get women to abort (instead of supporting the women in resisting such pressures),
AND since the so-called 'pro-choice' movement not only condones the clinics operating in such a blatantly pro-abort manner,
AND because 'pro-choice' individuals won't really challenge the 'pro-choice' movement or clinics or individuals who indeed "try to convince someone to have an abortion regardless of what that woman wants"...
The existence of so-called real 'pro-choicers' continues to be non-supported by any real evidence - no pro-choice advocacy exists to back up the existence of pro-choicers after all, no pro-choicer legisaltive efforts, no pro-choice groups, no pro-choice movement.
"A person who is prochoice would make no push for either but support a woman no matter what her choice is."
Really? So what do these mythical 'pro-choicers' DO when women reveal that they were lied to and pressured to abort? Do they support those women and support legislative efforts to make it illegal to lie to women and to pressure women in order to convince them to abort? Nope.
I guess you won't personally try to pressure a woman to abort,
or to convince her (or HELP her) to let her baby live,
but you have no problem with pro-aborts pressuring women to abort,
won't DO anything to interfere with such pro-abort pressures...
you just feel compelled to oppose pro-lifers 'pressuring', HELPING, women to save their babies lives, huh?
Your anecdotal evidence has zero validity.
TRANSLATION:
You don't really care about women or 'choice'.
No matter how many women are lied to or pressured to abort you will pretend it's just not happening, that the women must be lying, BECAUSE all you care about is defending the abortion industry.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Questions;
1) How do we know that you were on the business end of a lie, or if you're just tryong to blame others for your poor choices?
2) Should someone incapable of making adult decisions - particularly decisions pertaining to health care - really be in charge of vulnerable infants?
3) What sort of "nanny state" should we have to maintain in order to protect people like you from yourselves?
TRANSLATION:
Any woman who doesn't keep quiet about being lied to by the abortion industry will be called a liar and personally insulted - proving you are NOT 'pro-woman/pro-choice' spinfibby!

reply from: Eos

Jumping into the middle of this, here. So sorry if I'm a little off-topic.
But of course there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice. I support a woman's right to choose between raising a child, giving it up for adoption, or aborting, without pushing any one option over the others. I don't necessarily believe that it's wise for teenagers/drug addicts/welfare recipients/etc. to have children, but I won't deny them the option or force an abortion on a woman who wants her baby. It is their body and their embryo, after all.
On the other hand, pro-life really does mean anti-choice, because pro-lifers support taking away the choice alltogether.

reply from: ProInformed

Actually since pro-lifers are THE ones who support legislative efforts to at the very least give pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent (while 'pro-choice' groups oppose giving pregnant women that important patient protection right), it could be logically argued that in that respect pro-lifers are more pro-choice than the so-called 'pro-choicers'. The abortion industry routinely lies to women in order to sell more abortions, which is anti-choice and pro-abortion NOT 'pro-choice'.
Anyway, the co-called 'pro-choice' groups are veyr easily revealed ot be ONLY pro-abortion, they're just abortion industry lobby groups that not only fail to do anything to protect a woman's right to NOT abort, they openly side with those who use anti-choice lies and coercion to try to make women abort.

reply from: Eos

Actually since pro-lifers are THE ones who support legislative efforts to at the very least give pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent (while 'pro-choice' groups oppose giving pregnant women that important patient protection right), it could be logically argued that in that respect pro-lifers are more pro-choice than the so-called 'pro-choicers'. The abortion industry routinely lies to women in order to sell more abortions, which is anti-choice and pro-abortion NOT 'pro-choice'.
Anyway, the co-called 'pro-choice' groups are veyr easily revealed ot be ONLY pro-abortion, they're just abortion industry lobby groups that not only fail to do anything to protect a woman's right to NOT abort, they openly side with those who use anti-choice lies and coercion to try to make women abort.
Ah, yes. Informed consent. As if a woman is just going to skip into an abortion clinic without any clue as to what is going to happen to her or her embryo there.
Informed consent legislation is simply a way of patronizing women whom pro-lifers like to claim cannot think for herself. Every woman, surely, wants to be a mother. No woman would ever willingly have an abortion. Surely she's only doing it because she doesn't really know what's going on and it's our godly duty to inform her so she'll see the error of her ways...
gag.
No respectable doctor will perform an abortion on a woman who seems anything but certain in her choice, and no pro-choicer wants to force abortion on a wanted baby. So yes, pro-CHOICE is the appropriate title.

reply from: ProInformed

Actually since pro-lifers are THE ones who support legislative efforts to at the very least give pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent (while 'pro-choice' groups oppose giving pregnant women that important patient protection right), it could be logically argued that in that respect pro-lifers are more pro-choice than the so-called 'pro-choicers'. The abortion industry routinely lies to women in order to sell more abortions, which is anti-choice and pro-abortion NOT 'pro-choice'.
Anyway, the co-called 'pro-choice' groups are veyr easily revealed ot be ONLY pro-abortion, they're just abortion industry lobby groups that not only fail to do anything to protect a woman's right to NOT abort, they openly side with those who use anti-choice lies and coercion to try to make women abort.
Ah, yes. Informed consent. As if a woman is just going to skip into an abortion clinic without any clue as to what is going to happen to her or her embryo there.
Informed consent legislation is simply a way of patronizing women whom pro-lifers like to claim cannot think for herself. Every woman, surely, wants to be a mother. No woman would ever willingly have an abortion. Surely she's only doing it because she doesn't really know what's going on and it's our godly duty to inform her so she'll see the error of her ways...
gag.
No respectable doctor will perform an abortion on a woman who seems anything but certain in her choice, and no pro-choicer wants to force abortion on a wanted baby. So yes, pro-CHOICE is the appropriate title.
OK, so your pretense to not be a pro-abort didn't last long did it, eh? LOL

reply from: Eos

Actually since pro-lifers are THE ones who support legislative efforts to at the very least give pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent (while 'pro-choice' groups oppose giving pregnant women that important patient protection right), it could be logically argued that in that respect pro-lifers are more pro-choice than the so-called 'pro-choicers'. The abortion industry routinely lies to women in order to sell more abortions, which is anti-choice and pro-abortion NOT 'pro-choice'.
Anyway, the co-called 'pro-choice' groups are veyr easily revealed ot be ONLY pro-abortion, they're just abortion industry lobby groups that not only fail to do anything to protect a woman's right to NOT abort, they openly side with those who use anti-choice lies and coercion to try to make women abort.
Ah, yes. Informed consent. As if a woman is just going to skip into an abortion clinic without any clue as to what is going to happen to her or her embryo there.
Informed consent legislation is simply a way of patronizing women whom pro-lifers like to claim cannot think for herself. Every woman, surely, wants to be a mother. No woman would ever willingly have an abortion. Surely she's only doing it because she doesn't really know what's going on and it's our godly duty to inform her so she'll see the error of her ways...
gag.
No respectable doctor will perform an abortion on a woman who seems anything but certain in her choice, and no pro-choicer wants to force abortion on a wanted baby. So yes, pro-CHOICE is the appropriate title.
OK, so your pretense to not be a pro-abort didn't last long did it, eh? LOL
First, don't split your infinitives. You should have said "your pretense NOT TO BE...".
And second, how am I pro-abort? What did I say to give you that impression?

reply from: Faramir

Anyone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion-rights.
Anyone who is pro-choice and refuses to acknowledge they support the right to abort is being dishonest, and I wish they would come up with a more honest label than "pro-choice," since there is no need for a right to choose, just a need for a right to abort.
But I believe there are many who are pro-abortion-rights who are not "pro-abortion." I think that many who call themselves "pro-choice" would not abort and would not desire that others abort.

reply from: Faramir

"Choice" is totally and unequivocally a pile of steaming horsesh1t.
I wish that women did not have the right to abort.
I don't want to take away the right to give birth. That right is not in dispute and never was.
The "right to choose" implies you want the right to give birth or the right to destroy the embryo or fetus. The former was never in dispute and you don't need the right to "choose to remain pregnant," hence there is no need for a "right to choose." What you need is the "right to abort."
The "right to choose" is a way to cover up the ugliness of the word "abortion."

reply from: Eos

"Choice" is totally and unequivocally a pile of steaming horsesh1t.
I wish that women did not have the right to abort.
I don't want to take away the right to give birth. That right is not in dispute and never was.
The "right to choose" implies you want the right to give birth or the right to destroy the embryo or fetus. The former was never in dispute and you don't need the right to "choose to remain pregnant," hence there is no need for a "right to choose." What you need is the "right to abort."
The "right to choose" is a way to cover up the ugliness of the word "abortion."
Hmmm... Didn't the person who posts as ProInformed rant on and on about not being able to excercise her "right to remaint pregnant"?
She had a choice taken away from her. People, like myself, who are pro-choice, would never force an abortion on her. Of course I support the right to abort, but I also support the right to bear children. Above all, I support the right of a woman to choose which.

reply from: ProInformed

Is lying to women about fetal development in order to sell more abortions pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: Yuuki

I believe I've already answered that one with a resounding "pro-abortion".

reply from: Faramir

Do those who want to own firearms demand the "right to choose" or the "right to own firearms"?
It's the latter of course.
Do you or I need an explicit right to NOT own a firearm?
Neither do you need a special right to NOT abort, as you have that right implicitly, and it's in no danger now, and in no danger if abortion is ever outlawed.
If you want to be able to end an unwanted pregnancy at will, you don't need a "right to choose." You need a "right to abort."
I won't go so far as to say all who are "pro-choice" are "pro-abortion," but all who are "pro-choice" are "pro-abortion rights."
The term "pro-choice" is a brilliant smokescreen, and a wonderful propaganda tool, but it's extremely dishonest.
I can live with "anti-abortion rights." Could you and those who desire the "right to choose" live with "pro-abortion rights" as your label instead of "pro-choice"?

reply from: Eos

Could I stand calling myself pro-abortion-rights? Absolutely. It's a little bit of a clunky title, as is anti-abortion-rights, which I guess is why we've adopted prochoice and prolife, but yes. I am pro-abortion-rights and I am not ashamed to say it to anyone who asks. Not one bit.

reply from: Eos

It's pro-abortion and it's wrong. But I can assure you that the majority of pro-choicers and abortion providers are not like that.
The point I was trying to make is that you were wronged because you were not allowed to decide what to do with your body and your embryo. It was a horrible experience for you; anyone can see that. So you must understand the importance of being allowed to make your own decision. Why, then, are you arguing that all women should have the choice taken away?

reply from: Eos

So, am I to understand that you assert that a woman has an absolute right to refuse to allow her offspring to live, for any reason she deems acceptable?
I believe a woman has a right to decide what becomes of her pregnancy and that, during the first trimester, she should be allowed to have an abortion for any reason, yes. ANY reason.

reply from: ProInformed

Is Obama pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: ProInformed

Is assuring women that the clinics can be trusted as places to go for just a pregnancy test, but then lying to them and pressuring them to abort once they get there, with the excuse that the ONLY reason a woman goes to such a clinic is to get an abortion...
pro-choice or pro-abortion?

reply from: ProInformed

So then how can it be claimed that all women who make an appointment to go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic are specifically making an appointment to go get an abortion, eh? There are numerous posts in this pro-life forum that defend those women being lied to in order to convince them to abort because supposedly the only info they have a right to be told once they get inside such clinics is whatever lies it will take to get them to submit to an abortion.
So are you admitting that all those posters that claimed the ONLY reason to go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic is to get an abortion are LIARS?
So is Eos lying?
Originally posted by: Eos
"Ah, yes. Informed consent. As if a woman is just going to skip into an abortion clinic without any clue as to what is going to happen to her or her embryo there."

reply from: ProInformed

Still waiting for you to prove to us that "Everyone knows exactly what abortion is" joueravecfou... LOL
Well if everyone supposedly already knows exactly what abortion is,
then why so much pro-abort opposition to telling and showing the truth about abortion in sex-ed courses and in abortion clinic 'counseling', eh?
So if what you claim were true then what logical excuse would there be for the abortion industry to fight having women see a sonogram of their baby before having an abortion?
And showing actual photos of aborted babies, videos of abortions being done, and the sketch of how a partial-birth abortion is done ACCORDING TO the way the abortionist who invented it described and taught it to his fellow abortionists, is NOT mere 'semantics'.
Abortion has been legal in the U.S. for over 3 decades and most citizens are not even well-informed on the legal status of abortion let alone how the various abortion methods are done (or that there is more than one abortion method even).
So anyway, since you claim that everyone knows exactly what abortion is,
why don't you describe for us, in detail, exactly what each each abotion method does to the unborn baby, eh?
http://www.lifedynamics.com/Abortion_Information/Pro-life_Product/?id=77

reply from: ProInformed

She once stated that spinny was prolife, so...........
SERIOUSLY?!? LOL
Well than THAT explains a LOT...
So when Yuuki claims she is 'pro-life' she must mean she is 'pro-life' like spinfibby is supposedly 'pro-life'!

reply from: ProInformed

So are you saying that the ONLY reason for going to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic is for the one 'choice' of abortion?
Isn't that the excuse you ar giving to defend the abortion industry lying to women and/or wothholding ifo?
That supposedly any woman who goes to such a clinic has already made up her mind to abort, um even if the reason she made the appointment was just to get a pregnancy test and info?

reply from: Faramir

She once stated that spinny was prolife, so...........
SERIOUSLY?!? LOL
Well than THAT explains a LOT...
So when Yuuki claims she is 'pro-life' she must mean she is 'pro-life' like spinfibby is supposedly 'pro-life'!
Spinwiddy wants abortion to be legal and has no problem with elective abortion.
Do you think that's yuuki's position too?
It's not.
That's a very unfair statement.

reply from: ProInformed

She once stated that spinny was prolife, so...........
SERIOUSLY?!? LOL
Well than THAT explains a LOT...
So when Yuuki claims she is 'pro-life' she must mean she is 'pro-life' like spinfibby is supposedly 'pro-life'!
Spinwiddy wants abortion to be legal and has no problem with elective abortion.
Do you think that's yuuki's position too?
It's not.
That's a very unfair statement.
Um if Yuuki claims spinfibby is 'pro-life' and Yuuki claims that she is 'pro-life' too then it is not *I* who has made an "unfair statement".

reply from: Faramir

I think you have a couple posters confused. It was not yuuki who allegedly called spinwiddy pro-life.

reply from: ProInformed

So then how can it be claimed that all women who make an appointment to go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic are specifically making an appointment to go get an abortion, eh? There are numerous posts in this pro-life forum that defend those women being lied to in order to convince them to abort because supposedly the only info they have a right to be told once they get inside such clinics is whatever lies it will take to get them to submit to an abortion.
So are you admitting that all those posters that claimed the ONLY reason to go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic is to get an abortion are LIARS?
So is Eos lying?
Originally posted by: Eos
"Ah, yes. Informed consent. As if a woman is just going to skip into an abortion clinic without any clue as to what is going to happen to her or her embryo there."
And was Cecelia's response a LIE too when I said:
You ARE saying that ONLY the women who DO want to abort should go to the clinics because once inside the ONLY info and help they should expect to get is an abortion.
Cecelia said:
"I am confused. that's what an abortion clinic is. You walk into a restaurant, they are going to assume you want to eat something."
You can't have it both ways - some or all of you pro-aborts must be LYING because your claims conflict.

reply from: Faramir

I don't know what that is. However, an entire organization will have within it members of both factions no matter what.
From my experience with them and the majority experience of people who have abortions, I'd call them pro-choice. There are a few bad clinics, but that's going to happen no matter what organization you're talking about.
If you are lying in an attempt to get her to abort then it is pro-abortion. If you are lying in an attempt to get her to NOT abort it is anti-woman.
Pro-choice.
Pro-choice.
Proinformed,
Here in the second post of this thread is yuuki calling spinwiddy "pro-choice."
She did not call her "pro-life."
You were mistaken.
Do you have other reasons to equate her with someone who is "pro abort," or was your statement to that effect based on a misunderstanding?

reply from: Yuuki

I did accidentally call her pro-life once, many months ago (before Christmas I think). I was corrected and haven't done it since. I didn't PURPOSELY "lie", it was an accident. I had her confused with scopia at the time, and I was saying scopia was pro-life. And as you proved in this thread, I correctly labeled her as pro-choice now.
Oh, but this may be why he's calling me a pro-abort, because he believes spinny is a pro-abort, so anyone that would dare NOT insult her and call her a pro-abort must be a pro-abort themselves!

reply from: Faramir

I did accidentally call her pro-life once, many months ago (before Christmas I think). I was corrected and haven't done it since. I didn't PURPOSELY "lie", it was an accident. I had her confused with scopia at the time, and I was saying scopia was pro-life. And as you proved in this thread, I correctly labeled her as pro-choice now.
Oh, but this may be why he's calling me a pro-abort, because he believes spinny is a pro-abort, so anyone that would dare NOT insult her and call her a pro-abort must be a pro-abort themselves!
If you're truly a "pro abort" we need more goods on you than a mistake you corrected to call you that.

reply from: Yuuki

I did accidentally call her pro-life once, many months ago (before Christmas I think). I was corrected and haven't done it since. I didn't PURPOSELY "lie", it was an accident. I had her confused with scopia at the time, and I was saying scopia was pro-life. And as you proved in this thread, I correctly labeled her as pro-choice now.
Oh, but this may be why he's calling me a pro-abort, because he believes spinny is a pro-abort, so anyone that would dare NOT insult her and call her a pro-abort must be a pro-abort themselves!
If you're truly a "pro abort" we need more goods on you than a mistake you corrected to call you that.
If I was truly a proabort I'd support abortion in all cases of pregnancy except those where the child is perfectly healthy, the family is financially sound, and there's absolutely no risk at all the the mother. As we well know, such situations do not exist.

reply from: Faramir

As long as this board is unmoderated and as long as crazies like nancyu dominate it without restraint, then that's the baloney we will have here.

reply from: Yuuki

Thank you for saying that, I've been saying it for years, although not recently or so eloquently. The silly thing is, you're SO right that the extremists will immediately reply and say there is no "in between" in regards to this issue. You're either pro-life the way THEY define it, or you're a baby killing pro-abort.

reply from: ProInformed

I created this and other threads to give the self-proclaimed 'pro-choicers' and 'moderates' an opportunity to prove that there is a pro-choice movement.
But you have persistently failed to do so.
The fact remains that there is a pro-abort movement that calls itself 'pro-choice' when it really is just a bunch of abortion industry EXTREMIST lobby groups that are NOT 'pro-choice', NOT 'pro-woman'.
AND they remain unchallenged, and even defended, by those who claim that they
are not pro-abort extremists themselves.
Don't whine at the pro-lifers for not noticing a distinction that clearly is never even made LOL.

reply from: ProInformed

Hey, if the 'pro-chociers' and 'moderates' whine about wanting to be percieved as supposedly different than the pro-abort extremists, then why not give them an opportunity to give descriptions and proof of their claimed difference then, eh?

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You and I are pro-choice as we both respect a woman's right to make that decision for herself.
I am reporting you to the moderator again spinfibby.
The ONLY reason I allowed my baby to be killed by abortion was because I was lied to at the clinic that I went to for a pregnancy test.
I was told I had to abort or that me and my baby would die.

reply from: sk1bianca

spinwiddy understand perfectly what you are saying, she just like to HURT people.
she also finds it stupid to mourn the death of an unborn child or to sacrifice your life for your unborn child. she is a monster. ignore her.

reply from: Yuuki

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You and I are pro-choice as we both respect a woman's right to make that decision for herself.
I am reporting you to the moderator again spinfibby.
The ONLY reason I allowed my baby to be killed by abortion was because I was lied to at the clinic that I went to for a pregnancy test.
I was told I had to abort or that me and my baby would die.
The above post by Spinny contains no profanity and no insults and no threats. There is no need to report it. However, there is a post by Faithman around here full of insults and profanity; you should go report THAT!

reply from: ProInformed

Every woman has these same two questions: First, "Is it a baby?" "No" the counselor assures her. "It is a product of conception (or a blood clot, or a piece of tissue). . .How many women would have an abortion, if they told them the truth?"
--Carol Everett, former owner of two clinics and director of four "A Walk Through an Abortion Clinic" by Carol Everett ALL About Issues magazine Aug-Sept 1991, p 117

reply from: ProInformed

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

And the 'pro-choice' groups, leaders, politicians, AND citizens promote the pro-abort mindset that encourages males to murder the females they impregnate when they can't coerce those females to 'choose' to abort.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=522184&page=1

reply from: yoda

Worth repeating...... even if spinny and fara are tight......

reply from: scopia19822

thank you for posting this proinformed. the deathscorts usaully do not talk to the women they escort into the clinic and are complicit in helping men abuse women by forcing them to abort. in the case of underage girls they could be covering up for a child molester and sending the girl right back home for more abuse.

reply from: yoda

As long as this board is unmoderated and as long as crazies like fara dominate it without restraint, then that's the baloney we will have here.

reply from: scopia19822

I find the crazies amusing.

reply from: ProInformed

thank you for posting this proinformed. the deathscorts usaully do not talk to the women they escort into the clinic and are complicit in helping men abuse women by forcing them to abort. in the case of underage girls they could be covering up for a child molester and sending the girl right back home for more abuse.
Yea, I guess from their pro-abort perspective they think they've 'helped' victims of rapists and child molesters... they certainly act as if they think THE WORST THING about rape, incest, and child abuse is if the victim gets pregnant and the baby is not killed. I guess that is how they convince themself that KILLING THE VICTIM's BABY is somehow 'compassionate'? They help the rapists and molesters cover up their crime, and keep right on committing it, because in their minds the main problem with, the worst thing about what the rapists and molesters are doing is that the baby might not be killed?!?
Such sickos shouldn't be getting away with pretending thay have any concern for the victims.

reply from: ProInformed

'pro-choice/pro-woman'?
Which world-famous American pro-abortion feminist, a co-founder of the
National Organization for Women (NOW), was caught by customs officials
at an airport with a load of sado-masochistic magazines depicting women
in extreme bondage?

reply from: ProInformed

'pro-choice/pro-woman'?
What New York City abortionist (subsequently known as "Zorro" to
his staff) carved his initials on the abdomen of one of his patients with
a scalpel because "I thought I did such a beautiful job, I thought I should
sign it?" (hint: This abortionist worked for an abortion mill that was
subsequently shut down for health and safety violations, and which
shipped women like cattle to unlicensed abortion mills in its
"Happiness Bus!").

reply from: Yuuki

There have been insane people in all professions. What prominent religion covered up a huge pedophelia sex scandal?

reply from: Cecilia

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You and I are pro-choice as we both respect a woman's right to make that decision for herself.
I am reporting you to the moderator again spinfibby.
The ONLY reason I allowed my baby to be killed by abortion was because I was lied to at the clinic that I went to for a pregnancy test.
I was told I had to abort or that me and my baby would die.
how do you know it was a lie? i am curious i think i asked earlier but you did not answer.

reply from: ProInformed

Here'a another example of some 'pro-choice' guys:
http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/519241.html

Now before you choicists start chanting that YOU are 'pro-choice' but not pro-abortion, let's not ignore the FACT that the pro-aborts call themselves 'pro-choice' without your objection, and the 'pro-choice' organizations don't have a problem with such pro-abort extremism in their ranks. Abortion industry employees lie and coerce in order to try to get women to abort, so of course they aren't going to care when others do the same.
SO where ARE the 'pro-choice' groups who speak up against pro-abort lies and coercion?
They do NOT exist, do they?

reply from: ProInformed

OK here's a chance for all those who whine that there is a difference between pro-abortion and pro-choice to give some specific examples of which is which.
Is the NAF pro-abortion or pro-choice?

reply from: 4choice4all

I think all proaborts are prochoice...they think abortion is valid and every woman has a right to choose it.
However, not all prochoicers are proabort...they may not be comfortable with abortion and may never seek one for themselves but they don't believe it should be illegal.

reply from: ProInformed

Originally posted by: Augustine
When we kill the mouse we lie to him when we present him with free food on the trap.
Are we forcing the mouse to take the bait, or are we coercing him with a lie?
In the great scheme of things the lies that the abortion industry tells are far more perverse than if they simply forced woman to abort because by lying they actually lead the woman into making the choice themself

reply from: Yuuki

That is an excellent way of putting it!

reply from: OutsidetheBox

Its kinda wierd but I was reading your posts here Yuuki and I had honestly had you peged completely wrong. You seem very level headed about your choices in the abortion category. Most of the time
Proinformed... I am not currently aware of any ProChoice groups... I think most people who rationaly think about the situation come to the conclusion that Its best to let the women who is having the child to decide. Even though its not a light decision I think that everyone would agree that the women who is the one going through it is best suited to make the choice at that time. Not to say that the person would not benifit from being informed either way, but it comes down to the women making a choice that will hugely change her life either way and that choice can only belong to that women.

reply from: ProInformed

I didn't take any money with me - my mother offered to pay for the pregnancy test at the so-called 'pro-choice/pro-woman' clinic... and I've already posted that my mother was very upset when we got there and found out that they expected payment for an abortion up front even though the appointment was just for a pregnancy test. She argued with them, told them she didn't bring that much cash with her, but they let us into the waiting room because she did have a credit card with her. Apparently THEY were confident that even though my appointment was just for a pregnancy test, and the pregnancy hadn't even been confirmed yet, they could convince me to abort... I wonder if they were one of the clinics that also lied to women about the pregnancy test results and sold abortions to women who were not even pregnant?
If that so-called 'pro-choice clinic' had what you call 'procedure days' (when they ONLY do abortions but not pregnancy tests?) I was not aware of that. If they scheduled my appointment for a pregnancy test on a 'procedure day' that is just more evidence of THEIR deceptive and coercive policies, isn't it?
I worked third shift - I never had to take a day off work for any sort of appointments. I had an appointment for a pregnancy test - I had no idea ahead of time how long I would be there, in the waiting room, in the 'counseling' room, that I was going to be lied to and told I had to have an abortion or my baby and I would both die.
I didn't fast.
My appointment was for a pregnancy test so the clinic receptionist who the appointment was made with never said to fast.
Are women supposed to fast before a pregnancy test?
Are women supposed to fast before an abortion?
Are clinics supposed to tell the women to fast first?
If so then you are pointing out more evidence that the so-called 'safe' clinics have little to no real regard for the lives and safety of the women.
I guess they don't tell the women who are just making an appointment for a pregnancy test to fast because that of course woudln't make sense and would tip the woman off as to their intention to try to sell her an abortion by telling her lies. eh? So you're saying I could have ended up with even more complications than I did have because they did an abortion on me knowing I had not been advised to fast first?!? I guess they didn't care much about my safety, eh?
My fiance didn't know any more about fetal development and abortion methods than my mother and I did at the time.
He didn't pressure me.
He had two older sisters who'd had abortions and as far as he knew at the time their abortions had not caused them any problems.
He had no reason to suspect that the medical community and government would allow the doctors to rip apart fully formed babies, no reason to suspect that the media was helping to cover up such atrocities, no reason to suspect that so-called 'pro-woman' clinics and groups would lie to and endanger women.
He was just as shocked as me when we learned the truth.
You kow spinfibby ALL you're doing with your hateful harrassment, your insults and insinuations spewed at post-aborted women who dare to speak up to try to save other mothers and babies from the tragedy of abortion,
is revealing what a vile pro-abort, anti-choice, anti-woman hater you are.

reply from: 4choice4all

The only valid abortion is the one a prolifer already had.

reply from: scopia19822

I do not feel that way about anyones abortion. All are murder and all are wrong.

reply from: Faramir

Oh, thank you!
You're "level-headed" now?
Have you been working on those headstands too much?

reply from: Yuuki

Oh, thank you!
You're "level-headed" now?
Have you been working on those headstands too much?
I pride myself on being level-headed...
And I've actually had to drop down to about once a week My mom is just too busy with end of the year stuff. Hopefully we can pick up again once the school year is over. Haven't tried any head stands in a while lol. I'm trying to remember what it was I did really well last night...

reply from: Progo35

I think that there is a difference. For instance, I believe that some of the people participating in a recent discussion about abortion vs adoption on RH reality check are actually pro abortion because they despise adoption or parenting an unplanned child, while others on the site and in my world are pro choice because they support the right to choose abortion but are supportive of adoption and parenting as options as well. And, some people are "mixed choice" in that they support abortion rights up until a certain point in the pregnancy but not after that. Some people support unrestricted abortion rights or abortion rights to a certain point but would not have an abortion themselves. There's a broad spectrum, but I definitely think that there's a difference between people who are pro choice and pro abortion. To check out the discussion I referenced, see www.rhrealitycheck.org and type "abortion vs. adoption" into the site search engine.

reply from: yoda

Since no two people are exactly the same, it's a safe bet that no two people's opinions on any complex subject are exactly the same. But does that mean that the general public does not see "proabortion" and "prochoice" as both meaning the same thing? No, it does not, as proven by the simple act of looking those terms up. Why do those of you who promote this myth NEVER, EVER use a dictionary?????
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - pro·a·bor·tion - adjective: PROCHOICE http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proabortion&r=66

Proabortion: PROCHOICE http://dictionary.infoplease.com/proabortion
pro-abortion SYLLABICATION: pro-a·bor·tion PRONUNCIATION: pr-bôrshn ADJECTIVE: Favoring or supporting legalized abortion. http://www.bartleby.com/61/27/P0572700.html

Main Entry: pro·abor·tion adjective Date: 1972 : favoring the legalization of abortion http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=proabortion

COMPARE TO:
pro-choice adjective advocating access to legal abortion: advocating open legal access to voluntary abortion http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/pro-choice.html

reply from: ProInformed

So do you know of any pro-choice organizations:

that do not support abortion-on-demand for the entire nine months of pregnancy?
that support granting pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent?
that challenge the abortion industry in any way to clean up their act?
that are not just abortion industry lobby groups?

reply from: ProInformed

So do you know of any pro-choice organizations:

that do not support abortion-on-demand for the entire nine months of pregnancy?
that support granting pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent?
that challenge the abortion industry in any way to clean up their act?
that are not just abortion industry lobby groups?
Bumping for Progo35.
"some people are "mixed choice" in that they support abortion rights up until a certain point in the pregnancy but not after that"
Are there any 'pro-choice' groups that support that position?

reply from: 4given

"I was told to antagonize the pro-lifers and I made the girls throw out any pro-life literature before entering the clinic. ... We would tell them, "Those people out there are terrorists, it's safer in here. They're crazy." I even told one group, "That woman out there was just released from Meadowview Mental Hospital. Don't talk to her; she killed her family." ... As soon as I got here last August, I joined the "Freedom of Choice Action League." They're big at Pine and Market. Some of them practice witchcraft and sometimes they chalk pentagrams [a Satanic symbol] on the sidewalks. ... I had written about how they openly practice witchcraft and how the clinic director tells us, every time we beat up the pro-lifers, to cover their cameras. ... I wrote [in an editorial to the Wichita Eagle] that pro-abortionists displayed sex toys in front of children and how they dumped semen and urine on people at national rescues. I personally defaced churches, LIFE, Inc., and HopeNet. I apologize for that. ... They hate God, they're anti-Christian ...
"Pro-abortionists are the terrorists, not the pro-lifers. They're the ones throwing bricks through people's windows and doing obscene things. I was shocked when I went to the Crypt to pray and they were screaming and yelling, shouting obscenities, while all the pro-lifers were praying silently."
- Reformed pro-abortion activist Raymond Rivera.

reply from: Cecilia

i agree, while i felt as desperate as can be and coerced into it, i still made the choice to go through with it. i am not 'pushing pansies'.

reply from: ProInformed

Here's another one for the lunatic fringe thread, eh?

reply from: Yuuki

Pro, YOU ARE the lunatic fringe, at least in your behavior on here. I don't think your actual beliefs are as extreme as your nasty behavior is. Actually, I think we agree on most topics, but you're so violent and angry that I don't even want to talk to you most of the time.

reply from: yoda

You just don't understand passion on this issue, do you? You want to make intellectual arguments and boost your ego, but you don't really feel any passion about this subject, and you suspect anyone that does, right?

reply from: scopia19822

You just don't understand passion on this issue, do you? You want to make intellectual arguments and boost your ego, but you don't really feel any passion about this subject, and you suspect anyone that does, right?
More words of wisdom from Yuuki

reply from: Yuuki

You just don't understand passion on this issue, do you? You want to make intellectual arguments and boost your ego, but you don't really feel any passion about this subject, and you suspect anyone that does, right?
More words of wisdom from Yuuki
I don't know if you're defending me or not... you're not usually one to make hurtful remarks so I'd honestly be surprised if you're insulting me.
As for "boosting egos", that's all ProInformed does. She used to be very sane when she first got here but now she's ranting and raving and foaming at the mouth... Screaming at people on the net is a great way to "boost your ego", so the fact that I don't normally do so should be proof enough that I'm not here for my ego.

reply from: 4choice4all

Is passion code for psychosis?

reply from: Yuuki

It seems like it around here <_< But I am not an outwardly passionate person about many "deep" things. I was raised to be reserved about such things. As Yoda has seen, I can go off like a firecracker on certain issues, like spanking for example.

reply from: ProInformed

Ah but you don't seem to have any problem with spinfibby hatefully insulting and attacking post-aborted women do you?
I used to believe we agreed on some topics but your persistant defense of the abortion industry and the pro-abort trolls, INSTEAD of defending the women they lie to, harm, and harrass has revealed that you are still alligned and allied with the pro-aborts much more than you admit.

reply from: Yuuki

Ah but you don't seem to have any problem with spinfibby hatefully insulting and attacking post-aborted women do you?
I used to believe we agreed on some topics but your persistant defense of the abortion industry and the pro-abort trolls, INSTEAD of defending the women they lie to, harm, and harrass has revealed that you are still alligned and allied with the pro-aborts much more than you admit.
Actually if you paid even a spit of attention, you'll have seen me reprimanding her MANY times. I absolutely, 100% DISAGREE with her belief that women can't be forced to abort. And I absolutely, 100% DISAGREE with her that you had your abortion completely willingly. I don't know what really happened; how can I know? You say you were forced, and I believe that emotional force is real. But I also can't really believe they'd give you an abortion without a consultation or an ultrasound. So I really don't know what to think. If they DID do all that with no pre-planning, then that is the absolute HELL of all clinics I've ever heard of and needs to be shut down immediately. They could have KILLED you if what you say is true.

reply from: ProInformed

http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa080301a.htm

reply from: Yuuki

Yes, post a link instead of responding to me.


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