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there is no such thing as a 'pro-choice' movement

never has been

by: ProInformed

apparently never will be...

reply from: ProInformed

Liar - that was the pro-abortion movement.

reply from: ProInformed

MY choice was to let my baby live - I spoke up and said so - but the pro-abort pretenda-nurse wanted to make her commission for selling another abortion so she lied to me and told me I had to have an abortion or else I would most likely die and that my baby was going to die anyway.
Ah, but your definition of 'pro-choice' says it's OK to lie to women in order to SELL an abortion; and you think it's OK to make fun of women who are coerced and conned into aborting, don't you?
You are SO confident that no matter how clearly pro-abort the clinics are, no matter how viley anti-woman, anti-choice, and pro-abort you show yourself to be, the ones who whine about not wanting to be grouped in with you pro-aborts won't speak up against you and distinguish themselves from you in that way, right?
Admit it, no matter how many times you reveal your true pro-abort stance in this forum you aren't the slightest bit worried that those who whine they THEY are not pro-abort are going to criticize you or call you a pro-abort, huh? The truth is you think they are as pathetic as I do with all their whining that they are different than the pro-aborts... yet they don't feel compelled to complain TO or ABOUT the pro-aborts, eh? LOL

reply from: ProInformed

And another lie.
My pro-abort mother insisted I go to the clinic, supposedly just to get a pregnancy test done and to 'have my questions answered and to be todl about my options'.
But then we found out the clinic insisted on payment up front, they had a little gate so we couldn't even go into the waiting room until after payment.
My mother argued with them about this because she knew I didn't want to get an abortion, was worried I probably wouldn't, and she wouldn't get her money back.
She was hoping they would talk me into it;
I was honestly hoping to hear truthful answers about fetal development and options so I could have some help in resisting the pressure being put on me to abort. If the clinic really WERE pro-choice I wold have been told the truth and they would have helped me stand up to my pressuring pro-abort mother.
If there really had been a pro-choice movement then THEY would have been warning women like me not to trust that the pretenda-pro-choice clinics would tell the truth, and would have been trying to get the laws changed so it would not be legal for clinics to lie to women just to try to sell more abortions. THEY would not have been FALSELY ASSuring women like me that even if you were not pro-choice yourself, AND didn't want to have an abortion yourself, it would be safe for you to go to a pro-choice clinic to get a pregnancy test done AND to get help with choosing NOT TO ABORT. If I had known what I know now I would have known that the clinics are pro-abortion, not pro-choice, that they DISHONESTLY PRETEND (just like YOU do spinfibby) that every single women who goes to a clinic is 'pro-choice' and wants an abortion, that she doesn't just want a pregnancy test and to be TOLD THE FACTS, and given NON-ABORTION options assistance.
I was NOT 'pro-choice' and did not want to abort my baby.
I didn't like it that my parents had made my sister abort HER baby after she had been raped. I was not pro-choice (not yet - not until I tried to deny my true feelings in an ultimately failed attempt to convince myself the abortion was OK because I didn't know how else to try deal with the reality and grief of my baby bieng killed). But I did believe that the clinics were pro-choice as they claimed.
Why would I suspect they wouldn't help me to choose NOT to abort? After all, there were NO pro-choicers warning women to NOT go near a clinic UNLESS they wanted to have their baby killed!
You ARE admitting that women should NOT believe that the clinics are pro-choice as they claim to be - that they are ONLY pro-abortion and the ONLY thing they will offer women is a dead baby.
You ARE saying that ONLY the women who DO want to abort should go to the clinics because once inside the ONLY info and help they should expect to get is an abortion.
Yet, we've never once heard you WARNING women of that fact so they can stay away from clinics UNLESS they are pro-choice AND want an abortion, have we?
And you're not exactly advocating for clinics to REALLY be pro-choice instead of por-abortion, are you?
You can't have it both ways spinfibby:
Either stop defending the clinics that are pro-abortion instead of pro-choice or stop attacking the women who try to inform other women that the clinics are pro-abortion instead of pro-choice.
Either women should deserve and EXPECT other info and options besides abortion inside 'pro-choice' clinics, or they should be told beforehand that the clinics are not really 'pro-choice'.
You are not merely being lazy and neglectful when you don't bother to tell women BEFORE they go to a clinic that AFTERWARDS you are going to pretend that if they went inside you will accuse them of being 'pro-choice' and of wanting and 'choosing' abortion.
You pro-aborts criticize the pro-lifers who picket outside 'pro-choice' clinics for assuming that every woman who goes inside is 'pro-choice' and planning to abort her baby, right? Well don't you make the exact same ASSumption (accusation), spinfibby?
Angry, violent pro-abort 'clinic escorts' do all they can to keep the women going into the supposedly 'pro-choice' clinics from seeing the FACTS about fetal development and abortion methods, won't even let them hav the info about help with non-violent options and assistance, you rush (and bully) the women inside, pretending that once inside they will of course be told the truth... but then you excuse the lies, and leaving out the truth, and the hard-sell tactics by pretending the ONLY reason a woman would come to a 'pro-choice' clinic is to have an abortion, that her mind is already made up and she doesn't expect to find any other info or options there, right?
ALL you have done is provide even more proof that you are pro-abortion, and so are the clinics you defend, AND the movement you are a part of.

reply from: ProInformed

You evil lying witch!
How dare you!!!
I didn't exactly happily hop up onto that table.
I WAS LIED TO!
I had just been told the tragic (and completely FALSE) bad news that my baby was going to die anyway and that if I didn't let them do the abortion I might die too. I was crying so much they yelled at me to stop crying. I was shaking uncontrollably. It was the most horrible and disgusting and tragic thing to happen to BOTH me and my baby.
You are a filthy hateful pig for lying about and making fun of what was done to me and my baby, and ANYONE who condones your pro-abort hatefulness, who just keeps quiet while you try to bully post-aborted women from exposing the truth about the abortion clinics, is just as pro-abort and anti-woman as you are!
You think your repulsive posts will stop me from trying to warn other women?
So women won't find out about how the clinics lie to women and ONLY offer abortions and nothing else? NOPE!
All you are doing is PROVING that YOU and the clinics you defedn are NOT 'pro-choice' but really are pro-abortion.
AND you are also helping us pro-lifers identify the pretenda-pro-choicers too, the ones who sit by and say nothing in protest against your anti-woman, pro-abortion hate-posts, who are apparently not too bothered to hear you describe your POV as being the pro-choice POV.

reply from: sk1bianca

no woman ever "wants" to have an abortion. so abortion is not a real "choice". it's something she feels pressured to do (for whatever reason).
so i guess proinformed is right. there is no pro-choice movement. just people who would rather see a woman do something she doesn't want, instead of helping her.

reply from: Banned Member

Some women do choose and want to have an abortion when they become pregnant. They make that decision very simply with cold businesslike precision. It is not a debate within the conscience whatsoever, because the culture and the abortion industry has brainwashed them into believing that there should not be a problem with their conscience. Abortion happens because the abortion industry lies about abortion and because abortion is legal.

reply from: sk1bianca

what i meant to say was that abortion is an unpleasant procedure. you have to pay for it, it involves a strager touching your genitals, it hurts and is usualy not something you want to talk about.
the only reason women choose it is to get rid of the baby. that is the purpose of abortion, to prevent the baby from being born (alive).

reply from: ProInformed

Actually even though many (maybe most) women do not REALLY 'want' or 'choose' to abort - not minus pro-abort coercion and lies (AND OBVIOUSLY the aborton industry agrees or why else would they lie to women?), I have personally met (online and IRL) many women who did choose to abort, who INSIST it was what they wanted and chose. Also, one woman I know has had 4 abortions (at last count) and brags she feels no remorse, doesn't bother with BC (laughs and says abortion IS the only BC she needs), and doesn't see anything at all wrong with what she's doing.
I don't see any reason for pro-lifers (or real pro-choicers either for that matter) to pretend that ALL women who abort do so minus coercion and deception, OR that ALL women who abort do so only because of coecion and deception.
I would still prefer to believe that MOST women wouldn't kill their own baby if they were told the truth and not bullied... and again the abortion industry must agree because they still so adamently defend the lies and ignore the coercion (so they can sell more abortion$$$)... but we can't deny the fact that some women want to be able to behave just as sexually sleazily and irresponsibly as the lounge-lizard playboy type of male. They think bimboism is feminism and abortion is what they demand in order to be as bimbonic as the bimboys the emulate.
Also, in general, both promiscuity and sociopathy are on the rise in our society.
There's no need to overlook the evidence that females are involved in these negative trends too.
Feminism is not the belief that females simply can't be expected to behave responsibly or civilly, nor the flip side of the same coin that says whatever a female chooses to do it must be considered acceptable. Feminism is NOT the notion that females are either below OR above the standards of civil behavior.
Being a female is not inherently being a victim and there is no 'feminist' excuse for females knowingly, willingly, making innocent babies the victims of fatal violence.
For a brief period I wanted to start a REAL pro-choice movement... before I learned 'too much' and became pro-life instead. I've met many others who couldn't help but notice the glaring lack of a REAL pro-choice movement, but they either became pro-life like I did, already were pro-life, or just wouldn't do anything about it.

reply from: sk1bianca

wow... is she sick in the head or does she simply enjoy having her kids ripped out of her body?

reply from: Cecilia

so your mother pressured you into having an abortion. that's terrible, I'm sorry.
i guess no woman should be able to choose abortion then. that's the only thing that makes logical sense.
"You ARE saying that ONLY the women who DO want to abort should go to the clinics because once inside the ONLY info and help they should expect to get is an abortion. "
I am confused. that's what an abortion clinic is. You walk into a restaurant, they are going to assume you want to eat something.

reply from: Cecilia

on the flip side, you walk into a women's crisis center and you are going to hear all kinds of lies about abortion and religion, and get fed a story that babies are easy peasy and they will help you every step of the way...every step until baby past viability or born, and then, if you need help they will make fun of you for filing for WIC or welfare benefits. they will vote so that social services are limited for single mothers, and they will preach about your hellbound self unless you tithe to Jesus every week.
i wonder if abortion becomes illegal will the crisis centers disappear since their only goal is to oppose choice?

reply from: Yuuki

No it isn't.
It is law. Whether you consider it morally wrong is your own choice. But there is a LAW stating a woman can get an abortion. This law exists.

reply from: nancyu

No it isn't.
It is law. Whether you consider it morally wrong is your own choice. But there is a LAW stating a woman can get an abortion. This law exists.
A LAW (or several) also exists which states the opposite.

reply from: cracrat

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. Nobody would ever "want" to have chemotherapy, the hair loss, loss of appetite and associated weight problems, endless vomiting, generally feeling like s**t for weeks/months on end. But plenty of people choose to go through it because they can not or will not face the alternative. Millions of women every year choose to have an abortion because they decide, for whatever reason, that they can not face the alternative. To state that every woman who has an abortion was pressured into it in some way is to deny their decision making faculty and I would suggest a grave insult to a large proportion of them.

reply from: ProInformed

They don't have to do anything because abortion is already legal!?!?
So ALL they care about is that abortion is legal, BUT they do NOT care about the fact that the promised health and safety regulations that legalization was supposed to bring, that were promised, that Roe v Wade said were to be put into place by legislative efforts, are FOUGHT by the abortion industry and thier lobby groups? So it's OK with them that women are lied to, and injured, and killed inside so-called 'safe & legal', so-called 'pro-woman/pro-choice clinics?!? So it's OK that clinic staff look the other way when rapists and pedophiles bring in their victims to get abortions SO THEY CAN HIDE THEIR CRIMES AND CONTINUE abusing their victims? So females being coerced and conned into aborting is no cause to DO anything? Forced abortion in China is no cause to DO anything?
Any groups that is SO content with the EXTREMELY PRO-ABORT status quo, to the point that they don't feel they need to DO anything, just BECAUSE abortion is already legal, is most definitely NOT pro-choice!!!
So legal IS really ALL that matters to 'pro-choicers', eh?
NOT 'safe'? NOT a woman's right to make an INFORMED choice free of coercion?
Um that is what you call 'pro-choice'? Sounds like the exact same agenda as the pro-aborts!
And what exactly was their stance on the right of a doctor to say no to doing abortions? Are you saying they spoke up against all the other 'pro-choice' groups and sided with the doctors' right to choose? Or are you saying that you think it is 'pro-choice' to force somebody to become complicit in abortions?
And wasn't the bill protecting the conscience protection right sponsored and supported by pro-lifers - and opposed by 'pro-choicers'?
"It was pushed by pro-choicers"? WHAT?!?

reply from: ProInformed

Liar - non-violent REAL feminist women have been helping each other care for their children throughout history - that won't change.
And the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers aren't the ones pretending to be 'pro-choice' so why should they say nasty, hateful, discouraging things to women to try to get them to abort? We aren't selling abortions and therefore don't have the same motive your side has to try to scare, shame, and worry women into aborting. The info given at pro-life crisis pregnancy centers is pretty much the same info given in prenatal classes for expecting couples a few months later (if the baby isn't aborted). You liars are just pi$$ed whenever you lose an abortion sale because a mother learns the truth at a crisis pregnancy center.
The so-called 'pro-choice' clinics fight legislative efforts to give women the facts and to be required to give women info about ALL the other choices besides abortion, and YOU want to criticize pro-life clinics, that don't claim to be 'pro-choice', for not promoting the one 'choice' of abortion?
And really, if you WERE 'pro-choice' what business would it even be of yours if a mother goes to a crisis pregnancy center instead of an abortion clinic? Do you think women are not capable of listening to the info, determining for themselves what to believe, and then making their own choice? Oh, but you choicists claim that it's OK to LIE to women and to withhold info, and then when they abort YOU pretend THEN it was her "choice', right? You don't want women to be able to have the CHOICE of going to a pro-life crisis pregnancy center instead of an abortion clinic, do you?

reply from: ProInformed

Are you sorry? Really? Are ANY of the 'pro-choice' groups that represent you 'pro-choicers' ever going to support legislation that makes it illegal to try to push somebody to have an abortion? Do 'pro-choice' groups endorse efforts to punish clinic staff who try to pressure women to abort, or who fail to report such coercion to the authorities? NOPE. The 'pro-choice' groups side with the abortion industry against the women.
And if you think it's OK to assume that any woman who walks into an abortion clinic has already made up her mind to abort, then WHY aren't you 'pro-choicer's WARNING women that is the assumption that will be made if they go to a 'pro-choice' clinic?!? WHY is it OK with you for women to be falsley assured that clinics are 'pro-choice' when they really ARE ONLY pro-abortion, and WHY aren't you warning women to get all their questions answered and find out all the info they can BEFORE they go to the clinic, that they WILL NOT get ANY info or ANY help with ANY OTHER choices besides going through with an abortion once they are inside the clinic?
So do you warn women that just want to get a pregnancy test to NOT GO TO a 'pro-choice' clinic? Do you warn women that have not made their mind up yet, to NOT GO TO a 'pro-choice' clinic? Because you admit that 'pro-choice' clinics really are just for the one choice of abortion, right?

reply from: ProInformed

Some women are pressured and lied to in order to get them to abort;
others want to abort and do so rather casually and flippantly.
Why should the flippancy of the women who abort casually be used as an excuse to deny all other women the right to make a fully-informed, coercion-free choice?
And when women go to a crisis pregnancy center instead of a 'pro-choice' clinic,
don't you choicers insinuate they don't have an adequate decision-making faculty to process the info given there for themselves?

reply from: churchmouse

Yes and I would have given anything had abortion been illlegal, I would not have been able to kill my unborn.
I wish I had been locked up or restrained to keep me from making the immoral choice that I made.
I was lied to as well. Information was kept from me....nevertheless I should have known better because I was a Christian and didn't give it a thought.
PlannedParenthood still lies to women and our government allows them to do it. In fact they help them.
Not true. Many women today know exactly what they are doing and they dont care. Since Roe, anti-abortion groups have succeeded in getting scientific information out. I see the woman walk into clinics evey Sunday morning to kill their babies. They have to walked pass our signs, (some graphic) to get into the clinic. I did not walk passed any signs. Kids on college campuses see abortion exhibits....and the word is out on abortion today. Pressure or not......the woman is the one who makes the decision.
We have counselors there that try to talk to them before going into the clinic. We offer help.

Last week we had a girl flip us off when she walked to her car to leave. She was laughing hyterically. She might not have been upset at the time......but believe me, one day she probably will regret her actions when she is faced with the truth.
Yuuki the RCRC is an evil evil evil group. They are as bad if not worse than the Army of God. They claim to be god fearing people and they mock the Word.
And spinwiddy I know of woman who have had over ten abortions.
No you don't. What lies could they tell about abortion? It's a killing procedure. The abortionists goal is simply to kill that which is living in the womb. Abortion is a painful procedure, and there are risks. And the more abortions a woman has the more risks. That is fact.
The majority of women who get abortions are embarrassed and dont want people to know simply because even though abortion is legal, they dont want anyone to know that they killed a living human being. Most women regret their abortion and suffer silently. No statistial data on this because women wont come forward, they want to forget and hide what they did.
Cecilia it's so sad that you cant see that abortion is killing. Its sad that you think killing is ok. Why do you feel this way? Why do you hate unborn children? Do you think you could assist or perform an abortion yourself? Are you so full of hate that watching one wouldnt bother you? Not much blood but a lot of little tiny body parts.....you think you could take that?
I mean could you stand next to a full term woman and watch the abortionist kill her viable child?
You not only hate life but you hate those who love God. I feel so sorry for you.

reply from: Cecilia

goodness gracious. have you jumped the ship or what. abortion is killing i never denied that, and i don't hate anyone.
i said that people will preach about your hellbound self unless you tithe to Jesus and you get out of that "you hate those who love God". Watching an abortion or assisting would not "bother me" but I have had medical training. and then you get out of my comments that that I hate life. and then ask if I would stand next to a full term woman and watch the child killed. what abortion doctor kills full term children? ?? how is that even appropriate question?
I am talkiing about prolife people who are conservatives they are not voting to help single mothers, they are the people complaining about what mother on WIC buy, or what people on welfare do, or the lies they say about abortion, or childrearing, or the use of religion to create laws for the masses. Why doesn't someone have a comment on that, instead of saying "you liar" or "you hate life" or "you hate unborn children".
is there no logical response so people just try to bring you down with person attacks.

reply from: Cecilia

Liar - non-violent REAL feminist women have been helping each other care for their children throughout history - that won't change.
And the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers aren't the ones pretending to be 'pro-choice' so why should they say nasty, hateful, discouraging things to women to try to get them to abort? We aren't selling abortions and therefore don't have the same motive your side has to try to scare, shame, and worry women into aborting. The info given at pro-life crisis pregnancy centers is pretty much the same info given in prenatal classes for expecting couples a few months later (if the baby isn't aborted). You liars are just pi$$ed whenever you lose an abortion sale because a mother learns the truth at a crisis pregnancy center.
The so-called 'pro-choice' clinics fight legislative efforts to give women the facts and to be required to give women info about ALL the other choices besides abortion, and YOU want to criticize pro-life clinics, that don't claim to be 'pro-choice', for not promoting the one 'choice' of abortion?
And really, if you WERE 'pro-choice' what business would it even be of yours if a mother goes to a crisis pregnancy center instead of an abortion clinic? Do you think women are not capable of listening to the info, determining for themselves what to believe, and then making their own choice? Oh, but you choicists claim that it's OK to LIE to women and to withhold info, and then when they abort YOU pretend THEN it was her "choice', right? You don't want women to be able to have the CHOICE of going to a pro-life crisis pregnancy center instead of an abortion clinic, do you?
you have a right to be angry with those who compelled you to abort. how old were you?
and after thinking I can see your point that women go to abortoin clinics maybe thinking to learn something about pregnancy, about their choices but they have an abortion instead of learning something or have abortion because that's what is expected there.
if you go to a steakhouse they aren't going to turn you into vegetarian.

reply from: ProInformed

Of course women have a right to be angry when they are lied to and/or coerced to do something AND they also have a right to demand that it not be legally allowed for women to continue to be treated that way. Any truly pro-choice person would support legislation to punish those who treat women that way.

reply from: ProInformed

Of course women go to 'pro-choice' clinics expecting to be told the truth and to not be pressured to abort. Isn't that what you choicers assure women will happen in 'pro-choice' clinics? Where are the warnings from 'pro-choicers' that women should NOT go to clinics UNLESS they have already gotten all their questions answered and have made up their mind TO abort? When pro-lifers and post-aborted women try to warn women that the ONLY info and 'help' the clinics will offer is to get an abortion, don't you choicers call us liars?
So why are clinics called 'pro-choice' if THE ONLY choice they offer is abortion?
Why not call them pro-abortion instead of pretending they will give the women info and help about other choices?
If you go to a steakhouse which is falsely advertised as a buffet-style restaurant, supposedly offering choiceS besides steak, and then after you get inside they ONLY offer steak and use hard-sell tactics to try to get you to buy the steak, and they have on staff a pretenda-nurse who tells you you need the steak for health reason, and vegetarians are taken there by people who wan tot pressure them into eating steak, and the staff sees this coercion and sides with the coercers instead ofthe vegetarians, then you try to warn others that they really aren't a place that offers choiceS, not a pro-choice buffet, they ONLY sell steak, and then they made fun of those who tried to warn others about the deception...
Would it REALLY be 'anti-steak' to object to the steakhouse pretending to be a buffet?
Would it REALLY be pro-choice, would it REALLY be a buffet?
Or just a pro-steak, non-buffet (anti-choice) business?
Wouldn't there be people who would reasonably object to the deception, even if they weren't 'anti-steak' (vegetarians)?
And wouldn't it also be reasonable for people who are vegetarians to expect to have other choices available beside steak at a place that advertises itself as offering a buffet of choices?
Choicers do NOT warn women that the clinics are really just pro-abortion do you? You tell women that they are 'pro-choice'. That's a lie.
And then you make fun of the women who trusted you and believed your lie.
What would be so wrong with just telling the truth - just telling women that the clinics are not pro-choice, they're just pro-abortion? How can it be 'pro-woman' to assure women that the clinics are 'pro-choice', to pretend that they will be told the truth there and given info about other options, but then to make fun of them afterwards for trusting you?

reply from: ProInformed

goodness gracious. have you jumped the ship or what. abortion is killing i never denied that, and i don't hate anyone.
i said that people will preach about your hellbound self unless you tithe to Jesus and you get out of that "you hate those who love God". Watching an abortion or assisting would not "bother me" but I have had medical training. and then you get out of my comments that that I hate life. and then ask if I would stand next to a full term woman and watch the child killed. what abortion doctor kills full term children? ?? how is that even appropriate question?
I am talkiing about prolife people who are conservatives they are not voting to help single mothers, they are the people complaining about what mother on WIC buy, or what people on welfare do, or the lies they say about abortion, or childrearing, or the use of religion to create laws for the masses. Why doesn't someone have a comment on that, instead of saying "you liar" or "you hate life" or "you hate unborn children".
is there no logical response so people just try to bring you down with person attacks.
This thread is about the mysteriously missing pro-choice movement.
There are plenty of other threads where you choicers spread negative stereotypes about pro-lifers.
Do you have anything to say about the obvious lack of a real pro-choice movement?
(hint: A pro-choice movement would not simply defend abortion being legal but do nothing to ensure that women are not lied to and coerced in order to get them to buy an abortion - THAT is the pro-abortion movement that you 'pro-chociers' are letting get away with calling itself pro-choice.)

reply from: ProInformed

Don't be so bloody ridiculous. Nobody would ever "want" to have chemotherapy, the hair loss, loss of appetite and associated weight problems, endless vomiting, generally feeling like s**t for weeks/months on end. But plenty of people choose to go through it because they can not or will not face the alternative. Millions of women every year choose to have an abortion because they decide, for whatever reason, that they can not face the alternative. To state that every woman who has an abortion was pressured into it in some way is to deny their decision making faculty and I would suggest a grave insult to a large proportion of them.
Do you have anything to say about the topic of this thread?
Why is there only a pro-abort movement posing as a pro-choice movement,
but no real pro-choice movement?

reply from: ProInformed

Um you're kidding, right?
You're pretending that this is proof that protecting the conscience objection right of health care providers "was pushed by pro-choicers"?
http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/InGoodConscience.pdf

reply from: ProInformed

Spinfibby I don't know who 'Heather' is and I was not the one who made those posts at Jill Stanek's site. I have reported you to the moderator for your relentless stalking, lying, and harrassment. You really are showing yourself to be a pro-abort fanatic, frantically foaming at the mouth in rage because you don't like me warning other women about the abortion industry.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Heather, that was SO lame...
C'mon! The stories you told on the Jill Stanek board featured women who had 8, 9, 10 abortions and couldn't WAIT to have more!
I know that you're pinched for time - you did tell us how "butch" militant pro-abortion lesbians break into your backyard to photograph your children and you are probably exhausted from chasing them away, but could you embellish your ridiculous stories some more? My dish is down and I'm starving for entertainment.
I don't know any women personally who've had that many abortions.
The woman I know who has had 4 abortions is the most I know of personally.
As to the pro-abort lesbian who was stalking my children - that was a long time ago and I've moved away from there. You apparently think that was funny and that it's OK for 'pro-choicers' to harrass pro-lifers that way. Don't ANY of the 'pro-choicers' posting here disagree with spinfibby's notion of what is acceptable 'pro-choice' advocacy?

reply from: ProInformed

Wow, so you didn't just make 'Heather' up, eh?
(or did you? Is 'Heather' really YOU spinfibby, posing as a pro-lifer?)
Well, anyway 'Heather' is not me.

reply from: Yuuki

They don't have to do anything because abortion is already legal!?!?
So ALL they care about is that abortion is legal, BUT they do NOT care about the fact that the promised health and safety regulations that legalization was supposed to bring, that were promised, that Roe v Wade said were to be put into place be legislative efforts, are FOUGHT by the abortion industry and thier lobby groups? So it's OK with them that women are lied to, and injured, and killed inside so-called 'safe & legal', so-called 'pro-woman/pro-choice clinics?!? So it's OK that clinic staff look the other way when rapists and pedophiles bring in their victims to get abortions SO THEY CAN HIDE THEIR CRIMES AND CONTINUE abusing their victims? So females being coerced and conned into aborting is no cause to DO anything? Forced abortion in China is no cause to DO anything?
Any groups that is SO content with the EXTREMELY PRO-ABORT status quo, to the point that they don't feel they need to DO anything, just BECAUSE abortion is already legal, is most definitely NOT pro-choice!!!
So legal IS really ALL that matters to 'pro-choicers', eh?
NOT 'safe'? NOT a woman's right to make an INFORMED choice free of coercion?
Um that is what you call 'pro-choice'?
And what exactly was their stance on the right of a doctor to say no to doing abortions? Are you saying they spoke up against all the other 'pro-choice' groups and sided with the doctors' right to choose? Or are you saying that you think it is 'pro-choice' to force somebody to become complicit in abortions?
And wasn't the bill protecting the conscience protection right sponsored and supported by pro-lifers - and opposed by 'pro-choicers'?
"It was pushed by pro-choicers"? WHAT?!?
It's legal, and it is safe (for the mother). It is in fact one of the safest surgeries performed in this nation, and one of the most common. As for the right of the doctor to say no, they felt the woman's HEALTH and right to control her own body was more important than someone's morals. They feel a doctor should not be able to refuse to refer a woman for an abortion if she feels she needs one just because the doctor is pro-life. They feel the woman's life is worth more than an opinion. You know what "pushed" means, I assume.

reply from: Yuuki

Um you're kidding, right?
You're pretending that this is proof that protecting the conscience objection right of health care providers "was pushed by pro-choicers"?
http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/InGoodConscience.pdf
I did not say the RCRC pushed it, I said pro-choicers pushed it. The fact that you have brought up this article means nothing, since we know that not everyone always agrees with everyone else. Even pro-lifers don't agree on everything. Do our disagreements mean the pro-life movement does not exist? Of course not. The Republican party does not agree on everything, but that does not mean they don't really exist.

reply from: yoda

George Tiller of Wichita, KS.

reply from: yoda

NOTHING is more important than our morals, and certainly not the "control" to kill your baby. That's ridiculous.

reply from: Yuuki

NOTHING is more important than our morals, and certainly not the "control" to kill your baby. That's ridiculous.
That is your subjective opinion. Some people believe their freedom is more important than anything else; others believe family is more important. But no single one of us has a right to force our beliefs on anyone else without their permission.

reply from: churchmouse

So killing a living human being.....watching it be dismembered wouldn't bother you? Wow.
Medical training or not......I am not talking about just blood here. I am talking about watching a human being dismembered alive. You think this is like any other medical procedure? What other medical procedure is like an abortion?
If this isn't hating life I don't know what is, sorry.
There are third tem abortions done , are you denying they never happen? And if you think abortion isn't bad, then why would aborting a third term baby be any different than aborting one at 3 months.....5 months?
Like it or not our country started with laws from God. Clergy and church had a big part in our founding. I dont care what anyone says, we might not be Christian today but the historical facts show that we grew from Christian principles and those prinicples affected our laws.
Dewitt Clinton, the Framer who introduced the 12th Amendment said, "The laws which regulate our conduct are the laws of man and the laws of God. . . . The sanctions of the Divine law . . . cover the whole area of human action."

Another Framer John Witherspoon, said, "To promote true religion is the best and most effectual way of making a virtuous and regular people. Love to God and love to man is the substance of religion; when these prevail, civil laws will have little to do."
He also said that "The Ten Commandments . . . are the sum of the moral law."
Did you know that in the U. S. Supreme Court building there are two displays of the Ten Commandments. One is on the entry into the Chamber, where, engraved on the lower half of the two large oak doors, are the Ten Commandments. The other display of the commandments is in the Chamber itself on a marble frieze carved above the Justices' heads.
And all over this land we cant display them in our public buildings or schools. Unbelievable. Why are they displayed in Washington?
Gee how did I attack you?
Every law we have ever had forces us to buy into something that we might not agree with. Every Supreme Court justice has had a bias and votes according to that bias and so do lawyers, judges and jurys.

reply from: Yuuki

Laws are decided by the masses, not by a single person. That is what I meant by my statement. No single individual has a right to restrict the rights of everyone else, based solely on their own personal and subjective morals.

reply from: Cecilia

goodness gracious. have you jumped the ship or what. abortion is killing i never denied that, and i don't hate anyone.
i said that people will preach about your hellbound self unless you tithe to Jesus and you get out of that "you hate those who love God". Watching an abortion or assisting would not "bother me" but I have had medical training. and then you get out of my comments that that I hate life. and then ask if I would stand next to a full term woman and watch the child killed. what abortion doctor kills full term children? ?? how is that even appropriate question?
I am talkiing about prolife people who are conservatives they are not voting to help single mothers, they are the people complaining about what mother on WIC buy, or what people on welfare do, or the lies they say about abortion, or childrearing, or the use of religion to create laws for the masses. Why doesn't someone have a comment on that, instead of saying "you liar" or "you hate life" or "you hate unborn children".
is there no logical response so people just try to bring you down with person attacks.
This thread is about the mysteriously missing pro-choice movement.
There are plenty of other threads where you choicers spread negative stereotypes about pro-lifers.
Do you have anything to say about the obvious lack of a real pro-choice movement?
(hint: A pro-choice movement would not simply defend abortion being legal but do nothing to ensure that women are not lied to and coerced in order to get them to buy an abortion - THAT is the pro-abortion movement that you 'pro-chociers' are letting get away with calling itself pro-choice.)
Trying to control conversation like youd like to control women.
and you know these aren't stereotypes. look at the kind of congressman who votes against legal abortion, and look at their voting records for social services. Reagan: against abortion and did so much to limit welfare and social services. it's not a stereotype; it's true.

reply from: Cecilia

Of course women go to 'pro-choice' clinics expecting to be told the truth and to not be pressured to abort. Isn't that what you choicers assure women will happen in 'pro-choice' clinics? Where are the warnings from 'pro-choicers' that women should NOT go to clinics UNLESS they have already gotten all their questions answered and have made up their mind TO abort? When pro-lifers and post-aborted women try to warn women that the ONLY info and 'help' the clinics will offer is to get an abortion, don't you choicers call us liars?
So why are clinics called 'pro-choice' if THE ONLY choice they offer is abortion?
Why not call them pro-abortion instead of pretending they will give the women info and help about other choices?
If you go to a steakhouse which is falsely advertised as a buffet-style restaurant, supposedly offering choiceS besides steak, and then after you get inside they ONLY offer steak and use hard-sell tactics to try to get you to buy the steak, and they have on staff a pretenda-nurse who tells you you need the steak for health reason, and vegetarians are taken there by people who wan tot pressure them into eating steak, and the staff sees this coercion and sides with the coercers instead ofthe vegetarians, then you try to warn others that they really aren't a place that offers choiceS, not a pro-choice buffet, they ONLY sell steak, and then they made fun of those who tried to warn others about the deception...
Would it REALLY be 'anti-steak' to object to the steakhouse pretending to be a buffet?
Would it REALLY be pro-choice, would it REALLY be a buffet?
Or just a pro-steak, non-buffet (anti-choice) business?
Wouldn't there be people who would reasonably object to the deception, even if they weren't 'anti-steak' (vegetarians)?
And wouldn't it also be reasonable for people who are vegetarians to expect to have other choices available beside steak at a place that advertises itself as offering a buffet of choices?
Choicers do NOT warn women that the clinics are really just pro-abortion do you? You tell women that they are 'pro-choice'. That's a lie.
And then you make fun of the women who trusted you and believed your lie.
What would be so wrong with just telling the truth - just telling women that the clinics are not pro-choice, they're just pro-abortion? How can it be 'pro-woman' to assure women that the clinics are 'pro-choice', to pretend that they will be told the truth there and given info about other options, but then to make fun of them afterwards for trusting you?
you know what, i was thinking and i cannot think of a specifically named "Prochoice Clinic" they are abortion clinics, and you go to an abortion clinic to have an abortion. if you want to learn about being a vegan you do not go to a steakhouse, if you walk in and don't like the menu, you can leave.
Are women unable to walk into a clinic and leave because of some mysterical force that makes them have an abortion?
do you feel like women are not intelligent enough to understand that walking into abortion clinic the assumption is that they have decided to have an abortion??
what kind of "prochoice" clinic do you want? seriously could you spell out exactly what kind of clinic youw ant available for women to go to like your situation?

reply from: futureshock

Pro-informed, how did you get pregnant in the first place?

reply from: futureshock

Pro-informed, if a doctor at an abortion clinic actually lied when they said your fetus would die anyway or you might die, you can sue for malpractice.

reply from: churchmouse

No they are not.
They are made up by our lawmakers (men and women in Congress) who are for the most part corrupt. Our national government makes our laws Yuuki. The are presented to Congress and the men and woman who hold seats vote how THEY WANT TO VOTE. They do NOT TAKE into consideration what the people who elected them want.
The masses have no say whatsoever and when they do, the results can be overturned by liberal activist judges.
http://forthardknox.com/2008/05/15/activist-supreme-court-judges-in-california-override-the-voters-and-the-governor-legalize-gay-marriage/

reply from: CharlesD

Yep, Congress is supposed to be the legislative body of our government, but people have allowed courts to effectively make laws instead of merely interpret existing laws. I don't think I'm the only one who sees something wrong with that.

reply from: churchmouse

Who are the masses? When did you vote for a law lately? What was it?

reply from: Cecilia

So killing a living human being.....watching it be dismembered wouldn't bother you? Wow.
Medical training or not......I am not talking about just blood here. I am talking about watching a human being dismembered alive. You think this is like any other medical procedure? What other medical procedure is like an abortion?
If this isn't hating life I don't know what is, sorry.
being able to assist in a medical procedure does not mean someone "hates life". that is a ridiculous stretch. it seems like prolife people would like to stick "you hate life!!" into discussion as much as possible without rhyme or reason.
i view it 'pragmatically'. its what the mother wants and it is my position to respect her. if i am in the position to provide abortion, or assist on abortion, then that is my chosen job and so no, it if 'bothered' me i would find new job.
so actually no there aren't full term abortion done. you switched up.
Like it or not our country started with laws from God. Clergy and church had a big part in our founding. I dont care what anyone says, we might not be Christian today but the historical facts show that we grew from Christian principles and those prinicples affected our laws.
Dewitt Clinton, the Framer who introduced the 12th Amendment said, "The laws which regulate our conduct are the laws of man and the laws of God. . . . The sanctions of the Divine law . . . cover the whole area of human action."

Another Framer John Witherspoon, said, "To promote true religion is the best and most effectual way of making a virtuous and regular people. Love to God and love to man is the substance of religion; when these prevail, civil laws will have little to do."
He also said that
who cares? how many hundreds of years ago? why does that have to hold with today?

reply from: Cecilia

Who are the masses? When did you vote for a law lately? What was it?
yukki federal laws are not directed decided by masses, no. to explain what i said earlier; people want to use religion to influence their leaders to vote certain ways, or leaders state their beliefs for voting a certain way, which includes their religion. example; gay marriage. the only reaon to oppose it is religious based.
i think we sould put abortion to a federal vote across country, really. i think that would be best.

reply from: Yuuki

The Senate and the House represent the masses, Cecelia. That's why we elect them!

reply from: churchmouse

Cecilia........
Do you agree that abortion is more than just a medical procedure.....?
It's a medical prodedure that disects a living human being alive until it is dead. To stand there and watch this......you think is nothing? It wouldnt bother you to see the tiny unborns body parts and tissue? Most abortions are done after the heart starts to beat and when there are measurable brain waves....and this still wouldn't bother you?
I find this barbaric and cold. Its a inhumane act whether you are the one laying on the table or you are helping a doctor perform one. I just cant understand how a human being could think nothing of this procedure, especially with the knowledge we have today on fetal development.
You make it seem like the woman is having her teeth cleaned.
Do you say a prayer for the child being killed? Or is the victim of this violent act not in your thoughts at all?
I can only imagine the other things you condone in life.
There are third term abortions done.
But then you said there is nothing wrong with abortion.....that you would honor the womans wishes, so a third term would be acceptable to you, right?
Why would I think you would care.
Honey, its the supreme law of our country and the foundation of all our laws. Didn't you ever take a history or government class? That document help make us a great nation.
And you think you could come up with a better set of laws.
Oppose what, abortion?
Science is on the side of every pro-lifer, even the ones that don't believe in God. Life starts at fertilization. Nonreligious people recognize this.
I live my life based on the Word of God. I have every right to present and try to persuade others to understand where I am coming from, so that it might influence them. Do you think an athiest has the right to try to persuade lawmakers? If he has a right, why dont I? We both live by a worldview.
Yuuki, I know what you mean, I really do. But many times these lawmakers do NOT REPRESENT the people that voted them in office. They vote how THEY WANT TO VOTE.
They are supposed to represent us.........but the majority do not.



i think we sould put abortion to a federal vote across country, really. i think that would be best.

reply from: Cecilia

it is indirect as I said. they don't have to vote the way their constituents want anyways.
we don't vote for federal laws.

reply from: Cecilia

Do you agree that abortion is more than just a medical procedure.....?
no. it is a surgical procedure. it is you and people like you that attach more meaning to abortion than what it is actually.
i have already answered this question.
no, i dont. I don't attach any more meaning to it than what it exactly is. it is cold, you are right. pragmatic and aloof. However it is not for me to decide if what she does is right or wrong. she has to live with her decision, not me, so I have no dog in the fight.
why would I pray, i have no belief in diety. if i was the type to pray, then I would be the type to believe in a religion. and if I professed belief in a religion, then I would certainly need another job. I don't sit well with catholics who are prochoice. it doesn't make sense - it's either one or the other.
you know, just because you are prolife i don't assume you 'condone' certain things. but i wouldn't expect that from you; you have made up mind about me regardless of reality.
You said "full term". Now you say "third term". so which is it?
if her choice is to abort in third term she must have a damnh good reason. it is not for me to decide elsewise.
so why do we have to continue to hold christian beliefs to the population,even towards those who are not christian? you didn't answer, just patronized me.
just because it is "supreme law of land" does not make it right; peope attach meaning to it. and when the meaning is no longer relevant, document and beliefs are archaic and need revision. "haven't you ever taken a history class?" do you know what the amendments are?
Oppose what, abortion?
Science is on the side of every pro-lifer, even the ones that don't believe in God. Life starts at fertilization. Nonreligious people recognize this.
I live my life based on the Word of God. I have every right to present and try to persuade others to understand where I am coming from, so that it might influence them. Do you think an athiest has the right to try to persuade lawmakers? If he has a right, why dont I? We both live by a worldview.
you are welcome to practice your beliefs in your privacy; i have no problem with that other than my own private opinion which has no bearing on your practice. if you want me to practice your beliefs in my privacy, which i consider a fantasy, now we have a problem.
A goverment based in secular tradition is best for all constituents. it is so strange to me that in these times of "evidence based" practice for everything, that a belief system with zero evidence is considered the very foundation of the tenents of our society.

reply from: Cecilia

what do people think about voting at the federal level for elective abortion?

reply from: Yuuki

Who are the masses? When did you vote for a law lately? What was it?
I voted for several laws and amendments for Florida law back in November. Some made it illegal for illegal immigrants to own property. Another one taxed commercial marinas for land they weren't using. I also voted against a ban on gay marriage. Oh, and I voted for President Obama, state legislators, etc. Oh, there was also a bill to help out college students.
...
Did YOU vote? Do YOU remember the details of what was on your ballot? I do.

reply from: Yuuki

it is indirect as I said. they don't have to vote the way their constituents want anyways.
we don't vote for federal laws.
It's indirect for many reasons, but I'm not going to get into that because it's complicated. Basically, it takes far too long to take full votes; you know the fervor associated with the Presidential election! We elect Senators and Representatives to vote for us "in proxy".

reply from: Yuuki

If it were at all feasible or practical I think the ballot would have to be worded extremely carefully or it might be made legal in one fell swoop for good.

reply from: Cecilia

it is indirect as I said. they don't have to vote the way their constituents want anyways.
we don't vote for federal laws.
It's indirect for many reasons, but I'm not going to get into that because it's complicated. Basically, it takes far too long to take full votes; you know the fervor associated with the Presidential election! We elect Senators and Representatives to vote for us "in proxy".
this is a funny answer. I didn't ask why.
we do not vote for laws on the federal level.

reply from: Cecilia

If it were at all feasible or practical I think the ballot would have to be worded extremely carefully or it might be made legal in one fell swoop for good.
so you would be okay with it, if it were worded correctly? A federal level vote about elective abortion?

reply from: Yuuki

it is indirect as I said. they don't have to vote the way their constituents want anyways.
we don't vote for federal laws.
It's indirect for many reasons, but I'm not going to get into that because it's complicated. Basically, it takes far too long to take full votes; you know the fervor associated with the Presidential election! We elect Senators and Representatives to vote for us "in proxy".
this is a funny answer. I didn't ask why.
we do not vote for laws on the federal level.
I explained why because in my opinion, and in the opinion of the people who set up our nation, having a representative vote for you via proxy IS like you voting for federal laws. The explanation was meant to support that.
"we do not vote for laws on the federal level"
Actually in a way we do, by voting for our representatives and congressmen.

reply from: Yuuki

If it were at all feasible or practical I think the ballot would have to be worded extremely carefully or it might be made legal in one fell swoop for good.
so you would be okay with it, if it were worded correctly? A federal level vote about elective abortion?
I believe we vote through our elected representatives and congressmen, but of course I would be okay with letting every single person of legal age and citizenship cast their opinion on it. Why wouldn't I be?
You do realise we don't even directly vote for President, either. It goes through the Electoral College. Same deal as the congress and the senate.

reply from: ProInformed

Back to the topic -
Why isn't there a pro-choice movement that is willing to DO something about the problem of abortion clinics misleading women, lying to women, and siding with those who pressure women, in order to get them to agree to abort?
Why isn't the so-called 'pro-choice' movement concerned enough to DO something about all the anti-choice/pro-abortion tactics that women are subjected to?
Again, there are obviously a pro-abort movement and a pro-life movement, but no real pro-choice movement. Polls consistently show that only a small minority of the citizens really endorse the current legal status of abortion, agree with what the so-called 'pro-choice' (pro-abortion) groups stand for, so why aren't all those 'moderates' and 'pro-choicers' doing anything about it (besides whining at pro-lifers to not call them pro-abort)?
IF you folks that call yourselves pro-choice moderates are so content to let the abortion industry lobby groups pretend that they are the pro-choice movement, then you have nobody but yourselves to blame when your claim to be pro-choice instead of pro-abortion is not considered credible.
Anyway if you can't even articulate what the difference between a pro-abort and a pro-choicer is yourselves, when you state that THE goal of pro-choice is JUST to keep abortion legal (um the only goal of pro-aborts too), then how can you justify whining when pro-lifers can't see any real difference between you and the pro-aborts?
If you don't mind pro-aborts parading as pro-choice, calling the pro-abort movement 'pro-choice', then really what's the big deal if pro-lifers say you're in the same camp - um you ARE, aren't you? And you don't mind the pro-aborts saying you are all in the same camp, do you?

reply from: ProInformed

Not true.
I SHOULD have been able to, but the abortion industry lobby groups have persistently and successfully fought legislative attempts to give pregnant women who go to clinics REAL Informed Consent patient protection. BTW, so-called 'pro-choice' groups not only fail to sponsor and support legislative efforts to give women the right to win in a lawsuit against abortion clinics based on Informed Consent (not the same as malpractice), the so-called 'pro-choice' groups openly oppose such efforts and consistently side with the abortion industry instead of the women who are lied to at clinics.
Also, sometimes by the time the woman finds out the truth the statutes of limitations protects the lying clincs.
Clinics lying to women is commonplace;
the pro-aborts know it and fight to keep it that way,
the 'pro-choicers' won't do anything about it,
the pro-lifers are the only ones trying to stop it.
But if there really were a pro-choice movement, wouldn't THEY be sponsoring (or at least supporting) the legislation to stop it?

reply from: ProInformed

George Tiller of Wichita, KS.
Cecelia you've posted here long enough to know that abortion is legal for the entire nine months of pregnancy, that there indeed are third trimester abortionists, even up to full term (and even babies being killed after they are outside the mother's body). Your pretense of ignorance is actually an endorsement of third trimester abortions, does NOT make you appear 'pro-choice' instead of pro-abortion. One of the many ways that pretenda-moderates enable everything the extreme pro-aborts are up to is to look the other way and pretend they don't know about it.
Can you name a single 'pro-choice' group in the 'pro-choice' movement that is opposed to third trimester abortions on-demand? (And don't bother with the pretense that all third trimester abortions are supposedly because of the mother's physical health - that she would supposedly die if she doesn't abort - we know all about the Doe v Bolton loophole.)
Again, the truth is there is NO movement that represents the POV of the majority of the citizens. Very few citizens support third trimester abortions being legal, let alone for excuses like the mother's 'financial health', 'relationship health', 'career plans health', etc. So why aren't there ANY 'pro-choice/moderate' groups that support legalized abortions only earlier in pregnancy but oppose third trimester ELECTIVE abortions, hmmm? So there really isn't any difference between pro-abort extremists and 'pro-choice moderates', not anything besides lip-service, no organizing, no advocacy, no DOING anything to MAKE A DIFFERENCE, is there?
So again, why all the whining from 'pro-choice moderates' when the obvious fact that they don't even have a pro-choice movement, and they they are OK with that, is noticed?

reply from: ProInformed

Of course women go to 'pro-choice' clinics expecting to be told the truth and to not be pressured to abort. Isn't that what you choicers assure women will happen in 'pro-choice' clinics? Where are the warnings from 'pro-choicers' that women should NOT go to clinics UNLESS they have already gotten all their questions answered and have made up their mind TO abort? When pro-lifers and post-aborted women try to warn women that the ONLY info and 'help' the clinics will offer is to get an abortion, don't you choicers call us liars?
So why are clinics called 'pro-choice' if THE ONLY choice they offer is abortion?
Why not call them pro-abortion instead of pretending they will give the women info and help about other choices?
If you go to a steakhouse which is falsely advertised as a buffet-style restaurant, supposedly offering choiceS besides steak, and then after you get inside they ONLY offer steak and use hard-sell tactics to try to get you to buy the steak, and they have on staff a pretenda-nurse who tells you you need the steak for health reason, and vegetarians are taken there by people who wan tot pressure them into eating steak, and the staff sees this coercion and sides with the coercers instead ofthe vegetarians, then you try to warn others that they really aren't a place that offers choiceS, not a pro-choice buffet, they ONLY sell steak, and then they made fun of those who tried to warn others about the deception...
Would it REALLY be 'anti-steak' to object to the steakhouse pretending to be a buffet?
Would it REALLY be pro-choice, would it REALLY be a buffet?
Or just a pro-steak, non-buffet (anti-choice) business?
Wouldn't there be people who would reasonably object to the deception, even if they weren't 'anti-steak' (vegetarians)?
And wouldn't it also be reasonable for people who are vegetarians to expect to have other choices available beside steak at a place that advertises itself as offering a buffet of choices?
Choicers do NOT warn women that the clinics are really just pro-abortion do you? You tell women that they are 'pro-choice'. That's a lie.
And then you make fun of the women who trusted you and believed your lie.
What would be so wrong with just telling the truth - just telling women that the clinics are not pro-choice, they're just pro-abortion? How can it be 'pro-woman' to assure women that the clinics are 'pro-choice', to pretend that they will be told the truth there and given info about other options, but then to make fun of them afterwards for trusting you?
you know what, i was thinking and i cannot think of a specifically named "Prochoice Clinic" they are abortion clinics, and you go to an abortion clinic to have an abortion. if you want to learn about being a vegan you do not go to a steakhouse, if you walk in and don't like the menu, you can leave.
Are women unable to walk into a clinic and leave because of some mysterical force that makes them have an abortion?
do you feel like women are not intelligent enough to understand that walking into abortion clinic the assumption is that they have decided to have an abortion??
what kind of "prochoice" clinic do you want? seriously could you spell out exactly what kind of clinic youw ant available for women to go to like your situation?
Ah but the clinics themselves are the ones that assure women they are 'pro-choice'. Don't pretend (lie) that the clinics and the 'pro-choice' groups that defend and lobby for them inform women that ALL the clinics are interested in is selling the ONE 'choice' of abortion. The abortion industry spends a LOT of money on advertising, on presenting itself as 'pro-choice/pro-woman but I've never seen a single ad from them informing women that if they go to a clinic, everything that will be said and done inside the clinic will be based on the agenda of getting the woman to go through with an abortion.
Hey if you 'pro-choicers' want to distinguish yourself from the pro-aborts, then you tell us what the difference would be between a pro-abort clinic and a pro-choice clinic! You seriously don't even get it that assuming a woman wants an abortion, instead of maybe just a pregnancy test and info about some of the OTHER CHOICES, and EXCUSING women being lied to and pressured to buy an abortion, is NOT 'pro-choice'?
So you are admitting that the clinics are NOT 'pro-choice' clinics, that they ARE pro-abort?
So why not:
help warn women about that BEFORE they go to the clinics?
challenge the abortion industry and their lobby groups to stop assuring women the clinics are 'pro-choice' insead of pro-abortion?
challenge the clinics to change, to give women all the facts and the options so the women can make a choice minus lies, sales tactics, and pro-abort pressures?
There are pro-abortion clinics that pretend they are 'pro-choice,
there are pro-abort groups that pretend they are 'pro-choice',
there is a pro-abort movement that pretends it is 'pro-choice',
and there are so-called 'pro-choice' individuals who are OK with those three things but whine when pro-lifers point out that therefore it's all just pro-abort and not really pro-choice at all.
SHEESH - the pro-life clinics are more pro-choice, offer more info and more choices, than the pro-abortion clinics do! There is only one choice that the pro-life clinics don't offer, and only one choice that the pro-abort clinics do offer - abortion.
So there are pretenda-pro-choice clinics that you admit are really just pro-abortion, and pro-life clinics that are pro-choice except the one chocie of abortion.

reply from: ProInformed

OK, what would be the difference between:
a pro-abort movement vs a pro-choice movement?
a pro-abort group vs a pro-choice group?
a pro-abort clinic vs a pro-choice clinic?
a pro-abort individual vs a pro-choice individual?
IS there any difference at all?!?

reply from: Yuuki

Pro-aborts promote abortion as the best solution in ALL cases of unexpected pregnancies. They often pressure teens and college students to abort. They pressure for abortion in cases of deformities. They pressure to abort in cases of maternal danger, young age, rape, incest, etc. And by pressure, I mean they PUSH for it and harp on the negative consequences if the woman doesn't abort.
Pro-choicers do none of that. True pro-choicers believe it is completely up to the woman involved, and would not push a teen to abort. They would support a victim of rape if the woman wanted to keep the pregnancy. They give advice for both the pros and cons of keeping the pregnancy and aborting.
What's a pro-life group like?
A pro-abort clinic would pressure the woman into aborting and would not provide any materials to convince her otherwise. The staff would never tell the woman "it's okay to keep it if you want to" but instead fill her with negative propaganda. They would not offer to show her the ultrasound if they even bother to take one, and would in fact refuse to do so since it might change her mind. If the woman seemed unsure, they would go through with the procedure anyway. They would not allow anyone to come with her unless that person was also pushing her to abort. Adoption would not be mentioned at all. The clinic would rush her through to the procedure as fast as possible so she wouldn't have time to change her mind. They would not offer adoption services, information about adoption, or prenatal care. And there are clinics like this.
A true pro-choice clinic would discuss with the woman and anyone she wanted to bring, both the pros and cons of abortion and keeping the pregnancy, as well as the pros and cons of adoption. There would be a longer waiting time to give the woman time to consider her options on her own and come to her own decision with no pressure. If she requested it, the clinic would give her resources for adoption or perhaps even have adoption services in the clinic to get her started. They would offer prenatal care. If the woman decided to abort, she would be show the ultrasound, or it would at least be offered to her to see. And there are clinics like this, too.
Individuals are like snowflakes. Everyone is different. Being pro-choice, pro-abortion or pro-life does not make you the person you are. You are not going to be meaner, or more cynical, or harsher no matter what you believe.
A hell of a lot, to put it bluntly.

reply from: Skippy

If I became pregnant, I most certainly WOULD want an abortion, as quickly as possible.

reply from: ProInformed

Pro-aborts promote abortion as the best solution in ALL cases of unexpected pregnancies. They often pressure teens and college students to abort. They pressure for abortion in cases of deformities. They pressure to abort in cases of maternal danger, young age, rape, incest, etc. And by pressure, I mean they PUSH for it and harp on the negative consequences if the woman doesn't abort.
Pro-choicers do none of that. True pro-choicers believe it is completely up to the woman involved, and would not push a teen to abort. They would support a victim of rape if the woman wanted to keep the pregnancy. They give advice for both the pros and cons of keeping the pregnancy and aborting.
The question was what is the difference between a pro-abort MOVEMENT vs a pro-choice MOVEMENT. You described the pro-abort movement - the same movement that falsely calls itself pro-choice (with the permission of you co-called pro-choicers)... but then you switched to describing some of what a pro-choice INDIVIDUAL might do. There is no pro-choice movement that does anything about pro-abort pressures put on women, that advocates for women being given info and advice other than pro-abortion sales tactics inside the clinics, that sides with or helps the women who don't want to abort.
Again the question was:
What would be the difference between a pro-abortion movement vs a pro-choice movement? What sort of advocacy would each type of movement be involved with? What sort of treatment of women would each type of movement endorse or condemn? What sort of legislation would each type of movement sponsor and support? What sort of standards for clinics would each type of movment want to put into place?
What would/could/should be the difference between the pro-abort movement which poses as 'pro-choice' and what a REAL pro-choice MOVEMENT should do?

reply from: ProInformed

What's a pro-life group like?
Are you asking because you can't even tell the difference between a pro-life group and a 'pro-choice' group? LOL
Whatever, back to the question:
What is the difference between a pro-abort group and a pro-choice group?
I guess you couldn't think of any difference, eh?

reply from: ProInformed

A pro-abort clinic would pressure the woman into aborting and would not provide any materials to convince her otherwise. The staff would never tell the woman "it's okay to keep it if you want to" but instead fill her with negative propaganda. They would not offer to show her the ultrasound if they even bother to take one, and would in fact refuse to do so since it might change her mind. If the woman seemed unsure, they would go through with the procedure anyway. They would not allow anyone to come with her unless that person was also pushing her to abort. Adoption would not be mentioned at all. The clinic would rush her through to the procedure as fast as possible so she wouldn't have time to change her mind. They would not offer adoption services, information about adoption, or prenatal care. And there are clinics like this.
A true pro-choice clinic would discuss with the woman and anyone she wanted to bring, both the pros and cons of abortion and keeping the pregnancy, as well as the pros and cons of adoption. There would be a longer waiting time to give the woman time to consider her options on her own and come to her own decision with no pressure. If she requested it, the clinic would give her resources for adoption or perhaps even have adoption services in the clinic to get her started. They would offer prenatal care. If the woman decided to abort, she would be show the ultrasound, or it would at least be offered to her to see. And there are clinics like this, too.
Well, at least you admit there are indeed pro-abort clinics!
Why is it so OK with so-called 'pro-choicers' that MOST clinics are pro-abort?
Why don't 'pro-choicers' do anything about clinics operating in such an anti-woman AND anti-choice/pro-abortion way? Why aren't pro-choicers working to change the laws so the clinics can't get away with peing pro-abort? Why are such clinics allowed to be in the National Abortion Federation, given the NAF stamp of approval that claims to assure women that member clinics are not the 'bad apple seedy' clinics?
As to the pro-choice clinics that you say exist, give some specific examples for us.
Some clinics NOW HAVE TO give more truthful info, options counseling, and show sonograms... um BECAUSE pro-lifers have sponsored legislative efforts to require them to. Name some 'pro-choice' clinics that voluntarily did such things, and that are not members of pro-abort organizations that fight to try to repeal such requirements. Why is it SO OK with so-called 'pro-choicers' that most clinics are NOT like this (and only if pro-lifers pass laws requiring them to be)?

reply from: Yuuki

I knew there were bad clinics even when I was pro-choice. That hasn't changed. I knew there were pro-abortion people when I was pro-choice; that hasn't changed.
It is NOT "okay" with pro-choicers that you think "most clinics" are pro-abortion. Until there's some unbiased research done on that, I don't think anyone has the authority to comment on the pro-choice/abortion status of any clinics. I don't have to name names. That's just being asinine. Secondly, someone's opinion on whether a clinic is pro-choice or pro-abortion is completely subjective, and thus cannot be accurately gauged.

reply from: Cecilia

George Tiller of Wichita, KS.
Cecelia you've posted here long enough to know that abortion is legal for the entire nine months of pregnancy, that there indeed are third trimester abortionists, even up to full term (and even babies being killed after they are outside the mother's body). Your pretense of ignorance is actually an endorsement of third trimester abortions, does NOT make you appear 'pro-choice' instead of pro-abortion. One of the many ways that pretenda-moderates enable everything the extreme pro-aborts are up to is to look the other way and pretend they don't know about it.
Can you name a single 'pro-choice' group in the 'pro-choice' movement that is opposed to third trimester abortions on-demand? (And don't bother with the pretense that all third trimester abortions are supposedly because of the mother's physical health - that she would supposedly die if she doesn't abort - we know all about the Doe v Bolton loophole.)
Again, the truth is there is NO movement that represents the POV of the majority of the citizens. Very few citizens support third trimester abortions being legal, let alone for excuses like the mother's 'financial health', 'relationship health', 'career plans health', etc. So why aren't there ANY 'pro-choice/moderate' groups that support legalized abortions only earlier in pregnancy but oppose third trimester ELECTIVE abortions, hmmm? So there really isn't any difference between pro-abort extremists and 'pro-choice moderates', not anything besides lip-service, no organizing, no advocacy, no DOING anything to MAKE A DIFFERENCE, is there?
So again, why all the whining from 'pro-choice moderates' when the obvious fact that they don't even have a pro-choice movement, and they they are OK with that, is noticed?
i bolded reason why there is no big hoo haa about opposing third trimester abortions. there is no need for it.

reply from: Cecilia

Agenda? you walk into abortion clinic, there is no "agenda of getting the woman to go through abortion". the woman in abortion clinic has already made up her mind; she is there to have an abortion.
if she has quesitons and ambivalent about pregnancy maybe she should not go to an abortion clinic.
what? yes, i would reasonably assume a woman walking into an ABORTION CLINIC wants an ABORTION.
So why not:
were there pregnancy crisis centers before legal abortion?

reply from: Cecilia

heather i think i understand your point as i muddled through your angry posts and accusatory posts. you want abortion clinics to provide more medical appropriate information? you want more neutral territory, maybe place with no financial beneift from either aboriton or continuing pregnancy service.
is that right?

reply from: Yuuki

I think that would be good. Right now it seems like everything is polarized (aka black and white) so that these poor women can't find a place to even sit down while they think things over.

reply from: ProInformed

My name is not Heather - either IRL or as a posting name.
If you are going to follow spinfibby's lead then you aren't going to be taken very seriously in this forum. (BTW it has been noted that you don't seem to mind the fact that practically ALL spinfibby's posts are hostile and full of false accusations.)
*I* do not want more abortion clinics of any type.
I am pro-life.
But it simply doesn't make sense for those who whine about being grouped in with the pro-aborts to never have bothered (in 35 years) to DO something about the clinics being pro-abort instead of pro-choice.
I mean for all the whining and complaining the 'pro-choice' posters do in this forum, about pro-lifers not acknowledging they are different than the pro-aborts,
there is even more whining when pro-lifers simply point out the OBVIOUS FACT that 'pro-choicers' don't DO anything TO distinguish themselves from the pro-aborts.
Making the clinics change so they are at least pro-abort instead of pro-abortion is not the responsibility of pro-lifers; we want to close the abortion clinics.
And obviously the pro-aborts aren't going to voluntarily clean up their act, stop lying to women, stop pressuring women to buy abortions, are they?
THE REASON the clinics are pro-abort and not pro-choice is because you pro-choicers won't do anything to change the pro-abort status quo.
Again, this thread was started because you 'pro-choicers' keep complaining that we pro-lifers don't make a distinction between yourselves and the pro-aborts.
Not true - it isn't our job to MAKE that distinction - we're just pointing out the obvious LACK OF distinction.
And we also notice that when we ask you what that difference would look like, most of you can't even comprehend or describe any difference between pro-abort and pro-choice yourself, let alone DO anything that would indicate that your advocacy in any way challenges the pro-aborts who have taken over your pro-choice movement.
SO MUCH hostility aimed at the pro-lifers...
But NONE towards the pro-aborts you claim to be so different from,
the pro-aborts who lie to women and side with the pedophiles who bring their underage victims to the clinics that help them hide their crimes,
the pro-aborts who claim that THEY are the 'pro-choice movement' - NOT YOU?!?
Weirdness LOL
Um Cecilia - back to the topic of this thread...
WHY is it
that the same posters who complain
if pro-lifers say pro-aborts and pro-choicers are the same,
are evidently OK with
the pro-aborts saying pro-abort and pro-choice are the same thing?
Pro-lifers aren't the ones who stole your label for our movement.
Either pro-choicers are different from pro-aborts,
and therefore will challenge the pro-aborts,
or pro-choice and pro-abort are the same thing.

reply from: yoda

That's only because there is no distinction between those two terms. And they only complain because they are ashamed to be associated with the word "abortion".

reply from: ProInformed

That's only because there is no distinction between those two terms. And they only complain because they are ashamed to be associated with the word "abortion".
APPARENTLY you are right Yodavater - they whine that they want us to acknowledge some sort of difference between themselves and the pro-aborts...
BUT they won't DO anything to make a distinction betweeen themselves and the pro-aborts (verbal claims that they won't back up by DOING a darn thing do NOT count).
I really don't see why they complain so much about pro-lifers not acknowledging their claim to the pro-choice title when they have NO complaints about the pro-aborts claiming the 'pro-choice' title for their pro-abort movement LOL!
Hey if they're so obviously content to allow the pro-aborts to claim there is no difference between pro-abort and pro-choice then why such hissy fits when pro-lifers agree with that assessment?

reply from: yoda

Or, when the dictionaries all say there is no difference, perhaps?
It's really sort of funny when you think about it, can you imagine a "pro-gun" person saying they don't want to be called pro-gun anymore, and asks to be called "pro-choice"?
Never gonna happen, because pro-gun people are not ashamed of the guns they own, or their support for the right to own them. Proaborts are ashamed of what they support.

reply from: ProInformed

Or, when the dictionaries all say there is no difference, perhaps?
It's really sort of funny when you think about it, can you imagine a "pro-gun" person saying they don't want to be called pro-gun anymore, and asks to be called "pro-choice"?
Never gonna happen, because pro-gun people are not ashamed of the guns they own, or their support for the right to own them. Proaborts are ashamed of what they support.
Yup - but isn't it rather strange (and telling) that they are not SO ashamed that they will actually protest the pro-aborts claiming that pro-abort and pro-choice are the exact same thing? They ALLOW the pro-abort movement to parade itself as the 'pro-choice' movement, so they can't really be too upset about pro-abort and pro-choice being called the same thing, eh?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, actually that's a symptom of their shame... they want as little public discussion of this issue as possible. And they even demand our cooperation in that regard....... I'm just not cooperating.

reply from: Cecilia

My name is not Heather - either IRL or as a posting name.
If you are going to follow spinfibby's lead then you aren't going to be taken very seriously in this forum. (BTW it has been noted that you don't seem to mind the fact that practically ALL spinfibby's posts are hostile and full of false accusations.)
*I* do not want more abortion clinics of any type.
I am pro-life.
But it simply doesn't make sense for those who whine about being grouped in with the pro-aborts to never have bothered (in 35 years) to DO something about the clinics being pro-abort instead or pro-choice.
I mean for all the whining and complaining the 'pro-choice' posters do in this forum, about pro-lifers not acknowledging they are different than the pro-aborts,
there is even more whining when prolifers simply point out the OBVIOUS FACT that 'pro-choicers' don't DO anything TO distinguish themselves from the pro-aborts.
Making the clinics change so they are at least pro-abort instead of pro-abortion is not the responsibility of pro-lifers; we want to close the abortion clinics.
And obviously the pro-aborts aren't going to voluntarily clean up their act, stop lying to women, stop pressuring women to buy abortions, are they?
THE REASON the clinics are pro-abort and not pro-choice is because you pro-choicers won't do anything to change the pro-abort status quo.
Again, this thread was started because you 'pro-choicers' keep complaining that we pro-lifers don't make a distinction between yourselves and the pro-aborts.
Not true - it isn't our job to MAKE that distinction - we're just pointing out the obvious LACK OF distinction.
And we also notice that when we ask you what that difference would look like, most of you can't even comprehend or describe any difference between pro-abort and pro-choice yourself, let alone DO anything that would indicate that your advocacy in any way challenges the pro-aborts who have taken over your pro-choice movement.
SO MUCH hostility aimed at the pro-lifers...
BUt NONE towards the pro-aborts you claim to be so different from,
the pro-aborts who lie to women and side with the pedophiles who birng their underage victims to the clinics that help them hide their crimes,
the pro-aborts who claim that THEY are the 'pro-choice movement' - NOT YOU?!?
Weirdness LOL
i am sorry - I thought heather was your name, I did not mean anything by it.
you did not see my other posts? i think they are relevant to answering some of questions you have presented here.
i do not care if you call me proabort or what. What does that mean to me?
i don't even know what "proabort" movement is, and I have never heard an abortion clinic described as "ProAbort Clinic" in my life. again I say; you go to abortion clinic to get an abortion!
Something you glossed over: Can you name a single 'pro-choice' group in the 'pro-choice' movement that is opposed to third trimester abortions on-demand?
and Very few citizens support third trimester abortions being legal
My response: why there is no big hoo haa about opposing third trimester abortions. there is no need for it.

reply from: ProInformed

The pro-abort movement is the abortion industry lobby groups that call themselves the pro-choice movement.
And of course you've never heard of an abortion clinic that admits they are pro-abortion, they all pretend they are pro-choice.
And EXCUSING the clinics when they lie to women in order to convince them to abort, by saying "you go to abortion clinic to get abortion", is not pro-choice or pro-woman, it's pro-abortion! Saying that to a woman AFTER she went to a 'pro-choice' clinic for a pregnancy test and info, and was convinced (by LIES) to abort, is NOT the same as warning women BEFORE they go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic that the clinic is really pro-abortion and will do everything it can to try to get her to abort.
It's OK with you that the so-called 'pro-choice' movment encourages women to trust the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics?
You don't feel that criticizing such clinics for their DECEPTION is something a pro-choicer needs to do?
You don't feel that challenging (and legislating) to make the clinics stop being pro-abortion while posing as 'pro-choice' is something a pro-choicer would do?
You don't feel that at the very least warning women BEFORE they go to the clinics that they should NOT trust THEIR CLAIM of being 'pro-choice',
that ALL they can expect there is an assumption that they have already decided to abort, AND pro-abort pressures, sales tactics, and lies,
that they should not go to a 'pro-choice' clinic if all they want is a pregnancy test, info, or any other options besides abortion,
is something that a pro-choicer SHOULD do?
Yet you do feel compelled to say to the women AFTERWARDS (in defense of the lying clinics): "you go to abortion clinic to get an abortion!" KNOWING that the clinics pose as 'pro-choice' and assure women that they can make an appointment for a pregnancy test and that the info they will be given will supposedly be truthful and 'pro-choice'?!?

reply from: Yuuki

The dictionary is not the final say on living words. I don't consider pro-life or pro-choice to be real "words" in the sense of something like "yarn" or "disgruntled". They're recent made up words, and so personally their definitions aren't really fixed at all. Let's come back in 200 years and see what those words mean. Democrat and Republican have morphed, too.

reply from: yoda

That's really weird. First, there is no such thing as a "living word", as opposed to a "dead word". Second, there is NO OTHER authority on the meaning of words. Dictionaries are compiled for that purpose, and they are the ONLY academic endeavor devoted to that purpose. WAKE UP!!
That may be the stupidest thing you've ever said here, and I will bet my life savings that you won't try to document it. Wanna bet?
ALL WORDS ARE "real words", dimwit!! There is no such thing as a "fake word"..... and ALL WORDS ARE "made up"!! Did you think that God sent them down from heaven?????
The AGE of a word has NOTHING to do with it's VALIDITY!!
And NO ONE SAID that definitions are "fixed"!!! NO ONE!! But they don't change because YOU want them to!!
And the GENUINE CHANGES that occur are documented by ACTUAL, GENUINE, REPUTABLE ONLINE DICTIONARIES.......... NOT by hair brained posters on online forums!!
Have you no academic or intellectual shame at all???

reply from: Yuuki

Supercalifragelistic ain't a real word either, bub.

reply from: yoda

You're absolutely pitiful. That's the best response you can come up with?
Why do you keep posting here?

reply from: Yuuki

You're absolutely pitiful. That's the best response you can come up with?
Why do you keep posting here?
When it comes to your moronic worship of the dictionary, yes that's the best I can come up with. The utterly ridiculous. But did you know pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis IS a word? Technically; though it's authenticity is debated as the scientist behind it reportedly made it just so it would be the longest word in the English language. Which it technically is.
And that's why I laugh at dictionary worshippers.
A "living word", imo, is one whose true definition is not yet set.
You know what? You're wrong, period. I don't care what the dictionary says; pro-life is pro-life and pro-choice is pro-choice, PERIOD. And I refuse to associate myself with people like you whose sole reason for abusing the dictionary is to ridicule and put down others. So from henceforth, you are anti-choice.
It's a real word, see?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anti-choice
an┬Ěti-choice (?n't?-chois', ?n't?-)
adj. Opposed to the right of women to have the choice to terminate a pregnancy by induced abortion.
And its definition is NEARLY the same as pro-life, which means they must mean EXACTLY the same thing. Despite the reality surrounding the word, which is of course that pro-lifers approve of MANY choices for the woman, and are only against ONE choice out of many. But that's just semantics; in the big picture of things, calling yourself pro-life is just glossing over the real truth: you want to take away a woman's choice to be pregnant. That makes you anti-choice.
-----
I'll stick with calling myself pro-life, and pro-choicers are still pro-choice. Have fun now.

reply from: yoda

Yes, that's right.... I have a little "dictionary temple" and everything.... want to join? We're a little confused right now, since there are so many dictionaries out there, we can't decide on which one to worship.... And would you believe it, there are some people who actually think they are smarter than all of them? I know, it's hard to believe, but there actually are people like that. The only thing I can figure out is that they have ulterior motives for wanting to twist words around to mean other than what they mean....you know, like wanting to claim the unborn are "not babies", or "not people", stuff like that? Still want to join?
"imo"? You trash the utility of a dictionary, and then tell me what a word means "in your opinion"? Who gives a damn about your twisted opinion?
And right there's your problem.... you don't care about reality, you want to bend and twist reality to fit your concepts. You are that removed from reality.
I've always been anti-choice, and proud of it...... SO WHAT??????
You've really lost it now...... you need to take a break....

reply from: Yuuki

Hey, I'm just stating the truths man. I'm honestly just bored with you. You're boring, mean and boring. You say the same sh*t over and over, you insult people hiding behind "truth" and pretty much get your jollies by being abusive on here. I've never seen you be nice to ANYONE whose thoughts are different form yours for longer than it took to bait, hook and then degrade them.
I'm pro-life. Period. If there were a law to sign right this second to outlaw elective abortion I'd sign it. I may be on the fence and/or have different opinions about other things, but about abortion itself, I'm pro-life. And that's all there is to it in the dictionary. The dictionary doesn't mention that you have to be against birth control or ESCR to be pro-life, so get the hell off my back.

reply from: nancyu

No lamebrane. YOU GET OFF. And GET OUT. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. CRAWL BACK UNDER THE PRO ABORT ROCK YOU CRAWLED OUT OF.
YOU ARE A LYING SACK OF PRO ABORT FILTH TRYING TO LOOK PRO LIFE.
VAMOOSE, BEGONE, LEAVE, BLOW, SPLIT, TAKE OFF, DEPART, SHOVE OFF.
In other words:
GET LOST.

reply from: Cecilia

The pro-abort movement is the abortion industry lobby groups that call themselves the pro-chocie movement.
And of course you've never heard of an abortion clinic that admits they are pro-abortion, they all pretend they are pro-choice.
And EXCUSING the clinics when they lie to women in order to convince them to abort, by saying "you go to abortion clinic to get abortion", is not pro-choice or pro-woman, it's pro-abortion! Saying that to a woman AFTER she went to a 'pro-choice' clinic for a pregnancy test and info, and was convinced (by LIES) to abort, is NOT the same as warning women BEFORE they go to a so-called 'pro-choice' clinic that the clinic is really pro-abortion and will do everything it can to try to get her to abort.
It's OK with you that the so-called 'pro-choice' movment encourages women to trust the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics?
You don't feel that criticizing such clinics for their DECEPTION is something a pro-choicer needs to do?
You don't feel that challenging (and legislating) to make the clinics stop being pro-abortion while posing as 'pro-choice' is something a pro-choicer would do?
You don't feel that at the very least warning women BEFORE they go to the clinics that they should NOT trust THEIR CLAIM of being 'pro-choice',
that ALL they can expect there is an assumption that they have already decided to abort, AND pro-abort pressures, sales tactics, and lies,
that they should not go to a 'pro-choice' clinic if all they want is a pregnancy test, info, or any other options besides abortion,
is something that a pro-choicer SHOULD do?
Yet you do feel compelled to say to the women AFTERWARDS (in defense of the lying clinics): "you go to abortion clinic to get an abortion!" KNOWING that the clinics pose as 'pro-choice' and assure women that they can make an appointment for a pregnancy test and that the info they will be given will supposedly be truthful and 'pro-choice'?!?
Abortion clinics are not politically oriented places -they are medical facilities that provide abortions. if you do not want an ABORTION do not go to an ABORTION clinic.
You say "knowing the clinics pose as prochoice" but guess what I don't think they pose as anything other than an abortion clinic- a place to exercise your choice. YOu want a big sign out front stating "We provide abortions"?
have you been to any other clinic other than one you went to?

reply from: Yuuki

No lamebrane. YOU GET OFF. And GET OUT. YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE. CRAWL BACK UNDER THE PRO ABORT ROCK YOU CRAWLED OUT OF.
YOU ARE A LYING SACK OF PRO ABORT FILTH TRYING TO LOOK PRO LIFE.
VAMOOSE, BEGONE, LEAVE, BLOW, SPLIT, TAKE OFF, DEPART, SHOVE OFF.
In other words:
GET LOST.
Ahahaha
XD hehe.
I win. Seriously. I've reduced you to a gibbering, slathering-at-the-mouth pile of vile, profanity-shouting slime, I've won. And I wasn't even talking to you! That's the best part.

reply from: yoda

And I do appreciate that so much, it's so hard to get anyone to analyze you over the internet, ya know? Yeah, I'm the meanest man in the world, but how does that make your proabort lies any more moral?
Wow, look how long that took. No more "delays"?
Your back is the last place on earth I'd want to be.
And I don't really care what you call yourself on this forum, I still will not let your crap go unchallenged.
You need to think seriously about taking a break.

reply from: yoda

What is a "politically oriented place", by your thinking?

reply from: yoda

Same ole Yuuki..... it's always about who "wins", isn't it?
But when you "win", the babies lose.

reply from: Yuuki

And I do appreciate that so much, it's so hard to get anyone to analyze you over the internet, ya know? Yeah, I'm the meanest man in the world, but how does that make your proabort lies any more moral?
Wow, look how long that took. No more "delays"?
Your back is the last place on earth I'd want to be.
And I don't really care what you call yourself on this forum, I still will not let your crap go unchallenged.
You need to think seriously about taking a break.
Wow, you read my post that time. What crap, btw?

reply from: Yuuki

All of it.
Be more specific, please. Vagueness doesn't help anyone improve themselves.
Otherwise, I can assume you think my opinion that elective abortion should be illegal is crap, which means you think the concept that elective abortion should be illegal is crap, and we all know that's not true. So obviously, you cannot possibly think every single opinion I've posted on these forums is crap.

reply from: Shenanigans

Well, there's a "Pro-choice to kill unborn children" movement.

reply from: churchmouse

Sorry been gone a week......
Ok you want to play with words, you don't want to admit what this PROCEDURE REALLY DOES. What does this medical procedure do that all the rest of them don't do?
What is the GOAL OF EVERY ABORTIONIST?
You won't say the word kill will you? The job of the abortionist is NOT DONE UNTIL WHAT HAPPENS?
Your darn straight you don't attach meaning to the life in the womb, because it obviously means nothing to you. You are willing to look away.
There are many people who don't believe there is a God and they are pro-life. They look to what science has to say. But you look at science and still deny life. You don't sit well with anyone who loves all life and believes that killing, dismembering the unborn is wrong.
Does it matter? You are pro-choice and you look away. Would it matter to you if the unborn were 6 months, 8 months, 9 months? If you are pro-choice you would have to condone all abortions at any gestational age, even after viability. Obama is for infanticide......are you?
Why should she need a good reason? You are pro-choice and believe the woman has the right to kill you said that so yourself. Is there something wrong with abortion Cecilia?
If its none of your business and you could stand at the tableside of a woman aborting, then why should she need to have a good reason. I would think any reason would be good enough for a pro-choicer.
'
You are free to worship whatever you want Cecilia.
I will quote Patrick Henry because he says its best.
In 1776, he stated, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
He was backed up by James Madison who was the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, who said this. "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."
Need I say more.
And what secular country on this planet has been successful and has afforded the freedoms that America has upon its citizens?

reply from: scopia19822

Ok you want to play with words, you don't want to admit what this PROCEDURE REALLY DOES. What does this medical procedure do that all the rest of them don't do?
What is the GOAL OF EVERY ABORTIONIST?
You won't say the word kill will you? The job of the abortionist is NOT DONE UNTIL WHAT HAPPENS?
[?
Many prochoicers like to equate abortion to a root canal. To support such a thing one has to divest themselves of some if not all of their humanity. No other surgical procedure I know of intends to kill a human being.

reply from: ProInformed

Ok you want to play with words, you don't want to admit what this PROCEDURE REALLY DOES. What does this medical procedure do that all the rest of them don't do?
What is the GOAL OF EVERY ABORTIONIST?
You won't say the word kill will you? The job of the abortionist is NOT DONE UNTIL WHAT HAPPENS?
[?
Many prochoicers like to equate abortion to a root canal. To support such a thing one has to divest themselves of some if not all of their humanity. No other surgical procedure I know of intends to kill a human being.
And even if the abortionists kills the baby AFTER the baby is outside the mother's body, by either fatal neglect or fatal violence,
they still pretend it is somehow just the 'woman's right to control her body'.
THE goal of an abortion is to kill an innocent human baby.
Root canals are not done for the purpose of killing innocent babies.

reply from: ProInformed

Well, there's a "Pro-choice to kill unborn children" movement.
And APPARENTLY there is also a:
'pro-choice to let the pro-abort, abortion industry lobby groups, pretend they are a pro-choice movement'
movement too LOL

reply from: churchmouse

You see Concerned With every post you bash, and I say bash Christians by bringing up scripture. You do it to put us down and for no other reason.
You can't just talk about Obama.....you have to slam us if we say one thing about him and relate it to our Christian faith. Cant we challenge him on what he says and does, what he claims to be?
Let me say this another time.......because I have said this over and over and over and you still don't get it.
I CAN NOT JUDGE OBAMAS HEART, IN FACT I CAN'T JUDGE ANYONES HEART ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT. BUT I CAN JUDGE WORDS AND ACTIONS AND OBAMA HAS BEEN PLAINLY CLEAR WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT THE ISSUES. LOOK AT HIS VOTING RECORD ON ABORTION, STEM CELL, ON ALL POLICY ISSUES.
Infanticide........
http://obamaandinfanticide.com/

Obama is a strong supporter of womans rights alright because he recieved a 0% rating from National Right to Life and 100% rating from Planned Parenthood. He voted to BAN PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION.
During the April 2007 Democratic debate, Obama said that he trusts women to make their own decisions about whether or not to have an abortion "in conjunction with their doctors and their families and their clergy."
He also voted against the constitutional amendement to ban gay marriage.
He campaigned against the Iraq war but now asked for more money to send more troops to Afganistan. He said he would IMMEDIATELY START BRINGING TROOPS HOME. Well where are they?
He wouldnt raise taxes. Obama got a 100% rating from Citizens for Tax Justice. He wants to tax the hell out of us.
He wants to give amnesty to the illegals presently in our country.
Why give them amnesty they get everything for free anyway.
Oh he wants stricter gun control....he would like to unarm America. He obviously does not think to highly of the 2nd amendment.
He wants socialized medicine. Then the elderly wont be able to get proceedures done because they will be to old.
He wants to force all business even the smallest of the small to pay for heath insurance of its workers. That will close most small businesses because they will not be able to afford it.
And get this.......he voted against the constitutional ban on flag desecration.
He claims to be a Christian and says this about displays of the Ten Commandments.... "If you are not a believer, there would be a feeling that you wouldn't be treated as fairly as a Christian. We want everybody to feel they are treated equally."
Yet he had somewhat of a Christian prayer at his swearing in ceremony. He lives in Washington DC where there are more displays of Christianity than in our churches.
He says that the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance and voluntary student prayer groups on school property are two examples where moderation should be applied to enforcement of the rule...yet no Ten Commandments.
HYPOCRITE.
Wants to end marijuanna raids...so much on "say no to drugs".
Oh thats right he did drugs when he was young, no wonder.
Against vouchers........only way to control the masses of children is public schools.
Against genetically engineered foods but for stem cell research on living human beings.
Obama is against the draft but is in favor of forcing our youth to manditory vounteering.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg8-2008jul08,0,3059710.column?track=rss

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8190501/Obama-National-Service-Plan

The 13th Amendment says: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime ... shall exist within the United States."
Michelle at UCLA says, "Barack Obama will require you to work. He is going to demand that you shed your cynicism. That you put down your divisions. That you come out of your isolation, that you move out of your comfort zones. That you push yourselves to be better. And that you engage. Barack will never allow you to go back to your lives as usual, uninvolved, uninformed."
http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjljYjA3YTYzMjU2ZjA5Yzg1MmM2YjIzZjEyN2ZjZjk

Even Obamas tickets come with a catch.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/12/obama-tickets-come-catch/

HYPOCRITE, MASTER MANIPULATOR
Obama said, "My faith teaches me," he told the convention the United Church of Christ, "that I can sit in church and pray all I want, but I won't be fulfilling God's will unless I go out and do the Lord's work."
And he is pro-choice. Everything he says, he stands for..... bibically he goes against in word and action.
Some think he is the messiah and his changes will mold us into some harmonious, happy go lucky nation where we all believe the same way. His changes, his ideology will bring our nation down. He is a master manipulator I will give him that one. People just blindly follow him.

Now you say you are an expert on Christian scripture......so do Obamas ideals and morals line up with scripture? Start with his beliefs on abortion. How does your president size up on this one.
Do his views about forced volunteerism agree with the Constitution?

reply from: churchmouse

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." --- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738
Well I believe Jefferson didn't get it right. I am not sure based on what he said that he was saved the way the scriptures and Christ talk about being saved.
Jesus said we would be judged on what we believe.
You must believe what Christ said in the scriptures and who HE SAID HE WAS to be saved.
JESUS saith unto him, " I AM the way, the truth and the life; no man cometh unto THE FATHER but by ME." John 14:6
JESUS said unto her, ' I AM the resurrection and the life; he that believeth on ME, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11: 25-26
JESUS said, 'for GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
And HE [JESUS ] said unto them, 'ye are from beneath; I AM from above, ye are of this world, I AM not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:23-24
JESUS said, 'verily, verily, I say unto you, ' he that receiveth whomsoever I send, receiveth ME, and he that receiveth ME, receiveth HIM that sent Me.' John 13: 20
We cant do enough good works to make it to heaven. It is Gods grace and our belief in Him that is the key to salvation.
Eph 2:4-10 (NIV) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Its not what we did, its what we believed, Jefferson was wrong.
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."--- Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75
I agree with him some-what on this one. Christians should do more good works but this has nothing to do with if someone is saved by good works. I think from this quote Jefferson shows that he feels that works are where its at. Reading the scripture and praying are important and it is the way we form a relationship with God.
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816
Christianity is all about a relationship; the relationship one has with Christ. The scriptures are the Word of God. And anyone that denies that they are can hardly call themself a Christian. Christianity is not bloody or evil. Mens sinful acts have tarnished Christianity. Many horrendous things have been done in the name of Christianity. That does not mean all Christians are evil.
Some people say that the 9-11 terrorists do NOT represent Islam. Do they? Is it fair that you or Adams lump all evils in the world and imply that its because of Christianity? Look at the good Christians have done.
Christ said turn the other cheek, He said, love your enemy. What did Muhammed say? Allah command?
And by the way I am working on a reply about Islam on the other thread.....I have been sick and gone for a week.
I could go through all the quotes you posted but why? At least I attempted to address them. You however seem to always ignore the ones I post.
"From the first Charter of Virginia that talked of "propogating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in darkness" to the U.S Constitution that was approved by the founders....."IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD"... as the Supreme Court concluded in 1892 (just little over 100 years after the Constitution was written) "this is a Christian nation"....and as Benjamin Franklin himself said to those at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, "I have lived...a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice,(Matthew 10:29) is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. (Psalm 127:1) I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel."
GAry Demar
[T]he Holy Scriptures . . . can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase our penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses.
(James McHenry, Signer of Constitution, Sec'y of War)
"Long before Lord Hale declared that Christianity was a part of the laws of England, the Court of Kings Bench, 34 Eliz. in Ratcliff's case, 3 Coke Rep. 40, b. had gone so far as to declare that "in almost all cases, the common law was grounded on the law of God, which it was said was causa causans," and the court cited the 27th chapter of Numbers, to show that their judgment on a common law principle in regard to the law of inheritance, was founded on God's revelation of that law to Moses.
State v. Chandler, 2 Harr. 553 at 561 (1837)"
Year 1620.....What did the Mayflower Compact say? Did it mention at all THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH? What did the Charter of Massachusetts say? How about the Charter for Rhode Island and Providence? How about the Delaware Charter of 1701? Jesus Christ is in all of them.
George Washington signed the Constitution........."in the year of our Lord", and those who helped author the document signed it.
Who do they refer to as Lord?
Why would men who denied Christ as Lord, who did not believe we were a Christian nation........sign this important document as it was? If the founding fathers wanted religion kept out........if the authors of each and every state Constitution wanted it to be secular......why religious references?
Would you? I certainly would sign any document that made reference to Allah or Muhammed.
What do you think about Henrys statement.
Patrick Henry said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

reply from: Yuuki

Actually this nation was founded by Deists.

reply from: Cecilia

Ok you want to play with words, you don't want to admit what this PROCEDURE REALLY DOES. What does this medical procedure do that all the rest of them don't do?
What is the GOAL OF EVERY ABORTIONIST?
You won't say the word kill will you? The job of the abortionist is NOT DONE UNTIL WHAT HAPPENS?
Your darn straight you don't attach meaning to the life in the womb, because it obviously means nothing to you. You are willing to look away.
There are many people who don't believe there is a God and they are pro-life. They look to what science has to say. But you look at science and still deny life. You don't sit well with anyone who loves all life and believes that killing, dismembering the unborn is wrong.
Does it matter? You are pro-choice and you look away. Would it matter to you if the unborn were 6 months, 8 months, 9 months? If you are pro-choice you would have to condone all abortions at any gestational age, even after viability. Obama is for infanticide......are you?
Why should she need a good reason? You are pro-choice and believe the woman has the right to kill you said that so yourself. Is there something wrong with abortion Cecilia?
If its none of your business and you could stand at the tableside of a woman aborting, then why should she need to have a good reason. I would think any reason would be good enough for a pro-choicer.
'
You are free to worship whatever you want Cecilia.
I will quote Patrick Henry because he says its best.
In 1776, he stated, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
He was backed up by James Madison who was the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, who said this. "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."
Need I say more.
And what secular country on this planet has been successful and has afforded the freedoms that America has upon its citizens?
I have actually said it is killing time and time again but you and poeple like you don't read. the rest of your response is so out of context and didn't address anything i said it is just a bunch of hallabooey.
France, Oceanas, Scandanavian countries...these are secular states with much success and afford many freedomes to it's citizens. i noted you did not reply to: "it is so strange to me that in these times of "evidence based" practice for everything, that a belief system with zero evidence is considered the very foundation of the tenents of our society". it is hard to come up with an educated reponse if you stay in your little box and not peek out once in a while.

reply from: ProInformed

OK, enough of YOUR hallabooey Cecilia...
back to the topic of this thread:
There is no real pro-choice movement since the abortion industry calls its pro-abort lobby groups 'pro-choice';
and pro-choice individuals have no problem with that.

reply from: Shenanigans

I don't consider any nation to be Christain when they slaughter 1.2million unborn children every year, when they people like Obama in charge, when they denouce abstiance, push for euthanasia, ESCR, homosexual marriage, defacto relations, have celebrity adulterly celebrated, the death pentalty, homeless people are ignored and shunned, and a rubbish health care system that favours the rich.
America stopped being a "christain nation" a very very long time ago.

reply from: ProInformed

Originally posted by: ProInformed
Back to the topic -
Why isn't there a pro-choice movement that is willing to DO something about the problem of abortion clinics misleading women, lying to women, and siding with those who pressure women, in order to get them to agree to abort?
Why isn't the so-called 'pro-choice' movement concerned enough to DO something about all the anti-choice/pro-abortion tactics that women are subjected to?
Again, there are obviously a pro-abort movement and a pro-life movement, but no real pro-choice movement. Polls consistently show that only a small minority of the citizens really endorse the current legal status of abortion, agree with what the so-called 'pro-choice' (pro-abortion) groups stand for, so why aren't all those 'moderates' and 'pro-choicers' doing anything about it (besides whining at pro-lifers to not call them pro-abort)?
IF you folks that call yourselves pro-choice moderates are so content to let the abortion industry lobby groups pretend that they are the pro-choice movement, then you have nobody but yourselves to blame when your claim to be pro-choice instead of pro-abortion is not considered credible.
Anyway if you can't even articulate what the difference between a pro-abort and a pro-choicer is yourselves, when you state that THE goal of pro-choice is JUST to keep abortion legal (um the only goal of pro-aborts too), then how can you justify whining when pro-lifers can't see any real difference between you and the pro-aborts?
If you don't mind pro-aborts parading as pro-choice, calling the pro-abort movement 'pro-choice', then really what's the big deal if pro-lifers don't make a distinction between pro-abort and pro-choice EITHER?
You 'pro-choicers' sure don't mind the pro-aborts saying you are all in the same camp, do you?
FOR 35 YEARS the pro-abort movement has called itself the 'pro-choice' movement, without being challenged by you (supposedly so different than pro-aborts) 'pro-choicers' LOL.

reply from: ProInformed

Of course women have a right to be angry when they are lied to and/or coerced to do something AND they also have a right to demand that it not be legally allowed for women to continue to be treated that way. Any truly pro-choice person would support legislation to punish those who treat women that way.
Ah but apparently there is NO real pro-choice movement because the movement that calls itself 'pro-choice' defends the lying clinics and openly opposes all legislative efforts to grant pregnant women the patient protection right of informed consent, and the 'pro-choice' citizens have been OK with that for three and a half decades.

reply from: churchmouse

His voting record says something different. I gave links.
I gave you credible links on his voting record.
http://obamaandinfanticide.com/

"This nurse is named Jill Stanek, and she has become an ardent opponent of Obama in his political career, after he opposed this legislation at the state level, and also struck it down before a vote as the head of the Health and Human Services committee for the Illinois State Legislature. He opposed this legislation whenever it was brought before him. When, in the United States Senate, this same bill was brought before him, he voted "Present", while 98 of the other 100 senators voted in favor of this legislation. While not voting against the Born Alive Infants Protection Act (BAIPA) at the national level, a position that would have for good reason been wildly unpopular, he was the only senator to argue against the legislation on the floor. An excerpt of his opposition follows:
This is what he said. "As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child - however way you want to describe it - is now outside the mother's womb and the doctor continues to think that it's nonviable but there's, let's say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead, that, in fact, they would then have to call a second physician to monitor and check off and make sure that this is not a live child that could be saved.'
National Review
Note that Obama voted "Present" on some abortion and infanticide legislation. The reasons behind this can be many. However, a chief lobbyist for Planned Parenthood stated that Obama was coached to vote present so as to cause more people who were considering voting pro-life to vote "present" along with him, therefore nullifying their votes. Washington Post Fact Checker
This is why he voted the way he did. If he was against it he would have voted against it.
" Pam Sutherland ... of ... Illinois Planned Parenthood ... told ABC News, "We worked with him specifically on his strategy. The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive.' They put these bills out all the time ... because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats. ..."
SB-230 - Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act - Present
HB-382 - Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act - Present
HB-1900 - Parental Notice of Abortion Act - Present
SB-562 - Parental Notice of Abortion Act - Present
HB-1093 - Law to Protect Live Born Children - Present
HB-1094 - Bill to Protect Children Born as a Result of an Induced Labor Abortion - Present
HB-1095 - Bill defining "born-alive infant" to include infant "born alive at any stage of development." - Present
SB-1662 - Born Alive Infant Protection Act - Judiciary Committee - No
SB-1662 - Born Alive Infant Protection Act - IL Senate Floor - No - Audio From Jill Stanek's Website
SB-1082 Born Alive Infant Protection Act - No
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59702

Obama said, "I just want to suggest ... that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny.
Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a 9-month-old - child that was delivered to term. ...
I mean, it - it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional."
"But my opponent's (Keyes) accusations nagged at me. ... If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons but seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all."
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/obamas_infanticide_problem.html

http://www.timellsworth.com/politics/obamas-support-for-infanticide

audio............a burden
http://www.jillstanek.com/29383467.mp3

http://www.jillstanek.com/29383467.wav

Here is the Senate transcript.
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/08/baipaobamamp3.html

Obama and FOCA
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/07/one_year_annive.html

reply from: Faramir

Then how come we have an overwhelming majority of "pro abortion" legistlators?
Somebody has to be voting for them, and it takes more than a small minority for them to be elected.

reply from: Faramir

No it isn't.
It is law. Whether you consider it morally wrong is your own choice. But there is a LAW stating a woman can get an abortion. This law exists.
The best thing to do is just smile and agree with her.
(She thinks her father is Napoleon too...)

reply from: Shenanigans

I'll have you know, that I am absolutely ashamed and disgusted at New Zealand's moral failings, and beleive you me, there's a hell of a lot more here then in America. I certainly don't consider NZL christain, less then 30% of people adhere to a christain domination, and more people are citing "no religion" as a selection on the census.
My point was, whether or not America started out as "christain" is not the issue, my issue is that America, having what may or may not have been christain values or at least an understanding of such, cannot be claimed to so now.

reply from: yoda

Partly because politics makes strange bedfellows. In the Democrat party, which is the majority party right now, it's "Politically Correct" to be "ProChoice". It's not a matter of actual conviction on the subject, it's just how people in a particular political group try to be homogeneous, for the sake of "unity". We saw a small effort to revolt against that trend in the group that called themselves "PUMA" in last year's election.

reply from: yoda

Still taking your little snipes and potshots? How very compassionate of you...

reply from: churchmouse

I know this is off topic but I had to reply to Concerned and Yukki who dont think we had any Christians that started this country. History shows a different story.
For men who rejected the Christian religion their actions certainly didn't show it. Their actions showed the opposite.
Every President takes his oath of office with his left hand on the Bible and concludes that the oath with these words: "So help me God."
Why if they are not Christian?
Patrick Henry said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
Why?
Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible: "I am a Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator and, I hope, to the pure doctrine of Jesus also."
Did he consider himself a Christian?
George Washington said, "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
Why would he say anything like this if one, he was not a Christian and two there was separation of church and state?
The first Court Justice, John Jay said that when we select our national leaders, if we are to preserve our Nation, we must select Christians. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
He was on the Supreme Court...........did he see any separation of C and S? What faith does it look like he had?
John Quincy Adams was our sixth U.S. President.
He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society. Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
Oh it sounds like he rejected Christianity doesn't it.
Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."
And I do not stand alone.
And what did James Madison, a primary author of the Constitution of the United States say. "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."
Where do we find the Ten Commandments?
Harvard University was chartered in 1636. It is certainly secular today but in the original Harvard Student Handbook rule number one was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the scriptures:
"Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let everyone seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of him (Proverbs 2:3)."
"One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is part of the Common Law. . . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at its foundations. . . . I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society."
-- US Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story,
Founder of Harvard Law School
In fact most the universities founded in America then were Christian.
On the walls of the Capitol dome, these words appear: "The New Testament according to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
Why in our nations capital building, a public building would this appear if we were not a Christian nation?
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/clocks/porch/porchwalk.htm
"Likewise, the walls of the Capitol dome would have to be remodeled because these words clearly appear: "The New Testament according to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." On the sail is the motto of the Pilgrims, "In God We Trust, God Is With Us."
Inscribed in the Seal is the phrase, Annuit Coeptis, which means, "God has smiled on our undertaking." Under the Seal is engraved the phrase, "This nation under God," from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=76

http://www.lovetolearnplace.com/SpecialDays/ChristianHeritage/Architecture.html

I have asked several times what you think the word LORD means in the Constitution. Who were they, these non-Christian men making reference to?
"IN THE YEAR OF OUR LORD". Our means that more than one believe it. Believe what? In the year of WHAT?
Our being the collective pronoun,,,,,,, implies that it is the Lord for ALL the signers.

So, was the original intent of our founding fathers to keep religion completely out of the government? Oh it looks like it doesn't it?
"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God."
Gouverneur Morris was the founding father who physically wrote the Constitution, and most active member of Constitutional Convention, spoke 173 times on the floor.
"Why...should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the sacred book that is thus early impressed last long; and, probably, if not impressed in infancy, never takes hold of the mind."
Fisher Ames, 1809, helped provide the wording for the First Amendment.
"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush, signer.
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars.... The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them.... Let it simply be asked, 'Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert?' ...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
(George Washington, 1796)
[T]he Holy Scriptures . . . can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase our penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses.
(James McHenry, Signer of Constitution, Sec'y of War)
http://www.restore-christian-america.org/education.html

reply from: churchmouse

France is a joke, a weak nation. And they think they still matter. They are nothing more than social experiment and failure of welfare, government bureaucracy, and complete state dependence. They are,what we are becoming and by the end of Obamas term.......we will be all the more closer to a socialist state.
Scandanavian countries you say?
Here is how they rate......
http://www.heritage.org/index/Ranking.aspx

Lets see.....France comes in at 64th.
"Consequently, most elderly in Sweden either live depressed and alone in their homes, waiting for death to come their way, or they have been institutionalized in public elderly collective living facilities with 24/7 surveillance so as to alleviate the burden on the younger working generations. Some of them get to see their grandchildren and relatives only for an hour or two at Christmas, when the families make an effort to visit their "problems." http://mises.org/story/2190

A utopia? Euthanasia is legal there, even for teenagers. You don't need to be terminal ..you can drop the countries most vulnerable off to be disposed of.
Finland is in the top 10 countries with the highest suicide rates in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

Sweden......
http://mises.org/story/955

Ahhhhh socialism is so great isn't it?
"In Europe, roughly 20% of the working-age population - or 60 million people - depend on various government benefits as their sole or main income, compared with 13% in the U.S."
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2007/05/09/the-welfare-state-causes-sickness/

And I did address your comment above. I also gave examples.
Well I totally agree and I do not believe we are a Christian nation any more, secular humanists have seen to that. We are a nation that has turned its back on God......and it shows. But I still would rather live here than anywhere else in the world. Europe has also turned its back on God and we will slidin down behind them on that slippery slope.
How could that be? We morally are so evil. We celebrate degrading and immoral things. A model for the world WE ARE NOT.
You are right.....we display as a nation nothing godly thats for sure.

reply from: ProInformed

Then how come we have an overwhelming majority of "pro abortion" legistlators?
Somebody has to be voting for them, and it takes more than a small minority for them to be elected.
Partly because the pro-abort politicians, abortion lobbyists, and old biased media lie to the citizens about the current legal status of abortion.
When citizens who are not aware of the extremist status quo, and are falsely assured that pro-abort politicans are 'pro-choice moderates', they then vote for pro-abort extremists disguised as 'pro-abort moderates'.
Those citizens think that those 'moderate' politicians agree with them that most of the abortions being done should be banned and/or they are not aware that the current legal status of abortion allows abortion-on-demand for the entire nine months of pregnancy.
The polls DO consistently show that the majority of the citizens do NOT endorse the current legal status of abortion! BUT a majority of citizens also do not even KNOW what the current legal status of abortion is! So in polls citizens will state they are opposed to things like:
serial abortions being used instead of BC,
parents being stripped of their right to be informed - to protect their underage daughters,
late-term abortions being done for non-medical excuses,
taxpayers being forced to pay for abortions,
partial-birth-abortions,
babies who survive abortions being killed outside the womb...
BUT those SAME citizens might not be aware that some of those things are legal or that the 'moderate' politicans they vote for defend such pro-abort extremist things being legal.
Unfortunately too many citizens are easily conned into voting for pro-abort politicians just based on whatever lies they're told instead of actually checking out the voting record and affiliations of those so-called 'moderate' politicians.

reply from: ProInformed

A question for Faramir:
Why isn't there a pro-choice movement that is willing to DO something about the problem of abortion clinics misleading women, lying to women, and siding with those who pressure women, in order to get them to agree to abort?

reply from: ProInformed

A question for concernedparent:
Why isn't the so-called 'pro-choice' movement concerned enough to DO something about all the anti-choice/pro-abortion tactics that women are subjected to?

reply from: ProInformed

So are you admitting that there really is no difference between pro-aborts and 'pro-choicers'?
And why do you think most who call themselves 'pro-choice' do so much whining when pro-lifers point out the obvious - that there really doesn't seem to be any difference between the two?
Isn't it logical to expect that those 'pro-choicers' who do not want to be called pro-abort actually DO SOMETHING TO MAKE A DISTINCTION between themselves and the pro-aborts (um besides whining that is)?

reply from: Faramir

Then how come we have an overwhelming majority of "pro abortion" legistlators?
Somebody has to be voting for them, and it takes more than a small minority for them to be elected.
Partly because the pro-abort politicians, abortion lobbyists, and old biased media lie to the citizens about the current legal status of abortion.
When citizens who are not aware of the extremist status quo, and are falsely assured that pro-abort politicans are 'pro-choice moderates', they then vote for pro-abort extremists disguised as 'pro-abort moderates'.
Those citizens think that those 'moderate' politicians agree with them that most of the abortions being done should be banned and/or they are not aware that the current legal status of abortion allows abortion-on-demand for the entire nine months of pregnancy.
The polls DO consistently show that the majority of the citizens do NOT endorse the current legal status of abortion! BUT a majority of citizens also do not even KNOW what the current legal status of abortion is! So the same citizens will state they are opposed to things like:
serial abortions being used instead of BC,
parents being stripped of their right to be informed - to protect their underage daughters,
late-term abortions being done for non-medical excuses,
partial-birth-abortions,
babies who survive abortions being killed outside the womb...
will not be aware of some of thsoe things being legal or that the 'moderate' politicans they vote for defend such pro-abort extremist things.

Unfortunately too many citizens are easily conned into voting for pro-abort politicians just based on whatever lies they tell instead of actually cheking out the voting record and affiliations of those so-called 'moderate' politicians.
Here's my theory.
Even if the majority of voters in our country oppose abortion (and I'm not convinced of that, but will accept it for the sake of argument), not enough of them care more about the unjust deaths than they do about Number One.
They might see abortion as a "side issue," but they are voting selfishly for the candidate they think can do the most good for them.
If most people truly opposed abortion because of the injustice, they would put that issue first and vote pro-life. The fact that they don't, and the fact that they don't bother to find out the basic information about it, demonstates how little they care.

reply from: ProInformed

My mother pressured me into going to a 'pro-choice' clinic for a pregnancy test.
My mother wanted me to abort but knew I didn't want to.
Over the phone we were assured by the clinic receptionist that their NAF endorsed, 'pro-choice' clinic WAS not pro-abortion only and that it was the sort of place that women could go to for a pregnancy test and to be told the truth and given info about other options besides abortion.
After the pregnancy test and 'counseling' (lies) I made it clear I did not want to 'choose' to abort.
so then the clinic 'counselor' lied to me and told me I 'had to' abort or else both me and my baby might die.
Using lies and coercion to convince women to submit to abortion is PRO-ABORT.
Banning abortions so that no women can kill their babies by abortion is PRO-LIFE.
So WHERE is the mythical 'pro-choice' POV in the middle, eh?
WHERE IS the so-called 'pro-choice' ADVOCACY, groups, and movement -
that supports legalized abortion BUT just as aggressively OPPOSES the pro-abort and ANTI-CHOICE lies and coercion?
It doesn't really exist, does it?

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion is a grave evil and never a valid moral choice. Each and every abortion is wrong and those that advocate the right to choose abortion constitute a movement and need to be stopped. It is a gravely disordered conscience and perversion of the will which rationalizes choosing abortion either for ones own self or for another human person. Abortion kills a human person and is therefore murder. No murder is justifiable.

reply from: Banned Member

Under moral government authority, advocates of abortion should be considered enemies of the state and terrorists and those who commit abortion should be charged with crimes against humanity.

reply from: ProInformed

I totally agree, because I am pro-life.
Using lies and coercion to convince women to submit to abortion is PRO-ABORT
(NOT 'pro-choice')
Banning abortions so that no women can kill their babies by abortion IS PRO-LIFE.
So WHERE is the mythical 'pro-choice' POV in the middle, eh?
WHERE IS the so-called 'pro-choice' ADVOCACY, groups, and movement -
that supports legalized abortion BUT just as aggressively OPPOSES the pro-abort and ANTI-CHOICE lies and coercion?
It doesn't really exist, does it?
And even if it did,
if there WERE pro-choice groups who defended legalized abortion AND opposed the pro-aborts,
who supported legislation to make sure that women were not lied to or coerced in order to increase abortion sales,
who refused to allow pro-aborts to hide behind the 'pro-choice' label,
I would still be pro-life and would still oppose both the pro-aborts and the choicists.
But why let the pro-aborts pretend they are 'pro-choice' when they obviously are not? There is no logical reason, no strategical advantage, for either real pro-lifers OR real pro-choicers (if any actually exist) to allow pro-aborts to pretend they are the pro-choicers, is there?
There is no excuse for 'pro-choicers' to not form real pro-choice groups to challenge the pro-aborts (not just the pro-lifers)... no excuse unless they are also just pro-aborts pretending to be 'pro-choice'.
Which apparently they ARE!

reply from: ProInformed

Which is it:
It's OK for women to trust that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics are NOT just pro-abortion, that they can go there for just a pregnancy test and info...
or:
women should realize (um despite the false advertising otherwise) that the clinics are really pro-abortion and that women should go to the clinics ONLY if they want an abortion?
Spinwiddy posted this in another thread:
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/...8&enterthread=y
<br ">http://www.prolifeamer...om/.....terthread=y
"Why would you be happy about making contraceptive access, cancer screening, and STD screening/treatment options MORE difficult?"
So when women trust the spinfibbies and go to 'pro-choice' clinics for other reasons than to get an abortion, but then are told lies and pressured to abort instead, it's OK to make fun of those woman AFTERWARDS because they supposedly should have known that the ONLY reason to go to 'pro-choice' clinics is to get an abortion?
So Cecilia, what do you think of spinfibby's claim that there ARE other reasons for going to the clinics than to get an abortion?
You two obviously disagree on that, don't you?

reply from: ProInformed

I reported this lie to the moderator and am quoting it for evidence of spinwiddy's delusional lying.

reply from: ProInformed

That's only because there is no distinction between those two terms. And they only complain because they are ashamed to be associated with the word "abortion".
APPARENTLY you are right Yodavater - they whine that they want us to acknowledge some sort of difference between themselves and the pro-aborts...
BUT they won't DO anything to make a distinction between themselves and the pro-aborts (verbal claims that they won't back up by DOING a darn thing do NOT count).
I really don't see why they complain so much about pro-lifers not acknowledging their claim to the pro-choice title when they have NO complaints about the pro-aborts claiming the 'pro-choice' title for their pro-abort movement LOL!
Hey if they're so obviously content to allow the pro-aborts to claim there is no difference between pro-abort and pro-choice then why such hissy fits when pro-lifers agree with that assessment?
Hmmm...
still no evidence posted in this thread that there is a real pro-choice movement.

reply from: ProInformed

Which is it:
It's OK for women to trust that the so-called 'pro-choice' clinics are NOT just pro-abortion, that they can go there for just a pregnancy test and info...
or:
women should realize (um despite the false advertising otherwise) that the clinics are really pro-abortion and that women should go to the clinics ONLY if they want an abortion?
Spinwiddy posted this in another thread:
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/...8&enterthread=y
<br ">http://www.prolifeamer...om/.....ad=y
"Why would you be happy about making contraceptive access, cancer screening, and STD screening/treatment options MORE difficult?"
So if when women trust the spinfibbies and go to 'pro-choice' clinics for other reasons than to get an abortion, but then are told lies and pressured to abort instead, it's OK to make fun of those woman AFTERWARDS because they supposedly should have known that the ONLY reason to go to 'pro-choice' clinics is to get an abortion?
So Cecilia, what do you think of spinfibby's claim that there ARE other reasons for going to the clinics than to get an abortion?
You two obviously disagree on that, don't you?
Still waiting for your respnse Cecelia...

reply from: Yuuki

That's only because there is no distinction between those two terms. And they only complain because they are ashamed to be associated with the word "abortion".
APPARENTLY you are right Yodavater - they whine that they want us to acknowledge some sort of difference between themselves and the pro-aborts...
BUT they won't DO anything to make a distinction between themselves and the pro-aborts (verbal claims that they won't back up by DOING a darn thing do NOT count).
I really don't see why they complain so much about pro-lifers not acknowledging their claim to the pro-choice title when they have NO complaints about the pro-aborts claiming the 'pro-choice' title for their pro-abort movement LOL!
Hey if they're so obviously content to allow the pro-aborts to claim there is no difference between pro-abort and pro-choice then why such hissy fits when pro-lifers agree with that assessment?
Hmmm...
still no evidence posted in this thread that there is a real pro-choice movement.
Is there a "right to have chocolate" movement? A "right to drive a car" movement? People certainly support these things, but there isn't necessarily a "movement" of pro-chocolate people. That doesn't mean people can't BE pro-chocolate. I'm pro-chocolate for sure! These things are already legal. But when something needs protecting, even if it is legal, THEN it becomes a movement. Pro-choicers feel abortion is under attack: and they are right.

reply from: ProInformed

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
Yes, there is.
That's why you were able to CHOOSE to have the abortion you wanted to have.
So since you pretend that women who are lied to in order to convince them to buy an abortion are supposedly making a 'choice',
since according to you EVEN women who said they did not want to abort but then only did so because they were told the LIE that both they and their baby will die anyway if they didn't abort,
according to you "CHOOSE to have the abortion (they) wanted to have"...
Then IF pro-life crisis pregnancy centers are supposedly lying to women TOO like the abortion industry clinics ARE, then why don't you make fun of women who go to the pro-life crisis pregnancy centers and then CHOOSE to NOT abort? After all, THOSE WOMEN still could go and have their baby killed at an abortion industry clinic if they didn't believe or didn't like what they were told at the pro-life clinic right?
Why do you ONLY make fun of the women who were lied to in order to convince them TO abort? Why do you ONLY attack the women who don't still have choices after they've been to a clinic that conned them into aborting?
Because you ARE pro-abort - NOT 'pro-choice'.
AND anyone who claims to be 'pro-choice' but doesn't call you out on your obvious pro-abortness is also a pro-abort just pretending to be 'pro-choice'.

reply from: ProInformed

So are you admitting that your goal in posting here is to upset the pro-lifers?
Yet you whine that we don't believe that you are really pro-life?
And you don't seem to be upsetting the pro-aborts at all... hmmm...

reply from: ProInformed

Um - hello...
So I guess it can be accurately concluded that there is no real 'pro-choice' movement and that the posters here who call themselves 'pro-choice' are fine with that, with the pro-aborts pretending that THEY are the 'pro-choicers' and using that label for their abortion industry lobby groups, eh?

reply from: Yuuki

So are you admitting that your goal in posting here is to upset the pro-lifers?
Yet you whine that we don't believe that you are really pro-life?
And you don't seem to be upsetting the pro-aborts at all... hmmm...
No, just to upset Nancyu.

reply from: ProInformed

So are you admitting that your goal in posting here is to upset the pro-lifers?
Yet you whine that we don't believe that you are really pro-life?
And you don't seem to be upsetting the pro-aborts at all... hmmm...
No, just to upset Nancyu.
Why is it your posting goal to upset a pro-life poster?

reply from: ProInformed

BUT there IS a PRO-ABORT movement even though abortion is already legal and as to abortion being under attack... what about the women AND GIRLS the abortion industry preys on, and lies to, and injures and KILLS?!? There is MUCH MORE of an attack on freedom of choice in the form of pro-abort pressures and pro-abort lies from the pro-aborts than there is from the pro-lifers! So isn't it a lie that choicists are protecting 'choice' when the truth is they are protecting abortion and those who put pro-abort pressure on women?
So you defend the apathy of so-called 'pro-choicers' because you basically are admitting that their ONLY goal is to keep abortion legal - NOT to protect the rights and real choices of women. So in your mind it is OK for pro-aborts to claim they are pro-woman and pro-choice when they are really only pro-abortion? You do NOT feel that part of the distinction between being pro-abortion vs pro-choice is PROTECTING females from anti-choice pro-abortion pressures and lies?!?

reply from: Yuuki

So are you admitting that your goal in posting here is to upset the pro-lifers?
Yet you whine that we don't believe that you are really pro-life?
And you don't seem to be upsetting the pro-aborts at all... hmmm...
No, just to upset Nancyu.
Why is it your posting goal to upset a pro-life poster?
Because she is consistently upsetting towards me. It's been several weeks since that incident btw; talk about bringing up old news. I forgive incredibly fast, so as long as people remain civil I'll be civil with them. Nancyu has been... tolerable lately so I've been tolerable back as far as I know.

reply from: ProInformed

Yup - no evidence at all posted in this thread that there is a real 'pro-choice' movement!

reply from: ProInformed

That's only because there is no distinction between those two terms. And they only complain because they are ashamed to be associated with the word "abortion".
I don't think it's so much that they are ashamed (althought they SHOULD BE)... as that they are trying to hide their real agenda from scrutiny.

reply from: Eos

Of course they'll disappear. Their goal will have been realized.
I'm fine with people having agendas, but I hate that these "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" essentially have to mislead women to get them inside, where they stuff them with the lies you mentioned.

reply from: ProInformed

Yup - no evidence at all posted in this thread that there is a real 'pro-choice' movement!
STILL - zero evidence posted in this thread that the so-called 'pro-choice' movement is anything but pro-abort, anti-choice, anti-woman...

reply from: ProInformed

If there were a 'pro-choice' movement they'd be actively opposing the pro-aborts.

reply from: ProInformed

They aren't and there isn't.

reply from: ProInformed

Back to the topic -
Why isn't there a pro-choice movement that is willing to DO something about the problem of abortion clinics misleading women, lying to women, and siding with those who pressure women, in order to get them to agree to abort?
Why isn't the so-called 'pro-choice' movement concerned enough to DO something about all the anti-choice/pro-abortion tactics that women are subjected to?

reply from: ProInformed

"In my facilities, I always gave option counseling. Of course you make the abortion the most appealing. I told them about adoption and about foster care and about [when there was welfare] assistance. The typical way it would go is, "Well, you know you can place your baby out for adoption." But then, in the second breath you would say, "That's an option available to you, but you also have to realize that there's going to be a baby of yours out here somewhere in the world you will never see again. At least with abortion you know what's happening. You can go on with your life...The longer I was in it, the less I cared, so I really didn't really care what my conscience said. My conscience was totally numb anyway. But what it did do was public relations-wise. You were able, when a reporter or TV crew came, to pull out a packet of information for the patients to read and they received it. So what can anybody say? Publicly it looked good -- in reality it was another tool that was used to force a woman into abortion. It's typical -- I would give them an option and then shoot it down. The only option you didn't shoot down, obviously, was abortion."
--Former clinic owner Eric Harrah quoted by Dr. Jack Willke and Brad Mattes

reply from: ProInformed

bumping for Jason Fontaine now that he has revealed that his POV is "pro-choice" moderate.

reply from: carolemarie

the pregnancy help centers will help you if you don't have the baby. We don't pay for abortions, but if you have children we will help with diapers and formula and other help, women go to crisis pregnacy center because they are in a crisis pregnancy. We want to help you with a plan so you can have your baby and have a life too. And if abortion was against the law, we would need even more centers to help women and children.

reply from: ProInformed

Please be more specific.
Are your comments related to the topic of this thread or a reponse to something somebody posted in this thread?
Are you presenting an argument for keeping abortion legal, or implying that pro-lifers (um and 'pro-choicers' and the baby's fathers) won't do enough to help women and children if abortion were illegal?
BTW even if there were a crisis pregnancy center on every block in every town and city all across the nation, that wouldn't stop all the abortions that are done for reasons like some males prefer non-pregnant and childless females.

reply from: carolemarie

in response to this
Originally posted by: Cecilia
on the flip side, you walk into a women's crisis center and you are going to hear all kinds of lies about abortion and religion, and get fed a story that babies are easy peasy and they will help you every step of the way...every step until baby past viability or born, and then, if you need help they will make fun of you for filing for WIC or welfare benefits. they will vote so that social services are limited for single mothers, and they will preach about your hellbound self unless you tithe to Jesus every week.
i wonder if abortion becomes illegal will the crisis centers disappear since their only goal is to oppose choice?
Of course they'll disappear. Their goal will have been realized.
I'm fine with people having agendas, but I hate that these "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" essentially have to mislead women to get them inside, where they stuff them with the lies you mentioned.

reply from: yoda

Are you quoting or agreeing with them?

reply from: ProInformed

Thanx for the clarification.
The sad thing is that if Cecilia had gone to a crisis pregnancy center they coudl have helped her save herself and her baby from the abusive male who forced her to abort. Maybe it's easier for her to bash crisis pregnancy centers than to realize that?

reply from: carolemarie

It all depends when her abortion was.....back in the 70's and early 80's there were either none, or not as many.....so her perceptions may be colored by that.

reply from: sander

I don't know if this has been addressed further on in this thread, however, it caught my eye.
You are a very stupid person.
How dare you ridicule those hard working men and women who VOLUNTEER and DONATE TIME AND MONEY to HELP those who are in need.
It never ceases to amaze me how you proaborts can lie thru your lousy teeth witthout ever blinking an eye.
There's a word for you....it's not a nice once, so I'll stick to schmuck, that's as nice as you deserve.

reply from: 4choice4all

"How dare you ridicule those hard working men and women who VOLUNTEER and DONATE TIME AND MONEY to HELP those who are in need. "
Many prochoice people volunteer time and donate money to those in need....you wouldn't defend them though.
Anyone that has ever volunteered with a QUALITY crisis shelter or crisis pregnancy center(and I have, a catholic prolife one) will tell you that they are not all equal. Some are just there to get you to not abort...never to help you again. The one I worked with housed the women(and any children they had) throughout their pregnancy and until they could transition you into your own furnished place. It is a wonderful program.

reply from: sander

How the hell would you know? Go ahead and continue to make ASSumptions and make the ASS out of yourself....like that's something new.
Name the "some" and back up that accusation with actual documented facts, or put a sock in it for once.
I have volunteered and I say you're talking nothing but smack because the CPC's are there to point women to the best direction for both her and her child and that irks the hell out of you people.
They all do the very best they can with what they have, you moron.
And that program obviously had better resources. That you would talk bad about any charity speaks volumes about what an jackass you are.

reply from: prochoiceinNY

That's the great thing about choice, you can make the wrong one and still have the choice to ***** about it on a public forum. In the meantime, women are making the right choice for them and their families and not being upset about it, because it was the right choice for them.
How is it our fault if a woman makes the wrong choice?
Working at McD's was the wrong choice for me, but you don't hear me complaining about the grease I got on my clothes or the burns on my hands from the deep fryer.
Build a bridge and get over it!

reply from: ProInformed

Well it's still a shame that whatever supposedly 'pro-choice/pro-woman' clinic she went to didn't help her, instead of just giving her the abortion her husband demanded that she get.
The fact that such clinics always assume that of course the woman is 'choosing' to abort, even if they have bruises and an obvious bully brings them to the clinic, reveals that such clinics are not really interested in helping women.

reply from: yoda

Depends on what they are doing, not who they are.
Well, that's a good start..... you can't help a dead child, can you?

reply from: yoda

Every person who helps to move her in the wrong direction bears some of the responsibility for her actions. That includes you.
Was it honest work? Did they promise to pay for your clothes? Did you have medical coverage for your "burns"?
How on earth can you compare killing babies to working at a fast food place?

reply from: faithman

Depends on what they are doing, not who they are.
Well, that's a good start..... you can't help a dead child, can you?
Most CPC's are net worked with helps ministies. CPC's do not have to duplicate services already availible thru others. The bortheads a willingly ignorant of that fact, and it is dishonest to make such acusations.

reply from: ProInformed

Let me guess - another chant and run choicist?
Yawn...
I challenge you to stay around, READ, LEARN, and then post some more.
But I doubt that you will as that might be too scary and too much of a challenge to your current POV.
"How is it our fault if a woman makes the wrong choice?"
Well if a woman has been bullied into aborting or has been told lies in order to get her to buy an abortion, then how is it NOT the fault of the bullies and liars?
Or are you one of those choicist cultists who pretends no women are ever bullied into aborting, never lied to? If so, then all you are doing is aiding and abetting the bullies and liars - NOT helping the women.
The argument that just because some women want to abort, therefore it's OK to force and con other women into aborting, and then pretend it was their own 'choice', is a stupid, stupid, stupid AND anti-woman AND anti-choice argument.
It is a PRO-ABORTION attitude - NOT a 'pro-choice' POV.

reply from: sander

Every person who helps to move her in the wrong direction bears some of the responsibility for her actions. That includes you.
Was it honest work? Did they promise to pay for your clothes? Did you have medical coverage for your "burns"?
How on earth can you compare killing babies to working at a fast food place?
We just have another attention whore....remember, school's out for the summer.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, and after they get fired from McD's they have lots of time on their hands....

reply from: sander

Yeah, and after they get fired from McD's they have lots of time on their hands....
Maybe he/she should apply at Burger King...at least do something to get out of mommy and daddy's basement.

reply from: ProInformed

Every person who helps to move her in the wrong direction bears some of the responsibility for her actions. That includes you.
Was it honest work? Did they promise to pay for your clothes? Did you have medical coverage for your "burns"?
How on earth can you compare killing babies to working at a fast food place?
We just have another attention whore....remember, school's out for the summer.
Yup - school is out - brace yourselves for a fresh batch of brainwashed chanting choicist chickies just hatched from the government pro-abort indoctrination institution (public school).
And this silly little gosling is so uninformed that she didn't even know about the fact that pro-aborts vandalize and kill too. Such naive trust the pro-abort youngsters have in the media and schools that 'teach' them, eh?

reply from: carolemarie

Well it's still a shame that whatever supposedly 'pro-choice/pro-woman' clinic she went to didn't help her, instead of just giving her the abortion her husband demanded that she get.
The fact that such clinics always assume that of course the woman is 'choosing' to abort, even if they have bruises and an obvious bully brings them to the clinic, reveals that such clinics are not really interested in helping women.
Clinic employees are not mental health professionals, it is hard to say if someone is being forced.... if they seperate the two and ask the woman if this is what she wants and she says yes, what are they suppose to do? Same problem that nurses and social workers have with battered women who present in a hospital....most lie and refuse to press charges.....
I think the dynamics of an abusive relationship are not really such that in a half hour walk in and sign a form type situtation that you can even accurately spot it....as far as I know, abortion clinics don't do counseling above this is what it will cost and what we do , sign here.....
i think it is a real problem, but i don't know how to make it stop.....without women being honest about the situtation

reply from: ProInformed

The 'pro-choice' movement is just another nice-sounding name to disguise the racist and eugenic movements.

reply from: ProInformed

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/thenegro.htm

reply from: ProInformed

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/thenegro.htm
E-mail response from somebody I sent a link to the Maafa 21 trailer to:
Last fall I was part of a group who had to do a report on euthanasia (Human Biology class). Two in the group were originally for euthanasia...a third was on the fence, and I was very much against it. I researched Margaret Sanger and her peers and did a powerpoint on it...then showed it to my group-mates. They changed their minds after seeing the link between euthanasia and eugenics. While we were doing the presentation to the class, a classmate asked what euthanasia had to do with eugenics. The group-mate who was the most for euthanasia in the beginning answered quite well...she described the link better than I could!"
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