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Created to Serve

We are to serve our Brother

by: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Jesus set the example; we are to bend down and wash our brother's feet. We are commanded to walk in the footsteps of our example Christ. We are our brother's keeper. That is why we are indignant when a baby born alive at 23 weeks is thrown into the trash in utter contempt for the Federal Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Since God is love, we are required to love God and love our neighbor. We are told to love our brother as ourself and that it is more blessed to give than to receive. No murderer has any inheritance. We are commanded to "be Holy", "be perfect", "come to maturity", reach the "full stature of the man".
Our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and teachers of the law, otherwise, a man in no wise will enter into the kingdom.
Eternal life only comes from reaching maturity, becoming perfect, for the one who continues practicing sin will die.
Only a person who actually behaves righteously will inherit eternal life. The Bible says the righteous are just barely saved, so what shall become of those who practice sin? - they shall die eternally.
Don't be deceived, those who practice sin shall die. But righteousness tends to life and delivers from death. You must actually mature into a person who behaves righteously to inherit eternal life. We were created to serve. Murderers are unfit for the job of serving others.
Satan's ministers tell you that you can come just as you are and be saved because of Christ's Sacrifice. Samuel told Saul clearly, "To obey is better than Sacrifice!"
Yes, there is Sacrifice for past sins made in ignorance and error. The Bible is also equally clear that there is no Sacrifice for those who continue to deliberately practice sin despite having the blood applied, being set apart, and having received the Holy Spirit and tasted of the heavenly gifts. The fire shall consume them...what good are they!
You are saved by becoming a person who lives righteously; a person who actually loves and serves. Everyone wanting to be saved must take up their cross and follow Christ (the Messiah). They walk in the footsteps of the example. They must actually live as Christ lived and become like their Master.
You must become love to be saved. You must serve others and be truly a person that genuinely is concerned with the best possible well-being of others.
We were created to serve...to love others.

reply from: micah

I've read the bible, and Jesus is not the nice guy that he is made out to be. He talks about hell more than any other character in the bible. He also has some choice words to say about divorce, which you won't find many churches repeating.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Oops, I meant Samuel was the one who told King Saul that Obedience was more important than Sacrifice. This was a spiritual statement and was a lesson on Christ's Sacrifice.
As a son of God, you are required to love. Peace and eternal life is impossible if you don't become love. The clay must be molded into a vessel fit for use by God; whether a vessel (cup) of gold, silver or wood, there must be benefits to the vessel (we are vessels for God's use).

reply from: Banned Member

Of course Jesus talks about hell, because that is just where you will be if you don't listen to the rest of what he says.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I've read the bible, and Jesus is not the nice guy that he is made out to be. He talks about hell more than any other character in the bible. He also has some choice words to say about divorce, which you won't find many churches repeating.
He points out that bad apples will be a feast for the worms, fuel for the garbage landfill fires, and ashes under the feet of the saints. Does this offend you? It's the truth. Jesus encourages people to become useful servants of their brothers rather than ending up useless waste. Hell is an old English word for grave, pit, hole, burial site, fires of the city dump. Hell is not a Dante's Inferno existence. There is no conscious existence after death...lest one receives a body in a resurrection.

reply from: micah

The Bible clearly describes hell as a conscious existence. What do you think phrases like "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone", "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night" mean. Come on. Have you never read the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man?
I'm sorry, but I hate any type new-age liberal theology. It's what stops us agnostics from winning the debate. I want Christians to tell the bible as it is, and not some watered-down, pandering, loving theology.

reply from: lycan

Haven't seen you in quite a while. Unfortunately some of the conduct on this board has been quite vicious, probably more so than usual.

reply from: scopia19822

"I want Christians to tell the bible as it is, and not some watered-down, pandering, loving theology."
You would make a wonderful hell fire and brimstone Fundie.

reply from: churchmouse

micah said,
He came to save the lost. He did talk about hell more than anything else because He does not want anyone to perish. He did have some choice things to say about divorce and you are wrong, if you go to any church that stands on the clear doctrines of the bibe, marriage, adultry and divorce, all three are discussed. He lays out perfectly His plan for sex. It is to be between a married couple, one man and one woman, no divorce.
You are 100% wrong. Hell is described in the Bible as an actual place. Obviously you have never read Revelation.
Romans 1:17-18. "In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
We need the Gospel because the wrath of God is being revealed.
The scriptures say......"Fear the Lord" and for very good reason.
You say you have read the Bible. Then what about Romans 5? Universal human death is a revealing or a manifestation of the wrath of God. What about Romans 8? Universal futility and misery are evidence of God's wrath against human sin.
If there is no Judgment Day and no literal hell then the Bible is a huge hoax, in which more than forty authors collaborated to produce a document revealing God's character as "just." He cant be just with no hell. They portrayed Him as a just judge, who warned that He would eventually punish murderers, rapists, liars, thieves, adulterers, etc. If there is no hell then each of those writers bore false witness, transgressing the very commandments they claimed to be true. It also would mean that Jesus was a fraud and a liar and that He died in vain, as did multitudes of martyrs who gave their lives for the cause of Christ.
Why don't you read for yourself. Here is a list of verses about hell to get you started.
Deut 32:22
2 Samuel 22:6
Job 11:8, 26:6
Psalms 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:11, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8
Proverbs 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11, 15:24, 23:14, 27:20
Isaiah 5:14, 14:9, 14:15, 28:15, 28:18, 57:9
Ezekiel 31:16-17, 32:21, 32:27
Amos 9:2
Jonah 2:2
Habakkuk 2:5
Matthew 5:22, 5:29-30, 10:28, 11:23, 16:18, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33
Mark 9:43-47
Luke 10:15, 12:5, 16:23
Acts 2:27-31
James 3:6
2 Peter 2:4
Revelation 1:18, 6-8, 20:13-14
Micah here's the bad news. If the Bible is right and there is eternal justice: You will find yourself standing before the judgment throne of a holy God, who has seen every sin you have ever committed. Think of it. A holy and perfect Creator has seen your thought-life and every secret sin you have ever committed. You have a multitude of sins, and God must by nature carry out justice. Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. Ask Him to bring to remembrance your secret sexual sins, the lies, the gossip, and other idle words you have made. You may have forgotten your past sins, but God hasn't. Hell will be your just desert (exactly what you deserve), and you will have no one to blame but yourself. This is the claim of the Bible. If you don't believe it, it is still true. It will still happen.

Yet, there is good news - incredibly good news. We deserve judgment, but God offers us mercy through the cross. He paid our fine so that we could leave the courtroom. He destroyed the power of the grave for all who obey Him. Simply obey the gospel, and live. By doing that you will find out for yourself that the gospel is indeed the "gospel truth." Jesus said that if you obey Him, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free (see John 8:31,32).
You will regret saying this one day. No excuse He will take. If your name is not written in the book of life, you will perish.

reply from: micah

Moderate Christians are generally far more kind and intelligent than fundamentalists. Nevertheless, moderate Christianity is almost completely unbiblical. I've read the bible and god is not a moderate.

reply from: micah

You're right. I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was disagreeing with GodsLaw4Us2Live. He is a more moderate Christian, and he was saying that bible doesn't support a hell where people are consciously suffering.

reply from: Shenanigans

The Bible clearly describes hell as a conscious existence. What do you think phrases like "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone", "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night" mean. Come on. Have you never read the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man?
THANK YOU!
There's nothing worse IMHO, then some mambly, pambly, God won't turf us into hell, christain!
Hell exists. There's so many passages in the bible to prove it. God kicked the arses of people who pissed Him off and sinned against Him. You piss the Almighty off, you fob your nose at Jesus' payment, you go to Hell. Simple as that. If some christains want to dance around spready happy faces and colourful balloons and the usual white wash, that's their business, which they will answer for.
If a murdered says to a judge "I don't beleive in jail, so you can't send me there, nah nah nah", WTF do you think's going to happen?
Seriously, what's the point of living a good life and accepting God and Jesus and what not if there's no punishment if you don't. If non-existance is the price someone pays for a life of sin and debauchery, for abortion, murder, genocide, rape et cetera et cetera, its not a very well thought out system.
Def of Irony: an agnostic making comment that hell exists and that its in the bible, to a bunch of hippy christains.
Sheesh.

reply from: Shenanigans

Here's how it works in a nut shell.
We're all flawed as heck.
We need to pay for our sin, but we are unable to make the required payment, we just don't have enough.
Jesus came along and died for our sins. Thus, he made the payment for our sins on our behalf.
Its your choice to accept the payment for your sin or not. If you accept Jesus' offer of payment for your sin then you are saved. If you don't, well, hope you like BBQ.
Look at it this way:
You commit a crime and end up in jail. Bail is set at 10 million dollars. You don't have 10 million dollars. Suddenly someone like Bill Gates or Ophra bowls up and feels sorry for you, they offer to make bail for you. You can either accept their generosity and find freedom, or you can refuse it and enjoy your room mate, Pushy's attention.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

God would like to have all men inherit eternal life and live forever...it is a gift. However, those who lack love will cease to exist forever. The future includes peace; not war, fighting and murder. Jude describes death as the blackest darkness. There is no consciousness after death. Many people are cremated...these are the "fires of hell" that you refer to.
I read the Bible cover to cover once a year. Jesus spoke in parables so that people would not understand him. Jesus did not speak without using parables. You misunderstand His parables...as he intended. Isaiah said the command is, "Give them eyes that don't see, and ears that don't hear...." For now, it has been commanded that man be given days in which to do his work. Stubburn man shall learn that his mismanagement shall lead to death...at the end of the road is the extinction of mankind. God says He shall intervene and bring an end to man's rule, otherwise, no flesh would be left alive.
Traditional Christianity is nothing but pagan ideas and superstitions. (It isn't really Christianity at all.)

reply from: sk1bianca

the story about the poor guy called lazarus who goes to heaven and the greedy rich guy who goes to hell seems to contradict your version. both of them seem pretty conscious after death...

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Huh? Goes to heaven? Your preconceived ideas filled in the blanks.
Lazurus is carried to Abraham's bosom. Who said anything about heaven in this story?
I believe this event could be after the resurrection and represent the second death. A burning garbage dump on earth could be the scene.
You fill in the blanks with wrong conclusions based on preconceived ideas.

reply from: sk1bianca

Luke 16:
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
this must have happened before Jesus, because Abraham is talking about obeying the old law (Moses and the prophets). and he's obviously talking about Jesus in the last verse.

reply from: faithman

Huh? Goes to heaven? Your preconceived ideas filled in the blanks.
Lazurus is carried to Abraham's bosom. Who said anything about heaven in this story?
I believe this event could be after the resurrection and represent the second death. A burning garbage dump on earth could be the scene.
You fill in the blanks with wrong conclusions based on preconceived ideas.
It is you who is willingly ignorant. In the story Christ presents, both men DIE. Both men are aware, not asleep. Both are in a place beyond this world. If you have to do semantical back flips, and explain the scipture away to uphold goofy doctrine, then that doctrine is not scriptural, now is it?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Huh? Goes to heaven? Your preconceived ideas filled in the blanks.
Lazurus is carried to Abraham's bosom. Who said anything about heaven in this story?
I believe this event could be after the resurrection and represent the second death. A burning garbage dump on earth could be the scene.
You fill in the blanks with wrong conclusions based on preconceived ideas.
It is you who is willingly ignorant. In the story Christ presents, both men DIE. Both men are aware, not asleep. Both are in a place beyond this world. If you have to do semantical back flips, and explain the scipture away to uphold goofy doctrine, then that doctrine is not scriptural, now is it?
I don't get this "a place beyond this world" bit; why you would jump to such a conclusion? Suffice it to say, I believe the dead turn back into dust, there is no thought process after death, that death is pictured as the blackest darkness. I know if I lose I eye, I cannot see. If I lose an ear, I cannot hear. If your brain dies, you cannot think. Simple observation. No brain, no consciousness. You see it everyday with someone in a coma.
The resurrection promises a spiritual body rather than a physical body; that is, a body formed out of energy that does not break down and decay as physical matter, which is also copmposed of energy, does. The mind, which controls the brain, is composed of spiritual energy raher than physical energy; but God can destroy even the spiritual mind...or provide a spirit composed body in which to house the mind (hardware for the software to operate, if you will).
God does not stick a pitchfork in someone forever in the form of fire.

reply from: micah

So if you became convinced that there was no camera in the sky watching our every movement, you would have no problem with killing a fetus or raping a woman?

reply from: faithman

So if you became convinced that there was no camera in the sky watching our every movement, you would have no problem with killing a fetus or raping a woman?
Not at all. If what I belive weren't true, then I would be a humanist. The humanist manifesto declares that eternity for them is found in the face of their children. Why would I want eternaty cut off by abortion?!!! A proabort humanist blasphemes their own belief system.

reply from: Rosalie

You will regret saying this one day. No excuse He will take. If your name is not written in the book of life, you will perish.
Do you really think your bullying and threats will turn anyone into a believer? A true believer? You are supposed to believe and act according to the Bible because you love god, not because you are afraid and others are trying to bully you.
Then again, the followers of this religion made it what it is right now, so it's no wonder that your tactic is throwing around words like "fear, wrath and judgment". Just another big, insecure bully who doesn't know what to do with their life and instead of taking responsibility of it, you hide behind your religion.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your god really does exist.
He MADE people like this, he KNEW what was going to happen and then he is trying to appear all good and wise and FORGIVE you if you fear him enough and if you are horrible enough to those who don't care about your religion.
!Do whatever I said or you will suffer forever." Men who say that to women and act on it are, in ideal case, locked up in prison. Yet you worship such being. You worship an abuser.
What a loving god.
There is an actual proof that jail exists. There is no proof that hell/heaven/god exist except for the Bible. And you cannot prove Bible by saying that it's in the Bible. Even though I'm sure you'd like that.
Here's how it works in a nut shell.
We're all flawed as heck.
We need to pay for our sin, but we are unable to make the required payment, we just don't have enough.
Jesus came along and died for our sins. Thus, he made the payment for our sins on our behalf.
Its your choice to accept the payment for your sin or not. If you accept Jesus' offer of payment for your sin then you are saved. If you don't, well, hope you like BBQ.
Except that none of this would be our fault. HE made us like that. He COULD'VE not give a*****about the Adam/Eve thing, he COULD'VE made us be able ot pay for it. He chose not to because he's an abuser, because of the desire to punish. As you paint him, he is one big, horrible bully. If he was a real person, he'd be in jail by now.

reply from: Steph

Thank God I am a Catholic!
Just reading all this heresy is making me sick!

reply from: Rosalie

That doesn't make you a Catholic, that makes you a fanatic.

reply from: Shenanigans

Not quite. My objections to abortion is based on science and facts, not the fear of God kicking my arse.
Second, rape is morally repugnant regardless of a beleif in a god.
And thrid, if I didn't beleive in God, I'd go back to Uni, get a degree in chemistry then blow the snot out of every abortion clinic I could get near, not to metion snipe on a number of abortionists. I'd also manage to dump trucks full of faeces in there somewhere.
The cops would have to take me down in a hail of bullets if I didn't believe in a God, heaven and hell. I need to kow there is justice waiting on the otherside of death for those who slaughter the unborn, for the rapists, murderers, and other sick perverts out there. If there was no justice in the next world, I'd have to bring it to them in this one!

reply from: Shenanigans

I don't actually hold the belief of Adam and Eve actually existing - its a story used to explain creation to a bunch of illiterate goat herders in the desert. HOwever, for arguments sake, God gave us free will. Eve used that free will to do something God told her not to do.
Moral of the story, if the creator of all existance tells you not to do something. YOu don't do it.
ANd God's ways and thoughts are above ours, so your ramblings about Him being an abuser are just the amusing ramblings of someone who doesn't really know Him.

reply from: Rosalie

I don't actually hold the belief of Adam and Eve actually existing - its a story used to explain creation to a bunch of illiterate goat herders in the desert. HOwever, for arguments sake, God gave us free will. Eve used that free will to do something God told her not to do.
I absoutely get that. Let's assume the existence of God, Adam and Eve for now, ok?
My point was that God MADE them that way. He MADE them fallible. If he hadn't, the concept of free will would never exist, the concept of fallibility would never exist. Which basically means that God pre-determined all this.
I don't believe in Christian God. The point I was trying to make was that if you try to get someone to do something for you, believe in you or love you by threatening him, it's not a good way to go about it. Wouldn't youa gree?

reply from: Steph

"Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your god really does exist."
Good start.
"He MADE people like this, he KNEW what was going to happen and then he is trying to appear all good and wise and FORGIVE you if you fear him enough and if you are horrible enough to those who don't care about your religion. "
I suppose you also object to having free will? Interesting- as you so much tout wanting to have CHOICE. You of all people should believe in Free Will.
"!Do whatever I said or you will suffer forever." Men who say that to women and act on it are, in ideal case, locked up in prison. Yet you worship such being. You worship an abuser."
Not exactly. You are my child, so therefore you act like one. You dont have to stay in my household, you are free to go out on your own.
I will not keep you by force.
You can have your eternity where you choose.
Choose wisely, eternity is a long time to be wrong.
"What a loving god. "
So loving he will let you be seperated from him for eternity, because that is what you want. You seem dissatisfyed with getting what you ask for. This could be an indication of another problem, possibly treatable with medication.
"There is an actual proof that jail exists. There is no proof that hell/heaven/god exist except for the Bible. And you cannot prove Bible by saying that it's in the Bible. Even though I'm sure you'd like that. "
The Church came before the Bible, and we can prove the Church, so try again.
Your batting average is not very good so far.
"Obey me or burn?"
Burn with shame, when you see what your eternity will be.
"Except that none of this would be our fault. HE made us like that. He COULD'VE not give a*****about the Adam/Eve thing, he COULD'VE made us be able ot pay for it. He chose not to because he's an abuser, because of the desire to punish. As you paint him, he is one big, horrible bully. If he was a real person, he'd be in jail by now."
Denying free will? Everything you do with full knowledge and consent of the will is your fault if its faulty. Stop whining!

reply from: Rosalie

Nice try, fanatic. Maybe when you drop your condescending atittude and accept the fact that people have the right to have beliefs different from yours and that your religoin is not superior to any other, I might actually enter this discussion with you.

reply from: Steph

Rosalie, you really are in need of basic theology 1O1.
"Except that none of this would be our fault. HE made us like that. He COULD'VE not give a*****about the Adam/Eve thing, he COULD'VE made us be able ot pay for it. He chose not to because he's an abuser, because of the desire to punish. As you paint him, he is one big, horrible bully. If he was a real person, he'd be in jail by now."
You would prefer to have been created as a robot? Clearly you were not, as you defy and blaspheme the way you do. Do you feel your parents should be put in jail because they told you not to touch a hot stove? Should you have been allowed to find out for yourself without their intervention? So, of course God has intervened for you. He went to Cross, and gave you an invitation to his household.
You however, have your own plan.
Satan did too. His plan has an end. Not sure where you think yours is going.
"My point was that God MADE them that way. He MADE them fallible. If he hadn't, the concept of free will would never exist, the concept of fallibility would never exist. Which basically means that God pre-determined all this. "
He did not pre-determine man's use or abuse of free will. That I think, is Calvin's view. You must have had a christian with new teachings and innovations tell you about God. No wonder. Or the all favorite of mine, use of personal interpretation.
We can see the fruits of that excercise..
"I don't believe in Christian God. The point I was trying to make was that if you try to get someone to do something for you, believe in you or love you by threatening him, it's not a good way to go about it. Wouldn't youa gree?"
Would that God you believe in be YOU perhaps?

reply from: micah

So then god isn't all-knowing?
Yes, according to the biblical interpretation. That is, humans were created imperfectly, yet commanded to be perfect. When humans do not act perfectly, god uses eternal torture as a punishment. But if Yahweh can torture Jesus instead for a while, this appeases him. Yahweh and Jesus are the solution to their own problem.

reply from: Steph

Why would God not be all knowing, by allowing free will?
He sees you diving off a cliff. So what?
You did it.
If your life here was the end all, I could see your concern.
Temporal things, are of no consequence execpt to those who are carnal.

reply from: Shenanigans

Try to see it from our persepective, for a moment, the Pro-Life persepective.
To us the human uterine enitity, embryo, foetus whatever the hell you want to call it, we beleive it is a living human person, a living human person who deserves the utmost respect and protection from the law.
At this time it isn't being given this protection.
To us innocent human children are being murdered every day.
If you were in our shoes, wouldn't you want them protected, wouldn't you want to do everythig in your power to help them?
That's why I understand where those who destory clinics and kill abortionists are coming from they are at the point where they have no hope for justice.
Me, I beleive that justice waits on the other side of death for everyone, for me, for you, for every woman who aborts, for every abortionists and every politican, EVERYONE, from Hitler to Mother Tereasea, everyone will face justice for the ills they've committed in their lives.
If abortion is never banned, if the unborn will always be the target of selfish slaughter, then fine, but to me those responsible will oneday stand before God and have to answer for the gravity of their sins. They will be judged.
As a christain, it is not my place to carry out the punishment, they are committing sins, but it is not my place to dole out an arse whupping., That's God's job.
If I harm those abortionists, I will answer for that. Both to man's justice and to God's justice - of course, its only God's justice that concerns me in the grand scheme of things.
To me, we are fighting a war in the spiritual and its not worthwhile to th ecause to attack the flesh.
As awesome as a mushroom cloud rising over an aboriton mill would be, God would be super mad at me if I threw the switch.

reply from: Shenanigans

So then god isn't all-knowing?
Imagine for a moment you're in a high rise. YOu look out one window and see a car driving at 100Kph towards an intersection with a red light. You look out the next window and see another car at the same speed, hauling arse towards the same intersection.
You know they are going to smash into each other. You know it will be a nasty crash. YOu know its going to happen. There's nothing you can do to stop it because you cannot reach down from the high rise and slam on the bracks of those cars.
Knowign somethig is going to happen and actually pre-determining it are two totally different things.

reply from: faithman

So if you became convinced that there was no camera in the sky watching our every movement, you would have no problem with killing a fetus or raping a woman?
Not at all. If what I belive weren't true, then I would be a humanist. The humanist manifesto declares that eternity for them is found in the face of their children. Why would I want eternaty cut off by abortion?!!! A proabort humanist blasphemes their own belief system.

reply from: Shenanigans

Freedom of religion is an amazing thing. It shouldn't be taken from anyone. People of all faiths must protect the overall right of individuals to have this right.
People who leave Islam in Muslim countries can be executed.
People in China aren't allowed to practise certain faiths unless its a "state sponsored church".
NO one, anywhere, in any capacity should have the right to tell someone what to beleive or what not to beleive.

reply from: micah

So basically if God wouldn't punish you, you would kill and rape people?

reply from: micah

You were suggesting that god didn't know everything that would happen the second he created the universe. Either god intended for evil to happen and created it as such, and thus he is unloving. Or god didn't intend for evil to happen, in which case he isn't all knowing and all powerful. You can't have it both ways.

reply from: Shenanigans

Only evil people who aren't going to face human justice. Kind of like The Punisher.
And I wouldn't rape people cos I'm a chick.

reply from: Steph

You were suggesting that god didn't know everything that would happen the second he created the universe. Either god intended for evil to happen and created it as such, and thus he is unloving. Or god didn't intend for evil to happen, in which case he isn't all knowing and all powerful. You can't have it both ways.
God permitted evil.
I am not suggesting anything- I am stating it.

reply from: micah

So then isn't god himself evil? For example, suppose a woman is raped and a crowd of onlookers stands by and watches and does nothing as the woman pleads for help. Is the crowd not guilty?

reply from: faithman

So then isn't god himself evil? For example, suppose a woman is raped and a crowd of onlookers stands by and watches and does nothing as the woman pleads for help. Is the crowd not guilty?
Why do the bortheads hate gays so much that they want them made exstinked by abortion? Why are they against womb gay rights and PLAGAL?

reply from: faithman

You were suggesting that god didn't know everything that would happen the second he created the universe. Either god intended for evil to happen and created it as such, and thus he is unloving. Or god didn't intend for evil to happen, in which case he isn't all knowing and all powerful. You can't have it both ways.
God permitted evil.
I am not suggesting anything- I am stating it.
God created evil. Isaiah 45:7

reply from: Shenanigans

If a volcano was erupting and the lava spewed down the mountain towards a city and God reached down and stopped the lava, who would not beleive God existed, who would not worship him?
God cannot interefer in such matters as it will negate the need for faith, choice based on duress is not choice.
The crowd of onlookers can easily intervene, they will not negate the woman's faith or beleif in said people as she already knows them and sees them.
And yes, the crowd is guilty - they could even be part of the rape!

reply from: faithman

Why do the bortheads hate gays so much that they want them made exstinked by abortion? Why are they against womb gay rights and PLAGAL?
So then isn't god himself evil? For example, suppose a woman is raped and a crowd of onlookers stands by and watches and does nothing as the woman pleads for help. Is the crowd not guilty?
Why do the bortheads hate gays so much that they want them made exstinked by abortion? Why are they against womb gay rights and PLAGAL?

reply from: churchmouse

You obviously have never read the book of Revelation.
There will be a hell, an actual place where people will go that have rejected Christ.
Some people think its in poor taste if they tell someone they will go to hell unless they accept Christ. But what did Christ do? He told people the TRUTH. Why would He want to do this? If eveyone goes to heaven then Jesus died for nothing, the Bible is a hoax and we all have been duped.
Reject hell and you reject Christ Himself.
I just read an excellent book on this called, Hell?Yes!, by Robert Jeffrey.
He stated that 13% of the 1,850 verses in the NT that record the words of Christ deal with the subject of eternal judgment and hell. Christ had more to say about hell than heaven. You can not dismiss what He said about hell. If He was wrong about hell then that disqualifies Him from being the Son of God. It means that He mislead people.
But if we accept what Christ said and believe Him, its impossible to dismiss what he said would happen to unbelievers.
You think all the stories in the Bible were parables?
Let's see what Christ said about hell. Take the story of Lazarus and the rich man for example. And whether or not you believe it actually happened or its a parable.......this story reveals some truths. Jesus taught that hell is an actual place. In fact He used the word Gehenna (eleven times) which is a word that means hell. Christ uses Hades to describe the temporary waiting place for those that await the great white throne judgement.
Now what about heaven?
Heaven is an actual place too. Christ said "I go prepare a PLACE for you." Now the Greek word for place is "topos", which means a geographical location. It is the eternal destination for those that trust Christ. And in the same way Jesus taught that hell was an actual destination rather than a state of mind.
Jesus said, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46.
You cant have some people going to an actual place called heaven and the other people going to a state of mind.
Christ also described hell as a place of suffering forever. Eternal punishment.
Sin always demands punishment. Nahum 1:3 also clearly states that the Lord "will by no means leave the guilty unpunished." The cross reminds us that God has zero tolerance for sin.

reply from: micah

Okay, let's suppose some of what you say is right. Let's suppose there is a hell, and those that don't worship the right god will go there. So it's god's multiple-choice exam. What are the odds that the right religion just happens to be the one you were born into?

reply from: faithman

Why do the bortheads hate gays so much that they want them made exstinked by abortion? Why are they against womb gay rights and PLAGAL?

reply from: Shenanigans

Well, we do have the better deal. There's not a lot of religions that are as pointed as to the reality of hell as Christainity. Sure, there are other religions that have forms of punishment, but they dont' include accepting Jesus to get out of it, and living good lives like what a Christain would live would get us in.
And if reincarnation or something like that exists, well, so what, we spend a few life times as bugs or dogs or whatever.

reply from: churchmouse

Well what happens if it is right and you reject it? After you die you wont get to change your mind. Its to late then.
I was born to Christian parents. I became a Christian when I was born again and accepted Christ on my own. Its something no one else can do for you.
Well I am not going into all the reasons why I believe. I have studied the scriptures, read the Koran, read about all word religions and I believe Christianity is the real deal.
The purpose of faith or religion is to answer lifes questions. And Christianity does that where other religions do not.
Well I take it seriously. Where will you be if the Bible and what Christ says comes true?

reply from: Shenanigans

In Heaven, hanging out with God Almighty and our Lord and Saviour Jesus.
And it wont' come true because it is TRUE, can't become something that it already is! I was just being faectious.

reply from: yoda

Gee, FMan, it looks like micah doesn't want to discuss why he thinks it's okay to kill gays in the womb.....

reply from: nancyu

Only evil people who aren't going to face human justice. Kind of like The Punisher.
And I wouldn't rape people cos I'm a chick.
Have you ever seen the movie "The Boondock Saints"? Great movie.

reply from: churchmouse

Moderate? What does that mean? You mean the Christians that dont live according to God? They water down the gospel message, particularly the sin issue.
Oh ok, I misunderstood what you meant, sorry.
There is a hell, God says so.
There is no point you are right.
You mean those that have denied Christ will not get eternal life.
Could you explain this a bit further......"Traditional Christianity is nothing but pagan ideas and superstitions."
So is the virgin birth, resurrection, all just lies?
I am simply posting what the bible says. How am I bullying anyone? Why do you feel defensive?
I love God and I love people. And I do not want anyone to go to hell. Jesus did not either that is why he talked more about hell than any other subject. If you love people you want them saved. And if you are not saved then you are not going to heaven.
To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You should fear Him.
I throw those words around because they are words God spoke.
I do not hide behind my faith. I happily share it like God commands that I do.
You have blasphemed God and you will pay one day for the words you speak here.
God is loving and He is just and everyone will be judged, there will be no place you can hide. I hope and pray your heart changes.
He gave us free will. God is not making your decisions for you, you are. And it will be your decisions that will determine where you will live for all eternity.
If you are punished then you will deserve what you get. God is just.
I feel so sorry for people who think they can live without God. Their whole lives are shaped by their own human wants and needs. Such a sad worldview.
Shenanigans said,
You should fear HIm, you are a sinner. Abortionists and those killing the unborn are sinners, but everyone sins. And the same God that will judge them will judge you as well.
Sometimes we cant see justice done in this life. God is in control and He will take care of everything. We want to see things done fast. Its not about things getting done in our time......God has his own timing.
I am curious Shenanigans how you determine what is true and what isnt, in the Bible. How do you pick it apart and determine the real truth?
If you think Adam and Eve is far fetched and really didn't happen.......then maybe Jesus never walked on water or healed the sick or raised the dead. Maybe Mary wasnt a virgin, and maybe Jesus didnt really rise from the grave. I mean what stories are true for you?

reply from: churchmouse

He is all-knowning. He allows us to make decisions but He knows how we will decide, before we do it.
There is only one sin that keeps you from heaven and being with God for all eternity. That sin is denying Christ. You make that decision and you decide your own fate. All the information you need is here on earth and you only have this life to decide what will happen.
That is why Christ came. He came to save the lost. If everyone goes to heaven why did Christ come?
Of course we should try to be like Christ in all ways. But that is impossible. We are sinners and we make mistakes. Like a parent disciplines his children, so God disciplines his children. I do not believe that we can lost salvation. I do not believe God is an Indian giver. If he took it back it wouldnt have been a free gift in the first place. When believers sin, God punishes.
But our hope is in God and God will be just with those that need it. We might not see it but we know based on Gods promises that it will happen. "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess."
Abortion is horrible, but killing is not the answer because that to is sin. And sin separates us from God.
Yes they do. And I have the right to feel my faith is superior. I do not believe that all others are truth.
No, no more than people who do not believe in God would do it. The godless only have themselves to answer to. They believe there is no punishment after death. So if ya get caught on earth then youre punish here.
We are born with a sense of what is right and wrong. Rape and murder are considered wrong all over the world. These acts are punished. So why would a Christian go out and murder any more than a godless person would?
No God is not evil. He allows free will and that involves stepping back and allowing bad things to happen.
James 1:13 states "Let no one say when he is tempted. 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone."

"Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow."
We know that God is not a God of confusion (1 Cor 14:33)
Psalm 18:30 tells us "As for God, His way is blameless" and "Thou art not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with Thee (Psalm 5:4)
"The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and kind in all His deeds." (Psalm 145:17)
Shenanigans you gave an excellent answer in regards to micahs example of rape.

reply from: faithman

Gee, FMan, it looks like micah doesn't want to discuss why he thinks it's okay to kill gays in the womb.....
How many of the 50 million slaughtered do you think were womb gays? Why do the bortheads on this forum hate womb gays so much, that they will fasilitate gay genocide by abortion?

reply from: Shenanigans

It is a truely awesome movie indeed. Though I haven't seen it in quite some time, and havne't been able to get it on DVD yet in New Zealand.
Just saw Friday 13th, that was awesomeness all round.

reply from: micah

I would love to visit New Zealand someday. I have heard it is really beautiful.

reply from: Banned Member

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, that yields its fruit in its season,and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; for the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

reply from: yoda

Hmmm...... at about 10% of the population, that would put it at about 5 million or so..... but if a gene test was developed to detect a "gay gene" then that might go up to about 30% of all abortions.... something closer to 15 million, maybe?

reply from: yoda

I wouldn't advise you to, if Shenanigans sees you, a new proabort there, she might hurl faeces at you.....

reply from: faithman

I would love to visit New Zealand someday. I have heard it is really beautiful.
To bad all those womb gays you helped kill by abortion won't ever get the chance to see it.

reply from: micah

I wouldn't advise you to, if Shenanigans sees you, a new proabort there, she might hurl faeces at you.....
Eloquent as always.
New Zealand has roughly the same abortion rate as the US. Apparently abortion is legal there, except when it isn't.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, but you'd be a "new bortie"....... and a great target!

reply from: Rosalie

Such actions are inexcusable. What you are condoning or attempting to excuse here is terrorism.
Also I wonder if you are aware that abortion is not a new thing. It had been happening for centuries. Only it was much more dangerous.
I might believe he exists but I still wouldn't worship him. I disagree with that religion on many levels and I have no desire to worship your god.
The new one? Is it worth it? I'm a little iffy about re-makes of old classics most of the time.

reply from: Rosalie

No, I'm really not. I really love it when fundies come to me and tell me that I need to learn about their religion - I have some news for you: I know more than I ever wanted to know about your religion and I reject it BECAUSE I know a lot about it not because I'm ignorant.
Sorry to burst your fundie bubble.
If we had been created without free-will, we wouldn't know that free will is possible and therefore we wouldn't miss not having free will.
I don't adhere to your beliefs which I find repulsive.
Kindly respect my right not to follow your horrible religion. I respect your right to follow it and expect the same in return. Freedom of religion, that's how we roll here in the United States of America.
Waaaaaah, you don't follow my religion, you're a goddless heathen and Satan's whore. Yeah, I heard it all before, fundie. Don't bother. Or do and amuse me some more.
If he didn't, then his plan didn't work and he is therefore not omnipotent.
Nope, but a fundie like you wouldn't understand that.

reply from: lukesmom

Snicker...how fast can you say that sentence??? HEHEHEHE

reply from: lukesmom

Well we agree! Killing unborn children IS more than repulsive. YOU can HAVE your killing beliefs. I will have my moral beliefs and integrety intact. Now, slither back under the scum of your own making, Rosemary...ahhh Roz.

reply from: Rosalie

Snicker...how fast can you say that sentence??? HEHEHEHE
You don't understand that sentence, do you? Sorry but I'm not going to dumb it down so retarded yokels like yourself could understand it.
Well we agree! Killing unborn children IS more than repulsive. YOU can HAVE your killing beliefs. I will have my moral beliefs and integrety intact. Now, slither back under the scum of your own making, Rosemary...ahhh Roz.
You are making up hysterical babbling that has nothing to do with the original post. Oh wait, that's what you do all the time.

reply from: yoda

Proaborts worship killing like it was their holy rite.

reply from: faithman

Like you troll for womb gays to kill?

reply from: lukesmom

More niceties from the butt nuggett world. Keep on Roz, you're doing the prolife movement a favor!

reply from: Rosalie

More niceties from the butt nuggett world. Keep on Roz, you're doing the prolife movement a favor!
So you admit you are too stupid to comprehend it.
I don't think anyone is surprised, you little disgusting yokel.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You quoted Psalm 1, one of my favorites. We must mediate night and day on God's law. We must delight in God's law. Those who break the law will perish. Those who obey the law shall live. The law is summed up in this, "You shall love God and you shall love your neighbor as yourself." Anyone who does not love shall not inherit eternal life. No murderer has any inheritance.

reply from: Shenanigans

Jesus was Lord, he could pop corn in a freezer if he wanted to.
Adam and Eve was a story cooked up by Rabbis to explan creatioism. There are actually two creation stories, one written in about 400BC that was more "academic" for the Priests' benefit, and then one around 1AD written for the people, over the years they have merged into what we have today.
Man was created via evolution. God caused this evolution to happen. Fossil records and science tells us that (well, not the God bit, the evolution bit).
Mary was a virgin because God deemed it that way. God just used IVF.
Jesus rose from the grave because He was the Son of God.
There's a saying, I think Gallalio said it, "I do not beleive the same God who endowed us with sense and reason intended us to forgo their use".
TO think the bible is right on Adam and Eve is spitting in the face of science. TO belive there was a world wide flood is a lot of crap. Otherwise why aren't their any records of it, both geographically and anthropologically from other cultures in other parts of the world - other then the middle east. Science does prove that there was a big arse tsumani at the time the great flood apparently happened.
Second - the bible says "don't commit incest", so how did Adam and Even spawn 6 billion without a bit of fiddling in the family? How did Noah and the post flood suriviors? Did God just make some new people to get passed that loop hole?
Johna and the whale? Two words - Stomach acid.
There are certain parts of the bible that are BS, that flout science and reason. Most of this is in the Old Testament - and there's even sections about God commanding people to slash open the bellies of pregnant women and dash the heads of the babies against rocks... o_O'
As Christains our faith is based on the teachigns of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, our interest should only stem from the New Testament on. The Jewish holy book was simply tacked onto the bible to give Christians a little more weight in arguing that their religion was worthwhile - the Romans may have treated the Jews poorly but they still respected their faith due to it having been around for a good few centuries to a 1,000 years.
God wouldn't have given us such intelligence if he didn't want us to use it! And even if the bible is entirely true, everything from Adams rib being used to create Eve to some big flood wiping every man woman and child from the globe (except for a boat full of animals and NOah) then it doesn't matter if I don't beleive it becuase Jesus said he's the way the truth and the light no one can come to the father except through him. Jesus didn't say "You better beleive this archaic bullocks or you burn!"
And that's aother thing... seriously? Two of every kind? So how did Noah get his hands on Moas, and Kiwis and other animals from other parts of the planet, like New Zealand and Aussie and Japan?
Seriously, there's faith and then there's blatant stupidity.

reply from: Shenanigans

Oh, it is, seriously! Its spectacular!
What's really great is you can go hang out in the sticks and not get eaten by a bear or something!
We have great weather, yet you can still go get a good dose of snow or a good dose of humidity. The people are friendly, the tourist spots don't aim to bleed you dry and we're a good bunch all round.
Plus, we're unlikley to be a target in a nuclear war given our nuclear free stance!
[/plug plug plug]

reply from: Shenanigans

Apparently its slightly higher.
Population of about 4 million, 18,500 or so abortions a year. My math is too lazy to work out the %.
But its legal for "exceptions" but people jsut use the "mental health" exception to get it.
And it'll probably stay at its current legal loop holeness given that if were fully legalised, women would have to fork out the few thousand it cost, under the "mental health" BS, the govt. pays seeing its a "health service".

reply from: Shenanigans

There's a saying... one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It all depends on which side of the battle line you're on.
As it is, I really don't like the idea of committing acts of violence.
I've studied history and classics. Its been around as long as ladies have been getting pregnant, and even if it were banned tomorrow, it'd be happening till the last human life farted out of existance.
I wasn't sure how they were going to pull it off, I only just saw the poster when I walked through the movie cinema, havin gnothing else to do, I went and saw and was impressed. I avoid most remakes, but this one wasn't trying to be a remake, its sort of a follow on, but well plotted - well, as well plotted as movies about guys in hockey masks running around with machettes hacking people up can be.,

reply from: faithman

Such actions are inexcusable. What you are condoning or attempting to excuse here is terrorism.
Also I wonder if you are aware that abortion is not a new thing. It had been happening for centuries. Only it was much more dangerous.
I might believe he exists but I still wouldn't worship him. I disagree with that religion on many levels and I have no desire to worship your god.
The new one? Is it worth it? I'm a little iffy about re-makes of old classics most of the time.
You must be a really really old borthead classic. You never have anything new to say. Maybe Molly Yard's twin? If it talks like a hatful ole death scanc, it must be one.


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