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The Rights of the Father

by: 4given

By Tommy De Seno
Attorney/Writer
"The emphasis must not be on the right to abortion, but on the right to privacy and reproductive control.
" - Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
Today marks another anniversary of Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme Court decision which overturned all state laws that would stop a woman from having an abortion in the first trimester.
While the topic I have chosen here, "Roe vs. Wade and the Rights of the Father" may sound interesting, actually there is nothing to write about. There are no such rights.
A father can't stop an abortion if he wants his child, nor can he insist upon an abortion if he doesn't want his child.
This situation should trouble everyone, not from a religious point of view, not from a personal choice point of view, but rather from an Equal Rights point of view.
Equal Rights for all people is difficult for any nation to achieve peaceably, because it requires the group in greater power to yield to the group of lesser power. This is usually accomplished only through war. Our own Civil War is a perfect example of equality being created by force, instead of reason and fairness, as it should have been.
This week as I watched and read opinions about Roe vs. Wade, I could find nothing, not a word among millions that addressed a father's relationship to his unborn child.
Two weeks ago I tried an experiment in anticipation of writing this column. I wrote a column about gun control and posited that only men should vote on the issue of guns. The logic (rather illogic) used by me was that men buy guns the most, men are called upon to use them most (when a burglar enters our home) and we get shot the most.
Why shouldn't men have the only voice on the issue?
I wanted to gauge people's reactions to the thought that in America we would ever give more weight to one person's view than another's because that person can show the issue affects him more.
As I walked around my city during these past two weeks, I was accosted by people who wanted to take me to task for suggesting that women lose their right to vote on an issue just because they may be affected by it less than men. Some pointed out, quite rightly, that even if there was an issue that didn't affect women at all, as equal members of society, they should still have a voice in all decisions America makes.
Quite right indeed.
So where are all these well-reasoned arguments when it comes to a father and his unborn child? Why do people who have Equal Protection claims at the ready on other issues suddenly suffer constitutional amnesia when abortion is mentioned?
During every abortion a father's child dies, so fathers are affected. There is much written about the post-abortion depression of women. Nothing is mentioned about the father. A good father knows his role is protector of his child. His depression must be crippling when the law allows him no chance to save his child from death by abortion.
In the Roe vs. Wade decision the Supreme Court found a privacy right in the 14th Amendment, which doesn't have the word "privacy" in it. Then they found that the privacy right had a "penumbra" containing other rights (penumbra means the shadowy area at the edge of a shadow). In that shadow they found the abortion right. That bit of mental gymnastics aside, it wasn't the most terrible part of the decision.
This was:
The Court said that a woman my not be mentally ready to handle a child at this stage in her life, or the child might interfere with her career path, and that is so important to her that the State has no right to make a law against it.
So I ask today: Might a father find himself mentally not ready for a child? Might a father find a child inconvenient to his career path? If these are the rights women get to protect by choosing abortion, why not allow fathers "the right to choose" also?
I propose a "father's abortion." Let a father petition the Court to terminate his own parental rights to his child before or after the child's birth. He would be rid of his obligations to that child in favor of his mental health and finances, the same as a woman does when she aborts.
As Justice Ginsburg said in the quote that appears at the top of this FOX Forum post, the emphasis is not abortion, rather an individual's right to control his own reproduction.
If we protect such a right for women, can we constitutionally deny it to men?
I propose this not because it would be in any way good. I propose it because constitutional Equal Protection demands it, and to show the danger created when judges destroy democracy by making up laws that don't exist.
"Father's Abortion." It's high time for a test case.
Any father with such a case can call me and I'll take it for free.
Read more from Tommy De Seno at www. JustifiedRight. com.

reply from: JRH

I agree that is is unfair that if a woman decides to have the child that the father can be forced to pay child support. It is awful that a woman gets to choose whether she has parental obligations but a man has them no matter what he chooses. Those laws should be struck down at once. If a woman chooses to keep and care for a child (
which are things she does not have to do) she should pay for it.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, abortion has just about made a mockery of the very concept of a caring, protecting father. He's history, as far as the rabid proabort left is concerned.

reply from: Banned Member

Ironic that people should talk about how fathers are often the cause of abortions, forcing women to the abortion clinics to have their children aborted and yet when fathers try to stop an abortion, and stand up for the life of their unborn child, they are promptly told to mind their own damn business!

reply from: Banned Member

If you are purely and unaffectedly pro-choice as you claim, than why not?
If one or the other, man or woman, is not entitled to kill by their own choice, than surely neither are right to choose when another human person will die.
Unless you believe that these 1.5 million children who are aborted every year are conceived virginally, than why shouldn't men and women both have the right to abortion? BOTH have the EQUAL right to CHOOSE?
Do you think that abortion was about a woman's right to choose, or the mandate of an evil court to pronounce a state sanctioned means of population control of undesirable conceptions?

reply from: Banned Member

Women do not become pregnant alone. Women and men, become parents, TOGETHER! It is THEIR pregnancy!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No it is not. It is THEIR CHILD, but HER pregnancy. The man is not pregnant. HER body is pregnant.

reply from: micah

There is some truth in that. A woman who has a husband who is prepared to care for the child is probably a lot less likely to abort.

reply from: scopia19822

So Micah we should just encourage more men to be deadbeats? A man deposits his seed in a woman and helps bring forth a new life is just as responsible for that child welfare as the mother who births him/her. The law favors a woman and deprives fathers of his rights to protect his preborn child, yet many men also use abortion as a legal loophole to get out of being responisble. A man should have some say on whether or not his unborn child is aborted and he is also morally and legally obligated to support that child no matter what. Very simple it takes 2 to make a baby, morally both are responisble for that child equally.

reply from: sk1bianca

it's selfish to deny one's right to be a dad (especially by having his baby dismembered and thrown in the trash). it's like asuming men are just sex objects with no feelings. men also love their children, even if they don't become pregnant. i don't know why some people find this so unbelievable .
i think that if the woman doesn't want the child but the man does, then she should just give birth and let the father take care of him. i guess the thing that many women forget when they have an abortion is that they didn't conceive that child alone. even if it's inside her body, it's also HIS child (biologically, just as much as it is hers).

reply from: micah

I've wondered if getting rid of child support would increase or decrease abortion. On one hand, the prospect of paying child support probably encourages many fathers to pressure their girlfriends to abort. On the other hand, if women know there will be little economic support, they may be more likely to have an abortion.

reply from: JRH

The laws are blatantly unfair after the child is born. If the woman wants to give it up she does not have to pay anything and the father can raise it if he wants. If a man wants to give it up he's out of luck because the woman can keep it and make him pay. That's bull****

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The laws are blatantly unfair after the child is born. If the woman wants to give it up she does not have to pay anything and the father can raise it if he wants. If a man wants to give it up he's out of luck because the woman can keep it and make him pay. That's bull****
I completely agree. The problem is that child-support laws try to legislate morality; the morality that because it took a man and a woman to make the baby, they should both pay to raise it. But the woman VOLUNTARILY keeps the child - the man is FORCED to pay for it. That's the difference and that's why the law is not fair. I think men should have a legal way to sign away their rights as fathers before the child is born, and perhaps a little bit after birth in case the woman tries to hide it. If the woman can give it away for adoption the man should have the same right. Hell, right now she can KILL it without his permission; what's the fairness in FORCING him to pay for it!?

reply from: nancyu

(cool, another one for my collection)
No one has the right to take the life of an innocent human being, ever.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I think women should depend on income from other places than their sucky ex-boyfriends. I think there should be enough aid available that "money" isn't even a reason women would consider abortion. Because even young women who are married or in monogamous relationships abort because of money issues.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I completely agree to this as well. I feel the father should have first rights to the child if the woman is giving it up for adoption.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
But Ro-Ro, how could you deny this poor man the right to control this woman and her child? Isn't he entitled to make those decisions? After all, he IS the father:
Lol. Ro-Ro; that's cute! You realise by now that I don't feel any other person has the right to decide what happens to the woman and child aside from the same legal "restrictions" placed on everyone else in the country: murder and abuse is wrong. So as long as she doesn't murder or abuse the child in-utero, it's up to her what she does while she's pregnant. She has complete freedom to do whatever she wants.
And if she wants to give up the child, the father has first "dibs" (unless of course there's reason to think he'd be a bad dad, but that should always be investigated anyway).

reply from: gilleiosa

Why? If the government stance on abortion was that it was illegal a man COULD NOT force a woman to have an abortion, but COULD have her stopped from procuring one illegaly if he knew about it. This is where the break down in understanding is for pro-choice people. They want to be able to do away with "problem" babies so badly that they cannot envision a world where abortion is illegal.

reply from: Redbelt

Because of the biology of the whole birth process, it's a touchy subject, but anything short of a child being transplanted into a willing father, it's ultimately up to the mother. It's not fair but few things are.

reply from: yoda

It's not fair, but you're okay with it anyway?
You're okay with innocent babies being electively slaughtered? You don't want to see the law changed to stop that?

reply from: scopia19822

"I completely agree to this as well. I feel the father should have first rights to the child if the woman is giving it up for adoption."
They already do unless they are deemed unfit by the court. In most states an adoption cannot be finalized without the birthfathers consent. Many adoptions have been nullified when the birthfather came forward and said that he didnt know that his child was given up for adoption or that he didnt consent to the adoption, didnt sign away his rights, hence his parental rights were violated. Sometimes the father is able to get custody of the child. I diasgree when you say that child support is legislating morality, maybe so but legally both parents are responsible for the welfare of their children. Now many non custodial mothers have to pay child support to the father if he has custody.

reply from: micah

Are you always this dim? At least the other pro-lifers can form arguments of their own instead of muttering slogans and one-word answers.
(cool, another one for my collection)
No one has the right to take the life of an innocent human being, ever.

reply from: carolemarie

The father has to be held liable for child support even if he wants it dead. Otherwise men could force women to abort.
I do agree it is really one sided. Abortion law doesn't consider that it takes two to create a baby. And when the interest of the parties conflict, the courts have reasoned that possession is the overriding principle The baby is the property of the mother until it is born. So since the fetus resides inside of the mother, it is her choice.
I can't see a realistic way to make it fair, unless we simply ban abortion. That way the new life takes presedent over the wishes of the man and the woman.

reply from: scopia19822

"I can't see a realistic way to make it fair, unless we simply ban abortion. That way the new life takes presedent over the wishes of the man and the woman."
I agree with CM. Abortion lets the mother take the easy way out instead of being responsible. Not making a man support his child does the same thing. Its about time that both mom and dad be made to stand up and be adults. Adults take care of their children and take responsibilty for their actions.

reply from: micah

It almost sounds like you want the parents to be punished.

reply from: scopia19822

"It almost sounds like you want the parents to be punished. ''
Its called being responsible for their children. If you make a child you're legally and morally obligated to take care of your children.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I just don't think it's fair; though it's a little more fair if non-custodial mothers have to pay too.

reply from: micah

The way to correct the unfair problem is to increase the rights for the father, not decrease the rights for the mother.

reply from: scopia19822

"I just don't think it's fair; though it's a little more fair if non-custodial mothers have to pay too."
You dont have children yet, but when/if you do and God forbid you find yourself being a single parent even if you have a good job chances are you are still going to want/need that child support from the father. I have no respect male or female for a deadbeat who refuses to support their children. Barring rape both parties made their choice to prospective parenthood when they chose to lay down with one another even with protection. Too many people dont realize that sex is a serious matter and with that pleasure/freedom comes consequences and responibilties.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't know; it just seems underhanded to me, and I find it abhorrent in an almost archaic way to think that women cannot fend for their children without a "man" to help her. I think THAT'S a major part of it for me. It's not that it's just sexist towards the man, but it's sexist towards the woman!!

reply from: carolemarie

The way to correct the unfair problem is to increase the rights for the father, not decrease the rights for the mother.
How can you do that when the parents want different things? dad wants the baby mom doesn't. We let dad make mom have the baby and give it to him? what if after it is born mom wants it?
What if mom wants the baby and dad doesn't. do we make her get an abortion?
there is no way to make this fair.

reply from: nancyu

YOU LIKE THESE ARGUMENTS AGAINST ABORTION? FUNNY, BECAUSE THERE ARE NO ARGUMENTS AGAINST ABORTION HERE.

reply from: nancyu

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING.
EVER.

reply from: lycan

The way to correct the unfair problem is to increase the rights for the father, not decrease the rights for the mother.
How can you do that when the parents want different things? dad wants the baby mom doesn't. We let dad make mom have the baby and give it to him? what if after it is born mom wants it?
What if mom wants the baby and dad doesn't. do we make her get an abortion?
there is no way to make this fair.
Unfortunately the way things are set up practically pushes toward abortion. A woman can have an abortion without even the father's knowledge, but she cannot carry the pregnancy full-term without the father's knowledge unless she moves away. Likewise in many states a minor can have an abortion without her parent's knowledge but she can't carry the baby full term without their knowledge. Thus husbands, boyfriends (or sex predators as the case may be), and parents can force women and girls to have abortions.

reply from: micah

You are saying because a few women might be forced to have abortions, all women should be denied their reproductive rights to prevent this?

reply from: scopia19822

"I don't know; it just seems underhanded to me, and I find it abhorrent in an almost archaic way to think that women cannot fend for their children without a "man" to help her. I think THAT'S a major part of it for me. It's not that it's just sexist towards the man, but it's sexist towards the woman!!"
It not a matter of whether or not women can fend for their children without a man. Women do that everyday, some by choice, other by circumstance. Children deserve to have both parents being parents to them even if mom and dad arent together. Any shrink worth their salt will tell you that children fare best in 2 parent homes. If thats not possible they still do better to have both parents in their lives. The non custodial parent should pay support, but that not where their responsibilties end. A parent provides both financial and emotional support. Its about being there for ones child. Its about being responsible for the life one helped create and bring into the world.

reply from: Rosalie

That'ss sexist and it IS propaganda. What children actually deserve is unconditional love and being wanted. That's the most important thing.
I don't think I have the right to have BOTH parents, I don't think a child is automatically MISSING something when they don't have both parents or when the parents are of the same gender. Theses are archaic, sexist standards and I reject them.
The two-parent home is the best thing is mostly because of the fact that 2 people usually have more means than one person.
You cannot force someone to love someone else. You cannot force anyone to care about someone because it is not about fulfilling your 'duty', it's about feelings and they cannot be simulated.
I'd rather take care of my kids all alone than knowing that their father is in it out of some warped sense of obligation. My kids deserve to be loved unconditionally. I am not accepting any less for them.

reply from: Rosalie

Only women are capable of getting pregnant and that puts them, their bodies and health and sometimes lives at risk. Releasing sperm is incomparable to what the woman goes through during pregnancy and childbirth.
It has nothing to do with selfishness or objectivization of men.
One production of sperm does not make anyone a father. As long as it's women gestating and giving birth and having their lives and their health directly affected/endangered by being pregnant, it will always be their call.
Quite frankly, if all I had to do to conceive a child would be release my sperm, I would never EVER think that I have any right to call the shots during the pregnancy/childbirth.
It's just beyond me that someone would think they have any rights when they are in no way physically involved/affected by the entire gestation process/birth.
Then again, I immensely respect other people, their bodily autonomy, their rights etc so I guess that's the difference.
Not true. YOU say that there is an obligation to continue the pregnancy - but there is not. And if someone doesn't want to take care of their newborn child, they can always put it up for adoption. There are choices. Parenthood is NOT nor should ever be a punishment or a consequence. It's sick to think about something THAT huge this way.
I have a child and I agree with Liberal on this one.
This is why people always SHOULD take into consideration what would happen IF... (if my partner left me/died/for some reason it would have to be just me taking care of the child).
It's not an ideal scenario but little things in life go ideally. That's why I value independence, that's why I think every adult should be capable of being independent.
No fetus will ever take precedence over my life and health and the well-being of my family.

reply from: Rosalie

Men do not have an equal say when it comes to pregnancy. They do not have a say. The woman's body is actually involved in the gestating process and childbirth. The man's body is not. Ever.
That'ss the reality of reproduction. If you don'st like it, don'st reproduce or find a submissive robot who you can chain in your basement and force her to do everything you want to with no regards for her wishes or health.
In an ideal situation, in an actually functioning relationship, the mother and father always talk it over and she naturally takes his opinion into consideration. If you do not have this kind of a relationship with the pregnant woman, then there's already something wrong.

reply from: sk1bianca

here you go again...
man = sperm producer

reply from: Rosalie

here you go again...
man = sperm producer
If you would actually read what I wrote, you'd know that you have just made an idiot out of yourself.
Not everyone who partakes in a reproduction is a father. I don't consider people who just created a child and then never heard of their kid again by their own choice parents. Parent to me is someone who is actively involved with the upbringing of their children and who loves their children unconditonally.
So - big fat fail for you. Read what I wrote, instead of being belligerent and looking for an excuse to attack me.

reply from: sk1bianca

so if the guy "chooses" to be a father and really wants the baby, loves him unconditionally, wants to be a part of his life and so on... he still shouldn't have a thing to say because he's just a sperm producer and doesn't get pregnant?

reply from: Rosalie

He has no say so. Why should he have any rights over what happens to the woman's body? Read my posts in this thread, I stated it quite clearly.
I have also stated that:
In an ideal situation, in an actually functioning relationship, the mother and father always talk it over and she naturally takes his opinion into consideration. If you do not have this kind of a relationship with the pregnant woman, then there's already something wrong.
Why don't you READ before you react to someone's comments?

reply from: sk1bianca

your opinion, that no matter how much the father wants the baby, he should have no say in wether the baby is killed or not, is... repulsive.
it's not about "rights over what happens to the woman's body" it's about rights over what happens to his child's body.

reply from: Rosalie

I find your opinion that if the father wants the baby, the woman should be forced to endure pregnancy against her will repulsive. It is not any different from the woman being forced to have an abortion against her will. Both are repulsive.
WOMEN ARE THE ONES THAT GET PREGNANT. Women are therefore the ones who call the shots. I'm sorry you don't get it. Scream unfair all you want. . Women have just about everything much harder and riskier than men. If the man is any good, he would never even consider forcing the person he loves or once loved to gestate and give birth against her will. If he'ss a horrible bastard, then of course he might just do that. I personally wouldn't touch anyone like that with a stick.

reply from: sk1bianca

why do you find it so hard to undrestand that some men can actually have feelings towards their unborn children? that they might try to save them from being killed?
imagine your child is being chopped to pieces and thrown in the trash and there's nothing you can do about it...

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's just how I view child support. Are you pro-gay-adoption? I am; and yes I agree that 2-parent homes are better than single parents ONLY IF both parents are caring and not abusive. I'd rather see a child with one parent than two, and be abused by one.
You can't force people to be parents. It's an emotional burden for the rest of your life - unlike pregnancy, which lasts 9 months. I'm not saying pregnancy has no lasting effects, but I AM saying that parenting has a much stronger and longer effect.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

And they also apparently deserve to be torn apart in the womb if Mommy can't love them.

reply from: scopia19822

"Men do not have an equal say when it comes to pregnancy. They do not have a say. The woman's body is actually involved in the gestating process and childbirth. The man's body is not. Ever"
Do you oppose a man having equal say after the child is born? After birth the law doesnt recognize the baby as the womans property any longer. Unless hes proven unfit by the court a man has equal say in the legal and medical decisions regarding the wellbeing of his child. The law needs to be consisitent in this matter and that would be accomplished by giving the man the right to be able to stop a woman from aborting his child.

reply from: scopia19822

"And they also apparently deserve to be torn apart in the womb if Mommy can't love them."
My mom certainly didnt love me, but that doesnt mean she had a right to kill me. However I had an aunt that did love me as her own and as Im far as Im concearned she was my mother. She was the one that sat up with me when I was sick with a fever and the chickenpox when I was 2. She was the one who fixed my scraped knees and elbows. She was the one who meted out punishment if I misbehaved and taught me right from wrong. My uncle was the one who taught me how to ride a bike, to build sandcastles and other things as well. One may be pregnant and not want to be a parent. They dont have to be, they can surrender the child for adoption. They dont have a moral or ethical right to kill that child, no matter what.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Precisely Scopia. Your right to live is not dependent on how much people "love" you.

reply from: scopia19822

"That's just how I view child support. Are you pro-gay-adoption? I am; and yes I agree that 2-parent homes are better than single parents ONLY IF both parents are caring and not abusive. I'd rather see a child with one parent than two, and be abused by one."
I am not pro gay adoption, I think ideally children need a mother and a father. However I dont think that gay people should be denied rights to custody of their biological children simply because they are gay. I firmly believe in the importance of blood ties and natural law. And of course its better for a child to be raised in a single home than in an abusive home with both parents. What bothers me most is when I see a single mother with 4 or 5 kids each with a different father and none of those kids have daddy in their lives because he either ran off or in jail None of these men are supporting their children, so it falls onto the taxpayers. I have no problem at all with social service programs that will help women choose life over abortion for their children, help people who want to help themselves or the disabled who cant work any longer. Its not that the woman is on welfare, but that these children are going without knowing their fathers and yet the woman keeps getting pregnant and having more children with deadbeats.

reply from: micah

Then if the law says that a person can choose an abortion, should the man be able to force the woman to have an abortion? For example, suppose a woman's baby is going to die within 6 months of being born and the baby's life will be painful. What if the man thinks abortion is best for the child?

reply from: scopia19822

"Then if the law says that a person can choose an abortion, should the man be able to force the woman to have an abortion? For example, suppose a woman's baby is going to die within 6 months of being born and the baby's life will be painful. What if the man thinks abortion is best for the child
Men already force women to abort. Abortion is wrong and should be illegal. But if abortion is going to be legal than a man should be able to have rights to his child before birth.

reply from: micah

Could you explain this in a bit more detail?

reply from: Rosalie

How utterly disgusting. And what a great example of what religion does to people.
Why do you think you have ANY right to pass judgment on the sexual behavior of others? It is creepy that you should consider yourself any authority on the sexual or reproductive choices of others. You do NOT know the woman, you have NO WAY of knowing what happened to her and for all you know, her story might be something you'd never expect. You post your stories here all the time yet you don't see that you are not the only person in the world who had bad luck.
There'll always be someone abusing the system but I'd never agree with removing the support altogether just because of a few *****s.
Why do you find it so hard to understand that no amount of anyone's feelings is more important than my right to decide about my body, health and life? Because believe it or not, LIFE does not mean just a beating heart, it encompasses many more things; to me, it encompasses first and foremost my family. They and their well-being is more important to me than all the fetuses of the world.
Your emo propaganda is very amusing, by the way.
And they also apparently deserve to be torn apart in the womb if Mommy can't love them.
Oooh, more emo propaganda. Typical "pro-life" style. And snubbing unconditional love ... that, I guess, is pro-life style, too. Because you just CANNOT grasp the fact that life is more than just existence, that it is more than a beating heart or human DNA.
You see abortion as murder. I see everything the "pro-life" movement stands for as the ultimate abuse of women. It disgusts me and I will always fight it.

reply from: scopia19822

"Could you explain this in a bit more detail? "
Sure, let start with job discrimination and employers. A woman comes to work and informs her employer that shes pregnant. He tells her in a firm but nice voice that her contract states that she cant have any outside conflicting interest and continue her employment at this job. She knows without that job she cant support herself, much less her unborn child. So she is forced to choose her child or her job. She aborts because she sees no other alternative.
Next lets look at relationships. A man finds out his wife/girlfriend is pregnant. He doesnt want to be a parent or responsible, so he makes it very clear she has a choice to make him or her child. In a domestic violence sitaution a man will use abortion as another means to control his victim. He doesnt want a child, so he tells her to either abort or she will face serious bodlily harm or even death.
And then last but not least is the Puriantical father, who doesnt want the people at church to know his daughter had sex much less that shes pregnant. Shes given a choice either she terminates the pregnancy or she and her child will be on the streets. To a minor she will most likely abort rather than be out on the streets.

reply from: Rosalie

Men forcing women to abort = wrong. Men forcing women to remain pregnant against their will = right. Except not, Scopia. They're both horrible, disgusting things.
Abortion is not wrong and it will never be illegal. And men will never have any rights that would override women's rights. Your sexist and misgoynistic views do not belong to this world anymore.

reply from: scopia19822

"How utterly disgusting. And what a great example of what religion does to people. "
How intolerant of me not to support gay adoption. How intolerant of me to support the traditional family, something even though I was raised by relatives it was something I never had and want for my son. For him to have a home with a MARRIED mother and father. You are a great example of what the lack of faith does to people. If you think Im disgusting/intolerant because of my relgion I thank you for that compliment.

reply from: scopia19822

"Your sexist and misgoynistic views do not belong to this world anymore."
I must be watching too much Two and Half Men. I love that show. Allan and Charlies mother is just like mine.

reply from: scopia19822

"Why do you think you have ANY right to pass judgment on the sexual behavior of others? It is creepy that you should consider yourself any authority on the sexual or reproductive choices of others. You do NOT know the woman, you have NO WAY of knowing what happened to her and for all you know, her story might be something you'd never expect. You post your stories here all the time yet you don't see that you are not the only person in the world who had bad luck."
I dont care about their sexual behavior, what I care about is seeing children not having their fathers or postive male role models in their life. These women keep picking the same type of men over and over again and having children with them. My sons best friend whos origianlly from Queens NY and they are getting ready to move to Far Rock Away in the next week is the oldest of 3 and they all have different fathers all of them absentee none of these men send a dime of support for their children. My son asked the middle sister where her daddy was and she said right in front of us "I dont have a daddy, he ran away" that was sad and heartbreaking at the same time. I have no problem with helping these women and their children out, but priorty should not be given to them and married familes should not be penalized and often unable to recieve any assitance at all because the father is in the home. Children deserve and need both parents in their lives.

reply from: Rosalie

Yes. It is intolerant, disgusting, selfish, patriarchal and sexist. Congratulations. That should earn you a lot of points with the rest of "pro-lifers". They value taht a lot.

reply from: Rosalie

How long until you start thinking that they made the show JUST about you? After all, everything is in some way about you, right?
Unless you know all these women personally, you cannot know whether the kids have a male role model in their lives and why they don't have it. You are just too judgmental to admit that, though.
Children deserve to be wanted and to be loved unconditionally. Everything else is not nearly as important.

reply from: BossMomma

Why should she be stuck with all the responsibility? He is partly responsible for the child being concieved and, should pay his share. It seems you support every degenerate ideal known, infanticide, sexism, racism, child neglect and now, deadbeat dads?

reply from: scopia19822

"Yes. It is intolerant, disgusting, selfish, patriarchal and sexist. Congratulations. That should earn you a lot of points with the rest of "pro-lifers". They value taht a lot."
What is so wrong about valuing tradtional marriage and family? these things often are what often a child stabilty and a healthy enviorment to grow up in? Im not going to be one going out and protesting gay marriage/adoption. If the issue is given to the people of my state to vote on I will vote my conscience. Four years ago their was a proposal on the ballot to add an amendment to the state constitution to define marriage as a man/woman. I voted in favor and the amendment passed. I believe gay marriage/adoption is a states rights issue.

reply from: sk1bianca

rosalie, i will repeat my question...
how would you feel if you knew that your child is about to be killed and there would be nothing you could do about it?

reply from: JRH

She's not stuck with anything. She can easily give up the child.
Why is it that the woman can absolve herself but he cannot? If she does not want it and he does she does not have to pay anything. This is unfair. If one can get out of it both should be able to. You aren't making sense.
You keep making false claims about me. You don''t seem to understand supporting right of a person to do a thing is not support of that thing. That's because you are a fascist.

reply from: JRH

That's her fault for signing the contract and taking the job. no one is forcing her.
Not forcing her
That's also not forcing her, though it is cruel.

reply from: micah

Furthermore, it's not exactly like single women who became pregnant were treatly nicely before abortion was legal. Read about what would happen to a high school girl who got pregnant in the 50s. Or what happened if you were a working woman and got pregnant. A single pregnant woman 70 years ago would have been completely at the mercy of a pro-life society.
Now, the pregnant woman has far more control, and if a pro-lifer wants to make an effect, he must be willing to be at her disposal by offering her assistance. The only other option for a pro-lifer is to scream pro-life chants to a deaf mainstream media.

reply from: yoda

Hardly. We can stand as silent witnesses for the humanity of the unborn child. Sometimes that is the most effective thing we do.
Regardless of whatever you may have to say about how "society" treats unmarried pregnant women, no baby is to blame for any of it. So the actions and attitudes of "society" do not justify killing a baby.

reply from: scopia19822

"Children deserve to be wanted and to be loved unconditionally."
Of course children deserved to be wanted ideally, but not all are planned in advance. Sometimes it takes a little while to grow accustomed to pending parenthood and the fact that a child is about to be born. However I think the last part of your statement is flawed. Children do love to be loved unconditionally, wherther they are planned or not. It seems to me your love for your child/ren is conditional, upon the fact that they are there only at your will and mercy.

reply from: scopia19822

"How long until you start thinking that they made the show JUST about you? After all, everything is in some way about you, right? "
Well you said my sexist mysogynist views dont belong in this world. I must have been watching too many episodes of two and half men and the show has rubbed off on me, maybe I need to quit watching it. And if there was a TV mother that is like my mom its Evelyn Harper and Im sure many other people in America would make similar statements.

reply from: BossMomma

She's not stuck with anything. She can easily give up the child.
Why is it that the woman can absolve herself but he cannot? If she does not want it and he does she does not have to pay anything. This is unfair. If one can get out of it both should be able to. You aren't making sense.
You keep making false claims about me. You don''t seem to understand supporting right of a person to do a thing is not support of that thing. That's because you are a fascist.
And you are a libertine, no matter how morally bankrupt the concept you'd support it if that's what the person wanted to do. I'm not making any false claims, I'm bringing up things that you argued for and claim you support.

reply from: 4given

Bless your aunt and uncle!

reply from: 4given

You are aware of the fact that women have to pay child support as well, right? My sister actually had her license suspended for failure to pay child support for two of her children.

reply from: scopia19822

"Bless your aunt and uncle! "
My aunt may God rest her soul was the most selfless person I ever met. She lost a baby boy 6 months before I was born. She didnt want to be around pregnant women or babies, yet she took me into her home anyway. I cant imagine the pain she was still going through when she made that decision and having me in the NICU at the Medical College of Charleston knowing I might not pull through the seizures and convulsions from my being born coke addicted with a grim prognoisis that I might die as well. My uncle was what they call "Black Irish" tough as nails, strict but fair. He is now back in Ireland married to a widowed woman he grew up with. I think us 4 kids turned out ok. We made our mistakes, but I think they did a good job. Im married with a son, my cousin Amanda is married to a permanant deacon in the Catholic Church and lives in Dublin, my cousin Antoine is a celebate layperson in Charleston SC and my cousin Jessica took her final vows 2 years ago and joined the Sisters of the Holy Family and is teaching in New Orleans at a Catholic school. Im the only one that doesnt have direct involment with the religious life of the Church.

reply from: 4given

That is such intertesting history Scopia. Very unique. I'm sorry for how your fragile life began. I have to say that substance abuse changes a person so drastically. It isn't that one desires to hurt another person- or even is aware of how deeply they do. A long time addict and family friend put it to me this way. He said "It changes you completely. It eats your soul." My prayer for your mother is that she will come to the reality of who and how she has hurt. I pray also that she comes to Christ for the mercy, healing and grace he desires to give to her. It sounds like despite how she has hurt you, God placed your life in the hands of those He desired. 4 females? I can imagine what bathroom time must have been like. Are you still close to them? Did you have any other biological siblings?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You are aware of the fact that women have to pay child support as well, right? My sister actually had her license suspended for failure to pay child support for two of her children.
I've never heard of it; all I ever hear about is how men have to do it, and of women trying to suck dry the pockets of their "loser" boyfriends.

reply from: scopia19822

"I've never heard of it; all I ever hear about is how men have to do it, and of women trying to suck dry the pockets of their "loser" boyfriends."
you should watch Judge Judy . She gives men and women who dont support their kids equal hell for not doing so.

reply from: 4given

It is more common for women to rear the children. The state tends to give more leniency to the mom in nearly every situation, especially in regard to custody. Whomever has primary custody is the who is to receive the support payments. She had shared custody but was not their primary guardian.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That show makes me want to pull out my own teeth...

reply from: scopia19822

"That show makes me want to pull out my own teeth..."
I love it

reply from: BossMomma

LOL Judge Judy is brutal with dead beat parents, no mercy at all.

reply from: scopia19822

"LOL Judge Judy is brutal with dead beat parents, no mercy at all."
Especially when they are living an extravagant lifestyle, oh she reams them and tears them a new one.

reply from: BossMomma

I have to admit though she is quick to show her fangs, sometimes she is just a little too insulting.

reply from: Rosalie

Sorry, I missed it the first time around.
If the tables were turned and my fiancé was the one who would carry and birth our children, I would of course be just as respectful to him as he had always been to me. I couldn't live with myself if I tolerated or encouraged people having their rights to make their own reproductive decisions freely and their rights to what happens to their body taken away.
Scopia ... can you read? Or is twisting someone's words and then make up insults that you think will hurt the other party the most everything you can do?
Unwanted DOES NOT MEAN unplanned. Not all unplanned babies are unwanted, not all planned babies are wanted. These two terms are not interchangeable.
Well, of course I said that! I consider your views to be just as outdated and wrong as, say, racism.
And way to miss my point.

reply from: faithman

Killers have to blur that line to justify their evil deeds. Darkness avoids light, because it is exposed for what it is in light. The borties want to cover their issue, and as the profetii killer has said herself," fight tooth and toenail" against the light of personhood for the womb child. Personhood is the light. The line drawn in the sand. The distinction between false and true. If things seem shadowy, it is no time to compromise. It is time to turn up the light of personhood until there is no more "what if" shadows. Just the simple fact of womb child personhood, and the final judgment of citizen jurist as to what punishment for those who destroy the preborn. That is the way it is for the born person, that is the way it should be with the womb child person.

reply from: scopia19822

"I consider your views to be just as outdated and wrong as, say, racism. "
Well Im not a racist Ro-Ro so you cant go there. I think your beliefs are way out of left feild past the ball park and the parking lot next to the ballpark. I may be a bit to the right, but Im not too far from the center.

reply from: Rosalie

CAN YOU READ?
CAN YOU READ, SCOPIA? Serious question.
I NEVER SAID YOU WERE RACIST. I said that your sexist views are just as outdated and wrong AS the views of racist people. Please learn to read before you respond.
Ro-Ro? Is that supposed an improvement from Ro-Ho? Wow. I'm so flattered.

reply from: scopia19822

"Ro-Ro? Is that supposed an improvement from Ro-Ho? Wow. I'm so flattered."
I believe that was Spinnys doing, the fact that you brought racism into the equation is enough for me to think you're going to go the way of accusing me of being a racist

reply from: BossMomma

CAN YOU READ?
CAN YOU READ, SCOPIA? Serious question.
I NEVER SAID YOU WERE RACIST. I said that your sexist views are just as outdated and wrong AS the views of racist people. Please learn to read before you respond.
Ro-Ro? Is that supposed an improvement from Ro-Ho? Wow. I'm so flattered.
lol I call my eldest daughter Rowynn Ro-Ro

reply from: scopia19822

"lol I call my eldest daughter Rowynn Ro-Ro"
I call my son spiderman....he insisted thats his name now... he will change it by the end of the week.

reply from: sk1bianca

so, rosalie, you wouldn't mind your child being killed? not even if you really wanted him/her? would you at least feel sorry for him?

reply from: BossMomma

Isabelle's nickname has become Tinkerbell because she lost a lot of her birth weight now that she's not getting an overload of blood sugar and she has such a little pixie face.

reply from: Rosalie

Except I never acuused you of being racist. I said:
I consider your views to be just as outdated and wrong as, say, racism.
In case you really do not understand that, this means that in my opinion, your views are just as horrible as racist views. I really don't know how else I should explain that to you. I'd think everyone over 10 years would understand that sentence.
Learn to read. Seriously, work on it. It's happened way too many times for me to think you have just misread something. YOu really cannot comprehend other people's posts. Go work on it, comprehension is an extremely important skill.
lol I call my eldest daughter Rowynn Ro-Ro
I was not complaining. I was merely asking. I actually think it's quite cute, I was just wondering when Scopia stopped calling me a ho.
If he wanted to have an abortion, he'd most likely have a good enough reason to do it. And I would respect that and loved him none the less because I cannot bear the thought anyone and least of all myself abusing him. I would never be able to look at him or myself again if I forced him to go through a pregnancy against his will. It's inexcusable, intolerable.
I feel sorry for those who actually suffer. For those who hurt with their body and sould. For born children who are hurt, do not have parents to love them unconditionally just like they deserve, who are being starved to death. I hurt for them and I always try to do as much as I can to help them.
One child suffering means more than all the aborted fetuses of the world.

reply from: angelofsorrow

Judging from my own personal experience as a sidewalk counselor outside the
local abortion clinic there seems to be a lot of fathers driving their pregnant
partner to the clinic to get an abortion. When we try to talk to a lot of these men
they get very nasty and hostile. One fellow sidewalk counselor said that may be
because they might be feeling some guilt and take out their anger on us. This one
little pipsqueak of a man after he passed us in his car to take his wife into the
clinic, got out of his car and walked down to where we were on the sidewalk and
started screaming in our faces all kinds of verbal abuse.
I know some of these men later on will regret the killing of their unborn child. I
heard a story about a father who tried to stop his girlfriend or wife from having
an abortion, she refused and had the abortion. He committed suicide in front of
a Planned Parenthood clinic. I don't remember his name, or what year or what
state it was. This is one of the saddest stories I've ever heard.

reply from: micah

I wonder if this is due to child support laws.

reply from: faithman

You have to understand that these monsters have murder in their heart. I have had simular experiances at clinics. I actually almost got run over once. But the punk wouldn't get out of his car. They really get pissed when you tell them "real men raise their children, they don't have them killed". Just realize you are dealing with very dangerous predatory men, and like most creatures of darkness, hate light with a passion. That is why it is important to carry a camera with you when you go to a clinic. It puts a hault to pro-death violence by giving you evidence to their assault crimes. Crimes the media just won't report by the way.....

reply from: Rosalie

Real men? Real men do not abuse women. Real men would never even dream of forcing their significant others to have an abortion or continue their pregnancies against their will. That's not what real, loving men do.

reply from: faithman

My point exactly! A point that is lost on pro-abort predatory men.

reply from: faithman

Killers have to blur that line to justify their evil deeds. Darkness avoids light, because it is exposed for what it is in light. The borties want to cover their issue, and as the profetii killer has said herself," fight tooth and toenail" against the light of personhood for the womb child. Personhood is the light. The line drawn in the sand. The distinction between false and true. If things seem shadowy, it is no time to compromise. It is time to turn up the light of personhood until there is no more "what if" shadows. Just the simple fact of womb child personhood, and the final judgment of citizen jurist as to what punishment for those who destroy the preborn. That is the way it is for the born person, that is the way it should be with the womb child person.


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