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Evidence

by: ChristianLott2

There are about four or five pro life people on this board. The rest fall into two categories:
1. Pro choice/abortion advocates
2. Defenders of pro choice/abortion advocates
It's very upsetting to see so many people who say they believe a baby has the right to life defend advocates of abortion.
They make snide comments and jokes about me and the other few pro lifer's on this board. They don't take us seriously. Even a few otherwise very sensible people have gone out of their way to defend pro choicer's like carolemarie.
I just really can't understand why an otherwise sensible person would defend someone who's diametrically opposed to what you say you hold dear. Is it because you feel sorry for this person or maybe you've forgotten what this person advocates?
It's been almost a month since this list began and it's just grown and grown. Everyday there seems to be one more otherwise pro life person defending -specifically- someone as pro abortion as carolemarie. Is it that this person confused you when she claimed to be pro life then backpedaled when you weren't looking? No, I don't think that's the case.
If I steal from you, then say I'm sorry, then tell someone else stealing is okay - do you really believe I was actually sorry I stole from you the first time? Do you believe I'm reformed even when I advocate someone elses' 'right' to steal?
This is so rediculous, so obviously hypocritical and downright ugly it amazes me there are so many otherwise intelligent people who would cast a blind eye to this kind of behaviour.
And it sickens me. I know I can't understand every psychological aspect of people's experiences but I do know and can see the facts. The fact that carolemarie advocates elective abortion outside saving the life of the mother is the glaring fact here. That's what separates a pro choice person from a pro life person. Why and how an otherwise pro life person could defend and protect such a liar is simply outrageous.
So I'm wondering why there are so many pro choicers out there who want to be known as pro life. You don't advocate changing any laws and you know - that's what this whole thing is about. That's the difference, because we want to see laws changed. We want to actually PROTECT the pre born baby, not one at a time, not on the weekend, or whenever I can get down to the clinic - we want laws in place which will defend them ALL the time. Permanently.
So here is the evidence, right there in the sig. This board is dominated by pro aborts. It also happens to be dominated by women. So you tell me - the most outspoken, the most 'concerned' about this issue - they happen to be mostly women and they happen to be mostly pro choice.
If there were ever any question for the true pro lifer WHY abortion is stil legal and why it's happening at such an alarming rate and why everyone and everything except women are being blamed for these abortions - just look at the sig. Look at the type of person who's claiming to be pro life, they're actually not pro life at all. Even for the very few in that list who actually want the legislation passed to save those babies, they take their time out to defend those who don't, rendering their beliefs and opinions null and void to any discerning spectator. Hypocrites and liars.
Ina few days is the anniversary of RvW. When I go to the capital and see all the people standing out there I'll be reminded of my list. I'll know deep in my heart that out of the vast congregation holding up their signs and saying prayers, there are very few actual pro life people and the majority are no different than the ones they supposedly condemn.
RIP little people. They really don't care. They really won't change.

reply from: sheri

That little ditty fits a proabort more then a lifer, we weep over the "battles weve lost." However...
Lotty, youve got me on the list i can only surmise that you think i am a empty barrel, with no real intent at ending abortion, i would be very pleased if you would talk to me now and let me know where i personally have gone wrong.
please write slowly, im a slow reader.

reply from: carolemarie

the reason your list grows is because you are wrong....

reply from: micah

Pro-life is one of the social conservative movements that is gradually being phased out. Find a politician who says he's willing to put a woman whose had an abortion in jail. That should tell you something about how willing politicians are to make abortion illegal.

reply from: carolemarie

We don't ever have to jail women. We just make performing abortions against the law and only the Dr. go to jail.
The point is ending it. Not sending women to jail....

reply from: micah

First, that position is very logically inconsistent: A fetus can be killed, but only if the mother does it? Second, on a practical note, people can and will do at-home abortions. It's not very technically difficult to have an abortion.

reply from: BossMomma

Funny, you left out your catagory
Pro-life until birth or until asked to marry the mother.

reply from: carolemarie

That was the law before Roe. Works fine. We need the mother to testify to proscute the Dr.
This is about ending legal abortion, not punishing women.
Second, yes, there will still be abortions that people will get away with. Driving drunk is against the law and people still do it too...

reply from: Banned Member

If abortion were made illegal, who will be performing them? Who would seek them? Is it not often punishable under the law to seek and pay someone to do something that is illegal? Even if the abortion is done without pay, should not the person who seeks another for mutual cooperation in breaking the law be punished? Is not seeking to end another human persons death considered conspiracy to commit homocide, even if you do not perform the act yourself?

reply from: Faramir

blah blah blah,
TLDR
Except the last line...it's not our job to "condemn" people. That's God's business.

reply from: carolemarie

When we write the law, it does what we design it to do. Before Roe, women were not prosecuted. Their testimony was used to stop the Doctors.
There is no need to jail women. If you take away a medical licence if a Dr. performs one, except in the case of the life of the mother, rape and incest, then they will stop doing them.
Which ends abortion. Which is the point.
Isn't ending it the point? Or is the point punishing women who have one?

reply from: Banned Member

Punish doesn't always mean to jail a person. The fact that a woman would seek a person, whether they are an abortion provider or nor, to have an abortion, would need to be addressed.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Like I said before, I'm very upset so many otherwise sensible pro lifers have really gone out of their way to defend pro choicers like carolemarie.
You not only defend her, you attack those who call her out for her lies. Same with Teresa, churchmouse,lukesmom and scopia.
carolemarie makes just as many excuses to murder a child as any other pro abort but for some reason all of you keep defending.

reply from: carolemarie

To what purpose? You need her testimony to convict him.
Profit is what drives abortion. Take out the money, and there will be very few performed.
this isn't rocket science. Abortion needs to end. Make performing abortions against the law, leave the three exceptions, and then any Dr who performs one loses his licence and does at least 10 years in jail.
The risk to reward ratio will be to high and dr. will decline to do abortions.
Thus ending abortion on demand.
That is the goal and that is a simple easy way to do it.

reply from: ChristianLott2

The point is to treat murder as murder or we'll wind up back in the same mess.
But you know, whatever. As long as people like you get props from all the faux lifers, nothing will ever change.
I'm not wrong. I hold a logically consistent and moral view point. You are the one who advocates choice in so many different circumstances even if abortion were 'outlawed' you'd leave so many loopholes it would be effectively worthless - just like all the other legislature that's been passed up to this point.

reply from: Banned Member

10 years???? 25 years mandatory! Abortion performed on a minor should be 35 years to life.

reply from: micah

So basically a woman could perform an abortion on herself, and no crime done. But if a doctor does it safely, there's jail time?

reply from: Faramir

The point is to treat murder as murder or we'll wind up back in the same mess.
But you know, whatever. As long as people like you get props from all the faux lifers, nothing will ever change.
I'm not wrong. I hold a logically consistent and moral view point. You are the one who advocates choice in so many different circumstances even if abortion were 'outlawed' you'd leave so many loopholes it would be effectively worthless - just like all the other legislature that's been passed up to this point.
People like Sheri, Teresa, Lukesmom, me, and others do NOT defend carolemarie's postions about exceptions.
We defend her because it is cruel to smack her around over abortions she is obviously sorry about, REGARDLESS of any errors in her beliefs, if any.
We defend her because although she does not see the prolife issue exactly the same as we do, she embraces the core of it.
We defend her because she is or has been a successful counsellor and has saved hundreds and hundreds of babies from destruction by abortion. She is an advocate for the unborn, and she DOES WHAT SHE TALKS ABOUT.
I'm "more" prolife in my beliefs than she is, but I have done nothing more than yap about abortion on message boards. She has actually stuck her neck out and done real pro-life work, making her a million times more effective than I am as a prol-lifer or any other pro-lifer who has the right beliefs, but who does not do the pro-life work she does.
And believe it or not, it is possible to be civil to the pro-choicer. They are people too. It's wrong to hate them. It's right to hate abortion, but wrong to hate those who advocate it or practice it.
For abortion to stop, the hearts and minds of the masses must be won over. In my humble opionion, if the extremists are what they see of the pro-life movement, then that's not going to happen, because they will not be able to see the prolife message. That message will be blocked, because all they will see is the anger and the kookiness.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Huh????
Abortions performed on minors will be completely LEGAL according to carolemarie.
This is the sick one they're all supporting, so that's our future Augustine. The faux lifers have all given her the green light, so don't you dare talk back!

reply from: ChristianLott2

Don't try your logic here micah, it won't work. The faux lifer's have unanimously endorsed carolemarie and don't you dare question it!

reply from: ChristianLott2

Translate this for us, micah.
IMHO you are the kookie extremist. You think by treating a murder like a candy thief things are going to change.
You think someone who's had several abortions is showing signs of regret when they advocate more abortion and 'choice' for minors.
You need to quite hero worshiping the pro abort and start believing in the TRUTH. Stop all that phony compassion. It's sick.
And if you sense anger from me, good. I am very angry and I'm not ashamed either. If you think that drives people away, maybe those people need to go. We're talking about the greatest holocaust EVER. If you don't believe it's important enough to get upset over or fight for you should just shut up and get out of the mthrfkng way!

reply from: Faramir

You don't have some kind of "righteous anger" going on with the comments you've made. You're deluded if you think you do. You're just trippin' on hate, dude.

reply from: sk1bianca

technically speaking, in order to stop people from doing something there must be some sort of punishment involved. because if people know they can get away with it, they will continue doing whatever we are trying to prohibit.
those who say women shouldn't be punished probably view abortion as something being DONE to women, not as their "choice". can women be considered victims of their own decision? i would say yes only if they sincerely regret the abortion.
and if abortion becomes illegal, should we treat it as murder? if we don't than we're just another bunch of hypocrites because we can't say there's no difference between born and unborn children, and treat their deaths differently.

reply from: Skippy

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
No one's in your way, freak.
Don't take this the wrong way, because I do not mean it as criticism. But I don't think ChristianLott should be tormented the way he is on this board.
The guy's obviously in terrible pain, and a little unhinged about what happened. Calling him a freak, or mocking him for his refusal to marry his girlfriend, or laughing about his mental state, are not effective debate tools. They are just meanness.
I kind of feel sorry for the guy.
Anyway, my point is, there are more effective ways of advancing a point of view (no matter which side you are on) than using ol' ChristianLott as a punching bag.

reply from: nancyu

She's condemns this girl. Remember the carolemarie who preaches forgiveness?
I'm really not defending her actions. I'm just not willing to write off the girl as an evil child because of a mistake she's made, albeit a horrifying one.
Between you deciding she's capable of evil at 14, GodsLaw4Us2Live advocating the lethal injection and Sander telling me that compromises which might save lives are unacceptable, I'm beginning to wonder how much compassion really exists in this group.
What happened to your child at 15?
Everyone is capable of evil.
It is more than a mistake, to flush a living child down the toilet! That is a vicious thing to do. I don't think she should be put to death because she is 14 and can be rehabilitated. She obviously needs serious help....and being in a treatment facility till she is 18 will make sure she gets that help.
I start to notice Cracrat keeps asking her about her abortion decisions at 15, and she keeps not answering.
Wait a minute, if she needs serious help and a treatment facility, why do mothers who abort their children get off scott free?
You're advocating treatment and a stint in a state run mental facility for one set of mothers and nothing for another set of mothers. Why so?
That's pretty double minded.
Seriously???
Abortion is legal, a point that you seem to forget, so why would anyone punish people who are obeying the law...
Drowning your newborn in a toilet isn't legal, and is seriously depraved and she OBVIOUSLY needs help.
The two acts are NOT the same thing at all
Egads! You make it sound like women who don't abort are dis-obeying the law! It's stunning!
My how you seem to want that law protected.
I neither said nor implied that at all. Let me make it simple so you can grasp this.
We are talking about a 14 year old who gave birth to a child and drowned it in a toilet. This is called murder, it is a crime. I think she is obviously crazy and needs long term help, which she would get while in custody. We don't give 14 year olds the death penelty here in Texas.
Women or 14 year old girls who get abortions are not breaking any law, so we don't get to punish them, or make them get help.
Egads! You make it sound like women who don't abort are dis-obeying the law! It's stunning!
My how you seem to want that law protected.
I neither said nor implied that at all. Let me make it simple so you can grasp this.
We are talking about a 14 year old who gave birth to a child and drowned it in a toilet. This is called murder, it is a crime. I think she is obviously crazy and needs long term help, which she would get while in custody. We don't give 14 year olds the death penelty here in Texas.
Women or 14 year old girls who get abortions are not breaking any law, so we don't get to punish them, or make them get help.
Of course that's what you said and implied...read it again:
so why would anyone punish people who are obeying the law
If you meant to say someone aborting isn't breaking the law then say it, don't say
if she is she is just obeying the law...egads, how dense can one be?????
And who said she should get the death penalty? I sure didn't. I said she should face the full extent of the law. If that doesn't include the death penalty, then so be it.
But, why should she get any punishment? Why should she have to face a court of law at all, why should she be made to get treatment? She was just doing what other women do, she just waited til the baby was born.
I am sorry my statement wasn't up to your high standards. I wasn't aware of any grammar police on this board...
She BROKE the law. That is why she is in trouble. That's why she will be punished. There was no reason to do this to that poor little baby! She had other choices than drowning a newborn in a toilet....and she had to pickup her baby and put it in the toilet and drown it herself...that is depraved and it is not even remotely like getting an abortion.....if you can't see that you need mental help...
I guess her POV is that it is worse of a crime to "break a law" than to kill a child. And it is worse that she "had to pickup her baby and put it in the toilet and drown it herself" than if she had hired a professional to kill the baby for her.
I hope everyone will begin to see why it is carolemarie that we pick on so often. These are NOT personal attacks. But her mindset represents the pro abort mentality to a T. And she speaks it to a T. Her mindset (not her person) is what I am here to fight against.
If anyone tries to tell me that I have to be nice when I respond to her words, (or words from any other pro aborts) I am going to tell them, that no one is going to tell me to be nice to people who think it is no big deal to kill babies just because someone told them that it's "legal"
It IS a big deal, and it is NOT LEGAL.

reply from: sheri

Lotty, that is a good question, why do you think we take offense at someone calling CM a murderer? Could there be a reason behind it or are we just defending murder?

reply from: ChristianLott2

I call all pro aborts murderers whether they've had an abortion or not. You are what you condone. They condone murder, so I call them murderers. That carolemarie has actually done the killing multiple times, claims she's repented and is 'forgiven' and still condones more killing is something that should not be ignored.
You are minimizing their transgression and attacking those who are speaking the truth. In essence you are being a hypocrite, a liar and a defender of murderers.
Could there be a psychological reason you refuse to attack someone like cm? You tell me how you can defend someone who condones murder, claim you don't condone murder and not seem like a simple hypocrite.

reply from: carolemarie

Huh????
Abortions performed on minors will be completely LEGAL according to carolemarie.
This is the sick one they're all supporting, so that's our future Augustine. The faux lifers have all given her the green light, so don't you dare talk back!
I never once said that abortions on minors would be completely legal. If they were not raped or incest victims they wouldn't be able to get an abortion either.
We are discussing elective abortion.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Here you go lying again.

reply from: nancyu

Here you go lying again.
You know what *they* say, "if at first you don't succeed, lie and lie again."
*pro aborts*

reply from: sheri

Lotty, Have you ever given an intrview to the media? I suggest you treat your time here in the same manner for the same reasons, people are watching, whats more, people who are thinking about having an abortion are watching. we can not afford to send the wrong message to those people. lives are at stake.
That is why when CM says she believes in exceptions we do not kick her out of the prolife club, we explain to her why every life needs to be protected, Cheerio did this the other day, that is the way you save lives.
You have become distracted by things you can not change, they are threaghtening to railroad your message.

reply from: Faramir

Here you go lying again.
You know what *they* say, "if at first you don't succeed, lie and lie again."
*pro aborts*
Why don't you go call the cops and tell them abortion is "illegal" since you know so much?
You could stop abortion in your own town at least. Maybe you're the only one there who knows it's illegal, and arrests could be made today.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Here you go lying again.
You know what *they* say, "if at first you don't succeed, lie and lie again."
*pro aborts*
Why don't you go call the cops and tell them abortion is "illegal" since you know so much?
You could stop abortion in your own town at least. Maybe you're the only one there who knows it's illegal, and arrests could be made today.
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. carolemarie gets busted LYING AGAIN and what happens? Fear-a-smear attacks the pro lifer and defends the pro abort!
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=5662&enterthread=y

reply from: ChristianLott2

and you and the rest of the faux lifers are sending the wrong message by defending pro aborts.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Again - keep on defending the pro aborts! You don't look like a hypocrite. Just slap her on the wrist and tell her she's still pro life - whatever that's supposed to mean ...

reply from: Faramir

Skippy was right.
We should just feel sorry for you.
I'm putting you on ignore.

reply from: carolemarie

Where did I ever say that teenagers would get to have abortions?

reply from: carolemarie

Here you go lying again.
You know what *they* say, "if at first you don't succeed, lie and lie again."
*pro aborts*
Why don't you go call the cops and tell them abortion is "illegal" since you know so much?
You could stop abortion in your own town at least. Maybe you're the only one there who knows it's illegal, and arrests could be made today.
This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. carolemarie gets busted LYING AGAIN and what happens? Fear-a-smear attacks the pro lifer and defends the pro abort!
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=5662&enterthread=y
OBVIOUSLY if I am for the exception I wouldn't be trying to stop her! But the exception is rape incest and life of the mother, not an elective abortion. Try reading......

reply from: yoda

Yeah, scopia said she was going to "educate" carole, or something like that. I'm still waiting to see the results.

reply from: nancyu

Yeah, scopia said she was going to "educate" carole, or something like that. I'm still waiting to see the results.
We don't need to kick her out of any club. She admits she is pro choice.

reply from: yoda

EWTN has a 30 minute program starting at 6:30PM about the 40 days campaign, if any of you get that channel.

reply from: ChristianLott2

OBVIOUSLY if I am for the exception I wouldn't be trying to stop her! But the exception is rape incest and life of the mother, not an elective abortion. Try reading......
You've contradicted yourself. You are a liar.

reply from: carolemarie

You are quoting q post about abortion in the case of rape incest and the life of the mother. NOT elective abortion.

reply from: nancyu

If a mother is raped and becomes pregnant, is the child within her still a person?

reply from: carolemarie

CL2 is just to pathetic to mess with.
He lies and distorts and slanders people and we try to reason with him!
What on earth is up with that!

reply from: nancyu

Yeah, scopia said she was going to "educate" carole, or something like that. I'm still waiting to see the results.
That's real funny yoda. The "education" would have to come before any results, so nevermind them, I'm still waiting to see the education.

reply from: nancyu

This is a great post, and contains many questions I would like to see answered. All of you so bent on defending carolemarie, and assuring that she doesn't "get kicked out of the pro life club" You sure don't seem to have any trouble at all kicking out those of us who actually believe that unborn children are people, and believe in actually treating them as though they are, (because they are!)
There is nothing extreme about wanting to protect unborn children. If you think that's extreme, what are you calling yourself pro life for? What are you doing here? It seems as though some of you are in the pro life movement, not to help it along, but to keep an eye on it, so you can control and contain it.
How about some straight answers to these questions.

reply from: Banned Member

So you condone violence as a way of defending your womb children? You don't think the 'pro-life movement' needs to be controlled or contained at all? With no controls there would be people like fboy & joe everywhere bombing clinics & shooting doctors & nurses.

reply from: yoda

"Elective" means for non-medical reasons.
What is the "medical" reason for abortion in the case of rape or incest?

reply from: yoda

I know. Personally, I think that skippy and rosie just need a little education to be good prolifers, and if I can just get one of them to educate the two of them, we'll have two more converts.... right?
And come to think of it, the President of Iran just needs a little "education" to make him see that Israel is entitled to exist..... I wonder if our friends could go over and educate him too?

reply from: yoda

That's just the problem, fauxers like farismear seem to think that wanting to expose the slaughter is an extreme attitude.
As Father Pavone said, "America will not reject abortion until America sees abortion."

reply from: yoda

What a *****head you are. No wonder you endorse baby killing.

reply from: carolemarie

Very well, I am talking about rape incest and the life of the mother as the only exceptions.
The rest are elective abortions

reply from: ChristianLott2

Then how do you explain this:
http://
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">http://www.prolifeamerica.com/...did=5662&enterthread=y</end quot
did you change your mind already?

reply from: carolemarie

Then how do you explain this:
did you change your mind already?
I was talking about an 11 year old rape victim. Not about elective abortions.
I am for banning all abortions except rape incest and the life of the mother.
I also think counseling for the raped child and family should be mandatory before any decsion is arrived at.
This is less than 2 % of all abortions. While I think having the abortion would be a bad choice, I can't make that decision for a mythical family and child. The option needs to be there so she can feel she made the decision, it wasn't forced on her.

reply from: micah

Carolemarie, you're very similar to BossMamma in that you want to have things both ways. You seem to be pro-life, except when you aren't.

reply from: sk1bianca

that's weird... are children conceived by rape or incest any different from the others?

reply from: nancyu

So you condone violence as a way of defending your womb children? You don't think the 'pro-life movement' needs to be controlled or contained at all? With no controls there would be people like fboy & joe everywhere bombing clinics & shooting doctors & nurses.
Do you condone violence as a way of getting rid of womb children? You don't think the "pro choice" movement needs to be controlled, or contained at all?
To answer your question. I don't condone unnecessary violence and no, I don't think the pro life needs to be contained or controlled in any way. It needs to be set free. It needs to be shown on major news networks, in movies, and on tv. And not just a few so called "pro life" spokespersons saying they wish you would "choose life", but the real pro life people who insist that unborn children are human beings and persons, and must be treated as such --- because they are.

reply from: nancyu

If a mother is raped and becomes pregnant, is the child within her still a person?
I asked her this question sk1, but she hasn't answered me. (I think I'm on her "ignore" list )

reply from: ChristianLott2

She wants us to believe if a rape victim chooses abortion it can't be considered 'elective'. This is contradiction. If she's choosing to get an abortion, she's making an elective choice.
Also, I've heard so many times for other faux lifers that ANY time a young girl get's pregnant, it's automatically considered rape no matter who get's her pregnant.
The other insane argument is that she should automatically qualify for a 'guilt free' abortion because she's too young to have the baby (rape or not). Yet they give a pass to all young girls whether a doctor says it's too much risk or not.
I can't possibly see how a young girl could not carry her baby until viability or a little past without risking the mother's life. That the faux lifers would rather give them all free abortions is just as murderous as any other pro abort excuse.

reply from: nancyu

Rape abortion isn't elective??? So she should be forced to abort if she is raped?????
Speak up CM defenders.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

CLMoron - "I can't possibly see how a young girl could not carry her baby until viability or a little past without risking the mother's life. That the faux lifers would rather give them all free abortions is just as murderous as any other pro abort excuse."
It depends on the age of the girl and her physical maturity. If a CHILD is too young to safely carry a pregnancy to term (according to expert/s who examine her) it just might save her life if she is allowed to abort.
Do you have any little sisters or cousins? You know, about age 10 or so? Some of these CHILDREN are physically incapable of carrying a pregnancy because their bodies are JUST NOT READY.
I has nothing to do with giving them a "free pass" (especially when they are the victims of rape or incest) and EVERYTHING to do with saving their lives and their future ability to have children

reply from: nancyu

But you seem to keep forgetting that it is at the expense of another person's life. What about saving the unborn child's life and her future ability to have children, and not only that, but her future ability to LIVE.
Do you favor legalizing other methods of murder, just in case a difficult situation arises? What if Jack is blocking Jill's exit from a burning building, should we kill Jack, so Jill can get by? Would the ages of Jack and Jill be a factor?
Age is NOT a factor in choosing one person's right to live over that of another. If this situation arises (God forbid) We have to try to save the lives of BOTH mother and child.

reply from: yoda

Rape and incest are not medical conditions. Any abortions done because of rape or incest would also be "elective" abortions.
You cannot sanitize and/or justify rape and incest abortions by saying they aren't elective abortions, they are.

reply from: yoda

That's worth repeating.......
But of course, scopia and sheri are going to "educate" her..... any time now...

reply from: ChristianLott2

That's pro life and that is not what cm said.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Rape and incest are not medical conditions. Any abortions done because of rape or incest would also be "elective" abortions.
You cannot sanitize and/or justify rape and incest abortions by saying they aren't elective abortions, they are.
I'm against forcing a pregnant young girl (age 8-12 or so) to give birth IF PHYSICIANS SAY IT IS PHYSICALLY DANGEROUS to her, no matter HOW she got pregnant. Unfortunately, it appears that most girls that age who get pregnant were raped or the victims of incest, usually raped by older men. They didn't get pregnant through consensual sex with pre-teen boys!
Think about the size of a 10-year-old girl. The AVERAGE size for a girl, age 10, is 4'-3" tall and about 70 pounds. Does that sound like a "woman" big enough to carry a pregnancy and give birth without either killing her or destroying her insides?
I defer to physicians on this matter, not to a bunch of old codgers.

reply from: Banned Member

What a *****head you are. No wonder you endorse baby killing.
I'm sorry I left you out of the list. I just don't think you'd have the balls to do anything, you'd just be a cheerleader for the psychos like fboy...Kinda like you are right now. A lot of talk. But nothing more can be expected out of a dusty old windbag like you. Although, if it makes you feel better, I think you are just as deranged, just more cowardly.

reply from: Banned Member

No, but I don't feel that a wanted abortion is an act of violence. By the by, there isn't a pro-choice movement, see, the law is already on our side.
So exactly what is your defination of necessary violence?

reply from: joe

Let me get this straight, you support the spilling of innocent blood, you actually kill human beings either directly or indirectly and have the nerve to accuse us of being murderers.
How deranged and mentally incapable some people like yourself are will never fail to amaze me.
You are a murderer and without control have proven how evil you are by the amount of innocent blood you spilled. Now run away like all brainwashed pro-choice cowards.

reply from: joe

Caring more about the killers than those who defend the innocent, carolmarie? I didn't expect such a cruel remark from a nice "Christian". Since murder does not bother you, why would words bother you?
You are a fake but of course you already know that.

reply from: yoda

With whom are you arguing? Some strawman you built? You built him, you put a hat on him yourself.

reply from: yoda

Your posts are always devoid of any real attempt to debate. Welcome to iggy land.

reply from: ChristianLott2

With whom are you arguing? Some strawman you built? You built him, you put a hat on him yourself.
Because the point of our argument against cm and bm and the rest is that they never say anything about talking to a doctor, they just say they'd give them the 'choice' to abort.

reply from: carolemarie

no, CL2, what I said was counseling for everyone before any decision is made!
That is standard treatment

reply from: nancyu

I wonder who would do the counseling...

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yeah, the decision to abort, which means you are pro choice. The choice to abort.
Pro life means there is no decision to abort unless the life of the mother is in immediate danger. This is NOT what you believe because you say it's not what you believe - so stop saying you are pro life when you are pro choice already.

reply from: carolemarie

I wasn't talking about planned parenthood. I was simply stating the rather obvious fact that a raped child is a totally different situtation than a teenager seeking an abortion. We were talking about 11 years olds, and I can't imagine telling an 11 year old, oh well, bad stuff happens -suck it up and have that baby. And then we are going to give it away to someone else. She has lost all control over her life, all decisions are made by adults and her voice is totally ignored. She become violated again.
In order to faciliate healing, she needs to regain her power, her voice and make her decisions.
This is where counseling comes into play. She needs facts, to be able to voice her pain and to ask questions. She has to have her feeling taken in consideration, her needs are the focus and yes, the baby takes a back seat. Just like if the mothers life is in danger, the baby takes a back seat in priority.
You seem to forget how old an 11 year old is, just a kid. a fifth or sixth grader. The people making the decisions are her parents. They decide on the abortion because they are the ones in charge of her. Counseling at least lets her speak on how she feels!
Rape is hard enough on grown women, a child is traumatized even more.
I know that the baby may end up being aborted. And yes, that isn't fair. But being raped wasn't fair either. It is a hard situtation.
Thankfully they are rare and we don't have to waste our time on it, unless we just want to claim we are more prolife than others. (another waste of time)

reply from: ChristianLott2

Exactly. So whether she was raped or not and whether a doctor says she's capable or not, you still believe abortion is a compassionate thing.
We pro lifers feel abortion is murder. We can't imagine telling ANY woman (or girl of child bearing age) oh well, your baby is just a clump of cells, let's stab it to death with a razor tipped suction hose and snuff your baby by reducing it to a bloody mess. This is a fantastic solution to your troubles.
What's sick is you actually believe abortion is not sick and evil. This proves you do not care about the womb child as if they were 'real' children.
This is what makes you so different from pro lifers. This is what makes you a pro abort.
And abortion is not a violation is it? There you go again. You speak the same language as every other pro abort and you still want to lie to everyone and say you're not.
You don't know what the*****you're talking about. You can't heal someone by murdering their child.
Sorry, you are a pro abort. A pro lifer never considers a child second in priority. In fact, all good parent's place the lives of their children before their own. Yet you're the one still trying to convince us a born baby is better than a pre born one.. which makes you - - a pro abort.
So stop lying to everyone and get back on your side of the fence murderer.
rofl! So you are pro FORCED ABORTION!
I'm sure forcing an abortion just as the rape was forced will make this young person feel all great inside. You are TRULY Evil.
Yet you are wasting enough time finding resons to force an abortion on a young girl. So who's priority is really out of whack.
You're an idiot.

reply from: carolemarie

Exactly. So whether she was raped or not and whether a doctor says she's capable or not, you still believe abortion is a compassionate thing.
I didn't say if she was raped or not. This is in context of a rape or incest victim!
We pro lifers feel abortion is murder. We can't imagine telling ANY woman (or girl of child bearing age) oh well, your baby is just a clump of cells, let's stab it to death with a razor tipped suction hose and snuff your baby by reducing it to a bloody mess. This is a fantastic solution to your troubles.
I never said to tell her lies! She needs to know the facts...that she is pregnant with a baby, the stages of development
What's sick is you actually believe abortion is not sick and evil. This proves you do not care about the womb child as if they were 'real' children.
This is what makes you so different from pro lifers. This is what makes you a pro abort.
I never said any of that! I said counseling before any decision is made! Is abortion wrong, yes. Is the act always wrong? No. to save the mothers life or protect her mental health it is moral.
And abortion is not a violation is it? There you go again. You speak the same language as every other pro abort and you still want to lie to everyone and say you're not.
You don't know what the*****you're talking about. You can't heal someone by murdering their child.
Sorry, you are a pro abort. A pro lifer never considers a child second in priority. In fact, all good parent's place the lives of their children before their own. Yet you're the one still trying to convince us a born baby is better than a pre born one.. which makes you - - a pro abort.
We are talking about an 11 year old child, not a "good parent" she is in 5th grade, not able to be a parent....she didn't do anything to be in the situtation she is in and is a victim.
So stop lying to everyone and get back on your side of the fence murderer.
rofl! So you are pro FORCED ABORTION!
YES HOW SHE FEELS! What if she wants the baby? She needs to be able to talk and tell how she feels, what she wants
I'm sure forcing an abortion just as the rape was forced will make this young person feel all great inside. You are TRULY Evil.
Yet you are wasting enough time finding resons to force an abortion on a young girl. So who's priority is really out of whack.
You're an idiot.
Like i said, I am fine with her keeping the baby, I hope she will choose life, but it isn't a choice others get to make...

reply from: JRH

Exactly. So whether she was raped or not and whether a doctor says she's capable or not, you still believe abortion is a compassionate thing.
I didn't say if she was raped or not. This is in context of a rape or incest victim!
We pro lifers feel abortion is murder. We can't imagine telling ANY woman (or girl of child bearing age) oh well, your baby is just a clump of cells, let's stab it to death with a razor tipped suction hose and snuff your baby by reducing it to a bloody mess. This is a fantastic solution to your troubles.
I never said to tell her lies! She needs to know the facts...that she is pregnant with a baby, the stages of development
What's sick is you actually believe abortion is not sick and evil. This proves you do not care about the womb child as if they were 'real' children.
This is what makes you so different from pro lifers. This is what makes you a pro abort.
I never said any of that! I said counseling before any decision is made! Is abortion wrong, yes. Is the act always wrong? No. to save the mothers life or protect her mental health it is moral.
And abortion is not a violation is it? There you go again. You speak the same language as every other pro abort and you still want to lie to everyone and say you're not.
You don't know what the*****you're talking about. You can't heal someone by murdering their child.
Sorry, you are a pro abort. A pro lifer never considers a child second in priority. In fact, all good parent's place the lives of their children before their own. Yet you're the one still trying to convince us a born baby is better than a pre born one.. which makes you - - a pro abort.
We are talking about an 11 year old child, not a "good parent" she is in 5th grade, not able to be a parent....she didn't do anything to be in the situtation she is in and is a victim.
So stop lying to everyone and get back on your side of the fence murderer.
rofl! So you are pro FORCED ABORTION!
YES HOW SHE FEELS! What if she wants the baby? She needs to be able to talk and tell how she feels, what she wants
I'm sure forcing an abortion just as the rape was forced will make this young person feel all great inside. You are TRULY Evil.
I still want those bible verses that point to free will you were talking about. I haven't forgotten.
Yet you are wasting enough time finding resons to force an abortion on a young girl. So who's priority is really out of whack.
You're an idiot.
Like i said, I am fine with her keeping the baby, I hope she will choose life, but it isn't a choice others get to make...
I still want those verses which point to free will you mentioned. I haven't forgotten.

reply from: nancyu

Only the mother gets to make the choice to kill her child? Is that what you are saying.

reply from: lukesmom

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
No, she's saying that under current legal statutes, the pregnant woman is the only party with the authority to decide the fate of her pregnancy.
Why can't you say "mother" as pregnant woman=mother and "deciding the fate of her pregnancy" is actually "deciding the fate of her unborn child". Are you afraid of using these words, does your wording make you feel better about killing your child?

reply from: micah

How about she use the phrase "womb child"?

reply from: lukesmom

That would be acceptable too as it names the child as a person. Thank you.

reply from: micah

That would be acceptable too as it names the child as a person. Thank you.
I got copyright of Faithman, god rest his soul.

reply from: ChristianLott2

"protect her mental health"
You upset my mental helath, cm. Do I have the right to kill you?
I wish.
We're all victims, even the baby. Why is the baby expendable?
Why can't others make the choice? If it's an okay choice for her, shouldn't the others be able to make the choice.
What's more, you already said she wouldn't make the choice, her parents would. Are you contradicting yourself again or did you just forget what you just said about allowing her parents to force her into an abortion?
You are pro choice, cm. Hate to break it to you but quite a few of us know you are. Maybe we should do a poll.

reply from: Rosalie

Why would the women testify? Why would they do that?
And you will never end abortion; there will always be unwanted or dangerous pregnancies. Eliminate these and you will eliminate abortions.
The same women who seek them now. For the very same reasons. Eliminate the reasons and you will eliminate abortions. But that would require a lot of things you are not capable of... like logical thinking, compassion, actually knowing how the world works... nah, you can't do that.
If this was the truth, abortion would be nearly nonexistant in European countries. It is not at all expensive to get abortion in many European countries and it is often automatically covered by insurance, just like other similar procedures. And of course since they have better health care system in many European countries, nearly everyone can afford insurance.

reply from: yoda

And yet, she was claiming that someone was saying that a very young girl should be "forced to carry" even if her physician said she was not physically capable...... and no one ever said that.
She just likes to make up stuff.

reply from: yoda

Either the abortionist, or one of his employees, of course! And cm says we ought to "respect" them, right?

reply from: yoda

So killing her baby will make everything "fair" again?
Whose side did you say you were on?

reply from: Rosalie

Oh, look at the true pro-lifer!

reply from: faithman

Killers have to blur that line to justify their evil deeds. Darkness avoids light, because it is exposed for what it is in light. The borties want to cover their issue, and as the profetii killer has said herself," fight tooth and toenail" against the light of personhood for the womb child. Personhood is the light. The line drawn in the sand. The distinction between false and true. If things seem shadowy, it is no time to compromise. It is time to turn up the light of personhood until there is no more "what if" shadows. Just the simple fact of womb child personhood, and the final judgment of citizen jurist as to what punishment for those who destroy the preborn. That is the way it is for the born person, that is the way it should be with the womb child person.

reply from: nancyu

From epm.org
54 Babies
Posted in: Standing for Life
By George F. Will
CHINO HILLS, Calif.: Where Route 71 crosses over Payton Drive, at the bottom of the steeply sloping embankment, two boys, who were playing nearby, found the boxes. The boys bicycled home and said they had found boxes of "babies."
Do not be impatient with the imprecision of their language. They have not read the opposite Supreme Court opinions. So when they stumbled on the boxes stuffed with 54 fetuses, which looked a lot like babies, they jumped to conclusions. Besides, young boys are apt to believe their eyes rather than the Supreme Court.
The first count came to a lot less than 54. Forgive the counters' imprecision. Many fetuses had been dismembered-hands, arms, legs, heads jumbled together-by the abortionist's vigor. An accurate count required a lot of sorting out.
The fetuses had been dumped here, about 30 miles east of Los Angeles, on March 14, 1997, by a trucker who may not have known what the Los Angeles abortion clinic had hired him to dispose of. He later served 71 days in jail for the improper disposal of medical waste. Society must be strict about its important standards.
What local authorities dealt with as a problem of solid waste disposal struck a few local residents as rather more troubling than that. They started talking to each other, and one thing led to another, and to the formation of Cradles of Love, which had the modest purpose of providing a burial for the 54 babies.
The members of Cradles of Love-just a few normal walking-around middle-class Americans-called them babies, and still do. These people are opposed to abortion, in spite of the Supreme Court's assurance in 1973 that abortions end only "potential life." (Twenty-five years later the Supreme Court has not yet explained how a life that is merely "potential" can be ended.)
Some will say the members of Cradles of Love, who are churchgoers, have been unduly influenced by theology. Or perhaps the real culprit is biology. It teaches that after the DNA of the sperm fuse with those of the ovum a new and unique DNA complex is formed that directs the growth of the organism. It soon is called a fetus, which takes in nourishment and converts it to energy through its own distinct, unique organic functioning, and very soon it looks a lot like a baby.
Anyway, theology or biology or maybe their eyes told the members of Cradles of Love that there were some babies in need of burials. So they asked the coroner to give them the fetuses. Then the American Civil Liberties Union was heard from.
It professed itself scandalized by this threat to . . . what? The ACLU frequently works itself into lathers of anxiety about threats to the separation of church and state. It is difficult, however, to identify any person whose civil liberties were going to be menaced if the fetuses were (these are the ACLU's words) "released to the church groups for the express purpose of holding religious services." The ACLU said it opposed "facilitation" of services by a public official.
The ACLU's attack on the constitutionally protected right to the free exercise of religion failed to intimidate, and in October the babies were buried in a plot provided at no charge by a cemetery in nearby Riverside.
Each baby was given a name by a participating church group. Each name was engraved on a brass plate that was affixed to each of the 54 small, white, wooden caskets made, at no charge, by a volunteer who took three days off from work to do it. Fifty clergy and four persons active in the right-to-life movement carried the caskets. Each baby's name is inscribed on a large headstone, also provided at no charge. Fifty-four doves, provided at no charge by the cemetery, were released at the services.
The ACLU trembled for the Constitution.
We hear much about the few "extremists" in the right-to-life movement. But the vast majority of the movement's members are like the kindly, peaceable people here, who were minding their own business until some of the results of the abortion culture tumbled down a roadside embankment and into their lives.
Which is not to say that this episode was untainted by ugly extremism. It would be nice if the media, which are nothing if not diligent in documenting and deploring right-to-life extremism, could bring themselves to disapprove the extremism of the ACLU, which here attempted a bullying nastiness unredeemed by any connection to a civic purpose.

Permissions: Feel free to reproduce and distribute any articles written by Randy Alcorn, in part or in whole, in any format, provided that you do not alter the wording in any way or charge a fee beyond the cost of reproduction. It is our desire to spread this information, not protect or restrict it. Please include the following statement on any distributed copy: by Randy Alcorn, Eternal Perspective Ministries, 39085 Pioneer Blvd., Suite 206, Sandy, OR 97055, 503-668-5200, www.epm.org, www.randyalcorn.blogspot.com
Eternal Perspective Ministries, 39085 Pioneer Blvd., Suite 206, Sandy, OR 97055
Phone: 503-668-5200 I Email: info@epm.org
©2008 Eternal Perspective Ministries. All rights reserved.

reply from: CharlesD

Shame on those radical trouble making extremists for wanting to bury dead human beings. We can't have that happening can we?

reply from: faithman

NAAAAH. They need to be tossed on the road to feed the possums.

reply from: CharlesD

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?

reply from: faithman

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
Then there is that whole pouch thing.....

reply from: lukesmom

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
It is only a true possum after the head comes out.

reply from: 4given

No.. only when it has been issued a SS card. Citizenship is what makes it a "perssum"

reply from: faithman

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
It is only a true possum after the head comes out.
Maybe the borties can take a lesson from possums and pull their heads out too?

reply from: Shenanigans

If abortion is criminalised, it will be a crime to commit one. It will be a crime to procure one.
Supply and demand.
Without women seeking out abortionists there will be no need for abortionists. Therefore, it is defintely in the interest of society, and the legal system, to jail a woman who purcures an abortion when it is illegal.
Maybe cut the murderer a deal and slice something off her sentence if she gives up the abortionist.
It is illogical to support banning abortion, treating the uterine entity as a life, a person, a whatver, that stating that killing such an entitity is murder, and then not treating those who play the pivotial role in their murder as murderers.
You cannot have your pro-abortion cake and eat it too.
(Its crap like those statements of yours that make us all wonder if you really are Pro-Life)

reply from: Shenanigans

And yet the pro-aborts love to claim thousands upon thousands of women died in the back allies of the Pre-Roe days.
If its not technicially difficult to have an abortion, if it can be done at home, why the flying fuzzy duckies do the pro-aborts claim so many women expired in the back allies at the hands of trenchcoat clad perves with coat hangers?

reply from: Shenanigans

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
Unless you live in New ZEaland, where you're free to hurl rocks at those dirty, ******* ****** ****** ********* bastards.
There is nothing funnier then "spot lighting" all you need is a sack of rocks and a torch, go out, find some possums, "spot light" 'em, the turf rocks at them.
We hate opossums in NZL, they're an environmental nightmare.
I hate them with an avengenance.
I AM ANTI-POSSUM AND PRO-TREE BARK!

reply from: yoda

Actually, according to one prominent US Senator from Californication, it's only a person/baby "when the mom says it is".....
We haven't seen that kind of power exercised by one human over another since the days of kings and emperors....... kind of makes you wonder just how much we have progressed on the issue of human rights in the last couple thousand years or so.

reply from: faithman

Actually, according to one prominent US Senator from Californication, it's only a person/baby "when the mom says it is".....
We haven't seen that kind of power exercised by one human over another since the days of kings and emperors....... kind of makes you wonder just how much we have progressed on the issue of human rights in the last couple thousand years or so.
I guess the "goddess" within, can kill the child within. Doesn't that make the "goddess" a tyrant?!!!!!

reply from: yoda

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

reply from: faithman

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

reply from: nancyu

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
It is only a true possum after the head comes out.
Maybe the borties can take a lesson from possums and pull their heads out too?
HeeHee More proof that they are NOT people! Their heads aren't out yet!

reply from: faithman

The real question is this.
Is the possum a possum when it is in utero, or is possumhood something that comes after birth?
It is only a true possum after the head comes out.
Maybe the borties can take a lesson from possums and pull their heads out too?
HeeHee More proof that they are NOT people! Their heads aren't out yet!
Snicker... At least the possums can blaim it on momma's pouch [ the only north american marsupial don't ya know]. But what is the borty's excuse? Is headius-up-rectumous a natural condition with them? Or is it self imposed? Either way, it explains that peculiar brown nose problem they seem to have.....

reply from: nancyu

Why we are supposed to believe everything carolemarie says -- NOT!!

reply from: saucie

I wouldn't believe it was night if she told me until I looked outside.


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