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Abortion after rape?

by: ChildofGod

No question about it, being raped is horrible, and living with this experience is a life-long torture and pain. There are women who get pregnant by rape and decide to abort. Now, many say that she has the rights to do that because she didn't want to become pregnant in such a way; giving birth to this child would ruin her and make her life after the horrible rape even more complicated and difficult than it already is.
My opinion is that if she DOES abort the baby, she will suffer more, not the other way around. She will have two heavy loads to carry; the rape, and the whole procedure and psychological as well as possible physical consequences of abortion.
It's not the woman's fault she got raped, but neither it's the baby's fault he got conceived. Why should we destroy both humans at one fell swoop?

reply from: EllieMae

I agree. Women who have an abortion because of a child conceived of rape, then turns a negative situation into an even worse situation. It is proven that rape victims that have abortions often not only have pain over being the victim, they then turned their pain to a child and victimized.

One crime does not justify another crime. Rape victims that give birth to their children, often feel that they have turned a negative situation into a positive one.

Two wrongs don't make a right...

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

I may have experienced rape, but I have never become pregnant as a result from it, so my opinion isn't very accurate.

There are pains and positives on both sides of this. My best friend is the result of a rape. He knows this and feels the guilt. Theres a pain.

A woman who was sickened by the rape pregnancy into having an abortion may feel guilt later and have the second pain to deal with too.

Many more in this scenario. I can't put all the pain of these situations into one post.

Either way I cannot say which is best. I cannot dictate where a life will lead and where feelings will be spent.

And please don't come up with the 'So you think your friend would have been better off aborted' rubbish that I know some of you will slap around my face.

My friend HAS been through a lot of pain due to the pathetic excuse of a father he has, but for my sake, and his mothers, I could never wish that he wasn't born. He has fought so long..

In this story I believe he is the best thing to come from that man. People can use the excuse that he is a reminder, but she has a reminder of that man for the rest of her life. Not only was she his wife, but he raped her to the point that she has medical scars for life.

Situations are so different though aren't they? There are no two people in this world brought up and experiencing the same things who go through the same situations.

I can say in that situation, the right decision was made for the woman. But who am I to say in others that the decision is wrong when people aren't the same?

Ack, better go. I've written an essay which is edging off topic and I burnt my hand on the oven after spending two weeks in spain desperately sun dodging to avoid burns. Don't you just love the way things work out?

reply from: Tam

Hiya SB. You're never around often enough. We're overrun with fools and folks like you are few and far between. Not trying to lay a guilt trip on you, just saying I wish you'd come around more. But a vacation in Spain is a good excuse. Do you know/like that song "Two Weeks in Spain" by Gentle Giant? I like it and your post made me think of it. If you don't know that band, I highly recommend them.

Your best friend--of course you wouldn't wish he'd never been born. I'm just thinking--I wonder whether my best friend in the world was never born and I never met him/her because of abortion. I mean, I have great friends but maybe some I never knew because they never had the chance to be born. When I consider how much I miss my friends who have died, I can't imagine how much I'd miss a friend I never even had the chance to know. Weird to miss a hypothetical person, but I do feel it--that a third of my generation has been killed in the womb. As for who are you to say--well, you are you, and you are allowed to say how you feel. That's who you are to say. You're not a nobody. You're a somebody. And so is each unborn human a somebody. You have every right to stand up for them even if their mothers disagree. The same way you would stand up for a three-year-old whose mom wanted him never to reach age 4, you have the right to stand up for a child in the womb. We all have that right. The right to say how we feel and stand up for what we feel is right, oppose what we feel is wrong. You do have that right. I mean, if what you want to stand up for is saying the woman should have the right to end the life of the human child within her, well, you have the right to stand up for that, too. Then, I'd disagree with you, but I'd still say you have the right to stand up for what you believe in. So don't avoid taking a stand just because you feel it's not your place. It is your place.

Sorry about your hand getting burnt!

reply from: sarah

People are not the same, that's true. But, there are universal truths and absolute right and wrongs, standards if you will, that should dictate our responses to difficult situations such as this.

Sorry to hear about your burn, hope it heals soon. And hope your friend is able to finds the complete peace he deserves.

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

*giggles* It's okay. Stings a bit. Luckily my girl scouts training came into play a second time. (I burnt my hand a few years ago by pouring boiling water over it... actually there IS a pattern... Both times I was making Italian food It's the Italians! They're after me!)

Okay I'll stop waffling now. (Mmmmm, waffles....)

Sorry I'm not around enough. People around me (Okay, two of them) are trying to talk me out of coming here, they say I'm torturing myself... It is torture a little but who cares? It's just too interesting.

But then too often I joke around so you're probably not missing much

Two weeks in spain? Never heard of it But I think I'll get it. I miss spain, need a memento. I hate England. When I finally decide to start a family, I want it somewhere where I feel safe.

Sorry, I said I'd stop waffling but I still am! It was the break, has brought me out for a limited time only.

Erm... Well! That shut me up didn't it.

I suppose I am allowed to have an opinion, Couldn't stop it if I tried but I just wouldn't want to force it onto a situation I know very little about. I guess thats what I'm trying to say. Perhaps that's the real reason I'm torn on these subjects. Cause I wouldn't want to force people to live how I want them to.

Maybe. Well... Perhaps that's a lie. Theres a lot of people I'd like to force into living how I'd want them to, but I wouldn't put it upon someone who has already been forced into something and is now in a situation she didn't want to be in.

Her body was already used like it was someone elses possession....

I just don't know. :/ *spasms in confusion*

Well, now I've confused myself, lets talk about my poor hand. I think it needs more sympathy to get better *nods*

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

People are not the same, that's true. But, there are universal truths and absolute right and wrongs, standards if you will, that should dictate our responses to difficult situations such as this.

Sorry to hear about your burn, hope it heals soon. And hope your friend is able to finds the complete peace he deserves.

I don't think everyone adopts these universal truths and absolute right and wrongs though. :/ Maybe I just mistook your post. As you can see up there, I've just confused myself

Thanks for the well wishes on my poor hand... It's very bad yknow! I think it might fall off. *puts hand over head dramatically* Alas!

I hope he will too, he will have the emotional obstacles all his life... But his fiance (my friend also ) Is pregnant. I think this'll help him to realise he wont turn out like his dad did.

Thanks for the kind words towards my friend, Sarah.

reply from: yoda

You do realize that by being a part of a society that has many criminal laws, you are already "forcing people to live how you want them to", right? You do understand that all criminal laws "enforce morality", right?

But by making a special case of abortion, you seem to be saying that the many stressful factors that a woman with a crisis pregnancy is subject to are as important as, or more important than, an innocent human life, right?

So the stresses that a mother of a newborn face don't ever become as important as the life of her newborn, but those of the pregnant mother do? How is that possible?

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

You do realize that by being a part of a society that has many criminal laws, you are already "forcing people to live how you want them to", right? You do understand that all criminal laws "enforce morality", right?

But by making a special case of abortion, you seem to be saying that the many stressful factors that a woman with a crisis pregnancy is subject to are as important as, or more important than, an innocent human life, right?

So the stresses that a mother of a newborn face don't ever become as important as the life of her newborn, but those of the pregnant mother do? How is that possible?

*blinks* Yes, I understand the criminal laws force people how to live as I want them to (though not nearly as harsh enough as I'd like) that's why in the next paragraph I changed my mind.

That's exactly what I'm saying, yes. I'm afraid I'll never be as sentimental about unborn humans as you are. You could say I've fallen out of love with my own species. I would change it, if I could.

I am more sympathetic to the humans that are already here and are going through the pain of wishing to abort their own child.

reply from: cali2345

Unborn children are "already here," SB. If they weren't, there would be nothing for the abortionist to kill when a woman seeks an abortion.

reply from: yoda

Sympathy for those who deserve it is appropriate. And falling "out of love with your species" is not so outlandish, although those two statements don't exactly seem in perfect harmony with each other.

So really I don't have any quarrel with what you are saying here. What I disagree with is what seems to be implied by your statements. Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so you can tell me without fear of me flaming you.

Your statements seem to imply that you sympathize with the decision some women make to kill their unborn children, as if you felt it wasn't a serious enough matter for you to object to it morally. Is that what you really think?

reply from: nuke

try to think about it this way. Saying that a women who is raped and becomes pregnant has the right to an abortion is assuming that the abortion is not going to make things worse. this assumption has no marrit. Just from the women health perspective a women who has an abortion is more likely than any other women out there to be dead 12 months later. David Rerden has several studies out that show this as well as studies done here and in great britian. Not only that but think about what she would be doning. how many of us after being violated by a rapist would like to be violated by a sharp instriment a short time later. She is literally being complist with the rapist. Agreeing that violence is the way to act in the world. When she could be turning the whole event on its head and making a serious life long positive contribution to the whole world. adoption is a option. but not the only option. There are many women who do keep the children. Sort of a "I showed you" statement. Imagine how the rapist will feel 5 years later when he sees his own eyes and has to own up to what he has done and mistakes he has made. In fact that would be the ultimate way of getting revenge. Just the child being alive, and him knowing it.

reply from: galen

I have to write this being as a Cathlic on both sides of this issue. I would like for those here to listen to someone who has been date raped and then become pregnant and had the child. I also have been in a family of physicians who do not condone abortion.... but.
When I was a young adult we lived in a southern community with limited rescources. My mother came home from the hospital one day deeply upset. I asked her what was wrong and she stated that she had just delivered a baby from an 11 yo girl. The baby was fine but she wondered about the mother.
I believed in my mother and said that surely they could have given the girl drugs to help her with the delivery, my mother looked as if she was about to cry and said that the girl's mother would not authorize them, as a punishment for getting pregnant.
I dopped the subject as my mother looked so sad and worn out.
This girl ( i have never heard her name) has come up several times in our family as the topic of abortion issues has been spoken about. I learned many years after the fact that the girl child was raised by the family as the sister of the 11 yo. As I suppose she was , for the father of this child was also its grandfather. ( for those who didn't catch that , incest).
The family felt it was the 11 yo fault and if my mother and the hospital had not informed the authorities no charges would have been filed. It was also the family choice to not allow her to be medicated. Reports from friends in the area state that the 11 yo who is now an adult is still in a state mental hospital for her troubles.
I ask you would termination in this case be right?
I was an adult when my child was born and it was hard enough to deal with life then, what did this do to an innocent 11 yo girl with her life ahead of her... I have to ask what if the pregnancy and delivery and the "sister" were never a part of her life? Could she have then gone on to recieve therapy and been a productive citizen?
All indications are that the infant grew up in poverty and still is there today. The father recieved a relatively light sentence. Is he preying on other children.?
Where was everyone??
All the money spent on these movements and laws and protests.... where were you guys when this child was raped??
Why was it allowed to happen at all?
I look at my child and I would not give him up for the world. He has no idea about his conception. I am married and have other children. Late at night though .... when the news gets bad or I see a protest going on in front of a planned parenthood office, I cry for that lost little girl.
I make sure my money goes to St vincent De Paul, and to the homes for unwed mothers. Not to the politicians.

reply from: yoda

Where do you think we were? Do you think we were there? Do you blame us? What exactly is the point of that hostile question?

All pregnancies will terminate. Once an 11 year old becomes pregnant, her pregnancy will end either with an abortion or a birth (live or still). In this case you tell us that it ended in a live birth, and that the girl is now in a mental hospital. How did you reach the conclusion that the live birth caused her to be in the institution, and that an abortion would have prevented that?

reply from: EllieMae

It is a tragedy that incest and rape happen. The law does protect against this, but it still happens. No matter what we do, and where we put our money and our words and our protests, we will not stop rape and incest, but oh how I wish we could.

However, when a child is conceieved out of rape or incest (which is also rape), there is not only one victim, but two. Does it make any sense to continue the victimizing by killing the unborn child or putting a child (in the case you brought up) through an abortion? I don't think so. The case you brought up is sad, and as a person in the medical profession, I have seen this exact scenerio come to light. That is where people need to step in and say "WHY is this 11 year old pregnant, and what can we do to help her ADN the new baby? What steps need to be taken to turn this into the most positive situation it could be"? When a young girl is in labor, no matter her age, she gets to decide when she gets pain medication. We have also thrown parents out in order to talk to young girls alone to let them know their rights and options, and that tehre IS help for them.

There are many ways to make these situations have a positive outcome, it just takes work instead of turing a blind eye and murder.

Now, what if this 11 year old had had an abortion? Would the abortion provider have reported the pregnancy and the incest. NOPE! Would this child STILL have had to go home and indure the same torture? Probably. Would she still live in poverty? Yes. Would she still be a mother? Yes, her baby would just be dead. Chances are, she probably would have ended up in the same position anyhow, maybe even worse with the fact that she had contributed to her own childs murder.

There is NO excuse for murdering a child. NONE! The victimization of one does not give the victim the right to victimize in return. If someone killed you dog just because they wanted to, would it give you the right to inturn kill my dog just because something terrible happened to you? NO! But most people who kill babies give animals higher consideration anyhow...

reply from: galen

obviously you have not seen a 11yo child during natural childbirth.
most do not come out of the situation unharmed either physically or mentally.
hostile? no just sad... not hostile mayb, mad that her father was not punishedas much as he should have been, maybe mad that there are so many more people out there that this happens to. Maybe we should be taking care of the children in ALL forms. I do not see as much money poured into the home for unwed mothers that I volunteer at, as I do for pro- life demonstrations.

reply from: galen

I liked Your answer. Just to reveal how old I am the laws for child abuse differed back when this incident happened.
unfortunately wher we are today this problem still gets swept under the rug. There are real issues when you take any life into your hand. I hope that if the situation were in front of me today we could have swept the girl into our home and fed her , clothed her, and given her good prenatle care, but we are not allowed to do this either, not without money and court and fights. Unfortuately I see more and more people give money and legal time to putting up signs and marching when those dollars and signs and people and thier time could be used to volunteer for unwed mothers. Most of the women I have met there have had one or two abortions already.... they had no idea that the rescources that were avilable at the home were there. Or in 1 case the town had 2 PP clinics and no help for girls kicked out of there homes, and no way to apply for welfare or any other benefits without and address....
As far as Rape.... well as I have said I have my son... and he does not know how he was concieved....but if I was 11.??

reply from: galen

PS Have you ever been raped?

PPS HAve you ever done counseling at a rape crisis centre or for a child in those situations...?

NOT hostile but very curious as to how you have formed your opinions. Again mine have come from actual experience.....I have been raped and I did have my son, for me there was no other option. But the point of telling this experience is that I have been there and I know how GOD aweful the experience was.

back to the 11yo.
Yes according to her cousins she is there because of the experience of giving birth. She got NO meds. And by all accounts she was a little girl with a lot of friends before this experience.

So again we come back to that phrase for the" health of the mother".

What good at all came from this situation? i have failed to see it?
The infant was raised in poverty by a family with a history of incest. By all accounts this infant grew into a child who has no training for society and the 11yo mother is locked into her tourtered mind?
Show me please what good you see in this experience.....
maybe then I can sleep at night.

reply from: EllieMae

There is no good on that experience, but it could have been worse if adding in the murder of a child.

I do not know who you are aiming these at, so I will bite...

I have been raped, I have been the victim of molestation as a child, I have a child who was assualted at daycare, and I am the child of rape. I am pro-life, period! There is NEVER any reason to murder, ever!

You see...it seems that not many people get to go through life without some of these situations, and some of us get all of them!! I also have a cousin who gave birth to her father's child...she gave him up for adoption. She was 12. She now has 2 healthy children at home, and though she knows her father was wrong, she is glad he son went to a loving home. Was it painful for her? Yes. Could she have let it affect her in a negative way? Yes. Did she, NO! There are people locked up in mental institutions because their family was too "normal".

reply from: galen

Again I like your answer....
Actually that answer was directed at yodavater....
=)

reply from: galen

one more question...
How do you feel about the allocation of rescources for this movement?
I must wonder at the amount of money people spend to travel around screaming at each other about this issue, when if half of that money was put into shelter programs and education the numbers of abortions being requested ( or needed, depending on your point of view) would be less. Also if these women had the rescources to improve thier situation after the birth and to keep thier children, without the fear of falling back into the pit of poverty, these children would grow into happy sucessful individuals who have no need for the abortionist themselves. I am talking about private orginizations.... most of what we see from the state is little and none. Adoption rescources in the form of actual community help, not selling children to the highest bidder, would also benefit the pro -life movement, in my opinion.

reply from: Hereforareason

There is truth in what you say, we do need to work one on one with these women. But, abortion is wrong. And just providing an alternative isn't going to totally elliminate abortion. There will always be those who want the easy way out, which is abortion. Abortion is wrong and needs to be classified as such. We can't stop fighting to get it that way.

Amber

reply from: yoda

And your point is? How does that relate to your attempt to blame us for her rape?

And that means it was our fault? Sorry, I don't follow that reasoning.

You must be seeing some very expensive demonstrations. The ones I know about are all volunteer projects, and the cost is minimal. CPCs, on the other hand, require fixed real estate and constant financial support, year round.

Abortion cannot be considered a simple problem, and simple answers like "more contributions to CPCs" will not solve it.

reply from: yoda

No to both questions. Now tell me what is the relevance of either question to your accusations against the posters on this forum, okay?

"According to her cousins"???? This is your basis for saying that abortion would have kept her out of the mental hospital???? All I can say is I am totally astonished at your naive acceptance of the opinions of her cousins.

The 11 year old mother can go through life without the killing of her own child on her conscience, and the child can have a chance at 80 years or so of life.

reply from: Tam

The situation doesn't sound like a picnic, but ... what if a child sacrifice would have prevented it? What if a baby had to be killed on a stone altar and prayers offered to terrible gods, but that would have changed the situation for this family, guaranteed. Would you offer your child to be sacrificed on this altar? Well, how about the baby of the 11 year old? Would you sacrifice her child? Would you kill the baby yourself? If not, then maybe you should think about the experience a bit differently.

reply from: galen

When we are so callus as to disregard the suffering of others , than we are no better than the animals.

Yes abortion is wrong.... So are the things that lead up to it.

People who spew venom and make no real charnge are no better than a spitting cobra than incites an elephant herd to rampage.

80 years in poverty and distress??? have you ever had a mental problem?? How can you judge the quality of an experience you cannot possibly imagine?

It seems that an opinion that is created by experience and information might do more for turning around a problem then getting your dander up at someone .

Why do you feel i am abusing you?

Did I make you think?... If so then the reason for my questions and statements has done its job.

reply from: Tam

By this do you mean

-- in addition to working to end abortion, we should be working to end poverty, rape, child abuse, incest, sexism, and other problems in the world that contribute to women's feelings of desperation that lead them to seek abortions, because in so doing, we will indirectly reduce the number of abortions

or do you mean

-- abortion is wrong, but you guys are too focused on this one thing. You should work instead to end the factors that drive women to seek abortions, rather than wasting your time on the other end of the situation, just complaining that abortion is wrong but not doing anything to try to stop it by stopping the problems that cause it.

I ask because my response will differ greatly depending upon what is meant by your statement.

reply from: galen

My response is a bit of both.

If have watched for most of my life, money spent on over turning Rv W; it hasn't worked.

I have watched many people scream at each other, blow each other up, and generally abuse each other, in the name of thier cause; it hasn't stopped the laws from being kept.

I have watched us rack up social abuses at an alarming rate, due to lack of funds and lack of people who care. But I do see the abortion rate drop in the few cities and towns where I keep track, that have readily available counseling centres and crisis shelters. It seems that when we get rid of the causes of hoplesness that come from poverty, rape, incest, and abuse; people start to respect themselves and others. What was an insurmountable problem (pregnancy) tends to be looked at with more joy.

Education on abortion is one thing. Demonstrations of hate and abuse, while good TV fodder, only show other people how much we can hate each other; and if we hate each other , than we do not respect one another, than why should that teenager or homeless mother believe that anyone is out there to help.
However, time and again, when we show the same teenager, homeless mother or abuse victim, compassion and true respect, and caring, she begins to see how possible it is to love the life that is now inside her.

Yes promiscuity is a problem... one that in my opinion has a social cause....WHY does that teenager feel that the only love she can get is between her legs? Why does that teenage boy feel that the only way he has self worth is to show off his "harem" to the world?

so inconclusion... shouldn't our money be spent on the things that work? IMO I just don't see the yelling abuse and sarcasm working.

My granfather used to say " when you are done beating your head against that wall, you can get into the next room if you walk around it. "

reply from: yoda

It seems to me that you came here "spewing venom" by asking us "where were you when she was being raped". Look in the mirror.

How can you predict the quality of the future life of any unborn baby, and justify it's execution based on your prediction? And how can you judge which lives are worth living? Shouldn't that be up to the person who is actually living that life, and not anyone else?

Don't flatter yourself, you aren't "abusing" me, you're only making yourself look foolish.

reply from: yoda

Then WHY are you here, beating your head against this wall?

reply from: galen

Foolish no I also did not come in sarcastic.... and you acused me of abuse.....

Yes why was no one there for that child why was she raped in the first place....

the argument for judgeing the quality of human life can be seen from both ways. Why should I ?
Why should You?

Why should any of us??

I asked for opinions.... you started acusations.... to me one who won't look at why this upsets them so much, is the more foolish.

I do however read your opinions on other topics I even agree with some of them).... why does this one uspset you so much?

why is it so hard for you to say
I give money and support crisis in other peoples loves.

i can see the 11yo was in a no win situation.

I have compassion for those in need because of rape.

THere are 2 live in trouble acording to your rules.... please then how would you have solvedthis situation.

i assure you there are may hundreds more of these children out there.

reply from: Tam

In need of WHAT because of rape? In need of counseling? In need of justice? Yes. In "need" of permission to kill their children? No way. What did you mean by it?

reply from: yoda

Yes, you did demand to know our locations when that 11 year old was raped, was that not "sarcastic'? And NO, I did not accuse you of "abuse", you must have me confused with someone else, or you are just making that up.

There it is again, only this time you didn't ask where WE were. How do you expect us to comment on why no one was "there for her" when we don't know her or any of her family?

Your posts are becoming difficult to understand... perhaps you are typing too fast? At any rate, I DON'T TRY TO JUSTIFY taking the life of an innocent baby based on my "judgement of the quality of it's future life", do I? That's my whole point, none of us can judge that with any certainty!!

How does that relate to the morality of elective abortion? Answer that question, and I'll respond to your very personal questions.

There are two lives in trouble in EVERY abortion. There is no hard and fast rule that will "solve the situation" everytime that a young girl becomes pregnant out of wedlock. But it is obvious to me that you don't "solve" any situations by making a baby-killer out of a mother, or by killing her baby.

reply from: galen

Compassion for the way they were treated by society and the way thier life would be with, or without thier baby concieved by this mostrous act.

Children of rape and thier families have an incredibly hard time.

thier choices are never made lightly.... I did not have an abortion when I found I was pregnant, many others have.

None of us would be in that situation if the rape had not occured.

We need for society to not blame us, in need for assistance so that someone would stand up for us,
the laws are better now than they were when the incident happened, but not by much.

No I do not condone abortion... but I have compassion for those who felt it was thie only choice, especially little girls who are raped.

Why can't we help them before the act is committed?

reply from: yoda

I personally know many ProLifers who DO TRY to help such young ladies, through their churches and other organizations. But do you have some other form of help in mind? What else can be done to prevent the rape of young girls?

Let me make a suggestion: Help LDI stop Planned Parenthood from protecting men who rape young girls by aborting the resulting babies in total confidence, and never reporting those abortions to legal authorities as they're supposed to. Yes, they are aborting those girls and keeping it secret, so the rapist can rape them again without fear of being caught. Some have been known to bring the same girl back time and again to abort the child they have fathered, until they finally are caught without the help of PP.

Now, that's a good place to start.

reply from: galen

I think you took the question "Where were you?" too literally! =0 =)

There has to be a solution to these problems....

The morality of an elective abortion.... hmmm how do you define elective? She was 11. She was one of many children( under 13) who become pregnant every year.... most girls of that age can not consent to sex or anything like it.

What would you consider an unelective abortion?

As far as giving money and time( they come together...) most people who are reading this with me feel that when they are in deprate need and when someone tells them not to do something, it would help if the person who wanted to prevent the abortion would go a short way and help them solve thier problem, ie; help them find a job, offer to babysit, help buy maternity clothes. Out of 10 women here only 2 became pregnant from promiscuity.

i ask bcause it does seem we are getting our signals crossed here.

reply from: galen

Here Here

we do agree on something!

wait now that's 2!

=)

reply from: yoda

Even as a rhetorical question it implies some guilt on our part for the rape, did it not?

One done to save the life of the mother (which, by the way should be done as an early delivery, not an abortion).

I don't know anything about the abortion protesters you've had experience with, but where I protest we are always willing to aid any mothers who are willing to talk with us. In fact there is a fine, well-funded CPC directly across the street from the abortuary, and we regularly try to refer them there.

Your statements seem to indicate that you've had no experience with protesters who take a personal interest in any pregnant women who ask for help, and I have no idea where you have been. Those protesters that I know about council and give assistance to any women willing to accept it.

reply from: Tam

Even as a rhetorical question it implies some guilt on our part for the rape, did it not?

One done to save the life of the mother (which, by the way should be done as an early delivery, not an abortion).

I don't know anything about the abortion protesters you've had experience with, but where I protest we are always willing to aid any mothers who are willing to talk with us. In fact there is a fine, well-funded CPC directly across the street from the abortuary, and we regularly try to refer them there.

Your statements seem to indicate that you've had no experience with protesters who take a personal interest in any pregnant women who ask for help, and I have no idea where you have been. Those protesters that I know about council and give assistance to any women willing to accept it.

Yes, my experience has been that the pro-lifers are willing to bend over backwards PERSONALLY to help any woman who changes her mind. This is not to say that in order to receive help, you must first intend to kill your child, and then change your mind. That would be another situation in which the child was almost a hostage. No, if you want help with a crisis pregnancy, my experience has been that there is plenty of help, if only you reach out and ask for it.

reply from: galen

yes it does seem that we have had a very diffrent experience as far as protests are concerned.

This is why I and several of my friends don't protest openly.... it does not seem to do any good.

thanks though for sharing your experiences.
=)

U2 Yoda.

reply from: yoda

Sure. Just out of curiosity, where are all these "thoughtless" protesters located?

reply from: Tam

You don't protest because you feel YOU are accomplishing nothing by protesting? Or you don't protest because you feel that protesters are not helping IN GENERAL? Just wondering. I think the idea that sidewalk protesters and/or counselors are achieving nothing is completely false. If that's the idea you have, I'd just like to call your attention to this thread: http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=533&enterthread=y

You may never personally have witnessed or participated in an event involving a mother choosing life for her child despite having planned to abort. It is so rewarding that it makes every long hour of fruitless effort (or, SEEMINGLY fruitless effort--you never know whom you are affecting) worthwhile. To see the life of a child saved before your very eyes--a woman walking OUT of an abortion clinic with a big smile on her face because she knows she can't go through with it and is confident that she and her baby will be just fine--and being showered with offers of help from the sidewalk counselors--you never again wonder whether there is any point to your presence there.

When you ask, "Where were you when that child was raped?" it makes me think, "Where are you when those children are getting slaughtered?" Because every day, thousands of children are slaughtered in this country, legally. And you're not protesting because you feel it does not SEEM to do any good. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, just to make you think. And even though you claim the same motivation as you ask where we were when a child was raped by her father--I wonder whether it is an attempt to change the subject from abortion. Maybe not, but some posters would use it that way.

Believe me, standing on the sidewalk in front of a clinic is no picnic. Sometimes it's scorching hot, sometimes freezing cold, sometimes pouring rain or heavy wind or oppressive humidity, sometimes groups of clinic escorts doing everything they can to make you miserable and feel you're doing no good for anyone. It's easy to get discouraged or to feel nothing you are doing there will accomplish anything. But once in awhile, you save somebody's life, just by being there to offer an alternative to death. And that makes it all so very, very worth the effort. I really recommend that you try it for a year or so, and then re-evaluate whether you are doing any good. You may be surprised.

Then again, if your reasons for not standing outside a clinic are different from or more than the one stated, these comments may not change your perspective. I know there are persons who wish that their real reason for not being there were that they wouldn't do any good, anyway, but whose reasons are far less noble--that they aren't really anti-abortion and can't bring themselves to stand up for life becuase of what their friends would think or some other reasons. So look closely at whatever reasons you give yourself for avoiding the clinics--and examine them with a magnifying glass, looking for excuses masking stuff at which you'd rather not take a closer look. You might find uncomfortable truths about your own beliefs. I only say this because you don't seem to take a very strong stand for life. But I hardly know you, so it's just a first impression--I mean no offense whatsoever and in fact think you have a valuable perspective I'd like to explore more, which is the reason I've written such a serious response to your comment.

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

Tam

reply from: yoda

A much more pertinent question, actually.

reply from: Tam

A much more pertinent question, actually.

Yeah--and it isn't rhetorical like the one it was imitating. Unlike rape, we DO know where and when those children are getting slaughtered. And of course, it's a question designed to return the subject TO abortion rather than divert it FROM abortion.

reply from: Alexandra

I'd like to add my two-cents' worth to this.

You know how people tell you that in order to get through/over a problem, you have to face it?

Having an abortion due to rape is RUNNING from that problem. An abortion will not undo the rape. Child or no, the memory of the rape will always be there. Having an abortion would make things that much more traumatic.

I can tell you that if I were raped, and became pregnant (I'm married but my husband had a vasectomy after our only child was born), I would DEFINITELY carry to term! Now adoption would be up in the air...it would depend on my husband. In fact, I already discussed it with him. I don't want it to happen, but I wanted to let him know where I stood on this.

Not only that, but making a law based on the exception and not the rule is dumb. Pregnancies seldom occur after rape, when you factor in the age of the victim (out of so many rapes, X number were X years old), and the fact that oftentimes the trauma itself acts as a contraceptive.

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

Sympathy for those who deserve it is appropriate. And falling "out of love with your species" is not so outlandish, although those two statements don't exactly seem in perfect harmony with each other.

So really I don't have any quarrel with what you are saying here. What I disagree with is what seems to be implied by your statements. Perhaps I'm wrong, and if so you can tell me without fear of me flaming you.

Your statements seem to imply that you sympathize with the decision some women make to kill their unborn children, as if you felt it wasn't a serious enough matter for you to object to it morally. Is that what you really think?

You're right there, the first two sentiments are not in perfect harmony with each other, and it's a problem for me.

My boyfriend had to hurt a girl for me, and even though I hate her for what she's done and said to me unprovoked, I STILL feel sympathy for her... Maybe there's something wrong with me, I don't know.

I should hate her and feel like her pain is justice because she hit me where it hurt, but I still sympathise with the pain she felt, as I have had unrequited love also.

I think this is how I sympathise with the women who go through abortions. I have felt some measure of the pain they could go through, sometimes even wish I could warn them (though it does little good to a woman in high emotions, a friend warned me, but I thought my experience would be different to hers so disregarded it)

I feel it would be hypocritical of me to object to a decision I have made myself. I feel too close to the issue. Even though I know an unborn child is human. Even though I know an unborn child has a soul. For my life to continue I need to leave this issue and my thoughts on it behind.

...Which is kind of failing due to me being here.

I'll start tomorrow....

I hope I answered the question, if somewhat cryptically. I do try my best :s

reply from: yoda

So far, we are still on the same page.

Now we are in different books altogether. You feel that what you did was wrong, and yet you cannot tell anyone that? You will not share with others the benefit of your experience, and try to keep them from making the same mistake you made? So you actually want to compound your mistake by not warning women heading for abortion mills that they are making a fatal mistake?

No wonder you want to get away from this issue, your conscience must be killing you!

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

So far, we are still on the same page.

Now we are in different books altogether. You feel that what you did was wrong, and yet you cannot tell anyone that? You will not share with others the benefit of your experience, and try to keep them from making the same mistake you made? So you actually want to compound your mistake by not warning women heading for abortion mills that they are making a fatal mistake?

No wonder you want to get away from this issue, your conscience must be killing you!

I don't think what I did was wrong. I don't think it was right. I can't say that if I had to go back I would change it.

I simply can't make that decision for myself. Why should I make it for someone else?

Where do you find these women thinking about having an abortion? Do they all collect up somewhere? If one asked me, I would tell them, but I wouldn't hunt them down.

I can't try to keep them from making the same 'mistake' I made. There is nothing I could say to them. There is nothing I could say that would change their minds. What would you want me to say?

'I don't know if it's right, I don't know if its wrong, it was right for me then. I felt bad after.'

Unless someone feels the pain I've felt they have NO idea of the extent it is. Everyone thinks it will be different for them, and it probably is.

I also don't feel it was a mistake. I feel bad for it, I feel sorry for it, I wouldn't do it again, but a mistake? Nope.

As to my conscience, you don't know a thing about that. You honestly think I'm going to leave this behind completely? You have no idea and don't even care to, so why should you even contemplate it?

You seem to think I have a duty to run like some saviour out in front of women, shouting 'Don't do it!'

Heres a newsflash. This is NOT a movie. One sob story will not make a difference. Just like my friends made no difference to me.

reply from: Tam

So far, we are still on the same page.

Now we are in different books altogether. You feel that what you did was wrong, and yet you cannot tell anyone that? You will not share with others the benefit of your experience, and try to keep them from making the same mistake you made? So you actually want to compound your mistake by not warning women heading for abortion mills that they are making a fatal mistake?

No wonder you want to get away from this issue, your conscience must be killing you!

I don't think what I did was wrong. I don't think it was right. I can't say that if I had to go back I would change it.

I simply can't make that decision for myself. Why should I make it for someone else?

Where do you find these women thinking about having an abortion? Do they all collect up somewhere? If one asked me, I would tell them, but I wouldn't hunt them down.

I can't try to keep them from making the same 'mistake' I made. There is nothing I could say to them. There is nothing I could say that would change their minds. What would you want me to say?

'I don't know if it's right, I don't know if its wrong, it was right for me then. I felt bad after.'

Unless someone feels the pain I've felt they have NO idea of the extent it is. Everyone thinks it will be different for them, and it probably is.

I also don't feel it was a mistake. I feel bad for it, I feel sorry for it, I wouldn't do it again, but a mistake? Nope.

As to my conscience, you don't know a thing about that. You honestly think I'm going to leave this behind completely? You have no idea and don't even care to, so why should you even contemplate it?

You seem to think I have a duty to run like some saviour out in front of women, shouting 'Don't do it!'

Heres a newsflash. This is NOT a movie. One sob story will not make a difference. Just like my friends made no difference to me.

Actually, you're both right. THIS is a place where those women might very well end up, and you ARE telling them how you feel by saying it here. You're telling your truth, and you're telling it publicly. You're expressing your regret publicly here. I think of course those of us who are pro-life would love it if you'd shout your regret from the rooftops, but this is to some extent the online equivalent of that, anyway.

reply from: sarah

Hi SB,
Was wondering if you didn't feel it was a mistake, then why wouldn't you do it again?

And on a personal note and everything else aside, how are you doing these days?

reply from: yoda

Pardon me, I thought you had said that it was "wrong". I must have you confused with someone else.

Right here posting online, and down in front of the abortion clinic.

Enlighten us. If it wasn't a mistake, why do you feel "bad for it, sorry for it, and wouldn't do it again"?
You're absolutely right, and I apologize for misjudging you.

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

I confuse most people at the best of times. Even I'm confused as to how my mind works.

I can't face the abortion clinic, or even the area. I'm barely able to go out sometimes.

I think, to share my story again to people going through what I'd been through, I'd need to be clear in my own mind over what I'm feeling.

I'd also need to do it somewhere I'd agree to. I'd love to do it somewhere neutral, if there could be such a place.

I feel bad for it because I killed to get where I wanted. And I KNOW that she knew I did it. I know in my mind she forgives me, but I can never forgive myself. I did the best for me at the time. I trust my decision. It didn't work out as I had planned perhaps. I think I myself am better off, but sadly, someone got hurt for my sake... so I feel bad for it, sorry for it, but it can't have been a mistake, and I can't know if it was.

I hope that clears things up.

I wouldn't do it again because I'm planning on staying in the relationship I'm in for the rest of my life. I COULDN'T in this scenario. Even if I split with him, I now know I'd have the support I needed.

I've come a long way since I was that scared 17 year old who was very much alone. I think I can finally pick out a man who isn't a complete... yes.

So to do it, when I have a person who I can rely on, would be a mistake.

I also couldn't handle the pain again. I barely handled it the first time.

I should now take the opportunity to thank you, in a way. By talking with me through this, you're helping me establish how I feel. I'm sorry I confuse you, but I am a very confused person. You can hardly expect my mind to be all neat and tidy. :/

Thanks for the concern, Sarah. Erm... almost everythings fine... I'm getting all counselled and stuff, which is giving me a bit of confidence to tackle my issues (such as the obvious) head on... well maybe not head on... shoulder on, shall we say.

Well actually, Yodavater kind of intimidates me. He's a little scary. So I'm scared, yet finding a little of my old strength, fine, in love, a little stable, finding my way, and as nutty as ever. Theres never a short answer with me around. How are you?

reply from: sarah

I'm glad to hear you're getting counselled, SB. I hope you're able to heal and in the process clear up some of the confusion you're experiencing. I'm sure your counselor has told you how you're not alone, that many, many women experience anguish of one level or another post-abortion.
I hope you don't feel condemned or judged here. But, I do have to tell you that it's very encouraging to know you will never go thru with another abortion.

I'm doing just great, and I thank you for asking.

reply from: Christian4life

I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't travel anywhere farther than the grocery store most weeks. And I certainly don't make a habit of screaming at people.

There are 3 pregnancy centers in my city THAT I KNOW OF, and I'm sure there are more, that do all those things you listed. And yet they only save about 30% of the babies whose mothers come to them. Why? Because people are looking for the easy way out.

reply from: yoda

Okay, I'm going to try one last time to clear up the "reason for my confusion", if that makes sense. And I'm going to try not to be "intimidating"... You know, sometimes when people ask us about our feelings, our answers are like looking in the mirror for the first time, and that can be intimidating......

At any rate, you clearly expressed the knowledge that you "killed", and you refer to the child you killed as "she", so you know that you killed a female baby, right?

Okay, next you say that killing your female baby was NOT a mistake........ now that's the part that's still a mystery to me...... how can that not be a mistake? Did you not kill an innocent human being? How can that EVEN be the right thing to do?

reply from: SpiritualisticBuddhist

Oh no, Yoda. I assure you it's not my answer intimidating me.

I've seen you pounce on people for offering an opinion before.

I don't know what sex exactly. I guess and assume. I wont use 'it' in reference. She doesn't deserve such disrespect.

I really don't think you'll be able to understand me.

You seem to try and sway me with innocence and humanity... That makes very little difference to me.

I think I did the right thing back then. The things I've learnt since have made me reconsider. A creature with a soul is a lot different to a blob.

The only real mistake I made was misjudging the effect it had on me and misjudging what the thing inside me was.

It's nice to know you're great, Sarah.

I can't help but feel condemned and judged here. I'm already condemned to hell in a lot of peoples eyes (more than who care to admit it) so I don't see why me changing my ways when my fate has already been determined... but I rarely care about what others think, so long as I'm not hurting them.

As for being judged, people can't help it, so I don't mind it, as long as they try and judge me on what they know, not what they guess. :s Cause that's a little tricky.

But I don't mind I'm a strong little thing really. Maybe. *falls off chair*

And thanks for your concern over that too! You're quite a caring little thing, aren't you? <3

reply from: sarah

I can tell you, SB that I'm not one of the ones who condemns anyone to hell. I don't believe for a minute anyone's fate is sealed as long as they're alive. And I hope you'll come to realize that too.
I do believe in judging situations, but not people. We can never know the depths of one's heart or what's in another's mind completley.
In my view, we can only know in part what God is doing in someone's life and how far they have progessed in the road they are meant to walk.
And thank you for your kind words.

reply from: mom5

Okay, I'm going to try one last time to clear up the "reason for my confusion", if that makes sense. And I'm going to try not to be "intimidating"... You know, sometimes when people ask us about our feelings, our answers are like looking in the mirror for the first time, and that can be intimidating......

At any rate, you clearly expressed the knowledge that you "killed", and you refer to the child you killed as "she", so you know that you killed a female baby, right?

Okay, next you say that killing your female baby was NOT a mistake........ now that's the part that's still a mystery to me...... how can that not be a mistake? Did you not kill an innocent human being? How can that EVEN be the right thing to do?

Okay yoda, a pro-abort aka future abortion provider "explained" this to me... if you want to call it an explaination...

"I regret my abortion, but don't regret the abortion under the situation I was in"

I still don't understand and I 'm sorry SB if you feel like I am speaking for you, but that's they way I see your view on your experience. Good luck to you in finding the truth.

reply from: Christian4life

Just wanted to add that even the Catholic church has been known to offer spermicides to rape victims at thier hospitals as an act of compassion. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it's a heck of a lot better than abortion.

reply from: yoda

I'm very disappointed to hear that. To each his/her own, I suppose......

Oh, so you did make "a mistake"? Okay....... that's a start. And if you had not misjudged what "the thing" inside you was, would you still have killed "it"?

reply from: yoda

Interesting, mom. It's a self-contradictory statement, of course, since the speaker says that he/she regrets, and then doesn't regret the abortion in the same sentence. One really can't have it both ways, of course, because the second part of the statement says essentially that if the situation came up again in the future, then he/she would abort again. That's not "regret" at all.

reply from: sarah

Interesting, mom. It's a self-contradictory statement, of course, since the speaker says that he/she regrets, and then doesn't regret the abortion in the same sentence. One really can't have it both ways, of course, because the second part of the statement says essentially that if the situation came up again in the future, then he/she would abort again. That's not "regret" at all.

You've got that right, Yoda. The LIES people tell themselves to get thru the day, huh?

reply from: yoda

Yep. Sad to see people cling to a lie like that. It's like a drowning person reaching for a straw.

reply from: sarah

Very sad. And very eye opening to listen to them buck when the truth is pointed out. It's convoluted logic at it's worse.

reply from: Annie

I am a realtive newcomer but I used to be a Birthright counselor. At times I would get brochures from the rape crisis center and the secretary told me one day that she had been raped and had an abortion. She said that was at that time 15 years ago and she said she had not only not worked through the trauma of being raped but she also had the added trauma of the abortion. She said the other women in her group had long since moved on with their lives especially the 3 women who also became pregnant as a result of rape but carried their babies to term and two decided to parent. Annie

reply from: Della22

I have mentioned my own story before. And I have to say that had I become a mother to a child of one of those beasts, I know there is still no way I could have murdered the baby. Why is it so hard for women to realise that whether they asked for it or not, it is still their child?

One woman on here went so far as to call the baby she murdered a "demon." Well, I don't think it works that way. She herself would have to be a demon to have one spring from her own ova. If a human female were to have sex with a dog she could not have a cross breed of baby and puppy. It doesn't work like that.

I have met MANY people who were good, upstanding people and their biological parents were useless or worse. My father is one case in point. He took care of all 4 of his children yet he was taken from his own parents at the age of 6 because they were so neglectful. I don't believe in the phrase about the apple not falling far from the tree. I would have given MY baby a chance (notice I say MY instead of HIS) because no matter what kind of biological father my child has, I know what a wonderful mother he/she has, if I do say so myself.

reply from: Annie

I am new to this board. Met Mark in Billings MT several years ago when he did a workshop for Right to life. I did Birthright for 10 years and on occasion would go to rape crisis to pick up and drop off brochures.The secretary told me one day she had been raped 15 years previous to my visit and a pregnancy resulted from the assault. She had an abortion. She said while others in her group had long since moved on with their lives she was still dealing not only with the rape but the trauma of the abortion. She said if she could go back in time she would have had the baby. She said she noted in her group there were 9 women and 4 of those nine became pregnant. She was the only one who had an abortion the one woman had twin girls and parented the children one had a boy and she also parented the little guy the older of the three placed her baby girl for adoption as she knew her husband would never accept the child of another man. She felt that well meaning people pushed her towards a decision when she was least able to make good choices for herself. Annie

reply from: Annie

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reply from: Kate

Sorry just saw this. Welcome to the forums, Annie!

reply from: Annie

I am new here so bear with me. I used to volunteer at Birthright and one day while dropping off our brochures and picking up brochures at the rape crisis center I spent a few minutes talking with their secretary and she told me that she had been raped 15 years ago and a pregnancy resulted. She had an abortion. She said while in group therapy others also had been pregnant only they carried the baby to term. She said they have long since moved on with their lives and she was not only still dealing with the rape but the trauma from the abortion. She said well meaning people pushed her in to a decision when emotionally she was least able to make good choices for herself and certainly for the baby. Annie

reply from: yoda

That's really sad, Annie. Her friends meant well, she meant well, and together they pushed her into doing a horrible thing. Now she'll have to live with it the rest of her life. I don't know how you help someone who aborted without knowing what they were actually doing, and now do know what what they've done. Aside from letting them know you don't look down on them and don't think they're horrible for making a horrible mistake, I don't know how else anyone like that can be helped. I think that's one of those burdens that each individual must bear alone, unfortunately.

reply from: Shamgar

Exactly what crime did the fetus commit, that was a product of a rape, that makes it worthy of death?

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5236/whatcrime1007mv.jpg

The proponents of the death penalty to that fetus had come up with the law of God which dictates it's execution. Or on the day of wailing and gnashing of teeth you will find out what the meaning of "do unto others as you would have them do until you" will mean.

http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/2157/howcanyoutellthemapart1008pf.jpg

reply from: AshMarie88

Pro-"choice" arguement: "Abortion should be kept legal to protect those women that become pregnant due to rape or incest. It is wrong to force a woman to carry and have a baby conceived from rape because this baby would cause harm to the woman’s mental health and personal life."

Pro-life answer: "Although this subject is a very emotional issue for all of us, it is important to realize that the vast majority of pro-aborts want abortion kept legal just as it is now, that is, abortion on demand for any reason during a woman’s pregnancy. Pro-abortion groups use the issue of rape as a way to stir up emotions in attempt to defend the “right” for abortion on demand (which is the same reason they always use the word "choice").

This has been made clear in the words and actions of the pro-choicers every time someone wants to outlaw abortion except in the cases of rape and incest. The pro-abortion groups know what the facts are, and the facts are that pregnancy resulting from rape is very rare. This is why they don’t want laws against abortion except in the instances of rape or incest.

There have been numerous studies performed that prove that pregnancy from rape is uncommon. One such in-depth study found that among 2,190 rape victims, only 0.6% (less than 1 percent) resulted in the woman becoming pregnant. (Abortion: Politics, Morality, and the Constitution, University Press of America) Another study performed by the research group of Planned Parenthood showed that only 1% (one percent) of abortions performed were due to rape or incest. (Guttmacher Statistics from 1995, “Facts In Brief”)

Although it is rare that pregnancy occurs from rape, it does happen. Hence we need to respond to their argument reasonably and logically.

In their above argument, the pro-choicers speak as if the baby is the attacker against the woman. This is false because it was the rapist that was the attacker, not the resulting baby. The baby is as much an innocent party as the woman.

What it then comes down to is: Do you kill an innocent life in attempt to ease the mental suffering of another life? Please do not be under the impression this question lacks compassion toward the woman victim. Rape is a horrible crime and the woman is a victim, but if the human being inside her is killed, isn’t it a victim also?

Many pro-abortion groups claim that pro-lifers are forcing the woman to carry a child she doesn’t want. This is a false statement because pro-life people just don’t want to see an innocent human killed. It was the rapist that forced the woman to become pregnant and carry this child.

This is such an emotional issue that we must not allow the pro-abortion groups to use the rare cases of pregnancy from rape as a way to defend abortion on demand. For the woman that does become pregnant due to rape, the decisions she must make is nothing short of agonizing. "

reply from: yoda

Well said AshMarie. Welcome!

reply from: Skippy

Annie, posting the same story three times doesn't give it three times the impact.

The problem with using anecdotes to make your case is, there's always someone out there who has anecdotal evidence that contradicts yours. I know a woman who had an abortion after she became pregnant when she was raped by her own husband. She took the children she already had, went to a domestic violence shelter, and started her life over. Today, she's happily remarried, has a great job, and a good life.

She says either way, she wasn't going to have that baby. Her options as she saw them were abortion or suicide. I'm kinda glad she went with Option A.

Hearing that didn't change your thinking about abortion after rape at all, did it? I didn't think so.

Every situation is different, and every woman knows what she can handle and what she cannot. Denying a rape victim an abortion that she truly wants is simply cruel.

reply from: Tam

Raping a woman is cruel. Killing a child is cruel. But to blame someone who wants to prevent the child from being killed for the fact that she's got the child in the first place makes no sense. It is the fault of the RAPIST that the woman is pregnant.

"Denying a rape victim an abortion" is just another way of saying "protecting from death the life of a child of rape the same way the life of any other child should be protected."

There is no reason whatsoever that rape victims should be treated any differently -- WHEN IT COMES TO ABORTION -- from any other persons with unplanned pregnancies. That it's "not her fault" is true in rape, but it's also used to describe contraceptive failure, etc. None of this is any excuse for killing a child.

reply from: Della22

I'm not backpeddling here, because I believe ALL abortion is wrong. But typically when a woman is raped she is offered the morning after pill if she goes to the hospital. A lot of rape victims are younger "women" (I call them children because really they are, though pro-aborts would have you believe they are women.) And these monsters who rape them, they take them to the clinics and basically demand they have an abortion. So in essence abortion clinics PROMOTE child rape and incest. But they're doing a SERVICE to these rape victims, right? I hope you can denote my sarcasm.

reply from: Navynate

Skippy,

You think that denying the abortion that rape victims want is cruel? Guess what Skip, there were a group of people who actually did talk to women who got pregnant from rape and incest. And from those 2 groups they fell into 3 groups. One group had the abortion, one group gave the baby up for adoption and one group kept their baby. The group that had the abortion said that their abortion was as bad or WORSE then the rape or incest itself. So tell me, how can rape or incest be horrible and abortion be a good thing when the women who went through both of them said that they were pretty close to the same or the abortion was as if they were being raped all over again? Oh and BTW, the women who kept their baby or gave him/her up for adoption were glad that they had done so and the women who kept the baby said that their baby was a beutiful thing that came out of a horrible situation and helped them to heal from the pain of their rape. And the women who had the abortion said that they added to their pain when they had the abortion. So you're wrong when you say that women need to have an abortion when they are raped or molested. And prochoice groups help to cover up molestation of young girls by older guys. How can you support that? But that's the truth, and it's not because of the goodness of their hearts that cause prochoice groups to do that, it's because they are getting alot of Cha-ching (cold hard cash) to cover up for the child molesters who force the girl they are molesting to get an abortion.

reply from: Skippy

(emphasis added)

Hold on a sec there, nate. I didn't say women need to have an abortion when they are raped. I said, if they WANT one, it's cruel to deny it to them. I oppose trying to coerce a rape victim into abortion, just like I oppose coercing them into having a baby.

Also, I don't believe that all rape victims regret their abortions, any more than I believe that all women who don't abort children of rape are happy with that decision.

Statuatory rape victims (the minors you mention in your post) are a whole 'nother category. When I was speaking of rape victims, I meant women forced to have non-consensual sex, not consensual sex with someone under-age.

reply from: Tam

"Coercing them into having a baby"--blame the rapist for that one, plain and simple. The woman already HAS a baby. When you say "having" a baby, you mean "giving birth to a live" baby, right? She HAS a live baby. The question is, should she be permitted legally to hire an abortionist to KILL that baby?

Also, whether or not all, some, or no rape victims who have abortions regret them is irrelevant. It's nice to know, Nate, but even if every single rape victim wanted an abortion, and those who had them were thrilled about it a la Bobinsueyu, that wouldn't change the facts: abortion kills a human child.

reply from: KarlynsMommy

Hi. My name is Jessica. I am now 18 years old. On September 25 2003 i was raped by a mexican guy. 4 weeks later i found out that i was pregnant. I was devastated. I though about how the world looks at bi-racial children, the fact that i was still in high scool, didnt have a job and also how my mom felt about it. i didnt know what to do. It was hard enough living with the fact that i was raped. Many people talked to me about abortion and all that but i knew that i wouldnt be able to live with myself if i did that. I knew God gave me the baby for a reason. If he didnt want me to have a baby he wouldnt have let me get pregnant. The reason God gave her to me was because i had gotten mixed up in some things in high school. He warned me many times but i didnt listen. I kept my daughter. Now im going to college i have a job and the most beautiful little girl in the world. Im not in anyway happy that i got raped but if that what it took to get her and i could go back knowing that i would get her.....i wouldnt stop it. And when she gets older i will tell her everything that happened. So life does go on after rape and abortion isnt always the answer!

reply from: Navynate

Tam,

Skippy wrote that about being coerced into having a abortion because of rape is wrong to deny them an abortion, not me. Don't give me credit (or blame) for writing stuff I didn't write. I was pointing out the fact that women who get an abortion because of rape have said that their abortion was as bd or worse then the rape itself. And then Karlyn'sMommy gives us compelling evidence that to give birth and keep the baby that was concieved because of a rape is a blessing and gift. The baby is the gift not the rape itself. I also pointed out that those women who do give birth to a baby conceived due to rape are thankful that they did. That their baby is a blessing and a gift as well. Skippy is totally wrong about this whole thing. Even if they wanted an abortion, there are going to be alot of them that will eventually regret it and wish they had never gotten one. Skippy, how can you deny that all the people who belong to Silent No More regret their abortion? Do you think that women will go off the deep end if they can't kill their baby? They need love and support to give their baby life and not death. They get those from prolife groups who love them and take care of them, not prochoice groups who don't give a ratts backside for those women except for their $$$$$$. What group does what they do without charging alot of $$$ for their services? It's not prochoice groups who charge booku bucks to sell abortions. Prolife groups use mostly volunteers who do what they do because they want to help women. Prochoice groups help women so they will get as much $$ from them as they can. One side works to defend life and the other death, what side are you on????? I'm on the side of life and fight against the side that fights for death.

reply from: Amy

Dear Jessica...

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am so sorry that you suffered at the hands of your rapist but even his horrendous treatment of you couldn't strip your strength from you. And had it come to pass that you felt you couldn't have kept Karlyn can you imagine the joy she would have brought to a family unable to have a child of their own? Any way you look at it, Karlyn was a gift.

You're a very special young woman, Jessica...and as lucky as you are to have Karlyn, she is just as lucky to have you.

God's Peace to you and Karlyn, Jessie.

Amy

reply from: yoda

Thanks to you, Jessica, life goes on for your daughter too. Although not every rape pregnancy victim has the strength and determination to protect life that you have, all of them must make the same choice between life and death for their child that you made. You made the right "choice", and now you can face the rest of your life with a clear conscience.

reply from: chooselife

Jessica,

I just recently made this same point to Bobinsky. I too have seen many women turn their lives around because of their child. They may not care enough for themselves to make drastic changes but they almost always want better for their child. It is the child that spurns them to move into a better area, get a better education, make better choices in men, etc. This isn't always the case but I have seen it enough to have hope each time a young pregnant woman becomes pregnant. I too believe as you in that God does not make mistakes. All children have a purpose....it may be hard for us to understand in our circumstances....but if we trust in Him we will be blessed for it. Jessica you have been blessed indeed!! Welcome to the board.

reply from: Navynate

It's nothing but a lie to say that a rape victim is better off having an abortion then to give birth to the baby and keep him/her or give them up for adoption. Why add the pain of the rape to the pain of an abortion. And when women who have had both say that the abortion was as bad or worse then the rape itself, then that says something about abortion doesn't it? They both violate women and rob them of something very precious and beutiful. But God can give them something that is even more beutiful and precious, the life of a baby that very beutiful and precious as well. Having a baby is a blessing that can come out of a horrible situation, that's exactly what women who have gotten pregnant from a rape have said, are you listening Skippy? That it was A PART OF THEIR HEALING!!!!!!!!!!! After they got over the shock of being pregnant and accepted it, then they moved on and were able to see the blessing of the precious life inside them. Karlyn'sMommy you are an incredible lady, (((Karlyn'sMommy))), you deserve as many cyber hugs as you can get. It's sad that more women don't see how blessed they can be with a baby or to give that gift to another couple.

reply from: sarah

What a glaring difference between this wonderful woman, Karlyn'sMommy and tha alter ego of bobinskippy we had here a while back, Sue Yu!

Your life is proof that making the right choice, thru terribly difficult circumstances has a grand pay off!

Congratulations on your daughter and your lives lived with purpose and dignity.

reply from: Tam

Oops--sorry about that, I somehow put Skippy's words in YOUR mouth--ack! The taste must be disgusting to you. I'll go back and fix that post.

reply from: Skippy

You can't speak for all rape victims. Just like some of them are glad they didn't have an abortion, some of them are glad they did. That SOME rape victims have an abortion and regret it, is no reason to tell all rape victims that they won't be allowed to abort. After all, by THAT logic, because SOME rape victims regret NOT having had an abortion, we should require all of them to.

Leave pregnant rape victims alone. They've been through enough. Let them come to theor own conclusions, that they can live with.

reply from: Tam

You can't speak for all rape victims. Just like some of them are glad they didn't have an abortion, some of them are glad they did. That SOME rape victims have an abortion and regret it, is no reason to tell all rape victims that they won't be allowed to abort. After all, by THAT logic, because SOME rape victims regret NOT having had an abortion, we should require all of them to.

Leave pregnant rape victims alone. They've been through enough. Let them come to theor own conclusions, that they can live with.

Being glad about something isn't necessarily the same as being better off having done it than having done something different. As a matter of fact, those two sentiments are worlds apart. Somebody might be glad that he went out and got drunk last night, but whether or not he is better off having done so is not implicit in the fact that he's glad he did.

As for your "logic" that all rape victims should be required to have an abortion--it figures you'd see it that way, Snippy.

As for leaving alone pregnant rape victims--I'm sure no one wants anything for them other than peace and healing. Unfortunately, some people think that somehow peace and healing is achieved through killing. A might odd attitude, if you ask me--sounds like the sort of attitude behind stuff like war and the death penalty, as well as abortion. So many ways in which our society seems to think peace and healing can come only through killing other human beings.

As for letting pregnant rape victims, and indeed all pregnant women, come to their own conclusions, that they can live with--I'm all for that, as long as their children can "live with" their conclusions as well. When they reach the conclusion that killing their children is the "solution" to their problems, that is where I must take a stand and oppose that. Killing a child will not solve the problem of rape, any more than it will solve any problem. There is NO problem to which the killing of a child is the solution.

reply from: yoda

As much as I hate to, I have to agree with you, Skippy. Let's leave rape victims alone, and let them live in peace.

Of course, a baby concieved in rape is also a victim.

reply from: KarlynsMommy

Thank you to everyone who replied to my story. My and I argue often about the abortion issue. Im pro-life she is Pro-choice. And as we argue i make my points she makes hers but it always ends with her statement "what if an 11 year old little girl is raped and ends up pregnant" i never know what to say. any ideas?

reply from: yoda

The first thing to do would be to take her to her doctor. Find out if she's capable of gestation. If she is, then talk to her. Tell her she's already a mother, and ask her what she wants to do. And the last thing would be to ask her who the papa is.

reply from: galen

because this was brought up on another thread i just thought i'd bump up this debate....
For claification the original person who started this persona, "galen' and myself are not one in the same. the original woman passed away a few months ago... we just keep her persona up here at the women's shelter as a memorial. We sign our own names though.

Mary

reply from: pray4em

there's a lot to read here, I plan to get back to this one.

reply from: Uruviel

For myself, I would give birth to the child because "abortion" is not in my vocabulary.

That is all, however. The second after birth, the child can be adopted out.

I wouldn't want to see the child, touch the child, hear the child. Rape to me is a form of murder of the soul even if the victim's body is still living and breathing, and I'm sorry, but I would find it impossible to give love and care to a child of a criminal sexual deviant, even if half the child has my genes. The other half still is the child of a criminal sexual deviant and I would want nothing to do with it. Innocent though the child may be, it is still the child of a criminal sexual deviant and love is something I could never show such an offspring. Each time I beheld the child, I would see and feel the rape all over again.

So I'd give the child birth. After that, let the child go to someone who might be able to give him or her the love and care he or she needs, without having a mortally wounded outlook and soul to blight the process.

reply from: yoda

Well at least you have the decency not to kill the child over the transgressions of it's father. That's something.

reply from: Uruviel

Like I said, "abortion" is not in my vocabulary.

But having said that, there is no law in this land that could force me to love and care for the product of such a grotesque union. So thankfully, there is adoption.

reply from: Tam

Wow--to some people, Uruviel's feelings about her (hypothetical) child of rape would seem very similar to "Sue Yu" and her remarks, but there is a HUGE difference between someone who would kill an innocent child and someone who just wouldn't do such a thing.

See, some women don't want to be mothers, and some do. Those who do not--whether it is a general desire or a specific aversion to a particular child--shouldn't have to parent. It is very unsafe for children to be in the control of someone who doesn't love and wish to protect them. However, there are many families willing to take in children whose biological parents are unwilling or unable to care for them. Hence, adoption.

I repeat: NO WOMAN should have to parent a child! But no one has the right to kill a child, either.

Adoption--the caring option. You may not be able to care FOR that child, you may not be able to care ABOUT that child--but you care enough about decency, fairness, and kindness to do the right thing and allow the child to live!

reply from: pray4em

Personally I think no child left behind applies to prolife more than anything. But the reality of the political arena suggests any right to life law that may come about is likely to include exceptions.

Rape, incest, mother's health and back alley clinics are always thrown up as excuses. Yet complacency seems to be a bigger problem than all of these put together.

reply from: galen

i have to agree with you.

here.

Mary

reply from: pray4em

oh yea, hi to everyone at the womens shelter, that's nice of you all to keep up galen's name.

reply from: galen

TY

Fr Pat/ Mary

reply from: Uruviel

Tam, thank you for that response. My feelings exactly.

reply from: galen

thought i would bump this up as it pertained to several discussions that are in the works.

Mary

reply from: RePit

My two cents;

I am pro-choice so I don't think I need explain what my stance is, it's probably pretty obvious to everyone.

But I find it difficult see how one can be pro-life, but make an exception for rape or incest. One who does so, is either very judgemental or they are logically inconsistant. The way I see it they could be judgemental in two ways (and I have seen some prolifers say as much);

1. They can be one of these "you made your bed you sleep in it" judges. The rape victim "didn't do anything wrong" so they should not have to have the baby, which implies the woman who had consentual sex did something wrong. I find that attitude disguisting.

2. A woman who is raped for some reason is not capable of having a child, because for some reason you judge it 'too difficult' for her, yet another woman who has not been raped may be facing equally difficult circumstances and yet you would treat them differently based on your judgement whether she is capable. I also find that disguisting - really - who are you to judge how hard it is for someone - you can't until you walk in thier shoes.

Nice to see most of you really are pro-life because you really do feel something and want to protect the unborn, and not because you are sexist judgemental pigs. While I disagree with you, at least you are consistant. You need not justify yourselves saying "it will only make it worse for the rape victim" because for starters - it might not be true; as skippy pointed out it may make it easier on her (it only takes one counter-example). You don't need to explain anything - other than say that "abortion is wrong, period".

reply from: yoda

So do many Prolifers, including myself. I think that sentiment exists mostly in so-called Prolifers who have not given the matter much thought.

reply from: galen

thought i would bump this up as it was brought up again...
Mary

reply from: galen

bumping this great debate again....
mary


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