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Murder, dismemberment, trash

by: ChristianLott

Often ignored is the sad fact that pro choicers are not 'just like everybody else'.

I know many people think I'm just name calling when I say a pro abort is a murderer and a butcher. Actually, I'm very serious and I'm telling you this because I don't want you to get the wrong impression.

You (pro choicers) think you can devalue others lives at no expense to your own.

Maybe some of you pro choicers were horrified to find a child molester and his sick crack smoking family murder that little girl in Florida. Obviously these people placed little value on others lives.

The pro abortion - moral slobs - sh*t where they sleep.

If you want your life to be important and precious and others to treat you respectfully you will have to give a 'little'. That's it. Just a little. One tiny baby. Protection for one tiny babies life is all you must give to establish the right to life of ALL humanity.

That one tiny little nudge will then place our civilization and all it's human inhabitants on equal footing and allow us logical safety through the law.

Until then, expect infanticide, child abuse, molesters and molesters who murder children to feel perfectly at home in the baby murdering environment you've set up for them.

They abuse the young girls and send them to the abortion mills with protection and vindication of practicing abortionists, ignoring the law.

Your immoral 'style' you've made clear.

It's time to clean up your act.

reply from: Alexandra

Amen.

Might I add--I know where to get a bumper sticker that says "Only Big Babies are Pro-Choice." It's at the Live Free or Die Campaign Supply, at lfod.com.

reply from: EllieMae

Very well said!!!

reply from: sarah

WELL SAID, CL!!!

They have much laid at their doorsteps. Much to account for, no doubt.

reply from: Christian4life

I understand what you're saying but if you want people to listen to you who don't agree with you, you are going to have to drop the condescending tone. I know it's hard when you're talking to some very hostile, volatile, and often violent people. But I've found I've never been able to reach anyone when I get mad.

reply from: theflyingpen

Why do we mourn for the ILLEGAL loss of life any more than the LEGAL loss of life that takes place everyday in abortion clinics? Great question.

Pro-lifers mourn because we see both as equal, the unborn child, the murdered 7 year old, the battered wife, grandpa with a heart disease, the hit-and-run victim...all human life is equal and precious and deserving to be protected by society and the governement.

But because pro-choicers (some, not all) do not see the fetus as a human, deserving the same rights as everyone else, they are not angry about abortion.

Because they do not see as we do, they do get offended when they're being called a murderer, or a butcher. If I stepped on a bug and had people all over my back about killing a human, I'd be confused and angry as well. To some of them, the fetus is the bug. Why should people get upset about killing such an insignificant thing?

It is our job to try to open up their eyes to what we see as Truth (the humanity of the fetus), and to do this, we have to try and meet them on equal and respectful grounds. If someone approached me with name-calling and threats of damnation, I would refuse to hear whatever else flew from their mouths. I might hear it, but I would never listen to the meaning or truth behind the words.

I might even form judgements of everyone who felt that way, which is what I see a lot of when pro-choicers approach me. They expect me to lash out and call them murderers. Sometimes it's nice to surprise them.

Of course, this is just me.

But even though the message is the same, the presentation can win or lose people. First impressions, unfortunately, last a lifetime.

reply from: nuke

I understand what you are saying and I agree with your sentiment but not with your labeling. How can a person be a murder if they dont understand that it is murder. You cannot deny, and have even argued to explain, that their is a large amount of propaganda involved with the prochoice position. But you must try to understand that women who have committed abortion will for a long time after live in a state of denial. for them if abortion is killing a child then they killed their own child and since they would never do this abortion cannot be killing of a child.
It is backward logic that in many only happens on an unconscious level. But you and every other person knows perfectly well the human ability to lie to ones self to protect onesself from the truth. This is where this board comes in. we tell the truth over and over until hopfully it clicks after some time. And they are able to admit the truth to themselves. If someone gave you a gun they new to be loaded and told you it was not. And you believed them you might then clean that gun in the presence of your son. If the gun then went off and killed your son (cleaning accidents happen about 250 times a year) you would say over and over agian, I did not know it was loaded. You would say it in court. and though you may get charged with man slaughter. (many involved in this sort of unfortunate accident are never charged with a crime.) Nobody would ever charge you with murder. Murder is when a person knowingly and purposfully kills another human being. Why this could certainly be said of many Doctors. Not every pro-abort person can be labeled so.

reply from: mom5

Nuke, this is very much WHY pro-lifers MUST speak out...show the pictures....lead people to web-sites such as this...educate others about abortion, the procedure, what actually happens...

It's our duty to educate the "world" per say and let them KNOW that abortion is the KILLING of another human being....thus everyone will KNOW that they are purposely killing.

Sometimes being nice is necessary, especially when dealing with someone who has had an abortion or is thinking of an abortion...get more with sugar than with vingar as we say in the South.

But all in all..."ignorance" is NOT a reason to NOT call abortion "murder".

reply from: yoda

Yes it is. I was debating on Delphi and that subject came up. My statement was that 1.3. million babies a year are sacrificed in this country every year to preserve the "safety and convenience" of legal abortion, and I don't think that moms who are killing their babies are worth that sacrifice.

reply from: yoda

Laws vary from state to state, but murder in general (in the noun form) is defined as the illegal killing of a human being. However, in it's verb form, the word murder can be properly applied to abortion, IMO.

Thus, abortion is a "murderous act".

reply from: Christian4life

I know. Oh Lord do I know. I don't like it one bit but the fact that I used to be pro-choice I definately feel had a LOT to do with the media's influence. So no I don't hold every woman responsible for her decision to abort. It may be that she just didn't realize what she was doing, and the fact is I've found FAR too many stories from women and young girls who were told NOTHING of the abortion procedure. They were even LIED to, many of them.

Does that make abortion any less wrong, NO!!! That's why we need to be out there showing everyone the TRUTH. Abortionists and pro-choice activists like to hide facts and glaze over procedures. They don't like to face grim reality. They like to present you with sob stories of why women HAD to abort because they just didn't have any other choice. I'm sorry but there is ALWAYS a choice. If you are determined to do the right thing for you AND your child, there is always another way.

The problem I have is with women who KNOW it's murderous and do it anyway because they are "just so emotionally distraught" in their lives. I feel bad for these women, but at the same time, I can't abide by what they do. I'm sorry but YOUR emotional pain is no excuse to kill someone else. Emotional pain passes, but death is forever. If you feel you cannot handle a child, then WOW, great. There are TONS of couples out there who will think you are the best thing since canned tuna if you let them raise that child. There are tons of counselors out there who will help you get through your emotional pain and you will get over it. Abortion solves NOTHING.

reply from: theflyingpen

Hear, hear!

Or is it, 'here, here'?

reply from: Tam

Hear, hear!

Or is it, 'here, here'?

It's "hear, hear!" -- as in, let those who have ears, hear!

And--I agree! Hear, hear!!

reply from: ChristianLott

More than likely, I will not change a pro choicers position by my words. Actually I believe any kind of tone I take will more than likely fail.

I am not here to coddle to pro aborts. I am here as a Christian. That means acting like Christ.

You're not going to get anywhere making pals with evil people.

So as one pro life to another pro life, I don't appreciate YOUR condescending attitude toward the truth I post. See how circular this is?

Now enough reasoning. Go look at some pictures, get mad - and call a pro abort a pro abort. It's disgusting watching people on this forum buddy up to, even coddle the pro aborts. You still think this is a debate. It's not - or more importantly - it is life and death 3,500 times A DAY.

So start acting like it!

reply from: yoda

A few years back there was a chief executive over at Archer Daniels Midland, a giant multi-national agricultural corporation, who made the following statement to his board of directors: "The competition is not the enemy, they are our friends. Our customers are our enemy". That same CO went to prison for price fixing soon afterwards.

Proaborts are our enemy, plain and simple. While we may desire to remain civil while debating with them, never forget that they ARE the enemy in this war, and that civility is simply a style of fighting, it is not a moral obligation. The innocent babies being slaughtered every day are our customers, AND our friends. Their blood cries out for our outrage, it does not cry out for us to become friends with our enemies at the baby's expense.

reply from: EllieMae

More than likely, I will not change a pro choicers position by my words. Actually I believe any kind of tone I take will more than likely fail.

I am not here to coddle to pro aborts. I am here as a Christian. That means acting like Christ.

You're not going to get anywhere making pals with evil people.

So as one pro life to another pro life, I don't appreciate YOUR condescending attitude toward the truth I post. See how circular this is?

Now enough reasoning. Go look at some pictures, get mad - and call a pro abort a pro abort. It's disgusting watching people on this forum buddy up to, even coddle the pro aborts. You still think this is a debate. It's not - or more importantly - it is life and death 3,500 times A DAY.

So start acting like it!

I agree!!!!!!!!!

And also...as a Christian, I want to add that people who think Jesus was meek and mild need to read the bible again! He told people when what they did was wrong. He warned them of their damnation. He would not stand outside of an abortion mill and say "it's okay, we love you when you murder too"...he would say "To murder your child is against my father's will, you must ask forgivness for your sins." He would tell them how they were going to Hell, but love them all the way there!!!

You can love people as commanded, but not love the acts they commit. It commands us in the Bible to take a stand for what is wrong and what is right, and that is what I intend to do.

reply from: ChristianLott

Jesus wouldn't have stood outside and said anything. We all fall short of Christ's glory.

He thew out the money changers and pushed over their tables. For CHANGING MONEY. What do you think His reaction would be to abortion?

At the least He would destroy their instruments of murder if not just call down God's power to destroy the entire slaughterhouse!

You think it won't happen, but this is a war zone. The pro aborts have made this abundantly clear WITH the slaughter of pre born babies.

This is like out of a horror movie - it's just real life! Horror movies are a joke compared to the slaughter of just ONE innocent baby, much less over 50 million!

It doesn't even take you or me to exact God's will. God IS justice and He will be sending the droves of soulless stone hearted murderers to ETERNAL damnation. They have no soul to save!

You make your choice.

reply from: Christian4life

More than likely, I will not change a pro choicers position by my words. Actually I believe any kind of tone I take will more than likely fail.

I am not here to coddle to pro aborts. I am here as a Christian. That means acting like Christ.

You're not going to get anywhere making pals with evil people.

So as one pro life to another pro life, I don't appreciate YOUR condescending attitude toward the truth I post. See how circular this is?

Now enough reasoning. Go look at some pictures, get mad - and call a pro abort a pro abort. It's disgusting watching people on this forum buddy up to, even coddle the pro aborts. You still think this is a debate. It's not - or more importantly - it is life and death 3,500 times A DAY.

So start acting like it!

Well, I still have to say that people are people. And the fact remains that if people find you hostile, they will not listen to what you have to say. And SOME, not all, of your posts come off sounding very hostile. So if you're here to try and change people's minds, all I'm suggesting is to have a little consideration for that.

If that's not why you're here, if you're here to spark hatred for pro-choicers, well, that is not why I'm here.

If you want to start acting like Jesus, be a little more forgiving. He NEVER called non-religious people names. He did that for the religious hypocrits that should've known better, not for sinners who didn't know any better. And what were his last (or almost last) words before he died on the cross?

Do you remember? Because I do. They were "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Not, Father please smite them to hell for being murderers.

reply from: ChristianLott

He called them dogs and sons of hell and vipers and all sorts of names and he talked of entire cities going to Hell.

I think what you're implying is repulsive.

reply from: Christian4life

Only for people who should've known better. These are people to whom signs and miracles had been performed, but they still didn't get it. That and the hypocritical religious in high places, scribes and pharisees who had no excuse not to know God. He's very patient, why else would he wait 400 years before destroying a city that was so wicked it sacrificed it's infants on burning hot idols? He was giving them the CHANCE to repent. Seems you've forgotten all about that.

reply from: theflyingpen

I can't believe I'm reading this! What Bible do you read that says some people are worthy of God's love while others aren't? What Bible says that those who commit sin are without a hope at all? Because if that's how Christianity works, then we are all screwed.

Jesus Christ WAS our hope, and if lying or gambling or blaspheming or sinning in ANY way (they are ALL equally evil in God's eyes) makes us irrevocably damned, then why would Christ have died for our sins at all? Humans will sin, so what was the point?

There would be no point - you, and I, and everyone on this forum (unless they happen to be sinless, which I will go ahead and claim is impossible) is damned to hell by your philosophy. Everyone, not just people who support abortion.

Humans have set sin into a caste system, assuming that what we see as the worse sin of all is unforgivable in God's eyes.

Murder is a sin, just as lying, stealing, and verbally abusing other people with hurtful words is sinful. We are ALL guilty of sin.

Does God "send" us to hell? Yes. But it's our own choice whether we end up there or not - not His. This is a matter of eternal life or death that we DO have a choice in - free will. Accept Jesus and receive eternal life or reject Him.

Saying that people who sin are eternally lost to God or Jesus is disowning and rejecting the whole sacrifice Jesus made for EVERYONE (God loves everyone - even sinners!!).

If I, a human who sins every day but is still accepted into God's family because of the mercy of Jesus, am able to be saved, then yes - even a pro-choicer who shares my same love for God can be saved.

It is so important to reach out to ALL people; all of us, even pro-choicers, were created for God and are loved by him - which makes it that much more imperative to try and show them His love and know His truth will be revealed to them.

Jesus allowed all people to come to him - from sinners to the rich to the poor to the infirm. He loves Christians and atheists alike. He loves pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike. He loves born and unborn children alike.

Showing them the error of their beliefs is necessary, because I can't imagine the pain God feels when His children are misguided by lies and emotional turmoil and sin. I can't imagine the pain God feels when His tiny unborn children are seen as unworthy of their God-given right to life.

reply from: Christian4life

I agree with you completely, flying pen, and I'm glad you say it. I just want to drop this subject though. This is a pro-life forum and the pro-choicers already think this is "just a religious issue" when in fact it is a moral and civic issue.

reply from: EllieMae

Though my resolve is strenghtened by my faith in God, you are correct, God is NOT what this is all about. The BABIES being slaughtered is what this is about...no matter what your reasons for knowing the truth are, you choose to know the truth. We fight to teach the world the truth about these lives!!!!

reply from: theflyingpen

I agree. I'll step off of my proverbial soap box now.

reply from: ChristianLott

Ask Jesus for mercy and peace but His will is done through the Father.

reply from: ChristianLott

Since everyone liked this thread so much, I thought I'd bump it back up to the top.

Anybody care about those stupid 'left over' fertilized eggs?

Let's use them for 'science'.

Maybe we can implant one in a cow, one in a pig and one in a horse. You know, see what happens.

This is research and don't think for a second they aren't doing these 'expirements' over and over around the world.

It can only get this bad because it had the potential to be so good.

It can get worse. Seems like it can always get worse in this forsaken place.

reply from: Kate

I've always found the best way to treat an enemy is to make them feel like you are a friend. As the saying goes, keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.

But I suppose it's mostly because if you sink to thier level in a debate, they just use it against you - and turn around and tell all thier friends how rude the pro-lifers are. I don't try to give them anything to hold against me, but I'm not out to make friends.

reply from: ChristianLott

Keep your enemies closer.

Do you enjoy going to sleep everynight with their 'killing' spirit held close to your heart?

reply from: theflyingpen

I can't speak for Kate, but I know I do.

There are some people I care for very much who believe the pro-choice lies.

I think that keeping their "killing" spirit close to my thoughts and heart while I pray for them everyday is really necessary to change their thoughts and beliefs on this issue.

reply from: ChristianLott

Instead of internalizing it, I reflect it.

It's the attitude of a brat. When they can't get their way they throw a fit and when they throw a fit, they suddenly have more 'rights' than anyone else.

If I went ballistic like that I'd want my friends to hold me down so I couldn't hurt anyone.

These people aren't even THAT considerate. They want to be able to murder at will, on whim.

They can talk down to me, but they will be sitting in Hell for eternity - not me.

There comes a time when there is no more arguing and debating. On both sides of the issue there are only people giving statements.

It should be apparent by now that is exactly what goes on and it's useless to try and play favorites or even act like you have any patience for that kind of garbage.

Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

You will become their partners and henchmen unless you make your true beliefs absolutely known, not couched in friendly terms.

I don't keep my enemies close, I keep them at a distance. I keep my loved ones close and guard them from the predators, not ask those wolves into my home.

reply from: theflyingpen

Even pro-choicers? You act as though we shouldn't care if they come to harm or not.

Seeing pro-choicers as the enemy, I believe, is flawed. If we are viewing them as our foe, how can we truly care to change their hearts? If all we can think about is how evil they are, how are they going to see the truth behind our hate for them?

The pro-choicer is not our enemy; their twisted ideological belief about abortion is.

Oh. Haha, well now this thread makes a lot more sense.

I suppose if I were scared about pro-choicers changing my views, then I too, would completely alienate myself from them.

Perhaps you are not as concerned about abortion as I am, but this is something the Lord has convicted me of. I know which side is true, and which is couched in lies. I hear people reciting them like clockwork to me all the time. The Enemy has done a wonderful job of convincing people of them, even if they're illogical.

And when your loved ones are pro-choice?

What do you do then?

reply from: yoda

I think it's a bit grandiose to think that we can "change" anyone's heart on this matter. That must come from within.

To me it's like waging a "war" against any kind of wickedness in our society. Sure, it'd be nice if let's say maybe arsonists or pedophiles could be "convinced" to see the error of their ways, but IMO that's secondary to protecting the victims and potential victims of these people. Whether they change their views or not is up to them, but whether we protect their (potential) victims is up to us.

Naturally, since I'm agnostic it's easier for me to make the conversion of perpetrators a secondary goal to the protection of those they harm, but I think it's the moral thing for everyone to do. As Prolifers, the babies are (or should be) our first concern, IMO.

reply from: ChristianLott

It has little to do with professed religion. Morality is very simple for those who care to see it through.

While I at least feel a little more comfortable KNOWING these murderers will ultimately go to Hell, I know if there was no Hell I still would know murder is wrong.

I don't want to be like them, I don't want to have to live through their murderous thoughts and in their murderous environment.

The beauty of Adam and Eve was their potential happiness living eternally in God's favor, under His holy guidance.

Once you've undermined the right to life for your citizens, you've destroyed law itself. We live in little more than anarchy in a ball gown covering the entrails of 3,500 slaughtered babies a day.

reply from: yoda

So true. None of our flowery words can remove that stain.

reply from: Navynate

Yoda,

I hate to disagree with you, but it was the love and life a little girl who change Norma McCorvey's heart toward her belief that abortion was right. One of the ladies that worked at the prolife office next the the abortion clinic where Norma worked at almost aborted her daughter (the same one who loved Norma unconditionally) and that made abortion not just a cause, but a face and life to Norma. She realized that it just wasn't a right for women but the lives and deaths of baby boys and girls. That's what changed her heart toward becoming prolife. It was love that prolife people had for her that changed her 180 degrees. The most effective weapon against abortion is love for those who are thinking about getting one and those who have had one (and are suffering for getting an abortion).

Theflying, you are right, the enemy isn't people who are prochoice, it's their sick and twisted beliefs that life isn't important before birth and the consequences of that sick and twisted belief system. The real enemy wins when we see them as the enemy. We need to pray that we will never see them as the enemy. We need to be the salt and light of the world. And fight the darkness that so many people live in every single day.

reply from: Navynate

Theflying,

Have you ever been to a Silent No More rally or get together? The song that they have playing at the end of each rally in January (the week before Roe V. Wade ann.) is Kathy Troccoli's song "Go Light Your Candle" or something like that. Do you know which song I'm referring to? I get tears in my eyes just thinking about that song and being at the SNM rally then. If you go to something like that, you can't help but cry. Pretty much everyone else is crying too, so it's hard not to then. It really tears your heart in 2 when you hear so many heart wrenching stories about their abortion experiences. You walk out of their more determined to be prolife and defend the unborn and love those who have been affected by abortion.

reply from: Tam

Yes, the enemy is a sick idea, not a person or group. But a person or group supporting that sick idea is acting in the service of that enemy. It's a subtle difference but I think it's important to note. I mention it because although I once acted in the service of that sick idea, I now act to oppose it. In other words, the enemy is not changing faces, the enemy has always been the same--an idea. Anyone who supports that idea is aiding the enemy, but the persons themselves are not the enemy. I realize some people choose to see other people as their enemies--but that is part of the problem, in my opinion, not part of the solution. Had I been treated as an enemy, rather than approached with love that enabled me to listen to the truth about the idea behind abortion (the idea that an unborn child's life is worth less than the life of that same child will be worth once s/he is born), who knows whether I would have been able to listen. I know some people think attacking other people head on is the path to success--but I think rather it is the true enemy, that sick idea, that should be attacked.

reply from: Navynate

Right on Tam, the times where I've been the best witness is when I had the love of God for those who I was witnessing to. When I've totally failed is when I've tried to do it on my own and not with the love of God. I wish that people who were going to be mean and nasty would just go home or do something else for the time they were going to be mean and nasty. They sure aren't doing alot of good except raise their blood pressure (and mine is too high already) higher then it needs to be. But they get my blood pressure up when I see people like that and they're doing everything wrong possible. They think that they are doing good, but are mislead to think that. Love is going to win more people to your side of the debate then hate.

reply from: Tam

A study on clergy stress showed that those pastors who felt that the spiritual health of their congregations was their responsibility were far, far more stressed than those pastors who correctly recognized it as God's responsibility.

I would even go so far as to say that love is ALWAYS the better choice when compared to hate. And I don't care who or what contradicts that, that is my conviction.

reply from: ChristianLott

I know it's difficult for anyone to grasp anything outside their tiny minds but if you don't hate anything, how can you properly love ANYTHING?

I am proud to hate those who act like the devil, who are the devil, and who worship the devil. Wake up and realize - more than half of this world is going to Hell. And if you're agnostic you still probably realize if there isn't a place called hell - there should be one for these child murdering monsters.

Now you go ahead and rationalize they and their gory family living in your neighborhood with impunity - but I love my family and friends too much to not hate those butchers for what they are - what they DO, who they believe in (SATAN) and the SILENCE over their blood stained house from people like you who can joke with them, shake their hands and pal around like their's just no tomorrow. It's disgusting.

Norma or not - there is no reason to cuddle, coddle or act as if these monsters are worthy of any respect. They have broken the commandment - YOU SHALL NOT MURDER!

It's over. The bell rung 30 years ago. Make up your mind or muse it over - hell on earth is here.

reply from: Navynate

Right on Tam,

I wish my dad had known that when I was in HS. His BP was sky high then because of the church he was the pastor of then. After he left and went to a church in a small town his BP dropped to that of the teenager (I think he meant a teenager from along time ago, not one now days). But you're right it isn't their job to see to it that the spiritual health is good. They are to do God's will with the people at that church. He retired 2 years ago August 1. Now he works for a farmer pt, and takes care of hundreds of flowers where we live. I'm going to take alot of pix of them to send to a guy I met at the Missions conference I met this past weekend. The guy is from Brooklyn, he was just amazed with the flowers that were on campus where the conference was being help.

reply from: yoda

I'm not at all sure that you have disagreed with me. Having a loving attitude and living your life in a loving way does not conflict with knowing who your enemy is. Just because we engage the proaborts in debate, that does not mean that we should be militant or unloving with those around us. Norma was not converted by a Prolife debater on an online forum, was she? The lady who was an example to Norma was not debating her about abortion, was she? Yes, the proaborts are our opponents, and they are our enemy....... an idea or a belief cannot be your enemy, that takes a person. And you cannot hold a person blameless for the beliefs they espouse, if they are immoral.

Until and unless a proabort activist changes their mind, and their tune, they are indeed your enemy if you are a Prolife activist. To believe otherwise is naive and "Pollyannaish", IMO. Knowing who your enemy is does not preclude being civil, or showing compassion where it is appropriate. It does mean being skeptical and cautious of the declarations of your enemy, until you know them quite well.

reply from: yoda

Put this in a military context. Say the "other side" is firing artillery at you, and throwing bombs. Are the artillery shells and the bombs your enemy, or the folks who are throwing them at you? No, inantimate objects and concepts cannot be your enemy, it takes a person for that.

reply from: Tam

Put this in a military context. Say the "other side" is firing artillery at you, and throwing bombs. Are the artillery shells and the bombs your enemy, or the folks who are throwing them at you? No, inantimate objects and concepts cannot be your enemy, it takes a person for that.

Actually, yoda, I don't have any enemies. It is my choice to have no enemies; I have found that it is a waste of my energy to think of others as my enemies, that it is not constructive, and that it prejudices me against whole people rather than enabling me to fight specific ideas. I respect you and your perspective, but I choose to view life differently. For example, I have a relative who is a prochoice activist. Not as active as I once was, but still. Is she my enemy? Not remotely, and the fact that she is taking longer than I took to reach the same obvious conclusion does not make me hate her or view her as my enemy. She is wrong about this, but that doesn't make her my enemy. If one of my parents had murdered my other parent, well, that would be horrible and wrong, but it wouldn't make my own parent my enemy. I guess if someone is overtly attacking me, I would have to say that that person had chosen to be my enemy, but that is their choice, not mine. I would resist the attack, using force if necessary, but I would not counterattack. It may seem like a very subtle distinction but to me it is a crucial difference. I am not saying anyone is misusing the word "enemy" by applying it to people rather than the idea, but I think that's the wrong way to view the situation.

Here's a question--what if your best friend since childhood, a person who had been through thick and thin with you and done many good things for you and your family, a good and decent person with a huge heart and yet rather gullible, remained adamantly prochoice despite your attempts to persuade him/her otherwise, because s/he believed some things that are not true. Now, what are you supposed to do? Keep trying to persuade your friend? Abandon the friendship? Or drop the subject for awhile and not let it ruin a lifelong friendship? I'm really curious as to what others think of this question. In my case, I choose to drop the subject. I am setting an example, and others will see it and follow. If the subject comes up, I make my feelings plain, but I don't ruin every relationship I have with those who are not as strongly pro-life as I am, which at last count included nearly everyone I know, by antagonizing them and calling them my enemies instead of my friends, by treating them as enemies. What do others do in the same situation?

reply from: Navynate

Tam,

You're right, how can I call my own flesh and blood my enimy. How can I think of my family as my enimy? My political beliefs have really really strained my relationship with some siblings and my dad from time to time because I'm a GOP and their Dems. But that doesn't make them my enimy. You won't win very many friends with that attitude. You try to be the best witness to them that you can be for people who are prolife and hope they realize that they are the one who is wrong and not you. When they see the love for them and others like them then that will make a big difference in their life. It will break down misperceptions that they have about prolife people. And will prove false the images that prochoice people have about prolifers and will cause them to lose credibility in their eyes for prochoice groups. They will see that we have the truth on our side and not on theirs.

reply from: theflyingpen

You never responded as to what you would do if, say your sister, or best friend, or girlfriend, or father, was pro-choice.

How (and I ask out of pure curiosity) are you to treat them? Would you treat them differently than other people?

reply from: Tam

Yes, I know that no matter how much righteous anger was directed at me in front of a clinic, I thought I was protecting women and saving their lives--of course I didn't care what those (http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=482 bigots thought! I knew I was doing the right thing. Of course, I wasn't exactly thinking it through....!!! But it wasn't until I heard the truth spoken in peace and love that I was able to HEAR it. Yes, maybe eventually I would have clued in on my own as a result of angry attacks by those who considered me their enemy--but maybe that would only have strengthened my resolve to defend these poor women against this awful oppressor! I think there's some famous quote about how it doesn't matter what the question is, the answer is LOVE. Do I think love is the answer to all our problems? Yeah, pretty much, actually, I do. Love takes many forms. Sometimes we have to use what they call "tough love"--but there is a huge difference between tough love (such as that shown by Christ, hmm?) and hate. Yes, you may have to distance yourself from certain people who are really lost and difficult to deal with, but that's not hate, that's a form of love--and loving oneself is very important. How can we love anyone else AS we love ourselves if we don't even love ourselves to begin with? Well, I love myself enough to know that the "me" of 10 years ago is not the enemy of the person I am now. We are one and the same. And I do believe in the interconnectedness of all things. Those who think hatred is the answer, I disagree with. Time will tell which approach is more effective, I suppose, if we had a way of measuring such things.

I guess--here's a question to anyone who was once pro-choice and is now pro-life: was your change of heart/mind more influenced by those who treated you with love, as a lost brother or sister, or by those who treated you with hate, as an enemy? In my case, it was the former. Other experiences? You know, I think I need to make this a topic. I'm going to start a new topic and copy this there.

reply from: Navynate

Sorry Tam, I've never been prochoice so i don't know. But I do know that when I have the love of God for others then I'm a better witness then when I'm ticked off or doing it on my own. I will always think that love will get you alot further then hate. Just go to Bush V Choice and read about how nasty they get with people who are prolife. I know, they've pretty nasty to me a few times, even when I do anything to intentionally get them mad. They get nasty anyway.

reply from: ChristianLott

You never responded as to what you would do if, say your sister, or best friend, or girlfriend, or father, was pro-choice.

How (and I ask out of pure curiosity) are you to treat them? Would you treat them differently than other people?

I didn't know I was asked a question.

How would I treat them?

Like any other bloodthirsty lunatic.

I put Jesus (read 'morals' for agnostics) FIRST!

Just because you're related to me doesn't mean you get a free pass to murder.

What kind of person would ask a stupid question like that?

reply from: Tam

You never responded as to what you would do if, say your sister, or best friend, or girlfriend, or father, was pro-choice.

How (and I ask out of pure curiosity) are you to treat them? Would you treat them differently than other people?

I didn't know I was asked a question.

How would I treat them?

Like any other bloodthirsty lunatic.

I put Jesus (read 'morals' for agnostics) FIRST!

Just because you're related to me doesn't mean you get a free pass to murder.

What kind of person would ask a stupid question like that?

I did. It's not a stupid question whatsoever. It's a dilemma faced by millions of people every day, I think. I also think it's pretty simplistic to assume that everyone who supports legal abortion does so because he or she is a bloodthirsty lunatic. I think very few people support it for that reason--most support it out of ignorance or fear or both, not out of some insane desire to cause death and misery. That it does cause death and misery isn't part of their reality, because they've constructed for themselves a rationalization for abortion that includes the concept that before they're born, children are amorphous, irrelevant, unliving tissue akin to tumors. An ignorant but well-intentioned person is a far cry from a slavering madman--and so, too, is even a willfully ignorant person. Weren't you pro-abortion at some point in your life? I can't remember, but I thought you might have said something to that effect. Or at least you must have known someone in your life who supported abortion "rights" for reasons other than a crazed desire to kill children. I mean, heck, CL, if your experience has been that everyone you've known who supported legal abortion did so because s/he was a bloodthirsty lunatic, then I can understand how you'd formed that opinion. I seriously doubt, however, that your experience backs up that remark. Even right here on this board there have been several persons whose support of abortion has not been based in any crazed thirst for blood, at least not that they've displayed here.

reply from: yoda

I think that we are using the term "enemy" very differently. Just the fact that they are on the opposite side of this issue from us defines proaborts as our enemies. We have friends and enemies in this world, are they our friends? I think that if someone says they are Prolife and yet they consider all proaborts to be their friends (or potential friends), they are not very serious about this issue.

That person was your relative before you became Prolife, and that has not changed. I have family members in the same category, and on this issue we are enemies, yes. That does not prevent me from fullfilling my family obligations to them, but it does keep us from being "close friends". I do not want close friends with whom I cannot discuss something as important as abortion, for fear of upsetting them.

I don't think I could have close, frequent, friendly contact with an "adament" proabort. While I have many casual friends with whom the subject of abortion doesn't usually come up, I don't think that I could "drop the subject" and pretend it never came up, if it did.

If I weigh the relative importance of my social contacts to my beliefs on abortion, I always come back to the thought of the thousands of innocent babies that die every day. I consider the struggle to overcome the abortion mentality in this country to be the proper response to a major moral crisis in our midst. To mentally put that struggle aside "temporarily" is to place it in the category of a minor concern, a fleeting thought. I can't do that, because it's not minor to me, it's the most important moral struggle in the world today.

reply from: yoda

Well, this prompts me to do some quoting that I thought I'd never do. But I'm quoting here for the value of the thoughts behind the words themselves, not for their authority. Just tell me what you think of the thoughts in these quotes, regardless of their origions, okay?

"You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a young wife against her mother-in-law,; a man will find his enemies under his own roof."

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters".

"Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?; and pointing to the disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers."

reply from: ChristianLott

What you are is easily surmised when you vouch for the slaughter of innocent preborn babies.

There is really NOTHING else to 'understand'.

reply from: theflyingpen

Hmm. Maybe you understand my posts better than I do.

Because I'm confused - where did I ever say pro-choice people who are related to me/in a relationship with me are right in their beliefs? That as long as I like 'em, they are free from criticism from me?

No where.

You seem to have assumed that I never bring it up in conversation with my pro-choice friends; that it's not something offensive to me; that it doesn't stare at us blankly in the face when my boyfriend and I talk about it. Discuss it. Debate it.

That I don't feel a gleeful elation everytime he's backed himself into a corner, and is only able to shrug his shoulders as response.

Because I know I'm right. And he's realizing it.

Apparently you've gotten the idea that I just shrug my shoulders and pat them on the back before letting them continue on their merry little way.

If I've EVER catalyzed such a thought in anyone here, I deeply apologize.

It hurts to have people you love fooled by pro-choiceness, which apparently you don't realize, because apparently everyone you're close to is perfectly pro-life, from what your posts are implying.

I was not so fortunate.

And if I did treat them as bloodthirsty monsters? Contented myself with the thought that, "Oh, they're just bloodthirsty killers. Why bother with them? How could a bloodthirsty murderer who loves killing babies EVER see them as valuable?"

Then who would be there to remind them almost daily of the blatant cruel stance they have against children and mothers and families and life?

If they were truly bloodthirsty, you would be right. There would be no convincing them. Have you only known bloodthirsty people your entire life?

If God only ever saw humans as walking blots of SIN, I suspect He'd've lost patience with us by now, which is apparently what you've done with pro-choicers.

God is able to see the people beneath the sin, needing to be shown what is right and wrong. People are not born perfect, with perfect sets of morality or wisdom. A child has to be shown the error of his ways.

The kind of person seeking the way in which she SHOULD approach the matter with close ones. Forgive me for seeing this as a point of particular importance; I didn't know you were living in a pro-life bubble. For me, such a life is impossible to attain, or even desirable.

Only through conversion of the people I am with now will such an existance be realized.

reply from: ChristianLott

WHY ASK THE QUESTION?

It's a stupid question. Only a slug would respond in the affirmative.

You can't 'convert' a murderer.

reply from: yoda

Lots of prochoicers are actually ignorant of the truth, and may eventually see it. Others stare the truth right in the face and just shrug their shoulders. The see the truth, they know the truth, and they still don't care. We can do nothing about that.

reply from: theflyingpen

This is obviously a complete fallacy; what about all the former pro-choicers who are here at this forum today? (Whom you considered murderers before their conversions?) They are obviously not "murderers" now --something catalyzed a change in them, whether it was reading about abortion on their own, seeing pictures, or even talking to pro-lifers somewhere and realizing they were wrong to be pro-choice.

Their existence is proof against this ridiculous statement.

If it's impossible to "convert" a murderer, then why the heck are we even here to debate them? Why even try to defend the pro-life position when they challenge us, if not to try and convert them? To show them they're wrong? Oh, but what's the point in them seeing their views as wrong when it's impossible to convert them, right?

If it's hopeless, then forums like these have no purpose whatsoever. Shouting facts in defense of our position is surely not going to convert an inconvertable murderer.

Why are you even here then?

To prove to other pro-lifers/non-murderers that we're right?

We already know that.

reply from: theflyingpen

Ah yes. I've met these too. Sometimes it's so irritating to talk to them that I want to pull my hair out.

But if I lose faith in peoples' ability to change, then I'm afraid I will lose faith in my position as a pro-lifer.

Simply talking to people who agree with you about abortion is not going to lower the abortions which happen in this country.

Talking to those who agree with ABORTION might. Because it's changing the overall acceptance of abortion that will lower the number of abortions.

If I am not willing to try to show people (related to me or strangers) the truth about abortion, even if going into an argument knowing they will REFUSE to see things from a different perspective, then why am I doing this at all, if it's pointless?

If I go into a debate with only the thought of how worthless it is to talk to this person, that they will never change or see the light, then why am I even talking to them in the first place? It's a waste of our time and breath and puts us both through emotional anxiety.

Is my position to only try and convert those who are willing to see the truth? Am I supposed to ignore the ones who rise against my position the hardest?

No, I can't see it that way.

If pro-lifers are speaking the truth, then I have to believe eventually it will sink in. Even if it takes years.

If even Norma McCorvy can change how she feels about abortion, I can have hope for other hard-set, stubborn people.

reply from: yoda

That would only be the case if no one else was listening to what you are saying. In the case of online forums like these, a lot of people read but don't post. Those are the ones we are most likely to reach. They are called "lurkers", and some of them still have an open mind.

Unfortunately, those with whom we debate that are solidly proabort are unlikely to change, and it would indeed be a waste of time to continue to debate them indefinately. To use another religious quote, after a reasonable effort, it's best to "shake the dust off your feet" and move on. You simply must accept that which you cannot change, and you cannot change someone's mind for them. They have to do that.

reply from: theflyingpen

Haha, and what if hearing it all for the ga-jillionith time is what makes them decide to change their mind?

No, I'm afraid this is an area where we will just have to agree to disagree.

I cannot stand to have my friends and loved ones in the dark on this issue, and I will continue arguing with them until I keel over, if need be.

But I do understand the frustration that is felt upon failure, and can sympathize with the temptation just to let them continue believing the lies -- all too many times.

I have to ask though --do lurkers listen as well when they see people on our side damning them to hell over and over? This is what I question - is there a better way to go about it? *shrug* Maybe, maybe not. I suppose we all have to choose our own modes of debate.

reply from: ChristianLott

I know what I do. I find the most interesting post and follow that person around through topics to see what this person says in different situations.

To someone who hasn't 'made up their mind' I want to convey why simple morality is far better than listing the twenty million arguments.

Abortion = murder

We will treat you like a murderer when you vouch for murder, blood kin or complete stranger.

Most of the time I don't read more than the first few sentences of most posts anyway.

reply from: yoda

What if silent witnessing wins them over? Hypotheticals aren't too useful if you don't have a reason to think that one outcome is more likely than the other. I think that we sometimes overdo "persistence", sometimes it becomes like chinese water torture and people resent it. But's that's just my opinion.

I'm sure they see it all, and different lurkers have different reactions to the same things. Each of us has their own opinion about which way is best to go about debating, and that's all we can go by. We can't impose our tactics on our fellow Prolifers/antiabortionists, they have to follow their opinions too. We can disassociate ourselves from their actions when we think they are being destructive to the cause, but we can't demand that they do things our way.

reply from: Tam

Tell that to Bernard Nathanson. Because the only ones who are murderers in this equation are the abortionists, and he was one, committing thousands of abortions and supervising thousands more. And yet today he is a christian pro-life activist, isn't he?

reply from: ChristianLott

Tell that to Bernard Nathanson.

Would you rather a murderer who's killed one in jail for life or a murderer who's killed tens of thousands walking free - a so-called 'convert'?

There is no comparison.

I have little concern for the converts, I'm here to protect babies from being slaughtered.

Once you murder you will always be a murderer. There is no 'conversion to NOT a murderer'.

reply from: ChristianLott

Nathanson and Norma should be outcast from even RTL.

I wouldn't let these monsters into my home even if they single handedly brought down abortion.

I would only expect the same treatment from everyone else here for my sins.

They keep telling us 'let God judge' - well fine, I'll let him judge the converts too when they're dead, it's not my responsibility to coddle the lunatics, conversion or no.

You murder ten thousand or 50 million - may there be no rest for the wicked.

Jesus saves, not me.

reply from: Tam

Tell that to Bernard Nathanson.

Would you rather a murderer who's killed one in jail for life or a murderer who's killed tens of thousands walking free - a so-called 'convert'?

There is no comparison.

I have little concern for the converts, I'm here to protect babies from being slaughtered.

Once you murder you will always be a murderer. There is no 'conversion to NOT a murderer'.

Ok, you are right in the sense that by contributing to the slaughter of the unborn, one makes oneself a murderer, and that it's not something that gets erased by realizing it and changing one's actions so that one opposes, rather than supports, the slaughter of the unborn.

HOWEVER, there is a conversion from "prochoice/proabortion" to "prolife/antiabortion"--it's something that has happened to you, me, Nathanson, Norma, etc, etc, millions of people, more every single day. And it is THAT which was the subject of discussion. So yeah, Nathanson is a murderer, ok, I agree. It's not like some serial killer in prison gets to lose the label "murderer" just because he gets it that what he did was wrong. But that's not even what we're talking about. We're talking about helping those who are still supporting the slaughter to WAKE UP and STOP supporting it and START OPPOSING IT. To "convert" from pro-choice to pro-life. As you did, as I did, and as Nathanson did. Is it, or is it not, something to be encouraged?

It's like--ok, here is another topic, perhaps more closely related to some than to others, but--as a christian, aren't you called to preach the good news of the Gospel to others who do not believe as you do? Do you do this by calling them heathen scumbags? By heaping derision upon them? By inflicting violence upon them? Or by demonstrating Christian love? Do you hate everyone who is not exactly like you? Or do you ever reach out to anyone to help them see the light about anything? Do you ever reach out in love to someone whose views on something are wrong, to help the person see what is right? Or do you cast aside from your presence all who would make mistakes, big or small? Just wondering.

reply from: ChristianLott

'I'm different so I DESERVE respect!'

reply from: Tam

You are so weird that I'm not even going to try to figure out what you mean by this. All I can say is: on the subject of respect, I am sure that you and I have each earned varying degrees of respect from the others on this forum. If I am worthy of respect in the eyes of someone like yodavater, that does make me glad to have earned that respect--much more so than any respect with which I was once held by other prochoicers when I was part of that movement. And I'm sure there are those on this forum who have a great deal of respect for you, too. Shamgar, maybe? My purpose here is not "to earn respect" -- it's to stand up for life for all children, born and unborn. If in the process of so doing, I've earned anyone's respect, great, but that's not my purpose. I'm sure winning the respect of others is wholly unimportant to you -- it's obvious by your attitude that you don't care if anyone has a reason to respect you or not.

I respect you for standing up for life for all children, born and unborn. Beyond that--you've earned nothing. Circular reasoning and broken-record repeating of lies as "fact" doesn't save the life of one single child. Frankly, it's this sort of nonsense that gives some people such false impressions of the prolife movement. So if your goal is to cement in prochoicers the idea that we're all lunatics so that they'll never even consider the pro-life position--keep up the awesome work, dude.

reply from: Tam

Hmm. Maybe you understand my posts better than I do.

Because I'm confused - where did I ever say pro-choice people who are related to me/in a relationship with me are right in their beliefs? That as long as I like 'em, they are free from criticism from me?

No where.

You seem to have assumed that I never bring it up in conversation with my pro-choice friends; that it's not something offensive to me; that it doesn't stare at us blankly in the face when my boyfriend and I talk about it. Discuss it. Debate it.

That I don't feel a gleeful elation everytime he's backed himself into a corner, and is only able to shrug his shoulders as response.

Because I know I'm right. And he's realizing it.

Apparently you've gotten the idea that I just shrug my shoulders and pat them on the back before letting them continue on their merry little way.

If I've EVER catalyzed such a thought in anyone here, I deeply apologize.

It hurts to have people you love fooled by pro-choiceness, which apparently you don't realize, because apparently everyone you're close to is perfectly pro-life, from what your posts are implying.

I was not so fortunate.

And if I did treat them as bloodthirsty monsters? Contented myself with the thought that, "Oh, they're just bloodthirsty killers. Why bother with them? How could a bloodthirsty murderer who loves killing babies EVER see them as valuable?"

Then who would be there to remind them almost daily of the blatant cruel stance they have against children and mothers and families and life?

If they were truly bloodthirsty, you would be right. There would be no convincing them. Have you only known bloodthirsty people your entire life?

If God only ever saw humans as walking blots of SIN, I suspect He'd've lost patience with us by now, which is apparently what you've done with pro-choicers.

God is able to see the people beneath the sin, needing to be shown what is right and wrong. People are not born perfect, with perfect sets of morality or wisdom. A child has to be shown the error of his ways.

The kind of person seeking the way in which she SHOULD approach the matter with close ones. Forgive me for seeing this as a point of particular importance; I didn't know you were living in a pro-life bubble. For me, such a life is impossible to attain, or even desirable.

Only through conversion of the people I am with now will such an existance be realized.

Awesome post, FP. I like your attitude.

reply from: theflyingpen

Thank you.

And I do appreciate everyone else's contribution to this subject. It's something that I'm forced to think about a lot, and seeing it from so many different perspectives keeps it fresh and churning in my thought processes.

Stuff I definitely have to mull over, especially when others get by doing it so differently than I do.

reply from: Hereforareason

Sorry, but with the behavior I have seen from you since I first joined, I have no respect for you. Because you obviously don't have any for anyone else.

Amber

reply from: ChristianLott

Lot defended the evil doers of his city by trying to appease them.

It's over. God destroys the city and saves Lot. Game over.

Listen to you:

"Or do you cast aside from your presence all who would make mistakes, big or small? Just wondering."

Murder is no SMALL mistake!

reply from: theflyingpen

I believe that is why she included the "big" in the quote that YOU quoted. This obviously proves your statement that you don't read other peoples' posts. Of course, I'd never questioned THAT, so this is a moot point.

But I think she was asking if you also refuse to associate/accept liars, or people who have lied in the past, according to your stance on past pro-choicers, or with thiefs, or, of course, anyone who's ever stolen something in their past, or with drug addicts --or of course, anyone who's ever done drugs in their past...

What about people who were atheist before they were Christian? Are they still lost/not worth your time now? I mean, rejecting God's a pretty "big" mistake... How can they ever get over that?

reply from: ChristianLott

She includes small, you include small - but I never said a word about small - only that I'm talking about BIG!

)*&(%%(*)(*&)(*^)*)*&^**&$$#^@@&#*%&*

blahblahblahblahblahblahblah

blahblahblahblahblah

blahblahblahblahblah

blahblahblah

MURDER!!!!!!!

*&%*(*)(*&get a )(&O&&clue!!!^%*&!(*&

reply from: theflyingpen

Well, it's been pointed out how pro-choicers avoid answering questions.

Now we all know how CL avoids them.

reply from: ChristianLott

CHAPTER 13 — ACHIEVING THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR THROUGH TRANSFERENCE

American Life League

reply from: ChristianLott

Change the subject, that's all you can do.

reply from: AshMarie88

Tell that to Bernard Nathanson.

Would you rather a murderer who's killed one in jail for life or a murderer who's killed tens of thousands walking free - a so-called 'convert'?

There is no comparison.

I have little concern for the converts, I'm here to protect babies from being slaughtered.

Once you murder you will always be a murderer. There is no 'conversion to NOT a murderer'.

You are correct. Once a murderer, always a murderer. BUT, with the forgiveness of God and Jesus, and the power to change your ways and views (pro-choice to pro-life), it makes someone a better person, and they have enough knowledge to know that they won't ever make that same mistake again.

We all make mistakes, we all sin. We're human, it's impossible to not make mistakes.

If a former pro-choicer converted to being a pro-lifer, all the more power to them for making a right decision.

reply from: sarah

Well said, Ash!

When we repent God has said He is faithful and just to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness!

reply from: Amy

Tell that to Bernard Nathanson.

Would you rather a murderer who's killed one in jail for life or a murderer who's killed tens of thousands walking free - a so-called 'convert'?

There is no comparison.

I have little concern for the converts, I'm here to protect babies from being slaughtered.

Once you murder you will always be a murderer. There is no 'conversion to NOT a murderer'.

Well CL, you're just going to have to find another term. Unless Tam had, ordered or performed an abortion she did not murder anyone. If we're sticking to a factual sense, that is. You may be able to twist and intimidate her in to relenting on the terms...the fact still remains, with the exception of those examples, no murder was committed by her directly. If inaction or being mislead/ignorant to the truth of things makes one personally responsible for all manner of injustices...well then we're all doomed aren't we? But then we both know that is not the case.

You know CL, while going through this thread one word keeps popping up over and again...condemnation. It is not your place, and you know it. As well, if you continue on this path you do injustice on the highest level...you turn people from His Word, from His presence, through your condemnation...which is exactly why that particular action was left only to Him.

For me...I will simply thank God for people like Tam. She understands how others come by a perspective I may not be privy to, she's been strong enough to put reason to things and come out with truth on her side, and she distributes her views evenly and with strength of conviction that brings us all a better ability to combat the lies abortionists bring to the table.

It appears to me that your perceived guilt guides you to throw an awful lot of self-righteously typed words around...but again...as Christians we are supposed to live in His Word...not our own. As well, you know that all good deeds are tempered with and in His example.

I am disappointed on an intellectual level and in a Christian context with your tact...you condemn and allow altogether too much hate to flavor your perspective.

Amy

"Abortion is a reflection that our society has failed to meet the needs of women. Women deserve better than abortion."

reply from: ChristianLott

The General Principle.

Psychologists are intimately familiar with the technique of negative attribution, or "transference."

Simply stated, a person who commits immoral activities can assuage his conscience by only one of two methods: by ceasing the objectionable activities or by pulling everyone else down to his level.

The latter course of action is the easiest, of course, and is accomplished by alleging that everyone commits the same immoral activities. After all, if everyone is doing illegal or immoral things, nobody can pass judgment on anyone else!

reply from: Skippy

I think you're being awfully hard on Not Necessarily Normal Norma, christianlott. After all, she never actually had an abortion, with any of her pregnancies, let alone the one that was the basis for Roe v. Wade. In that sense, she's no more guilty than any other woman who ardently supports abortion rights, but who has never availed herself of those rights.

I wasn't sorry when ol' Norma "jumped the fence", so to speak. She always struck me as the sort who would cuddle up to whomever would pay her the most attention, and she was a pretty lame spokesperson for our side. She's still an attention whore, but now she's a lame spokesperson for YOUR side. Enjoy.

reply from: Tam

You know, I've been thinking about this since last evening, and I just cannot see myself as a murderer. So even though it's possible to twist logic enough to make the label stick indirectly--sure, I condoned abortion, I contributed to the pro-choice movement, so I participated in murder, ok--but it just doesn't seem rational to attribute to me the label of murderer. You may wear it with pride or shame or whatever you feel about it, CL, but I have changed my mind, back to what I knew was true yesterday morning--I am NOT a murderer--never have been, and never intend to be. Yes, I supported abortion "choice" and even accompanied a friend to the clinic for her abortion (although it was one I tried to talk her out of, it was really a shame), and I am not proud of those activities. But I don't think they make me a murderer. And frankly, CL, I don't think you're a murderer, either.

reply from: ChristianLott

I think you're being awfully hard on Not Necessarily Normal Norma, christianlott. After all, she never actually had an abortion, with any of her pregnancies, let alone the one that was the basis for Roe v. Wade. In that sense, she's no more guilty than any other woman who ardently supports abortion rights, but who has never availed herself of those rights.

I wasn't sorry when ol' Norma "jumped the fence", so to speak. She always struck me as the sort who would cuddle up to whomever would pay her the most attention, and she was a pretty lame spokesperson for our side. She's still an attention whore, but now she's a lame spokesperson for YOUR side. Enjoy.

SHE HELPED USHER IN THE ABORTION HOLOCAUST!

SHE WAS AN ABORTION NURSE!

I don't take anything you say seriously, Skip. You're a ruthless cold blooded murder and you haven't even repented. Eternal damnation is your just reward.

reply from: ChristianLott

You know, I've been thinking about this since last evening, and I just cannot see myself as a murderer. So even though it's possible to twist logic enough to make the label stick indirectly--sure, I condoned abortion, I contributed to the pro-choice movement, so I participated in murder, ok--but it just doesn't seem rational to attribute to me the label of murderer. You may wear it with pride or shame or whatever you feel about it, CL, but I have changed my mind, back to what I knew was true yesterday morning--I am NOT a murderer--never have been, and never intend to be. Yes, I supported abortion "choice" and even accompanied a friend to the clinic for her abortion (although it was one I tried to talk her out of, it was really a shame), and I am not proud of those activities. But I don't think they make me a murderer. And frankly, CL, I don't think you're a murderer, either.

Now you're going to Hell, whether you believe it or not.

reply from: Skippy

I don't take anything you say seriously either, christianlott.

*smooch*

Now, answer a question for me, if you would be so kind. I realize your god makes the rules and you are only sharing your interpretation of them, but I'm very curious. You seem to think that SOME people, even if they repent, are beyond redemption by your god. Is that a correct assessment of your beliefs? And if so, who falls into that category? Or more accurately, what sort of sin falls into that category?

reply from: theflyingpen

So I read your little article CL, and I'm still confused. I'm supposing that this is where you've siphoned this authority to condemn others from. . .?

I can agree with some of its finer points, but I'm still wondering why it singles out homosexuality and abortion as the sins above all sins...maybe you can explain that one to me at a later time.

Though I can see Christians as having a line between them and non-Christians (we should seem different than others), I don't see anything in the article defining or explaining why pro-choicers are "bloodthirsty lunatics."

I've never personally known a pro-choicer who was "eager to shed blood" or was "characterized by great carnage," or for that matter, who was suffering from insanity or mental degredation (perhaps moral degredation, in my eyes, but not mental). Maybe this is why I can't agree with you on this.

So if you can warrant and prove to me that all pro-choicers take great glee in blood shed, then I will stop asking "stupid questions."

Maybe this is just me, but I've never personally met someone who loved abortion either--pro-choice or not. They believe it is necessary, but they don't wish for women to "need" them, or for the numbers to rise.

Of course, I disagree with that mentality. Which is why they are pro-choice and I am not.

But that doesn't make them lunatics. Different than me, yes. But bloodthirsty? No.

reply from: Tam

You know, I've been thinking about this since last evening, and I just cannot see myself as a murderer. So even though it's possible to twist logic enough to make the label stick indirectly--sure, I condoned abortion, I contributed to the pro-choice movement, so I participated in murder, ok--but it just doesn't seem rational to attribute to me the label of murderer. You may wear it with pride or shame or whatever you feel about it, CL, but I have changed my mind, back to what I knew was true yesterday morning--I am NOT a murderer--never have been, and never intend to be. Yes, I supported abortion "choice" and even accompanied a friend to the clinic for her abortion (although it was one I tried to talk her out of, it was really a shame), and I am not proud of those activities. But I don't think they make me a murderer. And frankly, CL, I don't think you're a murderer, either.

Now you're going to Hell, whether you believe it or not.

Whatever.

reply from: ChristianLott

I don't take anything you say seriously either, christianlott.

*smooch*

Now, answer a question for me, if you would be so kind. I realize your god makes the rules and you are only sharing your interpretation of them, but I'm very curious. You seem to think that SOME people, even if they repent, are beyond redemption by your god. Is that a correct assessment of your beliefs? And if so, who falls into that category? Or more accurately, what sort of sin falls into that category?

That is an incorrect assessment.

reply from: Hereforareason

CL, since you insist on wearing the name Christian, explain yourself. where in the bible does it teach that someone who has done wrong and repented for it is still heading for hell?

Amber

reply from: ForLife

CL, since you insist on wearing the name Christian, explain yourself. where in the bible does it teach that someone who has done wrong and repented for it is still heading for hell?

Amber

ChristianLott and Shamgar do seem very fire and brimstone.

Ezekiel 18:21-23 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God, and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

Like Jesus said in the parable of the wheat and weeds, we will not know until the harvest who is wheat and who is a weed. As long as we are alive, we can make a decision to repent, forsake our evil thoughts and ways, and live righteously according to God's law. If we do this, we shall be forgiven and receive eternal life. It doesn't matter what we did before (we did, however, cause a lot of pain and grief as sinners).

reply from: AshMarie88

You know, I've been thinking about this since last evening, and I just cannot see myself as a murderer. So even though it's possible to twist logic enough to make the label stick indirectly--sure, I condoned abortion, I contributed to the pro-choice movement, so I participated in murder, ok--but it just doesn't seem rational to attribute to me the label of murderer. You may wear it with pride or shame or whatever you feel about it, CL, but I have changed my mind, back to what I knew was true yesterday morning--I am NOT a murderer--never have been, and never intend to be. Yes, I supported abortion "choice" and even accompanied a friend to the clinic for her abortion (although it was one I tried to talk her out of, it was really a shame), and I am not proud of those activities. But I don't think they make me a murderer. And frankly, CL, I don't think you're a murderer, either.

Now you're going to Hell, whether you believe it or not.

No, she won't go to hell. If she repents and if she is forgiven by Jesus and God, she's definitely not on the path of hell.

reply from: ChristianLott

You can't repent on a false premise.

You can't say "I'm sorry for condoning the murder of unborn babies, Jesus" then turn around and tell us "I was never a murderer"

So which is it Tam - you murdered babies or not?

It's like:

"I was in the crowd, chanting for Christ's crucifiction, but I never 'murdered' anyone."

Lame.

reply from: Hereforareason

I just want to add to this, that it is not by works alone but by repenting and Accepting Jesus Christ into your life that you can enter into Heaven. I also was reading this morning that Faith without works, is nothing. Very simply, if you say: I believe everything Jesus said! But you don't do it, you are not saved.

Okay, so Tam was pro-choice and drove a friend to the clinic even though she advised her not to have the abortion correct? And CL, your girl friend refused your pleadings and went ahead with an abortion right? Were you pro life before then or Pro-choice?
Do you see yourself as a murderer? If not, what difference (Yes, speak very plainly) is there between you and Tam?

Amber

reply from: Tam

Ok, whoa, whoa. Can we just CAN the discussion of my eternal soul? I hardly think it's appropriate. I think I've been pretty clear about my past and present positions on the issue of abortion, and other issues relevant to that topic, but really--this is too much. This forum exists for a purpose, and that purpose is not a religious analysis of the possible afterlife fates of its members. CL is welcome to his opinion (that I am headed for hell), and I am welcome to my opinion (that he's headed for a padded cell somewhere), but I'd really like to just leave it at that. I can't control what the rest of you post, but I'd just like to request that we DROP IT. I appreciate everyone who is sticking up for me, but really, let's just drop it. Suffice it to say that I am not worried about Hell. I am, however, concerned about thousands of babies being killed in the womb every day. So let's get back to what's really important--and it's NOT me, it's those babies. Thank you.

reply from: yoda

You took the words right out of my mouth, Tam. This is supposed to be a Prolife forum, not a discussion of anyone's religious purity.

And I for one would like to see a halt to such diversions. They play directly into the purposes of the proaborts, can't you people see that?

reply from: ChristianLott

You took the words right out of my mouth, Tam. This is supposed to be a Prolife forum, not a discussion of anyone's religious purity.

And I for one would like to see a halt to such diversions. They play directly into the purposes of the proaborts, can't you people see that?

Actually, this has to do with someone who's aided and abetted murderers confessing their wrong doing.

From what it looks like, Tam doesn't believe she's responsible for even one dead baby.

What use is 'trying to save lives' when you can't even admit that what you've said before has murdered them?

Your words are impotent or they are not - so which is it?

reply from: Tam

You took the words right out of my mouth, Tam. This is supposed to be a Prolife forum, not a discussion of anyone's religious purity.

And I for one would like to see a halt to such diversions. They play directly into the purposes of the proaborts, can't you people see that?

Actually, this has to do with someone who's aided and abetted murderers confessing their wrong doing.

From what it looks like, Tam doesn't believe she's responsible for even one dead baby.

What use is 'trying to save lives' when you can't even admit that what you've said before has murdered them?

Your words are impotent or they are not - so which is it?

I am actually feeling pretty proud of myself for the considerable restraint I'm exercising in my responses to your posts.

I am not personally responsible for a single dead baby. Not one. I know for what I AM responsible, and I am sure that supporting abortion "choice" contributes IN GENERAL to the abortion movement, but never ONCE did I encourage anyone to abort, let alone participate in an abortion, let alone have one myself.

Here's a little quote you may remember from grade school: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Remember that one? Well, you can't have it both ways. Either those guys posting the names of abortionists on their web sites are murderers, because they've possibly (not provably) contributed somehow indirectly to the idea that someone ELSE had to kill an abortionist, or they're NOT murderers, because (newsflash) they didn't murder anyone. Maybe you can't see the parallel, but I am sure anyone with half a head can. Words are not impotent--but they are not lethal weapons, either. So are those Nuremberg files web site guys murderers? If not, than neither am I.

And to put it bluntly: I know I didn't kill anyone or encourage anyone else to kill. I know what I DID do, and it's not something I'm proud of, but I also know what I have NEVER done or felt, and I have never murdered or felt a thirst for blood. Aided and abetted? Sure, I admit that. Guess what, have you ever even seen a trial on TV? Aiding and abetting is a separate charge. You don't get charged with murder unless you (I hope you're sitting down for this shocking revelation) KILL SOMEONE. And guess what else? I have never killed anyone. Therefore, again, loud and clear, for the record:

I AM NOT A MURDERER.

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but your believing it, your repeating it endlessly, and your stubborn refusal to see the truth about it, are all pretty much completely irrelevant to me. At this point, the only thing I still like about you is that you stand up for the lives of unborn children. If that's all we have in common, FINE, who gives a hoot anyway? If you're so hooked on the idea that even the most peripheral support of abortion "choice" is identical to committing homicide oneself--you're speaking for yourself, not for me. If you want to call YOURSELF a bloodthirsty, lunatic murderer--FINE, be my guest, I couldn't possibly care LESS at this point. Stop wasting my time!

reply from: Amy

You know, I've been thinking about this since last evening, and I just cannot see myself as a murderer. So even though it's possible to twist logic enough to make the label stick indirectly--sure, I condoned abortion, I contributed to the pro-choice movement, so I participated in murder, ok--but it just doesn't seem rational to attribute to me the label of murderer. You may wear it with pride or shame or whatever you feel about it, CL, but I have changed my mind, back to what I knew was true yesterday morning--I am NOT a murderer--never have been, and never intend to be. Yes, I supported abortion "choice" and even accompanied a friend to the clinic for her abortion (although it was one I tried to talk her out of, it was really a shame), and I am not proud of those activities. But I don't think they make me a murderer. And frankly, CL, I don't think you're a murderer, either.

Now you're going to Hell, whether you believe it or not.

And with your condemnation you've just send yourself exactly where you, taking the place of the Lord, would direct others. YOU KNOW this is wrong behavior CL and you should be ashamed. It is not your place. You laud yourself as a man of God yet you do much other than His work.

Look inside yourself and call upon Him for His guidance. You need to stop this. You are letting your hate and self-righteousness make you an agent of evil.

reply from: Amy

You're right Tam...this is between you and God...as it will be for all of us steeped in mistakes/sin as normal human beings are. No one else has a right in the discussion. Sorry, but it just really grips my fanny to see someone call themselves Christian and insist they have more right then even God Himself to make decisions of this sort. Ummm...ok, could be just me, but that's not any kind of Christianity I've ever known.

reply from: ChristianLott

Freedom of speech.

You talk and say it doesn't mean anything. I agree. None of what you say means anything.

'I am not an animal' - Merrick

Did you take birth control ever?

What about those who force women to murder their children? They didn't DO the abortion, they just hustled them in for it.

Not only do you say your words not matter, you want to claim YOUR VOTE doesn't matter either?

I know a little guy with a pointy tail waiting to take it all away - your vote, your free speech - and most importantly - your babies.

Your time? To do what? Spout off endlessly with words you've verified to be worthless?

reply from: ChristianLott

Not that I should respond here to this adolescent diatribe Amy, but I'm actually coming to believe you truly don't understand:

" to see someone call themselves Christian and insist they have more right then even God Himself to make decisions of this sort."

And what makes you the expert? Specifically.

" Ummm...ok, could be just me, but that's not any kind of Christianity I've ever known."

Well, that's why there's 3,500 babies slaughtered a day in the US - the majority are a bunch of ^_T)(*&^(*)(*)(*

reply from: bobinsky

CL, why the sudden change?

reply from: ChristianLott

The blood of the innocent we are soaked in does not come off until Jesus and God judge us. That's at the end of the world.

Oh, I'm sorry - Tam and Yoda don't believe in God.

Well take it as sentiment. Heart felt and honest sentiment. Call God whatever you want - this is the truth.

reply from: Amy

Not that I should respond here to this adolescent diatribe Amy, but I'm actually coming to believe you truly don't understand:

" to see someone call themselves Christian and insist they have more right then even God Himself to make decisions of this sort."

And what makes you the expert? Specifically.

" Ummm...ok, could be just me, but that's not any kind of Christianity I've ever known."

Well, that's why there's 3,500 babies slaughtered a day in the US - the majority are a bunch of ^_T)(*&^(*)(*)(*

Specifically, I am NOT the expert on whether someone goes to hell or not, and neither are you...that's the point CL. There are consequences for your trying to supercede His rule.

Yes, sadly there are thousands of innocent babies murdered everyday by abortionists but your self-righteous blathering doesn't help it one bit. Don't you consider that you turn people from His Word and His Justice when you go all fringy on the world, for whatever reason? That was not His way when He walked amongst us, so you do not do His work CL. You need to carefully consider this fact.

The reason for those deaths is because while many Christian's were trying to find their way in a new world of ideas, after suffering the guilt of slavery and oppresssion, many were guilted in to looking at the tops of their shoes while the evil-minded slithered in and twisted our direction. Why don't you try working towards helping people to lift their minds out from under that guilt and in to strength of conviction instead of throwing fire-and-brimstone condemnation at others?

And don't call me childish CL because I recognize that you do not do His work in your way, rather the opposite.

reply from: bobinsky

But I thought you'd repented and are saved? Or am I missing something?

In your eyes, then, what does this make them? Where will people who do not believe in God end up after death?

Well, it's your truth and I guess the truth of other fundamentalist Christians. But as a Christian, are you called to judge other Christians?

CL, most of the time your posts are full of sh*t. JMHO. However, and the same with Shagmar, you both are on THEIR side, yet you condemn them. Why? They espouse their anti-choice beliefs. Do you not believe them? Or are you pulling somebody's leg?

reply from: Skippy

I would have bet money that the first Hatfield the others turned on would be one who's "not pro-life enough". It's sort of entertaining that I had it completely wrong: The ones they chose to cudgel were the two hellfire-brimstone-damnation religious extremists.

You're going to hate me for saying this, Bob, but I kind of like christianlott and shamgar. You've got to admire a man (or woman) with enough guts to speak his mind in a place where his opinion is wildly unpopular.

reply from: bobinsky

Nope, don't hate you. Kind of agree with you. CL is a whack-job, but we already knew this. But he is "pro-life", as well as shagmar. Now all of a sudden the pack turns on these two "pro-life" Christians because they don't want to be reminded of what the Bible says? I think perhaps shagmar's and CL's words hit a wee bit close to home for comfort.

reply from: Tam

Ok, first of all, I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't believe in God--and I don't even care where you got the idea, nor do I care to correct your wrong thinking--why should I bother? It's none of your business, and nothing I say means anything to you, right? Well then, let's just try to ignore each other from now on.

reply from: ChristianLott

This isn't (*^& calculus. Two rules:

The measure you give will be the measure you get.

Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

God didn't give us the ten commandments to break them or not call others on it, he wanted us to OBEY them.

You SHALL NOT MURDER.

What Don';t you((*^^(understand???

reply from: yoda

I believe that you are out to sabatoge the efforts of the Prolifers on this forum to fight abortion, in order to pursue your own agenda.

So as far as I'm concerned, you have joined the other side.

reply from: ChristianLott

But I thought you'd repented and are saved? Or am I missing something?

You will find out on Judgment Day - at the end of the world - whether you're saved or not. Jesus has promised us that if we TRULY repent we will be saved. Not in this life time - the NEXT.

In your eyes, then, what does this make them? Where will people who do not believe in God end up after death?

Hell

Well, it's your truth and I guess the truth of other fundamentalist Christians. But as a Christian, are you called to judge other Christians?

That's THE POINT. They are not Christian if they claim to be saved already. You can hope and pray you're saved, but only on judgment day WILL YOU BE JUDGED.

CL, most of the time your posts are full of sh*t. JMHO. However, and the same with Shagmar, you both are on THEIR side, yet you condemn them. Why? They espouse their anti-choice beliefs. Do you not believe them? Or are you pulling somebody's leg?

They think they have nothing to worry about. God is watching all the time. You better act responsible for the 50 million babies you've slaughtered and Christ's crucification if you want to be saved. THIS ISN'T a debate.

reply from: yoda

As well you ought to.

reply from: ChristianLott

Rhetoric does not save lives. Ask Tam.

reply from: ChristianLott

It's obvious.

Watch out Bobo, on doubletake - we're still out to GET YOU!

reply from: ChristianLott

I believe that you are out to sabatoge the efforts of the Prolifers on this forum to fight abortion, in order to pursue your own agenda.

So as far as I'm concerned, you have joined the other side.

Yeah. When we contradict your anti-religious rhetoric, we're suddenly murderers?

Yoda's new commandment:

Thou shall not use the Lord's name - PERIOD.

reply from: sarah

CL, the fact that a pro-abort the likes of bobinskippy likes you should speak volumes.
She sees the descension you and your alter ego Shagmar brought into the ranks of pro-life advocates. Though your heart is in the right place your tactics will only continually backfire.

Your rhetoric hasn't save a single life, NOT one. But, what's worse your rhetoric has caused division.

reply from: ChristianLott

"Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14 : 25-26)

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."(Luke 18:9-14)

He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness." (Mat 10,1)

" The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest." (Matt 13, 28-30)

Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

"Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14 : 25-26)

That is why the prophet Jeremiah said, "'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace." and why Jesus said, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NIV)

reply from: ChristianLott

King James Version of the Bible

Book of Matthew

Chapter 10

10:1

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

10:2

Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

10:3

Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

10:4

Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

10:5

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

10:6

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

10:7

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

10:8

Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

10:9

Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,

10:10

Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

10:11

And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

10:12

And when ye come into an house, salute it.

10:13

And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

10:14

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

10:15

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

10:16

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

10:17

But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

10:18

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

10:19

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

10:21

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

10:22

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

10:23

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

10:24

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

10:25

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

10:26

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

10:27

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

10:29

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

10:30

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

10:31

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

10:32

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36

And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

10:38

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

10:39

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

10:40

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

10:41

He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

10:42

And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

reply from: sarah

Well, CL....since the pro-aborts don't "hate" you, it should seem obvious you've missed your goal.

Romans 16:17 - Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The division you've caused is costing the lives of the developing child in the womb. I hope you'll come to realize that one day soon.

reply from: Skippy

Only twenty-one states have parental consent laws that are enforced. The rest of them are notification only, they have no consent or notification laws, or their laws are under injunction.

reply from: ChristianLott

This is about murder. If you participate in murder, you are just as culpable as the one who did the actual murdering.

All I ask is that any pro life person assume accountability for the 50 million slaughtered and confess their role in it.

I would be a hypocrite if I called such vicious and false hearted pro aborts like Skippy and Bobinsky cold hearted ruthless bloodthirsty murderers if I did not also apply the same standard for myself when I was thinking like them.

reply from: Skippy

It shocks me that your fellow Hatfields are having so much difficulty grasping what you are saying, christianlott. Aiding and abetting a murder is a crime equivalent to the murder itself. And if you are sorry you committed a murder, and you ask your god for forgiveness, you're still a murderer. You're just a murderer who has repented.

It's not rocket science, people.

(I don't believe in the christian god, mind you, but at least I get what poor christianlott is trying to say while you all pee in his kool-aid.)

reply from: Tam

This is hilarious. You think nobody UNDERSTANDS the lunatic fringe? You're both drinking the kool-aid, all right. There's a difference between rejecting someone's stupid ideas and misunderstanding them.

For example, I don't misunderstand YOUR stupid ideas, but I DO reject them.

Get the difference?

reply from: yoda

Now Tam, don't throw water on bobinskippy's efforts to stir up trouble among us........ she's having so much fun stirring the pot.......

reply from: Tam

I think she's doing something else with her pot than stirring it. She must be smoking SOMETHING if she thinks she's making any sense.

reply from: bobinsky

Have you ever heard of "personal responsibility" yoda? No, I didn't think so. You people, as evidenced in other threads, cause your own trouble among yourselves. Nobody has to do anything. But this is a great example of how you people evade personal responsibility for what you say on this forum: blame the pro-choicers for the disagreements among the anti-choicers. The fact that you have to blame other people for disagreements amongst you people is pathetic, but not surprising.

reply from: yoda

YO bobo... now that I've got your attention, what do you say about this:

Author Icon
poppa
Member

Posts: 149
Joined: 04/05/2005

hey guys what thread was that statement in , the statement who someone thought they could read my mind and decided the only reason i have changed my views on abortion is that i was treated badly here?

i cannot seem to find it
thanks in advance

for those who dont care to follow this

the reason i changed my views is you can not dispute facts if you dispute facts the only person you are fooling is yourself.. no one can deny the fact of those photos of abortion to be fake along with the numbers that they actualy occur in especialy partial birth ab. that is the sickest and creulest thing imagineable and to people who think those children cant feel that while they are being slaughtered need to get you heads examined and open your eyes to the hell on earth that you are supporting

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=601&highlight_key=y&keyword1=%20treated

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poppa
Member

Posts: 149
Joined: 04/05/2005

how could anyone have treated be badly?
that is a stupid notion all this board is, is opinions and not everyone is going to agree or disagree with what you say
to say i changed my mind is because people treated me badly is ludicrous..
you know its not like i see people on this board every day and in my personal life . now if that was the case that argument may have some validity

Edited: 07/08/2005 at 07:38 PM by poppa

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=595&highlight_key=y&keyword1=%20treated

reply from: bobinsky

Okay, Skippy, let's use a true anti-choicer as an example, cause I ain't got no idea what you're talking about. If a person is anti-choice consistently, then how can this person have aided and abetted in "murder" (which abortion isn't)?

reply from: yoda

MISSED IT AGAIN??

Wow, guess I'll have to start a new thread..........

reply from: sarah

Have you ever heard of "personal responsibility" yoda? No, I didn't think so. You people, as evidenced in other threads, cause your own trouble among yourselves. Nobody has to do anything. But this is a great example of how you people evade personal responsibility for what you say on this forum: blame the pro-choicers for the disagreements among the anti-choicers. The fact that you have to blame other people for disagreements amongst you people is pathetic, but not surprising.

You and your ilk wouldn't know "personal responsibility" if it grew arms and slapped you upside the head as an introduction.

Funny how "personal responsibility" applies to everything BUT taking responsibility for the life growing inside a woman. Then it's just "off with its head"....who ever heard of applying that little life lesson so it extends to something that important.

You stop supporting abortion on demand and then you come back and teach us lessons on "personal responsibility".

reply from: Skippy

Okay, Skippy, let's use a true anti-choicer as an example, cause I ain't got no idea what you're talking about. If a person is anti-choice consistently, then how can this person have aided and abetted in "murder" (which abortion isn't)?

When you are talking to christianlott or shamgar, you can check the laws of man at the door, because those laws do not mean squat to either of them. They only respond to conversation about the laws of god; laws they believe take precedence over the laws of man.

According to their understanding of their god's laws, abortion is murder. And enabling abortion in any way is also murder. (I called it aiding and abetting, which is a term from man's laws, obviously. All those gods should think about adopting it for the sake of clarity.)

Anyway, for at one time not having been of the "no abortion, no exceptions" mind-set, christianlott brands himself a murderer. He is a murderer who has repented, but still a murderer in his own eyes, even if not in yours and mine.

In other words, there's no such thing as a "former murderer".

reply from: bobinsky

Well, the laws of man say that abortion is a legal right for women, so I think that there are many others who fall under this same description as CL or shagmar. In other words, the laws of man don't mean squat to any anti-choicers.

There are atheists and agnostics who believe abortion is murder, so I guess these people make their own laws and forget about man's and/or god's laws.

Well, CL is branding everyone else on the board as murderers. As I said, if they've been consistently anti-choice, how can they be branded as murderers?

reply from: Tam

I find it highly offensive that Bobinskippy, who supposedly cares so much about women, consistently uses exclusive, sexist language such as "the laws of man."

Just thought I'd mention.

reply from: Skippy

Have they been consistently anti-choice without exceptions? Anyone who hasn't been is a murderer according to christianlott.

reply from: ForLife

Have they been consistently anti-choice without exceptions? Anyone who hasn't been is a murderer according to christianlott.

Anyone who has been angry with his brother without a cause, or lusted for someone in their mind, is already a murderer or adulterer. Murder and adultery starts in the mind. Whether someone has actually carried out the act yet is irrelevant. Given enough time, someone who does not clean up their mind is a strong candidate to actually carry out an act of murder or adultery. I believe we are all guilty. We are so defective that death, destruction and misery are sure events in our future. One ancient Israelite prayed that God would keep him from causing pain. We ask God to create in us a clean mind. It is the only way to happiness and peace; an abundant and joyful life.

I did find fault with Tam saying, "I am not a murderer." I could not say such a thing about myself. I sure want that to change. That's why we should seize unto the creator's instruction. The Master Potter does want us vessels to come out useful for good works.

reply from: Skippy

Wow. Very honest. I applaud you, and admire your faith, even though I don't share it.

reply from: ChristianLott

Not as far reaching as the last post, but the blood of the innocent are all over your money too. By association.

If there really is only six degrees of separation it would seem to take little effort for some God blessed individual to cease their relationships with all murder lines, connect only with the good lines and propagate through that better computer.

I'm talking about genetic lines but also behavior and idea prorogation and specifically economy.

reply from: bobinsky

Your sorry self wouldn't know true Christianity if Christ himself tutored you in the subject.

I have no obligation, no right, moral or otherwise, to take personal responsibility for any life growing inside any woman, just as you have no obligation to adopt the babies of the woman who choose to not abort but to give the child up for adoption. So enough of your personal responsibility for the lives of other people.
I tend to what I am personally responsible for in this life. I'm not responsible for other people's behavior, either in real life or the behavior of the AC's on this forum. Yet you want to point fingers at everybody instead of taking a real good look at yourself. I can understand why you're scared to take a good look. You're a lying nag who makes baseless accusations against other posters, then refuses to back up those accusations because you're afraid of finding out you're wrong. This is the kind of stuff your type is made of. I'm still waiting for proof of your claim that I am "multiple posters". Easy enough to do from how it's been explained to me. So instead of casting stones at others, you pharisee, tend to your own business of proving what you claim.

I will support whatever cause I wish that is legal in this country. The fact that you believe abortion is immoral is your opinion and nothing more, and it means zilch in the context of the huge majority of citizens of this country who disagree with you and your cronies.
You start taking responsibility for the vitriol and hatred you spew at others on this forum instead of blaming it on others and then you talk to me about personal responsibility.

reply from: bobinsky

But if you have not murdered anyone, why would you call yourself a murderer?

Well, okay. Do you find fault with CL condemning and branding all others as murderers? Or do you believe he is on the right track?

reply from: ChristianLott

But if you have not murdered anyone, why would you call yourself a murderer?

Well, okay. Do you find fault with CL condemning and branding all others as murderers? Or do you believe he is on the right track?

Bobinsky - you murder a baby, you go to Hell.

God would never place an honestly good person in Hell.

So you have a choice. Condemn the murderers or take responsibility for the murder on yourself.

I can't speak for you but I know that taking blame for murders I'm not actually physically committing would be foolish.

I wouldn't even ask you to get involved in the pro life movement, but at least take a little of your own advice and tend to your own body and stop worrying about another woman's 'right' to murder her baby. Just let it go.

You and Skippy have already claimed that man's laws are what you deem important. Keep your word. Allow our elected men and women to make the decisions and laws and stop trying to force your beliefs into the court.

I would think it takes a lot of faith to put your trust in elected officials, but that's what you claim to do. I just hope for your sake you're just as satisfied with their laws once they revoke this supposed 'right' to murder.

And if not, before this happens - I'd like to know just which god you've placed your trust in.

reply from: ForLife

But if you have not murdered anyone, why would you call yourself a murderer?

Well, okay. Do you find fault with CL condemning and branding all others as murderers? Or do you believe he is on the right track?

Jesus told some Pharisees and other Jewish people (who thought they were Godly) that they were murderers and children of Satan. "Not true", they said, "we are Abraham's children and God's offspring." Jesus said, "You are looking to kill me." The Pharisees and Jews said, "You are mad and have a demon, who is looking to kill you?" Jesus said all authority was placed in His hands and that he was the same as the Father. And sure enough, those surrounding Jesus picked up stones to kill him. Jesus was correct, there was murder in the hearts of those Pharisees and Jewish people that he spoke to. They were defective and needed to change. It's just that the right circumstances had not come up yet for them to carry out an act of murder; but murderers they were.

Jesus said you are a murderer if you are angry with your bother without a cause. Jesus said you are an adulterer if you look at a woman for the purpose of lusting at her. I believe it is possible not to do either. I believe it is possible to become like Jesus, through His Word and the gift of the Holy Spirit. By studying and following His instruction it is possible to become one who is not a murderer or adulterer. Before our maturity to Christ's standard, it is natural to let the passions of the natural man rule. Without instruction, we would let our anger go off inappropriately and enjoy the sensation of lust. The Bible says we should be "angry and sin not". There are issues to be angry about, but our response to our anger needs to be lawful. Also, the Bible says the marriage bed is undefiled. Drinking from your own cistern is fine, but being in the arms of a strange woman is not.

I don't want to be hard on the Pharisess and Jews, all of us have been like them, and most still are; despite their belief that they have been saved by an altar call. Evangelicals behavior is statistically just about the same as the secular society in whole. Based on their behavior most Evangelical Christians are the same as agnostics and athiests; they are still murderers and adulterers; in works they deny God.

reply from: theflyingpen

Now I *am* confused...I was starting to see the point you were making in calling pro-choicers murderers, even if I did not agree with it, but now...

Anyway, my question: you say it's foolish to blame yourself for murders you did not physically commit

BUT you obviously don't have a problem blaming other people for murders they did not physically commit...

Is this not paradoxical? Or contrastive thinking?

Am I misunderstanding your post again?

reply from: ChristianLott

Now I *am* confused...I was starting to see the point you were making in calling pro-choicers murderers, even if I did not agree with it, but now...

Anyway, my question: you say it's foolish to blame yourself for murders you did not physically commit

BUT you obviously don't have a problem blaming other people for murders they did not physically commit...

Is this not paradoxical? Or contrastive thinking?

Am I misunderstanding your post again?

Yes, you are misunderstanding and I knew this would be a difficult point to make..

I understand why this is difficult to make but I think it's a perfectly understandable system - so those who claim to be agnostic or atheists shouldn't have trouble.

"I can't speak for you but I know that taking blame for murders I'm not actually physically committing would be foolish."

It is foolish and I understand why Tam and others are having difficulty. The point is, after you repent - after you say 'murdering babies is not the way to go' - you take yourself out of the mix.

That is not to say you've never been in the mix.

I vouched for one of my first girlfriends to get an abortion when she asked me. I said I'd give her the money. When she took the pregnancy test and found she wasn't pregnant - we were still guilty of conspiring to commit murder.

Now when you finally say 'murdering babies is wrong and I won't support such activities' you remove yourself from the filth by your own actions.

The truth be told though, you are a murderer and you do have the blood of the innocent on you - whether one or 50 million, that stays with you until on judgment day you are called before God and He judges you.

So would you rather go before God straight from the filth or stand before him having attempted to remove that filth from yourself and others no matter how impossible that would be?

More specifically, it is foolish to WANT the blame. Most will justly receive the blame anyway (like me). All reasonable people will see their mistake and renounce Satan.

Maybe I can say it better as:

"WANTING to take blame for murder would be foolish."

Yet this is precisely what those who are pro choice do. Even those who are 'only' pro choice when it comes to other people's babies by upholding their 'right' to murder.

reply from: theflyingpen

Ah. I see.

So my boyfriend doesn't condone murder or the intentional loss of life, but he allows and "can't see taking away" a woman's right to murder her unborn child, hence, he in fact does condone murder in this sense.

He has never murdered anyone, or even conspired to, but because murder (even in only one form) is acceptable to him, he is, say, more of a murderer than someone who has been consistently pro-life their whole lifetime.

Is this more along the lines of what you're trying to get us to perceive?

Or am I *still* banging my head against the wall?

reply from: ChristianLott

Ah. I see.

So my boyfriend doesn't condone murder or the intentional loss of life, but he allows and "can't see taking away" a woman's right to murder her unborn child, hence, he in fact does condone murder in this sense.

He has never murdered anyone, or even conspired to, but because murder (even in only one form) is acceptable to him, he is, say, more of a murderer than someone who has been consistently pro-life their whole lifetime.

Is this more along the lines of what you're trying to get us to perceive?

Or am I *still* banging my head against the wall?

Well, you can't be more a murderer or less a murderer, despite what our laws say. When you condone murder and/or help others murder (which includes turning a blind eye) that is in fact actual murder. The only way to absolve yourself of that situation is to extricate yourself from that context AND the only way to extricate yourself is by fighting against it.

So you don't have to physically murder someone to catch the blame for the murder.

It's a 'for me or against me' type of thing. There IS NO middle ground.

Once you've extricated yourself from the murdering mentality - which means fighting for LIFE - you may feel safe in the knowledge you will be saved from eternal damnation, though you will only know on judgment day whether you've done enough in this life to cover for your previous mistakes.

After judgment day if you are found good, Christ will wash away those sins and you will cleansed. If not, you may find yourself being washed away ALONG WITH the other sins (and sinners)!

Agnosticly speaking, heaven can be viewed as some indeterminate time in the far future where we finally get everything right. Also, the word sin means 'mistake'.

reply from: theflyingpen

See? I think that explanation was a lot clearer than accusing everyone here of being murderers right off the bat--though you do get attention that way. (This is compared to your, well, let's call them loud posts from before.)

It is a matter I'll still have to mull over though. I won't disagree with you, but I can't agree as of yet.

If I support, or even more obscure, simply turn a blind eye to murder, am I murderer?

reply from: yoda

Testify, sister!

reply from: sarah

Testify, sister!

I'm trying, brother!

reply from: oregone

Thank you, ChristianLott, for this compelling wake-up call to the pro-aborts. I am glad i have a cohort in believing that the anti-lifers that rejoice in the streets every time an innocent baby dies are no better than the dirty arabs that reveled in Bagdad when the twin towers fell. If only the pro-aborts would respectfully admit that they are morally reprehensible in believing that ripping a fetus from a womb and eating it on the altar of satan in the name of all that is unholy. If only the pro-aborts would respectfully admit that abortion is equal to everything from infanticide and child abuse to welfare reform and parking in a handicapped zone. They just need to give a little. One tiny baby.

reply from: Amy

Exactly where did you ever read that? Legally speaking.

reply from: ChristianLott

Exactly oregone.

Abortion IS infanticide.


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