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aborting rape victims

shows our compassion

by: ChristianLott2

for innocent babies and their innocent mothers.

reply from: CharlesD

He probably meant to indicate sarcasm.

reply from: ChristianLott2

because abortion is easier than pregnancy.

reply from: ChristianLott2

and minors are incapable of love or responsibility.

reply from: micah

I disagree with Augustine on abortion, but at least he can form complete sentences and ideas.

reply from: ChristianLott2

huh? this is real faux life. these are the ones who really need abortions. abortion is a wonderful thing.

reply from: ChristianLott2

abortion is easier than rape. it's actually pretty cool once you get the hang of it.

reply from: KaylieBee

Zyrate comes in a little glass vial

reply from: yoda

Oh yeah. Electively killing some innocent person is always the most compassionate, the kindest thing you can do for them. Why, it's like the ultimate act of love. </sarcasm>

reply from: ChristianLott2

Oh yeah. Electively killing some innocent person is always the most compassionate, the kindest thing you can do for them. Why, it's like the ultimate act of love. </sarcasm>
oh yeah. it's totally awesome and cool. it's the only way to go if you've been raped, carole said. The rest of the faux lifers didn't want to come right out and say it, but they agreed with the ahhh.. verdict however demurely.
I tell ya, better the mangled corpse of your child in a bag than a new baby.
Saves her self importance-... ahhh.. esteem. Gives them a feeling of accomplishment.

reply from: yoda

And gets them some tea and chocolates...... which they might miss if they change their minds.

reply from: ChristianLott2

oh man! that REALLY makes up for my slaughtered child. That REALLY makes it ALL better.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Just like seeing the dentist and getting a lollipop when I was five.

reply from: yoda

Yep. You know you're going to get that lollipop, so you put up with the rest of it.

reply from: micah

Like when Yahweh did it to Jesus?

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yeah murder is awesome! praise god!

reply from: yoda

There you go again, comparing us mere mortals to God. Shame on you!!

reply from: micah

If god does exist, he's presided over far more abortions than Planned Parenthood will ever dream.

reply from: ChristianLott2

because god controls us and would never allow us to act of our own fee will...

reply from: micah

Then am I wrong for being pro-choice and allowing women to act of their own free will and get abortions?
because god controls us and would never allow us to act of our own fee will...

reply from: carolemarie

I never said that I believed a rape victim should get an abortion. I said that they should get counseling before any decision is made and that it should be the decision of that person, not a fiat imposed upon them.
I believe that more women would choose to carry to term if they and their familes received counseling.

reply from: yoda

I always thought of that as giving folks enough rope to hang themselves.....

reply from: micah

Generally they are given the morning after pill.

reply from: ChristianLott2

You are a pro abort. Admit it and stop trying to sell yourself as something else. You don't even know what pro life is.

reply from: carolemarie

If you report it and recieve the map within 72 hours.
Lots of women don't report rape at first.
We are talking about a rare occurance, pregnancy resulting from rape.

reply from: Teresa18

God is the creator. Our lives belong to him, and our time is merely on loan. He has the right to give life and take life away.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Of course you are wrong. Laws are made so people will act according to them, not against them. You will always have your free will regardless - to either obey or disobey.
Now if you truly believe abortion is a bad thing, you want the laws to be against it.
If you think it's a bad thing but still want it legal, you should make all the other laws against bad things and make that stuff legal too.
Or just forget the law and have anarchy. At least you'd be making sense instead of being a hypocrite.

reply from: Teresa18

It's not as rare as you think, though. Using the number of 1.3 million abortions per year with 1% due to rape, that would be 13,000 abortions. That's a lot of innocent children killed for a crime they never committed.

reply from: ChristianLott2

13,000? But that's not all! There's more!
Carole and the other faux lifers want to abort all the young girls too! They're just too young to have babies (even though their bodies tell them they can)!

reply from: carolemarie

You are a pro abort. Admit it and stop trying to sell yourself as something else. You don't even know what pro life is.
You do absolutely nothing at all for the prolife cause except whine and snipe at people.
At least Yoda DOES something, even if I think it is the wrong thing, I will say at least he does something. He goes to the clinic every week and stands there with the sign trying to change a heart....he is prolife in deed as well as word.
But you, you just whine and call names, like a destructive two year old.
You need to do something constructive, why don't you go to the abortion clinic and at least pray or hold a sign? Faithman has these great little I am a person postcards that you can use at the clinic and he will send them to you if you ask. They are very helpful and I use them all the time(and have for several years)
Be prolife and do something.

reply from: Faramir

Wher do you get the figure that 1% of abortions are because of rape?

reply from: ChristianLott2

you do worse than nothing. you come here and whine and snipe the true pro lifers and try to claim glory for yourself and you're not even pro life.
now you say that after you've started multiple yv bashing threads and cried a bloody red river over it.
and all you do is chat with your little girl friends down at the abortion mill and pass out chocolates. then vouch for murdering babies all with the same mouth.
oooohhh. now you're just in love w/ fm and yv! rofl.
I am being pro life by warning others about you and your phony gang.
Why don't you get your mind straight before you go out and ruin others?
At least most pro abort say they are such. Stop lying!
This is a new better movement we're starting here. We're sick of you phony faux lifers. Instead of wasting our time trying to convert pro aborts, we're going to solidify our base of REAL pro lifers. We're sick of the phony rape excuse. We're sick of you bullies trying to guilt us out of love for the pre born!
You need to go look at yourself in the mirror and feel some shame for once. You need to stop this sick phony 'love' you have that somehow makes women MORE IMPORTANT than their babies.
Yeah, you're getting a scolding and you need it. you need to stop vouching for murder and 'choice'.
That is my contribution to pro life and you need to take some time out and respect it.

reply from: Teresa18

I was using the 1987 Guttmacher Study. That study is linked here with this information. The number of abortions due to rape may be lower than I thought. Their 2004 studies says 0.5%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

reply from: ChristianLott2

Forced abortions - America's secret epidemic
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=378732

reply from: carolemarie

you do worse than nothing. you come here and whine and snipe the true pro lifers and try to claim glory for yourself and you're not even pro life.
now you say that after you've started multiple yv bashing threads and cried a bloody red river over it.
and all you do is chat with your little girl friends down at the abortion mill and pass out chocolates. then vouch for murdering babies all with the same mouth.
oooohhh. now you're just in love w/ fm and yv! rofl.
I am being pro life by warning others about you and your phony gang.
Why don't you get your mind straight before you go out and ruin others?
At least most pro abort say they are such. Stop lying!
This is a new better movement we're starting here. We're sick of you phony faux lifers. Instead of wasting our time trying to convert pro aborts, we're going to solidify our base of REAL pro lifers. We're sick of the phony rape excuse. We're sick of you bullies trying to guilt us out of love for the pre born!
You need to go look at yourself in the mirror and feel some shame for once. You need to stop this sick phony 'love' you have that somehow makes women MORE IMPORTANT than their babies.
Yeah, you're getting a scolding and you need it. you need to stop vouching for murder and 'choice'.
That is my contribution to pro life and you need to take some time out and respect it.
1. I may not like the attitude of FM and Yoda, but I don't doubt that they care about the babies. I may not agree with their tatics, and I do think they are pro-fetus to the max, but I respect the fact they do live what they believe.
2. Since your lecture is directed at a mythical carolemarie, I see no point in even reading it. Perhaps you can tell me a better method to do what I do? Do you know a better method to reach womene seeking abortion? Do you know a better method to reach women after the abortion? Oh yeah, you don't actually do anything so you don't know what you are talking about......

reply from: Faramir

Isn't the figure of 5% high as far as rapes resulting in pregnancies? One out of twenty rapes results in a pregancy?? That doesn't ring true to me.
But even if accepted, then the resultant figure of 2,250 rape abortions is under .02% of all abortions, or 1 rape abortion for every 6,000 overall abortions.

reply from: ChristianLott2

who cares?
I just told you what to do but you didn't read it.
STOP BEING A PRO ABORT!

reply from: KaylieBee

And the little glass vial goes into the gun like battery.
And the zydrate gun goes somewhere against your anatomy
And when the gun goes off, it sparks and you're ready for surgery.

reply from: Teresa18

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Cult...Default.aspx?id=378732
Gee, I thought legal abortion was about "choice". Why are these laws necessary? Don't "choicers" working at the abortion clinic make sure this is actually the woman's decision? You don't think it could be that the abortion clinic cares more about *gasp* profits than women and choice, do you?

reply from: ChristianLott2

it is WAY past your bed time.

reply from: ChristianLott2

No, they care about women the same way carole and the other faux lifers care about them. They care about excuses to murder.
Oh, you had a bad day? kill your baby.
Oh, you were raped? kill your baby.
Headache? you know what to do!
Boyfriend forcing you? kill your baby.
Too young to be pregnant? kill your baby.
It all boils down to the same rotten rule - kill your baby.

reply from: ChristianLott2

oh, i've got it!
kill your baby. it's the only solution!

reply from: KaylieBee

it is WAY past your bed time.
The same to you, sweety.

reply from: xLoki

I love how you put rape up there amongst "having a bad day" and headaches. I think I just figured out your problem. Rape (and its psychological toll) is absolutely incomprehensible to you.

reply from: yoda

Who, Farismear? Why, he's your lawyer!

reply from: yoda

I thought you would be upset that he left out incest. The principle is the same, no matter what your problem is, the solution is to kill your baby. You'll agree with that, won't you?

reply from: ChristianLott2

Murdering an innocent baby will put a smile back on your face. Abortion is the cure!
Abortion is the fauxchologist's panacea.

reply from: xLoki

I thought you would be upset that he left out incest. The principle is the same, no matter what your problem is, the solution is to kill your baby. You'll agree with that, won't you?
No, it's not the same. If someone's using the excuse that they had a bad day to abort, then they probably had other reasons as well, or they have mental issues. You, too, seem to be incapable of comprehending the mental anguish of rape victims.

reply from: xLoki

Murdering an innocent baby will put a smile back on your face. Abortion is the cure!
Thank you for belittling rape some more. Be glad you don't have a uterus because you will NEVER have to fear the possibility of conceiving through rape the way that every child-bearing-age woman on the face of the planet does.
Male privilege. You haz it.

reply from: yoda

You left out the word "principle". I said the principle is the same.
Yeah, we all know that abortion is "not exactly the same" as anything else, carole tells us that all the time. But the principle of the elective killing of the innocent is still the same, no matter what technicalities you bring up.
Rape and incest are the only two crimes for which an innocent bystander is sometimes executed.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Thank you for belittling rape some more. Be glad you don't have a uterus because you will NEVER have to fear the possibility of conceiving through rape the way that every child-bearing-age woman on the face of the planet does.
Male privilege. You haz it.
Thank YOU for belittling the very LIFE of an innocent baby.
This isn't about fear or pain, this is about the elective murder of an innocent person.

reply from: Rosalie

Graverobber... Graverobber...
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...
Graverobber... Graverobber...
Sometimes I wonder why I need you at all!
Hello, fellow fan.

reply from: Rosalie

Yeah, let's punish the woman, that's so much better! Her will and body has already been raped by the perpetrator, so what difference does it make to you if you abuse her again, right? After all, who cares about what she has to say, what she believes and what she wants to happen to her body? The perpetrator didn't and you sure as hell don's, either.

reply from: scopia19822

"Yeah, let's punish the woman, that's so much better! Her will and body has already been raped by the perpetrator, so what difference does it make to you if you abuse her again, right? After all, who cares about what she has to say, what she believes and what she wants to happen to her body? The perpetrator didn't and you sure as hell don's, either."
It would seem IMHO that an abortion could be viewed as yet another assault as it invades the most sacred core of a womans body, and that is often a reason many rape victims wont prosecute is because the rape kit is viewed by many to be just as degrading if not more so than the intial assault itself. Hence many women will not seek medical attention, much less prosecute.

reply from: Rosalie

It's exactly the opposite. The woman had no choice when she was raped. She was taken advantage of, she was abused in the most horrible way, all her rights were disregarded. The last thing she deserves is that her rights and her say so about her body that has been violated in the most violent and awful way by the rape be violated yet again by forcing her to EITHER carry an unwanted pregnancy OR have an abortion. That's what it's about.

reply from: Rosalie

Liar. You are nothing but a liar. Not one pro-choice person I know says anything like that. You are nothing but a filthy liar with immense psychological problems.
As someone who has just put rape and a headache into the same category, you should think about getting yourself committed. Before those around you who care about you do it. If there are such people.

reply from: scopia19822

"it's exactly the opposite. The woman had no choice when she was raped. She was taken advantage of, she was abused in the most horrible way, all her rights were disregarded. The last thing she deserves is that her rights and her say so about her body that has been violated in the most violent and awful way by the rape be violated yet again by forcing her to EITHER carry an unwanted pregnancy OR have an abortion. That's what it's about."
I guess it is all about prespective. I personall would view an abortion as another assault. Maybe my conscience is too strong, but I could not look at myself in the mirror knowing that I had an elective abortion, no matter the circumstances of the child conception.

reply from: BossMomma

Is it just me or is this starting to sound like a really crappy haiku?

reply from: faithman

Yeah, let's punish the woman, that's so much better! Her will and body has already been raped by the perpetrator, so what difference does it make to you if you abuse her again, right? After all, who cares about what she has to say, what she believes and what she wants to happen to her body? The perpetrator didn't and you sure as hell don's, either.
What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: ChristianLott2

No, the one's who are getting abortions have put rape and headache's in the same category - abortion worthy excuses.
Simply listing their own excuses to murder their babies. It's fact.

reply from: churchmouse

You know what I don't get? I do not get the hatred here on this board that Christian show one another.
This is sad.
You know as we grow and experience the love of Christ one of the results is love for other people. An irrational desire to love and forgive them replaces bitterness. The Bible says when we experience great forgiveness ourselves we are able to love others all the more.
Read Luke 7:47. "Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven - for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
However if we have yet to realize the weight of our own indebtedness to God we just dont love.
It certainly shows here with a few people.
Hatred is completely out of place in the Christian life. After we have been forgiven so much, how could we not forgive others? Hatred makes no sense.
There is a cure for hatred. CHRIST. Gods grace towards us requires and actually enables us to be gracious toward others. And yet that is the furthest from what goes on here.
How many God filled hearts are really on this forum?
I want to share this story I read in a book by Max Lucado.
"Each week Kevin Tunell was required to mail a dollar to a family he'd rather forget. They sued him for $1.5 million but settled for $936, to be paid a dollar at a time. The family expected the payment each Friday so Tunell would not forget what happened on the first Friday of 1982.
That's the day their daughter was killed. Tunell was convicted of manslaughter and druken driving. He was seventeen and she was eighteen. Tunell finished a court sentence. He also spent seven years campaigning against drunk driving, six years more than his sentence required. But he kept forgetting to send the dollar.
The weekly restitution was to last until the year 2000. Eighteen years. Tunell made out the check out to the victim, mailed it to her family and the money was deposited in a scholarship fund.
The family took him to court four times for failure to comply. After one appearance, Tunell spent thirty days in jail. He insisted that he was not defying the order but rather was haunted by the girl's death and tormented by the reminders. He offered the family two boxes of checks covering the payments until the year 2001, one year more than required. They refused. It was not the money they sought, but penance. Quoting the mother, "We wanted to receive the check every week on time. He needed to remember what he did to our daughter every week for the 18 short years she lived."
Wow. Is this an example of god-filled hearts? This reminds me of some people on here.
Should women who have repented who want to go on with their lives be reminded of their sin over and over and over?
I got news for ya all........I am forgiven. God forgave me and washed me clean. If you cant forgive, then its you with the proble. Unforgiveness separate you from God, remember that. Carole has done the same. Yet she is bashed with ungodly words over and over. Would Christ think this was right? Even if her views are different and wrong......it does NOT IN ANY WAY EXCUSE THE ACTS OF OTHERS. Especially those who CLAIM they love Christ.
"And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."
hebrews 10:18
"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:32
Holiness demands that sin be punished. Mercy compels that the sinner be loved.
We are to be imitators of Christ..........we should keep that in mind.
The hatred here from some is unreal. I question their faith by the actions they show. They need to know and experience the Love of Jesus Christ thats for sure.

reply from: micah

I agree with you. I'm pro-choice and not a Christian, so I suppose you will all hate my guts. I would think that the pro-life Christians on here would get along pretty well. Us pro-choicers get along fairly well (Rosalie, Spinwiddy, etc). But the pro-life Christians seem to despise even each other!

reply from: Faramir

There are always ways around that. There are loopholes for the haters to justify themselves.
The best one is that the person obviously is not really sorry, so we get to smack her around until she REALLY sees the light.
And the other excuse is a lot more flimsy, but it's used shamelessly over and over--that we don't like her views, or we don't like that she criticized us, so we may be as cruel as we like and keep telling her that she's a killer.
The prolifers I know in real life, who are real activists, would never stoop so low.

reply from: Faramir

I agree with you. I'm pro-choice and not a Christian, so I suppose you will all hate my guts. I would think that the pro-life Christians on here would get along pretty well. Us pro-choicers get along fairly well (Rosalie, Spinwiddy, etc). But the pro-life Christians seem to despise even each other!
I think it's simply because this is an unmoderated "anything goes" board.
Most of the prolifers here really are nice and get along fairly well with each other.
Look past the four or five who seem to dominate, and you'll see that.

reply from: sk1bianca

true christians struggle not to hate anyone. besides, hate i stupid. pointless waste of energy
for those who support abortion in the case of rape... how exactly does abortion make the rape go away?
after a woman had some dirty, smelly, desgusting creep put his dirty infested genitals in her body, the last thing she needs is a doctor putting his steel instruments back in there and ripping out a living baby (which is also hers, by the way...).

reply from: Rosalie

AND THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT. If you view it as a bad thing and as an "assault", then by all means carry the pregnancy to the end. That's your choice, your prerogative.
But you need to accept that other women would view themselves being forced and used again against their will as horrifying, unacceptable and as an assault.
Is it just me or is this starting to sound like a really crappy haiku?
The song was made to resemble a nursery rhyme... it's very important for the plot of the movie. And I rather enjoy Kaylie's twist on it.

reply from: Rosalie

all fixed
So you don't care about women, you don't care that they were abused and that you promote further abuse.
Well, not that this comes as a surprise.
It was YOU who equated rape to headache. You are sick.

reply from: faithman

all fixed
So you don't care about women, you don't care that they were abused and that you promote further abuse.
Well, not that this comes as a surprise.
It was YOU who equated rape to headache. You are sick.
What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: Teresa18

She and the child are both innocent victims of an aggressive crime. The child never asked to be created. He/she was an unconsenting party just as the woman was. Not only is the man a rapist, but he is also an abusive and negligent father. She can take the aggression imposed on her during the rape and impose it on the innocent child, but then she would be acting as an agent of his aggression. She would have an innocent person, her own child, killed for the crime of his/her father.
What is pro-woman about giving a woman a pill that will cause severe cramps and bleeding as it destroys the life within her? What is pro-woman about putting a woman on a table, lifting her legs, and sticking a hose 29 times stronger than your household vacuum inside of her womb to suck out the life within her? What is pro-woman about sticking a hook-shaped knife inside her womb, chopping the life within her to bits, and scraping it out? What is pro-woman about sticking forceps inside her womb, twisting and tearing the life within her (snapping the spine and crushing the skull), and removing dismembered remains? Is this your idea of helping a rape victim - sticking medical utensils inside and killing an innocent child that IS of her own flesh and blood?
How will killing an innocent victim of a crime, the woman's own child, undue the rape? The answer is that it won't. Rape can't be undone. The ideal solution is to treat the woman and her child as victims of a crime and provide the necessary medical care, counseling, and other aid.

reply from: scopia19822

"How will killing an innocent victim of a crime, the woman's own child, undue the rape? The answer is that it won't. Rape can't be undone. The ideal solution is to treat the woman and her child as victims of a crime and provide the necessary medical care, counseling, and other aid."
It wont, but the proabortion lobby would have these victims think that the nice abortion will make it all go away. IMHO a woman who aborts her child of rape is still letting the rapist have that power and control over her. Advocating abortion after a rape is the same thing as given a mentally distressed person a gun to commit suicide. There are 2 victims to consider and both deserve to be treated with dignty. Killing the unborn child is anything but dignified.

reply from: churchmouse

Oh no I don't hate you at all. I think your positions are terribly wrong and I feel sorry for anyone unsaved and living life by their own rules.......really making them up as they go along. Rules that will suit their lifestyle.
You pro-choicers and pagans get along because you don't think anything is wrong. LOL There are no absolutes for you guys, its whatever you think is right.
Rome went down because of lifestyles like that.
Spinwiddy is vile, she is only here to bash Christians and praise the act of abortion. I pity her because she is so angry. You don't seem to be angry. SHE IS and is crude about it. She likes to tear down.
She has no moral base, none at all.
Well you are right on many levels here.
When you are so passionate about something it affects you. I lay in bed at night and think about the act of abortion and I sob. I literally sob. It is an act of killing ....something you pro-choicers have a hard time saying. You use different terms to describe what really happens. It must be a coping mechanism.
But to think of an abortionist going into a womb which should be a safe place for all growing humans, and literally tearing, burning apart a live human being.....is ....its ungodly, its inhumane, something that we dont even do to animals. I certainly hope you think we are above animals on the chain.
It is hard to speak to people who condone abortion on any level. But we should do it with a Christlike heart, there are no excuses.
Well for the person who does not hold to any belief in god, I suppose you could talk to anyone anyway you wish.......because nothing is wrong or unacceptable. So for you someone like spinwiddy is acting appropriately. Or isnt she? I am sure you have read her posts.....what do you think?
I think this board is moderated very good, excellent in fact. They allow free speech which is more than I can about a lot of sites....including the biggest joke of them all Beliefnet where you can't use the term, pro-abortion.
Well I do not support abortion in the case of rape. It is no fault of the child if an act of violence happened to the mother. And if you went into a nursery full of babies, do you think you could pick out the child whose mother was raped? No. They all have one thing in common, they are human beings that deserve the chance at life.
I agree with scopia......rape is an assault, but so is abortion. It is the worst kind of child abuse.
We live in a country that is suppose to protect life. We don't. Millions of innocent babies are killed every year. If we can allow a woman to choose to kill, what we all know today is a human being (technology and science are on the side of life and can verify that life starts at conception) why not allow a mother to kill a living child. I mean lets free Cassie Anthony from jail and let her go home. We have always been a nation that protects.....and we throw precious babies under the bus. Why? Because we think a woman has the right to kill

TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKE A RIGHT.
Right on......
Murder can never be dignified.

reply from: micah

Quite the reverse. I think a lot of things are wrong and should be punished by the law. Ask me for my opinion on terrorists or child rapists.
Furthermore, I don't make up my morals to suit my lifestyle. While I'm pro-choice, I've never had an abortion. In fact, I've only had sex with my husband. I think you have a lot of preconceived ideas about pro-choicers that they're the devil or something.

reply from: micah

It won't. But putting the guy is prison won't undue the rape either. The idea is making sure the woman doesn't suffer further harm.

reply from: faithman

You just don't believe that the womb child should enjoy equality with the born child. But niether do most "pro-lifers". You would probly fit right in. But me thinks you are more honest than that. A least you are up front about legally killing pre-born children [unlike profetii killers like CM].

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yet abortion is NOT wrong. I see.
Why not? If it's not wrong, what's wrong with having them?
My dog says not to judge other people EV ER.

reply from: ChristianLott2

It's a waste of time to hate people/individuals. Hate evil. Hate evil acts. Put the people who willfully do evil acts behind bars so they don't hurt other people.

reply from: faithman

Yet abortion is NOT wrong. I see.
Why not? If it's not wrong, what's wrong with having them?
My dog says not to judge other people EV ER.
Is your dog named CM? If so, you need to keep it off of your computer. Dog crap means dead babies.

reply from: Rosalie

That is a very ignorant and stupid statement.
The thing is that we don't believe your patriarchal, badly translated, heavily edited creepy book and don't base our "morals" on that. That's what you don't want to accept and understand.
I can't speak for Pagans, of course, as I am not Pagan.

reply from: Rosalie

The woman never asked to be raped, either. And she is sure as hell not asking to be even more violated.
I strongly disagree with your use of the word "father". Not everyone who helps create a child is a father, just like not everyone who gives birth is a mother.
It's not about redirecting aggression. It's about the fact that she had been violated in the worst way possible and to force her to undergo what resulted from that traumatic experience against her will is just plain evil.
If it's done against her will, it is not pro-woman. If it's what she really wants, then it is pro-woman.
And you should know that your rhetoric amuses me; I'm not sure why you use it but it doesn't have the desired effect on me, quite the contrary.
It's NOT about undoing rape. It's about the woman not wanting the abuse of her body and mind to continue via an unwanted pregnancy she would be forced to endure.

reply from: faithman

That is a very ignorant and stupid statement.
The thing is that we don't believe your patriarchal, badly translated, heavily edited creepy book and don't base our "morals" on that. That's what you don't want to accept and understand.
I can't speak for Pagans, of course, as I am not Pagan.
Killers have to blur that line to justify their evil deeds. Darkness avoids light, because it is exposed for what it is in light. The borties want to cover their issue, and as the profetii killer has said herself," fight tooth and toenail" against the light of personhood for the womb child. Personhood is the light. The line drawn in the sand. The distinction between false and true. If things seem shadowy, it is no time to compromise. It is time to turn up the light of personhood until there is no more "what if" shadows. Just the simple fact of womb child personhood, and the final judgment of citizen jurist as to what punishment for those who destroy the preborn. That is the way it is for the born person, that is the way it should be with the womb child person.

reply from: Rosalie

No one reads your spam, JSYK.

reply from: faithman

Killers have to blur that line to justify their evil deeds. Darkness avoids light, because it is exposed for what it is in light. The borties want to cover their issue, and as the profetii killer has said herself," fight tooth and toenail" against the light of personhood for the womb child. Personhood is the light. The line drawn in the sand. The distinction between false and true. If things seem shadowy, it is no time to compromise. It is time to turn up the light of personhood until there is no more "what if" shadows. Just the simple fact of womb child personhood, and the final judgment of citizen jurist as to what punishment for those who destroy the preborn. That is the way it is for the born person, that is the way it should be with the womb child person.

reply from: churchmouse

But that is your opinion right? What about the radical islamic terrorists who dont share your opinion. What makes you think your opinion is the right one/ You say Chritians are wrong. Can you prove that with 100% accuracy?
There were millions of people around the world that clapped and cheered when those towers came down on 9-11. They were clapping for what they thought were legitamate reasons. Were they wrong? They see us as evil? Are they wrong? We saw their acts as evil? Were we wrong?
Well you do whether you like it or not. Your moral compass comes from you and what YOU think is right. Sure you have never had an abortion......but have you ever done other things that are considered bad?
I think if you, if anyone condones abortion, they are warped. It's like saying I'm against child abuse and I wouldnt do it to one of my own......but I can't tell someone what to do with their own children.
Do you consider an unborn a person? yes or no
If you do then they are equal to any life on earth that has been born. And if you think they are a person and it would be murder to kill a born person, how can you condone killing one in the womb?
What kind of a person would condone killing a child for any reason?
He should pay for the crime against the woman. Rape is illegal in this country and he committed a violent act. She will suffer twice if she aborts. One for her rape and the one that she committed the abortion.
I do believe the unborn is equal to any living human being. Why would you say that? I have stated my position very clearly. You know faithman I can see you have passion for the unborn, that I do not question. But is your passion more than your passion for Christ and the Word?
Christ should take center stage, every Christian should know that. And as a Christian as hard as it is, we are to do what Christ commands. And Christ commands you to love your enemy. Obviously you have a lot of hate, because thats the message I am getting here.
Would you make the same comments you do here particularly about Carole if Christ were standing in front of you? I should hope not.
She might be wrong......but that does not excuse our actions and words towards her. There might be baby Christians or those on the line thinking about accepting Christ here.......and we should show them what they need and how to get it. We need to speak the truth, but do it according to Gods way. As bad and horrendous as abortion is.......we need to speak like Christ spoke to people.
Rosalie said, "The thing is that we don't believe your patriarchal, badly translated, heavily edited creepy book and don't base our "morals" on that. That's what you don't want to accept and understand. I can't speak for Pagans, of course, as I am not Pagan."
What is your worldview?
There are lots of definitions for the word pagan but I basically consider anyone a pagan if they deny Christ.
And the Bible is not badly translated. In fact it was in this thread or another one, where I compared the Bible and its manuscripts to ancient literary works. You can't compare them......the Bible overwhelmingly comes out on top.
Why do you suppose it's the worlds best selling book? Who is buying it? Are they all wrong? LOL
I mean its the number one best selling book of ALL TIMES.........
Yes it is. Does the child in the womb deserve to be torn apart alive? Yes the woman was violated.......does it make sense to then turn around and violate another human being?
How cruel, how sadistic is that?
I totally agree. They use different terms to describe the same procedure, anything to mask the truth.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Is your dog named CM? If so, you need to keep it off of your computer. Dog crap means dead babies.
Dog's name is manson. He says that we need to stop judging everyone and have anarchy. He also says dead babies are AWESOME and part of gods 'master plan'. It's all part of His 'freedom for free' initiative.

reply from: ChristianLott2

He also says good christians should always keep quite and hide when confronted with evil. He says that's the only way there can be peace because christians are born trouble makers and always screw things up for everybody else. He also said last night that the best christian is a dead one and we should all make martyrs out of ourselves so we can see bejuzus sooner.

reply from: faithman

But that is your opinion right? What about the radical islamic terrorists who dont share your opinion. What makes you think your opinion is the right one/ You say Chritians are wrong. Can you prove that with 100% accuracy?
There were millions of people around the world that clapped and cheered when those towers came down on 9-11. They were clapping for what they thought were legitamate reasons. Were they wrong? They see us as evil? Are they wrong? We saw their acts as evil? Were we wrong?
Well you do whether you like it or not. Your moral compass comes from you and what YOU think is right. Sure you have never had an abortion......but have you ever done other things that are considered bad?
I think if you, if anyone condones abortion, they are warped. It's like saying I'm against child abuse and I wouldnt do it to one of my own......but I can't tell someone what to do with their own children.
Do you consider an unborn a person? yes or no
If you do then they are equal to any life on earth that has been born. And if you think they are a person and it would be murder to kill a born person, how can you condone killing one in the womb?
What kind of a person would condone killing a child for any reason?
He should pay for the crime against the woman. Rape is illegal in this country and he committed a violent act. She will suffer twice if she aborts. One for her rape and the one that she committed the abortion.
I do believe the unborn is equal to any living human being. Why would you say that? I have stated my position very clearly. You know faithman I can see you have passion for the unborn, that I do not question. But is your passion more than your passion for Christ and the Word?
Christ should take center stage, every Christian should know that. And as a Christian as hard as it is, we are to do what Christ commands. And Christ commands you to love your enemy. Obviously you have a lot of hate, because thats the message I am getting here.
Would you make the same comments you do here particularly about Carole if Christ were standing in front of you? I should hope not.
She might be wrong......but that does not excuse our actions and words towards her. There might be baby Christians or those on the line thinking about accepting Christ here.......and we should show them what they need and how to get it. We need to speak the truth, but do it according to Gods way. As bad and horrendous as abortion is.......we need to speak like Christ spoke to people.
Rosalie said, "The thing is that we don't believe your patriarchal, badly translated, heavily edited creepy book and don't base our "morals" on that. That's what you don't want to accept and understand. I can't speak for Pagans, of course, as I am not Pagan."
What is your worldview?
There are lots of definitions for the word pagan but I basically consider anyone a pagan if they deny Christ.
And the Bible is not badly translated. In fact it was in this thread or another one, where I compared the Bible and its manuscripts to ancient literary works. You can't compare them......the Bible overwhelmingly comes out on top.
Why do you suppose it's the worlds best selling book? Who is buying it? Are they all wrong? LOL
I mean its the number one best selling book of ALL TIMES.........
Yes it is. Does the child in the womb deserve to be torn apart alive? Yes the woman was violated.......does it make sense to then turn around and violate another human being?
How cruel, how sadistic is that?
I totally agree. They use different terms to describe the same procedure, anything to mask the truth.
Hey kiddo, you got me wrong. CM also stands for carolemarie. I have always apreciated what you do here.

reply from: yoda

I think your dog deserves a place on your list.

reply from: nancyu

That's what you think, BYW.

reply from: nancyu

The woman never asked to be raped, either. And she is sure as hell not asking to be even more violated.
I strongly disagree with your use of the word "father". Not everyone who helps create a child is a father, just like not everyone who gives birth is a mother.
It's not about redirecting aggression. It's about the fact that she had been violated in the worst way possible and to force her to undergo what resulted from that traumatic experience against her will is just plain evil.
If it's done against her will, it is not pro-woman. If it's what she really wants, then it is pro-woman.
And you should know that your rhetoric amuses me; I'm not sure why you use it but it doesn't have the desired effect on me, quite the contrary.
It's NOT about undoing rape. It's about the woman not wanting the abuse of her body and mind to continue via an unwanted pregnancy she would be forced to endure.
You know Rosalie, I could almost agree with everything in your post up until here: "...to continue via an unwanted pregnancy"
You seem to be somewhat honest and truthful (I mean as far as a pro abort wad of tissue can be) But to be honest, to be truthful, you have to say "unwanted child."
If it was just an unwanted pregnancy, even I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it's a little bit more than that. She is pregnant with a child. Try to keep that in mind. Just try.

reply from: ChristianLott2

oh yeah, 'lil manson is the faux life mascot.

reply from: nancyu

you do worse than nothing. you come here and whine and snipe the true pro lifers and try to claim glory for yourself and you're not even pro life.
now you say that after you've started multiple yv bashing threads and cried a bloody red river over it.
and all you do is chat with your little girl friends down at the abortion mill and pass out chocolates. then vouch for murdering babies all with the same mouth.
oooohhh. now you're just in love w/ fm and yv! rofl.
I am being pro life by warning others about you and your phony gang.
Why don't you get your mind straight before you go out and ruin others?
At least most pro abort say they are such. Stop lying!
This is a new better movement we're starting here. We're sick of you phony faux lifers. Instead of wasting our time trying to convert pro aborts, we're going to solidify our base of REAL pro lifers. We're sick of the phony rape excuse. We're sick of you bullies trying to guilt us out of love for the pre born!
You need to go look at yourself in the mirror and feel some shame for once. You need to stop this sick phony 'love' you have that somehow makes women MORE IMPORTANT than their babies.
Yeah, you're getting a scolding and you need it. you need to stop vouching for murder and 'choice'.
That is my contribution to pro life and you need to take some time out and respect it.
CL your posts in this thread are genius. Too bad pro aborts are just too stupid to understand.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Thanks. How'd you like my cm vs the abortion wolf stories?
I really have so much fun attacking those who deserve it. It's such a shame phony 'christians' keep telling me how wrong it is. The real Jesus wasn't afraid to overturn the money changers tables and raise hell about injustice and lies. That's a real hero. Who are they worshiping? Probably my dog

reply from: Teresa18

Of course not, but pregnancy is not a violation by nature.
I simply mean he is the father from a biological standpoint.
It is. She's taking the aggression he imposed on her and using it to kill an innocent child - her innocent child. An innocent child is being killed for his/her father's crime. To pose an example, let's say a woman is married to a man who decides to rape her. After the rape, she proceeds to kill their son because she wants nothing to do with the child of a rapist, even though he is also her child. She rations he looks like his father and would serve as a constant reminder of the rape. Not to mention he could grow up the same way. Is she justified in redirecting the aggression towards the son?
Of course she was violated in one of the worst ways imaginable, but like I said, the child is guilty of no crime. The child is as innocent as the woman. The rape is over. Pregnancy is not rape. She has a child. The question is does she now wish to follow up the rape by having a live child or a dead child?
How can you find descriptions of procedures involving women and killing children everyday in this country amusing? What is so amusing about 1.3 million fellow persons killed per year?
Pregnancy is not rape or abuse.

reply from: sk1bianca

Rosalie, you said "If it's what she really wants, then it is pro-woman."
but i keep hearing pro-choicers saying no woman really "wants" an abortion (and i agree, it's a horrible procedure).
so, applying your logic, abortion is always against her will. therefore it can't be pro-woman.

reply from: Teresa18

Uh oh, there you go confusing them with their own rhetoric.

reply from: Rosalie

Nope, because in that case the sentence would make sense. I know most of you have no idea that such thing as grammar exists in the English language but alas! it does and sentences are supposed to make sense.
I am NOT denying that women are pregnant with children (DUH!), but I prefer making grammatically correct statements and what you suggest wouldn't make any sense.
And I know you probably meant to insult me by calling me "a pro-abort wad of tissue" but I have to inform you that you didn't succeed. You're only making yourself look like a bully and a fanatic when you do that.

reply from: Rosalie

That's very subjective. If it is imposed on you, then yes, it might be viewed that way.
I know what you meant but I really cringe at that use of the word in such situation. I make a difference between someone who basically just donated their sperm and an involved father.
It's NOT about redirecting aggression, which I have just explained to you, but you can by all means ignore my explanation, if you think you know better. I have nothing more to say to you, really. I have shown you that your opinion on how many women feel in this situation is incorrect - if you want to ignore it because you're incapable of letting go of your prejudice then that' your prerogative.
Your example makes no sense because the already born son is by no means violating her bodily autonomy further as he didn't result from the first abuse of her bodily autonomy (=rape).
I find your wording amusing. You just cannot go of the emotive speak and it's very funny.
You didn't get it so I will repost:
It's NOT about undoing rape. It's about the woman not wanting the abuse of her body and mind to continue via an unwanted pregnancy she would be forced to endure.
Kindly re-read that statement because you just repeated words that had nothing to do with what you have quoted.
Nice try to twist what people are saying but you fail. Nobody wants an abortion as in if everyone could choose, I believe that everyone would choose not to ever have an unwanted or health/life threatening pregnancy. Why would anyone want that? But WHEN such situation actually occurs, then the woman may or may not choose to continue her pregnancy.
Would you rather your appendix burst so you'd have to have it taken out or would you rather not even be aware that you have one?
Do you understand that now or do you want me to explain it to you again?

reply from: Rosalie

Wait.. what?
Nice try to twist what people are saying but you fail. Nobody wants an abortion as in if everyone could choose, I believe that everyone would choose not to ever have an unwanted or health/life threatening pregnancy. Why would anyone want that? But WHEN such situation actually occurs, then the woman may or may not choose to continue her pregnancy.
Would you rather your appendix burst so you'd have to have it taken out or would you rather not even be aware that you have one?
You really don't understand that? And what exactly don't you understand about it?

reply from: KaylieBee

Is it just me or is this starting to sound like a really crappy haiku?
Just you.
Too many syllables for a haiku, bb.

reply from: nancyu

Thanks. How'd you like my cm vs the abortion wolf stories?
They were my favorites! Hysterically funny, (if only they weren't so true )
Yeah, they must be dylsexic. (It's God, not Dog--silly borties)

reply from: nancyu

Nope, because in that case the sentence would make sense. I know most of you have no idea that such thing as grammar exists in the English language but alas! it does and sentences are supposed to make sense.
I am NOT denying that women are pregnant with children (DUH!), but I prefer making grammatically correct statements and what you suggest wouldn't make any sense.
And I know you probably meant to insult me by calling me "a pro-abort wad of tissue" but I have to inform you that you didn't succeed. You're only making yourself look like a bully and a fanatic when you do that.
I didn't mean to insult you Rosalie. It's not possible to insult something which has no conscience. And I'm not worried about a fanatic baby killing bully calling me names. The only things that believe you are other fanatic baby killing bullies.

reply from: Rosalie

You just failed again. How sad.

reply from: nancyu

You just failed again. How sad.
Failed what dork?

reply from: yoda

Uh oh, there you go confusing them with their own rhetoric.
ROTFLMAO!!!

reply from: Rosalie

Failed to insult me. You keep trying so hard and with no results.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Failed to insult me. You keep trying so hard and with no results.
You? You are not a person. There is nothing to insult.

reply from: daveS

How about compasion for the woman.....oh I forgot nobody here understands that. Until you have been raped you have no place to decide what should happen.

reply from: ChristianLott2

No, we've never heard of that. Have YOU been raped? Have YOU had an abortion?

reply from: BossMomma

A few of us here have been raped and know exactly what it's like. Why not try getting to know a few of us before blurting out your idiocy. I am all for compassion for women which is why I do not protest outside of clinics but rather advertise women's resources to help women choose life.

reply from: yoda

Your avatar is that of a man.... so HAVE YOU been raped?
Also, if you haven't been murdered, do you have any "place" to say what should happen to a murderer?

reply from: Rosalie

Failed to insult me. You keep trying so hard and with no results.
You? You are not a person. There is nothing to insult.
Really, hypocrite? My goodness, you are a bunch of freaks.

reply from: faithman

Failed to insult me. You keep trying so hard and with no results.
You? You are not a person. There is nothing to insult.
Really, hypocrite? My goodness, you are a bunch of freaks.
What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: ChristianLott2

You're just a wad of tissue in need of abortion.

reply from: BossMomma

You're just a wad of tissue in need of abortion.
My what a pro-life statement. You sound more like a pro-death borthead every day.

reply from: JRH

Failed to insult me. You keep trying so hard and with no results.
You? You are not a person. There is nothing to insult.
Really, hypocrite? My goodness, you are a bunch of freaks.
What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.
If your god does exist is it not better than the fetus goes to heaven? If they live on Earth there is a chance that they will not be saved and go to hell. Abortion must have saved countless souls from the fire.

reply from: Teresa18

I'm not ignoring you. I disagree with you, and I explained why that is.
What if she is breastfeeding and the child needs to breast milk to survive? She uses her body to lift the child, feed the child, clothe the child, and bathe the child. If there is no one around that can immediately take care of the child, she can't just drop the child on the floor and walk away.
One point three million dead children a year is an emotional topic.
I'm saying that pregnancy is not abuse. The physical abuse of her body due to the rape ended when the rape ended. The emotional abuse may continue, but that is due to the psychological consequences of the rape, not the pregnancy.

reply from: faithman

Oh yeah. Electively killing some innocent person is always the most compassionate, the kindest thing you can do for them. Why, it's like the ultimate act of love.
oh yeah. it's totally awesome and cool. it's the only way to go if you've been raped, carole said. The rest of the faux lifers didn't want to come right out and say it, but they agreed with the ahhh.. verdict however demurely.
I tell ya, better the mangled corpse of your child in a bag than a new baby.
Saves her self importance-... ahhh.. esteem. Gives them a feeling of accomplishment.
Abortion is also important to the "working girl" on the street corner. Gotta make them bucks to buy another pair of spiky whore shoes don't ya know. Can't have a little brat or 3 getting in the way of the job now can we?

reply from: Rosalie

You're just a wad of tissue in need of abortion.
Now that's what a call a ultimately pro-life statement. Look at yourself - and you have the guts to call other people "faux pro-lifers"?
How is it that it's okay for you to advocate something you claim to abhor, something you claim to be a murder?

reply from: churchmouse

I think a lot of woman dont care except that if you have had an abortion you know its painful.....so like getting your teeth cleaned, for some women its something you would dread.
You do have a choice however. And if you have sex you know their might be consequences....pregnanc being one of them. And if you take that chance the fault rests on you.......NOT THE UNBORN. You talk about pregnancy like its some big medical feat. It is natural. For many women there might be some uncomfortable days......but pregnancy only lasts 9 months.
No nancy did not fail. You just dont know what the truth is because when you think about evil and your lifestyle is evil and dark, you dont know what real truth looks like. But Christ can change your life if you allow Him the opportunity. You need to come to terms with your own sinfulness and repent. Try opening your heart to Him, its lifechanging.
You wont admit if you are insulted here because of pride. And that is ok. You are not the only one here with pride.
Dont listen to people like ChristianLott who pretends to know what the truth is. Their actions are anything but godly.
You are a person in Gods eyes and He is waiting for you to come to Him. Please try to seek Him out. Christ does not want us to act like many of the Christians here who only pretend to know what the Word says.
Some care about the women. They should not be forgotten. God cares about everyone involved. But some people like to show their rage they want revenge. And what makes them feel good are to call names.....throw stones.
They dont care about anything but the unborn. They forget about the plan, Gods plan. They forget about how God saved them by his unmerited favor, GRACE. They dont want these woman to know that because they believe THEY DO NOT DESERVE IT. They cant get past their own hatred.
You are wrong dave. Everyone should care about this issue, whether they have had an abortion or not. I could say the same thing about abortion. Until you have had an abortion you shouldnt even be discussing this and in that case the stone throwers on this thread would have to leave. In fact most people would have to leave.....except the ones that have shared their abortions here on this thread.

Have you had one? Why are you here if you think you have to experience an abortion to be able to talk about them?
This is uncalled for. It shows your heart. You are no Christian Lott.
There isnt a more emotional topic than abortion. Those with a conscience it hits hard. Those without one it does not seem to matter.
I got to thinking and started a thread that has to do with this entire conversation. Christians,"What is the Truth" ?

reply from: faithman

What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: Rosalie

She did. All so many of you can do is insult and continue your Bible thumping. How sad. You could be actually reaching people, helping out women - but no, it's better to spread the word about God's wrath and insult pro-choicers. That's all you can do. Keep your "God", I'm not interested. Your religion contradicts my beliefs.
Also, churchmouse, what do you know about my lifestyle that you call it evil and dark? Tell me, let's have a laugh.
I am not insulted because I'm just not. Bible-thumping, hateful fanatics on the internet do not have what it takes to insult me.

reply from: sk1bianca

churchmouse seems to be truly concerned about you. there is nothing hateful or fanatic in that post. stop being oversensitive.

reply from: lukesmom

Overcoming Rape
I became pregnant at age 18 through acquaintance rape by a neighbor. I didn't know that what he had done was considered criminal sexual assault and was against the law. I was so numb that I felt like I was dead, so I told no one about the rape. My mother died when I was 12, and my alcoholic father abused my six younger siblings and me on a daily basis. Shortly after I found out I was pregnant my father kicked me out of the house for good. I was literally homeless, jobless, motherless, penniless, pregnant, and alone. Everyone was encouraging and pressuring me to get an abortion saying things like, "You know what you have to do." I was even offered money to "get rid of it." I had no support and at times I felt like I was drowning in darkness. Yet I had one magnificent secret gift - the flourishing life of my unborn baby. This life gave me a thread of hope to begin to heal. After 29 hours of prolonged labor, I gave birth to a precious baby girl with blue eyes and dark hair, so tiny and so vulnerable. I named her Jennifer, and I knew she was a sacred gift to be loved and cherished. My daughter is wonderful and she has touched many lives including my own. I am so thankful for giving birth to her; I have no regrets.
If you have been raped, please realize the worst is over. I want to encourage you to reach out for help to start the healing process. My own painful experience is a reminder of what can happen when boundaries are crossed and sex is used as power and control. It is so important to wait until marriage! I claimed second virginity until I married a wonderful man who adopted my daughter. If you have been raped, please realize that virginity is not something that can be taken from you; it is a gift that you choose to give. You may not physically be a virgin, but you can decide in your heart to choose second virginity and save that gift for your husband on your wedding night. You'll never regret choosing to wait until marriage!
-Cindy
Jennifer (Cindy's daughter) writes:
Going through junior high and high school people would often say to me, "I'm against abortion except in the cases of rape and incest." You can imagine how I felt when they said that! They thought abortion was a bad thing - except in my case. That was pretty scary from my point of view. When I would tell someone that I was conceived during an acquaintance rape I would always see a transformation in their face. I could tell that they were realizing their double standard. They would finally recognize that I (the baby) didn't deserve to die just because of my father's crime.
http://prenatalpartnersforlife.org/Stories/StoriesOtherCindyJenni.htm

reply from: lukesmom

I was adopted nearly from birth. At 18, I learned that I was conceived out of a brutal rape at knife-point by a serial rapist. Like most people, I'd never considered that abortion applied to my life, but once I received this information, all of a sudden I realized that, not only does it apply to my life, but it has to do with my very existence. It was as if I could hear the echoes of all those people who, with the most sympathetic of tones, would say, "Well, except in cases of rape. . . ", or who would rather fervently exclaim in disgust: "Especially is cases of rape!!!" All these people are out there who don't even know me, but are standing in judgment of my life, so quick to dismiss it just because of how I was conceived. I felt like I was now going to have to justify my own existence, that I would have to prove myself to the world that I shouldn't have been aborted and that I was worthy of living. I also remember feeling like garbage because of people who would say that my life was like garbage -- that it was disposable.
Please understand that whenever you identify yourself as being "pro-choice", or whenever you make that exception for rape, that what that really translates into is you being able to stand before me, look me in the eye, and say to me, 'I think your mother should have been able to abort you.'" That's a pretty powerful statement. I would never say anything like that to someone. I would never to someone, "If I had my way, you'd be dead right now."
More at: http://sibbyonline.blogs.com/sibbyonline/2006/09/three_lives_con.html

reply from: lukesmom

Jennifer is definitely pro-life. We asked her about the popular opinion that rape victims should be given abortions, that it's the kindest thing one can do for the baby. Jennifer's reply was adamant. She doesn't think anybody should have had the right to kill her as a fetus. "It's like a mercy killing. I don't want people who are not in my circumstances making decisions for me. It's my right to decide whether to be alive or not."
Looking at the life she has now, she doesn't think that anybody should pass judgment on her quality of life. "I wish people would stop equating us to the act that brought us here."
She adds that coming to terms with a traumatic event like rape is very difficult, and a pregnant rape victim may honestly feel that she cannot love the child the way a child should be loved. The truly loving response is adoption. She is personally grateful for her wonderful adoptive parents as well as the birth mother who welcomed her back.
Society doesn't know how to deal with children who are the result of rape. The mixed messages that Jennifer gets would confuse anybody. One lady, for instance, made some terribly derogatory comments about the children of rape and was saying that those babies absolutely should be aborted. Finally, Jennifer said, "Excuse me, but I'm one of those children." The woman immediately said, "Oh, but that has no bearing on you."
more: http://www.righttoliferoch.org/nforgotten.htm

reply from: lukesmom

Allison Shoup's story, conceived in rape from a severely developmentally-disabled birthmother.
Over and over I have heard the arguments on why abortion should be legal. Even those who do not count
themselves in the 'women's rights' category often agree that in tragic cases a woman has the right to
dispose of her unborn baby. Among the most popular of these 'justified' reasons for abortion are rape, the
potential handicap of a child, and the financial burden that the child will bring. Each time I hear these
arguments, I cringe. But, instead of merely telling them the blanket statement that "all life is important," I
share with them the following true story and allow them to make their decision about whether a life should
be taken because of another's mistake.
An older couple lived a long, hard life. Raising a daughter with a severe mental handicap brought both joys and trials.
God helped them through it all, but this was just one more trial these elderly people had to bear. As they sat in the
doctor's office, their worst nightmare came true; their daughter was pregnant.
To make matters worse, the baby's father didn't want anything to do with the baby. He was a Native American, living on a
reservation. Alcohol had enslaved him, and he was too numb to care. He just wanted the woman to have an abortion and
get rid of the child altogether. After all, the mother was so severely handicapped that she didn't even know she was
pregnant, and her parents were too old to raise the baby. He cared only about his addiction - alcohol.
The parents were fully aware of this. They also were concerned that the child could end up with the same mental
disability as their daughter. They could not bear to have the unborn child live a life like their daughter's. They also knew
that there were few to no families willing to adopt a child who had or could develop a cognitive disability. Over and over,
these things weighed on their minds.
Time passed. It had been a very long nine months, but God's grace sustained them through it. Despite all the odds, they
knew that abortion was murder. They couldn't live knowing that they had taken an innocent life. They decided to place
the baby for adoption and prayed that a loving couple would be willing to accept what could be a less-than-normal child.
Being Christians, they requested that the child be put in a Christian home, and they knew that the caseworker would do
her best to find a great family for their precious baby girl. Little did they know what was happening only miles from where
the baby was born.
There was a young couple named Tim and Betty who had been married for 13 years but were unable to have children.
They wanted children so badly that they applied for adoption. As they waited, they just couldn't understand why people
would have abortions while knowing that there were couples out there that wanted children. It was so cruel, so unjust.
They were about to give up and settle with the idea of never having children, but soon that all changed.
Tim loved running local road races that supported charities, and Betty always cheered him on as he raced to the finish.
July 22, 1985, was no different. That day Tim was running the Toury Mott Run, a race to raise money for Hurley
Hospital's Children's Center. As Tim crossed the finish line right in front of the hospital, he walked over to Betty. He knew
that she had been very discouraged about not being able to have a baby. It had been two years since they had applied
for adoption, yet they still hadn't heard anything. So he pulled her aside, pointed up to the hospital window and said,
"You never know. Our baby might be up there right now."
Amazingly, he was right. The woman had given birth early that morning, and by that time the child was in the baby care
unit. Fourteen months later, Tim and Betty brought that baby girl home to stay.
That little baby that could have been aborted - that little baby whose birth father had raped her mentally handicapped
birth mother; that little baby whose mother thought she was a doll; that baby whose grandparents were too old to be able
to take care of her; that little baby whom everyone thought could have had a severe handicap; that little baby whom God
had given life. That little baby, who is alive and healthy, is the author of this story.
Let me ask you, "Was my life not worth saving? Should I have died merely because of all of these tragedies that led up to
my birth?" Absolutely not! Just because a child may have a handicap or disability does not mean his or her life is worth
less than anyone else's. According to the United States Declaration of Independence, "All men are created equal and are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of
Happiness." These rights rang through our country until January 22, 1973. In the case, Roe vs. Wade, the Supreme
Court legalized abortion -- stripping innocent children of the very first right mentioned in the Declaration of
Independence. It was a ruling that allowed a saline solution to be injected into the baby for the purpose of burning it to
death, and it paved the way for doctors to stick a tube in the child's head and vacuum out its tiny brain. And all this is
done because two adults don't want to have to deal with the inconvenience of having a child. Nevertheless, what about
that child? Why should the baby have to pay with his or her life?
Many times I have heard pro-abortionists argue that abortion is the expression of a woman's rights -- to ban abortion would be to take away her rights.
What about that baby girl that she is carrying inside of her? What happened to that little
woman's rights?
What about the little boy who never had the chance to grow up and make something of his life? Why
should one person's rights be sacrificed because they are an 'inconvenience' to another?
If a couple feels that they cannot provide the life that their baby deserves, abortion is never the answer. Just like my
parents, many couples want to have a child and would provide a wonderful home for that baby. Instead of selfishly killing
another human life, why not do the most sacrificial act and give that innocent child the chance of a wonderful life that he
or she deserves?
Many women have faced a tragic pregnancy. Perhaps they were raped and wish to get rid of the painful memories
altogether. Sometimes women are afraid that their child will be abnormal and do not want to bring a less-than-perfect
child into this brutal society. Many people are afraid that they will not be able to financially support a child. Thus,
thousands of innocent children are murdered each year under the umbrella of 'freedom of choice.'
However, it is time that
we teach these adults that all life is equally important. Just because a couple may not want the child does not mean that
child should be denied the right to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.'
-- Allison Shoup

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/847534

reply from: lukesmom

Rape, Incest and Abortion:
Searching Beyond the Myths
David C. Reardon, Ph.D.

"How can you deny an abortion to a twelve-year-old girl who is the victim of incest?" complains an indignant supporter of abortion. "And how can you call yourself a loving Christian if you would force a victim of violent rape to give birth to a rapist's child?"
Every pro-lifer has heard these same challenges in one form or another. They are the emotionally charged questions designed to prove either 1) that pro-lifers are insensitive "fetus lovers," 2) or ethically inconsistent, allowing abortion for some circumstances but not others.
Unfortunately, most pro-lifers have difficulty answering these challenges because the issue of sexual assault pregnancies is so widely misunderstood. Typically, both sides of the debate accept the presumption that women with sexual assault pregnancies would want an abortion and that the abortion would in some way help them to recover from the assault. Thus, the pro-lifer is left in the uncomfortable position of arguing that the sanctity of life is more important than the needs of the sexual assault victim with whom everyone should rightly sympathize.
But in fact, the welfare of the mother and child are never at odds, even in sexual assault cases. Both the mother and child are helped by preserving life, not by perpetuating violence.
The reason most people reach the wrong conclusion about abortion in cases of rape and incest is that the actual experiences of sexual assault victims who became pregnant are routinely left out of the debate. Most people, including sexual assault victims who have never been pregnant, are therefore forming opinions based on prejudices and fears which are disconnected from reality.
For example, it is commonly assumed that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions. But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent chose against abortion.1 This evidence alone should cause people to pause and reflect on the presumption that abortion is wanted or even best for sexual assault victims.
more: http://www.afterabortion.org/rape.html

reply from: micah

Churchmouse, you claim to know the will of God and to be on 1-on-1 terms with him. While you're certainly not the only one who does this, it does put you on a special level for pride.

reply from: micah

So your christian pro-lifers believe that Yahweh exists, sends many people to hell, but fetuses are guaranteed to go to heaven. If this is the case, then giving a child an abortion is really the most generous act you can do. By denying a child an abortion, you take a chance that he will be tortured forever.

reply from: churchmouse

Rosalie said,
I do reach out to people, most of us do because we work with organizations that help women. Hey I am a Christian Rosalie. There is nothin you can do to change that. If you dont like the verses or the preachyness of my posts.....you know what to do. If it offends you that much, put me on ignore. You wont ever stop me from witnessing.
Its because of Gods Wrath that i witness. Because the Bible says those who do not know Christ will not have eternal life. I dont want that to happen to you or anyone. You can say you are not interested but you cant stop me from reaching out to people about Him. I believe you are in the minority here.....I believe most of us are Christian. As I said if we offend you that much, find somewhere else to go. You are pro-abortion......I wonder why on earth you are here anyway.
God to secular sites. Go to atheistic sites......pagan sites. Go where you fit it then. We are pro-lifers. What that means is we are against the genocide against the unborn. We are anti-abortion because we believe the unbornCHILD is a human being that deserves personhood. We believe that the unborn child has worth its life equal to any living creature already born. The scriptures say this is the truth.
WHY ARE YOU HERE?
ABSOLUTELY. I have one thing to say, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel . . . "
Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of who I am, I am proud of who I am and how I got there. And I want to share it. When you find something worth keeping you want to share it.
He doesn't send them, they send themselves. God doesn't force you to accept or to reject Him. Your doing that yourself. No one to blame but you.
You have heard the Word and if you have heard it you will be held accountable.

reply from: micah

No, you don't believe an unborn child is equal to a born child. You say you believe it, but you don't. Your actions reflect your true beliefs. If a person killed an 8 year old, you wouldn't say things like "Oh well we need to feel sympathy both for the 8 year old and for the person who did it. They both are victims". You would never say, "I would never want to see people who murder 8 years olds in prison". You would never say, "I want to change the hearts and minds of people who murder 8 year olds".

reply from: Rosalie

Oh PLEASE. And I'm not being oversensitive, I just do not wish to accept her religion. It's not my fault she doesn't understand that.

reply from: lukesmom

Oh PLEASE. And I'm not being oversensitive, I just do not wish to accept her religion. It's not my fault she doesn't understand that.
Per church:

reply from: Rosalie

Why would I want to change who you are? First of all I don't even know you, you are a random person on the internet, and second of all - just WHY? I never said or implied anything like that. Why are you making stuff up?
Then I pity you.
I don't want eternal life OR your religion. I have my own beliefs and even though you are too bigoted to believe that, they are just as important to me as yours, and just as valid.
Oh feel free to think that you are reaching out. You are not. You are only being pushy and I don't like that.
If I wanted any information, I would go to Christians are truth, not internet Bible-thumpers. But I do NOT want any more information about your religion because I'm very aware of what it entails and what it is and I disagree with it on many levels. You just need to learn to live with the fact that people have different beliefs and they have just as much right to have them as you have the right to believe in your angry God.
Why? I'm not pagan. And I didn't see any rule that I have to be a Christian to be able to post here.
You are using the word in a wrong context and it only point to your stupidity. I find the people who use this word to describe anything else but the actual genocide despicable.
I have answered this question about 30 times already and I'm not going to repeat myself all the time just because you can't keep up.
And you never replied to my question: What do you know about my lifestyle that you call it evil and dark?

reply from: Rosalie

Oh PLEASE. And I'm not being oversensitive, I just do not wish to accept her religion. It's not my fault she doesn't understand that.
Per church:
And? Do you want to deny MY right to have MY own beliefs that are different from yours?

reply from: lukesmom

Oh PLEASE. And I'm not being oversensitive, I just do not wish to accept her religion. It's not my fault she doesn't understand that.
Per church:
And? Do you want to deny MY right to have MY own beliefs that are different from yours?
Now, in your own words, "you are a liar". I don't care what beliefs you have or nonbeliefs. I DO care if you intentionally kill human beings. Other than that you can do whatever you want. I could care less.
If you don't want to listen to others beliefs such as churchmouses, you do have the option to stop whinning and put her on ignore.

reply from: yoda

Some of us do. Others say "they aren't the same".

reply from: Rosalie

I can have an abortion whether you like it or not. I am not going to give up my reproductive choices just because someone like YOU thinks it's wrong to have an abortoin.
And calm the hell down. I never said ANYONE here doesn't have the right to express their beliefs. I just say I don't like them and I'm not going to accept them - and that obviously pisses you off more than anything else.

reply from: lukesmom

Your own words again, "Liar". You, once again, are putting words in my mouth and attributing emotions to me that I am not feeling. Ever hear what they say about "assuming"? If you haven't I would be glad to post it for you. If you don't like what churchmouse is posting, quichyour*****ing and put her on ignore. Or better yet, don't come here if it bothers you so much.
Funny but you seem to be the one teed off here. I was just giving you a few suggestions but hey, you gotta get all bent out of shape again... Girl, you should try some Prosac or something.

reply from: lukesmom

Some of us do. Others say "they aren't the same".
Yoda, it's kinda wasted on proaborts. I have found they just can't understand a parents love for their child, born and unborn. Makes me wonder about them when they were pregnant and expecting a ?, well, who knows what they thought they were going to have at birth if not a baby!

reply from: Rosalie

Your own words again, "Liar". You, once again, are putting words in my mouth and attributing emotions to me that I am not feeling. Ever hear what they say about "assuming"? If you haven't I would be glad to post it for you. If you don't like what churchmouse is posting, quichyour*****ing and put her on ignore. Or better yet, don't come here if it bothers you so much.
Funny but you seem to be the one teed off here. I was just giving you a few suggestions but hey, you gotta get all bent out of shape again... Girl, you should try some Prosac or something.
You sound very pissed off. That's how you came off in your last few posts to me. I made an observation. Deal with it.
And you forgot to damn me again, you compassionate, caring pro-lifer!

reply from: lukesmom

I wasn't. It takes me a lot to get pissed off, like attacking my kids, but that's another story and another proabort.
I didn't "damn" you. I don't have that power or desire. You and only you can damn yourself by your own actions.

reply from: Rosalie

Oh right, you were only too happy to tell me. But thanks, it truly amused me. If my actions damn me, so be it. I couldn't live with myself not being a pro-choice feminist. I'll gladly be damned for doing the right thing.

reply from: lukesmom

Shrug, your "choice". A "choice" you don't allow other humans, say unborn humans. Being "pro-choice/proabort" doesn't make you a feminist. It makes you a killer.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, I know, but we also have a faux-lifer who says that they are not "exactly the same", whatever that means. I asked if a newborn and a senior citizen were "exactly the same", but I never did get an answer. Lots of my questions never get answers, for some reason.

reply from: lukesmom

Yeah, I know, but we also have a faux-lifer who says that they are not "exactly the same", whatever that means. I asked if a newborn and a senior citizen were "exactly the same", but I never did get an answer. Lots of my questions never get answers, for some reason.
If you mean Carole when you say faux-lifer, she will have to answer for herself. I see the all humans regardless of level of developement as equal. That said, there is a difference in the grieving aspect. A co-worker's 18 yr old son was killed in an MVA on X-mas eve. A parent's worst nightmare. I can't imagine her grief. The pain of losing my baby was horrible but if my 16 yr old son was killed, just bury me next to him. I don't think I could live with that pain. That is not saying one life was more worthy or more expendable than the other. Maybe this doesn't have anything to do with the other but has been on my mind often as I post here and deal with grieving moms.
Truthfully, I never saw your question. Was really busy last week and not here very much. Sorry!

reply from: 4given

Life Issues Institute has a show entitled facing Life Head On.
This weeks episode entitled "Abortion: The Rape I Consented To" covers some of what has been discussed in this thread.
Here is a summary of the show:
"The abortion felt like I was being raped again, but I consented to it." Nicole Cooley speaks through tears as she recalls her decision to abort her child. After Nicole realized she was pregnant as a result of a date rape, everyone she sought guidance from said an abortion would be the best choice, but ultimately, it was her decision. Years later, Nicole has healed from the rape, but emotionally healing from her decision to abort her baby still lingers in her mind. She suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome after the birth of each of her three children. After much counseling, and loving support from her husband, today Nicole says she is in a much better place.
At a young age Rebecca Kiessling knew she was adopted. On her 18th birthday she began to search for her birth mother and father. After a few attempts, her case worker handed over paper work describing both biological parents. Rebecca realized her mother's information was a lot more descriptive than her father's. Reading the information spawned Rebecca to ask if it was a police report, which then led her to ask, "Was my mother raped?" The case worker quietly said yes. From that day forward Rebecca has been redefining her life purpose. Rebecca knows her mother tried to abort her three times, but during the late 60's abortion was illegal, so she didn't go through with it. Today Rebecca speaks out against abortion, especially in the case of rape.
The Elliot Institute's, Amy Sobie, joined Brad to dispel some misconceptions about rape and abortion. After a variety of research was conducted on post-abortive women who had also been raped, 93% of women regretted aborting their pregnancy conceived in rape. And, like Nicole, many agreed the abortion was like being raped a second time.
Show times:
http://www.facinglife.tv/showinfo.htm

reply from: micah

A presentation that would use the word "rape" with "consent" should not be taken seriously.

reply from: lukesmom

A presentation that would use the word "rape" with "consent" should not be taken seriously.
Too close minded to actually read a surviver's story for another POV? I thought that is supposibly why you proaborts come here.

reply from: Faramir

A presentation that would use the word "rape" with "consent" should not be taken seriously.
Maybe if you would read the article and see it in context it would make some sense, especially since the woman who wrote the article actually was raped.
Do you mind if I ask how old you are?
I can't help but think you are a teenager just messing around here and playing silly head games, not that you would be the only one doing that, of course. There are plenty of others doing the same thing, but who do not have being a teenager as an excuse.

reply from: micah

I actually am old enough to have kids. I'm surprised you would think I'm young. I'm one of the few people who on here who doesn't resort to name calling and can make a rational argument.

reply from: churchmouse

You are wrong, because I do believe their lives have the same worth.
You are not a Christian so this is hard for you to get.
I certainly would not have sympathy for the killer. But I certainly would not give up on him/her. God doesnt so why should I? Paul killed Christians. God chose him to write most the Bible.
He did not give up on him. The killer should pay the penalty for what he did. You dont have to hate someone to despise and the hate the actions committed.
My cousin was killed by a drunk driver. He took a life, he took away one of my family members. He paid by going to prison. That doesnt mean I hate him or would hope that somehow he would turn his life over to Christ.
You just dont get the kinda love we should show our neighbors, our enemies.
People should pay .......eternity for them could be heaven, even while serving a life sentence in jail.
Rosalie said, "Oh PLEASE. And I'm not being oversensitive, I just do not wish to accept her religion. It's not my fault she doesn't understand that."
Honey you dont have to accept it. I have said before, if you do not like what I say, put me on ignore. What dont YOU GET?
I do understand that you dont want to accept it. And guess what...........? YOU DO NOT HAVE TO.
I am curious however. You are a pro-abort, probably believe in infanticide, you are a pagan and reject God.........why are you here on this website debating and discussing this issue? LOL
What are your motives? Your true motives.......
Well I see you are defensive about it thats for sure. Would you care to tell us about your beliefs? If they are important to you.......then pray tell do share. make the case for your faith.
"Oh feel free to think that you are reaching out. You are not. You are only being pushy and I don't like that."
How on earth am I pushing Christ on you? LOL
But look where you are my dear? You are surrounded mainly by Christians that believe abortion is murder. You are in the minority. I am not the only one who shares their faith with people here.
You most certainly do not have to be a Christian to post here, but dont complain when Christians share their faith.
You seem to be very defensive and you lash out. I think anyone that tries to live without Christ lives in darkness. And usually when people live this way, what we classify sin is no issue to them.
You say one thing then you say the opposite.
You basically told me I didnt have the right, that I was pushy.
I thinklukesmom you said something so profound here......
You describes this better than I have ever heard it described. And I agree with you 500%. The pain of losing people can be different. I lost my beloved mother a few years back. But the pain of losing her with losing a child.......wouldnt even compare.....they are different. It has nothing to do with loving one more....or God loving them more....its just different.
Awesome just an awesome observation.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh yeah. Electively killing some innocent person is always the most compassionate, the kindest thing you can do for them. Why, it's like the ultimate act of love. </sarcasm>
oh yeah. it's totally awesome and cool. it's the only way to go if you've been raped, carole said. The rest of the faux lifers didn't want to come right out and say it, but they agreed with the ahhh.. verdict however demurely.
I tell ya, better the mangled corpse of your child in a bag than a new baby.
Saves her self importance-... ahhh.. esteem. Gives them a feeling of accomplishment.
Abortion is also important to the "working girl" on the street corner. Gotta make them bucks to buy another pair of spiky whore shoes don't ya know. Can't have a little brat or 3 getting in the way of the job now can we?
Just another cheap shot from the woman hating punk....

reply from: micah

"The pain of losing my baby was horrible but if my 16 yr old son was killed, just bury me next to him. I don't think I could live with that pain. That is not saying one life was more worthy or more expendable than the other."
Yeah it is. If somebody said she could sacrifice the fetus to save the 16 year old, you tell me she wouldn't take it?

reply from: carolemarie

what it is saying is that there is a relationship with the 16 year old that you don't have with the fetus.
You know the 16 year old. You do not know the unborn child.
I would pick my son over a fetus. No contest.

reply from: lukesmom

You are going back to the "world is flat" suppositions again. Anyway it is MY 16 yr old and no, I wouldn't sacrifice one child for another.

reply from: churchmouse

But we are talking about a life in the womb that is killing the woman carrying it.
Did you ever see Sophies Choice?
Some people were forced to make decisions such as this.
I hate even contemplating a question such as this, because it wont ever happen to me.
I am going through menopause.......LOL
And i praise God and thank Him for my hot flashes.

reply from: micah

Everyone would. Sure, some might feign some sort of prayer to discern "god's will", but that fetus would be toast.

reply from: lukesmom

Everyone would. Sure, some might feign some sort of prayer to discern "god's will", but that fetus would be toast.
I have already said, I would not pick one child over the other and I haven't seen anyone say anything about "feigning" prayer. You must be seriously tired.

reply from: yoda

I do, and she has already answered. We had a long debate about it, and she kept on saying "they are not exactly the same thing", and "it's not the same thing to kill the unborn and to kill the born". She never answered me when I asked if a newborn and a senior citizen were "exactly the same thing". But she made it clear that she sided with the proaborts on this question.
I know what you mean. I skip around some and don't always see every thread every day.

reply from: yoda

Except when you defend baby killing. You're never rational then.

reply from: yoda

Then you and carolemarie will just have to disagree on that one.

reply from: Rosalie

I do not put people on ignore just because I disagree with them. Did you even READ my post?
Well I know that. I was letting you know.
I'm not a pro-abort and I don't believe in infanticide.
Is lying okay with your God?
I am not a pagan and I reject YOUR God because I don't believe in him.
I've said before why I am here and I don't see what it has to do with religion.
I'll ask you again - WHY do you lie about me? Is lying all right with your God?
Not really. I was just trying to explain that to you - not that I actually thought even for a second that you would accept my explanation.
No. It's a private thing.
They are very important to me and this is the last website I would consider sharing my private beliefs on.
And? I don't care, dear.
I'm not defensive, I just want an explanation for your assinine comments on my lifestyle. So the fact that I don't accept YOUR religion is enough for you to pass judgment on and classify my lfiestyle?
Can you not read? You HAVE the right to Bible-thump just as I have the right to tell you that you are being pushy. I am not trying to take any of your rights away from you but telling you that you are pushy.

reply from: churchmouse

Do you have to put it that way? Toast?
I have never heard her say this. But if she did of course Yoda I would have to dissagree with her. I believe they are the same in Gods eyes and thats all that matters. The unborn has a soul...so to say that it does not have the same worth is unbiblical IMO.
I really don't agree with pro-aborts on anything.
Ok Rosalie....what do you believe? You say you are not a pro-abort don't believe in infanticide......how about in the case of rape? incest?
How about personhood.....does the baby in the womb deserve personhood? Is the baby in the womb the same worth as one out of the womb?
Oh but you do care. You told me I had no right to witness to people.
So you do not think you owe anyone an explanation, you make pot shots about Christian faith and our lame God.....but you want one from me? LOL
I can pass judgement on your lifestyle. Quite frankly I reject it and I have that right. And you have the right to judge mine which you do.

reply from: scopia19822

"I am not a pagan and I reject YOUR God because I don't believe in him. "
Youre not a paga, not an athiest, do you believe in any thing spiritual?

reply from: Rosalie

I' not pro-abort, I'm pro-choice. No buts. It is a woman's choice, always - regardless how I personally feel about it.
I of course don't believe in infanticide.
Fetuses deserve only such rights as the woman carrying them decides to grant them. SHE is the hosting organism, SHE is in charge, HER health, life, social situation and entire life in every aspect of this world will be affected so she has the choice to either continue the pregnancy or have an abortion.
Why are you lying? I said no such thing. I told you that you won't change my mind and that you are being pushy. Please stop lying.
No, I don't owe anyone an explanaiton. Why should I owe anyone an expanation?
You called my lifestyle evil based on one thing: that I don't buy into your religion.
What does me not sharing what I believe in has to do with me asking for your explanation? You make no sense.

reply from: scopia19822

"Yes."
Im surprised, however I dont expect that you would enlighten me or anyone else.

reply from: churchmouse

Do you think that a person could abort for a business.....and sell fetal body parts for money?
Are you pro legalization of all drugs and sex?
You are pro-death and certainly not pro-life.
Why are you on this site?
And you called us fanatics and bigots. Just who is being intolerant here my dear?
Bible thumping IMO is a slam. You presume to know what we all do for this cause. You who are pro-death, telling those that do care about the unborn baby, that we are not helping.
If our religion contradicts your faith......then I believe your faith in whatever, is in a dark light.
Our God says murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, adultry is wrong etc. And your views are opposite.......wow. Stay out of my neighborhood. LOL
Just why are you here. You reject God and Christianity, you are pro-aboriton.....whats your true motives and reason for being here?
You never answered the question.

reply from: yoda

And you may of course ask her yourself, since she has not chosen to comment on this thread.
How do you suppose someone could be prolife and still not think that the unborn are "the same as" the born?

reply from: Rosalie

I really have no desire to do that. Everything I ever shared here was sooner or later used to attack me. So I don't know why I should want to share.

reply from: Rosalie

There would be same or similar legal issues as with people harvesting and selling body parts so no.
I have no issues with the legalization of marijuana, for example. And sex? What are you talking about? Sex IS legal. I support any kind of consensual sex. I don't care how many people at once in succession you have sex with or what gender they are, as long as all parties gave their consent (and of course were legally capable of giving consent).
I never claimed to be alive (oh God no, never!) and I am certainly not pro-death.
I have answered this question about 50 times. IT's your fault you can't keep up. I don't know why I should repeat it to every single person here.
How am I being intolerant by rejecting your beliefs, dear? ALL I AM SAYING is that you won't force your beliefs on me no matter how hard you try. That' not intolerance. Do you even understand what that word means?
I don't care what your beliefs about my faith are.
Your god is absolutely irrelevant to me.
I have, many times. And I'm tired of repeating myself to every single person who was not paying attention before.

reply from: lukesmom

You are proabortion, that makes you a pro-abort. You are anti-choice for the unborn. And yes, you are a butt, when you are here. Can't say what you are anywhere else but willing to bet not much different.

reply from: nancyu

Everyone would. Sure, some might feign some sort of prayer to discern "god's will", but that fetus would be toast.
And suppose your son was the fetus; would you choose someone else's born child over your "fetus?"

reply from: Rosalie

You are proabortion, that makes you a pro-abort. You are anti-choice for the unborn. And yes, you are a butt, when you are here. Can't say what you are anywhere else but willing to bet not much different.
I support abortoin as an equal choice to continuing a pregnancy.
That means I'm pro-choice.
But I'm not surprised someone like you doesn't understand that. After all, everything you seem to have in your head is insults.

reply from: yoda

Prediction: that question will go forever unanswered.

reply from: churchmouse

All I know is that you are intolerant.
You are here to mock and thats it.
It always amazes me that the pro-abort crowd always thinks selling fetal body parts would be unethical.....they think abortion is a decision only a woman can make because its her body so she should have the right to kill......but they think making money off of the body parts is bad. LOL They all of a sudden get a conscience about it.
IS THERE ANYTHING WRONG WITH ABORTION ROSALIE?
Its her body why shouldnt she profit. Make a business out of it.
What about the legalization of all drugs? Why not cocaine and crack.......its your own body who should tell you that you cant do drugs.
And sex as in prostitution is not legal.
Shouldnt someone if they can legally kill also be able to do drugs and have sex without fear of punishment?

reply from: lukesmom

But you don't have a problem with forcing your killing belifs on unborn humans, do you?

reply from: CharlesD

When I saw the title of this thread, my first thought was, "No rape victims have ever been aborted. If they were aborted, they wouldn't have been alive to have been raped."
Ok, grammar nazi is going to crawl back under his rock now. You may resume your regularly scheduled program.

reply from: yoda

Prediction: that question will go forever unanswered.

reply from: churchmouse

And your reply Rosalie is????????????

reply from: micah

If you read the Bible, you'll find out Yahweh kills more people than anyone in either fiction or real life.
If you study history, you'll find out that more people have been murdered in the name of God than for any other reason.

reply from: nancyu

Prediction: that question will go forever unanswered.
Your prediction holds true so far...

reply from: micah

So let me clarify this situation that you are asking. I've just gotten pregnant, and your 12 year old son is about to die in a car crash. And God magically comes down and says I can prevent the death if I get an abortion? Of course I would save your son. In fact, I presume you would probably come after me if I didn't. I'd come after you.

reply from: nancyu

So let me clarify this situation that you are asking. I've just gotten pregnant, and your 12 year old son is about to die in a car crash. And God magically comes down and says I can prevent the death if I get an abortion? Of course I would save your son. In fact, I presume you would probably come after me if I didn't. I'd come after you.
You've got serious problems. If anyone is an extremist "wacko" you are it.
I wouldn't sacrifice my child for yours, and I wouldn't expect you to sacrifice yours for mine.

reply from: micah

So you wouldn't feel injustice if I traded one of your kid's lives for a few cells in a petri dish? Do your kids know this?

reply from: yoda

No mortal being has the moral right to "trade lives". NONE.

reply from: lukesmom

So let me clarify this situation that you are asking. I've just gotten pregnant, and your 12 year old son is about to die in a car crash. And God magically comes down and says I can prevent the death if I get an abortion? Of course I would save your son. In fact, I presume you would probably come after me if I didn't. I'd come after you.
It is very telling that your arguement has been reduced to such nonsense. Could you PLEASE debate somewhere in the relm of reality?

reply from: Banned Member

No no! You see what they desire is to use one obscure example which stastically could very nearly never happen, to justify 1.5 million abortions which could otherwise be prevented with an ounce of common sense.

reply from: 4given

How old are you Micah?

reply from: 4given

I think Micah may just like the attention she gets from posting what she thinks is outrageous.

reply from: micah

nancyu asked me "if I would you choose someone else's born child over your "fetus?"". It's an imaginary situation, but you all seemed like it was a good question for her to ask.

reply from: nancyu

At least you made an attempt at an answer micah. More than I can say for the $$prolifers$$

reply from: nancyu

How could I have missed this!

reply from: nancyu

When I donated blood, I got cheezits and applejuice.

reply from: yoda

How could I have missed this!
You must have changed your mind..... that's how you miss the tea and chocolates, too.

reply from: nancyu

How could I have missed this!
You must have changed your mind..... that's how you miss the tea and chocolates, too.
Maybe if I'd given just a little more blood...

reply from: yoda

As long as it's baby's blood, you qualify.....

reply from: nancyu

Ohhhh, so the blood type makes all the difference...

reply from: Rosalie

Churchmouse, maybe you have troubles noticing that there are people on this board who actually have lives outside of this board. It's not your recent issues, you have been this obnoxious before and I tried to explain it to you - but clearly once was not enough for you.
I know that when you see individuals like Augustine, CLott, Faithman and some others it is glaringly obvious that they, in fact, do not have anything in life going on so maybe they actually do log in 10 times a day just to check out if they can insult someone again (and find excuses to do so anyway even if no one is at hand at the moment).
I have a family, I have a job, I have friends, I have hobbies. I will reply to you when I actually get back here for long enough to read your reply and type up my answer.
And this is the last time I am attempting to explain to you that, unlike you, people around you actually have a different list of priorities than responding to someone's post on the internet.
Is this enough for you or do you need me to copy&paste this here a couple more times so you would actually understand it?

reply from: Rosalie

All I know is that you are a fanatic!
See? It works both ways.
If YOU say it then it MUST be true, right?
Probably because the scenarios are uncomparable.
No, there's nothing wrong with abortion, as long as the woman is not force into having one.
I wasn't aware we can freely sell like our hands or legs.
I'm not necessarily opposed to that. Selling them is different, though. And there are grey areas, just like with nearly everything in life.
And it, again, has nothing to do with abortion.
You said sex. You did not say prostitution. So which is it?
But you don't have a problem with forcing your killing belifs on unborn humans, do you?
Nope. The fetus is attached to MY body for survival and therefore it will follow my rules. Period.
Now THAT is horrible. Suffering of the born kids doesn't matter to them at all. A heartbeat of a fetus has more weight for them than actual suffering and pain of born kids. That's twisted. And that's the spirit of the "pro-life" movement. Disgusting.

reply from: sk1bianca

you know many parents actually say to their BORN kids stuff like "as long as you live off my money and in my house you have to follow my rules. i made you and i'll kill you if you don't".

reply from: Rosalie

What does this have to do with anything? I think it's quite reasonable to say that as long as kids who live with their parents follow the rules of their parents' household. As long as they pay no rent etc., it's reasonable. WHy you see this as a bad thing is beyond me.
The other part of your post is of course an extremist propaganda. It's not helping your cause at all and I have no idea why you'd think it would.
Thing is, women are not houses. Women are living human beings with feelings, beings capable of consent, of feeling pain, of having rights. You cannot harm a house. But you can harm women. Houses do not have rights. Women do.
If you feel like a house, that's your problem and you should definitely do something about it.

reply from: sk1bianca

i find it a bad thing because it gives the impression that children are property.
(and the other part of my post is not extremist propaganda, is something my dad made sure to remind me and my brothers for years. i didn't made it up. it happens)

reply from: churchmouse

Rosalie let me tell ya this......do not say one thing about Faithmans activities in the pro-life area. You have no idea all he does in this fight. He has a life and he balances this life with his work. In fact last fall he dissapeared for over a month and was not around here at all. He was off doing pro-life work.
You are one ignorant woman.

They are not different at all and you will use any excuse to avoid a discussion when you cant defend your position.
For you there is nothing immoral about abortion, you are pro-choice. So whatever the doctor does, is fine, dismember alive, burn, scrape etc.
For you the unborn belongs to the woman that is why you feel she has the right to kill, ITS HER BODY.
So it only makes sense that if its HER BODY, that she should be able to do whatever she wants with the NOTHING she killed. And that includes selling it for profit. In fact if there is nothing wrong with abortion, its legal and moral in your sick eyes, then why cant she do it to make money?
Or Rosalie is there something wrong with abortion?
If a body belongs to that person.......why cant they do anything they want with it?
YOU SAID
Why should selling them be different? And what is the grey area in abortion? You said there was nothing wrong with it.
Yes it is attached but not a part of you. It is its own person. Louise Brown the world first test tube baby was not conceived in the womb. She was concieved in a Petri dish and put into her mother. She was not part of her mother. She was a distinct and separate human being.
Then you are also pro-abortion say nine months? You are for partial birth abortion......abortion on demand no matter what month. Am I right? Of course I am.
No women are not houses but they can have babies. They have feelings and emotions and free will concerning their actions. They can feel pain and they can inflict pain.
They are capable of concent, especially when they consented to have sex and take the chance at starting a life. This is a huge responsiblity. Most people with the advances in technology today, ultrasound etc... know that life starts at conception, that the life in the womb is human. Its a life.
And if the woman consents....and gets pregnant, its her responsiblity, it was her body. She can decide to allow her already created child life or decide to kill it.
People like you dont think killing is bad.

reply from: Rosalie

It's not about children being property. It's about you having complete rights over your body, whether you are pregnant or not.
And I know that extremism happens. I don't support that.

reply from: sk1bianca

so a woman should be allowed to have her child killed just because he is temporarily living inside her body? doesn't that mean that he is devalued (conisdered not worthy of life) based on his location?
should she be allowed to kill him if he was developing in some sort of science-fiction artificial womb?

reply from: Rosalie

Churchmouse, let me tell ya, I will keep saying things I want to say whether you like it or not. I have an idea of what FMan does to "help" the pro-life movement and every sane person I know laughs at fanatics like him.
I don't care that you don't like what I have to say. I will not be quiet just because YOU would like me to.
Not to mention I said that it is YOU who cannot grasp the concept of people not replying right away to your posts because they have life. Or did you miss that post? Should I quote it for you again, just to be sure?
They are incomparable because there's never quite the same situation as pregnancy.
Yeah, or the woman swallows a pill and her body expulses the fetus during what is like a heavy period.
It's her body, her health, her life. She has the say so. Always.
I never said it was NOTHING. The aborted "nothing" as you call it is usually embryo/fetus.
Are you really that stupid? Oh wait, I think you are. Can you just go and offer ANY part of your body for sale? You can't, it's illegal. So why should it become legal when the fetuses are concerned?
You can probably sell your kidney on a black market but it's not legal. Therefore your wanna-be point is moot.
I never said that, you did.
If it's SEPARATE then it should be able to live SEPARATELY from any other human organism supporting it physically. Can embryos and fetuses do that? They can't, not for the most of the pregnancy.
Suuuure, because all the women wait until they are 2 days before their due date, then change their minds because they suddenly realize that they won't look good in their bikini and have the fetus killed when it's halfway out of them. Right, that's what routinely happens.
Ah, asinine "pro-life" arguments. Always the same garbage.
No *****.
Consent to sex is consent to sex. It's not consent to pregnancy.
I'm so glad that you know exactly what I think without actually asking me! Your superpowers are astounding.

reply from: yoda

Right. So if Rosalie decided that any baby living inside her house is her property, she would also think that she had the moral right to kill it as well, even if it was someone else's baby.

reply from: nancyu

No one has the right to kill an innocent human being. Ever.

reply from: scopia19822

"Nope. The fetus is attached to MY body for survival and therefore it will follow my rules. Period."
You sound just like my mother when I was living with her as a teenager. She made it very clear that she never wanted me , would have had no qualms about aborting me and that I should kiss her feet because she "allowed" me to be born and that my existance was purely at her mercy. I despise my mother and those like her. I have no love for the woman that birthed me. If one were to meet my mom and me they wouldnt believe that we were mother and daughter. Not only is there almost no physical resemblence as I look more like my dad, we are different as night and day. Shes been married/divorced 3 times, only cares about herself, very proabortion and has only a nominal belief in God. The woman is a good conartist and her moral compass is almost non exisitant. I on the other hand am very selfless, very prolife life, has a strong belief in God and believe that marriage is for life. Shes liberal, Im conservative....

reply from: Rosalie

Right. So if Rosalie decided that any baby living inside her house is her property, she would also think that she had the moral right to kill it as well, even if it was someone else's baby.
Another "pro-life" lie. I don't think anyone's surprised by pro-lifers lying anymore, though.
I hate to break the news to you but not everything is about you.
I don't care if you despise me. I despise people who promote abuse of women. Pro-lifers do that in the most disgusting manner. You do NOT understand my position nor have you ever made any attempt to understand it.

reply from: scopia19822

"I hate to break the news to you but not everything is about you."
No its not nor is all about you or your wants/desires the universe doesnt work that way. I brought my mother and my experinces into the equation to convey WHY I hold the views I do. Hence to help one understand me and what has shaped my opinions and worldviews.
"I don't care if you despise me. I despise people who promote abuse of women. Pro-lifers do that in the most disgusting manner. You do NOT understand my position nor have you ever made any attempt to understand it."
I have tried to understand it many times, however your proabort self centered worldview doesnt compute with my philosphy. And how to I promote the abuse of women? Do I advocate that a woman should be a mans punching bag? That if hubby wants sex and she doesnt that he still has a right to take it anyway?

reply from: churchmouse

And I will keep telling it like it is as well. The people you know and would associate with would have no idea what morality is.
I find you a sad and pathetic person and I pray for your soul.
I would no more want to silence you than fly to the moon. We need to see the enemy in the open and you do that well....so keep talkin.
The two scenarios I gave are exactly the same and you know it. If the woman has the right to kill because the unborn is in her body AND SHE OWNS IT.......then she should be able to sell it for profit. Kill and sell, kill and sell. You said.........there is nothing wrong with abortion. So your answer would have to be a big fat YES.
That is an easy way to kill it early on.........I'm talking about five months.....nine months.
Sure ya did. There is nothing wrong with abortion so therefore killing it is nothing.
The fact is.......you believe that killing a living human being from the time of conception to the time of the natural delivery is ok.....nothing wrong with it.
LMAO......You a pro-abort have the gall to call me stupid. LMAO
Quit trying to change the subject. The subject is selling pieces of the unborn after an abortion. You said that which is in the womb belongs to the woman because its inside her body, therefore she is entitled to kill it.
So now you want to pretend you have some sort of conscience by saying that selling the remains is wrong? LMAO
The fetus is hers, in her body.......she owns it. ARe you saying she has no rights to the remains after she killed it?
That is not the point. You said that there is nothing wrong with abortion Rosalie. Quit running and answer the question.
Is it morally right for a woman to abort a baby in the ninth month just because she doesnt want it then even though she waited nine months to make up her mind?
YES OR NO.
Does someone with AIDS have the moral responsiblity to tell their sexual partner they have it? I mean they are only having sex right? And if they use protection they might not get it.
But we all know that AIDS could happen.......pregnancy could happen. THE GUY DOES HAVE THE SPERM. Or didnt you know that?
NEWS FLASH...........when the penis enters the vagina.......sperm could be deposited, even before ejaculation... there is ALWAYS THAT CHANCE.
God bless you scopia. I am so sorry you had to be subjected to that abuse. It was horrendous and I believe that your mother will pay. Hard as it might seem she could even be forgiven by God if she repents. You have a right to be bitter and angry......but you still need to pray on the scripture about this very thing. You need to forgive her even though you might never see her again. Bitterness and unforgiveness is ungodly. Christ forgave us and we must forgive those that sin against us. Unforgiveness seprates us from God.
I know this from experience that unforgiveness is like a cancer that slowly eats away at you. It grows and grows and grows. It usually doesn't hurt your offender, only you.
The Apostle Paul wrote,"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you" (Ephesians 4:32).

reply from: scopia19822

"God bless you scopia. I am so sorry you had to be subjected to that abuse. It was horrendous and I believe that your mother will pay. Hard as it might seem she could even be forgiven by God if she repents. You have a right to be bitter and angry......but you still need to pray on the scripture about this very thing. You need to forgive her even though you might never see her again. Bitterness and unforgiveness is ungodly. Christ forgave us and we must forgive those that sin against us. Unforgiveness seprates us from God."
Thank you Churchmouse. I will "honor" my mother the best ways I can. However how does one honor someone who has no honor? If she gets sick I will take care of her before I will see her in a nursing home. I would give her a kidney or even my own bone marrow even though she failed to the same thing for her own sister even when she was a match. Its about duty and loyalty to family and just plain whats right. I am sure Im not the only child of the post RvW generation that has been told the proabort rhetoric that our existance was at the parents pleasure. Im not angry at her coke use prior to finding out she was pregnant with me, but I am angry at the fact that she choose to continue after the fact.

reply from: churchmouse

It does not matter how your mother feels or treats you. Its your attitude towards God and what He commands you to do that is important. It doesnt matter how we make sense of things....we must do as He asks.
When you think about Christs forgivenss for our sins.....its mindboggling. How could He forgive us? But He does so we must do the same for others. How can you expect Christ to forgive you and you hold bitterness and hostility towards others. You must pray for your mother that one day her eyes will be opened to the TRUTH.
What is important is your heart.
Have you ever heard or read about Stormie Omartian?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormie_Omartian

http://www.stormieomartian.com/home.cfm

Here is her story.
http://www.stormieomartian.com/story.cfm

She lived most her childhood locked in a closet......she had three abortions.......delved into witchcraft, drugs and alcohol.
She forgave her mother. Her story is awesome. Read her book Lord I Want To Be Whole.....it will change your life and give you hope.
You have a right to be angy......give it to God.
God Bless You

reply from: scopia19822

"You must pray for your mother that one day her eyes will be opened to the TRUTH. "
I already do on a daily basis. I have talked to her about her ways. She was "saved" as a child therefore believes that any future sins she may have committed are covered and therefore doesnt need to repent and doenst believe she will be held accountable for them on the day of Judgement.

reply from: Rosalie

Well, you are right in essence but the thing is that I've never said or implied that.
Except there was no point of it, other than insult me from having views different from yours.
Forcing women to remain pregnant and give birth against their will is abuse. It's THAT simple.
I would hope that you do not support either of these things.

reply from: Rosalie

And you know this because ... oh yeah, because they all dare have an opinion that is different from yours. Oh, how can they even exist like that, right?
You're a funny little fanatic.
Your 'prayers' are being laughed at but by all means, continue to pray to your nonexistent god. You are certainly free to do so.
Either you are stupid or .... oh wait, there's no other explanation, you MUST be stupid.
First of all, YOU keep saying that fetus is a part of the woman's body, like her hand, for example ... I never said that. You did. Second of all - we can NOT sell our body parts. Or at least that's what I always thought but maybe there has been some development and we can now put our arms and legs and brains on eBay and have the highest bidder have them ... oh wait, no we can't.
Failure on all parts, churchmouse.
When I see all these pregnant women who are on the verge of giving birth deciding that they suddenly do not want to have a kid because they want to go on vacation so they have it aborted right before it passes through their birth canal.
They are mythical creatures thought up by people like you. I have actually TALKED to a doctor about these cases - and she told me the truth. So your lies have no effect on me. Go find someone stupid or gullible to lie to.
That's only an assumption a lunatic can make. When you get mentally healthy again, maybe I'll think about debating with you. So far you have not made one reasonable argument.
Oooh, if you say so.
I stand by that. There's nothing wrong with abortion. Your lies won't change my opinion, by the way.
When I see such women, I will start treating this question as a valid one.
This is nothing but another 'pro-life' display of misogyny for the most part.
Non-sequitur.
Sure there is a chance. But a chance of it happening doesn't mean I'm consenting to 40 weeks of pregnancy and childbirth.

reply from: churchmouse

Rosalie prove there is no God.
Show me some sort of proof. You do have proof don't you?
Convince me there is no God.
News flash Rosalie.....I did not say the unborn child is a part of the woman. That is what the pro-abort crowd says. The unborn is NOT A PART OF THE WOMAN. I gave the example of Louise Brown the worlds first test tube baby. So dont attribute that to me.

Did cocktail hour start early at your house Rosalie? LOL
Just answer this. Do you think.......IN YOUR OPINION........that any woman should be able to kill the unborn in her womb at any time during the pregnancy. Forget what anyone else says.......WHAT DO YOU THINK? Yes or No
You say everyone is putting words in your mouth......clear it up now.......
yes or no
You give this lame statement.....
.....does not fly. Answer with a yes or no because it is a valid question.
Why are you running? Aren't you confident that the answer you give to a question is right? Or do you feel that if you honestly answer that you will look inhumane, so you avoid answering altogether.
Yes there is a chance. The chance is there. The chance never goes away unless she has had a hysterectomy, or he is sterile.
You have to consider the chance when you have sex. Because this is one chance that could affect another human being.

reply from: Rosalie

Why should I do that? YOU are the one claiming there is god so the burden of proof is on you.
If you have even heard about anything like that.
I don't know why you get so worked up about people not believing the stuff you do. You know that we have the freedom of religion here in the USA, don't you?
I will attribute this to you because I have never said that fetus = an arm, you just assumed, and that was it. So yes, I will attribute it to you because that's not what I said and therefore it's not what I'm arguing, it's what YOU want me to argue.
I wish.
And I said I will answer when I see all the women who abort mid-birth.
And quite frankly, if there are those who would do so, then they're definitely better off not being parents at all.
I consider the chance, I prevent it if I don't want to get pregnant and by considering the chance I still do not give my consent to continue an accidental pregnancy automatically.

reply from: scopia19822

"I would hope that you do not support either of these things"
Well guess what I dont and I have said so many times. Marital rape IMHO is only a degree less henious than child molestation. Because it violated the very trust and sacredness of the marital bond and a man who rapes his wife has broken his marriage vows to love honor and protect her.Im disgusted at my state law on marital rape its not considered a sex crime, its considered misdemenor assault, that sickens me and I have called and wrote my state legislatures on the matter.

reply from: churchmouse

You are making a truth claim. You say there is no God. Show the proof behind your faith.
I have already attempted to show you the evidence for God. Now its your turn.
Rosalie......there are women in this country that get third term abortions. So if you say it does not happen then you are very naive.
I am asking you about your position and you are running. Why? I think we all know why.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN LATE TERM ABORTIONS. DOES A WOMAN HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL HER UNBORN UP UNTIL THE TIME OF NATURAL DELIVERY?
Just a simple yes or no will do.
"United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted from 13 to 15 weeks, 4.2% from 16 to 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[13] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there is no exact data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[13] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion
That is why on all birth control they do not say 100% effective.
If you have sex and take the risk then the responsiblity is yours. You have to own it, you allowed it to happen.

reply from: churchmouse

Are you researching Rosalie?
You made the claim....whatcha got

reply from: micah

If I claim Vishnu exists, the burden is not on you to prove he doesn't exist.

reply from: lukesmom

And there you have it. People like Rosalie will not admit or accept the responsibility of their own actions. Instead they kill innocent and hide behind "the law".

reply from: yoda

It is if I claim he does not exist. In that case, both have an equal burden of proof. Atheists are all fools, IMO.

reply from: micah

It is if I claim he does not exist. In that case, both have an equal burden of proof. Atheists are all fools, IMO.
Right. So what's your proof that Vishnu does not exist?

reply from: yoda

I never said that, did I?

reply from: scopia19822

And there you have it. People like Rosalie will not admit or accept the responsibility of their own actions. Instead they kill innocent and hide behind "the law".
Cowards will "hide behind the law" Sue. Rather than accept resposibilty they will take the "easy way" out. I knew that when I had sex even with protection I could still become pregnant. I took the risk anyway and had sex. Both man and woman make their choice to prospective parenthood when they choose to lay down .

reply from: ChristianLott2

If you murder someone because they 'got in the way', you can construe that as acting responsibly, sure.
For people who know murder is wrong though - acting responsibly does not entail 'getting rid of someone'.

reply from: scopia19822

"How is having an abortion not accepting responsibility? You don't have to like it or approve or choose it, but it is one way of being personally responsible for the act of becoming pregnant. Why is it that only YOU (collectively) get to decide for OTHERS what is responsible?"
Your killing a child, that is why its irresponisble and just plain wrong. Being responsible isnt taking the easy way out, it means a woman carries her child to term and then either parents the child or places the child for adoption.

reply from: ChristianLott2

So what are you killing in an abortion exactly? If it's not a living human what could it be?
A dead dog, huh?
You are deluding yourself.

reply from: scopia19822

"And that is solely your personal opinion of how to be responsible. That doesn't mean anyone else has to abide by your perception."
What is your preception of being responsible? Abortion, taking the easy way out ?

reply from: faithman

What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: churchmouse

No, she makes a similar truth claim. She says THERE IS NO GOD. She is stating fact according to what she believes. I want to know how she figured out there was no God.
Rosalie says my views about God are only true for me, because she says God DOES NOT EXIST. Why then isn't Rosalie's view just true for her? Sorry but if truth is truth, it must exclude something-falsehood.
If you correct me, you assume error exists. Rosalie is correcting me by saying God does not exist that I am a fool for thinking so. And if you assume error exists, you assume that truth exists. There are absolutes.
There is a God or there isnt a God.
From all appearences Rosalie is an moral relativist. She maintains in her posts that there are no moral absolutes, no objective right and wrong. I hold to a God belief so I believe there are absolutes. We both base our faiths on the evidence as we see it.
Can two people with contradictory ethical views both be correct? They can't.
In order to make the claim that there is no God, requires a certain level of faith. Even if that faith is in the fact that something doesn't exist.
Ultimately, Rosalies faith is a philosophy that denies all major claims of all varieties of theism. Her argument asserts that Gods existense is rationally unprovable and is therefore at best a meaningless proposition. Her athiestic views are arrived at by default. She take this approach because it conveniently relieves the burden of defending her own position.
Actually it is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. And to have infinite knowledge you would have to be god yourself. And wouldn't it be hard to be both god and yourself at the same time? Atheism is not a valid philosophy. No finite human being can prove God does not exist because God may very well exist beyond ones comprehension or their experience. The universe is huge, gigantic and the information that is contained in it can not be measured...any scientist can tell you that.
Anyone claiming to be an atheist implies there is sufficient evidence to prove God doesn't exist. That is what Rosalie is saying. If someone rejects theism due to insufficient evidence, they imply there is sufficient evidence to accept atheism. Otherwise their conclusion would be irrational.
Why shouldnt she answer? Why shouldnt anyone answer that claims there is no God?

reply from: micah

No one should ever say, "I know for certain there is no god". We cannot know for certain that there is no Zeus. We merely state that the probably of Zeus existing is very small.

reply from: micah

I can doubt Vishnu's existence without proof. That what can be asserted with evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I never said that, did I?

reply from: yoda

So? Why are you arguing with me?


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