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How we use words

Meanings matter

by: CharlesD

A lot of words are used around here and it might be good if we are careful about the words we use and what they actually mean.
1. Life. This is probably the most important word we use and at times one of the most misunderstood. It's really pretty simple though. A being that is alive has life. A human being is either alive or dead. Biologically, there is no middle ground. There is no point during the development of a human where that human is not dead but also not alive. Therefore, it has life. It is not a potential life, meaning something that will be alive at some point in the future. After conception, you have a human life. It doesn't matter how that life ceases to exist, whether through a miscarriage or an abortion, the fact remains that it is a human life, not something that is a potential human life.
2. Pro life. This is also a misunderstood term, by people on both sides. If you are pro life, it means that you are against the taking of innocent human life. A pro life person is simply against killing innocent human beings. The key word there is innocent. Being pro life does not mean that one must also be opposed to capital punishment or eating meat. It's fine if you hold those positions, but they are not essential to being called pro life.
3. Need for abortion. No such thing. I hear people say that we must reduce the need for abortion, but in reality what this means is that we need to reduce the desire for abortion. Nearly 98% of abortions are done for purely elective reasons. There is no need for those abortions to be done. It is purely a matter of choice in that case, which brings us to the next term in our list.
4. Pro choice. Such a nice sounding euphemism, isn't it? While many people who use that label don't like to hear it, it really does mean pro abortion, even if it is not a choice you would make yourself. If you support someone else being able to make that choice, then you are in support of the act that person is choosing. If you want to use that term, fine, but don't get upset if someone else uses the term pro abortion. Pro choice people are supporting the choice of abortion, so what's the difference? If you support a choice that you don't participate in yourself, but you still support other people making that choice, then you are in support of that action.
5. Person. See the definition in my signature. Enough said. A human being is a person
6. Zygote, embryo, fetus. Three terms here. Those three terms are nothing but scientific terms describing the stages of development that people go through prior to birth. A fetus doesn't become a person; it is a person. You were an embryo at one point. That was a stage you went through.
Now that we have covered what these terms mean, no we can get on to the real crux of this issue. Is it right or not to take the lives of innocent human beings?

reply from: Banned Member

Life -I have taken to referring to life, as it pertains to abortion and being pro-life, always as "human life". There are some radicals out there, pro-abortion activists, who are also radical pro-animal rights activists, who take pro-life to mean all life, not just human life. An animal is not a person. A person may be a kind of living creature, like an animal, but an animal is never a person.
Life -A conceived human life is always a person. All human lives are persons. Human life, human person, and human being- are all one and the same and interchangable. There can be no distinction between the human life conceived in the womb and any other human life of any age or state of development outside of the womb. Abortion simply denotes the type of human killing that has occurred. And, we must understand that the taking of any innocent human life is murder. Is abortion a different type of murder? Only again in that abortion denotes the method of killing that has taken place.
Diversion into minutia is a major pro-abortion tactic. Don't ever allow allow yourself to get sucked in these circular arguments on the meanings of words. I am guilty of getting sucked in too much myself. Simply remember; human life begins and conception and that the taking of innocent human life in the womb, or out of the womb, is killing and murder. Remember the true meanings of words and remain steadfast!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yes, I have found myself correcting my own posts. There is a perceived need for abortion.

reply from: socratease

If this is a thread about the meaning of words, then shouldn't we be careful about using the word "murder"?
Murder is unlawful, and murder implies an intent to kill, usually maliciously.
I think it would be better to call the death of the fetus an "unjust death," since we don't necessarily know the intentions or what knowledge the aborter possesses.
I think it is grossly unfair to call anyone who has had an abortion a "murderer," since what was done could have been done in ingornace or under duress.

reply from: Banned Member

I would concede anything from first degree murder to negligent homocide, but I will not back off from the position that abortion is murder by virtue of it being the taking of an innocent life.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
· 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.) (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 7.9% of women want no (more) children. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
· 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health. (Understands that abortion kills a baby)
I want to know the percentage of women who had an abortion that did not know that pregnancy results in a baby!

reply from: SRUW4I5

You might want to reword the part in bold.... "Results in a baby" can make someone think "It's not a baby yet" (which would make it seem like you're confirming a Pro-Choice view). I'm not trying to be mean, so I'm sorry if you take that as being mean.

reply from: yoda

Good points, all.
I'm always amazed when proaborts challenge my use of dictionary quotes, and then proceed to try to tell us what words "really mean".
Reminds me of the old "brass on your face" expression.

reply from: socratease

How do you know that all of them understand that abortion kills a baby?

reply from: socratease

He's done some equivocating.
First he said "understands they are killing a baby" and then he incorrectly equates that with "knowing that a pregnancy results in a baby."
Everyone knows and believes the latter, but not all believe or understand the former, and I don't know how he can assert that. He certainly has not backed up his asserstion with anything more than his own opinion.

reply from: Banned Member

...results in a live born baby!
If you don't think that you are carrying a baby, and that abortion kills the baby that you don't want, what does a woman think that abortion does?
I can hardly be accused of equivocating. Abortion is murder. When you kill an innocent human being, you call it murder!

reply from: socratease

I agree that abortion is an injustice. It results in the unjust death of a human person.
But just because I believe and know that, it does not mean that a 14 year old girl who is pregnant, scared and ignorant knows that.
Many have been brainwashed and deceived to think that an early abortion removes a "non sentient mass."
What they believe does not change what it is, but what they believe does affect their culpability, as does outward pressures of economics and fear of repercussion from family or boyfriend.
I think many women believe that an abortion ends a pregnancy, and that many of them believe their early abortions do not destroy a person.
But you are incorrect in your use of the word "murder."
There are many ways an innocent person can be killed by another person without it being murder. And there are laws that permit abortion, and since murder is a legal term, it's inappropriate, since a legal act cannot be murder.
Bombs have inadvertently killed children in Iraq and I do not call it murder. A man walking down the street is run over and killed by a man distracted by his cell phone and I do not call it murder. A scared teenager was talked into an abortion by her boyfriend and family, and believed her abortion removed a "mass of cells" that were not yet a baby did not commit murder, and I do not call what she did murder.
Your "equivocation" had to do with the "logic" you used in your post with your statistics.
Everyone knows a pregnancy results in a baby, but that does not mean that everyone therefore believes there is a baby before birth. That is where your logic failed and that you equivocated.

reply from: yoda

No, that is where you place your opinion.
IMO, every woman/girl in the whole world who is old enough to become pregnant knows the "facts of life", and knows that a baby is what a pregnant woman has inside her.
The fact that many go into a state of denial does not change that.

reply from: carolemarie

It isn't really like that. Most girl are thinking that abortion is "restarting their period" or going back to the way things were. They don't think of it as killing a baby.
In the minds of most it isn't a baby yet.

reply from: yoda

That's self-deception and denial. That's not an honest opinion on their part.

reply from: socratease

That's self-deception and denial. That's not an honest opinion on their part.
You might very well be right, but do you have anything to back up this assertion?
Are you postive that no woman who has ever aborted did not honestly think she was not killing a baby?

reply from: socratease

No, that is where you place your opinion.
IMO, every woman/girl in the whole world who is old enough to become pregnant knows the "facts of life", and knows that a baby is what a pregnant woman has inside her.
The fact that many go into a state of denial does not change that.
So every woman who has aborted because she believed the lie that it's a "blob of stuff" really knew it was a baby?
I have heard of many cases where such women did not believe or understand this until years later.

reply from: carolemarie

I know a woman who had 7 abortions. 4 cities, 2 states and nobody ever told her it was a baby.

reply from: Banned Member

What did she think "pregnant" meant? What did she think that an "abortion" was?

reply from: 4given

What I have read in regard to the many women that have aborted, is that the abortion industry has been dishonest about the age, stage of development of the baby and facts about the risks involved to the woman. Some clinic staff is on record as saying that they routinely deceive women about how far along they are. I will bump some of the information I gathered or search for it again. Initially I thought it was absurd that anyone would try to pass of their abortion as a "non-sentient clump of cells." as opposed to a baby. I was surprised at how the industry denies these women the facts. So even though I believe that women who abort often want to think of their baby as tissue, there may well be cases where the girls or women who abort don't believe it is yet a baby. Either they choose to believe the lies to lessen the guilt or are so incredibly misinformed.. (young and trusting or mentally deficient)

reply from: lukesmom

I refer to abortion as legalized murder. Problem with that phrase?

reply from: lukesmom

No, that is where you place your opinion.
IMO, every woman/girl in the whole world who is old enough to become pregnant knows the "facts of life", and knows that a baby is what a pregnant woman has inside her.
The fact that many go into a state of denial does not change that.
Heck, even a toddler with limited words will point at a pregnant woman's stomach and say "baby". Makes you wonder how they are smarter than choicers...

reply from: 4given

Right. In fact my 2 y.o. that has only been around one pregnant woman briefly, stated to me that "Aww, there's a baby somewhere in there." Too bad it was in reference to an older woman (who, if younger may have had triplets "somewhere in there").. But he gets it. When he first held the IAAP poster, he kept pointing to "baby". He even kissed it.

reply from: micah

You have affirmed two contradicting statements. You just admitted in your post that 2% of abortions are not done for purely elective reasons.
Let's suppose that I'm willing to walk by a starving child and do nothing to help him, and that child dies. Can I still be pro-life? And what if I'm against universal health care for children and as a result a child dies of a horrible disease. Can I still be pro-life?
Then is God pro-abortion?
Yes that is true. I was also a sperm at one point.

reply from: faithman

What did she think "pregnant" meant? What did she think that an "abortion" was?
Your first mistake is that you assumed they think.

reply from: yoda

It's not intelligence, it's honesty.

reply from: yoda

You are an idiot at this point.
A sperm merely carries half the DNA information needed to form a new human being. It is NOT a human being.

reply from: socratease

I refer to abortion as legalized murder. Problem with that phrase?
This is a discussion about proper use of words.
If murder is illegal by definition, then "legalized murder" is a contradiction.
Call it whatever you like. It's an injustice and I can understand why you want to use strong words.
But to call the woman who aborts a "murderer" is unfair, since a murderer first would have to know that she is killing a person, and would have to have that as an intent, and I don't think that's the case with all who abort.

reply from: socratease

No, that is where you place your opinion.
IMO, every woman/girl in the whole world who is old enough to become pregnant knows the "facts of life", and knows that a baby is what a pregnant woman has inside her.
The fact that many go into a state of denial does not change that.
Heck, even a toddler with limited words will point at a pregnant woman's stomach and say "baby". Makes you wonder how they are smarter than choicers...
And there are plenty of prochoicers who would concede it is a baby at that stage.
But there are some who are convinced that an embryo is not a baby, and no toddler will be pointing to a woman's stomach bulging with an embryo or zygote.
To get back to the original point, I think there are many women who are ignorant or who have been deceieved, or who honestly believe that there is no "baby" in the first trimester.

reply from: yoda

Not really. It is simply a statement that abortion is just as bad as murder, but still legal.
How do you like this definition?
Main Entry: 2 murder Function: verb 2 : to slaughter wantonly : SLAY 3 a : to put an end to b : TEASE ,TORMENT c : MUTILATE>, MANGLE : www.m-w.com/dictionary/murder

reply from: yoda

No they don't.
They are up to their necks in denial. They all know better.

reply from: socratease

I think another common misuse of words is saying that a "baby is aborted."
A baby is never aborted. A pregnancy is aborted.

reply from: 4given

Is the unborn a person? What do you call it? Are all women that abort that mentally challenged that they don't realize it is a human person that they are aborting?

reply from: socratease

No they don't.
They are up to their necks in denial. They all know better.
How do you know this?
Do you have any source that supports this assertion?

reply from: socratease

Is the unborn a person? What do you call it? Are all women that abort that mentally challenged that they don't realize it is a human person that they are aborting?
You said in a previous post that you believe some women have been deceived.
I agree with that.
I don't think all women are innocent. I think some know better. But I don't think all do. I don't think all women who who when they made the abortion decision believed they were killing their child. But I believe some know that.

reply from: 4given

*some* I was shocked when I read about the lengths the abortion industry went to secure abortions on women. A few women, as opposed to the majority. A few may choose to deny that fact- the majority know.

reply from: socratease

*some* I was shocked when I read about the lengths the abortion industry went to secure abortions on women. A few women, as opposed to the majority. A few may choose to deny that fact- the majority know.
How do you know the majority know this? Where do you get your statistics?
I have no statistics myslef. I don't know how many know and how many don't know, but I know that some women who have aborted came to realize later in life that that they destroyed a child, but didn't understand that at the time of the abortion.
My common sense tells me that a 13 or 14 year old could easily be convinced she is not killing a child by her abortion and would not be a "murderer" by virtue of her ignorance, but I don't have any way to prove this. Do you have a way to prove that the majority of women who abort know that they are destroying a person?

reply from: CharlesD

Not exactly. The sperm was half of what would become you. The sperm and the egg were existing separately before they met. After they joined, you came into being, not before and not after.

reply from: faithman

Not exactly. The sperm was half of what would become you. The sperm and the egg were existing separately before they met. After they joined, you came into being, not before and not after.
...The 2 shall become one flesh...

reply from: 4given

Common sense tells you that 13 and 14 year old females are that misguided? Wow. Most, public school educated have had 2 sexual education courses by then. Pregnancy is covered. So the majority of women that abort their children, do so because they are ignorant? How many post-abortive women do you know? How many of them were unaware that when they got pregnant, it was with another creature, other than a human person?

reply from: socratease

Common sense tells you that 13 and 14 year old females are that misguided? Wow. Most, public school educated have had 2 sexual education courses by then. Pregnancy is covered. So the majority of women that abort their children, do so because they are ignorant? How many post-abortive women do you know? How many of them were unaware that when they got pregnant, it was with another creature, other than a human person?
I didn't say a majority are ignorant.
I said I don't know what the percentage is.
How do you know that the majority of women know that an abortion kills a baby?
Everyone knows an embryo becomes a baby, but not everyone understands, believes, or knows that it is a person while an embryo.
Do the sex education classes specifically tell these children that an abortion kills a baby? If so, then they are more culpable than I thought. If not, then how do you know they know, and how do you know it's a majority?

reply from: micah

So presumably I magically get a soul when I'm a zygote? What happens if I had an identical twin? A zygote divides into 2. Is that like splitting me into two?
Not exactly. The sperm was half of what would become you. The sperm and the egg were existing separately before they met. After they joined, you came into being, not before and not after.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

None of those women understand it kills a baby. It "just" kills a fetus or embryo, not a "baby". They do not consider the unborn to be the same thing as a baby.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I personally call it manslaughter on the part of the doctor and the woman is an accessory. That's just me though. You could even call it unintended manslaughter because pro-choicers don't realize or believe the unborn is a person, so they don't know they're killing one.

reply from: carolemarie

I call it abortion, which is currently legal.
Laying aside all the labels, the question is really, how can I, a regular person without superpowers help stop this from happening?
How we treat single moms has a great deal to do with how abortion is viewed. Is it a help out of being shamed and embarrased? Or would a unintended pregnancy be greeted with help and genuine joy for this new baby. Do we help single moms with daycare, job training, etc.... do we help at the crisis pregnancy centers?
There is all kinds of thing we can do to foster a pro-child attitude.

reply from: nancyu

You are an idiot at this point.
A sperm merely carries half the DNA information needed to form a new human being. It is NOT a human being.
No, micah, you were never a sperm.

reply from: Banned Member

Pregnant means you're having a BABY folks! Get it now!?
Any man that gets a woman pregnant that doesn't understand that pregnancy means you are carrying a baby should be prosecuted for taking advantage of a mentally handicapped person. Sorry, but if you are so stupid as to not know that being pregnant means you are carrying a baby you shouldn't be having sex.
If the person is legally capable of understanding that pregnancies result in babies, than you should be able to understand that abortion is murder. Ignorance is no excuse in such a grave matter.
People that kill someone while intoxicated behind the wheel of an automobile, cannot later claim that they didn't know that drinking alcohol makes you drunk! Such stupidity just doesn't wash. The guilty should not be coddled as being stupid. If you have an abortion you need to be an adult and step up to the plate and admit your guilt. Abortion kills a human person. Abortion is murder!

reply from: BossMomma

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Really? Then, according to you, these scenes must be the work of "MURDERERS" - or at least "attempted murderers."
How should we punish these "murderers?"
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
That is murder.

reply from: faithman

What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: Banned Member

Spinwiddy, you didn't tell me that you were a propagandist for Al Jazeera!
Boy oh boy... learn something new about you every day!

reply from: faithman

How about not personally killing fetuses, and then making excusses and justifications about it? How about giving the womb child a little more consideration than those hell bent on killing them? You constantly try to cloud the issue for the sake of your sista killas. Labels are used to properly identify things. Fetus killers need to be properly labeled to avoid getting tangled up with them. If I had a bottle of milk, and a bottle of rat poision, I would want them properly labeled. Low life Fetus killing scancs need to wear the labels they earned, so that those who may be considering intamacy will be forwarned that they are monsters full of evil hatred for their womb children. Tell us oh great fetus killer. How does it feel hating three to death? That kind of info may save some from the tradgedy of having their kid legally slaughtered by a fetus hater.

reply from: socratease

What do you mean by "legally capable of understanding"?
I don't understand what "legal capability" is.
Everyone understands that pregnancies, if carried to term, result in a baby.
Not everyone, believes/knows/understands that an embryo is a baby.
If ignorance is not an excuse for such a grave matter, then how would the ignorant know it is a grave matter?
The law tells us that driving while intoxicated is wrong. Everyone who learns to drive is instructed about that. Nobody can claim ignorance.
But what does the law say about abortion? Does the law tell us that it is murder?
Who said anything about "coddling" the guilty.
My assertion is that you cannot call everyone who aborts a murderer, since not everyone believes or knows they are killing a child and there must be an intent to kill for them to be a murderer. Some who abort are victims as much as the child they were carrying.

reply from: faithman

What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: Banned Member

The data about abortion, even from the very people that provide abortions... stongly suggests that women know exactly what they are doing when have an abortion!
The commonality between all the reasons that women give who have abortions is that they do not want a baby!
a. The woman becomes pregnant.
b. The woman does not want a baby.
c. The woman has an abortion.
It's all very simple.

reply from: socratease

And you continue to ingore the point that some do not believe or understand that in the early stages of pregnancy there is a baby.
Could you provide a link to the data that demonstrates that women know "exactly" what they are doing when they have an abortion, i.e., that they are killing a baby.

reply from: BossMomma

Common sense tells you that 13 and 14 year old females are that misguided? Wow. Most, public school educated have had 2 sexual education courses by then. Pregnancy is covered. So the majority of women that abort their children, do so because they are ignorant? How many post-abortive women do you know? How many of them were unaware that when they got pregnant, it was with another creature, other than a human person?
I didn't say a majority are ignorant.
I said I don't know what the percentage is.
How do you know that the majority of women know that an abortion kills a baby?
Everyone knows an embryo becomes a baby, but not everyone understands, believes, or knows that it is a person while an embryo.
Do the sex education classes specifically tell these children that an abortion kills a baby? If so, then they are more culpable than I thought. If not, then how do you know they know, and how do you know it's a majority?
My sex ed. class in school didn't even cover abortion. It covered basic birth control, STDs, pregnancy and child care and, adoption. I didn't even honestly know about abortion until I turned 17 and my sister told me about her best friend having a late term abortion because the baby had something seriously wrong with it. I took it upon myself to educate myself further.

reply from: CharlesD

It doesn't matter if they know what they are doing or not. The baby is no less dead if mom didn't know it was a baby.

reply from: faithman

Oh gosh!!!! How dare you confuse the bortheads and false PLers with the truth!!! You just need to get with it and forget about the children being killed, in favor of their low life scum bag murderers!!!! I mean all you have to do is kill three fetuses, and you are a "pro-life hero", and get to talk down to real PLers. You are just one of those "fetus lovers" who doesn't "get it". Who cares about the baby as long as killer mom walks free?!!!

reply from: socratease

Of course that's true. Nobody is denying that.
YOU started a thread about using words precisely, and I have taken some issue with the word "murder," but mainly in using the word "murderER."
The word "murder" does not apply if someone does not know, believe, or understand they are killing, and if they do not have an intent to kill. Also, "murder" happens to be a legal term, and last time I checked, abortion is legal and therefore not murder, and therefore someone who aborts is not a murderer.
Abortion is an injustice. It unjustly kills a human person.
But all who abort are not "murderers" first because abortion is legal and the law encourages it, and second, even if you want to define murder in a moral sense, they might not have had the intent to kill or the full knowledge that a human person was being killed by the process.
I know some would resist this reasoning because I'm being a spoilsport. I know it's fun for some to look down their noses at people and feel superiour when they can.
There are some very hard core prochoicers who will concede a baby is killed by an abortion, and have zero problem with it, but I am not referring to those people. I am referring to those who might not have fully understood what they did.

reply from: micah

really? Then what was I before I was a zygote? Where did that come from?
You are an idiot at this point.
A sperm merely carries half the DNA information needed to form a new human being. It is NOT a human being.
No, micah, you were never a sperm.

reply from: CharlesD

Prior to that, there was not an individual human being. You came into being when there was a genetically complete human being there.

reply from: lukesmom

*some* I was shocked when I read about the lengths the abortion industry went to secure abortions on women. A few women, as opposed to the majority. A few may choose to deny that fact- the majority know.
It is always amazing to me how some people know the truth but are able to state denial because it suits their purpose at the time and then they actually begin to believe their lies. I see it all the time. Saying you didn't know is a lie and if some people here want to think women are that dumb, that is their purogotive, I guess but they really do a diservice to women.

reply from: lukesmom

and still have abortions, they are the real scary ones.
Embryo/Zygote=baby/infant=toddler=preschooler=grade schooler=preteen=teen=young adult=adult=middle ager=senior citizen
All stages of developement, all human PEOPLE. What don't you get?
Yup, they are carrying some nonhuman something in their mind. They have chosen to be in denial, they have chosen not to seek the truth. That does not mean they are right or their action of killing their unborn child should be legal. It does mean they need to stop lying to themselves and we need to stop enabling them.

reply from: lukesmom

Be real. Are you a female? I am. I know many young girls who became pg when I was in HS and as a young adult and through my life...even now. I also thought I was pg when I was young and single. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't think this positive pregnancy test did not indicate being pregnant with a baby...not one. The overwhelming feeling is fear. Gut renching fear. Fear of telling your parents and fear of what every one will say and fear of what to do. That same fear, I read in posts from pregnant girls and women daily. That fear is what leads them to the easiest and most assessable "answer" to their "problem". I am not saying abortion is an easy choice but instead that it is easier than dealing with the fears of whatever. Girls and women are not ignorant like you want to believe, saying that is an easy way out for everyone. They are also not in denial, they just prefer to ignore what they know is true because it suits their purpose. After a while they often start believing their own lies just so they can live with themselves. That isn't denial, that is avoidance of the truth for convenience.

reply from: micah

This seems rather arbitrary. So suppose my zygote had split so I had an identical twin. Did my soul split or something?
Prior to that, there was not an individual human being. You came into being when there was a genetically complete human being there.

reply from: socratease

Be real. Are you a female? I am. I know many young girls who became pg when I was in HS and as a young adult and through my life...even now. I also thought I was pg when I was young and single. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't think this positive pregnancy test did not indicate being pregnant with a baby...not one. The overwhelming feeling is fear. Gut renching fear. Fear of telling your parents and fear of what every one will say and fear of what to do. That same fear, I read in posts from pregnant girls and women daily. That fear is what leads them to the easiest and most assessable "answer" to their "problem". I am not saying abortion is an easy choice but instead that it is easier than dealing with the fears of whatever. Girls and women are not ignorant like you want to believe, saying that is an easy way out for everyone. They are also not in denial, they just prefer to ignore what they know is true because it suits their purpose. After a while they often start believing their own lies just so they can live with themselves. That isn't denial, that is avoidance of the truth for convenience.
I didn't say ALL are ignorant. I said SOME.
Do you think that all who have aborted deserve to be called "murderers"?

reply from: Rosalie

I personally call it manslaughter on the part of the doctor and the woman is an accessory. That's just me though. You could even call it unintended manslaughter because pro-choicers don't realize or believe the unborn is a person, so they don't know they're killing one.
You speak about it as if it was a fact, but it's still just your opinion.
Fact is, even if though it WAS true and fetus WAS a person, it wouldn't change anything.
No human being, no PERSON has the right to live inside and off someone else's bodily resources while putting the person at considerable risk AGAINST THEIR WILL. That won't change, no matter how much you will try to push your notion that fetus = baby = person. It just doesn't change anything.
How we treat moms in general is horrible. So many women cannot afford being home after baby is born - and I know they'd want to, they'd want to be there to bond and actually enjoy being parents instead of being away most of the time and putting their kids to day care.
Single moms are another issue. It is, for the most part, an issue with outdated, religious anti-women tendencies that some people (and a lot of them seem to be on this board) still support. There's nothing wrong or shameful about being a single mother. The concept of ideal family is getting rather outdated, too. Basically, a child is not automatically doomed just because s/he only has one parent or any other but the classic mother-father situation.
But that demands respect, tolerance, empathy and willingness to help. And clearly way too many "pro-lifers", as it has been demonstrated on this board countless times, have no intentions to do anything about it.

reply from: BossMomma

You were a blastocyst.

reply from: yoda

"Frankly my dear, I really don't give a damn"...... Rhett Butler, "Gone With the Wind".
We really don't care about that. All we care about is stopping the intentional, elective killing of unborn human beings.
Now, try to complicate that, okay?

reply from: micah

So by fiat, you define a zygote as a full person.
"Frankly my dear, I really don't give a damn"...... Rhett Butler, "Gone With the Wind".

reply from: yoda

"Fiat"? I thought that was a car made in Italy.....
No, by authority of the dictionary. Want to see?
Main Entry: zy·gote Pronunciation: 'zI-"gOt Function: noun Etymology: Greek zygOtos yoked, from zygoun to join Date: circa 1887 : a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/zygote

Information Please: http://www.infoplease.com/ipd/A0481706.html / hu'man be'ing 1. any individual of the genus Homo, esp. a member of the species
Obviously, a "developing individual" cannot be other than a human being, and all human beings are people, in the common tongue:
per·son (plural peo·ple per·sons (formal)) noun 1. human being: an individual human being 2. human's body: a human being's body, often including the clothing
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861725217/person.html

reply from: lukesmom

"Frankly my dear, I really don't give a damn"...... Rhett Butler, "Gone With the Wind".
Yes, the same as a newborn is a "full person". We are all in the process of developing from conception to death.

reply from: Banned Member

Chossing to believe that a conceived life is not a person, not a baby, is not the same as not knowing that a conceived life is not a person. Denial, denial, denial! Choosing not to think something is true does not make it true. Choosing to believe that you have not killed a person does not mean that you haven't.

reply from: 4given

No. It is the pro-"choice" women that want to be painted that way.. at least for those that make excuses for them anyway. I believe that *some* women are truly ignorant, and as I stated trusting, but the majority may have a hard time sleeping at night if they didn't justify their abortions in one way or another.

reply from: micah

"fiat" means among other things, an arbitrary, authoritative declaration.
As for "zygote", did you read your own definition? "zygote" means the cell that is formed from 2 reproduction cells (sperm and an egg). I don't understand why you just declare that magically it becomes a human being then and there. Is it because it has all the necessary DNA?
"Fiat"? I thought that was a car made in Italy.....
No, by authority of the dictionary. Want to see?
Main Entry: zy·gote Pronunciation: 'zI-"gOt Function: noun Etymology: Greek zygOtos yoked, from zygoun to join Date: circa 1887 : a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell

reply from: LiberalChiRo

"Fiat"? I thought that was a car made in Italy.....
No, by authority of the dictionary. Want to see?
Main Entry: zy·gote Pronunciation: 'zI-"gOt Function: noun Etymology: Greek zygOtos yoked, from zygoun to join Date: circa 1887 : a cell formed by the union of two gametes; broadly : the developing individual produced from such a cell
Isn't it funny that the man obsessed with dictionaries couldn't be bothered to look up what fiat meant?


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