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11 Year-old Girl Gets Raped and becomes Pregnant-Do you think she should be allowed to get an abortion

by: JRH

You know my position and many of you have made it clear you think rape does not matter for adults. What about a child?

reply from: AshMarie88

If my 11 year old daughter gets raped, she's going to the emergency room immediately.

reply from: BossMomma

I do not think that a child who is raped should be forced to gestate, the psychological damage would be enough without the hardships and possible permenant damage or death that could result in pregnancy and birth.

reply from: scopia19822

She should be taken to the ER, be checked out and given the MAP, but I would not support abortion once the pregnancy has been established. I think the abortion procedure is more degrading and invasive than giving birth. If it was my daughter I would get her the counsling she needs and all the support I could give her to help through this pregnancy. IF she chooses to parent or adopt the child out is up to her.

reply from: micah

No one, child or adult, should be forced to carry a rapist's baby.
I would rather be forced to have sex than carry a rapist's baby for 9 months.
I do not think that a child who is raped should be forced to gestate, the psychological damage would be enough without the hardships and possible permenant damage or death that could result in pregnancy and birth.

reply from: AshMarie88

No rape baby should be forced to be mutilated and thrown away like a piece of freaking trash.

reply from: BossMomma

It's not that the rapists baby is somehow less innocent or worthy of life, it's a matter of choosing one child over the other.

reply from: ChristianLott2

It's not that the rapists baby is somehow less innocent or worthy of life, it's a matter of choosing one child over the other.
pro aborts

reply from: JRH

If you think that all the hormonal changes and pain of giving birth would be worse for an 11 yea old than a first trimester abortion you are mad. Every day she is pregnant she will be reminded of the rape. She would have to be pulled out of school and all her friends will know what happened and most likely she would be mocked. Then she gets to bear the pain of child birth. Messed up
You are not a good mother to her if you force her to bear it as far as I am concerned.

reply from: JRH

I do not think that a child who is raped should be forced to gestate, the psychological damage would be enough without the hardships and possible permenant damage or death that could result in pregnancy and birth.
A surprising and excellent answer.

reply from: scopia19822

"It's not that the rapists baby is somehow less innocent or worthy of life, it's a matter of choosing one child over the other."
I dont believe anybody has the right to "choose" one child over another. That is playing God. I would think an abortion with the force that goes with the vacum aspirator and the damage the cervix can suffer from being forcibly dialted would be more of a threat to her future fertilty than giving birth. Even at that young age birth is still natural and the body will work the way God designed it too during the process of birth. I know that a preteen and teenage moms are going to be in the "high risk category" but with proper prenatal care and support from family and friends will go alot further then taking her off to the clinic. Where the abortion will most likely be done in secret and she innstructed once it is over to never talk of this again.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Plan on raping some 11 year olds this weekend JRH?

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know if she should have an abortion, that would depend on her beliefs and her families beliefs. If she wanted one, then I wouldn't stop her, but I feel she should receive counseling as well as her family before the abortion.

reply from: CharlesD

How many abortion supporters would support a law that left a loophole for rape pregnancies but made the other ones illegal?

reply from: JRH

Plan on raping some 11 year olds this weekend JRH?
Plan on knocking up some harlot then dumping her this weekend Lott?

reply from: JRH

Wrong. This is the age when people still die giving birth even with medical technology.

reply from: BossMomma

Well hey, when your 11 year old daughter gets raped and pregnant YOU can look her in the eyes and tell her she will have to have the baby. I have two girls, if God forbid that ever happens to either of them I will not force them to undertake something that was meant for a grown woman.

reply from: scopia19822

"Wrong. This is the age when people still die giving birth even with medical technology."
So lets take her to some clinic that it either underregulated or not regulated at all and let some incomptent abortionist who could not hack in any legitiment feild of medicine take forceps, forcep open her cervix and stick a vacum hose in her that is 29 times more powerful than a household vac and suck it all out. The human body was not designed for that kind of invasive forcful procedure.

reply from: BossMomma

I do not think that a child who is raped should be forced to gestate, the psychological damage would be enough without the hardships and possible permenant damage or death that could result in pregnancy and birth.
A surprising and excellent answer.
As a mother with two daughters my first priority is the safety and well being of my girls.

reply from: BossMomma

Plan on raping some 11 year olds this weekend JRH?
Plan on knocking up some harlot then dumping her this weekend Lott?
ROTFLMAO!

reply from: BossMomma

That is not how a D&A is performed first off, and secondly an 11 year old would likely be given a medical abortion. I would likely take her to the ER have a rape kit done and the MAP given if I knew soon enough, if not I would talk with her about it and discuss her options and let her take her pick without swaying her in any direction.

reply from: BossMomma

It's not that the rapists baby is somehow less innocent or worthy of life, it's a matter of choosing one child over the other.
pro aborts
Funny coming from a guy who left his children to die.

reply from: scopia19822

"That is not how a D&A is performed first off, and secondly an 11 year old would likely be given a medical abortion. I would likely take her to the ER have a rape kit done and the MAP given if I knew soon enough, if not I would talk with her about it and discuss her options and let her take her pick without swaying her in any direction."
If it was my daugther abortion would not be even be brought into the equation and hopefully if I had raised her right according to Catholic belief she wont bring it up either. If it was even brought up than I would have failed her even more than I thought by her getting raped.

reply from: BossMomma

Good thing I ain't Catholic.

reply from: SRUW4I5

Good thing I ain't Catholic.
Some Christians are that way too.
I think mothers should be willing to let their daughter make the choice. Like when my Pro-Life, Christian mother took me to have an abortion when I was raped. She was against it, but my well-being was more important to her than the fetus (thankfully 'cuz I never would have forgiven her if she thought the fetus was more important)
Being raped is hard enough on girls, why torture them by forcing them to give birth when they don't want to?

reply from: BossMomma

Good thing I ain't Catholic.
Some Christians are that way too.
I think mothers should be willing to let their daughter make the choice. Like when my Pro-Life, Christian mother took me to have an abortion when I was raped. She was against it, but my well-being was more important to her than the fetus (thankfully 'cuz I never would have forgiven her if she thought the fetus was more important)
Being raped is hard enough on girls, why torture them by forcing them to give birth when they don't want to?
Exactly, I could care less if some ignorant twit calls me a pro-abort or some such nonsense, it means more to me to be a good mother and that I am.

reply from: faithman

Good thing I ain't Catholic.
Some Christians are that way too.
I think mothers should be willing to let their daughter make the choice. Like when my Pro-Life, Christian mother took me to have an abortion when I was raped. She was against it, but my well-being was more important to her than the fetus (thankfully 'cuz I never would have forgiven her if she thought the fetus was more important)
Being raped is hard enough on girls, why torture them by forcing them to give birth when they don't want to?
Exactly, I could care less if some ignorant twit calls me a pro-abort or some such nonsense, it means more to me to be a good mother and that I am.
The art of being a good mother begins with picking a good father for her children. How are you doing in that department?

reply from: SRUW4I5

Good thing I ain't Catholic.
Some Christians are that way too.
I think mothers should be willing to let their daughter make the choice. Like when my Pro-Life, Christian mother took me to have an abortion when I was raped. She was against it, but my well-being was more important to her than the fetus (thankfully 'cuz I never would have forgiven her if she thought the fetus was more important)
Being raped is hard enough on girls, why torture them by forcing them to give birth when they don't want to?
Exactly, I could care less if some ignorant twit calls me a pro-abort or some such nonsense, it means more to me to be a good mother and that I am.
The art of being a good mother begins with picking a good father for her children. How are you doing in that department?
It isn't her fault if a man turns out to be horrible. A lot of men will be nice, sweet, caring, loving, etc. until they get the woman in bed or pregnant. Then they will show their true colors.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The penalty for a man raping an eleven year old should be among the most severe. The dad should initially be sentenced to be in prison until his child is age 21. During this time he should have work privileges to pay the child's support. He is also responsible for the mother's living expenses and medical expenses. The man will be required to meet all housing, medical, food, clothing costs, etc of both mother and child up to his offspring's 21st birthday.
Meeting his obligations can result in probation. Failure to comply can mean serving the full sentence and enhancers for failure to meet the mother and baby's financial needs.
The baby is already there, mom is pregnant, killing the baby is never an option.

reply from: scopia19822

"Good thing I ain't Catholic."
And good thing Im not Protestant.

reply from: micah

I don't think anyone on this forum lives on this planet. Do you think there is any serious politician alive who would force an 11 year old girl to bare a rapist's baby? Not even George W. Bush wouldn't make an abortion exception for rape cases.

reply from: carolemarie

It sounds like a power thing. The prolifers seem to want to force people to do what they believe is right with absolutly no concern for the person they are imposing these laws on
Abortion is a terrible trauma. So is rape. I don't know which is worse

reply from: scopia19822

"Abortion is a terrible trauma. So is rape. I don't know which is worse"
Having been raped twice in my life once as a teenager and then 2 years ago. I would have to say in my experince it would be the abortion. I would rather be raped 1000 times a day than to go through that abortion.

reply from: CharlesD

Yeah, because if you were you would have to immediately give up dancing, playing cards, and going to movies. Being Protestant is a tough life. Not everyone is cut out for it.

reply from: carolemarie

A forced abortion IS rape. There is no difference.

reply from: scopia19822

"Yeah, because if you were you would have to immediately give up dancing, playing cards, and going to movies. Being Protestant is a tough life. Not everyone is cut out for it"
And God forbid if I wore make up or pants.

reply from: BossMomma

Do you even have a daughter?

reply from: BossMomma

I'm not either, I attend a Baptist church because there isn't a nondenominational church in my area. I believe that the path to God begins in the heart, not in the church or it's denomination.

reply from: scopia19822

"Do you even have a daughter?"
I did but she is now deceased. If she had lived or I was able to have anymore that is how I would handle the sitiatuion.

reply from: BossMomma

I've been raped for a full year of my life, from age 15 to age 16, I was told he would shoot my family one by one if I did not go to him each day and if I told he'd kill them all. I was never impregnated as the piece of shyte always used a condom. Had I been impregnated I can't promise I'd have carried it to term.
I will do all in my power to spare my child that pain and fear, but if the worst happens I will not force her to pack around the seed of that son of a pig just to appease some pro-fetal-lifer's obsession with the unborn. I will leave the decision to my child and support her in what ever decision she makes.

reply from: JRH

What about you faithman?

reply from: Teresa18

I believe all persons have the God-given Constitutional right to life unless guilty of a serious crime that would warrant taking it away for public safety. The unborn child is a person. Therefore, he/she would have the right to life. The unborn child is guilty of no crime. The unborn child is an innocent victim. He/she wasn't able to consent and was thrust into a dangerous situation with his/her safety, health, and life hanging in the balance. The rapist committed a terrible act of aggression against the young girl he raped and the unborn child. The young girl can take the aggression he forced on her and direct it towards the unborn child, but then she would be acting as an agent of his aggression. Why answer a horrible act with another? Why answer a horrible act by having a young girl go to a clinic to have a life inside of her that is her own child forcefully destroyed like this http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html? Why answer a horrible act by executing an innocent victim of it and likely giving the rapist himself a few years in jail and letting him be on his merry way?
Perhaps she couldn't carry the child to term, but perhaps the unborn child could be held to sure viability and delivered via C-Section. Regardless, she deserves free counseling and medical care if needed provided by the government for as long as necessary.
Here are cases of young girls having children, most due to rape:
Cases by age of mother from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

reply from: BossMomma

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers
So because the child possibly could have the baby she should be raped again by being forced to have it?

reply from: Teresa18

Rape is a forced sex. Carrying a child is not forced sex.
- noun 1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

reply from: BossMomma

Love how you dodged the question. Should a child be forced to bear a child ontop of being raped?

reply from: JRH

I think we know what rape is. I don't see how that is an answer.

reply from: JRH

Not if he or she uses another person without consent. Sorry.
So? I may have cancer and need your kidney but I can not force you to give it to me.
Because for an 11 year old birthing the child is physically dangerous and most likely psychologically damaging.
Nearly as dangerous as a live birth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers
Yes, and each case was dangerous and problematic.

reply from: Teresa18

I didn't dodge the question. You said, "So because the child possibly could have the baby she should be raped again by being forced to have it?" You implied that pregnancy was a second rape.
I'll answer this. She already has a child once she is pregnant. The question is, should that child be killed? I would say no. I explained why I think that child should not be aborted in my first paragraph of the long post with the Wiki info in it.

reply from: BossMomma

I didn't dodge the question. You said, "So because the child possibly could have the baby she should be raped again by being forced to have it?" You implied that pregnancy was a second rape.
I'll answer this. She already has a child once she is pregnant. The question is, should that child be killed? I would say no. I explained why I think that child should not be aborted in my first paragraph of the long post with the Wiki info in it.
Even if the raped child did not want to gestate you would force her? That is monsterous and your statements make it quite obvious that you value the unborn above the born.

reply from: Teresa18

The child never consented to being concieved either. How is one of the most vulnerable among us with no voice capable of asking for his/her mother's consent?
If I deny you my kidney, you die from the cancer. Your death is not my fault. If I get pregnant from rape and have an abortion, it is my fault the child dies. I deliberately have deliberately killed the child.
Like I said, a C-Section can be done. The rate of death from birth and C-Sections is low in this country. If there was a problem, I would support saving the life of the mother. Opening her up and killing her child isn't psychologically damaging? Making her an agent of the rapist's aggression isn't psychologically damaging?
In all cases provided the girls and babies were ok.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

reply from: Teresa18

Where did I say I value the unborn above the born? In my scenario, two people are alive. In your scenario, only one person is alive. It sounds like you value the born above the unborn.

reply from: BossMomma

Where did I say I value the unborn above the born? In my scenario, two people are alive. In your scenario, only one person is alive. It sounds like you value the born above the unborn.
I would value my daughter above her pregnancy, particularly if she were raped. I would not have it in me to look into her eyes and tell her that the potential life that was forced inside her was more important. You from what I read have no children, perhaps if you finally do have a daughter you will know where I'm coming from.

reply from: SRUW4I5

There is a pill that is legal until the woman/girl is 8 or 9 weeks pregnant (could be different in other states) that causes the woman/girl to "lose" the unborn child. It is also known as the "abortion pill". That does not involve opening her up, unless having her swallow a couple of pills opens her up (I don't see how it does).
Another option that doesn't involve opening her up is a suction abortion. They stick this kinda long tube like thing up the woman or girl's vagina, and it pretty much vacuums the unborn child out of the woman/girl. I don't see how using a hole that is already there can be considered opening her up.
Last I heard, the risk of pyschological damage from abortion was about the same as that from childbirth (and pregnacy). Pre-teens and teens (as well as anyone younger than that) are at a higher risk of being suicidal and depressed because of pregnancy/childbirth. I'm not sure if it's the same for abortion, but I'm guessing it's something like that too.

reply from: nancyu

It isn't a matter of an 11 year old being allowed to get an abortion. Your thinking is that she should be forced to get an abortion.
Most would believe that an 11 year old is not capable of making her own decision in this case, so an adult would probably have to make this decision for her.
Now the question becomes, what should the decision be?
It has nothing whatever to do with force one way or the other. And I'm weary of hearing "forced birth", "forced pregnancy" when most of you pro aborts would have no problem with forced abortion, especially in cases like this one.

reply from: AshMarie88

Where did I say I value the unborn above the born? In my scenario, two people are alive. In your scenario, only one person is alive. It sounds like you value the born above the unborn.
I would value my daughter above her pregnancy, particularly if she were raped. I would not have it in me to look into her eyes and tell her that the potential life that was forced inside her was more important. You from what I read have no children, perhaps if you finally do have a daughter you will know where I'm coming from.
*life

reply from: smom

well, i happen to know girls of that age that keeping them NOT pregnant is harder than hell! some would be thrilled with their very own baby. you all act like having a baby is the worse thing ever. you act as if the baby did this to the girl... when the baby has proven the guy's guilt and most likely puts the criminal behind bars!!! I'd say that the baby is more a hero and a gift than anything else. Hell, the baby has brought JUSTICE to the girl for bringing the man to the forefront with HIS DNA and proof!!!
and that is if the baby even goes to birth.. i couldnt have gotten pregnant at that age due to late menses. i was well after fifteen.. the chances are slim mostly. and if the girl DID get pregnant at least he is found and cannot hide from the truth. God will not give us more than we can handle.
Having a baby is just a change in circumstances. being violated is a nightmare. no way can the two be compared. a baby did not harm or force her down. he/she is a victim in this too! And to be protected and loved and brought up with a better standard of life is the remedy in all of this. i may not choose the father of my baby, but I'll be damned if i dont raise him/her up to a life accordingly and be a better person through it all. You dont just sit on your arse and give up like a quitter. You pull your sleeves back and say this is MY LIFE and this is how im going to do it!! Just as if there were other victims in the attack, you wouldnt say sorry bout their luck.. youd be gettin you team together and unite and do what is right in court.. well... your baby is your team!!! your baby is a victim and would very much like to unite and fight the good fight alongside mommie!!! That child is a clean slate! No reason to punish the innocent!!! I'd think that would be part of the healing process of bring a child through justice and raising an upstanding citizen.
I can just see my daughter and I arguing over who would raise and take care of the baby and how... and her protectiveness and wanting to take charge!! brings a tear to my eye. You all act like its the damnd end of the world... and i say its just the beginning of a very unique journey. So what if the lil girl gets pregnant JR... what the hell are YOU worried about. If her body is menstrual its ready to have babies. Its the way of things. girls were having babies for many centuries before you even GRACED this earth. Be thankful they didnt give up on the account of you just because it was inconvienient and it hurt alot.. they were given birth LONG time before meds... Lord however did they do it. i did it. 4x's and i bloodie didnt die now, did i ?!. I hear coming to this country by an ole wood boat and rickety ole wagon wasnt the best of times for a pregnant girl... we should ever be thankful of what inheretance we received with the blessings of this country!!! lil girls have babies all the time. why should we think its so different and deadly to the world of girls??? even women die in birth. get over it. Ya know.. theres a girl i know that had her skin burned off at that age. we dont always get a choice what comes our way. She is a happy young lady. She endured a LOT of pain. But i saw her christmas picture in her card this year and the smiles are forever... just as the laughter of a beautiful baby. we got to remember the good in this. the hidden blessings amongst the pain and tribulation. Even Katrina was paved with blessings untold.
there are some blessings not even mentioned. THANK GOD SHE SURVIVED THE ORDEAL!!! THANK GOD THAT SHE IS OKAY AND ABLE TO LIVE ANOTHER DAY... THOSE ARE HUGE FEATS COMPARED TO HAVIN A BABY. SOME GIRLS DONT EVEN GET THAT GIFT... THE GIFT OF LIFE. WE SHOULD BE BLESSED THAT BEING PREGNANT IS THE ONLY THING THAT HAS HAPPENED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: CharlesD

Even the non denominational churches have become something of a denomination in their own way because so many of them are similar. The point is that a believer is a Christian first and a [insert label here] second.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Yeah, because if you were you would have to immediately give up dancing, playing cards, and going to movies. Being Protestant is a tough life. Not everyone is cut out for it.
Don't forget about also giving up drinking, smoking and having food in the church building! And no more wine for Communion - you get grape juice.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

The child never consented to being concieved either. How is one of the most vulnerable among us with no voice capable of asking for his/her mother's consent?
If I deny you my kidney, you die from the cancer. Your death is not my fault. If I get pregnant from rape and have an abortion, it is my fault the child dies. I deliberately have deliberately killed the child.
Like I said, a C-Section can be done. The rate of death from birth and C-Sections is low in this country. If there was a problem, I would support saving the life of the mother. Opening her up and killing her child isn't psychologically damaging? Making her an agent of the rapist's aggression isn't psychologically damaging?
In all cases provided the girls and babies were ok.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20427256/

The maternal death rate in the US is RISING, in part due to a higher number of C-sections.

reply from: BossMomma

Where did I say I value the unborn above the born? In my scenario, two people are alive. In your scenario, only one person is alive. It sounds like you value the born above the unborn.
I would value my daughter above her pregnancy, particularly if she were raped. I would not have it in me to look into her eyes and tell her that the potential life that was forced inside her was more important. You from what I read have no children, perhaps if you finally do have a daughter you will know where I'm coming from.
*life
Ever hear of miscarriage? The life is potential until viability. Potential life, don't correct my statements.

reply from: ChristianLott2

bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
Quick question boss. If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?

reply from: smom

'Some health statisticians note the total number of maternal deaths - still fewer than 600 each year - is small. It's so small that 50 to 100 extra deaths could raise the rate, said Donna Hoyert, a health scientist with the National Center for Health Statistics. The rate is the number of deaths per 100,000 live births'
it talked of especially mothers who get several csections which my sister in law and aunt would do nothing else than their precious csections. i preferred the ole style. grunt and bear it.
there is not foolproof way. as there is no guarantee that you will get from A to point B in one piece. the majority of these medical procedures has come to be helpful. even the anastesia is not perfectly safe. yet we take the risk when we sign the waivers, eh? hell, theres also no guarantee on how it will come or IF IT WILL come... i THOUGHT i would have a planned epidural.. scheduled, arrived on time... half way through the procedure : doctor fell asleep down the hall... never happened...
i thought i would get to the hospital on time.... barely made it.... thought i'd be birthin in the parkin lot.. even considered it at one point.... not everything goes according to our plans.
btw.. sorry, bossy bout your childhood trauma. i bet it wasnt easy for you. and many girls out there. and had they not gotten pregnant these jerkweeds would still be abusing other girls out there and bringing havoc behind closed doors. lets pray that girls gain their voice and scream fire! and not let these bullies scare them into silence!!!! peace be with you.
ps.. i'd want my daughter to know that no matter how bad it is that she can always come to me and we will figure SOMETHING out. I try to teach her this in my daily grind with how i treat her and how i approach situations that she hasnt been the best. tis better to be out and truthful from the getgo than to let thangs fester and postulate. i truely am sorry and hopefully we can all learn something from it from this day forward. (hug)

reply from: carolemarie

Those cases were terrible. What is best for the victim is and should be the main concern...

reply from: JRH

It does not matter. If it does not get consent it does not have the right to make another being it's slave.

If a fetus is a person it has duties as well as rights. One of them is to not violate another being such as the girl in question. If it is aware of it does not matter. If I was trying to take your kidney by force you be justified in killing me. This is basically what the fetus is doing even though it is not self aware. It is using the girl and she has not consented to it. It has failed in it's duty not to violate anothers rights, and killing it is perfectly moral.

Also, the fetus can be removed from the womb in the catholic way by removing the ovaries so to avoid directly killing as Catholics do , so your argument fails anyway.
Still risky for a young girl. It will also put her at risk of never being able to have children again in the future with a man they do care about.
Little too late if she dies during the c section.
Abortions in the early stages of pregnancy are easy and fast. Much less harmful to her mind.
This is nonsense. If I kill a rapist it is fine. The fetus is basically raping the woman.
Yes, but some people always survive the worst things.
I'm actually glad you oppose abortion for her, though. Even bossmomma and micah thought it sounded crazy. As long as people like you exist abortion will never be illegal because rape acts as a good way to tug on people's heartstrings. Keep up the good work!

reply from: xnavy

i do have a daughter who is 14years old and if she was raped, i would take her to the emergency room and given a rape kit. if she
got pregnant i would consider there to be 2 lives and tell her there is now a baby inside her and she should not kill it. i have never been
raped so i can only imagine what it is like, but i still would not consider abortion an option for her. my 78 year old father would probably
shoot the rapist if he got a chance, because he is a ex marine. i would suggest she go to a special school for pregnant teens. and give
the baby up for adoption. i would also get her alot of counseling.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Would you allow the hospital to give your daughter the morning-after pill, which does NOT affect an existing pregnancy?

reply from: AshMarie88

It does not matter. If it does not get consent it does not have the right to make another being it's slave.

If a fetus is a person it has duties as well as rights. One of them is to not violate another being such as the girl in question. If it is aware of it does not matter. If I was trying to take your kidney by force you be justified in killing me. This is basically what the fetus is doing even though it is not self aware. It is using the girl and she has not consented to it. It has failed in it's duty not to violate anothers rights, and killing it is perfectly moral.
Also, the fetus can be removed from the womb in the catholic way by removing the ovaries so to avoid directly killing as Catholics do , so your argument fails anyway.
Still risky for a young girl. It will also put her at risk of never being able to have children again in the future with a man they do care about.
Little too late if she dies during the c section.
Abortions in the early stages of pregnancy are easy and fast. Much less harmful to her mind.
This is nonsense. If I kill a rapist it is fine. The fetus is basically raping the woman.
Yes, but some people always survive the worst things.
I'm actually glad you oppose abortion for her, though. Even bossmomma and micah thought it sounded crazy. As long as people like you exist abortion will never be illegal because rape acts as a good way to tug on people's heartstrings. Keep up the good work!
Someone should stick you in a giant uterus and "choose" you...

reply from: CharlesD

Once an organism is alive, it has life. It might be accurately described as potential viability, but not potential life. If it is alive, it already has life, not the potential to have life.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It's not potential life... it IS a life. Miscarriage means it died... so it's still alive, it's just not born.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I found this article to be interesting:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298996,00.html

reply from: scopia19822

"Love how you dodged the question. Should a child be forced to bear a child ontop of being raped?"
If you call it force than I guess so. A child concieved in rape no matter what the circumstances has the right to life as any one else. When a girl/woman is raped she is victim. If she becomes pregnant there are 2 victims to consider. I consider the girl and the unborn child equal in value. A medical abortion may be used, but some women find they still have to end up going through a surgical abortion. I think a medical abortion would be even more psycologicaly traumatic than being knocked out for a surgical abortion. It is not a painless procedure, alot more painful than even the mose severe menstrual cramps and the unborn child is often passed at home on the toilet. How is that a better option than giving birth?

reply from: Teresa18

Potential life? There is a potential for life before conception. After conception, there is a person. I think both lives are equally important.

reply from: carolemarie

if you are okay with the morning after pill, why not a very early abortion.
That is why the hard cases are a personal decision after couneling for her and the family.

reply from: AshMarie88

if you are okay with the morning after pill, why not a very early abortion.
That is why the hard cases are a personal decision after couneling for her and the family.
Because the morning after pill, to prevent pregnancy, isn't the same as killing an already conceived baby.

reply from: carolemarie

I care more at this point for the raped 11 year old
There is no good solution.

reply from: Teresa18

I am aware of the pill. I neglected to include that in my post. That's more painful than a surgical abortion because you are awake for the whole thing.
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/medical-ab.htm

A Father's Crusade: The Dangers of the Abortion Pill Mifeprex (Interesting article)
http://www.lhj.com/health/sexual/reproductive/a-fathers-crusade-the-dangers-of-the-abortion-pill-mifeprex/

A life is being killed. This pill is designed to kill a person and cause a woman's body to malfunction. I can't imagine giving a young girl a pill that will cause her to miscarry a child, her child!
Suction abortion involves the legs being opened and the following occuring:
http://www.abortiontv.com/Methods/themanyways.htm

Health and Mental Effects of Abortion:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/effects/effects.asp

Study: Rates of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Increased 61% After Abortion
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/feb/08021401.html

reply from: 4given

Yeah. I will take lowlita's word for it when she said "those pills hurt like hell."
Sad really. Were there rape exceptions Pre-Roe? I learned that an abortion for a baby that was due to an alleged rape, could be obtained in other states prior to RvW in my state. Now of course we have no restrictions.. Pre-Roe, was it a state issue?

reply from: Teresa18

Yes, Pre-Roe it was. Of course, Pre-Roe, the unborn weren't recognized as persons nationwide.

reply from: micah

As a pro-choice person, I have to say there is a small part of me that is thankful that so many anti-choice folk will admit that they would force an 11 year old girl to carry a rapist's baby. The American center voter will only accept so much. You start talking about forcing an 11-year old girl to become a mother, and you won't last long. From a practical standpoint, these extremist pro-life nutjobs are really doing us pro-choicers a favor.

reply from: AshMarie88

We're not trying to "force" anyone to carry anyone's baby. We're not locking 11 year old rape victims up in cages for 9 months and forcing them to gestate.

reply from: Banned Member

I can't believe people can be so...so...it's hard to even find a word to describe a person like you. Several spring to mind, like torturous, cruel, naive, ignorant, hideous, evil, close-minded, heartless...I could go on.
It's horrible enough to act as though it's no big deal, but to actually act as though it's a blessing...you are sick. Some of the girls in your examples were barely more than babies themselves.
Newsflash, whether you want to believe it or not, not all pregnancies are little miracles waiting to be born. Some pregnancies, whether aborted or carried to term are nothing more than heartbreak for all parties involved.

reply from: Banned Member

Care to provide any proof that none of these girls suffered terrible psychological damage?

reply from: Banned Member

You're sick. Sure, most small children would love the idea of playing house with a real live baby for awhile, you think that qualifies them to be a parent. You're not only sick, you are stupid.

reply from: Banned Member

I know there a lot of prolifers who think that the morning after pill should be banned as well...How many of you think that it shouldn't even be available in cases of rape?

reply from: AshMarie88

<<<<< for the M-A-P

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I am 100% for the MAP for all sexually active women.

reply from: smom

woah there, lil lady...
I didnt say it made them instant perfect parents. I just said that it would be the beginning of a very UNIQUE JOURNEY. I think the gparents definitely should be involved in this situation. I was trying to dispell this horrid atrocity that a baby has come into the picture. Its not the end all. It surely takes you on a new unpredicted trip, but its nothing to fret over that is any worse than other tragedies that befall people. Its managable. thats what im saying.
you are entitled to your oppinion thankfully in this country, so I welcome it. However.. i do think its a bit childish attacking me in that manner. and thats MY oppinion.
I also tried to put my child's thought process together a bit... She is thoughtful and compassionate. She has worries for today and for the moment, she tries to always do the right thing, she tries to consider others before her. The past doesnt consume her as it does for adults. I cannot imagine in her honest , thoughtful, and kind way... her very nurturous way of wanting to END a baby's life just because she found herself in that situation. Its not the mothers fault and its definitely not the baby's. As a matter of fact, I can absolutely hear her now and her SHOCK that i would even suggest she have HER baby killed. I can hear her arguing at me for it too! She is an excellent debater and corrects me sometimes.
And you act as if youve never heard of a pregnant 11 year old.. I hear its a bit more common than believed and not even through rape! Its not an easy situation and you hope it wont happen.... its different from most, but you deal with what youve been given. Imagine some moms that are pregnant with over four and five babies at a time. Its a might uncomfortable, but its livable.
http://www.azdhs.gov/phs/owch/pdf/teenprg.pdf
this talks of the numbers of pregnancies of LIVE BIRTHS of young girls 10-14.. it happens more than we know.
http://www.health.state.ny.us/statistics/chac/birth/tp1014.htm

just because i dont believe in abortion doesnt mean that i dont believe in adoption.

reply from: BossMomma

bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
Quick question boss. If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been. And my above statement was not BS. Before viability an embryo, zygote or, even a 10 week fetus can spontainiously abort for various reasons. It is potential life.

reply from: BossMomma

You might as well be, you are telling this child that she will have a child whether she wants to or not. You are telling her that she WILL endure that humiliation, that segregation. You are telling her that a rapists fetus is more important than her, damn the risks, damn the complications that could arise and, damn her feelings of self worth. You people are pro-fetal-life only, once the cord is cut that life you screamed so much for is meaningless.

reply from: BossMomma

It's not potential life... it IS a life. Miscarriage means it died... so it's still alive, it's just not born.
It is life on a mere cellular level, it could terminate at any time on it's own.

reply from: BossMomma

It does not matter. If it does not get consent it does not have the right to make another being it's slave.

If a fetus is a person it has duties as well as rights. One of them is to not violate another being such as the girl in question. If it is aware of it does not matter. If I was trying to take your kidney by force you be justified in killing me. This is basically what the fetus is doing even though it is not self aware. It is using the girl and she has not consented to it. It has failed in it's duty not to violate anothers rights, and killing it is perfectly moral.

Also, the fetus can be removed from the womb in the catholic way by removing the ovaries so to avoid directly killing as Catholics do , so your argument fails anyway.
Still risky for a young girl. It will also put her at risk of never being able to have children again in the future with a man they do care about.
Little too late if she dies during the c section.
Abortions in the early stages of pregnancy are easy and fast. Much less harmful to her mind.
This is nonsense. If I kill a rapist it is fine. The fetus is basically raping the woman.
Yes, but some people always survive the worst things.
I'm actually glad you oppose abortion for her, though. Even bossmomma and micah thought it sounded crazy. As long as people like you exist abortion will never be illegal because rape acts as a good way to tug on people's heartstrings. Keep up the good work!
Well, some of us think more with our brain than others, and some of us love our little girls enough to do what is best for THEM.

reply from: nancyu

bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
Quick question boss. If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been. And my above statement was not BS. Before viability an embryo, zygote or, even a 10 week fetus can spontainiously abort for various reasons. It is potential life.
If there is such a thing as "potential life" (there isn't) then you would be it. You are not viable until you can survive without others to care for you.
Ever hear of natural death? Does it justify homicide?

reply from: nancyu

You might as well be, you are telling this child that she will have a child whether she wants to or not. You are telling her that she WILL endure that humiliation, that segregation. You are telling her that a rapists fetus is more important than her, damn the risks, damn the complications that could arise and, damn her feelings of self worth. You people are pro-fetal-life only, once the cord is cut that life you screamed so much for is meaningless.
And you would tell this 11 year old child what? That she must have an abortion whether she wants to or not. You are telling her that her child is "the rapist's fetus" Well it is not. It is part of her, and it is a separate, individual person, too.

reply from: AshMarie88

You might as well be, you are telling this child that she will have a child whether she wants to or not. You are telling her that she WILL endure that humiliation, that segregation. You are telling her that a rapists fetus is more important than her, damn the risks, damn the complications that could arise and, damn her feelings of self worth. You people are pro-fetal-life only, once the cord is cut that life you screamed so much for is meaningless.
Yea, because my almost year-old second cousin was saved from being aborted by half me and people outside a PP clinic... I sure cared about him AND my cousin then, but I guess I didn't care AFTER he was born... even tho I did see his birth, I still do babysit when I have the time, I see him every now and then (because my cousin always seems to have others babysit him, and when I see her at her mom's, she doesn't always have him), and every time I do I get butterflies. I've taken care of him overnights, AND her first son, whom I helped raise since he too was born, babysat him for almost 3 years, kept him overnights many times. Got up at 5 a.m. and babysat til 7 p.m. 4 times a week. That takes dedication, and only people who love kids could do that... I MUST be only pro-fetal-life...

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I couldn't imagine telling my eleven year old daughter that we are going to an abortionist and he is going to inject a salt solution to poison a baby to death or he will use instruments to reach in and rip out parts of the baby one by one. The horror.
You are a nutjob to do such a thing.
And how does the birth of a happy smiling baby compare unfavorably to the horror and atrocities of ripping that child to pieces?
Abortion is an unspeakable horror...don't go there. Only other murders compare in magnitude to this horrific event. Don't counsel a naive young girl to participate in a horrible, horrible murder of a preborn baby.

reply from: BossMomma

bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
Quick question boss. If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been. And my above statement was not BS. Before viability an embryo, zygote or, even a 10 week fetus can spontainiously abort for various reasons. It is potential life.
If there is such a thing as "potential life" (there isn't) then you would be it. You are not viable until you can survive without others to care for you.
Ever hear of natural death? Does it justify homicide?
Uhm, no one else is taking care of me. I am a viable independant life. Natural death comes to us all, homicide is action taken to kill a person.

reply from: CharlesD

Abortions from rape pregnancies number in the hundreds every year. Total abortions are over a million. This thread has fulfilled its intended purpose, which was to keep us arguing about an extremely minute number of cases instead of discussing the over 98% of abortions that are done for no other reason than the baby simply being unwanted and inconvenient. We need to stop arguing about the circumstances surrounding each and every pregnancy and focus on being an advocate for the humanity, personhood, and inherent right to life of every human being, regardless of stage of development, location, or the circumstances of the birth.

reply from: nancyu

bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
Quick question boss. If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been. And my above statement was not BS. Before viability an embryo, zygote or, even a 10 week fetus can spontainiously abort for various reasons. It is potential life.
If there is such a thing as "potential life" (there isn't) then you would be it. You are not viable until you can survive without others to care for you.
Ever hear of natural death? Does it justify homicide?
Uhm, no one else is taking care of me. I am a viable independant life.
Washttp://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-dec2708-hypothermia_death.11c85b2f.html hers a viable independent life? NO. She was not viable without warmth, and she was not independent, and neither are you. YOU could not survive without support from others. People need one another to survive. No one is viable. No one is independent.
Exactly, and abortion is homicide; regardless of the age or "viability" of the child.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Most cases of abortion are by mature women who have been prosmiscous who simply want to be rid of the "accidential" baby that resulted.
The rape and resulting pregnancy of an eleven year old is a less common occurrence. However, there are a couple of major points.
1) The 11 year old child is below the age of accountability and cannot make her own informed decisions based on properly weighing life experiences and good judgment. Therefore, it is important that adults make sure she doesn't make the mistake of killing her own baby. Adults cannot permit abortion, they must make responsible decisions for the 11 year old girl.
2) The Bible says a man that forcefully rapes a woman/child is under the same obligations to the mother and child "as if he was married". Therefore, a judge must make sure the rapist is responsible for all of the mother and baby's financial needs. The man is responsible for the baby's expenses until age 21. The man is responsible for all of the eleven year old girl's expenses until her death or until she is married, whichever comes first. The rapist should be incarcerated if he refuses to take care of his financial responsibilities. Work release should be available.

reply from: nancyu

Why don't you come to Maine BossMomma, and see how viable you are without shelter.
http://www.ask.com/weather/c?q=weather+in+Rumford%2C+ME&wdtl=2&wshdop=1&wreg=1&wcwid=18954&wsw=1&qsrc=2420&o=0&l=dir

reply from: BossMomma

You mean the shelter and utilities I have to work and pay for? Why don't you go to Kenya where children are 'surviving' without nutritious food, clean water or, shelter, trying living their life for a week and see how viable your goofy ass is.

reply from: nancyu

You mean the shelter and utilities I have to work and pay for? Why don't you go to Kenya where children are 'surviving' without nutritious food, clean water or, shelter, trying living their life for a week and see how viable your goofy ass is.
So the 11 year old girl in Idaho wasn't entitled to shelter and utilities because she did not work and pay for them?
How viable would your goofy ass be if you lost your job?

reply from: BossMomma

You mean the shelter and utilities I have to work and pay for? Why don't you go to Kenya where children are 'surviving' without nutritious food, clean water or, shelter, trying living their life for a week and see how viable your goofy ass is.
So the 11 year old girl in Idaho wasn't entitled to shelter and utilities because she did not work and pay for them?
How viable would your goofy ass be if you lost your job?
My goofy ass wouldn't lose my job cause fortunantly I do my job and prisons are in no way threatened with shutting down. A child does not have the same obligations an adult has, a child's needs should be met by the parents. An 11 year old is entitled to a home, clothing, food and, health care. She is also entitled to be a CHILD, not forced into the role of an adult. You have no point as usual and I refuse to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed woman.

reply from: CharlesD

You just illustrated how silly it is to argue about viability. Viability isn't what gives a human being the right to life; being a human being is.
My in laws are in Kenya. Their viability is partially supported by the large amounts of money I send over there, but most Kenyans do have adequate shelter, clean water, and nutritious food. They're not all watching plasma TVs and surfing the web on broadband connections, so I guess that makes them a bit more backward than we are.

reply from: nancyu

You mean the shelter and utilities I have to work and pay for? Why don't you go to Kenya where children are 'surviving' without nutritious food, clean water or, shelter, trying living their life for a week and see how viable your goofy ass is.
So the 11 year old girl in Idaho wasn't entitled to shelter and utilities because she did not work and pay for them?
How viable would your goofy ass be if you lost your job?
My goofy ass wouldn't lose my job cause fortunantly I do my job and prisons are in no way threatened with shutting down. A child does not have the same obligations an adult has, a child's needs should be met by the parents. An 11 year old is entitled to a home, clothing, food and, health care. She is also entitled to be a CHILD, not forced into the role of an adult. You have no point as usual and I refuse to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed woman.

I think you meant to say "as an unarmed woman." I do have a point, you just missed it. No wait, I don't think you missed it at all, you are just trying to divert from it. Here it is again:
No one is viable without support from others. So viability is not a justification for killing a child before or after his birth.
Is my point clear enough?

reply from: BossMomma

You mean the shelter and utilities I have to work and pay for? Why don't you go to Kenya where children are 'surviving' without nutritious food, clean water or, shelter, trying living their life for a week and see how viable your goofy ass is.
So the 11 year old girl in Idaho wasn't entitled to shelter and utilities because she did not work and pay for them?
How viable would your goofy ass be if you lost your job?
My goofy ass wouldn't lose my job cause fortunantly I do my job and prisons are in no way threatened with shutting down. A child does not have the same obligations an adult has, a child's needs should be met by the parents. An 11 year old is entitled to a home, clothing, food and, health care. She is also entitled to be a CHILD, not forced into the role of an adult. You have no point as usual and I refuse to continue a battle of wits with an unarmed woman.

I think you meant to say "as an unarmed woman." I do have a point, you just missed it. No wait, I don't think you missed it at all, you are just trying to divert from it. Here it is again:
No one is viable without support from others. So viability is not a justification for killing a child before or after his birth.
Is my point clear enough? Nope cause you never had one to begin with. If there is no point of viability Doctors wouldn't tell us at 24 weeks that we have reached the point of viability. If there was no point of viability fetal homicide laws would count from conception to birth (they don't in case you were wondering). If there were no point of viability a fetus could be removed at any age and be expected to live.

reply from: BossMomma

You just illustrated how silly it is to argue about viability. Viability isn't what gives a human being the right to life; being a human being is.
My in laws are in Kenya. Their viability is partially supported by the large amounts of money I send over there, but most Kenyans do have adequate shelter, clean water, and nutritious food. They're not all watching plasma TVs and surfing the web on broadband connections, so I guess that makes them a bit more backward than we are.
Can your relatives breath on their own? Feed themselves? Eliminate waste on their own or do you do that for them via an umbelical cord?

reply from: CharlesD

Major on the majors folks. The right of a human being to live is not dependent on age, stage of development, location, or circumstances surrounding conception. The abortion supporters love to see us arguing about side issues instead of defending the right to life of the unborn.

reply from: BossMomma

I'm not saying the unborn shouldn't be defended, what I am saying is that your concern should continue from conception to natural death, not from conception to birth. The majority here seem to hold the latter view, very few hold the former.

reply from: nancyu

I'm not saying the unborn shouldn't be defended, what I am saying is that your concern should continue from conception to natural death, not from conception to birth. The majority here seem to hold the latter view, very few hold the former.
What crap.

reply from: micah

I don't think that the 95 cents an hour they pay prisoners is going to be enough to support a child.

reply from: micah

I've wondered what percentage of pro-lifers support universal health care for all children.

reply from: nancyu

I'm not saying the unborn shouldn't be defended, what I am saying is that your concern should continue from conception to natural death, not from conception to birth. The majority here seem to hold the latter view, very few hold the former.
What crap.

reply from: scopia19822

"If you are okay with the morning after pill, why not a very early abortion.
That is why the hard cases are a personal decision after couneling for her and the family."
The MAP is the lesser of the 2 evils. I do not think it should be made available like it is to the general public, only in hospital emergency rooms for rape victims. It prevents the egg from implanting I dont like it at all, but I dislike even more killing an unborn child in an established pregnancy. By the time most of us women find out we are pregnant the child is fully formed now it just needs the time to grow and mature. I cant say I am prolife and yet say I think in certain cases abortion is acceptable. If I am going to be prolife I have to be prolife for all, not just a select group.

reply from: nancyu

You're not saying they should be either.

reply from: faithman

Exactly!!!! But she is saying the fetus killer should be protected.
You're not saying they should be either.

reply from: nancyu

Exactly!!!! But she is saying the fetus killer should be protected.
You're not saying they should be either.
Clearly, that's why she's here.

reply from: faithman

I'm not saying the unborn shouldn't be defended, what I am saying is that your concern should continue from conception to natural death, not from conception to birth. The majority here seem to hold the latter view, very few hold the former.
What crap.
That is your assumption based on thin air. All you are trying to do is take attention aeay from the issue at hand. The borned are not facing legal slaughter now are they? I think life and death issues take presidents over any little discomforts born people may, or may not be experiancing. This forum is supposed to be about the plight of the womb child. Why do you smear it with your assumptions about other issues? You have not even tried to actually ask anyone about their views on the issues you bring up, you mearly project your biased oppinion on them. Thats totally fair, now aint it?

reply from: micah

A lot of Americans have no health insurance, and it can be more than a "little discomfort". In fact, it can be life or death.

reply from: BossMomma

I definately do, children are entitled to health care because they cannot seek it themselves, they can't work or support themselves and not all parents can afford it for them. I pay about $450 a month now for my three kids to get Blue Cross Blue Shield Health Select which is the best plan offered to state employees, however there are many who could never afford that. The children shouldn't have to go uncovered because of poverty.

reply from: scopia19822

"A lot of Americans have no health insurance, and it can be more than a "little discomfort". In fact, it can be life or death. "
I can concur with that. I have no insurance and cant qualify for Medicaid. So my health is getting worse by the day.

reply from: micah

Wait, so you would actually force your 11 your old daughter to go through a pregnancy and bear her rapist's child? That's really sick, man. But, we need people like you. In order to keep the public respecting reproductive freedom, people need to know what freedoms a pro-lifer would take away, and apparently that involves forced birth for even an 11-year old.
I couldn't imagine telling my eleven year old daughter that we are going to an abortionist and he is going to inject a salt solution to poison a baby to death or he will use instruments to reach in and rip out parts of the baby one by one. The horror.
You are a nutjob to do such a thing.
And how does the birth of a happy smiling baby compare unfavorably to the horror and atrocities of ripping that child to pieces?
Abortion is an unspeakable horror...don't go there. Only other murders compare in magnitude to this horrific event. Don't counsel a naive young girl to participate in a horrible, horrible murder of a preborn baby.

reply from: scopia19822

"Wait, so you would actually force your 11 your old daughter to go through a pregnancy and bear her rapist's child? That's really sick, man. But, we need people like you. In order to keep the public respecting reproductive freedom, people need to know what freedoms a pro-lifer would take away, and apparently that involves forced birth for even an 11-year old. '
What would be even more sick is taking her to a butcher and having her child sucked out of her womb or having her uterus scrapped and the child ripped limb from limb possibly jeapordizing her future fertilty. Or giving her the abortion pill and having her bleed heavily and double over in agony from the pain and passing her child into the toilet. That would be more traumatic emotionally than carrying a pregnancy and giving birth with the loving support of her family.

reply from: BossMomma

What would be sick is doing either without the concent of the child. Let the child decide what she wants.

reply from: BossMomma

What would be sick is doing either without the concent of the child. Let the child decide what she wants.

reply from: scopia19822

"What would be sick is doing either without the concent of the child. Let the child decide what she wants."
I would never give consent for my child to have an abortion. I live in an area bordering tn/va and both states mandate parental consent. And if someone took my child across state lines to a state that didnt have consent I would have them charged with kidnapping.

reply from: BossMomma

Then maybe it's good that you don't have a daughter, this will never happen to you.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been.
Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
Another question. If your 11 year old daughter told you she wanted to keep her baby, would you abort her anyway?
bs. your 'statement' is still incorrect.
And my above statement was not BS. Before viability an embryo, zygote or, even a 10 week fetus can spontainiously abort for various reasons. It is potential life.
A viable fetus can die of natural causes as well as I'm sure you know. Your distinction is meaningless. The only distinction is that between willfully ending a life or death by natural cause ie intentional or unintentional.

reply from: scopia19822

"Then maybe it's good that you don't have a daughter, this will never happen to you.''
I dont know how to take this comment. If someone took my son across state lines for any reason without my consent I would
have no qualms about having them charged with kidnapping as well. I had a daughter she is now deceased, but had she lived I would not consent for her to have an abortion, if she came to me and said that she had been raped I would take her to the hospital have her examined and if there is still time give consent for her to have the MAP. If she is pregnant as the result of the rape the well being of her and that of my unborn grandchild are equally important. I will make sure she gets the counsling she needs the prenatal care she needs and the support of those close to her to help her get through the pregnancy. I would not force her to parent the child. That is the choice I would leave up to her, she can parent or surrender the child for adoption, but I will not consent to letting her abort, abortion is murder plain and simple.

reply from: BossMomma

Originally posted by: ChristianLott2
If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been.
Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
Another question. If your 11 year old daughter told you she wanted to keep her baby, would you abort her anyway?
No, if she WANTED to give birth I would let her. If she wanted to keep the baby with her I would let her, if she wanted to adopt I'd only ask that she let the baby be adopted by me or another family member so that the baby wasn't floating around with god knows who.

reply from: BossMomma

Originally posted by: ChristianLott2
If you hadn't complied with your rapist's demands and he murdered your family - would that have been your fault?
Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been.
Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
I blame you partly because you are partly responsible for their death. YOU threw your sperm around out of wedlock and created children then left their mother with the prospect of being a single mother. In case you haven't noticed we single moms are kinda stigmatized, maybe she didn't want that stigma. I did what I thought I had to do to save my family.

reply from: Rosalie

She's already had the worst happen to her. This is nothing in comparison to the trauma you'd force her to endure. Not to mention that she could probably just swallow a pill and have a heavier period. What you are saying is fundie rhetoric, not the truth.
You're using "pro-life" rhetoric to describe abortion and absolutely fail to realize that what you're proposing is, well, monstrous. There's no other way to described an act of anyone, especially a parent, who'd happily force their raped child to continue the pregnancy.

reply from: BossMomma

Take it as it's said. This scenario could never happen to you, it could happen to one of my girls which scares me to death. I know for sure I'd be killing myself a rapist. I'd let my 11 year old tell me what she wants to do after discussing ALL of her options with her if I didn't know quick enough to get her the MAP.

reply from: scopia19822

"She's already had the worst happen to her. This is nothing in comparison to the trauma you'd force her to endure. Not to mention that she could probably just swallow a pill and have a heavier period. What you are saying is fundie rhetoric, not the truth."
So you think abortion is the best solution to a rape pregnancy? It is a permanant solution to a temporary problem. Alot of rape victims, myself included tried to commit suicide after they are assaulted because they dont want to live with reality and often what they percieve as social stigma of the rape. And lets face it alot of narrow minded idiots still think of rape as the victims fault. If she wanted to commit suicide should I just stand back and let her do it? Should I just give her the gun or the pills to do it? No of course not, so why should I let her do the same thing with an abortion ? Both are permanant solutions once acted upon that cant be taken back. Alot of women have opted to have the abortion pill and end up having to go back in and have it done surgically because the abortion was incomplete. That IMHO would be more traumatic to an 11 year old than giving birth.
"You're using "pro-life" rhetoric to describe abortion and absolutely fail to realize that what you're proposing is, well, monstrous. There's no other way to described an act of anyone, especially a parent, who'd happily force their raped child to continue the pregnancy."
That is your opinion Rosalie. Do you think a parent should be obligated to take the daughter for an abortion? What if the little girl doesnt want it? I would not be happy at seeing my 11 year old daughter raped and pregnant as a result, but I would be even more dispaired to see her raped and then raped again by an invasive degrading abortion procedure. There is nothing dignified about laying sread eagle on a cold table feet in stirrups and having some butcher putting a sunction machine in you and turning it on and sucking the life out of her womb or poking and prodding with forceps and removing the child limb by limb or scraping her uterus like in a D&C. All of these possible jeapordizing her future fertilty at the same time.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been.
Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
So do you care to explain to me again how I am responsible for the murder of my children while you get off scot free?
No, if she WANTED to give birth I would let her. If she wanted to keep the baby with her I would let her, if she wanted to adopt I'd only ask that she let the baby be adopted by me or another family member so that the baby wasn't floating around with god knows who.
So the girl is old enough to make a life or death decision about a baby, but she's not old enough to decide who to have sex with in a case of statutory rape like yours.
If an 11 year old can make the choice to kill, surely she can make the choice to have sex?
If an 11 year old can, surely a 16 year old can?
So you were blackmailed, but not really raped?
And you complied with his demands when you could have called the cops and gotten him put in jail. Surely if you are responsible enough to make a decision to abort at 11 years, you're responsible enough to call the cops on a thug at 16 years?
In your case, the law would have been on your side. In my case, the law was against me. I could not call the police. They would have been on her side, just like you are on her side.
People make good and bad decisions no matter what their age. The level of responsibility that you've attributed to even an 11 year old girl though leads me to believe you think you were not raped.
Admit it, there's no 'forced birth' at that or any other age. You're saving the life of an innocent child and that's an honor. Making sure the thug who raped you is put in jail is also an honor. Aborting an 11 year old or a 16 year old is the same as an abortion at any age - it's wrong because it's intentional premeditated homicide (redundancy intended).

reply from: ChristianLott2

and for someone who went off on just how horrible rape babies are then say that you'd want to raise it - does your hypocrisy ever end??

reply from: Rosalie

Really? REALLY?
Jesus Christ, Scopia, you are not listening to me at all.
Once more and slowly, because I guess that's the only way to talk to you:
NO, I think the best solution to a pregnancy, wanted or unwanted, is doing what the woman wants. Not what YOU want her to do, not what I'd prefer her to do ... what SHE wants to do. Forcing anyone, and especially a rape victim to go through a pregnancy against her will is an abhorrent, hateful deed.
No. It is a permanent solution to an unwanted pregnancy that originated from rape and that carries incredible trauma with it.
I have worked with raped victims. I have quite a good insight into their mentality.
This has nothing to do with your proposed action of forcing her to endure an unwanted, incredibly traumatic pregnancy against her will.
You couldn't be more wrong.
I think parents are absolutely obligated to put their child's life and well-being above fetuses.
Then try to find a way how to make it at least bearable and do your best so that she survives the childbirth.
Most 11 year old girls who are not indoctrinated by any propaganda would choose their childhood (or what's left of it) and their lives.
And I'd rather die than see my own child being raped and then in consequence being raped all over again for the following 9 months of an unimaginably traumatic pregnancy that would put her risk at stake and would steal all the remains of her childhood. THAT would be degrading and abhorrent.
Something was done to her, her body and mind against her will (=rape). And you have absolutely no problems with doing MORE against her will. I can't even find proper words to say how disgusting, unbearable and atrocious I find this.
A pregnancy, especially at THIS age, would jeopardize her fertility even more.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
I blame you partly because you are partly responsible for their death. YOU threw your sperm around out of wedlock and created children then left their mother with the prospect of being a single mother. In case you haven't noticed we single moms are kinda stigmatized, maybe she didn't want that stigma.
So it's okay for single mothers to abort their babies but not wedded mothers...
You're just seeking reasons. Feel all the compassion for her in the world.
Hmmm. Taking your tack... You say you were raped for an entire year.. I think you're lying:
It's your fault for seducing him. He just told you that because he knew you liked the kinky stuff. All you needed was some victimized 'noble' excuse to comply with so you could have guilt free sex.
You poor thing. We all know you never enjoyed any of it.
You took advantage of him for a year then got tired of him.
Now don't go cry wolf. This is the exact same maneuver you pulled with me.
You have serious derangement.

reply from: BossMomma

Logically no, but in my scared childlike mind it would've been.
Logically, no....
So when you don't comply with someone's blackmail, you are still not responsible for what they choose to do.
Yet I did not comply to my x-gf's blackmail and you blame me for their murder.
So do you care to explain to me again how I am responsible for the murder of my children while you get off scot free?
No, if she WANTED to give birth I would let her. If she wanted to keep the baby with her I would let her, if she wanted to adopt I'd only ask that she let the baby be adopted by me or another family member so that the baby wasn't floating around with god knows who.
So the girl is old enough to make a life or death decision about a baby, but she's not old enough to decide who to have sex with in a case of statutory rape like yours.
If an 11 year old can make the choice to kill, surely she can make the choice to have sex?
If an 11 year old can, surely a 16 year old can?
So you were blackmailed, but not really raped?
And you complied with his demands when you could have called the cops and gotten him put in jail. Surely if you are responsible enough to make a decision to abort at 11 years, you're responsible enough to call the cops on a thug at 16 years?
In your case, the law would have been on your side. In my case, the law was against me. I could not call the police. They would have been on her side, just like you are on her side.
People make good and bad decisions no matter what their age. The level of responsibility that you've attributed to even an 11 year old girl though leads me to believe you think you were not raped.
Admit it, there's no 'forced birth' at that or any other age. You're saving the life of an innocent child and that's an honor. Making sure the thug who raped you is put in jail is also an honor. Aborting an 11 year old or a 16 year old is the same as an abortion at any age - it's wrong because it's intentional premeditated homicide (redundancy intended).
No one died as a result of my compliance, someone did die as a result of your refusal to be responsible. I was a child, you were an adult. Forcing a child to give birth because it would make YOU happy, never mind her thoughts on the matter is FORCED BIRTH. Your logic, or lack thereof is staggeringly ridiculous. Furthermore your situation has nothing to do with mine. You chose to have sex, chose to reproduce carelessly, chose to leave the mother on her own just because your first marriage failed. What choice does a child have when a grown ass man rapes her, inseminates her then her barbaric parent forces her to carry to term. You're life went awry because of your choices, where is the child's choice?

reply from: scopia19822

Rosalie, you just dont get it. You are so wrapped up in the culture of death, you cannot understand why a mother would not want or allow her daughter to be subjected to a procedure that would destroy an innocent human life. You can be disgusted with me all you want , but it is more disgusting how you think abortion is the easy solution to any crisis pregnancy. You may have worked with rape victims, but I have more insight as a rape victim to what there mentaliity is. No.. I am not a victim I no longer let my rapists have that power over me I am survivor. I could not have lived with myself knowing I killed a child and I could not live with myself knowing that I was a party to the murder of my unborn grandchild. I have a thing called a conscinece and my consceince dictates that abortion no matter what is wrong. You have one of them dont you a conscience?

reply from: Rosalie

No, you're right, I don't understand why a mother would force her daughter to continue her pregnancy against her will. How a mother of all people could add to the unspeakable terror of rape by adding more terror, more force and calling it the right thing. It's an act of unspeakable evil. And I don't want to understand that, ever, because that would make me just as evil as you. And I couldn't live with myself if I was.

reply from: scopia19822

"And I don't want to understand that, ever, because that would make me just as evil as you. And I couldn't live with myself if I was."
Just like I dont want to understand your twisted proabortion feminist world view. I am evil now am I ? Not today I am not my pitchfork is being repaired and I lost my tail in a farming accident.

reply from: JRH

Man Lott this is nasty even for yo

reply from: ChristianLott2

Fight fire with fire.

reply from: scopia19822

"Man Lott this is nasty even for you"
I agree, but I must now proceed and respond the original post. Boss it isnt a matter of how long or how many times a woman is raped. Of who outraped who. Some people can suffer long term rape/abuse and are so reseliant they come out with issues, but once they work through them they are ok. You have others who may have only had it happen once and thats more than enough, but they are not so resilant and even with intense threapy never fully recover. Each person is different.

reply from: AMKR

You guys are all retarded. I kill so many babies with rusty coat hangers, you don't even know. YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WICKED *****!!!!!!!!!
KGP - HATRED!
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/ordernow.gif[/img][/url]
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[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/kgpbanner.gif[/img][/url]
KGP - Hatred
Release Date: January 2009
Presented by Mentality Records, Kill Musick, SKR
Pro-Pressed
This release is sold as a 2 disc set.
Preorder only as a bundle. Hatred Vol 1 and Hatred Vol 2
Vol 1 contains ALL unreleased, never heard by anyone but those affiliated.
Vol 2 contains releases that may have been heard on Kill Musick Radio or compilations, but have never been released on cd. These tracks are also in its fullest form. With most of them containing unheard Verses, Lyrics and Choruses. The tracks have also been completely Remixed and Mastered.
Together the cd's contain OVER 2 HOURS of unprecedented material.
HATRED Features production from Stitch Mouth, SicKTanicK Tha Souless, Jason "JP" Pearl, BADMiND, KGP, & more...

Vol 1
1. Dead at the Bar
2. Blood Spill
3. Abomination
4. Master
5. Fight you All
6. Days til Suicide
7. Darkness
8. G Says
9. Everybody Hates Me
10. Blame it on the Devil
11. Kingz & Queenz featuring Destiny, Sicktanick, Razakel
12. Red Cross
13. Rebellion (Cult 1000)

Vol 2
14. Hatred
15. God Damn
16. Premonitions
17. Wickedest
18. Musick Mosh
19. Cellar *****
20. Dissorder
21. Mental Picturez featuring Destiny, Razakel
22. Convertible Coffin
23. Turn up the Heat Remix Featuring Stitch Mouth
24. Black Out
25. Drunk and Disorder
26. I found _ _ _
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/iscoming.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/hatredkgp.gif[/img][/url]
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[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/eyes.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/doghatred.gif[/img][/url]
ALL HAIL UNGOD!!! ITZ KUMMIN'! HATRED!!!!!!!!! SUPPORT KILLMUSICK.COM, K G MOTHER *****IN' P & SERIAL KILLIN' RECORDZ!!!!!! ONLY 3 YEARS LEFT TILL THE END OF THE WORLD. 2012.
www.myspace.com/kgpmusick
www.killmusick.com
www.themusickstore.com
www.skrwillrise.com
www.myspace.com/skrecords[
POST BANNERS EVERYWHERE:
[url]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/ordernow.htm[/url]
The more you support the more chance that HATRED doesn't get delayed!!!
Show a WICKED*****legend the respect he deserves and get the word out there! PROMOTE & SUPPORT!!!
-AMKR (of JUNCTION: OMEGA & KILLMUSICK.COM

reply from: AMKR

I am a self acclaimed coat hanger abortion doctor.
MADDDDD 12 year old girls come to me and ask me for my treatment.
I find that a wooden kabob stick (sharpened) works wayyyyyyyy better than a coat hanger though.
I like to eat the fetuses after they are removed from the womb.
Its very delicious and healthy. Best eaten with side of carrots and nutsack.
Douchebags.
KGP - HATRED!!!!!!
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/ordernow.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/moretime.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/mouth.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/kgphatred.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/kgpbanner.gif[/img][/url]
KGP - Hatred
Release Date: January 2009
Presented by Mentality Records, Kill Musick, SKR
Pro-Pressed
This release is sold as a 2 disc set.
Preorder only as a bundle. Hatred Vol 1 and Hatred Vol 2
Vol 1 contains ALL unreleased, never heard by anyone but those affiliated.
Vol 2 contains releases that may have been heard on Kill Musick Radio or compilations, but have never been released on cd. These tracks are also in its fullest form. With most of them containing unheard Verses, Lyrics and Choruses. The tracks have also been completely Remixed and Mastered.
Together the cd's contain OVER 2 HOURS of unprecedented material.
HATRED Features production from Stitch Mouth, SicKTanicK Tha Souless, Jason "JP" Pearl, BADMiND, KGP, & more...

Vol 1
1. Dead at the Bar
2. Blood Spill
3. Abomination
4. Master
5. Fight you All
6. Days til Suicide
7. Darkness
8. G Says
9. Everybody Hates Me
10. Blame it on the Devil
11. Kingz & Queenz featuring Destiny, Sicktanick, Razakel
12. Red Cross
13. Rebellion (Cult 1000)

Vol 2
14. Hatred
15. God Damn
16. Premonitions
17. Wickedest
18. Musick Mosh
19. Cellar *****
20. Dissorder
21. Mental Picturez featuring Destiny, Razakel
22. Convertible Coffin
23. Turn up the Heat Remix Featuring Stitch Mouth
24. Black Out
25. Drunk and Disorder
26. I found _ _ _
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/iscoming.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/hatredkgp.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/*****DL.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/eyes.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.killmusick.com/store/proddetail.php?prod=kgphatred6][img]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/doghatred.gif[/img][/url]
ALL HAIL UNGOD!!! ITZ KUMMIN'! HATRED!!!!!!!!! SUPPORT KILLMUSICK.COM, K G MOTHER *****IN' P & SERIAL KILLIN' RECORDZ!!!!!! ONLY 3 YEARS LEFT TILL THE END OF THE WORLD. 2012.
[url]www.myspace.com/kgpmusick[/url]
[url]www.killmusick.com[/url]
[url]www.themusickstore.com[/url]
[url]www.skrwillrise.com[/url]
[url]www.myspace.com/skrecords[/url]
POST BANNERS EVERYWHERE:
[url]http://www.killmusick.com/kgp/ordernow.htm[/url]
The more you support the more chance that HATRED doesn't get delayed!!!
Show a WICKED*****legend the respect he deserves and get the word out there! PROMOTE & SUPPORT!!!
-AMKR (of JUNCTION: OMEGA & KILLMUSICK.COM

reply from: micah

Can you understand why people are really fearful about turning over their reproductive rights? They are so many people like ChristianLott.

reply from: galen

As a person who was raped and kept her child, and as a healthcare professional, and as one who has been in many therapy groups i will add this food for thought. when a girl is raped and undergoes an abortion she is subject to many tyhings, trauma from the violence, on going self esteem issues and the trauma and psychological effects of the abgortion, which are moreoften than not viewed as a second assault. she will then get to grow up and face the fact that she paricipated in the death of another... whatever her intentions it almost always comes around to that. death is a permanent condition and not a mistake that onecan simply take back.
Based on what i know and have experienced, if my daughter should undergo such horrific circumstances, i would let the pregnancy play out, deliver her by cesarian , and either keep the baby or adopt it out based on her mindset at the time of delivery. She would recieve the very best of counseling and care for as long as she should need it. She would also have the added strength of knowing that she DID not participate in the act of controll so very much like the one that was forced upon her.

reply from: scopia19822

Galen you are right on top of things. May I ask how old your daughter is now. You are a brave women for enduring the trauma of being violated and then carrying , birthing, and raising your child. You would still be as brave if you had chosen adoption.

reply from: galen

my son was the one i gave birth to after a rape... he is 18...the daughter we just adopted is 4 months...

reply from: scopia19822

Im sorry Mary! You are still a brave woman and Im sure he is a fine young man.

reply from: galen

No problem!
We think he is wonderful!

reply from: sheri

Well said Galen, Thank you. I would worry about the child in that horrible circumstance seeing the body of her dead child, or later on learning what an abortiondoes to a baby. I would think she may feel doubly wronged.

reply from: ChristianLott2

you tell me butcher.
a pre born has no choice either.
It's really amazing to find out when someone blackmails you, you are not responsible for what they choose to do. But when someone blackmails me it's all my fault.
You are a hypocrite.
She lied to me then blackmailed me.
You were lied to and blackmailed.
There's no difference.
Attempting to force me to marry her through blackmail is just as sinister as coaxing sex from you through blackmail. No one died in your scenario because he was probably just lying to you anyway. You got off easy imo. You keep hanging the murder of my children on me and I'll just keep faulting you for that rape and being stupid enough to believe him for a year. But you probably liked it and wanted to believe it - because there's NEVER been a young girl who's seduced an older man.
Reminds me of this girl telling me she had sex with seven virgins. rofl. How can you tell a guy is a virgin?? Stupid.
I think you're just lying anyway. Just like I'm lying about my children, right?
Was this guy ever brought to justice? Ever press charges? Or are you still afraid he's going to murder your family?
Please. You are full of it.

reply from: micah

Okay, I'm not going to touch your decision for your daughter, but let me ask you this.
Can't you admit that it would be wrong to enact legislation that would force other 11 year olds in the same situation to carry her rapist's fetus to term and then deliver by cesarian?

reply from: ChristianLott2

Well you weren't around when she called me a liar and blamed me for the murder of my children when I plead for their lives.
Nobody was murdered in her scenario so I don't see how what I have to say could ever be as vicious as what she says about me and my children.
You're not a very bright one anyway. I don't know why I waste my time talking to you pro aborts. Probably just like proving you hypocrites wrong.
I don't like talking like that but I'd be a fool to sit here and take abuse like she gives and not give a little back.
Reproductive rights? Were are a man's reproductive rights? Where's the child's rights?
It's all about making women into gods, even if it kills them and their children. You people are sick.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Abortion is such a kind and merciful thing. Pregnancy is so horrible.

reply from: carolemarie

Nobody has said that at all.
What is being talked about is an 11 year old girl or an eight year old child who was raped.
This is a horrible situtation, and one that is enormously complicated. I think all children who survive sexual assualt should recieve free counseling along with their families. And before abortion or continuing the pregnancies is decided, mandatory counseling is needed. This would be a hard situtation.
Sometimes abortion is the lesser of evils.
To have a baby at 11 may be too much for a child to take.
She counts too.

reply from: micah

Your children were murdered in front of you?! I hope they caught the guy. I'm sorry to hear that and am sure you miss them a lot.

reply from: Banned Member

Of course I've heard of pregnant children, and I think it is an extremely sad event in any situation. My daughter is only 6 months, but if she were to get pregnant at 10, I would try my best to get her to get an abortion. Mainly because I wouldn't want to gamble my daughters life or emotional well being for a 'unique journey'.
And I don't think that grandparents should be forced to be responsible for their offspring's offspring. If my older daughter, say of 16, got pregnant & did not want an abortion, that would be fine with me. I would be proud of her. But I would still try to show her that adoption would be the best way to go for her. If she adamantly wanted to keep the child, I would start helping her to get out on her own. I'm not going to raise my grandchildren & no one should have to.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Holy cr@p, you are a pro-choicer! Killing a baby is not a lesser evil to carrying a baby!!! Killing a baby is a horrible experience that no eleven year old child should be counseled into; that is the worst possible advice! Teach a kid to kill a baby you say? You are a wicked child-killer carolmarie. Faithman was right, you are an unrepentant three time babykiller. You recommend babykilling to others. You say babykilling isn't so bad; its not like killing an older child. You say killing a baby may be the best thing a young pregnant person can do. It's not good for the girl killing the baby. The horror! The atrocity! - of counseling a girl to kill her baby. You are evil carolmarie. You are Pro-Choice!
Carolmarie is guilty as charged. Her own words condemn her.

reply from: Banned Member

We've been over this before, though you never respond to me. There is no way of telling how many abortions are from rape as many rapes go unreported. You can pretend that your statistics are hardcore facts all you want to, but it doesn't make it so.

reply from: Banned Member

Most cases of abortion are by mature women who have been prosmiscous who simply want to be rid of the "accidential" baby that resulted.
The rape and resulting pregnancy of an eleven year old is a less common occurrence. However, there are a couple of major points.
1) The 11 year old child is below the age of accountability and cannot make her own informed decisions based on properly weighing life experiences and good judgment. Therefore, it is important that adults make sure she doesn't make the mistake of killing her own baby. Adults cannot permit abortion, they must make responsible decisions for the 11 year old girl.
2) The Bible says a man that forcefully rapes a woman/child is under the same obligations to the mother and child "as if he was married". Therefore, a judge must make sure the rapist is responsible for all of the mother and baby's financial needs. The man is responsible for the baby's expenses until age 21. The man is responsible for all of the eleven year old girl's expenses until her death or until she is married, whichever comes first. The rapist should be incarcerated if he refuses to take care of his financial responsibilities. Work release should be available.
So a child who doesn't really understand what pregnancy or childbirth is should be forced to gestate and go through the pain of childbirth, risk dying even? What about her mental well being, does that matter to you at all?
Let me ask this, since I know how much most of you dig showing your supposed abortion films & photos; Do you show a pregnant child a video of an actually real life baby being delivered, screaming, bloody mother & all, or are you afraid it would terrify them and put too much stress on them during their pregnancy.
The second part of your posts is just ridiculous. Most women or girls would want nothing to do with their rapists, they damn sure wouldn't want a penny from them. It also seems the way you worded that is that the man should only be incarcerated if he refused to pay. By that way of thinking men could just forcefully spread their seed anywhere they wanted & women couldn't do a damn thing about it. Do you think the 'fathers' of these rape babies should be able to have a legal right in the childs life?

reply from: carolemarie

I am not prochoice. I just am okay with rape, incest and life of the mother exceptions. I think that those cases are really really really different than elective abortion.
I do not counsel women to have abortions! I am not for abortion.
I don't think abortion and killing a born child are the same thing. Because they are not.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Holy cr@p, you are a pro-choicer! Killing a baby is not a lesser evil to carrying a baby!!! Killing a baby is a horrible experience that no eleven year old child should be counseled into; that is the worst possible advice! Teach a kid to kill a baby you say? You are a wicked child-killer carolmarie. Faithman was right, you are an unrepentant three time babykiller. You recommend babykilling to others. You say babykilling isn't so bad; its not like killing an older child. You say killing a baby may be the best thing a young pregnant person can do. It's not good for the girl killing the baby. The horror! The atrocity! - of counseling a girl to kill her baby. You are evil carolmarie. You are Pro-Choice!
Carolmarie is guilty as charged. Her own words condemn her.

reply from: faithman

Most cases of abortion are by mature women who have been prosmiscous who simply want to be rid of the "accidential" baby that resulted.
The rape and resulting pregnancy of an eleven year old is a less common occurrence. However, there are a couple of major points.
1) The 11 year old child is below the age of accountability and cannot make her own informed decisions based on properly weighing life experiences and good judgment. Therefore, it is important that adults make sure she doesn't make the mistake of killing her own baby. Adults cannot permit abortion, they must make responsible decisions for the 11 year old girl.
2) The Bible says a man that forcefully rapes a woman/child is under the same obligations to the mother and child "as if he was married". Therefore, a judge must make sure the rapist is responsible for all of the mother and baby's financial needs. The man is responsible for the baby's expenses until age 21. The man is responsible for all of the eleven year old girl's expenses until her death or until she is married, whichever comes first. The rapist should be incarcerated if he refuses to take care of his financial responsibilities. Work release should be available.
So a child who doesn't really understand what pregnancy or childbirth is should be forced to gestate and go through the pain of childbirth, risk dying even? What about her mental well being, does that matter to you at all?
Let me ask this, since I know how much most of you dig showing your supposed abortion films & photos; Do you show a pregnant child a video of an actually real life baby being delivered, screaming, bloody mother & all, or are you afraid it would terrify them and put too much stress on them during their pregnancy.
The second part of your posts is just ridiculous. Most women or girls would want nothing to do with their rapists, they damn sure wouldn't want a penny from them. It also seems the way you worded that is that the man should only be incarcerated if he refused to pay. By that way of thinking men could just forcefully spread their seed anywhere they wanted & women couldn't do a damn thing about it. Do you think the 'fathers' of these rape babies should be able to have a legal right in the childs life?
The evil scum bag pro-abort monster who rapes little girls should be put to death. Every father should have the legal right to dispatch such a low life dog as he sees fit. 12 gauge enema works for me. Of course base ball bat is a little more personal.

reply from: Banned Member

I was talking about the rapist who fathered a child as a result of his rape...not the father of a raped child. If my daughter were raped I am sure my husband would kill the bastard who did it. If he didn't I would.
On a side not, you seem to enjoy fantasizing about killing people an awful lot. Have you ever been to see a councilor? You may want to consider.

reply from: 4given

Disgusting. When does her "choice" become worthy? Is it only at your discretion?

reply from: faithman

I was talking about the rapist who fathered a child as a result of his rape...not the father of a raped child. If my daughter were raped I am sure my husband would kill the bastard who did it. If he didn't I would.
On a side not, you seem to enjoy fantasizing about killing people an awful lot. Have you ever been to see a councilor? You may want to consider.
In case your pro-death eyes missed it, I was talking about the rapist. They should be put to death.

reply from: 4given

Whether or not you would kill your own child or not, seems to be pretty significant that you would post in favor of other people killing their offspring off. You may want to consider counseling yourself death monger. Desiring to legally kill a defenseless and innocent being is quite troubling.

reply from: carolemarie

If it happen to my daughter, I would do everything I can to help her cope. She would be the priority.
If having the baby was physically possible, and she wanted to do that, we would. 'But if she was opposed and distraught, I would do what was best for her. She would be the priority.

reply from: Banned Member

Disgusting. When does her "choice" become worthy? Is it only at your discretion?
Did you bother reading while you emboldened it? It would ultimately be her choice, I wouldn't force her to do anything. I would help her make an informed decision. But I am sure at some point she would ask what I think she should do & I would tell her & I would tell her why. Because I love her & would not want to risk losing her for anything in the world & because her future happiness means everything to me.

reply from: smom

Galen
Im so touched by your spirit. You countered the world in your decisions and proved it could be done with love. Your son, is YOUR son by blood, and your daughter is your daughter by choice!!! How awesome is THAT?!!! However they come into our lives they are still gifts to be treasured and cherished! I swear the spirit was showing right then and there when you spoke your testimony.
Im honored to make your acquaintance.
and Scopia i agree with you on what would be done.. im just not sure of this drug. Its still new on the market. I'd have to do my homework on that one, In the best interests of my daughters. ( Sorry, im just a bit skeptical with the whole thing without time to digest what is done.)
Im hurt to see the proaborts bastardizing a perfectly healthy baby with the stigma that doggs a word- a mostly one time event- that is NOT the person.. Like the media that gleams onto a person's malicious way of death or treatment.. and labels them with malicious words .... with the words of their death and not who they were... Such as one who dies in a car wreck or what have you. Its all about creating that SOMETHING that label that gets your attention. Thankfully our worth and value is much more than words.
I would do what is medically necessary for my daughter, always have, always will. why do they insist on us not caring for our children's health is beyond me. If it were a problem for her very existence It would ultimately be a triage situation. and Hopefully the baby will make it through the ordeal. I remember my cousin having to make a heart wrenching choice during her pregnancy. She was faced with breast cancer. And since she was pregnant the tumors were growing at a phenomenal pace. She didnt want to risk her pregnancy but it was quickly becoming life or death. She ultimately had to have her baby EARLY at five months and have a double masectomy an hour after birth. Unfortunately the doctors did not remove all the cancer from the lymph node region and it ultimately overtook her. She couragiously fought for four years and raised her daughter. She sadly has passed away. Her children are very much loved. We all face roadblocks in life. And the so called plan in life isnt always how we think it will be. I tell you of my cousin because her daughter was very healthy and if it came to it I would probably go that route for my daughter if the pregnancy was too much for her to handle. Of course, I would seek treatment for her. But a baby is not that big until later.
I remembered of a girl who got pregnant and was proud of it. Not that I condone the behavior, but it happens and has happened for centuries before us.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/Girl-pregnant-at-12-Five.192560.jp

http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/politics/boy-charged-over-11-year-old-pregnant-girl-$434283.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/4764417.stm
http://www.fassit.co.uk/pregnant_11yr_old.htmhttp://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17067634&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=pregnant----at-just-11-name_page.html

the one thing that comes with these sites is the idea that all of our 11 year olds are innocent from the now decades of pro sexual media and that are going to withstand the pressures of what is plastered in their faces on a daily basis. Its sad that it happens, but yet it can and will happen. (Not that I am referring to the girl who is raped and her circumstances...) Im pointing out that pregnancies at that age happen and carry through. And whatever did they do about it centuries ago? And i feel bad for this young mum who very much wants to keep her baby and the hords of groups that are giving her grief. She needs guidance not their punishments and slander.
She needs that TV show to whip up a home for her... thats what she needs.. I firmly feel it too. They made their money raping the public with their ideals of sex,sex, sex.. its time they addie up with the accountability!
Again, Galen. you are a very honorable woman! peace be with you.

reply from: Teresa18

There is no so-called consent. Justice Blackmun even says so himself in Roe vs. Wade:
IX - A
Like I said above, Justice Blackmun disagrees with you. Roe vs. Wade is the basis of the abortion decision. If the unborn child is a person, he/she is to be protected.
Not all people are capable of "duties", nor do all people have "duties".
I contend that denying you a kidney is not me directly causing your death. You die from whatever caused your kidneys to fail, not from me. Removal of a kidney is an unnatural process in that it involves doctors and surgery. Pregnancy is a natural process the body is designed for, and the human race could not survive without it. If I give you a kidney, I lose something. In pregnancy, a female loses nothing, not even the uterus that the child was carried in. The unborn child has a God-given, Constitutional, inalienable right to life that would be directly ended in abortion. As pointed out above, the right to life of a person supercedes "privacy" and temporary discomfort.
I'm Catholic, and that would not be permissible unless the woman's life was at stake.
So is and does abortion.
She could die during the abortion. I support the doctors doing what they need to do to protect the life of the mother.
Look at the links I posted earlier on psychological effects. "Fast and easy" doesn't mean a person is not being killed. A young girl may one day look at fetal development and abortion pictures and be horrified.
Look up the definition of rape. The child is not raping the woman. The rapist is knowingly guilty of a crime. The child is an innocent victim himself/herself. Killing the rapist would be killing an aggresor. Killing the child would be taking the rapists aggression and using it to kill an innocent victim.
I would be logically inconsistent if I said the unborn child was a person but then said that he/she doesn't have the right to life - meaning life is only conditional on the circumstances of conception, location, and development.

reply from: Teresa18

Ditto, dear. How can I describe someone who supports this 1.3 million times a year?
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures.html

Shame on me for not wanting to kill an innocent victim of a crime.
I'm sure you could go on, though, because words like that are probably a large contingent of your vocabulary.
Would you like to go tell them and their offspring that the latter ought to have been aborted?
All new lives are miracles. Subjective and temporary feelings by those involved doesn't change the inherent value of human life.

reply from: Teresa18

Rape makes up approximately 1% of abortions. Unfortunately, there are 13,000 abortions due to rape if you take 1% of 1.3 million. It's sad to know that there are so many rapes in this country, and this doesn't even include the women who keep their children.

reply from: Teresa18

Do you show her a video of an abortion before you take her?

reply from: Teresa18

No one opposes focusing efforts on saving the mother if her life is at stake. However, why are you against abortion? Is it because you believe that the life in the womb is a person?

reply from: Teresa18

You say you believe the life is a person. If the life is a person, does he/she not have a God-given, Constitutional, inalienable right to life? Why do the circumstances regarding conception, location, and development warrant that right being taken away?

reply from: Rosalie

Like I said before, it's amusing that you should use the word feminist as an insult. I suppose you think that is intelligent?
I don't know if you are evil. I hope you're not. What you are proposing, however, is evil. The idea that there are parents who blatantly disregard their children's health and well-being is absolutely frightening. It's like those Jehovah's Witnesses who'd rather have their kid die than allow a blood transufion.
They, like you, put their own ideology above their children's health and well-being. And to me, that's wrong; it's ultimately wrong and inexcusable.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Catch the guy? You can probably call him up right now and schedual an appointment for your own.

reply from: ChristianLott2

.. and you believe abortion is a kind and merciful thing. Either abortion is good or abortion is bad. It's not complicated carole.
You and you psychiatrists can go abort all the teens you want. You still won't be helping a got-damn thing.
Now both of you are responsible for murder. I'm sure that's an easier thing to handle.
.. so it doesn't matter if she and an 11 year old boy agreed to have sex, you still want to abort any 11 year old who gets pregnant, regardless.
She does count too, that's why I wouldn't abort her child.
You are so utterly sick but don't worry. You and the majority of people think this way. That's why abortion has stayed legal. Keep making exceptions. Nothing will change.
Ignore them all carole. You are a fregin saint for abortion.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

GodsLaw -
"Most cases of abortion are by mature women who have been prosmiscous who simply want to be rid of the "accidential" baby that resulted."
Really? Care to provide some statistics to back that up? From what others have posted, it appears that most abortions are done on teenagers who were careless or unlucky. Promiscuity has little to do with it.
"The rape and resulting pregnancy of an eleven year old is a less common occurrence. However, there are a couple of major points.
1) The 11 year old child is below the age of accountability and cannot make her own informed decisions based on properly weighing life experiences and good judgment. Therefore, it is important that adults make sure she doesn't make the mistake of killing her own baby. Adults cannot permit abortion, they must make responsible decisions for the 11 year old girl."
Adults must make the decision for their young daughters, especially if the children are 11 years old. That is way too young for such an overwhelmingly adult decision. The child should be examined to make sure her body can carry the pregnancy safely and if she is capable physically and mentally of doing so, she should have the baby and give it up for adoption.
"2) The Bible says a man that forcefully rapes a woman/child is under the same obligations to the mother and child "as if he was married". Therefore, a judge must make sure the rapist is responsible for all of the mother and baby's financial needs. The man is responsible for the baby's expenses until age 21. The man is responsible for all of the eleven year old girl's expenses until her death or until she is married, whichever comes first. The rapist should be incarcerated if he refuses to take care of his financial responsibilities. Work release should be available."
Few rapists are caught and brought to justice. It is impossible for a man to support the child he created if he is unknown.

reply from: JRH

He did not say that. If you read the entire decision the court decided something in the case of an abortion that was chosen by a woman who had chosen to have sex-that is different from rape. Aside from that, I don't care as what he says does not determine what I think morality is. HE ALSO THINKS A FETUS IS NOT A PERSON. So he disagrees with you. Want to accept his decision?
But they are not persons per that decision, and rape cases have never been ruled on. Different issue.
False, all people have the duty I mentioned.
A fetus is in the role of a man who is trying to take your kidney by force. You apparently think that one doe snot have to give a kidney. Well, then why does one HAVE to support a fetus? The fact it is already using the woman is not a reason. This fact makes the fetus analogous to a man already trying to steal your kidney.
So is sex. Does that make rape ok?
She loses her time, her body is changed by hormones, her vagina will stretch forever, and she may lose her ability to bear children in the future. These problems are much worse for an 11 year old than an adult. Don't forget, also, that RAPE takes nothing away from a woman.
No, it does not. Personal rights are paramount.
Abortion early in the pregnancy is very safe. Very very very safe. For a girl that young it is much safer than giving birth.
I doubt it
[Not always. What if he is sleepwalking and is not aware of what he is doing. Does this mean she can not kill him because he is not aware of what he is doing?
Using someone without consent makes it non innocent.
Good. You will help my cause.

reply from: ChristianLott2

hmm. looks like you've contradicted yourself yet again.
You almost had me believing you were pro life but.. get over yourself and stop lying to everyone.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

hmm. looks like you've contradicted yourself yet again.
You almost had me believing you were pro life but.. get over yourself and stop lying to everyone.
Eleven-year-olds who did NOT give consent to sex (who were raped) could have far more psychological damage from continuing the pregnancy and giving birth than from having an early abortion. The parents should have her examined by a team of physicians and psychiatrists before making a decision.
I am in favor of adoption in this case, but not at the expense of turning the child into a psychological mess for the rest of her life. It would depend on her maturity and mental makeup.

reply from: BossMomma

Man Lott this is nasty even for yo
Lott is just a b i t chy excuse for a man whore and should get himself a vasectomy, he'd better serve women as a sex toy as he is clearly not father material. God forbid he should ever father a daughter, she'd likely grow up psychologically abused.

reply from: faithman

Man Lott this is nasty even for yo
Lott is just a b i t chy excuse for a man whore and should get himself a vasectomy, he'd better serve women as a sex toy as he is clearly not father material. God forbid he should ever father a daughter, she'd likely grow up psychologically abused.
And your past history makes you the resident expert on choosing father material? Just what is the father you choose for your children doing? Oh thats right, the pro-death scum ran out on ya huh? SSSSSOOOOO before you start running your man hating mouth, maybe you ought to get a mirror, and fix your choosing ability before you start pontificating as to who would make a good father. Your ability to make a good choice about father prospects is obviously broken. When you actually choose a good father, then come back and talk to us.

reply from: galen

__________________________________________________________
saving a life is never wrong, you can not opt out of the taking of a life once that taking has become and act committed. there for shouldn't we err on the side of caution and save the child and counsel the rape victim. You can always provide therapy for the mother, you can not provide therapy for a corpse.

reply from: BossMomma

__________________________________________________________
saving a life is never wrong, you can not opt out of the taking of a life once that taking has become and act committed. there for shouldn't we err on the side of caution and save the child and counsel the rape victim. You can always provide therapy for the mother, you can not provide therapy for a corpse.
Keep that in mind should the 11 year old rape victim die during child birth.

reply from: galen

At 11 her risk of dying during abortion / pregnancy/ or natrual birth are about the same. She has a 10% greater chance of making it through an anesthetised cesarean. It seems she has a greater chance of DIC during ANY form of abortion however.. her clotting systems and her immune response being immature.

reply from: BossMomma

Where is your proof of this?

reply from: galen

In the literature...
Where is YOUR proof that she would be better off killing her child?

reply from: BossMomma

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/9/1/91707.shtml

reply from: galen

point 1 ... very old research done on women who were of normal child bearing age.
point 2 ... we are speaking about an 11 yo girl who is not physiologically finished. her anatomy, clotting, immune response , pituitary response etc are MUCH diffrent than a fully grown female. Its a whole diffrent set of rules.
the article was written to underscore the cesarean vs natural childbirth in mothers with no know risk factors.. those so call convienence births.. planned schedualed etc..they have no bearingon this argument at the comparisons could be akin to apples and pineapples.

reply from: BossMomma

That makes no sense, something I've come to expect from radicals. If a grown woman triples her risk of death by c-section despite the fact that she is healthy, a child would face an even greater risk. But you don't care about that do you? You would rather see an unborn child live and a born one die than the other way around.

reply from: BossMomma

Here is a more recent study on c-sections
http://wellpreserved.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/the-risk-of-death-is-also-is-dramatically-higher-for-c-sections-than-natural-births/

reply from: LiberalChiRo

According to that logic, Augustine has absolutely NO ground to stand on when discussing how people should have relationships and/or when they should have sex, since he has had neither and has no experience. But I'm sure you'll say otherwise.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yeah, until I see proof, there's no way I'm going to believe that an 11 year old has a healthier chance via c-section than an early-term (before 15 weeks) abortion.

reply from: BossMomma

According to that logic, Augustine has absolutely NO ground to stand on when discussing how people should have relationships and/or when they should have sex, since he has had neither and has no experience. But I'm sure you'll say otherwise.
Ya know Lib, I have fboy on ignore so I don't have to see his verbal excrement..

reply from: LiberalChiRo

According to that logic, Augustine has absolutely NO ground to stand on when discussing how people should have relationships and/or when they should have sex, since he has had neither and has no experience. But I'm sure you'll say otherwise.
Ya know Lib, I have fboy on ignore so I don't have to see his verbal excrement..
Hahah XD Sorry!! I don't have him on ignore just so I can report his abuse.

reply from: BossMomma

According to that logic, Augustine has absolutely NO ground to stand on when discussing how people should have relationships and/or when they should have sex, since he has had neither and has no experience. But I'm sure you'll say otherwise.
Ya know Lib, I have fboy on ignore so I don't have to see his verbal excrement..
Hahah XD Sorry!! I don't have him on ignore just so I can report his abuse.
Frankly I don't think our moderator gives a damn my dear. He just got rid of Vexing because she was pro-choice. I've begun to see just how deep the prejudice runs on this forum. It's just about as deep as the ignorance and the hatred and the bigotry.

reply from: xnavy

Would you allow the hospital to give your daughter the morning-after pill, which does
NOT affect an existing pregnancy?
probably i would , becuase i am not catholic, yess,

reply from: faithman

According to that logic, Augustine has absolutely NO ground to stand on when discussing how people should have relationships and/or when they should have sex, since he has had neither and has no experience. But I'm sure you'll say otherwise.
Ya know Lib, I have fboy on ignore so I don't have to see his verbal excrement..
Hahah XD Sorry!! I don't have him on ignore just so I can report his abuse.
Frankly I don't think our moderator gives a damn my dear. He just got rid of Vexing because she was pro-choice. I've begun to see just how deep the prejudice runs on this forum. It's just about as deep as the ignorance and the hatred and the bigotry.
Then quit being hatful and bigotted, and it will clear up!

reply from: RiverMoonLady

If I had a daughter in that situation, I would definitely take her to the ER, have a rape exam done and ask them to give her the MAP. I'm not Catholic either, but I believe it is best to prevent a possible pregnancy.

reply from: BossMomma

If I had a daughter in that situation, I would definitely take her to the ER, have a rape exam done and ask them to give her the MAP. I'm not Catholic either, but I believe it is best to prevent a possible pregnancy.
I agree, problem is the MAP only works if you take it within 3 days. If you find out about the rape later it'd be too late.

reply from: CharlesD

How many times are children raped by strangers? I've always thought that most of the child rapes are from someone who knows the child, like a relative, and if that's the case the rape is not as likely to be reported within three days.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier. The longer we sit here and debate whether or not a pregnant 11 year old should be allowed to abort, the longer we aren't discussing the real crux of this issue. If you take the total number of rape pregnancy abortions in a year and then you separate out of those the number of mothers that are that young, what number would you be left with? That number would be far less than 1%, a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of abortions done. While we're arguing about that small percentage, we're not addressing the completely elective abortions that are the most disturbing of all, the ones done because a baby would be an inconvenience. The person who started this thread no doubt wants us to focus on the hard cases and spend all of our energy debating those kind of cases than talking about the other cases. All of the hard cases amount for such a small percentage of abortions that if you were to allow the exceptions (a different topic that we can debate at another time) you would be outlawing over 98%.
If the whole issue really revolves around rape, incest, and life of the mother considerations, then why can't we all agree that abortions for other reasons should be banned? The truth is that people use those issues to argue for abortion when in reality they support the ones done for purely selfish reasons as well. They just use the hard cases as a distraction from the real issue.

reply from: galen

That makes no sense, something I've come to expect from radicals. If a grown woman triples her risk of death by c-section despite the fact that she is healthy, a child would face an even greater risk. But you don't care about that do you? You would rather see an unborn child live and a born one die than the other way around.
____________________________________________
because the physiology of a child is diffrent and the physiology of an adolecent is diffrent from that of a grown woman...go to med school find out for yourself. Sometimes surgery is less risky than nature..go figure. besides i could not make up some of the weird things God does if i tried.
I would post all the relevant data here , however it would probably go over most peoples heads, and i just don't have the time these days.
I will however, point you to any good medical library where you can look up all the gory details yourself... start a search for the criteria from the Romanian girl this past year.

reply from: JRH

How many times are children raped by strangers? I've always thought that most of the child rapes are from someone who knows the child, like a relative, and if that's the case the rape is not as likely to be reported within three days.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier. The longer we sit here and debate whether or not a pregnant 11 year old should be allowed to abort, the longer we aren't discussing the real crux of this issue. If you take the total number of rape pregnancy abortions in a year and then you separate out of those the number of mothers that are that young, what number would you be left with? That number would be far less than 1%, a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of abortions done. While we're arguing about that small percentage, we're not addressing the completely elective abortions that are the most disturbing of all, the ones done because a baby would be an inconvenience. The person who started this thread no doubt wants us to focus on the hard cases and spend all of our energy debating those kind of cases than talking about the other cases. All of the hard cases amount for such a small percentage of abortions that if you were to allow the exceptions (a different topic that we can debate at another time) you would be outlawing over 98%.
If the whole issue really revolves around rape, incest, and life of the mother considerations, then why can't we all agree that abortions for other reasons should be banned? The truth is that people use those issues to argue for abortion when in reality they support the ones done for purely selfish reasons as well. They just use the hard cases as a distraction from the real issue.
Too bad for you the extremists on your side do not compromise.

reply from: JRH

That makes no sense, something I've come to expect from radicals. If a grown woman triples her risk of death by c-section despite the fact that she is healthy, a child would face an even greater risk. But you don't care about that do you? You would rather see an unborn child live and a born one die than the other way around.
____________________________________________
because the physiology of a child is diffrent and the physiology of an adolecent is diffrent from that of a grown woman...go to med school find out for yourself. Sometimes surgery is less risky than nature..go figure. besides i could not make up some of the weird things God does if i tried.
I would post all the relevant data here , however it would probably go over most peoples heads, and i just don't have the time these days.
I will however, point you to any good medical library where you can look up all the gory details yourself... start a search for the criteria from the Romanian girl this past year.
Post links that back up your assertion about pregnant children or withdraw it.

reply from: Banned Member

Do you show her a video of an abortion before you take her?
How about you answer my question first, then I'll answer yours. I considered just answering this, but I thought maybe you'd either like to admit that you wouldn't want to scare or at least admit you can't answer the question. Pretty typical.

reply from: Banned Member

How many times are children raped by strangers? I've always thought that most of the child rapes are from someone who knows the child, like a relative, and if that's the case the rape is not as likely to be reported within three days.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier. The longer we sit here and debate whether or not a pregnant 11 year old should be allowed to abort, the longer we aren't discussing the real crux of this issue. If you take the total number of rape pregnancy abortions in a year and then you separate out of those the number of mothers that are that young, what number would you be left with? That number would be far less than 1%, a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of abortions done. While we're arguing about that small percentage, we're not addressing the completely elective abortions that are the most disturbing of all, the ones done because a baby would be an inconvenience. The person who started this thread no doubt wants us to focus on the hard cases and spend all of our energy debating those kind of cases than talking about the other cases. All of the hard cases amount for such a small percentage of abortions that if you were to allow the exceptions (a different topic that we can debate at another time) you would be outlawing over 98%.
If the whole issue really revolves around rape, incest, and life of the mother considerations, then why can't we all agree that abortions for other reasons should be banned? The truth is that people use those issues to argue for abortion when in reality they support the ones done for purely selfish reasons as well. They just use the hard cases as a distraction from the real issue.
Like I've said, there is no way to tell how many abortions are due to rape...Care to comment back on it this time...thought so.

reply from: BossMomma

Do you show her a video of an abortion before you take her?
How about you answer my question first, then I'll answer yours. I considered just answering this, but I thought maybe you'd either like to admit that you wouldn't want to scare or at least admit you can't answer the question. Pretty typical.
LOL my ex couldn't look at our first daughter until she was all wrapped up and clean, he said it was just too gross. Newborns come out streaked with blood and sometimes waxy vernix that gives their skin this sickly whitish color.

reply from: 4given

No. I tend to believe he had become tired of the reports from Lib and others.

reply from: BossMomma

No. I tend to believe he had become tired of the reports from Lib and others.
I'm sure people have been reporting fboy for some time, I've done so on no less than 12 occasions but nothing was done so I just stuck him on ignore and went on posting, blissfully unware of his babble.

reply from: Banned Member

I didn't get to see my daughter until she was all cleaned off,,,I had a C-Section. But my husband got to see her pulled out of me. He was mad they wouldn't let him watch the whole thing.

reply from: 4given

I am quite sure that is true. Ignore seems to be a cherished option, and IMO should be used by those who are bothered.

reply from: BossMomma

I didn't get to see my daughter until she was all cleaned off,,,I had a C-Section. But my husband got to see her pulled out of me. He was mad they wouldn't let him watch the whole thing.
Isabelle was my first c-section, with my first daughter I was very involved in the delivery. I helped deliver her and held her on my chest immediately after birth. She wasn't pretty to look at but I bonded just the same. My bf didn't bond with her until all the goo was wiped off and she pinked up from crying, he was mortified.

reply from: Teresa18

He did too. He said that IF the unborn child was declared a person, the child's right to life would supercede the "right" to an abortion. I know he doesn't believe the child is a person, but science proves beyond a doubt that's what we have. (Maybe not in your philosophical definition but biologically) We want to get a Life At Conception Act passed because that would end abortion.
It's not a different issue. IF the unborn child is a person, then the child would be protected under the 5th and 14th Amendments. Circumstances of conception wouldn't deny one of a Constitutional right to life.
No, there are no "duties". Unborn children, babies, toddlers to a large degree, mentally handicapped, very ill, bedridden, comatose, etc. are incapable of any duties.
No. The child in the womb is not aggressive. The child is a nonconsenting victim himself/herself. The female body is designed for reproduction, not a forceful kidney removal. There is no loss in pregnancy, but there is when a kidney is stolen.
No, because rape is not natural. The natural place for sex is between a man and a woman in love, renewing their wedding day promises before God, in marriage.
How can the brief time of pregnancy compare to a human life? Many women are active throughout pregnancy. There are actually health benefits in pregnancy. Look at all the women and children out there. Women have multiple kids. The vast majority of women continue life healthy after pregnancy. Infertility can occur from abortion. An 11 year old can deliver via C-Section and be monitored carefully for health problems throughout pregnancy.
I have said many times I don't believe rape and pregnancy are parallel situations.
They are as long as they do not harm an innocent person.
There are side effects both physically and emotionally. Having a young girl lie on the table with her legs in the air having her child sucked out would be traumatic. The abortion industry doesn't always report, and things are covered up.
In abortion, two people go into the clinic, and one often comes out alive. In birth, two people go into the delivery room, and two often come out alive.
I doubt that she'll grow up in this country and never encounter the abortion debate. I imagine there may be some interest knowing that she had one.
She should first try to get him off without killing him if he truly is sleepwalking. What he's doing is unnatural, dangerous, and immoral. She may have to kill him to protect herself and perhaps her very life.
A child in the womb?! Some things are so stupid only an "intellectual" can believe them.
If my defense of life helps your defense of 1.3 million dead children a year, than so be it. You honestly think you help your cause when you say that a parent has the right to neglect his/her child if no one will care for him/her?

reply from: 4given

She should first try to get him off without killing him if he truly is sleepwalking. What he's doing is unnatural, dangerous, and immoral. She may have to kill him to protect herself and perhaps her very life.
Okay. I am quite sure this sleepwalking scenario is more of what the pro-abort side has to offer in regard to theatrics and creativity. ANY excuse to kill an innocent being, eh?

reply from: Rosalie

Are you seriously trying to claim that C-section is easier on children than it is on grown women? Didn't you say you had medical knowledge?

reply from: Teresa18

Apparently. When people lose the absolute concepts of right and wrong, you get odd scenarios comparing an unborn child to a sleepwalking rapist or kidney thief.

reply from: micah

Yes, pro-lifers and their pseudo-relative-morals are just so wonderful.
They'd set civil rights back 100 years.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Apparently. When people lose the absolute concepts of right and wrong, you get odd scenarios comparing an unborn child to a sleepwalking rapist or kidney thief.
Hahah XD It's so true... I've heard it compared to a violent mentally handicapped person too...

reply from: smom

I didn't get to see my daughter until she was all cleaned off,,,I had a C-Section. But my husband got to see her pulled out of me. He was mad they wouldn't let him watch the whole thing.
Isabelle was my first c-section, with my first daughter I was very involved in the delivery. I helped deliver her and held her on my chest immediately after birth. She wasn't pretty to look at but I bonded just the same. My bf didn't bond with her until all the goo was wiped off and she pinked up from crying, he was mortified.

reply from: smom

No. The child in the womb is not aggressive. The child is a nonconsenting victim himself/herself. The female body is designed for reproduction, not a forceful kidney removal. There is no loss in pregnancy, but there is when a kidney is stolen.
?
Thank you Theresa for the abortion pictures. Its not something that I WANT to witness happen, but it puts a real perspective of the daily life of hired shameless gruesome murderers. That one can swallow his/her mind and commit such a heinous act each and every day is beyond my capacity to reach. As long as these clinics exist through law, they should pass the obgyn ward and be seated in the middle of it all... where live babies are born each day.. so the real shame can be exposed to all. so that the abortionist doctor can go to his job in shame.. and the mother who wants her baby executed can hang her head down low when she walks past proud mothers and fathers whom get to HOLD their prize!!!!Rape included. Its butchery. Guillotines and hangings were banned a LONG time ago. We have a new form of capital punishment for criminals..... no mercy for innocent babies... butchery in the evilest form of the innocent pure being slain.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html

JR, in no way is having a baby like stealing a kidney. Its just a moment of time that you are a carrier of another human being that shares a "part of you"..(maybe your eyes or the spitten image of... your lovely blonde curls..and of course, your gracious spirit of love and your button nose... On the flip side... you dont have to have any periods during that time! yeah!!!! and instead of monthly cramps and bloating and feeling like crud with acne breakouts.... you get to feel a baby grow inside you... and all its magic. And your own complexion glows... I rather do all that than get greeted each month with blood.
When your body is ready..ripe and ready.. (your plug will have passed already( a natural mucus that protects the cervix...)) Your muscles will start to naturally squeeze around the womb... in various irregular..and then regular short moments...till it feels like one long moment... you'll feel a natural pressure down low... a natural need to push out that baby through its very own exit...And then...presto! The beautiful child is in your arms... The vagina eventually goes back to..position(there are also exercises to help put it back...If your THAT objective of a woman turning womanly-...(maybe you just dont know how to work it..some men lack that education...its definitely not taught in schools.) The protective sack(placenta..) in which they developed in.... passes out too.. The womb has a inner tissue lining that is shed within the weeks ahead... The only thing that the baby actually touches in fact.. is maybe just the cervix exit and birthcanal....(if the cervix didnt have a hole...now that would be invasive...) and... that is a exit pass... In most cases... there is no need to surgically remove a natural process... in most cases of csections.. its just become a option.. unless of course for emergencies.. so if your playing on bannin babies from their natural source of entrance which they have no way of having control..(mother and father decisions/actions) how about bowel movements. they are definitely foreign objects.. and.. they are a lifeless mass... nonviable... and they dont move unless they are gurgling through your intestines in full force!!
Besides.. the kidney theory doesnt wash..since the baby is partly made from the mother too. Its not a completely foreign object.. its a baby girl/boy that maybe has mom's blood type or dads..mom's skin color... or dad's ... or grandma's... or grandpa's... the mystery Remains to be seen until entry. A whole new person with his /her own fingerprints.. dna... brain...personality... ideas..future... his/her own facial expressions and looks... But, because they are so fragile and not yet developed for the outer world... they are not worthy in your mind to have legal protection. and yet, to witness the miracles of what has been done to save our precious innocent babies that come too early into the world... The devoted people that meticulously care for their every need until they are much stronger...

with an abortion... a rigid cold remorseless tool is inflexibly forced inside you (when you are not naturally ripen) and more tools are mercillessly bore inside your tender flesh... sharp tools that can easily impale, prick or pierce.. or puncture the flesh and cause more harm to the mother and damage unseen to the eye. With the permissable intent of entering your uterus to butcher a baby or off him/her. Tools that were made to impale, puncture, pierce a live ,warm ,moving,and growing innocent baby in its most protective state in life.
There very well COULD be feelings of the remnance of the rape going the abortion route.
With a csection and anesthesia.. the girl could be put to sleep and have a scar on her tummy... no where near the already violated protruded area.
How can you go about your agenda, JR, and not look at these babies on Theresa's given site that were brutally slaughtered. And what is in it for you if abortions exist? Just curious.
Do you believe, JR, in a capital punishment for the sexual offender?
do you have any children?

reply from: smom

i saw those pictures... as my sweet child was sleeping next to me...
i saw those pictures... and thought of my own sweet baby in those pictures and i was absolutely horrified. It doesnt matter if it was mine or not... I just wanted to reach into the picture and turn back time. but i couldnt. all i can do is fight to turn the tide. that precious child that very well could have lived and blessed a family. Hell, it made me want to start up my own orphanage. My orphanage would be a very loving home.. and its way better than being slaughtered!!!!

reply from: faithman

No. The child in the womb is not aggressive. The child is a nonconsenting victim himself/herself. The female body is designed for reproduction, not a forceful kidney removal. There is no loss in pregnancy, but there is when a kidney is stolen.
?
Thank you Theresa for the abortion pictures. Its not something that I WANT to witness happen, but it puts a real perspective of the daily life of hired shameless gruesome murderers. That one can swallow his/her mind and commit such a heinous act each and every day is beyond my capacity to reach. As long as these clinics exist through law, they should pass the obgyn ward and be seated in the middle of it all... where live babies are born each day.. so the real shame can be exposed to all. so that the abortionist doctor can go to his job in shame.. and the mother who wants her baby executed can hang her head down low when she walks past proud mothers and fathers whom get to HOLD their prize!!!!Rape included. Its butchery. Guillotines and hangings were banned a LONG time ago. We have a new form of capital punishment for criminals..... no mercy for innocent babies... butchery in the evilest form of the innocent pure being slain.
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/pictures_2.html

JR, in no way is having a baby like stealing a kidney. Its just a moment of time that you are a carrier of another human being that shares a "part of you"..(maybe your eyes or the spitten image of... your lovely blonde curls..and of course, your gracious spirit of love and your button nose... On the flip side... you dont have to have any periods during that time! yeah!!!! and instead of monthly cramps and bloating and feeling like crud with acne breakouts.... you get to feel a baby grow inside you... and all its magic. And your own complexion glows... I rather do all that than get greeted each month with blood.
When your body is ready..ripe and ready.. (your plug will have passed already( a natural mucus that protects the cervix...)) Your muscles will start to naturally squeeze around the womb... in various irregular..and then regular short moments...till it feels like one long moment... you'll feel a natural pressure down low... a natural need to push out that baby through its very own exit...And then...presto! The beautiful child is in your arms... The vagina eventually goes back to..position(there are also exercises to help put it back...If your THAT objective of a woman turning womanly-...(maybe you just dont know how to work it..some men lack that education...its definitely not taught in schools.) The protective sack(placenta..) in which they developed in.... passes out too.. The womb has a inner tissue lining that is shed within the weeks ahead... The only thing that the baby actually touches in fact.. is maybe just the cervix exit and birthcanal....(if the cervix didnt have a hole...now that would be invasive...) and... that is a exit pass... In most cases... there is no need to surgically remove a natural process... in most cases of csections.. its just become a option.. unless of course for emergencies.. so if your playing on bannin babies from their natural source of entrance which they have no way of having control..(mother and father decisions/actions) how about bowel movements. they are definitely foreign objects.. and.. they are a lifeless mass... nonviable... and they dont move unless they are gurgling through your intestines in full force!!
Besides.. the kidney theory doesnt wash..since the baby is partly made from the mother too. Its not a completely foreign object.. its a baby girl/boy that maybe has mom's blood type or dads..mom's skin color... or dad's ... or grandma's... or grandpa's... the mystery Remains to be seen until entry. A whole new person with his /her own fingerprints.. dna... brain...personality... ideas..future... his/her own facial expressions and looks... But, because they are so fragile and not yet developed for the outer world... they are not worthy in your mind to have legal protection. and yet, to witness the miracles of what has been done to save our precious innocent babies that come too early into the world... The devoted people that meticulously care for their every need until they are much stronger...

with an abortion... a rigid cold remorseless tool is inflexibly forced inside you (when you are not naturally ripen) and more tools are mercillessly bore inside your tender flesh... sharp tools that can easily impale, prick or pierce.. or puncture the flesh and cause more harm to the mother and damage unseen to the eye. With the permissable intent of entering your uterus to butcher a baby or off him/her. Tools that were made to impale, puncture, pierce a live ,warm ,moving,and growing innocent baby in its most protective state in life.
There very well COULD be feelings of the remnance of the rape going the abortion route.
With a csection and anesthesia.. the girl could be put to sleep and have a scar on her tummy... no where near the already violated protruded area.
How can you go about your agenda, JR, and not look at these babies on Theresa's given site that were brutally slaughtered. And what is in it for you if abortions exist? Just curious.
Do you believe, JR, in a capital punishment for the sexual offender?
do you have any children?
Atention All IAAP personel. Help keep this post to the top of the board. This is what pro-life is really all about, and what abortion on demand destroys. Thanks smom for this beautiful post. now if we could just get the phonies to realize the truth in it......

reply from: ProInformed

Exactly.
Why is it pretended that there is no such thing as emergency contraception for rape victims?

reply from: ProInformed

I have a much better question:
Shouldn't the rapist be killed (not the innocent baby killed and the innocent rape victim being subjected to a dangerous abortion)?

reply from: carolemarie

If we kill rapist, they have much more incentive to kill their victim.
And you are assuming that the man is caught, which he isn't always caught, your assuming it goes to trial and he doesn't plead out. In fact, you are assuming a lot.
As you know women don't report rape, for a host of reasons, mainly fear and embarssment and shame. So that is why some are not able to get the EC treatment. Especially young girls and women.
Counseling should be required for all pregnant rape victims and their families.

reply from: faithman

Exactly.
Why is it pretended that there is no such thing as emergency contraception for rape victims?
Yepper, a rapist should be asked to leave the planet, along with those who take innocent life. That includes fetii killers.

reply from: faithman

I think not. Civil rights come from the same fountain head of christian faith that pro-life originated from. But I guess you forgot the MLK was the REVERAND
MLK, and his speaches were actually sermons about the Lord Jesus Christ. Your crowd is the one who is setting civil rights back to one group of people "owning another" even to the point of saying it is purfectly ok to kill an innocent simply because they are "unwanted property".

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It's true. The Enlightenment Era pre-Civil War was what really got the ball rolling for civil rights. Without it, I don't think it would have happened.

reply from: galen

in the proposed case yes.... The insult of delivery to that chil'd body would be greater than the insult done during a cesarian. Think tear v/s cut of an episiotomy if that analogy makes it simpler for you.

reply from: nancyu

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?

reply from: BossMomma

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?

reply from: nancyu

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.

reply from: ChristianLott2

I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
I think she's trying to say she'd rather be dead than violated. How pathetic.

reply from: BossMomma

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
If you've never been raped how the hell would you know how traumatic it is? Of course your not going to answer because it'd just prove how effed up in the head you are.

reply from: nancyu

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
If you've never been raped how the hell would you know how traumatic it is? Of course your not going to answer because it'd just prove how effed up in the head you are.
I never claimed to know how traumatic it is? What does that have to do with anything?
Carole said this "The prolifers seem to want to force people to do what they believe is right with absolutly no concern for the person they are imposing these laws on"
Why would she make this comment about prolifers if she IS a prolifer?
Do you understand my confusion, or are you just going to dismiss it as my being "effed up in the head" cause I could say the same thing about you.

reply from: 4given

One does not have to experience rape to place value on the conceived child that results. To me that is as shallow as stating that men have no place, credibility or voice in the prolife movement.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
If you've never been raped how the hell would you know how traumatic it is? Of course your not going to answer because it'd just prove how effed up in the head you are.
I never claimed to know how traumatic it is? What does that have to do with anything?
Carole said this "The prolifers seem to want to force people to do what they believe is right with absolutly no concern for the person they are imposing these laws on"
Why would she make this comment about prolifers if she IS a prolifer?
Do you understand my confusion, or are you just going to dismiss it as my being "effed up in the head" cause I could say the same thing about you.
She is a "faux-lifer". Just like me. You didn't honestly expect us not to take the title on without some pride, did you? Black people have taken back the n-word, women use the c-word, and gays are using the f-word.
YOU decided to separate "us" from "you". So I can fully understand why Carole phrased it the way she did.

reply from: BossMomma

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
If you've never been raped how the hell would you know how traumatic it is? Of course your not going to answer because it'd just prove how effed up in the head you are.
I never claimed to know how traumatic it is? What does that have to do with anything?
Carole said this "The prolifers seem to want to force people to do what they believe is right with absolutly no concern for the person they are imposing these laws on"
Why would she make this comment about prolifers if she IS a prolifer?
Do you understand my confusion, or are you just going to dismiss it as my being "effed up in the head" cause I could say the same thing about you.
It could be because you don't consider her pro-life. You and Yodahater and CL2 have your little faux life list and she is practically at the top of it.

reply from: BossMomma

One does not have to experience rape to place value on the conceived child that results. To me that is as shallow as stating that men have no place, credibility or voice in the prolife movement.
One does have to experience rape to know what it feels like and the damage it does.

reply from: nancyu

Are you schizophrenic? I thought you WERE a pro lifer?
Have you ever been raped?
I'm not going to answer your question, but if you have a point to make, make it.
If you've never been raped how the hell would you know how traumatic it is? Of course your not going to answer because it'd just prove how effed up in the head you are.
I never claimed to know how traumatic it is? What does that have to do with anything?
Carole said this "The prolifers seem to want to force people to do what they believe is right with absolutly no concern for the person they are imposing these laws on"
Why would she make this comment about prolifers if she IS a prolifer?
Do you understand my confusion, or are you just going to dismiss it as my being "effed up in the head" cause I could say the same thing about you.
It could be because you don't consider her pro-life. You and Yodahater and CL2 have your little faux life list and she is practically at the top of it.
It could be that we don't consider her pro life, because she isn't pro life.
Why do you think that empathy for a rape victim has any bearing on a child's right to continue living?

reply from: BossMomma

In this case we are talking about an 11 year old rape victim, you are kicking one child to the curb for the one forced upon her. You show a total lack of empathy for the born child in favor of her fetus and I'm fair certain that if that poor girl died in childbirth you'd be happy as long as the unborn was saved, you people are that callous.

reply from: galen

it always amazes me how this one hypothetical.. what would you do question can be kicked around so much and so often to the detriment of other problems that are out there... like allowing legal abortion for everyday birth controll....why belabour this scenario ad nauseum?

reply from: nancyu

In this case we are talking about an 11 year old rape victim, you are kicking one child to the curb for the one forced upon her. You show a total lack of empathy for the born child in favor of her fetus and I'm fair certain that if that poor girl died in childbirth you'd be happy as long as the unborn was saved, you people are that callous.
From where do you draw this conclusion?! Do you really see me as that much of a monster?
I don't think abortion should be legal just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for getting one. For the same reason I wouldn't favor other methods of murder being legalized just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for committing one.

reply from: BossMomma

In this case we are talking about an 11 year old rape victim, you are kicking one child to the curb for the one forced upon her. You show a total lack of empathy for the born child in favor of her fetus and I'm fair certain that if that poor girl died in childbirth you'd be happy as long as the unborn was saved, you people are that callous.
From where do you draw this conclusion?! Do you really see me as that much of a monster?
I don't think abortion should be legal just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for getting one. For the same reason I wouldn't favor other methods of murder being legalized just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for committing one.
I draw my conclusion from the statement you just made. You would allow that child to die that the unborn child might live. An 11 year old is a child, where is your love and concern for her life?

reply from: carolemarie

The comment was to the prolifers in this thread who were insisting that little girl deliver that baby and having no concern for her at all!
I am prolife, but i am not on a power trip to force people in horrible situtations to live up to what i want them to do... I am willing in those rare cases to let the people involved decide.

reply from: nancyu

I don't think abortion should be legal just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for getting one. For the same reason I wouldn't favor other methods of murder being legalized just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for committing one.

reply from: BossMomma

Can't rationalize so you spam, how typical.

reply from: nancyu

Can't rationalize so you spam, how typical.
Can't rationalize so you lie, how typical.
It's a good thought that you seemed to have missed so I repeated it once. Why don't you read it and comment instead of assuming it's just spam.
I don't think abortion should be legal just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for getting one. For the same reason I wouldn't favor other methods of murder being legalized just in case some day, some one might have a really good reason for committing one.
Do you think murder should be legalized in case someone someday might have a really good reason for it?

reply from: leftsfoil

Children should never be left/put in a situation where rape can happen in the first place. If this sounds unrealistic or too inconvenient.. then perhaps you shouldn't be parenting in the first place. When/if abortion becomes illegal again, people will continue to have them. What good can come of an 11 year old having a child? The reality is that, right or wrong, a good family will do what needs to be done and a good community will support them. Some decisions are harder than others. Was it God's plan for a rapist to rape children? I think not.

reply from: BossMomma

In the instance of a pre-teen getting pregnant I feel that everyone but the child and her doctor should butt the hell out.

reply from: Shenanigans

This is one of this situations which is almost designed to get Lifer's backs up. The odds of an 11 year old or any woman getting pregnant from rape is something in the vincity of 1%, (of course, I'm not sure if that takes into consideration the unreported rapes, and then there's that mindset that something like 60% of rapes aren't reported or some horrid number). So really, it seems Pro-Choicers like to bring up these rarities to put lifers in a corner. THey say "no, she can't abort", you point the finger and yell "MONSTER" the Lifer says "yeah, okay, I guess" its "YOU HYPOCRIT!!"
I don't have kids. I'm Catholic, so when (God willing) I have some, they will be raised Catholic. I knew what abortion was when I was a kid, and I knew it was wrong and that it was murder and I pray to God I will instill that value in my own children one day (Any boys I have will be given a talking to about standing by any girl they may get prego).
Anyway, when I started to think of all the people I know who've been raped, I made myself feel sick because I ran out of digits I have to count on. And these are people from my social and personal life, not professional! Of all the girls I know who've been raped, only two got prego, and one who was abused by a scum bag uncle for four years between 6 and 10, she got preg at 10 and that's how teh abuse was discovered. It was a small world, she ended up getting fostered by my supervisior at my part time work (when I was 17) and she lived next door to my best friend from the next school I went too.
Basically, she didn't abort, she didn't want to. She said she'd been forced to do things against her will enough, she said that seh felt as if all the white doctors and white nurses and white social workers were forcing her to abort this rape baby. ANyway, the child came prem at like 32 weeks or something and was low birth weight, he was then adopted to a member of her family, somethign called "Whangi" - last I heard she doesn't have much contact with her son, though they both know of each other. He'll be about 18 now and is really good at Maori carving from what I hear.
The other woman I know who as raped, well, she was 20 and got super drunk and went off with a guy who raped her. She was pro-abortion, like REALLY pro-abortion and always had a good yell at me if the subject came up. So, yeah, she aborted, and afterwards, while she didn't admit it, you knew she wasn't happy about it. She ended up with serious depression and only now has started to get her life back together. For several weeks after the rape, before she reaslied she was prego she was getting better and said she couldn't let one scum bag ruin her life - especially when she'd shag strangers for a free drink (She was a very sexually liberal). You could argue it was a delayed shock reaction or something, but who knows. It certainly didn't help the situation.
Interesting, I realised the other day that New ZEaland doesn't have "rape" as an exception to get an abortion, as rape is very hard to prove, so its not included in the law. Incest is however. (Abortion ain't legal on demand down here, though we all know that's how the abortionists treat it).
But an 11 year pregnant, rape or not, whatever facility treats her, and however they treat her, better damn well report it to the cops. Else, an abortion isn't going to save her, its just going to clear her out and have her back in the sticky mits of her abuser.

reply from: BossMomma

Yes the abuse should be reported but, if the continued pregnancy would prove detremental to the 11 year old I feel that she should have the right to safely end it. Pro-life and pro-abort should back the hell up.

reply from: 4given

And that is exactly what is most troubling to me about the repeal of consent and notification laws. Our state is the most liberal in regard to abortion. We have NO consent or notification laws, free EC days at the clinic, special teen days that are included on a school route.. A pedophiles dream. My state does not even report abortions. Anyone could come from any state and have their baby killedn here.. regardless of age.. et cetera.

reply from: Shenanigans

I'll be the first to say I'm not a fan of any abortion at any stage for any reason, but even I won't condemn an 11 year old rape victim for having one. Of course, we have to remember, in quite a number of countries and in the "West" many centuries ago, when people only lived to be about 30, 40 if they're lucky, women or rather "girls" would be preg at 11.
Its funny how humanity moves on with its ideas and extends its life span. I'd wager if we cut out all the hormones in food and the McDs 10 year olds probably wouldn't concieve in the first place and if they did, they'd be a hell of a lot healthier to carry to term. I saw a girl who was preg who I thought was 20. She wasn't, she was 12.
Anyway, physically detremental or not or however you want to debate it, if people are truly Pro-Choice they will allow the girl to decide, or leave her family to decide if she is unable. I don't like abortion, but I like using these cases for a cause a hell of a lot less.

reply from: Shenanigans

We have no parental consent law in NZL and any girl who is preg can get a free abortion through the school nurse or any family planning or GP in the country.
However, as much as I hate our arse of an abortion law, it is a legal requirement that all abortions must be reported and that everything about the woman has to be detailed, and by that I mean, reason, age, gestation, race, employment status et cetera, it gives us a good idea of what's happening with women and abortions and reasons.
It is creepy that ten year olds are getting pregnant, I hope they're nailing the bastards who knock her up.

reply from: Shenanigans

And then when you think of the logistics, its probably HELLISHLY more traumatic and invasive to force an abortion on someone.
I am reminded of the horror stories that continue to come out of China about this same sort of thing.

reply from: yoda

If she is pregnant, she ALREADY has a child.
What good can come of killing the child that she already has?

reply from: yoda

I don't know about your country, but here it's very, very rare that any abortion "facility" reports statutory (or any other kind ) of rape. No, they destroy the DNA evidence and keep it all hush-hush. Better for future business that way, you know?

reply from: faithman

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4813617&page=1 ; Not all rape cases end in abortion. Even the very young can survive rape without killing the innocent womb child.

reply from: BossMomma

Yes they can survive, but she should have say in what she wants to do. Only her choice matters, the opinions of others are irrelevant.


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