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Vasectomy at 28: One Man's Decision

by: AshMarie88

I just found this online, from 2007:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/21115130/

What do you all think about it?

reply from: BossMomma

I think he made a choice for himself. What ticks me off is that a woman can't get a tubal unless she either has kids already or is 30 or older. Why can men get vasectomies at a young age without having reproduced?

reply from: faithman

I think he made a choice for himself. What ticks me off is that a woman can't get a tubal unless she either has kids already or is 30 or older. Why can men get vasectomies at a young age without having reproduced?
It is much easier on men physically, and much easier to reverse. If all a man aspires to be is a whore monger, and run with sluts, then a little snip snip would avoid the mess they cause by walking away from their fatherly responcibility. They were also developing a BC pill for men which was reported to have far less side effects than BC for women. The BC movement, just like abortion, has always been slanted towards low life men who want the pleasure of making children without having to make a home for them. Pro-abort men are low life scum bags just out for a good time. Some have no problemo killing both mother and child if he can not get the woman to do his dirty work for him and abort. Pro abort men are murderers in heart and deed. Women should take heed, and sociaty should protect women from them insted of covering their criminal intent at planned parenthood.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I am proud of this man for making a responsible choice, and I wish more men would take the initiative and do the same!

reply from: Banned Member

I think that this man is a pathetic loser and ashamed that society can produce such men. What this man's actions suggest to me is someone who wants to get the most sexual gratification he can out of life with the absolute minimum of responsibility. This kind of person has "user" written all over him. Rather than encourage abortion for a woman he simply had himself fixed and eliminated the middle ground. Thinking that having a child is a legacy is selfish?
This is yet another sad example of the immoral war that is being waged upon the family.
"Having a child is selfish. Having an abortion is a right." Twisted!

reply from: Carifairy

Bossmomma~
The 'clinic' that I work at will tie any woman's tubes age 18 and above, as long as she understands that it is permanent and not reversible.
We do Vasctomies too.
Many abortion clinics offer tubal ligations to any woman that wants one, age 18 and up.
So if you know of anyone that needs the service, there are numerous options.
There is NOTHING wrong with not wanting children..Plenty of couples, married couples in fact, choose to never have children.
Perhaps you do not agree, and that is fine.. You may want children terribly, but not everyone does.

reply from: BossMomma

I tried to get my tubes done at my OB/GYN's office at the age of 18 and got the whole " Oh your so young..why not wait a few years and see if you change your mind?" At 20 I got pregnant, had a son then tried the coil and suffered an infection. The coils were removed and I got pregnant twice more, the tubes are getting tied this time.

reply from: BossMomma

That's rather hypocritical considering you aren't breeding and have no kids or wife to your name. If a guy doesn't want kids he shouldn't have a social obligation to procreate.

reply from: BossMomma

Yeah, God forbid that a man shouldn't put his balls to use.

reply from: Banned Member

If a guy doesn't want children he shouldn't be sleeping around.

reply from: scopia19822

"I tried to get my tubes done at my OB/GYN's office at the age of 18 and got the whole " Oh your so young..why not wait a few years and see if you change your mind?" At 20 I got pregnant, had a son then tried the coil and suffered an infection. The coils were removed and I got pregnant twice more, the tubes are getting tied this time."
I think your OB/gyn was doing the responsible thing. I think that the same standard should apply the same to both men and women. Permanant sterilization is not a decision to be made lightly. My uncle is a retired plastic surgeon. If anyone presented themselves to him for an elective procedure he would not do it until they had a psyc evaulation and counsling. Some doctors will require the same thing for gastric bypass surgery. IMHO it should be required for anyone undergoing an elective permanant procedure.

reply from: Banned Member

"I view the next 15-20 years of my life as some of the best years I'm going to live. I wanted to make sure those years were . . . going to make me ultimately the happiest person I could be," he told TODAY co-host Matt Lauer.
Do you think that having himself fixed is going to improve his bowling score?

reply from: Carifairy

Bossmomma~
Dang.. I am sorry you went all through that
If you still have problems with finding a doc whom will sterilize you, feel free to PM me and I can try and help you.

reply from: BossMomma

Still, it's my body, my decision. I didn't want to have kids, Iwas severely bi-polar (still am) violent and, suicidal and if not for a will of iron I could have been one of these psychos who beat their kids or,like in the Andrea Yates case, kill them. I got on good meds after I had my son but I wish that a Dr. would just do as they are told and paid to do.

reply from: BossMomma

My Dr. is willing to sterilize me, no worries. I've had two uterine surgeries, it's dangerous enough being pregnant now, if I go into labor and deliver naturally my uterus could burst and I'd die of internal bleeding. I'm scheduled for a c-section and tubal on the 26th.
I'm looking forward to the big day too, I made my little Isabelle an angel bracelette to wear when she's born at church today and it came out perfect. It'll be her first Christmas gift.

reply from: 4given

Indeed. Your choice to prevent any unwanted children is fine with me. It isn't really up for discussion anyway. My body, my decision doesn't apply unless it was referring to another's body.. the unborn. Although I can understand your position somewhat, I still can't relate to such a drastic measure. You are trying to be responsible and I respect that.
Alright I believe I better understand your position. I think my sister resembles you somewhat. She has her Xanex and Vicodin.. at what point do you feel she may need to leave the meds behind and tend to her living children? You mentioned acceptance which is key.. Each person differently though. She experienced a difficult and challenging life. I actually discussed with another sister how her Dr. may accidentally tie her tubes..

reply from: churchmouse

Well what do I think.......
I remember when I was 27 years old........ I thought differently than I did at 35 and at 40 and 45, and now at almost 53. And I bet my tastes will change again at 60. Tastes and views, opinions can change as you grow older. This kid doesnt obviously realize that. It will be to bad one day, if he falls in love with a woman that wants children. He will be the one that loses out. If he doesn't then so be it.
At least if he is sleeping with the sorority house, he wont get them all pregnant, so that they could possibly kill children by abortion.
He obviously wants to have a lot of sex or this surgery wouldnt have been an option. Happiness for him seems to be sterility in order to have a lot of sex. SEx i above having children.

reply from: teddybearhamster

while he might regret it later on, at least he won't be creating children in the first place as opposed to other people who decide they don't want a kid after one already exists. that's murder.

reply from: Banned Member

I am 35, almost 36 and single, but would love to be married and have children. I don't think that a lot of men are mature enough at 28 to be deciding whether or not they will want children when they are 35.

reply from: faithman

Besides, a man can have his plumbing patched back up. I know a couple of guys who have had kids after a reversed V. Hey TBH!!!! Good to "see" you. I hope things are well with you.

reply from: teddybearhamster

you don't sound like you're a me me me person though. that's the impression i got from that guy's article.

reply from: BossMomma

Well, quit being such a jack ass and maybe a woman will tolerate you long enough to procreate with you. As of now I see why you're still single.

reply from: Banned Member

Please cite where I have been a jackass... links and/or exact quotes please!

reply from: BossMomma

I think that this man is a pathetic loser and ashamed that society can produce such men. What this man's actions suggest to me is someone who wants to get the most sexual gratification he can out of life with the absolute minimum of responsibility. This kind of person has "user" written all over him. Rather than encourage abortion for a woman he simply had himself fixed and eliminated the middle ground. Thinking that having a child is a legacy is selfish?
This is yet another sad example of the immoral war that is being waged upon the family.
"Having a child is selfish. Having an abortion is a right." Twisted!
-------------------------
In the proclamation of this Gospel, we must not fear hostility or unpopularity, and we must refuse any compromise or ambiguity which might conform us to the world's way of thinking.
http://www.myspace.com/iamaprolifeperson

Edited: 12/17/2008 at 04:10 PM by Augustine

reply from: Banned Member

I stand by every word.

reply from: BossMomma

I stand by every word.
Still makes you a jack ass, you have no clue about why that guy doesn't want to breed yet you slander him when you aren't breeding your damn self. Where's your kids at the age of 35? Why haven't you been putting your sperm to use in passing on your "legacy"?

reply from: Banned Member

I am not married. I am waiting until I am married to have children, like I am supposed to, the way that every person is supposed to. Love, marriage, children, family... in that order.

reply from: BossMomma

Well you better tie the knot soon, the older that sperm gets the more likely your future kids will have health issues. Your balls do have a shelf life pal.

reply from: Banned Member

My testosterone is just as hearty as yours.

reply from: BossMomma

My testosterone is just as hearty as yours.
Uhm..nah, when you can tell a serial killer to kiss your ass without taking the beef jerky out of your mouth, then your testosterone will be as hearty as mine.

reply from: Banned Member

BossMamma, you are disgusting. I feel soiled by posting anything in the same forum with a foulf mouthed piece of trash like yourself. I owe it to the unborn to continue posting however. You are ignorant and crude. Stop advocating baby killing!
ABORTION IS MURDER!
PRO-CHOICE IS PRO-ABORTION!

reply from: BossMomma

Where did I advocate abortion you lying judgemental little eunuch? If you feel soiled it's because you got a good eye full of your own BS. You can't stand the fact that some pro-lifers have a brain and actually use it. You want to piss and moan and call some guy you don't know from Adam a loser when look at you, you're 35 and unwed, no kids, not a clue about the relationships you 'council' everyone about. Get over yourself and jump into the real world.

reply from: ChristianLott2

boss, take your own advice and get over yourself. It's really wonderful you have kids and all but you use it to act superior. You tell Augustine the reason he has no children is his fault but .. you have no husband. Is that your fault? Ah..
Anyway about this 28 year old idiot..
All the guys and girls who are just out to screw and not have children, fine. Go get sterilized. But that's not really what happens. Whore men prey on innocent girls, whore women prey on innocent men. The more people you screw, the more points you get - even if it requires taking advantage of someone else.
This guy thinks he's not taking advantage because he's up front with them about it, he tells them he's sterile. I think that's an insult to these women and himself. If he doesn't think life is worth anything maybe he should kill himself and stop bothering everyone with his lack of potency.

reply from: ChristianLott2

28 year old f- doll. What a loser.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Is there a single pro-life guy on this board who DOESN'T have serious woman issues?
I can tell you why these freaks can't find parters - much less anyone who would create more of their kind...
I know a lot of men and women. I envy none of them. I am happy I have the knowledge I have, I just wish I'd been wiser when I was young.
So what gives you the right to claim I have issues? You are the sterile one posting about abortion. It's like a gay posting about pregnancy - you're not involved, so go away.
Then to talk about creating more of my kind.. from someone who will never have children. In fact, you can't be believed or trusted to have an opinion on any of these issues. You're not involved nor will you ever even have the potential TO BE.

reply from: cracrat

Oooh, oooh, me, me, pick me.

reply from: BossMomma

boss, take your own advice and get over yourself. It's really wonderful you have kids and all but you use it to act superior. You tell Augustine the reason he has no children is his fault but .. you have no husband. Is that your fault? Ah..
Anyway about this 28 year old idiot..
All the guys and girls who are just out to screw and not have children, fine. Go get sterilized. But that's not really what happens. Whore men prey on innocent girls, whore women prey on innocent men. The more people you screw, the more points you get - even if it requires taking advantage of someone else.
This guy thinks he's not taking advantage because he's up front with them about it, he tells them he's sterile. I think that's an insult to these women and himself. If he doesn't think life is worth anything maybe he should kill himself and stop bothering everyone with his lack of potency.
How am I using my kids to act superior? Augie is being a hypocrite, he is child free yet is bashing another man for being child free and you two idiots are calling him a whore just because he doesn't want kids? Get over yourself, you and Augustine are walking cases for birth control.

reply from: BossMomma

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Please...
Has he ever mentioned what he does for a living?
Would a blowhard like Augustine keep that quiet if it was the least bit impressive?
Dayum, do you remember how he brought up his family history as though we'd all be dazzled by it?
The only thing impressive about Augustine is the fact that one man can house so much stupidity. He calls this guy a 28 year old fdoll yet he probably couldn't get laid if he taped a hundred dollar bill to the end of his penis and walked into a whore house.

reply from: yoda

Just consider the source, Augustine, and blow it off. Her motor mouth attacks anyone who disagrees with her in the least.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You know, I'd put Augustine on ignore but he's just so pitiful he doesn't even anger me.

reply from: ChristianLott2

yet... he didn't say that, I did.
Here you are giving relationship advice - the one with not one, not two, but THREE baby daddies Woohoo. You sure know how to pick 'em.
Imo you feel inferior to Augustine. He's lead a disciplined life that makes the chaos you've gone through look so unnecessary and meaningless.
I envy both of you though. You for your children, Augustine for his discipline.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Silly loser!
I have insurance that covers invitro. I could have a baby if the whim hits me.
Gross. That's disgusting.
In heaven.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

My testosterone is just as hearty as yours.
You DO know the difference between testosterone and sperm, don't you????

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Why are some of you calling this man an idiot for ensuring that he will NEVER get a woman pregnant because HE DOES NOT want children? He is so much better than the sleazy excuses for men who think that it is a mark of their manhood to impregnate multiple women - and usually leave them holding the bag, having to raise their children alone with NO support from their so-called men.
I think he is an intelligent, cautious, responsible and admirable man.

reply from: ProInformed

Unfortunately the woman's movement has been taken over by pro-abort females who only aspire to be equal with the low-life sort of males they envy.

reply from: ChristianLott2

If it's better than bad it's good?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

If it's better than bad it's good?
What is bad about taking personal responsibility in something so paramount as making babies? I don't see anything bad about what he did, but then again, I'm not Catholic so I was not raised to "be fruitful and multiply" without reservation.
This man did the best thing for himself and for whatever woman he chooses WHO KNOWS ABOUT HIS DECISION AND AGREES WITH IT. I honestly doubt he will be using his lack of fertility as an excuse for wanton, reckless, manwhoring. And believe me, there are PLENTY of women who don't want children and will be happy to not take a chance.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

yet... he didn't say that, I did.
Here you are giving relationship advice - the one with not one, not two, but THREE baby daddies Woohoo. You sure know how to pick 'em.
Imo you feel inferior to Augustine. He's lead a disciplined life that makes the chaos you've gone through look so unnecessary and meaningless.
I envy both of you though. You for your children, Augustine for his discipline.
She has way more experience than Augustine the eunuch.

reply from: scopia19822

"I'm not Catholic so I was not raised to "be fruitful and multiply" without reservation. "
It is not so much that RML as it is playing God and interfering with the natural law and order of things to the Church. It is ok to plan ones family or postponing children as long as artificial means are not used to do so. NFP is sanctioned by the Church and it has a dual function. It can postpone pregnancy or it can help a couple achieve it. No other "family planning method" does that.

reply from: ProInformed

True, and not everyone who uses or endorses NFP is a Catholic or pro-life.
I started using it before I became pro-life and have a pro-choice sister who started using it too. Because it's natural it is safe, healthy, and inexpensive.
The pretense that only Catholics use/endorse NFP is no more true than if it were claimed that the only reason somebody would use a natural versus artificial form of anything such as beauty treatments, weight loss, herbal remedies, etc., were only doing so because they are Catholics.

reply from: yoda

So do I, from what I know of him from his posts here.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

True, and not everyone who uses or endorses NFP is a Catholic or pro-life.
I started using it before I became pro-life and have a pro-choice sister who started using it too. Because it's natural it is safe, healthy, and inexpensive.
The pretense that only Catholics use/endorse NFP is no more true than if it were claimed that the only reason somebody would use a natural versus artificial form of anything such as beauty treatments, weight loss, herbal remedies, etc., were only doing so because they are Catholics.
NFP was never an option for me, nor is it for many women. It takes quite a bit of planning, observation, testing, record-keeping and so forth. It has also been responsible for a number of unplanned babies, one of whom is my niece. Luckily, only the wife is Catholic, so the husband had a good old Protestant vasectomy.

reply from: BossMomma

yet... he didn't say that, I did.
Here you are giving relationship advice - the one with not one, not two, but THREE baby daddies Woohoo. You sure know how to pick 'em.
Imo you feel inferior to Augustine. He's lead a disciplined life that makes the chaos you've gone through look so unnecessary and meaningless.
I envy both of you though. You for your children, Augustine for his discipline.
Two baby daddies you ignorant shyte, my daughters have the same father as he and I had been together for over two years before he showed himself to be yet another loser, just like my pro-life husband was a loser, it's becoming a trait with men, being losers and all.
I'd rather be with a sterile man who can't create children and then walk out on them. I hardly feel inferior to Augustine, he's a 35 year old hypocrite with what appears to be a spoiled toddler's mentality.

reply from: scopia19822

NFP was never an option for me, nor is it for many women. It takes quite a bit of planning, observation, testing, record-keeping and so forth. It has also been responsible for a number of unplanned babies, one of whom is my niece. Luckily, only the wife is Catholic, so the husband had a good old Protestant vasectomy.
It takes discipline and commitment from both parnters, it actually is a good building tool in marriage.

reply from: ChristianLott2

So you want an f doll, not a man. No wonder you don't like Augustine.
The spoiled child's mentality fits you so well though.
Since you hate men so much, why don't you just stop having sex with them?
Now who is the hypocrite?

reply from: Banned Member

Yeah... me. I have many female friends, as well as male friends. Women my age and younger don't mind being friends with me, because I don't come on to them like I am looking for a sexual encounter. As far as not being married or in a relationship, that is partially choice and partially circumstance. I have seriously liked several women. I don't have bitter ex-girlfriends or illigitimate children running about. No woman has ever been pressured to have an abortion by me and I have even stopped an abortion from occurring. Not by screaming murder at her, but reminding her how special life is, and that she would be able to go through with having her child. People know that I am pro-life and they know that I don't chase women for sex. I couldn't possibly have fewer problems with women. At work, I have supervisors who are women as well and have good working relationships with them. I treat women as equals and expect the same in return. Respect is not as difficult as people make it out to be.

reply from: Teresa18

I would be opposed to the vasectomy due to what I said in the contraception thread. He has taken sex out of its unitive and procreative function in marriage and reduced it to merely a pleasurable act for himself.

reply from: churchmouse

However sinful........at least he made the choice and will not impregnate a woman who could get an abortion. I commend him for that. Now he can be the rooster on the prowl......and not worry. Sad but the right choice for someone that wants to mess around. I wonder how he will prevent all his sex partners from getting STDS. LOL

reply from: ChristianLott2

Very well said. He's also objectifying others and himself. This is good for no one.

reply from: BossMomma

So you want an f doll, not a man. No wonder you don't like Augustine.
The spoiled child's mentality fits you so well though.
Since you hate men so much, why don't you just stop having sex with them?
Now who is the hypocrite?
lol because my new religion forbids lesbian sex.

reply from: BossMomma

if only he is getting pleasure from the sex he ain't doing it right. Usually pleasure is felt by both parties.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

So you want an f doll, not a man. No wonder you don't like Augustine.
The spoiled child's mentality fits you so well though.
Since you hate men so much, why don't you just stop having sex with them?
Now who is the hypocrite?
lol because my new religion forbids lesbian sex.
Not everyone agrees that the bible is clear on this.

reply from: BossMomma

So you want an f doll, not a man. No wonder you don't like Augustine.
The spoiled child's mentality fits you so well though.
Since you hate men so much, why don't you just stop having sex with them?
Now who is the hypocrite?
lol because my new religion forbids lesbian sex.
Not everyone agrees that the bible is clear on this.
Well, I am a heterosexual and I do not think a lesbian relationship would be healthy for my kids. That is another reason I'm chosing to abstain from any further relationships, I don't want my kids feeling insecure about the people that may come and go as relationships fail. I think once my kids are grown and on their own I'll try the dating scene again, I am still fairly young after all.

reply from: Banned Member

Homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible, thus forbidden by God.

reply from: socratease

It is clear that homosexual acts are forbidden by the teachings of the bible.
You'd have to belong to some loony toon denomination to find approval of homosexual acts from someone in the clergy.
Not everyone "agrees" the bible is clear that it's wrong to cheat on your spouse, either. Guess who doesn't "agree"?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Sure, if you and your husband are not young and enjoy carefree sex without the risk of pregnancy. It would have been a hindrance to our marriage, not any kind of help. Discipline and commitment we had plenty of, but sex once every now and then was not in our best interests.
As far as I'm concerned, natural family planning is called "menopause."

reply from: LiberalChiRo

So you would rather see unwanted children killed over and over than a man get a vasectomy.
Newsflash: he's going to have sex no matter what you say, so isn't it WAY better he's preventing the death of children?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well, I am a heterosexual and I do not think a lesbian relationship would be healthy for my kids. That is another reason I'm chosing to abstain from any further relationships, I don't want my kids feeling insecure about the people that may come and go as relationships fail. I think once my kids are grown and on their own I'll try the dating scene again, I am still fairly young after all.
That seems like a very responsible thing to do.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It is clear that homosexual acts are forbidden by the teachings of the bible.
You'd have to belong to some loony toon denomination to find approval of homosexual acts from someone in the clergy.
Not everyone "agrees" the bible is clear that it's wrong to cheat on your spouse, either. Guess who doesn't "agree"?
No, it's not clear.

reply from: Rosalie

First of all, what you're saying is utter crap. Second of all, what's it to you? You do NOT have the right to force your religious standards on others.

reply from: BossMomma

Well, I am a heterosexual and I do not think a lesbian relationship would be healthy for my kids. That is another reason I'm chosing to abstain from any further relationships, I don't want my kids feeling insecure about the people that may come and go as relationships fail. I think once my kids are grown and on their own I'll try the dating scene again, I am still fairly young after all.
That seems like a very responsible thing to do.
Thanks.

reply from: BossMomma

No it isn't.
Actually it is Lib, Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

reply from: Teresa18

I don't think either are right - the vasectomy or killing children.

reply from: Teresa18

In your opinion.
We are having a discussion about it. So it's ok for you to post in support of it but not ok for me to post in opposition to it? How am I forcing my religious standards on this man? Did I prevent him from getting the vasectomy with my mean, old opinion?

reply from: BossMomma

I don't think either are right - the vasectomy or killing children.
Good thing no one else cares. Not producing children if you don't want them is responsible.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No it isn't.
Actually it is Lib, Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus doesn't count. Literally... Jesus sort of wiped that whole section away. That's where all of the "don't eat pork" and "if you have a pustule with a white hair in it, cleanse for 7 days" and "after the birth of a male child, cleanse for 7 days. After a female child, cleanse for 14" and other such long lists of utter nonsense comes from.
I read through it once. I laughed my ass off XD

reply from: Rosalie

No, in an opinion of everyone who is not a religious fanatic
No, it's absolutely okay for you to post an opinion. It is NOT okay trying to insult people and their lifestyle, sexual preferences and everything else based on the fact that your outdated religion says it's wrong.
Your religion is your private business. And you are supposed to keep it that way.

reply from: yoda

You must realize that Lib is a member of the "intolerant champions of tolerance", who tolerate and support everything that they agree with, and attack and revile everything they disagree with.

reply from: Rosalie

You must realize that Lib is a member of the "intolerant champions of tolerance", who tolerate and support everything that they agree with, and attack and revile everything they disagree with.
It is NOT okay trying to insult people and their lifestyle, sexual preferences and everything else based on the fact that someone's outdated religion says it's wrong.
Your religion (or lack thereof) is your private business. And you are supposed to keep it that way.

reply from: ChristianLott2

No, we still have free speech. Everyone can still say what they want, no matter how ignorant you think it is. It's the same reason why people like you are tolerated here and not banned (yet). Don't you get it?

reply from: Rosalie

You don't read, do you? I never said you cannot SAY whatever you want. I said that forcing your religious on others and treating them abominably (= the way you and others here do) is NOT your right, even if it is how you interpret your religion.
Religious freedom. Don't you get it?

reply from: ChristianLott2

All we do here is post messages to each other. What are you talking about?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

All we do here is post messages to each other. What are you talking about?
Written abuse.

reply from: Rosalie

All we do here is post messages to each other. What are you talking about?
Insults, degradation and irrational hatred towards those who refuse to follow your religion. That's what I'm talking about.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Someone on here posted something like that? Did you report it to the moderator?
Please quote it. I think you're having delusions.

reply from: 4given

First of all, what you're saying is utter crap. Second of all, what's it to you? You do NOT have the right to force your religious standards on others.
How extremely rude. She isn't "forcing" anything on anyone, just sharing her views and personal standard. You have a lot to say about how rudely pro-abort/choicers are treated, yet you don't see the hypocrisy?! Why are you so angry Rosalie? You haven't been treated poorly here.

reply from: ChristianLott2

First of all, what you're saying is utter crap. Second of all, what's it to you? You do NOT have the right to force your religious standards on others.
How extremely rude. She isn't "forcing" anything on anyone, just sharing her views and personal standard. You have a lot to say about how rudely pro-abort/choicers are treated, yet you don't see the hypocrisy?! Why are you so angry Rosalie? You haven't been treated poorly here.
It's obvious the one who's being insulting is Rosalie. Hold on a second, didn't Lib just defend Ros too?
Yeah, okay. Wow. Sharing an opinion you two don't hold is now considered FORCING and INSULTING.
There's a psychological term for this, it's called dementia. You two need to quit drinking all that faucet water.

reply from: BossMomma

No it isn't.
Actually it is Lib, Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus doesn't count. Literally... Jesus sort of wiped that whole section away. That's where all of the "don't eat pork" and "if you have a pustule with a white hair in it, cleanse for 7 days" and "after the birth of a male child, cleanse for 7 days. After a female child, cleanse for 14" and other such long lists of utter nonsense comes from.
I read through it once. I laughed my ass off XD
All christ did was take away the need to sacrifice a small farm each week to atone for sin. He never said all the stuff my father said is now void.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No it isn't.
Actually it is Lib, Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus doesn't count. Literally... Jesus sort of wiped that whole section away. That's where all of the "don't eat pork" and "if you have a pustule with a white hair in it, cleanse for 7 days" and "after the birth of a male child, cleanse for 7 days. After a female child, cleanse for 14" and other such long lists of utter nonsense comes from.
I read through it once. I laughed my ass off XD
All christ did was take away the need to sacrifice a small farm each week to atone for sin. He never said all the stuff my father said is now void.
Then why can we eat pork? Why do women NOT have to cleanse and do all of that stuff? Why do we not need to wear head coverings when we worship?
Why is it ok not to do any of that anymore? I asked a priest that once, and you already know the answer I got. Jesus made a new Covenant between us and God.

reply from: BossMomma

No it isn't.
Actually it is Lib, Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
Leviticus doesn't count. Literally... Jesus sort of wiped that whole section away. That's where all of the "don't eat pork" and "if you have a pustule with a white hair in it, cleanse for 7 days" and "after the birth of a male child, cleanse for 7 days. After a female child, cleanse for 14" and other such long lists of utter nonsense comes from.
I read through it once. I laughed my ass off XD
All christ did was take away the need to sacrifice a small farm each week to atone for sin. He never said all the stuff my father said is now void.
Then why can we eat pork? Why do women NOT have to cleanse and do all of that stuff? Why do we not need to wear head coverings when we worship?
Why is it ok not to do any of that anymore? I asked a priest that once, and you already know the answer I got. Jesus made a new Covenant between us and God.
Are you a Hebrew? The Hebrews were Gods special little group of people, those were rules set down for the Jews to follow and many Jews still follow the old ways as they reject Christ as the savior. The rest of us are Gentiles.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm not a Hebrew, I'm actually referencing Leviticus, which contains a bunch of stuff no one follows anymore yet some Christians try to pull its references to homosexuality out of their butt (pun intended) and act as if it counts.

reply from: Rosalie

Someone on here posted something like that? Did you report it to the moderator?
Please quote it. I think you're having delusions.
It happens in nearly every single thread. Anything that goes
And why would I report it? This forum is Free For All Pro-Lifers. It's not like there are any rules here.
It's okay to abuse, insult or spam (hello, Faithman and his alter-egos/cronies) - as long as you're directing it at pro-choicers.
Which is why I'll never take 99% of you here seriously.

reply from: Rosalie

Personal views are all right. Trying to degrade relationships, sexual identities or lifestyle choices of others (which is what most "Christians" on this board do) is not.
And I'm not angry but I think it's funny you think I am.
And your last sentence ... wow, that's just unbelievable. Let me sum up and highlight just some of it ...
- I have been called almost every single degrading name you can call a female only for being 1. pro-choice, 2. in a relationship that is not a marriage
- There are people here who say that, as a pro-choicer, I couldn't have cared about my daughter's well-being before she was born, that I can't really love her now because of my "ugly soul" etc.
- People here use religion as a veil, as a cover-up for their hatefulness and feel that it's okay to insult, degrade, criticize, condemn and judge because their religion supposedly tells them it's all right.
So yeah, this forum is just a tropical haven, really.

reply from: Teresa18

Gee, could you be insulting me and my lifestyle?
All I am doing is posting my faith and beliefs. If you take that as an insult, that is your problem. Like I said before, you are a typical liberal. You are only tolerant of viewpoints with which you agree. In fact, you want people, Christians in particular, with opposing viewpoints to shut up.
You are insulting other Christians on this board. You came onto a pro-life, Christian board and have been nasty and insulting to pro-lifers and Christians. You may claim you don't have a religion, but your beliefs match up with those of secular humanists. The devotees to this mindset treat it with the fervor of a religion. You are here spreading your secular humanism. Secular humanists are allowed to promote their beliefs but not Christians.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2001/06/What-Secular-Humanists-Believe.aspx

reply from: ChristianLott2

I believe that to be a logical conclusion. You can't understand the worth of life unless you can understand what life is. Life is not something that comes about on someone's birthday, it starts at it's very conception.
We only want you to be the best person you can be If you can make yourself believe a pre born child is worthless, at what point do they begin to have worth? When you 'bestow' worth onto them?
That's what's so backwards about choicers. They deny biology, scientific fact and live in a fantasy world where they make their inconsistent decisions about life worth as and when it suits them. It's unjust, unfair, unscientific, inconsistent and completely mood/feelings based.
No rules, no absolutes, everything is in the abstract. Nothing has any real meaning unless you want it to. It's a dangerous way to live, for yourself and others. We all have our beliefs (aka faith). At least we are consistent. You have inconsistent belief. It's empty and leads nowhere in the negative sense (destruction).

reply from: Rosalie

Fanaticism is not a lifestyle. It is a serious condition. It IS treatable, though. I suggest you see a psychologist or a psychiatrist.
You're only telling lies about me instead of listening to what I say or asking what I actually believe. I woner what that is.
Since you disrespect me, why should I respect you?
It's a two way road. YOU DO NOT GET A FREE PASS FOR YOUR INSULTS JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN. Either you treat me, my beliefs and my lifestyle with respect and I'll then by all means do the same, or you don't but in that case, expect the same treatment from me.
HAHAHAHAAAAA.
You couldn't be more wrong. That just doesn't sum up my beliefs AT ALL.
So you're lying AGAIN. I thought that was against your religious beliefs? Are you going to apologize to me for lying about me?

reply from: Rosalie

I believe that to be a logical conclusion. You can't understand the worth of life unless you can understand what life is.
My understanding of that is different from yours and you just do not understand THAT.
No, you are being self-righteous, intolerant fanatics.
I don't "make myself believe" anything. Women's reproductive rights are fundamental and they simply matter more than any supposed fetal rights.
LOL. Bold, coming from a pro-lifer, considering that pro-lifers are notorious for doing JUST that what you listed here.
Wrong again. You just don't understand my beliefs and you don't respect them because you are too wrapped in your own religion to be able to accept that there are other beliefs and they are equal to yours, whether you like it or not.

reply from: Skippy

I think the ladies here are objecting to the double standard, where men are given vasectomies with very little hassle, and women are more likely to be given a Lamborghini than a tubal ligation if they are child-free and under thirty.
I can attest to this double standard. It took me years to find a doctor to do mine, even though I was an "early articulator" and declared myself child-free at age five.

reply from: scopia19822

"think the ladies here are objecting to the double standard, where men are given vasectomies with very little hassle, and women are more likely to be given a Lamborghini than a tubal ligation if they are child-free and under thirty. "
I dont like the double standard either. I think it should be just as difficult for a man to get snipped as for a woman to get her tubes tied. However getting ones self sterilized is not a decision to be made lightly.

reply from: ChristianLott2

some people just refuse to grow up.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Rosalie, at what point does a child have the right to not be murdered?

reply from: Skippy

some people just refuse to grow up.
Do you really WANT people like me, who have ardently stated their entire lives that they do not want children, to "grow up" and change our minds? Trust me when I tell you that I am not even remotely a good candidate for parenthood. Be glad that I realize that.

reply from: scopia19822

"Do you really WANT people like me, who have ardently stated their entire lives that they do not want children, to "grow up" and change our minds? Trust me when I tell you that I am not even remotely a good candidate for parenthood. Be glad that I realize that."
I said I did not want children either when I was younger, especially after my abortion. but I changed my mind when I found out I was pregnant with my son. As I believe in not shirking my responsibilties I carried my son to term and am now a parent. Some people do not want children and should take the appropriate precautions.

reply from: scopia19822

"You missed the whole point.
Guys like CL2 regard children as a punishment. They know that dirty, naughty, filthy boys need to be punished for having sex. You hear them say it all the time around here; "I had sex and my life turned to crap. If you have sex you deserve a crappy life too! It's only fair!"
I do not see children as punishment and to view them as such IMHO is wrong. I do however see them as the consequneces of ones actions. Sex like every other action has a consequence whether it be a pregnancy or STD.

reply from: Teresa18

Following God and the Catholic Church is a lifestyle. Perhaps you want to track down every practicing Catholic, priest, bishop, cardinal, and the Pope himself. Tell them that you have diagnosed them and think they all should go to counseling. I look forward to the responses. Better get started. There are 1.13 billion of us. Of course, some in that number likely aren't practicing, so you'll have to sort it all out.
I have read all of your posts to me. Most attack me and Christians. However, I'm aware you support premarital sex, homosexual relationships, birth control, and abortion. I'm discussing with you my opposition to those things, birth control in particular.
The link is currently down. I don't even know if you were able to see it. What part of secular humanism do you disagree with?

reply from: BossMomma

Just out of curiousity, what is it that Catholics have against birth control? There's nothing in the bible against it.

reply from: 4given

Really I think it is quite sad really. You are disrespectful to others here unprovoked.
I haven't read anything close to that. I think you have a pre-conceived notion as to what you may be called or how you may be treated. Sure it happens here quite often, but I have yet to read where anyone has been quite as rude to you as you have to them.
You don't have to post here. In fact it can be a somewhat pleasant and civil environment. You certainly don't help with that. You should be concerned with learning all you can from others, as opposed to being consumed by your apparent bigotry.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Do you really WANT people like me, who have ardently stated their entire lives that they do not want children, to "grow up" and change our minds? Trust me when I tell you that I am not even remotely a good candidate for parenthood. Be glad that I realize that.
No, you need to grow up. sorry. party is over.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Sex and children are a blessings. You are dirty, naughty and filthy.

reply from: Rosalie

Whenever the woman decides she wants to continue the pregnancy. She can still change her mind, within legal time frame as it is her body, her life, her reproductive rights, her private medical decision. There's no inherent "right to life at the expensive of another", just as there is no inherent obligation for women to provide their body and risk their lives in every sense of that word if they don't want to.
You changed your mind. So? I know many who haven't. To have children or to not have them is a personal decision and you need to learn to keep your nose out of these.
See, and I find this about as disgusting as you find my position. Children should never be regarded as consequences. Children should be born because their mothers/parents want them to be born. Not as a fulfilled obligation, not as a consequence, not as a punishment.
Do you have anything against wanted children born out of love?
I know several priests and many Christians and none of them are fanatics. It's not my fault you can't tell a Christian and a religious fanatic apart.
I also find your assumption that the number of people following Christianity has any bearing on how good the religion is. That's preposterous.
Birth control is a personal, medical decision. You are naturally free to have any opinion but you do not have the right to enforce your opinions on medical decisions on others.
You probably have severe control issues and you seem to have a strange obsession with other people's sexual lives but that still does not give you the right to interfere. And if you think anyone is ever going to let anyone like you to interfere, you are insane.
I disagree on the "afterlife" point, partly on the "concept of evil" point. I don't reject spirituality or supernatural elements (though I probably understand them differently than you).
I have also never thought about secular humanism to be a sort of a religion or a way of life - or rather MY religion or MY way of life. I don't need to make a list of what I believe or what I don't believe like you. You'd have to dig deep for links that encompass all that I believe in and quite frankly, I do not feel comfortable discussing my personal beliefs with you.
As a whole, I see nothing whatsoever wrong with secular humanism, I think it's very reasonable and has many, many strong points I agree with but it's not a system I follow (though if I ever decided to, it's definitely be a good candidate because this system supports so many good things that are important to me) - which is what you were trying to say about me. And it was a lie. I don't follow any religion in the way you follow Christianity. I have no need to brand myself with a religion. You are clearly all right with blind submission to authority. I am not, never have been, never will be. I read up a little on secular humanitiy and I can very well see why you'd dislike it. It's amusing, in that strangely sad way.
What is sad is that you don't see how others treat me here; you only see how I treat them. Your ignorance or bias is not an excuse for ignoring how I am being treated here, though.
Well, then you haven't been reading this forum at all. Or you are just too good at lying to yourself.
I'm aware of that. What you are not aware of is the fact that I have been treating abominably around here and you are ignoring this for one single reason: because I am pro-choice. It is apalling, unfair and horrible but I've learned not to expect anything else from people like you. And 4Given, YOU have taught me that. You cannot for one second expect that I will treat you with respect if you treat me the way I described. You'll get the same you give. That's how it works. If you had been respectful and nice, I would've been the same.
And I have nothing to learn from people like you. I have learned a lot from very wise and smart people and I continue learning. You have nothing to offer to me.

reply from: yoda

I second that motion.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Whenever the woman decides she wants to continue the pregnancy. She can still change her mind, within legal time frame as it is her body, her life, her reproductive rights, her private medical decision.
You need to shorten that up. A baby has it's own body and it's own life.
So your short answer is 'as soon as the baby is born'?
Please answer yes or no.
I agree with that:
A baby is viable at around 4 months. Maybe we should have a law that says we can kill the mother at 4 months and keep the baby. How's that sound?
With current medical practices though (except for ectopic pregnancy) a mother's life is never in danger. Never. Let's say it again since I know so many have told you before - NEVER.
You seem to think pregnancy is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute. Would you just stop??

reply from: BossMomma

Actually the baby reaches viability at 5 months.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Actually the baby reaches viability at 6 months or 24 weeks.
"James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987 in Ottawa, Canada) was the earliest premature baby in the world. He was 128 days premature (21 weeks and 5 days ..."
If they spent all that PP money on saving babies lives they'd probably have technology to save them at one week by now.

reply from: BossMomma

Actually the baby reaches viability at 6 months or 24 weeks.
"James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987 in Ottawa, Canada) was the earliest premature baby in the world. He was 128 days premature (21 weeks and 5 days ..."
If they spent all that PP money on saving babies lives they'd probably have technology to save them at one week by now.
That is two babies, the vast majority do not survive. I made a mistake though, viability begins at 5 months and chances of survival improve the older the child gets.

reply from: Rosalie

Why, because you said so? Please.
Its body is 100% physically dependent on mine; it lives in my body, it feeds off my body, it directly affects my health and my body. My rights come first.
Can you not read? My very first sentence was:
"Whenever the woman decides she wants to continue the pregnancy."
That's a lie. Have you ever heard of, for exaple, eclampsia?
How many times have you been pregnant?
And if you NEED to make an analogy, please think up one that actually works. This is nonsense.
Yes, and you have all this news only because it was a rarity. Babies are NOT viable at 4 months, they are not nearly developed enough.

reply from: scopia19822

"You changed your mind. So? I know many who haven't. To have children or to not have them is a personal decision and you need to learn to keep your nose out of these."
We are debating abortion on this forum Rosalie. I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to yours no matter how immoral and vile it is. Maybe you need to learn what the purpose of a debate board instead of dictating that I need to learn to keep my nose of these. How many more children would be abused and allowed to be if people just "kept there nose" out of things. I will poke my nose into sitautions where I see the innocent and vulnerable being abused, exploited and murdered. Abortion is just those things. I was taught that evil must be opposed and abortion is evil so I oppose it. I love how you liberal atheist say that we need to keep our religion and opinions to ourselves as it offends you and makes you uncomfortable, but yet it ok for you to spew your disbelief in God and negative opinion of religion. Religion is a personal thing, so why not keep your nose out of mine and your disbelief to yourself.
"See, and I find this about as disgusting as you find my position. Children should never be regarded as consequences. Children should be born because their mothers/parents want them to be born. Not as a fulfilled obligation, not as a consequence, not as a punishment.
Do you have anything against wanted children born out of love? "
I have nothing against wanted children being born out of love, idealy they should be born in the confines of marriage to two loving parents. However this is not always the case. I was certainly not wanted by either of my parents, but I was wanted by my aunt and uncle who raised me and had lost a child to SIDS 6 months before I was born. They also felt it their duty and obligation to care for me as in my family we take care of our own.I think it is sad that children are viewed as punishment and burdens, nothing has reenforced this idea more than the prochoice movement.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Its body is 100% physically dependent on mine; it lives in my body, it feeds off my body, it directly affects my health and my body. My rights come first.
No one has a right to murder. You are sick for implying such.
Can you not read? My very first sentence was:
"Whenever the woman decides she wants to continue the pregnancy."
So... that's a yes?
Yet you seem to imply a woman should be allowed to murder her baby even after the baby can survive without her. You are contradicting yourself. Admit it, you just want a baby dead no matter what.
That's a lie. Have you ever heard of, for exaple, eclampsia?
This requires the death of the child?
"If the woman has not yet been delivered, steps need to be taken to stabilize the patient and deliver her speedily. This needs to be done even if the fetus is immature as the eclamptic condition is unsafe for fetus and mother."
Nope. Not always. So you are a liar.
How many times have you been pregnant?
Oh, so it is. My bad.
Yeah, it is. You need to stop making up excuses to kill babies.
Yes, and you have all this news only because it was a rarity. Babies are NOT viable at 4 months, they are not nearly developed enough.
And the only reason why is that science has progressed - and will continue to progress. Money should be spent helping babies and mothers survive, not murdering the babies and wounding and traumatizing them.
You are pessimistic and self absorbed. Try looking out for someone else for a change.

reply from: scopia19822

"Its body is 100% physically dependent on mine; it lives in my body, it feeds off my body, it directly affects my health and my body. My rights come first."
It all about ME ME ME!!!! Me first ! Me first! So what about your daughter, she depends on you on for her basic needs, like my son depends on me. Being a parent affects my mental and physical health and my body as well, but my son comes first not me. It was that way from the moment I found out I was pregnant with him and will be that way until he leaves my house for college. I am adult, when found out I was pregnant I stood up the plate and took care of my responsibilty, that is what an adult does. An adult puts there children born or unborn first. You sound like a teenager who thinks the universe revolves around them.I knew when I opened my legs that there was a chance that I could get pregnant even with protection, but I was an adult I knew that with sex comes responisbilties and consequences. If I could not have cared for my son I would have done the adult thing and made sure that he was placed in a good home with an adoptive family that would love him, not rush off the local shack butcher and take the cowards way out. That is what abortion is the cowards way out. It takes a brave women to carry, birth and surrender her child for adoption. It takes a selfless women to do such a things and when she has other children chances are she will be a good mother who will do anything for her children. I cant say I would hold that true with a woman who aborted for purely selfish reasons.

reply from: 4given

What is sad is that you don't see how others treat me here; you only see how I treat them. Your ignorance or bias is not an excuse for ignoring how I am being treated here, though.
Stop with the games first off. You haven't been "treated" poorly. In fact I see you insulting poster after poster because of your ignorance, disdain and bigotry. I am bias when it comes to the unborn.
Come again. So anyone that doesn't agree with you is a liar? Stop wasting my/our time. You clearly have some issues. You read what you want to. You try to anger others with your pro-abort taunting. It is quite sad actually. I can't imagine another being that I know (that is also a pro-abort)personally, being so nasty over their right to kill.
Yeah. I am aware of how you are treating others here.
Of course you want to make it personal. You are the aggressor here. What is wrong with you that you don't realize that?

Come again? I was respectful, and continue to be. You are truly blind if you don't see the beast the abortion industry has made of you. Killing innocent beings must be high up on your list though. What again is your reason for posting here?
Of course not. I won't help you or others justify their selfish abortions. I have learned some from the pro-aborts/choicers that post here. You affirm much of what I already knew. Pity. You truly need to take a look at yourself and how you treat others. It isn't a surprise to me that you wouldn't extend any sympathy or gratitude to the innocent life in the womb. Pro-choice is ugly. You are pro-choice fugly.

reply from: Rosalie

When it comes to pregnancy, I happen to believe that evaluating my health as well as other factors that tie in is important. My health and my family comes first.
Women and fetuses are not equal. The fetus is fully physically dependent on the woman.
I would very much prefer if you had not mentioned my family in your arguments, to be honest.
My daughter always comes first. When we have decided to have a child, our priorities shifted. She comes first to the both of us. That's how we believe it should be. She is more dear to us than anything in the world, there's nothing we wouldn't do for her. And you know, the quality of her life also matters to us. It's not about toys or clothes, it's about education, her getting proper medical treatment when needed - that's what it's about.
I find it insulting to compare her to an embryo or a fetus. They are not the same, never have been, never will be. Just like fetuses and women are not equals, fetuses and born kids are not equals, either.
You just like to throw around insults because you don't understand what I'm saying. How sad. But yeah, by all means keep trying to insult me. You can't do that.
"Opened my legs". I find this figure of speech offensive but it fits you because you consider it something wrong, something you should be punished for, something that has consequences you need to accept whether you like it or not, no matter what happens after that.
There is no obligation for women to remain pregnant against their will.
Adoption is a parenting choice. And just because you don't consider abortion to be the responsible thing to do doesn't mean it's a fact. It still remains only your opinion.
I consider this a very misplaced use of "bravery".
Well, the second part if your opinion but whatever. Ok, I'm glad you have nothing against wanted children being born out of love.
Sadly, no, it is not.
I'm sorry about that.
Quite the contrary. It is YOUR "pro-life" movement that keeps screaming that women should keep their legs closed if they don't want to suffer the consequences. These are your words, not words of any pro-choicer I know.
To a woman who does not wish to have children, an unwanted pregnancy will be a burden. It's just a fact.

reply from: Rosalie

Abortion is not murder. You are sick for implying that women should have no say about what will severely affect their body, health and life for 40 weeks.
Wow, you really are a moron.
For the third time, and this is the last time I am answering this question. My answer to your question is:
"Whenever the woman decides she wants to continue the pregnancy."
Women are not murdering babies. Well, some are, by they go straight to prison or an asylum.
I will admit no such thing because it's not true and you are nothing but a horrible liar.
You said:
"With current medical practices though (except for ectopic pregnancy) a mother's life is never in danger. "
Which is a lie.
Stop lying, please.
I need no excuse to know that I have the right to make my own reproductive, medical decision and that I have the right to refuse to sustain any person that lives inside of my body and feeds off it against my will.
Your claim is false. Admit it.
You know absolutely nothing about me but you still love to lie about me. Well, that explains what kind of a person you are quite well.

reply from: Rosalie

I have, but I'm not surprised you can't see beyond your bias.
I never said that. I said that either you are lying or you haven't been paying attention to the comments I have been receiving.
I'm not. You choose to read my posts. You are very free to just scroll down.
I don't, but thanks for your fake concern.
False. I'm not taunting anyone, I'm standing up for my most basic rights.
Wow, I've made a typo. Oh yes, feel free to verbally stone me over it. I don't expect anything else.
You're so funny.
We clearly have a very different opinion of what is and isn't respectful, if you really think that.
What abortion industry?
Oh yeah, I know. Women thinking for themselves, women making their own choices, women standing up for their most basic rights - that scares you so much that you have to insult them. I see it.
I don't kill any innocent beings.
I have said that about 50 times already. If you don't pay attention that's your problem.
There's no need to justify abortions.
It doesn't show.
Likewise!
I treat others on the internet just the way they treat me.
I extend all my sympathy to born, living human beings who suffer and who need help. I am never going to interfere with women's basic rights.
Aww, do you think go to highschool? Is this where your attitude and childish insults come from?

reply from: ChristianLott2

If a baby is viable and you don't want the baby, just allow them to deliver the baby alive instead of dead.
What's wrong with that?

reply from: yoda

There's just no "thrill" in it for a dedicated baby killer.

reply from: Teresa18

Have you talked to the priests about birth control. Catholic priests are supposed to follow Church doctrine which is opposed to birth control. If I am a fanatic in your eyes because I follow the teachings of my Church, then so be it.
I agree. A religion is either right or wrong. It is not based on the number of followers.
When did I stop anyone from getting birth control? I am saying I am morally opposed to it.
I'm not the one that believes the lives of over 1.3 million children a year need to be controlled by death. I am citing my moral beliefs on contraception on a forum that deals with such issues.
That could slide you into the unitarian universalist category possibly. It's quite similar to secular humanism.
Belief.net lists every religion, and they have it listed as one. The Supreme Court ruled it a religion in 1961. A federal court also declared atheism to be a religion.

reply from: yoda

Excellent point, well made.
The control freaks who want to kill babies just don't want anyone to interfere with their "fun".

reply from: ChristianLott2

Apparently. She said explicitly:
So if the baby can survive without you (is viable), what's wrong with just letting it out alive rather than dead?

reply from: ChristianLott2

I'm not the one that believes the lives of over 1.3 million children a year need to be controlled by death. I am citing my moral beliefs on contraception on a forum that deals with such issues.
Well, everyone who votes pro life are voting for that interference. As Theresa noted, you are the one who wants to murder children. Stop interfering in THEIR lives and we won't interfere in yours.

reply from: scopia19822

"When it comes to pregnancy, I happen to believe that evaluating my health as well as other factors that tie in is important. My health and my family comes first. "
Once again it is all about you. To you a wanted child is a valued commodity an unwanted child is a burden to be thrown away like common trash
"Women and fetuses are not equal. The fetus is fully physically dependent on the woman. "
Bovigne Scatology! All human beings born and unborn are equal. A born child , especially an infant is just as dependent on mom for their survivial as they are in the womb. Especiially in primative cultures where the only available nourishment to an infant is its mothers milk
"I would very much prefer if you had not mentioned my family in your arguments, to be honest. "
Why does it bother you so? You have mentioned her in some of your posts. My point was she depends on you for her basic needs like she depended on you inuterto. You really are arrogant when you think you have a right to tell people what they can and cant say in their post, not just on this but anything
"My daughter always comes first. When we have decided to have a child, our priorities shifted. She comes first to the both of us. That's how we believe it should be. She is more dear to us than anything in the world, there's nothing we wouldn't do for her. And you know, the quality of her life also matters to us. It's not about toys or clothes, it's about education, her getting proper medical treatment when needed - that's what it's about. "
I know this all too well. My son wasnt planned, I pefer to think of him as an unplanned blessing. Once again when a child and planned its a valuable commodity to be cherised, protected and loved. But if it isnt it can be disposed of as mere trash.
"I find it insulting to compare her to an embryo or a fetus. They are not the same, never have been, never will be. Just like fetuses and women are not equals, fetuses and born kids are not equals, either."
That is you ignorant opinion . I value human life both born and unborn. All are equal in the eyes of God and dont tell me to shut about God. I find it insulting that you think any human beings no matter what stage of life or development they are in is superior or inferior to the other.
"You just like to throw around insults because you don't understand what I'm saying. How sad. But yeah, by all means keep trying to insult me. You can't do that. "
If you take it as insult fine with me. I understand all too perfectly what you are saying. It is all about you , me whats in it for me. Sad that our society is so self centered.
""Opened my legs". I find this figure of speech offensive but it fits you because you consider it something wrong, something you should be punished for, something that has consequences you need to accept whether you like it or not, no matter what happens after that. "
Well to damn bad if you find it offensive, so is some of the stuff that you spew. I dont think sex is something a person should be "punished" for. But every action one takes has consequences, were ever taught the concept of cause and effect in school? I chose to lay down with a man knowing that pregnancy was a possible outcome, it was a risk to having sex even with birth control. I was prepared to take that risk by choosing to have sex. Just like if a person has a too many to drink at the bar and chooses to drive drunk their are consequnces for that action and if something happens they have to face it.

"Adoption is a parenting choice. And just because you don't consider abortion to be the responsible thing to do doesn't mean it's a fact. It still remains only your opinion."
You are a parent the moment you get pregnant or get someone pregnant. Having an abortion doesnt automatically make you a non parent.
"I consider this a very misplaced use of "bravery". "
Of course you would. It is a very scary thing for some women to face a crisis pregnancy and then choose the path of carrying her child and surrendering it for adoption. A lot harder road to take than simply going to the abortion clinic and paying money and taking the easy way out. A brave person doesnt take the easy way out. So a women who surrenders her child for adoption is the braver woman IMHO.

"Sadly, no, it is not."
But that does not make it right to abort them.
"Quite the contrary. It is YOUR "pro-life" movement that keeps screaming that women should keep their legs closed if they don't want to suffer the consequences. These are your words, not words of any pro-choicer I know. "
You have twisted my words around, but you love to do that alot. It is called being responsible.
"To a woman who does not wish to have children, an unwanted pregnancy will be a burden. It's just a fact."
Of course it can be, but just because she carries the child doesnt mean she has to be a parent. SHe can have the baby surrender it for adoption and then get on with her life.

reply from: Rosalie

I actually did, that one time... He said that according to his religion, he is not supposed to support contraception. But if it comes to choice between abortion and birth control, he'd rather people use contraception than have abortions or unwanted children.
Following the teachings of your church does not make you a fanatic. Trying to push your beliefs on others and insult them if they don't accept them makes you a fanatic.
That's what I was just talking about. It is not for you to decide whether OTHERS should use it. If YOU are morally opposed to it, don't use it.
You are not supposed to make choices for anyone else by attempting to control their lives and opinions because of your religion. That's exactly the difference between a religious person and a fanatic I was talking about.
"Controlled by death"? What?
It's not about death. It's about women's reproductive choices.
WHY do you feel the need to assign a religion to me?
I don't like the idea of blindly following ANY religion. I don't need it. The love I feel for my family is my driving force. I don't need to define myself as being a mamber of this or that church. That's not who I am or what I support.
Ok. I just said that I personally never thought of it that way.

reply from: scopia19822

"Following the teachings of your church does not make you a fanatic. Trying to push your beliefs on others and insult them if they don't accept them makes you a fanatic."
Pot calling the kettle black. You insult women who do not ascribe to your feminist pro abortion worldview. So I would be correct in saying that you are a proabortion fanatic.

reply from: Rosalie

I do no such thing. I am standing up for my rights and rights of every woman. I am NOT trying to convince anyone to have an abortion. That's just a lie you need to repeat over and over so you yourself could believe it.

reply from: scopia19822

"I do no such thing. I am standing up for my rights and rights of every woman. I am NOT trying to convince anyone to have an abortion. That's just a lie you need to repeat over and over so you yourself could believe it."
No you are trying to convince everyone that abortion is an inaliabale right for all women and that is not so. Well not every woman including this one wants that "right". And those of us who are not feminist and prochoice are wrong and idiots.

reply from: Rosalie

It is. You don't have to like it, you don't have to use that right but it is a right nonetheless. No one is forcing you to have an abortion. That's not what pro-choicers do. But you would have to be intelligent to understand that, and I've lost my hope for you in this department.

reply from: scopia19822

Me think aborshun is murdaa.

reply from: Rosalie

Which part of my health, life and well-being of my family do you not understand?
If so, I will proudly be what you call "selfish". I don't get another body, or another shot at being healthy. And while no one but fetuses matter to you, I am irreplaceable for my family. So I intend to stay there. For them and for myself.
Call me selfish all you want. I call it unconditional love and respect for my own health and body. And nothing in the world will ever convince me that this is a bad thing.
Did you mean bovine?
In any case, please provide proof that fetus is not physically dependent on the woman. I'm waiting.
I don't believe that. Just like I don't believe that because a fetus has a DNA it automatically has some right to be born. It doesn't.
Infants are SOCIALLY dependable on ANY person who can take care of them. They are NOT physically attached to anyone (and thus affecting their health and lives). I wonder which part of this is so difficult for you to understand.
It bothers me because it is my personal life and therefore I see no reason why it should be dragged into this debate. Oh yeah, I forgot, you have no respect for anything and anyone but fetuses.
And seriously, read before you reply to me. I have POLITELY asked you to keep my family out of your warped arguments. I never tried to dictate what you should or shouldn't say.
Unplanned doesn't mean unwanted. And unwanted doesn't mean it's automatically going to be aborted. That's just your propaganda.
That's bold, coming from you.
Talk about your delusions all you want. But don't tell me to give into them.
I have tried to explain that to you earlier in this post. I would rather be what you call selfish and self-centered.
You sound like a haughty, squabbling high-schooler sometimes. And you have no respect for women. That much is clear.
I have posted about viewing children as punishment/consequence somewhere else and I'm not going to repeat it. I will only say that I find it incredibly sad and wrong to view children as consequence. I'm proud that my child was born out of love; and I can guarantee you that so will all our other children. None of them will be just a mere consequence, an obligation. I view that as quite disgusting.
Let me use your own quote: that's just your ignorant opinion.
It's weird, though - everyone started referring to me as mom of my child only after I gave birth. Were you called mommy all through your pregnancy? Weird. Where do you live again?
It's funny how you can't refute the fact that it's your movement that shames women for having sex "out of wedlock". Not that you could ever refute it, everyone knows it's true.
Make up your mind. A while ago, in this very post, you were claiming that you are a parent ever since conception. And suddenly it's all different. I wonder why.
Maybe it's the logical fact that the ability to breed does not make anyone a parent.
Why should I care what you think about one of my legal reproductive options?

reply from: scopia19822

Rosalie you are a lost cause, beyond human help and I am not one to to give up so easily on my fellow human beings. I care about women more than what you think and I firmly believe that women deserve better than abortion. We are not equal in our society in practice. You still have 3rd parties like employers , husbands and boyfriends and judgmental family members who pressure and coerce women into abortions on a daily basis because her being a mother would be an inconvience to them. You can go ahead and live in your delusional fanstasy world that abortion is the all and end all to the equality of women you are sadly mistaken. What I am saying is the cold hard truth of how it really works in America. It has been another tool for men, especially those who are abusive to their women to abuse and exploit them. Call a CPC and ask if they have post abortion support groups, ask if you can come and observe one. They will let you in most likely as long as you agree to keep confidental what you hear. You claim to be an open minded modern liberated woman and that abortion is postive for alot of women who have had them, then why not hear the other side if you are so open minded. Listen to the pain and grief of those women who have lost a child through abortion whether by their own freewill or through coercion. If a fetus is so insigninficant than why do they have support groups for women who have lost a pregnancy or stillbirth? The fetus is human and deserves to be born. I am sorry you think they are commoditys to be either birthed or thrown away.

reply from: Rosalie

Any insult you think up is a praise because your mind is so warped and your heart so empty and devoid of love, compassion and empathy that you cannot possibly have a grasp of reality.
That's not caring for women. That's pushing your beliefs on others.
How do you know that I've never done anything like that? You don't know anything about me. You just assume and insult.
Because they wanted their children and they lost something they wanted and already loved.
That's your opinion. There's no reason why it should automatically "deserve" anything and it certainly does not have some automatic right to be born.
You said that.

reply from: scopia19822

"Any insult you think up is a praise because your mind is so warped and your heart so empty and devoid of love, compassion and empathy that you cannot possibly have a grasp of reality."
If that is how you want to take it then fine. I have more empathy, compassion and love for my fellow human beings born and unborn in one finger than you have in your entire body. I will pray for you Rosalie, that is all I know to do for you. Anyone who thinks it is ok to kill a human being for no good reason is the one with the warped mind and black heart.

reply from: Rosalie

I have yet to come across a statement by you that would show any empathy, compassion or love.
Boohoo, so pray for me. I don't care. It's got about the same effect as if you were talking to your frying pan.
And yeah, keep trying to insult me all you want. I don't care. People like YOU cannot insult me.

reply from: scopia19822

"Boohoo, so pray for me. I don't care. It's got about the same effect as if you were talking to your frying pan. "
Oh really? I prayed for Bossmomma even when she got nasty with me and believe me she had you beat in that department. She had a change of heart of and now me and her get along real well, even though we dont see eye to eye on everything. I am sorry that she lost her son in the process of her conversion. We have both lost children and that is one thing we have in common. I dont take credit for that outcome as I believe that was entirely Gods doing, but I like to think that my prayers helped. Prayer does work and studies have been proving that people who are prayed for are more likely to recover from surgery and illness. The 1st one was done at UNC or Duke. And this made all of the national news. The other by a cardiologist in LA whos wrote many books on spirtual husband and heart disease.


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