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Christmas

for the children?

by: Witness

Christmas Without Me?
By Betty Baker Bailey
You're planning Christmas without me, whatever Christmas is.
I've heard talk of mistletoe and buying gifts for Liz.
You're planning Christmas without me. I wonder where I'll go.
They say it's just too early for me to even know.
You're planning Christmas without me, though it's not too far away.
Don't you know that I'm not ready to come outside and play?
What are Christmas bells?
Who are Santa's elves?
Are there presents for me?
Is snow really cold?
Why is Grandma old?
I can hardly wait to see.
You're planning Christmas without me. You never say my name.
All I hear is how my Daddy is the one to blame.
You're planning Christmas without me. You act like I'm not here.
I think this Doctor Coldheart is someone I should fear.
You're planning Christmas without me, yet you seem to be so sad.
I would think our first holiday would make you really glad.
What's a tree-top star?
When's the craft bizarre?
Are there manger scenes about?
What's a Christmas tree?
Just who is this He
This Christmas is all about?
You're planning Christmas without me. I wish it was not so.
Without a place inside you, I don't know where I'll go.
You're planning Christmas without me, as if I never was.
I do not think I'll like what this Coldheart doctor does.
You're planning Christmas without me. What'd I do that was so bad?
If you'll just let me stay with you, I'll never make you mad.
Hear that Christmas bell?
How do cookies smell?
Will I get to taste fudge?
How do reindeer fly?
Do you think that I
Am just useless human sludge?
You're planning Christmas without me. I heard you had to pay
To get that Coldheart doctor to take my life away.
You're planning Christmas without me. Do you not hear my cries?
Don't you know I love you, Mommy. Can't we compromise?
You're planning Christmas without me, and I don't have any say.
You're going to let him hurt me. I'll not see Christmas Day.
What are Christmas lights?
Why are "women's rights"
More important than me?
Did you deck the halls
With some Christmas balls?
Oh, how much I'd like to see!
You're planning Christmas without me. Why must it be this way?
You think the babe of Christmas intended me for prey?
You're planning Christmas without me. That must be Him who cries.
Guess you can't hear Him either, when list'ning to their lies.
You're planning Christmas without me. I had hoped you'd change your mind.
How can you think things'll be better once you leave me behind?
How do Chestnuts roast?
Will you make a toast
To welcome your New Year?
What does paper wrap?
Think I'll take a nap.
Why do you not hold me dear?
You're planning Christmas without me. I'll miss you, Mommy, dear.
You'll never know who I was. My voice you'll never hear.
You're planning Christmas without me. You'll never hold me close.
You won't be kissing my cheeks; that's what I'll miss the most.
You're planning Christmas without me, though I fight to stay alive.
If only you had loved me, too, so that I could survive.
What's a Christmas wreath?
Are there gifts beneath
Your decorated tree?
On some lonely night
Do you think you might
Ever even think of me?

reply from: AshMarie88

So sad. Thanks for sharing.

reply from: faithman

Could these be, the word of three, who's killer demands to walk free? No justice for occupants of the womb, who's sanctuary became a tomb.

reply from: yoda

That's the question that is never answered........

reply from: faithman

That's the question that is never answered........
... had the misfortune of being procreated in a cold blooded killer.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I believe Betty writes very fine poems. This one about the unloved child is outstanding.
The tag-team duo of faithman and yodavater seems to have no mercy.

reply from: faithman

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.

reply from: faithman

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.
Your are an engima wrapped inside of a puzzle.
The battle over abortion in now lost. The right to choose to kill a young child will become an enshrined unassailable right. People are mindless sheep and will accept this. People's beliefs and actions are based on the educational system; what they are taught by peers, TV, schools, society, etc. You cannot overturn the evil direction man has decided to go. So forget that Oakley slogan; "Annie get your gun."
The Way that seems right to man leads to death. In his Path are death, misery and horror, there is no peace in it.
The Bible is about the right Way, the right Path. Man is choosing the wrong Way, the wrong Path. This started in the garden of eden.

reply from: faithman

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.
Your are an engima wrapped inside of a puzzle.
The battle over abortion in now lost. The right to choose to kill a young child will become an enshrined unassailable right. People are mindless sheep and will accept this. People's beliefs and actions are based on the educational system; what they are taught by peers, TV, schools, society, etc. You cannot overturn the evil direction man has decided to go. So forget that Oakley slogan; "Annie get your gun."
The Way that seems right to man leads to death. In his Path are death, misery and horror, there is no peace in it.
The Bible is about the right Way, the right Path. Man is choosing the wrong Way, the wrong Path. This started in the garden of eden.
Don't confuse what I will not condemn, and http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/?action=view¤t=allie.jpg. If you choose to give up, be my guest. But I always triumph in Christ. IAAP is changing many hearts even as we speak.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.
Your are an engima wrapped inside of a puzzle.
The battle over abortion in now lost. The right to choose to kill a young child will become an enshrined unassailable right. People are mindless sheep and will accept this. People's beliefs and actions are based on the educational system; what they are taught by peers, TV, schools, society, etc. You cannot overturn the evil direction man has decided to go. So forget that Oakley slogan; "Annie get your gun."
The Way that seems right to man leads to death. In his Path are death, misery and horror, there is no peace in it.
The Bible is about the right Way, the right Path. Man is choosing the wrong Way, the wrong Path. This started in the garden of eden.
Don't confuse what I will not condemn, and http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/?action=view¤t=allie.jpg. If you choose to give up, be my guest. But I always triumph in Christ. IAAP is changing many hearts even as we speak.
A reminder of why the children will fail:
Jeremiah 16:19 ""Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthless and unprofitable things."

reply from: faithman

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.
Your are an engima wrapped inside of a puzzle.
The battle over abortion in now lost. The right to choose to kill a young child will become an enshrined unassailable right. People are mindless sheep and will accept this. People's beliefs and actions are based on the educational system; what they are taught by peers, TV, schools, society, etc. You cannot overturn the evil direction man has decided to go. So forget that Oakley slogan; "Annie get your gun."
The Way that seems right to man leads to death. In his Path are death, misery and horror, there is no peace in it.
The Bible is about the right Way, the right Path. Man is choosing the wrong Way, the wrong Path. This started in the garden of eden.
Don't confuse what I will not condemn, and http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/?action=view¤t=allie.jpg. If you choose to give up, be my guest. But I always triumph in Christ. IAAP is changing many hearts even as we speak.
A reminder of why the children will fail:
Jeremiah 16:19 ""Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthless and unprofitable things."
My inheritance is not of this world. My inheritance is of the one who over came it. Part of that is assured victory. So gain saying is just so much religious water off this ole duck's back.

reply from: Nulono

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I was born on Christmas eve, the first child my mother gave birth to... but not the first she conceived.

reply from: Witness

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
First, thank you. Second, are you saying I'm sympathetic to baby killers? If so, you missed the point.

reply from: Witness

Y thank you. I resemble that remark.
When people say you are merciless or hateful you acknowledge that you resemble that remark?!? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Are you the real faithman? I mean, it seems as if you are denigrating faithman. However, you may wear it as a badge of honor that you are merciless and hate even those who are slightly sympathetic to baby-killers.
Think what you wish, you will anyway.
Your are an engima wrapped inside of a puzzle.
The battle over abortion in now lost.
The battle isn't over. Obama is President, not God. God hasn't abandoned us. Remember Joshua and the battle of Jericho? Read it again . . . we win.

reply from: Rosalie

Fetuses do not feel anything, they have no knowledge, no emotions. It's the born children who suffer every single day. Even at Christmas. It's them who deserve our every thought and anything we can spare.

reply from: BossMomma

Any child deserves our thoughts and prayers no matter their location. And yes, an unborn child in latter stages can feel and even respond to stimulation, check your facts.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Witness said:
The battle isn't over. Obama is President, not God. God hasn't abandoned us. Remember Joshua and the battle of Jericho? Read it again . . . we win.
My response:
God says he has turned his back on us for a moment. While man charts the course, determines the path to take, and goes on the way he has chosen, we lose.
Yes, Psalm 2 says that ultimately God will install the Lord as King in Zion even as the nations try to prevent that from happening. When Christ rules, victory will be assured.
The installing of Christ as King will take place in less than 300 years; if the Hebrew calender is correct. The exact time is not known because the allotted time for man's work will have to be cut short to avoid the extinction of all flesh. Man is charting a course for death and extinction, don't you know? Weapons of mass destruction will accumulate.

reply from: yoda

I have plenty of mercy. I'm directing it to the millions of babies being killed.
To whom do you direct your "mercy"?

reply from: yoda

Then why are you still here?
As far as I'm concerned, that is irrelevant anyway. My conscience tells me to go on helping those who are trying to stop the slaughter, no matter what the eventual outcome. It's my conscience that directs me, not yours or anyone else's prediction of the eventual "winner".

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The Bad News:
James 4:1-3 "From whence come wars and fightings among you? Come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members. Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain; ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."
The Good News:
Luke 2:10-11, 14 "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior, who is Christ the Lord....Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth peace among those with whom he is pleased!" (English Standard Version, ESV)
The bad news is we fight and war and have not known peace; only death results from men's lusts which lead to war. But the angel Gabriel announced that there can be peace on earth, resulting in life, and Christ is the Savior Lord that will lead the people into peaceful co-existence.
This good news is for those with whom God is pleased. Just before Christ's Sacrifice, God said of Jesus, "With You I am well pleased." We likewise are commanded to follow Christ's example and walk in His steps. We are required to also overcome. For those whom God is pleased with the result will be: peace on earth among those with whom He is pleased.
Today it was announced that a murdering pedophile was responsible for the murder of John Walsh' six year old son. Because no murderer may inherit eternal life, the above verse was not for that person, for in him God was not well pleased.
For those who continue to be selfish lustful murderers there is no peace; there is no rest for the wicked.
Another murdering pedophile Muhammad claimed the angel Gabriel gave him a message. But God does not hear the prayers of sinners, and certainly would never give a message to a sinner. The Bible says Holy men (righteous behaving) spoke as the Holy Spirit moved them. God works through decent people, not murderers like Muhammad.

reply from: Witness

Originally posted by: GodsLaw4Us2Live
Witness said:
The battle isn't over. Obama is President, not God. God hasn't abandoned us. Remember Joshua and the battle of Jericho? Read it again . . . we win.
My response:
God says he has turned his back on us for a moment. While man charts the course, determines the path to take, and goes on the way he has chosen, we lose.
My response:
God has not turned His back on those who serve Him diligently in truth. Yes, this nation stands to be punished and that punishment will be severe, because we have chosen death and love of self over Him. However, we can still win, if we will behave like those who took Jericho: Put Him first, seek His will, guidance, direction and Show Up at the battleground in the Spirit -- as in, literally go to the clinics.
Don't be like those who saw the giants and gave up. This is no different. The giants we face and the walls that keep us from winning are no stronger than those Joshua sought to bring down. Faith was the key then and Faith is the key now.

reply from: Witness

My Comment:
The point of poetry such as this is that the children are people and that no segment of society should be allowed to kill another -- especially just for the sake of convenience. Anyone who has really watched a sonogram of a child in the womb -- how they react to outside influence, how they smile, suck their thumbs -- should realize this to be true. Unfortunately, we have people like Rosalie who can't see the bus that's running them down. So, I write. Sometimes it's like a lightbulb coming on in the unenlightened heart. I know because I've gotten letters from ex-pro-aborts who actually converted after reading these things.
Just to be clear, I took no offense at Yodavater or Faithman's comments, because my intent is to humanize the children, not soft-peddle the killing.
(Edited for clarity on what I'm saying about this part of the discussion.)

reply from: Witness

Brain waves have been tracked at 40 days, Rosalie. And they will do everything they can to avoid pain. You, obviously, would benefit from watching "The Silent Scream". Your science is not just off, it's antiquated.

reply from: Witness

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.

reply from: faithman

I have plenty of mercy. I'm directing it to the millions of babies being killed.
To whom do you direct your "mercy"?
Mercy can be exstended when justice is established. Justice breaks the fallow ground of an empty totally depraved heart. Mercy is useless until justice is done. Mercy of the resurrection is useless to those who have not met the justice of the cross. I have no simpathy for the baby killers. And the most merciful thing I can do for them is lay the rod of justice to their foolish backs, till they lay broken and contrite at the feet of mercy. So insted of mouthing off about something you obviously don't understand, just do your job, and I will do mine.

reply from: faithman

My Comment:
The point of poetry such as this is that the children are people and that no segment of society should be allowed to kill another -- especially just for the sake of convenience. Anyone who has really watched a sonogram of a child in the womb -- how they react to outside influence, how they smile, suck their thumbs -- should realize this to be true. Unfortunately, we have people like Rosalie who can't see the bus that's running them down. So, I write. Sometimes it's like a lightbulb coming on in the unenlightened heart. I know because I've gotten letters from ex-pro-aborts who actually converted after reading these things.
Just to be clear, I took no offense at Yodavater or Faithman's comments, because my intent is to humanize the children, not soft-peddle the killing.
(Edited for clarity on what I'm saying about this part of the discussion.)
Niether do I take offence at your plea of mercy to the hard of heart. We may not completely understand each other at times, but justice and mercy work hand in hand. One is useless without the other. The terrible day of the Lord is at hand. He comes with a rod of iron, and a 2 edge sword to exicute justice upon the whole world. He served and suffered for the way of escape. But don't confuse His return with the act of His merciful sacrifice. He didn't flinch when He cast adam out of the garden. And He will no flinch when He casts the unrepentant into Hell. True evangelism is not "God just loves you the way you are". That is a lie from the pit. The truth of the matter is the terrible day of the Lord is at hand. The viles of His wrath stand ready to be poured out upon all evil doers. But He offers the way of escape. Only those who lay broken and contrite before Him, without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me. Until one hits the wall of justice, and lays broken on the first paving stone of escape [the fear of the Lord], they are in the position of being showered with God's wrath, and eternally seperated from the love and mercy that they so desperatly need. I do no one any favor soft soaping that message. Every knee shall bow, and every tounge shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. You can do it now, but you will most assurredly do it latter. For when we close our eyes for the last time, you do not want to here these words after that confession, "depart from me I never knew you". Those are the rules reguardless if you like it or not.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.

reply from: carolemarie

That is sad for your mom....but we are glad you are here. Happy upcoming B-day!

reply from: carolemarie

That was very touching.

reply from: yoda

Thank you. We need more like you to stand up for the victims, not for the perpetrators of the violence of abortion.

reply from: Rosalie

Brain waves have been tracked at 40 days, Rosalie. And they will do everything they can to avoid pain. You, obviously, would benefit from watching "The Silent Scream". Your science is not just off, it's antiquated.
This comment has been amusing me for days, you have no idea. To spout incredibly dumb, ignorant and archaic propaganda and claim that my "science is off" is just too funny.
1. I HAVE seen The Silent Scream. It was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen. It was all propaganda, lies - kind of amusing to watch, really, because you could just tell that there WILL be idiots who will believe it.
No intelligent, educated person considers that piece of crap legitimate.
2. 98% About 98% of abortions happen during the 1st trimester. The fetus is not nearly developed enough to actually feel pain. Even in the second trimester, the cerebral cortex is not as developed as in a newborn/late third trimester child.

reply from: Rosalie

Any child deserves our thoughts and prayers no matter their location. And yes, an unborn child in latter stages can feel and even respond to stimulation, check your facts.
Why are you making up things I didn't say and respond to those made-up comments?
About 98% of abortions happen during the 1st trimester. The fetus is not nearly developed enough to actually feel pain. I never said anything about fetuses responding to stimuli - ffs READ what I said, don't make up your own stuff to respond to.
And for your information, I wasn't talking only about pain. I was talking about cold, hunger, FEAR. About the quality of life of born children. I know you probably hate it but it's actually really important to me and to many people around me.

reply from: Witness

Thank you. We need more like you to stand up for the victims, not for the perpetrators of the violence of abortion.
You're welcome.

reply from: BossMomma

Any child deserves our thoughts and prayers no matter their location. And yes, an unborn child in latter stages can feel and even respond to stimulation, check your facts.
Why are you making up things I didn't say and respond to those made-up comments?
About 98% of abortions happen during the 1st trimester. The fetus is not nearly developed enough to actually feel pain. I never said anything about fetuses responding to stimuli - ffs READ what I said, don't make up your own stuff to respond to.
And for your information, I wasn't talking only about pain. I was talking about cold, hunger, FEAR. About the quality of life of born children. I know you probably hate it but it's actually really important to me and to many people around me.
You stated that a fetus feels nothing, knows nothing etc. you didn't state what age the fetus was. A 32 week fetus is capable of responding to light, temprature, familiar voices (recognition in utero). A newborn has about the same emotional capacity as a late term fetus, are you joining JHR in thinking it is ethical to kill newborns based on their limited mental capacity?

reply from: lukesmom

Actually there is no scientific PROOF of that. There are hypothes' and opinions but no ACTUAL proof. At one time scientific opinions were that the earth was flat. Funny how scientific opinions can change or be proven wrong.

reply from: Teresa18

That was beautiful, Witness. It was very sad.

reply from: Witness

Thank you. Although I have been known to write light-heartted poetry, if it concerns the children, it is usually very sad. My heart mourns them too much for it to be otherwise.

reply from: Witness

That was very touching.
Thank you. I'm glad I found it in time.

reply from: Witness

Brain waves have been tracked at 40 days, Rosalie. And they will do everything they can to avoid pain. You, obviously, would benefit from watching "The Silent Scream". Your science is not just off, it's antiquated.
This comment has been amusing me for days, you have no idea. To spout incredibly dumb, ignorant and archaic propaganda and claim that my "science is off" is just too funny.
1. I HAVE seen The Silent Scream. It was the biggest piece of crap I have ever seen. It was all propaganda, lies - kind of amusing to watch, really, because you could just tell that there WILL be idiots who will believe it.
No intelligent, educated person considers that piece of crap legitimate.
2. 98% About 98% of abortions happen during the 1st trimester. The fetus is not nearly developed enough to actually feel pain. Even in the second trimester, the cerebral cortex is not as developed as in a newborn/late third trimester child.
When people choose to be ignorant, they will be just so. I've watched many a sonogram. To say they are unthinking, unfeeling, is to say that no person feels or thinks. With your attitude, I'd say I struck a nerve. So here's a timeline to chew on:
Heart beats regularly at 24 days.
Brain waves recorded at 40 days.
Responds to touch during 2nd month.
At 9 weeks ALL the structures necessary for pain sensation are functioning.
During the 3 month -- sucks thumb and hears
At 18 weeks the baby is complete; needing only nourishment, warmth and opportunity to grow.
22 weeks old preborns have survived. (I've actually heard of younger, but it is rare.)
Tiller routinely -- as in every week -- kills children in the 2nd to 3rd trimester. I've seen them go in almost unable to walk they were so close to delivery. You're talking to the wrong person when you spout that nonsense about abortions being primarily a 1st trimester thing. He puts no time limits on the slaughter. No matter how hard you cling to those lies you love, they have no bearing on what's really happening.

reply from: yoda

Willful ignorance is the ugliest of all human conditions.

reply from: Rosalie

Willful ignorance is the ugliest of all human conditions.
As a "pro-lifer", you would know all about that.

reply from: Witness

Willful ignorance is the ugliest of all human conditions.
As a "pro-lifer", you would know all about that.
So, when the truth hits home try abuse as a defence?

reply from: AshMarie88

I vote to "abort" JHR and Rosalie out of this forum!!

reply from: Witness

Bump for the children slaughtered this week.

reply from: yoda

Actually, the iggy button works pretty well.....

reply from: Rosalie

No, you didn't, and I have seen some sonograms myself. You constantly think you are showing me something I haven't seen/heard before but you aren't. I HAVE all the facts and I HAVE heard all the pro-life lies and agenda. You're wasting your time.
At 18 weeks, the baby is NOT complete. Its lungs, for example, are FAR from complete. If they are complete, why don't we give birth to them at 18 weeks?
And yes, a couple of babies survived at 22 weeks. That's why you read about them in the paper, because it was an unusual occurence.
Go and try your propaganda on someone else. Preferably on someone who has no education in this field. I will not fall for your lies.

reply from: Witness

No, you didn't, and I have seen some sonograms myself. You constantly think you are showing me something I haven't seen/heard before but you aren't. I HAVE all the facts and I HAVE heard all the pro-life lies and agenda. You're wasting your time.
At 18 weeks, the baby is NOT complete. Its lungs, for example, are FAR from complete. If they are complete, why don't we give birth to them at 18 weeks?
And yes, a couple of babies survived at 22 weeks. That's why you read about them in the paper, because it was an unusual occurence.
Go and try your propaganda on someone else. Preferably on someone who has no education in this field. I will not fall for your lies.
IF you are able to look at what the children do in the womb and keep your calloused opinion, then you are probably right. I should move on to someone with a compassionate heart and working conscience.
At 18 weeks the lungs need time to mature for sure, but they are there. A newborn can't walk, but would you argue it doesn't have legs?
Your desperate need to be heartless where the children are concerned is more than a little sad, Rosalie. Could it be a covering for guilt?
Edited for placement.

reply from: Rosalie

Why should what children are capable of doing in the womb have any bearing on women's right to decide how and by whom her body can be used?
They need A LOT of time to mature. Even a 28 week old fetuses have difficulty breathing.
And when did I say the lungs were not there?
Where did I say anything like that? Can you please stop making stuff up?
You don't know anything about me so again, stop lying. I have the greatest concern for children. So great that me and my fiancé are extremely active in many children-related charities and we are considering "adopting" a Third-world child - not in the traditional sense but in the "paying for their needs and education" sense.
So shut up about my concern for children. You know nothing about it.
No, but you sure are an A-list liar.

reply from: yoda

Fortuantely, we can respond to any real attempts at debate that a proabort tries, just for the benefit of others who may read the forum. So it really doesn't matter that some of them have hardened their hearts, we can still make a valid point for the babies. My problem with her is that she never seems to make any attempt to make a valid point.

reply from: Witness

Posted by Rosalie: Why should what children are capable of doing in the womb have any bearing on women's right to decide how and by whom her body can be used?
MY ANSWER: The point is that the children ARE children; that they are alive; and that they are being killed purely for convenience. Anytime we can kill ANYONE just for convenience sake it is an atrocity, because EVERYONE is an inconvenience to SOMEONE at some point in their lives. Meaning that once we say ANYONE can be killed for convenience EVERYONE is at risk.
Let's say you move in and take over my apartment. Well, you've just inconvenienced me. By your reasoning, I should be able to put you out of my misery. Obviously, that's an unacceptable conclusion, but it is every bit as valid as your argument EXCEPT that the CHILDREN DID NOT FORCE THEMSELVES ON THEIR MOTHERS. The mothers made that CHOICE themselves. So, your arguing that an innocent victim -- placed into the womb without their consent -- can be killed because they inconvenience the person who put them there is really more like -- I force you into my apartment and then annihilate you for being there.
You keep arguing your education like it's some kind of foundation for accepting your rediculous reasoning. Until you understand the basic flaws of your argument, your "education" is completely irrelevant.
Posted by Rosalie: You don't know anything about me so again, stop lying. I have the greatest concern for children. So great that me and my fiancé are extremely active in many children-related charities and we are considering "adopting" a Third-world child - not in the traditional sense but in the "paying for their needs and education" sense.
So shut up about my concern for children. You know nothing about it.
MY ANSWER: I will not "shut up". This forum is here so that we can post our opinions. You post yours. I'll continue to post mine. You don't like it, go somewhere else. I'm staying. Besides, your calloused disregard for the children is apparent by your posts. So, you care for a chosen few. You have absolutely no concern for the THOUSANDS that are dying. Until the day this slaughter is finished, people like me will be posting here and at other places, because we care all children not just the ones who are convenient.
Edited for clarity.

reply from: Witness

Posted by Witness: At 18 weeks the lungs need time to mature for sure, but they are there.
Posted by Rosalie: They need A LOT of time to mature. Even a 28 week old fetuses have difficulty breathing. And when did I say the lungs were not there?
Posted by Witness: A newborn can't walk, but would you argue it doesn't have legs?
Posted by Rosalie: Where did I say anything like that? Can you please stop making stuff up?
MY ANSWER: The point is that children in the womb need to mature, but so do all children. Arguing that they don't deserve to live based on lack of maturity is the same as arguing no child deserves to live.

reply from: Witness

Fortuantely, we can respond to any real attempts at debate that a proabort tries, just for the benefit of others who may read the forum. So it really doesn't matter that some of them have hardened their hearts, we can still make a valid point for the babies. My problem with her is that she never seems to make any attempt to make a valid point.
It is a little like trying to explain quantum physics to a newborn sometimes, isn't it?

reply from: faithman

No, you didn't, and I have seen some sonograms myself. You constantly think you are showing me something I haven't seen/heard before but you aren't. I HAVE all the facts and I HAVE heard all the pro-life lies and agenda. You're wasting your time.
At 18 weeks, the baby is NOT complete. Its lungs, for example, are FAR from complete. If they are complete, why don't we give birth to them at 18 weeks?
And yes, a couple of babies survived at 22 weeks. That's why you read about them in the paper, because it was an unusual occurence.
Go and try your propaganda on someone else. Preferably on someone who has no education in this field. I will not fall for your lies.
What you low life pro-death scancs fail to realize, is the complete, and equal valued life that resides in a developing womb child. You think because your arm is bigger and more developed than the pre-born, you have the "right" to use it to choke the life out of womb children. SSSSSOOOOOOO acording to your world view, if a stronger arm comes along, they have the "right" to choke your life away as well. Baby killing is the ultimate "might makes right". But when you buy into that lie, it makes you a prey to the evil aggression you embrase. When you build the scafold, and tie the noose, it is very often your own neck that gets stretched.

reply from: yoda

Worse, actually. At least a newborn isn't being DELIBERATELY ignorant.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The fact that the unborn is delicate and needs more time to develop isn't an excuse to kill it; rather, it is a huge reason to protect it!

reply from: nancyu

Here's another vote in favor. They are not people anyway.

reply from: nancyu

P.S. I love the poem, Witness.

reply from: faithman

Willful ignorance is the ugliest of all human conditions.
As a "pro-lifer", you would know all about that.
So, when the truth hits home try abuse as a defence?
...some use it as an offence....

reply from: Rosalie

Here's another vote in favor. They are not people anyway.
Nothing like a hypocrisy on this forum! Nothing at all!
If you cannot take other people challenging your opinion, then there's something wrong with it.

reply from: faithman

OOOOOOooooOOOO!!! Maybe that wisdom is starting to kick in!!!!! Very very very good post. One of the best of all time.

reply from: nancyu

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

OOOOOOooooOOOO!!! Maybe that wisdom is starting to kick in!!!!! Very very very good post. One of the best of all time.
I said that phrase the first time months ago.

reply from: lukesmom

You sound very desperate in your post here. I would also like to point out that this is a prolife forum...if you don't like what you hear here and it is all lies, why do you keep coming back?

reply from: lukesmom

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?
That was very uncalled for. I lost a child to mc and soon after became pg with my son Pete. I can't imagine life without him and I would never ever stand for anyone saying he was the "wrong one" to be living. Shame on you Nancy. You are better than that nastiness.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Nancy has almost never been nice to me on this forum.

reply from: Witness

Thank you. The pic to go with it is nearly done. So, it will be up on the website soon.

reply from: Witness

Worse, actually. At least a newborn isn't being DELIBERATELY ignorant.
You've got a point there.

reply from: nancyu

*Reports post*
*shakes in shoes*

reply from: Witness

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?
While I really don't condone killing any child, the point that we don't know how many have been killed that would have really contributed to society is valid. I mean how many genuses, scientists, leaders, authors, musicians, etc. never got to be born?
Abortion robs us of our full potential as human beings collectively and it degrades us to an animal-level -- actually, worse, because animals don't kill without a reason. We're killing our offspring purely for convenience. We're not evolving. We're devolving.

reply from: Rosalie

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?
While I really don't condone killing any child, the point that we don't know how many have been killed that would have really contributed to society is valid. I mean how many genuses, scientists, leaders, authors, musicians, etc. never got to be born?
Abortion robs us of our full potential as human beings collectively and it degrades us to an animal-level -- actually, worse, because animals don't kill without a reason. We're killing our offspring purely for convenience. We're not evolving. We're devolving.
I can't believe you people are still so stupid as in to use this argument.
I mean ... how many Hitlers, Stalins, Mussolinis, Mao Tse-Tungs never got to be born!
Please.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Exactly. If you want to wish I was dead then just wish for a car to hit me, people.

reply from: socratease

Most people don't fall into either category, but most are striving for and contributing to an overall good. So these deaths diminish all of us.

reply from: Rosalie

Most people don't fall into either category, but most are striving for and contributing to an overall good. So these deaths diminish all of us.
I don't think it's true at all. We're still in balance. Furthermore, this is not a reason enough for me to give up my rights.

reply from: socratease

With prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and some deep introspection, I think she could be a nice person some day. Until then....be prepared to duck.

reply from: Rosalie

It's disgusting that nothing has been done about that comment. It just proves what kind of a forum this really is.

reply from: nancyu

Here's another vote in favor. They are not people anyway.
Nothing like a hypocrisy on this forum! Nothing at all!
If you cannot take other people challenging your opinion, then there's something wrong with it.
It's not that we can't take it, it's just that it's so tiresome after a while.

reply from: BossMomma

I recall Nancy telling me to go kill my baby when I was pro-choice, she's a hateful biotch and not worth any decent person's time.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I recall Nancy telling me to go kill my baby when I was pro-choice, she's a hateful biotch and not worth any decent person's time.
She really does say some terrible things that I would not want any child to hear.

reply from: carolemarie

I am glad you are prolife now, but even if you were not that was an inexcusable remark.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I really find it offensive that Nancyu thinks it's okay to call pro-choicers "not people" because she's being sarcastic, but I just think it's detrimental to her whole stance. She's hating the sinners, not the sin.

reply from: yoda

Nah, she's just making a point about their constantly harping that it's okay to kill them because "they're not people".
I think it's an effective bit of sarcasm, myself.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Nah, she's just making a point about their constantly harping that it's okay to kill them because "they're not people".
I think it's an effective bit of sarcasm, myself.
To me it just seems like a person dressed in conservative clothes talking about how we should be more polite and kind, and saying "People who swear are fu*cking losers who don't deserve my fu*king kindness."

reply from: yoda

Well the thing that puzzles me is that I've seen many posters say that we must be kind, gentle, and loving to the proaborts so that we can change them over to prolifers, but these same people dig in with their spurs when they have a disagreement with a prolifer. Where's all the kindness, gentlenes, and love for the prolifer with whom you disagree? Did you use it all up on the proaborts?

reply from: faithman

Surgar syrup can only go so far. Then the fangs and claws come out. These phonies always expose themselves sooner or later. They never come up to the standard they hold up for others.

reply from: faithman

It's disgusting that nothing has been done about that comment. It just proves what kind of a forum this really is.
Yeah!!!! The best kick the crap out of the borthead forum on the net!!!! Many thanks to LDI for getting it. This is a bloody fight, not a high school debate class. I think it is marvilous that you death punks, and false pro-life fetii killers don't like it. I don't think there is any pretence at all to what kind of forum this is. Don't like it?!! Don't let the door hit your split on the way out!!! [and don't worry, I have already reported myself to the mod for ya!!]

reply from: Witness

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?
While I really don't condone killing any child, the point that we don't know how many have been killed that would have really contributed to society is valid. I mean how many genuses, scientists, leaders, authors, musicians, etc. never got to be born?
Abortion robs us of our full potential as human beings collectively and it degrades us to an animal-level -- actually, worse, because animals don't kill without a reason. We're killing our offspring purely for convenience. We're not evolving. We're devolving.
I can't believe you people are still so stupid as in to use this argument.
I mean ... how many Hitlers, Stalins, Mussolinis, Mao Tse-Tungs never got to be born!
Please.
Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Mao Tse-Tung were raised not born. I can't believe you don't understand that fact. Go look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone "stupid". Your ignorance is showing.

reply from: Witness

I've yet to meet anyone who thinks killing babies is all right that has a truly kind heart. Babies blood is like cancer to the soul.

reply from: Witness

Off topic: A mother took a blanket from us yesterday and did not go into the abortuary. We don't know that the atrocity was completely adverted, but she appreciated the counseling and the blanket; visiting amicably with the witnesses repeatedly. Thank you, NancyU. The blanket was one of yours.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Maybe. I don't know; I've really been trying hard this past week. I think it's the difference between always saying something in the most offensive way possible vs trying to say it in a more polite manner. Doesn't have to be "nice" persay, but polite.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's sad, Liberal, that last part, I mean. Happy Birthday, though, in advance.
Thank you. I feel said about it these days (my older sibling) but I can't feel too sad because I know that if they had been born, I would not have been.
Personally, I think she chose to let the wrong one live, but how on earth could she have known this ahead of time?
While I really don't condone killing any child, the point that we don't know how many have been killed that would have really contributed to society is valid. I mean how many genuses, scientists, leaders, authors, musicians, etc. never got to be born?
Abortion robs us of our full potential as human beings collectively and it degrades us to an animal-level -- actually, worse, because animals don't kill without a reason. We're killing our offspring purely for convenience. We're not evolving. We're devolving.
I can't believe you people are still so stupid as in to use this argument.
I mean ... how many Hitlers, Stalins, Mussolinis, Mao Tse-Tungs never got to be born!
Please.
Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and Mao Tse-Tung were raised not born. I can't believe you don't understand that fact. Go look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone "stupid". Your ignorance is showing.
Scientists, authors, musicians, and artists are also raised (and taught), not born.

reply from: yoda

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the disparity between how some prolifers treat proaborts and how they treat other prolifers. It seems they can be all nice and lovey dovey to the proaborts, but not to fellow prolifers. Very odd....

reply from: Rosalie

All these artists and scientists were also raised, educated and supported, not just BORN. You really ARE an idiot.
You still don't understand that all you say and all you do is only making you look like a bunch of insane, deranged individuals who are incapable to manage even their own rights, relationships and lives.
But keep going, keep proving what you really are.

reply from: Rosalie

I have yet to meet anyone who thinks that treating women as walking uteruses and controlling their lives is a good and right thing to do that actually has a heart.

reply from: Witness

All these artists and scientists were also raised, educated and supported, not just BORN. You really ARE an idiot.
For LCR and Rosalie:
Einstein, Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Carl Friedrich Gauss, da Vinci . . . the word is prodigy. Like I said, go look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone names.

reply from: Witness

I have yet to meet anyone who thinks that treating women as walking uteruses and controlling their lives is a good and right thing to do that actually has a heart.
Since killing little children is perfectly all right with you, I don't think I'll worry about how you rate the condition of anyone else's heart. Your's is as cold as a gravestone itself.

reply from: faithman

I have yet to meet anyone who thinks that treating women as walking uteruses and controlling their lives is a good and right thing to do that actually has a heart.
Since killing little children is perfectly all right with you, I don't think I'll worry about how you rate the condition of anyone else's heart. Your's is as cold as a gravestone itself.
The condition of grave stone heart tends to affect vision as well. You will not see the "heart" in others if you are minus one.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

All these artists and scientists were also raised, educated and supported, not just BORN. You really ARE an idiot.
For LCR and Rosalie:
Einstein, Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Carl Friedrich Gauss, da Vinci . . . the word is prodigy. Like I said, go look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone names.
I did not call anyone an idiot... And there are plenty of brilliant people who were NOT PRODIGIES. There were also many people BORN with mental instability that led to them becoming horrible murderers and the like. Those people turned out "bad" due to unlucky events in their lives, which cannot be controlled. Conversely, even a "prodigy" could become a criminal depending on their upbringing. I don't think there is a single difference between the mind of an artistic prodigy and a mass murderer: what is different is what happened in their lives.
Certain people are born with innate potential for wisdom and possible mental instability. How they turn out is due in part to how they are raised, and in part due to random events that happen in their lives.
Hell, if Hitler hadn't been rejected from Art School, he probably never would have become the leader of Germany and caused the Holocaust. Instead, we may have celebrated him in history as one of the famous great artists of the early 20th century.
The same qualities that allow someone to be a brilliant artist: charisma, innate creativity, intelligence, obsession: those same qualities are what made Hitler such a powerful leader. A major downside to having these qualities is often mental instability. It is something that has plagued many of the great dictators/leaders of the past, as well as most - if not all - of the artists. These are qualities people are born with that have the potential to be developed into something great - or something terrible.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to the disparity between how some prolifers treat proaborts and how they treat other prolifers. It seems they can be all nice and lovey dovey to the proaborts, but not to fellow prolifers. Very odd....
It might be true... sometimes people don't see a need to be nice to people "on their side" because... they're already on their side. Maybe?

reply from: carolemarie

You know LRC, perhaps Yoda should look at how he treats other prolifers and then he might see why they quit being pleasant to him!
Or look at Fboy's post and figure out that maybe the constant hate and spite turns people off.
I think we should be civil, but like any other person, constant personal attacks aimed at you for events in the past get under your skin.

reply from: Witness

All these artists and scientists were also raised, educated and supported, not just BORN. You really ARE an idiot.
For LCR and Rosalie:
Einstein, Mozart, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Carl Friedrich Gauss, da Vinci . . . the word is prodigy. Like I said, go look in the mirror the next time you want to call someone names.
I did not call anyone an idiot... And there are plenty of brilliant people who were NOT PRODIGIES. There were also many people BORN with mental instability that led to them becoming horrible murderers and the like. Those people turned out "bad" due to unlucky events in their lives, which cannot be controlled. Conversely, even a "prodigy" could become a criminal depending on their upbringing. I don't think there is a single difference between the mind of an artistic prodigy and a mass murderer: what is different is what happened in their lives.
Certain people are born with innate potential for wisdom and possible mental instability. How they turn out is due in part to how they are raised, and in part due to random events that happen in their lives.
Hell, if Hitler hadn't been rejected from Art School, he probably never would have become the leader of Germany and caused the Holocaust. Instead, we may have celebrated him in history as one of the famous great artists of the early 20th century.
The same qualities that allow someone to be a brilliant artist: charisma, innate creativity, intelligence, obsession: those same qualities are what made Hitler such a powerful leader. A major downside to having these qualities is often mental instability. It is something that has plagued many of the great dictators/leaders of the past, as well as most - if not all - of the artists. These are qualities people are born with that have the potential to be developed into something great - or something terrible.
First, the list was for you not the slur. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Second, prodigies were what I was talking about; many of whose gifts are still important years after they died. Third if you're arguing that helpless little children can be killed because they might have a bad childhood . . . surely you realize that by your reasoning no one should be allowed to live? Because everyone's at risk of allowing something to turn them the wrong way in their lifetime. Or are you not aware that many suffer serious abuse, but go right on to be exceptionally productive, kind adults?

reply from: faithman

HHHHMMMMM under skin? Kinda like abortionist instruments slither under the skin of a womb child huh? You want to talk about hate and spite. SSSSOOOOO you just "loved" your children to death? Or did you hate the inconveniance of them, and spitfully snuffed them out? Seems to be a little conflict of interest here. You place your hateful spiteful self above the right of others to live. I guess that would make you the expert on the subject?


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