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Is the killing of a born child the same thing as abortion?

What do you say?

by: carolemarie

There is always the tendency of prolifers to compare abortion to everything, the holocaust, slavery and the murder of a child. While there may be some similarities, I believe the differences make the analogy breakdown.
First, I am prolife. I believe abortion kills a human being and should be outlawed. However, I don't think the women who get them are the same as child murderers or slave traders or Nazis.
How do you see it as similar and different. (List both things) And try to be honest not caught all up in your rhetoric.
IMHO, I see abortion first of all as legal, which makes people view it differently than they would if it was illegal.
Second, I see it as passive on the part of the woman. She doesn't actively do anything.
Third there is no relationship between the the woman and the fetus.
Fourth, some woman don't think the fetus is a child, which changes the way they view what they are doing.
Fifth: the act of abortion isn't directed out of malice towards the fetus.

reply from: carolemarie

Care to be more specific? What part to you call a lie? Based on what?

reply from: faithman

Liar.
Well, I guess I don't have to post. Thanks nancyu.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion is murder. Abortion is like the holocaust. Abortion in it's various rationalizations is very much like slavery. A woman, however uninformed does consciously and willfully cause the death of another human being. Those that come to understand this usually do feel like they have commited murder. They have unjustly caused the death of another. That a woman paid someone else to physically perform the actual death causing action does not diminish her guilt. She is willfully choosing the death of a human person and is present and gives her full consent to what is being done. There are no good excuses for abortion. There can be no evasion of actual guilt.

reply from: carolemarie

Thank you Augustine for a well thought out post. However, does that make it the SAME thing as killing a born child or a different yet equally horrible thing.

reply from: BossMomma

How people view a thing and acknowledging the basic truth of the thing are very different. Abortion kills a child as infanticide kills a child as child murder kills a child. The location or gestational stage of the child is irrelevent. We are not butterflies, we do not metamorph into something completely different, we remain the same human being throughout the whole of our lives. To say killing a child at 2 years is worse than killing that same child at 12 weeks gestation is a moral and scientific fallacy. The two are one and the same.

reply from: Banned Member

I don't think that you will find many pro-lifers who will distinguish between the two things; killing an unborn child and killing an born child.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't doubt that a child dies. What I am questioning is the veracity of the statement that they are the same thing.
Abortion is legal, murder isn't.

reply from: BossMomma

No one is denying that abortion is legal, the argument is whether or not it should be.

reply from: carolemarie

Agreed. I think all of us agree abortion should be illegal.
I think where we disagree is how to do that.
But back to the original question.
If someone has an abortion, is it the ame thing as murdering a 2 year old and burying the body.
I say no, the similarities break down because while they are both horrible acts, the murder of the toddler is not acceptable by any standard. It is obviously evil.

reply from: Banned Member

You are asking if people think that abortion is the same thing as murder. Yes, people believe that it is. Is abortion the same thing as murder? Yes. Does the law recognize that abortion is murder? Obviously not. However, and paradoxically the law is not consistant since if a woman chooses to end the life of her unborn child than it is not murder whereas if a third party causes the death of her unborn child, that person can be tried with murder. That is the irony the princple axis of the entire abortion discussion. Can and should the legal personhood of an unborn child be a subjective value? Obviously not. If a person justly defends their own life and kills another person, it is not tried as murder. That does not mean that the individual was not a person, only that the death was legally justified. What is the legal justification for killing an unborn child if that unborn child is a person? There can be none. And that is the paradox and flaw in the law as it exists. Until the law makes a clear statement and precedent quantifying the exact status of the unborn person and thus defines them as a person protected under the law, than abortion will continue to be viewed as an untried case of murder. Abortion is the loophole of all loopholes in the law, allowing murder to take place. Partial birth abortion is the best example of this contradiction where the unborn is only unborn because the child is improperly delivered so that the child can be killed while the head still remains in the mothers body, literally inches from being a legally protected human person.

reply from: carolemarie

You are arguing the legal situtation. I am asking you if the woman who aborts is the same as the one who kills a 2 year old and buries it in the woods.
Both have taken the life of a child. But is it the same thing? I say no. It is different because we have made it okay to do this. Morality is enforced by laws.

reply from: nancyu

No problem. I'll edit the post and highlight the lies for you.

reply from: nancyu

Liar.
Well, I guess I don't have to post. Thanks nancyu.
You're welcome. Isn't that what clones are for?

reply from: Banned Member

Is the nature of the two "crimes" the same? the circumstances? Right now, they can't be viewed the same. All people can do is stand by and watch as a woman chooses to kill her own unborn child. It's legally protected. She doesn't commit the crime in secret and hide the body because she obviously doesn't have to. A woman who kills her own born child, does have to hide the body, because she can be prosecuted by the law. Are the two types of murder the same? Yes in my view.
The question is, if the law changed would you view them differently?
What if the specific type of abortion were banned and performed without regard to the law, would you still view them as being different? Or would you still differentiate between a "type" of abortion and the killing of a born child?

reply from: BossMomma

Is murdering a 1 week old the same as murdering a 2 year old and burying the body? When does a child gain it's worth in your opinion? Murder is wrong no matter the age of the child be it 12 years out of utero or 12 weeks gestation.

reply from: faithman

Liar.
Well, I guess I don't have to post. Thanks nancyu.
You're welcome. Isn't that what clones are for?
Clone or sock puppet makes no difference. Did you catch the cloning news on the forum? very important news!!!!! snicker....

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Both are murder, but to look a born child in the eye, kill him or her and (even worse) place that child's body somewhere, or attempt to destroy it, is so cold-blooded that, as a mother, it is unimaginable to me.
That child is the flesh of your flesh. S/he began life inside your body, lived there until birth, you went through pain to give birth, you held that child in your arms, fed it and clothed it, changed it's diapers and bathed it, gave it warmth and shelter and care and love.
How can any mother kill their child like that? I do not understand.

reply from: Banned Member

And to kill a person you have never even met? never even seen? That is not just as cold an act of killing?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Of course it is. It's horrible and completely beyond my understanding - but there is something about killing your own child (or mother, or father or other relative) that is (if possible) even worse.
You know nothing about a stranger. Not a thing. They do not share your blood. your name, your life. You never met them, talked to them, touched them in any way. There is no INTIMACY there.
Both are hideous crimes, so awful as to be beyond comprehension to a simple person like me. Sorry, Augustine, I cannot put it into words.

reply from: Banned Member

I was referring to an unborn child. An unborn child is your same blood, they have heard your voice, you have touched them and are intimate with them in a very unique and different way. And then the aborting mother kills them.

reply from: nancyu

Liar.
Well, I guess I don't have to post. Thanks nancyu.
You're welcome. Isn't that what clones are for?
Clone or sock puppet makes no difference. Did you catch the cloning news on the forum? very important news!!!!! snicker....
I read the news, you're on a comical roll faithman. RLMOFAL (hey did I spell that right?)

reply from: Nulono

The Holocaust was legal.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Please stop trying to make the argument that killing a much younger person is different than killing an older person.
A person has lost their life in either case. The tragedy is equally great.
Let's forget about the state of mind the killer was in or whether he or she felt that particular type of killing was more socially acceptable. The results are the same: a dead person.

reply from: speck

To the posters in this thread (who really seem to not be getting CM's point)
Do you believe that a woman/mothers mind frame/evil/malice/heart is coming from the same place from a woman who aborts vs a woman who kills their born child?
Do you believe that the majority of women who abort would kill their born children?

reply from: CharlesD

There's nothing I can add to that.

reply from: faithman

Who the heck cares what a murderers motives are? We just need to stop them.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yes it comes from the same place. Selfishness, a warped self centered ego. Abortion is acceptable not because it comes from a different type or level of evil but because it is currently lawful. Mob mentality allows it to appear harmless.
Why did it become legal and born baby murdering hasn't yet? The ones that have no way to communicate are always the first to go (Nobody will hear you scream), then the ones we perceived as stupid or infantile and who are less physically capable (chloroform). Worship strength and power, remove emotion for anything else.
Ask jrh. He's got this brain wave scanner that measures thought complexity. You've got to maintain at least a 12 to qualify as self aware.
The standards just keep going up. I don't think I'm going to pass. I'm always looking for ways to lose self awareness
If there are only two pins holding the thing together and you've already removed one --

reply from: yoda

It should never matter, morally, whether something is legal or not. Slavery was legal at one time, right? Do you consider that it was "moral" when it was legal?
Who hires the abortionist? Who signs the medical consent form? HOW IN HADES can that be considered "passive"? If YOU hire a HIT MAN to kill someone, is that "passive"?
Other than "mother and child", you mean? Other than "flesh and blood", you mean? Oh wait, maybe those mean nothing to you?
Show me the woman who is stupid enough to actually believe that. I don't believe there is a woman on the face of the earth that is that stupid.
That's the silliest, stupidest one of all. Hiring a contract killer to kill your baby is not an "act of malice"???????
And I note with some sadness your tendency to use the proabort favorite term "fetus" instead of "baby". What's up with that, carole? Are you having trouble keeping up the facade of being prolife now?

reply from: yoda

But, what if you paid a hired killer to kill your born child, so you never had to look it in the eye, and paid the killer to get rid of the body? Is that also "unimaginable" to you?

reply from: faithman

The vale is rent, and the pro-death she wolf exposed!!!

reply from: yoda

Yes, it was. It seems to me that to magnify the irrelevant differences between such examples as the Holocaust, slavery, and other forms of genocide in an effort to blot out the similarities is dishonest and hypocritical.
When two things are both legal, and one of them is universally viewed as horrible, it is dishonest to keep using legality as an excuse for the other.

reply from: yoda

First, we cannot know where someone's heart is "coming from". Second, when one makes a cold, calm decision to electively kill another human being for basically selfish reasons, there is no reason to distinguish between that and any other killing of an innocent.
And third, it's interesting that only a proabort would take carole's side in this.

reply from: yoda

You know, sometimes I wonder. I can't put myself in the place of someone has had multiple abortions, but I suppose it would be a temptation to try to find some way to excuse, or lessen the severity of what I had done.

reply from: faithman

You know, sometimes I wonder. I can't put myself in the place of someone has had multiple abortions, but I suppose it would be a temptation to try to find some way to excuse, or lessen the severity of what I had done.
If it were not an act of betrail to my womb child friends, I would pitty them. But that is a luxury at to high a price while the young ones die by the thousands everyday. We should be working to take away the excuses, not making them up at every turn. Excuses are the mark and trade of unrepentant killers.

reply from: lukesmom

I would really hate to see what these women would do that you would actually consider to be malicious if the violence of abortion isn't.

reply from: lukesmom

Actually I see an abortive woman who doesn't care or acknowledge what she has done to be the most chilling.
This is an interesting question: My question, why the "lighter" sentences for killing one's own kids vs. killing another woman's? Is it because children are seen as women's property so it is "okay" to kill one's own but not another woman's? If so, isn't this a little sick?
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/05/women-innocent-if-they-kill-their-own.html

reply from: ChristianLott2

I view the government as being most at fault, the political leaders who've perpetuated this mess. Legality = enticement. Laws are to control people's conduct. If the state does not necessarily own your body, it's still responsible for it, good or bad
At the end of a war we don't imprison every enemy soldier after they've given up but we do restructure their government (business) so it no longer represents a threat.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It's not that abortive women don't acknowledge what they're doing, it's that they have completely different view of it than you do.
Cannibalistic tribes don't see anything wrong with cannibalism, despite the fact that I find it horrific.
This is why my quest as a pro-lifer is to change hearts and minds of women. I too had a completely different view of abortion than I do now. You cannot punish someone for that, it's not fair. Maybe a long time from now after abortion has been illegal for a long time the laws and punishments can become more severe, but that will be due to society changing its viewpoint.

reply from: lukesmom

There are a lot of things in this life that aren't fair. Wanna tell the aborted unborn about "fairness"?

reply from: carolemarie

HMMM
so you all think what Casey did to Caliee was no different than any of the 1.5 million abortions every year? It was the exact same thing to you.
Is that what each of you believe?

reply from: faithman

Musta plugged up all those holes in your head to let a rational thought stick for a change. That is exactly what real pro-lifers believe. Only pretenders would try to say different.

reply from: carolemarie

I am a real prolifer. And I don't agree with that statement.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I certainly don't. But you already know that

reply from: carolemarie

What amazes me is former prochoicers who now claim there is no difference. Not so suprised at prolifers,since all the speeches and speakers go on and on about abortion being equal to slavery and the holocaust, and they have good speakers, like Allen Keys who can blister the paint of the walls. But rhetoric is still rhetoric.
I expect the haters to believe that, because they don't care a bit about the women and attribute evil to every person who aborts, they can fathom someone actually believing something else.
I am suprised by the prolifers I thought cared about women and the baby, the reasonable ones who actually try to help women.....

reply from: faithman

No you are not. You are a half bake baby killing dunder headed baby killer, who makes excuses for her fellow killers. Your problem here is that those with real pro-life views are beginning to see right thru you. You are one of the most deadly enemies to the womb child I have ever seen. Vexing was more pro-life than you.

reply from: carolemarie

No you are not. You are a half bake baby killing dunder headed baby killer, who makes excuses for her fellow killers. Your problem here is that those with real pro-life views are beginning to see right thru you. You are one of the most deadly enemies to the womb child I have ever seen. Vexing was more pro-life than you.
Sure I am. I believe abortion is wrong. I work to stop it. That is prolife. What would you call it?

reply from: carolemarie

You didn't believe it when you were prochoice. So if it wasn't true then, why is it now true?

reply from: BossMomma

Could have fooled me, a real pro-lifer wouldn't differentiate an unborn child from a born child. You spend so much time dehumanizing the unborn child and kissing the abortion provider's butt I really must wonder if you see anything wrong with it at all. Did you think the doctor (I use the term loosely) who provided your abortions helped you? Obviously not from your previous posts.

reply from: BossMomma

It amazes you that a former pro-choicer could so clearly see the error of her ways? It amazes me that a woman would abort three children, defend her abortion provider by calling him/her a caring helpful individual right after going on about how much she regrets her choice then continue to dehumanize the unborn child. Hate speach is no way to put out an important message but neither is backsliding fallacy.

reply from: BossMomma

No you are not. You are a half bake baby killing dunder headed baby killer, who makes excuses for her fellow killers. Your problem here is that those with real pro-life views are beginning to see right thru you. You are one of the most deadly enemies to the womb child I have ever seen. Vexing was more pro-life than you.
Sure I am. I believe abortion is wrong. I work to stop it. That is prolife. What would you call it?
Why do you see it as wrong?

reply from: speck

First, we cannot know where someone's heart is "coming from". Second, when one makes a cold, calm decision to electively kill another human being for basically selfish reasons, there is no reason to distinguish between that and any other killing of an innocent.
And third, it's interesting that only a proabort would take carole's side in this.
Proabort or not, I see exactly where CM is coming from, as I have saved babies myself, by going through the mother, and helping her with compassion, understanding and kindness, as opposed to controlling and being demeaning making this be the cause for some woman to abort. Can you say the same?(say whatever lies you need to say to help you sleep at night, but I know the truth to that question)

reply from: BossMomma

An opinion does not change a fact, I simply saw the fact through the opinion and reached a better understanding.

reply from: faithman

An opinion does not change a fact, I simply saw the fact through the opinion and reached a better understanding.
It's called being a reasonable PERSON. And any reasonable PERSON Can see that the womb child is a PERSON, and as fellow PERSONS, I should defend our common PERSONHOOD. IUf we are to remain free PERSONS, we must protect the least PERSON, or all PERSONHOOD is in jeapardy.

reply from: yoda

The pertinent question is not "is it the same thing", but rather "Is it as bad?"
And my answer to that is a resounding YES!!

reply from: yoda

That's what I thought too......

reply from: yoda

Why would a proabort do that?
You know nothing, but you say a lot. The kind thing would be to say that you are speaking out of ignorance. I'll try to be kind today and say that you are simply ignorant, and speaking out of your butt.

reply from: faithman

Why would a proabort do that?
You know nothing, but you say a lot. The kind thing would be to say that you are speaking out of ignorance. I'll try to be kind today and say that you are simply ignorant, and speaking out of your butt.
Thats what I smelled!!!! Pro-abort bean wind....

reply from: lukesmom

Now I am confused. So terminating my children before they were born would have been more acceptable than terminating them after they were born? In your view that is, not as in a legal view. Somehow terminating my Luke at 16 weeks gestation would have been less "evil" than after he was born at 36 weeks? Carole, a human life is a human life no matter what age you are talking about. Are you saying that killing my 10 yr old would be more acceptable than killing my 16 yr old because he is more developed than his younger brother? I don't understand your post and am disturbed by it. I don't know many here that AREN'T concerned about women and don't care about them and the situations they find themselves in. Heck most of us ARE women who HAVE been in horrilbly difficult situations. I am shocked to have YOU question our integrety.

reply from: carolemarie

I am saying abortion isn't the same thing as murdering your two year old.
That is what the question was. I think it is different for a lot of reasons and I think it is anti woman to insist it is the same thing.
And I don't put you in the hater category.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

How could we persecute the cannibal under our laws for something they felt was completely acceptable?

reply from: ProInformed

The pro-aborts who opposed the Born Alive Infant Protection Act reveal that they want to ensure the baby dies, even if the baby no longer is inside the mother.
So no matter what they claim, they are pro-abortion plus pro-infanticide
(AND their pretense that they are defending 'abortion rights' because of any excuses related to the baby being inside the mother's body are just a lie).

reply from: BossMomma

Because killing a human being for food kinda falls into that whole killing people is wrong thing.

reply from: speck

Why would a proabort do that?
You know nothing, but you say a lot. The kind thing would be to say that you are speaking out of ignorance. I'll try to be kind today and say that you are simply ignorant, and speaking out of your butt.
To save
I would think it pretty self explanatory to pro-lifers why I do not wish to see babies being killed.

reply from: CharlesD

The only difference is age and location.
Intrinsically, the two are the same; in both cases a human being ends up dead.
There might be differences in the attitude of the killer, but those are superficial differences.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Because killing a human being for food kinda falls into that whole killing people is wrong thing.
Pretend a nation of peoples much more "advanced" than us suddenly appears, and they find it as abhorrent as murder to eat meat. You are not vegetarian in this example. They imprison you, send you through court, and sentence you to death for being a mass-murderer.
Fair, or not fair? It's NOT. But according to you, your beliefs are "irrelevant".

reply from: sheri

Cheerio has a point here, many women who abort are of the mindset that what they are doing is not in the least immoral. Another big difference is the need for a second party to the crime, that and the legality of the situation tend to lead people to believe there is a grey area where prolifers only see black and white or dead and alive.
A lot of you will defend (or even took at one time ) the birth control pill, we know now that it causes early abortions, certainly you do not equate killing a two year old and popping a pill as one in the same? Yet they are, the same person, same soul, etc. Think about it.

reply from: carolemarie

Thanks Sheri--that was a good point.
While I had abortions, I would have never in a million years hurt a child. Never! Part of the reason I had the abortions was because I thought I would be a terrible mother and might hurt that child.

reply from: ChristianLott2

The fact is that IN HER MIND there was obviously NO DIFFERENCE. Caylee's mom was just taking care of a nusiance, just like the 5,500 other pregnant women in the US every day.
After reading all those posts from you admonishing me to forgive the ex, why am I not surprised you'd accuse us of being anti woman.
You need to stop faking. No one on this forum is anti woman, you just put up that smoke screen to hide the fact that you would do anything to convince us a woman who obtains an elective abortion has done absolutely positively NO WRONG, that they're all victims of circumstance.
That it's socially acceptable is beside the point.

reply from: sheri

Lotty, what is your view on pill use?

reply from: carolemarie

Don't forget legal. That has a lot to do with it. Plus I never said that abortion was okay or a good thing. It simplly isn't the same thing as killing a born child.
And duh! You have to forgive her because hating someone will destroy you. Doesn't hurt her at all, doesn't bring back your child either. It is a pointless waste of your time.

reply from: faithman

But you did hurt children. 3 of them.

reply from: lukesmom

I'm glad I'm not in the hater category but, with each child, as soon as I knew I was pregnant, I loved that child. I grieved the loss of one at 12 weeks gestation and began grieving the loss of another when told he would die. If I would lose one more child, born or unborn, I think it would kill me literally. The only distinction I see in my miscarraige and Luke's death was the fact that I knew of Luke's impending death and I got to have him longer and hold him and bury him in a place I can visit. I didn't get any of that with the child I miscarried. I grieved both losses.
In answer to your question again, aborting my child would have been the same as intentionally killing one of my born children. I could never do either because BOTH are my children equally.

reply from: carolemarie

Because you loved them when you were pregnant! Most women don't even consider them more than cells or tissue, so there is not a love relationship! Which again was the point of the post. You were prolife, so you saw them as the same. Obviously from a prolife point of view it is the same.
Not so from a prochoice view.

reply from: lukesmom

I thought of them as the same but I can't say I initially loved them the same. I HATE being pregnant and didn't want to be pregnant. I took a little time before I loved them the same. If women gave themselves the time, they too, may change how they feel.
Because I am prolife doesn't make my unborn children any different than another's unborn child. They are still developementally the same. It is the MOTHERS who are different. There are convicted murderers who feel killing another human being is acceptable and there is often no "love relationship" between them and their victim but does that make the murdered person less a person?
Is it ok to kill another because you don't love them? Why is that different with the unborn human children? I can tell you. It is because according to the proabort industry, no unborn life is worthy of living if that life is not wanted by it's mother. The proabortion industry has made the mother into God.

reply from: faithman

The stupedest thing about the killers post, is that it keeps on repeating excusses to kill. That futher instills that the escusses are legitimate. Only a killer would continue to make excusses and justifications for baby killing. The whole focus of a true pro-life stance is to take those excusses away, not foster and try to legitimize them. Over and over again CM has posted pro-death rhetoric, includding the dehumanizing pro death nick name [fetus] insted of womb child, pre born, unborn. Over and over again this killer of 3 proves it is not prolife.

reply from: carolemarie

Then Sue, you all should lobby to take away the children of any women who had an abortion. obviously, they may decide to kill another child on a whim....
Yet, I see no such outcry or proposals.....
because we all know it isn't the same thing.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You only say you hate faithman and yodavater because you believe they are Army of God guys.
You sure you are ignoring them? I doubt Homeland Security is ignoring them. I bet their communications are being monitored under the Patriot Act because they are probably associated with the Army of God, a terrorist group.

reply from: lukesmom

No, we need to reteach women what has been brainwashed out of them by the proabort industry. Since Roe vs Wade we see increased brainwashing of children that abortion is acceptable and children being taught the lies their mother's were told. Every single woman knows exactly what the end result of her pregnancy is but these women have also been taught that abortion is not the killing of a child. the abortion industry dehumanizing the unborn has created a society that condones killing unborn children. Society is wrong and women who have abortions for whatever reason are wrong. Abortion is the killing of your unborn child, no different than killing your born child.

reply from: lukesmom

By reading the posts here, we all don't agree it's not the same thing. In fact, I believe, again from the posts here, the concensous (sp?) is it IS the same thing.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Well let me be the first - pro aborts should not be allowed to take care of children. Done.

reply from: ChristianLott2

No, not legally, not in their own mind, but certainly in fact. Do you deny this woman placed very little value on her child's life?
There's no sharp line to be drawn here because it's a steady drop in morality and principals.
I don't hate her, I hate what she did and what she continues to believe. Somewhere inside her is a good person, everyone has that potential.

reply from: ChristianLott2

That's true. A dead person either way.
Similarity: a person, either way
Difference: age
It was (purposely) misnamed contraception.
Yet frustrating procreation in any way was always a sin, including true contraceptives and masturbation. The further you remove yourself from generative principals, the further you stray from the truth. Contraception, abortifacient, abortion, infanticide, ...

reply from: BossMomma

That's true. A dead person either way.
Similarity: a person, either way
Difference: age
It was (purposely) misnamed contraception.
Yet frustrating procreation in any way was always a sin, including true contraceptives and masturbation. The further you remove yourself from generative principals, the further you stray from the truth. Contraception, abortifacient, abortion, infanticide, ...
How is contraceptives and masturbation anything like abortion? Some people really don't want children and child free couples should not have to abstain from physical intimacy hence why we have birth control. I'd rather they take steps not to create a life than to create one and destroy it.
Masturbation doesn't hurt a thing, I know there isn't one guy here who hasn't beat his meat at least once or twice in his life and we women don't even waste seed, it's just a harmless orgasm.

reply from: Rosalie

I'm glad I'm not in the hater category but, with each child, as soon as I knew I was pregnant, I loved that child. I grieved the loss of one at 12 weeks gestation and began grieving the loss of another when told he would die. If I would lose one more child, born or unborn, I think it would kill me literally. The only distinction I see in my miscarraige and Luke's death was the fact that I knew of Luke's impending death and I got to have him longer and hold him and bury him in a place I can visit. I didn't get any of that with the child I miscarried. I grieved both losses.
In answer to your question again, aborting my child would have been the same as intentionally killing one of my born children. I could never do either because BOTH are my children equally.
I do not want to drag YOUR personal situation into anything, I don't think that's right, so I will only say this: I know a woman who has three children, had one miscarriage and she also lived through the death of her born child. She said that losing her BORN child and having a miscarriage is incomparable. Absolutely incomparable. She was upset about her miscarriage but it was NOTHING compared to how utterly destroyed she was after her born child died. The bond was stronger, different. That's how she sees it - and that's how I happen to see it though I had not lived through anything like that and I hope I'll never have to.
Neither she nor me love our children any less than you do. It's just that people are not the same, people do not have the same beliefs, feelings or opinions. HER experience does not render YOUR experience invalid and vice versa.
It is not US who had been brainwashed.
This ENTIRE post clearly shows how full of the "pro-life" propaganda you are.

reply from: Rosalie

You know, sometimes I wonder. I can't put myself in the place of someone has had multiple abortions, but I suppose it would be a temptation to try to find some way to excuse, or lessen the severity of what I had done.
You do NOT have the right to judge others. Especially not those who have come to regret the actions they now consider wrong and asked for forgiveness. You are nothing, no one. You and a few others here may think you have the right to judge and condemn but all you have is your online bull*****.
What a horrible excuse for a man you are.

reply from: yoda

What do that mean "the same thing"?
No two actions are even exactly the same, so what does that actually mean?

reply from: yoda

Just tell them that their opinions do not over rule the law, perhaps?

reply from: yoda

Just as child molesters tend to believe that there is nothing immoral about molesting a child. So what?
Say what? What on earth are you talking about?

reply from: yoda

And they didn't have adoption back then, right?

reply from: yoda

That's what slave owners use to say. And Nazis, too.
You've put yourself in good company.

reply from: yoda

Wait, are you now saying that you still see abortion from a proabortion point of view? Is that what you are saying, because you are saying exactly what you say is a "prochoice view"?

reply from: yoda

Not at all, it's because they know they will go to prison for that.....

reply from: yoda

Are you delirious? Doesn't the name give you a clue? Does their name look like an organization that would have agnostics as members?
Really, think before you say stuff like that.....

reply from: yoda

By reading the posts here, we all don't agree it's not the same thing. In fact, I believe, again from the posts here, the concensous (sp?) is it IS the same thing.
Yep, no doubt about it.......

reply from: sheri

Lotty, if you avoid procreation by abstaining, then there is no sin in that. my whole point in making the equation between the pill and abortion was to show case the fact that many prolifers will not give up the pill and explain away its abortive potential to have the benefit of care free sex, and yet not see how it is possible for a woman to do the same in an abortion situation.
i even give the woman facing an abortion situation a little more moral wiggle room, she is facing a much more crucial situation then the pill user at the time of the pill use, she has not the gift of time to mull over moral platitudes. She has more direct pressure to abort and less support to do the right thing.
If you think i am going out on a limb to defend the aborted woman then i think you need to speak with more of them and get a better feel for their mindset at the time of the abortion. You will certainly meet the Casey Anthony and marvel at the lack of compassion a person can have toward their own child, but i assure you most will be Rachel weeping.

reply from: faithman

By reading the posts here, we all don't agree it's not the same thing. In fact, I believe, again from the posts here, the concensous (sp?) is it IS the same thing.
Yep, no doubt about it.......
Would make a nice little pole, don't you think? Does anyone have any doubt what my vote would be? What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it posible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compuction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privalege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any securaty from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeapardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destuctive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: sheri

container? I always thought you must be a crack-pot. I

reply from: faithman

HEY!!!! I resemble that remark!!!!!

reply from: yoda

No time is required to "mull over moral platitudes". Either you follow your conscience, or you do not. Either you engage in moral denial, or you do not. Either you are horrified at the thought of killing your own unborn child, or you are not.

reply from: yoda

That's the priority for me: First, stop them. Second, try to show them the error of their ways. But stopping them is always first, because the babies lives are "at least" as important as convincing a killer not to kill.

reply from: faithman

[for the spelling nazis, a spell checked version]What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.
Servant of the CHILD [Acts4:23-31] Faithman

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Speck,
To women who are newly pregnant, their unborn babies are not quite "real" - therefore, if they abort, it is not NEARLY the same to them at the time as killing a born child.
It doesn't change the fact that both are murder, but it is, IMHO, far more heinous to kill a child after birth than early in the pregnancy. As I told Augustine, it is beyond my comprehension how a woman can plan and commit the murder of a young child.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I was referring to an unborn child. An unborn child is your same blood, they have heard your voice, you have touched them and are intimate with them in a very unique and different way. And then the aborting mother kills them.
OK, now I understand. I suppose that the difference is, before birth, the mother has not gone through the pain and joy of birth, has never held her child, has never cared for it, rocked it, fed it, laid it down to sleep or all the other things you do with a baby. And to have that child be a few years old, as in the case of Caylee Anthony, that child has walked, talked and grown so much and has been able to show the mother in return.
I believe that the "safe haven" laws should be extended to include children long past the time when they are newborns, so that mothers who hit the wall when their children are in the "terrible twos", or if their situation changes so that they are no longer able to care for the child effectively, should be able to leave them in a safe place where they will receive immediate help and a new home.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You only say you hate faithman and yodavater because you believe they are Army of God guys.
What? Absolutely NOT. I have no proof of that, never suspected it, and don't even really know who/what Army of God is. I think it's a militant pro-life group, but I'm really not sure.
No, those two are on ignore due to hateful comments directed towards myself and others on this forum.
*looks at ignore list* Yep!
I have no idea, and that's really their own business. If they are assosciating themselves with people who murder born humans, then that's their own business and it will be their downfall.

reply from: sheri

Yoda, That is the problem, the people in question do not have a well formed concience. You rarely see a truely realigious woman going into have an abortion, who you see are either kids who never gave it a thought untill it was a personal issue and people who were trained from youth to view children as the worst thing that could come from free sex.
That is who we are up against not so much the rabidly feminazi type who kill babies as a sacrement in their religian, though i do not deny that that type does exist.

reply from: yoda

And it's probably not NEARLY the same for a sniper to kill someone half a mile away, who looks like a small dot, than for a gunman to get in the face of the victim, put a handgun in their gut and blast them, right?
So, should we use this as an excuse to give snipers a lighter sentence? Or excuse their crimes? After all, to the sniper, a tiny little target in their telescopic sight are probably not quite "real", are they?

reply from: yoda

I don't think that's a valid argument to use to evaluate the severity of a crime.
While some people may suppress their conscience, or go into denial, those acts alone are a basis for making their crimes more serious, IMO.
The lack of a conscience is a valid reason to make the punishment even more severe, IMO, because that condition makes it more likely that they will repeat their crime.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Firstly, thank you for helping to clarify my point. You make some good additional points, but the only thing I'm going to have to argue with is your comment about birth control.
It has not, in any widely accepted, well-done study, been proven to cause a failure to implant. The human body does that on its own much more often than it could even possibly be caused by birth control. It is only theorized to prevent implantation, but this is neither its main function nor an intended effect. Birth control was designed to either completely prevent fertilization, OR, if it does happen, to do no harm to the unborn. That's why women get pregnant on birth control - it doesn't prevent ovulation for whatever reason, the uterine lining thickens, the egg is fertilized, and implants.
The reason the lining of the uterus is thin is directly because the woman did not ovulate. So you cannot have an egg trying to implant in a thin uterine lining; IF the woman does ovulate that month, it triggers her uterus to build up the extra thickness needed to support a fertilized egg. It's not that birth control "thins" the lining, it's actually that it prevents it from thickening by preventing ovulation.
That's why I know that birth control does not prevent implantation. IF the woman ovulates, her lining fineshes thickening up. If she doesn't ovulate, it stays thin. I did a lot of research on this subject.

reply from: faithman

I don't think that's a valid argument to use to evaluate the severity of a crime.
While some people may suppress their conscience, or go into denial, those acts alone are a basis for making their crimes more serious, IMO.
The lack of a conscience is a valid reason to make the punishment even more severe, IMO, because that condition makes it more likely that they will repeat their crime.
I guess the first one is the tuffest. After that..... Maybe those who have killed more than one could shed some light on the subject. Let's see..... who should we ask???!!! Maybe someone who has bragged about killing three should do.

reply from: emarmol

The law states that abortion is legal and a womans choice, most people would not consider abortion as murder but the law is not always right.
If a drunk driver kills a mother who is pregnant he will be charged with two murders, even if the mother was on her way to an abortion clinic. Go figure!
This by it self proves that the law that permits abortions is wrong and needs to be changed.
In my opinion, if the fetus has a heart beat its a baby and no longer just a fetus as they call it and has the right to life inside or outside the mothers womb.
If a mother/father/parent to be is at a muturity level where she or he understands what she or he is doing as being wrong then its wrong.
Our inner self tells us when something is right or wrong assuming that we are not emotionaly disturbed etc. I understand that men or the parents will sometimes force the mother to make the choice as they call it and on the other hand sometimes the father or the parent is not even aware of the pregnancy.
Either way, its legal but its wrong!
If we are not yet muture then what we do not understand can not completely be our own doing and the parents or legal gaurdian needs to be held responsible to some degree if aware of the situation but again the law fails us here aswell since the law allows a child to make this choice without the parents knowing.
This is why moral issues should be approved by the church prior to the government or state making something legal when the law effects moral issues and especially the life of a human, especially a defenceless unborn or born child.
Its common sense that the law is wrong but so many people approve and support this law.
The Church needs to regain control of all moral issues that effect the world and we need to support the Church in this 100% If all of Gods people unite on this there is no reason why this law and other stupid laws can not be changed.
How hard can it be, the Church is huge and combined with all other God loving faiths there is no reason for this.
We need to join forces with all religious groups and sign what ever it takes and if it's money that is needed then we need to raise it with all religious groups that still hold life as something that only God has control over. Our souls depend on this!
The problem is that some people do not see passed the present physical state and do not care about their eternal life anymore and the Government supports this idea when they pass laws like the Choice law. The Government/courts need to consult the churches on these types of matters, its that simple!
People can not be given this type of choice, people do not always have the morality to make the right choice.
Anyone who is reading this needs to share this with their church. Togethere we can and will change this and other stupid laws.

reply from: sheri

Cheerio, I think you need to do a little more research. I do not believe it is possible for the uterine lining to build up to its normal point in as many as 3 to 4 days post ovulation. There have been studies that prove that the pill does in fact thin the lining, that it is POSSIBLE for a child to implant in this enviroment we all know, that it sometimes will cause the deflection of another child is probable at the most optimistic.
I would like to know what good studies you have seen, the amount of research on this subject is scarce.
As a way to further my point about the abortion - pill equation, would you mind giving a brief description of how it would impact your life to give up chemical BC.
I hate to be so forward in asking but you seem pretty open and I thought you may not mind shedding some light on this subject for me. My apologies if I have overstepped.

reply from: faithman

I don't think that's a valid argument to use to evaluate the severity of a crime.
While some people may suppress their conscience, or go into denial, those acts alone are a basis for making their crimes more serious, IMO.
The lack of a conscience is a valid reason to make the punishment even more severe, IMO, because that condition makes it more likely that they will repeat their crime.
I guess the first one is the tuffest. After that..... Maybe those who have killed more than one could shed some light on the subject. Let's see..... who should we ask???!!! Maybe someone who has bragged about killing three should do.

reply from: sheri

Yoda, when i say they do not have a well formed concience i do not mean they are in a state of denial, as someone would be if they had killed a child with their bare hands and then said it wasnt a child they had killed. I am speaking of people who have never learned human development and kids who are gullable enough to buy PPs lies and people who simply never learned right from wrong.
I know you have been working to save babies for many long years, you must have come into contact with women who saw your pictures of the preborn and understood for the first time what abortion is. That is the majority, I believe. Im not saying that their culpablility is negated by their ignorance, only lessened.
The need for a second party as well as the legality of the issue only cause to cloud the womans mind. People do not question that it is wrong to kill the handicapped because it is not legal. It would be as excepted here as it was in Germany '40- '45, if it was legal.

reply from: yoda

The photos cut through the denial many people live in. The are comfortable in their denials, as long as they are around other people living in the same state of denial and no one challenges them. The photos challenge them, and most cannot answer the challenge in any way except to admit the truth right before their eyes. That's an excellent outcome, but I honestly don't think that being in denial makes one any less guilty. It just makes you a self-deceiver, and that's another layer of guilt, IMO.
True, legality adds another barrier to the denial. But ask yourself this: If you had lived in prewar Germany and had bought into the "Jews are rodents" propaganda, would you be any less guilty simply because all your friends were buying into it? Or would you just be guilty of giving in to the "herd mentality"?

reply from: yoda

That pretty well speaks for itself, doesn't it?

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yeah, that was a good point. They're told it's just tissue. I showed pictures to a girl a few weeks ago and she said - 'I thought they did that before it was a baby'. You know - it's like the f'n stork!
Then it's all on them, not you or me You can only tell them (remind them) of what's right and wrong.
No, no. It's just these people who see abortion and infanticide as two different things. They have similarities and differences but the underlying truth is that they are the same. A mother who kills her three year old is under the same stress and responsibility as the one contemplating murdering her newly conceived. We should be talking about their similarities not trying to defend abortion as being so entirely different.
It's murder no matter what age. I am awed by what's happened. It's less like a holocaust and more like a famine of concern.

reply from: faithman

What the bortheads, and the false pro-lifers do not understand, is that there is more to life than this physical world, and our physical bodies. Our bodies are merely the containers of the precious substance Called life. Life has to have that container to express itself in the natural world. Even if the container is flawed, it still makes it possible for the miracle of life to be expressed. Our common value is not found in the container, but what is contained. The life of a womb child is equal to the life contained in all of us. The only legitimate breaking of this container, is if it has the compunction to smash other containers without cause. When you take way the ability to express life, you loose the great privilege to express your own. Evil aggression must be subdued, or no container can have any security from unjust breakage. To take away the possibility of this wonderful spark of life to be expressed, makes this world a darker place, and the rest of us containers a little more impoverished, and alone. Though the womb child is a small container, it does not lessen the value of the life it contains. If fellow containers do not value the life of the womb child container, then they have placed their personhood container in great jeopardy. Anyone who does not see that womb children are fellow human containers, containing life of equal value to their own, is a self destructive fool, drunk on the power to kill, and must be stopped for the sake of the rest of us life containers. It is the life in us that makes us equal, not our degree of ability to express it.

reply from: sheri

I hear what your saying with the whole herd mentality thing, and i dont believe the germans were justified in their denial, just as a woman who aborts after quickening is in a state of denial. However i can understand how a person can be made to believe it is not a baby untill later in the pregnancy, just as i can believe a german on the outskirts of town may truly believe they were just reeducation camps.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Yoda, there is no excuse for either abortion or for a sniper killing someone from a distance. Both are murder.

reply from: faithman

But you just don't get it. the great wise CM says there is so there must be. Having killed three, she is just SSSSSSOOOOO much smarter than anybody else. According to her, abortion is not murder, and a woman who cold bloodedly kills to high tail it back to the corner in trick town, is totally justified in not letting a "fetus" get in the way of business. After all, we don't see the little begger being torn to bits, SSSSSOOOOO that makes it different than a mom who has grown tired of a born child, and drives them into the lake or ends her prob with a butcher knife. But the abortionist is wrong, just not the women who pays the abortionist to do their dirty work for them. Does that straighten it all out for you?

reply from: yoda

True.
And I resent the constant harping about one murder not being the "same thing" as another murder. Why should we waste our time debating the degree of guilt of the killers, when all elective killing of innocents is so wrong that there should never be any debate about it?
It seems to me that there is no point except to make excuses for the killers.

reply from: AshMarie88

Originally posted by: carolemarie
Yes and no. In most cases, born children normally aren't torn to bits and pieces while they are still alive and then they aren't flushed down sinks and put in jars to be stored. So in that case, no, they're not different.
But, yes, they are similar too because a child is purposely, forcefully KILLED. Like BossMomma said before, it doesn't matter what the gestation is, we're still the same from conception thru natural death. I once had some dumby tell me that we ourselves were not fetuses, because right before birth we "left a shell" in which we turned into ourselves. I guess we weren't even in the womb... someone else was.

reply from: yoda

And that "similarity" is so strong that it makes any discussion of "differences" nothing more than a distraction, a waste of time and effort.
It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic..... what does it matter?

reply from: faithman

And that "similarity" is so strong that it makes any discussion of "differences" nothing more than a distraction, a waste of time and effort.
It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic..... what does it matter?
Maybe CM can take a few lessons from http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/?action=view¤t=allie.jpg, and actually stand for the womb child, insted of making excusses for their distruction. Even a young child can see that the womb child is equal in value to themselves.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

But you just don't get it. the great wise CM says there is so there must be. Having killed three, she is just SSSSSSOOOOO much smarter than anybody else. According to her, abortion is not murder, and a woman who cold bloodedly kills to high tail it back to the corner in trick town, is totally justified in not letting a "fetus" get in the way of business. After all, we don't see the little begger being torn to bits, SSSSSOOOOO that makes it different than a mom who has grown tired of a born child, and drives them into the lake or ends her prob with a butcher knife. But the abortionist is wrong, just not the women who pays the abortionist to do their dirty work for them. Does that straighten it all out for you?
So much of what you say makes sense, but I simply do not understand why you seem to think that women who have abortions are PROSTITUTES who just want to get rid of the baby so that they can return to their street corners.
Most women who abort are NOT hookers, they are scared girls and women who don't know what to do or where to turn. Some are as young as 12 or 13, some are older women who already have children, some are college or high school students who are afraid that, if they stop their education to have a baby, they will never get their diploma or degree.
Where did your "hooker fetish" come from? It's just so far from reality that it makes you look uninformed or misinformed, when I know you really are not stupid. Is it within your capability to look at women who are interested in getting abortions as what they REALLY are - girls and women who are afraid or desperate or both? You will have a far greater impact for the good if you are able to get the hooker thing off your mind and view them as regular women in a bad situation.
They need our help and understanding, not insults and derision.

reply from: faithman

Makes you wonder just how beautiful 3 of them would have been if allowed to live by a heartless mom who tramples their memory up with her emotional grabbing excuses. Insted of blessing the world with beaty, she gave us http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby1.html then makes excuses because after all women are afraid of the big mean "fetus". I think sick falls way short in discribing such thoughts, excuses, and actions. If that makes me a bigoted hater, then I wear that badge with honor....

reply from: faithman

But you just don't get it. the great wise CM says there is so there must be. Having killed three, she is just SSSSSSOOOOO much smarter than anybody else. According to her, abortion is not murder, and a woman who cold bloodedly kills to high tail it back to the corner in trick town, is totally justified in not letting a "fetus" get in the way of business. After all, we don't see the little begger being torn to bits, SSSSSOOOOO that makes it different than a mom who has grown tired of a born child, and drives them into the lake or ends her prob with a butcher knife. But the abortionist is wrong, just not the women who pays the abortionist to do their dirty work for them. Does that straighten it all out for you?
So much of what you say makes sense, but I simply do not understand why you seem to think that women who have abortions are PROSTITUTES who just want to get rid of the baby so that they can return to their street corners.
Most women who abort are NOT hookers, they are scared girls and women who don't know what to do or where to turn. Some are as young as 12 or 13, some are older women who already have children, some are college or high school students who are afraid that, if they stop their education to have a baby, they will never get their diploma or degree.
Where did your "hooker fetish" come from? It's just so far from reality that it makes you look uninformed or misinformed, when I know you really are not stupid. Is it within your capability to look at women who are interested in getting abortions as what they REALLY are - girls and women who are afraid or desperate or both? You will have a far greater impact for the good if you are able to get the hooker thing off your mind and view them as regular women in a bad situation.
They need our help and understanding, not insults and derision.
Context dearest one!!!! Show me one post where I said all women are prostitutes who get abortions. I am replying to the one who point blank said that was the case. And in case you are not aware of it, our IAAP effort is starting to impact the whole nation. SSSSSOOOOO before you look down your holier than thou nose and talk down to me, it would save you from looking so foolish if you got your facts right.

reply from: ChristianLott2

I think carole was trying to make the point that women sometimes think a pre born is a wad of tissue and the post born a 'real' baby.
Like the deer in the woods analogy. You thought it was a deer behind the bush, you shot, it turned out to be a person - but shooting point blank at another person is obviously murder, not unintentional murder.
The problem here is that a murderer in any case never really understands the value of life (by definition). So someone who kills their child or another person point blank is always like the person shooting at the bush. They shot before they thought.
Caylee's mother was someone who probably thought the child's worth less than hers. That's what she has in common with the 30-50 million women who've had abortions and all the other murderers in this world.

reply from: faithman

http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby1.html

reply from: lycan

https://http://rightremedy.org/articles/226
I don't think that's a valid argument to use to evaluate the severity of a crime.
While some people may suppress their conscience, or go into denial, those acts alone are a basis for making their crimes more serious, IMO.
The lack of a conscience is a valid reason to make the punishment even more severe, IMO, because that condition makes it more likely that they will repeat their crime.
I guess the first one is the tuffest. After that..... Maybe those who have killed more than one could shed some light on the subject. Let's see..... who should we ask???!!! Maybe someone who has bragged about killing three should do.
Faithman, I've been off-and-on involved in pro-life activities for a number of years. The way you treat CaroleMarie and others is downright unconscionable.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

But you just don't get it. the great wise CM says there is so there must be. Having killed three, she is just SSSSSSOOOOO much smarter than anybody else. According to her, abortion is not murder, and a woman who cold bloodedly kills to high tail it back to the corner in trick town, is totally justified in not letting a "fetus" get in the way of business. After all, we don't see the little begger being torn to bits, SSSSSOOOOO that makes it different than a mom who has grown tired of a born child, and drives them into the lake or ends her prob with a butcher knife. But the abortionist is wrong, just not the women who pays the abortionist to do their dirty work for them. Does that straighten it all out for you?
So much of what you say makes sense, but I simply do not understand why you seem to think that women who have abortions are PROSTITUTES who just want to get rid of the baby so that they can return to their street corners.
Most women who abort are NOT hookers, they are scared girls and women who don't know what to do or where to turn. Some are as young as 12 or 13, some are older women who already have children, some are college or high school students who are afraid that, if they stop their education to have a baby, they will never get their diploma or degree.
Where did your "hooker fetish" come from? It's just so far from reality that it makes you look uninformed or misinformed, when I know you really are not stupid. Is it within your capability to look at women who are interested in getting abortions as what they REALLY are - girls and women who are afraid or desperate or both? You will have a far greater impact for the good if you are able to get the hooker thing off your mind and view them as regular women in a bad situation.
They need our help and understanding, not insults and derision.
Context dearest one!!!! Show me one post where I said all women are prostitutes who get abortions. I am replying to the one who point blank said that was the case. And in case you are not aware of it, our IAAP effort is starting to impact the whole nation. SSSSSOOOOO before you look down your holier than thou nose and talk down to me, it would save you from looking so foolish if you got your facts right.
I've read that implication in many of your posts. Possibly they were directed at CM, because I am aware of her history and her current ministry dealing with prostitutes??? Don't get your knickers in a knot about it, I was just wondering if that was the way you viewed most women who have abortions. Apparently it's just CM that irks you no end.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

lycan said:
Faithman, I've been off-and-on involved in pro-life activities for a number of years. The way you treat CaroleMarie and others is downright unconscionable.
My response:
I believe carolmarie is wrong and naive on many issues. But she also wants to be helpful in reducing or eliminating abortions; so I would go easy on her.
I agree with lycan that CarolMarie's treatment is unconscionable (that does not mean that I agree with her).
With radicals seeming to dominate in many Pro-Life locations, I've nearly decided myself to stop the debate.
Like concernedparent before me, I may walk quietly away and stop posting. I've already determined that I can't be on the streets associating with the radicals who don't condemn violence by pro-lifers. So what's the point, I'm half-way out the door already.
Certainly, in one on one situations I will continue to tell people they are engaging in first degree intentional homicide if they kill their little son or daughter. But to hob-nob with potential AOG type characters on the internet can not be; I'm not Obama after all.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

And there have been studies done to DISPROVE it. I'll never believe it until a majority of scientists and medical professionals believe it.

reply from: Rosalie

But you just don't get it. the great wise CM says there is so there must be. Having killed three, she is just SSSSSSOOOOO much smarter than anybody else. According to her, abortion is not murder, and a woman who cold bloodedly kills to high tail it back to the corner in trick town, is totally justified in not letting a "fetus" get in the way of business. After all, we don't see the little begger being torn to bits, SSSSSOOOOO that makes it different than a mom who has grown tired of a born child, and drives them into the lake or ends her prob with a butcher knife. But the abortionist is wrong, just not the women who pays the abortionist to do their dirty work for them. Does that straighten it all out for you?
So much of what you say makes sense, but I simply do not understand why you seem to think that women who have abortions are PROSTITUTES who just want to get rid of the baby so that they can return to their street corners.
Most women who abort are NOT hookers, they are scared girls and women who don't know what to do or where to turn. Some are as young as 12 or 13, some are older women who already have children, some are college or high school students who are afraid that, if they stop their education to have a baby, they will never get their diploma or degree.
Where did your "hooker fetish" come from? It's just so far from reality that it makes you look uninformed or misinformed, when I know you really are not stupid. Is it within your capability to look at women who are interested in getting abortions as what they REALLY are - girls and women who are afraid or desperate or both? You will have a far greater impact for the good if you are able to get the hooker thing off your mind and view them as regular women in a bad situation.
They need our help and understanding, not insults and derision.
He obviously dislikes women. Though he tries to cover it by hating on just some of them but his attitude just gives it away. Somehow it makes him feel better to insult, judge and be horrible to them. It almost looks like there's some huge complex underneath all that. And it's also very clear that he doesn't care about stopping the need for abortion. He doesn't understand it, he doesn't understand women - he can only hate and spam.

reply from: yoda

The thing is, even the German civilians that lived near the camps suspected that there was something awful going on there, because they say so many Jews coming in, and none going out. But they supressed their suspicions, because it would have been very dangerous for them to have questioned what was going on, so they "played it safe", just like I suspect that a lot of women "play it safe" and don't question the lies they are being told. They'd rather be "safe" than know the truth.

reply from: yoda

So what you are saying is that you don't WANT to believe it, or even be "neutral" about it!

reply from: joe

Your position is illogical and immoral.
You belong with concernedparent as a traitor.
Idea: According to your doctrine, when you die and become a god you can make the "give to the government that which is not the government's" one of your ten commandments.

reply from: yoda

"Hob-nob"? Is that what we're doing here? Why didn't someone tell me?
All this time, I've been posting on my own, independent of anyone else, trying to speak out for the voiceless, to stand up for the defenseless, and now I find out I'm supposed to be "hob-nobbing"?
Joe, did you know we were supposed to be "hob-nobing"?
Why am I always the last to find out these thing?

reply from: 4given

"Hob-nob"? Is that what we're doing here? Why didn't someone tell me?
All this time, I've been posting on my own, independent of anyone else, trying to speak out for the voiceless, to stand up for the defenseless, and now I find out I'm supposed to be "hob-nobbing"?
Joe, did you know we were supposed to be "hob-nobing"?
Why am I always the last to find out these thing? Oh dear Yoda! My son just read and said he too was shocked at what you have been doing here. In fact he said he thought your only crime would be "rabble-rousing". That also surprises me. Don't dismay friend. I am sure you were the last to find out that you were a hateful sort as well. Hey- let's "hob-nob" real soon.

reply from: Banned Member

If Yoda is hob-nobbing what does that make what I do?

reply from: CharlesD

Rabble rousing and general mayhem?

reply from: carolemarie

Posting on this or any board is useful in the fact that some people will change their point of view. We have several on this board who have, due to some reasonable prolife people who listened and had a conversation.
On the streets, I have met very few people who go to abortion clinics who are for killing abortion doctors. Those who like to tour around with the bloody fetus signs and street preach tend to be a different lot They like controversy and like to provoke people. Not all of them, but enought that it helps to ask them point blank before you join up.
I like Matt and his missionarie as individuals, but I don't associate with those who advocate killing people. Being prolife, I am against murder.
So don't quit doing things, just don't let those who hate beat you down. It is never okay to kill other people, be they fetuses or abortion providers.

reply from: 4given

I don't agree. "Join up" with what or whom? The active? I have not experienced anything negative with those that choose the graphic *REAL* images. None wanted to provoke anyone to anything but the reality of abortion. It is important to use the images that depict the actual abortions and gestational age when at a clinic though. The live pictures as well as the aborted are necessary IMO. You said yourself that it was a Malachi sign that helped you realize or think of a an aborted child as a person. BOTH are necessary.

reply from: carolemarie

I was referring to the Missionaries for the Preborn.. They do large truth tours and their leader and lots of the ones who go with him support shooting abortion providers. I didn't know Matt felt that way and did a truth tour with them, I did a TV show with Drew and didn't know he felt that way either.
The graphic signs are not the problem. They are useful at abortion clinics. I would ask any group I was going to hang with what they believed about the use of force against abortion providers before I would hook up with them.

reply from: carolemarie

Originally posted by: carolemarie
I was referring to the Missionaries for the Preborn.. They do large truth tours and their leader and lots of the ones who go with him support shooting abortion providers. I didn't know Matt felt that way and did a truth tour with them, I did a TV show with Drew and didn't know he felt that way either.
The graphic signs are not the problem. They are useful at abortion clinics. I would ask any group I was going to hang with what they believed about the use of force against abortion providers before I would hook up with them.
And yes, that Malachi sign was a shocker. I was so freaked out by it, because I didn't do THAT! q]

reply from: 4given

Okay. For most the action to word is hard enough to muster. It seems like many lack foot to conviction. I have no problem with the MTTP. I have a great deal of respect for them. Best to not judge any statement unduly. Nor an organization and its members. I respect the active. I do not believe that MTTP advocates "use of force against abortion providers ".

reply from: 4given

I don't either, but I know plenty of people that keep the fence warm without thought about trying to change this world or save one baby from abortion and one woman from future regret. I have engaged many, some related to me, about how they need to stand up and was disgusted and discouraged by the response. I don't understand how one would have an opinion on the matter and dispel any potentially necessary action in that regard. I sent some IAAP posters and cards with them. Time will tell. If one has conviction enough to post their views here, then why not elsewhere?
Right. I am sure you are. The saying "misery loves company". When many of my "friends" learned of my views, they chose to abandon those friendships eventually. What has discouraged me most is in regard to the family and friends that share my beliefs, yet cop a "choice" attitude. "Not my body. Not my baby. Not my salvation..."
Anyway, I am thankful for your time and presence at the clinics Carole. It must have been bittersweet in a way. As I have stated before, if only you had a Carolemarie.

reply from: 4given

Do you believe that abortion is murder?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I consider abortion to be one of several things. For many women, they consider it to be self-defense, and I can see that aspect of it. In other cases, it is unintended manslaughter because the woman doesn't consider the unborn to be a person, so they don't realise they are killing a real person. Or they may not realize how quickly the unborn develops. Thirdly, it can simply be considered manslaughter when the woman is aware of what the child was.
I think most women who abort truly feel they need to do it, not so much that they want to do it. That's what most women who have aborted that I talked to have said. "I needed to abort. No one WANTS to abort, they HAVE to abort." So these women see a need to abort, whether from societal pressures or personal ones. What pro-lifers can do is show these women there IS no need. But this is also why for most women abortion is an act of self-defense. It is their mindset.

reply from: carolemarie

Do you believe that abortion is murder?
I believe it is killing.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion is what they call it. What do you call it?
When a human being kills another innocent human being it is called something. What do you call it?

reply from: yoda

Yes, I was. It's shocking! What if the babies find out?
Okay, I'm all up for this "hob-nobbing" business, how do we start?

reply from: yoda

Who's the hob and who's the nob?

reply from: yoda

The Center for Bioethical Reform, Justice for All, Operation Rescue, and a number of other groups "tour around withe the bloody fetus signs". None of them "like controversy" and/or "like to provoke people", to the best of my knowledge. The only one you have accused of that is MTTP, and to the best of my knowledge they don't like either of those things either. I worked briefly with MTTP in Chattanooga TN, and they did not seem to be pursuing either of those things.
And while they may express sympathy for those who commit violent acts, and I have never heard of any of them say that they "support shooting abortion providers". Saying publicly saying that they support shooting abortion providers would be an illegal act, because it would be an encouragement to break the law, and whoever said that would be in jail now.
You really ought to be more careful how you characterize people and their statements, unless you have a link to it. There is no need to lie about other prolifers just because you disagree with them.

reply from: yoda

Excuses, excuses, excuses........ as Mark Crutcher says, "There is NO NEED for abortion".

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Abortion is what they call it. What do you call it?
When a human being kills another innocent human being it is called something. What do you call it?
I call it abortion when the unborn is removed from the mother in a process that purposely kills it.
When a human being kills another innocent human being it is called many things, including but not limited to manslaughter, self-defense, unintended manslaughter, murder, and abortion.

reply from: faithman

Excuses, excuses, excuses........ as Mark Crutcher says, "There is NO NEED for abortion".
Need.... want...... the result is the same no manner what banner you fly it under. A dead defenceless womb child.

reply from: yoda

Ah, but a "need" is an excuse, whereas a "want" is not.

reply from: faithman

Yes, I was. It's shocking! What if the babies find out?
Okay, I'm all up for this "hob-nobbing" business, how do we start?
hob hob hob...nob nob nob.... ing

reply from: carolemarie

Could have fooled me, a real pro-lifer wouldn't differentiate an unborn child from a born child. You spend so much time dehumanizing the unborn child and kissing the abortion provider's butt I really must wonder if you see anything wrong with it at all. Did you think the doctor (I use the term loosely) who provided your abortions helped you? Obviously not from your previous posts.
I believe they thought they were helping me.

reply from: teddybearhamster

yes i believe killing a born and unborn child are the same thing. they are just at different stages in human development. it's like asking if killing an infant is the same as killing a toddler. yes. just because one is younger doesn't make it any less of a murder.

reply from: carolemarie

It amazes you that a former pro-choicer could so clearly see the error of her ways? It amazes me that a woman would abort three children, defend her abortion provider by calling him/her a caring helpful individual right after going on about how much she regrets her choice then continue to dehumanize the unborn child. Hate speach is no way to put out an important message but neither is backsliding fallacy.
1. I was a kid, not a woman, (15, 16 and 180 at the time. The providers were kind to me and treated me better than some of the people who claim to be Christian on this board do.
2. I do regret my choices now. That doesn't negate the fact that the clinic staff were nice to me and the providers were professional. Why should I lie about that?
3. I am not dehumanizing the embryo, merely pointing out the two things, abortion and killing a born child are not the same thing. That is prolife propaganda. Just like it is pro-abortion propaganda to claim that an embryo isn't a person.
4. And no, it never suprises me when pro-choicers change sides. I did, because the prolife position is right.
3.

reply from: teddybearhamster

carolemarie, i disagree that an unborn isn't the same as a born child. i think they are just at different stages in human development but that doesn't make the unborn less of a person. i am so so sorry that you were lied to as a young scared girl. abortion providers are good at decieving people. i'm sorry that happened to you.

reply from: carolemarie

I call abortion a tragic mistake.

reply from: teddybearhamster

it is very tragic that those clinic people took advantage of a naive, scared girl (like they do everyday) and commit the worst violation against them. again, i'm sorry they did that to you.

reply from: carolemarie

Thank you for the sympathy, but they didn't decieve me or take advantage of me. I chose to have an abortion because it seemed like the best choice for me, I was unable to be a mother at that point in time. What is deplorable is the lack of help or people willing to come and offer help to a kid in trouble. That is why we have to be willing to go and offer help to people we meet at abortion clinics.

reply from: teddybearhamster

i agree that going to the clinics to help the young women in bad situations is a great idea. i still say they decieved you and took advantage of you. the decieved you into thinking abortion was the best option for you. they smiled and pretended to give a damn and then violated you and your children in the worst way. it's what they do. that's their business. everday they commit crimes against women and children.

reply from: Banned Member

Yes, abortion is the same thing as murder. Abotrtion is the same exact thing as if you killed your own born child with your own hands. There is no difference between the child in the womb and the child that has been born! The killing of an innocent person is murder. I don't care if the courts don't call it murder. The courts are wrong!

reply from: 4given

Thank you for the sympathy, but they didn't decieve me or take advantage of me. I chose to have an abortion because it seemed like the best choice for me, I was unable to be a mother at that point in time. What is deplorable is the lack of help or people willing to come and offer help to a kid in trouble. That is why we have to be willing to go and offer help to people we meet at abortion clinics.What?! I am sure you realize that isn't true. There were plenty of families- people that would have been delighted to help you and help either one of your children into their homes and lives. It is sad to me that none of the pro-lifers were active when you went to the clinics, or that if there were some there, you may have dismissed them. Do you think that the lack of counselors and your own history of abandonment and abortions causes you to somehow blame others (in the pro-life movement) for not intervening? You said "What is deplorable is the lack of help or people willing to come and offer help to a kid in trouble. " I believe that you didn't realize(or consider) that help was available. You have what I would like to believe is a unique situation. It does not change or justify the fact that you chose death for your children. Superdeterminism doesn't work in the "real world" unfortunately. Should have, could have, would have.. Sure. So how do we change all of that?

reply from: teddybearhamster

the abortion culture we now live in has desensitized a lot of people and the clinics and abortion providers are making bank on decieving women into believing it's okay to get an abortion, that it's just a 'choice'.

reply from: 4given

Okay. I didn't ever believe that abortion was okay. I can see how others may be so morally bankrupt that killing another human life isn't an issue of concern to them. Cute how the health/life/rape issues come up.. but only a weak justification for the convenient dismemberment in the majority elective killings.. The abortion industry only cares about the bottom line- the bloodied one- cash. There are countless accounts of women that have been lied to and coerced. Sadly there are women fully aware of the facts and they still don't regard the life of their child over whatever weak justification that suits their decision to kill him or her. It is "just a choice" sadly. But one that impacts more than the mutilated child in the womb. Many women, men, famuilies and friendships have suffered because of this "choice".

reply from: teddybearhamster

thank God this horrific culture hasn't desensitized everyone. you're right that the abortion industry only cares about their bottom line

reply from: 4given

Agreed. We have a fight though. Rear your children with the facts. Abortion ends with them. I am confident in that fact. I have failed the threatened unborn. My children are fully aware (aborted photos as well as live and abortion facts) of what abortion is and does and also have relatives that have aborted and were harmed. Educate.

reply from: yoda

Yes, I was. It's shocking! What if the babies find out?
Okay, I'm all up for this "hob-nobbing" business, how do we start?
hob hob hob...nob nob nob.... ing
Wait, that's three hobs and then three nobs, right?

reply from: carolemarie

Thank you for the sympathy, but they didn't decieve me or take advantage of me. I chose to have an abortion because it seemed like the best choice for me, I was unable to be a mother at that point in time. What is deplorable is the lack of help or people willing to come and offer help to a kid in trouble. That is why we have to be willing to go and offer help to people we meet at abortion clinics.What?! I am sure you realize that isn't true. There were plenty of families- people that would have been delighted to help you and help either one of your children into their homes and lives. It is sad to me that none of the pro-lifers were active when you went to the clinics, or that if there were some there, you may have dismissed them. Do you think that the lack of counselors and your own history of abandonment and abortions causes you to somehow blame others (in the pro-life movement) for not intervening? You said "What is deplorable is the lack of help or people willing to come and offer help to a kid in trouble. " I believe that you didn't realize(or consider) that help was available. You have what I would like to believe is a unique situation. It does not change or justify the fact that you chose death for your children. Superdeterminism doesn't work in the "real world" unfortunately. Should have, could have, would have.. Sure. So how do we change all of that?
I didn't know how to do any of that... I was 15 and a runaway...
I didn't have the information that I have now.
All I know is that abortion is legal and we should offer help to women faced with a situtation they think is so bad that abortion is their only option.
FYI- I don't blame anyone but myself. It was my choices that placed me in the situtation and I continued down that path. I don't even know if anyone had been there if I would have listened. I would assume no.

reply from: yoda

You mean before the first one, or the second one, or the third one?

reply from: Carifairy

It's so funny...
People say "15/16 year old's are not mature enough to make the decision to have an abortion without parental consent..."
YET, people expect carolmarie as a 15 year old to completely understand how to not only get off the streets as a 15 year old runaway, but to suddenly make everything better and have a baby..
The truth is that some 15 year old's are more resourceful and mature than others , and some are not. This is not a knock at you, carolmarie, just an observation..
I would imagine that she had very little hope, very little ANYTHING.
I do not see why her past is such a big deal to other people.. IT IS PAST... Gone...bye bye...never coming back...

reply from: LiberalChiRo

People on this forum act like morons, that's why. Self-rightious, bigoted morons.

reply from: yoda

Like I said, was she 15 before the first one, the second one, or the third one?
What is the point of stating your "imagination"?
That would work for me..... I'm not the one who brought it up to begin with. I'm more concerned about the here and now, and what is being said today.

reply from: yoda

Bump for lack of response.

reply from: carolemarie

What is your question?

reply from: yoda

On this page, there is one to you, and three to carifairy.

reply from: socratease

Abortion objectively kills a person, so it is always an injustice as far as that person who is killed is concerned.
But if someone aborts in ignornance or under pressure, it is not the same as killing someone with full knowledge or with malice.
If abortion were not the same thing as killing a child, there would be no prolifers.
But as far as the culpability and guilt of the aborter--that is not the same, unless it is done so with full knowledge and full consent of the will.

reply from: lycan

Like I said, was she 15 before the first one, the second one, or the third one?
What is the point of stating your "imagination"?
That would work for me..... I'm not the one who brought it up to begin with. I'm more concerned about the here and now, and what is being said today.
Yoda, is it really important when CM had each of her abortions? She's trying to put her past behind her and try to help others learn from her mistakes. Oh, and if Augustine gets sent to a militantly pro-abortion psychologist are you going to decide he's not dedicated enough?

reply from: socratease

How can someone who is "uninformed" do something "consciously and willfully"?
Doesn't "actual guilt" take into consideration whether someone knows what they are doing?

reply from: Banned Member

Honestly, what can you think an abortion does if not cause the death of an unborn child?
Women choose abortion for one reason and one reason alone; to not have babies!

reply from: socratease

Some abort out of ignorance and don't realize what an abortion does until after the fact, so we cannot say that if she is uninformed that she knows what she is doing.

reply from: Rosalie

I am very, VERY sorry that there was no one available to help you. This is what me and all the pro-choice people I know in real life concentrate on. Being there for women or girls in the same situation you were in once. We're trying to prevent exactly what you are feeling right now. We don't want them to feel like they had no other choice. Either it's their decision but if it's not, if it's circumstances forcing her to do that and if she wants to keep the baby, we are doing everything we can to help her.
I know that this forum in particular is huge on blaming pro-choicers for all the evils of this world and making us seem like we're some kind of monsters but it's all just unbounded ignorance, perpetuated by all the irrational hatred so many "pro-lifers" here are displaying.
I'm glad that there are people like you who see beyond the hateful propaganda.

reply from: Rosalie

There is.
People like YOU have done virtually NOTHING to make the NEED go away. What an accomplishment.
Women choose abortion for many reasons. This is one of them. Nothing's wrong with that.
Careful, your misogyny is showing.

reply from: carolemarie

Choosing abortion is a mixed thing. There are lots of reasons and influences on the woman who is seeking one. Some of it itsn't logical or rational.
But if you want to help her make a better decision you better be willing to help her and not judge her. And even if she chooses an option you don't like, you should still be willing to care about her and be her friend and help her make better choices so she will not be back, and since half of all abortions are repeat abortions, that is a real possiblity.
Most people respond better to people who really care about them. Love is the strongest weapon we have to influence people for the better.

reply from: faithman

SSSSSOOOO let's just moddy coddle all killers, and crap all over the ones being killed. What about love for the Babies? Of course you have proven to not have love for your own children, what would make us think you would have any for any pre-born child? You hate your pre-born niebor, and prove it with almost every post. Your kind of love means a hatful brutal death to the womb child, while honoring their killers with a mercy that is undeserved, and most assuredly fosters future death to the pre-born. Yeah, lets all follow a baby killer, and assure ourselves of future womb children to morn. You are no voice for the voicless, and anybody who thinks so is a self deluded fool.

reply from: Banned Member

Love that is not based in the truth is an illusion.

reply from: faithman

Cruel is the mercy of the wicked....

reply from: carolemarie

You can tell the truth without being hateful or hurtful. You can still love someone who does something wrong!

reply from: Banned Member

Define hateful or hurtful?

reply from: carolemarie

Read a faithman post. That is hateful.
Telling women to choose life and not being willing to help them with what they need to do it, hateful and hurtful
Calling women names is hurtful

reply from: faithman

/////who ever said anything about not being willing to help others. That is a bald face lie comming straight from your baby killing mouth. You are the hater, and proved it by killing three, and now trying to slander those who actually stand for the womb child. You are projecting your hatful presumptions, with out one shred of evidence. Just who are you talking about killer? Who is not willing to help women with ther needs? Properly identifying a killer is the first step in stopping them, and protecting the truely innocent. I copuld fall ito your trap, and once again list all the things I do to reach out to the poor, only to thing be accused of bragging, all just to distract from the real issue here. try to project your hate if you will, but the truth is you are the enemy of the womb child both in word and deed. If the name killer hurts you, then it should. Stop being one, and you won't have a prob now will you?

reply from: carolemarie

Use the ignore button if I bug you so much. I resent being called a baby killer. I do not "kill babies". I do not support abortion. I work to stop it.
The difference is I don't hate women. I don't hate people who are making terrible choices. I don't hate anyone, not even you.

reply from: yoda

I thought you said you had him on ignore?

reply from: ChristianLott2

Yeah, sometimes abortion can be good. Heck, sometimes it can be GREAT, right Cari?
Cari and Carole. So much in common. So many women to coddle and babies to waste, so little time.

reply from: Nulono

Slavery and the Holocaust were both legal, and even protected by law.

reply from: Nulono

Also, supporters of slavery (maybe of the Holocaust) did not see the victims as human, and slavery was not done out of malice. Also, you can kill a born person indirectly through a hitman.

reply from: carolemarie

Yeah, sometimes abortion can be good. Heck, sometimes it can be GREAT, right Cari?
Cari and Carole. So much in common. So many women to coddle and babies to waste, so little time.
Cari and I have different opinions on abortion in case the point missed you.


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