Home - List All Discussions

"I'm Pro life, but outlawing abortion isn't the answer..."

What? Kind? of pro life? is that?

by: ProInformed

I agree - how is it pro-life to defend keeping it legal to kill unborn babies?
That's like somebody saying they're opposed to rape but don't want rape to be illegal...
or pro-choice but don't want it to be illegal to lie to women or to pressure them in order to COERCE or CON them INTO aborting...

reply from: yoda

It isn't prolife at all. It's prochoice.

reply from: Banned Member

Please, according to you every woman who aborts was coerced or conned, or they are just heartless murderers. you are so pathetic.

reply from: nancyu

Please, according to you every woman who aborts was coerced or conned, or they are just heartless murderers. you are so pathetic.
Hmmm...if none of the above, what then?

reply from: Banned Member

oh, I don't know, an intelligent woman who knows what's right for her & her alone, who is capable of making decisions on her own, who researches the facts on her own & doesn't need someone to spoon feed her information, a self confident woman who can think for herself & doesn't need approval from others.
Really you don't realize how bad of a light you paint women in when you imply that the majority of us can't think for ourselves & just let ourselves be pushed around all the time. But then most of you are anti-women, so it makes sense.

reply from: ProInformed

oh, I don't know, an intelligent woman who knows what's right for her & her alone, who is capable of making decisions on her own, who researches the facts on her own & doesn't need someone to spoon feed her information, a self confident woman who can think for herself & doesn't need approval from others.
Really you don't realize how bad of a light you paint women in when you imply that the majority of us can't think for ourselves & just let ourselves be pushed around all the time. But then most of you are anti-women, so it makes sense.
ONLY IF you ignore the fact that women are assured BY those employed in and/or supporting the abortion industry that women can trust what they are told in the abortion clinic 'counseling' can you pretend that the pro-abortion deception and coercion is non-existent.
BTW pretending that something is non-existent ENABLES it to continue rather than puts a stop to it.
I agree that women should NOT trust the abortion clinic staff - that they should do as much research online first about abortion methods, abortion complications, and fetal development BEFORE they schedule an appointment!
But you choicists don't warn women about the untrustworthiness of the abortion clinics BEFORE the abortion is sold to them do you? Nope - you just make fun of them afterwards, when they find out they were LIED TO.
The abortion industry and its lobby groups DO NOT tell women to check out the facts BEFORE going to the clinic BECAUSE they want the women to trust them and to not find out anything that might cause them to lose an abortion sale.
You're not fooling anyone with your pretended concern for women.
The women who found out too late, and dare to try to warn other women, (plus former abortion industry employees) are the whistleblowers the abortion industry and choicist abortion industry defenders (like you), are the ones who care about the women. An industry or con-artist making fun of its victims is nothing unusual, and certainly is not evidence of those who support the industry caring about the victims.
You're an idiot for allowing the abortion industry to use you while hurting mothers and babies. If you're proud of allowing yourself to be used that way, you're an even bigger idiot.

reply from: ChristianLott2

wolf in sheep's clothing.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

"I agree that women should NOT trust the abortion clinic staff - that they should do as much research online first about abortion methods, abortion complications, and fetal development BEFORE they schedule an appointment!"
Oh, yeah, we KNOW that EVERYTHING on the internet is true! How about talking to a medical professional, like your family doctor? Or a gynecologist? They can't ALL be in league with the "abortion industry," especially if they are prolife.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I would like to hear from RiverMoonLady if she is pro-choice for allowing abortion to be available so women can choose either to have or not have an abortion.
I've heard some strange rumblings that RML is supposedly pro-life. Is that like a Rudy Giuliani pro-life?

reply from: CharlesD

I think she's probably more pro life than Rudy at this point, but that's just my observation from recent interaction.
I think it's important to note what direction someone is moving in, and she's been moving in our direction for some time. With some people it's more of a growth period than an instantaneous conversion.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Transformer - pro aborts in disguise ie decepticon
Like the ol McCain last minute switcheroo.
Now lets go celebrate the holidays on top of this mountain of dead babies! We're all pro life here, just shut up n smile

reply from: carolemarie

I think that outlawing abortion isn't going to happen anytime soon. I think we should help women considering abortion make a better choice and help them so they can make that choice and take care of themselved and their children.
Even if we banned abortion tomorrow, people would still have them. It is a heart issue not a legal issue.

reply from: AshMarie88

oh, I don't know, an intelligent woman who knows what's right for her & her alone, who is capable of making decisions on her own, who researches the facts on her own & doesn't need someone to spoon feed her information, a self confident woman who can think for herself & doesn't need approval from others.
Really you don't realize how bad of a light you paint women in when you imply that the majority of us can't think for ourselves & just let ourselves be pushed around all the time. But then most of you are anti-women, so it makes sense.
I know 2, possibly 3, women who have aborted and regret it. One woman being very close to me. I'm soooooooooooo anti-woman because I feel sorry for them and support them, oh yeaaaaa........
Typical.

reply from: carolemarie

Iam intelligent, made my own decisions did my own information gathering.
I still wish I had made different decisions.
I didn't expect to feel bad and was shocked at the dept of pain I felt for a procedure I chose....but I did the research thought it was the best choice so why did I feel so terrible about it??????
abortion is a crappy choice.

reply from: yoda

Goodness, that sounds exactly like what the proaborts say.
So, you're not in favor of making abortion illegal then?
Oh, btw, murder is "banned", but it still happens anyway. Should we make it legal?

reply from: ChristopherLaRock

I don't really like the idea of drunk driving. But people will do it anyway. Who am I so tell someone they can't drive their own car just because they put a substance in their body? Maybe we should legalise drunk driving and just work to limit the numbers of drunk drivers?
(sarcasm implied)

reply from: yoda

Exactly, Christopher.
Let's just repeal all criminal laws, because people are going to commit crimes anyway, right?
</sarcasm>

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is legal. So no matter what you feel about it, it remains legal and all you can do today is work to help women make different choices. That requires actually caring and working to help them...

reply from: yoda

You can also work to MAKE IT ILLEGAL.....
Do you think that slavery would have ever gone away if abolitionists had taken your fatalistic attitude?

reply from: carolemarie

I will vote for a ban next time we have one up for a vote, I guess 4 years from now?
But in the meantime I will do the practical stuff.

reply from: Rosalie

Maybe it was for you and for that I'm sorry. But it isn't for others. You cannot generalize this sort of thing, based on what happened to you personally.
I don't know any woman who regrets her abortion. Does that mean that I can make a generalization that nobody ever regrets abortion? No, I can't, because that's not true. We all make many difficult choices throughout our lives. Some of them we regret, some of them we don't. That's just how it is. That's life. It's always better if the choice is an informed one and if we are not coerced into making it.

reply from: cracrat

Again you bring that tired old line "Well ______ happens anyway, why don't we just make _____ legal?" ignoring the inherrant stupidity in such a comment. Murder, rape, theft, assault, terrorism or any number of other crimes are generally accepted by the vast majority of the population to be wrong, the illegal status of these crimes is supported by the people.
Drug prohibition laws in various countries are being relaxed because more and more people are seeing through the scaremongering propaganda employed to ban them in the first place, ie public support of these laws is declining so the law is relaxing accordingly.
When Wilberforce, Ramsey, Clark and the rest wanted to change the law regarding slavery, the first thing they had to do was change public opinion. They spent months travelling around this country telling people the truth about slavery, showing people that awful picture of the slaves packed into ships like sardines, publicising testimony from former slaves about what it was actually like. And when public opinion had changed, the law began to change accordingly.
Abortion is pretty much the same. Until public opinion shifts a really long way in your favour, the legislators will just keep offering you platitudes to get your vote but ultimately not advance your cause one iota. Mark Crutcher says again and again that you are not in this fight to change peoples' hearts and minds, but to defeat those who would support the slaughter. In this he could not be more wrong. Until you change peoples' minds, until you show them the truth without showing your anger, until you teach them without preaching to them, opinion will remain as it is and you will all just keep going round and round your increasingly well worn circles.

reply from: yoda

And yet, that was NOT the "justification" given, was it? Didn't the poster specifically say "Even if we banned abortion tomorrow, people would still have them."? So, if replying specifically to what another poster says ticks you off, then by all means have your HISSY FIT!
Yeah, we know all that. What the h*ll do you think we're trying to do here NOW?
Thank goodness we have the CHOICE of whether to agree with HIM or YOU!
I agree with Mark. And anyone who can talk for any length of time about the slaughter of millions of innocent babies without getting "angry" isn't really much of a prolifer, IMO. If that kind of immorality leaves you totally calm and unruffled, then you really don't care, you're just here for the "entertainment".

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if it is safer for the mother than a C-section or carrying it to term.
I have no idea what Rudy Giuliani thinks.

reply from: cracrat

And yet, that was NOT the "justification" given, was it? Didn't the poster specifically say "Even if we banned abortion tomorrow, people would still have them."? So, if replying specifically to what another poster says ticks you off, then by all means have your HISSY FIT!
I'm not the one shouting at other posters old man.
The suggestion is that even if abortion were outlawed tomorrow, people would still get them because they do not see it as being wrong. I dare say most people of any means would gain access by hopping over a convenient border or being put in touch with 'a family friend' because they don't see the harm in what they are doing/about to do. If murder laws were repealed tomorrow there wouldn't be a sudden upsurge in the number of people being killed because for the most part people do see the harm in such acts and so wouldn't engage in them regardless of their legal status.
The need to change peoples' opinions is paramount for two reasons. Firstly because if people don't see the harm in what they are doing, they will carry on regardless, just as most people under 50 have tried some sort of illegal drug at some stage, most people who drive have broken speed limits etc. Secondly because if opinions aren't changed, as soon as any law in enacted which does limit access is passed 'progressive' people will convince the general masses that their rights are under threat and use that swell of public outrage to get such laws repealed.
You may well get your jollies from the idea of expending your remaining years engaging in a fight made futile by the pig-headedness of your approach to it, but I would rather see some gains for my efforts and thus intend to attempt to effect the greatest change for the greatest number of people with the greatest chance of permanence.
Yeah, we know all that. What the h*ll do you think we're trying to do here NOW?
I think most of the pro-lifers come here for afternoons/evenings of self-congratulatory "look aren't we great, we're pro-life" mental masturbation. I can't comment on what goes on in private since I'm not party to that, but the public forum is little more than sparring room for the opposing teams in this debate interjected with the occassional intelligent conversation. It certainly isn't the place for networking to advance the cause and where all sides can come to debate all aspects of the issue advertised on the front page.
Thank goodness we have the CHOICE of whether to agree with HIM or YOU!
I agree with Mark. And anyone who can talk for any length of time about the slaughter of millions of innocent babies without getting "angry" isn't really much of a prolifer, IMO. If that kind of immorality leaves you totally calm and unruffled, then you really don't care, you're just here for the "entertainment".
And any person who is so incapable of controlling their emotions such that they can't even discuss the issues that bother them without resorting to shouting, name-calling, sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "lalalalalalalalalala....." and any of the other fabulously mature behaviours I have witnessed you and certain others display here should be kept as far away from any meaningful discussion that might effect some positive change as possible.
You have no idea how angry this makes me. You can not know how frustrated I get when I talk to someone about this, patiently explain why and where their thinking is flawed and why we have to do something about it and they turn round and say "You're right, but honestly I don't give a sh1t either way." Nothing about this issue leaves me calm and unruffled, but in the process of growing up I learned that it is rarely acceptable to let your anger or frustration take over and start lashing out, verbally or physically, to prove your point. The moment you do that is the moment you lose the argument. I'm appalled, but in no way surprised, that you of all people don't understand this.

reply from: nancyu

And yet, that was NOT the "justification" given, was it? Didn't the poster specifically say "Even if we banned abortion tomorrow, people would still have them."? So, if replying specifically to what another poster says ticks you off, then by all means have your HISSY FIT!
I'm not the one shouting at other posters old man.
The suggestion is that even if abortion were outlawed tomorrow, people would still get them because they do not see it as being wrong. I dare say most people of any means would gain access by hopping over a convenient border or being put in touch with 'a family friend' because they don't see the harm in what they are doing/about to do. If murder laws were repealed tomorrow there wouldn't be a sudden upsurge in the number of people being killed because for the most part people do see the harm in such acts and so wouldn't engage in them regardless of their legal status.
The need to change peoples' opinions is paramount for two reasons. Firstly because if people don't see the harm in what they are doing, they will carry on regardless, just as most people under 50 have tried some sort of illegal drug at some stage, most people who drive have broken speed limits etc. Secondly because if opinions aren't changed, as soon as any law in enacted which does limit access is passed 'progressive' people will convince the general masses that their rights are under threat and use that swell of public outrage to get such laws repealed.
You may well get your jollies from the idea of expending your remaining years engaging in a fight made futile by the pig-headedness of your approach to it, but I would rather see some gains for my efforts and thus intend to attempt to effect the greatest change for the greatest number of people with the greatest chance of permanence.
Yeah, we know all that. What the h*ll do you think we're trying to do here NOW?
I think most of the pro-lifers come here for afternoons/evenings of self-congratulatory "look aren't we great, we're pro-life" mental masturbation. I can't comment on what goes on in private since I'm not party to that, but the public forum is little more than sparring room for the opposing teams in this debate interjected with the occassional intelligent conversation. It certainly isn't the place for networking to advance the cause and where all sides can come to debate all aspects of the issue advertised on the front page.
Thank goodness we have the CHOICE of whether to agree with HIM or YOU!
I agree with Mark. And anyone who can talk for any length of time about the slaughter of millions of innocent babies without getting "angry" isn't really much of a prolifer, IMO. If that kind of immorality leaves you totally calm and unruffled, then you really don't care, you're just here for the "entertainment".
And any person who is so incapable of controlling their emotions such that they can't even discuss the issues that bother them without resorting to shouting, name-calling, sticking their fingers in their ears and saying "lalalalalalalalalala....." and any of the other fabulously mature behaviours I have witnessed you and certain others display here should be kept as far away from any meaningful discussion that might effect some positive change as possible.
You have no idea how angry this makes me. You can not know how frustrated I get when I talk to someone about this, patiently explain why and where their thinking is flawed and why we have to do something about it and they turn round and say "You're right, but honestly I don't give a sh1t either way." Nothing about this issue leaves me calm and unruffled, but in the process of growing up I learned that it is rarely acceptable to let your anger or frustration take over and start lashing out, verbally or physically, to prove your point. The moment you do that is the moment you lose the argument. I'm appalled, but in no way surprised, that you of all people don't understand this.
You're both right. There are some whom we will never win over, those are the ones who must be defeated. Then there are others whose hearts are already in the right place, but they need to learn to speak their minds. Some are afraid to talk about it, and there are others who just need their eyes opened to the truth.
What I really don't get is those who say they are against abortion, but it should be legal. No it should not. Maybe public opinion needs to change before laws against abortion can be enforced. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be.

reply from: Banned Member

Abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if it is safer for the mother than a C-section or carrying it to term.
I have no idea what Rudy Giuliani thinks.
What about in instances of rape, RML?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

She hasn't told you yet? Guess you're not important enough.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Goodness, that sounds exactly like what the proaborts say.
So, you're not in favor of making abortion illegal then?
Oh, btw, murder is "banned", but it still happens anyway. Should we make it legal?
She didn't say that. She said she doesn't think it will become illegal any time soon, so IN THE MEANTIME, she wants to help women choose LIFE. Even if abortion is legal you can still save lives.

reply from: nancyu

Goodness, that sounds exactly like what the proaborts say.
So, you're not in favor of making abortion illegal then?
Oh, btw, murder is "banned", but it still happens anyway. Should we make it legal?
She didn't say that. She said she doesn't think it will become illegal any time soon, so IN THE MEANTIME, she wants to help women choose LIFE. Even if abortion is legal you can still save lives.
There are a few things you don't know about CM, that others of us do. http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=4411&highlight_key=y

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Here's a thought, of two people:
1. One person spends 90% of their time working to make abortion illegal by law, but only 10% of their time to trying to stop abortions on the street. They never see abortion illegalized in their lifetime. In fact, they manage to piss off most of the women they meet who they think they are trying to "help". They save very few babies.
2. Another person spends 90% of their time working to help women chose life, and only 10% of their time working directly to outlaw abortion. They never see abortion illegalized in their lifetime. They save many babies in the process of wokrking with women. Women come to this person for help and in the end, become pro-life themselves.
Who do you think saved more lives and had a BETTER, more positive impact on the MOST lives? Person number 2, of course. They helped not only babies to have life, but they also had a positive impact on the lives of the women.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Thank you! That's exactly what we need to do. We have a harder fight than most people realise: We don't need to change a law, we need to change a NATION.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Go shove your slander elsewhere.

reply from: ProInformed

Outdated, anti-woman, and prejudicial attitudes, against both the innocent mother AND innocent baby, in cases of rape, are no longer going to work as a pro-abort ace card used in defense of abortion.
There is NOTHING pro-woman about thinking the worth of an innocent baby is determined primarily by whom the sperm came from, pretending that the baby is just the rapist's baby, ignoring the fact that the mother is pregnant with HER OWN baby. In cases where the male biological parent is a violent criminal, the male parentage of the baby should be relegated to lesser importance - NOT the female parentage. The outdated notion that a child's worth is determined by who their father is is long gone in most cultures, and good riddance, but the choicists are keeping that sick, anti-feminist, anti-child notion alive every time they insinuate that if the father of an unborn baby is a rapist then then baby should be killed.
Absolutely disgusting and barbarically backwards.
There is also NOTHING pro-woman, OR pro-choice about putting pressure on pregnant rape victims to kill their own babies. Every time a choicist brings up rape with the ASSumption that of course a pregnant rape victim will want to kill 'the rapist's child', such already shaemfulyl immense societal pressure increases. Shame on you.

reply from: nancyu

Go shove your slander elsewhere.
What slander?

reply from: Banned Member

Outdated, anti-woman, and prejudicial attitudes, against both the innocent mother AND innocent baby, in cases of rape, are no longer going to work as a pro-abort ace card used in defense of abortion.
There is NOTHING pro-woman about thinking the worth of an innocent baby is determined primarily by whom the sperm came from, pretending that the baby is just the rapist's baby, ignoring the fact that the mother is pregnant with HER OWN baby. In cases where the male biological parent is a violent criminal, the male parentage of the baby should be relegated to lesser importance - NOT the female parentage. The outdated notion that a child's worth is determined by who their father is is long gone in most cultures, and good riddance, but the choicists are keeping that sick, anti-feminist, anti-child notion alive every time they insinuate that if the father of an unborn baby is a rapist then then baby should be killed.
Absolutely disgusting and barbarically backwards.
There is also NOTHING pro-woman, OR pro-choice about putting pressure on pregnant rape victims to kill their own babies. Every time a choicist brings up rape with the ASSumption that of course a pregnant rape victim will want to kill 'the rapist's child', such already shaemfulyl immense societal pressure increases. Shame on you.
You are the one who makes the assumptions, honey, your post is full of them. I asked a short simple question & from that you assumed I think that all women who get raped should get an abortion. I have never even come close to saying this. I respect a woman who is strong enough to continue a pregnancy that is the result of a rape. I just don't feel that all women should be forced to be that strong.
You also assumed that I am judging a babies worth on the father. I don't....ever. But when it comes to rape, I don't think of anything but the victim. I'm not thinking at all of a baby, unless the victim is.
You assume that most women who get raped would want to birth a resulting child. I don't believe this, but this is something that neither you nor I could possibly know, so I won't pretend to like you did.Just makes you look ignorant. I can tell you about my own experience. After I was raped I waited for a period of two weeks that felt like two years. I drank a lot & did drugs & every time I thought about the possibility of a baby growing inside me from that bastard, I wanted to cut it out of me myself. When my period finally came it was one of the happiest days of my life.
It would be pretty ignorant to think that I am the only person who feels this way after a rape. Thankfully now there is emergency contraception readily available to women who need it, but ignorant people like you want to take that away too.
To force a woman to remain pregnant after a rape if she doesn't want to is like taking that rape & extending it nine months, ending it in a lot of pain, and postponing her healing for who knows how long. It's not right.

reply from: nancyu

Would you support personhood legislation?

reply from: nancyu

Maybe it was for you and for that I'm sorry. But it isn't for others. You cannot generalize this sort of thing, based on what happened to you personally.
I don't know any woman who regrets her abortion. Does that mean that I can make a generalization that nobody ever regrets abortion? No, I can't, because that's not true. We all make many difficult choices throughout our lives. Some of them we regret, some of them we don't. That's just how it is. That's life. It's always better if the choice is an informed one and if we are not coerced into making it.
Better for the woman, maybe. Doesn't make a bit of difference to the child who is killed though.

reply from: ProInformed

Maybe it was for you and for that I'm sorry. But it isn't for others. You cannot generalize this sort of thing, based on what happened to you personally.
I don't know any woman who regrets her abortion. Does that mean that I can make a generalization that nobody ever regrets abortion? No, I can't, because that's not true. We all make many difficult choices throughout our lives. Some of them we regret, some of them we don't. That's just how it is. That's life. It's always better if the choice is an informed one and if we are not coerced into making it.
First of all, I doubt seriously any woman who knows you personalyl woudl feel comfortable admitting to you that she regrets having her baby killed by abortion.
A woman would have to be totally devoid of female intuition to not pick up on your
pro-abort vibe.
Second, I agree that at the very least a choice should be an informed one minus coercion. What specifically are you doing to ensure women are allowed to make a fully informed choice minus coercion or pressure from others? And no - I do not mean what occasional lip service do you give to pretending that - but what specific actions are you taking in that regard? BTW, making fun of women AFTER they have been pressured and lied to in order to get them to abort doesn't count either.
Do you WARN women to NOT TRUST the abortion clinic 'counseling'?
Do you WARN women to learn all they can about fetal development, how abortions are actually done, and abortion complications BEFORE they schedule an appointment?
Or do you keep quiet until afterwards... just want to bully the women who complain about abortion into keepig quiet... because you're really all about protecting the abortion industry's reputation instead of protecting women?
Do you vote for politicians who support legislative efforts to grant pregnant women the patient protection right of Informed consent?
Do you EVER speak up against the way the abortion industry lies to women in order to get them to buy abortions? (Or do you just make fun of the women for trusting the lies?)
Do you contact your 'pro-choice' representatives, and 'pro-choice' group leaders to tell them to START speaking up against pro-abort pressures being put on pregnant women? Or are you content with them merely pretending to be pro-choice while their silence and apathy enables those who coerce women to abort to continue?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh my god this is my biggest fear... It would be just like earlier in the 20th century when the managed to ban alcohol... Instead of speakeasies, we'd have "aborteasies".

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Go shove your slander elsewhere.
What slander?
You are trying to show me evidence about CM that I have no desire to see. In politics, such evidence is called slander.

reply from: Rosalie

Now that describes the movement you support VERY well. Well done.

reply from: nancyu

Go shove your slander elsewhere.
What slander?
You are trying to show me evidence about CM that I have no desire to see. In politics, such evidence is called slander.
Oh, you mean this slander (said regarding personhood legislation):
And this slander:

reply from: nancyu

Birth control is YOUR ally. Not mine, and definitely not the child's.
Personhood legislation offers unborn children just that, the guarantee that they are treated equally under the law as any other person.
A ban on birth control could not result from this unless it is abortifacient. Abortifacient birth control KILLS a child.

Non abortifacient birth control could not be outlawed by personhood legislation.
Personhood legislation might result in the jailing of women who abort. The laws against murdering an unborn child would be equal to laws against murdering any child. The justice system would decide whether or not the mother is jailed. Most women won't abort if it is illegal, so there is really no reason to worry about this is there?
If you would oppose such legislation for these reasons, it shows that you value a mother's right to choose more than you value the child's right to life. In other words, you are pro choice, or pro abortion.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if it is safer for the mother than a C-section or carrying it to term.
I have no idea what Rudy Giuliani thinks.
What about in instances of rape, RML?
If a woman who has become pregnant through rape or incest and the pregnancy threatens her life (i.e., she would commit suicide, deliberately fall down the stairs, stab herself in the abdomen, etc.) I would agree that she should be allowed to abort AFTER extensive psychiatric examination and counseling. It would be preferable if she had taken the morning-after pill immediately to PREVENT pregnancy, but sometimes this cannot be a realistic expectation.
Some women can handle this situation, some simply cannot and the pregnancy would make them literally lose their sanity. I have never been in the situation and hesitate to even comment on something I know so little about.

reply from: nancyu

Abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if it is safer for the mother than a C-section or carrying it to term.
I have no idea what Rudy Giuliani thinks.
What about in instances of rape, RML?
If a woman who has become pregnant through rape or incest and the pregnancy threatens her life (i.e., she would commit suicide, deliberately fall down the stairs, stab herself in the abdomen, etc.) I would agree that she should be allowed to abort AFTER extensive psychiatric examination and counseling. It would be preferable if she had taken the morning-after pill immediately to PREVENT pregnancy, but sometimes this cannot be a realistic expectation.
Some women can handle this situation, some simply cannot and the pregnancy would make them literally lose their sanity. I have never been in the situation and hesitate to even comment on something I know so little about.
So THAT child is NOT a person, and not entitled to protection by laws against murder?
Hate to break it to ya, you're still pro abortion.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Did I say that "that child is not a person?" Didn't think so. Excuse me for having more compassion for the pregnant woman whose life is in danger than for the unborn fetus whose life is ALSO in danger.
What is wrong with saving ONE life instead of having TWO people die? Sorry, I'm not a member of the St. Giana fan club and I DON'T believe that women should die for the sake of their children.

reply from: ChristianLott2

Hey devious, that's not what you said. You said you'd give a special privilege to abort rape babies.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

"Hey devious, that's not what you said. You said you'd give a special privilege to abort rape babies."
ONLY if it would save the life of the mother. And I certainly don't call abortion a "privilege" in any case.

reply from: Nulono

oh, I don't know, an intelligent woman who knows what's right for her & her alone, who is capable of making decisions on her own, who researches the facts on her own & doesn't need someone to spoon feed her information, a self confident woman who can think for herself & doesn't need approval from others.
Really you don't realize how bad of a light you paint women in when you imply that the majority of us can't think for ourselves & just let ourselves be pushed around all the time. But then most of you are anti-women, so it makes sense.
ONLY IF you ignore the fact that women are assured BY those employed in and/or supporting the abortion industry that women can trust what they are told in the abortion clinic 'counseling' can you pretend that the pro-abortion deception and coercion is non-existent.
BTW pretending that something is non-existent ENABLES it to continue rather than puts a stop to it.
I agree that women should NOT trust the abortion clinic staff - that they should do as much research online first about abortion methods, abortion complications, and fetal development BEFORE they schedule an appointment!
But you choicists don't warn women about the untrustworthiness of the abortion clinics BEFORE the abortion is sold to them do you? Nope - you just make fun of them afterwards, when they find out they were LIED TO.
The abortion industry and its lobby groups DO NOT tell women to check out the facts BEFORE going to the clinic BECAUSE they want the women to trust them and to not find out anything that might cause them to lose an abortion sale.
You're not fooling anyone with your pretended concern for women.
The women who found out too late, and dare to try to warn other women, (plus former abortion industry employees) are the whistleblowers the abortion industry and choicist abortion industry defenders (like you), are the ones who care about the women. An industry or con-artist making fun of its victims is nothing unusual, and certainly is not evidence of those who support the industry caring about the victims.
You're an idiot for allowing the abortion industry to use you while hurting mothers and babies. If you're proud of allowing yourself to be used that way, you're an even bigger idiot.
Agreed. If they were told the truth (not conned), they would have to be murderous to have an abortion.
We can't really help runaway embryos. The abolitionists had the Underground Railroad. The only thing they did that we can do is push for a change in the law. I hope it doesn't take a war.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Nancy, why did you bother bringing any of that information up? I don't see how it relates to this topic at all...

reply from: Timeofgrace

Weather one likes to admit it or not abortion is murder.
ALL murder is BY PRO Choise .
Some may not understand that abortion is murder .
but that does not change the fact that it is.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I do not think abortion is murder. You stating it "is" does not make it a fact. I personally view abortion as manslaughter.
Also, not all murderers in the entire world are pro-choice, that's just nonsense.

reply from: carolemarie

Would you support personhood legislation?
It depends on the bill and how it is written. I am not for banning birth control and jailing women.

reply from: ChristopherLaRock

But you left something out.
When we get rid of the laws, we should create a safe enviroment so people can break the law without risking their own safety. Oh, but then we charge them money to use those facilities.

reply from: carolemarie

I could live with rape and incest and life of mother exceptions. That would mean the other 90% would end. But if your life is in danger, abortion would be logical. Both the woman and the babies life are important, not just the babies.
I think that Saint Giana cult is a sick and warped idea of what being prolife is. Dying to bring a child into the world isn't noble.
Women should protect their lives. Passive suicide is still suicide.

reply from: carolemarie

Maybe it was for you and for that I'm sorry. But it isn't for others. You cannot generalize this sort of thing, based on what happened to you personally.
I don't know any woman who regrets her abortion. Does that mean that I can make a generalization that nobody ever regrets abortion? No, I can't, because that's not true. We all make many difficult choices throughout our lives. Some of them we regret, some of them we don't. That's just how it is. That's life. It's always better if the choice is an informed one and if we are not coerced into making it.
I know thousands who do regret their abortions. Most women keep their feelings (conflicted generally) to themselves, until they can't bear it. They don't tell pro-choicers because they while you mean well, always try to smooth it over with talk about choices in life. This choice is different. It ends the life of a child, your child and that is tough to deal with. Pro-choicers won't deal with that fact at all and it is dishonest. Women enter post abortion healing classes in the thousands each year, because that simple choice has consequences.
And my abortions just put a teenager back into the hands of her pimp. Where were the grownups to protect me? Instead of helping a child out of the hands of her exploiters, abortion just allowed them to continue to use me.

reply from: nancyu

I don't think a mother must sacrifice her life to save her child. But saying, "I'm going to kill myself if you don't let me kill my child", doesn't qualify.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I don't think a mother must sacrifice her life to save her child. But saying, "I'm going to kill myself if you don't let me kill my child", doesn't qualify.
I SAID that she should undergo psychiatric evaluation and counseling FIRST. Just threatening suicide is not enough. A competent mental health professional can judge her danger to herself. But of course, I don't believe that locking a woman up in a psych ward until she delivers would be helpful.
Would a serious suicide attempt convince you that the woman's life is in danger? What if that attempt kills the fetus? What would THAT accomplish?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Maybe it was for you and for that I'm sorry. But it isn't for others. You cannot generalize this sort of thing, based on what happened to you personally.
I don't know any woman who regrets her abortion. Does that mean that I can make a generalization that nobody ever regrets abortion? No, I can't, because that's not true. We all make many difficult choices throughout our lives. Some of them we regret, some of them we don't. That's just how it is. That's life. It's always better if the choice is an informed one and if we are not coerced into making it.
I know thousands who do regret their abortions. Most women keep their feelings (conflicted generally) to themselves, until they can't bear it. They don't tell pro-choicers because they while you mean well, always try to smooth it over with talk about choices in life. This choice is different. It ends the life of a child, your child and that is tough to deal with. Pro-choicers won't deal with that fact at all and it is dishonest. Women enter post abortion healing classes in the thousands each year, because that simple choice has consequences.
And my abortions just put a teenager back into the hands of her pimp. Where were the grownups to protect me? Instead of helping a child out of the hands of her exploiters, abortion just allowed them to continue to use me.
My mother has not shared her abortion experience with anyone I know of, not even my dad. She was forced to abort several years before they met. Before she told me, only she and my grandmother knew. THAT is how secretive some of these women can be... Her feelings are definitely conflicted. She says she regrets doing it, but if she were back in that same situation again, she'd still make the same choice, because of what was going on. She truly felt she had no other options.

reply from: Banned Member

Is that how it is Syrenity, just let some half-wit, half trained would be doctor, scrub the little critter out with the same care that a janitor would scrub out a toilet or a plugged sink drain? Ever seen an abortion Syrenity? I am sick and tired beyond words of ignorance like yours.

reply from: Rosalie

Considering that you compare abortion to a janitor scrubbing out a toilet, it's clearly you who knows nothing about abortion, women's reproductive system or women in general. You are a joke.

reply from: Rosalie

Hi Carol,
First of all, I would like to ask you to read this post with an open mind. Please do not take it as a post from your opponent, I would rather if you could read this as a post from a fellow woman and mother who is trying to explain her stance to you.
Why do you have such problems with the FACT that there are many women (and it is actually the majority) who do not regret having an abortion? I absolutely do NOT deny that there are those who regret it. I am sorry that they do and I do hope that they get the help they deserve. But it is definitely not the majority. You need to understand that as much as you believe in YOUR case, other women believe in OUR cause just as strongly as you. We are neither stupid nor in denial. Of course there are women who regret their abortions. There are also women who regret having their children. And to me that will forever remain incomparably worse then regretting an abortion. To think that there are women who actually regret having their kids, who resent them and are taking care of them out of obligation gives me the chills of the worst kind.
I am surprised about your misconception about pro-choicers. I would expect that from other people here because there are many who enjoy painting us as demons and bad people with the worst intentions. I do not consider you to be one of these people so the only explanation I can come up with is your experiences from the past. Maybe some pro-choicers treated you badly or did not help you when you needed it and you apply that experience on all the others. But it is just not so.
Pro-choicers believe that planning a family is a good thing. But as I am sure you know, our plans often go awry because that is just what life is. That is what happens. Whether it is planned or not, what we strongly support is wanted, loved, healthy babies that are taken good care of and healthy, happy women who stay in charge of their lives and reproductive functions. Why is it a bad thing to some I do not know.
CHOICE means that we do not condemn or force anyone to make a choice we personally would make or support. And you know that in the MAJORITY of cases, this is not something you can say about pro-lifers. Pro-life is forceful, condemning, judgmental and harmful to women. Which is why and everyone I know would never come to a pro-lifer if things went badly. Because that is that they tend to do - force, condemn, judge. Nastiness and abrasiveness is their tool and they use it frequently.
Pro-choicers care about the woman before, during and after. We are not here to tell her what to do, to force her to do what we think is the best thing. We are here to help her with any decision she might make and eventually help her deal with the aftermath.
This is who we are. Sure there are exceptions, sure there are extremists. They are everywhere and we cannot do much about them, just like you cannot do much about the pro-lifers who bomb the clinics or use violence to force women to carry to term.
I wrote all of this in hopes that you will reconsider your opinion of pro-choicers. I have just HONESTLY told you what we are, what we do, how we think. Please do not be just another person who would rather wallow in their misconception (for whatever reason) than face the truth.
.Rosalie

reply from: yoda

Now you're claiming that rape threatens the life of the mother? How?

reply from: yoda

"Runaway embryos"? Who said anything like that?
Have you ever heard of criminal laws? I hope it doesn't take a war too, but if it does, I'll be on the side of the babies.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, we know the technical distinction, but you're just nit-picking.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, but what if they refuse to pay? Don't we have to make it safe for them to break that law too?

reply from: yoda

That's a rather cruel thing to say. If a woman (or a man) sacrificed their life to save a born child, you'd declare them heroes, right?

reply from: carolemarie

I object to the value being place totally on the child, and the woman considered expendable. And I find it objectional that a Christian religion would be promoting this as a desireable thing...
It shows that the value placed on women in some religous circles is very small and that their lives are totally unimportant to them. And go figure that a man would defend that idea....
I am glad that God doesn't agree!

reply from: ChristianLott2

And this is the lie the pro aborts keep telling about pro lifers - it's all about the fetus and all the women in the world could die for all we care.
Sick and devious outright lies told by sick and twisted murderers. These kind of phony arguments (like that bs thread about starvation in the US) just waste time. That was the intended purpose I'm sure.
Makes me think scopia and carole are on the same side of the pro abort fence - just wasting our time with bs.
No thanks.

reply from: Gerald

The fanatical pro-lifers cannot believe what you have pointed out. That would take their motivation away.
It is better if they believe that their enemy is evil in every way. There can't possibly be any decent morals in anyone that would support pro-choice. Pro-choicers can't possibly want anything but to increase abortions. They are lying when they say they want to reduce abortions. They are just plain bad, bad, bad all the way thru. So we must continue fighting, arguing and pushing for meaningless laws to punish these evildoers. Forget other more effective more realistic approaches and keep up the fight. It makes me feel good. It makes me a good person. I can say I fight for babies. All the while knowing that the fight will never end. But very few really want an end. Why end something that brings me so much satisfaction and so much attention?
To top all of that off, you could not possibly be HONEST, since you are pro-choice. You must evil in every way. And so goes the never ending abortion war. Check back in 10-20 years. Nothing will have changed, but the war will continue to rage on.

reply from: Rosalie

You are absolutely right. I have been pro-choice for MORE than a decade. The attitude you and I have pointed out did not die out. I wish it had because I can honestly say that in my personal experience, there ARE pro-lifers who are not like that, who choose a completely different route and who team up with us pro-choicers in the fight to lessen the numbers of
That way everybody wins. Fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means FEWER women being put in a situation in which they have to make a tough choice and as I'm sure you're aware, fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means fewer abortions. But it takes love, acceptance of beliefs of others and good intentions to achieve that. Not preaching about how all of us are godless, pro-death whores etc.
You are absolutely right. The fight will go on. If they had actually wanted there to be fewer unwanted pregnancies (and thus fewer abortions), they would give a thought to the things that I pointed out in my previous post and they'd stop being so damn abrassive and horrible towards other people and would actually start doing something that could make a difference. Because calling people names, eexpressing hatred towards them and their beliefs and twisting their words because they just cannot believe in the good intentions of pro-choicers is not helping anyone, least of all fetuses.
I don't think I will be checking back again in another 10 years. It's a too sad a picture already.

reply from: carolemarie

You are absolutely right. I have been pro-choice for MORE than a decade. The attitude you and I have pointed out did not die out. I wish it had because I can honestly say that in my personal experience, there ARE pro-lifers who are not like that, who choose a completely different route and who team up with us pro-choicers in the fight to lessen the numbers of
That way everybody wins. Fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means FEWER women being put in a situation in which they have to make a tough choice and as I'm sure you're aware, fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means fewer abortions. But it takes love, acceptance of beliefs of others and good intentions to achieve that. Not preaching about how all of us are godless, pro-death whores etc.
You are absolutely right. The fight will go on. If they had actually wanted there to be fewer unwanted pregnancies (and thus fewer abortions), they would give a thought to the things that I pointed out in my previous post and they'd stop being so damn abrassive and horrible towards other people and would actually start doing something that could make a difference. Because calling people names, eexpressing hatred towards them and their beliefs and twisting their words because they just cannot believe in the good intentions of pro-choicers is not helping anyone, least of all fetuses.
I don't think I will be checking back again in another 10 years. It's a too sad a picture already.
I think that you have a misconception of prolifers. Most people I know care about the woman as much as the baby. Both are important and both lifes matter. And we should do everything in our power to enable women to take care of their children and not feel like they have no choice but to get an abortion.
Nobody thinks that prochoice people are insincere in their beliefs, and I don't think pro-lifers should hate them, or treat them dis-respectfully or attribute evil too them.
I find that prochoice people tend to care about the woman more then the baby, and the pro- fetus people care more about the baby than the woman.
Prolifer' care about both equally.

reply from: Rosalie

You are absolutely right. I have been pro-choice for MORE than a decade. The attitude you and I have pointed out did not die out. I wish it had because I can honestly say that in my personal experience, there ARE pro-lifers who are not like that, who choose a completely different route and who team up with us pro-choicers in the fight to lessen the numbers of
That way everybody wins. Fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means FEWER women being put in a situation in which they have to make a tough choice and as I'm sure you're aware, fewer UNWANTED pregnancies means fewer abortions. But it takes love, acceptance of beliefs of others and good intentions to achieve that. Not preaching about how all of us are godless, pro-death whores etc.
You are absolutely right. The fight will go on. If they had actually wanted there to be fewer unwanted pregnancies (and thus fewer abortions), they would give a thought to the things that I pointed out in my previous post and they'd stop being so damn abrassive and horrible towards other people and would actually start doing something that could make a difference. Because calling people names, eexpressing hatred towards them and their beliefs and twisting their words because they just cannot believe in the good intentions of pro-choicers is not helping anyone, least of all fetuses.
I don't think I will be checking back again in another 10 years. It's a too sad a picture already.
I think that you have a misconception of prolifers. Most people I know care about the woman as much as the baby. Both are important and both lifes matter. And we should do everything in our power to enable women to take care of their children and not feel like they have no choice but to get an abortion.
Nobody thinks that prochoice people are insincere in their beliefs, and I don't think pro-lifers should hate them, or treat them dis-respectfully or attribute evil too them.
I find that prochoice people tend to care about the woman more then the baby, and the pro- fetus people care more about the baby than the woman.
Prolifer' care about both equally.
Hi Carol,
did you read my previous post to you? I have been trying to explain all of that to you. Either you did not read it or you're not listening. Which is it?
I really thought YOU of all people could actually listen without being prejudiced in advance.
I do not have a skewed view of pro-lifers. I call them as I see them. Especially the "pro-lifers" here at this forum.
There are few people in my life that consider themselves pro-life. Let me sum up for you what they don't and don't do.
They DON'T berate, intimidate, insult or judge women who have or had abortion.
They DON'T berate, intimidate, insult or judge pro-choicers.
They DO support all kinds of birth control, they work on obtaining means to
They DON'T lie to women or provide them with false information.
They DO care about quality of life and try to help women to improve their and their babies' quality of life.
They DO want to lessen the number of unwanted pregnancies and therefore by extension lessen the number of abortions.
They DO co-operate with pro-choicers because they recognize that lessening the number of unwanted pregnancies, caring for women, improving their quality of life and reproductive care and offering them a helping hand in need is a good thing.
I don't agree with their opinion on this issue and they don't agree with mine. But we work together. We save women and we save babies. We help them in a tough situation, we don't judge them, we're there for them. There are too little of them, most of us who do this are pro-choicers, but there are some. And I respect them greatly because they think for themselves, they did not buy into the propaganda and they have made SUCH difference - I wish you could see it with your own eyes because if you care about any of the things I listed here, you'd be very touched.
Now look around yourself, look at this very forum and tell me how many people here fit this description.
I do not belive that 99% of pro-lifers that post on this forum care about women, let alone as much as they care about fetuses.
There are good and bad pro-lifers, just like there are good and bad people. The thing is that the sample that's posting on this board is frightening, for the most part.

reply from: carolemarie

Roslie:
I don't think I am prejudiced against prochoicers. I don't attribute evil to them, or believe that they are bad people. I have no problem working with them.
I agree that this board has some hateful and vengeful prolifer on it. But I would charactorize them as profetus, not prolife. I see a difference in the two terms.

reply from: Rosalie

I feel like I'm not getting my point across.
I think you are one of the few people here who are really open to other people and their ideas and while I don't agree with your view on abortion, it's always heart-warming to see you list the things you support as a pro-lifer because so much of what you do helps prevent unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions. And that SHOULD BE everyone's goal.
My point was, if you look around yourself ... how many of these people are like you? How many of them are open-minded, how many of them are willing to admit that pro-choicers are not instrinsically evil sluts and baby haters whose goal is to kill every single fetus on earth and bathe in their blood?
I can't stress enough how discouraging and often disgusting it is to see so many people with such attitude ANYWHERE, but especially in a place that claims to be a "pro-life" forum.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes, that is distressing, I am sure it breaks God's heart....it is rather amazing that this board attracts so many. But they can change if they hear the truth, so there is still hope
They are just stuck in rhetoric, and unable to move beyond that. There are some on both sides of the issue stuck there. If we want to see the need for abortion to end, we need to look beyond labels and "movements" and see the real people who need help. And then help them.
You should feel sad for them

reply from: yoda

I do too, but the ONLY time I ever hear that attitude is when either you or a proabort is attacking prolifers in general. I've never heard any prolifers say anything that would indicate that they had that attitude. I think you simply made it up out of thin air, just so you could attack other prolifers.

reply from: yoda

You aren't the enemy of prolifers. You are the enemy of the babies that you are killing, and helping others to kill. We are just the inept allies of the babies.

reply from: yoda

I do. Well, they do have sincere beliefs, I'm sure, but those are not the ones they talk about. The ones they talk about are the excuses they make for their real ones, and they don't really believe their excuses..... like "It's not a baby", or "It's not alive", or "It's not (fill in the blank)." No, they don't believe those things even when they are saying them.
Of course they do, since they don't care about the baby AT ALL.
Wrong. No "pro-fetus" person, as you call them, has ever advocated killing women who are having abortions. We simply advocate not killing the baby.
To "care more about the baby" would mean that we wanted the woman to be killed instead of the baby. Whom have you ever heard say that?

reply from: yoda

I agree with that 100%. The only prejudice I've ever seen you show is against other prolifers.

reply from: faithman

Because you are a baby killer who does not pass up a chance to defend baby killers. You don't care how many movements you have to undermine, and how many scriptures and doctrines you have to pervert to git the job done. Only a delusional killer of 3 would call the sugar coated pro-death post of yours anything close to pro-life. You are so busy protecting the "feelings" of your fellow baby killers, and posting their excuses for murdering womb children, that you have very little time to actually deffend the true victim in this mess. You are, and defend, the victimizers of the "fetus". Now aint it just peculiar that you use the pro-death euphamism of "Fetus" rather than womb child, pre-born, or un-born child? You are the hater, and vengful of anyone who actually stands up for the child. But that is understandable comming from a self justied killer of three.

reply from: BossMomma

I agree with that 100%. The only prejudice I've ever seen you show is against other prolifers.
Yeah, you bash members of both sides. Wouldn't that make you an equal opportunity offender?

reply from: carolemarie

Sorry Yoda,
I am prolife and I don't bash anyone. I disagree with somethings that are posted here by prolifers and by the prochoicers. I don't call people names.
I don't like the attitude of all prochoice people are evil. They are not, and it shuts down dialog to keep talking like that. People change their minds, and usually trading insults isn't the way it happens...

reply from: BossMomma

Pro-choicers are no more good or evil than anyone else, there are good and bad on both sides.

reply from: ChristianLott2

There's a good side to slaughtering 3,500 babies a day??

reply from: ChristianLott2

Of course they do, since they don't care about the baby AT ALL.
Funny she could 'miss' such a thing..

reply from: BossMomma

There's a good side to slaughtering 3,500 babies a day??
No twit, leave it to you to utterly miss straight up logic. I said there are good and bad on both sides. Pro-lifer who advocates for babies=good, pro-lifer who blows away an abortion provider=bad. Pro-choicer who aborts unborn babies=bad, pro-choicer who helps pregnant women keep their babies (like I did even when I was pro-choice)=good.

reply from: ChristianLott2

What kind of logic is that? You're not pro choice if you're advocating the child's life over the woman's whim.

reply from: cracrat

Never a truer word spoken.

reply from: yoda

Absolutely, and proud of it.

reply from: yoda

And yet you "bash" them, just the same.
That depends on how you define "evil", doesn't it?
But really, it's pretty much beside the point. The point being that the act of electively killing an unborn baby IS evil, and the act of supporting that killing IS evil. Or do you disagree with that also?

reply from: yoda

Sure, it makes them feel "powerful".........

reply from: yoda

Of course they do, since they don't care about the baby AT ALL.
Funny she could 'miss' such a thing..
I kinda thought that ought to be at the top of the list, didn't you?

reply from: yoda

Never a truer word spoken.
And you are including yourself? Or do you self identify as pro-choice now?


2017 ~ LifeDiscussions.org ~ Discussions on Life, Abortion, and the Surrounding Politics