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I found out I am pregnant....I might have to get an abortion

by: dazedandconfused

Can someone give some advice on how to obtain one safely? I'm also giving the people here a chance to convince me it is a bad idea to abort. I'm in school, the father will not support me, and I refuse to take charity of any sort.

reply from: ProudDadX2

I don't really understand why you would turn down charity. People are willing to help. And, that's what life is all about, in the end.
Here is a good website about adoption. There are millions of couples who legitimately cannot have children for medical reasons. This website give information on how you can get help, and in turn, help a couple have a child.
http://courageouschoice.com/?GCID=GOOG&gclid=CLK-1OHK7JYCFRJexwodSgr8sA

One of my law school classmates does the legal work for the Gladney Agency, an adoption agency. He was adopted as well as his sister, and he has made it a special part of his legal practice. The Gladney Agency can help you as well:
http://www.adoptionsbygladney.com/html/pregnant/index.php

reply from: nancyu

You want some advice on how you can kill your child safely? Safe for you or for your baby? It is neither. If you are looking at obtaining one that is safe for the abortionist, then I would suggest your local Planned Parenthood.
And Yes, it is a bad idea.

reply from: BossMomma

If you wont take help I suggest you get a job and take the baby daddy to court for child support when baby is born.

reply from: CharlesD

She's in school, so the job thing might be difficult. I would second what the first response was. There are plenty of couples out there who can't conceive and would love a new baby. I would follow up with some of those agencies that were posted there and go from there.
I'm not going to give you all of the other arguments that we have been throwing around here ad nauseum. I will just say that what is growing there is a precious new human life that is deserving of a chance to live. There are families out there who would love to give him/her a loving home. Abortion isn't just a bad idea, it's really unnecessary.

reply from: churchmouse

This statement takes the cake.
Why should any father have to pay? You pro-aborts believe the fetus inside the woman is a part of her....and for that reason its her right to kill it, because its her body. The man has no say whatsoever. So now you say the courts should force him to pay for something THAT IS NOT HIS ????????????????? Its hers, right?
Why should any father be taken to court?
You guys kick him to the curb and then want to get money out of him.
Your the sick ones.

reply from: ProInformed

Do internet searches on:
abortion methods
abortion complications
women killed by abortion
real choice
Good luck trying to find a 'safe' abortion...
Also what do you mean by "I might have to get an abortion?"
Doesn't exactly sound pro-'choice' does it?
Go to the feminists for life website and check out what they have to say about real feminism being women refusing to 'choose' abortion.
Also, are you aware of the fact that if you go ahead with an abortion when you are ambivalent you will be evenmore likely to end up suffering post-abortion syndrome? And if you do have any regrets and grief after killing your baby, the pro-aborts will make fun of you and call you a liar and nasty names just to try to keep you quiet?
If you have an abortion without learning all you can first about how big and developed your baby is, then you find out too late after your baby has been killed, the pro-aborts will have ZERO sympathy for you. Oh and do NOT trust a clinic 'counselor' to tell you the truth! The abortion industry has consistently fought all efforts to grant pregnant women the right to be told the truth. They routinely lie to women and purposely leave out any info that might cause them to lose an abortion sale.
Do internet searches on fetal development and abortion methods before you decide anything. It may seem easier for you now to just have an abortion without taking the time to find out what the abortion really will do to your baby (and to your body), but that won't magically protect you from complications and it is VERY unlikely that you will somehow manage to avoid learning the truth for the rest of your entire life! Ignorance of the facts will NOT protect you! NOT knowing the risks involved won't magically make you less likely to suffer a complication AND might cause you to not recognize a possibly life-threatening after-affect in time! The abortion industry staff will 'protect' you fomr learning the truth long enough to get you to go along with the abortion, but they're not going to be there to 'protect' you for the rest of your life when you find out about fetal development in a prenatal class for a future pregnancy, or when you take biology in college, or when you have a miscarriage and SEE what the so-called 'blob of tisssue' REALLY looks like!
Pro-aborts and abortion industry salespersons will tell you they are 'pro-choice' and 'pro-woman', but if you look at how they treat the women who suffer abortion complications and post-abort emotional trauma, it's easy to see they are just lying to try to get you to buy an abortion - afterwards they won't even bother to pretend to care about you or your dead baby.
Talk to LOTS of people and ask them what they know about abortion, in addition to doing your own online searches for info, before doing anything. Be aware that girls who have recently aborted may still be in a state of denial during which they will try to talk other girls into having abortions too. It sometimes takes years, decades even, for women to face the truth of what they've done. Unfortunately by then they may have convinced many other females to have abortions too. Talk to some older women, not just girls your age.
Do NOT allow anybody to talk you into or coerce you into aborting.
Inform them that is NOT 'pro-choice'.
Also you should tell your parents that you are pregnant.
If you go through with aborting your baby and have complications afterwards, they might not be able to get you emergency medical care in time if they don't even know you had an abortion!

reply from: ProInformed

http://www.lifedynamics.com/Abortion_Information/Pro-life_Product/Enlarge.cfml?ID=7
If you contact your local crisis pregnancy center they might have (or should be able to get) a copy of the patient rights form for you.
It is VERY important for you to realize that many abortionists are doctors who are under investigation or have even lost their medical license because of malpractice.
They end up doing abortions because so few pregnnat females even know they have the right to ask the name of the abortionist who will be doing surgery on them. Even abortionists who have injured or killed women are still doing abortions on unsuspecting women!
Find out the name of the name of the abortionist and abortion clinic you were thinking of going to and do a search for them at the realchoice website before you trust them with your health and life!

reply from: BossMomma

I'm pro-life you twit, the baby is not just hers but his and if he puts his best sperm forward to create a child he should damn well put his best foot forward to support the kid once born.

reply from: CharlesD

If you're going to play, you're going to pay? Sure, sounds good to me.

reply from: BossMomma

Damn right, why should it all be dumped on the woman when behind EVERY abortion was a man's carelessly dumped sperm. So many tell a woman she should have kept her legs closed but why doesn't anyone tell the man to keep his penis in his pants?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

And ya better start naming names to the authorities, dude.

reply from: carolemarie

I would suggest that you consider visiting a pregnancy help center for advise and information, both of which is free , I believe that you should have all the facts to make a good decision.
Life can be tough and we have to make decisions, but don't make any decision without checking out all the information first.
And the charity thing, I don't think it is charity to offer no-strings help. It is rather like a scholarship or a grant for school, except it is a pregnancy grant.
Your situtation is unique, and the counselors will be glad to explore all your options with you.
I will be happy to find a center that is helpful nearby you if you pm me and let me know your location.
Blessings!
Carolemarie

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The father must support his baby. Go to the judicial system and the judge will determine the child support that must be provided.
If you are a minor and the father is not he is guilty of statutory rape and should be prosecuted. Some states have laws that allow convicts to work during the day to pay their obligations; such as his obligation to his son or daughter.

reply from: dazedandconfused

Well, I had an abortion today at Plan Parenthood. It didn't hurt or take up hardly any time at all.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I'm pretty sure you are a troll with a fictional tale.
However, I'm sure an abortion would most definitely hurt a baby and it would take up all of that person's remaining time.
It sounds like you are a low-lifer concentrating only on how this affects you, not your baby.
You are a selfish worthless person. In life, we are here to take care of others. You certainly did not honor your responsibility to mother your child. You are a foul abomination.
There is no inheritance waiting for you; for you are useless. You do not help, nurture and support your brothers and sisters.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yeah, I had a nice post planned, but that response screams "troll"...
Still, you can listen if you come here to read the replies. Troll or not, abortion or not, doesn't mean you can't change your mind:
Which is worse: taking charity so someone doesn't have to die, or letting that person die because you were too proud to accept money in a time of need?

It's no shame to take a helping hand when you have fallen. My own family used WIC when I was a baby so I could eat. That's what society is there for. You only need the help during the pregnancy and then you can give the child up for adoption; then you won't have to "burden" society any more than you absolutely need to. But it's not a burden; I happily pay taxes to help mothers get through pregnancy healthy and birth happy babies.
You are a mother now; the moment the baby implanted you were a mother. How you choose to parent is up to you. You can care for this child and its stay with you; a mere nine months out of a lifetime that often lasts for 80 years!
Abortion is a permanent solution for a temporary condition, as someone on here is fond of saying, and I agree. You KNOW pregnancy WILL end; you know even when it will end to within a month, in normal cases. And when pregnancy ends, life continues for a new person. Life continues for you, too. And no one died. That's the best part.

reply from: Derrickvoncowan

Listed to the guy on this page.
His name is Zo.
His is the video titled "Abortion"
Just click this link and scroll down a little bit and you'll see it.
http://www.bungalow3.net/videos.cfm
If you get an abortion, you'll have the rest of your life to wonder about what could have been.
If you don't, you'll know. There have been a great number of women regret getting abortions, but you never really hear of any women that put their children up for adoption that wish they could go back & abort them instead.

reply from: ProInformed

Well you certainly chose a fitting posting name - dazed and confused.
(If you're not just another troll) and you relaly did have an abortion, you did so in a dazed and confused state, a state you will now have to try to remain in for the rest of your life to 'protect' yourself from learning the truth. Good luck with that 'dazed and confused'...

reply from: JRH

This is clearly a troll you noobs.

reply from: Derrickvoncowan

I'm pretty sure this person was using sarcasm to imply that if you interpret these issues from an abortionist's point of view that it hurts women & puts all the weight on them unless you use a double standard.

reply from: sjfam

Hey,
Prouddad is right. If you are in trouble, lots of folks are willing and able to help you. Try and see if there is a maternity home or a Project Gabriel in your area.
Everytime an individual life is created, the effort to raise and preserve that life must be put forth. It is only fair and just.
Sometimes, for understandable reasons, the mother is unable to take care of the child. The child then deserves to be put by the mother in a situation where he will be taken care of.
Every life is unique, irreducable, and irreplacable and it would be a real shame if a life were to be lost because the person was not given the chance to be raised and loved by a capable person.
- sjfam

reply from: joe

LOL, is this "pro-choice"?

reply from: 4given

Thanks for representing "your side". I knew some pro-aborts are as violent and morally repugnant as you seem to be. Stop blaming the pro-life community for your abortion. You have obvious issues away from your desire to kill your offspring as well as your desires to make sure other women can join you in doing so. Not only was your attack unjustified, but equally as appalling. You need help and healing.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Still, she can listen if she comes here to read the replies. Troll or not, abortion or not, doesn't mean she can't change her mind.

reply from: 4given

LOL, is this "pro-choice"?
Isn't it- aren't they cute?

reply from: 4given

True and hopefully "she" will swap her default icon out as well.

reply from: Draiocht

Devil's daughter, you can whore yourself out to males as you like, but the rest of us aren't mindless slaves. You are pure evil, selling your body for the reproduction of male ego. Sacrificing yourself as if you aren't a person and demanding that other women dehumanize the same. Whore, slut, slave, that is what you are.

reply from: scopia19822

"Abortion is a permanent solution for a temporary condition, as someone on here is fond of saying, and I agree"
That would be me liberal, actually it is "abortion is a permanent solution to a temporary problem'. But you were close enough. I actually adapted that from my husbands stance on suicide. He says that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. If you think about it abortion and suicide are just that.

reply from: 4given

LORD HAVE MERCY! KYRIE. CHRISTE. Father God I come before You asking for Your hand of healing to be upon this woman Lord. I ask You to take the chains of evil that have bound her. Give her hope and healing. I proclaim Your healing in Christ's Holy Name Lord. I plead the blood of my innocent Savior over her life Lord. Heal her. Restore her. Use her Lord. Have mercy on us- a Nation that has thrown away all that You value- respect for our sexuality, respect for our woman. Appreciation for the children You give us Lord. Respect for the men you created to be leaders in the home. Lord restore us, revive us- use us. In Your Holy and Precious Name and Blood I Praise YOU JESUS, Amen!

reply from: ProudDadX2

Dude, you must be kidding.
The father is legally responsible for the needs of the child, whether or not he wants to be. The best thing she could do, if she doesn't give the baby up for adoption and keeps it, is to makes sure the father is paying.
Also, to the guy talking about "whoring"...you've got to be kidding as well. People make choices that temporarily seem to be a problem. But, I ask you, when the women caught in the act of adultry was brought before Christ, did he accuse her of being a whore and heap shame upon her?
No. Of course, the answer is no. And, if you are a person who proclaims Christ, you must have compassion on people in temporary need.
The gal here is in temporary need. Pregnancy is scary even for married folks who plan it. Believe me. My wife and I have two...the last one born last December. You go through a lot of soul-searching (and financial-searching) when it happens. It is a great gift from God, but also a great responsibility that gives your senses a jolt of sober analysis.
This girl needs helpful suggestions, not to be kicked when she feels down. But, if you are without sin, by all means, go ahead and throw your stones:
John 8: 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, 4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. 7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.

reply from: CharlesD

This site just brings out the best in everybody. I feel all warm and fuzzy all over.

reply from: JRH

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.
But you do agree people should have the right to kill themselves if they want right? I mean, if I am ever suffering from some illnesses I think a quick painless death might not seem so bad.

reply from: churchmouse

Well I think that way......but based on societies laws, the father should not be held liable for anything.
LIke Godslaw said.........you are a troll with a fictional tale. No woman that got an abortion would get on here the same day.
LOL
Your are obviously a joke.
Our society says that the unborn BELONGS TO THE WOMAN. The man is not an issue. He has no say to whether or not he wants the child or does not want the child. His sperm is a gift and that is it. The woman holds the cards.
This is not the way I think it should be. This is society today.
With the exception of rape.......if a woman has sex, she is responsible. It is her body and SHE IS THE ONE THAT TAKES THE CHANCE OF GETTING PREGNANT.
You obviously cant think logically.

reply from: Draiocht

You're a nasty, evil ***** and your advocacy for male whoring and abuse to women is much worse than my calling you on it. You certainly don't need to be perpetuating your twisted genetics, with your "disposable people" attitude towards women.

reply from: BossMomma

You're just as bad with your attitude towards men.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.
But you do agree people should have the right to kill themselves if they want right? I mean, if I am ever suffering from some illnesses I think a quick painless death might not seem so bad.
No. I am against euthanasia. I am quite horrified that bill got passed.
I am not against removing someone from life support systems if there is no hope of recovery. I am against purposely injecting them with something to kill them. Let nature take them as it will; don't force the issue.

reply from: JRH

Why should you have the right to force me to live? You don't own me.
That is their business. NOT yours.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Well I think that way......but based on societies laws, the father should not be held liable for anything.
LIke Godslaw said.........you are a troll with a fictional tale. No woman that got an abortion would get on here the same day.
LOL
Your are obviously a joke.
Our society says that the unborn BELONGS TO THE WOMAN. The man is not an issue. He has no say to whether or not he wants the child or does not want the child. His sperm is a gift and that is it. The woman holds the cards.
This is not the way I think it should be. This is society today.
With the exception of rape.......if a woman has sex, she is responsible. It is her body and SHE IS THE ONE THAT TAKES THE CHANCE OF GETTING PREGNANT.
You obviously cant think logically.
Why not, Churchmouse? Just curious.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.
But you do agree people should have the right to kill themselves if they want right? I mean, if I am ever suffering from some illnesses I think a quick painless death might not seem so bad.
This is SUCH a thorny topic. If I had a terminal illness and it got to the point that I was suffering so badly that NO pain medication worked, I would ask my doctor for strong sleeping pills - and take them all at once. I say this ONLY because I had to watch my father suffer horribly and die many years ago, and because I have already had the same cancer twice and will probably face it again and end up in this exact situation.

reply from: Draiocht

But wait, you would only have the right to do that if you were male, according to the wackos here! Females are just slaves to these terrorist pieces of crap.

reply from: scopia19822

"This is SUCH a thorny topic. If I had a terminal illness and it got to the point that I was suffering so badly that NO pain medication worked, I would ask my doctor for strong sleeping pills - and take them all at once. I say this ONLY because I had to watch my father suffer horribly and die many years ago, and because I have already had the same cancer twice and will probably face it again and end up in this exact situation."
RML I would not tell your doc your intent.... I think I could understand why a person in that sitaution would want to die, but I dont condone it. However what you do in that regard is between you and God, but just dont bring any 3rd parties into it.

reply from: Cecilia

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.
But you do agree people should have the right to kill themselves if they want right? I mean, if I am ever suffering from some illnesses I think a quick painless death might not seem so bad.
No. I am against euthanasia. I am quite horrified that bill got passed.
I am not against removing someone from life support systems if there is no hope of recovery. I am against purposely injecting them with something to kill them. Let nature take them as it will; don't force the issue.
I hope you don't support euthanasia of animals then, "let nature take them as it will", suffering, in pain, no hope of quality of life.
I think people who have seen suffering are more understanding of why people would want to take euthanasia drugs. I would not want to keep someone from dying the way they want to if they are in unbelieveabe pain with no hope for quality oflife.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Why should you have the right to force me to live? You don't own me.
Suicide is illegal you do realise. Taking your own life is still taking the life of a human being, and that is against the law.
That is their business. NOT yours.
Actually it's not their business, it's mine if I am named as the person to make that decision should they be comatose.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I agree obviously. I very much dislike suicide.
But you do agree people should have the right to kill themselves if they want right? I mean, if I am ever suffering from some illnesses I think a quick painless death might not seem so bad.
No. I am against euthanasia. I am quite horrified that bill got passed.
I am not against removing someone from life support systems if there is no hope of recovery. I am against purposely injecting them with something to kill them. Let nature take them as it will; don't force the issue.
I hope you don't support euthanasia of animals then, "let nature take them as it will", suffering, in pain, no hope of quality of life.
I think people who have seen suffering are more understanding of why people would want to take euthanasia drugs. I would not want to keep someone from dying the way they want to if they are in unbelieveabe pain with no hope for quality oflife.
I don't really like the idea of animal euthanasia, no. I've had several pets euthanized and I consider it merciful, but I don't feel the same morals we apply to animals can be applied to people. I honestly don't know exactly how I feel on the issue, other than that I am against it for humans. I just really, REALLY dislike the idea of purposely killing someone else or letting them commit suicide.
I have watched three people suffer and die. My great grandmother starved herself to death because euthanasia was not legal. My Grandpa D slowly wasted away. My Grandpa M died suddenly from an incredibly painful aortic anyeurism and complications after surgery due to preexisting conditions and his age. In all 3 cases there was a case for legal euthanasia. In the third case, we pulled the plug after his kidneys couldn't turn back on.
And despite all of this, I still do not feel right about legal euthanasia. I think I'm very understanding of why someone would want to kill themselves, and I still disapprove.

reply from: JRH

If you refuse to disclose their decision to the doctor and ignore their wishes you are evil. Anyway, I was talking about anyone. If I want to kill myself then I should be able to.

reply from: JRH

What gives you the authority to step in and say they can't die?

reply from: scopia19822

"Suicide is illegal you do realise. Taking your own life is still taking the life of a human being, and that is against the law. "
It is that way so that if a person attempts suicide, it can be enough grounds for the police to take that person to the hospital to get them the mental health care they need.

reply from: BossMomma

How are they going to prosecute you if you kill yourself?
"Will the corpse please be propped up in the witness stand for questioning?"
LMFAO!!!
I always wondered why there is a law against suicide, I own my life and have the right to end it if I choose, and believe me if I were suffering a terminal illness I'd off myself long before I lost all dignity and independance.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you kill yourself, your life insurance is invalid. Surviving the attempt can get you punished, though usually you go to therapy instead. Helping someone commit suicide is also illegal.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

And that's an excellent idea, imo.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you refuse to disclose their decision to the doctor and ignore their wishes you are evil. Anyway, I was talking about anyone. If I want to kill myself then I should be able to.
If I refuse to tell the doctor that person's decision and I ignore their wishes? Why on earth would I ever do that? Why would anyone do that? But I will NOT do anything that is against the law; and assisting in suicide is not only against the law, it is against my personal morals. You cannot force me to do anything that is against my morals, no matter how badly you want to commit suicide.

reply from: Banned Member

7 minutes between the first post and the second = TROLL!

reply from: Cecilia

It is hard to be brave and do what is right in those kinds of situations. Hopeful you will not have to make a decision for someone else, because it sounds like you would follow your own path instead of what someone else wants for themself.
Suicide is illegal but it's complicated. People who are suicidal with mental illness are not the same as people who are chronically and fatally ill. There is cognition to consider.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It is hard to be brave and do what is right in those kinds of situations. Hopeful you will not have to make a decision for someone else, because it sounds like you would follow your own path instead of what someone else wants for themself.
If that person wanted to committ suicide, hell no I wouldn't help them. If they were already comatose and the only thing keeping them alive was machines, I'd pull the cord myself. Never give up until it's over.
Again, I think it's shameful and weak to give up. So I sure hope no one ever wants me to help them kill themselves, because I'll be reporting them before they can say "asprin".

reply from: Rosalie

You need to learn to keep your beliefs to yourselves. I at least hope that you will make these opinions known to everyone around you so no one will actually count on you to respect their extremely personal wishes.
Not everyone thinks that a beating heart is everything that matters. Some of us actually distinguish between being alive and living. They are not the same things.
Your last paragraphs sounds like it came from a conceited school girl who knows zero about illnesses and pain. I HOPE it is true because I wouldn't want anyone see what I have seen.

reply from: yoda

Not necessarily. Some life policies have a suicide rider that keep the policy from paying off on a suicide for a year or two after it's taken out, but it depends on the policy.
I wonder what the penalty is for a successful suicide?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You need to learn to keep your beliefs to yourselves. I at least hope that you will make these opinions known to everyone around you so no one will actually count on you to respect their extremely personal wishes.
Not everyone thinks that a beating heart is everything that matters. Some of us actually distinguish between being alive and living. They are not the same things.
Your last paragraphs sounds like it came from a conceited school girl who knows zero about illnesses and pain. I HOPE it is true because I wouldn't want anyone see what I have seen.
This is a public forum, I'm not keeping ANY of my opinions to myself. Don't like em? Put me on ignore. And if you'd actually READ what I type, you'd realise I differentiate too. As I have said at least two times, I will pull the plug on someone who is only alive via machines. Or in cases of total vegetation where only a feeding tube is keeping them alive; pull it out already!!
But will I voluntarily help a conscious, capable, living, thinking person kill themselves? Not under any circumstances - unless it was the preposterous like "my suicide will save the world".
I am nearly 24, I am a college graduate and a teacher. I have seen pain and suffering, and I have experienced pain and suffering. Despite that, I've never personally been suicidal. I watched my one grandfather waste away, the other died suddenly and we had to pull the plug. I have experienced excrutiating acute pain as well as intense chronic pain.
I know what I'm talking about, child.

reply from: Rosalie

Learn to read? I didn't say that you are not entitled to an opinion. I said that you are supposed to keep your BELIEFS to yourself. As in that your beliefs may be valid for you but not to other people.
Stop looking for an offense and read what I actually wrote. This happens awfully often with you.
I think it's a stupid thing to do.
As I have just pointed out above, it is YOU who does not read my posts properly.

So someone who is in unbearable pain due to terminal cancer (you may not be aware of that but there's a point when even the strongest painkillers do nothing for the person and it's more than unbearable to watch someone in so much pain) is just a messed up person who should not die just because he or she is capable of thinking for themselves?
I am 5 years older than you, I have two Master's degrees and a career currently on hold for a while because I have a small baby.
Nice to meet you. What's your point?
I'm very sorry that you have. Nearly everyone does but it still doesn't change the fact that it's horrible.
I don't know what you've been through - it is none of my business, really. Thing is, that if you have seen and heard people who are dying of a terminal illness in much more pain that you are ever capable of imagining and you still think they should not have the right to end their suffering, I do have to wonder what kind of person you are. Because that is just very much against MY beliefs.
Condescending attitude does not become you - especially because it is horribly out of place as I am 5 years older than you. You have just made a fool of yourself, child.

reply from: myasmommy713

Im terribly saddened by this news.......it didnt hurt??? well did you know that it hurt your baby?? Cause it did. http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

Did you ever think there are SOOOOOO many people out there that would love to have children that cannot and you just killed one that someone may have raised and loved and taken care of? And you say it didnt hurt, well you having an abortion may have just prevented you from ever having another baby or having a healthy one.
"Abortion doesnt make you unpregnant it makes you a mother to a dead baby"

reply from: Rosalie

Um no, it didn't. The fetus was most likely too young to have a developed sensory system (which we need to feel pain).
In case of a later term abortion (and these happen almost exclusively due to severe health or life threatening complications), the woman is put under, and if you possess any common sense and basic knowledge, you know that a fetus is connected to the woman via the umbilical cord and therefore whatever the woman gets, the fetus gets too. So if the woman doesn't feel anything, the fetus doesn't either.
I wonder, am I confusing you with logic too much now?
Pregnancy poses more risks than an abortion and it can also be a cause of serious complications that might prevent the woman from having any more babies.
Both abortion abd regnancy should always be matters of choice and most women are educated enough to know that risks come with everything. It's their call.
Abortion is a procedure that ends a pregnancy and removes a fetus (usually an unwanted fetus) from the woman's body. Your emo drivel is just that, emo drivel.

reply from: carolemarie

It is still wrong to kill your children to have an easier life....
it doesn't matter if the fetus feels pain or not
the issue is that a fetus is a separate person who deserves to live, like each of us live.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I agree with everything you said carolmarie.
I disagree with Rosalie saying women have choices which include whether to kill their very young offspring, usually done for convenience.
Rosalie is wrong to denigrate myasmommy713 comments. Rosalie is wrong.
The reason we are here is to carry out God's Will, to serve Him. That service includes the requirement to love our neighbor, to be our brother's keeper, to care for and raise the children we have conceived. We are required to provide for our children, not abscond our responsibility by killing him or her.

reply from: Rosalie

Nope, sorry, I don't buy into your agenda that everyone deserves to be born.

reply from: Rosalie

I agree with everything you said carolmarie.
I disagree with Rosalie saying women have choices which include whether to kill their very young offspring, usually done for convenience.
Rosalie is wrong to denigrate myasmommy713 comments. Rosalie is wrong.
The reason we are here is to carry out God's Will, to serve Him. That service includes the requirement to love our neighbor, to be our brother's keeper, to care for and raise the children we have conceived. We are required to provide for our children, not abscond our responsibility by killing him or her.
Well I pretty much knew that comfronting you with logic and facts will elicit this sort of response.
And I don't care about your "god", keep him.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Nope, sorry, I don't buy into your agenda that everyone deserves to be born.
Everyone deserves to be born.

reply from: Rosalie

That's your opinion. I disagree.

reply from: CharlesD

Opinions are like butts. Everyone has one and most of them stink. Opinions aside, it is a fact and not an opinion that unborn children are still living human beings and it is still wrong to kill innocent human beings. When someone shows me scientific proof that an unborn baby is not a human being and it is not alive, then I'll concede that it doesn't have the right to life. Until then, I'll stick with the facts.

reply from: scopia19822

"Opinions are like butts. Everyone has one and most of them stink. Opinions aside, it is a fact and not an opinion that unborn children are still living human beings and it is still wrong to kill innocent human beings. When someone shows me scientific proof that an unborn baby is not a human being and it is not alive, then I'll concede that it doesn't have the right to life. Until then, I'll stick with the facts."
Charles, most of the proaborts slept through high school biology on the day that human development was being taught.

reply from: ProInformed

That's a lie and you've been posting here long enough to know that.
The abortion industry is not legally required to report complications caused by abortions, and IF they do they can falsely report them as being caused by 'pregnancy/childbirth' instead of abortion in order to pretend that abortion is 'safer than childbirth'.
Also, ABORTION can cause serious complications, including causing problems with future pregnancies.
You're a liar who has no real regard for the rights and safety of women.
You defend the abortion industry instead of defending women.

reply from: scopia19822

That's a lie and you've been posting here long enough to know that.
The abortion industry is not legally required to report complications caused by abortions, and IF they do they can falsely report them as being caused by 'pregnancy/childbirth' instead of abortion in order to pretend that abortion is 'safer than childbirth'.
Also, ABORTION can cause serious complications, including causing problems with future pregnancies.
You're a liar who has no real regard for the rights and safety of women.
You defend the abortion industry instead of defending women.
In the case of abortion related deaths from complications like hemmoraging or septacima the cause of death on te death certificate will be recorded as hemmoraging or septicima. It will not list that it was the result of an induced abortion, where if it is anything related to childbirth that will be recorded because in most states the law requires that all deaths from pregnancy or childbirth be recoeded as such. I think the same should have to apply to abortions. Women who go into the ER with life threatening abortion related complications are often reluctant to tell the doctors that they had an abortion, especially if they dont want those close to them to know. Whereas in Childbirth the doctors are already there at the time complications may arise.

reply from: scopia19822

Liberal I think te question we should ask Rosalie is if that is the case, than what gives her the right to be here.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Also a good question!

reply from: Nulono

Here, have a semicolon.

reply from: Rosalie

Why don't you first show me where does it say that everyone has the RIGHT to be born?
Oh wait, you can't. There's no such thing. It's just something you made up.

reply from: Rosalie

It is NOT a lie and I find it funny that you think I would take anything any of YOU post here, that is usually back up by some extremely "reliable" sources as any sort of solid evidence.
So can pregnancy.
It is all about the woman making an informed choice. There's a risk with EVERYTHING. There's no such thing as a no-risk pregnancy or no-risk abortion.
I'm not a liar but it doesn't surprise me to have a person like you to call me that.
I have the highest regard for women and their safey, that's why I do as much as I can to help them in real life.
Yet another lie from you. How unsurprising.

reply from: Rosalie

Why?
Why should I? There's no such thing as the right to be born.

reply from: Rosalie

What does me being here had to do with your imaginary right to be born?
I never had the right to be BORN. My parents have made an informed choice to have me. So in a sense, they gave me that right. They weren't obligated, though, and I'd never want anyone to feel obligated to give birth.
Can you prove that there is such thing as the right to be born?

reply from: ProInformed

Liar.
Most late-term abortions are because a prenatal diagnostic test has shown that their MIGHT be some imperfection with the baby. They are eugenic abortions.
Many babies with only slight problems, and sometimes even healthy babies, are killed either because the parents or the doctor are so prejudiced that they woudl rather kill a perfectly healthy baby than allow an even mildly handicapped baby to live.
Also, even when the mother is given general anesthesia for a C-section, the baby is born wide awake, crying and kicking. OBVIOUSLY then giving the mother anesthesia does not have the same extent of affect on the baby as it does ont the mother. There was a lie being circulated by the abortion industry that anesthesia given to the mother killed tha baby, so that when the gruesome partial-birth abortion method was used, the baby supposeldy was already dead... that stabbing the baby in the base of the neck and sucking the baby's brains out was supposedly not a cruel and cowardly act of fatal violence. Anesthesiologists all over the country spoke up against that particular abortion industry lie. The lie you posted was a weaker version of the same lie. Babies that are born or that are aborted, while their mother is under anesthesia, are not as affected by the anesthesia as you pro-abort liars pretend.

reply from: Rosalie

I love that you call me that when you can't stand that I'm saying the truth. So by all means, attack me as much as you like. I don't expect anything else from "pro-lifers".
It's their call, always. If the diagnosis is so horrible that the baby would only live for a couple of hours and then died a horribly painful dead, then no wonder so many people feel abortion is the better option in this case.
It's always up to the woman whether she wants to go through with it or not.
You really don't know how that works, do you?
How do you explain that pregnant women should, in an ideal case, abstain from drinking and smoking and eating certain types of foods? It's because what SHE gets the baby gets, too. How can you call yourself pro-informed when you don't understand the basics, such as that everything that gets into the woman's body gets to the fetus eventually. Two words for you, "Pro-Informed": umbilical cord.
And there's usually no need for general anesthesia during a C-section, it's usually performed with local anesthesia.
You're really not making any sense at all. I had trouble getting a nasal spray while I was pregnant - I had to check with my doctor and everything. Guess why? Because what I used had an effect on my fetus. Guess why women shouldn't use antibiotics until absolutely necessary during pregnancy? Any guesses?
To sum it up - ccording to you, a nose spray COULD harm a fetus but anesthesia has no effect on it, right?
You are clearly everything but informed.

reply from: Cecilia

It is hard to be brave and do what is right in those kinds of situations. Hopeful you will not have to make a decision for someone else, because it sounds like you would follow your own path instead of what someone else wants for themself.
If that person wanted to committ suicide, hell no I wouldn't help them. If they were already comatose and the only thing keeping them alive was machines, I'd pull the cord myself. Never give up until it's over.
Again, I think it's shameful and weak to give up. So I sure hope no one ever wants me to help them kill themselves, because I'll be reporting them before they can say "asprin".
I hope no one ever asks you to do their wishes either because it sounds like you would be unable to be selfless at this point in your life. If a mentally ill person is suicidal you should report them, but if an elderly person wishes to commit suicide from chronic debilitating pain you should say I can't do that in good conscience and walk away. Reporting them is like running to tell teacher someone and you said you are 24, so you must be past that stage in your life. Think of others, not yourself. If you are prolife you would think this would come all the more to you easy.
But that is problem with prolife is that they say they care about others but really they only care about what they want and do not care about what others want.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I do not think I could kill my father even if he begged. Running to tell the teacher isn't a bad thing; I was never taught that being honest and truthful was horrible as you seem to think it is. I think YOU are shameful, whatever your age is. You don't have any respect for justice or life. Then again, you're just a pro-choicer so what should I expect?

reply from: angell

Dazed and confused; You killed your baby just like that you sick ***** and you say it didn't hurt. Wait until you are in hell, then you will feel the pain.

reply from: churchmouse

Are you serious?
Then can you show me where it says you have the right to live?
The Constitution says we have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Yes, especially those that choose to murder their children. They are high on your list arent they?
You just could care less that the unborn in the womb is dismembered alive. The fact that its heart is beating is irrelevant, right? That his/her brain that is functioning is irrelevant. What kind of person would condone this?
What kind of person are you?
Who in their right mind would think that what you say is the truth. That killing a living human being is ok........that is compassionate and a loving attitude?
Why? You can buy nasal spray over the counter. Why would you check with your doctor? Like why would you care for a life in the womb? LMAO
You mean you cared about your fetus?

reply from: Danima

I'm pretty sure you are a troll with a fictional tale.
However, I'm sure an abortion would most definitely hurt a baby and it would take up all of that person's remaining time.
It sounds like you are a low-lifer concentrating only on how this affects you, not your baby.
You are a selfish worthless person. In life, we are here to take care of others. You certainly did not honor your responsibility to mother your child. You are a foul abomination.
There is no inheritance waiting for you; for you are useless. You do not help, nurture and support your brothers and sisters.
What does your post do for this person? You blatantly attack this woman by calling her worthless and an abomination. Does this help this person at all? Does it portray the loving environment the pro-life movement portrays? Or does it instead push someone away who is at this very moment more in need of help and love than ever before?
You quote the Bible in your signature, and yet you discard Christ's words in the Holy Gospel according to St. Luke [6:36-37] "Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven." For if you have not sinned, then who are you to condemn? [John 8:7] "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Who are you to slash at your sister? Are you also not supporting your brothers and sisters?"If you judge people, you have no time to love them. " - Mother Teresa
Be careful, friend, when speaking of responsibility. [Mathew 9:13] " Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners." Keep this in mind, and be not unlike God in his love and patience. Yes, she did wrong to abort, but God calls to her, and you reject her.
And if this was all falsified, that this question was not real, then know this: would you risk rejecting one who was truly in need in order to avoid being tricked by those who are not?
I agree with your pro-life, anti-abortion stance, but not with the way you attack others. Let this message not only touch you, but all who adopt your point of view.

reply from: Danima

Um no, it didn't. The fetus was most likely too young to have a developed sensory system (which we need to feel pain).
In case of a later term abortion (and these happen almost exclusively due to severe health or life threatening complications), the woman is put under, and if you possess any common sense and basic knowledge, you know that a fetus is connected to the woman via the umbilical cord and therefore whatever the woman gets, the fetus gets too. So if the woman doesn't feel anything, the fetus doesn't either.
I wonder, am I confusing you with logic too much now?
Pregnancy poses more risks than an abortion and it can also be a cause of serious complications that might prevent the woman from having any more babies.
Both abortion abd regnancy should always be matters of choice and most women are educated enough to know that risks come with everything. It's their call.
Abortion is a procedure that ends a pregnancy and removes a fetus (usually an unwanted fetus) from the woman's body. Your emo drivel is just that, emo drivel.
Please, Rosalie, keep your head. There is no sarcasm needed here. I wish you would challenge your opinion, "Pregnancy poses more risks than an abortion". Buy the book Lime 5, by Mark Crutcher. If after reading the first thirty pages, you still believe in the legitimate medical claim of the abortion industry, then let me know.

reply from: Danima

Why don't you first show me where does it say that everyone has the RIGHT to be born?
Oh wait, you can't. There's no such thing. It's just something you made up.
Again, please be respectful, not only you, but everyone on this thread.
I understand what you say, about the right to be born. Now, i suppose you do acknowledge our Bill of Rights, and the rights of prisoners of war (the United States Military Code of Conduct), and similar documents. However, who ever gave them the right to claim those rights as valid? And if they received that right from someone, again, where would that person gain that right?
Our Constitution says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." A group of people claim something to be self-evident, and so make them rights. On top of that, they were based on "their Creator", so taking religion out of the equation is clearly out of the question. If so, then we must look to the Creator's laws, his Word, the Holy Bible.
Every time a fetus is implied in the Bible, the word child, son, or daughter is most often used. Conclusion: there is no difference between killing a born child and one in the womb. Take a look at the Book of Judges [13:7] "... from his infancy, from his mother's womb until the day of his death." In other words, the child in the womb is already an infant.
Back to the Constitution: it guarantees the right to life, but the right is guaranteed only to certain people. At first, it was only white people. Then the African American people were included. Soon, the infants will have their rights as well. However, the only difference is that they cannot stand up for themselves.
Another thought: the Creator creates with the help of man and women, and only when the sperm and the egg come together does the soul become present. From that moment on, something has been created, and is growing. No one is created at birth, only liberated from the confinement of his mother's womb. One cannot say the same about the seed or the egg prior to conception, because left un-joined, it does not grow, but dies.

reply from: Rosalie

Can you show me anything about a right to be born?
Why do you keep lying about me? Please stop because I really don't want to call you a liar. This statement alone does make you one because your accusation is completely untrue.
I am pro-choice - meaning one choice is not more important than the other. Can you wrap your head around that?
I always have women ask me what I would do in their situation - I never tell them. It's not my place - it's their bodies, their lives. I am there to help them, not to decide for them or judge them for their choices. Everyone can preach about eternal damnation and behave like a fanatical, intolerant jerk. It takes some serious character development, compassion and overall goodness to actually be there and help those who need it without passing judgment on them or trying to force them into choices YOU agree with.
That is not what usually happens during an abortion. The majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester. Sometimes even a swallowing a pill is enough.
Not to mention that you regard embryos and fetuses as though they were sentient and could feel pain - and that's just not true. In the timeframe most abortions occur, fetuses are completely non-sentient and cannot feel pain.
There are born children who have horrible things happening to them every single day. They are aware of all that and they feel every single thing. I feel for them and I'm trying to help them. Their plight is incomparable to what an abortion is. Absolutely incomparable.
According to the people around me (that is people in real life, people who matter, not radicals on an internet forum), a very good one.
Who in their right mind would think that it isn't?
Yes.
Because I wanted both of us to be healthy.
Why wouldn't I?
Of course I did.
Or are you so stupid that believe all your "pro-life" propaganda about pro-choicers hating children? I really pity you if that's the case.

reply from: Rosalie

Sarcasm is often needed.
I have challenged my position many times - I actually like to learn things and do my own research.
Medical websites, medical journals (from an actual library), doctors' opinions - these are the facts. Your "pro-life" propaganda (Mark Cructher? REALLY?!) has nothing to do with the truth.

reply from: Rosalie

There was nothing disrespectful about me asking that question. Please calm down.
Keep your "Creator". I don't believe in your ancient fairy tales.
I do not care about your Bible. Which means your so-called arguments are absolutely useless.
Infants do have rights. Infants are born babies.
There's a conflict of rights when a pregnancy occurs. Nobody in their right mind would give up THEIR rights up just so someone else could them assign them to a fetus.
For the last time: I don't give a crap about your religion, your creator, your Bible.

reply from: JRH

No the declaration of independence says that and it is not a legal document. Your ignorance of the law does not make you seem like credible source of information.
LOL. The founders were deists in often cases-not Christians. Certainly Franklin, Madison, and Jefferson were not Christians. Your god is not the only on people believe in. More to the point, we establish a separation of church and state in the constitution, which is a legal document. Finally, let me quote the treaty of tripoli:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Click here to see the actual article 11 of the Treaty
Passed by the early congress.....
I don't care because this is a secular country.
The Government certainly does not recognize the soul as it is secular in nature.

reply from: JRH

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?
Being sorry doesn't get anyone to heaven. No one is going there. However, to inherit eternal life and a position in the Government one must overcome even as Jesus overcame. You must obey the law to receive eternal life. This is being "sorry", this is true "repentance".

reply from: JRH

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?
Being sorry doesn't get anyone to heaven. It does if they repent and believe in Jesus.
I am going to quote the bible, which you seem not to understand.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
All who believe in Jesus shall have everlasting life in heaven.
Even among Christians you are a fringe lunatic.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?
Being sorry doesn't get anyone to heaven. It does if they repent and believe in Jesus.
I am going to quote the bible, which you seem not to understand.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
All who believe in Jesus shall have everlasting life in heaven.
Even among Christians you are a fringe lunatic.
Someone who believes in Jesus will follow him. He is our example, and we should walk in his footsteps. What does it mean to "follow Him". He is the Lord, the one who gave us the Bible and thundered out the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. We need to follow him now just as Israel should have followed him in the wilderness. Please know that the Spiritual Rock that went with Israel in the wilderness was Jesus, and they all drank from that Spiritual Rock. The physical Exodus is a prophecy and picture of our Spiritual Exodus. We are required to obey Christ's commands; and he always does His Father's Will. He promotes the law.
Today the sacrifricial law has been replaced by Jesus' Sacrifice. The physical circumcision has been replaced with the Spiritual circumcision. None of this voids God's requirement to love God and love your neighbor.
God's command to Abraham stands: "Walk before me and be perfect" and what he said to Cain is still true, "Sin desires to have you, but you must master it (rule over it, take charge, be the boss, conquer it, eliminate it).

reply from: JRH

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?
Being sorry doesn't get anyone to heaven. It does if they repent and believe in Jesus.
I am going to quote the bible, which you seem not to understand.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
All who believe in Jesus shall have everlasting life in heaven.
Even among Christians you are a fringe lunatic.
Someone who believes in Jesus will follow him. He is our example, and we should walk in his footsteps. What does it mean to "follow Him". He is the Lord, the one who gave us the Bible and thundered out the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. We need to follow him now just as Israel should have followed him in the wilderness. Please know that the Spiritual Rock that went with Israel in the wilderness was Jesus, and they all drank from that Spiritual Rock. The physical Exodus is a prophecy and picture of our Spiritual Exodus. We are required to obey Christ's commands; and he always does His Father's Will. He promotes the law.
Today the sacrifricial law has been replaced by Jesus' Sacrifice. The physical circumcision has been replaced with the Spiritual circumcision. None of this voids God's requirement to love God and love your neighbor.
If you get saved and die 10 seconds later having done no works you still go to heaven. Thus, while faith will cause you to do good works, faith is itself enough to get you to heaven without any sort of following being done after you get saved. Sorry you're illogical.
We're under the new covenant, and no one is righteous.
Romans 3:11
There is no one righteous, no not one

reply from: LiberalChiRo

All she has to do is be truly sorry and she still get to go to heaven remember>?
That is true JRH; that's one of the most important aspects of Christianity. ANYONE can be saved. You're also right that GodsLaw is wacko!
Being "truly sorry" isn't enough though. You have to completely give yourself over to Christ's love and truly believe in Him. IF you do this, then following God's laws isn't such a big deal, so in a way GodsLaw is sort of right: a true devout Christian will want to follow God's laws. I consider the most basic laws to be followed to be the ten commandments; those are pretty clear. However a lot of the other "laws" that people claim God has are not so clear, including rules against homosexuality, women being subservient to men, and even abortion. THOSE things are up to the indiviudal reading the Bible to interpret.
There's one specific example I can give, where in the Bible it states something about snakes not biting a person who truly believes in Christ. There is a sect of Christians in the deep south of America who, during their weekly sermons, get out some poisonous snakes and dance around with them. That's their interpretation of the passage. It doesn't make them any more or less Christian than me or GodsLaw. On that note, GodsLaw has the right to worship and believe in God any way he wishes, and he interprets the Bible in any way he wants.
Being a self-interpreter can lead to some very disturbing and perverted uses of God's Word though, so most Christians fall back on one true unifying concept: Love for Christ. Through this, we should love each other and God. We should remember grace and kindness in all things. To me, that's the core of being Christian. Simply being a good person! And I think that's the underlying message really.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Sarcasm is often needed.
I have challenged my position many times - I actually like to learn things and do my own research.
Medical websites, medical journals (from an actual library), doctors' opinions - these are the facts. Your "pro-life" propaganda (Mark Cructher? REALLY?!) has nothing to do with the truth.
I think the best way to challenge your ideas is to BE part of the "other side" for a week. Read our sources as a pro-lifer, post as a pro-lifer (and not a sarcastic parody of one). Just for one day, consider it to be truth that the unborn is really a baby, a person, and that it deserves life. Be yourself, but be you who believes in the life of the unborn.
I mean, it's just for a week, it's not like that's really going to change your mind, is it? If you're solid in your beliefs, this should be a breeze.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Poor UnInformed. Women preparing for C-sections are given epidural or spinal anesthesia, which enables the woman to be awake for her surgery but completely numb from the breasts down. You feel like the lower part of your body is missing, but it is safer than general anesthesia and does not knock the woman out.
There are many reasons why a cesarean section is performed: Placenta previa, premature separation of the placenta, non-reassuring fetal tracing, fetal distress, failure to progress in labor, secondary arrest of dilatation, arrest of descent, breech presentation, etc. Vaginal delivery is ALWAYS preferable, and C-sections are only performed when necessary.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

JRH said:
We're under the new covenant, and no one is righteous.
Romans 3:11
There is no one righteous, no not one
So it's throw in the towel time. Does this mean, like the wicked Martin Luther said, you can murder a thousand times a day and as long as your faith in Christ is greater (whatever those vain words mean) you shall be forgiven and saved.
Maybe that's why you can give approval to aborting babies. It doesn't matter what wickedness you do, you "float" off to heaven anyway.
The Old Covenant: The law was written on tables of stone and we didn't do them.
The New Covenant: God promises to write the law on the fleshy tablets of our heart and we shall do them.

reply from: Rosalie

I HAVE done this. I have read the "pro-life" sources. It was incredibly ridiculous and I don't think I've never seen so many lies or purposefully misleading statements in one place. I have no desire to ever venture there again. I value facts and I despise propaganda.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat that 1) I have done my research, 2) I know the facts, 3) I am very well educated on this matter. I have considered what there is to consider. The pro-life movement is abhorrent to me and it represents a lot of the really wrong things that are wrong with this world today.
You might've been ignorant, gullible and what have you before you switched sides but don't presume that's the case with everyone else.
Everything I have read, witnessed or been through in my life has, after an evaluation, supported my strong pro-choice beliefs.
I am neither mislead nor uneducated nor naive. I know what there is to know about abortion and I am pro-choice. Period.

reply from: yoda

Hey, why are you spinning your wheels? Why are you wasting our time telling us what YOU think is "the problem with prolife", when no one really cares? Do you think we are all running for some political office, or in some popularity contest? Or do you just LOVE to sling sh*t?
What do you think this forum is here for, to have a sh*t slinging contest between proabort and prolife? Yeah, that would just suit you, wouldn't it?
No, this forum is here because around 3,000 to 4,000 unborn babies are being electively killed every day in this country. No one here really cares what YOU think about the other posters here, on either side. REALLY they don't.
Instead, why don't you tell us what makes it moral to electively kill an unborn baby?
Or is that "above your pay grade"?

reply from: yoda

I have some sad news for you..... most of us probably aren't here to help the other posters out. Prolifers, anyway, are mostly here to try to stop the elective slaughter of 3-4,000 babies that happens every day in this country.
As Mark Crutcher says, we're not here to convert them, we're here to defeat them (the proaborts).
And here's some more sad news..... trying to act as "manners moderator" here will not help the babies. People are free to post however they wish here, and if that doesn't suit your style then you may not be happy here.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I HAVE done this. I have read the "pro-life" sources. It was incredibly ridiculous and I don't think I've never seen so many lies or purposefully misleading statements in one place. I have no desire to ever venture there again. I value facts and I despise propaganda.
Just reading them isn't good enough; it sounds like you read them as a pro-choicer, not a pro-lifer. Now I'll admit most of the sources are crap. I'm pro-life from inside myself. Which is why I'm asking YOU to do the same. You don't have to read sources or any of that if you don't want to. Just for one week, accept that the unborn deserves life. You can go back to being pro-choice when this is over.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat that I felt the EXACT same way less than a year ago today. I felt exactly as you do; I knew all there was to know, I was well educated, and I felt that absolutely nothing could ever change my mind.
That's how I felt about it too, and there ARE many things totally wrong with pro-lifers that take it too far. But to be simple and believe that the unborn deserves life, and to approach it from a WOMAN'S point of view: that's what I do and what I strive to represent.
I felt the same way.
Nor am I.
So was I.

reply from: Danima

No the declaration of independence says that and it is not a legal document. Your ignorance of the law does not make you seem like credible source of information.
My mistake, what I meant was the Declaration, without which we would have no Constitution, mind you. In any case, lets assume that they were not specifically Christian. They believe in a Creator, who deems it right to create them. Now, this Creator would not cease to be the Creator just because he started the human race, otherwise he would be called the Originator, or something similar. Instead, he continues to create. Therefore, it is infringing upon the right of the Creator to create life, when one interrupts the process in any manner. Keep in mind that life ends at death, and only natural death (including accidents) are those by which the Creator sees his created things destroyed.
You have also drawn my attention to another mistake that slipped me:
In truth, the soul is the life of the being, whereas the spirit is what we were both referring to (although I meant the soul and the spirit). In other words, Christians believe that all creatures have souls, but only human beings have spirits.
The phrase, separation of church and state, originated in defense against religious persecution against the Dangury Baptists. Also, Article 11 is seeking to affirm peace with the Muslims, who would fear the United States if they said otherwise. The point they were putting across was that Therefore, I argue that these statements are out of original context.
In any sense, the Muslim God,the Christian God, and the Jewish God are one and the same. In fact, every monotheistic religion has its basis on the one faith predating Jesus by several thousand years, since the beginning of Man, with the exception of those concentrated on the Devil, which is also derived from the same religion. I believe that this same God is that which most people believe in, though often differently. However, defending my religion is not pertinent to this thread, and so if you would like to hear that, we should begin another thread.
I would like you to prove that the founders were in fact deists, and not Christians. If you look them up on Wikipedia, out of the 74 Delegates, 49 were Christian, and three were Catholic (which is also Christian....), for a total of 53 Christians. Jefferson was anti-religious, as well as George Washington, and John Adams. That is about 72%. In addition, deism is not a religion, just as fideism is not. They are both viewpoints of religious belief, deism based solely on reason, and fideism on revelation, although Catholics believe that religious belief utilizes both.

reply from: JRH

Not really. He can create it and then watch it die. Though I am not certain where the creator is given any rights in our laws. Cite such laws for me. Thanks!
Quite false. He can watch them end their life by any number of artificial means. Life ending is life ending no matter how you slice it.
Your religious beliefs are irrelevant to our secular government.
No, it did not. Read Thomas Jefferson, because he mentions that his intention was to build such a barrier.
It affirms also the position of the founders, unless of couorse you have evidence to the contrary.
It is not out of context at all. They are merely explaining to the people that there will not be trouble because we are not a Christian nation. Were they lying?
lol no
Deism is a form of monotheism which many founders practiced which has no connection any of that.
You tried to argue you religion gets to determine policy so you better damn well defend it.
Why do I need to prove it? You just admitted it for me.
i understand where you are coming from here, but I think there can be a debate on this premise.
Yes, many people believe quite silly things.

reply from: Rosalie

I have been pro-choice for more 13 years. I have heard it all, seen it all, read it all. Go find someone else to lecture - I certainly do not need it.
You still don't get it. How CAN you be so blind? I am NOT where you were a year ago. According to what YOU said, a year ago you were uneducated, confused girl. And I am nowhere near that.
There are things totally wrong with all pro-lifers.
All of this STILL eventually comes back to THE WOMAN. You cannot separate these two issues.
Clearly you didn't.
I'm not so sure about that. But maybe you really aren't. But you still fail to grasp some absolutely basic concepts - like the fact that just because YOU changed your opinion means absolutely NOTHING when applied to others. We are not you.
I doubt you ever felt the way I do.
And again, this condescending attitude does not become you at all. You're just making yourself look stupid.
NO, you are not the same as me. Your core beliefs and your morality is nowhere near the same as mine.
I despise everything about the so-called "pro-life" movement.It is inherently misogynistic, intolerant, harmful and horrible and I would not be a part of this for anything in the world. I KNOW exactly why I feel the way I do. I've made my choice. It's quite ironic that you can't respect that - but I guess it's logical since you do not respect choice, only the kind of choice YOU personally agree with.
Be as condescending what you want (it's funny, though, considering that I obviously have more experience -- and truth is, if you were a little smarter, you WOULD actually realize that your experience does not set precedense for anything. I really thought you were at least that smart - but I see I was wrong. But continue your condescending babbling all you want - maybe there are some people who were ignorant like you and who are so easily swayed and who definitely do not know WHERE their true beliefs and heart lies - but there are also those who HAVE made the effort to research the subject and who are clear on who they are, what they feel and why they feel the way they feel and that's why this is something that just cannot change like that. But you obviously don't understand that so I'm not going to bother anymore.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I have been pro-choice for more 13 years. I have heard it all, seen it all, read it all. Go find someone else to lecture - I certainly do not need it.
I'm not lecturing you, I'm imploring.
You still don't get it. How CAN you be so blind? I am NOT where you were a year ago. According to what YOU said, a year ago you were uneducated, confused girl. And I am nowhere near that.
Why do you think from everything I just said that I was uneducated, a GIRL, or confused? I was 23 last year, I was (and am) a WOMAN. I was in my final year of college; far from uneducated, I am among the educated elite of this nation. And I certainly wasn't confused. I was steafast in my position.
You think I'm being condescending? YOU are being condescending. To be quite honest I felt my tone was more earnest and imploring than anything else.
There are things totally wrong with all pro-lifers.
There are things totally wrong with all pro-choicers: they approve of killing babies.
All of this STILL eventually comes back to THE WOMAN. You cannot separate these two issues.
Of course it does; why wouldn't it? But it's not JUST about her. It is about her AND her child. But I happen to realise that since the child is inside of her, you need to convince HER to give it life. Ranting about the baby just makes pro-lifers sound like woman-hating idiots.
I doubt you ever felt the way I do.
How do you know?
At least I'm not personally attacking you or calling you stupid. I repeat, you think I'm being condescending? YOU are being condescending, calling me "girl", "child", "stupid", and acting like I haven't got a clue.
So you think. (Alright, that comment is a little condescending I admit.)
So you despise the concept of making abortion uneeded through better birth control, education, and prenatal care? You want women to forever have to kill their babies becuase their birth control failed, they didn't know how to use it, or they couldn't afford prenatal care? That sounds very anti-woman to me. Yet pro-lifers want women to have better prenatal care; we want women to have better birth control and education!
I'm none of the above. I want women to CHOOSE life for their child. I want... I want no more unwanted pregnancies!! I want women to be able to have a child only when they want one; and I want no children killed in the process just because their existence was inconvenient and/or unexpected.
I feel a lot of women abort because they are scared of the social stigmata against unwed pregnant women: I wish society could change that view. I feel a lot of women abort because they are ashamed, and they shouldn't be; what did they do wrong? Nothing! I think many women abort because they can't afford prenatal care, and that's why I voted for universal health care under Obama! I think many women abort because they can't afford a child, and I wish that adoption could be viewed in a better light AND that programs for poor mothers would be better, and focus on training for a career, not just a job.
And where do I get those ideas of why women abort? Guttmacher, evil ol' Planned Parenthood's research wing. I don't even believe that nonsense of their connection, and even if they are, so what? I like Planned Parenthood too.
So tell me again how completely different we are...
I never said "I don't respect your choice". I simply feel it is wrong to kill unborn babies. *shurg*
I'd love your proof of that, by the way...
Now who sounds condescending?? The rest of your post had the same exact tone. "You're a stupid little girl!!" Why don't you just copy-paste that over and over again eh? I'll just laugh because I know I am a woman, highly intelligent, educated, and... well alright, I am rather short and slim. I'll have to accept the "little" aspect of that.

reply from: carolemarie

I was prochoice for many many years, and I have found that the arguments for the prochoice side are the ones that don't hold water. I wish it was the other way around, but the hard truth is that abortion ends the life of a baby. The babies right to live trumps the womans right for a trouble free life. As long as adoption is an option, there is no reason to kill the baby. You don't have to raise it if you don't want it.)
(If it is her health, or rape or incest, then that is a different issue. )
I understand that women have various reasons for seeking abortions, and I empathize with them...but ending the life of a baby isn't the way out of a tough spot....

reply from: Cecilia

You are the one who would be unable to do another's wishes because of your own agenda. You think that tattling to teacher is "respect for justice"?
I have the upmost respect for someone's life andif they are somatically ill with chronic pain and want to end it I respect their decision. Of the two of us, who does not?

A plain adherence to law shows a very baseline cognition. Are you familiar with Bloom's Taxonomy? You have not quite yet reached the highest so keep climbing.
Do you report friends you know who do illegal things? Maybe next time they are speeding in their car you should call 911 on t hem. It would be for their own good, and you would be honest and truthful! Ha ha
Never did I say you are shameful, you said "giving up is shameful". Not kind words from "compassionate" "respectful of life" prolifer.
So much love and compassion from this "angel"!!

reply from: Cecilia

If you have to keep telling everyone how mature and smart you are that might be a sign.
What is the frase?
"My lady doth protest too much"

reply from: scopia19822

"I was prochoice for many many years, and I have found that the arguments for the prochoice side are the ones that don't hold water. I wish it was the other way around, but the hard truth is that abortion ends the life of a baby. The babies right to live trumps the womans right for a trouble free life. As long as adoption is an option, there is no reason to kill the baby. You don't have to raise it if you don't want it.)
(If it is her health, or rape or incest, then that is a different issue. )
I understand that women have various reasons for seeking abortions, and I empathize with them...but ending the life of a baby isn't the way out of a tough spot..."
I agree with you Carole, except for the rape/incest or health of the mother clause. If we support the right to life for babies, we must support the right to life for ALL babies no matter the circumstances they were conceived under. A child conceived by rape or incest is just as deserving of life as one who is not. The "health" clause has been twisted and stretched so much that a pregnant woman can complain about a sore toe blame it on the pregnancy and be able to use "health" to justify an abortion.

reply from: nancyu

Here, have a semicolon.
I get a kick out of your obsession with grammar and punctuation, Nulono.

reply from: nancyu

http://www.lifecall.org/twowomen.htm
Personal stories and helpful links for women in crisis pregnancies.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Women who chose abortion:
www.imnotsorry.net

reply from: yoda

Just for the proaborts:
http://www.ILoveToKillBabies.com

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Once again, you have posted a nonworking link. I'm sure it's something insulting, fake and/or worthless anyway.

reply from: scopia19822

this brings to ask, if you dont regret your abortion RML and other prochoicers think abortion should be a right and is a good thing for some women. Why are you all here on a prolife forum, what do you hope to gain by being here? Why not on a prochoice site ?

reply from: nancyu

Gee Yoda, Isn't that pretty much the same as the link RML posted?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

this brings to ask, if you dont regret your abortion RML and other prochoicers think abortion should be a right and is a good thing for some women. Why are you all here on a prolife forum, what do you hope to gain by being here? Why not on a prochoice site ?[/q]
I came here hoping to learn more about the pro-life movement's beliefs and to show them that abortion isn't always a terrible thing. Unfortunately, this is not a very good place to learn good things about prolifers. While several people here are wonderful and intelligent and convincing, most are either incredibly stupid and/or could not convince me of ANYTHING because of their inability to write properly and/or to debate without insults. (Think nancyu, GL4UTL, etc.) I have not learned much good about prolifers, if the ones here are typical. I HAVE learned that I can be friends with people who do not share my beliefs, and that is a good thing.
Where ARE the prochoice sites? I cannot find any with debates. Even prochoice.com is a prolife site full of lies. If you can recommend any REAL prochoice sites with debate forums, I'd love to read them.

reply from: nancyu

this brings to ask, if you dont regret your abortion RML and other prochoicers think abortion should be a right and is a good thing for some women. Why are you all here on a prolife forum, what do you hope to gain by being here? Why not on a prochoice site ?[/q]
I came here hoping to learn more about the pro-life movement's beliefs and to show them that abortion isn't always a terrible thing. Unfortunately, this is not a very good place to learn good things about prolifers. While several people here are wonderful and intelligent and convincing, most are either incredibly stupid and/or could not convince me of ANYTHING because of their inability to write properly and/or to debate without insults. (Think nancyu, GL4UTL, etc.) I have not learned much good about prolifers, if the ones here are typical. I HAVE learned that I can be friends with people who do not share my beliefs, and that is a good thing.
Where ARE the prochoice sites? I cannot find any with debates. Even prochoice.com is a prolife site full of lies. If you can recommend any REAL prochoice sites with debate forums, I'd love to read them.
What would pro choicers debate? You have nothing to base your arguments on. All you have is: "I just I want to kill my baby, so I will whether it's right or wrong, and there's nothing you can do to stop me, so there."

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I'm sure the debate would center on how to stop the lies coming from the prolife side.

reply from: nancyu

Once again, you have posted a nonworking link. I'm sure it's something insulting, fake and/or worthless anyway.
Yoda, I think you had RML's hopes up; now they're dashed.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Actually pro-choicers argue a heck of a lot and call each other hateful names just like pro-lifers do.

reply from: Rosalie

I have told you several times before that I have done that. I don't care that YOU don't think I did it the way YOU think it should be done.
You just cannot cope with the fact that none of the pro-life lifes will change my mind. But that's your problem, not mine.
You give off that vibe.
You obviously miss high school - or at least this sort of, um, debating kind of implies that.
That's not how it came off. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt, of course, as this is the internet and the tone is often difficult to convey.
No, not babies. Zygotes, embryos and fetuses. There is a difference.
And I can't say I care that you consider abortion wrong. It just doesn't mean anything to me what you think about my reproductive choices.
It is first and foremost about her and about what she considers important or VITAL.
Of course not.
You need to understand this: what you are saying in this very sentence IS good but it is not what the majority of pro-lifers aims for. This is what pro-choicers do because one of our aims is to make contraception more available and educate people about their options, safe sex etc.
If all pro-lifers aimed for widely available contraception, real, comprehensive sex education etc., if all that mindless, fanatical effort to outlaw abortion was instead re-directed into helping to prevent the situation that may call for an abortion, the picture would be all kinds of different.
But this is not what pro-lifers do. Not the majority. Not 13 years ago, not now. Not those I observed in real life and not those I observed online. SURE, there are exceptions. There always are. But they are just that, exceptions.
If you want to outlaw abortion, if you want to judge women, make it impossible for them to obtain a legal abortion and dictate your reproductive choices to everyone then yes, you are.
Not that it is of any consequence to you. It's just what I think. Maybe you are the exception that will not mindlessly and fanatically insult women and try to outlaw abortion - maybe you are one of the exceptions. Maybe not. The movement as a whole fits the descriptions. I do hope and believe that there are people who are different from this. It would be really frightening if there weren't.
Cool, then we want the same.
It will never be possible - even if everyone was using 100% reliable contraception all the time, there will always be rape, defects and health complications.
But if this is your goal, good for you. Maybe you will help to make a difference. I hope you will.
I think this is one of the reasons, yeah. But look around. It's your precious pro-lifers preaching about marriage and threatening people with eternal damnation if they dare have sex for other reasons than to procreate. Sad but true.
Again, we definitely agree on that.
I honestly don't think that abortion is for everyone.
I believe there should be much better health care plans as well as job opportunities, more paid maternity leave, cheaper daycare... there are countries in Europe that have months or even years of paid maternity leave so the moms could actually properly bond with their children, so they could enjoy being mothers, instead of having to go to work a few weeks after the baby is born because if they didn't they would end up on a street.
Not in what you have written, no. But in other things we probably are. And surely you MUST realize that the opinions you have just cited here in this paragraph are not what the majority of pro-lifers supports, right?
Maybe if there were more pro-lifers thinking along these lines, there would be a better chance of lessening the number of unwanted pregnancies.
But around here, the phrase "lessening the number of unwanted pregnances" is like the worst curse word.
I told you in the other post that I have two Master's degrees and given that and my other achievements, I'm obviously educated and very intelligent. And I don't understand your size remark? What does one's size have to do with anything? I'm size 2, does it mean that if you are size 0 or 00, you are somehow better or smarter or what not?
I honestly didn't get what you meant by this.
That WAS condescending - on purpose. To illustrate that this was exactly how your last two posts felt to me. And I also admit that I was pretty frustrated yesterday because I seemed to be unable to get my point across and I seriously don't think you are dumb and I just couldn't see a reason why you shouldn't understand what I was saying.
I do find some of your attitude patronizing and insulting. I know a few people who switched the sides from pro-life to pro-choice. And as much as I wish everyone would do that, I know that 1) it is not feasible, 2) just because a few people came to their senses and recognized what is wrong with pro-life and decided to help women instead, it does not mean that every single pro-lifer will eventually do the same. But yesterday you just kept insisting that just because you changed your mind, it somehow makes ME to be in the same place you were a year ago and that I will eventually change my mind, too.
I tried to refrain from irony and condescencion in this post - and I hope I got my point across this time.

reply from: Rosalie

No fetus has a right to be born.
And no imaginary fetal right to life trumps MY right to make decisions that directly concern my body.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I deleted any of the comments in here if they had a bad tone - including some of the responses I initially typed up.
That's not how it came off.
I'm sorry.
It is.
No, not babies. Zygotes, embryos and fetuses. There is a difference.
Baby is a perfectly acceptable term for the in-utero child. Zygote/embryo/fetus is more accurate in terms of describing the age of said child, but that's irrelevant when I'm not talking about a specific term of pregnancy.
The moment you concieve, you have already reproduced. I have no problem with your reproductive choices, which include birth control, abstinence and condoms. I do have a problem with the parenting choice of abortion.
It is first and foremost about her and about what she considers important or VITAL.
There are a lot of things in life I cannot do just because I consider them "VITAL".
Of course not.
You need to understand this: what you are saying in this very sentence IS good but it is not what the majority of pro-lifers aims for.
You need to understand that I do not represent the majority of pro-lifers, which is why I'm offended and upset that you keep lumping me up with them. I think that's something you need to realise. Not ALL pro-lifers are these terrible monsters you make them out to be. I for one am not. And I had to "get over" the negative stereotype too, because I knew that in my heart I felt the unborn deserved life. But I also HATE what some pro-lifers stand for; I argue with people on this site all the time about their extremism!!! I think they are women-hating, mysogynistic baby-humpers, to use pro-choice descriptions. And those descriptions still FIT for some pro-lifers. Or should I say anti-choicers, anti-women, pro-fetus people.
And pro-lifers
And if all pro-choicers had the same opinions... but they don't and they never will. As I said, I approach my pro-life goals from the viewpoint of the woman. SHE is the person I have to convince in order to save her child. No one else.
So why talk about the extremists? I don't talk about pro-choicers as if they are all pro-abortion. I don't say that all pro-choicers approve of elective late term abortions because I know not all of them do.
If you want to outlaw abortion, if you want to judge women,
Those are two completely different things. Do I want to make ELECTIVE abortion illegal? Eventually, I want to see it taken off the books simply because it is completely unnecessary; because women have so few accidental pregnancies and becuase those who do become pregnant have the aid they need to give their child life.
As for judging women, no I don't want to do that. I would have gone to law school if I did.
As I said before, if they are pregnant they have already reproduced. Their child, their offspring, already exists. They are not preventing its existence through abortion. They are killing a child that is already here. I do not want to restrict reproductive rights. Every woman has the right to prevent pregnancy and to not get pregnant.
I also do not want to make it impossible for women to obtain legal abortions. If the woman is dying and abortion is the only solution of course she should be able to get one. There are many medical reasons a woman could need an abortion. Needs though, are different from wants. A woman who is dying needs an abortion. A woman who is poor does not need an abortion, she needs money and aid.
I am. Why on earth would I insult a woman? That's not going to win her over; that's going to make her mad. I HATE pro-fetus people who insult women. They're so stupid. They think that insulting these women is somehow going to save babies and they're dead wrong. Their hate, in fact, may have killed several children. Yoda himself may be the cause of several dead children that I can specifically talk about. When I first met him online, his hateful demeanor spurred me even further into the pro-choice movement, and I encouraged several women online to abort due to their situations. They did. I'm sure the hate of others on this forum have spurred other women to abort or encourage abortion.
And as a whole, the pro-choice movement fits the description of pro-death... but I refuse to use that name to describe all pro-choicers. I also refuse to use the phrase pro-abortion.
Cool, then we want the same.
Except that I want to prevent unwanted pregnancies, not to end the pregnancies once they exist.
Of course accidental pregnancy will never go away, but I feel there is a lot we can do to work towards that goal.
I hope so too.
I think this is one of the reasons, yeah. But look around. It's your precious pro-lifers preaching about marriage and threatening people with eternal damnation if they dare have sex for other reasons than to procreate. Sad but true.
They are far from precious to me; they insult me daily. Tired old tale, but I despise many of their actions.
Again, we definitely agree on that.
I honestly don't think that abortion is for everyone.
No, it's definitely not; even as I encouraged one woman to abort, I (as a pro-choicer) told a few other women not to, because they seemed unsure and/or were doing it because of pressure from boyfriends/family. That's a recipie for regret.
That would be fantabulous!! Our country's rampant capitalistic attitude just doesn't work 100% of the time. I mean, look at these bailouts! Why should we bail out a car company and not, say... the 80 year old man I saw on the news who lost his life-long home? Where's my bailout money??
Not in what you have written, no. But in other things we probably are. And surely you MUST realize that the opinions you have just cited here in this paragraph are not what the majority of pro-lifers supports, right?
Like I said, I'm not a typical pro-lifer so I'm not going to be the same as them. They have their own demons to deal with.
I told you in the other post that I have two Master's degrees and given that and my other achievements, I'm obviously educated and very intelligent. And I don't understand your size remark? What does one's size have to do with anything? I'm size 2, does it mean that if you are size 0 or 00, you are somehow better or smarter or what not?
I honestly didn't get what you meant by this.
I was joking lol XD I felt like you'd called me a "silly little girl", and so I was refuting that in a joking manner, since I'm a rather small person in real life.
Like I said, I went through and deleted any comments I found offensive. No need to stoke the fire when we're both trying to put it out.

reply from: yoda

Once again, you have proven you don't have the mental capacity to understand sarcasm. Would you like to see another "non-working link"?
http://www.I

reply from: yoda

Pretty much, yeah.... but NON_PERSONS simply don't have the mental capacity to understand sarcasm, I'm afraid.

reply from: yoda

I'd say you spend about .01% of your time here doing the former, and 99.99% of your time doing the latter.
Ever hear of something called a "websearch"? (That's something that we prolifers use to find things on the web.)

reply from: yoda

I know...... sarcasm is just "above her pay grade", I'm afraid.

reply from: Danima

Does anyone have the stats for religious views on both the pro-life and pro-choice sides? Just being curious here...

reply from: Danima

Deism is a form of monotheism which many founders practiced which has no connection any of that.
Yes, many people believe quite silly things.
Again, look up deism. It is not a religion, but rather a viewpoint of it. In fact, so that its not too hard on you, I'll even give you the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
Now, look at your answers, and tell me, are you trying to stomp out opposition with immature and irrelevant remarks? Get to the facts, and acknowledge them.
I haven't admitted anything to you, but rather, provided you with the fact that 72% of the founders were CHRISTIAN, not deists. Therefore, the MAJORITY of the founders were Christian, debunking your prior comment, that the majority were deists. Not only that, but make up your mind - do you understand where I'm coming from or do you still think you have nothing to prove? Keep things in context, and read the entire post before you reply.
The deistic view on religion was indeed originally from the same origins as the monotheistic religions, as well as fideism. Early man believed to see God in everything, and when prophets arose, in their revelations as well.
And on a last note, why would the Creator need permission from his creation for his rights? He is above us, in form and existence. Would you try to get your dog's permission for the right to punish him for eating your pizza or for urinating in your bed? Or perhaps for the right to put him to sleep if he already was suffering internal bleeding?

reply from: JRH

This can be debated and is hotly among philosophers. Plus, I bet a lot I know more about deism than you.....
No majority buddy. Only the most important-Paine, Jefferson, Franklin etc.
So he deserves to be a tyrant because he created us?
The fact that you compare man to a dog says much about your thoughts on the value of man .....

reply from: Danima

The fact that you compare man to a dog says much about your thoughts on the value of man .....
On the contrary: if you look at the context in which I wrote that, you would see that I am comparing the relationship between God and man to the relationship between man and dog. Why? because the majority of pet owners love their pets, and they are in control of their pets. How about you read the post in its entirety?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

In any sense, the Muslim God,the Christian God, and the Jewish God are one and the same. In fact, every monotheistic religion has its basis on the one faith predating Jesus by several thousand years, since the beginning of Man, with the exception of those concentrated on the Devil, which is also derived from the same religion. I believe that this same God is that which most people believe in, though often differently. However, defending my religion is not pertinent to this thread, and so if you would like to hear that, we should begin another thread.
Your comments above are exactly what a Muslim would say. However, I see you quoting James and surmise that you may be Christian rather than Muslim.
From the Book of Job we see that Satan accuses man of not measuring up. We also learn that Satan is the Father of lies and a murderer. Quranic teachings seem to parallel Old Testament teachings in many respects. However, Old Testament and New Testament Scripture allow for mercy and forgiveness of sin. Satan would just plain like to find man guilty and have him executed. The Christian Scriptures say God is long-suffering and mericful, not desiring that anyone should perish. I propose to you that Allah is Satan masquerading as God. His true agenda is to bring men into conflict. This Jihad that he wants Muslims to fight will bring the world into a deadly conflict that leaves mankind extinct. The God of Christian Scripture wants no one taking up the sword in "His Cause" at this time. He doesn't want His creation to destroy each other. In his good time he will replace the kingdoms of man with the Kingdom of God. That will happen all at one time under Christ when he returns. He will not require that men kill each other to pave the way. John the Baptist was gentle. The Muslims have a horrible prophecy of the Judgment Day not coming until the trees and rocks say. "Oh Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me; come kill him." Rat poison is 99% good food and 1% killing agent. Poison's purpose is to trick and deceive with the goal of causing death. I propose to you that Islam is rat poison.

reply from: Danima

Well, here's the thing.
If God exists, he's an absent parent.
Basically he left a bunch of post-it notes stuck to the fridge with instructions on what to do while he was out and expected us to follow those instructions.
Several generations later, he's still not back and the kids (humanity) are arguing about:
- the meaning of the rules
- the correct interpretation/translation of the rules
- whether or not they are the real rules or new ones that another kid stuck on the fridge
- if there is any point in following the rules at all
- whether the rules are going to be enforced or not
- if God is ever going to come back and answer all these questions to clarify everything
- if this is all some kind of sick joke and there is no God and the rules are just the efforts of one kid to try control the others
So you can see the dilemma.
Of course, the sensible thing for any parent to do would be to come back, take care of the kids and explain everything.
Not leave them alone from age 5 and expect them to figure out everything on their own.
God is an absent parent.
Pro-lifers on here constantly bleat that you have a responsibility to care for life you create.
What about God then?
I appreciate your comment.
The tricky thing about this comparison is that God is caring for the life he created, since the life he created was eternal life. I think that the post-its on the fridge, although a fantastic illustration, is not quite the situation. Rather, perhaps look at it like a parent with a child working on a school project. The parent wants the child to learn something through this project, and therefore does two things - leaves rules, tips, and guidelines to get the most out of it, and has a consequence determined by the grade of the work (referring to reward or punishment). Naturally, the parent wants the child to earn the reward, but he lets the child decide if he will work for it or not.
Permit me an answer to a personal question - what are your religious views, and if you happen to be Christian, what kind are you? I will take no offense if you refuse me.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Vexer is a hardcore atheist. Vexer is working on a transformation, I believe, from a he to a she.

reply from: Danima

In any sense, the Muslim God,the Christian God, and the Jewish God are one and the same. In fact, every monotheistic religion has its basis on the one faith predating Jesus by several thousand years, since the beginning of Man, with the exception of those concentrated on the Devil, which is also derived from the same religion. I believe that this same God is that which most people believe in, though often differently. However, defending my religion is not pertinent to this thread, and so if you would like to hear that, we should begin another thread.
Your comments above are exactly what a Muslim would say. However, I see you quoting James and surmise that you may be Christian rather than Muslim.
From the Book of Job we see that Satan accuses man of not measuring up. We also learn that Satan is the Father of lies and a murderer. Quranic teachings seem to parallel Old Testament teachings in many respects. However, Old Testament and New Testament Scripture allow for mercy and forgiveness of sin. Satan would just plain like to find man guilty and have him executed. The Christian Scriptures say God is long-suffering and mericful, not desiring that anyone should perish. I propose to you that Allah is Satan masquerading as God. His true agenda is to bring men into conflict. This Jihad that he wants Muslims to fight will bring the world into a deadly conflict that leaves mankind extinct. The God of Christian Scripture wants no one taking up the sword in "His Cause" at this time. He doesn't want His creation to destroy each other. In his good time he will replace the kingdoms of man with the Kingdom of God. That will happen all at one time under Christ when he returns. He will not require that men kill each other to pave the way. John the Baptist was gentle. The Muslims have a horrible prophecy of the Judgment Day not coming until the trees and rocks say. "Oh Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me; come kill him." Rat poison is 99% good food and 1% killing agent. Poison's purpose is to trick and deceive with the goal of causing death. I propose to you that Islam is rat poison.
You are correct, that I am in fact a Christian. However, I disagree with you on Allah.
The Islamic race is believed to be descended from Ishmael, Abraham's first son, of Hagar, the Egyptian handmaid [Gen 16]. When God catches her running away from her mistress, she is told to return, and that Ishmael will be multiplied greatly. Therefore, since this is Hagar's personal experience of God, she will teach Ishmael accordingly, that God is harsh and punishing. However, though she is right in saying that God will not defer from punishing acts that so need justice, she is unaware of his great love. Know that, however, it was difficult for Old Testament believers to know God's love as we know it today, because we were not worthy to be before God prior to Christ's sacrifice. I also believe that Jihad is not common to the majority of the Muslims, but rather that murder is taught as evil.
Yes, God is merciful, but part of mercy is justice, and part of justice is punishment. Our God is a loving and merciful God, but he is also a just God. He lets us choose - him or chaos. If we choose chaos despite all that he did and does for us, he will respect our decisions.
With that said, I must agree with the fact that the devil is the great deceiver, and that he does become personified in other gods. However, I firmly believe that the Trinity, Allah, and Yahweh are all the same God, and therefore not the devil.

reply from: Danima

Again, my point was that the parent wants the child to work hard on the project and learn the most from it. In other words, to work on it himself. However, the parent is not abandoning the child. It gave it some tips, rules, and guidelines. For example, there is the internet for the student, and there is a Bible for the Christian. The Christian also has Sacred Tradition, conscience, priests, theologians, saints and their works, etc. At the end of the project, the child will deliver to the parent its work. The parent will grade it, and deliver the said reward/punishment.
As to whether or not the reward will be received or not, or if it even exists, is completely in faith and in love of the child towards the parent that he believes his words to be true.

reply from: scopia19822

"The issue with that is that the child has no guarantee that they will actually receive the reward if they do the work, or if the reward even exists.
Or if the parent even exists, since the parent isn't actually there."
Vex I prefer to err on the side of caution and believe their is a God and an after life or reward then to believe their is not and die and possibly find out I was wrong. What do I have to lose ? If I believe there is a God and die and that is the end of my existiance I have not lost anything as I wont be aware of nothing.
"Let's be blunt.
There isn't any actual evidence for the existence of God.
For all we know, the Bible is the mad rantings of guys who spent too much time in the desert sun (some of the Bible certainly reads that way). "
There is also no evidence that God doesnt exist. It is simply a matter of "faith " which ever way you look at the existance or non existance of God.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I know...... sarcasm is just "above her pay grade", I'm afraid.
Actually, sarcasm does not "read" very well to me. I can hear it in people's voices but it usually doesn't come through in written words. I definitely take a lot of things the wrong way because I cannot hear them. It's part of my learning disability, I guess.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Danima said:
However, I firmly believe that the Trinity, Allah, and Yahweh are all the same God.
The trinity is some three in one belief. I reject the trinity entirely. It is my belief that the Father is greater than Christ. That Christ did not know when His return will be, but the Father only. Jesus always did what pleased the Father. I am aware of two distinct and separate beings in the God family: the Father and His Son. The Son always obeys His Father. The Father decided to share His throne with Christ, with whom He was well pleased. If we overcome as Jesus did, Christ will also share His throne with us.
As for allah, well, I've read the Quran. His attributes are the opposite of Yahweh/Jehovah.

reply from: scopia19822

"Scorpia; but which god is the true god? There are hundreds, if not thousands of deities.
You're not erring on the side of caution, you've simply arbitrarily picked one and damned yourself in the eyes of most of the others.
What's worse, the wrath of one god, or hundreds?"
There is only one God, even polytheistic religions usually have a one supreme being above the other gods/goddeses. You choose not to believe in God that is your choice, not my place to judge or condemn you. However I choose to believe in God, if he "doesnt" exist , when I die I will simply cease to exist and will have lost nothing by believing. If it was not for my faith I would not have gotten through alot of the hell and tough times I have been through. As someone says in their signature they would rather live my life believing in God and find out there wasnt one, than to not believe and find out their is one.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Bump.
I would vote for the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He gets the most important issue. He says He is love. He says the most important thing is to become love. The Law is built on the requirement to love God and man. Love is the greatest attribute.
I personally believe He is pretty good at understanding how man walks and where events will lead. Peace and security are some of the greatest aspects of God's Government. But God says man is a murderer and eventully he'll kill everyone. I think he's right. He says man's murderous attitude must be changed.
Prophecy says the endtime "Roman Empire" will be instrumental. I believe I see a day not to far into the future when all the nations around the Mediterranean reunite. For now, just the European nations are reconstituting a portion of the Roman Empire. I believe Jauary 1, 2009 is a big day for them. I believe the Bible was "insightful" to understand these things. The Bible was already correct in saying Israel would be regathered into a nation in the endtimes. I believe it will be correct about the rebirth of the "Roman Empire"; a political union that many politicians find useful and have in recent past (Charlemagne, Napolean, Hitler, Mussolini).

reply from: scopia19822

"If you want a loving religion, you're much better off with Buddhism then."
Buddhism is also a non theistic relgion. They dont believe in a deity per se like other religions.

reply from: scopia19822

It doesn't require a deity, which is part of the beauty of it. They don't need to use anthropomorphism to describe the essence of their spirituality.
You're still avoiding the issue though:
How do you know you picked the correct God?
If you got it wrong, it could mean deep, deep trouble for your immortal soul, or reincarnation prospects.
I believe there is ONE God , whether you call him Yahweh, Allah, thor etc. All religions IMHO lead to the same God. He manifests himself in different ways to different groups of people.

reply from: scopia19822

Which directly contradicts your own Christian doctrine (i.e. that if you worship any other God, you are sinning and will go to Hell).
Now how do you know that there is one god, not thousands of gods?
How do you know you are correct? What evidence do you have?
My faith Vex, which if you dont have you would not understand. My faith is all I need. How are you so sure there is not a GOd? What proof do you have?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It doesn't require a deity, which is part of the beauty of it. They don't need to use anthropomorphism to describe the essence of their spirituality.
You're still avoiding the issue though:
How do you know you picked the correct God?
If you got it wrong, it could mean deep, deep trouble for your immortal soul, or reincarnation prospects.
I believe there is ONE God , whether you call him Yahweh, Allah, thor etc. All religions IMHO lead to the same God. He manifests himself in different ways to different groups of people.
That's exactly how I believe!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NASB - New American Standard)
Is John 3:36 not clear?
There are other verses that say there is only one Way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ.
Only by obeying Christ is life possible. Christ authored the Bible and is the God of the Old and New Testaments that worked directly with people.
Jude 5 (ESV - English Standard Version) : "Now I want to remind you brothers, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."
I Corinthians 10:4-5 "....all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness."
As author of the Bible Christ is called the "Word". He is also that "Spiritual Rock" that went with Israel in the wilderness.
We must obey Christ who accompanies us on our spiritual exodus out of slavery to sin through the wilderness to the promised Kingdom.

reply from: Cecilia

Fear keeps you in belief. Why? I would rather die and have questioned the existence of a god that CAN'T or WON'T do anything and who inspires hatred in followers (augustine, Godslaw, faithman, many more).
Concerned parent kept bringing it up, in the Bible god says he'll answer your prayers, you pray for no abortions, hasn't answered it yet. Or won't, or can't, either way you lose.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Fear keeps you in belief. Why? I would rather die and have questioned the existence of a god that CAN'T or WON'T do anything and who inspires hatred in followers (augustine, Godslaw, faithman, many more).
Concerned parent kept bringing it up, in the Bible god says he'll answer your prayers, you pray for no abortions, hasn't answered it yet. Or won't, or can't, either way you lose.
Why would God answer scopia's prayers? The Bible says one must believe that God is a rewarder of those who seek him and diligently do His Will. Scopia says the Bible may be the rantings of a man gone mad in the sun. The fact is, this time is for man's work. Next to nobody "really" believes in God. They don't obey Him. God is clear, he will not answer the prayers of sinners. But the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. But when Christ comes, will he find faith?
Hatred? Actually, I'm a creampuff. I feel compassionate even for some of the worst of characters. I guess maybe I do feel hatred for a Hitler, Mao or Stalin who are cold, calculating and responsible for millions of deaths. I must speak out against the excessive seeking of personal sexual gratification and other acts and I consider that the correct thing to do, I don't label it hatred. I believe those who abort or engage in sodomy are commiting reprehensible acts. I'll tell those people they are very very wrong.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (NASB - New American Standard)
Is John 3:36 not clear?
There are other verses that say there is only one Way to God, and that is through Jesus Christ.
Only by obeying Christ is life possible. Christ authored the Bible and is the God of the Old and New Testaments that worked directly with people.
Jude 5 (ESV - English Standard Version) : "Now I want to remind you brothers, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."
I Corinthians 10:4-5 "....all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness."
As author of the Bible Christ is called the "Word". He is also that "Spiritual Rock" that went with Israel in the wilderness.
We must obey Christ who accompanies us on our spiritual exodus out of slavery to sin through the wilderness to the promised Kingdom.
Obeying Christ is the only Way to be saved, period!

reply from: Danima

Well, since the only credible person who called himself God would be Jesus (credible as far as his miracles and other works, as recorded in Scripture), the parent would be in fact Jesus, and since Jesus did walk on Earth, then the child (humanity) did see the parent. All of the other people who promised things did not conquer death, thus stopped dead short of God, and therefore are impostors, like strangers trying to pick up a child from school by saying that he is a friend of his father's. This is of course assuming you believe in the credibility of the Bible, but I know that you don't, since you are an atheist.
The Bible, as you may know, was put together into the current list of books by Pope Damasus in 382 AD. These books included in the Bible were then translated from Greek and Hebrew into Latin, which became the Latin Vulgate Bible. This is declared by the Catholic Church (who put the Bible together) to be the only authentic and official version. Therefore, it has not been translated over and over again, if you use this version. However, most of us, myself included, do not fluently understand ecclesiastical Latin, so the Douay-Rheims version was published in 1582 AD from the Vulgate, and diligently compared to the Hebrew and Greek versions to ensure authenticity. Therefore, the ancient documents of historical fact are put into the Bible without changing their information.
Historical fact? Yes. We can start with Noah's flood. Every culture old enough to be approximate to this time period records a large and devastating flood. Even the Chinese, who are said to be the most anti-religious, have this in common. In fact, their word for ship is 'vessel with eight mouths'. The vessel is the ark, and the eight mouths are Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives. There is also a scientific theory supporting this. It is called the Hydroplate Theory, and you can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6lw9wSVXcw
Over and above this, I must humbly admit that I am not prepared to defend the credibility of the Bible further in this way, and so I believe that our discussion must end here. I appreciate your argument, and hope to come up with an answer for that soon. Thank you for a debate well spoken.

reply from: Danima

Interesting belief. As for Christ not knowing when his return will be, lets look at God. God is omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving. Now, if he is omnipotent, then he has the power to decide if he wants to know the hour of his coming. Therefore, he is still God, and still equal to God the Father, who does know that hour. As to the Son always doing his Father's will, it is out of love that he did so. God is love, and love is sacrifice. For this reason, the Son abandoned Himself to the will of his Father, as well as for love of us.
As for the Holy Spirit, see Genesis 1:2 "...and the spirit of God moved over the waters." Jesus is referred to as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit (the third person of the Holy Trinity) is the Spirit of God. He is also known as the Paraclete, as in John 14:16 "And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever." His presence at Jesus' baptism: [Matt. 3:16] "And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him." We partake of God's divine nature through him, [2 Peter 3:4] "By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature..." And finally, in Mathew 28:19, Jesus Himself said: "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." There is the Trinity in Scripture.
Should you want more information or proof, see http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/15047A.TXT which includes the Dogma, Proofs, and Doctrines.
As for Allah, I will have to read the Qur'an, and perhaps the Sunnah. Until then, I am not qualified to debate this.

reply from: Danima

Actually, I have: (impostors of the parent)
Only Jesus had risen from the dead, and had therefore proven to be the true God, and therefore, the true parent. As I said before, if you do not regard the Bible in this proof, then I cannot continue further in this example, because there is no other way of clearly defining the parent. However, in this we see that even in other religious books of belief, there is no other than Jesus who raised Himself up with His own power.

reply from: Danima

Alright, if you wont accept my previous answer...
The child, in my opinion, should follow the set of instructions that he got first, and be open to specifications made to those instructions, yet be wary of completely different instructions altogether or complete revisions.
Correct me if I am wrong, but those are all polytheistic religions, are they not? Therefore, the parent idea does not strike the same chord as these.

reply from: Danima

Now you are making your own rules. I said the first he was given, with proper care. This means that of Adam and Eve, who walked with God, and passed on His instructions through the generations through oral tradition until Moses began to write it. From then on, it was passed on as Sacred Scripture, until God walked on Earth. From thence, there was Sacred Tradition in addition to Sacred Scripture. All of these 'new' parts were in fact clarifications and specifications of the first set of instructions and laws.

reply from: Danima

He should choose the one he knows started before all of the others.
Now, I strongly believe that a 15 year old would not bother, since he had "gotten along just fine without religion" (as he would say).
On top of that, why did you change the original point of pregnancy is not an accident to whatever point you are making about religion?

reply from: Danima

Christianity as such can be said to be new, I suppose. However, if you look at where Christianity grew from, you would find that it came from the Jews, who grew from the Hebrews, going back to Abraham, Noah, and Adam. The faith that began this chain is being continued through Christianity, and completed through Christ. Therefore, it is the same faith, and has its origins dating back to the first man.
Please cite your source for the earth mother goddess.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Danima, Vexer was banned from these forums under the username Vexing. She is really best put on ignore.

reply from: nancyu

You should use the good sense that God gave you.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It doesn't require a deity, which is part of the beauty of it. They don't need to use anthropomorphism to describe the essence of their spirituality.
You're still avoiding the issue though:
How do you know you picked the correct God?
If you got it wrong, it could mean deep, deep trouble for your immortal soul, or reincarnation prospects.
I believe there is ONE God , whether you call him Yahweh, Allah, thor etc. All religions IMHO lead to the same God. He manifests himself in different ways to different groups of people.
That's exactly how I believe!
We must be imitators of Christ. Like Christ, we all go through life learning how to have empathy. The Bible says Christ has empathy for us because he went through the same experiences we do. God is calling individuals to positions like Christ has. We have to go down the same trail. We have to learn to have empathy for other human beings. We have to live the human experience. Those who are called and have gone through this process will be given a position helping and serving people in the Kingdom of God; which is a Government and society soon coming to this earth. The saints must overcome even as Christ overcame; this is the only Way to receive a place (eternal life) and position (crown, rulership, share of Christ's throne and authority).
Thor wouldn't get you there. Neither will Buddha or Allah.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Buddha served other human beings. Also, he was always human, never claimed himself as anything other than that. Buddha is NOT a deity. He is a man, just like Ghandi or Bush. Buddha lived a VERY human life, but you clearly don't know anything about him. He was not and never claimed to be a God.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Only Christ has the correct educational program that we need.
Buddha has some game plan to get one to nirvana. Perhaps you believe this is wrong and Buddhism is beneficial in other ways.
There is nothing that stacks up to Christianity. The goal is to create a son of God. To create one who is profitable for God's use and lives peacfully and helpfully. Christianity is about developing into "all that one can be" and being allowed eternal life.
Other "help" programs are insufficient. Only Christ's program saves. Christ is the ONLY Way to God. One MUST walk in Christ's steps to be saved.

reply from: Danima

Now I'm just curious, but Vexer, you say you do not believe in God because there is no proof of Him. What proof do you have that he does not exist?

reply from: Danima

None.
But then, I don't have proof that these don't exist either:
Elves,
Goblins,
Smurfs,
Gryphons,
Invisible Pink Unicorns,
The Flying Spaghetti Monster,
The Tuatha De Danu,
Wombles,
Leprechauns,
Chupacabras,
Jackalopes,
Sasquatches,
The Loch Ness Monster,
Cthulhu,
The Tooth Fairy,
Santa Claus,
Jack Frost,
Et, etc, etc,
Am I supposed to believe in all these simply because the is no evidence that they DON'T exist?
I'm assuming you believe in all of these things, because you can't prove that they do not exist?
Now, now, lets avoid hostility. You seem to be a very reasonable person, and as such, you know that I would not believe in these things. And no, I never said that you should believe in these things because we have no proof that they exist.
Now, since you answered that you had no proof that God did not exist, then you must now realize you are just like me. You believe something because you have faith in it. You cannot prove it, and neither can I. In this respect, we are the same.

reply from: Nulono

Agreed. Absence of evidence against is not evidence in favor of. Also, unfalsifiability is enough to get something disqualified in science.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Only Christ has the correct educational program that we need.
Buddha has some game plan to get one to nirvana. Perhaps you believe this is wrong and Buddhism is beneficial in other ways.
There is nothing that stacks up to Christianity. The goal is to create a son of God. To create one who is profitable for God's use and lives peacfully and helpfully. Christianity is about developing into "all that one can be" and being allowed eternal life.
Other "help" programs are insufficient. Only Christ's program saves. Christ is the ONLY Way to God. One MUST walk in Christ's steps to be saved.
I did not say a single thing you accused me of saying just now.

reply from: Danima

No, think about it. I have faith in the belief of the existence of God. You have faith in the lack of the existence of God. Neither of us have sufficient proof to the other that we are holding the true stance.

reply from: Danima

No, think about it. I have faith in the belief of the existence of God. You have faith in the lack of the existence of God. Neither of us have sufficient proof to the other that we are holding the true stance.
Don't skirt the issues at hand:
If you believe in God, which cannot be proved, then why do you not believe in all other things which cannot be proved?
Your stance is logically inconsistent.
Mine is logically consistent; if something has no evidence for its existence, then why would I believe in it?
If I tell you that there are space giants living in the sun, would you believe it?
Are you serious? You lack logic... Just because I believe in God does not mean I have to believe in fictional characters. Whether or not others believe in them is up to them. Ever heard of the danger of extrapolation? I wager you have a favorite food, but I cannot conclude that you love all food.
On top of that, you are discarding the very idea that you cannot reconcile with: you and I believe in ideas we cannot prove to each other.

reply from: ProInformed

Two of my living children were born by C-section under general anesthesia - and according to the nurses and pediatrician attending them, they were both born crying and moving, and they did have normal APGAR scores at birth.
Telling women that the anesthesia is strong enough to either:
eliminate the baby's ability to feel pain
put the baby to sleep
or even kill the baby,
before the baby is killed by the fatal violence of abortion,
IS A LIE that anesthesiologists publicly refuted when the parital-birth abortion technique was being debated.

reply from: faithman

No, think about it. I have faith in the belief of the existence of God. You have faith in the lack of the existence of God. Neither of us have sufficient proof to the other that we are holding the true stance.
Don't skirt the issues at hand:
If you believe in God, which cannot be proved, then why do you not believe in all other things which cannot be proved?
Your stance is logically inconsistent.
Mine is logically consistent; if something has no evidence for its existence, then why would I believe in it?
If I tell you that there are space giants living in the sun, would you believe it?
The evidence for God is all around you. The fact of creation demands that there had to be a creator. One can look at a house and try to deny that a carpenter built it, but the evidence of the house is testiment that he built it even if he is not still present to testify of the fact. Now some stupid little smart ass can try to deny the existance of a carpenter, and claim that the house just "evolved" and built itself. but it don't change the fact that a pile of wood can not build itself into a house. It takes an energy exchanger in the form of a carpenter to build it. There is absolutely no logic in denying the existance of God. You would have to ignore the laws of physics, and the inteligent design of all things, and the writings of men like Albert Einstien. There is a multitude of logical evidence of a creator. Only a stupid little pro deasth punk would deny it. Professing yourself to be wise, you have only shown to be exstremly illogical, willingly ignorant, and very stupid.

reply from: JRH

Why? Does the fact god exists mean that he has to have a creator? What makes god different in this regard?
How do the laws of physics prove god exists?
Prove that all things are actually intelligently designed. So far it sounds like you have no logical basis for the belief it is other than you own incredulity, and an argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy.
...who most certainly did not believe in a personal god and said so explicitly.
No, there really isn't.

reply from: Rosalie

So anesthesia magically affects the woman but not the fetus? Wow, great news for pregnant women anywhere, ProInformed just "proved" that what affects the mother does not affect the fetus, therefore the moms can now drink, smoke and use any and every kind of medication because it's not like it will affect the fetus! Thanks, I'm sure everyone will see the light now.
</sarcasm>

reply from: dani0710

I am going to start off by telling you from expierience you will regret it the rest of your life... theres not a day that goes by that I dont think about my baby.. my situation was very confusing and i was terrified.. I have nightmares and thoughts about it often however it has gotten easier to deal with.. everytime i look at a baby i wonder what my child would have looked like and what it would have grown up to be.. dont let your fears about something that hasnt even happened determine your childs future.. life is an amazing thing and if i could go back and do it all over again i would NEVER have went to the clinic that day and that Dr would have NEVER taken my little boy or girl away from me.. i still have my ultrasound and pray everyday that God gives me another chance to do it the right way keep praying and if you need any advice PLEASE write me there are TOO MANY options.. please dont go through what i went through
Sincerely,
A concerned Stranger that cares

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Two of my living children were born by C-section under general anesthesia - and according to the nurses and pediatrician attending them, they were both born crying and moving, and they did have normal APGAR scores at birth.
Telling women that the anesthesia is strong enough to either:
eliminate the baby's ability to feel pain
put the baby to sleep
or even kill the baby,
before the baby is killed by the fatal violence of abortion,
IS A LIE that anesthesiologists publicly refuted when the parital-birth abortion technique was being debated.
Why were you given general anesthesia instead of an epidural, not just once, but TWICE? This is very unusual because normally the surgeon and anesthesiologist prefer to have an awake mother and an undrugged fetus.

reply from: Danima

My logic is flawless.
If you believe in one thing that has no evidence for existence, then logically you would believe in many (or all) things which have no evidence for existing.
God is just as plausible as Cthulhu or Santa.
Ok, lets play your game. PROVE that I would logically believe in many or all (between which you were implying all) things that have no evidence of existence, if I believe in God, of whose existence you have not yet been convinced of.

reply from: Yuuki

Old posts are STILL old, and Vexer is STILL gone.

reply from: Teresa18

Excellent point, but Vexer has been banned, so your question will likely not be answered (by Vexer anyway).

reply from: yoda

True, and vexer may be answering question right here today under a new name.... who knows?


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