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Fetal Pain

By 8 weeks

by: ChristianLott

http://abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp

by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke

CHAPTER 14

FETAL PAIN

YES AND BY 8 WEEKS

reply from: SueYu

My abortion was performed at 5 weeks. Thus, by your linked articles, an embryo/fetus at 5 weeks feels nothing because the thalamus is not yet formed at that time.

reply from: ChristianLott

Yep.

My babies were murdered at 14 weeks.

Murdered right in time for Christmas.

I would have given my life for my children, think I'd be complaining about some stupid rape?

reply from: SueYu

Why didn't you, then?

No, evidently not, because it has never happened to you, so you can nonchalantly brush it off as you do. But if you had been train-raped by two guys for several hours, I think you'd feel differently today.

reply from: Skippy

How do you do that?

I think maybe you should have told your lover right up front that you would lay down your life for your children. It might have made a difference.

reply from: Amy

Why didn't you, then?

No, evidently not, because it has never happened to you, so you can nonchalantly brush it off as you do. But if you had been train-raped by two guys for several hours, I think you'd feel differently today.

I'm sorry for what happened to you...it was not only wrong but, I am certain, horrifying on many levels. That being said, and being a survivor of the same without the pregnancy, I still cannot see the benefit you found in aborting your own child. First you let these men take your safety center from you and then you allow them, and your rage at them, to take away your own child? I honestly don't understand that.

Did it ever strike you that perhaps your child was gifted to you to relieve you of the horrible wrong done?

I guess it's a matter of mindset or perception. I have a girlfriend who was raped, beaten almost beyond recognition and became pregnant as a result...she opted not to kill her child. Today her daughter is in college...they are the best of friends...they so mirror each other in behavior and sweetness. Over the years I had not seen one ounce of hestitation in loving her child completely...and I was compelled to ask...do you ever look at her and think of that night? Her response has always been...I think of the night she was born, the first time she said Momma, etc...who would have time with all that joy to give a second thought to something so inconsequential? She never had to go to therapy for residual internal scars, never expressed the fears that so many rape victims seem to clutch on to. She just saw her daughter as a gift to take away any suffering she may have undergone...and the gift won.

I guess it depends on who you want to give more power to...someone who was intent on destruction and pain...or someone who would look to you in only love. This may sound harsh...but I simply cannot reconcile how a woman would feel empowered by killing her own child because someone raped her. It's letting him kill part of you twice.

reply from: SueYu

You're joking, right??

I was supposed to nurture this "life" that was forced upon me in my womb, then give birth to it, and then love it for the rest of my life? When each time I looked upon it, I would be reminded from whence it came? What kind of animal its father was? This is a gift to you?

It was damnation to me. Had I been forced to have the child, and had I lived through it, I would've left it at the hospital without a second thought or backward glance.

If some women are able to love the seed of their rapist, that's them. It isn't me.

reply from: Hereforareason

Sue Yu what if you had been a child concieved through rape? Would you rather be dead, or would you be thankfull to a Mom that gave you life. Even if you live in an adopted home.

Amber

reply from: SueYu

If I had been a child conceived through rape, and I had known that I was, I would live a life of shame and humiliation, knowing that I was forced upon my mother through an act of brutality, and that she had not the will to terminate my life before I had been born.

It is very likely that I would need lifetime assistance to deal with the psychological impact of the above.

reply from: yoda

"Shame and humiliation" because of what your father did? No reasonable person would hold you responsible for that, so why would you?

reply from: SueYu

That's just the way I am, Yodavater. I would consider myself the product of exactly what it was...a heinous crime perpetrated against my mother. If she had been forced to lead a life of poverty, illness and hardship because of me, so much more the hard for me it would be to bear.

Yodavater, all persons walking on this earth are not required to think like you do, you know.

reply from: sarah

Not to be rude, but I hope you are recieving psychological assistance even now.
Your prejudice against a certain segment of society (born children of rape) should be disturbing to you, your bitterness twoards what happened to you, if true is understandable. But, even that can be helped.
And again, your obvious dis-taste of people who were born of rape is disturbing.
If I were one, I'd shudder to be in your presence.

reply from: SueYu

Then it is fortunate for you that you are not in my presence.

I do not wish them ill. I just do not feel comfortable associating with them. That is my prerogative, is it not?

reply from: sarah

That's where you're wrong, in a very real sense I am in your presence, it's just not bodily.

Yes, all people who hold prejudices are free not to associate with those who they see as unfit.

reply from: SueYu

Feel free to pretend I am not here if my presence irks your belief system. Some of your posts sound as if you have more sympathy for the attacker than for the those they attack.

Sarah, you don't mind too much if, considering all that I've been through, that I choose not to knowingly associate with:

1) men who brutalize and rape women
2) children of men who brutalize and rape women

...do you? I mean, let me know if you do, and I'll surely bend to your will.

All of us choose not to do certain things, or not to associate with certain people. For various reasons. My reasoning should be plain as the nose on your face, but even then, it is not.

I do not consider the spawn of a brutal sexual assault as a "blessing", a "gift from God", or a "bundle of joy".

I hope that is now clear for you.

reply from: sarah

Oh, it's perfectly clear what you think, Sue Yu. I was not questioning that.

I also see you have a bit of a taste for putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about not associating with "men who brutalize and rape women", but you knew that. And do let me know where I gave any sympathy to the attackers.

You need not bend to anyone's will, so how about lightening up on the drama, okay?

Naturally, people do refrain from associating with certain people, but it usually isn't for the obvious predudical reasons you have sited.
You refrain from associating with people who were born of rape, these people are perfectly innocent of their circumstances. Note, I have not said anything about the "men who brutalize and rape women". I hope that is now clear to you, as well.

I think we've highjacked this thread, and to Allizdog I apologize.

reply from: SueYu

For me, associating with their children, is associating with them. For you, it is not. I don't control you. You don't control me.

By instantly questioning whether or not I was even attacked and near-murdered, you spit in the face of every assault victim who ever lived.

When you do...so shall I.

I'll say it yet again. Given all that I've gone through, being in the presence of children of men who brutalize and rape women makes me feel quite uncomfortable. Like homosexuals make the "Christian Right" feel uncomfortable. Using only an analogy here, but one that you should understand.

reply from: ChristianLott

How do you do that?

I think maybe you should have told your lover right up front that you would lay down your life for your children. It might have made a difference.

I didn't? Begging her and telling her I'd do anything to keep the baby even accepting her ultimatum not enough? Still don't understand?

If only I had Skippy there to save my children's lives....

But I don't remember asking Skippy.

I asked (lawyer?) SueYu.

Dodging your threatening comment, Sue?

What did you mean with that statement?

reply from: Skippy

You're correct. You didn't ask me. I didn't intend to intrude in your personal tragedy, and I'm sorry you took it that way. It wasn't how it was meant.

reply from: ChristianLott

'Intrude' all you want, Skip. I just want a response from the one who made the comment.

reply from: Tam

CL, what threatening comment? Do I have to donate money to a pro-life group? Was it veiled ($1) or direct ($5)? Point it out to me so I can see for myself. Thanks

P.S. Oh, was it "Why didn't you, then?" Hmm... it was pretty bad, but I'm not sure I'd classify it as "threatening". Comments?

reply from: Amy

You're joking, right??

I was supposed to nurture this "life" that was forced upon me in my womb, then give birth to it, and then love it for the rest of my life? When each time I looked upon it, I would be reminded from whence it came? What kind of animal its father was? This is a gift to you?

It was damnation to me. Had I been forced to have the child, and had I lived through it, I would've left it at the hospital without a second thought or backward glance.

If some women are able to love the seed of their rapist, that's them. It isn't me.

The baby was yours...it was part of you...part of all those before you...your parents, grandparernts, etc... Did you hold yourself responsible in the rape? Did you hate yourself for what happened to you?

This was a human being entrusted to you for whatever reason...perhaps a test of your character. I can't tell you the real reasoning behind it...that's a bit beyond all of us, I believe. However, in your posts I notice you still hold great anger...your abortion certainly did not soften your suffering...rather it seems to have added to it.

"If some women are able to love the seed of their rapist, that's them. It isn't me."

They choose to take the journey with THEIR child. Again, this may sound harsh...but you decided to continue the journey with your rapist instead.

reply from: ChristianLott

If she's doomed to die in the process, such as?

So you say the majority of posters here are 'extremists'? Could it be that we've read the material and are well educated - which makes it easier for us to stand firm on solid morals....

--

Tam, it's not a threatening comment if she doesn't understand what she's talking about. If she does - it was.

reply from: Amy

"Feel free to pretend I am not here if my presence irks your belief system. Some of your posts sound as if you have more sympathy for the attacker than for the those they attack."

First, that was a particularly juvenile response. In any case, a child of rape is not simply a product of the attacker but the attacked. That you would look at it from such a myopic standpoint shows you haven't even tried to heal from your experience. My girlfriends daughter is anything but a product of an attack...she is the product of a loving mother...and her life and character shows that well.

"Sarah, you don't mind too much if, considering all that I've been through, that I choose not to knowingly associate with:

1) men who brutalize and rape women
2) children of men who brutalize and rape women

...do you? I mean, let me know if you do, and I'll surely bend to your will."

Again, more childish pouting speak. So a woman who is an abusive marriage should hate her children too, snuff them out, because her husband is a sick man?

"All of us choose not to do certain things, or not to associate with certain people. For various reasons. My reasoning should be plain as the nose on your face, but even then, it is not.

I do not consider the spawn of a brutal sexual assault as a "blessing", a "gift from God", or a "bundle of joy".

I hope that is now clear for you."

I think what is clear is that you are still enraged at a situation beyond you now. That you hold on to the anger with a fierce protectiveness...and I would present to you that perhaps you do so because you feel guilt and responsibility for some aspect of the rape and/or abortion. Harsh reality is just that...harsh...but you will never move forward as a full woman if you hold on to something that will only keep you steeped in fear and anger. Not all children of rape...children of strong women who saw love where you saw hate...are at fault for what happened to you.

You can only get by for so long having people not minding uncontrolled and destructive anger for "all that you've been through". Many women have been through that same thing, myself included, and I am blessed not to ever have held your perspective. Time to let go of the anger...and find your peace.

reply from: ChristianLott

Amy, she should hold onto her anger but at least direct it to her attackers - not an innocent child for some lame 'revenge' scenario that affected no one except an innocent pre born baby.

reply from: Tam

Fair enough. So Sue, did you mean it the way it sounded?

reply from: SueYu

I'm not a lawyer, "Christian"Lott.

You made the comment about "laying down your life for your babies". I merely asked "why didn't you, then?" You make the comment, then turn around and accuse *me* of "threatening" you? That is a pretty good manipulative tactic, there, I must admit.

I recall in one of your posts where I said that Jesus was referring to abortion when he said "the man who betrays the son of God would be better off not being born"...you said that Jesus was "referring to me", in other words, I am better off not being born.

I take that as a direct threat to my life. I would like to lodge a complaint against ChristianLott for that statement, please. Will it be heard, though? Will action be taken? Not likely. Only hardliners' "complaints" are heard here. No one else's.

Perhaps if I had given it birth and then left it at a bus stop, you would be hailing me as a "protector of life" instead of a "proabort".

I care not which you call me, actually.

No. It could very well be, however, that you read biased material and think you're well educated.

I've had to endure "juvenile", nasty, hardliner responses from most of you from my very first post. Do you think I care whether or not you think *my* posts are "juvenile"??

Exactly. Thank you.

I had an abortion following a pregnancy following a brutal rape and assault which left me near death. I am GLAD that I had the abortion. Relieved. Understand? The only reason I am "angry" is because I am defending myself at every turn on this board to all of the vicious attacks on my character. I am in no way angry that I had an abortion. At all.

What *does* make me angry is that you all cannot and will not accept the fact that here is a woman who had an abortion and, contrary to the lies you all consistently spew about women regretting having an abortion, I do NOT regret it. It puts "lie" to all your rhetoric about all abortions being so traumatizing to the mother, when here is a woman who rid herself of the trauma THROUGH an abortion. That is what is making all of you angry, which in turn is making ME angry.

reply from: chooselife

Sue - I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Forgive me if my question is offensive (it is entirely NOT meant to be such)...I am truly trying to understand your thought process. Do you believe that being Asian (and I don't know if you grew up immersed in Asian traditions or, if like many of my friends, you are completely Americanized) has influenced this point of view? I am recalling the stories of Asian men killing themselves to restore honor to their family....or of how women who were raped bring much shame to their family (this may not be an Asian custom....but I know this is true among some groups in India as well as the Middle East). Do you see where I am coming from? Do you think there is anything from your rearing as a child that have formed these values within you? (Let me explain my motives here just a bit further --- Yesterday I counseled 2 women who were Asian -- both of them are abortion minded and each of them spoke of shame. I immediately thought of your postings. I have never in my 3 years of counseling had an Asian client.....and yesterday I had 2. One of my clients is bi-polar and said she could not bear the thought of possibly bringing forth a child who could potentially be mentally ill. She spoke of the shame that would bring her family. It is interesting that she was assigned to me as my mother is also bi-polar and by her logic I should have been aborted for fear of bringing shame to my mother and/or her family.) Maybe if you can't speak of this and how it relates to you....you could possibly give me some insight as to how I can help these 2 Asian women who are seeking my counsel.

reply from: Amy

That kind of anger never serves anyone...and it gives the attacker more control over your life then you give yourself. I was raped three times by four different men...if I had not stopped the anger from engulfing me, it would have destroyed me...and hurt those I loved most in life. I decided to heal and use it as a means to help others. My body still holds the cigarette burns and scars and I've learned some hard lessons from my experience...but one was not to give someone that cruel rights to my soul.

You're right, allowing a horrible action to institute another horrible action? The sense in something like that completely escapes me.

reply from: sarah

Sue Yu wrote:
I had an abortion following a pregnancy following a brutal rape and assault which left me near death. I am GLAD that I had the abortion. Relieved. Understand? The only reason I am "angry" is because I am defending myself at every turn on this board to all of the vicious attacks on my character. I am in no way angry that I had an abortion. At all.

What *does* make me angry is that you all cannot and will not accept the fact that here is a woman who had an abortion and, contrary to the lies you all consistently spew about women regretting having an abortion, I do NOT regret it. It puts "lie" to all your rhetoric about all abortions being so traumatizing to the mother, when here is a woman who rid herself of the trauma THROUGH an abortion. That is what is making all of you angry, which in turn is making ME angry.

_____________________________________________________

Speaking for myself, (this is permitted, right?) if there is any percieved anger on my part, it is not directed at you personally. But, rather at something I find AS distasteful and without excuse as abortion on demand. And that something is "PREJUDICE".
You hold a prejudice twoards a segment of society and that is not acceptable. NO prejudice should ever be tolerated.
And the hard core truth is, holding that prejudice makes you a bigot.

You plainly look down your nose at people who have been concieved thru rape. You've made no bones about the fact that you deem them as nothing more than "animals" or "demon seed".
Just replace the words "product of rape" with Jew or Black and you'll see exactly what I mean. Oh, I know you said you don't wish them any harm, how big of you to do so.
However, bigotry is bigortry and no amount of "wishing" changes that fact.

reply from: SueYu

Sarah, if you can stand before your God and swear on your Bible that you hold absolutely NO prejudices against any member of any society on earth, including homosexuals and atheists, then I will gladly burn on the altar of your Lord for you.

My "prejudice" stems from the fact that something hideous happened to me. In a natural defensive response, I choose to avoid those people. Not to execute those people. Not to maim or hurt them in any way. I just choose to avoid them. They make me uncomfortable. They conjure up unpleasant memories of my attack. So I avoid them. Like I choose to avoid people who have the flu in the wintertime.

If you want to call it bigotry, if it makes you feel somehow superior to say that, then pray do it. It hurts me not.

Once again, you deliberately put me on the defensive. And you wonder why I am angry? Are you for real or is your heart a well-oiled machine?

reply from: ChristianLott

I'm being manipulative?

I want to know what you meant by 'why didn't you'.

You're STILL dodging.

The 'ol switcheroo. And a double switcheroo at that.

Can I get a witness? Can I get a witness?

You said Jesus was referring to abortion? Abortion is an act. You know He was talking about an individual. So you're saying the innocent child you murdered should never have been born. So I give you back your own medicine and now I'M the one being 'threatening'? You're the one who slaughtered your baby. You belong in jail along with your attackers.

Luk 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

reply from: SueYu

For the second time, I'd like to lodge a complaint against ChristianLott, please. For his threatening post implying that I should not have been born.

Thank you.

reply from: ChristianLott

Hit the 'Report this to a moderator' button where the original statement was made.

reply from: Tam

whoa....Amy, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm so glad you have been able to heal the way you have. You are a great example for any rape survivor.

reply from: Amy

You're twisting...you tried to find verse to support your premise that abortion has any place in faith...several posters told you the mistake of your game. So did we all threaten you then?

Here, let me give you a real shocker...people who are against abortion are AGAINST abortion.

reply from: SueYu

No, because none of you implied that I should have been aborted, like "Christian"Lott did.

I did report the post to a moderator. For all the good that's going to do, I'm sure!!!!

reply from: sarah

To the very best of my knowledge I hold no predudices twoards anyone in society. I've been the brunt end to prejudices in my life. I've seen my father ridiculed and spit on because he was Jewish. I know ALL TOO well what it is like to be on the recieving end of someone's predjudices. I know what it's like to walk in a room and someone walk out because of who I am. And there isn't an excuse in the world to cover any kind of bigotry.
Now, please refrain from any further "dramatics". I nor anyone else requires any "burning". Exactly how old are you anyway?

Now you're equating some human beings with a virus. Not surprising, but still unattractive all the same.

You have the roles reversed here. You are the one who thinks she's "superior" to certain others.

Living and freely admitting to holding a prejudice twoards others is what makes you feel the need to be defensive. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but we left the "abortion" issue behind sometime ago and have been discussing how someone could view another human being as an "animal" or "demon seed."

The reason I even discuss it is in hopes that someone else might read this and think twice about viewing a rape concieved child as something other than the innocent human being he or she is, just like his or her mother.

reply from: Tam

Do you avoid all people of the same race as your attackers, too? Do you avoid children of murderers the way you avoid children of rapists? You think that saying "in a natural defensive response, I choose to avoid those people" excuses your position? Ok, let's be realistic here: everyone with half a head should avoid rapists. Rapists are to be locked away where others shouldn't even have to "avoid" them because they're no longer free to walk down the street. Of course, they should be avoided. We're not talking about rapists--we're talking about children of rape. You avoid THEM because they make you uncomfortable and conjure up unpleasant memories. If you'd been attacked by a man in a purple hat, and you avoided everything purple, that would be weird, but not bigotry. But if you'd been attacked by a latino man and you avoided all latinos, that would be another thing entirely--it would be bigotry, no matter your "natural response" excuse for it. But you're not even talking about avoiding someone because of their similarity to your attackers. You're talking about avoiding ALL CHILDREN OF RAPE. That's bigotry, whether you like to hear it or not. No child of rape has raped you, unless by a whopping coincidence your rapists were children of rape (not likely). Calling that entire class of people "demons" and "animals" and making up reasons that you can justify doing so (their daddies were bad men! so they are the spawn of satan!!) is bigotry. What if you were a man and you were raped by homosexual men? Would you hate all homosexuals now? Would you call them demons and avoid them, too? Where do you draw the line with your bigotry? Does it extend only to children of rape, or are there other groups that make you "uncomfortable"? Your personal tragedy is NO excuse for your transparent bigotry--and using words like "animal" and "demon" only make the whole thing all the more ludicrous and more difficult to take seriously. What if you were a big fan of a musician and then you found out that his dad was a rapist? Would you still be able to listen to his music or would each note sound sour to your ears, sung as it was by demon spawn? Would it matter whether or not HE was conceived by rape? Or would it be ok if the rapist conceived that particular child intentionally, through love for someone, after abandoning his violent ways years earlier? Since you clearly differentiate between "humans" and "animals"/"demons" perhaps you can tell us who falls into each category for you?

reply from: Amy

No, because none of you implied that I should have been aborted, like "Christian"Lott did.

I did report the post to a moderator. For all the good that's going to do, I'm sure!!!!

It should do no good considering it was a matter of example put out so you would understand why your 'reasoning' was so off-kilter. Note...there is difference btw example and an actual threat to another person.

reply from: ChristianLott

Hello??

You inferred Jesus was talking about abortion. I said he was not.

I still don't have an answer. What did you mean by 'why didn't you' comment?

reply from: SueYu

ChristianLott, that is not what you meant. Backpedaling won't help you.

reply from: yoda

Hey, like he said, push the "Report this to a Moderator" link, and knock yourself out. CL doesn't need any "help".

reply from: ChristianLott

OK. Get ONE more person to corroborate your point of view and I'll review what I said.

In the mean time - I KNOW what I said and I answered all questions of the IMPLICATIONS of what I've said.

You have avoided ONE simple question FIVE TIMES.

Get to it or don't respond.

reply from: SueYu

I've been told the reference to your post implying that I should have been aborted has been deleted, CL.

Now....

On to your "question". Which is really no question at all, since I was replying to your statement. Which was.....

"I would've given my life for my babies".

I replied:

"Why didn't you, then?"

A noble gesture, wanting to give one's life for someone else. So I am curious why you said what you did. Obviously, you did not give your "life" for your babies. So I asked you why you did not. (You never answered me, btw, but rather charged me with "wishing you harm" or some such nonsense.) So what changed your mind? And why did you say you would "give your life" for your babies if you had no plan to? Was it said out of emotion? For effect? Or did you really plan to "give your life" for your babies and then something changed your mind?

Care to comment?

reply from: ChristianLott

First, do you know my story? Do you know I am a male and have no way to protect my babies until they're out of the womb?

I said I would have given my life for my babies and that's the truth. It has nothing to do with your 'revenge' scenario after your rape, understand?

Do you understand that I was not put in the situation to give my life for them? Yes or no.

Now, what did you mean by saying 'why didn't you'?

I want to know what you think my scenario was. Did you actually think I had an opportunity to sacrifice my life for my children? Yes or no.

Now, if you understood all this before you made that comment, what prompted you to make that careless threat?

Fortunately, I don't have time to go back and hunt for your perversions of what Jesus said nor do I care if the post was deleted. The moderator has attacked what I've said without warning, without conference and with extreme bias so I'm not surprised. Before it was with Bobinsky and well documented. This time - it's just too petty to argue about.

I will say this though, just in case you're still intentionally trying to misread into what I've said. Jesus was not talking about abortion, he was talking about the moral implications of doing evil. The moral implications of doing what is evil will follow you throughout this life and into the next.

Try this:

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

I didn't say it, Jesus did. Does this make sense to you? Yes or no.

I believe you're going to Hell for murdering your baby.

Hey moderator! Do you know how to read scripture? Do you actually believe Jesus was talking about abortion or even murdering people? If you took down that post, that's exactly what you're inferring you believe.

Also, Mr Moderator - what do you think of our new posters signature:

flickad -

Choose abortion. Your mother should have.

That's not what I said, not what I meant and I doubt you could find another RTLer here who believes I wish abortion on ANYONE.

If you removed the post, I find your lack of judgment offensive.

reply from: SueYu

Yes, I've read your story. I know you are a male and that you were not carrying your babies inside your body.

Yes, I understand. You did not have someone train-rape you, beat you bloody and leave you for dead. I understand perfectly.

Then I assume you said it "for effect". To gain sympathy. As you and others have accused me of doing here.

You said you would. Emphatically. I wanted to know what changed your mind. Why didn't you give your life for your babies? You still haven't answered that question. Unless you simply said it "for effect".

I can't answer whether or not it makes sense. But I also know Jesus said, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

And I believe I've told you...several times...that I don't care if I'm going to "hell" for "murdering my baby." Understand? Yes or No?

My post was:

Mark 14:21 says quite emphatically: "For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born." Sounds like Jesus is saying that Judas would've been better off had his mother aborted him. Doesn't it?

Your reply was deleted as being a "personal attack" so I cannot repost it here. But you implied that I should have been aborted before birth. Apparently, someone agreed with me when I pointed out that your comment was a personal attack. As well it was.


reply from: ChristianLott

Great.

Perfect.

Sympathy? Yes. I wanted you to become sympathetic to a parent who's lost his children to abortion. How would you feel if someone forced you to abort your children? Would you feel 'you' were raped or would you feel first for your lost babies and their horrible murder?

Yes. For the 'effect' of the truth. Sincerity. That's why I said it.

Now, are you inferring I commit suicide? How else would I give my life for babies who've already been murdered?

"For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure

you give will be the measure you get."

Read the whole thing in context, please...

No. I don't understand. No one really WANTS to go to Hell. Not even Satanists. It's just ignorance to say you want that.

No! Not at all! Judas committed suicide after Jesus died. Do you think Jesus wanted him to do that? No.

What it alludes to is Judases heart. Jesus doesn't want any of us to commit suicide, He wants us to understand the error of our ways. He doesn't say 'kill yourself', He points to how horrible that person will feel once he realizes WHO he has betrayed.

I don't talk like that. Go ask your pro abort friend flickad about that one.

And yes, I do have a witness. Look up a few posts to Yoda's comment.

As for the moderator - I know many in the pro life movement who are inept. I only wish the pro aborts the same.

reply from: SueYu

Well what on earth were YOU referring to when YOU said it????? You stated that you would give your life for that of your babies. Were you referring to going to have a cup of coffee in Starbucks? I don't think so. Did you do everything you could to save your babies, if it was so important to you that they live? If not, why not? It sounds like you're blaming the entire world for the loss of your babies. Guess what? It isn't the entire world's fault...just thought I'd clue you in a bit, there. Judging from your convoluted and illogical responses, I'd conclude you have some serious mental issues over this, sir. For that I pity you.

I didn't say I wanted to go to hell. I said I didn't care if I did. And I don't care. If God wants to condemn me, then I feel the price was well worth it.

Look closer. It means the same thing. "Judge not lest ye be judged".

Whatever. I'd rather this not turn into a big long theological debate, if it's all the same to you.

Yes. You did talk like that. Why else was your post deleted? Because it was offensive.

Who or what on earth is "flickad"?

You're calling a moderator of this board "inept". I hope he takes note of it.

reply from: Amy

whoa....Amy, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm so glad you have been able to heal the way you have. You are a great example for any rape survivor.

Thanks Tam, I appreciate that.

I'm still not completely over it...rather, it's just part of my reality...just like anything else that has brought trial to my life. But I clearly remember sitting in the shower letting hot water run to cold the water making the burns sear...my Mom sitting outside my bathroom door, at first trying to get me to talk to her to tell her I was ok...then just so I would know she was there. And then I thought, that is the last moment I am going to give those men...either that time or the times before...I was not going to be raped over and over again in my head. There are residuals...poor self-esteem, fear in unfamiliar situations, etc...that I've had to work through...but I refused the rage that would eat me alive.

Considering how many women who are murdered by their assailants...the point would be for the rest of us to really live.

reply from: ChristianLott

Well didn't I just tell you?

Would YOU give your life to save your child? I assume you would and I assumed you'd be able to see the correlation between our mutual emotions.

I do not condone suicide, nor do I think what I said could be honestly interpreted like that. Now you're just grasping at straws. You meant I should commit suicide, didn't you? Yes or no.

OK. So you don't believe abortion is murder?

"For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure

you give will be the measure you get."

He's talking about hypocrites. It is impossible for someone to not judge. Believing judgment is wrong is itself a judgment. That's not what He said. He's telling you - if you go around lying about people, don't get upset when they start lying about you. Likewise, if you go around murdering people, don't get upset when someone decides to kill you.

You understand this.

And this is what you complained to the moderator about then refuse to discuss. Typical.

Because the moderator is offensive or was manipulated by you? Duh.

His/her sig is:

Choose abortion. Your mother should have.

Never seen it?

He should, I sent him that last letter.

But the kicker is - your manipulation of this situation.

If you were straight forward and honest, this would be a discussion and not a confrontation. You've chosen this, Ms 'Choice'.

reply from: ChristianLott

You have my sympathy, Amy.

reply from: Amy

That's very kind of you CL...but I lived through it...I have beautiful children...a huge wonderful family...a great job...lots of wonderful things. I don't hate men, rather I think they are wondorous and interesting creatures...I am not fearful...nor do I blame anyone other than those individuals who purposely hurt me. I am not a victim...I am a survivor of rape. I realized long ago, even in the most difficult of times...God blesses us. He has blessed me time and again. For that I am always thankful.

reply from: sarah

You're an inspiration to many, I'm sure. And a fabulous example of what happens when we "choose" not to be a victim of our circumstances.

I'm in awe of your attitude and will try and learn from your example.

I'm also in awe of the contrast seen in the difference it can make when one does choose not to hate or be bitter and when one does.

May God continue to bring healing into your life and I'm sure He will. You have opened the door wide for Him to work.

reply from: Skippy

And the Double-Standard-O-Meter goes off the scale!!

reply from: Allizdog2000

Feel free to feed apon and enjoy the victimhood status before it runs out, because our tolerance for it is running out.

reply from: SueYu

If you call that convoluted mess "telling me", then I guess you did. Translation, please!

If my child was drowning, I'd jump in the water to save it. Or any number of similar circumstances. If my child had incurable cancer, however, I would not put a gun to my head and shoot myself, thinking God will spare my child if he had me instead.

No. YOU meant that you should commit suicide, by your claim "I'd give my life for my babies". Since you didn't HAVE your babies yet...they were not born...it struck me that you considered suicide. Again, what changed your mind? I'm happy you did change your mind, for that would've accomplished nothing, but I'm curious what changed it.

If God decides that ending the seed of an animal in my womb is "murder" and wants to condemn me for it, let him. Why should I get myself into a tizz over it now? What would it serve? If he wants me in Hell, that's where you can find me.

I do get amused by these evangelical/fundamentalist interpretations of Scripture. CL, if it makes you happy, then believe it.

Incorrect. I complained to the moderator for your implication that I should've been aborted. I've told you this for the sixth time now. You don't have a learning disability, do you?

The moderator is a member of this board. I will assume he is pro-life. In fact, I know he is. He saw what you wrote, however, and was offended. Probably because you, who like to whine and cry how "pro-life" you are, just told another member of this board that she would have been better off had she been aborted. It's time to get a clue, CL.

No, I'm happy to say, I have not. That is quite a distasteful sig, IMHO.

You do have a learning disability, I see now.

Here is your first post to me, CL:

Why mention it?

You murdered your own flesh and blood. Congratulations.

A rape deserves the murder of an innocent baby for you. You're not alone in believing that.

You're a murderer and a butcher.

I need to remind you, CL, that you were the one who attacked me right out of the starting gate, on your first post to me (see above). You never wanted a "discussion", calling me a "murderer", a "butcher", and then in subsequent posts you opined that I "should be in jail with my attackers", you mused that I would be going straight to hell. This is discussion? To a mentally ill person, perhaps.

But then, maybe I just answered my own question. Again, you have my pity.

reply from: SueYu

Oh. I am sorry. But was it ever really there to begin with?

reply from: ChristianLott

How do you go from saying that you yourself would give YOUR life to save your babies to saying that when I say it I mean suicide?

How does that work? I say it, I'm suicidal. You say it - you're a saint. How does that work?

Oh, I see -" Since you didn't HAVE your babies yet...they were not born...it struck me that you considered suicide. "

No, my babies were murdered in the womb and if I could have prevented their death I would have, regardless of my own life.

Then you say "Again, what changed your mind? I'm happy you did change your mind, for that would've accomplished nothing, but I'm curious what changed it."

What? I never wanted to commit suicide. I never said I wanted to commit suicide. I never inferred I wanted to commit suicide. Suicide is a mortal sin. You go straight to Hell for committing suicide, despite what Hollywood wants you to believe.

What is it with you and suicide? You brought it up with your comment "Well why didn't you?" -

Then you say you are happy I changed my mind?

This is all transference on your part. Leave me out of it.

Murder is killing an innocent person. You know your baby was innocent of any wrong doing.

Define hypocrisy and we'll find out.

It seems you don't like me defining things but when you come back with the same explanation it's all okay - like you did with this 'giving your life for your child is suicide' charade you constructed.

See, dear - that was YOUR implication of what Jesus said. Jesus was not talking about abortion or murder - you were.

More transference.

It's time for you to take your transference paranoia and keep it to yourself.

I thought I explained this already, so let's go one more time.

Obviously you think Jesus commissioned murder. I do not. Therefore when I say He was talking about you, I was not inferring He commissioned your murder.

Transference. You made it seem like we agreed to the meaning of what He said. We never did. I think He was talking about you. He was not talking about murder, He was not talking about abortion - He was talking about betrayal and I think you've betrayed Him by the murder of your first baby.

Distasteful, yes. Will you report it? Doubt it.

And you think you're talking to a punk. More transference, stupid.

It's not an attack when they are all facts. Did you or did you not have your first baby butchered?

"To a mentally ill person"? Yes. You've got to be mentally ill to have an innocent baby slaughtered.

reply from: SueYu

All right, CL. It's apparent to me that you can't get a grasp on what I'm saying or asking of you here with regard to your statement "I would've given my life for my babies", though I've given you multiple examples. Just skip it, eh? I'm getting weary re-explaining it every 5 minutes.

The fetus that was implanted into my body forcefully by a rapist is dead. It's gone. I don't regret it. What don't you get?

You define it with every post. I don't need to.

No, darling. I won't repeat your statement again, because you know what you said. As did the moderator.

It's time for you to seek help for your mental instability. High time. You'll feel better, really you will.

Didn't you already do it 47 times? Do I really need to make it 48? Come, now.

No. I had its 5-week life, planted there by an INHUMAN ANIMAL, ended in my womb. I recall you making a post that "babies", or rather EMBRYOS/FETUSES cannot feel pain until the 8th week.

So what are you whining about NOW? It was 5 weeks. It felt nothing. Right? Or are you contradicting yourself again? You do that so often, CL. Do try to keep track of what you're saying, it makes pulling your posts apart so much easier.

It was an attack, CL. An instant attack on me, right off the bat. I fear that you are seriously mentally unbalanced. You are looking to place the blame for the loss of your own "babies" on the entire world, when the only blame to be laid is at your own door. When you realize this, you can atone for yourself and move on. Please seek help. For the sakes of any future children you might want to father, if not for your own sake.

reply from: ChristianLott

You don't care, I can't make you.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's the bottom line, CL. You cannot awaken the conscience of someone who calls babies "demons".

reply from: Tam

What on earth? I'll comment! How could CL have given his life for his babies? Being willing does not mean being given the opportunity. Didn't you ever have a loved one die and wish you could have been in their place? Well, why weren't you? I'll bet it's because: there was no opportunity to do that. Life doesn't usually work that way. What is wrong with you that you'd say such a thing to CL? I haven't read the rest of this thread--yet (I'm making my way through...) but right off the bat, I wonder what on earth you mean by "Why didn't you, then?" since no opportunity was ever presented to CL (to my knowledge) that would have allowed him to spare the lives of his precious children by sacrificing his own. That he would have been willing to do so does not mean he was wrong NOT to do so--what opportunity do you think he had?

reply from: Tam

If you call that convoluted mess "telling me", then I guess you did. Translation, please!

If my child was drowning, I'd jump in the water to save it. Or any number of similar circumstances. If my child had incurable cancer, however, I would not put a gun to my head and shoot myself, thinking God will spare my child if he had me instead.

I am having a hard time maintaining the ability to respond to your posts as though they merit response. This is really getting ridiculous. Do you actually think that there was a time that CL thought, "Well, maybe if I kill myself, God will spare my children"? If so, you are either a fool or ... actually, there's no "or"--if you think that, you are clearly a fool. Do you really not get it yet that when a parent says, "I'd have given my life for my kids, if only I could have." that doesn't mean, "I considered suicide, but then I realized that wouldn't bring them back." The latter might also be true, but they are two wholly different statements and that you can't see the difference is astonishing to me. If some jerk had a gun to your (second) child's head, what wouldn't you do to save her? Anything you had to, right? Up to and including giving your life, right? But what if there were a sheet of thick plexiglas between you and them? Wouldn't you be standing there thinking, "I'd give my life to save my child, if only I had the chance!" Then imagine your child being killed, when you'd have given your life to save hers, but didn't have the chance to do so. Then maybe you'll have some clue about where CL is coming from.

No. YOU meant that you should commit suicide, by your claim "I'd give my life for my babies". Since you didn't HAVE your babies yet...they were not born...it struck me that you considered suicide. Again, what changed your mind? I'm happy you did change your mind, for that would've accomplished nothing, but I'm curious what changed it.

Argh! This is so numb! Do you really not get this--they were not born, but they did EXIST, inside their mom's womb. Two tiny bodies, vacuumed away. "Since you didn't HAVE your babies yet..." --what an asinine comment. What do you think was destroyed in the abortion? Oh, right--a lump of tissue, right? Well, was it a Kleenex brand or a generic?

That is really inappropriate, and I'm reporting it.

However, just for the record, I should note that: all of this "you think you shoulda killed yourself for your kids--why didn't cha" and "you think I shoulda been aborted" isn't quite tangible enough for me to put aside any cash. If you guys want me to donate, you'll have to make your threats more overt. (I hope you DON'T, of course--and of course, if CL threatens you, I won't donate any money to punish him. I guess I could take money OUT of the jar. But right now I don't see much reason to put in or take out.)

reply from: ChristianLott

Sure I'm threatening to them.

My very presence and knowledge about what they are doing - child sacrifice - has all these satanic bimbos and their satanic brothers chomping at the bit.

reply from: yoda

No truer words were ever spoken. Nor sadder.

reply from: ChristianLott

I have no difficulty believing other's stories about horrible experiences.

reply from: Tam

No truer words were ever spoken. Nor sadder.

Yeah. CL, just in case there's any doubt--my heart totally goes out to you for what you went through.

reply from: ChristianLott

Tam, it's like:

'Sue, did you want to kill your attackers? Why didn't you?'

reply from: ChristianLott

Yoda, do you have information that I don't? Did you suggest Bobo and SueYu are the same person? This can be verified by the moderator, can it not?

reply from: mom5

Sure I'm threatening to them.

My very presence and knowledge about what they are doing - child sacrifice - has all these satanic bimbos and their satanic brothers chomping at the bit.

Not only are you a "threat", but all women and men who suffer from abortion and are speaking out are "threats'...they just don't want the truth out there...the truth is people's personal experience with this evil.

reply from: yoda

No, I don't have any inside info. IMO they probably are, CL, but it's no big deal. I focus on the words any poster uses, not the identity of the poster, because different posters can post the same words/ideas/concepts, or the same poster can post many different words/ideas/concepts. It's those that we need to rebut, not whether one of them is trolling under a new nick.

reply from: galen

another good one.... see all the arguments are here in the forum... no need to rehash anothers mistakes... learn from them..
Mary

reply from: Sigma

Bumping long dead threads is usually frowned upon in forums for a reason.
For one thing, if someone disputes what another poster says but that poster has long been gone from the forum there is really little this thread accomplishes.

reply from: galen

no siggy but some people do not realize they are there in the history... just a good way to show them they may need to do a bit of digging...
Mary

reply from: bradensmommy

wow, this thread is old!! I couldn't believe the things that this Sue said, it really makes me think less of her. I don't know if she is still trolling but what she said kinda goes to "If you could have resisted your rape would you?" Yeah, thats as harsh as her comments were.
Some people on this board have no heart.


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