Home - List All Discussions

What about pregnancy resulting from rape?

by: SueYu

When I was 18, I was walking home from the mall, which was only about 1/4 of a mile from my house. It was a summer evening in June, about 7PM, full daylight. An older man, about 60-ish, pulled up beside me in a green car. He asked for directions to a locale in town. He looked harmless, almost like my grandfather. I stepped to the curb to give him directions, and then a strong force behind me opened the car door and shoved me into it. The person who shoved me got in behind me. This person was a younger man, about 30.

I was driven to a remote spot, raped by both men, and beaten almost to death. I thought I would be killed. But I was left there in a wooded area, in agony, bleeding, my arm broken, my chest feeling like it was bound with wire. I laid there all night, unable to move. I thought I would die. I wished I would.

The next morning, a kid with a fishing pole in his hand found me and got help. I was brought to the hospital and admitted for my injuries. A week later I was released, cast on arm, bruised and battered.

A month later I learned I was pregnant. Yes, it was one of the rapists who impregnated me. How am I sure? Because I was a virgin when I was attacked, that's how. I was horrified that a part of one of those two animals who had attacked me was now growing inside me.

I ran, did not walk, to a woman's clinic. I suffered through their discussions about choices such as adoption, etc. I wanted none of it. I wanted this thing growing inside me to be torn from my body and discarded with the contempt it deserved. I joyfully lay down on the table. When it was over, I rejoiced. In my own way, I felt vindicated. Especially since the animals were never caught and had done the same to who knows how many other girls or women.

That was 15 years ago. I am now married, mother of one, and never do I regret removing that "cancer" that took root inside me, courtesy of a raping animal. Had abortion been illegal, I would've sought an illegal one. Had I not been able to find the means to obtain an illegal one, I would've done it myself. Happily. And died if necessary. There was no way in heaven or hell I was going to carry this demon of such a grotesque and brutal act to term, nourishing it and nurturing it, inside my uterus.

That's my story. I have zero regrets. Fire away. The bullets will ricochet off my conscience, I assure you.

reply from: ChristianLott

Why mention it?

You murdered your own flesh and blood. Congratulations.

A rape deserves the murder of an innocent baby for you. You're not alone in believing that.

You're a murderer and a butcher.

reply from: SueYu

Thank you.

Again, thank you very much. I consider it a compliment to be a murderer and a butcher of a demon planted inside me against my will.

Not one word about the brutality perpetrated against me, I notice. I am not surprised in the least.

The day I had the abortion was the happiest day of my life.

reply from: ChristianLott

You murder an innocent baby and you want me to console you about a rape.

Nice try.

reply from: yoda

There are no bullets to fire. You acted out of anger towards your attackers, and you killed what you considered a "part of them". The part that was "from you" was of no consequence to you. Nor was the fact that both parts together constituted a completely unique person that was not "just like" either you or your attacker. No, you wanted only revenge, and you think you got it. But did you ever consider that your attacker was probably glad that you aborted, so there would be no "evidence", and no child support for him to worry about?

You use terms like "thing", "cancer", and "demon" to describe the unborn life you took your "revenge" upon. If you feel that way about an innocent human being that had never done a single thing to you, how can any compassion be expected from you?

No, you can rest easy, you need have no fear that anything will affect your "conscience".

reply from: SueYu

Is this a serious question? This wasn't a boyfriend I decided to have sex with in the back seat of a Chevy. These were animals who kidnapped me, brutalized me, and left me for dead. They were never caught. How then, could "child support" ever be extracted from either of them?

Well, I suppose you can ask my husband and 5-year-old daughter that question. Both seem pretty happy with their wife and mom.

Again, I notice zero mention of the hideous brutality perpetrated against me from a second pro-"lifer". May I take this to mean that only the "fetus" has importance for you?

From that demonic episode of my life? You are absolutely and unequivocably correct.

reply from: SueYu

No, I guess I don't. It would be too much to ask of such a "Godly" person as yourself.

Incidentally, it wasn't "just a rape". In other words, I wasn't just held down and forced to have sexual intercourse against my will. I was beaten almost to death. Had the kid walking in the woods not found me when he did, I would've died.

This makes no difference for you. As long as the demon seed could've been saved, you prove by your words that it wouldn't have mattered to you if I died.

"Godly"?

reply from: yoda

At the time you aborted, they had no assurance that they'd never be caught. So your abortion was probably a source of comfort for them as well as you.

You already mentioned that quite extensively. What would you like me to add that you haven't already said, since all I know about this is what you've posted?

reply from: sarah

I wonder why you feel it necessary to share this? I'm sure part of that is for attention and to "set up" a chance to vindicate your feelings about abortion and those who opppose abortion on demand.

This isn't a forum set up for therapy (much needed, no doubt) for rape victims.

What you endured was a travesty. I hope you continue to recieve therapy and are able to heal. I also hope those who did this horrible thing to you were prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Your baby sure was.

reply from: SueYu

Since my resultant pregnancy from this attack was not trumpeted on the evening news, I don't know how they could've known about the abortion. Do you?

I mentioned it twice. Once to you, once to ChristianLott. This is extensive?

Perhaps that you commiserate for the plight of a young woman, and a virgin at that, to have been raped, mauled, and beaten by two human animals to the point where she was almost dead? That would be a good start.

But why bother now? You both made pretty clear that my own life meant little in comparison to the product of the rape that took hold in my body.

reply from: Hereforareason

Sue Yu, I"m sorry you went through what you went through. It was terrible. If needed you should probably look into getting some kind of therapy. What was done to you is not excusable. It was wrong.
It does sound like your abortion was in part retailiation. Your discust for them carried on to the child you were carrying. But that child was not an animal. It was not a demon. it was not a cancer. And it was not it's fault that it was there. Just like it wasn't your fault you were rapped. You were beaten and sexually abused. But what did that child go through? It was torn limb from limb. It wasn't even given a chance at life outside the womb of it's mother.
If it had been me, I would probably go through a lot of the same emotions you went through. Except, that I know a life is a life no matter how small it is. (Close to a Dr. Suess quote ) It was not the babies fault. If I couldn't stand to take care of the child, there are countless couples waiting to adopt who would have gratefully taken care of my baby.

I'd like to make a final point. Those men made a choice and carried it out. They chose to rape you. They were pro-choice in the sense that it is used now aday. It was a wrong choice. But they made it. Are there other choices that are made that are wrong?

Amber

reply from: SueYu

Amber, thank you for a heartfelt reply. Unlike all of the others who posted in reply to me, you show compassion not only for the aborted fetus, but for the victim of a vile assault and a near-murder, and you do it without questioning my motive, without blame, and without assuaging me that "this isn't a forum set up for therapy (much needed, no doubt) for rape victims".

I vented this story for one purpose: to demonstrate that there are women out there for whom abortion is not a cause for sorrow, and indeed, for whom it is a necessity in order to physically and/or mentally carry on with their own lives. I hear your argument, Amber, and although it may have seemed "an innocent life", I did not look upon the life inside me as "mine" and thus had no compunction in ending it. I did not vent this story to "vindicate my feelings about abortion and those who opppose abortion on demand". For me, this was not "abortion on demand". I did not fool around with a boy and get pregnant by accident. Had I, I would've had the child. This for me was an assault on my mind, body and soul. Against my will. Against everything I know to be right. For me to be forced to carry such a life to fruition would've been like asking me to be brutalized 1000 times over. Thus, I was determined that the "result" of that inhuman act would not grow comfy and warm in my body, reminding me at every turn of the deed. I was not going to give a product of such a union "life". In addition, I'd like to point out that pregnancy is strenuous on a woman's body. Having never been pregnant before, I did not know what effect it would have on me. Miscarriage runs heavy in my family...my mother miscarried four times, the last time she bled so bad she needed transfusions and even then she almost died. Was I ready to put my life at risk for this "child" that was a result of such a vicious act against my will? My answer was absolutely not. As it is, 10 years later I gave birth to my daughter under compromised health circumstances. I've been advised not to have any more children. What if I had given birth to the grotesque "rape child" and then had been unable to give birth to my and my husband's beautiful daughter??

Abortion on demand? No I do not agree with that. But to criminalize all abortions, no matter the circumstance, is wrong. I do not and never will regret my decision. If God damns me for it, no problem. I will go to hell a satisfied woman.

reply from: flickad

Your strength and pride in steadfastly making the right choice for you and then speaking out about it without apology or shame deserves nothing but the utmost respect and applause. Good on you.

<3, Deb.

reply from: Skippy

What a horrible experience for you to have to go through. My heart goes out to you.

I understand why you posted this, even if the Hatfields do not. They say a loving couple would be happy to adopt a child of rape. But unless you're been raped yourself, you don't really understand what it does to you. Their feel-good solution of "only nine months" doesn't take into account that for you, it would have been like nine million years of feeling raped all over again every day.

I applaud your courage in sharing your story.

reply from: Allizdog2000

This was sadly the only justice that could have been served. Saying this is unfornate is an understatement, I believe you are still angry about this, and you need to mourn.

reply from: yoda

No. But if they had known, I'm sure they'd have been relieved that you aborted.

Here's the deal: We get all kinds of kooks and wierdos, liars and pretenders on forums like this, and there is no way to separate them from sincere, honest ones except to get to know them over time. With the anonymity and privacy afforded to visitors, anyone can come here and pretend to be anyone, and tell any kind of story, whether true or not.

So when someone brand new shows up out of the blue, with an attitude, and posts a hostile post like you did, I tend to be quite skeptical of their sincerity. And then when they further seek to criticize others for not immediately showing great grief and sorrow over their terrible past, I get even more skeptical.

So stick around a year or two, and maybe we'll get to know you well enough to trust that you're telling the truth. Just don't expect to drop in out of the blue and have us all fawn over you, especially when "lack of sympathy for the victimized woman" is a favorite attack tactic of all proaborts.

reply from: Skippy

The double standard is a hoot. None of the Hatfields question chrisianlott's sob story, but a rape victim inspires skepticism. Can't have much to do with duration, since he's been trumpeting his tale for the entire almost-two-months he's been posting.

reply from: yoda

Hey, Skippy..... be a little objective here..... okay? Did CL demand that we cry over his misfortune, or criticize us for not doing so? Did he thumb his nose at us in the very post he mentioned his bad experience?

Did he say that all proaborts are cold and caloused and insensitive because they didn't sympathize with and comfort him? Did he post his story in such a way as to use it to show what monsters all you proaborts are?

Come on, you can do better than that!

reply from: theflyingpen

What a horrible story!

What's even worse is that the two got away - they could've just gone on a raping rampage. I of course don't know when this happened, but I'm assuming rape detection kits and the such were not very popular...from the details we've been given, it seems as if the hospital patched you up and sent you home. And it seems like you were very traumatized from the event - did the police even ask for descriptions - what kind of chase was given to the two men? You were able to recall the green car and their ages...

This is one thing which extremely angers me about our judicial system - their lack of compassion for a woman who claims to have been raped. Even if she has direct physical evidence of a rape, if she has in any way compromised her sexuality in the past year, they can dismiss her without a case.

Even men who are found guilty of raping women - does their punishment truly fit the crime?

In Dubai, a man or woman caught stealing has his/her hands cut off...

In Saudi Arabia, a rapist is stoned to death...

Of course, these are extreme - I cannot condone taking someone else's life away. But the measures these countries take show they realize what the woman goes through during a rape, and punish him to the fullest extent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape#Punishment_of_assailant says:



I am truly sorry for that experience - not only did these two men take something very precious to you (to anyone!) they were a great impetus for your own abortion - your having an abortion was forced by them. Though you appear to revel in it, the best situation would've been to not have to go through such a procedure right after your traumatizing event...

I'm glad that you were able to move on, and now have a husband who seems to love you - and a daughter too!

One thing about your post earlier interested me greatly:

You obviously have reasons for your own abortion; will you elaborate on why you disagree with abortion on demand? What do you, personally, have against it?

For example, it makes me feel a little sick inside when I hear of teenagers or women who have serial abortions because of lack of responsibility - both boy and girl to blame, of course.

Just curious - thanks!

reply from: SueYu

I'm sorry you feel that way, Yodavater. It must be awful to be such a cynic as to doubt the relating of an experience as horrid as mine was. I make no apologies for my obvious disgust at relating my experience, nor of my notice that some of you zeroed right in on the "wrong" of the abortion without even offering one syllable of commiseration. I suppose this is what you mean by a "hostile post"? Since my first posts were about history and had nothing to do with abortion. But again, I make no apologies for this "attitude" or "hostility" I supposedly have. Had you been repeatedly raped and beaten almost dead, I believe you would have had no apologies for your "attitude" and "hostility" toward it either.

"Fawning" over me? No, I don't require "fawning". That's reserved for celebrities who demand to be worshipped. I'm just an everyday woman who unfortunately had an un-everyday experience.

I get the feeling that if I stuck around here 10 years, there would a good many of you still "condemning me to hell" and referring to me as a "proabort".

reply from: sarah

Not only that, but he's been around here long enough to know him somewhat. It's EXACTLY like you said, Yoda....there is definatley room for skeptisim in this instance.

Who wears this kind of a travesty as a badage and USES it to forward their own personal pro-abortion stand and agenda?

It's a personal travesty and knowing something about the effects a rape can cause, I know of no one who would broadcast this kind of an experience on this type of format. So, though this kind of crime against another human being is beyond the pale, I have my doubts as to at the very least the "motives" for posting this.

reply from: yoda

No, not at all. After you've been burned a few times by people claiming to be one thing and then turning out to be just the opposite, you learn not to be taken in by every sad story you read from a poster you know little or nothing about. Cynicism is quite appropriate online, in my experience, since you can't see the person with whom you're communicating, or know much of anything about them that you can confirm.

Hey, why not give it a try? You never know, you might graduate to a simple irritation!

As to the "proabort" label, well that's misunderstood by most prochoicers. Tell me honestly, do these definitions fit your positon on abortion?:

pro-a·bor·tion adjective - favoring legal access to abortion: in favor of open legal access to voluntary abortion http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736813

pro-abortion SYLLABICATION: pro-a·bor·tion PRONUNCIATIONr-bôrshn ADJECTIVE: Favoring or supporting legalized abortion. http://www.bartleby.com/61/27/P0572700.html

Main Entry: pro·abor·tion Pronunciation: (')prO-&-'bor-sh&n Function: adjective : favoring the legalization of abortion -pro·abor·tion·ist /-sh(&-)n&st/ noun http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pro-abortion

reply from: Skippy

Did you question the authenticity of his story when he showed up here less than two months ago? A yes or no will suffice.

reply from: Skippy

Same question for you. Did you question the authenticity of his story when he showed up here less than two months ago and started broadcasting it? It's a yes or no question.

Either ALL personal stories are worth considering and discussing, or none are. Take your pick.

reply from: theflyingpen

I have to say that in my arguments with pro-choicers, this is an area that does come up quite often. It is an effective way to argue a pro-lifer who hasn't truly thought about or realized why they are pro-life yet. The emotional appeal alone, especially if you're debating woman-woman, is enough to make a lot of pro-lifers question where they stand.

I do believe a woman who feels she has gotten over and moved on from such a travesty as a rape can easily describe the situation to you, especially when she feels it will help sway how you view abortion.

And a point is also made about us pro-lifers when there is absolutely no compassion made for the woman behind the abortion - there are two victims here, not one.

reply from: sarah

It's not a simple yes or no question for me, I knew CL before he ever posted here.

Further, the first posts I ever read by him were not of this nature. That came sometime after. He laid the foundation of his beliefs on abortion before he shared his own personal experiences.
So, though you'd like to "use" this woman's experience to further your own agenda, I'm not going to participate.

That's not true. It's not a "black or white" issue, though making it such helps your cause, no doubt.

reply from: yoda

I'm with you there, sarah.....

reply from: SueYu

There was a lengthy policy investigation. I was able to recall the color of the car (green), and the make (a Ford, I remember the insignia on the steering wheel), and I remember thinking the car was old since the seats were patched with duct tape. This attack happened 15 years ago. I gave descriptions of the attackers (mostly the older man, I don't recall what the younger man looked like except he had dark hair and a dark moustache). Every time I tried to get a good look at the younger man, he bashed me across the face, I assume to keep me from looking at him. I feared he would kill me, so I didn't want to risk looking him directly in the face. The older man had intense blue eyes, all wrinkled skin around them, and sparse gray hair. He had foul-smelling body odor. The police drew composite sketches, which I thought were fairly accurate, and they were posted around the state on an APB.

At the hospital, I was admitted for a week. My arm was set, I was x-rayed for internal damage at which point two cracked ribs were found. I had multiple cuts and lacerations, including to my private parts. I was given a pelvic exam, and semen samples were taken. Extracting DNA was available at that time, but it was time-consuming and expensive. Still, they took the sample, were able to extract DNA out of it, and every six months since the attack, it is run through a database of known rapists. No match has yet been found. The police have since theorized that the attackers were two drifters who worked (obviously) in tandem. I wish I could've seen the license plate, even to tell whether or not it was out of state, but I never saw it. Nobody knows if they struck again somewhere else, but as yet no other samples have come to light.

I've been a responsible person since childhood. I never endeavored to do something without knowing the consequences of my actions, and then making a decision based on those consequences. "Abortion on demand", to me, is abortion as a method of birth control for irresponsible people. And in the cases of low-income people, the abortions are paid for by government assistance. This is idiotic. There are plenty of effective birth control methods on the market that could be had for nothing or nearly nothing to low-income people. For people who are wealthy and can pay for their "abortion as birth control", this is not only irresponsibility on their part but also callousness in the first degree.

Abortion, in my opinion, should never be outlawed altogether. There are always extenuating circumstances that must be considered. It should absolutely be available to women in cases of rape, incest, health of mother, irreversibly serious or terminal illness of the fetus. How it should be regulated in all other cases, I'm not sure. It seems to be an all or nothing dilemma here...it should be outlawed completely in all circumstances, which I am totally against.

Thank you for your considerate post.

reply from: yoda

It might "suffice" for you, but it won't for me. He didn't attack me for "not being sympathetic enough", and I didn't express any opinion on the veracity of his story either way. I saw no reason to then, and I don't see one now.

reply from: ChristianLott

No, I guess I don't. It would be too much to ask of such a "Godly" person as yourself.

Incidentally, it wasn't "just a rape". In other words, I wasn't just held down and forced to have sexual intercourse against my will. I was beaten almost to death. Had the kid walking in the woods not found me when he did, I would've died.

This makes no difference for you. As long as the demon seed could've been saved, you prove by your words that it wouldn't have mattered to you if I died.

"Godly"?

Godly what?

Rape is bad, murder is worse.

Would you rather be dead than have been raped? Kill yourself.

I don't advise it, because you will go to Hell.

What do you want me to do, clap my hands in a joy that you slaughtered an innocent child because you wanted revenge on his or her father?

You're lucky you survived, like you said. That should have given you a clue as to how much life is worth.

The experience was lost on you though.

reply from: yoda

Without knowing the woman personally, I don't know how anyone is supposed to feel compassion for her, just because she has killed her own child........ especially when she shows no remorse at all.

Do you automatically feel compassion for the killer when you read about the murder of an innocent child?

reply from: ChristianLott

SueYu said:

It couldn't possibly mean that we wanted to love you both?

reply from: sarah

Yes, the area comes up quite often, but very rarely from a personal experience. It's a brutal crime and one of a most extreme pesonal nature, and most vicitims do not share on this type of format with the obvious motivation of stirring emotions and with a critical eye towards responders before there were any responses.

And to me, it's very sad to think someone would use such a personal travesty to further their own views on aboriton. There are right ways and wrong ways to go about anything one does.

I agree. Though from Sue Yu's perspective she was the only vicitm. The words she used to describe her baby went beyond the pale and were only used to bring up the emotional response she was hoping for.

As far as posting on the internet it's like Yoda said, it's easy to be burned and once burned twice shy is the saying. None of us have the ability to know for a certainity what anyone says is fact. And with enough time and experience it's only natural to take things said with a grain of salt.

If she indeed did experience this brutal crime then all hearts should and do go out to her. But, I stand by my assertions that to "use" it in anyway but to stop such crimes happening in the future is cause for a certain amount of skepticism.

reply from: SueYu

I was almost dead. I wished I were dead, at the time, yes. You call yourself "Christian"Lott. How ironic. Since your heartless attitude toward a sexual assault victim has zero to do with anything that Christ ever taught.

According to your view, I'm going there anyway. So be it.

I hope so. I sincerely hope so.

reply from: ChristianLott

I was almost dead. I wished I were dead, at the time, yes. You call yourself "Christian"Lott. How ironic. Since your heartless attitude toward a sexual assault victim has zero to do with anything that Christ ever taught.

Some fates are worse than death, I'm sure you agree?

According to your view, I'm going there anyway. So be it.

There are levels.

I hope so. I sincerely hope so.

Why can't we love you both? Because you turned yourself into a murderer.

reply from: theflyingpen

I can definitely understand and respect why you feel this way.

Haha, forgive me for grasping (I try to find common ground with everyone I talk to ) - does this mean I can assume that in the cases of abortion which are not included in the extenuating circumstances which you listed, you do find something reprehensible or offensive?

You commented that you found it callous - is this because of instead of using easy and convenient methods of BC, they are instead using up time, money, and energy in getting abortions? or do you see something wrong with abortion in general, if it does not have one of the reasons you listed?

You're welcome.

reply from: Skippy

That was a lovely game of dodgeball. Thank you. Please be gracious in your defeat, ya hear?

reply from: SueYu

Sarah, you are entitled to your views. If you want to disbelieve me, pray do, for that's your prerogative. I hope that it never happens to you or your daughter or anyone else you love.

From the womb which I ended that "sacred life", emerged my beautiful daughter. Am I glad to have geared my health, my energies, my heart, into promoting her healthy birth over a demon seed's?

ABSOLUTELY.

As astonished as some of you are at me for ending this "sacred life" in my womb, I am equally astonished at some of you. Considering the "life" of an animal growing in your womb as "sacred" escapes any rational comprehension I have. Any. It was never for one second "sacred" to me. It was, rather, sacreligious. An abomination from hell. That is how I looked upon it. If this is "beyond pale" for some of you, then oh well. So be it.

Am I a "proabort"?

If you want to call me one, I cannot stop you. Will I "burn in hell"? Maybe. Do I care? Would it help if I did? No, it wouldn't. So I don't. I consider it a price I was more than willing to pay for my own sanity and my own life, and for the lives of any future children I wanted to have. If God wants to condemn me for it, let him.

reply from: SueYu

You don't understand. I don't care if I am the murderer of the seed of a rapist.

reply from: SueYu

I see something wrong with it when it is used as a method of birth control. A woman who is on her 5th abortion, for example, because she doesn't like to take pills (they make her gain weight), she doesn't like to insist on a condom (likes the "natural" feel without one), thinks contraceptive foams, jellies and sponges are gross, etc., in other words, she has an excuse for not using any type of BC out there. Instead, she has sex indiscriminately and if she gets pregnant, she just heads for the clinic. That is grossly irresponsible, wouldn't you say?

reply from: Allizdog2000

Easier Said than Done

This was the only recourse of action SueYe had. That child paid for the sins of the father. SueYe is Guiltless in this situation.

If I came accross a situation of a woman, girl or boy being raped, I would beat the hell out of them, then put two in their chest and one in their head, without remorse and with extreme prejudice. I wouldn't look at myself or any of you differently if you did the same thing. Would it be considered abortion, if one you stopped a rapists before he ejaculated, when he could have or was close to?

The problem we have in this Nation and with the States, Rapist deserve the death penalty.

reply from: ChristianLott

Let me clear this up and remove all doubt.

You were wondering why it seems like we aren't falling over ourselves trying to console you and you said the reason you believe this is because we care more for the pre born baby than we do you.

Not so.

I've said it twice and let's make this the third and final time.

WE WANT TO LOVE YOU BOTH.

That is your answer. Now enough clipping comments and dodging our responses to your own questions. We know YOU don't care, but WE do - not JUST about you - about BOTH of you.

reply from: theflyingpen

I'm not sure what religion you hail from yodavater, but mine's Christianity. In it there's this really awesome guy named Jesus who knew everyone around him made mistakes, but he loved them anyway. He also believed in second chances, and forgiveness. And enlightenment (I think this is our job).

But no one would be willing to listen or believe you if you show them no compassion. That is not how Jesus got people to love God. That is not how we will get people to love 'fetuses.'

Then again, you might not adhere to the same beliefs as I do.

As I quoted above, you've assumed I'm showing compassion "because she has killed her own child" -- this is a gross assumption on your part. I can feel compassion for someone who was brutally attacked and taken advantage of, and who felt the only way to get over this traumatic experience was by terminating her pregnancy. Even if I see her abortion as a mistake, I have to consider what she'd been put through and the new perspective she was seeing her life from.

She was obviously a victim here, along with her dead child. You have thrown all blame upon her - when the true people who deserve it are the ones who put her in that position and brought that child into the world through their own wickedness.

Not all people see as clearly as you and I do the humanity of fetuses. Yelling at them and calling them names, or even putting them all the time on the defensive, will not bring them any closer to the truth, or even make them want to listen to you.

I'm sorry people have taken advantage of your caring for women in this situation before; if that is the case, it's on their shoulders - not yours for showing compassion to 'fakers.'

And suggesting that I feel compassion for murderers, who have no incentive or motive for their crimes in place of the victim of their crimes is cruel.

SueYu obviously saw herself in a defensive position; to her, the attack was continued by this added insult of a pregnancy. Though we may not see it as she did, she believed the child was a menace to her and to society, and better dead than alive.

Even in our country, when a person kills another in what they believe to be self-defense, they are forgiven. If you were alone, and you felt someone was near you trying to take your life away (as SueYu felt of this unborn baby), would you just let them?

It is human nature to feel safe and protected; at the time, SueYu felt this abortion would do that for her.

reply from: ChristianLott

No doubt.

Kill the rapist not an innocent child.

It's all this anti God rhetoric that fuels these existenz situations.

Think all morals are opinions? There's no true right and wrong?

Then abortion is okay but...rape? Oh, well now you've gone too far!

reply from: theflyingpen

I would definitely say it's grossly irresponsible.

But do you feel this way because a life is being snuffed out irresponsibly, without any real incentive, such as you believe your case held?

Why is it more irresponsible to get abortions than to use birth control - both eventually end up with the same effect - no children. Even pro-choicers who don't believe a fetus is a human until birth generally look down upon women who solely depend on abortion as birth control...

I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I'm wondering if they're realizing that children are being snuffed out, even if it's before they're "human"....

Is it this unnecessary loss of life that you look down on?

reply from: Skippy

WOW. I just gained a ton of respect for you, dude.

reply from: yoda

From what I've read, most women who are impregnated by rapists bear the child and raise it. Is that not a course of action?

I don't think guilt is the main point here, I think such situations are simply tragic all around. No child should have to pay for his father's or anyone else's guilt, but there are times when rage prevents us from thinking clearly and logically. It's a fact of life that we strike out at the wrong target sometimes, without thinking about the fact that two wrongs don't make a right.

reply from: yoda

I claim no religion, and no religion claims me...... agnostic.

You've gone from a specific example I gave to a general statement that I show no one any compassion. That's an illogical leap to a conclusion.

No, not really...... I was speaking about aborting women in general, and perhaps you were still discussing the other poster in particular...... in this case you went from a general to a specific and we did not communicate very well.

Now you are making a false accusation. I threw no "blame" on anyone, and I certainly did not acquit the rapists in her story of "blame".

My goal is to convince them to see the humanity of human fetuses, because anything less than that is a lie and a viscous one. I did not "yell", or "call names", or put anyone "on the defensive". In point of fact, that poster was closer to doing those things in her posts than I was. I think you need to look a little closer at what you're accusing me of before you start preaching at me.

Sure it is, and I did no such thing. I asked you if you felt compassion for certain criminals, and I expected you to say "no", and then tell me why you saw a difference between a killer of a born child and a woman aborting her child. If you could do that, then perhaps you could see my point.

And you have yet to challenge her characterization of her unborn baby as a "demon", do I take it that you agree with that label?

I saw nothing in her post that indicated a feeling of a threat to her life from the baby, only a feeling of rage and hatred.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Why was it the happiest day of your life? What about your wedding day? Your child's birthday or first birthday? High School or College graduation? Day you started a job you loved?

reply from: sarah

I hope it never happens again, to anyone.

Of course, what you had growing in your womb, in fact, was as human as the daughter you gave birth to sometime later.
I'm sure you are aware there are women who have become pregnant via rape and have actually kept their children. Do you view these human beings living and breating and going about life as only "born" animals? I think you may come up against some rather incensed mothers and children to espouse such beliefs to them.

I don't make judgments of who goes to hell or who doesn't. So, I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to say this to me, unless you have painted all pro-lifers with the same broad brush.

Let me say this, I do feel what you experienced, if ture was un-fair, un-warranted and you were indeed the victim of one of the most brutal crimes imaginable. And I'm exceedingly sorry for anyone who is a victim of such brutality.
But, please don't be surprised when you hear pro-lifers view that there were two victims.

reply from: Adonaismom

So great, you are no different than the scum that raped you! You have proved that beautifully with the obvious scorn you shown for the other women that might've been raped after you, since you did nothing to put them away and since you so callously killed an innocent party. Your child didn't rape you, but hey I am glad you feel so much better. You have no heart.

reply from: Hereforareason

Sue, I just want to mention that there are people out there making up horrid stories like yours. A women is being prosecuted right now in MI for filing a false report about being rapped along an intersection. That was rotton. It makes it harder to know what the truth is. I have already unfortunatly run into some heart wrenching stories that later couldn't be proved. They are out there. It can be a sick world we live in sometimes.

Oh, I wanted to ask a question. Have you heard about the Pedophiles being covered by planned parenthood? What is your take on that?

Amber

reply from: SueYu

You didn't? I'll post it again for you, then:

In addition, I'd like to point out that pregnancy is strenuous on a woman's body. Having never been pregnant before, I did not know what effect it would have on me. Miscarriage runs heavy in my family...my mother miscarried four times, the last time she bled so bad she needed transfusions and even then she almost died. Was I ready to put my life at risk for this "child" that was a result of such a vicious act against my will? My answer was absolutely not. As it is, 10 years later I gave birth to my daughter under compromised health circumstances. I've been advised not to have any more children. What if I had given birth to the grotesque "rape child" and then had been unable to give birth to my and my husband's beautiful daughter??



You are right, Alliz. I retract that statement. All of the things you mentioned were truly happy days for me, not the day of the abortion. That, I suppose you could say, was the day I finally began to put the trauma of the experience behind me and began living again.

If a woman who was raped and brutalized and half-murdered wishes to bear the seed of her rapist, that is her decision. My decision was "NO".

Perhaps because I've read it often on this board, that "proaborts" are going to hell. If you did not directly say it, then I apologize.

Thank you for saying so.

I'm not surprised. I've heard it quite often right here on this thread. It's just not how I look at it.

Sarah...where is your outrage at Adonaismom, who posted the above after "reading" my entire experience and then passing judgment on me? Actually, she didn't even bother to read my entire experience before passing judgment, else she would've read that I did my best to give the police descriptions of the men, the car, what they did to me (what I could remember, anyway, before they nearly beat my brains out of my head). I suppose she thinks I should've just killed myself in self-defense before they could rape and brutalize me. Adonaismom, since you passed judgment on me, here is a bitter judgment for you: I pray to God that you have no daughters, for with that attitude of yours, they'd be better off living in a harem in Saudi Arabia. This may be news to you, but it takes more than just passing a child through the birth canal to rightfully be called "mother".

I know there are women who "cry wolf", not just on the internet but in real life. And not just about rape, but about other situations. The most recent is that idiot from Georgia who claimed she was abducted but in reality chickened out of her wedding.

Pedophiles being covered by planned parenthood? I saw a topic about it on this board, and I breezed through it, but I'm not an activist of any kind, pro or con. I am just a victim relating her experience. If pedophiles are being covered by planned parenthood, obviously I am not too thrilled with that.

reply from: sarah

That's not what I asked you. I asked you if you view the children born of rape as animals?

Thank you for the apology, as I have never said anything like that.

I don't critique every post, the ones I agree with or don't agree with. I don't even read every post in every thread. She's entitled to her opinion and she alone must stand by what she wrote. You need to ask her those questions.

But, I would appreciate it if you would answer my question. Thanks.

reply from: SueYu

I don't know any personally. But my automatic reaction is utter disdain. To put it plainly, if my best friend was brutally raped, lived to tell the tale and became pregnant, decided to have the child, and then asked me to be godmother, I would tell her an unequivocal NO. I would not stand godmother to the product of a brutal assault, no matter how "innocent" the child. Sorry. I'm "entitled to my opinion". Right? So...yes. Children born of rape are as animals to me, because they carry the seed of their stinking animalistic fathers. Consider your question answered.

I see. This woman is "entitled to her opinion" and she must not be chastised for passing such a harsh judgment, and a wrong judgment at that.

In turn, I am entitled to my opinion that with her attitude, a cat would make a better mother than she. Correct?

reply from: yoda

So you asked a doctor to examine you, and he/she said that it would be risky, right? Or did you just rely on "family history"? And that was your basis for your "fear"?

reply from: yoda

That's YOUR conclusion, not anyone else's. You've had no problem expressing your opinion up to now, why do you insist that one of us do the "chastising'?

reply from: Helenrose234

I AM a "rape child" - the one category of human being most "pro-life" groups don't mind sacrificing for political correctness.
Like hell! My right to exist is as absolute as anyone's. If you want to kill someone, shoot my father.

reply from: Helenrose234

I AM a "rape child", now 57. I am of the category most"pro-life" groups would sacrifice for political correctness and gain.If you wish to punish someone for the rape, go shoot my father; one of the 4 men who raped my mom.

reply from: sarah

Then you freely admit you are a prejudiced person. You've allowed, IMO the rapists to cause a severe character flaw.

Where did I say she must not be chastised? If you feel she needs it, then why do you expect me do that?
For purposes of clarity on this subject, I didn't agree with Allizdog's assesment, do you want me to chastise him too? Or does the fact that he exonerates your behavior entitle him to a pass?

Again, why are you wasting your time telling me these things? You are having that conversation with the wrong person. Do you expect me to agree with your assesment? Why should I have to do such a thing?

reply from: ChristianLott

You mean most RINO republicans and 'moderate conservatives'.

As far as I know RTL and Pro life welcome children of rape. Bush and his -Republican In Name Only- friends support the murder of innocent children of rape.

Thank you for speaking up, the *rape-victim-turned-child-murdering-pro-abort* just claimed:

As she was just chastising ME for my lack of sensitivity....

reply from: yoda

What on EARTH are you talking about? It's the PROABORTS that are willing to sacrifice you, most prolifers do not support abortion in cases of rape.

p.s. it's a bad idea to post your real name online

reply from: sarah

What pro-life groups? I know there are individuals, but they are beyond wrong.

A true pro-life group/individual is against abortion, save for the RARE instance when the mother would surely die if she gave birth. Two deaths goes against the pro-life stance.

I agree completely, your right to exist is as absolutle as anyone's, just as you have said.

And welcome to the forum.

reply from: Hereforareason

I wouldn't even say that. I didn't know until recently what the answer to that was. When I found it, I couldn't believe I hadn't thought about it. If the Mother's life is in seriouse danger then a c section can be done and the child treated like a patient. If it dies, they did everything they could and do not have innocent blood on their hands, or the mother's concience. But an abortion is taking a life.

Amber

reply from: Hereforareason

I wouldn't even say that. I didn't know until recently what the answer to that was. When I found it, I couldn't believe I hadn't thought about it. If the Mother's life is in seriouse danger then a c section can be done and the child treated like a patient. If it dies, they did everything they could and do not have innocent blood on their hands, or the mother's concience. But an abortion is taking a life.

Amber

reply from: sarah

I wouldn't even say that. I didn't know until recently what the answer to that was. When I found it, I couldn't believe I hadn't thought about it. If the Mother's life is in seriouse danger then a c section can be done and the child treated like a patient. If it dies, they did everything they could and do not have innocent blood on their hands, or the mother's concience. But an abortion is taking a life.

Amber

Thanks for the correction. I hadn't hear it that way either, till now.

reply from: Skippy

Is that true? I was always under the impression that most Hatfields do think there should be an exception for rape victims.

By the by, why do you so willingly accept the story of this alleged "rape child"? She could be just another internut, you know.

reply from: sarah

The majority of pro-life advocates do not support abortion due to rape. There are exceptions.

You willingly accepted Sue Yu's story. Unless you know Sue Yu personally, she too could be another "internut".

reply from: Skippy

I also accept this person's story. I was merely making sport of the double standard again.

reply from: SueYu

I answered your twice-repeated question, Sarah. It is now my choice to answer no further questions from you.

I could ask a question of you. But I will spare you the pain and embarrassment of having to answer it. Which is something you apparently could not afford me.

I believe you, Sarah, were one of the ones here who instantly questioned my motives for posting my experience. In fact, what you said was: I'm sure part of that is for attention and to "set up" a chance to vindicate your feelings about abortion and those who opppose abortion on demand. This isn't a forum set up for therapy (much needed, no doubt) for rape victims.

Yet Helenrose's story is accepted unquestioningly as Gospel. By you and the (Christian?) "ChristianLott". Very peculiar.

Yodavater..."family history" to use your quotation marks as if it means nothing...means something indeed. Ask any physician, or look on any admittance or patient information form. If "family history" means nothing, then I guess the extensive questioning on such forms about family history for such diseases as cancer, diabetes, Parkinson's, to name just a few, is there merely for the titillation of a bean counter.

Following the birth of my daughter, in which I struggled with preeclampsia, which caused her to be induced a month premature, I was strongly advised that having another child could very well kill both of us. Thus...it follows that had I given this "sacred child" of a rape life...my daughter could've died in my womb. And me as well. So then. Knowing this...do you really think I ought to regret denying the seed of a rapist life? If you do, I advise you not to hold your breath to hear this expression of regret from me.

Because you are extremely quick to chastise those who may not have responded to you in particular, but you jump in and chastise anyway, because you disagree with or do not like their viewpoint. Why do you not extend this same courtesy to do this for "proaborts" as you like to call them? Why the double standard here and with regard to believing certain new posters instantly and suspecting others of lying instantly, all based solely on your viewpoint?

reply from: ChristianLott

I questioned your reasoning behind posting it:

Can I ask that question? Is that legit?

Many people have questioned my own story.

...just like many question my name. I'm sure you're familiar....(Christian?) - (SueYu?) - (Jerk?)

Do you question my spiritual beliefs out of spite or do you honestly believe Christ or Marry would murder a pre born for whatever reason?

reply from: SueYu

Why not? There are various pro-lifers here that I've noticed, from those who believe abortion should be banned in all cases except rape, incest, and the health of the mother, all the way to the extremists like yourself and a few others who believe a woman should be forced to carry their fetuses to term no matter if she's giving birth to a hated rapist's spawn, or to the child of her own father, or if she is doomed to die in the process. I've read many things on this forum, all supporting the extremist point of view. I thought it was important to interject a non-extremist point of view from someone who has lived through the ordeal.

How do you know for sure that Mary didn't "murder" a preborn or that Christ would've stood staunchly against a woman terminating her pregnancy? Did you live during the time of Christ or Mary to give a living testimonial of it today? Mark 14:21 says quite emphatically: "For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born."

Sounds like Jesus is saying that Judas would've been better off had his mother aborted him. Doesn't it?

reply from: sarah

I only asked you why you were expecting me to answer for what someone else posted and why you picked one over the other to question me about. If you don't want to answer, fine.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't even make sense. If you don't want to answer a question, all you have to do is say so. And just a little reminder, when someone posts intimate personal information, or even just opinions on a public forum, questions are to be expected.

And your point?

Well, let this be a lesson to me. I'm given grief for questioning you, then when I refrain from doing that to this mysterious sudden visitor who just happens to have been born from rape, I get the same grief.
Darned if I do and darned if I don't. And just to further illustrate my point, I did indeed question her popping up here with someone else, via PM.
Something's a little fishy if you ask me.

I also found it odd how you suddenly become a member here just in time when an "historian" is needed to defend Hitler's so called love of animals.

Guess in the future I'll just allow myself the privilege of speaking my doubts everytime, rather then ever giving the benefit.

reply from: ChristianLott

Let's back off the personal attacks!!

Let's stick to the truth, Mr Moderator!

reply from: sarah

At the risk of being berated for questiong your motives, but surely you don't believe that is what Jesus was saying here do you?

Judas had the same free will we all do, he could have chosen not to betray Jesus. It was because of his choice and the consequenses that would follow, Jesus uses the illustration of better not to have been born. NOT to give his approval of abortion.

Jesus also said:

Luke 17:2 - It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

He's illustarting that the penalites for doing these things are going to be very severe.

The operative word in both instances is "better".

reply from: Amy

How do you know for sure that Mary didn't "murder" a preborn or that Christ would've stood staunchly against a woman terminating her pregnancy? Did you live during the time of Christ or Mary to give a living testimonial of it today? Mark 14:21 says quite emphatically: "For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that one by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that one not to have been born."

Sounds like Jesus is saying that Judas would've been better off had his mother aborted him. Doesn't it?

LOL...no...for those of us who can read and comprehend that means Judas would suffer for his wrong...and woe to him. The choice he made would find Judas in saddness for the life he had given up.

reply from: Hereforareason

Q]Pedophiles being covered by planned parenthood? I saw a topic about it on this board, and I breezed through it, but I'm not an activist of any kind, pro or con. I am just a victim relating her experience. If pedophiles are being covered by planned parenthood, obviously I am not too thrilled with that.

You might then be interested in listening to these tapes. http://traditionalvalues.org/1/pph/

Amber

reply from: SueYu

I hope you all don't mind if I read and comprehend the Bible without your various interpretations of it? Thanks.

In addition, by "little ones", Jesus was referring to the children who were born.

"ChristianLott"'s comment I will just ignore for being what it usually is. Inane. And yes, that is "my opinion" of it.

reply from: yoda

In my experience it is true for the majority, yes.

I don't accept it or reject it. I prefer to comment on such stories in the same vein as if they were hypothetical examples.

reply from: yoda

Ah, so you did not seek the advice of a physican before your abortion. Did you do so before the birth of your child?

I'm glad you are so attentive to my posts. I will continue to post as I see fit.

reply from: chooselife

If you are reading this post and you were raped, or were the product of a rape please check out the website www.stigmatized.org - As they put it....Stigma is a support group dedicated to providing support for individuals conceived by rape and incest, to the women pregnant by these types of assault. STIGMA aims to eradicate stereotypes and misconceptions about this population. STIGMA also aims to educate the public on awareness of the prevalance (and the reality) of pregnancies resulting from rape and incest, and supporting those human beings resulting from those pregnancies.

Sue Yu- Let me first say that my heart aches for you that you had to endure such a horrific ordeal. I believe before that you mentioned you were a historian. Are you familiar that Frederick Douglass was a product of rape?? In many cases, rape conception was common in slave days -- Are all children born from these lines "animals"?? I believe you are speaking through pain and hatred that were never resolved.

reply from: SueYu

Of course I had to seek the advice of a physician "before my abortion". I was brought to the hospital half-dead and bleeding, remember? Apparently you don't remember, so I'll refresh your rather poor memory.

Before I even knew I was pregnant by the rapist(s), I had to undergo an extensive internal examination to see just how badly the animals had ripped my vagina and labia apart. 34 stitches to the area were performed.

I do hope this graphic description will finally answer your ridiculous and self-righteous question(s). And if they do not, ask me if I am concerned about it.

So am I, since you apparently are not and frequently forget what you posted previously.

As will I.

To me, they are the product of a forced and animalistic union. It's quite simple. I don't know what is not understandable about this. Do I advocate mandatory abortion for all rape-pregnancies? No. There are women who want the product of their attacker to be nurtured in their wombs. That's their prerogative. Do I want abortion to be a legal choice in case there are women like me who do not wish to have the filthy seed of a rapist-animal growing inside them? Absolutely.

reply from: yoda

My question was about your ability to bear a child, not your wounds. An emergency room doctor treating you for wounds would have no reason to be concerned with your ability to bear children, as he wouldn't even know you were pregnant, would he? Did you or did you not consult a doctor about your ability to bear a child before you aborted it? And did you do so before the birth of the child you kept?

To me, they are the product of a forced and animalistic union..
This isn't my quote, but I can't resist a comment. Do you propose to tell us that there is some spiritual reason why a child of rape is "evil"? How does that work?

reply from: sarah

Then you won't mind if others reject your interpertations of it either, I'm sure.

Did you delibertley ignore the fact that I said the opertaive word was "better"?

reply from: SueYu

I did consult a doctor about my ability to bear the "child" before I aborted it. Several, in fact. I was told that because of the serious injuries to my cervix, vagina and labia, I would very likely have not been able to hold the pregnancy to term. In short, I was told there was a high probability that I would miscarry. Not a definite YES I WOULD MISCARRY. But a "high probability".

I did consult a doctor before I became pregnant with my daughter. Again, several. After 10 years' time, the healing was complete, except for scar tissue. I was informed that "in all likelihood" I could carry the child to term, but that because of the prior injuries and my "family history", there was still a 50% possibility of a miscarriage. I took the chance and succeeded. But not without preeclampsia and induced labor.

Would you be so kind as to provide me with your gynecological/obstetrical credentials, please?

You can endeavor to figure this one out by yourself, if you can, that is. I'm through answering your "questions".

reply from: Tam

I just want to say that I for one do not think a child of rape is any different from any other child. I am going to repeat in this post something I wrote back in March, but it applies to this as well. It was in response to someone saying we shouldn't dismiss those pregnancies resulting from rape.

Tam

reply from: Tam

I wouldn't even say that. I didn't know until recently what the answer to that was. When I found it, I couldn't believe I hadn't thought about it. If the Mother's life is in seriouse danger then a c section can be done and the child treated like a patient. If it dies, they did everything they could and do not have innocent blood on their hands, or the mother's concience. But an abortion is taking a life.

Amber

I agree with Amber. If the child dies as a side effect of a procedure employed in an emergency to save the mom's life, it's a tragedy. Killing a child should never be done intentionally. How can anyone disagree with this and continue to use the term "pro-life" to describe him/herself? I'm not saying that rhetorically--does anyone fit that category, and if so, please comment.

reply from: Tam

I'd just like to say that considering an unborn child a "demon" and rejoicing at his or her destruction is definitely an extremist point of view. I strongly suspect that if a poll were taken of those women who have become pregnant by rape, your view would be an extremist view among that group. Among the population as a whole, it is even more rare, I imagine.

reply from: sarah




SueYu
Member

Posts: 32
Joined: 06/10/2005
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said anything about not associating with "men who brutalize and rape women",
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, I did a cut a paste in order to take this to the proper thread. It's unfair for Allizdog to have his thread highjacked.

Well, thanks for clearing that up. I don't read minds, so it would have been impossible for me to know they were one in the same in your view.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And do let me know where I gave any sympathy to the attackers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's absurd. It was explained to you why it was "questioned", but of course that is no matter to you as it doesn't serve your purpose.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how about lightening up on the drama, okay?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I'm starting to question your age or at least maturity level.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
these people are perfectly innocent of their circumstances
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, there's that handy "broad brush". It does come out when it's convient, I've noticed.
Naturally, it's also handy to have around when there's a need to give an insult.

Look, it's you and only you that have voiced a distinct prejudice twoards a certain segment of society.
Nice try though, at trying to bring others along with your "analogy". But, for clear thinking people it's not going to work as any kind of a diversion for your obvious prejudice.


reply from: ChristianLott

And there you have it.

reply from: ChristianLott

Maybe Sue would like the right for all women who are victims of rape who do not get pregnant be allowed to murder a random adult 'demon spawn'?

reply from: theflyingpen

Ah, the wonderful, wonderful world of online blogging.

You've gone from a specific example I gave to a general statement that I show no one any compassion. That's an illogical leap to a conclusion.

Forgive me if I overlooked any respect or mercy in your posts. Sometimes I read too fast.

No, not really...... I was speaking about aborting women in general, and perhaps you were still discussing the other poster in particular...... in this case you went from a general to a specific and we did not communicate very well.

I thought this thread was about women who abort in the cases of rape, where, though we see it as the wrong choice, there is a greater impetus for this decision than in regular birth control cases or more selfish reasons. Again, forgive me if I'm mistaken.

Now you are making a false accusation. I threw no "blame" on anyone, and I certainly did not acquit the rapists in her story of "blame".

Perhaps I interpreted your lack of blame for the rapists as lack of compassion for this poster. I apologize for the assumption.

My goal is to convince them to see the humanity of human fetuses, because anything less than that is a lie and a viscous one. I did not "yell", or "call names", or put anyone "on the defensive". In point of fact, that poster was closer to doing those things in her posts than I was. I think you need to look a little closer at what you're accusing me of before you start preaching at me.

A lot of posters on this board have been calling names, and though yelling is hard to convey in Blogspeak, harder tones are able to be sensed. If you yourself did not do these things, than the comment does not refer to you. I apologize.

But SueYu's responses to your posts have been defensive, so she has sensed something in the tone of your posts which has put up arms. Again, if I'm misinterpreting, forgive me.

Sure it is, and I did no such thing. I asked you if you felt compassion for certain criminals, and I expected you to say "no", and then tell me why you saw a difference between a killer of a born child and a woman aborting her child. If you could do that, then perhaps you could see my point.

If you are equalizing a murderer of born children to a woman who has been raped and aborts her child, then I am missing your point.

I do feel compassion for certain criminals, when I feel their actions have a significant correlation to their misfortunes; though the crime is wrong in itself, other issues do complicate the matter. One can see the reasons a starving man steals food easier and more understandibly than if a rich man steals food, but in the end they both did steal the food.

And you have yet to challenge her characterization of her unborn baby as a "demon", do I take it that you agree with that label?

Because I am able to see why she believes her unborn baby was a demon does not mean that I believe her unborn baby was a demon. I also do not believe I've told her that I felt she made the right choice in any of my previous posts.

Funny how we can completely agree important topics and completely disagree on the mechanics of the discussion.

reply from: theflyingpen

Without Judas' necessary betrayal, we of the Christian faith would be without a hope. If Jesus had never been sacrificed for our sins...well, that'd be a horrible world indeed.

Off topic, just had to comment.

reply from: ChristianLott

Or maybe she can just chase those rape victims with a baseball bat to 'make sure' they don't deliver any 'demon spawns'?

reply from: theflyingpen

I'm trying to look at this biologically, and it doesn't make much sense. The desire/ability/need to rape women or men, or to brutalize people in general, is not passed along in genes.

A parent's personality is not encoded in their genes; though genes may give a person a higher disposition towards being happy all the time, or angry all the time - they do not effect the way this person decides to make moral decisions, or immoral ones, for that matter.

Oh I would hate it if I were exactly like my parents in that sense!

It just doesn't fit that the child of a rapist will therefore be a rapist.

reply from: yoda

Yes, if you will show me where I claimed any.

I don't blame you. That's a tough question.

reply from: yoda

Sad, isn't it, that those things have to be said.

reply from: yoda

Yes, or maybe start an organization to execute all rape babies, no matter how old?

reply from: yoda

What if that same woman who has been raped bears the child, and then kills it as soon as it's born? Do they then "equalize" as you put it? How is the unborn child of rape any less worthy of life than a born child? What is the moral difference between the life of that unborn child of rape and that born child?

And the woman who aborts her child, is she the rich man or the poor man?

To call an innocent unborn baby a "demon" is so outrageous that I can't fathom how a prolifer can remain silent.

Indeed. I try to respect the mechanics that other prolifers use, even when I disagree with them, or think them counterproductive. If I can lead by example, that may be useful without being destructive.

reply from: theflyingpen

What if that same woman who has been raped bears the child, and then kills it as soon as it's born?

Then there is still the horrible tragedy of a lost child in the world - abortion or no. And the mother is still guilty of causing that loss.

A murderer who kills their victims in cold blood still has none of the hatred or scorn a raped woman might hold for her child. I feel like we're arguing motives vs. action - the action of the killing is equal and the result of the death is the same; the motives are most certainly not.

Fortunately, our country at least still sees newborns as valueable, and according to the state, she would be penalized for child abuse and murder - the same as any murderer. Unfortunately, pre-birth children do not seem as valueable to our government as they are to me.

In the sense that they have both taken a life (abortion or right after birth), they are equalized (in my eyes, not the government's).

In the sense that they had completely different motives, they are not equal.

I can acknowledge that a woman's desire, or seemingly necessity, to abort exists in this world. I cannot let them think I condone such an action, or support their 'right' to do so.

He is not any less worthy; there is none, in my eyes.

Ah, this again. Is this about women who abort in general? Or just rape victims? I would say that a woman who aborts just because she can - for her own selfish reasons (irresponsibility, refusal to use birth control, out of lack of desire for motherhood...the list goes on) would be the rich man. Why does he need to steal bread when he has everything he could desire? It's hard to understand, and angers a lot of people.

The woman who has been raped, who is a victim of pressure from a source such as a boyfriend or parent or friend - they who are being continuously told there is no way they can live normally if they have this child - are the poor man. They steal the bread because for whatever reason they 'know' or feel they have to and have no other choice.

In the end, there is still less bread in the world - both parties are guilty of the same crime - but the motives of one allow me to feel more compassion for the poor man than the rich one.

And I, personally, love little breads, no matter how they were conceived.

reply from: sarah

Yes, or maybe start an organization to execute all rape babies, no matter how old?

The sad part and rather scary as well, is that taken to it's logical conculsion this would not be out of the realm of possibility.
Prejudice has been known to lead to violence, history bares that out.

reply from: SueYu

Oh my Lord, talk about "putting words in my mouth". Once again, Sarah, I notice no chastising coming from your mouth to Lott's inane ear for putting his gross words in my mouth. Very typical. Please show me where I stated that all rape babies should be "executed". Thanks everso.

Most...not all of you by any means...on this board have shown yourselves to be a group of deaf hardliners, even when it comes to the victims of criminal assault. All you show concern about is the "life" that I ended inside me...the damnable seed of a rapist, that is ALL it is/was. And had it been born, that is all it ever WOULD'VE been to me...a daily reminder of the brutality of the crime against me. I could've never, nor would I have ever, loved it.

You make me feel ill with your rhetoric about the "innocent baby". It was NOT conceived innocently. It was not conceived IN LOVE. It was not conceived in MARRIAGE. It was not a blessing "sent by God". It did not happen "by accident". I believe it was a CURSE sent by God's alter ego, aka the "devil". It was forced upon me by an ANIMAL who almost killed me. It was conceived via FORCE and BRUTALITY. Thus, it is not "innocent". Thus I had no regrets about ending its "life". In addition, and for all of your talk like you all are some "supreme authority" in just about everything, did you not know that psychiatric disorders, including those that can absolutely lead a person stricken with shizophrenia to commit brutal rape AND murder, are indeed passed down via genes? For God's sake! Alcoholism has been shown to be predisposed in "drinking families"! You disbelieve that MENTAL ILLNESS can not also be? You truly are living by your own set of rules!!

You put me on the defensive immediately after my first post about this. I've had to defend myself left and right to your disgusting attacks on my character here. Not one of you asked a single question about the REAL joy of my life...my daughter...who may have never arrived on this earth had I given birth to the "demon seed", and that is EXACTLY what it was. Not one of you asked what color hair my daughter has, is she in school, is she happy, what does she like to play with, what are her favorite cartoon characters. All you ever badgered me with were questions and statements about how "horrible" I was to abort the demon seed, and that I am "going to hell". I am glad I did it. If I ever had the double misfortune of being brutalized again, I would abort again. Instantly. With no compunction whatsoever. But...if it ever happens to me again, I will pray hard that they kill me this time. In fact, I will beg them to do it. I could never go through this a second time.

You don't care one fig about children/mothers already on this earth. All you care about is forcing women who are the victims of rape and incest to procreate against their will and against everything they believe in. That is grotesque. You think I'm grotesque? Question America. You will find out that you are the grotesque extremists, not I.

Stay here on this board for "a couple years"? You are joking, surely. Whyever would I do that? So you can make me your official "Proabort" Punching Bag?

I think not!

reply from: Christian4life

Oh my gosh. I can't believe you can sit there and justify putting your hatred and vengeance on that child. Talk about messed up. You need to see a psychiatrist, and stop listening to your Nazi crap about how evil behavior is genetic. That's exactly what Hitler believed, and why he wanted to get rid of the Jewish "seed". Yes they performed abortions on people in the concentration camps, for the exact same reason as you had yourself, the parent is a Jew, or the parent is a rapist. Same diff. They believed it was passed on in the genes. The fact is, no matter how that child was concieved, YOU do not have the authority to tell us that child would have grown up to be like his father. That is pure speculation, and you just killed someone who might have defied that very prejudice. I believe in forgiveness, but not for people who won't admit what they did was wrong.

Secondly, last time I was here, I thought it was you who was talking about giving thier daughter up for adoption and not even seeing her, so why would I ask about someone you said you don't even see? If I am wrong and that was someone else with the same avatar, I apologize, but I thought it was you.

Besides, this is not a let's sit and chat and love/hate/accuse everyone forum. It's a pro-life forum. Stay on topic.

reply from: Tam

I can see that you are very upset, but let's try to be rational.

Oh my Lord, talk about "putting words in my mouth". Once again, Sarah, I notice no chastising coming from your mouth to Lott's inane ear for putting his gross words in my mouth. Very typical. Please show me where I stated that all rape babies should be "executed". Thanks everso.

It's true that you didn't say that. Sarah didn't say you had--she implied that to do so would be a logical extension of your stated beliefs. Do I need to quote for you your own statements about the child you aborted being an animal, a demon, etc? Where you said the child of a rapist and the rapist himself are one and the same in your eyes? Do you fail to see why, if your beliefs were the norm, execution of all children of rape would not be beyond the realm of possibility?

I would normally doubt that last statement, but in your case, you are so full of hatred that I do not doubt that you would be capable of failing to love your own child because of his or her father's actions. Unfortunately, the "seed" is most assuredly NOT all that was within you. That seed combined with YOUR egg to form YOUR child. It was YOUR CHILD that was killed in the abortion, not some random sperm. Perhaps you would never have been able to love that child. On Oprah the other day there was a segment about baby rape. One woman doctor who treated an infant victim of horrible gang rape (I can't print the details here--it would be too much for people--but if you're interested, I'm sure there's stuff on the Oprah site) ended up adopting that little girl, who is a happy toddler today thanks to the unconditional love of that wonderful doctor. Those victims of baby rape are often abandoned and unloved. Those little children are victims of rape, and they are being ignored and marginalized in their culture, because it is so hard for people to handle the subject that it's easier to ignore them. Children of rape are in a similar position in some ways. They, too, are rape victims. Like you and like the babies being raped by those who believe it will cure them of AIDS. Those children are no less human than you are, and the children born of rape are no less human than those children--in other words, your child was no more an animal or a demon than you, yourself, are. He or she was a victim, like you. A victim deserving and needing compassion and love, not rejection and death.

The circumstances of your conception do not define who you are. They never have, and they never will.

Many children are conceived outside of marriage. They are no less worthy of life than you or your children (the one you allowed to live, and the one you did not--your daughter's sister or brother).

Perhaps it was, but you simply did not realize it at the time.

Your child was not conceived deliberately, unless the purpose of your rape was to impregnate you. Otherwise, I am sure your rapist would consider the child an accident. He or she was certainly not conceived "on purpose".

I am sorry that you believe you have been cursed by the devil. I don't share that belief system, I guess. I am just trying to look at the situation with loving objectivity. I don't believe you have been cursed by some netherworld figure. I'm sorry if you believe that's the reality with which you're dealing.

As much of a monster as a rapist is, he is still a human being. You were not raped by a lion or a horse. Your child was human, just like you and your rapist. Some humans are criminals. I'm sorry your first child was fathered by a criminal. That doesn't make the child--or the criminal--an animal. I understand that you are hurt and angry, and if you were calling your rapist an "animal" for some purpose OTHER than to justify killing your child, I wouldn't even call you on it. But to use the word "animal" as though it meant that the father of your first child was actually an animal, in order to justify calling your child an animal--that's just wrong. Surely you know that neither was an animal, although your rapist behaved like a monster. I think it is really an insult to animals to use that term, anyway. I don't think an animal would have done to you, ever, what those human beings did. Humans are capable of so much hurt--and you were the victim of humans. Your child, another victim, was also human.

Do you truly believe that a child carries guilt for the actions of his or her parents? That's an interesting notion, and one that I believe you'll find little agreement with or evidence for. Do you truly believe that it is possible for a being who has yet to take any moral action (for good or for evil) can be considered guilty of anything--can be considered anything other than purely innocent? Your first child committed no sin--he or she didn't live long enough to commit any action, good or bad. How can he or she be guilty because of the circumstances around his/her conception?

Furthermore, many adults are children of rape--conceived via force and brutality. Do you feel those adults also carry the guilt of their fathers? Or does the guilt ever go away? You say that to you, these children and their fathers are one and the same. So you feel that they are guilty, forever, of their fathers' actions?

I don't believe anyone is trying to say that tendencies are not passed down through the genes. All anyone is, I think, trying to say is that it's wrong to punish one person for the actions of another person. It is only our own actions for which we are responsible. Do you disagree with that? You must, in order to place guilt on your first child for the actions of his/her father. If your second child's father sustained a head injury and became mentally unstable, then dangerously violent, would you consider your second child blameless since the "evil" tendencies came about as a result of the head injury and not from genetic predisposition? If so, how can you know that the reason your rapists raped you was that they had mental disorders caused genetically? You can't, of course. You don't know why you were raped or whether anything violent would be passed on to your child--and I maintain that there is no reason to believe that your child would have been a rapist, or the equivalent of one.

We don't pry for personal information. If one of us had asked that list of questions about your daughter, you'd have been right to be nervous about the person's motives. No one here asks, or answers, that sort of question, except in private messages or private topics. Plus--many of us have children, and these are not the topics we discuss. If you want to talk about that stuff, I'm sure there are several relevant forums. The fact that no one has asked you those absolutely, unequivocally irrelevant questions means absolutely nothing. I'm interested in how your daughter handles/will handle the idea that you had her brother or sister killed because you considered him or her "demon seed"--and still do.

Question: what if your best friend found out that she was adopted, that her mom gave her up for adoption because she was conceived by rape. Would your feelings for her change? Would you stop loving her? Stop associating with her entirely? Just wondering. If you KNOW your best friend just COULDN'T have been a child of rape--it's a hypothetical, ok? You don't have to tell me your best friend's hair color, favorite book, etc.

If it really were a demon you were destroying, I'd support you. Instantly. With no compunction whatsoever. But I think you know . . . there aren't really any such thing as demons masquerading as little babies.

That is a lie. As you surely knew even as you were typing it. You wrote this in anger, not in truth.

I'm sorry you're so miserable here and feel like a punching bag. When you start out with "I killed my demon child and I'm proud of it!" as an attitude, you must have expected some disagreement, vehement disagreement, with that perspective, didn't you? If not, what did you expect? Why did you come to this forum?

For whatever it's worth, now that you see how strongly I disagree with you about your first child, welcome to the forum.

Tam

reply from: chooselife

Sue Yu - The Bible tells us that only God can create life. It also says in Deuteronomy 24:16 - Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.

A person conceived through incest is included in the lineage of Jesus Christ: Genesis 38:13-26, Ruth 4:18-22, Matthew 1:3 and Luke 3:33.

Psalm 127:3 - Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward.

Matthew 18:10,14 - Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. . . . Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Ecclesiastes 11:5 - As you do not know what is the way of the wind, or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child, so you do not know the works of God who makes everything.

Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

reply from: sarah

I never said you did. Apparently you're uncomfortable with the logical conclusion I drew. Was that logical conclusion wrong? Is it not true that prejudice does lead to violence?
And once again, you have expected me to chastise others. We went over this in another post, have you forgot what I said, or did you not even read the post?

No one has asked you to love someone you obviously think you were incapable of, but there is the option of adoption. Someone else would have wanted to love your child.

I know you don't like logical conculsions. But, the fact of the matter is, if you take this statement to it's logical conculsion, we better set up some sort of way for couples to be screened for any and all character flaws, mental illness, and pre-dispositions to drug dependancy. That way we can be sure society is not contamidated with any deemed less fit human beings. Then, what do we do with all the human beings that are living and going about their lives? Shouldn't we round them up and make sure we dispose of them before they have the opportunity to act on what "genes" their parents passed down?

This sounds eerily familiar. Maragaret Sanger and Hitler were very much opposed to who they viewed as the "less fit" being given a change at life. Or the chance to overcome their "genes".

Are you familiar with a minister named James Robison? He's a "product" of rape. Though his mother gave him up for adoption. I'd say he overcame his father's genes quite nicely. And is contributing many worthwhile things to this world. He has a tremoundous outreach to the poorest and neediest that walk this planet.

Perhaps you should post with a disclaimer of sorts, and let us know what exactly you expect. I don't ask personal questions of people who post and expect them to do the same. Again, you've taken one persons statement and painted us all with the same broad brush. I have never said you were going to hell, and neither has anyone else but CL. I'm sure you're capable of dealing with that one on one.

Of course that's not true .And nobody has said you were "grotesque" to my knowledge. And if they did they should apologize. I am saying that your prejudice of a segment of society is ill founded and questionable at the very least.

reply from: SueYu

To all "hardliners" here:

Abortion is a legal option. Legal. Look that word up.

I was raped. Almost murdered. I became pregnant. I did not want the child. I loathed the child. I aborted it in its 5th week. I am glad I did it. I would do it again in the same circumstances. I suffer no guilt. I suffer no regret. I suffer no trauma over the "precious life" in my womb that I ended. I am glad that I did it.

I don't know how else I can keep saying this to all of you. You are doing your best to make me drown in guilt and it just isn't going to happen.

When I returned to the hospital to confirm my "pregnancy", no one...not one doctor...not one nurse...pleaded with me to "keep it". They saw my agitation, my revulsion, and when I announced I wanted an abortion as soon as possible, they arranged for me to have it with no question. No mouthings about sin or morality. No begging to spare the "innocent life" inside me. My mother...upon learning of my pregnancy...was repulsed. She too was glad when I had the abortion. As was my father. As were my friends. I had no boyfriend at the time. I was a virgin, remember?

I repeat, only hardliners like yourselves would force a raped and brutalized woman to nurture and bring to fruition the product of her attack. And that is what's truly sick.

reply from: Amy

You know...I hate to be the voice of cynisism...but if this person isn't the ACLU-abortion counselor-foster person then I'll eat a straw hat. The agenda is exact and the tone becomes more and more similar...the words and thought processes.

In any case, it's a good thing to see so many posters willing to try and help...to go beyond themselves and try to give rational and hope so a person could find peace. You all prove that the vast majority of pro-Life individuals are kind and concerned to anothers plight. It's a good thing to see.

reply from: sarah

Amy wrote:
"You know...I hate to be the voice of cynisism...but if this person isn't the ACLU-abortion counselor-foster person then I'll eat a straw hat. The agenda is exact and the tone becomes more and more similar...the words and thought processes"

Bingo!

Don't worry, we can have a nice dinner tonight without any straw involved.

reply from: Amy

"Bingo!

Don't worry, we can have a nice dinner tonight without any straw involved."

LOL...my family will be ever so pleased.

reply from: yoda

You didn't have to. When you identify them as "demons", that's reason enough to kill them all, isn't it?

Then that's good enough reason to hunt them all down and kill them, isn't it?

Nah, we've already got one of those. Have you met bobinsky?

Oh, BTW, it took me a whole box of kleenex to dry my eyes after reading about how horribly we've treated you..........

reply from: megan

Sue, what happened to you was inexcuseable. The perps should be nailed right to the wall if they ever catch them, which I hope they do. You never know, they might get caught (new names are added to that database all the time). I hope they throw the book at them.

I do feel bad for the child, though. I don't believe a child should be responsible for the sins of his/her father or mother. The problem is that while you see the child as - well, as not even really human - that doesn't make it so. Children of rape - well, it can be a really awful thing. And what you saw on Oprah, Tam - that is a serious problem, and I know the sort of details you didn't want to post. Those kids are considered less than human. You may not realize Tam that this does not just happen overseas. Even here in America, there are even children who are conceived and birthed specifically to be sexually abused. They are also considered less than human. This happens far more often than the average person realizes. Sex crimes against babies take place here and are just as ignored here.

I stand against all crimes against children. That is how I eventually came to realize that abortion is no different. It is violence against a child. It does not take away anyone's pain and suffering. It just adds more pain and suffering. I am so sorry for all victims of violent crime, especially rape. I am so sorry for all children who are abused. Infants who are gang raped are about the saddest thing anyone could ever see. It was really this that led me to being anti-abortion. I realized suddenly that those who cut a child up and brutalize her and leave her for dead - are butchers, true. But that doctors who cut a child up and brutalize her and kill her--are unintentionally performing an action that is even worse than the butchers I mentioned. That child Tam mentioned that got adopted - many of them do NOT get adopted (well, we've already talked about the foster care system - but that's in America, many of these victims are in other countries). But with love and care, those children can be just fine eventually. We all have traumas we have lived through. Some are really horrific, some less so, some just emotionally traumatic. What victims of violence need is love, permission to be angry, and help to heal. Permission to be angry does not mean permission to seek revenge. That is what those who work in law enforcement are working for--not revenge so much but justice. Unfortunately it does not always work out (in Sue's case, so far it has not).

I guess I am just saying too much----I just wanted to say that the children who are victims of rape are very similar in my mind to the children born of rape. Both are victims in my eyes, both need love and support, as do adult victims of rape. Rape is inexcuseable. Enough said.

Meg

reply from: yoda

If you talked to them like you've talked to us, they were probably in shocked silence.

reply from: yoda

Bobo? Return disguised as someone else, with made up stories? Hmmm....... well..... could be......

reply from: SueYu

Yodavater. You are a disturbed man.

Let what happened to me happen to your wife. Or your girlfriend. Or your daughter. Or your mother. Or YOU, minus the pregnancy unless you know something we don't.

And let's see you snicker then.

Building up such bad will as you have against me on this board...the piper will have to be paid eventually. You're an agnostic, you say? That's ok. Ever hear of plain old Fate? Comeuppance? What goes around comes around? Sure you have.

It couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy.

reply from: yoda

Coming from you, I take those insults as compliments.

Have a nice day!

reply from: ChristianLott

Who's ever heard of this -

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?"

reply from: SueYu

How curious! By your response, you apparently take the raping and brutalizing of your wife, or your girlfriend, or your daughter, or your mother as "compliments". That would be an ungodly harsh remark if coming from anyone but you. You have shown that you care about nothing except fetuses and embryos. I actually think you're obsessed with them. Even those belonging to a pig-human rapist. So I am not at all surprised by your ice-cold comment.

You? You can't get pregnant. Too bad. I'm sure you wish you could.

I had a nice day. Now I'm having a nice evening. Lovely weather here.

reply from: Amy

"How curious! By your response, you apparently take the raping and brutalizing of your wife, or your girlfriend, or your daughter, or your mother as "compliments". That would be an ungodly harsh remark if coming from anyone but you. You have shown that you care about nothing except fetuses and embryos. I actually think you're obsessed with them. Even those belonging to a pig-human rapist. So I am not at all surprised by your ice-cold comment."

Ok...well now you're acting like a petulant child. People aren't falling for your scenerio as you want them to and you're flat out twisting what yodavatter said. Your story is suspect to begin with considering your presentation...making the above comment certainly doesn't make you more believable...rather the opposite. And silly to boot. Again your words mirror Bob's...but play your games...it still is not going to get you passed the truth. People who are against abortion are AGAINST abortion. What exactly is so hard to understand here?

"You? You can't get pregnant. Too bad. I'm sure you wish you could."

Many men do...heck...I wish I could too. And?

"I had a nice day. Now I'm having a nice evening. Lovely weather here."

Yeah...you're a silly goober. I'm wearing a sweater in the middle of June...yikes.

reply from: SueYu

My "presentation"? I related my experience as it happened. Immediately, several of you unfeeling robotons leaped upon me and ate me for dinner, calling me a "murderer", doubting it even happened, saying I was "going to hell", saying I should be in jail with my attackers, etc. Another poster comes in out of the clear blue yonder several pages later saying she was a "child of rape" and immediately you all slobber over her in your eagerness to embrace and believe her. Hypocrites! All of you! Proving to me that you care not one fig about anything unless it's a zygote, an embryo, or a fetus.

Perhaps you should take a look at
http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm and then tell me how many Americans feel the same way you do.

If you can't decipher the information, or interpret in your usual biased manner, I will translate it for you: A majority of Americans want abortion to remain legal, with few restrictions. You hardliners, wanting abortion outlawed in EVERY instance no matter what, are a distinct minority. You always were. You always will be. Deal with it.

reply from: ChristianLott

Yeah. You've got to ask your partner if s/he is pro life or abortion.

Just feel 'em out stealth like. Don't hit them with information or facts if you're serious about getting involved in a relationship. You've just got to find out what the chances are of your babies making it through alive.

If you are a pro life woman, you've got to be sure your man is. He may want to force you into getting an abortion.

If you're a pro life guy, you've got to make sure she won't murder your children before you can even see them.

Good Luck!

Now is not the time to hide from the facts, it could cost your children their lives.

reply from: Amy

"My "presentation"? I related my experience as it happened. Immediately, several of you unfeeling robotons leaped upon me and ate me for dinner, calling me a "murderer", doubting it even happened, saying I was "going to hell", saying I should be in jail with my attackers, etc. Another poster comes in out of the clear blue yonder several pages later saying she was a "child of rape" and immediately you all slobber over her in your eagerness to embrace and believe her. Hypocrites! All of you! Proving to me that you care not one fig about anything unless it's a zygote, an embryo, or a fetus."

Wow, Sue...you're pathological.


Perhaps you should take a look at
http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm and then tell me how many Americans feel the same way you do.

If you can't decipher the information, or interpret in your usual biased manner, I will translate it for you: A majority of Americans want abortion to remain legal, with few restrictions. You hardliners, wanting abortion outlawed in EVERY instance no matter what, are a distinct minority. You always were. You always will be. Deal with it.

Dang it child...can't you even read your own citings? It says 'limited with few EXCEPTIONS' not few restrictions.

In the Gallup Poll it clearly asks, and I am assuming you can read..."Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?"

Always legal was at 23%
Always ILLEGAL was at 22%

Not much of a minority between those two...now is there? Seems to me that people like you who believe abortion waivers should be handed out as party favors are rather a distinct minority yourselves. The rest reporting at 53% for sometimes legal. NO WHERE in there does it say "with few restrictions"

You also seemed to miss...

"Which of these comes closest to your view? Abortion should be generally available to those who want it. OR, Abortion should be available, but under stricter limits than it is now. OR, Abortion should not be permitted."

Generally available 36%
STRICTER LIMITS 38%
NOT PERMITTED 24%

Looks like us "always will be's" may well be winning, at the very least, heavier restrictions. But regardless, it doesn't change my views, opinions, nor how I vote. And that is how I will deal with it.

reply from: salspua

I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I've read a fair portion of it. I am amazed at the coldness toward this woman. Why is it that a claim of rape is not taken seriously? This is the internet - not a court of law. Why assume that a horrible story from a new person must be a lie? If you're not sure about her, why respond critically? Why not assume it's the truth, and if it's not, it's not your bad.

I understand that the baby had nothing to do with its conception - it was an innocent bystander, but I wonder how many of you who are so hard on SueYu's reaction have been raped? I have, and I understand her response. I did not get pregnant, so I can't say what I would have done - probably carried the baby to term, but I wasn't beaten and I wasn't fragile.

I know that every human being does the best she/he knows how in any given situation. Right or wrong, we do what we think we have to do to survive. SueYu, congratulations on surviving. Congratulations on your family, and for beating the odds.

sal

reply from: sarah

First, I'm sorry to hear you have had to endure one of the most violent crimes imagainable. I wish you only continued healing.

For some it's very difficult to hear a human being being referred to as a "demon", "animal" and other such things. There is a way to garner properly due empathy. Sue did anything but that. It came off as one actually using a horrific experience in order to crticize the pro-life stance.
Perhaps you've missed her musings on how she views living breathing human beings who are the result of rape? It's beyond the pale.
I've not had the mis-fortune to endure such a horrible ordeal. But, I have endured the effects of the exact type of bigotry Sue has portrayed here. And for that, I find no excuse acceptable.

In case you missed this post from her and so you will have a better understanding of where I'm coming from:

"I don't know any personally. But my automatic reaction is utter disdain. To put it plainly, if my best friend was brutally raped, lived to tell the tale and became pregnant, decided to have the child, and then asked me to be godmother, I would tell her an unequivocal NO. I would not stand godmother to the product of a brutal assault, no matter how "innocent" the child."

Here is how someone who has been the victim of bigotry could read the above paragraph:

"I don't know any Jews personally. But, my automatic reaction is utter disdain. To put it plainly, if my best friend were to marry a Jew, lived to tell the tale and became pregnant, decided to have the child, and then asked me to be godmother, I would tell her unequivocal NO. I would not stand godmother to the product of a Jew, no matter how "innocent" the child."

It all sounded frighting familiar and I find it disgusting.

reply from: salspua

What I hear is as a defense mechanism. Is it hatred of an innocent person? Yes. The hatred that may have turned inward was turned outward. Labeling someone a bigot does not help them heal. If she says that she'd be the godmother of a child conceived through rape, the defense mechanism would falter and the hatred would turn inward. I wish SueYu healing - it's a long long road. Twenty two years later, PTSD still surfaces once in a while, and my experience was not nearly so violent.

Expressing opinions is important and if they are to be heard for what the opinions are and have any kind of positive impact, they need not to be or resemble personal attacks.

Thank you.

sal

reply from: SueYu

Good manipulative try, Amy. Biased, as usual. What that poll actually said was:

Clearly, those who want abortion LEGAL in some form...76%...far outweighs hardliners who want it banned completely no matter the circumstance...22%.

Also...you didn't quite complete the other poll, either. What it said was:

Again, clearly, those who want abortion available in some form...74%...far outweighs you hardliners who want it banned completely no matter the circumstance.

Thank you for proving my point.

Here are a few more polls for you to consider:

You "always will bes" will lose every time. Only in your own minds and channeled through your own biased minds do you continue to delude yourselves in thinking you will win.

Now...for the holy "Sarah"...

I am very happy you offered this poor woman some of your hard-won sympathy. Because you offered me zip. Right off the bat, you doubted it happened. Why? Because I aborted the seed of a rapist and your precious viewpoint was offended.

I view them as they are, the seed of an animal. You are the one comparing the seed of a rapist to a Jew, not me. It is YOUR bigotry doing that, not mine. I choose not to associate myself with children of rapists, which is my prerogative. I don't see any gun to my head, forcing me to "love" certain types of people. As you do not. Incidentally...I'd like to ask you Sarah...do you have any friends who are lesbian? Atheist? Wiccan? If you answer "yes", knowing how Godlike you think you are and everything, God will call you on it on Judgment Day, you can take that one to the bank. You can't lie to Him.

Thank you, Salspua. You are one of a very few on this board who were human enough to offer kind wishes of healing toward me. I also wish you a healing of soul and peace of mind, and I am sorry you had to suffer what you did.




reply from: Skippy

EVERY couple should have the "ruh roh, the pee stick turned blue" conversation WELL before the point that they become lovers. If you don't know someone well enough to ask them what they would wish to do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, you don't know them well enough to have sex with them.

reply from: sarah

Your sarcasim isn't lost. I understand your need to express your bitterness twoards someone who DARED to disagree with your view.

No, I did not offer you "zip". I reconized the fact that what happened was a travesty to have endured. I also told you I hoped you were able to heal and I hoped the men who did this "horrible" thing to you paid the price. Apparently that wasn't good enough and more fawning was needed.



I doubted it because of the way you presented your story. It was used, in my view, as a venting session. Deliberatley set up for your own needs at the expense of others. You knew exactly what you were doing by referring to your baby as an "animal" and such, you knew exactly who you were speaking to. You treated the pro-life people on this site with disdain and your commentary at the end BEGGED for an excuse to use us as your personal punching bags. You got what you wanted, why all the whining? This seems like pretty cheap therapy, if you ask me. We should be getting thanked.

"That's my story. I have zero regrets. FIRE AWAY."

You dared others to disagree and now you act all shocked and put out....please, spare us. If you can't take the heat, then it's best not to start a fire.

Oh, now they are just the "seed" of an animal, what happened to they were a "cancer", an "animal" or a "demon"?



PURE DENIAL. I happen to be a Jew. I have first hand experinece of what a bigot sounds and acts like.



Now, they are "children" of raptists. Trying to paint a little better picture on your bigotry? Sorry, too late.
ONLY a BIGOT would say those words..."forcing me to "love" CERTAIN TYPES OF PEOPLE. You're NOT fooling anyone, you'll have to take this to a fools website.



Your bait and switch tactics are completely lost here, this is not about me. This is about YOU and your clearly expressed bigotry twoards 'CERTAIN TYPES OF PEOPLE".
I'll be standing before God without the blood of the innocent on my hands. I will not have to explain to him why I destroyed my own young. I'm not worried, you can rest easy about that.

reply from: Allizdog2000

The Very Best of SueYu

Feel sorry for her situation that she is playing to the bone and Basking in all the emotional sympathic outpouring.



And the Post that started it all....

(condensed version)

She even refers to her OWN wanted child as "it".

reply from: Amy

Look Sue, or whoever you are. Clearly from the results there are many more people who want abortions to be restricted. You stated with 'few restrictions' and no where in those polls did it state that. I posted the numbers I found in the polls. Others going to your site can see for themselves, if they even put credence in those polls, that people support restrictions on abortions. Your abortion on demand is losing it's support by leaps and bounds.

I am hopeful that abortion will be held completely abhorrent by our society...and found to be an illegal action taken against an innocent human being. Will that happen in my lifetime? Maybe, maybe not. But that does not change the fact that many good people will fight for just that to be realized. Make this in to some kind of personal petty competition if you like...in the meantime millions of innocent children are being painfully shredded. That might sit just fine with you in your dark little mentality...let that define you as a human being. But don't expect other people not to hold you, as well as the procedure you support, as sick and inhumane.

No matter the name you use while posting...you still continue to twist not only others words but fact, in general.

Clearly, those who want abortion LEGAL in some form...76%...far outweighs hardliners who want it banned completely no matter the circumstance...22%.

Also...you didn't quite complete the other poll, either. What it said was:

Again, clearly, those who want abortion available in some form...74%...far outweighs you hardliners who want it banned completely no matter the circumstance.

Thank you for proving my point.

Here are a few more polls for you to consider:

You "always will bes" will lose every time. Only in your own minds and channeled through your own biased minds do you continue to delude yourselves in thinking you will win.

Now...for the holy "Sarah"...

I am very happy you offered this poor woman some of your hard-won sympathy. Because you offered me zip. Right off the bat, you doubted it happened. Why? Because I aborted the seed of a rapist and your precious viewpoint was offended.

I view them as they are, the seed of an animal. You are the one comparing the seed of a rapist to a Jew, not me. It is YOUR bigotry doing that, not mine. I choose not to associate myself with children of rapists, which is my prerogative. I don't see any gun to my head, forcing me to "love" certain types of people. As you do not. Incidentally...I'd like to ask you Sarah...do you have any friends who are lesbian? Atheist? Wiccan? If you answer "yes", knowing how Godlike you think you are and everything, God will call you on it on Judgment Day, you can take that one to the bank. You can't lie to Him.

Thank you, Salspua. You are one of a very few on this board who were human enough to offer kind wishes of healing toward me. I also wish you a healing of soul and peace of mind, and I am sorry you had to suffer what you did.

reply from: yoda

Then you probably ought to read all of it. This person began with a hostile attitude, and it got worse.

reply from: bobinsky

Sue Yu, I"m sorry you went through what you went through. It was terrible. If needed you should probably look into getting some kind of therapy. What was done to you is not excusable. It was wrong.
It does sound like your abortion was in part retailiation. Your discust for them carried on to the child you were carrying. But that child was not an animal. It was not a demon. it was not a cancer. And it was not it's fault that it was there. Just like it wasn't your fault you were rapped. You were beaten and sexually abused. But what did that child go through? It was torn limb from limb. It wasn't even given a chance at life outside the womb of it's mother.
If it had been me, I would probably go through a lot of the same emotions you went through. Except, that I know a life is a life no matter how small it is. (Close to a Dr. Suess quote ) It was not the babies fault. If I couldn't stand to take care of the child, there are countless couples waiting to adopt who would have gratefully taken care of my baby. [q\]
Amber, I knew out of all the persons on this board, you, the only true pro-lifer here, would offer support to a woman who'd been brutalized like Sue. Is Sue's life worth nothing to anyone else on this board?
And Amber, I know you are firm in your beliefs, and this is to be admired, but you don't know anything about Sue or her situation at the time and to criticize her for aborting the product of a rape, "child" or not, is no one's call, not yours, not mine - no one but Sue's. Amber you say that Sue's abortion sounds like it was at least, in part, "retaliation". I don't know why you think this. Sue was raped, beaten, brutalized and left for dead. That she would want to put all of this behind her is not surprising. You say it's not the baby's fault; it was not Sue's fault either. Yet she's to blame for making a decision that involved no one but her. Somehow I expected more from you, Amber.

reply from: SueYu

All of you hardlining freaks can go cry on each other's shoulders. Because abortion, especially abortion in the cases of rape and incest, and despite your chants, bibles, and tiresome rhetoric, will NEVER be illegal. Not ever. I am satisfied in the knowledge that for women who are ever in the same situation I was, there IS A CHOICE. They will not be forced to carry this "baby" to term.

I just knew most of you would take the extremist stance here, moaning and crying for a child that was put into my body against my will, against everything that I believe in. A child of a deviate....you wanted me to carry a child of a deviate to term, give it birth, love it, etc. I didn't. I terminated it. Instead, I was able to carry to term and give birth to my daughter, whom I love and will nurture for the rest of her life. This means nothing to you. Only the unwanted embryo of a RAPING ANIMAL concerns you. I always knew hardlining extremists were sick. I just wanted to prove it to myself.

I have.

reply from: bobinsky

Sue, I'm sorry that you were put through that brutal attack, then to come to this board only to be judged and condemned and doubted makes it that much worse. Also, Salspua, my sympathy for what you went through. You are both incredible survivors and should be looked up to for your strength and courage to get up and go on with life. No one who has never gone through what you have can understand the emotions and feelings of anger and hatred that are part of the recovery process, which starts immediately. No one who has never gone through what you did should point fingers, or blame, or judge, but it happens all the time to women. They've been raped and brutalized, yet THEY are the bad ones. THEY are the ones who must answer the questions and relive the crime over and over again. THEY are the ones who are doubted. Those on this forum that doubted and harassed and questioned you like they did are sick in some sort of way, emotionally, and their stories of being "taken in" or "fooled" be damned. They all have skeletons to hide; read the archies. Go to renewamerica.us/bb to read more of "christianlott's" garbage. As you can see, Sue, "christianity" on this forum is not very deep; just a surface kind, except for two or three.

reply from: bobinsky

EVERY couple should have the "ruh roh, the pee stick turned blue" conversation WELL before the point that they become lovers. If you don't know someone well enough to ask them what they would wish to do in the event of an unplanned pregnancy, you don't know them well enough to have sex with them.

Well, Skippy, what I'm wondering is why a "christian" man would have to have this conversation with a woman anyway, since pre-marital sex is frowned on big-time by the bible. There is also a passage that tells a man who has sex with a virgin or impregnates a virgin that he must marry her. Guess some christians miss this part, huh?

reply from: sarah

You didn't just "know" people would take an extremist stance (in your view) you MADE SURE of it. Funny, how now all of a sudden it's ONLY the rapist that is the animal and not the child, which if you had said those things in the first place you would have got a different reaction. You can try and cover your bigotry all you want to now, but it is TOO LATE. You look at the children born of rape as demons, cancer and animals and not just the rapists, which the latter is the real truth.

You can stop insulting our intelligence anytime time. Or run the risk of having nothing you say taken seriously.

reply from: sarah

Oh, Bob/Sue stop your whining.

We're not as stupid as you and your ilk need and hope us to be. It was easy to see thru Sue's (?) post.
You'll just have to deal with the fact we know this was nothing more than a set up for the pro-lifers on this board.
It's not our fault that she portrays herself to be a bigot.

reply from: Skippy

Considering she apparently already had a kid when they started shacking up, I don't think the "virgin" rule was applicable.

reply from: SueYu

Sarah.

When both of us stand before God to be judged, He will understand and forgive me for my "sin" of terminating a 5-week-old embryo, animal of an animal, and instead bringing forth a beautiful little girl conceived out of love.

You? You will be damned for all time for the judgmental and grotesque things you have said to the victim of a sexual assault, and nearly a murder, on this board.

I am GLAD I won't be standing in your shoes! Or ChristianLott's for that matter...I read his story. He judges me so freely, yet his cowardice knows no bounds. He cries for his "babies" and blames the world for their abortion, but he was too yellow to do the right thing and marry the girl. God is good...all the time. Indeed he is! But not to those who willfully and knowingly cast stones at a victim of such a hideous crime while their own pasts are blacker than midnight in a mineshaft.

reply from: sarah

Oh, cut the dramatics.
And bring your take of CL's story to him.

reply from: Allizdog2000

As I said before, feel free to feed apon and enjoy the victimhood status. Because oour tolerances is running out. Our tolerance has just ran out.

reply from: Skippy

It's interesting how all you Hatfields appear to feel so free to speak for one another.

I can't speak for the rest of the McCoys ( *grin* ) but if any of them claimed to be speaking on MY behalf, I'd have to take issue with that. I speak for myself.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Speaking on behalf of everyone, Pro-Abortion and Pro-life, The "Hatfield and McCoy" is very annoying and stupid.

And as for SueYu, She isn't getting any more emotional stroking.

She lost my sympathy.

reply from: Allizdog2000

She should have expected that with her nasty attitude coming to a Pro-Life forum.

Same with you and the garbage you spout in this forum.

edited to delete "personal attack"

reply from: Skippy

You certainly let some very inconsequential things greatly annoy you.

From you, perhaps. However, you can't speak for anyone but yourself. Well, you can, but I'm not sure it's the best idea you'll ever have.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Trust me, The "Hatfield and McCoy" is very annoying and stupid

What SueYu fails to understand, a child is a child regardless of the circumstances of their conception. I have known and know people that are "products of rape", SueYu probably knows people that are "products of rape", it's not information people release or want others to know. If SueYu knew that she would look at them as being subhuman. Which is the same as if you meet a Caucasian person, later you find out they are of Jewish Heritage (but not Jewish), then looking at them negatively. There is no difference. SueYu is biggoted. I could more understand if she was attacked by some white guys than hated white people. But hating someone for being and the way they came into being, she has long since lost my sympathy.

I am sure people here have known people of German or Japanese decent, with relatives, fathers, grandfathers that served in the Third Reich or the Japanese Emperor's Royal Empire.. That doesn't make them Nazis or Imperialists.

reply from: Allizdog2000

So, You want an award for that? "To the victim of sexual assault, and nearly a murder, on this board.", You sound like Rosanne Barr crying and moaning about her incest.

I couldn't agree anymore!

reply from: ChristianLott

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Alliz.

When she was pronouncing her convenient karmic justice on my life ("God is good...all the time. Indeed he is! But not to those who willfully and knowingly cast stones at a victim of such a hideous crime while their own pasts are blacker than midnight in a mineshaft.").

My children deserved to get murdered?

Was that what you deserved, to get raped?

Report this to the moderator because this is obvious from your last 'cry wolf'. You can dish it out but you can't take it.

I've gotten over my anger at her. I don't think she deserved to be put in that difficult situation and I certainly don't think any of us deserved the trials and evils this life has given us.

Even those who slaughter babies know it's bad, it's something to be avoided. It's never good to murder a baby but they think it's all just part of life.

It's stupid and it's evil.

The people who do it, believe in it or encourage others in it are stupid and evil people. Ideas separate people, not race, country or circumstance of conception.

Until you repent for the murder of your child(ren), you will not receive the sympathy you otherwise would deserve from this community.

Bottom line:

Don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

I can say without a doubt all of us are united in both the condemnation of your rapists/attackers and also of the subsequent murder of your child.

Murder trumps rape. That's just the truth.

My guilt? For 'not saying the RIGHT thing at the RIGHT time'?

Phony. Lame. Ignorant.

I learned a lesson to be more careful. I thought I was and I was quite literally tricked. And it's not the point of grief or humiliation so much as it is finding out what the REAL RIGHT of that situation was. And I can quite definitely tell you - abortion is evil.

If I was immoral I would have applauded the abortion. Her boyfriend before me wanted her to have an abortion and she had a wonderful baby boy instead while the father fled to California.

If I was immoral I would have told her to abort her new baby (by the same guy who brought her to the causeway abortion mill) three months after she aborted mine.

If I was immoral I would have forgotten all about her. I wouldn't have kept my heart open for her when she asked for help.

All can be forgiven through Jesus. We believe Jesus condemns the murder of innocent babies. I don't blame Him. I'll think about that future and my baby's suffering for the rest of my life and I hope to see them in the next.

When you stand in front of God and spit on that innocent baby, will He let you in?

I know He won't. I hope for the sake of all innocent people He won't.

You were innocent once, before you murdered that baby.

Would you like to be spit on in front of God by your mother because you are a rape victim and so 'not pure'?

Damaged goods.

Think of your baby (a full HALF YOU) looking up at you, hoping for love. Waiting for you to love.

Don't worry. That baby will be in Heaven while you sit in Hell with your lies. We love that child and the lesson learned - you will not be judged by God for your parents sins.

reply from: Tam

Oh, THIS takes the cake. Give me a break. "Is Sue's life worth nothing to anyone else on this board?" Ok, let's start with that crock. Sue's life is worth just as much as anyone else's life--no more, no less--to me. I don't know her, and frankly I'm not convinced she's not a fictional person created by YOU. Regardless, presuming she's for real, you say Amber knows nothing about Sue's situation? She knows everything Sue has felt the need to tell us all about--which is to say, a great deal, presuming it's true. Moving on to your saying Amber has no right to criticize her for her abortion--I direct you to Sue's own comment "FIRE AWAY." I think that outweighs your BS notion that Amber had no right to comment. Making a decision that involved no one but her? Yeah, ok, no one but her and an innocent child she sentenced to death. And the last bit really ices the cake: "Somehow I expected more from you, Amber." You have some nerve, Bobinsky. After the crap Amber has taken because of YOUR actions, you have the unmitigated gall to be rude to HER on the main forum!? I am stunned by the new depths to which you have sunk. I don't know WHY I'm stunned, but somehow I am stunned. And go ahead--call me "queenie" if you think it'll distract anyone from your nonsense. I wish I WERE the queen of the world. But trust me, you wouldn't like my reign.

reply from: sarah

Oh yes, bobinsky has been mighty busy posing as two pro-aborts (or make that three, let's not forget the sudden appearance of "Rose" the product of rape, yeah right). But, just like most pro-aborts they aren't bright enough to pull off the ruse.

I'm sure she had a great time being able to act like she did, damning me to hell in the process ( oh brother! What a drama queen).
She had the gall to call Tam "Queen" and then she comes on here and acts like "God"! Sheesh....

reply from: yoda

It's really kind of amusing, in a perverted sort of a way. One of our regular proabort posters dreamed up this Sue Yu character and decided to give her a story that would afford them the opportunity to accuse us of being "cold and callous".

Then they couched it in the most antagonistic language they could, complete with an "attitude" and daring us to comment on the "story".

When no one took the bait, they then launched into simultaneous diatribes on how awful it was that we didn't all react to her story as if it were one of our own family member who had just been assaulted. Never mind the fact that we don't know this person from Adam (or Eve), and don't know anything about the veracity of the "story".

Ah, the intrigues that proaborts will enter into, just to change the subject and put us on the defensive.

What's next? Little Orphan Annie, who was raped by her destitute father at age 9, and was blamed by her wicked stepmother for the whole thing, and had to drop out of college (even thought she was a child prodigy who was the youngest child to ever enter college), and who has 3 fatal diseases and a weak heart?

Come on guys, use a little more imagination the next time you want to conjure up a sham, okay?

reply from: Skippy

GASP! You're on to us! There's really only one McCoy on this board. It's a hermaphrodite named Sybil, with a variety of male and female personalities, that all support women's reproductive freedoms and rights. Now THAT is the story HBO should be telling in their documentary!

*giggle*

reply from: yoda

For all I know, there may be any number from zero to a dozen or two.

Hmm..... why the edit, did you have a small lapse of creative juice flow?

reply from: Hereforareason

What kind of support? What about what I started out with?

Mainly because she had an extremely bad experience, to say the least. She was pregnant with the child of a rapist who left her for dead. I can only imagein the horror she felt.

No it's not surprising at all

The rape was not the babies fault. The pregnancy and abortion were not the babies fault.
The rape was not Sue's fault. The abortion was however, her decision. And it did not involve only her, it involved her child, the child of a rapist yes, but her child.

I've stayed away from this topic a bit more since it's taken off. I guess there are places that you can stand firm on and shout your message. There are others that are a bit more, touchy. Kind of like this. We believe something is right to do, or wrong to do. And we may be right. But until we are in that situation, we don't fully understand the emotional and physical stress it can bring. So I am not trying to be judgmental. But Neither am I going to back off from my stand, so I"ll go ahead and "fire away" with what I believe.

Sue, what happened to you was wrong. Period. There is no justification for that. When you found you were pregnant, you were horrified. I can't imagine the horror you felt. I would not be surprised that you chose an abortion.
I believe that abortion is killing a human being, and therefore is wrong. I"ll say that, and I"ll bring proof of all the different things abortion actually does. But what I won't do, Ever, is stand out side a clinic, and yell and scream at the women going in that they are going to hell and they are wores. That is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. so, that's my piece.
Sue, I think you would be very interested in the child pretator campaign on the Life dynamics web site. Girl's are being sexually assulted, and then Planned Parenthood is not reporting (as they are required to by law) the fact. If they even suspect that an underage girl is having sex with an adult, they are to file a report. It sure is an easy way for pretators to get out of a bad situation without killing the girl! Check it out on www.lifedynamics.com or just click on the prolife america banner over the forum. Let me know if you need a direct link.

Amber

reply from: Skippy

Zero? You mean Sybil perhaps isn't a McCoy at all, but a Hatfield batting for the other team?!?!?!?! That's just SICK AND EVIL!!!!!

*giggle*

And I'll have you know the flow of my juices is NONE of your business.

reply from: Tam

Zero? You mean Sybil perhaps isn't a McCoy at all, but a Hatfield batting for the other team?!?!?!?!

Well, I'll tell you how many Hatfields and McCoys are on this board: zero, I strongly suspect. Want to know why? Because this isn't the Hatfield/McCoy debate board. It's a board about abortion, a subject you'd prefer not to discuss at all, hence this inane Hatfield/McCoy nonsense. Look, if you're really Dmourning, which I have suspected for awhile now, then you and I have already been down that road (oh please, D, come to the "Let's talk about Abortion now" thread...ad infinitum...to no avail...waste of my time) so I don't care to repeat that experience. And if you're not really Dmourning--well, you may as well be, you're his ideological twin. I wasted a LOT of time and energy reaching out to Dmourning--and it was a waste of EVERYONE'S time and energy. I'm not wasting that again. I'll reach out to those worth reaching out to--salspua comes to mind--but not those to whom this is nothing but a big game. If you want to talk about abortion, Bring It On. Otherwise, I couldn't care less what you have to say. You're not here to make friends, clearly. Are you here to discuss abortion? If so, let's get on with it. If not, why don't you go find some actual Hatfields and make a fool of yourself on their forum.

"Mmmkay?"

reply from: Skippy

DMourning isn't my ideological twin. He objects to post-viability abortions, and I do not. I think picking some arbitrary but not clearly determinable point in time is inconsistant. Viability is a concept. Birth is an event. (There's also the fact that he's male and I'm not, but if the Big Kahuna McCoy is a hermaphrodite, I suppose that's not relevant.)

Furthermore, I don't much care that you want to obsess about terminology, for two reasons. One is that you're quick to whine when you don't like what your opponent calls you, but you don't give a husky rat's hula-hoop what they prefer to be called. The second is that sorting out the pro-life from the pro-fetus from the anti-choice is a time-consuming task that really doesn't ever yield positive results. All it does is give the Hatfields a lot of chances to dance about screaming "Pro-abort! Pro-abort!" And that's so 1970s.

Now, I did offer the option of Jets and Sharks, but I guess the finger-snapping and the choreography were too much for both sides.

You may continue to suggest I go post elsewhere as often and as stridently as you like. And I'll continue to ignore you.

Mmmkay?

Love,

Skippy The Bush Kangaroo

reply from: Tam

Gee, how do you know Dmourning's stand on abortion? You didn't show up on the forum until shortly after he left--but not shortly enough to have encountered his posts. Plus, why would you remember that tiny detail about some other random poster who isn't even here anymore? Whatever. If you're not D, you're some other non-newbie posing as a newbie. Probably someone who got banned already. Maybe you're American Lie.

(Aside to forum regulars: Ok, I cannot BELIEVE I just thought of that right now. I WISH I had thought of that while American Lie was still on this forum. That is just too good. Why didn't I think of that sooner!? *sigh*)

Anyway, maybe you're LochFyne. Maybe you're Dmourning. Maybe not. I don't even care.

I didn't suggest you post elsewhere--I suggested that you EITHER start talking about abortion (the subject of the forum) or go post elsewhere on other subjects more to your liking.

But since you did mention

I'll start there.

Birth is an event, true enough. One that has a beginning and an end. So tell me, when does the child gain the right to live? Is it:

-- when the water breaks
-- when contractions commence
-- when the child's body parts are first visible to another person
-- when any part of the child's body is sticking out of the vagina of the mother
-- when the entire body of the child has emerged from the mother
-- when the cord stops throbbing
-- when the cord is cut
-- when the first breath is taken
-- when the doctor pronounces the baby "born"
-- when the mother says the baby is born
-- when the baby goes home from the hospital

Since you clearly want to stay here, to talk about abortion, let's hear where you think the line should be drawn.

reply from: yoda

Okaaaaaayyyy....... so why is an "event" any less arbitrary than a concept as a dividing line?

reply from: ChristianLott

You fogot to mention - she's was a virgin too!

reply from: Skippy

I'll start there.

Birth is an event, true enough. One that has a beginning and an end. So tell me, when does the child gain the right to live? Is it:

-- when the water breaks
-- when contractions commence
-- when the child's body parts are first visible to another person
-- when any part of the child's body is sticking out of the vagina of the mother
-- when the entire body of the child has emerged from the mother
-- when the cord stops throbbing
-- when the cord is cut
-- when the first breath is taken
-- when the doctor pronounces the baby "born"
-- when the mother says the baby is born
-- when the baby goes home from the hospital

Since you clearly want to stay here, to talk about abortion, let's hear where you think the line should be drawn.

Funny you should ask that. Up until a couple of days ago, I would have said, "When the entire body of the child has emerged from the mother." But I read the AAP guidelines for commencing and ceasing resuscitation of newborns, and now I'm leaning towards, "When the first breath is taken," except I would add the word "unassisted".

I was going to make a thread about it anyway, since the subject of newborn resuscitation is peripherally linked to the subject at hand. Give me a few minutes.

Oh, and I know DMourning's stand on abortion from another forum. This isn't the only debate board on the Big Wide Internet, you know, nor is it an island.

reply from: yoda

Babies need lots of "assistance" for several years..... so that criteria is just as arbitrary as any other.

Besides which, the need for assistance is not taken as carte blance to kill a human being in any other area of our society.

reply from: Skippy

You seem to miss my point. While there is a juncture where a fetus should be viable, it's not a precise moment in time. The emergence from another's body, or taking an unassisted breath, ARE precise moments in time.

reply from: Tam

Oddly enough, so is the moment of conception. I think I'll take this opportunity to repeat something well worth repeating.

So your position, DSkippy, is what?

(a) human life begins at the moment a woman's egg is fertilized by a man's sperm, and
(b) every human being is entitled to have his or her life protected by law from the moment he or she can draw his or her first unassisted breath.

Right?

reply from: yoda

If you point is to choose a precise (but arbitrary) moment in time, then you may be able to do so. You could also choose the moment of the baby's first step..... that would be just as logical. Let him/her take one step, and then ZAP!

reply from: Tam

If you point is to choose a precise (but arbitrary) moment in time, then you may be able to do so. You could also choose the moment of the baby's first step..... that would be just as logical. Let him/her take one step, and then ZAP!

Yoda, you're too much!! That is a terrific point. What are your criteria, Skippy? I get it that you feel the moment at which a child's life becomes worthy of legal protection must be

-- a precise moment in time

What are the other criteria, praytell?

reply from: Skippy

If you point is to choose a precise (but arbitrary) moment in time, then you may be able to do so. You could also choose the moment of the baby's first step..... that would be just as logical. Let him/her take one step, and then ZAP!

Yo, Yo, Yo. You're so cute when you're abusing logic, and flagellating around trying to pretend I'm saying something I'm not.

YOU would not tolerate an imprecise juncture. If someone tried to say, "It's a human life worthy of protection when cell division takes place, and not until. Mere fertilization isn't enough," you'd say, "With current medical technology, we have no way of knowing when cell division begins."

So, you pick an arbitrary and precise moment, and plant your flag. Then you say to me, "Why do YOU choose birth as your arbitrary and precise moment? Why not the sproggy's first steps?" Sorry, not seeing where your arbitrary and precise moment is superior to mine. Because you say so?

reply from: ChristianLott

There is nothing imprecise about conception. It is precise AND arbitrary and it is when life begins.

reply from: Skippy

There is nothing imprecise about conception. It is precise AND arbitrary and it is when life begins.

Yes, yes, and yes. And I never said otherwise, as you will find if you (re)read my post, only this time with some attention to what it says.

reply from: yoda

Who said it was? No, any arbitrary and precise moment is just like any other, isn't it?

You still don't seem to get the point that it's the arbitrary nature of your "moment" that is objectionable to me.

reply from: yoda

Well CL, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think there's anything arbitrary about the moment of conception/fertilization..... that's the first moment of anyone's life.

reply from: yoda

Apparently it must be both precise AND arbitrary to fullfill his criteria for death..........

reply from: ChristianLott

OK. Seems like I need a refresher as to what arbitrary means.

I took it to mean absolute or undeniable. Like 'that is that'.

I'm still a little skeptical of it's definition.

ar·bi·trar·y Audio pronunciation of "arbitrary" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (?rb-trr)

adj.

1. Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice.

2. Based on or subject to individual judgment or preference: The diet imposes overall calorie limits, but daily menus are arbitrary.

3. Established by a court or judge rather than by a specific law or statute: an arbitrary penalty.

4. Not limited by law; despotic: the arbitrary rule of a dictator.

reply from: cali2345

Hi everyone,

I know that I haven't been participating in this thread from the beginning, and that's because I didn't discover it until a couple of days ago - but I did read the entire thing, and if I may be so bold as to jump in, I have a few comments to make.

Let me begin by saying that stories like SueYu's are heartwrenching to hear, and my sympathy and prayers go out to her and anyone else who has experienced something so awful and dehumanizing. That is, I think, the only reaction possible when one hears something like this, and it's the only reaction I would ever want anyone to receive from me.

That having been said, I do find flaws in some of the logic used to explain why she was not sorry for killing her unborn child. It seemed to me that the bottom line of all this was that she could never love the child or stand to have it alive in her because it was the seed of an evil person, and therefore, also evil. Another commonly recurring word was "demon," but since a demon is either an evil spirit (probably not what she meant) or simply a source of evil or ruin, it seems that we can just address the simple adjective "evil."

There are three logical problems with excusing the killing of an unborn child by calling it the seed of an evil person and therefore evil itself. Number One: An unborn child cannot be evil. This isn't my personal belief, but rather logical fact. If you look at a dictionary you will find that "evil" means morally reprehensible (i.e., sinful or wicked), or causing of harm. An unborn child has caused no harm and cannot act freely to do anything, good or wicked or otherwise. Such a child is not a moral agent in any sense whatsoever.

Number Two: There is absolutely nothing to support the contention that the offspring of an evil person must itself be evil (even after it has grown up enough to actually have the capacity to do evil). Evil is the result of choices, and no single human being is locked into the same things that another human being chose. It may be true that certain mental disorders have a genetic basis, but 1) not everyone who has a mental disorder will pass that disorder along to their children, 2) not everyone who is evil has a mental disorder, and 3) (and most importantly) having a mental disorder does not mean that one will inevitably do evil or even have more of a predilection for choosing evil than someone who does not have a mental disorder. There is no support for these notions. There is also no support for the notion that children who grow up SEEING their parents do evil will themselves choose evil. Many people whose parents have chosen evil have not chosen it for themselves, and many whose parents haven't chosen evil HAVE chosen it for themselves. Of course, this point is irrelevant in the discussion of the child of a rapist, who would not grow up seeing the acts of his/her evil father but with a very much non-evil mother. And let's not forget that such a child is half the mother's seed as well; even if it were true that evil could somehow be genetically prescribed, such a child would actually be a 50/50 mix of evil and good - whatever that is. (You can see how ridiculous the argument becomes at this point.)

Number Three - and this is the MOST IMPORTANT point of all. There is no morally relevant difference between a human being in the womb and one outside. When a woman is pregnant, a brand-new human being has already begun living inside of her. Therefore, anything that we say to justify killing that human being inside the womb should also be able to justify killing one outside. Putting aside the fact that the unborn and tiny born children can't be evil, would anyone be justified in drowning her three-year-old child because she believed it to be evil, since its father was? Of course not. And not just because she's logically wrong about the evil bit, but also because the belief that someone is "evil" or that he/she is tainted with someone else's wrongs cannot justify the deliberate ending of his or her life. There is no reason to apply any other standard when the child is inside its mother.

Anyway, quite a bit of headway has been made in expressing opinions and judgments from both sides on this thread, so I may as well not compound the redundancies there. I mainly wanted to post this because logically unsound arguments tend to jump out at me and I want to make sure that people are able to back up their opinions with sound logic. I think that's a reasonable thing to expect in discussions like this.

Take care, all!

reply from: ChristianLott

Good input Cali.

Have you read the 'Fetal Pain' thread where among other things, Sue explains to me that my children deserved to be murdered as some reverse karmic repercussion for telling her she is going to Hell for murdering her own baby?

It works both ways and double. It's the murderer calling the rapist evil.

So if that baby were 50% murderer and 50% rapist, might all that cancel each other out to where the baby was the ONLY innocent victim in this whole charade?

Of course it does.

reply from: yoda

Well said and thorough, cali. Thanks!

reply from: Christian4life

Welcome Cali. Hope you can stay a while.

reply from: cali2345

I'm just curious: did most of you find these forums through Life Dynamics? I've read some of Mark Crutcher's stuff and I think it's amazing. He writes so clearly and logically, and he's really done his homework.

reply from: ChristianLott

Yes.

From LDI to ProLife News to the forum.

reply from: Hereforareason

Mark Crutcher is amazing. Check out his books Lime 5 and on Message.
Oh, by the way, Welcome!
Amber

reply from: cali2345

Thanks!

It's fun and enlightening to be a member of any forum. It helps me to rediscover my beliefs and to learn new ways of supporting and defending my position.

See you 'round these parts, I'm sure.

reply from: franciscangirl

As a victim of rape, I can tell you that women who have been raped and are pregnant are the ones we should be protecting from abortion the most. Let me explain. Being put through the horrendous crime of rape is an incredibly tramatizing for a woman. It will affect her for the rest of her life emotionally and many times physically. Why then, would we want to torture her by adding another crime on top of that. I mean she would be a victim...twice! Both of which will never escape her memory. While there is forgiveness, etc., the effects from the abortion outway the effects of rape. Last week I talked to a woman who had been raped, got pregnant and had an abortion about 22 years ago. She said the rape is not what still haunts her. It is the abortion. She was only 14 when it happened. A baby being conceived under such terrible circumstances is the same human life that is conceived under a love relationship. Both have personhood. Both deserve life, liberty and happiness.

reply from: franciscangirl

As a victim of rape, I can tell you that women who have been raped and are pregnant are the ones we should be protecting from abortion the most. Let me explain. Being put through the horrendous crime of rape is an incredibly tramatizing for a woman. It will affect her for the rest of her life emotionally and many times physically. Why then, would we want to torture her by adding another crime on top of that. I mean she would be a victim...twice! Both of which will never escape her memory. While there is forgiveness, etc., the effects from the abortion outway the effects of rape. Last week I talked to a woman who had been raped, got pregnant and had an abortion about 22 years ago. She said the rape is not what still haunts her. It is the abortion. She was only 14 when it happened. A baby being conceived under such terrible circumstances is the same human life that is conceived under a love relationship. Both have personhood. Both deserve life, liberty and happiness.

reply from: cali2345

Exactly. Our country has become so brainwashed by the abortion industry that they actually defend abortion as being a good thing on its own merits. How can we deny a victim of rape the right to an abortion? they ask. That's assuming that an abortion would help her or somehow rectify the fact that she was raped! And it completely ignores the fact that abortion is just another awful thing to do to someone. If the abortion industry really cared about women they would try to investigate every possible alternate option with her before she resorted to killing her child - but the fact is they have such a vested interest in the profits that they will never do this. This is completely sick and disgusting, taking advantage of someone to this degree. It's just as bad as what rapists do!

reply from: ChristianLott

BS. Nowhere close.

GMAFB.

reply from: yoda

I think you misunderstood him, CL. He was saying that talking a rape victim into an abortion was worse than the rape itself.

reply from: StarAngel

How could you say these awful things to someone who has went through hell and back?

reply from: StarAngel

Sue, I am so very sorry that you had to go through so much pain. I hope you live a happy life with your child and husband.
I can't believe some of the people on here can be so insensitive about what you went through.
I don't agree with abortion, but I can certainly most understand why you would do it.
Rape is the most brutal of all attacks. Again, I hope you can find peace to move on.

reply from: ChristianLott

Ah, you forgot murder...

reply from: sarah

Where's your condemnation of her calling ALL children born of rape as "demon seeds", "cancer", "animals", "viruses"? She is a bigot, she refuses to associate with children/adults born of this act.

I can't believe some people are so insensitive that they would hate another human being just because of the way they were concieved.
You don't agree with abortion, but understand why someone would do that? So, then you do approve of abortion. You can't have it both ways.

It's one thing to be sensitive and understanding towards the victim of the rape, and quite another to condone the act of killing an innocent child.

Are you one of those people who doesn't believe in abortion but wouldn't want the right to have one taken away?

reply from: yoda

Well, sarah, it looks like bob has reincarnated again..............

reply from: sarah

You know, some people just don't know when to give it a rest.

reply from: StarAngel

I agree that calling all products of rape demon seeds, ETC is extreme.
But give the girl a break. She was raped.
How many of you can actually say that you would go on with a pregnancy if you were raped? And how many guys would agree to their women keeping a rape baby?
You can't say yes or no either way until it happens to you.

reply from: Tam

Whoa. When you phrase "refrain from killing an innocent child" as "go on with a pregnancy" you make me wonder where you are coming from. You think calling a child of rape "demon seed" is extreme, but you show your own bias in your above post. "How many guys would agree to their women keeping a rape baby?" -- first, it is not up to the guy. Second, we are not "their women"--we are owned by no one. Third, you don't have to keep the child, you just have to refrain from killing the child until s/he can emerge unscathed from your body and be adopted by someone who isn't biased against him or her for being a "rape baby."

reply from: sarah

Extreme? How about calling it for what it actually is? It's a statement coming from a BIGOT.
Now, if you will, try dealing with that aspect of this woman's story. It's the whole package we're dealing with, try putting all the pieces together.

And how presumptious of you to say anyone can't know what they would do in that situation. You don't know how deep the feelings of each indiviual runs.

And Tam was 100% correct, we're not possessions of men.

Are you going to dodge the other question I asked you? Or are you here just to defend Sue Yu?

reply from: StarAngel

What question is that?

I'm not here to defend anyone. I can see both sides of the rights and wrongs.
If I were in her situation, I would have gave the baby up for adoption.
so why am I getting jumped?

reply from: sarah

Are you one of those people who doesn't believe in abortion but wouldn't want the right to have one taken away?

I have another question. Did you read all Sue Yu has posted?

reply from: StarAngel

question #1--No
question #2- I'm in the process of reading everything now

reply from: Christian4life

I didn't jump you. I don't believe I have even seen you here before. Welcome to the forums.

reply from: StarAngel

Thanks Christian4life.

reply from: Christian4life

I can understand a woman feeling traumatized and emotionally stressed to find out she is pregnant as a result of a rape. But why abortion? Does that really solve anything? Why not counseling to deal with those feeling instead of thinking you can just flush them away with a suction tube?

After you get the abortion, those feelings would still be there. The resentment towards the rapist, the trauma, the pain, abortion doesn't cure that. And, most likely they'd only be compounded with the feeling that you killed something living through the abortion. I just can't imagine anyone coming away from an abortion feeling very good about the whole thing, unless they are deluding themselves.

What I still don't get is why these "feminist" groups spend all thier money and efforts on killing the child of an abortion - who never asked to be concieved like that - and who by the way carries half the genes of the mother as well - instead of spending ALL thier time and energy on rape counseling, prevention, and legislation to make sure there are severe penalties for offenders!

reply from: Christian4life

And how about instead of killing the children of the young girls who have been used by older men, you start some programs for the prevention of child abuse??

Last time I checked, there are some states right now in which Planned Parenthood isn't even required to REPORT child sexual abuse cases when they see them. That is really sad because most young girls never have the courage to tell very many people, and when you get the chance to catch a sex offender, that might be the ONLY chance.

reply from: sarah



That seems inconsistent to me, you are against women having the right to abortion on demand, yet you can "certainly most understand why", in the case of rape.

Can you clear that up? As true pro-life advocates do not understand "why" rape is an exception.

Then would you mind after reading everything she has posted letting us know how you view her obvious bigotry towards other human beings? And how that jives with your defense of her actions? Thanks.

reply from: StarAngel

Just because I can understand why..does not mean that I actually would support an abortion if someone were raped. After all, it wasn't the kid's fault what it's parents do in life and the kid should not have to pay for it's parents mistakes.
Sue has been through a huge trauma that in result of that trauma she lashed out on the baby. It wasn't the best decision, but it has been done. Could she have been less graphic in her words toward the baby? Yes. Does she deserve to be treated like a piece of garbage?NO.
I'm not defending anyone's actions, and some of you can complain about what she said about her baby, but what about what you are calling her? Isn't that the same bigotry?Some people consider ALL women who have had an abortion to be the scum of the earth. IMO, it equals the same kind of bigotry. They are BOTH wrong.
It's obvious that she needs some kind of counseling to get her through with this on BOTH issues.
But I do agree that aborting her baby was not the answer to her problem.

reply from: ChristianLott

Whoa. When you phrase "refrain from killing an innocent child" as "go on with a pregnancy" you make me wonder where you are coming from. You think calling a child of rape "demon seed" is extreme, but you show your own bias in your above post. "How many guys would agree to their women keeping a rape baby?" -- first, it is not up to the guy. Second, we are not "their women"--we are owned by no one. Third, you don't have to keep the child, you just have to refrain from killing the child until s/he can emerge unscathed from your body and be adopted by someone who isn't biased against him or her for being a "rape baby."

Well said Tam.

SA (aka OJ) wants to maintain the OPTION of blaming others if she regrets her 'choice'.

She seeks to maintain the ability to blame men for her 'right to chose'.

She'd like to say 'abortion is wrong' but she'd like to have a 'just in case' option.

This is pure roe v wade jargon if there ever was. This is 'that 70s show' on abortion.

Nobody can blame anybody for anything because it's nobody's fault. AKA it's all the man's fault.

Act irresponsibly to the point of homicide and refuse to take the rap. Then blame others for your 'choice'.

What about those poor 'rapists' OJ? Don't they deserve some of your 'compassion' too? They didn't mean it. 'Their' women drove them to it.

You can shift the blame around all you want. The truth is - one is rape, the other murder. There is nothing else to 'understand'.

reply from: ChristianLott

Christian4Life, those were some good comments.

They'll spend all their time murdering babies because that's what makes them money right now.

Shift the focus and spending and you can avert the 'abortion' catastrophe.

reply from: yoda

She wasn't just "graphic", she described it as something much worse than a "piece of garbage".... she called it a demon!

Which would you rather be called? What names was she called that are worse, are less appropriate, than "demon"?

How about a little sympathy for the "unborn demon"?

reply from: Christian4life

Thanks and I don't believe I've officially welcomed you to the forum either. Hello.

I've been here a long time but I was gone for a while too, so I guess I missed some newbies.

reply from: ChristianLott

Thanks.

Welcome back.

reply from: Amy

There are many women who have had similiar if not worse experiences...and very sadly...more who will. No one condones that kind of vicious attack...however, as other posters have stated...one heinous action relieve a person of perpetrating another? No, it does not. You're trying to have people here validate your right to your anger and confuse the issue with the right, then, to kill your child. The two have nothing to do with each other.

I know, personally, the horrors of rape. This does not take away my responsibility to humanity on any level...especially not when dealing with innocent life. I bear my scars, cigarette burns on intimate parts of my body...and while we are sharing...had to have my labia retracted due to cigarette burns and shredding of my flesh...not to mention scars from have to be stitched up from the excessive tearing and the scars by my eyes which were beaten shut and the four inch scar on my neck from obvious means. Does it still hurt my feelings? Sure. Does it still make me cry from time to time? Absolutely. But I wake up every day...I see how much beauty there is all around us...I am alive...and I am ever so thankful for that. As I said, we all have our stories. Does this mean I should hate or be justified in angry action because of the abuse foisted upon me? Certainly not. Do children who were molested then have the right to molest other children when they become adults? Hardly.

It's not that I do not sympathize with what you experienced...I simply do not appreciate your use of it in this forum. It would appear to me, in any case, that you try to assert if someone feels sorry for what happened to you they must then necessarily agree with the action you took following the rape. That is hardly logical thinking. If your attacker had been caught and you walked in to the court room and shot the man you would be prosecuted. Even in that instance...where people may sympathize...when faced with the man who abused you, you would be held liable and found guilty of taking a life. How then is that so different from what you did do? Someone hurt you so you killed an innocent child. Again, there is simply no logic in that...and no amount of trying to make others feel sorry for your suffering only to use it to back-pat your choice to kill your child...well I find that reprehensible. That you chose to kill your child cannot be justified by the abuse you suffered at any point in your life, if you were to be honest. The truth of it is you simply do not believe there is value in the life of a child unless the woman deems it so. That would be a much more honest line of discussion then bringing in other situations that really don't apply to the whole theme of this forum.

As a fellow, and grateful, survivor of rape all I can think to say is "So what?" when you drone on about what happened to you. You lived...you went on to love, marry, and bear a child...I will assume you have some kind of value in the life you lead. You and I, SueYu, are amongst the lucky in such circumstances. Your child was not, sadly enough. I feel much less sorry for you and your situation, me and mine, and ever so much more for the innocent life lost in it all.

I will, as well, join in with the other posters who compassionately suggest you seek therapy in dealing with the anger you hold so tightly to and use to justify your actions.

reply from: sarah

Well said, Amy!

Good to see you back, we've missed you!

reply from: Amy

That's an absolutely wonderful point. If they cared at all about the women who suffer the violence of rape they would make every effort to comfort and support those women. What they do in fact offer is a woman being placed in a cold and sterile enviroment, and I am addressing attitude more then the actual facility, and tell her that killing her child will somehow take away the pains they experience. No therapy to deal with the emotional distress...they just rely on being able to further take from her womanhood. And then they rely on using that woman later down the line when others call abortion for the horror it is. They tell these women the 'evil Christian people" are condemning them, personally, and to defend themselves they then have to defend abortion as a whole. It's strictly appalling what these people will do for federal funds...the use of women in crisis and the murder of our children for taxpayer dollars.

You made very fine points...thanks.

reply from: Amy

I most certainly can say what I would do in such circumstances...since I've been in them...and, in a heartbeat, I can tell you I would not be killing my child.

reply from: Amy

Hey there you...thanks...nice to see/read you again.

Gosh, you've all had to deal with some intense silliness while I've been away huh? These rationalizations get farther and farther on the other-side of goofy by the minute. I am sure glad to see such loving hearts and intelligent minds fighting the good fight for life.

Amy

reply from: sarah

It's staggering at times!



To which you go to the head of the class!

reply from: yoda

Thanks, Amy. From what I read, you are in the majority opinion in that circumstance. Those who take out their anger on their baby are in the minority, and a small one at that.

reply from: Skippy

There is a site that has the results of several different polls regarding abortion over the last several years:

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

A perusal of the data reveals that those who think abortion should be illegal even in the case of rape are a distinct minority.

reply from: bobinsky

Hey, Skippy. Thanks for the info. The major difference between the pro-fetus/anti-choice posters on this site and the able-minded persons on the link you posted is that those polled remember that there is a woman involved in the equation. The pro-fetus/anti-choice groupies dehumanize the woman to butcher/murderer/whore non-status so they can justify ignoring her and focus on the fetus. And then the pro-fetus group play the "bigotry" and "discrimination" against the most "innocent and helpless members of society" card to up the emotion because they know they can't win the debate on logic and rational thinking. A woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy due to a brutal act of violence hardly equates to bigotry/discrimination.

reply from: yoda

Hmmmm..... I guess that means you're "anti-fetus", right?

An abortion IS a brutal act of violence......... DUUUHHHH!

reply from: sarah

Hey, Skippy. Thanks for the info. The major difference between the pro-fetus/anti-choice posters on this site and the able-minded persons on the link you posted is that those polled remember that there is a woman involved in the equation. The pro-fetus/anti-choice groupies dehumanize the woman to butcher/murderer/whore non-status so they can justify ignoring her and focus on the fetus. And then the pro-fetus group play the "bigotry" and "discrimination" against the most "innocent and helpless members of society" card to up the emotion because they know they can't win the debate on logic and rational thinking. A woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy due to a brutal act of violence hardly equates to bigotry/discrimination.

Sorry SueBob, the only time biotry is mentioned is when YOU come here and call children and adults concieved thru rape as "demons", "cancer", "animals", and "viruses"...did I leave out any other disgusting ways you chose to describe other human beings?

The fact of the matter is, which I know disturbs you greatly, is that pro-life advocates care about BOTH mother and child. Whereas pro-aborts only care that their sacred right to kill a helpless human being is left in tact.
It's ludicrous to try and convince anyone that you care about either one.

reply from: Allizdog2000

You and Skippy; Anti-Fetus and Pro-Choice!

That is a lie, which you are accustomed to that being a Pro-Choice Liar...err Lawyer.

Your Pro-Abortion/Anti-Fetus arguements you cannot win. Pre-Born children are helpless and cannot defend themselves. If they aren't human, then what are they? They are living, they have human DNA, they are members of the human species. Then what are they? The opposite is true, you know you can not win a debate on truth, logic and rational thinking. You BOBINSKY can win a debate on lying, twisting words, twisting the truth, Mixing Truth with lies and pseudo-science.

Well, you may be right about that. But why does a child have to pay in blood for the sins of the father?

reply from: Della22

First, I have to appologize for not reading the entire thread. And I do know the agony of being violated. When I was in the military I was raped by 3 men. All of whom I thought were my friends. While they did get their punishment, I still do not feel vendicated. The navy gave me a choice and I took discharge. BUT since I left so early in my term, I receive no benefits, no one was alerted in the media about my attack and still I believe that young women are not informed about the dangers of military life.

When I was taken to the hospital after crawling to my barracks, beaten and bloody, they gave me the morning after pill. I would not take it. There is no way I could overlook the fact that any child conceived would still be MY child. I did not conceive, but if I had I certainly would not have ended the life of MY child.

So just because ONE woman would choose abortion after being raped, does not mean every one of us would and does not speak the good of abortion. It does not JUSTIFY saying *ABORTIONS ON DEMAND FOR EVERYONE.* If abortion was regulated you would still get some vendication the same as you had, Sue Yu. Because you were taken to the hospital I am sure they did a rape kit on you. So there was record of your being raped. Therefore should you conceive after rape, you would have proof of the source of paternity.

Rape is a tricky situation to get into when we talk about outlawing abortion on demand. But I'd like to see the statistics of how many abortions are done becaue the woman was raped and how many were done simply out of convenience.

I'd also be curious to see how the rape statistics would change if there were no legal abortions. Would rapists be more deterred to rape if they knew they may leave evidence to convict them?

reply from: ChristianLott

The stats are out there but it's something like 1%.

80% of women who are raped do not have abortions...

http://abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_29.asp

by Dr. and Mrs. J.C. Willke

CHAPTER 29

RAPE

Pregnant from rape?

Why not abort her?

I've never heard the answer to this so I'm guessing. Wouldn't they get all the dna they needed from the sperm anyway?

reply from: Christian4life

Whenever I think about rape and how badly the woman suffers from it, I always think of 2 things:

1. The fact that if the child of rape had been BORN, NO ONE with a conscience would be able to look at that child and say, "I wish you'd been aborted". ESPECIALLY not his or her own mother.

2. The hatred that I see towards the helpless fetus concieved in rape, reminds me a lot of the types of things I've heard of from people who hate thier own children because of the father. I see no difference between those feelings and the feelings of a woman who has been cheated on and/or abandoned by her own husband, and left with his kids to raise. Most of those women are able to see their child for who they are, and love them. Some, however, only see the child's father in them, and take it out on them.

There's a TERM FOR THAT.

CHILD ABUSE.

reply from: yoda

Very good points, C4L.

reply from: sarah

Abortion on demand is nothing more than leaglized child abuse.

You summed it up well, C4L.

reply from: bobinsky

Della, I am so sorry to hear what happened to you. It's my contention that a lot of this kind of stuff goes on in the military and is swept under the rug. It sounds like you have healed emotionally from your ordeal.
You had a choice when taken to the hospital: take the morning after pill or not take the morning after pill. But it was your choice. Just as Sue's choice was to terminate the pregnancy caused by rape. CHOICE is the key word here. If you'd have felt differently, there would have been options for you. Not all women want to bear the children of their rapists; everyone's story is different.

With DNA testing it doesn't matter if there is or isn't abortion. The male will still be convicted of the crime if DNA shows him to be guilty.

reply from: bobinsky

Comparing the vicious, brutal attack of rape against a woman to a fetus being aborted is like comparing apples and figs. There IS no comparison.

Nope. I'm pro-choice in that the woman who's burdened with an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy knows what's best for her particular situation and I support her choices: abortion, adoption or keeping the kid. In case you didn't know, yoda, these are "choices". There is a woman/girl involved in the equation, not just a fetus, which is all you can see.

reply from: bobinsky

I'm sorry, sobbing sarah, but I refer to an unborn child in the scientific term: fetus, or z/e/f. I've never used the terms you're describing. I believe it is you that screeches incessantly about discrimination and/or bigotry when a women decides to terminate a pregnancy. There's no discrimination or bigotry involved in the choice. It's one woman deciding about what is best for her particular situation.

Yeah, enough with the boo-hoo "helpess human being" garbage. There are helpless human beings out of the womb also. In this discussion about the pregnancy resulting from rape, none of your pro-fetus/anti-choicers cared about the rape victim and her circumstances and feelings. All of your sympathy went to a fetus conceived through a brutal act of hatred, and you people were the victim's judge and jury and condemned her, so don't try to feed me your lies about "caring about BOTH".

reply from: Amy

Comparing the vicious, brutal attack of rape against a woman to a fetus being aborted is like comparing apples and figs. There IS no comparison.

Where a woman is raped and lives, yes, the difference is she is allowed life...where a woman is raped and then cut to pieces, no...there is NO difference.

Nope. I'm pro-choice in that the woman who's burdened with an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy knows what's best for her particular situation and I support her choices: abortion, adoption or keeping the kid. In case you didn't know, yoda, these are "choices". There is a woman/girl involved in the equation, not just a fetus, which is all you can see.

The debate, necessarily, would be whether or not the 'choice' to kill an innocent child because of a perceived 'burden' even stands the test of law...or didn't you know?

And you support a system that throws a woman, and many times a child, in to a sterile (emotionally) enviroment, rips at her womb and kills her child, then throws her outside with NO support or concern for after-care...and you expect anyone to believe you give a rats behind about those women? Fat chance. Your only concern is for the money to made both privately and by federal funds...and the voter base you hope to create to defend your right to continue killing more children.

reply from: bobinsky

The "undue burden" test isn't necessary anymore . . . or didn't you know?

I don't know exactly who you are or where you're from or what you do, but when a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy, she is made aware of the resources available. I am on the front lines of the situation, more often now that I was several weeks ago, thanks to this board - and I am up close and see what goes on with these women. I risk my life for these women who choose to terminate their pregnancies because of the anti-choice/anti-woman nut-jobs who try to stop women from entering clinics, or who scream at them and the escorts about being murderers. You don't know what I do for these women, so you're making a gross assumption. I make no money from anything concerning abortion; I volunteer my time for nothing. The clinics/doctors make money, just like all clinics/hospitals and physicals make money. The physicians who perform abortions are licensed OB/GYNS who also make money delivering babies. But I bet you don't begrudge them this money.
You can stow your rhetoric. You're making assumptions because you have no clue about what your talking about. When you're up to speed, come back and we'll talk. The fact that you reduce yourself to these assumptions shows you've got no basis for your beliefs or your arguments.

reply from: cali2345

I'd like to know what assumptions you are talking about.

I'd also like to suggest that you read LIME 5. Many abortionists are scared speechless by this book and the stir it's created. It contains irrefutable proof that in MANY cases, the situation at abortion clinics is exactly as Amy said.

Pro-lifers actually have a pretty STRONG basis for their beliefs. That basis is that there is no morally relevant difference between a human being in the womb and one outside. Also, the government has never told us that we have a choice to do whatever we want. It bars us from MANY choices that involve harm to other human beings, and also from some choices that involve the "use of our bodies" for certain things. Abortion is no different; if it kills another human being (which it undeniably does) it should not be a "choice" for anyone.

reply from: nuke

All indications are that you stopped lisitening a long time ago but I hope you read this post. I can relate somewhat to what you are saying. My first wife was raped when she was very young (12) by a relitive. (God rest her soul) so wasn't both of her daughters. each in turn. by men who did not care about them. It should really be some point of consoluation to you that the men who did this were never found. they found the guy who raped renee. he was out and living next door 2 years later. he thought it was funny till I went to work one night and my wife "convinced" (i use that word loosely) him to leave at the end of one of my shotguns. thankfully he left town and no charges were filed. but if there is one thing that I do know it is the simple truth that life never goes away. life is forever. I hope the men who did this to you come to there sences or end up in jail (for longer than 2 years). I hope you recover from this tragity. It seems you still suffer greatly. Given what you said I am left to believe that it has been sometime since this incident. But this sort of pain never really goes away. Much like the death of someone you love more than you love yourself, time will not make it less. Although it will make you better able to deal and understand it. And I hope you seriously take to heart the fact that this was not your fault. It cannot be said enough. I am sorry that you doubled your tragity. I am sorry this was your only option. But I hope it gives you some consoluation to think that you have 2 children. 1 above praying for you and the one below in your arms or by your side as the case may be. Please understand if you believe this to be a statement of ideology only that the death of someone you love more than yourself is by defiintion a religious experence. I fear I have said to much. Iam new here and dont wish for this to get sidetracked and become an argument about religion. so for what it is worth I hope this helps.

reply from: Amy

"The "undue burden" test isn't necessary anymore . . . or didn't you know?"

That is assuming one finds a Constitutional basis for roe v wade...again, hence the great debate.

"I don't know exactly who you are or where you're from or what you do,"

You know I've seen you type those same words to other posters which typically leads in to a tirade of personal assumptions...could you make up your mind?

"but when a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy, she is made aware of the resources available."

That most certainly is not always the case and in many instances is not. I've had personal experience with just that so you are harping to the wrong person.

"I am on the front lines of the situation, more often now that I was several weeks ago, thanks to this board - and I am up close and see what goes on with these women."

Hmmm...so this board somehow facilitates your involvement with women in crisis and helping them make the decision to abort their children? How exactly does that work?

"I risk my life"

LOL...oh sorry...you were saying...

"for these women who choose to terminate their pregnancies because of the anti-choice/anti-woman nut-jobs who try to stop women from entering clinics, or who scream at them and the escorts about being murderers"

So someone trying to conjole someone out of having an abortion threatens your life somehow? Would you care to expound on that bit of brilliance?

"You don't know what I do for these women, so you're making a gross assumption. I make no money from anything concerning abortion; I volunteer my time for nothing."

So you volunteer your time helping women to feel comfortable about killing their children and you want me to pat you on the back for it? Ummm...nope.

"The clinics/doctors make money, just like all clinics/hospitals and physicals make money. The physicians who perform abortions are licensed OB/GYNS who also make money delivering babies. But I bet you don't begrudge them this money."

No...but then they're not killing innocent babies for profit...so there's that.

"You can stow your rhetoric."

Right Bob...everyone who disagrees with your murderous stance is handing out nothing but rhetoric. That's such a used-up tactic to try and stifle the views and opinions of others.

"You're making assumptions because you have no clue about what your talking about."

What assumptions am I making Bob? You have your experiences, and while seem rather unreasonable and probably, IMO, either greatly exaggerated or simply untrue...you must know that other people have had their experiences with the horrors abortions presents. Your word is hardly the end-all be-all, nor are you going to change the minds of people who refuse to support the murder of innocent babies.

"When you're up to speed, come back and we'll talk."

Well geez, Bob...next time are you going to make it more interesting?

"The fact that you reduce yourself to these assumptions shows you've got no basis for your beliefs or your arguments."

LOL...nice try sweetie...but that was completely ridiculous. When someone states the obvious, gives an opinion, or states experience...that is hardly an assumption. My beliefs are mine...they are strong...and you cannot question them and still try and sound the least bit credible. I don't question yours...I find them sickening.

By the way, Bob, for someone who keeps harping on the possible assumptions someone else may present...you do a fine job at it yourself. Now how about you try and debate something concrete?

reply from: bobinsky

Your beliefs ARE just that: YOURS, and just because they are your beliefs does not make them right or wrong. They are merely your beliefs. No more, no less. So giving your beliefs credence over others' is without meaning. As far as you questioning my beliefs, well, with a pro-fetus/anti-woman mentality, I can see where you would disagree with me. And believe me, there is much about you and your views that I find sickening. Guess we're even. <---- No sarcasm here

The pro-lifers aren't an issue. It's an extremists like you. You're so out of the real world that you do not know what goes on at women's clinics with the extremist fringe of anti-choicers? You ever hear of Neal Horsley? Eric Rudolph (his little visit here in Atlanta was truly exciting)? Because of the lunatic fringe of anti-choicers who are busy showing how much they care about all life by killing and maiming clinic workers and doing millions of dollars of damage to clinics, those of us who volunteer at clinics must take precautions. Here's a link for you, although we both know you won't open it because you might learn something <---- NO sarcasm here. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm We never know when another Paul Hill might crop up. These guys are on your side. I'm sure you're proud of them.

"Violent protests, in the form of arson, firebombing, and vandalism started in the early 1970's in the U.S. Then, as now, most of the violence appears to be the acts of religiously-motivated criminals acting alone. However, recent cases involving the assassination and attempted murder of abortion providers in both the U.S. and Canada have shown that perpetrators appear to be sheltered by a network of sympathizers."
"In recent years, the term "anti-abortion" has been used to identify individuals and groups which employ violence and murder to attain their political ends. They are differentiated from the vastly larger "pro-life" movement which rejects violence against persons and property. Both the pro-life and anti-abortion movements are motivated by one concept: that human personhood begins at the instant of conception. From this principle, it naturally follows that a newly fertilized ovum, an embryo and a fetus are all human persons who should be granted the same rights, privileges and protections as a child or adult. Some view an abortion clinic as the ethical equivalent of a Nazi death camp."
"The pro-choice movement generally teaches that the fetus becomes a human person later in gestation, when it loses its neck structures which resemble gill slits, when it loses its tail, when it begins to look human, is viable, is born, or at some other transition point between conception and birth. From this viewpoint, a woman's access to a safe and affordable early abortion is viewed as a human right."

When you present something concrete other than your smarmy personal comments <---- NO sarcasm here - we might have a chance to debate.

reply from: sarah

Sure, bobbysue. I am glad to see you realize that a fetus is an unborn child, therefore making you an advocate for the killing of children.



Bait and switch doesn't work on me, bobbysue. We are talking about your little made up character Sue You...oh, oops, Yu being a bigot. It has nothing to do with the actual termination of a pregnancy. It has EVERYTHING to do with someone looking DOWN on another living human being due to the circumstances of their birth. But, YOU KNOW THAT. This is just another one of your silly little tactics. Hopefully someday soon you'll learn that doesn't work here. Creating red herrings is your forte, and completely pointless.

If you're saying I was trying to appeal to your sense of compassion, then you are wrong. I'm just stating facts. To be quite frank, I don't believe your level of compassion runs deep enough for such an appeal.



That's patently false. Let's see, what does that make you?



Well, bobbysue the next time you make up a story like that, perhaps you better paint your character as something less than an outright BIGOT. The next step would be to not end the story with a "dare", this little character went to the extra added length to make sure she got the desired results. When we didn't bite she added more vitriolics. I'm not surprised you would relate to a bigot, after all your hero MS has set a great example.

reply from: Amy

Ok honestly Bob...that's about enough. I have tried every tactic under the sun to get you to debate something of value and gotten nothing. You have proven worthless to me and I hope more people like you join the abortionists...you will do nothing but turn people away from any caring of your position whatsoever....again proving yourself worthless.

It is completely impossible to have discourse with someone who takes every point and even words of another person only to spin them around. You have no original thought in your head...no point to ever make...no want to find common or even logical ground on any issue. And clearly Bob, you make no sense whatsoever. To tell me my beliefs on something are of no consequence and asserting that yours...even though you never really relay them in any cogent fashion...are gospel. You tell others how wrong they are when you claim they are doing exactly what you have been doing. As another poster here told you...this forum was not put up for you to visit it seeking therapy.

Guess what Bob...you have no more knowledge on this issue then anyone else on this board

Your beliefs ARE just that: YOURS, and just because they are your beliefs does not make them right or wrong. They are merely your beliefs. No more, no less. So giving your beliefs credence over others' is without meaning. As far as you questioning my beliefs, well, with a pro-fetus/anti-woman mentality, I can see where you would disagree with me. And believe me, there is much about you and your views that I find sickening. Guess we're even. <---- No sarcasm here

Ok Bob...take a couple minutes and read what you just typed above and see if you find it as stupid as I do. I am hard pressed to find anyone who makes as little sense as you do. In one sentence you will say another persons opinions or beliefs are without any merit whatsoever as they oppose yours...even for themselves mind you...and then you espouse yours as if they should impress and enlighten someone...as if anyone can then take you seriously at all. The only thing your responses do is make me wonder why in the world I am wasting my time with someone who not only has little to no definable intellect, but someone who also has no desire to be civil and normal. Again, you give perfect example when someone else gives their opinion and you start ranting like you're insane claiming they are of no consequence and you will set them on the straight and narrow...immediately after you make some completely childish comments you apparently want to pose as wit...it's just nutty. Well guess what dear, I don't know who you think you are but I certainly hope you have better sense then to talk to people in person like you do on this board.

As for the rest of your drivel...honestly, I've grown very bored with it all. You don't answer any questions and you never come up with anything original. You just act like a petulant child. At first I was a little hopeful you could manage something even somewhat adult, then it was a bit amusing, then I realized I was trying to have a conversation with someone completely inept, and now it's just...yeah...boring.

When you grow up and can actually have a civil conversation then let me know...until then I will simply go back to making fun of the completely sophmorish jibes you try to throw out at others. Try reading some of Skippy's more honest and curious stuff and perhaps you can learn how not to sound like a complete dolt.

reply from: ChristianLott

Yawn away. Bobo is going to Hell and I am crying.

She still thinks murdering tiny innocent pre born babies is necessary for some deep down horrible loathsome reason.

Why do they find it necessary to attack the youngest and most helpless among us?

They deny Jesus and hold onto a promise from Lucifer.

reply from: Amy

Yawn away. Bobo is going to Hell and I am crying.

She still thinks murdering tiny innocent pre born babies is necessary for some deep down horrible loathsome reason.

Why do they find it necessary to attack the youngest and most helpless among us?

They deny Jesus and hold onto a promise from Lucifer.

CL I don't know where she is going after this life...I present that you don't either...that's between her and God. Let's leave it there.

As for this life...she's not intent on making sense or being even a moderately reasonable person...and is entirely too miserable.

These babies they condemn to a heinous death are a tool much like the women they hope to control through the process. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

reply from: yoda

In the sense that abortion is 99.99% sure to cause death, and rape only rarely results in death, you're probably right. Abortion, the " vicious, brutal attack" against a baby, is much the worse, because it nearly always takes a life.

Oh come on now! YOU coined this new phrase "pro-fetus" for prolifers, and now you won't admit that you are "anti-fetus"?

HYPOCRITE!


2017 ~ LifeDiscussions.org ~ Discussions on Life, Abortion, and the Surrounding Politics