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being prolife

by: carolemarie

First of all, it should mean that we listen to others and hear them, no matter what the pov.
It would mean caring just as much about the woman and the baby she is carrying and working to find real solutions to her problems and so that child can live...
It would mean caring about those who chose abortion in spite of what we told them.
It would mean recognizing that not all people agree with our premise, and being willing to listen to them and consider what they are saying, not just looking for a chance to take a shot!
It would mean not calling people babykillers and other unhelpful and mean names
It would mean respecting if not the abortion providers job, at least respecting them as a person and a medical professional
It would mean being radical about reaching out to those who oppose us, talking to and actually listening to those who we disagree with.

reply from: churchmouse

You have got to be kidding?
I am sorry I can't respect anyone that murders children in the womb. They are wrong, they are sinning. As I Christian you can love them as Christ commands but hate what they do, certainly not repect them.
They are not in a medical profession like any other physician. They kill for a living.
You just always fail to see this........amazing.

reply from: carolemarie

Whether you like it or not they are doctors, they have medical licences. You may not like what they do with that licence, but they are indeed Doctors.
I fail to see why that is so hard for you to comprehend.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well then I can think of some pro-lifers on here who FAIL that miserably.
This I 100% agree with, it even gives me warm fuzzies :3 THAT is what I consider MY core of being pro-life.
Forgiveness. We are all human; the woman who aborts is not our enemy. I feel she is often a victim herself.
Some "pro-lifers" on this forum fail at that too! I hope I came to this forum with that specific open mindset.
Oh, you'll never get certain "pro-lifers" on here to actually RESPECT the other side!! Ha! But I don't call them names.
This is how I think Jesus would be pro-life if he were here today. He would not be walking around and calling people baby killers.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Very nicely put, LCR.

reply from: Witness

Posted by CarolMarie: It would mean not calling people babykillers and other unhelpful and mean names It would mean respecting if not the abortion providers job, at least respecting them as a person and a medical professional
First of all, I don't believe we should call each other names. That's a child's thing. Once we grow up we should be done with that. However, killing babies is exactly what is being done. So I don't believe we should sugarcoat it either. If they can keep the argument away from the fact that children are killed, there's little point to the argument. We're not arguing that women shouldn't be able to have work done on their own bodies. What we are arguing is that they shouldn't have the right to kill someone while they're at it.
The "doctors" that Hitler used to experiement on the Jews also had licenses. Can you honestly say you respect their work? Killing children whether it's done by a licensed professional or a rabid dog is wrong and those that do it are not to be respected in any way.
I have to ask. Do you have a Bible? And, if so, have you read it? I'll give you just one of dozens of possible examples that apply. Take a look at how Jesus reacted to the Pharises. Do you think He respected them? They were the "ministers" of their day. Yet, He would rather eat with the prostitutes and thieves. Abortionists are not just killers. They take innocent lives. That is a very big deal to God.

reply from: churchmouse

No carole you don't get it.
Would you also have respected the doctors that carried out experimentation on the Jews during the Holocaust? They had medical licenses as well.
How about you Concerned should we respect them, because they dont know what they are doing? LOL
Doctors know EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. That is why most legitimate physicians look down on them. Oh I have documentation for that one if you want it.
Good people do not intentional kill a living human being. What the heck happened to the Hippocratic Oath?
Original version....." will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/doctors/oath_classical.html

Modern version........."I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous. I will neither prescribe nor administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life."
http://members.tripod.com/nktiuro/hippocra.htm


Today fewer and fewer doctors are doing abortions? Why?
This is not about showing tolerance and warm and fuzzies Liberal. Its about finding andknowing the difference between right and wrong, calling out the facts and dealing with them the best we know how.
Abortion is legal. But if every doctor in America refused to do them, what would happen?
Abortion used to be illegal before 1973. It was considered immoral and wrong. And most people know its still wrong, but condone it anyway. How is that right?
This has nothing to do with being open-minded......its about saying and doing what is right, no matter who you face.
I do not respect anyone that is pro-abortion. People make mistakes and I did just that. I can forgive, but won't and can not aid and abet, nor support or respect someone especially that misuses a licence to kill.
You think Liberal that there are those on this board that aren't tolerant...your talking about me, I don't know why you only laugh and can't just say my name......LOL I can't tolerate what I find to be immoral. I cant tolerate people that do immoral things, and that's what doctors do that dismember the unborn alive.
What is the pro-life fight all about? It not respecting the killers. Its calling them out on what they do. Its trying to find justice for the unborn.
What is sad is when you come up against people that think they stand up for the unborn like carole and don't because they try to find more compassion for the enemy than the victim.
What would Jesus do? Like overturning the tables in the temple......he would overturn the tables in the abortion mills. He would not tolerate the people doing the killing.
Do you respect rapists? Murderers? Pedofiles? Thiefs?
Or only if they have a degree? lol

Witness I agree you don't sugarcoat the act or anyone that kills the unborn child. The act is killing, murdering a living human being. I read your post after I mentioned Hitlers doctors......just shows that we have the upper hand in the argument about the inhumanity of the abortionist and the ridiculous assertion that doctors should be respected no matter what they do.

reply from: scopia1982

"Doctors know EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. That is why most legitimate physicians look down on them. Oh I have documentation for that one if you want it"
Churchmouse my uncle who'ss a plastic surgeon, often told me this, would you mind showing the documentation to shut the prochoicers up about them being legit doctors?When I think of abortionist Joesph Mengle is the the name that comes to mind.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

The ENTIRE original version of the Hippocratic Oath:
"I SWEAR by Apollo the physician, AEsculapius, and Health, and All-heal, and all the gods and goddesses, that, according to my ability and judgement, I will keep this Oath and this stipulation.
TO RECHON him who taught me this Art equally dear to me as my parents, to share my substance with him, and relieve his necessities if required; to look up his offspring in the same footing as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they shall wish to learn it, without fee or stipulation; and that by precept, lecture, and every other mode of instruction, I will impart a knowledge of the Art to my own sons, and those of my teachers, and to disciples bound by a stipulation and oath according the law of medicine, but to none others.
I WILL FOLLOW that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous. I will give no deadly medicine to any one if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give a woman a pessary to produce abortion.
WITH PURITY AND WITH HOLINESS I will pass my life and practice my Art. I will not cut persons laboring under the stone, but will leave this to be done by men who are practitioners of this work. Into whatever houses I enter, I will go into them for the benefit of the sick, and will abstain from every voluntary act of mischief and corruption; and, further from the seduction of females or males, of freemen and slaves.
WHATEVER, IN CONNECTION with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.
WHILE I CONTINUE to keep this Oath unviolated, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and the practice of the art, respected by all men, in all times! But should I trespass and violate this Oath, may the reverse be my lot!"
Sorry, no "God", no "Jesus", no "Christ" - and a "pessary" is this:
pes·sa·ry /?p?s?ri/ - noun, plural -ries. Medicine/Medical.
1. a device worn in the vagina to support a displaced uterus.
2. a vaginal suppository.
No mention of surgery or oral drugs there.
As far as the "modern" version, it's on a UROLOGY website. What's that about?

reply from: scopia1982

No most legit ob/gyn look down on abortionists. There are plenty of reputable OB/Gyn that will not perform abortions. Abortionists are just that, all they do is perform abortions or abortions are the majority of the services they provide. A legit Ob/gyn does well woman care, prenatal care, treatment of gyn problems, cancer etc.

reply from: scopia1982

How is butchering a woman and an unborn child well woman care? Let me define "well woman care" Pap smears to test for cervical cancer, pelvic exam to check for lumps and bumps in the uterus and breast exams and mammograms to detect breast cancer.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

You wouldn't get a vasectomy done by a podiatrist, would you? Or have your dentist repair a herniated disk in your back? How about having your optometrist do a knee replacement? Or your family practitioner give you radiation treatment and chemotherapy?
We have specialists for EVERY part of the body for good reasons.
God, some of you are so ignorant that you shouldn't be allowed to reproduce.

reply from: Cecilia

I thought most of your post was quite well expressed, but like others I take issue with the same statement: It would mean respecting if not the abortion providers job, at least respecting them as a person and a medical professional
If I were anti abortion I would not respect the physicians who provide the service, and I don't expect people against choice to either. On a purely logical level alone.
For example I have a scathing dislike of ambulance chaser lawyers. What kind of person picks that job and stays with it? I am not saying that I automatically dislike the person but would be incredibly leery of them. Their profession doesn't instantly garner my respect nor doe their choice of profession have any weight with me either. Does thats make sense?

reply from: scopia1982

You have more medical students that are choosing OB/gyn as their area of specialty refusing to learn how to do abortions, than those who do choose it. Many abortionist are retiring or dying off and fewer are entering the industry to replace them. A true physician is a healer a preserver of human life. An abortionists is just the opposite a taker of life.

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion providers are medical professionals. They went to medical school, they earned a degree. They have a different POV than I do, but I don't attribute evil to them. I can actually talk about what they do and why it is wrong without resorting to name calling and trying to make them out to be monsters. Because most do abortions because they care about women and think they are helping them.

reply from: scopia1982

I am sorry CM, they may have a medical degree and went to medical school, but a doctor is a healer, not a murderer. Maybe my abortion clouds my judgment, but all they care about is money, not women. I will call them what they are. Murderers. Butchers. I am generally a compassionate person, but I have no sympathy or compassion for those who work in the abortion industry, especially those who perform them. They are as bad as child molesters, rapist, child abuser, wife beaters, need I say more?

reply from: carolemarie

Then by the same logic you should have no compassion or lconcern for someone who gets an abortion.
They are the one responsible, not the provider.

reply from: Cecilia

I am sorry CM, they may have a medical degree and went to medical school, but a doctor is a healer, not a murderer. Maybe my abortion clouds my judgment, but all they care about is money, not women. I will call them what they are. Murderers. Butchers. I am generally a compassionate person, but I have no sympathy or compassion for those who work in the abortion industry, especially those who perform them. They are as bad as child molesters, rapist, child abuser, wife beaters, need I say more?
Another person against choice also against finanically compensating doctors for their services requested by their patients.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but Is it not a logical assumption that a continued pregnancy garners more money than an abortion? Wouldn't a greedy physician simply turn towards a prolife obgyn practice?

reply from: scopia1982

I actually do have compassion or concern for the one who gets the abortion. How many woman feel like that is the "only choice" they have? THe employer says its the child or job, family says the child or us etc? It is the abortion providers that are the evil ones, they profit off of the suffering of a woman and death of the baby. I have no sympathy for the pimps who gets a woman hooked on drugs and sends her out on the street, but i have compassion and sympathy for the prostitute who has found herself trapped in that lifestyle, who feels there is no hope or way out.

reply from: carolemarie

volume.
you can see more patients in one day for a set fee, you set the time the service is provided, unlike babies who come whenever they choose.
The early abortions are like 10 minutes total with the Dr. -no follow up or further messing with the patient.
Very profitable.

reply from: Cecilia

Ah I see what you are saying with that - do you know of any sites or links to further verify your point?

reply from: scopia1982

Why is that people support abortion cannot say they support abortion? Why do they have to use their fancy euphemisms? Abortion is more profitable because you can run practice like an assembly line. 10-15 a day at 300-500 a pop adds up real fast.

reply from: carolemarie

I didn't have a bad experience with the abortion providers I used. They were nice, polite and did their job with no complications. I think that as long as you hate them and villify them you will ever be able to care about them. That is how people get crazy enough to gun them down.

reply from: carolemarie

I will see about sites...I am sure if you go to pph site and ask how long it takes to perform an 8 week procedure they will have the information.

reply from: scopia1982

Mine was a horrible experience. I dont want to gun them down. Vengance is mine saith the Lord. I hate them because of what they do, I hate child molesters, wife beaters, rapists and if that is a sin I will answer to God for it. They are villians, monsters, murderers, butchers, what else can you call them except for what they are. I generally dont use bad names and refrain from labeling people, but I wont sugarcoat this.

reply from: churchmouse

Scopia I would be happy to do this.
I would suggest getting Mark Crutchers book LIME 5. He documents everything from dirty abortion clinics, abortion deaths to studies, polls, and interviews with one time abortion providers.....nurses doctors. He sites magazine articles, books.......a great book. And he gives court cases with the actual court numbers of actual cases.
Do abortion doctors, nurses know what they are doing?
Abortionist David Zbaraz told the Washington Post, "It's a nasty, dirty, yucky thing and I always come home angry." The article went on to say that, "on those days when he performs an abortion, his wife can tell as soon as he walks in the door."
Washington Post 3/3/80
In a New York Times editorial, Dr. Susan Conde said, "I observed during my medical training as an Australian physician many abortions by experienced practitioners. They experienced without exception, physical revulsion and moral bewilderment."
New York Times, 10/19/94
Abortionist Warren Hern once observed, "Increasingly doctors have been made to deal irrelevant. Feminist abortion clinics treat doctors like technicians and are especially contemptuous of male physicians. Entrepreneurs who treat abortion strictly as a retail business also tend to treat doctors as technicians. Doctors who perform abortions have usually acquiesced in these roles, and their status has plummeted lower than that of physicians who do insurance company examinations."
New York Times 3/13/93
In a paper presented to Planned Parenthood conference, Dr. Warren Hern reported a intense emotional reaction from his staff after D&E operations. These included "physiological symptoms, sleep disturbances, effect on personal relationships, and moral anguish." He observed that the staff's reactions to the fetus ranged from refusal to look, dismay, and amazement, to disgust, fear and sadness. The abortionist admitted that the procedure also caused him problems, saying, "The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electrical current."
Warren Hern and Billie Corrigan, "What About Us? Staff Reactions to the D&E Procedure," presented at a meeting of the Association of Planned Parenthood Physicians, San Diego, 10/26/78
One doctor who was dedicated to performing abortions eventually had to quit his obstetrics practice to alleviate his conflicts: "I felt that you can't do both. You do a delivery and then do a late term abortion," he says. "I couldn't take the emotional roller-coaster ride."
Karen Tumulty, "The Abortion Of Last Resort" Los Angeles Times, 1/7/90
One abortionist confessed, "As a physician I'm trained to conserve life and here I am destroying life....I guess I feel guilty because according to the Hippocratic oath you're not supposed to do abortions. So how could you be trained and raised one way and suddenly be told it ok to do it?" He went on to talk about his experience with saline abortions and the fact that the fetus moves around before the injection, thrashes around immediately after it, but then the movement ceases: "You know that there is something alive in there that you're killing."
Magda Denes, In Necessity and Sorrow, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976.
Finally a Florida newspaper quotes abortionist Robert Crist, lamenting that some physicians who don't do abortions treat him :like a second class citizen. Some of the ones who do-especially the younger, inexperienced ones- have added to an increased level of discomfort." Later in the article, Crist says he knows of others who have quit because the "stigma had become overwhelming."
St. Petersburg times, 6/3/90
Abortionist Morris Wortman says, "Abortion has failed to escape its back-alley association." In his mind it is still treated as the "dark side of medicine....Even when abortion became legal, it was still considered dirty."
Democrat and Chronicle 7/5/92
Bruce Stier came under attack because it was known that he would be performing abortions. He recalls that one day shortly after the Roe decision, as he was scrubbing up, a colleague standing next to him asked, "So Bruce, how many babies are you going to kill today?
San Francisco Chronicle 3/22/93
Abortionist David Grimes, formerly with the Abortion Surveillance Branch of the Centers for Disease Control, writes, "Clinicians whose practice is limited to abortion services may become estranged from the medical community.
The Philadelphia Inquirer 7/18/93
A Birmingham Alabama, physician told an Atlanta newspaper that "the majority of abortionists are seen by their peers as not able to do well in other areas of medical practice, so they gravitate toward abortions for the money."
Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 5/16/93
The D&E procedure meets a lot of resistance by abortionists, with the head of obstetrics at a Philadelphia teaching hospital admitting that they are "far more 'psychologically traumatizing' for doctors....I can't do them anymore."
Philadelphia Inquirer, 7/18/93
In a Glamour magazine article, an Ob/Gyn resident said she sees the abortion stigma in school administrators, faculty, and their peers who give the impression that "abortion is a sleazy and offensive procedure....A doctor who does abortions-even if they are only a small part of her practice-is known as an abortionist. This label is supposed to be the kiss of death for any professional hopes she might have."
Anonymous, "Why I am an Abortionist," Glamour, October 1993
The view that abortionists are the black sheep of the medical community appears to be pretty universal, even among abortion supporters. An Ohio medical student observed, "There's a real stigma on physicians who provide abortion. It almost like: They do abortions. They don't do real medicine."
S. G. White, "Under the Gunn," Hartford Advocate, 4/15/93
Sallie Tisdale, a nurse in an abortion clinic writes, "There are weary, grim moments when I think I cannot bear another basin of bloody remains, utter another kind phrase of reassurance....'How can I stand it?' even the clients ask. They see the machine, the strange instruments, the blood, the final stroke that wipes away the promise of pregnancy. Sometimes I see that too: I watch a woman's swollen abdomen sink to softness in a few stuttering moments and my own belly flip-flops with sorrow."
Sallie Tisdale, "We Do Abortions Here," Harper's Magazine, October 1987.
During a workshop sponsored by the national Abortion Federation, one nurse described her horror as an abortionist she worked for pulled out a cannula and a tiny foot was sticking out of it."
Diane Gianelli, "Abortion Providers Share Inner Conflicts," American Medical News, 7/12/93.
A director of nursing points out that some of the later term fetuses are "getting pretty big....it is very traumatic for the staff to pick this up and put it in a container and say, 'Okay that's going to the incinerator."
Magda Denes, In Necessity and Sorrow, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976
"You have to be a bit schizophrenic. In one room you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity of the fetal heart is not important, everything is going well, she is going to have a nice baby, and then you shut the door and go into the next room and assure another patient on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it's fine if the heart is already irregular, she has nothing to worry about, she is not going to have a live baby. You have to make a 180 degree turn, but somehow it evolved in my own mind gradually."
Magda Denes, In Necessity and Sorrow, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976
Researchers Constance Nathanson and Marshall Becker observed, "Some studies have suggested that some physicians experience considerable personal disturbances over the abortion procedure itself."
Nathanson and Becker's own study found that 41.8% of Maryland Ob/Gyns who support the Roe v Wade ruling are often or sometimes disturbed by abortion. Of those who are disturbed, 37.1% admit that the disturbance is severe or moderate.
Constance A. Nathanson and Marshall H. Becker, "The Influence of Physicians' Attitudes on Abortion performance, Patient Management and Professional Fees," Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1977
Alexander Sanger, president of Planned Parenthood of New York City, pointed out that, "Back in the early 70's, Planned Parenthood led the fight to get abortions to be done in outpatient clinics, and it seemed like a good idea at the time, a way of providing easy access to good, cheap care....But it turns out that it has led to a stigmatization of abortion, as something most doctors opt out of.
New York Times, 3/22/92
A study of 130 San Francisco abortion clinic workers conducted between January 1984 and March 1985 found that 77% of them see abortion as a destructive act against a living thing, and 18% actually talked about it as murder. The study's author stated, "Particularly striking was the fact that discomfort with abortion clients or procedures was reported by practioners who strongly supported abortion rights and expressed strong commitment to their work. This preliminary finding suggested that even those who supported a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy may be struggling with an important tension between their formal beliefs and the situated experience of their abortion work. "
Kathleen M. Roe, "Private Troubles and Public Issues," Social Science and Medicine, Vol.29,No. 10
There are hundreds more in Crutchers book.

reply from: carolemarie

Didn't say it was fun or that I liked it, but I chose to purchase that service.
It was terrible that you were forced into an abortion you didn't want and I can see how that shapes your viewpoint.
I just think that most people working in the abortion industry or those obtaining abortions are not evil, they are just ordinary people who are wrong....how we talk about and to them holds the key to reaching hearts and minds that are closed to being called evil baby killers....

reply from: churchmouse

Scopia you make a good point.
They just cant use the word "kill".......they substitute terminate for the real act. At least on this site you can have free speech and call someone what they really are. Beliefnet is one site that will allow pro-aborts to say anything and use any terms they want and those that are pro-life hands are tied. The site is pro-choice and the moderators are pro-aborts.
Mine was the opposite. No one talked. It was deathly quiet. Those of us waiting in line sat in silence and the staff did as well. The doctor did not say one word to me, nor did the nurses other than to tell me what to do. It hurt so bad during it.......that I said, I didn't think I could continue. The nurse said one thing. Its to late, hold still. Did not hold my hand or try to comfort my sobs. NOTHING.
I will never forget it. But then why should killing feel good. Was my unborn in pain?
I do not believe in violence either but I hate what they do. I can not respect anyone that works in the building. Like you said, you call them for what they are and what they do.

reply from: yoda

"Ordinary people" do evil things sometimes, whether that makes them "evil" is another question, probably not worth getting into.
The best example, of course, is how "ordinary people" in Nazi Germany went along with the "final solution to the Jewish question". I read the account of one of Hitler's secretaries who heard about the extermination camps, and asked him about it. He told her to mind her own business. But that goes to show that most "ordinary" Germans knew exactly what was going on, and did nothing to stop it, or even complain about it.
Under certain conditions of stress and/or temptation, most people will give in and do evil things, especially if they see others doing it first.
I guess most prolifers would agree that a person who commits (or assists) abortions for a living is "evil". I certainly would.

reply from: carolemarie

I thought most of your post was quite well expressed, but like others I take issue with the same statement: It would mean respecting if not the abortion providers job, at least respecting them as a person and a medical professional
If I were anti abortion I would not respect the physicians who provide the service, and I don't expect people against choice to either. On a purely logical level alone.
For example I have a scathing dislike of ambulance chaser lawyers. What kind of person picks that job and stays with it? I am not saying that I automatically dislike the person but would be incredibly leery of them. Their profession doesn't instantly garner my respect nor doe their choice of profession have any weight with me either. Does thats make sense?[/q
yes, you may hate what someone does, but you can at least treat them with the same respect you would any other human being....
And for those who had abortions....actually they owe the provider an apology for hiring him to do such an evil act. Each of us who is now prolife, is guilty of dragging the abortion provider into our sins and it is blame shifting to cry poor victim me, its the evil doctors fault when you were the one wanting the abortion.
Does that make any sense?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

reply from: carolemarie

I use to blame the abortion providers and think how horrible they were to not tell me the information I didn't ask for....but the truth is it was my fault, not theirs...I believe the Dr. thought they were helping me. But abortion never helps women.
And quite frankly, it is easier for me to care about them when I decide to see them as poor duped individuals rather than mass murderers...

reply from: ChristopherLaRock

What about the sadistic late-term abortionists who resort to torturous and barbaric abortion methods when killing post-viable infants?

reply from: nancyu

This is what it means to be pro "manners" pro "being nice". None of this has one single thing to do with being pro life.
We have to do what we have to do to stop abortion. We have to stop people like you, who try to distract from that purpose by crying foul when someone uses a bad word, or calls someone a bad name.
I will never never never never show respect to an abortion provider for being a person or a medical professional. It is neither.

reply from: scopia1982

"I use to blame the abortion providers and think how horrible they were to not tell me the information I didn't ask for....but the truth is it was my fault, not theirs...I believe the Dr. thought they were helping me. But abortion never helps women. "
Information you did not ask for? If you ask I doubt they would have given it too you. There job is sell abortions and giving information that may make it sound like a not too good"choice" or other options would drain their pocket books.
"And quite frankly, it is easier for me to care about them when I decide to see them as poor duped individuals rather than mass murderers..."
Are child molesters just poor duped individuals? I care about the women and the babies, the abortionist wound and slaughter. I care about the child that the molester victamizes, not the perpetrator.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If being polite is "pro-manners" then fine, I am 100% pro-manners.

reply from: yoda

So you went from one extreme to the other.
No, I don't think they thought they were helping you, they most likely didn't give a crap about you, they just wanted your money.
Why do you try to make heroes out of baby killers?

reply from: yoda

Then why not go post on a "pro-manners" forum?

reply from: scopia1982

I can be polite as the next person, raised by my aunt and uncle until the age of 13, my aunt taught me all the concepts of good manners and molding me into a stereotypical southern belle. But she also taught me to stand up for what I believe in and what is right and wrong. There are some things in this world that cannot be sugarcoated and this is one of them.

reply from: nancyu

I can be polite as the next person, raised by my aunt and uncle until the age of 13, my aunt taught me all the concepts of good manners and molding me into a stereotypical southern belle. But she also taught me to stand up for what I believe in and what is right and wrong. There are some things in this world that cannot be sugarcoated and this is one of them.
There is a proper place and time for kindness and good manners, and it's not where, or while, babies are being slaughtered.

reply from: churchmouse

Absolutely not. I did it of my own free will.
AMEN AMEN AMEN
"If being polite is "pro-manners" then fine, I am 100% pro-manners."
How does this help the unborn?

reply from: Witness

Posted by CarolMarie: Abortion providers are medical professionals. They went to medical school, they earned a degree. They have a different POV than I do, but I don't attribute evil to them. I can actually talk about what they do and why it is wrong without resorting to name calling and trying to make them out to be monsters. Because most do abortions because they care about women and think they are helping them.
You've obviously never met Tiller, Sella, or Carhart. All are evil personified.

reply from: carolemarie

1. In order for someone to change positions, they have to at least feel that they are not being attacked. Why would you want to create a situtation where you have an enemy to hate? People can be sincerely wrong about things, but treating them hatefully will not make them see the light. You have to be willing to listen to the other side and find some area that you can agree with if anything will ever change.
2. Jesus said those without sin can cast the first stone.
3. We are suppose to pray for our enemies and those who spitefully use us.
4. We are not to repay evil with evil
5. We are to forgive those who hurt us
We don't have the option to hate other people.....

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Then why not go post on a "pro-manners" forum?
Because I like annoying you with kindness. I hope that someday you'll change too.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I can be polite as the next person, raised by my aunt and uncle until the age of 13, my aunt taught me all the concepts of good manners and molding me into a stereotypical southern belle. But she also taught me to stand up for what I believe in and what is right and wrong. There are some things in this world that cannot be sugarcoated and this is one of them.
Forgot where the edit button was?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Absolutely not. I did it of my own free will.
AMEN AMEN AMEN
"If being polite is "pro-manners" then fine, I am 100% pro-manners."
How does this help the unborn?
I'm pretty sure Mother Teresa wouldn't be caught DEAD saying half the things "compassionate" pro-lifers say on here. Yet you won't deny for a second that she helped the unborn and was on their side.
Martin Luther managed to be effective without being a jackass.
Ghandi managed to free an ENTIRE NATION without one curse word.
Jesus saved every open heart in out entire world without uttering a single curse word and by only LOVING.
So you tell me. How does being a jackass or a bitch or a mean-spirited dick help the unborn?

reply from: carolemarie

I didn't ask for information because I am not stupid and I already knew exactly what I was doing. I was 15, not stupid.
I will agree that I was probably more informed than most women because I talk to so many who didn't know hardly anything, and those who were lied to or given half truths. The abortion industry doesn't seem to want to disclose the infomration women need.

reply from: carolemarie

Nancy
Usually calling people babykillers and other names just makes them mad and they don't hear what you have to say. That means they stay prochoice!
Speaking with civility is a grownup way to discuss an issue. I do realise that it is hard for those who are immature to restrain themselves, but anyone who is over 16 ought to be able to do that.

reply from: carolemarie

So you went from one extreme to the other.
No, I don't think they thought they were helping you, they most likely didn't give a crap about you, they just wanted your money.
Why do you try to make heroes out of baby killers?
It doesn't make them a hero to be treated as a human being.

reply from: carolemarie

I have been at the clinic. I feel sorry for Tiller. His dad did abortions before it was legal and now he is doing abortions....that is sad.

reply from: yoda

No, in order for someone to change positions, they have to have a change of heart from within. We cannot do that from without.
We can't realistically hope to change a proabort's position here. All we can do here is learn how to defeat their arguments. And we don't need to make friends with them to do that.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I have been at the clinic. I feel sorry for Tiller. His dad did abortions before it was legal and now he is doing abortions....that is sad.
I just have to say HA! to Witness XD You showed her!

reply from: yoda

And become a proabort? Not gonna happen..... don't hold your breath.

reply from: yoda

I'm thrilled and honored that you say good things about MT.
How do you like my quote from her?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No Yoda, you are wrong in this case, you have always been wrong and unless you change your mind you will always BE wrong.

reply from: yoda

No, but to insist on being polite to a baby killer does.

reply from: yoda

In what way?
Or do you just like saying that I am "wrong"?

reply from: carolemarie

God forbid you act like a grown up and be polite to someone you disagree with!

reply from: Witness

Posted by carolmarie: 1. In order for someone to change positions, they have to at least feel that they are not being attacked. Why would you want to create a situtation where you have an enemy to hate? People can be sincerely wrong about things, but treating them hatefully will not make them see the light. You have to be willing to listen to the other side and find some area that you can agree with if anything will ever change.
2. Jesus said those without sin can cast the first stone.
3. We are suppose to pray for our enemies and those who spitefully use us.
4. We are not to repay evil with evil
5. We are to forgive those who hurt us
We don't have the option to hate other people.....
I don't treat them with hate, but to pretend what they do is anything but wrong is also wrong. Jesus did not treat those who did wrong with respect. Being polite, not callling people names --- those are things we can agree on. Behaving as if what an abortionist does should in any way be respected just because he/she is a licensed professional, is wrong.
Ephesians 5:11 "Have NOTHING to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."
Deuteronomy 27:25 "CURSED is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person."
My most common request of Tiller is that he repent and accept Jesus. I want the man saved and I pray he is, but you'll never get me to believe I should honor his work. He's honored enough by proaborts. Let the blood of the children be on their hands.
Deuteronomy 19:10 "Do this so that innocent blood will not be shed in your land . . . so that you will not be guilty of bloodshed."
Exodus 23:7 "Have NOTHING to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty."
That last one tells us that we don't have to be killng the children to be considered guilty of their deaths by God. We just have to appear to side with the killers. Therefore, we must not respect their work for fear of being counted as agreeing with them -- understand?
I don't hate him. I don't abuse him. I plead with him to come to Jesus and stop killing the children. Literally, I'm the children's beggar -- one of many to be sure. But there's no hate in my work. You are right about that. It's a fruitless undertaking. Pleading with someone in love because you honestly care about them is an entirely different thing. I don't have to respect him to love him in Christ.

reply from: Witness

Posted by Witness: You've obviously never met Tiller, Sella, or Carhart. All are evil personified.
Posted by CarolMarie: I have been at the clinic. I feel sorry for Tiller. His dad did abortions before it was legal and now he is doing abortions....that is sad.
Many cold-blooded killers have something in their background that is sad. It doesn't mean we should respect them.

reply from: churchmouse

And yet you said what you said especially on the FAithman alive or dead thread. LOL
LOL
Kindness?............"Your are a pig go rot" Remember saying that Little Miss Hypocrite?
And what would Mother Teresa think of your mouth eh? LOL
"
"Pig-go rot" ? LMAO
You are something else I will say that.
You mean like vexing does my dear?
For someone Liberal says is pro-life........vexing sure has a funny way of showing it.
You are bizarre. You feel sorry for Tiller. Ahhhhhhhhh Do you also feel sorry for Hitler, and Pol Pot and Sadam?
Never the real victim for you carole......unbelievable.
Being at a clinic does not mean that you know or have met someone. Although I am sure carole would love to personally meet Tiller you know to make friends with him.
Most hilarious statement of the day......goes to Little Miss Liberal who said,
You only wish you knew and had as much wisdom as Yoda has. LOL

reply from: nancyu

Gee wiz Carole. So it's my fault that you are still pro choice? I'm sorry, but if I respected you as a person I would treat you kindly, but I don't, so I won't. And I won't take advice on how to treat people from someone whom I have zero respect for. (Yes, I mean you.) Put me back on ignore.

reply from: carolemarie

Gee wiz Carole. So it's my fault that you are still pro choice? I'm sorry, but if I respected you as a person I would treat you kindly, but I don't, so I won't. And I won't take advice on how to treat people from someone whom I have zero respect for. (Yes, I mean you.) Put me back on ignore.
???? I am prolife, not prochoice.

reply from: carolemarie

I never said to respect what they did, I said to give them some respect for being a medical professional, to treat them like a fellow human being...
go back and read it without the knee-jerk reaction
It isn't okay to hate someone for what they do...and calling them names and heaping abuse on them is not right either...
you can tell the truth without being hateful...

reply from: carolemarie

And yet you said what you said especially on the FAithman alive or dead thread. LOL
I said that the board was better without him...that isn't hate at all. I don't hate him...

reply from: nancyu

Gee wiz Carole. So it's my fault that you are still pro choice? I'm sorry, but if I respected you as a person I would treat you kindly, but I don't, so I won't. And I won't take advice on how to treat people from someone whom I have zero respect for. (Yes, I mean you.) Put me back on ignore.
???? I am prolife, not prochoice.
Oh? You mean I can't make you pro choice by being mean to you?

reply from: nancyu

And yet you said what you said especially on the FAithman alive or dead thread. LOL
I said that the board was better without him...that isn't hate at all. I don't hate him...
HaHAHaHAHaHAHaHAHaHAHaHAHaHA. You crack me up.

reply from: churchmouse

carolemarie said,
Why would you respect someone that kills the unborn child? Simply because he or she has a degree that gives them the right to kill?
Man oh man........So what someone is a doctor? big whoopin deal. Like they are better than anyone else simply because they have a degree?
My grandfather was a doctor, I have nothing against doctors in fact I have three uncles and one cousin that are doctors......I am proud to say that none kill unborn babies.... They try to save them.
"And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables" -John 2:15
I cant remember carole if you are a Christian or not....but if you are get out your Bible and read these scriptures that show what Jesus did when He got mad.
In John 4:18, Jesus tells the woman that she is an adulterer (Matthew 5:32). If He overthrew the tables he certainly could have been in this womans face.
Jesus even namecalled.
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." -Matthew 12:34
Wow was he calm and collected? He called it as He saw it. Could you say that Jesus was very nice here?
"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." -Matthew 16:23
Jesus called Peter Satan. Wow.
"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" -John 6:70
He called one of the twelve a devil.
Jesus nice and loving only spoke words of kindness?
Yea right.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" -Matthew 25:41
Christ here actually saying that people will one day burn in the torments of an everlasting fire. How politically correct was He?
How politically correct was He when He said this Carole?................"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." -John 14:6
He was adamant that there is ONLY ONE WAY TO HEAVEN...
You make Christ out to be a wimp. He called sin what actually sin was. And He called a sinner out on the sin committed. He certainly would throw over the abortion tables in the abortion mills. He also would have called the woman a sinner.....and he would have called the abortionist a devil or satan.
He certainly would not have shown respect for someone that was a killer. God loves children.
Jesus was outspoken and certainly did not worry about offending anyone. He flipped over tables, threw things on the floor, used a whip to drive them out of the building.
I can see Him doing that at every PP clinic around the country. He spoke the truth in Word and in action.
RESPECT........YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING.

reply from: carolemarie

What makes you think you get to hate them? Does your bible say you get to hate and dehumanize other people? There is a line and you don't get to hate abortion providers or anyone else.
I will say that you chose to pay a Doctor to perform an abortion, and now you have decided to hate them for doing what you paid them to do. You were not a victim, you were not forced, you were not a teenager. You thought it was okay, well they (the providers) believe it is okay as well...
Why that is so hard to understand?
And yes, I am a Christian.

reply from: scopia1982

I depise abortionists. I was a teenager, I was forced, I told them I didnt want it they gassed me and did anyway.My ex boyfriend paid them, not me. As long as these people are allowed to practice their trade it can still happen to other women.Just because they have a medical degree doesnt make them a "doctor". A doctor is a healer, a person who alleviates suffering, these people kill and cause suffering. A doctor has to earn the respect of people to be respected as physcians, it isnt automatic. I do and will pray for these people, that is all I can do. My uncle was a plastic surgeon, he did reconstructive surgery on breast cancer patients, burn victims, children with cleft lip/palates etc. Rarely did he do pure elective surgeries. Hes retired now, but when he practiced he conducted himself as a moral and ethical professional. He took the oath he swore when he graduated med school seriously, especially to do no harm or perform an abortion. Abortionists violate that very oath on a daily basis and loose the their right to be respected as a healer or to be addressed by the title of doctor.

reply from: carolemarie

I depise abortionists. I was a teenager, I was forced, I told them I didnt want it they gassed me and did anyway.My ex boyfriend paid them, not me. As long as these people are allowed to practice their trade it can still happen to other women.Just because they have a medical degree doesnt make them a "doctor". A doctor is a healer, a person who alleviates suffering, these people kill and cause suffering. A doctor has to earn the respect of people to be respected as physcians, it isnt automatic. I do and will pray for these people, that is all I can do. My uncle was a plastic surgeon, he did reconstructive surgery on breast cancer patients, burn victims, children with cleft lip/palates etc. Rarely did he do pure elective surgeries. Hes retired now, but when he practiced he conducted himself as a moral and ethical professional. He took the oath he swore when he graduated med school seriously, especially to do no harm or perform an abortion. Abortionists violate that very oath on a daily basis and loose the their right to be respected as a healer or to be addressed by the title of doctor.
____________________________________________________________
I wasn't talking to you. That was to Churchmouse.
Your situtation is very rare. You are hardly the norm. Most abortions done on women,are not at gunpoint when they are telling the staff they don't want one.
If you are concerned about this happening to someone else, press charges against that crazy Dr. and protect them from him. That would go a long way to getting some justice for yourself and your child.
To get back to my point, respect them for what you can respect, not performing abortions, but for whatever you can find to treat them as a person. If you can't respect the work it took to get through medical school, then perhaps the fact that they are a fellow human being created in the image of God would be enough to quit the name calling and hate and treat them as people.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Emotional coercion is still coercion. Many prisoners are forced to sign consent forms for torture. You'd be amazed what someone will "wiling" do under emotional force. They're not willing, they're terrified. Emotional force is still FORCE, and sometimes more damaging than physical force, because then the woman has the additional guilt of "Oh, why didn't I just resist him physically, why didn't I kick and bite and scream?" It's NOT HER FAULT and guilting her is not right at all! Under emotional force, she may as well have been tied down, dragged there physically, abused. May as well have been, since she's going to mentally beat herself up for not physically resisting. But she knew she would possibly get physically abused if she didn't go along. Mental anguish can last longer than any bruise can.
If you've never been emotionally coerced then I suppose you will never understand. I hope that this is one thing you never WILL understand. But you could sympathise, you could at least TRY.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

And become a proabort? Not gonna happen..... don't hold your breath.
I'm not a proabort and never was.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm thrilled and honored that you say good things about MT.
How do you like my quote from her?
I love it. She doesn't call any woman a murderer, or a baby killer, or anything like that, she doesn't insult anyone.. yet she still gets her point across.

reply from: yoda

Wow, what a disappointment that would be..... to know that we don't have the power to make people hate unborn babies by being rude to them?
Gosh, I hate to give up "power" like that, don't you?

reply from: yoda

I will say that you chose to pay a hitman to murder someone, and now you have decided to hate them for doing what you paid them to do. You were not a victim, your were not forced, you were not a teenager. You thought it was okay, well they (the murderers) believe it is okay as well.... why is that so hard to understand?
What's really, really hard for me to understand is that IF the "abortion provider" as you call him is not evil, and the woman paying him is not evil, they how does the evil of abortion occur?
Hey, SOMEONE is doing something EVIL when they have an elective abortion, are they not?
Or do we just declare that abortion is a "victimless crime" and hug and kiss everyone who is involved in the business of killing millions of babies?

reply from: yoda

You don't, and never did support elective abortion????
HOLD THE PRESSES.... LIB IS CHANGING HISTORY!!!

reply from: Witness

Posted by CarolMarie: I never said to respect what they did, I said to give them some respect for being a medical professional, to treat them like a fellow human being...
go back and read it without the knee-jerk reaction
It isn't okay to hate someone for what they do...and calling them names and heaping abuse on them is not right either...
you can tell the truth without being hateful...
You go back and read what I wrote in the post previous to the one you responded to. I don't hate them or treat them with hate, but respect them as a medical professional -- not a chance. They kill babies for money. That makes them killers. I don't respect any killer no matter what title or degree they kill by. It's still murder. They're still responsible. That alone makes them unrespectible.

reply from: scopia1982

No he had a gun on him, he had the proper permit to carry a concealed weapon. He told me if I didnt go he would shoot me in the head and also threatened my family. The abortionist was a friend of the family, affialted with the local hospital where his mother worked and still does work I think. I signed the consent form under duress, even though legally at 17 I couldnt have consented to anything. They just wrote that I was born a year earlier. I asked them to call my mom, I told them I did not want this. I thought that if I went, I bought the choice rhetoric that abortionist were "medical professionals" and I naively thought if I told them what was going on, they would call the police. I was on the table, when I tried to make a run for it a nurse put a mask over my face and that was all I remember until I came too.. I know what happened that day, I was there. I am sorry if you dont believe me, but as the saying goes "the truth is often stranger than fiction". I did later find out that the clinic has had 2 investigations of performing abortions without a liscence and were sued by the mother of a 17 year old girl in the mid 1990s for performing an abortion on her without consent. Of course, nothing became of them as they are still killing everyday.

reply from: scopia1982

You are on a public forum and therefore subject to rebuttal from anyone on here. If you want to keep it private then PM her. I cannot press criminal charges because technically, they did nothing illegal. Research the case of JaneRoeIIvsAwareWoman to understand why. I have considered a civil suit, but I think the best option at this point in time is too try and let the public know that they perform abortions. It is pretty hush hush affair here. I think if I could help shut them down and run them out on a rail, would be better than a drawn out court battle. I will go so far to say that an abortionist is a human being, but a physician, give them the respect of a healer never. I will call them out for what they are.

reply from: carolemarie

Why don't you check with a lawyer and see if you can sue rather than assume you can't? Every case is different and unless you are a lawyer, you may miss something.
But that aside, it has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
You can't reasonably expect to call someone names and to find them changing their position in response to it. I assume you want the providers to quit?
The prolifers have been name calling for 30+ years....time to stop.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You don't, and never did support elective abortion????
HOLD THE PRESSES.... LIB IS CHANGING HISTORY!!!
I do not consider proabort and pro-choice to mean the same thing.
I was NOT only pro-abortion. I was also pro-birth, and pro-adoption. Since those are also choices, I called myself pro-choice.
Now I am only pro-birth and pro-adoption. I am not pro-abortion. So I'm still technically pro-choice, just fewer choices than before. I am anti-elective-abortion to be most accurate.

reply from: BossMomma

So you went from one extreme to the other.
No, I don't think they thought they were helping you, they most likely didn't give a crap about you, they just wanted your money.
Why do you try to make heroes out of baby killers?
Why do you try to put things into peoples posts that aren't there? Why do you critisize her for not being hateful? It's people you that drive others away, why don't you stop being such a hater.

reply from: yoda

That's worth repeating.

reply from: yoda

If you saw a pervert abusing a child, would you try to make friends with the pervert, and say nice things to him?
Or would you FIRST try to stop him?
Stopping abortion by making it illegal is my FIRST priority, not making friends with baby killers. There will probably be time to "save their souls" after you save the baby's lives.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, I know...... you think you can over rule the dictionary, and probably the encyclopedia to boot. What about law books, can you over rule them too?
I'm sorry, did I give you the impression that I considered Carol's opinion to be equal to or superior to that of most dictionaries?
Well, if I did, it was my fault then. Because I don't. Neither you nor she has any authority to define or re-define words. Sorry, but them's the facts, maam.

reply from: yoda

Same ole stuff, Boss.... I thought you had turned over a "new leaf"?
I'm not in love with baby killing abortionists, nor do I respect them or call them "doctors". They are baby killers, that is WHAT THEY DO.
And anyone who insists on showing them respect isn't doing the babies they kill any favors, IMO.
Oh, btw..... I could give a crap whether I "drive others away", because I'm not a gestating baby..... did you think I was? Do my words make you hate unborn babies, Boss? Is that your problem?
Tell me how my words make you hate unborn babies, Boss, I'd really like to hear that!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you saw a pervert abusing a child, would you try to make friends with the pervert, and say nice things to him?
Or would you FIRST try to stop him?
Stopping abortion by making it illegal is my FIRST priority, not making friends with baby killers. There will probably be time to "save their souls" after you save the baby's lives.
Most women going into a PP are NOT going to abort, so you have plenty of time to be their friend.
And are you aware of the fact that cops and hostage negotiators TALK to the criminal to get them to stop? They don't call them a murderer and all that; NO, they appeal to the person. Abortion really is a hostage situation.

reply from: carolemarie

If you saw a pervert abusing a child, would you try to make friends with the pervert, and say nice things to him?
Or would you FIRST try to stop him?
Stopping abortion by making it illegal is my FIRST priority, not making friends with baby killers. There will probably be time to "save their souls" after you save the baby's lives.
Not the same thing.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm not saying these women are 100% innocent, but they are still victims of coercion and the person you should revile is not them, but the people who forced them to abort.

reply from: carolemarie

LRC,Having compassion for women doesn't mean we can't have respect(or it that word is to upsetting to hear) civility toward abortion providers. If we can accept that women are not evil monsters who obtain abortions then we can accept that abortion providers are not evil monsters. They believe that abortion helps their patient. I don't have to agree with them, but I can at least believe that they are like any other human being, capable of being wrong, without demonizing them.
Less name calling on both sides, more honest reasoning. Perhaps we can see some minds change. But being reasonable means putting personal feelings aside to talk about abortion.

reply from: carolemarie

You said it very well. Civility even if we think they are raving loons.

reply from: BossMomma

Same ole stuff, Boss.... I thought you had turned over a "new leaf"?
I'm not in love with baby killing abortionists, nor do I respect them or call them "doctors". They are baby killers, that is WHAT THEY DO.
And anyone who insists on showing them respect isn't doing the babies they kill any favors, IMO.
Oh, btw..... I could give a crap whether I "drive others away", because I'm not a gestating baby..... did you think I was? Do my words make you hate unborn babies, Boss? Is that your problem?
Tell me how my words make you hate unborn babies, Boss, I'd really like to hear that!
Your words don't make me hate the babies, they make me not want to be affiliated with you or anyone like you. Hate only begets more hate and the pro-life movement would go much further with a loving attitude.

reply from: nsanford

I'm doubting civility will ever be a characteristic that defines this forum.
It's the nature of the debate.

reply from: BossMomma

I already answered that question, yes.

reply from: carolemarie

It doesn't have to be. If the majority of the poster try and be at least civil the tone would change and the hate filled people would go somewhere else...

reply from: nsanford

I doubt this even more. I rather think they'd become louder.

reply from: yoda

Thank you. I've tried to make that point often.

reply from: yoda

Not as long as you're here.

reply from: nsanford

Yes, because I'm so rude. I'm light-years more civil to everyone than you are.
But nice call out. Really civil.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's my hope... then again, if we all agreed on a list of people to put on ignore, they'd pretty much be left to argue with themselves hehehe.

reply from: scopia1982

Have I displayed any "revulsion?" I'm just objecting to the complete denial of responsibility... According to her story, she actually was "forced," and if this is so, she should certainly have sought protection from any further assaults by this madman. If she did not, she doesn't have a leg to stand on IMHO.
Fear and shame can do strange things to a person CP. I was afraid and ashamed for not putting up more of a fight. I just froze like a "coward "and went with him like a sheep to slaughter. And when I tried to get away, I should have been able to fight them off if I really didnt want to be there. So you are right it was my fault, that I let him overpower me, despite the fact that he had threatened to shoot me, and he was alot bigger than me and he was physically stronger than me. Note the sarcasm.
In another light, that was the end of our"relationship" after than happened. I take responisbilty for having unprotected sex and getting pregnant. I would have expected this attitude from a proabort, but not from someone who is against abortion. I will take responsibilty for not getting up the courage to go and talk to my mom, even though at the time I felt at the time I could not. But I will not accept blame for the crime that was committed against me. Would you say this to a rape victim CP? I mean most raped go unreported because the victim is afraid or ashamed. And what happened to me as far as I am concearned is equal, if not more henious than a rape. After all some rape victims freeze in fear and go along with it, even though its not what they want. Some try to fight it off and in the end are overpowered, after all it is a known fact that men are physically stronger than women.
I have not laid eyes on this guy in 7 years. He moved to another state after his probation was up from his conviction of "contributing to the deliquency of a minor", which originally was a statutory rape charge for having sex with a 13 yr old girl. When I turned up pregnant at 17 , when this all going on, he had to get rid of any evidence of showing that he had sex with minors. That was his and his moms reasoning for arranging to "take care " of the problem. His mom is still in the area and I have saw her 3 or 4 times since then, but she knows not to come near me. Our last encounter before he left was not too pleasant... lets just say he is now more afraid of me than I am of him. I did not tell anyone what happened to me until 2004, when I finally broke down and told my husband and then I told my mom. I guess I just could not be silent no more.

reply from: scopia1982

Im glad that is all you have to say, because never in my life have I heard such an asinine response to my story from someone who claims to be prolife. Of course I know from the movements POV I am the secondary victim. Now you ask me to own up to my responsibilty I was 17 years old , I find myself pregnant in a region and a family(devout protestants BTW) that has no sympathy for unmarried pregnant teenagers. Being the lone Catholic in this branch of the family made life hard enough. I was raised by my aunt and uncle until my aunt got sick with cancer when I was 13, she died when I was 15. It was they who brought me up in the Church. Down here we are not taught about our rights under the law, we only taught to OBEY the law without question "or else". I was in shock, confused , afraid , and when the one person I thought I could trust comes after me with a concealed gun, tells me move or he will shoot me what am I supposed to do?You say I need to take responisbilty fine Maea Culpa. Maea Culpa for being too young, too undereducate and naive to not understand the degree of corruption in this branch of the "medical-industrial complex." and that "choice" was simply a euphameism for "have an abortion" and that I would be able to appeal to the practioners to help me escape, instead of ushering me out the back door into the arms of police officers who should have been called and instead was held down until the nitris oxide took effect. Maea Maxima Culpa for thinking that I could tell my story here among those who share my views on this topic, perhaps if that had not happened to me I would not be here on this board right now. Once again I was mistaken, this is yet another case of someone in the movement shooting the whole thing in the foot. This is why the dialogue needs to change. We are not going to win allies. If we call ourselves prolife, especially if we call ourselves prolife because we believe in the teachings of Jesus. We need to understand that people are going to come here having had an abortion and have learned the error of their ways, they may even have worked in the industry and have seen the light, why can we not understand that if we accept some of the teachings, we must accept them all. Including the doctrine of forgiveness which begins with judge not lest ye be judged. We have posters on here that call women who may have a promiscous past whores, even though they no longer are in that lifestyle. Women who regret their abortions are called names. People who dont fit into a persons narrow box of what a"true chrisitan "are condemned. There is so much more that I dont have time to mention. The point is the proabortion movement is more united and less divided than us.I think the prolife movment spends more time fighting and attacking each other over things, that we loose prespective of what is at stake and the issue at hand. It has got to stop or we are never going to succeed in abolishing abortion. As Lincoln said :"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

reply from: yoda

Well that's nice, but it has nothing to do with being prolife. Being prolife means we oppose the legality of elective abortion, period.
Telling the plain, simple truth is not unhelpful or mean. It is honest and the right thing to do. It's like "tough love" for your kids.
Do you respect the physicians who execute convicted criminals? Well, I could respect them a lot more than the ones who kill innocent babies.
What does "reaching out" mean in this context? If you're talking about the radical proaborts, you don't have to reach out to them, they're right here in your face everyday.

reply from: yoda

That's beside the point. They DO kill innocent people for a living, just like any hired killer. Do you respect hired killers in general?
And do you think it's WRONG to call a hired killer what he is, a HIRED KILLER?

reply from: yoda

He called the Pharisees and Sadducees some pretty bad names, didn't he?
What is wrong with being brutally honest?

reply from: yoda

Exactly. Shying away from such terms as "baby killer" actually works in favor of their position. By refraining from telling the brutal truth, we are actually helping them keep their deeds secret.
Excellent point.

reply from: yoda

You've got that right. After all, the did go through medical school.
One abortionist recently described the "feeling of electricity" in the instrument he uses to kill babies, and said he fully realizes that he is killing a living human being. But he still does, of course.
Stand up for right, even if it hurts someone feelings? My, what a "radical" idea...... gee, I hope it catches on!

reply from: yoda

Yep, it does. At least you're honest about it.

reply from: yoda

They are responsible, but they don't do it for a living. Big difference.

reply from: yoda

Sure. Hostage takers know they are breaking the law, murderers know they are murdering, so there's no need to tell them that. People having abortions, and people giving them, CLAIM they don't know they are killing innocent babies, little human beings. We NEED to confront them with that TRUTH.

reply from: yoda

Do you drive a DODGE, by any chance? You know there is a parallel in my question, but you just dodge it...... because you have no answer?

reply from: yoda

"Baby killer" is NOT A NAME........ it is a JOB DESCRIPTION!!!!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Sure. Hostage takers know they are breaking the law, murderers know they are murdering, so there's no need to tell them that. People having abortions, and people giving them, CLAIM they don't know they are killing innocent babies, little human beings. We NEED to confront them with that TRUTH.
They actually think the unborn is not a baby; it's not that they are lying, it's that they literally don't consider the unborn to be a baby, so they don't consider abortion wrong. They're not claiming, they are stating their true beliefs.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

He called the Pharisees and Sadducees some pretty bad names, didn't he?
What is wrong with being brutally honest?
He did? What's wrong with being brutally honest is that in 99.9% of cases, it doesn't WORK. It just pisses people off.

reply from: yoda

No, they are vocalizing their denials, that's all.
And they can be shaken out of their denials by being confronted with the truth. As an activists, and not just a poster on the internet, I have seen that happen in real time, in real life, many times.

reply from: yoda

I disagree. Just as with "tough love", being honest with people who are making, or about to make terrible decisions is the best thing you can do for them. A moment or two of embarrassment can save them a lifetime of regret, and save the life of an innocent human being. Small price for such a big reward, IMO.

reply from: 4given

Sure CM. But we aren't you. The pro-life community is quite diverse, as you have realized. Thanks for the greeting card though. It makes the mushy middle happy to not commit to any of their initial convictions I think. It is also great for those that call themselves "pro-life" but don't want to face up to the reality or judgment ahead because they abort.. Whatever works. I agree with some, but this is your idea of pro-life. Mine means that one will not kill their child for any reason, nor support another's actions, should they decide to abort. Again, different ideas.. different people. "It would mean respecting if not the abortion providers job, at least respecting them as a person and a medical professional" Please! That is disgusting! I am not at that spiritual level yet Carole. They deserve no respect. They are vile, heinously disgusting human beings. It is God who loves them. I despise them. Hey, He is still working on me though.. So you keep on praying for them. Maybe you should say a prayer for the rest of us as well.

reply from: yoda

Right. And that's why we have dictionaries, to establish the usual, general meaning of words and terms rather than someone's individual definition. If we didn't have dictionaries, no one could be sure what someone else was talking about. Maybe that's why some people hate dictionaries?
Yeah, pretty much so.

reply from: CharlesD

Well, you have to know your audience. Some people respond better to a gentle approach, while some are so hardened they need the harder approach. The trick is understanding your audience and figuring out which approach to use. Jesus didn't deal with everyone the same.

reply from: 4given

Okay. I guess I don't consider the "audience". Perhaps you mean the situation? Every person differs, as do their situation and experience. Are you familiar with the clinics? It is slightly, sometimes extremely different than the typical poster on any internet board. I agree with your ideas that every person needs to be dealt with differently. How often have you talked to pre or post abortive women and/or the men that encourage or despise the idea of their child being killed? I don't prefer an audience. I am just curious as to how one could reach the "gentle" or the "hardened" as they walk from their vehicle to their clinic appointment. (outside of prayer and reluctance on the part of the responsible) Your ideas and experiences are valuable to me. Kindly share!

reply from: CharlesD

Do I detect some sarcasm? Well, I've spent a fair amount of time outside clinics, with varying degrees of success, but now that I run a trucking company and spend a fair amount of time on the road, I find myself in truck stops debating people on internet forums. It's quite a bit different. What I was saying is that each situation calls for a unique approach and different people respond differently to different approaches. I have seen women change their minds moments before an abortion and I have seen others change their views on this issue through varying means of persuasion. I've also seen people so hardened that it doesn't seem to matter what method you use. There is a lot of work to do and people are needed in every area. We need people on the front lines at the clinics saving as many babies as they can, people praying, people acting politically, and people just speaking out for the unborn in their everyday lives. It's all important work.

reply from: yoda

Well, the first trick is to identify your audience, and the proaborts on this forum are not my audience. I only debate them here to sharpen my skills in this debate, so that when the opportunity comes up in the "real world" I will be ready. That way I can better reach my real audience, those whose minds are actually open.

reply from: yoda

That's the 64 million dollar question. You never know anything about them as they do the "death walk" into the front door. You never know which type of approach will work best, because you don't know anything about them.
So, you just have to decide which approach you're most comfortable with, and stick to that. Hopefully, there will be other protesters there also, using their own favorite approach, and one of you will have the "right" approach.

reply from: CharlesD

That's pretty much my experience as well. The people I meet in the real world seem more open to discussion. The folks on here, with a couple possible exceptions, seem to be the more radical abortion for any reason crowd. In the real world you have all sorts of variations of opinion that you come across, but most people I talk to believe in at least some sort of restriction on abortion. I don't think the "abortion is my precious right to choose and you can't restrict it in any way" crowd is in the majority.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No, they are vocalizing their denials, that's all.
But they're not all in denial. They really truly believe the unborn does not deserve life because of what it is. Heck, some of them don't even believe it is alive!
You mean they can realise the truth by being shown it. They are not in denial; these are their true beliefs and they have what they consider to be proof to back it up. Going after them like they are in denial may be one of the reasons you're so ineffective...
By screaming at these women that they are baby killers, sluts, and they deserve to go to jail for murder? Really? I can't see that EVER working. In fact, I see that getting you a punch to the crotch.

reply from: carolemarie

I have found in general, the best approach is to be kind....it isn't like I don't go to abortion clinics, I spent about 13 years sidewalk counseling and have seen hundreds of babies saved.I Not by doing anything more than caring about them and offering help....
Why should anyone believe that you care about them if you are not willing to talk civilly to them? And some (most) will abort anyways, but you still try to reach them on the way out, and really all you can do then is love them and give them the tools to find healing.
From the perspective of someone walking in to the clinic, it is scary, your guard is up and you expect meanness, so really kindness gives you a chance to speak into their lives. You only have 2 mins tops....so what you say and how you say it is really important...
If all you care about is the baby, then you are rather worthless at the abortion clinic. I guess you can go hold a sign or something...
And 4given, abortion providers are human beings that God loved enought to send His son to die for. Who are we to hate them? You can hate what they do, but not the person who does it. That is why rhetoric is so bad. It makes human beings into sterotypes so we don't have to love them and see that the same darkness in them is in us too. The are deceived and deluded and God weeps for them and we should to. The fact that we don't, says more about the conditions of our hearts than theirs. We are called to love people. We can't hate in God's name. I don't know if that makes sense to you....like everyone else, it hasn't been easy to try and care as much for the provider as the baby but it is what God requires.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lovely post, Carol :3

reply from: 4given

No. I wasn't being sarcastic. I apologize for how I was perceived. Frustration. I did not mean any disrespect. I am actually thankful to those that have been to the clinics, as well as those active in other ways, politics etc. It is all important and necessary. Your clinic ideas are welcome and appreciated. I meant that sincerely, as well as any other thoughts you have. I am not here to chat. I came here to learn from others how to better advance the pro-life mission. Thank you for being here in your moments of rest.

reply from: 4given

He's still workin on me.. We don't all have the same calling Carole. I respect what you are saying and what you have done. I am not there yet. How I would love to be emotionally, mentally and spiritually ready to engage the women that enter in. So in the 2 minutes Carole, what do you say?

reply from: yoda

You apparently think that women are extremely stupid. I don't, I think they are in denial of what they know to be the truth.
How in blazes would you know? How much time have YOU spent trying to stop abortions? What is YOUR success rate?
Apparently, you don't read any better than you think. NO ONE said anything about "screaming", you must be thinking about vexing.


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