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Abortion and The Paranormal PART II

Pro-Choicers, Please stay out of this Thread.

by: Allizdog2000

If any of you remember, I made a post on Life Dynamics forum about Abortion and The Paranormal, the possiablity of Abortion Clinics being "Haunted", "Infested with Demonic activity"

I e-mailed it to some of the Nation's and worlds leading Paranormal Researchers and Investigators, I got one response from a well know author (That shall remain nameless for now, judging from his response he is Pro-Choice.), basically saying to come back with evidence and he will look into it.

I made a posts in http://www.abovetopsecret.com/ and http://www.tapsforums.com/ forum and They were both removed. The Above Top Secret removed my Post, and didn't give a reason, because the Moderator is Pro-Abortion, didn't care about my complaint and basically told me go ahead and complain to whomever you want, you're post will not be in our forum.

TAPS basically said it was too sensitive of a subject.

The Paranormal community wants to stay out of the Cultural War. They have hard enough time trying to be taken seriously, they don't want this heaped on them or another embrassments like Amityville, "That's Incredable" TV show, Shirley MacLAME, Slyvia Browne, and John Edwards. (Not to mention the nutjobs from the UFO and Conspiracy Theorists side of Paranormal Research/Investigation)

I have been thinking about starting my own group and soliciting help from Life Dynamics or other Pro-Life groups.

What I am looking for a building that use to be an Abortion Clinic and doing research there. I would have more stringent protocols for the evidence collected. Such as "Orbs" would not be acceptable, nor crappy EVPs. In cases where "I think I heard something" would not count. Hard undeniable Evidence.

Pro-Lifers would be too quick call some dust kicked up in the air a "Ghost" and say that's real! Pro-Choicers might want to supress evidence. such as an EVP of a crying baby or a Pig or Wolf sounds.

What is Hard Evidence: Photos of apparitions (with undeniable form and shape), Clear EVPs of human, Animal* or Inhuman voices or sounds, (*Pig and Wolf sounds are tailtale signs of Demonic presence), Insane non-human Laughing.

what is weak and unacceptable evidence: Orbs, "Vortexs", unclear EVPs, blurred or "cobweb" effect, the "smoke" effect. (While this is acceptable to nearly all Investigators. It will not be for this project)

If no or weak evidence was collected after three or four nights at three to four closed Abortion Clinics, then I'll dismiss this Theory. If strong hard solid evidence is collected, then I will share it with anyone willing to examine it. But all evidence, not matter how weak, will be sent to various Paranormal Researchers for review.



reply from: ChristianLott

Like abortion isn't paranormal enough, we need evidence?

What kind of credibility are you looking for.

Yes I know, it's boring talking to the pro aborts everyday about philosophy and science and all they want to do is tell you their opinion.

Don't you think this would do more to ruin the reputation of RTL instead?

Anyway, if you're that interested in proving babies WERE murdered there, go ahead. I hear the screaming babies day and night as I drive down Causeway. Come over to my house, they follow me around.

reply from: Allizdog2000

The correct term is abnormal, not paranormal.

Namely photographs of "ghosts" and Demons and EVPs (Recordings). Both of Human and Demonic.

RTL "Right-to-Life"? This is just another direction to go in. This is the direction I would like to take it. I already see the fall out from this. Good solid evidence, that is acceptable by the Paranormal community, will cause a HUGE division in the Paranormal community, that is why none of the paranormal investigators are willing to touch it. The Pro-Choice paranormal investigators are going to do their best to blame it on something else, such as "It was built on a ancient..." etc.. The Pro-Abortionists will dismiss it. The Pro-Lifers, that is very hard to say if they will generally except it or not. The Pro-Life paranormal investigators, will stop investigating Cemetaries and start in on closed Abortion Mills.

A woman at a well known Paranormal Investigation group, said it's a good idea, but she couldn't do it, out of fear of what she'd encounter at one of these places.

I am going to form my own group in the next 24 monthes, I've tried to form one before, but couldn't find the right people. Right people as in not afraid of what goes bump in the night.

No need to prove babies were murdered there, we already know that. The photos of dismembered children in a dumpster are enough evidence. I am looking for paranormal evidence. How do they follow you around? You hear screaming?

Life Dynamics lists like 900 abortion clinics, and says 200 have closed. I am interested in those two hundred that have already closed to do this research.

While people protest the clinics and do street side counseling, I am not going to do that, I am more interesting in this unexplored aspect of this issue.

I have heard of TWO paranormal incidents in active abortion clinics. One is on the Roenomore website.

The other is a Ex-Pro-Choicer/PPFA voulenteer that heard tiny feet walking accross the floor and a "demonic laughter" one even as their were closing, which the laughing didn't have an orgin.

I am SURE there are more. As a promise to the Pro-Choicers, I will not "fish for evidence", if there is nothing there, then there is nothing there and I will report it as "Not haunted, no evidence found"

When I do find evidence. I will probably post my finding on this board first. Then various Paranormal Websites.

reply from: ChristianLott

OK. I hope it works out for you.

I suppose it will be more constructive than what's currently going on here.

Good luck.

BTW, my babies don't haunt me like you're talking about. I just think about them all the time. For a long time I couldn't sleep and cried a lot with no tears. Just shock and horror.

I can't imagine a woman who regrets her abortion. It's changed my life completely and I won't say bad because if ignorance is bliss - it's also stupid and in this case - helping protect evil.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Thank you. It will be more constructive than what is going on on this forum and other forums.

Other idea I had, is looking for former abortion clinic employees, such as secretaries, building engineers/managers, janitors, repair people, security guards etc, that have experianced anything "paranormal". People in those positions are most likely to have experianced something.

Those people because they are most likely to be alone while performing their duties.

The other reason for these people is because statistically Janitors, Police/Security, Repair/maintenance personnel have the most experiances.



reply from: Tam

Al, I saw this and thought of you.

It's the story of a young mother who chooses life based on a paranormal experience--told by the child whose life was saved that day, her son, Nick Cannon.

http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/lopez200506290804.asp

http://www.ncannon.com/

http://www.nickcannonmusic.com/index_main.html

Well, I definitely got choked up watching it.

reply from: yoda

Apparently Mr. Cannon has taken some heat from the proaborts over his video. He's recently been quoted as saying (paraphrasing) "I didn't do this video to promote the Prolife cause, I did it for myself."

reply from: Tam

I believe him. I don't think he did it to promote any particular cause. But he is a child who came so close to being aborted that his mom was on the table in the little gown--and changed her mind. He of all people understands that when a child is aborted, a LIFE IS LOST--a life of VALUE, an irreplaceable life, HIS LIFE. And because he knows that HE deserves a life, by extension he hopes that all moms will choose life for their children.

I can relate. Not that I was unplanned or unwanted--quite the contrary--but in that it is precisely because I value my own life that I can be nothing but prolife. Because I know that there was never a time, from the first moment of my existence until the last, that my mother (much as I love her) had the right to kill me. And that is the only reason I need to be prolife.

I'm going to get one of those CAN I LIVE shirts, I think. I like those. I can wear it while sidewalk counseling. Maybe some desperate mom will see the shirt, remember the video, and choose life for her unborn child.

reply from: yoda

Yep. He can't take the song back, it's out there, and it's powerful.

reply from: Tam

That message board is full of people writing to say stuff about how the video made them change their minds and choose life for their babies, and people saying they regret their abortions so much, and people just saying how great the message and the song are. It's really beautiful to read.

P.S. He even has started a foundation to help young moms in need. I think everybody really needs to check this out. It is extremely moving to read the message board. The address again is http://www.ncannon.com

reply from: galen

A,

I have a friend who is really into EVP.

You should be able to walk into a building during non peak hours of buisness and do some quick non guided recordings yourself. Any paramonrmal website can show you how... the trick is to filter out " normal" noise... The other trick for you would be tofigure out a reason for being there, other than the EVP...because you are correct in the sensitivity of the issue.
She also states that where she lives in Florida, the local private practioner who had a AB clinic, moved out of the area under protest, and the office he used has been an law office, and an architech's studio.
She feel's that if one has had uses other than for AB clinics... its likely you can find one near you with a similar history of reuse.

Good luck

reply from: Navynate

I just ordered my Can I live T-shirt. I also read some of the posts on his message board, they really touch your heart to read the posts of those who had an abortion and now regret it.

I know why he's getting alot of heat from prochoice groups, he's telling the truth and they don't want the truth to be told by someone who was almost aborted because of their support for choice. How can they tell him that it would be better if he had been aborted? If someone told my that, I would totally deck them right then and there. I'm not the kind of person to be violent, but if someone said that it would be better if my mom had aborted me, then I would hit them. Prochoice groups say, it's a choice, Nick Cannon says, it was MY LIFE!!! He's living (and thankfully not dying)proof that what prochoice groups say is a total lie, it's not a choice, it's a life at stake here. I can't wait to get my t-shirt so I can wear it around campus and have students who are prochoice see it and read what it says. Some people are just such idiots or totally ignorant of the truth. I should get the vid and the CD as well of his song.

Nate,

reply from: yoda

Yes, and just like the very lucky folks who survived abortion attempts on them, he is a major embarassment to the proaborts.

They don't like for abortion to have a human face (much less a voice), it's very uncomfortable for them.

reply from: Tam

Me too. And you can get the song off iTunes for 99 cents, which I also did. Nick Cannon made a new fan today! Or, more likely, many new fans. You can see from the message board at his site how many people are noticing him all of a sudden because of this moving song.

reply from: Allizdog2000

How did this thread get so off track of talking about hauntings to some singers? Recenting in a Paranormal Forum, that allowed me to re-post my deleted "Abortion and The Paranormal", that got ALOT of hate and discontent from Paranormal Investigators that are Pro-Choice. I did get a few PM's from those on the Pro-Life side that completely agreed with this theory.

Here it is, I ask a question some crazy question about UFOs and Haunting Phenomena being related and that's a friendly and lively debate. And That is a completely Insane question I wouldn't dare ask a real scientist or researcher. I make a point that some places become haunted for various reasons, and Abortion clinics do indeed fit the bill on factors that contribute to paranormal phenomena, and they call that crazy. So I left that forum and will never return.

reply from: Alexandra

I sometimes post on Above Top Secret, under the name Amethyst.

I would NOT doubt that there is demonic activity in those clinics. Demons do influence people.

But the devil doesn't make anyone do anything...he merely entices people, tries to get at your weakness. In this case, it would be love of money.

reply from: Tam

Because the video we're raving about is based on a woman's choice for life following a paranormal experience. Sorry if it went off track. Here is the paragraph I first read about it, in the Boston Globe, that made me think of you and this thread--before I knew anything about the video or song.

P.S. I'm going to start a new thread about that video, anyway. So if you're reading this post and want to comment on the video, go to the new thread. Which I will come back here and link.

The only other comment I'd make about it here is--isn't it great to see a paranormal experience getting so much press?

P.S. Here is a link to the "Can I Live" thread, so don't post any more about it here, post it there!

http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=712

reply from: scopia1982

I have to agree that abortion clinic are haunted by the souls of those dead children and demonic spirits. It only makes sense in those slaughter houses where there is nothing but killling. When a person dies a tragic violent death whether it be an unborn child or a soldier on the battlefeild it is very likely they will stay where they are at. Also in a place where blood is spilled on the ground, especially large amounts (lets face it abortion clinics dont go out of there way to keep it from touching the ground )can open the doorway between Hell and Earth inviting Satans minions to cross over, especially into a place where evil is taken place and that is all that happens in abortion clinics, so it is the perfect place for demons to set housekeeping on this planet. I have what is called a sixth sense and have in another post mentioned the feeling I get when I pass the abortion clinic in my town, but I also on occassion hear the cries of babies, which tells me that these babies were slaughtered past the point of viabilty in pregnancy.

reply from: scopia1982

If you dismiss what you call weak evidence ( I can understand the orbs) than that will throw out any viable prrof. For a spirit to manifest itself takes alot of energy and many of them absolutly refuse to do it EVPs, whether clear or garbeled EVPS are valid. EVPS IMO are the most reliable source of proofing a ghost prescence or that of a demon. I would suggest that when you do this you consult a medium who knows absolutly nothing about why you want them there. If they are legit they can give you somethinng of what you are looking for.

reply from: zef

I just discovered this forum and thread. I am a woman who had 3 abortions, came to regret them years later, and has become pro-life. For the last 2 years I have been been speaking at pro-life gatherings and fund-raisers, and singing the songs that I wrote in honor of the children that I aborted. Despite all the work, I still find myself depressed occassionally and obsessed with thoughts about my abortions.

I do not believe that one ever totally heals from an abortion. I find myself, these days, obsessed with the possibility of being contacted by my 3 dead babies. This may sound nuts, but, there have been times that I prayed for them to return to my womb for a visit and sometimes I feel light little kicks.

The site where I memorialize them is a baby grave from the 1800's that has a life sized figure of an infant lying on its back. The fingers and toes have worn away as have some of the facial features. I have had very vivid dreams about this baby statue moving and crying--in the dreams he still looks like a statue but when you touch him he feels real and grabs your finger. One day I took holy water to this grave and baptized the statue 3 times in honor of each of my 3 children. I have also thought about conducting EVP at this site.

Will be very interested to see what you come up with. Please keep us posted.

reply from: ScreamingIke

lol.
paranormal.
lol.

reply from: ScreamingIke

lol.
paranormal.
lol.

reply from: Tam

Prochoicers, please respect the thread and stay out of it as requested by the thread author. If you want to start your own thread to make such astute and fascinating comments as "lol," you are free to do so.

reply from: Tam

Kim thanks for sharing your story and welcome to the forum. (Sorry you happened to join at a time of a loser infestation!) Tam

reply from: ScreamingIke

you're kidding me. i'm not making a pro-choice or pro-life satement. i'm laughing at anyone who buys into this garbage.

reply from: Tam

You are a pro-choicer. Therefore you were politely asked to stay OUT of this thread. To come INTO this thread in the first place was rude. To do so in order to INSULT the thread and its author is moreso. To double-post your rude remarks is still more rude--and the icing on the cake of rudeness is that you are arguing about it and SIMULTANEOUSLY insulting the thread and its author AGAIN.

You are not welcome in this thread. If you want to make a thread about how "anyone who buys into this garbage" is a fool--make your OWN thread. Leave Allizdog's thread ALONE. DON'T RESPOND TO THIS, JUST SHUT UP.

reply from: ScreamingIke

how is it that you can discriminate against me for beliefs that have no affect on the debated subject matter? what if i said "i'm pro-life, and i still believe it's crap"?

reply from: yoda

Then we would all reply "BS", Ike.

reply from: zef

I guess it does sound nutty. My own guilt cries out for a paranormal connection to the 3 babies I aborted. I almost went to a psychic medium in my quest to connect with them. Sometimes I think I feel their presence---but maybe it's my imagination.

Screaming Ike, you're ok by me. In fact, I was you for a long time.

reply from: tabithamarcotte

Zef, I can relate to how you feel. Well, at least my mom can. Ever since a certain experience, she's wanted to go to a psychic medium or something.

She had a miscarriage with my brother, James. Fourteen years later (a couple months ago), she woke up from a deep sleep hearing someone calling out "mom". My sister and I were at someone else's house spending the night, so she knew it couldn't be one of us. After she woke up, she heard the voice say things like "notice me!" and things like that. Ever since then, she has always had the feeling that he was with her.

Strange, huh?

Anyway, I don't doubt for a minute that there are the leftover screams of dead babies, and demonic entities in abortion mills. Abortion mills are so drenched and concentrated in evil, I thinkt that a demon would be happy to be there.

reply from: zef

Thank you Tab, I appreciated that.

reply from: mom5

zef - honey, you are not crazy. I have suffered from miscarriages and have felt the presence of my children. But I have a feeling that these innocent babies are not hanging around the evils of the abortion clinic...they are around their mommies if anywhere.

Thinking of you zef - praying you have the strength to be a witness of you feelings!

reply from: ScreamingIke

"felt the presence of your children"? give me a break. can you quantify that?

reply from: Allizdog2000

Interesting, this thread was brought out of the depths and back again.

Also, I would ask that Idiots with nothing remotely interesting or intelligent to say, please refrain for posting here.

reply from: ScreamingIke

i believe that they are a person. now prove that you communicate with their spirits. communication with spirits is necromancy and forbidden by the bible.

reply from: tabithamarcotte

I wouldn't call that "communicating with spirits", by how you're saying it. Just because someone can feel the prescence of a dead person's spirit doesn't mean that they are TRYING to communicate to them. My mum felt James's spirit without her intending to do it. I don't know how that can be evil.

As for the "proof", there isn'y any "proof" except for what they saw and heard. Unless you want them to bring in a team of experts in the paranormal, you're going to have to live with what they say. I don't think that will be too difficult.

reply from: zef

IKE QUOTE:"felt the presence of your children"? give me a break. can you quantify that?

How in the world can I quantify that? Whether it's really their presence or it's my own guilt creating these imaginings I can't truly say. I'm just very sorry I did what I did. Perhaps God sends them down for a visit to inspire me in my pro-life work and perhaps not.

reply from: zef

CONCERNED MOM QUOTE:No offense, but if you can't convince someone that an unborn child is a person (human individual) with all the solid scientific evidence that supports that contention, what chance do you have of convincing them that the spirits of the aborted unborn are still around? And, if they have no compassion for unborn children while they're alive, what makes you think they would give a hoot even if you proved beyond all doubt that their spirits were unable to "rest in peace?"

While I speak to all kinds of groups, my pro-life work is more centered on other post-abortive women whether to help them in their suffering or to help them to see the humanity of the children that they aborted if they are still in denial. I would hope that this kind of research and investigation would help them.

reply from: domsmom

There is absolutely no way you could ever comprehend what they are talking about unless you are a parent. So in your case there's no point in you trying.

reply from: yoda

Ike has been "re-banned".

reply from: zef

Question: Is Ike pro-life? I couldn't quite figure the guy out.

reply from: yoda

NOT in ten million years, zef.

reply from: zef

OK---guess it was this comment by Ike that had me confused:

"i believe that they are a person. now prove that you communicate with their spirits. communication with spirits is necromancy and forbidden by the bible."

So I take it he's not a pro-life fundamentalist, rather a pro-abort mocker of Christianity. Gee, how unusual.

reply from: zef

Interesting---you don't look like a dude in your picture.

reply from: ScreamingIke

lol. pwned again, noob. 5 5555

reply from: zef

Why are you here, Ike?

reply from: MoaningMike

Heya Ike,

This is a bit late, but I just now joined up...but I don't have to explain myself to you. Anyway, exactly WHERE in the bible does it say that communicating with spirits is a sin?

reply from: ScreamingIke

why are you here, zef?
mike... i'll get back to ya.

reply from: zef

I am here because I believe I have felt the presence of the three children that I aborted. I performed a search on abortion and the paranormal and I found this site. Now please answer my question. Why are you here, Ike?

reply from: zef

Yes, I understand---it's fun for you to shock people and piss them off.

reply from: tabithamarcotte

Oh, believe me, it's his aspiration in life.

reply from: ScreamingIke

tabitha, do you know what i do in my spare time? what kind of music i listen to? what instruments i play? favorite movies? come on, you know nothing about me except that i say things that people take offense to.

reply from: ScreamingIke

that's ambiguous. what does it refer to, domsmom?

reply from: MoaningMike

So tell me you guys, do any of you pro-lifers believe in the death penalty? Or even welcome it?

reply from: tabithamarcotte

I do not like the death penalty at all. However, to kill a convicted murderer who has transmitted evil and mayhem into society is much more justifiable than killing an innocent human being who has done nothing wrong (besides caused the woman discomfort, apparently).

reply from: zef

No. I became Catholic 3 years ago and the Catechism is basically against capital punishment except in extreme cases where others' lives may be endangered.

Are Ike and Mike the same person?

reply from: AshMarie88

I didn't know you had time for all of that, especially since you're always here.

reply from: zef

Question for Ike and Mike if they are in fact, 2 different people.

Do you have any aborted children? If so how many?

reply from: zef

MIKE QUOTE:"For every child you don't abort, I'm going to abort 3. Have a nice day."

And that, Mike and Ike, is how many children that I aborted.

I also took care of post-abortive women as a nurse.

On my really down days, I wish I had died on the table during the first abortion.

reply from: domsmom

bestest buddies probably.

reply from: domsmom

It means that you say things people take offense to on purpose; fully intending and expecting that they'll take offense.


dont know how the post got so misplaced......

reply from: zef

Here's a quote from Ike's site:

"I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some sh---- documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted."

Talk about shock value. Well, Ike, you don't shock me. I've heard and done it all.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Didn't this thread use to be about Abortion and the Paranormal? If you are going to Debate death penality, start a new thread. Pro-Choicers/Abortion supporters, Please stay out. I ask that you refrain from posting off-topic issues in this thread.

reply from: zef

Alright back to the topic. In my work with post-abortive women, I've encountered two women who claim to have heard their babies cry----this was well after the abortion.

reply from: galen

A-dog,

Did you ever find a place you could go do EVP?

Jessy

reply from: ScreamingIke

we ARE best buddies, in real life.

reply from: tabithamarcotte

I don't remember ever saying something that suggested that I knew what you did in your spare time...maybe my memory has been temporarily lost... If I made a comment saying that, please remind me.

reply from: ScreamingIke

seems to imply that you know me, when, in fact, you do not.

reply from: lovinglife

I can't understand how anyone can say, "Killing babies is Wrong" but, "Killing convicts is Good". Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I believe we are taught as children of God to love all and forgive all. How are we POSSIBLY forgiving anyone if we say, "Yeah, kill the B*******!!!" It doesn't make sense to me. I love all, I DO NOT believe in Hate and will not enforce it with such childish statements. There is NO reason AT ALL to kill.

reply from: ScreamingIke

a-dog asked that we not discuss capital punishment on his thread. noob.

reply from: lovinglife

Well a-dog can say whatever he wants, the same goes for me I can say whatever I want. Thanks though.

reply from: lovinglife

Well that is true Ike, thanks for the insight. Allow me to reprahse…within this paticualr forum I may talk about the death penalty if I wish to. There is no Law that says I cannot. So if I wish to speak about the death penalty I will. No one has to reply or like it, but I am allowed to post.

reply from: RePit

there has been stuff here about death penalty and euthanasia, but it's 95% abortion.

reply from: lovinglife

Well then the author will have to take it up with the supreme court then. I don't think the author is angry with me though, is he Ike? Are you trying to get him angry with me?

reply from: MoaningMike

Amen. That was my whole point. And whether or not hypocrasy in this situation is wrong, the fact remains that it is immoral and unethical to wish/accept the killing of anyone for any reason.

As for you, Ike, don't worry about whether or not the one who started the thread said not to post stuff here. That's up to him to enforce, not you. And while we're on that, if that's the way you feel than you might as well find a new forum, because you are seemingly here to do things other than legitimatelly discuss abortion.

reply from: zef

Again I ask Ike and Mike---do either of you have any aborted children that you know of and if so how many?

reply from: zef

Assuming you are both heterosexual, that is.

reply from: Allizdog2000

Ok, This ISN'T about the Death Penality. If you had an Paranormal or Supernatural experiance directly related or even remotely related or theory, then post it here. This isn't about Capital Punishment or Trolling.

reply from: zef

I have stated my paranormal experience. I would like to know if there are souls in heaven who would've been Mike's or Ike's children.

reply from: zef

Allizdog,

The Buddhists have a belief that an aborted fetus can bring evil to its family. There is a ceremony called Mizuko I think, to appease the soul of the child. Just thought you might like to know about it since it sort of ties in with this.

Zef

reply from: MoaningMike

That's a negative Zef. And I am quite heterosexual. I'm quite young...barely old enough to drink legally. I don't plan to have children until the time is right, because it's not fair to conceive a child with the knowledge that it will not have a fair chance to enjoy life's ups and downs. When I feel the time is right to get married and have kids, I'll do it.

Not that anyone wants to know, or maybe some might, but I'm really undecided on this whole abortion issue. It's easy to say you're either pro-life or pro-choice, and that's that...one or the other. That never worked for me, the "one or the other" bullcrap. There's ALWAYS more than 2 sides to a story, and always an "in between". I don't think it's acceptable, fair, just, or moral to have an abortion, for whatever the reason. But then again, how am I to judge those who choose their own life paths? If someone wants to have an abortion, so be it. That's their choice. Not to start another argument here, but that's where the world has gone so awry these days. Nobody has any freedoms anymore.

Anyway, what about those who are raped? Is it fair for them not to have the choice of whether or not to bring a child conceived of evil and hatred into the world?

I have too much to say, so I'll continue this later.

reply from: zef

So as far as you know, Mike, you have no aborted children. Of course, if you have been sexually active at all, you may have some and not know it.

As to rape, why should that make any difference? If we believe that life begins at conception(as science teaches), we have no right to take that life. There are plenty of persons here with us now who were conceived in rape. It's not the ideal way to start, but life is life. 9 mos inconvenience vs. a lifetime of knowing you took the life of your child---I'll take the former. In my work with post-abortive women, I have encountered such a woman. Ten years after her rape and subsequent abortion, she married and had a child. She is tormented by the thought that this is not her first child, this, is in fact her second.

Of course, some women are better about burying the hurt and getting on with things. Some of us get downright callous about it. I was for almost 20 years till something triggered a most devastating case of post-abortion syndrome. I became suicidal. Now, as I look back on my life, I can see more clearly how profoundly I was affected by my abortions (though I denied it and screamed pro-choice)---and they were not positive influences.

One of the most horrible things that has run through my mind is when I look at my 2 children and wonder if the aborted ones might have been better children. Is that not the most awful thought? Only a woman who has had an abortion could think such a thought and I am riddled with guilt when it enters my mind.

My apologies, Allizdog, I digressed.

reply from: zef

Allizdog---I just started a thread entitled Aborted Ghosts at Above Top Secret Forums. Will be interested to see if I get deleted. So far I've only had one response from someone blasting me for killing my children.

reply from: AshMarie88

"That's a negative Zef. And I am quite heterosexual. I'm quite young...barely old enough to drink legally. I don't plan to have children until the time is right,"

Oh, we have something in common!

"because it's not fair to conceive a child with the knowledge that it will not have a fair chance to enjoy life's ups and downs."

Aborting it, taking away its ONLY life, is better? By aborting, you're taking away the only life it has, the only life that will have no chance whatsoever to even experience life's ups and downs."

"When I feel the time is right to get married and have kids, I'll do it."

We agree again.

"I don't think it's acceptable, fair, just, or moral to have an abortion, for whatever the reason. But then again, how am I to judge those who choose their own life paths? If someone wants to have an abortion, so be it. That's their choice. Not to start another argument here, but that's where the world has gone so awry these days. Nobody has any freedoms anymore."

It should not be their choice.

A child is a child, shouldn't be a choice to kill it.

"Anyway, what about those who are raped?"

Yea, rape is bad.

"Is it fair for them not to have the choice of whether or not to bring a child conceived of evil and hatred into the world?"

Whoa whoa... slow down... That child is not in any way evil. That child is just as innocent as a child conceived in a loving marriage.

Who are you to judge who lives and who dies? Why do you think killing children is an okay thing? Why do you think it should be a choice for people who want to kill them?

reply from: MoaningMike

As much as it pains me, I'll say this first. You are right there. However, that again brings me to the argument streaming away from this thread about all the people in the world that we citizens DO think we have the right and choice to kill. Criminals, terrorists, PEOPLE.

A child is a child...that's good, very good. But A PERSON IS A PERSON. A child is much more innocent, and possibly the most innocent of lifeforms, but that still doesn't make it any different to say that you should not be able to kill a child and SHOULD be able to kill ANYONE else for WHATEVER the reason. There is no justifying that.

That's pretty much what I said, I am NOT one to judge who lives and who dies. If it were up to me, nobody would die. However, it is NOT up to me; it is up to those whose children are in danger of abortion.

I definately do not think killing children is an Okay thing. I know that this next sentence cannot happen and won't matter in a real life situation, but if my wife and I someday had kids and she wanted to abort, I would do everything in my humanly power to make sure that this didn't happen. I would keep her locked up at home and deliver the baby myself. Anyone trying to come in would get a pile of rocksalt in the face.

Killing children is wrong, you're not getting any question about that from me. But I will not sit here and tell you that it is my decision whether or not to have that abortion. You know, maybe the mother is in danger of losing her life during the process of childbirth...not that I know anything whatsoever about that kind of thing (Ike, feel free to jump in here-you have some knowledge of that I believe). And perhaps it is better for that person to abort the child, because if she doesn't abort it out of pity but knows she still can't take care of it, she gives it up for adoption. Meanwhile, the adopted parents force it into slave labor, and feed it slugs every night for dinner, then beat the hell out of it every night/morning. Perhaps this is the way the woman thinks?

I don't know. I don't like to think of myself as either pro-choice or pro-life, but this argument makes me look pro-choice. Even I see it now. It's hard to explain the stuff that goes through my mind.

reply from: MoaningMike

One more thing. It really annoys me that all you guys seem to see is either black or white. I'm either a child hater or a child lover. There are certain circumstances which determine my method of thought, and I love children. I'm very good with the children in my extended family, mostly smaller cousins. If they would die it would sadden me very much.

But just because I think it's the decision of the parent(s) of the child in danger of being aborted to abort or not, doesn't mean I hate children and I think it's right to kill them. That is a very delinquint way to think, and it's very irrational and immature. Not that I blame or criticize any of you in particular, because everybody in the universe who has the same views as you guys thinks this way. So the above comments were just intended to acknowledge my thought process, and was directed towards not only those on this website, but those in general who think to extremes.

reply from: Allizdog2000

I'm sorry Moaning Mike, this thread should have been re-titled to "Moaning Mike's personal View on Abortion", Since we can't rename it "Moaning Mike's Personal View on Abortion", WHY DON'T WE STAY ON THE TOPIC??!?!? It's about Abortion and The Paranormal.

reply from: MoaningMike

My sincere apoligies. I shall do as you wish. I hope you have fun with your topic, because nobody has mentioned anything relevant about it since page 3....Anywho, again I'm sorry.

reply from: zef

"Weird things started to happen. My co-workers began hearing the sound of "little babies running down the hall." I went out one morning to cut some wild sunflowers for the recovery room, and I was certain I heard a little baby's laugh. I tore into the bush, scratching my arms, looking for the child, but found nothing but leaves."-------taken from Norma McCorvey's (the former Jane Roe) testimony of the years she spent working in an abortion clinic.

These strange happenings began at about the time she began to rethink her involvement with the abortion movement and her employment at the abortion clinic.

reply from: zef

"A woman reported telling her nine year old son about her abortion, which had taken place years before he was born. He said, 'I knew, Mom, that there was something wrong. I always have nightmares about knives and my mother killing me. I have an imaginary brother who wants to kill me. If you had not aborted the other, would you have aborted me?'" -----from Abortion Survivors by Dr. Philip Ney.

reply from: zef

There is a lot of activity on the thread I started at "Above Top Secret Forums". It is entitled "Aborted Ghosts." Anybody interested in this topic might want to check it out.

reply from: Tam

The way I see it, Society is hypocritical to say "it's wrong to kill, so if you kill, we'll punish you with death." I do, however, understand the reasoning of those who support the death penalty. Some see it as an "eye for an eye" kind of justice, some believe the threat of death is a deterrant, some believe death ensures the killer will kill no more, and some adopt a combination of one or more of these justifications. It could be argued that life imprisonment is sufficient to ensure that the person never kills again, but if you think about it, there are those who have no moral objection to killing, and once they have been convicted, there really is no deterrant from killing again. If he kills again, he gets another life sentence? Guards and fellow prisoners are at serious risk under those circumstances. After the first conviction, the killer has nothing to lose other than possibly any "privileges" he may have in prison.

I still oppose capital punishment, but I do understand the implications of banning it.

I agree with you, CP. I totally understand the reasons people support it, but those reasons are not compelling enough for me to support it. I oppose it on principle, just as I oppose abortion on principle.

reply from: Tam

As much as it pains me, I'll say this first. You are right there. However, that again brings me to the argument streaming away from this thread about all the people in the world that we citizens DO think we have the right and choice to kill. Criminals, terrorists, PEOPLE.

A child is a child...that's good, very good. But A PERSON IS A PERSON. A child is much more innocent, and possibly the most innocent of lifeforms, but that still doesn't make it any different to say that you should not be able to kill a child and SHOULD be able to kill ANYONE else for WHATEVER the reason. There is no justifying that.

I agree. There is no justifying killing someone else, whatever the reason.

I see it, too. You are pro-choice. I realize you are uncomfortable with the position--well, so was I, and I switched sides to one more in line with my personal philosophy.

reply from: Tam

First of all, I do understand where you're coming from. I have BEEN THERE. I totally know. I never thought of myself as supporting ABORTION; I just supported CHOICE, because I am a feminist and I support freedom. And everybody in the universe who has the same views as you guys thinks this way. (Oh, wait, was that too broad a generalization? Yeah, just a tad, don't you think?)

No one thinks you hate children. You simply believe the mother has the right to kill them. That means you are pro-choice. Even if you think she shouldn't kill them, you believe it is her RIGHT to do so. Pro-choice. Or, more accurately, pro-abortion. If that makes you uncomfortable, don't shoot the messenger--rethink your position!

Edited to add: dang! sorry, allizdog! The thread got so far off topic that I didn't even realize what thread I was in, or I wouldn't have replied to the last few things I did. I'll try to be more careful. I made it worse by replying to prochoicers, who are supposed to be staying out of this thread in the first place!!!

reply from: zef

Y'all really need to check out the thread I started at The Above Top Secret Forums. Some interesting things have come in. Of course, I have to be respectful of the pro-choice posters and maintain a somewhat neutral stance. I even received kudos from the moderators in an e-mail and I was given 250 points (whatever that means.)

reply from: dasjuggernaut

send us a link, please?

reply from: Tam

Here's a link to the forum in general: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/

reply from: Tam

You can use the points to "buy" stuff like a sig line and stuff. I just joined today but that seems to be how that works.

reply from: zef

I should warn folks that there are people who post there who are into some creepy, dark stuff.

reply from: zef

Black magic, spells, etc.

reply from: zef

Paranormal Story Archives
October 2002 – Page 4

Forgiven
by Corinne S.

I only recently discovered your site, which I must say is brilliant. It got me thinking about some weird, unexplained things in my house. When I was younger, I got pregnant. My parents decided it would be best to have an abortion, which my partner and I did not agree with. In the end, I was given an ultimatum: my parents or the baby, and being as close as I am to my parents, I went through with it. Afterwards, I tried to forget it as much as I could, but then weird things started to happen. My boyfriend and I were in the garden (no one else was home) and he turned around to me and said, "Your brother must be home. I just saw someone in his bedroom window." I went to check, but no one had returned. After that I kept hearing a little girl crying all the time. After a while I told my mum about it and she said she also heard it and thought it was me. After a while things calmed down. But the other day my mum told me she was sleeping and woke suddenly and saw a little girl standing by her bed. She woke up my dad who saw nothing. I like to think it's my little girl letting us know she forgives me.

reply from: zef

Goodleburg Cemetery is located in Wales, NY. It is small, located basically in the middle of nowhere. This cemetery is very old, and contains the remains of at least one Revolutionary War veteran. The spot is very beautiful, though many headstones are broken/vandalized. Tales abound of the 1800's era abortion doctor who lived across the road. he supposedly buried the aborted fetuses in the cemetery, and if the mother did not survive the procedure, he would toss her body into the cemetery's pond. Ghost stories include the apparitions of crawling babies, and the sounds of babies crying. Also mentioned is the ghost of the doctor hanging, after he took his own life from guilt.

reply from: zef

Hello? Anybody home?

reply from: zef

Well folks---started another thread at TAPS today also entitled "aborted ghosts." Will see what happens.

reply from: zef

OK--I'm a sucker for some of these psychic shows--especially John Edwards. On two occasions now I've seen him mentioning that the spirits of miscarried babies were present. Also, without out and out saying the word abortion---he alluded to an aborted spirit being present. The couple would not acknowledge it anymore than by saying that they had chosen not to have children.
Just thought this was interesting.


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