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Why are you pro life?

I know this doesn't apply to everyone here, but...

by: CharlesD

I thought it would be interesting to know why people are pro-life, besides the obvious answers. I'm not really looking for the basic answer of "because it's wrong to kill babies" but what it was that convinced you. It could be helpful to know what worked with others so we can work on our own approach in order to be more effective. There are many ways to persuade people and different methods might work differently with different people, just like different people might be better at employing certain methods above others.
I'll start. It happened early for me, but also in stages. I know that sounds weird, but here goes. I was a kid in '73 when Roe was passed. I heard my parents talking about it and they weren't happy, but I didn't really understand why and I certainly didn't know or care what abortion was. I was more concerned with important things like baseball and getting dirty in the back yard. Late that year we went to the county fair in our town and a pro life group had taken an old school bus and converted it into a rolling exhibit. These people worked fast, to have something like that touring around the fairs and what not within weeks of Roe being passed. You went in the front of the bus, filed through, and went out the back door, and all along there were photos of the aftermath of different kinds of abortions. There was other information as well, but to my impressionable young mind, the pictures stuck. I was quite shaken. May parents didn't go through the bus with me, but they didn't stop me from going. I was naturally curious at that age and wanted to see everything there was at the fair. I came out of there and my legs were weak. I asked my father why people did that to those babies and he said because they are selfish.
So I guess I've been pro life since my early childhood, but at that time it was a pretty simple conviction that what I had seen was wrong and people shouldn't be doing it. I never thought much about it growing up other than to be generally upset whenever I saw mention of it. It wasn't until I got into high school that I really began codifying my views and trying to figure out effective arguments against it. That was easy in high school because I went to a Catholic school where a lot of people shared my views, but for them it had something to do with being Catholic and just being raised that way. College was a different story. I was face to face for the first time with people who not only didn't agree with me but who disagreed rather vehemently. I got involved with a campus pro life group and we tried all sorts of things, and also for the first time I was rather shocked that the same kinds of photos that had disturbed me as a child and still haunted my mind were not effective against some people. At least they wouldn't admit it out loud. But I was a zealous college student and I just kept going at it from different angles, convinced that the truth was so obvious all I had to do was figure out the best way to present it.
College ended and I started doing volunteer stuff with Right to Life and Operation Rescue, the latter landing me in jail a couple times. Around that time I became a Christian, which just served to reinforce my views, but they didn't originally spring from my faith. That is why I think it's important to have arguments against abortion that don't come from a religious point of view. Religious arguments can work with people who may be Christians but still not pro life, but they don't work with people who don't acknowledge Christ. Someone who doesn't read the Bible and doesn't give a rat's behind about God isn't going to care that much what God has to say about the issue.
Basically, it was the pictures that got me at the outset, but it was the reasoned arguments of others when I got older, from a secular and religious viewpoint, that reinforced my views.

reply from: xnavy

i have been basically prolife about all my life, i became more vocal about it after my mother told me if she could have found an abortionist
i would not be here so i think about all the unwanted fetuses who don't get the chance i got, because the law protected me in 1960.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well everyone kind of knows my story but I'll tell it again for you. I became active as a pro-choicer back in college, about 2004 I'd say. I had just become sexually active so the subject was something very important to me. I was scared of pregnancy and quickly fell into the naieve assumptions of the pro-choice arguments. They "protect" women from the terrors of pregnancy and delivery. They "protect" women from the shame, from anyone having to know. That's what I wanted to hear at the time.
As I went through college I was very pro-choice. I had a few pregnancy scares and could only think about how to get to a clinic without my parents ever finding out. I had my own money so it wasn't a problem, but I was always too afraid to take a pregnancy test. Thankfully I never became pregnant but I faced a lot of stress worrying about it. I thought a pregnancy would ruin my life.
Last summer I had a life-changing event anyway: I broke up with my dead-beat fiancee. Afterwards in the Fall and early winter I slowly came back to Christianity without even trying. It was like now that my life was back in order I could get my spirituality back too. I'd been viciously agnostic/deist/buddhist and a whole host of other religions/nonreligions trying to find my spirituality. Christianity was like a familiar sweater; it felt so good.
As I neared the end of my senior year (just this May) I grew frustrated at some pro-choicers I often talked to online. They were positively vicious towards pro-lifers (just like some people on here are vicious towards pro-choicers) and I was growing sick of it as their blows began to sting me as well. I was changing from being totally pro-choice to only semi, and I was attacked for it. So I left.
I came here, and I was somewhere in the middle but sort of still pro-choice since I was still ok with early term abortions. During my time here I have slowly become more pro-life and now according to all normal definitions I am completely pro-life.
I agree that my religion plays no part in me being pro-life, and I never use it during an argument since not everyone is Christian, and I respect all faiths/nonfaiths.

reply from: churchmouse

Wow liberal........wow. I havent been on for a while, been taking care of my ill father, but you have changed.
I was pro-choice most my life, a Christian in name only. I had an abortion in 1980 just before I married my husband. It was his I killed and he supported me in that decision. Of course at that time....I didnt think it was anything that I was killing. A few years later I had two children and then in 1993 my sister had a child, a preemie born between 22 and 23 weeks. She weighted 1 pound 9 ounces and could fit into your hand end to end. I didnt get to hold her until she came home from the hospital 7 months later. But I will never forget the night she was born. They called the family in because they said, she would most likely not survive. They wanted to take her off life support but my sister and her husband said no. (Today she is in the national Honor Society at school. She wants to be a doctor and with a 4.6 I doubt highly that she wont make it. She is perfect health wise but does have vision problems and wears contacts.) I couldnt believe what i saw. My thoughts went back to the abortion I had because I knew they did abortions at her gestational age. I felt sick and had a panic attack. People thought my attack was about about my niece but I suffered in silence. How old was my baby?
And I suffered for years.....my pain affected my husband, children and family. I did not lie about what I had done. This is a subject that you dont talk to your childrens play group mothers about. You don't talk about it to anyone really. So you keep everything bottled up. I became suicidal, never tried but thought about it daily. I started reading the bible and then became aware about what God says about life. On 9/11, as the towers were falling I became born again and have made this my lifes ministry.
He changed me inside and out. Praise God.

reply from: CharlesD

What does 9/11 have to do with anything?
Do I really have to answer this question? Did 9/11 shake you at all, make you look at your life and decide what was really important?

reply from: CharlesD

That would probably put you in the minority then. That affected a lot of people and I have a few friends who decided that day to put their lives in order. If you weren't moved at least a little, that seems a bit calloused to me.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

9/11 convinced me even more that making the US a "religious" nation is a terrible thing. Look what it did to the Muslim countries.

reply from: scopia1982

I am prolife because of my faith. Only God is the giver and taker of life. I became rabidly prolife after the loss of my daughter 8 years ago.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I hope your father is doing better, Churchmouse! Yes, I have changed my views quite a lot since I last saw you.

reply from: Bgraphics

I've always concidered myself Pro-life, Growing up in a Baptist Church in NC. I lived with my grandmother, who was a pro-life supporter. When I turned 9 I asked my granny who my mother and father was. Being as though I never met either of them. She told me that my father left me in her care until he returned from the airforce. And that my mother had died during the pregnacy with me. Aclepsia I think was the cause of her passing. My grandmother told me that my mother could have save herself but choose to let me live. I never really understood why my mother did it. That was until 5 yrs ago when I had my first child who was born 2lb 10 onces. I never focused on being a voice for the un-born until after I found out my wifes sister had an abortion when she was 16 yrs old.
I started asking questions and finding out more about my mother. My father who had come home when I was 12 told me that she gave her life for mine. And told me there was an option given to my mother that she could abort me a 2 months prior to my birth. She turned it down and asked to carry out with the pregnacy and that if it come to her passing then so be it. I was born only weighing 2 lbs 3 oz. I asked myself why it was that so many babies have been killed, and seeing pictures of the ones that had, only assured me how wrong it was to murder the un-born. I looked at the aftermath that was carried out on the jews by the nazis. I tried to compare the two and realized that there was no comparison. That the nazis had killed only a few million jews and the Pro-Abortionist had killed over 250 million innocent lives. I wake up in the mournings to see that all 5 of my children are alive, and with me because of the un-selfish acts of the parents, and thier grandmother. When they smile, cry, laugh, I know that what might seem like the easy way out, is not always the best way out. Thats what makes me Pro-Life.

reply from: scopia1982

B the correct term is eclampsia. Not trying to be the grammar police, I probably didnt spell it right, but its close enough if you want to do a search to find out about it.

reply from: Bgraphics

B the correct term is eclampsia. Not trying to be the grammar police, I probably didnt spell it right, but its close enough if you want to do a search to find out about it.
Thank U

reply from: ProInformed

I was raised by parents who didn't see anything wrong with premarital sex and abortion.
My mother had two abortions and all of my sisters did.
I had one abortion that I didn't want but was pressured by mymother and boyfriend to go to a clinic... you know to get a pregnancy test, get my questions answered, and find out what assistance might be available for whatever I chose to do... The clinic 'counselor' (dressed like a nurse) told me the blood test revealed some severe condition that meant my baby and maybe even I would die anyway if I didn't abort. One of the questions I had asked is why was I sick all the time instead of just having 'morning sickness'. She said it was because the baby's blood Rh factor was incompatible with mine causing my red blood cells to die and that my baby would most likely die too.
I also asked questions about what my baby looked like. I was shown a huge poster with a uterus a couple of feet tall, the 'nurse' said the lining of the uterus would be 'gently removed' (pointing to the uterus) so that the 'fertilized ovum could not implant' (pointing to the Fallopian tube on the right side). I asked why the baby wasn't shown and she said because it was microscopic. I remember feeling sort of silly for not wanting to abort but when she told me there was supposedly some severe health problem I gave up and agreed to it. (Of course that is WHY she said that...) I really didn't know much about fetal development or how abortions were done. Most people didn't (and still don't). I wasn't aware of any reason to not trust this 'nurse/counselor'.
They had made my mother pay for an abortion as soon as we walked through the door but that alone would not have made me go through with it. I knew my mom would not leave without getting her money back because she had already complained about their pre-payment policy.
Before the abortion I didn't give abortion much thought. My parents had made one of my sisters have an abortion after she was raped and I didn't like it the way they had forced her to do it. After my abortion I became a 'pro-choice' activist and told people that I had to have an abortion for medical reasons. I really believed that and didn't learn the truth about how Rh factor works until a decade later when I was going to prenatal classes while pregnant with my eldest living child. In the meantime I chanted all the choicist slogans.
When I found out the truth and started asking questions I was still pro-choice for a couple of years. I was kind of a fence-sitter for a while, definitely not wanting to associate with pro-lifers and really searching for some reason to stay pro-choice.
But the 'pro-choice' groups made it very clear that I wasn't supposed to be asking any questions and that they didn't care at all about how I was lied to. And I was finding out that I wasn't the only woman that had been lied to just to sell an abortion. The clinic I went to was not merely one bad apple and the NAF was not the least bit interested in me alerting them to the problem at that clinic.
I decided to be pro-informed/pro-choice... then just pro-informed... then eventually pro-informed/pro-life. I decided to learn all I could and never again adhere to a POV based on what others had told me or even based on what I wanted to believe.
Also, I was an atheist and a feminist. I didn't become a Christian until I had been pro-life for several years. (My parents took us to churches off and on but they weren't very strict. My mom was mostly concerned about being a 'cool parent' and made fun of parents who told their kids to wait until marriage to have sex.)Because of the biased media I had never even heard of Feminists For Life until after I got in touch with pro-life groups. I was going to start an atheists/agnostics pro-life group but found out there arleady was one! Again I had just never heard about it because of the media bias.
BTW, my parents and most of my sisters also eventually became pro-life, some before me, some after me. I chanted choicist slogans at the ones who became pro-life before me and didn't allow myself to hear anything they wanted to tell me.
I thought they were only pro-life because they were Christians and that their info was just 'pro-life propaganda'.
My learning the truth and starting to question started because I got info from neutral sources not having anything to do with the pro-life movement. I didn't realize I had been lied to, didn't know I was chanting lies, and had no reason to think I would have to avoid taking prenatal classes when pregnant in order to avoid learning the truth.

reply from: scopia1982

PI it sounds like you and me were in the same boat. Although thank God you didnt have to go through what I did. That does not diminish your loss or any emotional trauma you experienced. Im just glad you were not under a death threat.

reply from: sheri

What sad stories, i will pray for both of you, for healing. Thank you for having the courage to speak the truth.

reply from: Witness

I have been pro-life most of my life. I don't remember when it started or why, just that I never considered killing children an acceptable option. I've argued the point for years, but didn't start doing any real witnessing until 2001.
Unlike some of the posters here my reason for being active is completely based on my relationship with God. I think once on this post I said I had proved God. That's because I have had several miraculous experiences through the years. Even some that have been witnessed by others.
Still, I almost didn't obey and become an active pro-lifer because of a horendous miscarriage I had over 20 years ago. I had been dieting, not eating at all really, so I didn't know I was pregnant. Basicly, I starved my son to death. Then I wound up holding him for about 30 minutes before the ambulance arrived. That's a long time to think about what effect your actions can have on another human being.
So, when God -- yeah, I hear you proaborts -- said He wanted me to write about the children, all I could think about was my son. So I resisted. The rest of the story is even more unbelievable so I'll just let you go look it up if you're that interested. My website is www.children-of-the-heart.net. My testimony is under "Articles".
I've always felt the way to judge whether someone worked for the Lord or not was by their fruit. When I finally gave in and wrote about the children, that piece of poetry -- "Little Innocents", website front page -- saved childrens lives, converted pro-aborts to pro-lifers (even some who weren't Christian), and moved inactive Christians into the fray. Considering I hadn't written anything in years and what I had written couldn't begin to compare, I think this piece makes the argument that God still speaks on its own.
My method of witnessing is in the Spirit and I'm highly effective at it. Obviously, not because of me, but because I finally submitted to His will.

reply from: sweet

(i'm careful with labeling myself as "prolife" or any other label), however, thankfully, God revealed to me the fact that abortion is murder--the shedding of innocent blood...in the past i thought it was OK...several friends and family members have had abortions...now i see that if we can allow this--all sorts of other evils can come from this.

reply from: Witness

Posted by Vexing: God sheds plenty of innocent blood.
What's the difference?
The very fact that He is God. Or do you think youself His equal to be judging Him?

reply from: Cecilia

PI it sounds like you and me were in the same boat. Although thank God you didnt have to go through what I did. That does not diminish your loss or any emotional trauma you experienced. Im just glad you were not under a death threat.
I felt forced into my abortion from my situation, and many empathetic people would say and have said that I was forced, but I take responsibility and feel that the final decision was mine. Of course, the difference now is that I have been harangued for my decision but no one would dare speak such to me if I now thought force was okay - that is, force to continue a pregnancy, as you do.
Because of that touch of experience with force, I am on the other page and support choices, no force, to either abort or continue pregnancy.

reply from: sweet

PI it sounds like you and me were in the same boat. Although thank God you didnt have to go through what I did. That does not diminish your loss or any emotional trauma you experienced. Im just glad you were not under a death threat.
I felt forced into my abortion from my situation, and many empathetic people would say and have said that I was forced, but I take responsibility and feel that the final decision was mine. Of course, the difference now is that I have been harangued for my decision but no one would dare speak such to me if I now thought force was okay - that is, force to continue a pregnancy, as you do.
Because of that touch of experience with force, I am on the other page and support choices, no force, to either abort or continue pregnancy.do you hate all who are against abortion now? and do you regret yours?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

B the correct term is eclampsia. Not trying to be the grammar police, I probably didnt spell it right, but its close enough if you want to do a search to find out about it.
Oh! That's what she meant! That's not being a typo nazi at all; thanks!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Those that are not christian will never take a christian argument seriously, and you just make a fool of yourself.

reply from: CharlesD

We all die.
As far as God is concerned, none of us is innocent. We have all rebelled against Him.
But that's for a different debate. How does God shed innocent blood? When a child dies of cancer or gets run over by a car? When people are killed in accidents with drunk drivers? Some people would say that since God is supposedly in control then when these so called innocents die then it was somehow His doing, especially the ones that die from diseases not linked to at risk behavior.
It does seem to me a bit unfair to blame God for the death of innocents since it is humans who have gotten the world into the mess it is in, a fallen world that isn't always healthy for innocent people. We were given free will, freedom of choice if you want to word it that way, and for the most part humans have not chosen wisely, thus a world in which innocent folks suffer and sometimes die. But in the long run, we all die, so what's the difference there? Why should God catch the blame though?

reply from: yoda

For me, the "why" IS an "obvious answer". But the "how I came to appreciate that answer" is not so obvious. In my case, many years ago I was unable to save my own baby from being electively killed, for the stated reason that "it might hinder my chances for a promotion on the job to give birth to this baby and give it to you". That made a powerful, powerful impression on me.

reply from: ProInformed

Yes I am responsible for caving to the pressure.
But I truly had no idea that abortion clinic 'counselors' shouldn't be trusted, that they lie to women just to sell abortions.
Do you help warn women to not trust the clinics?
Do you tell women that what they're told at the clinic might not be true, to NOT go to a clinic that sells abortions to get their pregnancy confirmed?
In what way specifically do you help protect women from pro-abortion, anti-choice coercion?
Have you ever belonged to a 'pro-choice' group or voted for a 'pro-choice' politician? What have they done to oppose women being coerced and lied to in order to get them to abort?

reply from: Witness

Post by LiberalChiRo: Those that are not christian will never take a christian argument seriously, and you just make a fool of yourself.
If I am a fool for Christ, then so be it. But your logic is flawed in that many do not become Christian until someone is fool enough to speak up. I am old enough and have enough experience under my belt to not be swayed or influenced by those who do not agree with me. While it is true I don't often argue with those who argue just to argue, for those who are earnest in their search it is worth the risk of embarrassment to speak on His behalf. Further, I would have to be an extremely selfish person not to want to share the abundant blessing I have through Him. In which case, I most likely would not go to the extremes I have to save the children.

reply from: CharlesD

Well, in a way, you're both right. People who become Christians usually do so because of some sort of persuasion from someone else, be it a pastor, parent, friend, etc. But what I think she was saying was that using Christian based arguments against abortions doesn't work as well with non Christians. They're not as pre disposed to even consider arguments that have their basis in the Christian faith. At least that's the way I read it. I always try to consider my audience when I'm debating abortion. If it's a Christian who claims to be for abortion, the Christian arguments come out, but if it's a non Christian I'm speaking to, I use other arguments. Now if you're trying to evangelize, then that's another story. A lot of non Christians don't take kindly to that, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

reply from: Bgraphics

Liberal claims to be a christian. Wait a Liberal christian, one that denies god and doesn't spred his word. One that claims to be Pro-Life, but is not. And finds a good argument by finding fault in the way someone can spell.
Growing up I was always told to spead the word. And live by Gods laws. I don't dare deny my lord. It states in Mark 8:14-38.
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said. "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it. but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. Then it goes on to say in verse 38: If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his fathers glory with the holy angels.
If you also recall Peter denied the Lord. He claimed not to know him, and also betrayed jesus by doing it all of which was predicted by him. Peter then ran from the meeting and seen demons, knowing he did his lord wrong.
You should never be ashamed to talk about the lord. If you do you betray him by your denial.

reply from: ProInformed

For me, the "why" IS an "obvious answer". But the "how I came to appreciate that answer" is not so obvious. In my case, many years ago I was unable to save my own baby from being electively killed, for the stated reason that "it might hinder my chances for a promotion on the job to give birth to this baby and give it to you". That made a powerful, powerful impression on me.
In addition to the death of your innocent baby being a horrible tragedy, it was a human sacrifice to the status quo. It did nothing to challenge women being subjected to job discrimination - it was not an act of 'feminism' but an act of bowing down to discrimination in the worst kind of pagan worship possible - human sacrifice of an innocent baby.
My deepest condolences for the loss of your precious baby's life.
It is a gross injustice that you had no legal right to protect your own baby.
BTW, did killing your baby pay off for her?
Did she get the coveted promotion?
Does she have any living children now?
Is she going to kill them too if she's up for another promotion at work?

reply from: churchmouse

Did you say at one time you were Christian?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Liberal claims to be a christian. Wait a Liberal christian, one that denies god
Buzz, lie #1.
I do not deny god. I simply don't make christianity the point of my whole existence. I maintain my own open mind.
Buzz, lie #2.
I feel that actions speak louder than words, so I spread the love of god through my proper behavior. I also do have conversations about god and christianity with others, and in that way help to spread his message of kindness, love, and forgiveness.
Buzz, lie #3.
I am very pro-life according to all normal definitions I can find. I'm certainly not pro-choice at all. I am pro-woman though, and so yes: I value her life first when it's on the line. Her right to live superceeds that of the baby in her womb.
Buzz, lie #4.
Oh, did you miss the whole conversation I had with someone else about how annoying I find spelling nazis to be? Yeah, I'll point out the occasional typo if it is repeated, such as "fill" vs "feel". Other than that, I try to contain myself because I know it's really irritating to the victim.
I'll assume you're still talking about me, so
Buzz, lie #5.
I'm not ashamed to talk about my religion at all. In fact I "came out" to my very liberal friends my last year of college soon after realizing that I was christian. They were very supportive. I began wearing a cross everywhere and still wear it. I love having theological discussions with open-minded people who aren't afraid to question everything, as God wants us to.

reply from: sheri

CP, lets hear your story, i never heard the whole thing about saving your own daughter.

reply from: yoda

I tend to think of it as a sacrifice to selfishness.
Thank you. Someone will have to answer for it someday.
I have no idea, and no desire to find out.
She had two boys at the time, that's all I know about.
Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

reply from: yoda

I could've guessed that. In fact, I doubt that the mere fact of birth would save any child of yours if you found that child to be inconvenient.

reply from: scopia1982

I think it is sad that a man has no legal say about what happens to his child before birth. I despise the man that coerces or forces a woman into an unwanted abortion. But I despise a woman even more who uses it as a power play.

reply from: 4given

What would be a smarter choice other than the obvious- not engaging in sexual activity? You equate the elective killing of another human being to a "foolish mistake"? Furthermore you blame the men- only half responsible for the life created. What is wrong with you? Are you seriously that needy, that you have taken on abortion as a power trip issue?

reply from: 4given

What is wrong with you? Abortion and murder equal an "LOL". How sickening that you value human life so little that you would waste others time with your hate and foolishness. You disgust me. Define abortion xena- from the unborn pov.

reply from: 4given

Women don't "fall pregnant". If you are so certain that this morally depraved country- (darkened only more so by kinship with you)will finally wake up to the abortion truth and prohibit it, why then would abortion via herbal remedies be desired?

reply from: ProInformed

What is wrong with you? Abortion and murder equal an "LOL". How sickening that you value human life so little that you would waste others time with your hate and foolishness. You disgust me. Define abortion xena- from the unborn pov.
I'm laughing at somebody's comment that is just silly.
I don't waste anybody's time - they can put me on ignore! You certainly seem to enjoy "wasting your time" to berate me.
I nominate xena's obvious callousness be added to the lunatic fringe thread.
It disproves the oft chanted lie that choicists give abortion serious consideration.
The abortion industry was able to pretend for decades that choicist extremism simply didn't exist and that 'nobody' is fialing to take abortion seriosly. Internet access is proving otherwise.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well the internet brings out all the freaks.

reply from: churchmouse

Seriously? You take it seriously? Why?
Is there something wrong with abortion xena?
You are pro-choice arent you?
If you think its ok to abort, then why give it a thought? No big deal.
If you dont think its right, then why do you condone it?

reply from: Bgraphics

I praise you for saving the children, but you deny god when you stated it is okey to go aginst his laws by murdering even when its the mothers time to go home.
Liberal claims to be a christian. Wait a Liberal christian, one that denies god
Buzz, lie #1.
I do not deny god. I simply don't make christianity the point of my whole existence. I maintain my own open mind.
Luke 14:25-35
Buzz, lie #2.
I feel that actions speak louder than words, so I spread the love of god through my proper behavior. I also do have conversations about god and christianity with others, and in that way help to spread his message of kindness, love, and forgiveness.
It shouldn't be any other way. But that is giving him only 50%
Buzz, lie #3.
I am very pro-life according to all normal definitions I can find. I'm certainly not pro-choice at all. I am pro-woman though, and so yes: I value her life first when it's on the line. Her right to live superceeds that of the baby in her womb.
Okey lets say you are undecided, or half way there.
I say this because there is laws that God gave Moses.
one of which states do not commit muder. I'm sure you are a law abiding citizen here on earth. But how would you answer to gods laws when you go before him.
He is the true judge. right? and his law is clear. When you deny to allow what he intends is going agaisnt him.
Buzz, lie #4.
Oh, did you miss the whole conversation I had with someone else about how annoying I find spelling nazis to be? Yeah, I'll point out the occasional typo if it is repeated, such as "fill" vs "feel". Other than that, I try to contain myself because I know it's really irritating to the victim.
I admit spelling isn't my strong point but that doesn't mean I'm stupid.
I'll assume you're still talking about me, so
I wasn't ..
Buzz, lie #5.
I'm not ashamed to talk about my religion at all. In fact I "came out" to my very liberal friends my last year of college soon after realizing that I was christian. They were very supportive. I began wearing a cross everywhere and still wear it. I love having theological discussions with open-minded people who aren't afraid to question everything, as God wants us to.
I encorage you to read the scripture I listed. Please forgive me for questioning your faith. I normally don't do it. But sometimes I think its worth it. You are probally hating me right now. But let me just say. I was told by my pastor in which I confine to every other day. And he told me long ago no matter what branch of christianity you are in that if you want to reach the kingdom of heaven you need to live by Gods laws. And to not question his word. I layed down my life to him 100%. not just half. If the kingdom of god is what you are looking for then don't just give 99%. The parable in the passage I gave you is Don't be a follower in christ. Be a Desciple. That means live for god first and everyone else second. That means to not find ways around his laws, even if it does seem logical. Satan can deceive you in many ways, as he did to Eve in the garden. He made it seem logical to pick the fruit/embrio. But it wasn't. He tricked her into breaking gods law.

reply from: CharlesD

It might be interesting to note that if you read that account in scripture, Eve took a bite and then gave the fruit to Adam who also took a bite. If you read that literally, you see that there's no mention of Adam being offered the fruit some time later, so we can assume that he was probably there for the whole affair. Some husband he was if he was there all along while his wife is being tempted and he never stepped in and intervened. Eve might have taken the first bite, but Adam was right there and he didn't hesitate when offered the fruit. They were both to blame.

reply from: Bgraphics

As usual, it comes back to blaming women.
They are both to blame, note that he tricked her HE being satan. to be curious is sinful god made them without sin. God didn't allow satan to exist he gave his angel freedom to choose, when he went against god, He was flung from the heavens to rule the gates of hell. He choose to deny god and got what he deserved. God also give you a choice, Its you who makes the decision on what you want in the after life.

reply from: CharlesD

I wouldn't say curiosity is sinful. How would we learn new things without being curious? I would say that having to satisfy every curiosity can lead to sin though.

reply from: Witness

To LiberalChiRo and Bgraphics:
The thing about God and me is that I am so completely sold out to Him that I can't hardly have a conversation without including Him. I certainly wouldn't be in the fight for the children's lives were it not for Him. So, whether I'm speaking to Christian or non - about abortion or anything else - He's so primarily on my mind that it just comes out. He is the best part of my life. It's only natural to want to share that.

reply from: Witness

What's disturbing is that you slander Him when He could take you out with a thought. You do realize He's listening?

reply from: Witness

Posted by Vexing: I've been slandering 'him' since I was a teenager. He's certainly taking his time 'taking me out'. Oh wait; I'm all powerful and I could take YOU out with a thought.
I just choose not to, because it's all part of my 'plan' for you.
What do you want from Him, Vexing? I mean, really. You seem to go back and forth with your arguments. So, what do you really want from Him?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well I am. I guess that means I'm more self-sufficient. I couldn't imagine living my life for one man, woman OR deity.
Sex was the best part of my life at one point but that didn't mean I shared it with everyone.

reply from: scopia1982

Originally posted by: LiberalChiRo
[
"Well I am. I guess that means I'm more self-sufficient. I couldn't imagine living my life for one man, woman OR deity."
Believing in God does not mean that a person is not self sufficient. It is because of the strength that God gives me that I can be self reliant. To each their own.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

This may be true but that doesn't mean I'll stand back and deny him.
Ain't asking you to.
I completely disagree, so we'll just have to leave this part of the argument at that. As I said, I speak up when it is topical.
Extremes like Oh, bombing a clinic or murdering an abortion doctor?
Again, I completely, 100% disagree with you and I'll support murdering children to save the mother's life until the day I die. You should not be OK with ectopic removal according to your own words, so don't be calling ME a hypocrite. Saving not just the woman but all of her potential children is far more important to me.
Buzz, lie #2.
I feel that actions speak louder than words, so I spread the love of god through my proper behavior. I also do have conversations about god and christianity with others, and in that way help to spread his message of kindness, love, and forgiveness.
It shouldn't be any other way. But that is giving him only 50%
I also said I speak of him. I just don't do it 24/7. You have only ONE interpretation of christianity and that doesn't make you right.
Buzz, lie #3.
I am very pro-life according to all normal definitions I can find. I'm certainly not pro-choice at all. I am pro-woman though, and so yes: I value her life first when it's on the line. Her right to live superceeds that of the baby in her womb.
Okey lets say you are undecided, or half way there.
That would still be lying. So no, let's NOT say that. I am pro-life by all definitions except yours. I'll take "all others", thanks. You have many definitions I completely disagree with so I'm certainly not going to take your word for it on being pro-life. You are anti woman as far as I'm concerned.
Yeeeah. New testament buddy. I'm liberal christian, not jewish.
Letting a woman die when there is a medical procedure that could save her life is murder. So we're both violating that "law". I, however, did it through action. I make a choice. You sit there and twiddle your thumbs and that is despicable. God helps those who help themselves, not those who sit idly by and watch women die.
The same way I just did. And he would nod and agree.
And you are clearly violating it as well. But who do you think will do better: Me, who stood up and made a choice, or you, who sat back and watched someone die when you could have prevented it? I'm betting on me. Those who try are rewarded.
Medical science exists because he allowed us to invent it. It is up to us to decide when to use this technology to save ourselves. Denying this procedure is suicide, and that's a sin too. Denying a woman this procedure is murder, allowing it might be murder, so you have to decide whose life is worth more? The mother's.
Buzz, lie #4.
Oh, did you miss the whole conversation I had with someone else about how annoying I find spelling nazis to be? Yeah, I'll point out the occasional typo if it is repeated, such as "fill" vs "feel". Other than that, I try to contain myself because I know it's really irritating to the victim.
I admit spelling isn't my strong point but that doesn't mean I'm stupid.
Uh, I never said you were. Where on earth are you getting this from? I just told you how I DISLIKE picking on people's spelling and you're acting like I didn't just defend you.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It disturbs me that you are 'sold' on a being who created humans purely to torment them.
"Don't eat this apple; even though I made you curious and gullible!"
God knew what would happen. He did it on purpose. He wanted them to suffer.
Your belief is the equivalent of voting an insane, fascist dictator into power.
Actually, I can explain the whole "he wanted them to suffer" thing by explaining omniscience and free will to you, if you actually care.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

And it's because I believe in MYSELF that I am radiant.

reply from: CharlesD

It is the law that shows us our sin and our need for a Savior. None of us follows the law 100%. We all fall short, which is why grace is such a beautiful thing.

reply from: CharlesD

Nasty little think called free will. As to the other verses, I don't think the Bible is saying that if you ever commit a sin again that you are not saved. I read that to mean that if you continue in a mindset of willful sinning, if you go right on doing the same things because you think you have grace to fall back on, then you are missing the whole point of grace. That's what Paul meant when he asked if we should sin more that grace may abound. If you claim to have become a Christian, yet your life doesn't change; you now know the truth but don't do anything about it, then what have you really done?

reply from: yoda

I don't often comment on religious issues, but I will say that I sometimes find it fascinating that those who deny the existence of God make some whoppers of logical mistakes when they try to state their case. Like the often asked question "If there is a God who is so powerful, why does (fill in the blank) still happen? That question contains the assumption that if one has the power to do a particular thing, one always uses that power.... and that's laughable.

reply from: Witness

Posted by LCR: Originally posted by: Witness
To LiberalChiRo and Bgraphics:
The thing about God and me is that I am so completely sold out to Him that I can't hardly have a conversation without including Him. I certainly wouldn't be in the fight for the children's lives were it not for Him.
Well I am. I guess that means I'm more self-sufficient. I couldn't imagine living my life for one man, woman OR deity.
So, whether I'm speaking to Christian or non - about abortion or anything else - He's so primarily on my mind that it just comes out. He is the best part of my life. It's only natural to want to share that.
Sex was the best part of my life at one point but that didn't mean I shared it with everyone.
Leaning on God for help is not the same thing as leaning on a person. I'm really surprised you don't understand that. And your second comment doesn't even deserve an answer. I'm disappointed in you. Perhaps you're not worth having the conversation with.

reply from: scopia1982

I agree with you Yoda, it all bulls down to faith, we have no concrete proof whether he exists or does not exist. I as a Catholic, have a strong faith that He does, but an Atheist has a strong sense of faith that he does not.

reply from: Witness

Originally posted by: Witness
What do you want from Him, Vexing? I mean, really. You seem to go back and forth with your arguments. So, what do you really want from Him?
Posted by Vexing:What do I really want from him?
A vagina, a uterus, no Y chromosome and a pair of ovaries.
Then again, I might as well ask the Invisible Pink Unicorn for those - I've got an equal chance of being disappointed.
Did you ever try asking God about yourself? You've spent so much time and effort screaming at Him. I just wonder if you ever honestly sought an answer directly from Him? I mean, with sincerity and over time? Because He isn't going to answer unless He's sure you're in earnest and that takes time and commitment. I don't know about the Pink Unicorn. I doubt anyone's ever heard from him, but God does speak and has spoken. There is a real difference between speaking to a madeup diety and one that has a history of communicating with His creation. You might just be surprised -- that is if you're serious about anything other than screaming about your situation.

reply from: yoda

And that's the way it ought to be, IMO. If there was concrete proof, how would we separate those who actually had faith from those who were just terrified?

reply from: CharlesD

Maybe not what most folks would call concrete proof, but there is plenty of evidence that points to the world having been created. Who the creator is can be debated ad nauseum, but that's a different debate. Just the complexity of the universe is evidence of it having been designed. Most people don't have a problem with that. The arguments start when we debate who the designer was.

reply from: churchmouse

Women are to blame for a lot, what dont you get?
Yes you are right. Adam was created first. He was head of the household and responsible for what Eve did.
Who was the responsible for the Garden? Adam
To whom did God give the command to not eat of that tree? Adam
Eve not only disobeyed God but Adam. He was in charge of the garden and everything in it. He was top dog, Eve was his helpmate. Eve, was the "weaker vessel" (1Pe3:7)

Whats amazing is that you claimed at one time to be a Christian VExing and you say things like this.
"They were set up by God.
He made them how they were.
He wanted them to suffer."
Witness you are doing exactly as God commands HIS PEOPLE TO DO. You glorify Him in ALL YOU DO. If the Holy Spirit dwells in a person.......you see it.
maybe thats why some here dont get it.

vexing said, "I've been slandering 'him' since I was a teenager.
He's certainly taking his time 'taking me out'.
Oh wait; I'm all powerful and I could take YOU out with a thought.
I just choose not to, because it's all part of my 'plan' for you. "
You do nothing to God that he does not allow you to do. He blesses those He loves.
As far as God taking you out?
Have you ever been in pain emotionally or physically? Do you have problems in your life that have not been fun? I know you have you have shared some.
Maybe this is a result of your sinfulness. Maybe He is spanking you. He has a plan......and it is perfect. If you are not close to HIm and you choose to live according to the standards man.......then you get what you get. STand up to the plate and accept it.....and quit blaming people especially God.
You blame God for who you are. In fact you hate him for who you are that is obvious.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Women are to blame for a lot, what dont you get?
You sexist pig. Go rot.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Name one non-biblical piece of evidence that supports the earth being "created" by a Godly hand.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I agree with you Yoda, it all bulls down to faith, we have no concrete proof whether he exists or does not exist. I as a Catholic, have a strong faith that He does, but an Atheist has a strong sense of faith that he does not.
YOU get it. :3

reply from: Witness

Vexing you never answered my question: Did you ever try asking God about yourself? You've spent so much time and effort screaming at Him. I just wonder if you ever honestly sought an answer directly from Him? I mean, with sincerity and over time? Because He isn't going to answer unless He's sure you're in earnest and that takes time and commitment. I don't know about the Pink Unicorn. I doubt anyone's ever heard from him, but God does speak and has spoken. There is a real difference between speaking to a madeup diety and one that has a history of communicating with His creation. You might just be surprised -- that is if you're serious about anything other than screaming about your situation.

reply from: Antibigot

A symbol for atheism's contempt for religion? Is that what you think atheism is all about? I am an atheist and I DON'T have any contempt for religion itself.

reply from: Antibigot

Of course I don't think that's what atheism is all about.
However, the IPU, just like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, pokes fun at all religions.
Perhaps 'contempt' is too strong a word.
The IPU and FSM are humourous representations of the qualities of most dieties, pointing out the silliness and unbelievability of all of them.
It's more of a coincidence that the IPU has become a symbol for atheism.
Google more.
I don't care for making fun of religions. I find that religions can help people. Sure, there are extremists and their beliefs can cause hate and destruction, but believing can do good, too.

reply from: Antibigot

Considering the fact that some assert that their religion is the only reason they have for doing what is "right," I think we should all be grateful that they hold such beliefs.
I agree that religion is a good thing for some people, but I'm not convinced that the good points outweigh the bad. Religion, or religious beliefs (not just Christianity), is also the root cause of much of the evil in this world.
That's true, but I always felt that if there were no religion, just as much evil would occur. Religion doesn't make people evil. Evil is already in them and with no religion, they'd still have some other reason to do evil acts.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Religion wrongly used can be a tool for evil people. I thought about it for a second and I think it may possibly draw out in some people a level of evilness they would not normally have achieved, but that is true of any empowering institution.

reply from: CharlesD

Check out http://www.reasons.org. Good place to do a lot of reading.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Check out http://www.reasons.org. Good place to do a lot of reading.
Speculative arguments, no matter how compelling, do not constitute "evidence."
Ah, so it's not even worth reading. Gotcha.

reply from: CharlesD

Look, I posted that site as a good place for people to do a bit of reading on some of the scientific research that is ongoing and seems to at least point to the world having been created. It's pretty compelling, not to mention fascinating from a scientific point of view. An honest person with an open mind will at least take a look at the other side and then weigh everything to make a decision.
You know what though? There really isn't a such thing as a 100% written in stone proof. There is evidence and you have to weigh it and see if the weight of it is sufficient to point to an outside causal agent. Most people believe in something larger than ourselves that created the world. Different people have different names and ideas of what that entity is. If you look at the way the universe is fine tuned, the way everything is in balance to create the conditions on this planet to support life, the mathematical odds of everything coming out of nothing all by itself are pretty staggering. But if that isn't enough and you want God to walk into a courtroom and hand over a signed and notarized confession that He exists and made the world, I can't help you there. I posted that site for the benefit of anyone who might be open enough to take a look at it. Take it for what you will.

reply from: Witness

Vexing said: The Invisible Pink Unicorn is a symbol for atheism's contempt for religion. She must exist, but we can't see her. But we have faith that she is pink, even though she is invisible and we will never know what colour she is.
Try Google next time.
I'll counter with this: Have you ever TRULY questioned your belief and thoroughly examined the reasons why you believe? You have a brain. Use it. Don't be such a blind sheep.
I didn't look up the Invisible Pink Unicorn because I assumed you were talking about a symbol rather than a diety. Obviously, I was right.
I've not only questioned, I've sought out and proved -- to myself and those close enough to know what's gone on in my life -- the God I believe in and follow. If you are really interested, you could prove Him yourself. It does seem that you are much more interested in denying Him without actually seeking Him. That is much easier, of course, because earnestly seeking God until He speaks takes real time and effort. I can't promise you He'll come stand in your livingroom, but I can tell you that He does answer. And, when He does you won't be wondering who it was. It literally comes down to how bad you really want to know.
I went through a period in my life when I needed desperately to know. So, I spent months -- maybe even a year -- asking the One who created us -- whomever that was -- to let me know if my life was worth living. I did it constantly. I did it with great respect. And I did it with love. I would say things like, "IF there is anyone out there" and "IF You care about me" and "I just want You to know I love You". Obviously, I was young enough to think that if I acted in love, whomever answered would, too. Anyway, one day He responded with those 3 little words that everyone lives to hear, "I love you."
It was loud. It was audible and I knew exactly who said it. Don't ask me how. If you try this little experiment, you'll know. Anyway, I told my mother and she sent me straightaway to my grandmother -- the only one in the house that studied the Bible. When I described the voice, she said it was exactly like the one mentioned in Revelation. I'm not sure I even had a Bible at the time. If I did, I certainly wasn't studying it and hadn't heard of the verse she quoted. It sounded like water pouring through a huge dam at flood stage. The power was incredible and, at the same time, the intent was so tender.
So, the ball is literally in your court. You can continue to complain or you can seek out the only One who can really help you -- your choice.

reply from: churchmouse

You need to grow up.
Who is really to blame my dear?
For the woman getting pregnant? Its her body remember and she holds the cards not only with her life but with her childs. If she said no to sex......pregnancy would not happen. She takes the chance.
For the abortion? The doctor kills the child.....ONLY AFTER THE WOMAN PAYS TO HAVE THE KILLING DONE.
Who walks in the abortion mills to have the procedure? Who signs the consent forms?
Who makes the ultimate decision? Who lays on the table?
That is not being sexist, its placing the blame where it belongs. And the most of the blame lies with the woman with the case of abortion.
No abortion would take place if there was not a consumer buying a service.

reply from: scopia1982

"That is not being sexist, its placing the blame where it belongs. And the most of the blame lies with the woman with the case of abortion."
For some women, this would apply. But what about the ones who are pressured by employer, family, partners? Most of the women I know in real life that have had abortions felt they had no other choice, because a 3rd party coerced or pressured them.

reply from: churchmouse

scopia they are still responsible. If you dont want to get pregnant then dont have sex. If you want sex, then stand up to the plate should soemthing happen.
How do you think they do partial birth abortions? The doctor cant even look at the head, its so gruesome. No women could not do it, they couldnt take it.

reply from: yoda

That's something a lot of people overlook. "Proof" is in the eye of the beholder(s), just like beauty.

reply from: yoda

You have to ask the question "How much pressure was applied?"
In most cases, any pressure or influence used to push a woman towards an abortion simply means that she AND the ones putting the pressure on her are ALL equally guilty of the abortion. Only in the case of an actual physical assault and kidnapping is the woman without blame.

reply from: scopia1982

How do you think they do partial birth abortions? The doctor cant even look at the head, its so gruesome. No women could not do it, they couldnt take it.
Churchmouse I didnt post that.

reply from: carolemarie

You have to ask the question "How much pressure was applied?"
In most cases, any pressure or influence used to push a woman towards an abortion simply means that she AND the ones putting the pressure on her are ALL equally guilty of the abortion. Only in the case of an actual physical assault and kidnapping is the woman without blame.
The problem is that both things are true at the same time. Women are trapped and scared and under pressure. And it is also true that they didn't have to do it.
The problem is the legality of abortion. If abortion was against the law, doctors wouldn't do them and women wouldn't seek them (the majority of people)
abortion would be rare.
But the consumer (the woman) is under the most pressure of all. Hers is personal and the providers is financial or a misguided concern for women....
Neither is evil, they are just wrong...

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You have to ask the question "How much pressure was applied?"
In most cases, any pressure or influence used to push a woman towards an abortion simply means that she AND the ones putting the pressure on her are ALL equally guilty of the abortion. Only in the case of an actual physical assault and kidnapping is the woman without blame.
The problem is that both things are true at the same time. Women are trapped and scared and under pressure. And it is also true that they didn't have to do it.
The problem is the legality of abortion. If abortion was against the law, doctors wouldn't do them and women wouldn't seek them (the majority of people)
abortion would be rare.
But the consumer (the woman) is under the most pressure of all. Hers is personal and the providers is financial or a misguided concern for women....
Neither is evil, they are just wrong...
It is evil to murder an unborn baby and dump his or her body.

reply from: carolemarie

GL4U2L
None of the people involved see themselves as evil. Most think they are basically good people, and they probably are, abortion is a tragic mistake

reply from: scopia1982

Yoda you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. If a woman has pressure put on her that she feels she has no choice, but to abort the blame IMO is on the ones that pressured her. It does not have to involve physical assault or kidnappring. A rape victim can be coerced or pressured into have sexual relations, physical assault does not have to be used in order for it to be considered rape. Pressuring a woman to have sex against her will can be prosecuted as rape. The blame is on the perpetrator, not the victim. Same thing in cases of coerced abortions.

reply from: churchmouse

scopia sorry......i dont know how to change it????????

reply from: Witness

Lol! Vexing, you need to quit complaining. The answer just struck you in the face and you treated it like bird-poo. God has been speaking and being heard by man since He created man. I think you just like to complain.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There is the word "Edit" in bold, black letters beneath every single post you make.

reply from: Cecilia

Yoda you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. If a woman has pressure put on her that she feels she has no choice, but to abort the blame IMO is on the ones that pressured her. It does not have to involve physical assault or kidnappring. A rape victim can be coerced or pressured into have sexual relations, physical assault does not have to be used in order for it to be considered rape. Pressuring a woman to have sex against her will can be prosecuted as rape. The blame is on the perpetrator, not the victim. Same thing in cases of coerced abortions.
Certainly you have to agree that the women are not (always) mindless sheep being led by a rope to abortion mills.
Sometimes women choose abortion, and then sometimes they turn around and blame everyone else but themselves for a decision they now regret. I am sorry they regret it, but I am skeptical that they were unable to choose otherwise.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's what I mean.
Yes, that is an added pressure.
Well, that's a matter of interpretation....... IMHO, being "wrong" about the killing of an innocent human being IS being "evil".
Sorry, that's just how I see it.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, you're right, we will just have to agree to disagree.
I do agree to a certain point, but beyond the point where a woman has the opportunity to tell a clinic employee that she doesn't want the abortion, I cannot agree.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's the point at issue.
Is there a moment in the process where a woman has the opportunity to tell someone that she doesn't really want the abortion? Is there a moment where her desires will be respected? If there is, then she bears at least a part of the responsibility.

reply from: scopia1982

In my case I told them...

reply from: yoda

Then we are talking about two different situations.

reply from: carolemarie

Your case is rare, not the norm. You are completely innocent and have no part of the blame in the matter.
But most women know on some level what they are doing. They just don't see another way out. That is why we need to help them, so they can let their children live. To help them you have to talk to them and find a solution to their problems...or they will be backed into a corner and will do what is the best for themselves.

reply from: churchmouse

"There is the word "Edit" in bold, black letters beneath every single post you make."
It is not there.

reply from: cracrat

That's complete crap. It's one of the stock answers trotted out by people trying to justify ID/creationism but nobody has ever actually checked to see if it is true. Until recently of course. See:
http://space.newscientist.com/article/mg19926673.900-is-our-universe-finetuned-for-life.html

reply from: churchmouse

And little Miss Congeniality said, "Then you are blind."
You are so sweet. LOL

reply from: DeanClark

The reason I'm so Pro-life is because my mom had me instead of having an abortion. Then I was adopted out to a nice family. I'm living proof that adoption works and abortion doesn't.

reply from: ockraz

What is the group called? Do you have any info on it?

reply from: kd78

the wiccan rede says "an ye harm none, do what thy will." so i took that to mean try your best not to hurt others. i went veggie 5 years ago. and then the following year i went pro-life. it felt wrong being against how animals are treated for food and such in america but then say it's ok to kill unborn babies. i confirmed my decision with randy alcorn's book pro-life answers to pro-choice arguments. it's an excellent book full of tons of information broken down into categories. i read norma mccorbey's book and gianna jessen's book, too. also looking back to how i treated girls i knew back in the day going through a pregnancy scare, i never steered them towards abortion. i always tried to get them info on how they could care for the pregnancy and/or baby while still finishing school and getting medical care. i love kids born or unborn. so being pro-choice was just stupid. the only pro-lifers i knew of back then were all uber christian right wingers, and most of their views of people didn't fit mine.

reply from: Weenie

I leaned towards being pro-life because of my attraction towards conservative politics, but I didn't really get it until my first child was born. Even though I saw my wife becoming larger and larger, I still didn't get it--not until I saw the "miracle" in the hospital--and then it really hit me what was going on before he was born. He didn't just magically appear on his birth day.

reply from: MrBill

There is no empirical scientific proof that there is anything before or after this life. There are SUBJECTIVE experiences that suggest that there is. But, no hard evidence other than our personal mysterious awareness (of the possibility). For this reason alone, life is a gift. Everyone should have the chance to enjoy their life to the best of their ability. To commit infanticide, feoticide, embycide, or zygocide(I just coined new words!) for the sake of convenience is sheer selfishness.

reply from: Rosalie

The only thing you are a proof of is that adoption worked for YOU. Your statement as a whole is mind-bogglingly stupid.
Too bad that the fact that women are more than just containers for fetuses and that they have reproductive rights and that no one has the right to use their body against their will hasn't hit you yet.


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