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An Embryo/Fetus Is A"Child Without Rights":

The Flawed Arguments Of The Pro-Choice Lobbyists

by: LiberalChiRo

Sorry; I have a love for long and descriptive titles!
Anyway, on to my points. Choicers claim that the unborn have no rights, and they state many opinions backed by facts to support these claims. The problem comes with their interpretation of these facts. The other problem is that they're wrong, period. Unborn children certainly DO have rights already, which I will go into.
In many (if not all) states, if a person kills a pregnant woman, it can count as double homicide. This very fact lends the unborn the right to live, the very right pro-choicers argue they do not have!
The first and most common argument from pro-choicers is this:
A woman has the right to control her body - and anything in it. Well, the problem with that argument is that the unborn also has a right to control its body, and abortion therefor violates this right. We've already verified it has a legal right to life, why is it so hard to say that part of life is controlling your own body? The woman's body stops at the placenta. The amniotic sac, the placenta itself, the cord, and all of the amniotic fluid is produced by the baby and the placenta. The womb is simply a vessel.
Next, pro-choicers argue that since the child is not fully developed, it has no right to life because it cannot sustain its own life outside of the womb. I assume the law pertaining to double homicide probably only applies post-viability. Well the argument is silly: do babies not have a right to food because they can't feed themselves? Nonsense. Do I not have the right to breathe air because I can't breathe it while under water? Very silly. Do teens never have a right to a car in the future just because they can't drive one now? Of course not. Actually no one has a "right" to a car but you get my point. Being unable to do something doesn't mean you don't have the right to someday do it when you are capable. Just because I can't practice medicine right now because I lack knowledge doesn't mean I don't have the right to learn medicine and someday be a doctor.
What else do they argue? Oh right, that birth is terrible and dangerous. I've already stated elsewhere on here my opinions on birth vs abortion, and factoring in both the woman and the child, the risks of abortion are much higher than birth. For the mother alone, statistics show abortion is safer, but if you ignore the baby, then you're not pregnant so why are you aborting? The baby is and must always be a patient in the abortion debate.
Yes, being accidentally pregnant sucks. No one is going to argue that. But it's a result of a voluntary action that you willingly participated in.
Pro-choicers often use the car crash example to defend abortion.
If you are in a car crash (become accidentally pregnant) you still have the right to full treatment (apparently getting an abortion)." Well here's my rebuttal. You aren't denied treatment after a crash, but you may have to wait several months for the cast to come off your broken leg. Similarly, a pregnancy lasts several months and is not instantly over.
I can't think of many things in this world that are "cured" as quickly and as violently as pregnancy is with abortion.
Having a broken leg is not punishment for getting in an accident, so why do pro-choicers feel pregnancy is punishment for sex? It's not, it's just a consequence like a broken bone. Consequences can be good or bad based only on your view of the consequence. Nature does not punish or reward. nature just has consequences for actions. You chose to have sex and you choose to consider pregnancy a punishment. Or, you choose to acknowledge that is simply a result of having sex.
People who drive carefully and wear seatbelts (women who use birth control) still get into car crashes. They are certainly not being punished for anything but may face months in a cast and rehabilitation anyway. But no one goes to a hospital expecting to be cured instantly of their broken leg because the crash wasn't their fault. No; people know that they have to wear the cast and heal. It's not punishment for anything, it's just how our bodies work. Being pregnant is not a punishment for having sex, it's just what you have to do because an accident happened.
Does that make sense? I like taking well-known pro-choice arguments and using them to logically defeat their own arguments. They'd call it "twisting".
The broken leg can be used even more! Here, see:
If your leg is broken in said accident, and "instant" way to heal it would be to amputate it, since voila! no more broken leg. What? Hey, you didn't want to wait several months for your leg to heal in a cast! You can avoid that "punishment"! But now a part of you is missing forever. You leg can't survive without you; it dies. All because you didn't want to wait a few months.
If this sounds ridiculous it's because abortion is ridiculous! It's ridiculous to kill a perfectly healthy baby just because you're too impatient to wait 9 months. Are you going to be exactly the same after the birth as you were before? Of course not, but that person with the broken leg is never going to be the same again either. It doesn't mean either of you are being punished, that's just how nature is! Every time you have sex you risk getting pregnant. You should face the consequences. This means carrying to term, instead of "amputating" the baby.
The leg comparison can be used for late term abortion and premature birth too. Say you amputate your leg the day your cast is about to come off. Pretty stupid. Then again, if for some reason the cast breaks or needs to come off early (for what ever reason) as long as you're a little bit careful, your leg will probably be okay.
Finally, the last pro-choice argument: "The woman has the right to not be pregnant." Um, where is that law written? End of discussion.

reply from: BossMomma

So tell me, if the fetus already has rights then why is abortion legal? Why have fetal rights never been documented? The only time someone is prosecuted for killing a viable fetus is if the woman pregnant presses the charges. So, give me a source for these "rights" that no one's ever heard of. Until then, it's just your opinion, not a fact.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Abortion is legal for the same reasons slavery was legal. People "thought" it was okay. That doesn't make it true. And you've never heard of double homicide in relation to pregnant mothers? That's your own fault for living under a rock, not mine.

reply from: BossMomma

Now look whose getting insulting? How full of hate. Abortion is legal because the majority think it's okay, whether it's true or not is irrelevent. And yes I've heard of double homicide such as in the case of Lacy Peterson and her unborn son. Scott was charged in the murder of both because 1) the baby was viable. 2) the baby was found seperate from the mother with duct tape wrapped around his neck, there was no way of knowing whether the child was born alive and then killed.

reply from: yoda

The Roe court did not take polls, nor consult them before making their decision, so public support had zero to do with it.
And if you think that whether something is right or wrong is "irrelevant", then you apparently have no moral standards.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Now look whose getting insulting? How full of hate. Abortion is legal because the majority think it's okay, whether it's true or not is irrelevent. And yes I've heard of double homicide such as in the case of Lacy Peterson and her unborn son. Scott was charged in the murder of both because 1) the baby was viable. 2) the baby was found seperate from the mother with duct tape wrapped around his neck, there was no way of knowing whether the child was born alive and then killed.
Morality is not irrelevant. If abolitionists felt morality was irrelevant, slavery would still be legal. Women would still be second class citizens. Gays would not be fighting for their rights if they felt morality was irrelevant!
Secondly, since you have heard of these cases, then you must admit that the unborn already has the right to life via law, since killing it constitutes as murder.

reply from: Caidenbug

liberal that post really needs to be all over the internet!!!! It was great!!! thank you for saying everything I have been trying to say.

reply from: BossMomma

Now look whose getting insulting? How full of hate. Abortion is legal because the majority think it's okay, whether it's true or not is irrelevent. And yes I've heard of double homicide such as in the case of Lacy Peterson and her unborn son. Scott was charged in the murder of both because 1) the baby was viable. 2) the baby was found seperate from the mother with duct tape wrapped around his neck, there was no way of knowing whether the child was born alive and then killed.
Morality is not irrelevant. If abolitionists felt morality was irrelevant, slavery would still be legal. Women would still be second class citizens. Gays would not be fighting for their rights if they felt morality was irrelevant!
Secondly, since you have heard of these cases, then you must admit that the unborn already has the right to life via law, since killing it constitutes as murder.
But it still begs the question, why is abortion legal if the fetus has these rights you speak of?

reply from: Cecilia

If you are in a car accident I am sure you'd be opposed to politicians determining what the most moral treatment is for your injuries versus yourself and your doctors, as well as moralists insisting that the 'natural' course of your actions should be followed, since you made the conscious decision to get into a vehicle.
I do not know if you have children, I know you are very young, have you ever been "accidentally pregnant"? Or talked to anyone dealing with that?
It's not that pregnancy in and of itself is punishment, it's that the basis of denying a woman an abortion solely on a moral stancepoint and forcing her to give birth can certainly be seen as punishment.
"I am not going to let you get your finger stitched because you shouldn't have been playing with a knife in the first place. You knew you could get cut with it. This is not punishment because your finger handing by a thread is nature in action."
If someone wants their leg cut off as treatment, you'd leave it up to the person and their doctors, not a politician or random person A on the street.
Oh my, another young girl belittling pregnancy, another antiabortionist who thinks the only way to be proper is supporting forced birth, another person who has bought into the naturalistic fallacy.

reply from: sk1bianca

1. pregnancy is not a disease and abortion is not a treatment.
2. we cannot compair an unborn human with a limb or a body part. it is INSIDE his mother, but NOT A PART of her (if i had a $ for every time i said that...).
3. can you really have your leg amputated just because you "want to"? is that legal? (looks like a leg has more rights than an unborn child).
4. birth is the natural and normal termination of a pregnancy, therefore it's not "forced". abortion is the forced removal of a living human being from his mother's womb with the intention to kill him.
5. "rights" are imaginary permissions established by conventions between people and written on paper in the form of laws. they can be determined by the people, or, in some cases, majority may have nothing to do with it. they can change any time. that's why some people choose MORALS (religious or not) over man-made laws, because it gives them a stable set of values after which they can guide their lives and make a difference between right or wrong.
as for the right to life for unborn children, someone asked where this right comes from. good question, it doesn't seem to be written anywhere explicitly. i think it comes from the simple fact that UNBORN HUMANS ARE ALIVE. because if they don't have the right to life, than all of them should be killed in order to remove the benefits of this right that hasn't been granted to them, no matter what their mothers want.

reply from: cracrat

Maybe not for the original decision, but the majority support abortion makes it a whole lot harder to get a ban passed.

reply from: yoda

Apparently, you cannot discern between moral rights and legal rights. They are two different things.
Abortion is legal because of Roe v Wade, not because of any lack of moral rights, but because five old curmudgeons had no concept of moral rights.

reply from: yoda

Maybe not for the original decision, but the majority support abortion makes it a whole lot harder to get a ban passed.
The original decision was the subject. True, no ban has passed, but then no law establishing abortion rights has passed either. It is a stalemate.

reply from: nancyu

Now look whose getting insulting? How full of hate. Abortion is legal because the majority think it's okay, whether it's true or not is irrelevent. And yes I've heard of double homicide such as in the case of Lacy Peterson and her unborn son. Scott was charged in the murder of both because 1) the baby was viable. 2) the baby was found seperate from the mother with duct tape wrapped around his neck, there was no way of knowing whether the child was born alive and then killed.
Morality is not irrelevant. If abolitionists felt morality was irrelevant, slavery would still be legal. Women would still be second class citizens. Gays would not be fighting for their rights if they felt morality was irrelevant!
Secondly, since you have heard of these cases, then you must admit that the unborn already has the right to life via law, since killing it constitutes as murder.
But it still begs the question, why is abortion legal if the fetus has these rights you speak of?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

If the woman's legal rights "end at the placenta", then women should be able to have their PLACENTAS removed, correct?

reply from: churchmouse

Our laws are wishy washy on rights. There are many laws that seem to protect the fetus.
In 2000 the House passed a bill making it illegal to execute a woman on death row that is pregnant.
Full-Coverage Unborn Victim States (25)
(States With Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Children as Victims Throughout the Period of Pre-natal Development)
http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html

Take my state for instance. The law says,
Arizona: The "unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development" is fully covered by the state's murder and manslaughter statutes. For purposes of establishing the level of punishment, a victim who is "an unborn child shall be treated like a minor who is under twelve years of age." Senate Bill 1052, signed into law on April 25, 2005, amending the following sections of the Arizona Revised Statutes: 13-604, 13-604.01, 13-703, 13-1102, 13-1103, 13-1104, 13-1105, 13-4062, 31-412, 41-1604.11 and 41-1604.13.
How about this one.......
Nevada: The killing of an "unborn quick child" is manslaughter. Nev. Rev. Stat. § 200.210 (1997.
New York: Under New York statutory law, the killing of an "unborn child" after twenty-four weeks of pregnancy is homicide. N.Y. Pen. Law § 125.00 (McKinney 1998). But under a separate statutory provision, a "person" that is the victim of a homicide is statutorily defined as a "human being who has been born and is alive." N.Y. Pen. Law § 125.05 (McKinney 1998). See People v. Joseph, 130 Misc. 2d 377, 496 N.Y.S.2d 328 (County Court 1985); In re Gloria C., 124 Misc.2d 313, 476 N.Y.S.2d 991 (N.Y. Fam. Ct. 1984); People v. Vercelletto, 514 N.Y.S.2d 177 (Co. Ct. 1987).

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's a symantic issue. Her rights end at her uterus; it's like saying "ten an under, do you mean nine eight seven, or ten nine eight?" So don't be pedantic. The woman's body didn't make the placenta so obviously she has no right to control it.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Now look whose getting insulting? How full of hate. Abortion is legal because the majority think it's okay, whether it's true or not is irrelevent. And yes I've heard of double homicide such as in the case of Lacy Peterson and her unborn son. Scott was charged in the murder of both because 1) the baby was viable. 2) the baby was found seperate from the mother with duct tape wrapped around his neck, there was no way of knowing whether the child was born alive and then killed.
Morality is not irrelevant. If abolitionists felt morality was irrelevant, slavery would still be legal. Women would still be second class citizens. Gays would not be fighting for their rights if they felt morality was irrelevant!
Secondly, since you have heard of these cases, then you must admit that the unborn already has the right to life via law, since killing it constitutes as murder.
But it still begs the question, why is abortion legal if the fetus has these rights you speak of?
Why was slavery legal? These laws exist; my OPINION is that abortion is still legal because people either don't realise or don't want to admit that the unborn has as much a right to life as the mother.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you are in a car accident I am sure you'd be opposed to politicians determining what the most moral treatment is for your injuries versus yourself and your doctors,
Any treatment that protects your life BUT doesn't involve slaughtering someone else.
Yes I have talked to women dealing with that and I did think several times that I was accidentally pregnant. I had severe insomnia for almost two months until I finally found out I wasn't pregnant. It's absolutely terrifying; it consumed my life. But looking back on it, what I needed was someone to hold me and tell me it was ok and that being pregnant wasn't the end of the world; since I personally thought my future was over and I almost wanted to die. I believed all the pro-choice propaganda that it was impossible to carry a child to term and still go to classes in college.
The basis of denying the woman the chance to kill her child is a moral standpoint? You bet it is. If she stays pregnant, no one forces her to give birth. It just happens. The ONLY thing I want to "force" her to do is to not kill her child.
Unrelated. Getting stitches doesn't KILL SOMEONE.
There is treatment for pregnant women other than abortion. No other known medical procedure treats an injury by killing another completely innocent human being. Secondly, I realise it's my fault for the comparison but pregnancy is not an injury or a disease. It is a state of being. It doesn't need "treatment" unless something goes wrong.
If someone wants their leg cut off as treatment, you'd leave it up to the person and their doctors, not a politician or random person A on the street.
No actually, no sane doctor would allow that. You're dreaming.
Oh my, another young girl belittling pregnancy,
Belittling pregnancy? No, I'm belittling abortion. Get your facts straight.
And proud of it.
"To be proper"? What does that mean? And I'm sorry you hate nature so much.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Are you arguing against me?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lol! Thank you! :3
I'll get in on that as well. I've seen a lot of growth in you since you came to this forum, and you are making very well reasoned arguments. Good for you, dear!
lol thank you too.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

What if they accidentally run out in front of me too late for me to stop? They are still dead, but it's not deliberate.
Comparing cars to women is kind of silly.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Aborting is not an accident. Pregnancy can be. No one accidentally walks into a clinic, accidentally signs the papers and accidentally lays there.

reply from: xnavy

excellent post liberalchiro, what year of college are you in???

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh I'm graduated lol and in the work force :3 I did just graduate this May though.

reply from: churchmouse

Then congrats Liberal. I remember when I graduated from college way back in 1978.....

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Interesting argument...
And then I was told that women's rights end at the uterus. Does anyone her realize that the placenta is INSIDE the uterus, which is INSIDE a woman's body - so who's the boss?
My body, my rights, my choices.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Interesting argument...
And then I was told that women's rights end at the uterus. Does anyone her realize that the placenta is INSIDE the uterus, which is INSIDE a woman's body - so who's the boss?
My body, my rights, my choices.
A penis is inside the vagina, but that doesn't give you the right to chop it off. The baby still OWNS its own body, and the placenta is part of HIS body, not yours. It was made by him, for him.
Its body, its rights, its choices. But yet you deny it these rights, saying they "don't count" when it comes to the baby. Because it is small, undeveloped, whatever. It's still a human being, it's still a baby, it's still a person. That is what people look like when they are only 6 weeks old. It's still a person.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Wow! :3 Yeah, it's a relief for sure.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There's a big difference between allowing a baby to be in your body for nine months and killing a human being.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

But it IS a human being, and it is alive, and it does die, so if you "don't see it" as killing a human being, you're deluding yourself. Secondly, we are not "God" or nature. We are humans, and we should not be killing each other.

reply from: churchmouse

"A penis is inside the vagina, but that doesn't give you the right to chop it off. The baby still OWNS its own body, and the placenta is part of HIS body, not yours. It was made by him, for him.
Its body, its rights, its choices. But yet you deny it these rights, saying they "don't count" when it comes to the baby. Because it is small, undeveloped, whatever. It's still a human being, it's still a baby, it's still a person. That is what people look like when they are only 6 weeks old. It's still a person."
Boy Liberal I am impressed.

reply from: CharlesD

Last time I checked, that's generally how it works. If you allow the first, you are by your behavior allowing the other, unless you don't understand basic biology. That's the choice. You can choose whether or not to have sex, but if you do, you have to accept the consequences of your chosen behavior.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Thank you Church. I've changed a lot of my opinions, and it's been through the kindness of (most) the people here.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Last time I checked, that's generally how it works. If you allow the first, you are by your behavior allowing the other, unless you don't understand basic biology. That's the choice. You can choose whether or not to have sex, but if you do, you have to accept the consequences of your chosen behavior.
Actually I completely disagree. That's like saying allowing yourself to be driven around town is allowing yourself to be killed in the crash. It's like saying that allowing yourself to wear a miniskirt is allowing yourself to be raped. Allowing a penis is NOT allowing pregnancy. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
That doesn't give you the right to kill it, that just makes it an accident.

reply from: churchmouse

Well I tell ya.......it takes a lot of guts to admit when your position is wrong. But i can tell by what you say here......you are RIGHT ON THE MARK AND WILL BE A GREAT WITNESS FOR THE UNBORN.
And as your passsion grows you will even get more upset with those that just kick the unborn to the curb.
We need young people out on the lines speaking out against abortion. I am so excited for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

reply from: churchmouse

Well you are right about a lot I am sure, but I wouldnt say you are right about everything. LOL
I am not either at 52 years old.
I used to be a staunch pro-choicer. I remember debating with my born again uncle and we ended up at eachothers throats. I loved him dearly but would end up leaving....both of us in tears. He tried to point out scripture where God considers the unborn people, his creation. I wouldnt listen. I hurt him terribly. I did come around before he died for him to see the passion I feel today about the Lord and the unborn child. I admitted that I was wrong and asked for forgiveness. And forgiveness was mine.
You said you came around......do you mind telling what the issue was about?
I also changed my tune about stem cell.

reply from: 4given

How so? Sure, many can imagine what it may be like, but your uterus does not make you an authority nor qualify you to make blanket statements about any scenario. If you have a personal experience (an actual one), your hypotheticals may evoke sympathy, otherwise you have nothing substantial to offer. Other than your pro-abort justification- where you disrespect the actual victims of rape as a convenience argument, just as you will to the victims of incest and a mother's health. Truth is, you don't care what happens to these women post abortion. Your only concern is that they can kill if they so desire to. Right?

reply from: churchmouse

You were not alone a lot of people cant get past this one. Rape is a violent act thats for sure.
But the true pro-life poisiton would be that two wrongs do not make a right....the act of killing the child of rape is just as brutal. Its tough. But the child of rape has just as much right to life as the mothers child who was not conceived of rape. And if you lined ten kids up and told someone to pick the kid out whose mother was raped....I doubt anyone could do it.

reply from: sweet

GOOD point. sad but true.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well I tell ya.......it takes a lot of guts to admit when your position is wrong. But i can tell by what you say here......you are RIGHT ON THE MARK AND WILL BE A GREAT WITNESS FOR THE UNBORN.
And as your passsion grows you will even get more upset with those that just kick the unborn to the curb.
We need young people out on the lines speaking out against abortion. I am so excited for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you again! I think my resolve will grow with time, yes.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Men can imagine a rape. Men can BE raped. You're just not very imaginative.

reply from: churchmouse

Well you condone abortion dont you? If its bad like I said.........then why on earth would you condone something you think is wrong?
We are obssessed with it because we dont just think its wrong, we know in our hearts it is wrong. And we stand up for what we think is wrong. If no one had stood up for the slaves in the South, there would still be slavery. If Rosa Parks had not done what she did........etc. Should good people remain quiet over the evil they see in the world?
I dream of a day when the unborn wont be legally ripped apart in the womb. I dream about a day when people like you have a change of heart and finally see the light.

reply from: CharlesD

You know, most of the time I don't agree with your little one liners, but that doesn't mean that some of them don't make me laugh.

reply from: churchmouse

Well Charles if you think vexing is funny then gee I dont know what to say. He is pro abortion and loves to mock Christians. I dont think that is funny.
I might have been wrong about you..................?

reply from: churchmouse

I think you can joke about a lot of things Concerned....but not God and not abortion.
Now would you laugh if I made a crack obout transgendered people? Oh no then I would be called out for all sorts of reasons. You ahted when I called you a humanist and you had a fit.
Look......at least be honest. You also love to tell people they are wrong, or you wouldnt be here. We are all presenting our opinions. Have you always responded in kindness? And so it seems we are all guilty of this one arent we?
It is my duty as a Christian to tell people about Christ. You would know that if you understood Christianity.You would know what the Great commission says. You have the right to make comments, mock, question and challenge anyone you wish.....and you have and you do. But dont tell me what I can say and what i cant. I do not do that to you.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Vexing is neither pro-abortion nor is she male. She is pro-life and female. Yes, she doesn't like christianity but she has a right to that opinion.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Please do not forsake reason (and conscience) based on emotional responses to some prolifers. I think you're a bigger person than that.
Well I went through a "neither" phase as well, and it was indeed because of hateful posters on this board. I didn't want to (and still don't) want to assosciate myself with them.

reply from: scopia1982

I knew Vex was female and an athiests. She certainly does not come off as prolife, regardless of her persuasion she is a very cold person. I dont hate Atheists dont persecute them, yet she does the same who profess religious beliefs different than hers which is no belief. She has a right to her opinion, but she does not have a right to attack those who dont share her worldview. I call it yuppie mentality " IF I believe it so should everybody else."

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I knew Vex was female and an athiests.
Well whoever called her MALE didn't.
Why should her demeanor matter? She's still in a questioning phase, give her a break.
She only persecutes them when they try to use their religion to force their ethics upon her, and I fight that same battle. Christianity is MY religion, but not hers, so I would never make a law she had to follow based off of MY religion.

reply from: sweet

Vexing is neither pro-abortion nor is she male. She is pro-life and female. Yes, she doesn't like christianity but she has a right to that opinion.vexy is NOT female...he said he was born both and changed to female.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That makes her female. Whether you are born female or become female, you are still female in the end.

reply from: jujujellybean

very good original post, Liberalchiro!
And BTW, the majority of americans do NOT believe that it should be legal. Read this:
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2003/NRL01/oppo.html

reply from: RiverMoonLady

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/Abortion.aspx

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/09/18/new-york-timescbs-poll-shows-consistent-support-legal-abortion-rights

Just a few polls that do NOT agree.

reply from: CharlesD

I should have worded myself a bit better. Most of the time I am pretty darn offended by what is posted by Vexing, but for some reason the wording of that particular post just seemed humorous. Yes, it was meant to mock, but it struck me also as an interesting commentary on our English language and the words we use. I heard a Christian comedian use almost the exact same joke, but not in a mocking manner, and it brought that to mind. Probably not what was intended by the post though.
Part of the problem there is that the languages the Bible was written in have different words that all translate into English as "heart." We use the same word for our blood pumping organ and for the center of our emotional being, and that's why that comment made me laugh. I was a hopeless English major.
Now with that said, I don't find the person we are talking about to be all that funny lately with a lot of the caustic one liners I've been reading, but for some reason, perhaps misguided, I found something of a small amount of sarcastic humor in that statement. That doesn't diminish my faith or my commitment to the unborn. I hope that clears some things up. Sorry for giving the wrong impression.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If the family cannot pay, that is what adoption is for, not murder.
If the woman is an addict, that is what adoption is for, not murder.
Neither of those children deserve to die for any reason at all.

reply from: churchmouse

Vexing is pro-choice and that is the same as pro-abortion.
And honey, I have the right to my opinion. Vexing attacks Christians and Christianity because Vexing has a beef with God. So its taken out on the Christians here.
LOL You should go back a few months through the posts where vexing was being so kind. ROFLMAO
When vexing told me to take a pipe and injure, kill myself.
And you love giving it right back Liberal.....don't kid yourself.
And so can I.....but you asked me at one time to lay off comments about Humanists. I identified what a humanist was to the letter. It offended you......so you went on the attack.
And what lie would that be?
And you have that right as I did when I showed and proved with reliable sources what a humanist was. You tell me I cant state something as fact but when you state something.... its fact. My sources are all biased and wrong.......yours all factual and right. LOL
Born with both and that I believe is fact?

Can a male conceive a child Liberal? Who has the capabilities of bearing children?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Vexing is pro-choice and that is the same as pro-abortion.No she is not. You clearly haven't been paying ANY attention. She said she was pro-life and has since altered her stance (very understandably) to "none of my business" mostly due (I feel) to the horrible treatment she has received from other posters on here.
I totally agree and never said she didn't attack christians. She does; and that bothers me as it bothers you.
LOL You should go back a few months through the posts where vexing was being so kind. ROFLMAO
Huh?
I don't want to assosciate with pro-choicers either; THEIR abuse is what originally drove me towards pro-life. However, I discovered that you people can be just as cold-hearted.
Of course I do; but I try not to and I should think my recent behavior (if you bother paying attention which you have already proven you do not) would prove such.
Can a male conceive a child Liberal?
A woman cannot do so by herself. Does that mean a woman who can't conceive is not female? Or that a lesbian is not female? Or that a woman who stays abstinent her whole life is not female?
It lies on BOTH genders; they play an equal role in conception.

reply from: scopia1982

ok, hopefully vexing wont get nasty with me, but what is this about her being male or female or both? Was vexing born with both sets of sex organs? turners syndrome?

reply from: scopia1982

How about we talk about YOUR genitals in public.
Would you like that?
Yeah?
You brought this information on to a public board, not me. And I am 100% female, with all of my reproductive parts, which might soon be gone, and XX chromosomes. If you didnt want people to know about it, than you should not have posted anythig about it on here. What bits and pieces I got , I would say it sounds like Turner syndrome, since you had said something about chromosomes before.

reply from: scopia1982

How's your minge today?
Is it sloppy? Stinky? Dry? Itchy?
Are you sure you're 100% female?
Have you been karyotype tested?
Don't be too sure until you have...
My minge is quite fine actually, No infection, odor or dryness. Not sloppy because I keep it trimmed and clean. Yes I am sure that I am 100% female, I have had 2 children. (One dead one living). Never had the need to be karotyped tested, by the way I look and the way my body functions, I am a female no doubt about it. If you want to get nasty .... I can play that until my patience runs out with you. You bright this on to the board, I just inquired to the nature of you medical condition, which YOU put on a public forum. You have no sense of civiliaty and sound very bitter. I hope one day you get the mental health care you so desperatly need.

reply from: yoda

"Cast not your pearls before swine"........

reply from: scopia1982

Vex, I think I got the story. You claim to be a transgendered woman, who claims to have been born a male am I right? Ok so you are not a hermphadite or have Turner Syndrome. You have what is called Gender Identity Disorder and sometimes the treatment for that is sexual reassignment surgery. But in order to get that you have to go through intense psyco threapy and living for so long as a the opposite sex. I assume you know this already.
[

reply from: scopia1982

vexy is NOT female...he said he was born both and changed to female.
I wish I had looked this far down. Vex had a sex change operation.I had vex on ignore, so I only got bits and pieces of the story.

reply from: churchmouse

Sterile women are women. They have the anatomy it takes to have children. I am not anti-woman at all.
Vexing is pro-choice. Ihave never seen one post defending the unborn. You need to read the vile, things Vexing has written.
And vexing attacks Christians.
Not all pro-choicers are like Vexing. I cant stand Rivers position but she does not act like vexing in any way.
Tell me Liberal how I am cold hearted?
Did you forget just two days ago you told me to go "rot." LOL
We talked about your situation for months and you loved it. You made it all about YOUR BUSINESS in almost every thread.
And scopia vexing loves to talk about this.......She was born a he and still has male organs. YOU HAVE MENTIONED YOU HAD MALE PARTS AND YOU KNOW IT.
We talked about your surgery and how much it would cost. You are lying if you deny it.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Vexing is pro-choice. Ihave never seen one post defending the unborn.
Then you are blind. She made several right when she first changed over; many of them phrased as such: "If I'm fighting against the discrimination of transsexuals and homosexuals and the glbt communitty, who am I do discriminate against the unborn?"
You need to read the vile things YOU have written.
I never denied that. I am in fact as upset about her hatred towards them as I am about YOUR (seeming) hatred for HER.
Not all pro-choicers are like Vexing.
No, but a lot of them are. Take it from me.
I never said all pro-choicers acted that way, simply that the abuse I DID face drove me away from them.
Your treatment of Vexing. Some of your other posts on here are just as hateful. I don't know any off the top of my head but the next time one pops up, I'll be sure to make a clear notation, got it?
Oh rite lol! That was you. Please, continue rotting. I forget exactly what you said but it was absolutely abhorrent; I don't normally insult people but you deserved it.

reply from: churchmouse

LIBERAL.........
Put up or shut up. Show me what I have said that is vile?
ROFLAMO
Don't stay up all night lookin, you will be pissed off and tired in the morning if you do.
This statement does not cut it.
Ahhhhhhh ya can't think? Like I said, put up Liberal or shut up. Provide evidence.
You accused me.......now provide the evidence.
Ahhhhhhh little Miss dont know who she is talking about or to. LOL
Oh I am sure you forgot, you dont seem to retain much of anything.
You do insult, you just proved it.
LOL
You look like a fool on this one honey.

reply from: churchmouse

LIBERAL.......AND THE EVIDENCE IS?

reply from: abeorshun

This is smeantics at best
check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrFo72lkRSQ

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's very weird and doesn't make much sense; plus it's really difficult to understand the singer. Low quality, no point. Of course making abortion illegal would increase the number of back street abortions if you did it all at once. Changing a law does not change hearts. We need to get regulation out there first and when women realise how many clinics closed just from being regulated and being held to a high standard, they're going to realise how unsafe abortion really is.
You get REAL counselors in those clinics who don't want the woman to be "all alone" in the decision making. Counselors right now leave it all up to the woman which is great, but sometimes people need actual help. I never would have left my fiancee if my parents hadn't demanded I fly down to florida; I was too scared and defiant to do it myself and I needed intervention. If someone is going to kill their baby, don't you think intervention is needed? I don't want these counselors to force these women not to abort, but I do think the counselors need to more aggressively investigate why the woman is aborting. She may lie at first because she's scared, and that's just the formula for a regretted abortion. I almost think these counselors need to be actual psychologists so they can read the signals the woman is giving instead of assuming everything is a-ok.
Anyway I don't feel like going into my whole program again, so I'll just stop there for now.

reply from: yoda

And your evidence for this assertion would be.......????
"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless".
-Dr. Martin Luther King
Babies are dying NOW...... they need PROTECTION NOW.....
Justice DELAYED is justice DENIED..........

reply from: BossMomma

As I said, I've never mentioned my genitals; so anything you read is hearsay, unless you've seen what is in my pants.
Actually you have mentioned that you had testicles and still have a penis.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yoda, it seems like pure common sense to me that if women are aborting now, and "will abort even if abortion is illegal" that, if abortion were suddenly illegal, all of those women who are legally aborting will then be illegally aborting, and that number will be higher than the rate of illegal abortions right now - since why bother with an illegal one? It's not against the law.

reply from: scopia1982

I am not naive to think that abortions will just stop because its now illegal. But it will create a sense of accountablity. I think that the abortion providers, those who work for them and those who help procure them should be top priorty when it comes to prosecution, not the woman.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well that's why I feel a first good step would be regulation. It will really open the doubters' eyes and let them see that wow, abortion clinics are really foul places. Most people are moderates. You show them some definitive proof and they'll side with you. If by simply holding these clinics up to the same standards as any other medical practice you get thousands to close, you're going to show the majority of undecided Americans what a crock the abortion industry really is.

reply from: scopia1982

Liberal go onto NARALS website and view some of the various state profiles. Two things they call "anti choice " legislation is regulation of abortion clinics. They are deemed to be "burdensome and unmedically nessecary". The other is restricted that abortions can only be done by liscensed physcians, it "disqualifys other qualified healthcare professionals" from providing reproductive services. You would think if choicers advocated for safe legal abotion they would be glad to have these regulations in place.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You have already told me about that site. Just because the clinics don't want to be regulated doesn't mean they shouldn't be regulated! Of COURSE they don't want to be regulated. But it's the government's job to regulate if the business won't.

reply from: scopia1982

I thought I had, but I wasnt sure so I thought I would risk reapeating myself. Sadly the proabortion lobby had lined the pockets of politicians for so long . The government lacks the political will to do anything to "infringe" on the rights of abortion clinics.

reply from: yoda

Sorry, that makes no sense to me at all. Most women are law abiding, and would not abort if it were against the law. The few that have always sought out illegal abortions would be a tiny fraction of what we have now. I've talked to counselors who say that 100% of the women they talk to say that if abortion had been illegal at the time of their abortion they would not have gone through with it. It would be nice if you could factor in women who never have counseling, but so far as I know no one has taken a poll on that.
But I still say MOST women are law-abiding, don't you agree?

reply from: churchmouse

Now ya start to show the humanist side of ya. LOL
Liberal cant answer the darn question so you have to jump in.
LIBERAL WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE? You running honey?
AND THE EVIDENCE LIBERAL?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Sorry, that makes no sense to me at all. Most women are law abiding, and would not abort if it were against the law. The few that have always sought out illegal abortions would be a tiny fraction of what we have now. I've talked to counselors who say that 100% of the women they talk to say that if abortion had been illegal at the time of their abortion they would not have gone through with it. It would be nice if you could factor in women who never have counseling, but so far as I know no one has taken a poll on that.
But I still say MOST women are law-abiding, don't you agree?
There were illegal abortions before roe v wade. There WILL BE illegal abortions after roe v wade. They are very few illegal abortions right now because abortion is legal and desperate women who WOULD get an illegal abortion no matter what don't have to do it illegally. So it makes perfect sense. I'm not saying there will be millions of them; just that their rates will logically be higher than they are at the moment.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Churchmouse, I have no idea what you are blithering about.

reply from: yoda

And yet you provide no rationale or documentation for that assertion.
No one can predict the number with any authority, but I'm almost certain that it will be much less than the number of legal abortions that happen now.
And that means a lot fewer babies being intentionally and electively killed.
To me, stopping a lot of intentional killings takes a higher priority than stopping many fewer accidental killing of people who are having illegal abortions in order to kill a baby. That's just me, I guess?

reply from: yoda

It appears she is referring to this:
"Put up or shut up. Show me what I have said that is vile? "

reply from: CharlesD

Yes, I do think that there will be a few illegal ones just like there were before Roe. I'm not arguing that point with you. The flip side is that just because people are going to do it doesn't make it acceptable or right, but I don't think you're arguing that either.
The thing we have to consider is the changing attitude from 1973 until now. We have a lot more scientific information available to us now, not to mention 35 years of efforts from pro life groups to educate people on the value of the unborn. I think there will still be illegal abortions after Roe, but that the numbers might not be as high as before Roe. We were coming out of the free love period of the 60s then. Times are different now. I think a lot of women are law abiding and just won't mess with going through other means.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well yes, exactly. We are a different nation than we were before then and I have a fear that radical feminists are so obsessed with abortion being one of the front-line arguments of female-rights that there will be a violent backlash if abortion is suddenly illegalized.
Also, I'd like to thank you for a very pleasant discussion thusfar!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It appears she is referring to this:
"Put up or shut up. Show me what I have said that is vile? "
She? Kay. She actually quoted herself saying something vile in the exact same post I replied to her in, so she already has her answer. For some reason I was under the impression she was male; I think it was the aggressiveness of her posts and her apparent hatred for women in general.

reply from: churchmouse

Liberal provide evidence and examples of what you accuse me of.
Quit running honey.
Have Concerned help you.......he is such a good humanist, he cares so much for humanity and humans in this humanistic world. LOL

reply from: yoda

What a lame reason to oppose the repeal of Roe.
Let the feminazis scream their heads off! It will be worth it to save at least a few babies.......

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't have to because you provided your own evidence (you quoted yourself saying something terrible) back in the original post we talk of. Remember? By the way, what you say now and your constant accusations are not exactly kind either, yet this is what you claim to be.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

What a lame reason to oppose the repeal of Roe.
Let the feminazis scream their heads off! It will be worth it to save at least a few babies.......
I don't oppose the repeal of Roe, I oppose a SUDDEN appeal of Roe.
The backlash I speak of could set abortion in STONE as one of America's "rights", that's what I'm afraid of. Think about the Speakeasy. Outlawing alcohol not only failed, but it failed so badly that alcohol is now entrenched in our society. It was actually very near being illegalized for good, but the sudden revocation of the right to drink backlashed so violently that now there is no hope in the near future of ever illegalizing it - heck, we can barely moderate it, much less make it illegal.
This is why I constantly say you can change a law but that doesn't change a heart. I do want the hearts to change, and you can change hearts!! But sometimes people take up a cause for the wrong reasons... And I'm afraid that instantly illegalizing abortion would turn the Moderate pro-choicers and the undecideds into extremists because of the perceived violation of women's rights. You have to approach this issue delicately. Being pro-choice was something I was rabidly feminist about. Yet even I have changed.

reply from: CharlesD

Overturning Roe would not immediately ban abortion on a federal level, unless certain language is included in the majority opinion. It would most likely put it in the hands of the states.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't think Yoda would be for it unless that "certain language" was included. He wants and instant ban on abortion 100%, and if you don't believe in that, you're not pro-life according to him!
I could see handing it down to the states. Except that I'd like to see some federal regulations on abortion, maybe under the FDA.

reply from: scopia1982

"I could see handing it down to the states. Except that I'd like to see some federal regulations on abortion, maybe under the FDA."
I think it will go the way of the states. But you will never see regulations on abortion, because the proabortion lobby has lined the pockets of the polticians and if Obama gets in what slim chance of any type of restriction or regulation is going bye bye. BTW, the FDA regulated food and pharmaceuticals, not medical facilites. That would fall under the jurisdiction of the department of health of the various states.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't believe Obama is as pro-abortion as everyone thinks he is. I figured the FDA made more sense than the CDC. We don't have any other federal Health departments? Aren't there ANY national health care standards that all hospitals have to stand up to? Clearly state-wide jurisdictions are not working. Abortion clinics should at LEAST have to follow state standards for medical facilities and from what I've heard, they don't. I was pro-regulation even when I was still pro-choice and was quite shocked to learn that the clinics are not held to those same high standards. Hell, I think a tattoo parlor has more stringent rules to follow...

reply from: scopia1982

"Abortion clinics should at LEAST have to follow state standards for medical facilities and from what I've heard, they don't. I was pro-regulation even when I was still pro-choice and was quite shocked to learn that the clinics are not held to those same high standards. Hell, I think a tattoo parlor has more stringent rules to follow..."
Well according to NARAL any attempt to regulate abortion clinics are "burdensome" on access to "reproductive" healthcare. My vet is subjected to more regulation than an abortion clinic. Hell far, all I have to do is rent a building, buy the equipment , and hang up the sign and I could open up my very own abortion clinic.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Stating it over and over again doesn't make it any more correct. It's almost like you feel there's no hope for the pro-life movement at all. "Nope! Don't bother, the whole system is corrupt, you'll never achieve anything!"

reply from: scopia1982

If you dont like what I have to say put me on ignore. The whole abortion industry is corrupt and since it has more money its able to line the pockets of politicians. That is a major obstacle for us to overcome. If Obama gets elected it will be even more difficult. What is going to keep the prolife movment from achieving anything is ourselves. It seems we spend more time fighting each other than the abortion supporters. We nit pick over religious differences, have some who condemn repentant woman for being babykillers or whores, you get where I am going? Maybe if we would quit attacking each other and focus on the issue, maybe we will finally get somewhere.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well I feel like you're defeating the entire pro-life argument. I'm not denying that the abortion industry is corrupt; but that ALSO doesn't mean there aren't good people among them. There is simply a lot of deception going on, and even good people can be fooled. I'd sure like it if we could stop attacking each other, but having me put you on ignore would defeat that purpose don't you think? You seem really down about this whole thing and I'm trying to show you that I'm not.
I just don't understand and never will understand pessimists. If you're going to be PRO something, be positive about it!! Pro doesn't mean "sad" or "angry" or "jaded". Being pro-life and being anti-abortion are two different things. If you're anti, you're negative. If you're pro, you're positive. It's all in your mindset.

reply from: yoda

That's like saying "I don't oppose the outlawing of murder, I oppose a SUDDEN outlawing of murder". If it's wrong now, it ought to be stopped NOW.
Martin Luther King said it much better:
"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless".
Your fears of a backlash do not impress me. Doing the right thing need not wait for "hearts to change", it needs to be done now.

reply from: yoda

Actually, he's a lot MORE pro-abortion than most people think he is. He's FOR partial birth abortion, he's FOR FOCA, and he's AGAINST saving the lives of "born alive infants"...... you can't get much more extreme than that.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, like "proabortion".

reply from: 4given

Actually, he's a lot MORE pro-abortion than most people think he is. He's FOR partial birth abortion, he's FOR FOCA, and he's AGAINST saving the lives of "born alive infants"...... you can't get much more extreme than that.
Haha! Because those that entertain the premise of his good will in the White house actually don't "think" his abortion stance matters, if they "think" at all.
He is the most extreme person we have encountered in regard to his pro-abortion views. And I have some loony left borthead acquaintances and family for that matter..

reply from: churchmouse

Just what I figured.......you are not credible you are a bunch of hot air.
You accuse someone of something, something that you do yourelf and then you run, not just this thread but everywhere. And if you cant take the heat of what someone says, you run and put them on ignore until you think the coast is clear and people forget. LOL
I do not think you are as pro-life anti abortion as you want people to believe. This statement proves it.
Obama not pro-abortion? What do you not get Liberal????????? Look at his voting record for crying out loud. Did you watch the debate at Saddleback? Did you see him squirm in his seat?
if you think Obama is not pro-abortion then you dont know what pro-life is.
And yoda is right........scopia too.
The truth is the truth and that never changes. Abortion kills. Abortion is premeditated murder, however hard that is to take. God forgives but sometimes self forgiveness is harder and takes longer.
I cant jump up and down while I am praying and marching at abortion mills sorry Liberal.
This is an ungodly place where ungodly people work. It is a place where killing takes place.
Let me ask you this.......have you ever worked or done anything for this cause? Have you ever picketed or marched at a pro-life event? Ever prayed and talked to woman at these events that have had abortions?
As I said the truth is the truth and there are people who dont like the truth and do not want to face it. There are websites that PRETEND TO SPEAK THE TRUTH......but tie the hand of pro-life and wont let them speak.
Go to Beliefnet to the abortion thread........and try to use the word, pro-abortion.
You will be warned if not banned. No free speech.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I recall you quoting your original statement that inspired my subsequent desire for you to rot, and I now can't find it anywhere. Don't worry, I'll pick a newer offensive statement you've made.
Let's quote YOU a little bit, shall we?
Yet BEFORE making that statement, in the same thread, you say all of the following:
We will continue on, since you repeat your supposed claim to perfection in that same thread:
In the SAME POST:
Let's list all of the names you called people just in one thread, a thread you at least twice claimed you didn't like name-calling in!
vile
sad
pathetic
hateful
lower forms of humanity
idiotic
without morals/values
baby killers
sick
I'm not even throwing in pro-abort. Though you apparently "explain" yourself:
By the way, I've never claimed that I don't say offensive things. I do. I get angry. But I try not to say those things.
So that's all just from ONE THREAD, a thread in which you claim you don't "name call" at all! Gee, who's the hypocrite now? I never claimed I don't insult, just that I wish I had fewer opportunities to do so. I seriously don't want to insult anyone, but when I get angry that's what I do; and maybe you do to, eh? So why don't you just admit that? You name call too when you get angry. And that's fine, we all probably do it every now and then. But our goal should be to STOP it when it does happen, and to prevent it from happening in the future. So if someone says "Hey, Lib, I think you're getting a little too offensive there", or "Church, that comment was completely unnecessary", maybe we both (ALL of us) need to take a step back, take a breath, and relax?
By the way, I've watched two presidential debates with Obama, and in both he seemed calm, collected and stayed on topic much better than McCain, who only seemed capable of accenting how old he is.

reply from: yoda

"Baby killer" is an occupation or a past action, it's not "name-calling".

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yoda, I could say that "blabbering idiot" is a profession if I wanted to (lol politicians), that doesn't make it true. The DOCTOR may be a "baby killer" but it's still a rude way to say it, and that's the point. Not all pro-choicers are abortion doctors so calling them all baby killers is inherently incorrect. Personally, anything that suits your rhetoric isn't an "insult" whether it's true or not. Ask any random assortment of people on the street (without mentioning abortion) if calling someone a "baby killer" is insulting, and I'd bet 90% of them would say yes.
This isn't about being "right", Yoda. It's about being polite, and I know you don't care about that. You've made that abundantly clear.

reply from: yoda

I'm sure it is for you, and at one time I looked at it that way. I moderated an abortion forum once, and I tried to get everyone to be polite. My sig said "It's more important to be civil than to be right". Of course, I was attacked without mercy for saying that.....
But since then I have realized that being civil/polite is NOT more important than being right about abortion, or rather DOING THE RIGHT THING about abortion.
Since I long ago eliminated the moral distinction between born and unborn, when I think of the daily slaughter of innocent babies, it's like I had heard that school kids were being lined up all across the country and shot. So, if you read somewhere that school kids were being lined up and shot, could you discuss that with people who supported and promote that slaughter, and remain civil and polite with them all the time?
Well if you can, then you and I are very, very different people.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm not even talking about being right about abortion. I'm talking about being right about what offends people. Anything can be an insult, and respecting that takes tenacity and strength. I sure as hell ain't perfect at it but I really want to try my best.
I could have a civil discussion with anyone so long as they didn't insult me first. Now, if they happen to be someone I dislike, I'm much more likely to take an innocent comment the wrong way and go completely ballistic on them, heh. But I really do try to be polite. I think it's a human right to be respected, just as it is a human right to live. No one deserves to be insulted for their beliefs on abortion, no matter what those beliefs are.
Remember, I finally began opening my eyes to pro-lifers because I was sick of the insults they were facing from pro-choicers. Why do you think my feelings on that are going to be any different now that I am pro-life? Those feelings haven't changed at all; I still think it's shameful to attack people outright just because they are pro-life or pro-choice.

reply from: scopia1982

You are entitled to you opinion, but that is not what I am doing at all. I am sorry but I cannot see how a "good" person could go to "work" everyday and participate in the slaughter of innocents. Everyone who works in a abortion clinic is guilty of particpating in murder. From the receptionists to the actual abortionist.Every single one of them is an accessory to murder. They are evil and I will call an abortionists what he is a murderer. I will call any other clinic workers an accessory to murder. You do have some that work there and when they find out the bloody truth and quit. But those who stay for years, even decades have no sense of humanity or compassion. But I will pray for them, because that is all I know to do. They are beyond human help.

reply from: churchmouse

You think the word vile, hateful, pathetic, pro-abort are bad? Comparible to saying to someone go rot? LOL
Well of course honey you would think pro-abort is bad.....you really are pro-choice and you side with the people that performs the killing.
Yes you do, you said you were above that.
Oh please.
The fact that you side with Obama........says it all my dear, it says it all about YOUR REAL POSITON. HE VOTED FOR INFANTICIDE LIBERAL. Go look up the term......

reply from: BossMomma

So you'd be calling a good portion of your fellow pro-lifers baby killers then? Many of them have aborted.

reply from: scopia1982

So you'd be calling a good portion of your fellow pro-lifers baby killers then? Many of them have aborted.
I would use the term murderer, but I would reserve that to the abortionist who does the actual procedure. All of those that work there I would consider accessories to murder.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You are entitled to you opinion, but that is not what I am doing at all. I am sorry but I cannot see how a "good" person could go to "work" everyday and participate in the slaughter of innocents.
You can't see it, but they do it anyway. And they are good people, if you've ever listened to one of them!
Well just so long as you admit to name-calling, unlike Churchmouse.
Being pro-choice does involve a sense of humanity; I can't say I know how the doctors feel but a lot of the pro-choice women I know care deeply for one another and consider abortion to be a compassionate act in some cases, or a necessary evil in others. They are not beyond help; because sometimes even after decades these people change.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I am not comparing them, I am taking them at face value. At face value, yes, they are certainly bad. Comparing them to rotting, yes, I'd actually say they are equally offensive to be honest.
Yes you do, you said you were above that.
I said I TRY to be above it; but that doesn't make me perfect. At one particular moment on a thread I did resist the urges to be offensive and so at that moment I was "above" it, but I'm not always that controlled.

reply from: BossMomma

So you'd be calling a good portion of your fellow pro-lifers baby killers then? Many of them have aborted.
I would use the term murderer, but I would reserve that to the abortionist who does the actual procedure. All of those that work there I would consider accessories to murder.
And so women who abort and later regret it are what? Are they not accessory as well as they brought their babies like lambs to the slaughter? Not everyone was forced to do so as you claim you were.

reply from: scopia1982

So you'd be calling a good portion of your fellow pro-lifers baby killers then? Many of them have aborted.
I would use the term murderer, but I would reserve that to the abortionist who does the actual procedure. All of those that work there I would consider accessories to murder.
And so women who abort and later regret it are what? Are they not accessory as well as they brought their babies like lambs to the slaughter? Not everyone was forced to do so as you claim you were.
No some are not, but many who go into that clinic may feel they have no other alternative, they may be afraid of loosing their job or their relationship. Every woman that my husband and I have knew in real life that had abortions, felt it was their only "choice". If they had more support or know of options or other resources they would not have done it. I dont believe in prosecuting the woman, but the ones who do it daily, profit off it are the monsters and need to be held accountable.

reply from: BossMomma

No some are not, but many who go into that clinic may feel they have no other alternative, they may be afraid of loosing their job or their relationship. Every woman that my husband and I have knew in real life that had abortions, felt it was their only "choice". If they had more support or know of options or other resources they would not have done it. I dont believe in prosecuting the woman, but the ones who do it daily, profit off it are the monsters and need to be held accountable.
Many women knew their options, abortion just seemed the best one at the time. Birth and adoption are as timeless as abortion and to claim that women don't know about them is almost insulting. Women on this board had abortions and later decided it was a bad experience, nothing wrong with that, but an aborted fetus is an aborted fetus whether it's mother regrets it or not therefore I'll repeat my question. If abortion providers are murderer's and abortion clinic staff are accessory to murder, what does that make the woman who chooses abortion?

reply from: scopia1982

"If abortion providers are murderer's and abortion clinic staff are accessory to murder, what does that make the woman who chooses abortion?"
Most I would call scared or misguided. The only ones IMHO that are just as guilty as the abortionist are those that use it as a power play. These abortionists profit off of suffering and death and that makes them monsters.

reply from: BossMomma

Define using abortion as a power play, if you would please.

reply from: churchmouse

Good people? You mean the ones that do the actual killing Liberal. Hitler was good too wasn't he?
liberal said,
Honey honey........abortionists are murderers, so are the nurses that assist and so is the woman that gets up on the table. They are all murderers. I have no problem saying this.
LMAO
Only you would say this. They are deluded then.
A sense of humanity? Really, how?
I aborted, I murdered my child, although at the time, I certainly did not think of it that way. Nothing I can do will change what I did. When I became a Christian I asked forgiveness and was washed clean. I have walked with Christ ever since...that was 9-11-01.
Yes they do profit......but they would have no patients without the women that walk in would they?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Churchmouse, your "justifications" for your name-calling are as transparent as pro-choice "justifications" for abortion.

reply from: churchmouse

You just never can answer any questions can you my dear?
If anyone is pro-choice its you....you make excuses for the abortionists and the woman.
And for your information Liberal, Carolemarie cant even come to grips with the fact that abortion is murder, that those that did in fact kill were murderers.
First priority must go to the one being unjustly killed sorry.
Its so sad you just dont get it.

reply from: scopia1982

A woman who uses or threatens abortion as a form of emotional blackmail. A good example would be a woman who uses as a form of revenge toward the father of a child for whatever her motivations may be. She doesnt want the child, but he does and he is willing to take the child upon birth, can provide for the childs needs and she can her her life back as it was before the pregnancy. Despite his crying, begging and pleading, she does it anyway. She has just shown him who has the upper hand when it regards the life of their child. She has exerted her power over him and their unborn child.

reply from: scopia1982

"Yes they do profit......but they would have no patients without the women that walk in would they?"
If there was no clinic for them to go too, abortions would be few and far between.

reply from: BossMomma

A woman who uses or threatens abortion as a form of emotional blackmail. A good example would be a woman who uses as a form of revenge toward the father of a child for whatever her motivations may be. She doesnt want the child, but he does and he is willing to take the child upon birth, can provide for the childs needs and she can her her life back as it was before the pregnancy. Despite his crying, begging and pleading, she does it anyway. She has just shown him who has the upper hand when it regards the life of their child. She has exerted her power over him and their unborn child.
Yes that's a good example, it's no different than a man battering a pregnant woman until she looses her pregnancy out of revenge and it's unfortunant that it happens. I guess we agree that such people are disgusting murderous individuals.

reply from: scopia1982

Yes Boss we do. Those people IMO are beyond human help, all that one can do is pray for them and hope for divine intervention.

reply from: churchmouse

Most do know and have problems coping with what they do. They suffer silently as well.
The fact is there is a stigma associated with doctors that perform abortions.
"Political advocates of legal abortion fiercely claim that abortion is just an ordinary medical procedure and that those who participate in it are merely practicing regular medicine. Yet many actual abortion providers say that life in the abortion industry is not like life in the rest of the medical community. And the distinctions are seldom, if ever, positive." Mark Crutcher
Charlotte Taft, the former administrator of a Dallas abortion clinic, says, "Abortion providers are isolated. We haven't done a very good job of making the physicians who work with us really feel connected....They're isolated in terms of the medical field, because, as you well know, its been marginalized as a sub-specialty of gynecology....and then there's the social isolation that happens when someone is scared to tell what they do.....These guys are pitiful." (Interview with Charlotte Taft by Jane Reynolds of Project Choice. Jane Reynolds was a pseudonym for a LDI employee)
Abortionist David Zbaraz told to Washington Post, "It's a nasty, dirty, yucky thing and I always come home angry." the article went on to say that, "on those days when he performs an abortion, his wife can tell as soon as he walks in the door."
Washington Post 3/3/80
Sallie Tisdale, a nurse in an abortion clinic writes, "There are weary, grim moments when I think I cannot bear another basin of bloody remains, utter another kind phrase of reassurance....'How can I stand it?' even the clients ask. They see the machine, the strange instruments, the blood, the final stroke that wipes away the promise of pregnancy. Sometimes I see that too: I watch a woman's swollen abdomen sink to softness in a few stuttering moments and my own belly flip-flops with sorrow."
Sallie Tisdale, "We Do Abortions Here," Harper's Magazine, October 1987.
In a New York Times editorial, Dr. Susan Conde said, "I observed during my medical training as an Australian physician many abortions by experienced practitioners. They experienced without exception, physical revulsion and moral bewilderment."
New York Times, 10/19/94
One abortionist confessed, "As a physician I'm trained to conserve life and here I am destroying life....I guess I feel guilty because according to the Hippocratic oath you're not supposed to do abortions. So how could you be trained and raised one way and suddenly be told it ok to do it?" He went on to talk about his experience with saline abortions and the fact that the fetus moves around before the injection, thrashes around immediately after it, but then the movement ceases: "You know that there is something alive in there that you're killing."
Magda Denes, In Necessity and Sorrow, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976.
Researchers Constance Nathanson and Marshall Becker observed, "Some studies have suggested that some physicians experience considerable personal disturbances over the abortion procedure itself."
Nathanson and Becker's own study found that 41.8% of Maryland Ob/Gyns who support the Roe v Wade ruling are often or sometimes disturbed by abortion. Of those who are disturbed, 37.1% admit that the disturbance is severe or moderate.
Constance A. Nathanson and Marshall H. Becker, "The Influence of Physicians' Attitudes on Abortion performance, Patient Management and Professional Fees," Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1977
A study of 130 San Francisco abortion clinic workers conducted between January 1984 and March 1985 found that 77% of them see abortion as a destructive act against a living thing, and 18% actually talked about it as murder. The study's author stated, "Particularly striking was the fact that discomfort with abortion clients or procedures was reported by practioners who strongly supported abortion rights and expressed strong commitment to their work. This preliminary finding suggested that even those who supported a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy may be struggling with an important tension between their formal beliefs and the situated experience of their abortion work. "
Kathleen M. Roe, "Private Troubles and Public Issues," Social Science and Medicine, Vol.29,No. 10
The D&E procedure meets a lot of resistance by abortionists, with the head of obstetrics at a Philadelphia teaching hospital admitting that they are "far more 'psychologically traumatizing' for doctors....I can't do them anymore."
Philadelphia Inquirer, 7/18/93
In a paper presented to Planned Parenthood conference, Dr. Warren Hern reported a intense emotional reaction from his staff after D&E operations. These included "physiological symptoms, sleep disturbances, effect on personal relationships, and moral anguish." He observed that the staff's reactions to the fetus ranged from refusal to look, dismay, and amazement, to disgust, fear and sadness. The abortionist admitted that the procedure also caused him problems, saying, "The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electrical current."
Warren Hern and Billie Corrigan, "What About Us? Staff Reactions to the D&E Procedure," presented at a meeting of the Association of Planned Parenthood Physicians, San Diego, 10/26/78
"You have to be a bit schizophrenic. In one room you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity of the fetal heart is not important, everything is going well, she is going to have a nice baby, and then you shut the door and go into the next room and assure another patient on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it's fine if the heart is already irregular, she has nothing to worry about, she is not going to have a live baby. You have to make a 180 degree turn, but somehow it evolved in my own mind gradually."
Magda Denes, In Necessity and Sorrow, New York: Basic Books, Inc., 1976
One doctor who was dedicated to performing abortions eventually had to quit his obstetrics practice to alleviate his conflicts: "I felt that you can't do both. You do a delivery and then do a late term abortion," he says. "I couldn't take the emotional roller-coaster ride."
Karen Tumulty, "The Abortion Of Last Resort" Los Angeles Times, 1/7/90

reply from: churchmouse

"MEDICAL COMMUNITY STIGMA
In 1973 over half of all abortions in America were performed in hospitals. Today 90% are done in free standing clinics. This has resulted in the abortion industry not only being physically isolated from mainstream medicine, but philosophically isolated as well. Abortionists are the first to admit that this is true. Life Dynamics, posing as a pro-choice organization called Project Choice, sent a survey to 961 doctors who do abortions as their primary business. Having received a large response, it can be considered reliable. Among others, questions were asked regarding the way abortionists perceive their place within the broader medical community:
69% felt they were not respected by the rest of the medical community
65% felt ostracized for doing abortions
61% have been verbally confronted by a pro-life physician
60% feel their prestige has been damaged because they do abortions
51% feel isolated from the medical community for doing abortions
19% have been denied hospital privileges because they perform abortions
Not only is the abortion industry isolated from the legitimate medical community, occasionally abortionists are even isolated from others within the abortion industry." LIME 5 by Mark Crutcher
Abortionist Warren Hern once observed, "Increasingly doctors have been made to deal irrelevant. Feminist abortion clinics treat doctors like technicians and are especially contemptuous of male physicians. Entrepreneurs who treat abortion strictly as a retail business also tend to treat doctors as technicians. Doctors who perform abortions have usually acquiesced in these roles, and their status has plummeted lower than that of physicians who do insurance company examinations."
New York Times 3/13/93
Abortionist David Grimes, formerly with the Abortion Surveillance Branch of the Centers for Disease Control, writes, "Clinicians whose practice is limited to abortion services may become estranged from the medical community.
The Philadelphia Inquirer 7/18/93
The view that abortionists are the black sheep of the medical community appears to be pretty universal, even among abortion supporters. An Ohio medical student observed, "There's a real stigma on physicians who provide abortion. It almost like: They do abortions. They don't do real medicine."
S. G. White, "Under the Gunn," Hartford Advocate, 4/15/93
A Birmingham Alabama, physician told an Atlanta newspaper that "the majority of abortionists are seen by their peers as not able to do well in other areas of medical practice, so they gravitate toward abortions for the money."
Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 5/16/93
In a Glamour magazine article, an Ob/Gyn resident said she sees the abortion stigma in school administrators, faculty, and their peers who give the impression that "abortion is a sleazy and offensive procedure....A doctor who does abortions-even if they are only a small part of her practice-is known as an abortionist. This label is supposed to be the kiss of death for any professional hopes she might have."
Anonymous, "Why I am an Abortionist," Glamour, October 1993
Bruce Stier came under attack because it was known that he would be performing abortions. He recalls that one day shortly after the Roe decision, as he was scrubbing up, a colleague standing next to him asked, "So Bruce, how many babies are you going to kill today?
San Francisco Chronicle 3/22/93
Abortionist Morris Wortman says, "Abortion has failed to escape its back-alley association." In his mind it is still treated as the "dark side of medicine....Even when abortion became legal, it was still considered dirty."
Democrat and Chronicle 7/5/92
Finally a Florida newspaper quotes abortionist Robert Crist, lamenting that some physicians who don't do abortions treat him :like a second class citizen. Some of the ones who do-especially the younger, inexperienced ones- have added to an increased level of discomfort." Later in the article, Crist says he knows of others who have quit because the "stigma had become overwhelming."
St. Petersburg times, 6/3/90
In many cases, the low regard with which abortionists are held within the medical community is apparently shared by the abortionists themselves. One of many examples we found of this situation involves John Roe 840. During hearings to determine whether he would lost his medical license, he spoke with pride about the fact that in more than 17 years of doing abortions he had never killed any of his patients. He went on to brag that most of the malpractice charges ever brought against him were dismissed for lack of proof, and that authorities were content to suspend his license for six months and put him on probation for a year and a half. While most physicians would be devastated by having this sort of disciplinary action taken against them, this abortionist saw it as the high point of his medical career.
Reporter Dispatch 9/18/85
These were all taken from LIME 5 by Mark Crutcher. Its a must read book.

reply from: scopia1982

'"among others, questions were asked regarding the way abortionists perceive their place within the broader medical community:
69% felt they were not respected by the rest of the medical community
65% felt ostracized for doing abortions
61% have been verbally confronted by a pro-life physician
60% feel their prestige has been damaged because they do abortions
51% feel isolated from the medical community for doing abortions
19% have been denied hospital privileges because they perform abortions
Not only is the abortion industry isolated from the legitimate medical community, occasionally abortionists are even isolated from others within the abortion industry."
This confirms what I remember my uncle telling us when we were growing up. Around the holiday season we would frequently go to parties given by those in the local medical community. There were 4 abortion providers in our immediate area and lets say they were not on the guests list to any of those get togethers. They are persona non grats in the mainstream medical community.

reply from: BossMomma

Wrong. Some women are in fact born with testicles and a penis. This is due to a flood of testosterone in the womb at the wrong time.
Some women don't have a uterus or ovaries, simply a blind pouch at the end of the vagina.
You clearly don't know WTF you are talking about.
LOL!
I'm pro-nothing. I don't care about your little war.
You attack non-christians. How are you any better?
I have pointed out dozens of times that this was not the case, but you are so deluded, you can't think of anything else.
Oddly enough, YOU bring it up more often than ANYONE on here.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Yes, I love people talking about my genitals!!!11one :eyeroll:
I was born INTERSEX and even I don't know what lurks inside my abdominal area. I could have streaky ovaries, an atrophied uterus and a blind vagina.
You have no idea.
You obviously do love talking about your genitals as I think everyone knows a bit too much about them. Reading your posts is kinda like watching T.V. and seeing a constant stream of Vagisil, Tampax and, Summers Eve commercials...

reply from: BossMomma

I love it when you validate me.
Please continue
Validate nothing, it gets irritating.

reply from: ProLulzer

"
Sorry; I have a love for long and descriptive titles!
In many (if not all) states, if a person kills a pregnant woman, it can count as double homicide. This very fact lends the unborn the right to live, the very right pro-choicers argue they do not have!
"
These laws were all passed by pro choice lobbyists so that this argument could be made. However, you fail to understand the argument that even in light of such laws nothing has changed. If there is a man who needs my kidney to live, and I let him die then I am not going to be charged. If another man kills him out of hand then he will be charged. A woman does not have the legal obligation to let the fetus use her body, so she can get rid of it, and a stranger can't.
"
The first and most common argument from pro-choicers is this:
A woman has the right to control her body - and anything in it. Well, the problem with that argument is that the unborn also has a right to control its body, and abortion therefor violates this right. We've already verified it has a legal right to life, why is it so hard to say that part of life is controlling your own body? The woman's body stops at the placenta. The amniotic sac, the placenta itself, the cord, and all of the amniotic fluid is produced by the baby and the placenta. The womb is simply a vessel. "
It is using her body. Whether or not the body is a vessel does not matter . If it can survive without using her body thats fine.
"
Next, pro-choicers argue that since the child is not fully developed, it has no right to life because it cannot sustain its own life outside of the womb. I assume the law pertaining to double homicide probably only applies post-viability. Well the argument is silly: do babies not have a right to food because they can't feed themselves? Nonsense. Do I not have the right to breathe air because I can't breathe it while under water? Very silly. Do teens never have a right to a car in the future just because they can't drive one now? Of course not. Actually no one has a "right" to a car but you get my point. Being unable to do something doesn't mean you don't have the right to someday do it when you are capable. Just because I can't practice medicine right now because I lack knowledge doesn't mean I don't have the right to learn medicine and someday be a doctor."
You misunderstand this argument so you have set up a strawman. The argument is usually that if the woman can remove the fetus without killing (because it is viable) then she should do that instead of aborting, so it may have a chance to live. If it not viable it has no right for labor t be induced instead of an abortion.
"
What else do they argue? Oh right, that birth is terrible and dangerous. I've already stated elsewhere on here my opinions on birth vs abortion, and factoring in both the woman and the child, the risks of abortion are much higher than birth. For the mother alone, statistics show abortion is safer, but if you ignore the baby, then you're not pregnant so why are you aborting? The baby is and must always be a patient in the abortion debate."
This is a complex subject. I am starting a new thread on it and we can discuss it there.
"
Yes, being accidentally pregnant sucks. No one is going to argue that. But it's a result of a voluntary action that you willingly participated in.
Pro-choicers often use the car crash example to defend abortion.
If you are in a car crash (become accidentally pregnant) you still have the right to full treatment (apparently getting an abortion)." Well here's my rebuttal. You aren't denied treatment after a crash, but you may have to wait several months for the cast to come off your broken leg. Similarly, a pregnancy lasts several months and is not instantly over.
I can't think of many things in this world that are "cured" as quickly and as violently as pregnancy is with abortion.
Having a broken leg is not punishment for getting in an accident, so why do pro-choicers feel pregnancy is punishment for sex? It's not, it's just a consequence like a broken bone. Consequences can be good or bad based only on your view of the consequence. Nature does not punish or reward. nature just has consequences for actions. You chose to have sex and you choose to consider pregnancy a punishment. Or, you choose to acknowledge that is simply a result of having sex.
"
So you support abortions for rape victims? This must also apply to all underage girls since they are not able to legally consent to sex.
"
People who drive carefully and wear seatbelts (women who use birth control) still get into car crashes. They are certainly not being punished for anything but may face months in a cast and rehabilitation anyway. But no one goes to a hospital expecting to be cured instantly of their broken leg because the crash wasn't their fault. No; people know that they have to wear the cast and heal. It's not punishment for anything, it's just how our bodies work. Being pregnant is not a punishment for having sex, it's just what you have to do because an accident happened.
"
You use medicine in order to improve how your body heals using methods created by humans. It is not a matter of punishment, it is matter of using the methods we have available to perform a legal action for your own benefit.
"
Does that make sense? I like taking well-known pro-choice arguments and using them to logically defeat their own arguments. They'd call it "twisting".
The broken leg can be used even more! Here, see:
If your leg is broken in said accident, and "instant" way to heal it would be to amputate it, since voila! no more broken leg. What? Hey, you didn't want to wait several months for your leg to heal in a cast! You can avoid that "punishment"! But now a part of you is missing forever. You leg can't survive without you; it dies. All because you didn't want to wait a few months.
"
You can choose, however, to amputate your leg if you desire, regardless of it being the best of worst outcome.
"""
If this sounds ridiculous it's because abortion is ridiculous! It's ridiculous to kill a perfectly healthy baby just because you're too impatient to wait 9 months. Are you going to be exactly the same after the birth as you were before? Of course not, but that person with the broken leg is never going to be the same again either. It doesn't mean either of you are being punished, that's just how nature is! Every time you have sex you risk getting pregnant. You should face the consequences. This means carrying to term, instead of "amputating" the baby.
The leg comparison can be used for late term abortion and premature birth too. Say you amputate your leg the day your cast is about to come off. Pretty stupid. Then again, if for some reason the cast breaks or needs to come off early (for what ever reason) as long as you're a little bit careful, your leg will probably be okay.
Finally, the last pro-choice argument: "The woman has the right to not be pregnant." Um, where is that law written? End of discussion""
According to the SCOTUS it is the 14th amendment.

reply from: BossMomma

I love it when you validate me.
Please continue
Validate nothing, it gets irritating.
Hey wait a second; didn't YOU bring up my genitals, not the other way around?
LOL!
PWND YOURSELF AGAIN!
I was briefly curious because you said you were transgender which led me to believe you were a guy getting a sex change which explains my confusion during our last spat when you refered to rape victims who abort as equal to their rapist.

reply from: BossMomma

...you're getting less and less relevant and coherent with each post.
Go and have a nap.
I didn't post that. You must have messed up your quoting or the forum messed up.

reply from: BossMomma

...you're getting less and less relevant and coherent with each post.
Go and have a nap.
I didn't post that. You must have messed up your quoting or the forum messed up.
It's a meme, for pointing out the previous post was garbage (i.e. just 'words').
If you didn't get that, then seriously, go and have a nap.
Your brain is fried.
At least a nap is all I need, you need something far stronger.

reply from: ProLulzer

I have addressed these arguments on a couple of threads already, but rather than logically defending your arguments, you just keep repeating them on other threads, apparently abandoning the previous threads without ever addressing my counter arguments....
I explained my view point already on that thread. Your argument against my viewpoint was that it was callous, which means nothing to me and leaves no room for further argumentation.

reply from: churchmouse

Where does it say that they all did PBA's? Maybe a couple were related to late terms but not the majority.
I gave evidence, credible evidence what shows how the medical commnity looks at abortion and how the doctors feel aobut it themselves and how they cope.
Just another comment from you that makes me wonder about your real position. Hmmmmm
Not getting pulled into your sexual problems........
Oh that is obvious. You don't care about the life in the womb.....because you can never have them, you said that so yourself.
Its not about you, its about the unborn vexing. Its not your war.....but its ours. You just lurk around to make fun of those in the fight.
Speak for yourself. There are nice, kind and loving people out there.

reply from: scopia1982

Not getting pulled into your sexual problems........
Oh that is obvious. You don't care about the life in the womb.....because you can never have them, you said that so yourself.
Its not about you, its about the unborn vexing. Its not your war.....but its ours. You just lurk around to make fun of those in the fight.
Speak for yourself. There are nice, kind and loving people out there.
CM, it makes one wonder why Vex is here if Vex does not care about the abortion issue. Vex is pro Vex and thats all their is too it. As far as Vex sexual problems go, I wonder if Vex has gotten professional help. Sounds like Vex needs it.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think every Doctor who performs abortions is uncaring....they are taking care of their patient. The Woman. They care about her....
I believe that abortion is terrible, but that doesn't mean the Doctors are terrible. They just see the whole issue different.
Doctors do all kinds of disgusting things for a living, so the gore and gag factor doesn't bother them like it would me or you....
Anyways, calling them names and dehumanizing them so you can indulge in the luxery of hating Doctors....

reply from: churchmouse

I am shocked at your post here carolemarie.
You have got to be kidding? Taking care of their patients? You mean by knowingly killing their baby for them? You think doctors are idiots that they dont know the nature of the surgery they perform?
You think abortion is just terrrible? You have always been on the side of the woman and abortionists.
You compare abortion to other bloody procedures....GET THIS CAROLE. ABORTION IS NOTHING LIKE OTHER PROCEDURES. NOTHING. IT KILLS. IT DISMEMBERS.
It's not about hating doctors. Its about protecting something innocent and precious and calling what is done to them what it really is. Abortion is killing. Abortion doctors kill. the woman that go there are there to kill their babies. They murder their babies.
What dont you get for petes sake?
You who pretends they are so moral. I do not hate doctors that perform abortions, but I certainly would tell one what I thought if I had the opportunity. I do not respect them as people or as doctors. But then I do not respect a prostitue or stripper either.
This is about being righteous. It is about what is right and wrong. Not for you because your a humanist, you make up your own rules. You only answer to yourself. You and carole obviously do not think the abortionist does anything anything that bad.

You are a pompous, arrogant human being. I have taken responsiblity for my actions. I have called my actions what they were and have made no excuses for them. They were inhumane and sinful. I murdered my unborn child. I make NO EXCUSE. Carole does. And she doesnt think other women should admit what they really did. Its ok to hide.
Christ has washed me clean. I am His serveant, His child. That is what Christ can do for anyone, even you concerened. He can soften your heart.

reply from: carolemarie

There are plenty on this board who have felt it is fine to indulge in hating the Doctors who perform abortions. Pro-lifers in general seem to think that is fine.
It isn't. You don't respecct them as people? What is wrong with you? You don't have any respect for anyone who isn't in total agreement with you?
And as for you not respecting strippers or prostitutes, that is to your shame...everyone deserves to be treated with respect....what has happen to your values to think that you only have to treat those who agree with you with respect and kindness? It doesn't make you any less prolife to treat people with respect.
I have no problem with being pro-woman and pro-child. You have to reach the mom to help her so she can choose life. You can't save the baby if you don't reach the mom, so if your prolife you need to be prowoman!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The do, I really believe most do. But ALL of them forget their other patient... the child.
Right. I wasn't terrible when I was pro-choice, I just saw abortion differently. I focused only on the woman; now I see and realise the pregnant woman and child as a UNIT of two beings who both deserve to live.
OMG liposuction!!!! XD

reply from: churchmouse

I never said I hated them. I hate what they do and I do NOT RESPECT THEM. i dont know any pro-lifer that dwells on hating them.
No I do not respect them as human beings. Hey carole you dont have to make excuses for liking them and thinking what they do is providing a much needed service. Just come out and say it. I think you did say that you respected them because they had a medical degree am I right?
Shame? Why is it a shame to simply not repspect someone because what they do in your opinion is wrong. Prostitution is illegal. Should I respect people that break the law. Should I as a Christian respect those that sin against God? Should I respect someone that provides a sex service that quite possibly could lead to breaking hearts and lives?
You are unbelievable. Why should I respect a person that goes agaisnt the Word? And did I use the word hate Carole? Where did I use the Word hate? Can you still love somone and not respect them? Or because you love someone you have to accept hook line and sinker everything that they say and do?
Do you respect drug dealers that sell drugs to elementary school children?
Did I say anything about stoning anyone? Hurting someone just because I do not respect them? Is that what you think people do if they dont respect someone?
I stand outside abortion mills and I dont call names. I pray and hold signs.
Have you ever done that Carole? My guess is probably not. BEcause to do so would disrespect the work that is being provided inside the mill. It would demean the doctor, right?
I dont call names, I dont swear. I dont need to. But I have been in conversations with them and I make it known that their work disgusts me. I can talk like anyother human being, but not respect them.

First of all I am pro-God. I am pro-people. I am doing this because of my love for Christ. I believe after also killing my unborn, this is what God wants me to do. To touch peoples lives pre-abortion and post.
Curious .....Do you think God respects abortionists? Do you think God respects women that have just killed their babies? Do you think God respects anyone that works at an abortion mill?
All these people are sinners in Gods eyes. How should we look at sin? How does God look at sin?
We are supposed to bring God glory in ALL WE DO. Does the abortionist do this? The woman that walks in the abortion mill? The receptionist? the nurse?
God is holy and the acts that are performed are unholy acts that do not honor God. They disrespect who God is and what He did for us.
How does God react to sin......with respect?

This has everything to do with worshipping and doing what is right for God. You do not need to hate anyone to show that actions are ungodly or wrong.
Do you also repect the terrorists that brought down the buildings on 9-11 Carole? They were intelligent, well trained and reliigous. Religious enough to do what they did for Allah and giving up their own lives in order to do it. Should we respect them? Abortionists kill on a daily basis. Some abortionists at the end of their carreers kill thousands and thousands of unborns. Tell me the difference between what the abortionist does morally and what the terrorists do.
Who should we respect here? The people that were murdered on 9-11 were innocent people. The unborn in the womb are innocent people. Why should we respect their killers?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I take it that your husband the doctor has never performed abortions.

reply from: scopia1982

"Shame? Why is it a shame to simply not repspect someone because what they do in your opinion is wrong. Prostitution is illegal. Should I respect people that break the law. Should I as a Christian respect those that sin against God? Should I respect someone that provides a sex service that quite possibly could lead to breaking hearts and lives?"
Many of these prostitutes are trapped into this lifestyle and need our compassion and understanding, not our condemnation CM. In the case of the common street walkers, they are hooked on drugs by pimps who abuse them and take most of what they earn or they feel they have no other choice because it pays the bills or puts food on the table. Prostitution like abortion is another way that men use and exploit women. We are so quick to condemn the women, but say nothing about the men who patronize her. They are the ones who take the hard earned money that should go to the support of their families and spend it on the services of a hooker.

reply from: churchmouse

No he has not.
"Many of these prostitutes are trapped into this lifestyle and need our compassion and understanding, not our condemnation CM. In the case of the common street walkers, they are hooked on drugs by pimps who abuse them and take most of what they earn or they feel they have no other choice because it pays the bills or puts food on the table. Prostitution like abortion is another way that men use and exploit women. We are so quick to condemn the women, but say nothing about the men who patronize her. They are the ones who take the hard earned money that should go to the support of their families and spend it on the services of a hooker."
Indeed many are trapped. But what are you saying..... That anything can be used as an excuse?
As a Christian I use the Word as my guide to life. Its not about what I think is acceptable, its what God thinks is acceptable. I have the right to judge someones words and actions, but not their heart. Do you have to respect someone in order to love them? No.
Do you think Scott Petersons parents still loved him, even after the horrendous things he did? I would venture to guess they do. But do they respect what he did, the decisions and the lifestyle he was leading? I bet the answer would be no.
Should we respect drug dealers? Pimps? Pediphiles? Rapists? Theives? They all might have had terrible childhoods but sin is sin and we all have choices that we have to live with.
Why do you think that all strippers are exploited? Pleazze. I think today with society so accepting of deviant behavior that stripping isnt considered that wild.
How many women do you think are forced into abortion? I would venture to guess that most the woman getting them are not pressured.
Why do you excuse people for their actions?
Now I agree with what you also said that the "John" should also be held responsible.

reply from: carolemarie

First of all, all human beings deserve respect. If for no other reason than they are created in the image of God.
Respecting a person doesn't mean agreeing with them or supporting everything they do. But it does mean not looking down on them or treating them rudely or less than you would someone you like. You can hate what they are doing, without disrespecting them as a person.
I offer respect to everyone I met, because each person is important to God.
I believe that God wants you to treat the abortion provider with the same respect that you treat your fellow prolifer. You don't get to treat him with disdain. You may hate what he does, but your not allowed to hate him. (God's rules)
As for hookers, yeah, they deserve to be treated with respect. Not for what they are doing, but for who they are. I fail to see what you can't understand about that.
I think we have to respect everyone, not what they do.
And FYI, stripping is still considered a deviant lifestyle. How many strippers do you know personally? How many go to your church?
If they did, they will not tell anyone. .
Most of the porn actressess are recruited from strip clubs and same for escorting. Stripping is sort of like the gateway drug for prostitution and porn...and over 95% of the women involved in it were sexually abused as kids and most start as teenagers...they are one of the most raped and exploited classes of women in the world....
Because of sin, people make bad choices and have wrong world views, they act on that. God expects us to love them anyways, to help them chose right and to really care. That means respecting them as individuals.
You were once a women who was fine with abortion. You didn't deserve to be called names or to be treated as less than someone who didn't have an abortion. What you believed was wrong. That didn't give people the right to disrespect you.
You need to get off your high horse and remember where you came from. Most of the prochoice women on this board didn't have abortions, but you did. So you have no room to call them callous and evil. Treat them with the same respect you want in return.

reply from: carolemarie

That shows how wrong your assumptions are.
yes I have done sidewalk counseling for 13 years, that is done in front of abortion clinics. I have done the truth tours and worked the booths and spoken at colleges, testified before state legislatures, done workshops and post-abortion counseling and all of that. I am prolife.
I still don't call the Dr. names, I treat them with respect and kindness, as well as the nurses and staff. It is precisely because I am a Christian that I do this.
Jesus hung out with sinners, he ate with them and showed them respect, not for what they did, but for who they were, a person precious to God. It is the kindness of the Lord that leads people to repentance.

reply from: churchmouse

All human beings deserve to be loved. But I see respect and love as two different things. I think you can love someone as Christ commands and not respect them.
How can we repect someone who is sinning? God doesn't. Are you not familiar with Gods attributes?
I did not say they should be treated rudely. You can get your point across in ways that are not rude and still stand your ground. I do it all the time. No carole.....I can love them as human beings......and call them on their actions. And if their actions are horrible then I believe people have the right to get ticked off. Christ did it when he overturned the table in the temple.
I do not respect the abortionist.
You think God respects everyone? Lets look to scripture.
To the saved God looks at them through Jesus Christ. To the unsaved he looks at them through Adam. The sinner is separated from Christ.
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). In addition, " ... God is angry with the wicked every day" (Ps 7:11)
Here, God does not hate men in general, He hates sinful men.
"Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin" (Jn. 8:34) "every single one practicing sin, a slave (emphatically), is of sin."
Abortionists are sinning. They are a worker of sin.
1 Jn 3:8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil" or "the one practicing sin, of the devil (emphatically) is."
Abortionists practice sin.
John says, "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (Jn 3:36).
The Wrath of God......Does respect comes with this too?
Carole God's wrath is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness. Abortion is neither. If God loves sinners and those that reject Him then why would he send them to hell? Christ can't compromise because He is Holy, fair and just. His eyes are too pure to look at evil.
Ps 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.
Are abortionist following Gods word? Are they disobeying God?
Where in the NT, do we see anywhere the apostles telling sinners that God respects them?
Absolutely not. No way. As I said this has nothing to do with hate but doing what is right. And what is right is telling him he is a sinner and will go to hell if he does not repent and become saved. Repent and stop doing abortions.
So your child is just molested by the neighborhood pediphile Carol......do you respect him? A drunk driver kills a family member.......you respect him? A woman is raped.....you respect the rapist Carole? A drug addict sells drugs to your child, they become addicted, do you respect them?
The 9-11 terrorists......you respect them?
Well none that I know of. I go to a small church and know everyone. We do have imperfect people, sinners that attend. And I do know a stripper. My sons best friends ex girlfriend. She just had an abortion a few months back and I know she is in pain, she told me. They have since broken up so I don't see her anymore. Her stripping was helping her pay for college, and obviously her abortion that she didnt want made public.
Yes they do and we are to love them. But what is scriptural Carole, I just showed you. We do not have to repect them as people. Curious do you respect Satan?
We should help them and to help them we need to show them the LAW, tell them the truth. We should not say gee God loves you and if you get saved everythign will be perfect......we should tell them that God hates them for what they are doing, to turn from sin. You know what the consequences are and they need to know. We need to tell them that is scriptural.
I was pro choice you are absolutely right. I was a Christian in name only a sinner deep in sin. Abortion wasnt my only sin. I wish like hell someone had yelled at me, hit me over the head and forced me to look at what I was about to do. I wished PP had been honest and told me about fetal development, but they did nothing but stamp PIF on my receipt. People treated me no differently because I didn tell anyone what I had just done. I dont know did you brag and tell people about your three abortions Carole, or did you hide them as well? How many woman dont want people to know about their abortions because of what people might rightfully think about them? REmember abortion is murder. you seem to forget that.
what right do you have to tell me to get off my high horse......why dont you get down off your self made pedestal to remembering the real victim in all of this.......THE UNBORN CHILD. How much respect do you give them? You are so wrapped up in being goody goody to those that do the killing you forget that which they are murdering....the unborn.
I do not have to respect anyone involved with killing unborn children. I am not disrespectful, I do not call them names.....but I will be damned if I ever would follow in your footsteps by respecting those that kill on demand.
As I said, which continually goes over your head......this is not about love. Its about doing what is righteous and godly. These people need the truth. I pray you find out what that is before its to late.
I stand on the Word Carole. Look at the verses I just gave you. Ask the Holy Sprit to convict you of them. if you think for one minute God respects sinners, you are sadly mistaken.
I would suggest doing a deductive bible study on the wrath of god.
You are pathetic. I DO NOT CALL ANYONE NAMES CAROLE? WHY CANT YOU COMPREHEND THIS? WHAT IS WRONG? You do not have to call names and yell, scream to disrepect someone.
It is the wrath of God that will send people to hell carole. You have to stand on the truth, whether you like it or not.
Proverbs 14:27, "The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death."
Sinners need to know that they should fear the Lord. Along with fearing......comes wisdom.
You can love them like Christ commands, but not respect their words and actions. You dont need to yell or scream......but stand on the Word, their lives depend on it.
I have done many of the things you have done with the exception of testifiying before a court......I was even on a Right to Life video that went out nationwide....... I have also gone undercover......into PP offices.
I have never yelled or treated anyone in an inhumane way. But I greatly disrespect them as people for doing what they do. I have no problem telling them this....of course in a nice way.

reply from: carolemarie

People need to know that God loves them and has always loved them, even at their worst...
you have no reason to disrespect anyone else. You are not any different then they are, all of us are sinners and all of us have failed God. There but for God's grace goes any of us...including abortion providers, rapist and all the lot you described. The person who does evil is still valuable and loved by God.
The fear of God never brought anyone to Him. In fact it keeps lots of poeple from Him.
But His love draws us, everyone needs compassion and kindness, epecially those who have failed...and we need a Savior who can fix what we can not.
That is what is so great about God, He first loved us, that is why we love Him. He loved failures and unrepentant sinners and died to redeem them....
Love is patient and kind, it keeps no record of wrongs. And we are suppose to live like that....
God is the embodiment of Love.
Your theology seems to have left you with no compassion, which is the one thing Jesus had plenty of for all of us...

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Churchmouse, you call people names, you just deny it. You JUST CALLED Carole "pathetic"!!! That's calling someone a name!!
Let's quote you being a hypocrite!!!
Just because you don't think calling someone a baby killer is calling them a name doesn't mean it's not. You don't think calling someone foolish or ignorant or moral-less or filth is calling someone a name but it IS. I showed it to you, I shoved the evidence in your face and you LIED. I have no respect for you if you are going to keep up this charade of being "better" than everyone else. If you keep lying as you have once again done. I'm not angry at you for calling people names. I'm angry at you for lying about it.
You're not any better than me. Hell, at least I admit that I call names sometimes.

reply from: churchmouse

Pull your thong out Liberal.......
I have called one person a name on here and that was River......I called her Moonbat. Which actually is not really a negative term but a political one. It sounds mean so I only used it once and then stopped.
It's funny however that I am the only one you attack for their attacks on people. Has Concerned every called people names? How about vexing? And you say nothing to them. Why? Because their views reflect your position?
"Moonbat (also "barking moonbat" and "moonbat crazy") is a term often used currently in U.S. politics as a political epithet referring to anyone that is believed to be liberal or on the left. "Wingnut" (or "right wing nut") is frequently preferred as the analogous epithet aimed at the political right[1].."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat

River however continually calls me names. And you have not said one word to her about her actions have you? Why?
LOL

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm not attacking you for your attacks. I'm attacking you for lying about those attacks. You keep saying that you "don't name call" yet you keep on doing it. THAT'S what I'm attacking you for.
I don't know who "River" is. I do know you have insulted Vexing, and where I just quoted you, you name-called Carole.
By the way, for admitting that you attack people, I'll take that as a confession to the fact that you do in fact call people names


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