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Newborn baby boy found screaming in garbage can

14 year old delivered at school and trashed the kid

by: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Can you even imagine, a baby put into a trash can? Do these Pro-Abort people have any concept of how evil they are?
Newborn Baby Found Alive in Trash Can at Phoenix Middle School
Wednesday, September 17, 2008
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PHOENIX - Phoenix police are investigating the discovery of a newborn found alive in a trash can at a Phoenix school.
Police said a school administrator discovered the baby boy screaming inside the garbage can Tuesday afternoon with his umbilical cord still attached.
The baby seemed to be in excellent condition. He also appeared to have been carried to full term, said Capt. Victor Rangel, a Phoenix Fire Department spokesman.
Emergency crews took the newborn to St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center. The baby has since been placed in custody with state Child Protective Services, said Sgt. Andy Hill, a Phoenix police spokesman.
Phoenix police said the 14-year-old mother gave birth to the child inside the administration building at Osborn Middle School.
The Phoenix Fire Department later located the mother at a nearby apartment and she was taken to a hospital in good condition, Hill said.
Due to the abandonment of the baby in a life threatening situation, investigators will do a possible child abuse report and submit it to the Maricopa County Attorney's Office for review, Hill said.

reply from: scopia1982

It seems to me in this case the girl was scared. Many would justify these circumstances as a reason why minors should be allowed to abort without parental consent. IMO it seems she felt that she couldnt go and talk to her parents. Deeper issues need to be addressed and an abortion would only make matters worse.

reply from: Banned Member

I can hear the pro-abortion response now...
"If you people would just allow mothers to kill their babies, they wouldn't be killing their babies."
Huh?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I treated this case of a baby thrown into the trash with umbilical cord still attached the same as an abortion. If a doctor had performed an abortion two days earlier, killing the kid quickly so we did not hear him screaming and see him waving his arms in unhappiness, would that have been different? Wouldn't a bad thing have happened to the boy in either case. (Of course, the abortion by an abortion professional would have been worse.)

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Originally posted by: GodsLaw4Us2Live
Can you even imagine, a baby put into a trash can? Do these Pro-Abort people have any concept of how evil they are?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<~
spinwiddy said:
Uh, Genius...
If the mother was a "proabort," she wouldn't have carried the unwanted pregnancy to term.
This story has nothing to do with abortion.
My response:
What in the blue blazes are you two talking about!?! This is an abortion. There is no difference between a mother throwing the child in the trash at 9 months or an abortionist throwing a late-term abortion murdered child at 9 months into the trash. Is the arbitary location item an issue: in the womb or birth tunnel (a legal killing), out of the birth tunnel possibly an unlawful killing?
Tell me why the girl throwing the child away is in substance different than an abortionist throwing the child in the trash. There is no difference.
This story has everything to do with abortion.
You guys don't get it. It's a person you are killing!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

An abortion is not merely the ending of a pregnancy, it's the ending of a human life. The most important factor is that a living human being is put to death. The girl attempted to put her child to death, the most important single ingredient in an abortion. What she did was try to carry out the most important aspect of an abortion, causing a dead baby. Your simplistic answer covers unimportant details like ending a pregnancy while ignoring the major point: killing the child.

reply from: Banned Member

abortion = throwing child in trash can = putting abortion survivor in closet = strangulation by abortionist = infanticide
Killing children; born, unborn... It's all the same business.

reply from: Witness

joueravecfou: An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy prior to fullterm birth.
This girl did not have an abortion as she carried to term, gave birth and the baby is alive.
The difference seems so obvious really.
How about when the abortionist stabs the child because it survived the abortion? That happened here. It was a late term and the child survived. So, the abortionist took a knife and stabbed it until it died. Technically, it's infanticide, but the authorities ignored it because the mother came for an abortion. So, in my opinion, the two are too close to call.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Interesting. Do you have any links, or is this just another pro-life urban legend?
It was my understanding that if a child survived an abortion it was either placed in a bucket of water or left gasping for breathe for minutes or hours until it died. I understand one Chicago area hospital would deliver early and simply leave the child to die due to it being premature and not having fully functional organs. Are you saying these things aren't so? Just urban legends?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

This poor, confused, terrified young girl went through a painful experience of unassisted birth - in which she herself could have died - all without anyone's help and you're angry at HER!? Also, she did not have an abortion.
What this poor girl needs is help. HER parents need investigating for child abuse: HOW can you not tell if your 14 year old daughter is 9 months pregnant!?!? Wtf, really? This innocent young girl needed help during her pregnancy, she should have had loving arms around her the whole time, and yet all you people can do is whine about how she "aborted" (false) and how she should be arrested!? SHE is a victim too!! Plus she didn't kill the child because she didn't want to or didn't know how, and... I don't know. All I want to do is hug the poor girl. 14 is too young to go through that kind of mental and physical trauma all by herself. Poor thing
I'm also very glad the baby is doing well, and an adoptive family is certainly the best place for it.

reply from: carolemarie

It is a very sad story, that a pregnant girl was in such a situtation, gave birth alone at school and put the child in the garbage.
Nobody noticed she was pregnant?
Not her parents or the teachers?
It is good the baby lived and now she will get the help she needs, such as counseling. However, she is old enough to know that stuffing a baby in the trash is wrong. it is criminal and she is old enough to be held accountable.
She was old enough to know how to call 911 or go to the nurses office so my sympathies lie with the baby more than her.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

My sympathies lie with the girl more because the baby isn't likely going to be emotionally traumatized by this, but she IS. She was too afraid to go for help Carol, believe me I have been that afraid. She needed someone to reach out TO her, and no one did... When you're scared like that you don't think rationally so what seems like common sense now to us is NOT common sense to someone in that situation. She absolutely knew it was bad, and she regrets it I'm sure, she's sorry, and she's paying for that mentally anyway which is why I feel she doesn't deserve any legal action taken against her.

reply from: Caidenbug

I agree with carolemarie 14 is young yet she is old enough to know what she should have done. If she is old enough to have sex then she is old enough to deal with the result of it. She put the baby in the trash can to die. You don't put a baby there in hopes that someone will find him and take care of him!!

reply from: carolemarie

I just don't understand sticking the baby in the trash....
I was pregnant at 15 and scared to death too, but you have to do something at some point. She was 14, not three.
She doesn't live in a vacuum, she lives in a world that has tv and radio and people talk! She could have asked someone for help. She could have done a google search at the library....
i doubt that charges will be filed, but if they are, they will probably make her get counseling, which in her case is needed.

reply from: Caidenbug

It took me several years to get pregnant. I was told that the chances were slim to none. So when I hear about babies being put in the trash, it just kills me. There are so many women out there that would love to care for those babies because they can't get pregnant. There are so many more options today for women who don't want the baby other than killing it.

reply from: carolemarie

There has always been options other than abortion. Abortion is a pretty selfish and mean thing to do..
The appeal of abortion is that nobody finds out you are pregnant or that you were having sex. Your life goes back to exactly where it was before you found out you were pregnant...
But it really doesn't. You are forever changed, and not for the better

reply from: Caidenbug

I really wish there was a way for all women to know the truth about abortion. How it will make them feel before and after. I just wish there was something I could do to help them but I really don't know what to do. Im pretty new to all this, I have always been prolife but I just started becoming active in it.

reply from: carolemarie

You are doing somethng, so that s great! If everyone would do something we could change the world. I think that caring about the women who come into the clinic is wonderful and caring about them even if the choose abortion, because you can help them find healing and perhaps prevent a second or third abortion.
For those who come out afterwards crying, give them post abortion information and a number they can call for help if they need to talk. That would be a great thing you can give them.
I am so glad that you are there to reach out to those who find themselfes at the abortion clinic.

reply from: Caidenbug

Thank you so much you are the first one on this forum to give me information on what I can do to help. I never thought of giving post abortion information to the women to prevent more abortions. There are so many people on this site that are pro choice and I was afraid no one would help support me in this. It has been about a week since I have become active in prolife and to tell you the truth I have cried for the women and babies ever since. Thank you again.

reply from: carolemarie

Sheri, Teresa, Forgiven and Yoda all go to the clinics and would be glad to share what they do with you. And what materials they use and all of that.
Do you go by yourself?

reply from: Caidenbug

I have not gone yet but I plan on going soon. My son has been very sick so I haven't been able to do much since I choose to become active in pro life. Do they go to planned parenthood or a clinic just for abortion?

reply from: carolemarie

I am not sure....it is all the same thing no matter if it is PPH or a private clinic....
I have some notes on talking to women at an abortion clinic if you want them.
Basically, you simply go and offer help. You need to have your facts together, where you can send them to help (like a local pregnancy help center). It helps to know what they can do and what they offer, and be willing to help yourself. Sometimes taking over dinner or helping with housework is a great help to a overwhelmed young mom.
I would reccomend going to the local help center and volunteering, they always need help and you will really understand the needs and what to do after working with women for awhile.
Don't go to the clinic alone....

reply from: Caidenbug

once again thank you so much for all your help. I will check into the local pregnancy center tomorrow. I would never go to a clinic alone. You have really been a great help, the world needs more people like you.

reply from: carolemarie

Glad I could help
Let us know how it goes volunteering

reply from: Caidenbug

I will, I can't wait to get started!!!!

reply from: yoda

I'll be pulling for you, Caidensmom. Remember, just showing up is 90% of it. Just being there for the inbound moms to see is very important, no matter what your sign says, or what you say. Just the sight of a friendly face begging them to change their minds can be very, very important to saving a life.

reply from: Witness

Spinwiddy: Originally posted by: Witness
How about when the abortionist stabs the child because it survived the abortion? That happened here. It was a late term and the child survived. So, the abortionist took a knife and stabbed it until it died. Technically, it's infanticide, but the authorities ignored it because the mother came for an abortion. So, in my opinion, the two are too close to call.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Interesting. Do you have any links, or is this just another pro-life urban legend?
I believe it was reported to the Kansas legislature, but I don't if there is anything on the web about it. I know there was a witness and testimony. It's definitely not urban legend.

reply from: Witness

Posted by Caidenbug:I have not gone yet but I plan on going soon. My son has been very sick so I haven't been able to do much since I choose to become active in pro life. Do they go to planned parenthood or a clinic just for abortion?
Go, Caidenbug!!! Welcome to the ranks of those who plead for the children's lives!! I pray your son gets healed quickly and that you find your voice in this fight. God bless you!!

reply from: Witness

Okay, Spinwiddy, this case is tied to another case where an abortion was performed without consent. Both involve the same abortionist. The only internet records I could find are on Operation Rescue's website.

reply from: BossMomma

This has nothing to do with abortion, this has everything to do with the fact that this teen was scared.

reply from: BossMomma

Yeah, it's so much better that the baby be brought to term and dumped in the trash can. (sarcasm)

reply from: carolemarie

The baby can be place for adoption which is a simple choice, or dropped off at a safe baby site.
The choice isn't abortion or a trash can....

reply from: BossMomma

Yes, an adult knows this, but we are talking about a 14 year old girl, someone who only really has an inkling of how her body works. We don't know if the girl was raped, pressured to do so by the child's father, a victim of incest or any background to explain why she chose that route.

reply from: nancyu

Yeah, it's so much better that the baby be brought to term and dumped in the trash can. (sarcasm)
You think it would be better to kill the child than to place the child in a trash can? I know a trash can is not the ideal place to be, but at least the child survived and there will be another day for that child. Your (sarcasm) is inappropriate.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby? But you are more sympathetic towards her? I suppose if a man lost his job and was scared and panicked because he believed no one would reach out to help put food on the table; you would be more sympathetic to him if he committed an armed robbery of a store than to the victim. So if he shot the store-owner but he recovered, maybe you believe the robber has paid for it mentally therefore he doesn't deserve any legal action against him.
You are much to easy on people who deliberately, intentionally inflect harm or death on others. There are other options available. Choosing to mistreat or kill others is not an option. Penalties must be imposed on those who mistreat others.

reply from: yoda

Yes, such is the twisted reasoning of the "faux-lifer". Sad, isn't it?
Reminds me of William Waddell, who strangled to death an "accidental baby" who survived his attempted abortion.... but was not lucky enough to be born after the abortionist had left, as was Gianna Jessen...
http://realchoice.blogspot.com/2006/11/history-william-waddill-and-killing-of.html [/a]
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919649,00.html [/a]
http://abortionviolence.com/MURDERS.HTM http://www.physiciansforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1164 [/a]

reply from: carolemarie

Yes, an adult knows this, but we are talking about a 14 year old girl, someone who only really has an inkling of how her body works. We don't know if the girl was raped, pressured to do so by the child's father, a victim of incest or any background to explain why she chose that route.
Yet you believe that a 14 year old can make the reasonsed choice to choose abortion? If they are to young and irresponsible to know better than sticking a baby in the trash, they are to irresponsible to choose abortion with out a parent assisting them

reply from: Witness

Good point, Carolmarie.

reply from: Bgraphics

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Interesting. Do you have any links, or is this just another pro-life urban legend?
http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

I thought you would like a link. Look at some of these pics and tell us what you think.

reply from: yoda

No, it's exactly as bad, from a moral standpoint.
That's the whole point.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There are so many ways we need to get out this information! Teens don't have a clue where to go for help with pregnancy and adoption.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Because she was scared and didn't know what else to do. You hear all the time about babies in dumpsters so that's probably where she got the idea from.
How would she know what to do? Who tells their 13 year old where to go if she gets pregnant? Oh that's right, almost NO ONE, because everyone's too afraid of young sex education "ruining" our kids!! This situation could have been completely avoided if this girl had used a condom, I bet.
She didn't know who to ask for help, probably didn't want her friends or parents to know because she was afraid of being yelled at and made fun of, and she thought her counselor would tell her parents. She probably DID do a google search, pending that she wasn't so terrified of her predicament that she tried to black out the whole thing.
She DOES need counseling, and charges shouldn't have to be filed for her to get that.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I wouldn't have had a clue where to go or who to tell if I fell pregnant at age 14. Did you honestly know? Don't assume she's received sexual eduation; if the right wing nutters have their way no child will even have a clue what a clitoris is! And most parents (it seems) are too afraid to talk about sexuality.
Oh, so you think a 5 year old who is raped by a 40 year old man is "old enough to deal"? 14 is NOT old enough to be having sex; that doesn't change the fact that it happened. It also does NOT make her old enough to deal with it on her own!!
How do you know? Did you ask her?
How do you know? You hear all the time about stories of babies found alive in dumpsters. That's probably where she got her idea from.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

How would she know where that "site" is? I happen to know that you can drop babies off at fire departments, but how would a 14 year old know that, much less be able to GET to any of these "safe" locations!?.
She didn't know, and she couldn't go. Period. She thought she was all alone, and that all anyone would want to do is punish her, possibly force her to abort. For all we know, that's what would have happened if she'd talked. Her parents could have taken her to Tiller.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yes, an adult knows this, but we are talking about a 14 year old girl, someone who only really has an inkling of how her body works. We don't know if the girl was raped, pressured to do so by the child's father, a victim of incest or any background to explain why she chose that route.
Exactly!! That's why I feel so sorry she went through this.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby?
Nope. Where does it say that?
With the information I had, yes. I read she birthed the baby and put it in a trash can, end of story. Did I miss something?
Actually yes, I would be sympathetic to that man. He certainly needs some counseling and some career assistence, and those programs are available.
I certainly think the poor man (the robber) has some penance to pay, but that it's not necessarily jail time. He clearly needs some counseling and career help as I said.
I don't recall the girl trying to kill the baby. Again, if you could just quote that section of the article...
This girl was mistreated by being told she was old enough to have sex by someone. She is a victim too.

reply from: Caidenbug

At 14 I would have been scared to tell my parents that I was pregnant BUT I knew that it would have been the responsible thing to do. You can't tell me that at 14 she didn't know about adoption or any other option other than throwing her baby in the trash. And a 5 year old getting raped and a 14 year old consenting to sex is the complete opposite and you know it!!!!!!!! If you are having sex of your own free will then you need to own up to what has become of it. This is a prolife forum NOT prochoice!!! What if someone got sick of you and placed you in a trash can (with no way for you to get out) and thought someone else can find her and deal with her!!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby?
Nope. Where does it say that?
With the information I had, yes. I read she birthed the baby and put it in a trash can, end of story. Did I miss something?
Actually yes, I would be sympathetic to that man. He certainly needs some counseling and some career assistence, and those programs are available.
I certainly think the poor man (the robber) has some penance to pay, but that it's not necessarily jail time. He clearly needs some counseling and career help as I said.
I don't recall the girl trying to kill the baby. Again, if you could just quote that section of the article...
This girl was mistreated by being told she was old enough to have sex by someone. She is a victim too.
The father of the child committed statutory rape and should be serving 20 years, with eligibility for early parole based on good behavior and work release during working hours to support his child.
Placing a child in a trash can is not conducive to a long-term living arrangement. I would expect a child neglected long-term to die. A child can't feed or clothe itself.
Take the kid to a hospital or social services and you are not under suspicion of trying to cause that child's death. Put a baby in the trash can, the assumption is that you wanted no one to find the child and you wanted him to die and disappear in the landfill.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know how you figure she can't find out how to get help....
SHE WAS 14-- I wasn't a total moron at 14. I was able to figure out that I needed to do something....I bet she can text and download music...so she could have texted chacha for that matter!
I find it strange to assume that a teenager is too stupid to google or call 911 or any of that.
So a trash can was the best idea? I don't buy that at all.
Your empathy is misplaced here.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I wouldn't and DON'T know where to look to find a clinic that would pick me up from school and be totally anonymous and not tell my parents.
I was smart, but not "street-smart", and I definitely consider this issue to be street smarts.
Yeah but she wouldn't realise to USE that technology to help her. Young kids these days are very narrowminded. Just like they always have been. They're just kids! They know they can use their phone to text their friends. That doesn't mean they'll realise the can use that same internet to look up pregnancy help. Heck, this girl probably even didn't know she COULD get pregnant.
It's not that she's stupid, it's that she wasn't thinking in that same way.
It was all she could think of at the time. Of course it's not the best idea; who said that?
Your confusion is misplaced here.

reply from: Caidenbug

I do apologize for not reading the whole thread to see that she was rapped but I do still stand firm in the fact that putting the baby in the trash can was wrong.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh I would have known it was the responsible thing.. doesn't mean I would have done it. Knowing and doing are two totally different things. And then the guilt and fear just builds up until it's overwhelming.
How do we know this 14 year old consented to the sex? I am not saying this girl made the RIGHT choice, but I am saying she is not fully responsible for her actions.
I'm not pro-choice so I have no idea why you're screaming and freaking out.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Which child? The teen or the baby? So she WAS raped? Support the child? It should be adopted out, neither that old freak or the poor young girl needs or wants that baby. I don't understand why he's even part of the picture, except to arrest him for rape.
Duh?
HOW is a 14 year old girl going to get to any of those places by herself? She has things called curfew; her parents tend to know where she is or so I'd hope. She can't just hop on a city bus after school without people noticing. Her parents would notice she's not home on time... there's just way too many things preventing her from getting rid of the baby in the "ideal" way. Of course she should have done things differently, but she didn't, and you need to understand WHY. Being angry at her is why so many women abort. They don't want your anger. You need to diffuse that anger.
She wanted it to disappear, but die? No. She would have tried to abort I assume, making herself sick. Then again, she probably wanted to abort and couldn't do that for the same reasons she couldn't drop off the child at a safehouse. Is her situation becoming clear to you?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No one is denying that fact, so your firmness is shared.

reply from: scopia1982

The fact that this girl put the baby in the trash can was wrong, but it is a symptom of a deeper issue. I would start investigating her parents.

reply from: yoda

And what if they knew nothing about it?
Would you hold her blameless then?

reply from: cracrat

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby? But you are more sympathetic towards her? I suppose if a man lost his job and was scared and panicked because he believed no one would reach out to help put food on the table; you would be more sympathetic to him if he committed an armed robbery of a store than to the victim. So if he shot the store-owner but he recovered, maybe you believe the robber has paid for it mentally therefore he doesn't deserve any legal action against him.
The point os not that you would be without sympathy for the store clerk, but that you would reserve some sympathy for the fellow with the gun. Undoubtably this baby has had a truely traumatic experience, but we can be reasonably sure it'll get over it fairly quickly. That poor girl though is going to have to live with what she did for the rest of her life, something which I imagine will get worse as she gets older and she understands the magnitude of wht she did. She is deserving of sympathy too, and I say those of you who would deny it her are less humane than you night like to think
Presumably that doesn't extend to religious inspired bigotry and gay-bashing...

reply from: scopia1982

And what if they knew nothing about it?
Would you hold her blameless then?
Yoda, I dont hold her blameless at all. I think she needs to answer for what she did. But we should be asking ourselves why. what was going on her life that she felt she had to hide it. I cant for the life of me know what kind of parents cannot tell their daughter is 9 mths pregnant, unless they are an idiot or just ignore her.

reply from: KaylieBee

And what if they knew nothing about it?
Would you hold her blameless then?
If you're so distant you do not notice that your daughter has suddenly ballooned up, there has to be something wrong at home.

reply from: scopia1982

And what if they knew nothing about it?
Would you hold her blameless then?
If you're so distant you do not notice that your daughter has suddenly ballooned up, there has to be something wrong at home.
I agree with K on this topic. I remember when I got pregnant with my son and didnt want my family to know I was trying to hide until I had to tell. ( longstory) But when I went to visit my aunt and uncle in Roanoke Va, I was in target trying on a bra, my aunt came in the dressing room to help me and she noticed the changes in my breast right away. No matter how much I denied it she said she had noticed some subtle changes since I got there. She knew it even before I told her the truth. Granted when my mom found out I didnt talk to her for 3 months but she finally came around. The truth always comes out.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby? But you are more sympathetic towards her? I suppose if a man lost his job and was scared and panicked because he believed no one would reach out to help put food on the table; you would be more sympathetic to him if he committed an armed robbery of a store than to the victim. So if he shot the store-owner but he recovered, maybe you believe the robber has paid for it mentally therefore he doesn't deserve any legal action against him.
The point os not that you would be without sympathy for the store clerk, but that you would reserve some sympathy for the fellow with the gun. Undoubtably this baby has had a truely traumatic experience, but we can be reasonably sure it'll get over it fairly quickly. That poor girl though is going to have to live with what she did for the rest of her life, something which I imagine will get worse as she gets older and she understands the magnitude of wht she did. She is deserving of sympathy too, and I say those of you who would deny it her are less humane than you night like to think
Presumably that doesn't extend to religious inspired bigotry and gay-bashing...
Words aren't illegal; such as saying Allah was one wicked Satan dude and sodomy is one extremely perverse act by very perverse people. Seriously, Allah IS Satan. Who else could write such evil stuff as is contained in the Quran? That's why we had 9/11 dude. Don't you know those who flew the planes into the buildings were all Allah worshippers. They praised him as they went about their demon possessed suicide flight. They thanked Allah for all the death they were about to cause. I can't imagine anything much more Satanic. Except, of course, they'll have your head if you criticize. Like Arafat said, "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad"!!! And the Iranian faithfuil; "Death to Israel, death to America"!
My words aren't mistreatment. They are meant to save lives and encourage people to leave a deathstyle (opposite of lifestyle).
A fourteen year old is much more like an adult than a child. A three year old placing his or her competing baby brother or sister in the garbage can is much different than an adult putting a child in the trash. A fourteen year old is close to adulthood. They should face penalties that are very adult-like.

reply from: KaylieBee

Hate speech is against the law here. =)

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh please. Sorry, but Yoda himself said that there was nothing wrong with saying exactly what comes to mind because... actually, he didn't give a reason. He just wanted to say proabort more.

reply from: scopia1982

I have to disagree. A 14 yr old is most certainly still a child, should know better than a 3 yr old. But a child none the less. This is why the law places their care and custody with their parent or legal guardian until they reach 18. They cant sign legal contracts, own property vote or even get medical treatment without parentel consent. They may have the body of an adult, but are still children. IMO teenagers shouldnt be having sex, because sex is an adult act and with that go responsbiltys and consequnces. Teenagers are not emotionally ready to handle them. I speak from experience when I say this. Instead od focusing on punishing the girl and she needs to answer for this. We need to focus on the WHY.

reply from: KaylieBee

Wait, so what are you saying?
The hate speech laws prevent people like holocaust deniers from being too public and influencing children etc. Do you think that's bad?

reply from: scopia1982

Wait, so what are you saying?
The hate speech laws prevent people like holocaust deniers from being too public and influencing children etc. Do you think that's bad?
I think this nation has gone to the toilet, but I would rather live here in the USA than under any socialist/communist type government that restricts my freedom of speech. Now it doesnt apply to slander/liable or shouting fire in a crowded theatre. But I condemn censorship in any way shape or form. Hate speech is repulsive to me, but you can always turn the radio/tv off or leave if you dont like whats being said. God Bless America!!

reply from: KaylieBee

Canada isn't communist in anyway.

reply from: scopia1982

More like a socialist nation. whatever type of government I will not live where I am told what i can and cant say. Censorship is wrong. I still rather live here

reply from: KaylieBee

And I still rather live here than the USA. Honestly, I think the hate speech case only applies in the most extreme of cases, like when they want to get rid of crazies who try to say the holocaust wasn't that bad.

reply from: carolemarie

Nowhere in the article did it say the girl was raped. Even if she was, why would that make it okay to put a baby in the trash?
A pregnant teenager at 14 has enough sense to get some information in the nine months they have to cope with the situtation. Unless she is mentally challenged, then she knows how to google search for information! My eight year old knows how to do that! Heck, he taught me how to text chacha for answers.....
I WAS pregnant at 15, and knew that throwing a baby in the trash was not an option no matter how scared I was. And I figured that out without a computer or a cell phone!
There is just no excuse for putting a baby in the trash and there is no way you can justify that. Charges should be filed because what she did was child abuse and criminally negligent. Being 14 doesn't give her a pass on doing whatever she wants just because she was scared.

reply from: scopia1982

Of course she should be charged, but she is still a child. We have problem in this nation with children having children. Teenagers are still children or otherwise they would be given all of legal rights and responsibilites adults have. They need to invesitgate this girls homelife.

reply from: KaylieBee

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Someone on here said the father of the baby committed statutory rape on the girl.
No one is saying that putting the baby in the trash was ok.
Uh, or absolutely terrified. I once thought I was pregnant, and I was 22! Yet I was too afraid to face it and just waiting until my next pap smear for the automatic pregnancy test I was required to take. I was too scared to get one myself. I can only imagine how scary it would be for a 14 year old.
Doing something when calm and doing something when absolutely terrified are two different things.
YOU are not every girl. Every person reacts differently.
I don't think I'm trying to justify it. I'm trying to explain this girl's mindset and why she is not a criminal. I can honestly say a 14 year old is not fully responsible for their actions. That's why they're not a legal adult: they are a child.
Uh, yes it does.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Wait, so what are you saying?
The hate speech laws prevent people like holocaust deniers from being too public and influencing children etc. Do you think that's bad?
I'm saying that hate-speech IS allowed on here, but only if it's the big-wigs on here that are saying it. Bash some homos, call women who have lots of sex sl-ts, and insult atheists. But call christianity crazy? Oh noes, you're a horrible hateful person!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Oh my! O.o

reply from: BossMomma

Yeah, it's so much better that the baby be brought to term and dumped in the trash can. (sarcasm)
You think it would be better to kill the child than to place the child in a trash can? I know a trash can is not the ideal place to be, but at least the child survived and there will be another day for that child. Your (sarcasm) is inappropriate.
And suppose the baby had died? Would the child who gave it birth be a murderer in your eyes?

reply from: carolemarie

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
The point isn't what I did, but was that being young and scared doesn't make you incapable of finding out information in 9 months. There are lots of pregnant teenagers in America and most of them manage to refrain from throwing their baby in the trash! Not all of them have abortions either.
You are young. At 14 would you have been unable to find out information? Even if you were scared? Would your ability to google search have left you? Would making a phone call been beyond your ability?

reply from: BossMomma

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby? But you are more sympathetic towards her? I suppose if a man lost his job and was scared and panicked because he believed no one would reach out to help put food on the table; you would be more sympathetic to him if he committed an armed robbery of a store than to the victim. So if he shot the store-owner but he recovered, maybe you believe the robber has paid for it mentally therefore he doesn't deserve any legal action against him.
You are much to easy on people who deliberately, intentionally inflect harm or death on others. There are other options available. Choosing to mistreat or kill others is not an option. Penalties must be imposed on those who mistreat others.
Odd how you claim to support children yet so readily condemn this child for her fearful actions. Or is a pregnant 14 year old a woman to you? A 14 year old is a child herself, at a difficult and unknowing age. You know nothing of this girl or her circumstances, only her offense. What was it in the bible that Jesus said of the prostitute the people were ready to stone to death? Judge not lest ye be judged for by those judgements shalt ye be judged and let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

reply from: BossMomma

Yes, an adult knows this, but we are talking about a 14 year old girl, someone who only really has an inkling of how her body works. We don't know if the girl was raped, pressured to do so by the child's father, a victim of incest or any background to explain why she chose that route.
Yet you believe that a 14 year old can make the reasonsed choice to choose abortion? If they are to young and irresponsible to know better than sticking a baby in the trash, they are to irresponsible to choose abortion with out a parent assisting them
And where do you recall me saying this? I actually support a parent's right to know.

reply from: BossMomma

Do you remember that she tried to kill the baby? But you are more sympathetic towards her? I suppose if a man lost his job and was scared and panicked because he believed no one would reach out to help put food on the table; you would be more sympathetic to him if he committed an armed robbery of a store than to the victim. So if he shot the store-owner but he recovered, maybe you believe the robber has paid for it mentally therefore he doesn't deserve any legal action against him.
The point os not that you would be without sympathy for the store clerk, but that you would reserve some sympathy for the fellow with the gun. Undoubtably this baby has had a truely traumatic experience, but we can be reasonably sure it'll get over it fairly quickly. That poor girl though is going to have to live with what she did for the rest of her life, something which I imagine will get worse as she gets older and she understands the magnitude of wht she did. She is deserving of sympathy too, and I say those of you who would deny it her are less humane than you night like to think
Presumably that doesn't extend to religious inspired bigotry and gay-bashing...
Words aren't illegal; such as saying Allah was one wicked Satan dude and sodomy is one extremely perverse act by very perverse people. Seriously, Allah IS Satan. Who else could write such evil stuff as is contained in the Quran? That's why we had 9/11 dude. Don't you know those who flew the planes into the buildings were all Allah worshippers. They praised him as they went about their demon possessed suicide flight. They thanked Allah for all the death they were about to cause. I can't imagine anything much more Satanic. Except, of course, they'll have your head if you criticize. Like Arafat said, "Jihad, Jihad, Jihad"!!! And the Iranian faithfuil; "Death to Israel, death to America"!
My words aren't mistreatment. They are meant to save lives and encourage people to leave a deathstyle (opposite of lifestyle).
A fourteen year old is much more like an adult than a child. A three year old placing his or her competing baby brother or sister in the garbage can is much different than an adult putting a child in the trash. A fourteen year old is close to adulthood. They should face penalties that are very adult-like.
So because a 14 year old is closer to adulthood than a toddler she clearly acted with intent to harm? What a crock of BS.

reply from: BossMomma

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.

reply from: Caidenbug

carolemarie has made a mistake in her life. Maybe because she didn't have all the facts that prolifers are trying to get out to these women or maybe another reason. I don't know and I don't really need to know. I don't know her but Im proud of her growth in this area of her life. She knows that now and wants to help other women from doing the samething. That was a really low blow.

reply from: BossMomma

I've been debating abortion for over 6 years hun, and every board I visit there are one or two pro-lifers who "killed a baby" themself. It wasn't a low blow, it was a statement highlighting her hypocrisy. Somehow she felt that abortion is a viable option and used it, yet she condemns others who do the same and don't feel guilty.

reply from: Caidenbug

My point is people change she realizes now that what she did is wrong. So she is trying to help other women for two reasons. 1. to save the babies 2. to help the women from going through what she has. I feel that we should have compassion for those that have had an abortion and now regret it. I can only imagine how bad those comments hurt her, kinda like reliving the event all over again. We are to forgive one another. All im trying to say is she regrets it and has owned up to it can't we forgive her? I know Im willing too.

reply from: carolemarie

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.
I was prochoice when I had the abortions.
I became prolife years and years later.
I work to help women have real choices, abortion and trash cans are not good options for the baby or the women. If you care about women, you wouldn't support the slaughter of their children.

reply from: BossMomma

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.
I was prochoice when I had the abortions.
I became prolife years and years later.
I work to help women have real choices, abortion and trash cans are not good options for the baby or the women. If you care about women, you wouldn't support the slaughter of their children.
So now that you're done utilizing your right to choose you want to take it away from everyone? Sorry, I'm pro-choice, chose to carry my pregnancies to term and deliver the babies yet I've been called baby killer, pro-abort, told I have "innocent blood on my hands" yet you actually aborted/ killed your children and you can come off lily white? Sorry but your type is the worst kind in my opinion, you found it ok to kill then you turn your coat and condemn others for it. You supported the slaughter of your own children, don't tell me about supporting women.

reply from: carolemarie

I've been debating abortion for over 6 years hun, and every board I visit there are one or two pro-lifers who "killed a baby" themself. It wasn't a low blow, it was a statement highlighting her hypocrisy. Somehow she felt that abortion is a viable option and used it, yet she condemns others who do the same and don't feel guilty.
I am forbidden to change my mind on abortion? WOW!
Does this only work one way or could I change from prolife to prochoice without being a hypocrite?
I refuse to support something that is detrimental to women and ends the lives of children.
If you apply that logic to anything else it makes no sense.

reply from: BossMomma

I see no reason to forgive what I don't see as wrong, she need not seek my approval, acceptance or, forgiveness and she shouldn't need yours either. If she wanted to save babies she should have started with her own.

reply from: BossMomma

I've been debating abortion for over 6 years hun, and every board I visit there are one or two pro-lifers who "killed a baby" themself. It wasn't a low blow, it was a statement highlighting her hypocrisy. Somehow she felt that abortion is a viable option and used it, yet she condemns others who do the same and don't feel guilty.
I am forbidden to change my mind on abortion? WOW!
Does this only work one way or could I change from prolife to prochoice without being a hypocrite?
I refuse to support something that is detrimental to women and ends the lives of children.
If you apply that logic to anything else it makes no sense.
You certainly supported it when it suited you.

reply from: Caidenbug

was that last post towards me? Cause im only trying to help you with your point of helping women from going through what you have. I really was not trying to upset you. I really do think its great that you have changed to prolife.

reply from: Caidenbug

Im not saying that she needs any of that from anyone. But I am willing to offer it to her. She is aware of what she has done there is no need to throw it in her face. It would be different if she didn't feel any regret, but she does. I know that when I make a mistake I want people to forgive me and give me a second chance.

reply from: BossMomma

I see a need when she is trying to take choice away from me, my daughter, my sisters, my female friends when she herself used that same choice to kill her own "unborn babies". Not everyone feels guilty, in fact most that do feel that way after a hefty dose of guilt tripping from pro-lifers.

reply from: carolemarie

I am sorry that you have been the target of name calling. It isn't very helpful, but people get caught up in the rhetoric and forget that real people are behind the screen names.
I get abuse from the prolife side all the time. Go back and read some of the threads on this very board if you don't believe me.
I want abortion ended because it is wrong and it hurts women and children.

reply from: carolemarie

I am also against the choice of prostitution and will try to take that choice away from all females.
Some choices are bad, abortion is one of them.

reply from: BossMomma

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.

reply from: carolemarie

No, it wasn't directed to you.

reply from: Caidenbug

When you choose to take a stand in anything you will have name calling. Some people are just to closed minded to realize that some people can change when given a second chance. You know first hand how it effects women so you are one of the best to help stop abortion.

reply from: Caidenbug

Killing a human life is not hurting anyone??!!! The babies heart starts to beat at 12 wks. and by 10 wks has all hes/her organs. What about the babies that are aborted and are still alive and stab them to death or birth the baby halfway then shove a knife into the skull? If you dont want to get pregnant then dont have sex or do what needs to be done to prevent it.

reply from: carolemarie

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.[/q
Abortion hurt me deeply, each year hundreds of women seek help in coping with their abortions. I find it highly insulting that you have the gall to dismiss our pain as non existant because you find it inconvenient. That is such a sexist and bigoted attitude.

reply from: Caidenbug

Do pro-choicers come here just to start fights? If your pro-choice why would you go to a pro-life forum? I really don't understand. I'm sorry that people are not forgiving. We all make mistakes, but you become a better person when you learn from them.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, to start fights, to smear people, to shock people, and just generally amuse themselves. That's what you've got to learn to deal with in the real world, so just consider this a boot camp for prolife activists.

reply from: scopia1982

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.
No post abortion depression? I was FORCED to have an abortion 8 yrs ago. Literally forced. before that I was a happy and healthy 17 old girl. the depression and PTSD didnt come till after the forced abortion. Why is that the proaborts dont want to address the issue of forced /coerced abortions? See no evil hear no evil?

reply from: yoda

It's an evil argument from start to finish.
Depression is generally a temporary disability, so it really should not even be mentioned as a justification to electively kill an innocent baby.
But depression over an abortion is generally a permanent disability. You cannot reverse an abortion, so it is a permanent problem. Any woman who has PPS can usually get over it, and adoption is always available if she doesn't want to raise the child.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You live in a horrible place. You don't have free speech laws there. The government can tell you what you can say, and I dare say, even think. You can't say something is a bad idea? Can't say you are a holocaust denier, can't say religion stinks, can't say certain misuses of a person's body is damaging? You can't have an opinion? The government has got it all figured out for you? ...and you are going to be the politically correct person that they want you to be. I suppose us Pro-Lifers should be locked up for saying things that hurt an abortion minded couples feelings. Heck, the Pro-Lifers should be locked up for saying things against a woman's RIGHT to choose. Are you in a communist or socialist society? Is everyone the cookie cutter image of the other? Does everyone think, feel and believe the same thing? Does everyone toe the party line? Are you guy's robots?

reply from: CharlesD

How about exercising choice when deciding whether or not to have sex? Nobody is forcing you to have sex. Nobody is forcing you to get pregnant. Pregnancy is the natural end result of sex, so if you choose to have sex, you have to face the consequences. There are plenty of ways to avoid getting pregnant before the act, so if you were careless enough to get pregnant when you didn't want to, is that the baby's fault? Don't punish the baby for your own carelessness. Folks can argue rape and the mother's life all they want, but that majority of abortions aren't done for those reasons. Most of them are because someone doesn't want to be inconvenienced with a pregnancy or a baby. Well, I'm sorry if you are inconvenienced, but you should have thought about that before having sex. There are plenty of parents out there who would gladly take that baby off your hands if you don't kill it before we get the chance. Exercise choice in the bedroom and you won't have to in the hospital room.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No, she would still not be a murderer in my eyes.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

On a related comparison, a 12 week fetus is closer to pre-existence than birth, so it must be ok to revert it to that pre-existing state. BS.

reply from: sweet

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.
No post abortion depression? I was FORCED to have an abortion 8 yrs ago. Literally forced. before that I was a happy and healthy 17 old girl. the depression and PTSD didnt come till after the forced abortion. Why is that the proaborts dont want to address the issue of forced /coerced abortions? See no evil hear no evil?i'm VERY sorry to hear that. i still believe there is hope for you to heal from this.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.
Ahh, the pro-lifer isn't allowed to change her opinion on abortion after experiencing one. Like for example, if I'd never had peanut butter but then had some and realised I hated it. According to your logic, I'm not allowed to change my mind. Or perhaps I've never been raped and don't think it's a big deal or that it should be illegal. But then I experience a rape and realise how horrible it is. Again, according to your logic I shouldn't have the right to change my mind.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I've been debating abortion for over 6 years hun, and every board I visit there are one or two pro-lifers who "killed a baby" themself. It wasn't a low blow, it was a statement highlighting her hypocrisy. Somehow she felt that abortion is a viable option and used it, yet she condemns others who do the same and don't feel guilty.
You just missed a major point. She FELT it was an option, aka, it happened in the PAST. She certainly wouldn't get an abortion now, and sometimes it takes going through a painful experience to realise how terrible something really is. She also doesn't think it was the "right choice" for her either! She thinks it was a terrible choice.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It hurts no one,
Except the CHILD
So? Why does that make it ok to KILL it? Some born people can't feel pain; is it ok to kill them? Of course not.
And why does medicating it first make it ok to kill it? It doesn't. No matter how painlessly you do it, you are still KILLING a human being.
AND after an abortion.
Uh, I knew pro-choicers who admitted that post abortion stress exists, they just wanted to lump it in with ALL post traumatic stress disorders. The condition is completely legitimate: abortion is a stressful situation and can be traumatic, and so afterwards some women suffer. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
I want abortion illegal so forced abortion does not force women to try drastic measures. To alleviate their guilt; to replace the child they were forced to kill.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Pro-choicers often don't believe the unborn is a baby or even a child, despite the fact that those are both completely legitimate words to describe ANY offspring of a human. Being inside the uterus doesn't mean it's not a baby.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Mostly yes. Personally I came here to learn, because I was on the edge of my beliefs.
Again, to learn, to fight, to change.
That's very true.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know what she would be charged with, neglient homicide probably, but she would have been guilty of causing the death of that child.
She was able to get up, clean up, put the child in the trash container and go home, surely she could have called 911 and said, there is a baby in the bathroom in the trash. Not doing so shows depraved indifference.

reply from: carolemarie

This board advertises itself as a place to debate abortion, to meet and talk to people on both sides of the issue.
So prochoicers are invited.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You live in a horrible place.
Hate speech is a crime in the USA.
Hate speech is not protected by free speech laws.
Having an opinion and BASHING someone's thoughts are two completely different things. Calling homosexuals "dirty perverted sinners who should all die and burn in hell" is hate speech. Saying you disagree with homosexuality is having an opinion.
If you say it in a hateful way, yeah.
If you say it in a hateful way, yeah.
It's US law man. In fact, we have had semi-restricted free-speech rights ever since Bush called upon the "War on Terror" after 9/11.
In the 1950's USA, yes, people were like that. America is not excluded from this condition.

reply from: yoda

Proaborts are not THAT stupid. They KNOW the truth, and just sink deep into denial as a way to avoid facing the truth.
Yes, they KNOW that "the unborn" IS a baby, a child, and a human being.
They just won't admit it to others.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If the baby had died, I'd say Unintended Manslaughter, if anything at all. But children cannot be tried anyway, so what's the point? Depraved indifference, or absolute terror.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

lol, not what I was told when I first got here! I was told I was here only because the owner of the board was being weak about letting "proaborts" onto the forum in "a vain hope they change their views".

reply from: yoda

And therein lies the fatal flaw of all "hate speech" laws...... saying things in a "hateful way" is a totally subjective judgment. That puts justice in the hands of the subjective opinion of some very biased people.

reply from: carolemarie

WHAT???
Children are tried all the time, we have a juvenile court system and some are tried as adults depending on what they did.
14 years olds are sitting in institutions all over the country.
You can be locked up till you are 18 and beyond.

reply from: carolemarie

That was an accident that I tried to fix and didn't. Sorry.
Hey LCR--explain that tag under your name....seriously... do you actually believe that giving birth is the expression of a womans sexuality?
I find that tag offensive on so many levels.....what if you are barren? What if you adopt rather than give birth?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yes, I feel giving birth is AN expression of a woman's sexuality. But so is oral sex. Or anal. Or BDSM. So why are you offended? If you read the whole quote and visit the site you will realise that it's actually all about freeing women from the false idea that birth "must" be painful. So please get all of the information before making accusations. If you're offended by childbirth being painless then I think you need to read the stories on that site.

reply from: carolemarie

It says the crowning and supreme expression of a womans sexuality......
not a part of it.....

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I can use brackets to edit out that part and change it, but I thought people on here were smart enough to figure that out. You don't believe birth can be sexy?

reply from: BossMomma

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.

reply from: carolemarie

Ummmm, NO the one thing it isn't is sexy. ...,

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.
Did you read the site? Clearly not. It is possible to give birth not only painlessly but also with NO medication. I URGE you to read the site.
Why would a pro-lifer want birth to remain a punishing ordeal? One of the biggest things pro-choicers complain about is how horrible birth is. If it was possible for a woman to give birth painlessly and under her own power, don't you think that would be a GOOD thing?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Ummmm, NO the one thing it isn't is sexy. ...,
I think it is You should read the site; women orgasm during birth!! Complete extacy as their child slides into the world, painlessly and into the mother's loving arms.

reply from: yoda

Interesting....... the women who have given birth say it's not sexy, the woman who has not say it is.......... interesting.......

reply from: 4given

Proaborts are not THAT stupid. They KNOW the truth, and just sink deep into denial as a way to avoid facing the truth.
Yes, they KNOW that "the unborn" IS a baby, a child, and a human being.
They just won't admit it to others.
Right. That would show them for who they truly are.. open the many justifications given (not a baby or human child included) to abort. Ask a child.

reply from: BossMomma

Actually the heart starts beating at 4 weeks and all organs are in place at 12 weeks. Infants born alive as a result of abortion are protected by law and as to the much maligned D&X or dilation and extraction (partial birth abortion) that method is rarely used. Contraceptives fail sometimes, I'm 20 wks pregnant and was on the Depo shot while my bf used condoms. I refuse to give up sex to appease your obsession with the fetus, I think most other adults including married couples who don't want children agree.

reply from: BossMomma

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.[/q
Abortion hurt me deeply, each year hundreds of women seek help in coping with their abortions. I find it highly insulting that you have the gall to dismiss our pain as non existant because you find it inconvenient. That is such a sexist and bigoted attitude.
No, it is not sexist, it is a low tolerance for BS. You used abortion more than once from what I gather as you refered to your experience with the plural abortions. Obviously it didn't hurt you the first time as you continued to use it. If you regret your choice then you made a bad choice, a poorly thought out choice, that's not my fault or anyone elses fault but your own. Most women that I know have aborted don't think anything of it, or they feel relieved that the pregnancy is over.

reply from: BossMomma

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.
No post abortion depression? I was FORCED to have an abortion 8 yrs ago. Literally forced. before that I was a happy and healthy 17 old girl. the depression and PTSD didnt come till after the forced abortion. Why is that the proaborts dont want to address the issue of forced /coerced abortions? See no evil hear no evil?
How were you forced to have an abortion? I don't see that as possible as a patient has to concent to surgery.

reply from: 4given

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.
I know I shouldn't respond to others conversations.. Wow. That doesn't sound sexy to me. I get the idea of expressing sexuality through childbirth though. 16 hours? Agonizing? Our longest labor was 4 hours and that was the 1st. No obscenities or name-calling or call for medication. I would not refer to it as agonizing. 2nd was posterior, which was much more intense- A lot of prayer through contractions and thankfulness. Different for everyone I know. BM, do you take any herbs? Red raspberry for example?

reply from: BossMomma

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.
Ahh, the pro-lifer isn't allowed to change her opinion on abortion after experiencing one. Like for example, if I'd never had peanut butter but then had some and realised I hated it. According to your logic, I'm not allowed to change my mind. Or perhaps I've never been raped and don't think it's a big deal or that it should be illegal. But then I experience a rape and realise how horrible it is. Again, according to your logic I shouldn't have the right to change my mind.
I for one love peanut butter, your view of it has no bearing on mine. Changing one's mind about something is fine, trying to remove a right that you(in general) used just because you didn't like it from other women is not fine, it's hypocrisy.

reply from: BossMomma

I've been debating abortion for over 6 years hun, and every board I visit there are one or two pro-lifers who "killed a baby" themself. It wasn't a low blow, it was a statement highlighting her hypocrisy. Somehow she felt that abortion is a viable option and used it, yet she condemns others who do the same and don't feel guilty.
You just missed a major point. She FELT it was an option, aka, it happened in the PAST. She certainly wouldn't get an abortion now, and sometimes it takes going through a painful experience to realise how terrible something really is. She also doesn't think it was the "right choice" for her either! She thinks it was a terrible choice.
No, I didn't miss the point at all. She didn't make the right choice for herself and so wishes to remove that choice from everyone based solely on her own experience, never mind that other women might not be suffering her so called Post Abortion Depression.

reply from: scopia1982

It hurts no one, at the time 90 % of abortions are done the embryo/fetus can't even feel pain and during most late term abortion the fetus is killed via medication before being removed. Woman harmed as a result of complications would face many of those same complications at birth. Any surgery has risks and I don't buy into "post abortion depression" that is usually related to idiotic pro-life rhetoric. I want abortion to stay legal so that forced gestation does not force women to try drastic measures. No one forced you to carry to term, don't force anyone else.
No post abortion depression? I was FORCED to have an abortion 8 yrs ago. Literally forced. before that I was a happy and healthy 17 old girl. the depression and PTSD didnt come till after the forced abortion. Why is that the proaborts dont want to address the issue of forced /coerced abortions? See no evil hear no evil?
How were you forced to have an abortion? I don't see that as possible as a patient has to concent to surgery.
Very simple BM, my ex told me get an abortion or a bullet in the head. Being 17 young and dumb and in fear I went to the clinic thinking once I told them what was going on would call the police. Nope,he put the money on the counter and the abortionist was a friend of his mother . I was on the table , when I told them I didnt want to do this, the abortionist told me it was too late to "change my mind". So nurses held me while he put a mask over my face to knock me out. When I came too, they had done the "favor" for a family friend. Now this man was a private practice doctor. He provides more than just abortion services. Most people in this town dont know the truth of what he does. By the way this happened in Tennesee a state that requires parental consent, so at 17 I legally couldnt have consented to anything.

reply from: yoda

I don't suppose it might ever occur to you that she wishes to protect the lives of unborn children, rather than "remove rights"?
No, I didn't think so.......

reply from: BossMomma

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.
I know I shouldn't respond to others conversations.. Wow. That doesn't sound sexy to me. I get the idea of expressing sexuality through childbirth though. 16 hours? Agonizing? Our longest labor was 4 hours and that was the 1st. No obscenities or name-calling or call for medication. I would not refer to it as agonizing. 2nd was posterior, which was much more intense- A lot of prayer through contractions and thankfulness. Different for everyone I know. BM, do you take any herbs? Red raspberry for example?
The above mentioned birth experience was my very first time. I went into natural labor and with insistance of my ass hole husband I tried to do it without pain meds, which I did giving birth to a 10lb 8oz boy. My second experience with the more sensitive supportive boyfriend was an induced labor at 39 weeks because it was discovered that I don't fully dilate lasted only 5 hours from 4am to 9:15am, with pain meds I slept through the labor and was awakened to start pushing, five minutes later my 8lb baby girl was born rather peacefully. I look forward to this birth at a birthing center, I'm going to try the water birth in a tub.

reply from: yoda

Then you have grounds for a potentially very profitable lawsuit.

reply from: scopia1982

Then you have grounds for a potentially very profitable lawsuit.
Yoda I have looked into that , but what I cannot put a price on a human life. And where would the proceeds come from? Money he gained from performing abortions. Blood Money.

reply from: Caidenbug

I agree yoda, we are protecting rights of the unborn. Women still have the right to place the child up for adoption. So we are really just trying to give everyone their rights.

reply from: scopia1982

Typical Proabort. Doesnt want to believe that women are coerced or downright forced into it. I believe there was a case in FLorida similar to mine that made it the federal courts. The woman was nearly butchered. I believe it is JaneDoevAware Woman for Choice.

reply from: scopia1982

http://forerunner.com/fyi/law/roe-v-aw/index.html

Here is a Link that will give you an index of information pertaining to this case. So Spin forced abortions do happen. And this case is much more severe than what happened to me

reply from: carolemarie

There is no such thing as the right to kill another human being. I care about women and the babies and support options that let both have their lives! Even if abortion worked out for me, it still would be wrong. I didn't have the right to kill my children, and neither does anyone else.
I oppose violence in all forms, and especially against the innocent.

reply from: yoda

Blood money can be put to good use saving the lives of other unborn children.
That would pretty much clean the blood off of it, IMO.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Actually the heart starts beating at 4 weeks and all organs are in place at 12 weeks.
I've seen sources stating that it's actually 9 weeks, not 12. That's actually the latest date I've ever heard for Fetushood. That IS what we're talking about here. When the unborn has all its organs, it's called a fetus. That happens anywhere from 8 to 12 weeks if you look at all the sources.
Yet you haven't aborted; why? No one is asking you to give up sex; have as much sex as unprotected or protected and with as many people as you like. But if you end up making a new person, you owe it to bring it to term. You don't have to keep it.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. But the proaborts don't want EVERYONE to have rights.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.
I know I shouldn't respond to others conversations.. Wow. That doesn't sound sexy to me. I get the idea of expressing sexuality through childbirth though. 16 hours? Agonizing? Our longest labor was 4 hours and that was the 1st. No obscenities or name-calling or call for medication. I would not refer to it as agonizing. 2nd was posterior, which was much more intense- A lot of prayer through contractions and thankfulness. Different for everyone I know. BM, do you take any herbs? Red raspberry for example?
PLEASE click on the link in my signature!!!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There is no such thing as the right to kill another human being. I care about women and the babies and support options that let both have their lives! Even if abortion worked out for me, it still would be wrong. I didn't have the right to kill my children, and neither does anyone else.
I oppose violence in all forms, and especially against the innocent.
If you're opposed to violence of all forms, then why do you approve of the violence of stereotypical birth? It doesn't have to be that way, it can be peaceful.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't find giving birth violent....
it is a natural process, it involves some discomfort, but really that is minimized with pain medicine.
It was messy, and cerainly not sexy.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Please read the site in my signature. We can't really have a conversation about this until then.

reply from: carolemarie

I did read it....to each their own thing...but I think she is kind of nuts....
FYi do you have children? I was thinking that you didn't yet.
I am not really inot the whole earth mother thing. I don't find giving birth sexy or fun, but it wasn't a horrible ordeal either.
I think I like adopting the best, you just go pick up the baby, no getting fat orno morning sickness, just pickup and take home the baby. Best birth experience I ever had.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There are more stories on there; this is not just one woman. I'm just saying that birth does not HAVE to be a painful experience, and that a woman CAN consider it to be the crowning experience of her sexuality. I happen to believe that, and I'm very interested in achieving that goal myself. Thirdly, I figured a site extolling the WONDERS of birth on a pro-life site (which is obviously all about women giving birth) would go over well, since most pro-lifers love birth, babies, and the process of bringing that baby into the world. Or so I thought.

reply from: Draiocht

I just want to know one thing...who's going after these men that knock these girls up? Who's picketing THEIR houses and disrupting THEIR lives?
Oh...right...
The males are only guest stars until they actually (claim to) want the kids. It isn't about their part until it comes to forcing women to breed. Silly me.

reply from: sweet

the men probably thought the girls aborted.
forcing? that's what abortion does. a baby in the trash shouldn't be a big deal to prochoice or should the baby have been aborted instead? in my opinion, if it's OK to kill the Baby on one hand, then why care what happens with any baby/mother/father? well, things shouldn't be this way - we shouldn't ever kill babies - we should care for everyone.

reply from: KaylieBee

You live in a horrible place. You don't have free speech laws there. The government can tell you what you can say, and I dare say, even think. You can't say something is a bad idea? Can't say you are a holocaust denier, can't say religion stinks, can't say certain misuses of a person's body is damaging? You can't have an opinion? The government has got it all figured out for you? ...and you are going to be the politically correct person that they want you to be. I suppose us Pro-Lifers should be locked up for saying things that hurt an abortion minded couples feelings. Heck, the Pro-Lifers should be locked up for saying things against a woman's RIGHT to choose. Are you in a communist or socialist society? Is everyone the cookie cutter image of the other? Does everyone think, feel and believe the same thing? Does everyone toe the party line? Are you guy's robots?
I live in Canada, not 1984, lol. Canada often tops the list of countries with the best rights and freedoms for its people worldwide. There's a large difference between hate and an opinion.

reply from: KaylieBee

But you aborted it, which you're now against, so you can't really defend your past self on that one.
Ah, the pro-lifer is always permitted an abortion so long as every other woman is denied one. You can always know a preacher's sins by what he condemns on Sunday.
Ahh, the pro-lifer isn't allowed to change her opinion on abortion after experiencing one. Like for example, if I'd never had peanut butter but then had some and realised I hated it. According to your logic, I'm not allowed to change my mind. Or perhaps I've never been raped and don't think it's a big deal or that it should be illegal. But then I experience a rape and realise how horrible it is. Again, according to your logic I shouldn't have the right to change my mind.
She had three, actually. I believe you were even appalled by that when you were pro-'choice'.

reply from: KaylieBee

Oh, by here I meant where I am, physically, my lovely country.
It's strange, but the older I get, the more I want to live here permanently. Probably the opposite coast, though. I hear they have great weed there.

reply from: KaylieBee

When I was 14 I was even more of a moron than I currently am. I would have killed myself, and the fetus along with it, if I had become pregnant, most likely. At least, that's what I always thought I would do if I had. Fortunately, I never went all the way until I was much older, so I never risked it.

reply from: KaylieBee

I bet if you did a google search you'd find a group of men who consider it so. I know there's a pregnancy fetish, at the very least.

reply from: BossMomma

Have you ever given birth? I personally didn't find 16 hours of agonizing contractions, sweating, chills, screaming of obsenities and begging for pain killers to be sexy, nor did I find the half hour of pushing that resulted in an episiotomy before the birth of my child to be sexy. Labor and delivery are back breaking agonizing work unless you got an epideral and a c-section.
Did you read the site? Clearly not. It is possible to give birth not only painlessly but also with NO medication. I URGE you to read the site.
Why would a pro-lifer want birth to remain a punishing ordeal? One of the biggest things pro-choicers complain about is how horrible birth is. If it was possible for a woman to give birth painlessly and under her own power, don't you think that would be a GOOD thing?
I have enjoyed painless labor, in fact I snoozed through my last labor and woke up long enough to push the baby into the world, I love pain meds. It's the pitocin that kicked up my contractions that kinda harshed my buzz. My last baby was a planned induction at 39 weeks, we had to get her out before she got too much bigger otherwise it would have been a c-section. Due to a tilted pelvis I don't quite dilate to 10 cm's. Every delivery has required an epesiotomy which is rather uncomfortable for a while.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't suppose it might ever occur to you that she wishes to protect the lives of unborn children, rather than "remove rights"?
No, I didn't think so.......
If she wanted to protect unborn children she would have started with her own, three of which were aborted. Odd how a woman can abort three times before deciding that abortion is bad for her. No one removed her rights, I'll be damned if anyone's removing mine.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Painless UNMEDICATED birth.

reply from: BossMomma

There is no such thing as the right to kill another human being. I care about women and the babies and support options that let both have their lives! Even if abortion worked out for me, it still would be wrong. I didn't have the right to kill my children, and neither does anyone else.
I oppose violence in all forms, and especially against the innocent.
So are you a vegan? Animals are killed violently everyday to supply your table. Are you anti-death penalty? Anti-war? You had the right to terminate all three pregnancies, as do I and every other woman. If you don't like abortion, stop aborting.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's the question I keep wanting to ask people who claim their pro-life stance is a "lifestyle".

reply from: BossMomma

That's what makes me laugh about men opposing abortion, if they were more careful about whose crotch they aimed their sperm abortion wouldn't be an issue. But most of them skeet their load where ever they please whether the woman wanted it or not then have the balls to get mad when she aborts.

reply from: BossMomma

lol screw that, I like my sedatol.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's what makes me laugh about men opposing abortion, if they were more careful about whose crotch they aimed their sperm abortion wouldn't be an issue. But most of them skeet their load where ever they please whether the woman wanted it or not then have the balls to get mad when she aborts.
Yeah, I agree. It does seem very hypocritical.

reply from: KaylieBee

There is no such thing as the right to kill another human being. I care about women and the babies and support options that let both have their lives! Even if abortion worked out for me, it still would be wrong. I didn't have the right to kill my children, and neither does anyone else.
I oppose violence in all forms, and especially against the innocent.
So are you a vegan? Animals are killed violently everyday to supply your table. Are you anti-death penalty? Anti-war? You had the right to terminate all three pregnancies, as do I and every other woman. If you don't like abortion, stop aborting.
Well, she's Christian, and there's a passage in the bible that says Humans have a right to lord over animals and treat them as they please, basically. So I imagine she's back it up with something like that.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

lol screw that, I like my sedatol.
What about other women?

reply from: BossMomma

lol screw that, I like my sedatol.
What about other women?
Hey, if they can find a way to cum during delivery more power to em, I'd just as soon sleep through it.

reply from: KaylieBee

That's what makes me laugh about men opposing abortion, if they were more careful about whose crotch they aimed their sperm abortion wouldn't be an issue. But most of them skeet their load where ever they please whether the woman wanted it or not then have the balls to get mad when she aborts.
If a pro-lifeman banged a pro-choice woman, would he be risking the lives of his precious babies ever single time? I think what you would and will do should the female become pregnant should always be discussed before the couple decides to have sex. To do otherwise is risking serious pain and drama.

reply from: BossMomma

That's what makes me laugh about men opposing abortion, if they were more careful about whose crotch they aimed their sperm abortion wouldn't be an issue. But most of them skeet their load where ever they please whether the woman wanted it or not then have the balls to get mad when she aborts.
If a pro-lifeman banged a pro-choice woman, would he be risking the lives of his precious babies ever single time? I think what you would and will do should the female become pregnant should always be discussed before the couple decides to have sex. To do otherwise is risking serious pain and drama.
I agree, I always made it clear that I don't abort, if you knock me up you better hope I miscarry cause I will hit you for that child support. If he chose to have sex after that warning he made his choice.

reply from: carolemarie

I bet if you did a google search you'd find a group of men who consider it so. I know there's a pregnancy fetish, at the very least.
no doubt..

reply from: carolemarie

I don't oppose or object to the site. I do kind of resent the reducing of women to no more than breeding stock. There is a whole mindset that the role of women is to be a mother. Not that I am saying you believe that or support it, but this site seems to promote the greatest goal is to be a mom.
I think it is great to be a mom, but you can be a fullfilled and happy woman without being a mom. There are other paths to follow in life and I don't think women should be regulated to only the mommy track.

reply from: scopia1982

Why should he have to pay child support? (tic) So if you want to abort he should have absolutely no say so in the matter of his child, but if you 'choose' to carry he is all of a sudden obligated to live by your choice and pay you money? Unbelievable! I will never understand left wing liberal logic. Personally I think a man should have some say on what happens to his child before birth, be able to go court get an injunction to stop an abortion and upon birth if hes proved to be fit, granted sole custody of his child. Guess who would pay support then? You.
P.s I dont advocate men not supporting there children. Just trying to point out how stupid our legal system is.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't suppose it might ever occur to you that she wishes to protect the lives of unborn children, rather than "remove rights"?
No, I didn't think so.......
If she wanted to protect unborn children she would have started with her own, three of which were aborted. Odd how a woman can abort three times before deciding that abortion is bad for her. No one removed her rights, I'll be damned if anyone's removing mine.
All I can say is better late than never, and I wasn't a woman. I was a teenage girl unable to work legally, unable to vote or drive a car. I was a minor child.

reply from: scopia1982

Im very 'prochoice" to the choices a woman should have in childbirth. If she wonts no pain med and to scream at the top of her lungs obscenties you never knew existed thats her right. If she wants to be numb from the neck down she should not be looked on as a failure. When I had my son I had a blessed epidural that for me made it a better experience for me until I had to push for 3 hours because a stubborn little boy decided to face up instead of down. I have noticed on alot of birthing method site and in play groups alot of competion goes on between women. If you dont breastfeed youre lacking if you had an epidural or a csection you failed the task of childbirth. I eventually want to go back to school to become a CNM so that I can help women have the type of birth experience they want to have.

reply from: carolemarie

I am against the death penalty, but I eat meat
.
I hate war, but acknowledge that we have to defend our borders from
terrorist, and as for the evil people who flew planes into NYC, hunt them down a
and lock them up forever.

reply from: BossMomma

Why should he have to pay child support? (tic) So if you want to abort he should have absolutely no say so in the matter of his child, but if you 'choose' to carry he is all of a sudden obligated to live by your choice and pay you money? Unbelievable! I will never understand left wing liberal logic. Personally I think a man should have some say on what happens to his child before birth, be able to go court get an injunction to stop an abortion and upon birth if hes proved to be fit, granted sole custody of his child. Guess who would pay support then? You.
P.s I dont advocate men not supporting there children. Just trying to point out how stupid our legal system is.
Because I warned him ahead of time, he had the chance to forgo the sex that can create a child. It's my belief that behind every elective abortion is some man's carelessly laid seed. If men are going to protest abortion and try to take away that right then they had better show more concern for who they inseminate.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't suppose it might ever occur to you that she wishes to protect the lives of unborn children, rather than "remove rights"?
No, I didn't think so.......
If she wanted to protect unborn children she would have started with her own, three of which were aborted. Odd how a woman can abort three times before deciding that abortion is bad for her. No one removed her rights, I'll be damned if anyone's removing mine.
All I can say is better late than never, and I wasn't a woman. I was a teenage girl unable to work legally, unable to vote or drive a car. I was a minor child.
All three times? Obviously you didn't know how to keep your legs closed either. Isn't that what you pro-lifers say? If you don't want to be pregnant stop having sex?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Im very 'prochoice" to the choices a woman should have in childbirth. If she wonts no pain med and to scream at the top of her lungs obscenties you never knew existed thats her right. If she wants to be numb from the neck down she should not be looked on as a failure. When I had my son I had a blessed epidural that for me made it a better experience for me until I had to push for 3 hours because a stubborn little boy decided to face up instead of down. I have noticed on alot of birthing method site and in play groups alot of competion goes on between women. If you dont breastfeed youre lacking if you had an epidural or a csection you failed the task of childbirth. I eventually want to go back to school to become a CNM so that I can help women have the type of birth experience they want to have.
Please read the site in my signature. Unmedicated birth does not have to involve screaming obscenities from pain.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

See I didn't get that from the site at all. I got that the site promotes liberating women from pain in child birth, and that's it. I didn't get any of this "breeding" mindset thing.

reply from: BossMomma

So your not opposed to all violence, even recognize it's nessesity. Clearly your not opposed to animals, innocent lives that die by the millions to feed you all though there are non-violent alternatives. You don't oppose the men, women and, children killed as casualties of war but Goddess forbid a woman dispose of an unwanted embryo, as you did.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That unwanted embryo is a human being who has not committed any crimes and only done what it is supposed to do with no mal-intent.

reply from: carolemarie

See I didn't get that from the site at all. I got that the site promotes liberating women from pain in child birth, and that's it. I didn't get any of this "breeding" mindset thing.
That is probably me just being paranoid....side effect of being a feminist.

reply from: BossMomma

And the woman who aborts means no mal-intent either, she simply refuses to gestate. The woman has not committed a crime, she has excercised her right to bodily autonomy.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Uh, KILLING another person is mal-intent.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

See I didn't get that from the site at all. I got that the site promotes liberating women from pain in child birth, and that's it. I didn't get any of this "breeding" mindset thing.
That is probably me just being paranoid....side effect of being a feminist.
I'm a feminist too, just not a feminazi.

reply from: carolemarie

I was 15, 16 and then 18. And I didn't see any other options at the time. If I could do it over again, I would take your advise.
I made terrible choices that have caused me lots of misery but those children lost their lives.
Abortion hurts women and children and I will work until it is stopped.

reply from: BossMomma

Not at all, for example if someone tried to kill my son or daughter, I'd kill them first if possible. No mal-intent, just a desire to protect my children. Mal-intent means malicious intent, I doubt a woman gets an abortion to be malicious to the fetus, she simply wants to be free of it.

reply from: BossMomma

I was 15, 16 and then 18. And I didn't see any other options at the time. If I could do it over again, I would take your advise.
I made terrible choices that have caused me lots of misery but those children lost their lives.
Abortion hurts women and children and I will work until it is stopped.
I had a job at the age of 16 making enough to emancipate and support myself if I chose. Only one of your abortions can be justified with the "I was underage and couldn't work" bit. At 18 you were legally a woman, what was your excuse then?

reply from: carolemarie

I don't have an excuse for any of the abortions. I admit that I did it and I was wrong, something that you seem to be unable to grasp.
If the law says it is legal to own another person, does that make it right?
While I wouldn't have owned a slave, I felt I had the right to kill a child. I don't
care that it was legal, it was still wrong, just as slavery was wrong.
And if you don't want a baby in your body, you can wait about 9 months and it won't be in there anymore.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Not at all, for example if someone tried to kill my son or daughter, I'd kill them first if possible. No mal-intent, just a desire to protect my children. Mal-intent means malicious intent, I doubt a woman gets an abortion to be malicious to the fetus, she simply wants to be free of it.
Malice is "desire to harm another". Malicious acts are caused by malice. A mother who wants an abortion desires to harm another, specifically, her unborn baby. Therefore, abortion is a malicious act; it is intended to do harm to another. Those hiring an abotionist to kill their child are guilty of first degree intentional homicide and should face the consequences appropriate for hiring a hit man.

reply from: BossMomma

Or it can be out in five minutes if I chose. Just because the choice is wrong for you doesn't give you a reason to condemn it for others. I support your right to choose, for good or ill it is your choice. I'm pro-choice and chose to bring my pregnancies to term as I'm doing now, that's my choice, not something I'm forced to do. If I didn't want to be pregnant, or be a mother, I could abort, that's my choice too.

reply from: carolemarie

That isn't true...women who have abortions do so because they have problems in their life that make a child seem to be impossible at this time. There is no dislike or hate for the child. They just don't want to be pregnant.....
It isn't the same thing as hiring a hitman.....
Your rhetoric is hateful and you seem to have no compassion for women in a bad situtation. If you can't care about her, you can't help her save her baby. Grow up

reply from: BossMomma

Not at all, for example if someone tried to kill my son or daughter, I'd kill them first if possible. No mal-intent, just a desire to protect my children. Mal-intent means malicious intent, I doubt a woman gets an abortion to be malicious to the fetus, she simply wants to be free of it.
Malice is "desire to harm another". Malicious acts are caused by malice. A mother who wants an abortion desires to harm another, specifically, her unborn baby. Therefore, abortion is a malicious act; it is intended to do harm to another. Those hiring an abotionist to kill their child are guilty of first degree intentional homicide and should face the consequences appropriate for hiring a hit man.
I'm sure if it was possible to remove a pre-viable fetus or embryo and keep it alive, the woman would choose to do so, unfortunantly such is impossible. The woman wishes to be unpregnant, that's all.

reply from: scopia1982

Please read the site in my signature. Unmedicated birth does not have to involve screaming obscenities from pain.

No it doesnt have to, but if she chooses vocalize thats ok too/

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is wrong because it is killing a baby. Killing babies is wrong. So yes, I have the right to oppose murder and help end anyone being able to choose it. That is the goal. To make killing babies against the law.
Then you can still be prochoice and bring your pregnancies to term. Since you wouldn't HAVE an abortion it isn't a right you would miss...

reply from: BossMomma

Please read the site in my signature. Unmedicated birth does not have to involve screaming obscenities from pain.

No it doesnt have to, but if she chooses vocalize thats ok too/
LOL I was very vocal, I think I invented curse words that night. My language could have made a church burst into flames.

reply from: scopia1982

You could also forgo sex. You cant lay all of the responsibilty and blame on the man. You choose to have sex you are just as responsible for the pregnancy as he is.
No method of BC is full proof many pregnancies do occur while a condom or the Pill is used. Sex is an adult freedom in this country and with freedom comes responsibilties and consequences. If both engage in the act than BOTH are responsible for the consequneces. Having an elective abortion because you think the pregnancy is inconvientant shows a lack of maturity. If you arent mature enough to handle the consequnces than one should not engage in such a adult activity.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

That isn't true...women who have abortions do so because they have problems in their life that make a child seem to be impossible at this time. There is no dislike or hate for the child. They just don't want to be pregnant.....
It isn't the same thing as hiring a hitman.....
Your rhetoric is hateful and you seem to have no compassion for women in a bad situtation. If you can't care about her, you can't help her save her baby. Grow up
It is exactly the same thing as hiring a hitman. I listened to one of the most prolific hitman explaining his trade. He believed the people he killed deserved it. He believed he was carrying out an important role. He did not necessarily hate the men he was killing, he was just doing what was "necessary".
You are big-time wrong carolmarie. The women need to understand that they are malicious killers.

reply from: BossMomma

That isn't true...women who have abortions do so because they have problems in their life that make a child seem to be impossible at this time. There is no dislike or hate for the child. They just don't want to be pregnant.....
It isn't the same thing as hiring a hitman.....
Your rhetoric is hateful and you seem to have no compassion for women in a bad situtation. If you can't care about her, you can't help her save her baby. Grow up
It is exactly the same thing as hiring a hitman. I listened to one of the most prolific hitman explaining his trade. He believed the people he killed deserved it. He believed he was carrying out an important role. He did not necessarily hate the men he was killing, he was just doing what was "necessary".
You are big-time wrong carolmarie. The women need to understand that they are malicious killers.
No, you need to understand that you're a hate spewing uneducated ignoramous.

reply from: KaylieBee

I was 15, 16 and then 18. And I didn't see any other options at the time. If I could do it over again, I would take your advise.
I made terrible choices that have caused me lots of misery but those children lost their lives.
Abortion hurts women and children and I will work until it is stopped.
Like whoring yourself out.
God, from what I hear the good ones make over 300K a year. Yeah, you could NEVER have kept the job making cash like that. Untaxed, too, since it's ~*~under the table~*~.

reply from: carolemarie

I wasn't a malicious killer and neither is any woman who gets an abortion.
It isn't the same thing at all!

reply from: BossMomma

You could also forgo sex. You cant lay all of the responsibilty and blame on the man. You choose to have sex you are just as responsible for the pregnancy as he is.
No method of BC is full proof many pregnancies do occur while a condom or the Pill is used. Sex is an adult freedom in this country and with freedom comes responsibilties and consequences. If both engage in the act than BOTH are responsible for the consequneces. Having an elective abortion because you think the pregnancy is inconvientant shows a lack of maturity. If you arent mature enough to handle the consequnces than one should not engage in such a adult activity.
I have mentioned time and again that I don't abort, I would carry the baby to term, raise it and, see that baby daddy does his part. I didn't get myself pregnant, I'm not supporting the kid by myself either. I am mature enough to deal with the result of sex, which I don't view as a consequence, I make sure the man is mature enough as well. If he's unsure of his response or states that he would not help in rearing his potential child, he goes home with his penis in his hand.

reply from: KaylieBee

take the spaces out of your quotes

reply from: scopia1982

I dont think that way of you all. You seemed young and naive and felt you had no alternative. Too bad you had to learn the hardway what abortion really is. IMO alot of women who get an abortion often feel backed into a corner, they either have family or the male partner pressuring or coercing them. They are threatened with loss of income and feel thats the only "choice' they have. Many are afraid. I think some women who do get an abortion could be called malicious killers, the ones who use it as a form of BC or do it for purely selfish reasons. But the term malicious killer cannot be applied to all.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think it can really be applied to anyone! There is no dislike of the baby, most women don't even think it is a baby...
But the fact is that it is a baby and it is wrong to kill them.

reply from: KaylieBee

Since when are prostitutes naive?

reply from: BossMomma

Most of them suffer low self esteem and feel that the best thing they can be is a piece of ass, why not make money from it. Prostitution is dangerous and often it's a desprate occupation.

reply from: carolemarie

In the begining Kaylie, they all are.

reply from: scopia1982

Most of them suffer low self esteem and feel that the best thing they can be is a piece of ass, why not make money from it. Prostitution is dangerous and often it's a desprate occupation.
Alot of pimps will get them hooked on drugs and then put them on the streets.

reply from: KaylieBee

Three years later is hardly the beginning.

reply from: KaylieBee

Most of them suffer low self esteem and feel that the best thing they can be is a piece of ass, why not make money from it. Prostitution is dangerous and often it's a desprate occupation.
Legalizing prostitution would get rid of most of the problems that surround it.

reply from: scopia1982

I have to disagree if law enforcment would crack down on their customers woud solve the problems. Prostituion is degradation and explotation of women

reply from: BossMomma

Most of them suffer low self esteem and feel that the best thing they can be is a piece of ass, why not make money from it. Prostitution is dangerous and often it's a desprate occupation.
Legalizing prostitution would get rid of most of the problems that surround it.
I believe Nevada has legalized it. Prostitutes there are given medical care, STD testing every six months and, freedom from abusive pimps.

reply from: KaylieBee

Nothing will get rid of prostitution, it's about the oldest trade in the world. Charging for sex is hardly exploitative, I don't see how screwing is degrading.

reply from: scopia1982

It is only legal in certain brothels in the state. I believe they have to get tested weekly or at the very least monthly. It is still degrading and should be illegal.

reply from: KaylieBee

Exactly, Australia too. It's really not going to go away, and protecting the girls under the law would keep them safe from many things.
Rape, for example. Many prostitutes are too afraid to report it because she might be thrown in jail as well, since their profession would be revealed to the courts.

reply from: KaylieBee

Sex is not degrading.

reply from: carolemarie

Instead of guerrilla pimps then they can have briefcase pimps. How wonderful!
Prostitution is degrading and the studies show that 95% percent were sexually abused as children...the average age for entering the life is about 16 and the average stay is 7 years.....

reply from: scopia1982

Nothing will get rid of prostitution, it's about the oldest trade in the world. Charging for sex is hardly exploitative, I don't see how screwing is degrading.
I didnt say it would go away, but for me sex is a spiritual and emotional act. Im no prude, but a woman who has sex for money obviously doesnt think highly of herself IMO. In America most prostitutes are lowly streetwalkers who give over half their earnings to a pimp and are lucky enough to make enough for their next fix. IF thats not exploitative I dont know what is. Sex itself is not a degrading thing it can be a wonderful thing. I did the casual sex thing in my day, something I would go back and change if I could. To have sex for money not only demeans the woman, it also demeans how wonderful sex can be.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I haven't been following your history; but weren't you a prostitute who had three of her children put to death? I can't think of things much worse. You are in denial. You were the worst of people. You ran a business and killed the little inconveniences, your own children. You were the worst of the worst. You need to admit how awful you were. The Apostle Paul, after having persecuted Christians by imprisoning them and assisting in their execution was so ashamed he said he wasn't worthy to be called an Apostle. You have to realize where you've been; a cold hearted murderer who violently ended the hopes and dreams of three little boys and girls.

reply from: scopia1982

Sex is not degrading.
I didnt say sex, I said protistution is degrading.

reply from: KaylieBee

Prostitution is the sale of sex. Therefore, prostitution is sex, and if sex is not degrading, why is prostitution?

reply from: BossMomma

Nothing will get rid of prostitution, it's about the oldest trade in the world. Charging for sex is hardly exploitative, I don't see how screwing is degrading.
I didnt say it would go away, but for me sex is a spiritual and emotional act. Im no prude, but a woman who has sex for money obviously doesnt think highly of herself IMO. In America most prostitutes are lowly streetwalkers who give over half their earnings to a pimp and are lucky enough to make enough for their next fix. IF thats not exploitative I dont know what is. Sex itself is not a degrading thing it can be a wonderful thing. I did the casual sex thing in my day, something I would go back and change if I could. To have sex for money not only demeans the woman, it also demeans how wonderful sex can be.
Why? Because she makes money for it?

reply from: scopia1982

I haven't been following your history; but weren't you a prostitute who had three of her children put to death? I can't think of things much worse. You are in denial. You were the worst of people. You ran a business and killed the little inconveniences, your own children. You were the worst of the worst. You need to admit how awful you were. The Apostle Paul, after having persecuted Christians by imprisoning them and assisting in their execution was so ashamed he said he wasn't worthy to be called an Apostle. You have to realize where you've been; a cold hearted murderer who violently ended the hopes and dreams of three little boys and girls.
You sound like the Apostle Paul when he was persecuting Christians. I dont know her history, but if shes sincerly repented for her sins, then the Lord has forgiven her sins. Why cant you? Your sinning by passing Judgment on her. Only God is judge.

reply from: carolemarie

Because you are not a person anymore. You are an object to be used. It makes you feel crappy.
It isn't Pretty Woman......

reply from: KaylieBee

Nothing will get rid of prostitution, it's about the oldest trade in the world. Charging for sex is hardly exploitative, I don't see how screwing is degrading.
I didnt say it would go away, but for me sex is a spiritual and emotional act. Im no prude, but a woman who has sex for money obviously doesnt think highly of herself IMO. In America most prostitutes are lowly streetwalkers who give over half their earnings to a pimp and are lucky enough to make enough for their next fix. IF thats not exploitative I dont know what is. Sex itself is not a degrading thing it can be a wonderful thing. I did the casual sex thing in my day, something I would go back and change if I could. To have sex for money not only demeans the woman, it also demeans how wonderful sex can be.
I'm sorry, but not everyone sees sex the way you do. Think of hooking up. People around me meet people on the weekends and ***** them, then never speak to them until the next weekend. And they're as happy as can be.
Their sex life does not effect you.
Should prostitution be legalized it would protect girls from all the negatives you are referring to.

reply from: scopia1982

Sex is the act of LOVE. THe joining of two people preferably in the confines of marriage. God intended it not only for procreation, but so a husband and wife could express their love to each other. Even if your not married you should love the person you have sex with. Casaul sex and prostitution make it sound like a meaning less act that has no emotional or spiritual aspect.

reply from: BossMomma

I wouldn't know, if you were a prostitute at one time I'm sorry for it. That fast money tempts a lot of people but the consequences are long lasting. I'm glad you got out of that life style.

reply from: scopia1982

I have "hooked up " as you call it and I didnt think anything of it at the time. BUt when I met my husband and actually did it because I loved him. It was the most enjoyable and satisfying experience I ever had. I can only speak from my own experience as can you. Im 25 so Im not some old prude. But for me going from hooking up to a meaningful relationship is like trading ground beef for a filet mignon.

reply from: KaylieBee

So? That's what it is to you. It can mean something totally different to someone else.

reply from: BossMomma

Sex is the act of LOVE. THe joining of two people preferably in the confines of marriage. God intended it not only for procreation, but so a husband and wife could express their love to each other. Even if your not married you should love the person you have sex with. Casaul sex and prostitution make it sound like a meaning less act that has no emotional or spiritual aspect.
Uhm, as a youngster I enjoyed the occasional one night stand and didn't share any love or spirituality with my partner, I shared an orgasm which was all that was intended.

reply from: scopia1982

Kay you dont sound very old. My point being is that sex should be an act of love not lust.

reply from: KaylieBee

I have "hooked up " as you call it and I didnt think anything of it at the time. BUt when I met my husband and actually did it because I loved him. It was the most enjoyable and satisfying experience I ever had. I can only speak from my own experience as can you. Im 25 so Im not some old prude. But for me going from hooking up to a meaningful relationship is like trading ground beef for a filet mignon.
For you, but for others it can be different. People have met their husbands and wives from casual encounters. Sex is amazing regardless. For all you know, if you had 'hooked up' with him initially it could have been the best lay of your life. People can be extremely romantically attracted to one another, and then find out they have no sexual chemistry, or vice versa.

reply from: scopia1982

Well good for you. Not everyone sees it that way. As long as it was done with both consenting, then thats your business. But protistution is a societal problem. The use of drugs, abuse and murder rates of women in that profession not to mention the STD rate makes it my and socities business.

reply from: carolemarie

Nobody dreams of growing up to be a whore and nobody hopes their daughter becomes one....

reply from: KaylieBee

My age is irrelevant. The point is, that's what it means to you. The only person whose sex life you control is your own.

reply from: KaylieBee

Nobody dreams of growing up to be a janitor, and nobody hopes their daughter becomes one...

reply from: scopia1982

My age is irrelevant. The point is, that's what it means to you. The only person whose sex life you control is your own.
I think a previous poster said you were 17 or 18. But that aside. Im not talking about other peoples sex lives. Im talking about prostituion. My tax dollars have to go to pay the police and coroners to get the murdered ones out of the alley, to pay for their upkeep in jail if they are convicted for a drug offense. Your entitled to your view on sex and so am I.

reply from: KaylieBee

What the hell? are they just useless meat to you or something?
MAYBE if prostitution was legalized the girls would be a hell of a lot safer from such dangers, and you wouldn't have to worry so much about the police having to drag away their corpses, which are really nothing to you anyway.
And again, prostitution is sex, you can't be a whore without sex, therefore, it is a part of your sex life.

reply from: scopia1982

What the hell? are they just useless meat to you or something?
No they are not useless meat, they are human beings who need love and compassion. I think we need to go after the customer base. that is where law enforcement is wrong, they should go after the johns not the women. We need to offer the women the resources to get them out of this lifestyle. But these women are often abused by pimps or murdered by johns. Often in the life so they can make money to support their drug habit. Its not about the sex its often about supporting a drug habit and these pimps see that and pray on them.

reply from: KaylieBee

Why are you ignoring the bottom line?
If it were legalized, the biggest of the problems you are listing would go away, just like with most drugs. Weed is effing harmless, everyone knows that, yet people have been jailed for having a fraction of a gram stuck to the bottom of their shoe.

reply from: carolemarie

Prostitution damaged women and destroys their lives. It never should be legal.

reply from: KaylieBee

The damage caused by it is because of factors which exist because it is illegal. Should it be made legal, those factors would be removed.

reply from: scopia1982

No it wouldnt. Abortion is legal, but that doesnt stop the coercion and explotation of women by outside forces to get her to have one.

reply from: KaylieBee

So you'd rather they be forced into illegal abortions, with doctors who don't give a damn about how he does it, since if she talks, she would be tossed in jail too? The ratio of forced women to those who choose to abort by their own free will is...oh hell, I can't even think of how to finish wording this sentence I'm so screwed up from my cold meds and insomnia. I'm going to bed.

reply from: carolemarie

Originally posted by: Godslaw2life
I am not hiding my past, it is what it is. But I am not who I was.
I run a ministry now to women who are still in the sex business and I treat them with LOVE and RESPECT, something you need to learn how to do.
I AWAIT YOUR APOLOGY

reply from: BossMomma

Don't hold your breath. That guy is an insufferable bigot and obvious misogynist.

reply from: yoda

No one should ever be forced to have an abortion, legal or otherwise.
Making abortion illegal, however, does not "force" anyone to do anything. It discourages abortions.

reply from: KaylieBee

She was talking about women who were forced into an abortion. It is logical to imagine that many of those women who are forced now while it is legal, would be forced regardless, should it become illegal, into extremely shady, botched abortions.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Porn is legal, yet it stil damages women and ruins their lives. Alcohol is legal, yet it damages many people and ruins many lives. The same goes for cigarettes. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it is incapable of ruining someone's life or damaging them.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Child trafficking is the sale of children. Therefor, child trafficking is children, and children are not degrading, so why is child trafficking?

reply from: KaylieBee

Lol different concept.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lol your same nonsensical logic.

reply from: BossMomma

Prostitution and child trafficking are equally destitute, degrading lifestyles and sometimes they are one and the same. Abuse, drug use, and often life long pain can stem from either one.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I said a woman hiring an abortionist is the same as someone hiring a hitman. Incredibly, you disagreed! You told me to grow up and love and respect the woman. Again, she has committed the most vile of acts, hiring someone to kill her child. You need to go to confession. There will be no apology for me refusing to accept your unrepentant attitude.
You call yourself a Christian, I must remind you that you are required to change and become a different person. You don't float off to heaven "just as you are".
You run a ministry for those "still in the sex industry". You must be mad! They need to be out of the sex industry. A club for practicing whores to hang around in? A thought you worked with people out of the business. How can they enter your doors if they are still doing "business". Jesus warned sternly, several times, "Go, and sin no more!" Are you an enabler of these lawless women?

reply from: BossMomma

I said a woman hiring an abortionist is the same as someone hiring a hitman. Incredibly, you disagreed! You told me to grow up and love and respect the woman. Again, she has committed the most vile of acts, hiring someone to kill her child. You need to go to confession. There will be no apology for me refusing to accept your unrepentant attitude.
You call yourself a Christian, I must remind you that you are required to change and become a different person. You don't float off to heaven "just as you are".
You run a ministry for those "still in the sex industry". You must be mad! They need to be out of the sex industry. A club for practicing whores to hang around in? A thought you worked with people out of the business. How can they enter your doors if they are still doing "business". Jesus warned sternly, several times, "Go, and sin no more!" Are you an enabler of these lawless women?
Judge not lest ye be judged for by those judgements shalt ye be judged and may he who is without sin cast the first stone. If your going to use the bible in this debate try to at least hold true to the teachings of your god.

reply from: yoda

"judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) He praised a man (Luke 7:43) who could "rightly judge" a matter of the heart. Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15â€'16).

reply from: scopia1982

I think she is trying to get them out of the sex business by offering them a safe haven.To give these ladies the resources to live a different kind of life. Jesus kept company with the lowest people of his day. You call these women "whores" which is a dehumanizing, demeaning term BTW. You condemn these women, but what about the men who patronize them?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I said a woman hiring an abortionist is the same as someone hiring a hitman. Incredibly, you disagreed! You told me to grow up and love and respect the woman. Again, she has committed the most vile of acts, hiring someone to kill her child. You need to go to confession. There will be no apology for me refusing to accept your unrepentant attitude.
You call yourself a Christian, I must remind you that you are required to change and become a different person. You don't float off to heaven "just as you are".
You run a ministry for those "still in the sex industry". You must be mad! They need to be out of the sex industry. A club for practicing whores to hang around in? A thought you worked with people out of the business. How can they enter your doors if they are still doing "business". Jesus warned sternly, several times, "Go, and sin no more!" Are you an enabler of these lawless women?
Like Yoda said; the Bible gives both sides of the argument. You see both sides of the coin. There are pros and cons to each argument. The Bible tries to give a balanced view on complex issues.
Jesus told a woman caught in adultery to "Go, and sin no more." John the Baptist said people shouldn't even bother coming to him to be baptized if their life was not already yielding fruits worthy of repentance. Baptism pictures making a commitment; burying the old man in the watery grave and coming out to a new life. If one is not committed to living differently, why undergo the ceremony saying you will live a new and different kind of life? Paul told the Corinthinians to kick a man out of the Church because he was having sexual relations with his father's wife. Paul told the Corinthinian Church to welcome him back after he quit the sexual immorality.
You need to tell the women to "Sin no more." They should not be welcomed into a Church or ministry unless they make a commitment to quit practicing sin and are not currently engaging in the sin. The Bible is clear, anyone who practices unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom.
The Kingdom, by the way, will be down here on the earth. We must deal with our problems here and now and become the people we need to be. The floating off to heaven and Jesus has done it all is escapism; and totally worthless may I add. God told Cain, you must master or rule over sin. To those who overcome and quit sinning, Jesus shall share his position of authority. It is written that God is doing a short work. Now is the time to quit sinning. Repentance is required for salvation.
We need to change. The "change we need" is not in an Obama or Mccain ad slogan. The change must be within us. We must literally becoime a new creation. Someone who thinks about things differently and acts differently.

reply from: scopia1982

So only "saints" are allowed in the church? I thought the church was for us sinners.
If anybody needs to be in church hearing the Gospel its these women. Being welcomed into a church and being installed in a ministry in position of leadership are 2 different things. Of course repentence is required for Salvation. But maybe these lowly sinners need to be in Church a few Sundays before they get the message. And you are sinning right now by being self-righteous. You sound like a Pharisee.

reply from: sweet

"judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) He praised a man (Luke 7:43) who could "rightly judge" a matter of the heart. Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15â€'16).Exactly.

reply from: sweet

I said a woman hiring an abortionist is the same as someone hiring a hitman. Incredibly, you disagreed! You told me to grow up and love and respect the woman. Again, she has committed the most vile of acts, hiring someone to kill her child. You need to go to confession. There will be no apology for me refusing to accept your unrepentant attitude.
You call yourself a Christian, I must remind you that you are required to change and become a different person. You don't float off to heaven "just as you are".
You run a ministry for those "still in the sex industry". You must be mad! They need to be out of the sex industry. A club for practicing whores to hang around in? A thought you worked with people out of the business. How can they enter your doors if they are still doing "business". Jesus warned sternly, several times, "Go, and sin no more!" Are you an enabler of these lawless women?
Like Yoda said; the Bible gives both sides of the argument. You see both sides of the coin. There are pros and cons to each argument. The Bible tries to give a balanced view on complex issues.
Jesus told a woman caught in adultery to "Go, and sin no more." John the Baptist said people shouldn't even bother coming to him to be baptized if their life was not already yielding fruits worthy of repentance. Baptism pictures making a commitment; burying the old man in the watery grave and coming out to a new life. If one is not committed to living differently, why undergo the ceremony saying you will live a new and different kind of life? Paul told the Corinthinians to kick a man out of the Church because he was having sexual relations with his father's wife. Paul told the Corinthinian Church to welcome him back after he quit the sexual immorality.
You need to tell the women to "Sin no more." They should not be welcomed into a Church or ministry unless they make a commitment to quit practicing sin and are not currently engaging in the sin. The Bible is clear, anyone who practices unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom.
The Kingdom, by the way, will be down here on the earth. We must deal with our problems here and now and become the people we need to be. The floating off to heaven and Jesus has done it all is escapism; and totally worthless may I add. God told Cain, you must master or rule over sin. To those who overcome and quit sinning, Jesus shall share his position of authority. It is written that God is doing a short work. Now is the time to quit sinning. Repentance is required for salvation.
We need to change. The "change we need" is not in an Obama or Mccain ad slogan. The change must be within us. We must literally becoime a new creation. Someone who thinks about things differently and acts differently.so so true. well said!

reply from: yoda

Killing a baby is killing a baby, and whether that endangers the life of the mother is a whole different question.
Anyone who forces a woman to have an abortion is a killer, and if the woman dies because of it they are a "double killer".
And NONE of that justifies the legal status of elective abortion.

reply from: BossMomma

"judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) He praised a man (Luke 7:43) who could "rightly judge" a matter of the heart. Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to "judge the smallest matters" (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, "He who is spiritual judges all things" for "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:15â€'16).
And so suddenly you are without sin, perfect, holier than thou? Are you "like christ" who pardoned the prostitute who was being dragged naked through the streets and being made ready to be stoned? It was my understanding that only "god" held say over who went to hell and that he or she who repents will be forgiven. Carol has repented and now speaks against abortion, but someone who has aborted understands the woman's mind set as no one else does. There is no mal-intent involved.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't really care what GL4U2L has to say. He is outragous and very full of condemation.
The truth is women who abort are not cold hearted killers. Most are simply scared and many believe that it isn't a baby yet. Others are under pressure. None of it is out of hate or malice. The Doctor is viewed as a health care provider and abortion is a medical procedure.
Does abortion kill a baby, yes. Are the women the same as someone who hired a hitman? No. It is different, but it still is wrong.
If you make it in your mind worse than it is, you are fighting the wrong battle.
This battle can only be won by LOVE.
I am prolife and I believe abortion is killing a baby. I don't think people seeking an abortion are thinking of it as GL4U2L.

reply from: nancyu

Carole, you are making generalizations. Some women are scared, uninformed, misguided; others are just coldhearted killers. They are fully informed, but they just don't care. Maybe they need LOVE too, but I think these women require a different kind of LOVE. (like maybe the kind that puts them behind bars for a while)

reply from: yoda

You got that out of those scripture quotes? Wild........

reply from: BossMomma

You got that out of those scripture quotes? Wild........
Yeah, I've read the bible cover to cover many times trying to find a similarity between what a christian should be and what they are in reality, thus far I've found few matches.

reply from: yoda

I think it's foolish to generalize like that. The surveys show what women give as their reasons for aborting, and in general they are not the reasons of a "hot blooded" killer.
In a way, I agree. I think that killing a baby is probably the worst kind of killing there is, because only an unborn or very young baby it truly innocent. And killing the truly innocent is as bad as you can get.
Does abortion kill a baby, yes.
This battle can only be won by LOVE..
Love doesn't win battles. Love keeps people out of battles. And love also causes people to risk their lives to protect the innocent.
Neville Chamberlin tried to show love to Hitler. Hitler laughed at him behind his back, and called the treaty he signed "just a piece of paper". There are some people who will always return hatred for the love you show them, and proaborts are almost always like that.
We need to show our love for the babies, not our love for the proaborts, in order to win this war. Showing love for the babies is what can convince the uncommitted that our cause is just. Showing love for the proaborts who love to kill the babies cast suspicion on our motivation, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".

reply from: BossMomma

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".
I never said you were a christian, I posted biblical quotes from the bible to another poster who was using the bible to condemn another poster who had repented her "sins". You were simply butting in.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".
I never said you were a christian, I posted biblical quotes from the bible to another poster who was using the bible to condemn another poster who had repented her "sins". You were simply butting in.
Repented? She says hiring someone to kill your child is not the same as hiring a mobster to kill someone you want to be rid of. I say, "what's the difference?" She says there is a difference. The women are just scared and not thinking about killing someone. They really aren't murderers she says. I disagree. They are murderers. I think we have to get over the mentality that we just spilled some milk. Someone has been murdered! Intentionally, deliberately killed! And it is very intentional, and very deliberate. She is overly sympathetic to the worst of actions. The prostitutes she "ministers" to don't even realize the size of their error. They are living a lifestyle that is fatal to themselves, their family and kids. We are required to become something else.
I took my numerous children to the parks yesterday and we enjoyed ice cream and other fried goodies. And what did the whore do? What did she do to build up and care for her family? Maybe kick a little dirt over the coffin of the child she killed?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, I do that a lot. And I will continue to do that.
Live with it, or put me on iggy...... your choice.

reply from: BossMomma

Yeah, I do that a lot. And I will continue to do that.
Live with it, or put me on iggy...... your choice.
It's tempting, your getting more assinine by the moment.

reply from: yoda

Knock yourself out. You are the most profane, most bitter, most angry person on the forum right now, and I won't miss your comments at all.

reply from: BossMomma

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".
I never said you were a christian, I posted biblical quotes from the bible to another poster who was using the bible to condemn another poster who had repented her "sins". You were simply butting in.
Repented? She says hiring someone to kill your child is not the same as hiring a mobster to kill someone you want to be rid of. I say, "what's the difference?" She says there is a difference. The women are just scared and not thinking about killing someone. They really aren't murderers she says. I disagree. They are murderers. I think we have to get over the mentality that we just spilled some milk. Someone has been murdered! Intentionally, deliberately killed! And it is very intentional, and very deliberate. She is overly sympathetic to the worst of actions. The prostitutes she "ministers" to don't even realize the size of their error. They are living a lifestyle that is fatal to themselves, their family and kids. We are required to become something else.
I took my numerous children to the parks yesterday and we enjoyed ice cream and other fried goodies. And what did the whore do? What did she do to build up and care for her family? Maybe kick a little dirt over the coffin of the child she killed?
I took my kids to McDonalds then to the park yesterday, what did you do? You called a decent woman a whore and kicked somemore dirt on your own god's face. Thou hypocrit, take the plank from thine own eye that ye may see clearly to remove the speck from thy brother's eye.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".
I never said you were a christian, I posted biblical quotes from the bible to another poster who was using the bible to condemn another poster who had repented her "sins". You were simply butting in.
Repented? She says hiring someone to kill your child is not the same as hiring a mobster to kill someone you want to be rid of. I say, "what's the difference?" She says there is a difference. The women are just scared and not thinking about killing someone. They really aren't murderers she says. I disagree. They are murderers. I think we have to get over the mentality that we just spilled some milk. Someone has been murdered! Intentionally, deliberately killed! And it is very intentional, and very deliberate. She is overly sympathetic to the worst of actions. The prostitutes she "ministers" to don't even realize the size of their error. They are living a lifestyle that is fatal to themselves, their family and kids. We are required to become something else.
I took my numerous children to the parks yesterday and we enjoyed ice cream and other fried goodies. And what did the whore do? What did she do to build up and care for her family? Maybe kick a little dirt over the coffin of the child she killed?
I took my kids to McDonalds then to the park yesterday, what did you do? You called a decent woman a whore and kicked somemore dirt on your own god's face. Thou hypocrit, take the plank from thine own eye that ye may see clearly to remove the speck from thy brother's eye.
I assume carolmarie is no longer a prostitute. The reference to whore was to those she ministers to. carolmarie testified that they were actively in the business of prostitution. I did not call carolmarie a name. A label is used when the label fits.

reply from: BossMomma

Ummm....... I'm not a Christian, and those quotes had nothing at all to do with someone thinking that they are "perfect".
I never said you were a christian, I posted biblical quotes from the bible to another poster who was using the bible to condemn another poster who had repented her "sins". You were simply butting in.
Repented? She says hiring someone to kill your child is not the same as hiring a mobster to kill someone you want to be rid of. I say, "what's the difference?" She says there is a difference. The women are just scared and not thinking about killing someone. They really aren't murderers she says. I disagree. They are murderers. I think we have to get over the mentality that we just spilled some milk. Someone has been murdered! Intentionally, deliberately killed! And it is very intentional, and very deliberate. She is overly sympathetic to the worst of actions. The prostitutes she "ministers" to don't even realize the size of their error. They are living a lifestyle that is fatal to themselves, their family and kids. We are required to become something else.
I took my numerous children to the parks yesterday and we enjoyed ice cream and other fried goodies. And what did the whore do? What did she do to build up and care for her family? Maybe kick a little dirt over the coffin of the child she killed?
I took my kids to McDonalds then to the park yesterday, what did you do? You called a decent woman a whore and kicked somemore dirt on your own god's face. Thou hypocrit, take the plank from thine own eye that ye may see clearly to remove the speck from thy brother's eye.
I assume carolmarie is no longer a prostitute. The reference to whore was to those she ministers to. carolmarie testified that they were actively in the business of prostitution. I did not call carolmarie a name. A label is used when the label fits.
Carol Marie in no way supports prostitution, nor is she any longer a prostitute if she ever was. She simply doesn't consider women who abort to be the malicious murderers that you in your ignorance portrays them to be. She is a pro-life supporter who repented of the abortions she had and you see fit to hold yourself over her as though you are somehow "holier than thou". You're lable does not fit.

reply from: BossMomma

Then take your own advise and quit arguing with me, you're not getting anywhere.

reply from: carolemarie

I find this crazy GL4U2L-
The women we are reaching out to are currently still in the business that is why it is called an outreach. We would love to help them out of the business...but it isn't a requirement to get us to help you. We love them unconditionally and let God change them, not club them over the head with a bunch of rules!
They already know that they can't keep them and they already think God hates them or they have crossed a line that He can't forgive....and we are there to show them that isn't true.
The girls we work with need love and someone to care about them.

reply from: sheri

I really think it is irresponcible to have a home birth. We have the gift of modern medicine and we should use it as best we can, a home birth can be very dangerous to both mother and child if something goes wrong.
I think it is important to take your medical needs to heart and not just blindly do what you are told, even by a doctor, but you can insist on having things as best you would want them in the safety of a hospital.
Also getting high off labor and delivery seems so wrong on so many different levels i cant even begin to count.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Some rules are good; like don't kill kids, or don't have sex with someone other than your spouse. God hates, yes, abhors people who break their contracts (such as marriage contracts or family contracts by killing family members or engaging in adultery).
The Bible said the law was made for the lawless. The laws were made for the lawless such as the women engaged in sexual immorality. But after getting "beat on the head by a bunch of rules", the women must move past that to actually becoming a changed person. For the person who becomes love, against his thoughts and deeds, the Bible says there is no law.
You say the women already know they can't "keep the law" of love. They have no faith. They are stuck in a rut. They believe they will always be as they are, greedy, selfish, lustful child killers? The Bible says those kind of people will not enter the Kingdom. They shall fall by unbelief and their continued sinful behavior. Their carcasses will not make it to the "promised land".
Is it not commanded, "Walk before me, and be perfect"? This is expected of everyone following in Jesus' footsteps, whomever follows the example of Jesus.

reply from: scopia1982

I am sorry you feel that way, because I cant think of how many hospital births go wrong with medical mistakes. Read the book Born in the USA by Marsden Wagner whos and MD .Pregnancy is a natural course of life , not a disease as the medical industrial complex makes it out to be. Women have been giving birth with the help of midwives since the dawn of time. Frankly I find some that some of the so called interventions used during labor make things worse and often lead to a CSection , which includes risk for postop infections and complications. That being said careful screening of a mom to be needs to be done to see if she is a candidate for home birth . If she suffers from high blood pressure, diabetes or heart trouble obviously she is not a good candidate for homebirth and any reputable midwife will refer to them to ob/gyn . But if a woman has no major health problems there is no reason why she cant and shouldnt be allowed to give birth in the comfort and privacy of her own home. One usually doesnt have the privacy or autonomy in a hospital setting. In the end the choice should be up to the woman.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Then why do thousands (if not millions) of women do it just fine? Our bodies are made to give birth.
Many women actually hate their hospital birth after experiencing a home birth.
Why? Why is it wrong to so completely love and enjoy bringing another human being into this world? I think it's one of the most ecstatic moments in life we can have! These women celebrate their power as females and the culmination of the sex act that began nine months ago. Birth is powerful and beautiful.
Now murdering someone and getting high off of it is wrong on so many different levels I can't even begin to count. High off of meeting your child for the first time? Joyous. High off ending life? Disturbing.
These women don't fear birth; they don't say "oh think of all that could go wrong I should be in a hospital!" And all of these women had access to emergency care should they have needed it. Most had a doula (birth assistant) who is trained in birth, and several of them had doctors visit them during the labor and delivery.

reply from: scopia1982

Liberal I like your approach on the issue of birth. I dont think its pain free for every woman, but they are more likely to be able to cope with it at home because they can relax. Where its hard to relax in a foreign enviorment. I wouldnt be a good candidate for homebirth because of the damage to my uterus. Never mind the fact that I have a very low tolerance to pain, so I would prefer a hospital birth. In this case its about choices. Are you familar with Ina May Gaskin. They actually named a maneuver after her in the medical community.

reply from: carolemarie

Lots of women do the home birth thing. I think that is fine, as long as you are able to call for help if you have a medical problem...
I know lots of women who have done the home birth thing and really liked it.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Thank you Scopia. I think being able to relax and open yourself to the experience is important, and being in a hospital doesn't help lol. Obviously not every woman can home birth, but I think it's a nice ideal that many women can aspire to. And just like not every woman should be encouraged to abort but encouraged to give birth, I think women need to be informed about this possibility of painless or home birth, and the wonder of birth, not the curse.

reply from: scopia1982

I think homebirth is safer now more than ever. We now know how to screen low risk form high risk women. I had a good hospital experince, except that all I could get to eat or drink was ice chips, I think that practice is so antiquated. It did nothing to replensh my strength. Thats one reason I want to be a midwife so that I can help women have the kind of birth they want.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's so silly; a woman can't go through 20 hours of giving birth on ice chips. I think most women have a natural desire not to eat as they approach closer to the real pushing anyway. We need to learn to trust our bodies again. Science is great, but if it has taught us anything, it is that we are well designed, whether by nature, God, or both!

reply from: sheri

Birthing a child is no small project, why would you not want all available medical help in the case of an emergency? Sure most births probably go along just fine, but what about that 1 in a 1000 chance that the baby needs care that only a doctor can give? I wont take chances like that with my kids.

reply from: Draiocht

Some women prefer home births so that they can feel more in control of the situation. These days hospital births are becoming more invasive and unnecessary procedures are forced on laboring women to bring in more bucks. C-sections are a favorite forced procedure that isn't needed as often as the doctors push for it. It costs the patient more because of the added recovery time, drugs and the fact that it's not minor surgery. If I were the sort to have children I'd probably prefer to call my own shots because the birthing process is traumatic and painful enough without people strapping you down like an animal. Having an on-call doc available would probably be a good idea but I can understand why a lot of women prefer the midwives instead. This is of course assuming that there aren't any complications or pre-existing risks.

reply from: scopia1982

I agree with you and I was only in labor for 7 hrs!!

reply from: KaylieBee

I can't imagine giving birth at home, away from medical help, unless I was married to a doctor or something. I wouldn't want to rick either of us just because I wanted to be free and ~natural~. Medical science exists to protect people.
Oh, btw, how much is it that you have to pay should you give birth in an American hospital?

reply from: scopia1982

Birthing is a huge task, but I think a woman should have a choice about how she births her child. I would go to a hospital myself if I can ever conceive, but most woman who labor at home have a midwife who works with a back up doctor who has admitting privalages to a hospital should something go wrong. But if we view birth as an illness and expect the worst, than chances are it will go wrong. Mind moves body. THere is usually always a back up plan for a transfer. A good midwife knows what to look for and if she thinks something is wrong she will transfer to the hospital and doctors.

reply from: KaylieBee

Interesting.
Could you compare the percentage of c-sections on American women, to say the percentage done on Canadian women, where health-care is far less expensive?

reply from: scopia1982

Interesting.
Could you compare the percentage of c-sections on American women, to say the percentage done on Canadian women, where health-care is far less expensive?
Im not sure about Canada but I believe in the US its 25% a very high rate. Holland is a good example of good midwifery care. Most babies are born at home or in hospitals attended by a midwife. This is paid for by their NHS.

reply from: KaylieBee

I'd probably end up getting a c-section, because I really don't want to have to push something that big out of my vag. I want it to stay the way it is.

reply from: Draiocht

I have no idea what it's like in Canada but I assume they have universal health care? I'm talking about American statistics. They don't push C-sections in Australia the way they do in the US, for example. The medical community has been overstepping itself for the past five years where women's reproductive care is concerned, especially in the maternity business. They're even trying to push folic acid on ALL females of reproductive age, regardless of whether they intend to (or can) bear children. It's getting absurd and it makes me glad I'm just visiting the US now rather than still living here.

reply from: scopia1982

Birthing Centers are a happy medium. Most are either connected to a hospital or very near one. I think the cost to birth in a US hospital is about 5000 and up.

reply from: scopia1982

You dont want a Cscetion unless you have to have one. The vagina stretches and then it bounces back. If your worried about being roomy, do Kegel excercises. I had an episotomy and the doc stitched it up tight. Hubby says he cant tell a difference.

reply from: KaylieBee

Yeah, we do. I was just wondering, since if the US was really pushing c-sections on women to get more money, one would assume that a country like Canada would have a lower percentage of women getting c-sections.
What does Folic Acid do?

reply from: KaylieBee

But I'm sure I'd prefer it. (but then I'm also sure I've prefer perfect little fraternal twins, a girl and a boy. Could twins necessitate it?)
I've been doing those since before I even had sex, I want it as tight as possible no damn matter what.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Birth does not permanently stretch the vagina, that's just a myth.

reply from: scopia1982

Yeah, we do. I was just wondering, since if the US was really pushing c-sections on women to get more money, one would assume that a country like Canada would have a lower percentage of women getting c-sections.
What does Folic Acid do?
For the doctors here its mostly to keep their malpractice insuraunce premiums down.

reply from: KaylieBee

I know that, but it's never going to be as nice again. Do you really think the vagoo of a 17 year old is the same as that of a mother of three?

reply from: scopia1982

But I'm sure I'd prefer it. (but then I'm also sure I've prefer perfect little fraternal twins, a girl and a boy. Could twins necessitate it?)
I've been doing those since before I even had sex, I want it as tight as possible no damn matter what.
Ask women who have had csections they can tell you how it is. Twins doesnt mean that you will have a csection. My grandmother birthed twins vaginally just fine.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Medical science slaughters babies. No, not everything natural is good, like snake bites. But to completely toss the idea out the window as careless and risky is just stupid.

reply from: KaylieBee

So it doesn't really do anything?

reply from: KaylieBee

I'm sorry, but if I was giving birth I would want to be in the safest enviroment possible, surrounded by trained professionals, where I could get help within a minute of so, not the time it takes to get from my home to the hospital.

reply from: scopia1982

I know that, but it's never going to be as nice again. Do you really think the vagoo of a 17 year old is the same as that of a mother of three?
Probably not, but even if you dont have kids doesnt mean it will stay like that of a 17 yr old. Having sex can make it stretch some, just do the Kegels and you will be fine.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's a rather liberal post from someone who has "Birth is a violent experience" in their signature.

reply from: scopia1982

"That's a rather liberal post from someone who has "Birth is a violent experience" in their signature"
Birth is natural not violent. Messy yes, but natural.

reply from: Draiocht

It is a violent and traumatic experience for most women. That doesn't mean women who CHOOSE to endure it shouldn't have the right to do so in the most comfortable environment possible.

reply from: KaylieBee

I don't know, I just really don't like the idea of pushing it out that way.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm sorry, but if I was giving birth I would want to be in the safest enviroment possible, surrounded by trained professionals, where I could get help within a minute of so, not the time it takes to get from my home to the hospital.
You're much more likely to catch a deadly disease in a hospital than at home. Home births are safe. Did you know that it's actually safer to deliver a breech baby in the standing position than lying down on a bed? Laying on your back increases the back pain. Being able to move freely in a darkened, relaxing room without people yelling at you to "PUSH!" means your body is more relaxed. As many of us know, tensing up makes pain 10x worse. You can pee when YOU want to, you don't have people staring up your vagina ever ten minutes, you don't have wires and IV's sticking out of you... I just can't imagine how a hospital birth could be calm or relaxed or safe feeing.

reply from: KaylieBee

Nature(and therefore many natural things) is incredibly violent!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't know, I just really don't like the idea of pushing it out that way.
But it's the right way O.o

reply from: KaylieBee

I know that the vagina is angled. I doubt the hospital could really force me to be in that position if i didn't want to, if I decided to give birth that way.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Nature(and therefore many natural things) is incredibly violent!
Not all of nature is violent.

reply from: KaylieBee

Because it's natural? So is nudity, but you wouldn't walk barefoot and naked through the woods, would you? Or anywhere public?
I just really, really dislike the thought of pushing something out of me.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I know that the vagina is angled. I doubt the hospital could really force me to be in that position if i didn't want to, if I decided to give birth that way.
Actually if you were breech they'd probably freak out and wheel you off to cesarian without even letting you try.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Because it's natural? So is nudity, but you wouldn't walk barefoot and naked through the woods, would you? Or anywhere public?
I just really, really dislike the thought of pushing something out of me.
No, it's literally the way our bodies are designed. We're supposed to give birth through the vagina, not our stomachs. If we were, our vaginas would be on our stomachs.

reply from: scopia1982

I don't know, I just really don't like the idea of pushing it out that way.
Neither did I at your age. I was born via csection and I ask my mom about hers and she told me you are in alot more pain afterward than if you had a vag birth. There is risk of stitches ripping, post op infection and have to be careful about bending and lifting. Its major abdominal surgery it takes about a month or more to heal where is my episotomy healed within a couple of weeks, sure it stung to go pee the 1st few days, but after a week I was almost back to my normal self.

reply from: KaylieBee

I'd be having it cut out in the first place, probably.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You must dislike pooping...

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'd be having it cut out in the first place, probably.
Vagina birth is better for the baby.

reply from: Draiocht

Traumatic, yes. Even wanted pregnancies cause physical trauma at the end, which is a medical fact. If there weren't trauma there would be no need for recovery time, there would be no blood and women wouldn't suffer postpartum depression. Such occurrences are caused by trauma, just like any wound or highly painful experience can cause physical/emotional/mental trauma to the one experiencing it.
The fact that it's natural to give birth doesn't make it any easier on a woman's body or any less painful or traumatic. It's natural to get kidney stones too but I'll bet nobody tries to downplay the pain people feel when they push those out.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Sometimes it's quite pleasant actually, yes. It's a relief to get it out, somewhat of a relaxing feeling.

reply from: scopia1982

Do you like it? O.o
To me its just a natural function. Like vaginal birth. the natural order of things

reply from: Draiocht

For the average woman, it's not "pleasant" and it is in fact excruciating...especially if their privates end up sliced open or torn. With that in mind, I think that women deserve to give birth on THEIR terms unless complications leave them no other option. Whether this means in a hospital or at home, they are the ones laboring and the more stress they endure, the worse of they and the offspring they're trying to bring into the world will be.

reply from: KaylieBee

Like those times when someone just won't get the hell out of the bathroom, and you feel like you're gonna die?

reply from: scopia1982

Like those times when someone just won't get the hell out of the bathroom, and you feel like you're gonna die?
THats how it felt for me when my son was born. LOL I was relived when he came out. But the moments before and after his birth I cant really remember, I think thats the bodies way of coping for some of us women. Some women will honestly tell you they dont remember much about the actual pushing it out part.

reply from: KaylieBee

My mum was at it three days with me. That could be part of the reason I just want to cut it out.

reply from: ProInformed

Oh please... as if we've never heard choicist fanatics pointing to such cases as a supposed justification of how it would have been better if the baby had been aborted, exploiting such stories in order to defend legalized abortion. Either you haven't been debating abortion for very long or you're being dishonest. EVERY time one of these stories makes the news chanting choicists jump on it and claim it is connected to the abortion debate. But hey, maybe you weren't aware of that yet because you aren't very well-informed?

reply from: scopia1982

My mum was at it three days with me. That could be part of the reason I just want to cut it out.
KB your young as you get older you will acquire more wisdom and might change your mind. Wisdom can only be acquired with age and experience.

reply from: KaylieBee

You're. Pet peeve. Homophones.
The thing is, it goes the other way. I might not change, and have my future babies by c-section. I know I would prefer it.
But I also might happily chose not to have any children at all.

reply from: scopia1982

You're. Pet peeve. Homophones.
The thing is, it goes the other way. I might not change, and have my future babies by c-section. I know I would prefer it.
But I also might happily chose not to have any children at all.
You might choose not to have children. Some people say they dont want children and 10 yrs later change their mind. You may change and then you just may. All I can suggest is that you do some thorough research , weigh the pro/cons and make an informed choice.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You're. Pet peeve. Homophones.
But I also might happily chose not to have any children at all.
Actually YOU ARE (you're) wrong. You're means "you are". Her sentence did not read as "and might change you are mind." YOUR is indeed the correct word. "Your" means you possess something, and she certainly possesses her mind and her opinion. Your mind. Your lack of grammar.
Pet peeve. People who correct grammar who can't even get it right themselves. I don't bother correcting people's spelling/grammar unless it's the same mistake several times, like the case of "fill" vs "feel" earlier this week. I mean, that's not even a similar word! At least your and you're is a common mistake. I don't bother with too or to either, since most people don't get it. Or affect and effect. There's a lot of stuff I don't grammar nazi over.
Hell, it's and its. No one can get that right. It's means "it is". Its is the possessive term, for when "it" owns something. Like, "Its wings opened". As opposed to "It's a huge dragon!"

reply from: KaylieBee

The first your, LCR, not that second. As in, 'You ARE young'.

reply from: scopia1982

I will try and be most careful with my spelling and grammar. Sometimes it is difficult to type perfectly when one has a child running around. I often have to get up and tend to other matters when posting

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I have no idea how I missed that one. Still, despite that, I think I raise a valid point. Nitpicking people's grammar is actually really, really irritating for the victim, and as you can see it can even annoy other people too. I know it's really annoying to see the typos but I just try to contain myself.

reply from: carolemarie

Glad to hear it, God forbide we have to worry about the grammar police!

reply from: BossMomma

C-Sections are actually a little harder to recover from and have more possible complications than vaginal birth.

reply from: ProInformed

C-Sections are actually a little harder to recover from and have more possible complications than vaginal birth.
Yes, C-sections are not exactly easy to recover from. That is why they keep mothers who've had C-sections in the hospital 3 times longer than they keep mothers who deliver naturally. I've had 3 C-sections and I would certainly not recommend one unless it is truly medically necessary. Also, even though I am very physically fit it took a looong time to recover from the C-sections. The incision was still very painful several months after my 3rd C-section and even now, 17 years later, the incision area becomes painful if I do crunches (sit-ups).
Having a C-section when it's not needed for an emergency delivery needlessly increases the risks for both mother and baby. Unfortunately since 'abortion rights' are considered way more important than the rights and lives of either the mother or baby, and abortionists prefer pregnant women to be uninformed, very few women are encouraged to pro-actively educate themselves about pregnancy options. I got information from the C-section Prevention Movement and the International Chilbirth Education Association when I took a specialized VBAC prenatal course. I also went to a birthing center operated by nurse midwives (with hospital and doctor back-up) for my prenatal care. They had a VERY pro-woman policy which not only allowed, but encouraged patients to make WELL-INFORMED decisions during pregnancy. I was amazed at how much info was presented about the pros and cons of the various pregnancy procedures, prenatal tests, delivery options, etc., and how comparitively little my female friends and relatives had been told by their doctors.
Also, there are too many people who are purposely trying to scare and shame women into believing that the natural, amazing, female ability to have babies is something disgusting, unnatural, dangerous, or malignant. Their agenda is to convince women that these natural, normal, female abilities are to be treated as if they are a diseased condition. The pharmaceutical industry and the abortion industry profit from convincing women that female fertility is something unhealthy, so they can sell the drugs, devices, and surgeries 'needed' to 'control' it.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

#1 - Women in labor are given ice chips BECAUSE, if a C-section becomes necessary to save the life of the mother or the fetus, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT that the woman not have any food or liquids in her stomach - that is why anyone having any kind of surgery involving anesthesia is NOT allowed to eat or drink (any more than a swallow of water for required medications) for 12 hours or so before the procedure. If you didn't know why you were given only ice chips, you could have asked and been an INFORMED patient.
#2 - No doctor in his/her right mind is going to do a C-section so that your pretty little puss doesn't "stretch" - they are major surgery, have a mortality rate of about 1 in 2,500 procedures, require way more time for recuperation and should ONLY be done to save lives, not for your desires.
#3 - Home births, under the supervision of a licensed midwife with a backup hospital, are very safe. Where I live, MANY women have their babies at home, and also in birthing centers and clinics.
#4 - Folic acid is very important for pregnancy. If you are trying to get pregnant, you should begin taking it immediately.
Women, get informed! If you are planning to have a child, it would behoove you to read up on pregnancy, childbirth and parenting. Ignorance in these days of instant internet information is nearly unforgivable.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Women should not go into labor preparing for a c-section. That's planning for failure. I think it's very unhealthy for a woman in labor to be denied sustinance for 12 hours!! I get hungry after three; I can only imagine how tired I'd get if I were in labor!
If c-sections are so dangerous then why do I see them encouraged so often?
Why though?
Indeed.

reply from: scopia1982

Originally posted by: RiverMoonLady
#1 - Women in labor are given ice chips BECAUSE, if a C-section becomes necessary to save the life of the mother or the fetus, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT that the woman not have any food or liquids in her stomach - that is why anyone having any kind of surgery involving anesthesia is NOT allowed to eat or drink (any more than a swallow of water for required medications) for 12 hours or so before the procedure. If you didn't know why you were given only ice chips, you could have asked and been an INFORMED patient.
#2 - No doctor in his/her right mind is going to do a C-section so that your pretty little puss doesn't "stretch" - they are major surgery, have a mortality rate of about 1 in 2,500 procedures, require way more time for recuperation and should ONLY be done to save lives, not for your desires.
/q]
RML if women were not denied nourishment during labor, maybe they would not tire out "fail to progress" and end up needing a Csection. Childbirth is a part of nature, granted there are some women with medical conditions that may need them, but not for your average laboring woman. These interventions often end up resulting in Csections instead of avoiding them. I am not talking about full course meanl. I think popscicles, jello, tea and broth would be more along the line of a liquid diet, but certainly more replenshing of strength than those stupid ice chips, Toward the end of my labor I was so tired and starved, that when my husband offered me ice chips, I took the cup and poured it all over him. I still to this day cannot eat ice. I agree with you about the Csection part. They are too risky to be done to preserve the honeymoon vagina.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Here is a newborn child thrown in a trash bin who was not so fortunate; she's dead. The boy got out of the trash alive, but a choicer killed a little girl good and dead; she became the trash. Filthy choicers.
Buffalo Woman Charged With Murder of Newborn Daughter Found in Shoebox
Tuesday, September 23, 2008
E-Mail Print Share:
BUFFALO - A 19-year-old woman has been charged with second-degree murder in the death of her newborn daughter whose body was found in a garbage bin in Buffalo.
Police say 19-year-old Alicia Zebrun of Lackawanna was apprehended by Buffalo detectives Monday night and taken to Erie County Medical Center for evaluation.
She was scheduled to be arraigned Tuesday morning in Buffalo City Court. It was not immediately known if she had an attorney.
Authorities say Zebrun put the infant in a shoebox and then placed the box in a garbage container behind the Botanical Gardens in South Buffalo. The baby's body was discovered Friday afternoon by a person looking for returnable cans

reply from: ProInformed

Most of the so-called 'pro-choicers' I've talked to don't even pretend to care when women are pressured or forced to abort. That reveals that they are really pro-abortion, not 'pro-choice'. MANY, many women have revealed that they were pressured or even forced to abort but in general 'pro-choicers' don't care.
Their favorite responses are:
pretend the woman is lying, that it just never happens
pretend that it is extremely rare and that surely most clinics would not agree to do a coerced abortion
try to shut the woman up by making fun of her or harrassing her
But in spite off all the pretense otherwise, this really does happen, and happens so often, that the abortion industry is (FINALLY) being forced to address it.
(I guess some of the less informed pro-abort sheeple are still ignorant about it though.)
There was one case when the abortion clinic staff even called 911 but that was only because the pro-abort who was forcing the mother to 'choose' abortion had brought the gun to the clinic, thereby causing the abortion industry employees to worry about THEIR lives.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa032706c.htm

reply from: ProInformed

The pro-aborts pretend that these tragedies happen because women supposedly don't realize that birth control and abortion are available. Pro-aborts exploit such stories as excuses for more tax dollars going to fund sex-ed and abortions... Yet when women are lied to at abortion clinics and assured that abortion is 'safe', and then suffer complications they were not told about, the same pro-aborts blame the women for trusting the the choicers chanting about how abortion is supposedly 'safe', and make fun of the women for not doing their own research to learn about the possible risks before they are 'counseled' at the clinic. AND you don't hear pro-aborts asking for more money to fund educational programs to help warn women about the risks of abortion.
The truth is those who dump these precious babies in the trash are pro-aborts. They are just DIYers and THAT is what bothers the abortion industry - that they didn't make a profit from the killing. The attitude that innocent human babies are disposable is THE attitude that the abortion industry has promoted. It shouldn't shock anyone that sometimes those who've adopted that attitude only bought the attitude the abortion industry is selling without also buying the product (abortions).
The truth is that pro-aborts like Obama have no problem with these babies being killed, inside or outside their mother's body.

reply from: scopia1982

I think every "prochoice" person should read the book Silent Grief by Teresa Burke. Not only are they deceived about what goes on in abortion clinics they are deceived about the emotional trauma that goes along with abortion.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The pro-aborts pretend that these tragedies happen because women supposedly don't realize that birth control and abortion are available. Pro-aborts exploit such stories as excuses for more tax dollars going to fund sex-ed and abortions... Yet when women are lied to at abortion clinics and assured that abortion is 'safe', and then suffer complications they were not told about, the same pro-aborts blame the women for trusting the the choicers chanting about how abortion is supposedly 'safe', and make fun of the women for not doing their own research to learn about the possible risks before they are 'counseled' at the clinic. AND you don't hear pro-aborts asking for more money to fund educational programs to help warn women about the risks of abortion.
The truth is those who dump these precious babies in the trash are pro-aborts. They are just DIYers and THAT is what bothers the abortion industry - that they didn't make a profit from the killing. The attitude that innocent human babies are disposable is THE attitude that the abortion industry has promoted. It shouldn't shock anyone that sometimes those who've adopted that attitude only bought the attitude the abortion industry is selling without also buying the product (abortions).
The truth is that pro-aborts like Obama have no problem with these babies being killed, inside or outside their mother's body.
Actually I think every dollar spent on abortion aid for women who can't pay should be turned into sex ed and free birth control money. I firmly believe that proper birth control can prevent many abortions.

reply from: scopia1982

The pro-aborts pretend that these tragedies happen because women supposedly don't realize that birth control and abortion are available. Pro-aborts exploit such stories as excuses for more tax dollars going to fund sex-ed and abortions... Yet when women are lied to at abortion clinics and assured that abortion is 'safe', and then suffer complications they were not told about, the same pro-aborts blame the women for trusting the the choicers chanting about how abortion is supposedly 'safe', and make fun of the women for not doing their own research to learn about the possible risks before they are 'counseled' at the clinic. AND you don't hear pro-aborts asking for more money to fund educational programs to help warn women about the risks of abortion.
The truth is those who dump these precious babies in the trash are pro-aborts. They are just DIYers and THAT is what bothers the abortion industry - that they didn't make a profit from the killing. The attitude that innocent human babies are disposable is THE attitude that the abortion industry has promoted. It shouldn't shock anyone that sometimes those who've adopted that attitude only bought the attitude the abortion industry is selling without also buying the product (abortions).
The truth is that pro-aborts like Obama have no problem with these babies being killed, inside or outside their mother's body.
Actually I think every dollar spent on abortion aid for women who can't pay should be turned into sex ed and free birth control money. I firmly believe that proper birth control can prevent many abortions.
Agreed, I think Condoms should do the trick. And we need to teach girls to be assertive in making sure he puts one on.

reply from: KaylieBee

Oh, but didn't you know? If you didn't tell kids about birth control, they would NEVER even consider having sex! Besides, they don't even work, anyway. [/sarcasm]

reply from: carolemarie

I think both sides should read it. The one thing missing is compassion and kindness on both sides.

reply from: BossMomma

The pro-aborts pretend that these tragedies happen because women supposedly don't realize that birth control and abortion are available. Pro-aborts exploit such stories as excuses for more tax dollars going to fund sex-ed and abortions... Yet when women are lied to at abortion clinics and assured that abortion is 'safe', and then suffer complications they were not told about, the same pro-aborts blame the women for trusting the the choicers chanting about how abortion is supposedly 'safe', and make fun of the women for not doing their own research to learn about the possible risks before they are 'counseled' at the clinic. AND you don't hear pro-aborts asking for more money to fund educational programs to help warn women about the risks of abortion.
The truth is those who dump these precious babies in the trash are pro-aborts. They are just DIYers and THAT is what bothers the abortion industry - that they didn't make a profit from the killing. The attitude that innocent human babies are disposable is THE attitude that the abortion industry has promoted. It shouldn't shock anyone that sometimes those who've adopted that attitude only bought the attitude the abortion industry is selling without also buying the product (abortions).
The truth is that pro-aborts like Obama have no problem with these babies being killed, inside or outside their mother's body.
Actually I think every dollar spent on abortion aid for women who can't pay should be turned into sex ed and free birth control money. I firmly believe that proper birth control can prevent many abortions.
Agreed, I think Condoms should do the trick. And we need to teach girls to be assertive in making sure he puts one on.
Condoms alone fail, they failed with me twice. They slip off, break or, if he does not stop and remove the condom after ejaculation they can leak.

reply from: scopia1982

Oh, but didn't you know? If you didn't tell kids about birth control, they would NEVER even consider having sex! Besides, they don't even work, anyway. [/sarcasm]
My solution to "safer sex" for teens is condoms, they prevent pregnancy and STDS. Both are problems that need to be dealt with

reply from: ProInformed

Condoms have a very high failure rate.
Plus when you factor in that you can only get pregnant part of the month, the 'success' rate of condoms is really even lower than the statistics.
Using a condom on a day when you aren't going to get pregnant anyway isn't really a condom 'success', and if you rely on a condom on the days you can get pregnant, you most likely will get pregnant in spite of the condom. If you compare the percentage of fertile days in a month to the failure rate of condoms, it reveals that condoms don't actually prevent many pregnancies. They mostly 'prevent' pregnancy only on unfertile days...
Also, when asked, sex-educators admitted that they would not risk THEIR lives by relying on a condom to protect THEMSELVES from being infected with hiv.
Assuring children that a condom can keep them 'safe' is shameful.
It took a long time for the pro-condom crowd to start admitting that a condom can only make sex somewhat 'safER' instead of 'safe' as they were claiming.
Assuring teens thay can have sex 'safely' if they use a condom probably results in a lot of pregnancies and STD infections among teens that would have abstained from having sex if they were told the truth. Yes there are those who will risk their lives for lust anyway, but that's not a good enough excuse to falsely assure ALL teens that condoms can magically render sex 'safe'. ALL teens are put at risk just because SOME teens, the ones who don't care about their safety anyway, might be a teensy bit 'safer' if condom use is pushed? For those with a genuine concern for the safety of teens that makes no sense at all. It reminds me of how some smokers think they are 'safe' because they smoke filtered cigarettes.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No condoms do not have a high failure rate - when used correctly they are as effective as hormonal birth control. Saying condoms are ineffective is like saying all hamburger will give you salmonella. If you cook it incorrectly yeah, of course you're gonna get sick. Proper procedure is important in all parts of life.
I don't want teens having sex at all. I depended on just a condom for safety and WOW I didn't get pregnant imagine that? Never had one break either, not in the four years I've used them. I did get on birth control as back up, but that was after several months of condom-only sex.
Assuring children condoms keep them safe makes you a pedophile

reply from: BossMomma

No, having sex with children makes you a pedophile.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That would be the implication of what you're about to commit, since if you are telling a child a condom will make them safe, you're most likely about to penetrate them.

reply from: BossMomma

So sex ed. teachers in schools are pedophiles? I was taught in school that condoms were 99.9% effective in preventing pregnancy and STD's and were ultimately there to make sex safer. Or does a 15 year old not qualify as a child to you?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't think sex ed teachers should be teaching ten, eleven or twelve year old (or younger) children how to use condoms. SEX education is not CONTRACEPTIVE education.
Young children should be taught how their body will go through puberty and that sex makes babies. That's what I was taught. I had absolutely no desire to have sex because I didn't want a baby at the time.
After they hit puberty (early teens, menses, whatever) they should learn that sex can be for more than just making babies. They can be taught about birth control etc. They may know more before then, but there are not a lot of 12 year old children having sex. If a child asks before the material is taught, of course they should be told the truth.
If kids are first taught that "sex makes babies" then why would they be having sex when they hit puberty? They will remember that most importantly, sex can make a baby, and so they shouldn't just frivolously be doing it. I thought everyone who was having sex in highschool was incredibly stupid and out of their minds.
Parents will supplement any/all of this material in their own way.
A fifteen year old is not a "child" they are a teenager. They are not an adult, they are an adolescent. They still shouldn't be having sex. They are not physically, mentally or emotionally ready.

reply from: ProInformed

http://www.holylamb.com/default2.htm
"An August 2, 1981 story in the Philadelphia Inquirer said that in July of 1979, Dr. Boyd Cooper performed an abortion at 23 weeks at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. The 1 lb 2 oz infant boy gasped and tried to breathe. No efforts were made to revive the infant due to the parents' wishes and the infant's size. The baby was placed in a utility room used as an infant morgue. Cooper instructed nurse, "Leave the baby there -- it will die." The nurse testified that the baby was still gasping in the closet when she returned to work 12 hours later. Cooper then finally agreed to allow the baby to be transferred to intensive care, where he died 4 days later. Despite having left the child gasping, cold and alone, in a morgue for over twelve hours, the baby's death was ruled accidental."


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