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If choice

by: JasonFontaine

If choice were not ever taken away....then what?
We all make choices. These choices have consequences. If I touch a candle - I will burn. I have every right to touch the fire. Nobody will stop me. Should they. No. But, if I follow through with this choice - I SUFFER...
Kind of ironic.
We move the choice so no "consequences" are ever felt. No babies blanket. No Barney. No Blues Clues. No dirty diapers. No laughing and worrying about what tomorrow will bring.
You know - the only way we improve ourselves as a species is to learn from our mistakes and pass along the good to future generations.
We kill ours. As a matter of convenience. No consequence. No more heart beat.
Choice is never taken away. Consequences are....
Debate. Argue. It's how I will always view it - I've yet to see any argument to persuade me otherwise....

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You make a point: We have the right to make our own choices, and then we must face the consequence. So by your theorizing, women should have the choice to abort. Then what, though?
Many things are illegal. We can still choose to do these things; outlawing them doesn't remove this choice. But it does impose strict punishments. What must be determined is WHAT the repricussion should be for obtaining an illegal abortion.

reply from: JasonFontaine

No. I'm sorry. Choice comes before conception. Conception should be "legalized" as the moment life begins.
You make a choice to have sex. When you choose to abort - you choose murder.
The consequence of having an abortion is being labeled a murderer.
The consequence of not having sex is not having an abortion.
We have choice in the wrong context. The woman has a right to make her choice now AFTER conception.
If we moved it BEFORE - we're not taking her choice away - just denying murder....

reply from: lukesmom

Agreed. Killing another is not a choice. It is murder.

reply from: Jameberlin

I don't see it as quite so black and white... A person who makes the choice to murder another is still making a choice... Some women don't choose to have sex, some don't choose to become pregnant from the sex they didn't choose.
There are a lot of different circumstances that might push one to have an abortion... i don't think the majority of those women see it as i either choose to murder or i don't.
I wonder about those women who are threatened with death if they choose not to have an abortion.. Isn't that like, psycholigical warfare? It's like the Vietnamese strapping bombs to little children to kill the Americans... I wonder if the "it's me or them" mentality is justified in that situation...
I'm just wondering though...

reply from: lukesmom

Not many things are "black and white" but the fact that abortion kills another is. You would be suprised, in the poor prenatal diagnosis world that is, how many moms who terminate say they "had no choice". In actuality, they did but they didn't like the other choice. Of course some women don't choose to have sex ie: rape but 99% of them do have a choice. The unborn child NEVER has a choice.
No, they let fear of the unknown, fear of the known, selfishness, or ambition and in more and more cases, ignorance of the facts, lead them to killing their own child.
Interesting thought but the arguement could also be made that protecting your child in those kinda situations is also enpowering. Actually, in that situation none of us really knows what we will do unless actually faced with this. I would like to hope I would continue to be the renegade I usually am and stand up to whatever or who ever is threatening me but who actually knows?

reply from: kayluvzchoice

What do you mean you suffer when you touch fire? It feels so nice.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Life does not begin at fertilization or implantation. Life began billions of years ago. A new human being becomes whole at fertilization. Now, this does not make the moment of conception any less important. I am just completely firm about the life issue.
Anyway, you DO want to take away choice. You want to take away choice after "conception", whenever you believe that is. Please, use fertilization or implantation.
I think the unborn really becomes important at implantation. Most babies die before they ever implant, so I cannot fairly place any value on a fertilized but unimplanted zygote. And to be honest, until the woman gets through the first trimester, the chances of miscarriage are also still very high - which is part of the reason why I'm still hesitantly OK with early-term abortions.
Please do not call it something it is not. You DO choose death.
The only choice the woman and the man make is to have sex. They do not have a choice to ovulate or to have the egg be fertilized; that is not their choice and happens against their will. When accidental pregnancy happens, it really is just an accident. However, it is a LIFE and that cannot be lightly tossed aside.
Uh, only by crazy pro-lifers. I do not call the majority of women who abort a murderer. They are not murderers in my eyes.
Yeah, and also... not getting to have sex!!! There is NOTHING WRONG WITH SEX. However, care must be taken and IF a woman becomes pregnant, she needs to deal with that in a mature and responsible way. Most of the time I believe that answer is birth.
What do you mean, the wrong context? Choice is choice. There is no context. So again, you want the woman to NOT have a choice after "conception". You are contradicting your topic title in which you implied there was always CHOICE.
I don't consider early abortion to be murder so I just have to disagree with you completely. You can't "move" a choice; choice is choice and it is always there, forever. Even if you make abortion illegal, the woman still has the CHOICE to abort and many will. It's just that SOMEONE will have to punish them for making the "wrong" choice.
You cannot remove her choice. You CAN call her choice BAD and lobby for punishment should she make that choice. That is what you should be doing if you feel abortion is murder.

reply from: Jameberlin

The general consensus is that, when people say "life" they mean the individual life of the human being in question. Your life did NOT exist before you were conceived, even though life, and the lives of others existed before you.
Conception IS the point of fertilization, it's not some made up time that people can adjust to fit their needs, conception and fertilization are synonymous.
Actually, it's unlikely any person will miscarry after she knows she's pregnant (the rate is only 12- 15% for 4-6 wks). Some studies indicate the rate of miscarriage past the first doctors visit (6-11 wks, without miscarriage symptoms) is less than 2%. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/571467
Putting a value on early pregnancy based on the rate of natural miscarriage is like saying... "some kids get cancer and die naturally... so i don't think killing a four year old is too big a deal."
Some children die naturally, this does not mean we place less value on another child's life. Yes, some humans die before implantation, but this does not mean another who successfully implants can be ethically killed.
:/

reply from: Cecilia

You are removing a choice. You just don't like it, so you deny that it is a choice to be made. It's factual and logical.

reply from: Hosea

There are a lot of different circumstances that might push one to have an abortion... i don't think the majority of those women see it as i either choose to murder or i don't.
I wonder about those women who are threatened with death if they choose not to have an abortion.. Isn't that like, psycholigical warfare? It's like the Vietnamese strapping bombs to little children to kill the Americans... I wonder if the "it's me or them" mentality is justified in that situation...
I'm just wondering though...
94 % of abortions are done basically for birth control reasons.
4% for health of the mom or baby
1-2% for rape or insest.
So how would it be to make 94 % of the abortions illegal

reply from: CharlesD

One thing that disturbs me are the arguments that use rape pregnancies as a reason to keep all abortions legal, when you consider the relatively small percentage of abortions that are done as a result of rape pregnancies. People say that abortion has to be kept legal because of rape pregnancies, but if you turn around and concede rape and offer limitations on abortion with rape as an exception, some of those same people oppose that. Would some of you who use rape as a reason be willing to entertain a ban on any abortions except where a rape occurred or the life of the mother is in danger? If you're not willing to at least consider that option, then it seems inconsistent to use those as reasons to keep all abortions legal.

reply from: nsanford

Isn't killing someone a choice and murder at the same time?
That man has a watch I want. I kill him for it.
Isn't that a choice as well as murder?

reply from: Cecilia

So don't keep it. Just don't kill it...
I mean I would have an abortion.
Right. "Not keep it" = euphemism for "kill it."
I would kill my fetus conceived by rape, too. I am absolutely positive, even after doing research instigated by Galen from this forum, that that would be my choice.

reply from: Cecilia

A lack of empathy for rape victims who are unwillingly pregnant is not a character aspect I would want to proclaim so loudly.

reply from: Cecilia

Empathy for the child who is killed does not imply a lack of empathy for the victim of rape. You are being dishonest again. A lack of empathy for an innocent child, accompanied by a declaration that you would callously kill it because you think it would be best for you is not a "character aspect" I would want to proclaim too loudly. I feel for both victims. You, on the other hand, obviously do not.
Can you say "ad hominem" boys and girls? Grow an honest bone in your body. As the brother of a rape victim who was imprisoned for exacting vengeance on her attacker, I resent your dishonest implications more than you will probably ever know.
Note: I toned down my original response before hitting "reply." I decided it would serve no purpose to tell you how I really felt about your response.
I was going to apologize, but I sat and considered and decided that my comment was completely legitimate.
It was inspired by your callous response:
If I were raped, I would certainly care about what I wanted, and why shouldn't I? Because you think differently?
I am being honest in that I would not care about the fetus. I have no empathy for the fetus. It's not an entity to me deserving of empathy. And that is my opinion. I think it is being honest in that you would not care about what the rape victim wanted. And that is a lack of understanding or empathy. I find your views insufferable and insensitive, and the way you presented it callous and unfeeling. I too have history.

reply from: Cecilia

If it's punishment, then the woman suffers as well if you continue to demand that she turns over any sense of empowerment post rape.
Present the information, allow the rape victim to choose.
Have been victimized sexually, I can say that is very, very important.

reply from: sweet

i 100% agree...these are innocent babies!

reply from: Cecilia

Deleted because it was a response to the Christian troll and I don't see the point.

reply from: Cecilia

Killing the baby will give her a sense of empowerment?
Providing her with the decision to make, instead of judges and lawyers and politicians, is providing the empowerment.

reply from: Cecilia

Based upon your callous response, I doubt that highly.

reply from: Cecilia

If you cannot bother yourself with caring about what the victim of rape might think about her unwanted pregnancy, then you are indifferent to her feelings.
Facts about statements you make are not personal attacks. You clearly stated that a rape victim wanting to abort only cares about herself and there is a problem with that. That is clearly lacking empathy. Factual, not personal. Be honest. Your statement was insensitive and callous, and probably sarcastc, and you intended it as such. You attempted to paint the victim darkly.
Your attitude shows you don't care, and your desire to further control her actions shows a lack of care. I support education, and I believe rape victims should be shown the information about abortion post-rape, and then be allowed to decide on their own what course of action they wish to take. Give me a break, you think you know what's best for all rape victims. I would not pretned to be so pompous.
The irony is that you care only about what you think is best for someone, regardless of their personal imput or feelings or situation. It is arrogant at best.

reply from: Cecilia

Out and out dishonest.
Yes, you sound very empathic and caring.

reply from: BossMomma

So says a man who has no idea what it would be like for a woman to be forcibly impregnated and forced to remain that way until she gives birth to a child she never wanted. While your out bashing women you might advise men to keep their sperm to themselves because behind every elective abortion there is a man's seed carelessly sown.

reply from: BossMomma

Killing the baby will give her a sense of empowerment?
Considering rape is about power, she's little better than the rapist.
Easily said for one who will never undergo a pregnancy. You judge so harshly women who were victimized, who lost any right to bodily autonomy then call them rapists when they seek to reclaim it? Pregnancy can be hard physically and emotionally, for some it is even dibilitating, for a woman to be forced to undergo that challenge just because you value the contents of her uterus above her is apathy pure and simple. And deep inside that fake woman's body of yours you are still very much a typical man.

reply from: Cecilia

Killing the baby will give her a sense of empowerment?
Considering rape is about power, she's little better than the rapist.
Easily said for one who will never undergo a pregnancy. You judge so harshly women who were victimized, who lost any right to bodily autonomy then call them rapists when they seek to reclaim it? Pregnancy can be hard physically and emotionally, for some it is even dibilitating, for a woman to be forced to undergo that challenge just because you value the contents of her uterus above her is apathy pure and simple. And deep inside that fake woman's body of yours you are still very much a typical man.
That was definately not empathic and caring.
What the hell is wrong with people?

reply from: yoda

Nor will they acknowledge that not allowing a woman to kill her child is an effort to protect the child from being killed, not to "control" the woman.
They just can't bring themselves to admit any protective instincts on our part.
Apparently, they don't think that human beings ought to ever feel such things as protective instincts towards small children.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Hey, I'm Christian, but my religion plays no part in my pro-life views.
Thank you; that's exactly how I feel nowadays. I used to actually believe that the baby only mattered if it was wanted! It seems silly to me now.
Reminds me of Schroedinger's cat. The unborn is simultaneously a baby and NOT a baby at the same time! That only works in hypothetical discussions, not the real world.
Hey, even slavery became illegal. I definitely think things can change, but you've touched upon something very integral to my pro-life stance: we need gradual change. It CAN happen, but it can't happen instantly.
I think it can change. It's actually more like society had no open legal opinion about abortion at all, not consistently, until this century. Now it's in the open. Now people can have honest discussions.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I have nothing left to say to you.
Ever.
I can't believe she said that to you. O.o She's less a woman than she thinks you are imo, and you are 100% a lady to me!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Nor will they acknowledge that not allowing a woman to kill her child is an effort to protect the child from being killed, not to "control" the woman.
They just can't bring themselves to admit any protective instincts on our part.
Apparently, they don't think that human beings ought to ever feel such things as protective instincts towards small children.
Oh poo, didn't you know? Women who want to give birth and who want other women to give birth are just "breeding cows".

reply from: BossMomma

I have nothing left to say to you.
Ever.
I can't believe she said that to you. O.o She's less a woman than she thinks you are imo, and you are 100% a lady to me!
No I am a woman, I have been raped and know exactly the effect it has on a woman. I have also been pregnant (am pregnant now) and given birth, I have the experience to know what women go through. For that fake to call rape victims rapists...it pissed me off, Vex is the first person to piss me off on this board.
He/she whatever whines about homophobes not respecting his choice, calling him tranny and shemale and what not as if people are just expected to go along with him but has the audacity to make that statement against real women? Yeah, okay whatever. Vex can feel free to ignore me as I will likely respond in kind, but it takes more than estrogen to make a woman.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I have nothing left to say to you.
Ever.
I can't believe she said that to you. O.o She's less a woman than she thinks you are imo, and you are 100% a lady to me!
No I am a woman, I have been raped and know exactly the effect it has on a woman. I have also been pregnant (am pregnant now) and given birth, I have the experience to know what women go through. For that fake to call rape victims rapists...it pissed me off, Vex is the first person to piss me off on this board.
He/she whatever whines about homophobes not respecting his choice, calling him tranny and shemale and what not as if people are just expected to go along with him but has the audacity to make that statement against real women? Yeah, okay whatever. Vex can feel free to ignore me as I will likely respond in kind, but it takes more than estrogen to make a woman.
No. You are not a woman. You are a shell of a human with breasts and a uterus. Your body may give birth, but that does not make you a WOMAN. WOMAN is a state of being; it is a mindset, it is a life style. WOMEN have respect and honor. You do not. You have a foul mouth and mind, a stinging attitude problem, and the audacity to call a REAL woman "shemale". Go get to know some REAL women. You can start with Vexing.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Does that mean women on birth control aren't women, and then become women when they go off? Wait, by that logic, I'm not a woman right now because I haven't had a child yet!! That's moronic.

reply from: Cecilia

Guess what, CP, I have had an abortion. Those who "allowed" it did no harm to me. Those who would disallow it would have harmed me immensely.
But you would not care about an individual's experience or desires; for you, it is about what you want, and what you believe is best for universally for everyone. It's despicable that you would force a rape victim into giving birth.
And I have already shown you how the view is consistant with making rape illegal, you just refused to acknowledge it.

reply from: Cecilia

That is not true and evidence of the growing amount of dishonesty sweeping the board lately.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Does that mean women on birth control aren't women, and then become women when they go off? Wait, by that logic, I'm not a woman right now because I haven't had a child yet!! That's moronic.
I think Vex was being sarcastic (?)
I was too, but if you're not sure Vex was, that's probably why you're confused that I am.

reply from: BossMomma

Women who can't have children are still women, men dressed as women however are still men.

reply from: Cecilia

Women who can't have children are still women, men dressed as women however are still men.
You are no better than CL.

reply from: BossMomma

I have nothing left to say to you.
Ever.
I can't believe she said that to you. O.o She's less a woman than she thinks you are imo, and you are 100% a lady to me!
No I am a woman, I have been raped and know exactly the effect it has on a woman. I have also been pregnant (am pregnant now) and given birth, I have the experience to know what women go through. For that fake to call rape victims rapists...it pissed me off, Vex is the first person to piss me off on this board.
He/she whatever whines about homophobes not respecting his choice, calling him tranny and shemale and what not as if people are just expected to go along with him but has the audacity to make that statement against real women? Yeah, okay whatever. Vex can feel free to ignore me as I will likely respond in kind, but it takes more than estrogen to make a woman.
No. You are not a woman. You are a shell of a human with breasts and a uterus. Your body may give birth, but that does not make you a WOMAN. WOMAN is a state of being; it is a mindset, it is a life style. WOMEN have respect and honor. You do not. You have a foul mouth and mind, a stinging attitude problem, and the audacity to call a REAL woman "shemale". Go get to know some REAL women. You can start with Vexing.
Vexing is not a real woman, he is a wannabe. He expects everyone to respect his choice to toss aside masculinity but then craps on a rape victims choice to rid herself of a pregnancy that was violently thrust upon her. Being a woman is a mindset that only women have, vexing is not a woman, he is a hypocrit and you are simply his butt kisser.

reply from: BossMomma

Women who can't have children are still women, men dressed as women however are still men.
You are no better than CL.
I might take offense if I knew who in the hell CL was. And I don't care if you're disgusted. If you were raped and impregnanted I doubt you'd appreciate a dude with breasts calling you a rapist for doing as you said you would and aborting.

reply from: Draiocht

Vexing is no different than any other infertile woman on the planet and while I'm shocked and appalled at being compared to a rapist because I would not allow something forced on me to use my body against my will, I've seen both men and women of varying fertility/gender/sexuality status insult rape victims this way.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Vexing is not a man, so that could be why you and BM are both confused. Vexing is a woman, and she has been raped. Just like any other infertile woman, she does not have the fear of being further "violated" by an unwanted pregnancy. Or are infertile women who get raped not "real" women?

reply from: BossMomma

Vexing is a man taking synthetic estrogen to appear as a woman, he would never be faced with unwanted pregnancy even if he were raped and expects everyone to respect his choice to be transgender but doesn't seem to feel the need to respect the choices of real women.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh PLEASE. Did you actually read what BM wrote? It's filthy.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Vexing is a man taking synthetic estrogen to appear as a woman, he would never be faced with unwanted pregnancy even if he were raped and expects everyone to respect his choice to be transgender but doesn't seem to feel the need to respect the choices of real women.
Infertile women could never be faced with an unwanted pregnancy even if they were raped. They must not be real women.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Rape abortions account for less than 1% of all abortions, so clearly, most women who become pregnant from rape don't abort. Many who DO, regret it. I think a lot more research needs to be put into studying the effects of abortion on post-rape women. The frightening trend seems to be that abortion is not a healthy solution.

reply from: BossMomma

No, I have a problem with vex calling rape victims equal to their rapist for aborting a pregnancy as a result of rape. I have a problem with vex demanding that everyone respect his bizarre lifestyle but he gets to trod upon the choice of a raped woman to abort a pregnancy begotten of rape. It struck a nerve to be sure and while my words were harsh I don't regret them. If one wishes to have their choices respected, they should open their own minds to the choices of others, if not, they may find themself tasting the same critisism that they so freely dole out.

reply from: BossMomma

Vexing is a man taking synthetic estrogen to appear as a woman, he would never be faced with unwanted pregnancy even if he were raped and expects everyone to respect his choice to be transgender but doesn't seem to feel the need to respect the choices of real women.
Infertile women could never be faced with an unwanted pregnancy even if they were raped. They must not be real women.
No, but infertile women were born women, not made that way with estrogen supplements.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The comparison has weight though, if you'd just stop freaking out for a moment and relax. Look. The unborn is a human, whether it is a person is up to your opinion. Abortion kills a human. Rape violates a human. Abortion violates a human. So yes, you can compare a woman who aborts and a rapist. I DON'T AGREE, but I can understand the comparison. I don't think it's fair to kill a human because you have been raped, but I can also understand that some women who are raped and become pregnant may feel like the rapist is growing inside of them. What I think these women need is therapy, not an abortion. I don't think it's healthy to think there is a terrible monster growing inside of you when it's just a baby.

reply from: CharlesD

That is so insulting in so many ways. I know I'm the new guy around here and when I go to a new group I usually try to stay out of disputes until I get the feel of a group, how seriously to take certain people and what not. But this is where I draw the line. What you wrote might be easy to say for someone who has never experienced the pain of not being able to conceive. A pregnancy lasts how long? Nine months? Compare that nine months to the seven years and one week that my wife and I have been married and infertile. The last time I checked seven years was a hell of a lot longer than nine months. Do you have any idea what we have been going through all this time, how it feels every time some family at church shows up with a new baby and everyone is making over it, how it feels to see families with children in public, how it feels to be at a church event where the children are performing and you see all the parents with their cameras beaming with pride while they snap photo after photo? Do you have a clue how it breaks my heart to see how my wife interacts with children because I see the motherly instincts in her and I know how much she longs to have one of her own? Do you have any earthly idea how much pain infertile people go through? If you would have been in our home when there was a news story on tv about someone who had killed her child and my wife had tears in her eyes when she said, "How fair is it that people like that can have children when there are those who would care for them who can't?", what would have been your response to that? Is my wife less of a woman because she can't conceive? I don't think so. She's more of a woman than you could ever hope to be. I've seen some sorry things on the internet over the years, but that is by far the most inconsiderate piece of filth I think I've ever read on a message board. It's easy to say things like that online when you can hide behind some pseudonym, but I dare you to say that to an infertile woman to her face. You probably wouldn't have the guts.

reply from: BossMomma

That is so insulting in so many ways. I know I'm the new guy around here and when I go to a new group I usually try to stay out of disputes until I get the feel of a group, how seriously to take certain people and what not. But this is where I draw the line. What you wrote might be easy to say for someone who has never experienced the pain of not being able to conceive. A pregnancy lasts how long? Nine months? Compare that nine months to the seven years and one week that my wife and I have been married and infertile. The last time I checked seven years was a hell of a lot longer than nine months. Do you have any idea what we have been going through all this time, how it feels every time some family at church shows up with a new baby and everyone is making over it, how it feels to see families with children in public, how it feels to be at a church event where the children are performing and you see all the parents with their cameras beaming with pride while they snap photo after photo? Do you have a clue how it breaks my heart to see how my wife interacts with children because I see the motherly instincts in her and I know how much she longs to have one of her own? Do you have any earthly idea how much pain infertile people go through? If you would have been in our home when there was a news story on tv about someone who had killed her child and my wife had tears in her eyes when she said, "How fair is it that people like that can have children when there are those who would care for them who can't?", what would have been your response to that? Is my wife less of a woman because she can't conceive? I don't think so. She's more of a woman than you could ever hope to be. I've seen some sorry things on the internet over the years, but that is by far the most inconsiderate piece of filth I think I've ever read on a message board. It's easy to say things like that online when you can hide behind some pseudonym, but I dare you to say that to an infertile woman to her face. You probably wouldn't have the guts.
I never spoke out against infertile women, that was misunderstood. Vexing is a man attempting to become a woman, he is not an infertile woman, he is a man going through a sex change. I feel for you and your wife, have you tried adoption or inventro? I spoke against Vexing because of his continuous whining about how others don't accept his choice to be transgender but he turns right around and calls rape victims "rapists" if they refuse to be forced into pregnancy. My sympathies to your situation but you should get your facts straight. As to my having guts, I work around 1300 inmates a night, very little scares me.

reply from: CharlesD

That is so insulting in so many ways. I know I'm the new guy around here and when I go to a new group I usually try to stay out of disputes until I get the feel of a group, how seriously to take certain people and what not. But this is where I draw the line. What you wrote might be easy to say for someone who has never experienced the pain of not being able to conceive. A pregnancy lasts how long? Nine months? Compare that nine months to the seven years and one week that my wife and I have been married and infertile. The last time I checked seven years was a hell of a lot longer than nine months. Do you have any idea what we have been going through all this time, how it feels every time some family at church shows up with a new baby and everyone is making over it, how it feels to see families with children in public, how it feels to be at a church event where the children are performing and you see all the parents with their cameras beaming with pride while they snap photo after photo? Do you have a clue how it breaks my heart to see how my wife interacts with children because I see the motherly instincts in her and I know how much she longs to have one of her own? Do you have any earthly idea how much pain infertile people go through? If you would have been in our home when there was a news story on tv about someone who had killed her child and my wife had tears in her eyes when she said, "How fair is it that people like that can have children when there are those who would care for them who can't?", what would have been your response to that? Is my wife less of a woman because she can't conceive? I don't think so. She's more of a woman than you could ever hope to be. I've seen some sorry things on the internet over the years, but that is by far the most inconsiderate piece of filth I think I've ever read on a message board. It's easy to say things like that online when you can hide behind some pseudonym, but I dare you to say that to an infertile woman to her face. You probably wouldn't have the guts.
I never spoke out against infertile women, that was misunderstood. Vexing is a man attempting to become a woman, he is not an infertile woman, he is a man going through a sex change. I feel for you and your wife, have you tried adoption or inventro? I spoke against Vexing because of his continuous whining about how others don't accept his choice to be transgender but he turns right around and calls rape victims "rapists" if they refuse to be forced into pregnancy. My sympathies to your situation but you should get your facts straight. As to my having guts, I work around 1300 inmates a night, very little scares me.
Well, I hadn't read through the whole topic when I responded, which maybe I should have done. With the information I had at the moment, that is what it seemed, which explains the force of my reaction. I was reacting to what I saw on the surface, which appeared to be a derogatory remark about an infertile woman and it kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
Anyway, we have been looking into IVF, but we need to get rid of those nasty fibroids first. There is a chance that the way things are now a fertilized egg might not attach itself property when introduced back into the womb. If that doesn't work, then adoption will be the next option, but we had really been hoping to have one of our own. That's why this issue is pretty touchy with me. I was pro life long before I got married, but now I'm even more so. I just have a hard time understanding how people could get pregnant and then choose to terminate it. It's beyond me.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't care if you were trying to point out that this is what BossMomma said or not, it's still *****ing insulting to have it re-iterated.
Oh, and BM most certainly DOES have a problem with my gender. Else she wouldn't call it 'bizarre' or a 'lifestyle'.
It was equally insulting for you to call rape victims rapists because you think that they should be forced to remain pregnant by them, a situation YOU would never face. I do find transgender bizarre, but I'm accepting and even supportive of those who live that way. What I am not supportive of is someone who will do something that strange and expect everyone to be respectful of it but then turn around and crap on the choice of others. If you can't take it, don't dish it.

reply from: BossMomma

That is so insulting in so many ways. I know I'm the new guy around here and when I go to a new group I usually try to stay out of disputes until I get the feel of a group, how seriously to take certain people and what not. But this is where I draw the line. What you wrote might be easy to say for someone who has never experienced the pain of not being able to conceive. A pregnancy lasts how long? Nine months? Compare that nine months to the seven years and one week that my wife and I have been married and infertile. The last time I checked seven years was a hell of a lot longer than nine months. Do you have any idea what we have been going through all this time, how it feels every time some family at church shows up with a new baby and everyone is making over it, how it feels to see families with children in public, how it feels to be at a church event where the children are performing and you see all the parents with their cameras beaming with pride while they snap photo after photo? Do you have a clue how it breaks my heart to see how my wife interacts with children because I see the motherly instincts in her and I know how much she longs to have one of her own? Do you have any earthly idea how much pain infertile people go through? If you would have been in our home when there was a news story on tv about someone who had killed her child and my wife had tears in her eyes when she said, "How fair is it that people like that can have children when there are those who would care for them who can't?", what would have been your response to that? Is my wife less of a woman because she can't conceive? I don't think so. She's more of a woman than you could ever hope to be. I've seen some sorry things on the internet over the years, but that is by far the most inconsiderate piece of filth I think I've ever read on a message board. It's easy to say things like that online when you can hide behind some pseudonym, but I dare you to say that to an infertile woman to her face. You probably wouldn't have the guts.
I never spoke out against infertile women, that was misunderstood. Vexing is a man attempting to become a woman, he is not an infertile woman, he is a man going through a sex change. I feel for you and your wife, have you tried adoption or inventro? I spoke against Vexing because of his continuous whining about how others don't accept his choice to be transgender but he turns right around and calls rape victims "rapists" if they refuse to be forced into pregnancy. My sympathies to your situation but you should get your facts straight. As to my having guts, I work around 1300 inmates a night, very little scares me.
Well, I hadn't read through the whole topic when I responded, which maybe I should have done. With the information I had at the moment, that is what it seemed, which explains the force of my reaction. I was reacting to what I saw on the surface, which appeared to be a derogatory remark about an infertile woman and it kind of rubbed me the wrong way.
Anyway, we have been looking into IVF, but we need to get rid of those nasty fibroids first. There is a chance that the way things are now a fertilized egg might not attach itself property when introduced back into the womb. If that doesn't work, then adoption will be the next option, but we had really been hoping to have one of our own. That's why this issue is pretty touchy with me. I was pro life long before I got married, but now I'm even more so. I just have a hard time understanding how people could get pregnant and then choose to terminate it. It's beyond me.
I really don't know either, I'm 19 weeks pregnant as we speak and while the pregnancy is very hard on me I look forward to the child to come. Pregnancy, children and, motherhood are not a blessing to every woman, those who want children and can't have them don't see that. My heart goes out to you and your spouse and I'm sure that eventually the powers that be will grant you your dream, with the resources available today, adoption, invetro, surrogates etc. anything can happen.

reply from: lukesmom

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.

reply from: BossMomma

No, I did not misunderstood what you said, I understood it very clearly. Rape is about dominating and violating another person, about showing them how worthless you are. When I was 15 I had a knife at my throat, my virginity was violently taken and when he was done I was told I was nothing.
I thank what ever powers that be that he wore a condom. I never told my parents, my step dad who beat me regularly would have only used it against me. I had nightmares for years, my arms bare the scars of my suicide attempts, one of which nearly succeeded. Had I been impregnated it would have been evident to everyone, including my step father. When you have faced that, then you can judge rape victims and their choices.

reply from: lukesmom

Right and the cruelity your post contained was NOTHING like what you suffered? Please! You are all about dominating and violating here.

reply from: BossMomma

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.
So tell me, in your professional ***** opinion what the hell a woman is.

reply from: BossMomma

Right and the cruelity your post contained was NOTHING like what you suffered? Please! You are all about dominating and violating here.
It was no more cruel and dominating than what vex said, if vex can't handle his own medicine then he shouldn't be passing it out.

reply from: lukesmom

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.
So tell me, in your professional ***** opinion what the hell a woman is.
Well, well, well, so you are ending the "silence". There is nothing professional about what my opinion of a woman is. Being a woman has nothing to do with features or body organs. Being a woman is beyond female organs the same as being a man is beyond male organs. I know many woman who are flat as a board or have gone through hysterectomies, oopherectomies or mastectomies and are still women. Then there are women born without female organs but are still women. I also know females who have female organs but are still girls in their actions. Also you have teh females who have the organs but think and function successfully as males in society. So, a woman is a mature human being who thinks and acts like a female BEYOND their organs.
No female needs female traits ie: breasts or female reproductive organs to be a woman. If this were true every female would be a woman instead of a girl and women who were born without reproductive organs, "traits" or had these removed would not be a woman.

reply from: Cecilia

I think if you simply identify as a woman then that makes you so.

reply from: lukesmom

Right and the cruelity your post contained was NOTHING like what you suffered? Please! You are all about dominating and violating here.
It was no more cruel and dominating than what vex said, if vex can't handle his own medicine then he shouldn't be passing it out.
It is not just Vexing. You have insulted and alienated many people here with your hateful and nasty personal remarks. You have a chip the size of Chicago on your shoulder and have to be about the angriest person here. Confront your own demons before you start personally attacking others.

reply from: BossMomma

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.
So tell me, in your professional ***** opinion what the hell a woman is.
Well, well, well, so you are ending the "silence". There is nothing professional about what my opinion of a woman is. Being a woman has nothing to do with features or body organs. Being a woman is beyond female organs the same as being a man is beyond male organs. I know many woman who are flat as a board or have gone through hysterectomies, oopherectomies or mastectomies and are still women. Then there are women born without female organs but are still women. I also know females who have female organs but are still girls in their actions. Also you have teh females who have the organs but think and function successfully as males in society. So, a woman is a mature human being who thinks and acts like a female BEYOND their organs.
No female needs female traits ie: breasts or organs to be a woman. If this were true every female would be a woman instead of a girl and women who were born without reproductive organs, "traits" or had these removed would not be a woman.
......... You still aren't making a point, but that's no surprise. The fact remains that women are born, not created. A woman is a mature human female. It has nothing to do with reproductive organs, fertile or infertile. Being a "real woman" is not a state of mind, it's not a lifestyle, it is a gender a person is born to. All baby girls grow to be women, if they choose to take testosterone, remove their breasts, extend their clitoris into a small penis they are not real men, they are cosmetic imitations of the real thing. Try again when you know something I don't.

reply from: BossMomma

Right and the cruelity your post contained was NOTHING like what you suffered? Please! You are all about dominating and violating here.
It was no more cruel and dominating than what vex said, if vex can't handle his own medicine then he shouldn't be passing it out.
It is not just Vexing. You have insulted and alienated many people here with your hateful and nasty personal remarks. You have a chip the size of Chicago on your shoulder and have to be about the angriest person here. Confront your own demons before you start personally attacking others.
No, I snapped back at one person, vexing and no one else because he attacked rape victims shamelessly. I did get very angry that one time and when angered I don't sugar coat my thoughts, I don't care about "politically correct" and, if vex can speak his thoughts in such a hateful fashion I'm equally entitled to do the same.

reply from: BossMomma

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.

reply from: lukesmom

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.
So tell me, in your professional ***** opinion what the hell a woman is.
Well, well, well, so you are ending the "silence". There is nothing professional about what my opinion of a woman is. Being a woman has nothing to do with features or body organs. Being a woman is beyond female organs the same as being a man is beyond male organs. I know many woman who are flat as a board or have gone through hysterectomies, oopherectomies or mastectomies and are still women. Then there are women born without female organs but are still women. I also know females who have female organs but are still girls in their actions. Also you have teh females who have the organs but think and function successfully as males in society. So, a woman is a mature human being who thinks and acts like a female BEYOND their organs.
No female needs female traits ie: breasts or organs to be a woman. If this were true every female would be a woman instead of a girl and women who were born without reproductive organs, "traits" or had these removed would not be a woman.
......... You still aren't making a point, but that's no surprise. The fact remains that women are born, not created. A woman is a mature human female. It has nothing to do with reproductive organs, fertile or infertile. Being a "real woman" is not a state of mind, it's not a lifestyle, it is a gender a person is born to. All baby girls grow to be women, if they choose to take testosterone, remove their breasts, extend their clitoris into a small penis they are not real men, they are cosmetic imitations of the real thing. Try again when you know something I don't.
No woman is "born" but instead evolves. A female is born and, in most cases, becomes a girl and then if she matures, becomes a woman. Not all baby girls become women, many of them never mature in their actions and remain "girls" no matter what their age.
What about the people who are born with both sets of reproductive organs, Hymenolepiasis, or Ambiguous Genitalia where the outer genitals do not have the typical appearance of either a boy or a girl?

reply from: lukesmom

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.
Be my guest. I have a neighbor for you to meet.

reply from: lukesmom

It also takes more than tits and a uterus too. Get a clue, will yah.
So tell me, in your professional ***** opinion what the hell a woman is.
Well, well, well, so you are ending the "silence". There is nothing professional about what my opinion of a woman is. Being a woman has nothing to do with features or body organs. Being a woman is beyond female organs the same as being a man is beyond male organs. I know many woman who are flat as a board or have gone through hysterectomies, oopherectomies or mastectomies and are still women. Then there are women born without female organs but are still women. I also know females who have female organs but are still girls in their actions. Also you have teh females who have the organs but think and function successfully as males in society. So, a woman is a mature human being who thinks and acts like a female BEYOND their organs.
No female needs female traits ie: breasts or organs to be a woman. If this were true every female would be a woman instead of a girl and women who were born without reproductive organs, "traits" or had these removed would not be a woman.
......... You still aren't making a point, but that's no surprise. The fact remains that women are born, not created. A woman is a mature human female. It has nothing to do with reproductive organs, fertile or infertile. Being a "real woman" is not a state of mind, it's not a lifestyle, it is a gender a person is born to. All baby girls grow to be women, if they choose to take testosterone, remove their breasts, extend their clitoris into a small penis they are not real men, they are cosmetic imitations of the real thing. Try again when you know something I don't.
No woman is "born" but instead evolves. A female is born and, in most cases, becomes a girl and then if she matures, becomes a woman. Not all baby girls become women, many of them never mature in their actions and remain "girls" no matter what their age.
What about the people who are born with both sets of reproductive organs, Hymenolepiasis, or Ambiguous Genitalia where the outer genitals do not have the typical appearance of either a boy or a girl?
Bumping for bossy

reply from: lukesmom

Is bossy evading again? Come out, come out, wherever you are!

reply from: Cecilia

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.
If you identify as a man, who am I to tell you that you are not? You are insensitive to the needs and psychology of those who are intersexed and/or transgendered. I would form an educated opinion before I started slamming others.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Ka chow You go girl!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.
Of course you can. I definitely know so.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

We (sane) people love you Vexing!! I've actually got an intersexed friend who was raised female until highschool and then CHOSE to live as a male. He's hilarious to be around and he is a HE, just as you are a SHE. Period.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No she didn't, and if you had read her long post you would realise that. You would also realise you're STILL WRONG for calling her "he" because - as she said - she NEVER WAS really MALE. You didn't sugar coat your STUPIDITY.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's what I meant when I said BM wasn't a woman, so I definitely agree with you there!

reply from: BossMomma

No, bossy has a family to take care of and can't spend 24 hours sitting on her ass. My kids are asleep now so here I am.

reply from: BossMomma

And no one is stepping on your right to be whatever you want, it was you who after all this whining about homophobes and how no one respects your choice but then you turn around and take a proverbial dump on the rights of someone else. :Smirks:

reply from: BossMomma

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.
If you identify as a man, who am I to tell you that you are not? You are insensitive to the needs and psychology of those who are intersexed and/or transgendered. I would form an educated opinion before I started slamming others.
As I recall it was vexing who was slamming rape victims first, but obviously you have no problem with that so long as everyone remained sensitive to vexing, poor little vexing.

reply from: BossMomma

So if I identify as a man I can be a man? I don't think so.
Vexings case isn't just a simple transgender case. Her chromosones are XXY - I think she referred to this as 'intersex'. She didn't go through female OR male puberty.
And I am sorry for the horrible assault on you BM
Eh, It's fine. And I'm sorry about vexing's situation and was even very empathic and supportive until the callous statement about women like me who have been violated to the fullest extent. Then suddenly I'm an insensitive biotch for getting angry.
It's why I never really side with group A. or group B. because there are jerks on either side of the board like LukesMom who got very hurt when SpinWiddy refered to abnormal fetii such as anacephalics as hideous mutant messes, her anacephalic son was never mentioned but LM still took it personal, now when something hits a nerve on my end and I speak out she takes the opportunity to launch one unwarrented attack after another.
Cecelia has been up my back end after she stated she would abort a pregnancy of rape, vexing would have been calling her a rapist too but that's ok so long as I remain as sensitive as possible to poor vexing who apparently uses a gender crisis as an excuse to belittle others.

reply from: BossMomma

Lol, "come out"
Why does everyone assume I'll put my kids aside and diddle around this board all day? I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only parent here.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't think you gave a damn about abortion in the first place when the majority of your posts are about homophobes and your gender situation.

reply from: BossMomma

I know what you were slamming, the empowerment of women to take their bodies back after being used by a rapist and left pregnant. No woman is less valuable than the seed in their womb, especially when she didn't even agree to the sex that put it there. You are the ignorant one here as you will never know.

reply from: BossMomma

*Shrug*
So I'm passionate about GLBTI rights.
So what?
This isn't a gay rights board, it's about abortion which is a choice you'll never make. I support gay rights too, I support gay marriage and the ability to decide what gender one claims to be, but at the same time I respect my rights too, my reproductive choices and my body. When my rights get stepped on, especially by someone I've supported and defended, you bet your sweet bippy I'll get mad.

reply from: BossMomma

It's not a Wiccan board either.
LOL PWND!
Damn, you walked right into that one, captain obvious.
And aren't you clever Miss king for a day princess by dawn.

reply from: lukesmom

It's not a Wiccan board either.
LOL PWND!
Damn, you walked right into that one, captain obvious.
Stizzzzzz, MAJOR burn!

reply from: BossMomma

Yes, yes I am.
And you are not.
lol nope, just a woman here.

reply from: BossMomma

It's not a Wiccan board either.
LOL PWND!
Damn, you walked right into that one, captain obvious.
Stizzzzzz, MAJOR burn!
And there's LM predictably yapping behind the legs of someone else. Good girl.

reply from: lukesmom

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.

reply from: BossMomma

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.
Those are called hermaphrodites and are usually classified as either one or the other.

reply from: lukesmom

Does anyone else see the pattern with Bossy? When she can't intellectually argue a point she either evades, changes the subject and/or falls back on name calling and general rudeness.

reply from: BossMomma

I've always agreed with that.
Don't be so sure. Medical science is still leaping along nicely; I may have a uterus one day
Lovely, then you could be the "baby momma daddy" @@ and if you agreed that the woman is more valuable than the fetus you wouldn't have made that crass statement about rape victims.

reply from: lukesmom

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.
Those are called hermaphrodites and are usually classified as either one or the other.
And who classifies them as one or the other? After all, your words, .

reply from: BossMomma

Kind of like your pattern of following me around and jumping into my arguments with others as an excuse to attack me? Bad doggy, no treat for you.

reply from: BossMomma

Actually, having an Intersex person as a friend, they much prefer 'Intersex' to 'Hermaphrodite - which is an archaic term.
Same difference. I prefer being called a woman to being called a female but either term is applicable.

reply from: BossMomma

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.
Those are called hermaphrodites and are usually classified as either one or the other.
And who classifies them as one or the other? After all, your words, .
A doctor I would think, a gender has to be assigned for the use of legal documents such as birth cert.

reply from: BossMomma

No. 'Woman' and 'female' are not archaic.
So the term is out dated, the term is still applicable for those born with both male and female genetalia. Terms change all the time according to politically correctness. Like "Gay", and "Same sex oriented" or "homosexual" some gays resent being called homosexual even though the term is applicable.

reply from: lukesmom

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.
Those are called hermaphrodites and are usually classified as either one or the other.
And who classifies them as one or the other? After all, your words, .
A doctor I would think, a gender has to be assigned for the use of legal documents such as birth cert.
Wrong, the parents decide and no, they don't have to decide immediatly.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/prin...ll&METHOD=print
<br ">http://www.mayoclinic....rin.....ETHOD=print
Using the information gathered from these tests, your doctor may suggest an appropriate sex for the baby.
However, for others born with ambiguous genitalia, the severity of the condition, complicated hormone levels and trouble adjusting to their assigned sex may make it difficult or impossible to conceive a child later in life.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medline...icle/003269.htm
<br ">http://www.nlm.nih.gov...ine...../003269.htm
Sometimes, the ambiguity is such that a choice must be made whether to raise the child as male or female (regardless of the child's chromosomes). This choice can have tremendous social and psychological impact on the child, so counseling is usually recommended.
Note: It is often technically easier to treat (and therefore raise) the child as female (it is easier for a surgeon to make female genitalia than it is to make male genitalia), so in some cases this is recommended even if the child is genetically male. However, this is a difficult decision and should be discussed with your family, your doctor, and the surgeon involved
So there you go.

reply from: BossMomma

And once again bossy has evaded the question. No suprise there.
Those are called hermaphrodites and are usually classified as either one or the other.
And who classifies them as one or the other? After all, your words, .
A doctor I would think, a gender has to be assigned for the use of legal documents such as birth cert.
Wrong, the parents decide and no, they don't have to decide immediatly.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/prin...ll&METHOD=print
<br ">http://www.mayoclinic....rin.....rint
Using the information gathered from these tests, your doctor may suggest an appropriate sex for the baby.
However, for others born with ambiguous genitalia, the severity of the condition, complicated hormone levels and trouble adjusting to their assigned sex may make it difficult or impossible to conceive a child later in life.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medline...icle/003269.htm
<br ">http://www.nlm.nih.gov...ine......htm
Sometimes, the ambiguity is such that a choice must be made whether to raise the child as male or female (regardless of the child's chromosomes). This choice can have tremendous social and psychological impact on the child, so counseling is usually recommended.
Note: It is often technically easier to treat (and therefore raise) the child as female (it is easier for a surgeon to make female genitalia than it is to make male genitalia), so in some cases this is recommended even if the child is genetically male. However, this is a difficult decision and should be discussed with your family, your doctor, and the surgeon involved
So there you go, women are not born.
Yes they are, it said even if the child is genetically male it's easier to make female genitals than it is male. Some of these surgically created females still go on to experience male puberty, increased testosterone etc. I even watched a documentary about a baby boy, Bruce who lost his penis in a botched circumcision and so, under doctors advice he was given female genitals and raised as Brenda by his parents. However, he always knew something wasn't right, he still underwent the changes of a boy to a man and ended up killing himself over the shame once he found out. True Women are born.

reply from: lukesmom

You DON"T get it! Who signs the consent form for the surgical procedure? The parents. Read girl, nowhere did it say the doctor was making the actual decision, only that it is easier to make female genitals than male. The doctor recommends but the parents consent or refuses the recommendation so therefore the parent's decide. You are saying the US National Library of Medicine litature is wrong and you are right?
And as women are mature adults, they can not be born. Females may be born but women are not. That is the same as saying a male is a man at birth.

reply from: BossMomma

Kind of like you will never experience pregnancy from rape. I honestly feel bad for your situation and wish you the best, but at the same time, don't tread on me or others like me. I will take it upon myself to apologize for my comments concerning your gender, I will admit my temper went out of control as the topic discussed was a huge sore spot. I will even promise you never to make those comments again. All I ask is that you give me and women like me the same consideration. Fair enough?

reply from: BossMomma

I've already stated that I won't be talking about either side of the issue.
I also never intended for my comment to be interpreted the way you interpreted it, nor was it intended to make anyone pissy or angry or whatever.
Whereas your comments were deliberately designed to be inflammatory.
But you've apologised, so I don't see any point in hammering on about it anymore.
Peace.
Peace

reply from: yoda

I think those huge spaces in people's posts are indicative of huge spaces in their brains.....

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I think those huge spaces in people's posts are indicative of huge spaces in their brains.....
Actually it's indicative of terrible, horrible coding in the background of this website. It's sloppy coding, lazy coding, amature coding. It has nothing to do with the people using the site.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lol, "come out"
Why does everyone assume I'll put my kids aside and diddle around this board all day? I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only parent here.
Actually, my joke implied you're a closet lesbian. And it's just because you're not on at the same time of day as they are. I work all day, so I can only come on in the afternoon.

reply from: yoda

Sure it does. All you have to do is delete the spaces before posting.
So maybe "lazy" would describe them?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Sure it does. All you have to do is delete the spaces before posting.
So maybe "lazy" would describe them?
You shouldn't HAVE to delete all of those spaces. A forum should function correctly, not badly. It's like saying a person in a car where the tire blows out should still be able to drive perfectly. It's absurd.

reply from: BossMomma

Lol, "come out"
Why does everyone assume I'll put my kids aside and diddle around this board all day? I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only parent here.
Actually, my joke implied you're a closet lesbian. And it's just because you're not on at the same time of day as they are. I work all day, so I can only come on in the afternoon.
My boyfriend knows without a shadow of a doubt I'm straight, if I were gay, I'd have no shame in persuing women. And I'd be childless.

reply from: BossMomma

Sure it does. All you have to do is delete the spaces before posting.
So maybe "lazy" would describe them?
Maybe your just not worth the effort.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lol, that too. And that's the thing out of all three that takes the least effort.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Lol, "come out"
Why does everyone assume I'll put my kids aside and diddle around this board all day? I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only parent here.
Actually, my joke implied you're a closet lesbian. And it's just because you're not on at the same time of day as they are. I work all day, so I can only come on in the afternoon.
My boyfriend knows without a shadow of a doubt I'm straight, if I were gay, I'd have no shame in persuing women. And I'd be childless.
That's why it was an implication, not an accusation. That's also why it was a joke.

reply from: yoda

What we HAVE to do is use the forum AS WE FIND IT...... or not at all.
Forum owners are under no obligation to change it to suit us, or to be more like other forums.
Forum USERS do have an obligation to be courteous to other users and readers, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Fine, but why inconvenience everyone else?

reply from: BossMomma

Fine, but why inconvenience everyone else?
Funny, no one is complaining but you and CP and I really don't give a damn for either of you.


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