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PP is now publishing kiddie porn

no suprise there...

by: lukesmom

Pro-Life
Pro-life Grandma Faces Prison for Refusing to Return Kid-Geared Porn to Library
August 29th, 2008 by American Life League ·Print ·ShareThis
Time is running out for American Life League supporter JoAn Karkos. The Maine woman has until 4 p.m. Friday, Aug. 29 to return the sexually explicit children's book It's Perfectly Normal to a public library in Lewiston.
If she does not, the 64-year-old grandmother may face jail time.
"I'm not giving the book back," Karkos said. "Every citizen has an obligation to protect the innocence of children."
Karkos said she was inspired to check the book out of the library in September 2007 after reading an American Life League alert about the pornographic cartoon sex content in the book by Robie H. Harris. The book should be nowhere near children, according to Karkos.
Meant as sex education for preteens and adolescents as young as 10, It's Perfectly Normal contains cartoons of naked men and women in various sexual poses, long-winded descriptions of masturbation and homosexuality as depictions of 'perfectly normal' behavior.
It's been endorsed and circulated by Planned Parenthood Federation of America, the nation's largest abortion chain.
"The book subverts true liberty, hates well-ordered discipline, and wages [war] against peace and harmony in public and private lives of youth and children," Karkos said. "I refused to return the borrowed book."
Karkos sent the library a check for $20.95 to cover the cost of the book. The check was sent back.
Now, unable to find a lawyer to represent her, Karkos represented herself in Maine's 8th District Court Aug. 27. The judge ordered her to sit in the courtroom until she returned the book. An hour later, the judge revised the order and gave Karkos until Friday.
"JoAn is a courageous hero standing against one of the vilest examples of Planned Parenthood's war on families and hatred for childhood innocence," said Judie Brown. "We hope her trial will alert parents, who can no longer trust libraries to be free of pornography, even in the children's section. We now know the abortion industry is willing to invade our public libraries to distribute inappropriate information and get our kids hooked on sex."
The Sun Journal: She'd Rather Go to Jail (28 August 2008)
http://nvs.all.org/sendstudio/link.php?M=46264&N=441&L=1968&F=H

The Boston Channel: Woman Ordered: Return "Dangerous" Book (28 August 2008)
http://nvs.all.org/sendstudio/link.php?M=46264&N=441&L=1967&F=H

The Sun Journal: Woman Keeps Sex-ed Books (18 September 2007)
http://nvs.all.org/sendstudio/link.php?M=46264&N=441&L=1969&F=H

This article is courtesy of the American Life League.

reply from: Cecilia

This is absurd and ridiculous.
She sounds like a thief. She stole tax dollars.
If I take your TV because I don't like what you watch and send you a check for it, is that okay?
We should not support the ignorance of teens. We should not teach them their bodies are shameful. We should be teaching them factual information about how to avoid unwanted pregnancies. Many parents don't have the guts to talk to their kids, and if you doubt that, go look on some teen sites about pregnancies. Kids don't know anything.
Here's the Amazon.com editorial review on the book:
In this intelligent, amiable and carefully researched book, Harris ( Before You Were Three ) frankly explains the physical, psychological, emotional and social changes that occur during puberty--and the implications of these changes. Taking a conversational, relaxed tone, Harris also discusses such subjects as sexual orientation, sexual reproduction, pregnancy, birth control, sexually transmitted diseases and sexual abuse. The author intentionally and effectively repeats certain crucial information, especially on the subject of the possible consequences of sexual intercourse. Alternately playful and realistic (and occasionally graphic), Emberley's ( Ruby ) watercolor-and-pencil art reinforces Harris's message that bodies come in all sizes, shapes and colors--and that each variation is "perfectly normal." Cartoon panels illustrate various complicated processes (e.g., menstruation, the fertilization of an egg, childbirth). Appearing on each spread are two characters--an easy-going bird and an apprehensive bee--whose comments add levity to this solid volume. Ages 10-14.

reply from: KaylieBee

Nice misleading title.

reply from: Cecilia

Unless lukesmom really believes that sexual education materials for teens is 'kiddie porn' and I would not rule it out.

reply from: Jameberlin

Unless lukesmom really believes that sexual education materials for teens is 'kiddie porn' and I would not rule it out.
Apparently the book has actual illustrations of sex acts without being "too explicit". I would say it's up to the parent to decide if they feel this type of education is appropriate for their child... I don't know that it's necessary to teach kids as young as ten about AIDS, or give them illustrations of different sex acts though...
I think it's funny, that the government considers having sex in front of your child abuse, so is watching porn (or having pornographic print material), or even some R-rated movies in front of them... But you can give them a book with pictures of people engaging in various sex acts and it's suddenly educational, as long as you don't show penetration and include information on "sperm meets egg".
I'd like to point out that there are a lot of "art" films that have instances of REAL SEX between people and don't show penetration, but it doesn't change the fact that you're watching two people have sex on tv.
Some people like to have sex with animals.. someone should write a book about how that's also a perfectly natural tendency and show children how that can be accomplished, as long as they include information about periods and sperm production... it's just education.
Sorry, i'm feeling especially cynical today.
I do fully advocate providing information on preventing pregnancy, venereal disease and emotional trauma. I think teens are SERIOUSLY misguided and undereducated about sex today, and i think it's terribly sad. I don't think that showing a kid pictures of people having sex is going to teach them much in the way of how their bodies grow through puberty, or how different people react to sex. Were this book a movie, it would be rated NC-17.
I also love the hypocrisy of a child under 18 not being allowed to purchase a game like "Halo" while he can go into a book store and purchase his very own copy of American Psycho at age 10 with no trouble at all.
The fact of the matter is, there is no censorship for literature. No "parents strongly cautioned" no "for adults only" warning. When was the last time you went to Barnes and Noble and couldn't find books on tantric sex, anal fisting or the like? Everyone knows romance novels are old lady porn, but they're not locked away behind a black curtain... Parents really need to pay attention to not only to what their kids are watching, playing and listening too, but what they're reading as well.
If this book had non-explicit pictures of real life people engaging in sex acts, it would be porn... but since they're only illustrations it's "education". Apparently these people aren't familiar with Hentai from Japan... All cartoon porn, some people are ONLY attracted to cartoons... I wonder if this is a natural tendency or one born out of porn addiction. :/
I wonder if looking at people having sex from an early age could affect a person's view on porn as an adult.....

reply from: nancyu

http://www.robieharris.com/work_book-normal.html
This book looks pretty explicit to me.
I applaud this woman for doing what it takes to bring it to public attention. This is simply an act of civil disobedience and standing up for her beliefs. She hasn't burned the book or insisted it be taken out of print. I think all she has done is ask that it to be removed from the children's section of the public library. At least if it were in the adult section a parent could view it first and decide if they feel their child needs to read it.
Many of the comments below the Sun Journal article accuse JoAn of forcing her beliefs on others. What's to stop planned parenthood's cohorts from forcing their beliefs on others? Some of us don't feel our children need to be filled on every detail of sexuality at age ten. They should be taught self respect, and respect for others.
I would like to see a public library put in the children's section a book showing graphic abortion images, who do you suppose would be standing up and yelling then?
Edited to fix the link. (Apologies)

reply from: cracrat

Maybe Ben Dover and his colleagues should insert "sperm meets egg" soliloquys into their grot movies to get them past the censors.

reply from: BossMomma

Unless lukesmom really believes that sexual education materials for teens is 'kiddie porn' and I would not rule it out.
Lukes mom probably believes in the abstinance only form of sex ed instead of comprehensive sex ed that teaches about STD's, Teen pregnancy and other such vital info.

reply from: Cecilia

You need to familiarize yourself with 10 year old girls. They need this information.
The link did not work.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

This isn't kiddie porn. Kiddie porn has KIDS having SEX or performing sexual acts. This shows ADULTS having sex. This isn't even porn at all. Yes, there are naked people in it. So what? There are naked people everywhere! In Europe, it is perfectly acceptable for children up to the age of 10 to go to public swimming pools NAKED. Guess what? I read similar books as a child and I never had sex until I was 19. I didn't have sex as a teen, I wasn't sexually corrupted, and I wasn't turned into a homosexual. Shock upon shock, eh?
I remember the book I first was shown (by my parents! shock again!) that taught me where I came from.
http://www.pistilbooks.com/museum/museum02.html

It has extremely "lewd" pictures of all kinds of animals having sex, and naked human bodies, and even a man and a woman in a bed together! Oh noes!

reply from: Cecilia

Have you seen the book?
I'd be interested in knowing what the pictures are, exactly.
What is wrong with teaching 10 year olds about HIV/AIDS? Would you blink twice about teaching diabetes, or cancer? HIV/AIDS isn't solely an STI. Kids need to know about blood contaimination.

reply from: BossMomma

There's two squirrels getting it on most enthusiastically under a tree in my back yard, should I call the police for fear my son might be corrupted sexually? :-D

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There's two squirrels getting it on most enthusiastically under a tree in my back yard, should I call the police for fear my son might be corrupted sexually? :-D
Lol! You better; you never know what "ideas" he may get into his head!

reply from: BossMomma

There's two squirrels getting it on most enthusiastically under a tree in my back yard, should I call the police for fear my son might be corrupted sexually? :-D
Lol! You better; you never know what "ideas" he may get into his head!
Yeah, the nerve of those animals getting it on squirrely style in public!

reply from: Jameberlin

Have you seen the book?
I'd be interested in knowing what the pictures are, exactly.
What is wrong with teaching 10 year olds about HIV/AIDS? Would you blink twice about teaching diabetes, or cancer? HIV/AIDS isn't solely an STI. Kids need to know about blood contaimination.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, but i don't know that it's absolutely necessary.
You know, when i was in fifth grade they had some guy with AIDS come to our class and talk to us about how he got it through unprotected sex with a random partner.. and i remember them saying things like "you can still have sex, just make sure you use a condom" because, obviously, condoms ALWAYS work... But that's not the point... the thing i remember most was how cruel the kids in my class were to that man... I felt terrible for him. I think kids SHOULD be taught about disease and blood contamination, but when was the last time HIV/AIDS was taught as just a deadly disease that can be contracted through various means and not just sex and iv drug use? I think they should go so far as to tell the kids not to eat bush meat in Africa if they don't want to get AIDS, but who says that? And in a book about sex, how likely do you think it is they teach kids about all infectious disease they can contract through blood contact, and not just AIDS? I wonder if they cover children born with AIDS.. I wonder if the book covers the risk of multiple partners, too.. emotional and physical.
I wanted to see the pictures for myself too, I can't find any pictures from the book though, i just read reviews.
I don't care if a parent wants to use this book to teach their kids about sex, abortion, birth control, stds, etc... Although, personally i don't think i would have been ready to learn about all that stuff at ten. If my parents had tried to show me that book (with pictures, not just information) i would have felt violated... but i just happen to have unique circumstances.
My issue with the book is that it's out there as a PG rated learning tool, when if it were any other medium it would be deemed inappropriate for children of that age group. Anybody remember the TLC shows about sex that only aired late at night and came with hardcore disclaimers? Mmmmm... learning channel porn
I'm glad i have the ability to answer sex questions and talk to my kids without needing to give them a "how to" guide. If you want to use the book to teach your children everythig about all different type of sex... go for it!
I don't need it, personally.
The one good thing about this book is that it provides some accurate information about biology.. i know how some parents are so uncomfortable when it comes to describing natural biological tendancies to their children... so they might need this tool, i'm just glad it promotes parent's talking to their kids about it, instead of just putting their trust in sex ed classes in the public school system....even if i don't approve of it's PG rating.

reply from: speck

The only images I can find so far are:
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2005/11/17/fashion/17sex_CA1ready.html
and
http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm
It may not be in taste for some, when teaching their children about these things, and for others it works very well.
Up to personal taste of the parents IMO.

reply from: KaylieBee

Wooow, that's what all this drama is about?

reply from: yoda

You mean like PP's "Down There" video clips?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You mean like PP's "Down There" video clips?
I have no idea what you're talking about.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Pppft, lol, those are "lewd"? I see more boobies in an issue of National Geographic, and I've been reading that since I was capable of turning the pages!

reply from: lukesmom

Unless lukesmom really believes that sexual education materials for teens is 'kiddie porn' and I would not rule it out.
Lukes mom probably believes in the abstinance only form of sex ed instead of comprehensive sex ed that teaches about STD's, Teen pregnancy and other such vital info.
Sigh, true to form Bossy is making an ass out of herself ONCE AGAIN by making ASS umptions. She just won't or can't? learn. LOL

reply from: nancyu

I don't think sex is "dirty" and I'm sure JoAn doesn't either. But sex isn't for children. I don't happen to think they need information in such explicit detail at age ten. I know some parents are more liberal than I am, they can teach their children as they wish. They don't need to teach mine.

reply from: yoda

Here ya go...... especially for the "uninformed youth":
http://www.takecaredownthere.org/#/watch/find-the-sti/

BTW, be sure to watch them all....

reply from: nancyu

I strongly disagree. They do NOT NEED http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm information.

reply from: QueenJ

Hey! I HAVE AN IDEA! Why don't parents take some responsibility and MONITOR what their kids check out from the library? How hard is that? Don't let your kid check out books that you find objectionable or inappropriate? Seems much easier and effective than stealing, but what do I know? I'm just a baby killer.

reply from: Cecilia

I strongly disagree. They do NOT NEED http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm information.
There is no need to be ashamed of your body, or the functions of your body.
Many 10 year old girls get their periods. I was 11. I was kept in the dark by my Puritan tyrannical parents and was terrified that my pee my bloody. I thought I had cancer. I was sure I was dying, but we didn't discuss our 'dirty bathroom habits' so I didn't ask. What an awful time that was.
More and more younger girls these days are involving themselves in sexual matters. It is in their best interests to educate them on the functions of their bodies.
Since many prolifers harbor feelings that babies and birth and conception are phenomenal, spiritual matters why hide it?

reply from: nancyu

I strongly disagree. They do NOT NEED http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm information.
There is no need to be ashamed of your body, or the functions of your body.
Many 10 year old girls get their periods. I was 11. I was kept in the dark by my Puritan tyrannical parents and was terrified that my pee my bloody. I thought I had cancer. I was sure I was dying, but we didn't discuss our 'dirty bathroom habits' so I didn't ask. What an awful time that was.
More and more younger girls these days are involving themselves in sexual matters. It is in their best interests to educate them on the functions of their bodies.
Since many prolifers harbor feelings that babies and birth and conception are phenomenal, spiritual matters why hide it?
I don't have a problem with presenting scientific facts regarding how the body functions and how babies are made. Explicit photographs of sexual acts cross the line of decency. I wouldn't approve of seeing someone having sex in a grocery store for example. I also don't approve of seeing someone having sex in a public library. If my child witnessed such inadvertently, I might just put up a stink. I'm old fashioned that way.

reply from: yoda

The PP videos called "Take Care Down There", are aimed directly at young viewers:
http://www.takecaredownthere.org/#/watch/find-the-sti/

BTW, be sure to watch them all....

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Well from the first video, which has TEENAGERS in it, I'd say these videos are aimed at TEENAGERS, and I find them perfectly acceptable for young adults. Heck, those actually look like young college students. These videos are fine!
The way you phrased it, "young viewers", I was expecting something aimed at 5 year olds.
Haha!! These are great, they really are. I liked the guy getting a BJ one XD.
You'd be shocked to hear how many of these "excuses" I heard on eHealth!! People really are dumb and need to see these videos.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I strongly disagree. They do NOT NEED http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm information.
Like hell they don't. I never actually looked in a mirror at my own vulva (isn't that a great word? Sensual, soft... vulva...mmm) until after I'd been having sex! I think I was 21! But I'd been masturbating since I was 11, so I really should have had a better clue about what I was supposed to look like. I would have LOVED a book like that! The one I did have about puberty had one page with ladies drawn who had all kinds of funny looking boobs. Did anyone else read that book? I just remember looking at it and hoping my boobs never looked like splayed wide bananas!!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Oh no! That means a parent has to be a PARENT! We can't have that!

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't think sex is "dirty" and I'm sure JoAn doesn't either. But sex isn't for children. I don't happen to think they need information in such explicit detail at age ten. I know some parents are more liberal than I am, they can teach their children as they wish. They don't need to teach mine.
I learned this information when I was 5. I am not traumatized and I didn't have random sex when I reached puberty. You can teach about sex AND teach that it is ONLY for adults.

reply from: BossMomma

Pppft, lol, those are "lewd"? I see more boobies in an issue of National Geographic, and I've been reading that since I was capable of turning the pages!
As one who has attended Wiccan rituals sky clad, I see no shame in the human body or any of it's functions including sex. If a penis, breasts, and a vagina are shameful to christianity it is a wonder they reproduce at all for fear of being morally lewd.

reply from: BossMomma

Here ya go...... especially for the "uninformed youth":
http://www.takecaredownthere.org/#/watch/find-the-sti/
">http://www.takecaredownthere.o...h/find-the-sti/
BTW, be sure to watch them all....
LOL The horse penis virus, now that was funny.

reply from: KaylieBee

What exactly is wrong with this?

reply from: BossMomma

Pppft, lol, those are "lewd"? I see more boobies in an issue of National Geographic, and I've been reading that since I was capable of turning the pages!
As one who has attended Wiccan rituals sky clad, I see no shame in the human body or any of it's functions including sex. If a penis, breasts, and a vagina are shameful to christianity it is a wonder they reproduce at all for fear of being morally lewd.
Do you belong to a coven BossMomma?
If so, I am jealous. I'm finding it hard to find one of my own. Especially since I have yet to obtain a drivers license, so am somewhat restricted.
I recieved my religious education in three different covens from the age of 13, though I was not permitted to participate in sky clad rituals until I was 18 for legal reasons. It was very hard at first, my parents couldn't know, my step dad beat me enough as it was. However, I am a solitary practicing witch as of now, I felt the need to connect with the Goddess on a more one on one level.
Covenship is no easy thing, rules are strictly enforced and magicks balance is all important. But, in the end if you choose that path and do not waver it is so rewarding. Do you know the Wiccan Rede? The major and minor Sabbats? Those are a good start.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Here ya go...... especially for the "uninformed youth":
http://www.takecaredownthere.org/#/watch/find-the-sti/
">http://www.takecaredownthere.o...h/find-the-sti/
BTW, be sure to watch them all....
PlannedParenthood is really crude. They have no concept of modesty. It was amazing to watch so many perverted people before our eyes in these videos.

reply from: BossMomma

Here ya go...... especially for the "uninformed youth":
http://www.takecaredownthere.o...h/find-the-sti/
<br ">http://www.takecaredow...e.o.....sti/
BTW, be sure to watch them all....
PlannedParenthood is really crude. They have no concept of modesty. It was amazing to watch so many perverted people before our eyes in these videos.
Why does it have to meet your standard of modesty? Personally I'd rather my child know than dwell in ignorance and shame.

reply from: Cecilia

That's funny because that's what the book is about.

reply from: yoda

It's a question of values and standards. I think these videos are promoting the wrong values and lowering standards of decency.

reply from: mcgowan

as a christian i think a lot of sex education actually harms children instead of helping them - i don't know exactly what the agenda is of those who insist on foisting explicit material onto kids but there's probably something unwholesome about their motives.
congratulations to joan for making a stand.
and kudos to wmtw for conducting an interview which was handled respectfully. i live in the uk and i doubt that any mainstream broadcaster here would have given her the airtime to express herself and if she did briefly appear no doubt the presenter would have been falling over to offer sarcastic/hostile asides.
video may take a little while to load - 20 minute interview.
http://www.wmtw.com/video/14158198/index.html
-------------
some of the other material going into american schools is even more disturbing and disgusting IMHO.
http://www.wpaag.org/Books%20-%20Pornogrphic%20Sch.%20Library%20Pictures.htm
i recommend belmont house for sex education based on the Word of God
http://www.belmonthouse.co.uk
something similar to the karkos case is happening in the uk with a family planning group wishing to proselytize.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1057397/Now-schools-introduce-sex-guide-year-olds.html

reply from: cracrat

In what way do you think that preparing kids for the adult experiences they will come into contact with during their teenager to adult transition is harmful? Care to speculate about the unwholesome nature of the motives behind it?

reply from: yoda

"Preparing" is one thing, "encouraging" at too early an age is another.

reply from: cracrat

"Preparing" is one thing, "encouraging" at too early an age is another.
So where, in your opinion, is the line between educating and encouraging? How much education should be mandatory, and how much should parents be able to opt out of?

reply from: CharlesD

Like this one?
https://http://i1.treknature.com/photos/5697/booby.jpg

reply from: yoda

The should be able to opt out of all of it, IMO. Right or wrong, parents are responsible for raising their children, not the state.
The actual depiction of sexual acts crosses the line, IMO. That is nothing less than a tacit approval of casual sex for children.

reply from: cracrat

I couldn't teach kids about the cardio-vascular system without showing them pictures of a heart and lungs, how can you expect to teach them about sex without showing them pictures of the act itself? I don't mean bootleg grot videos designed only to arouse, but pictures designed to educate. Hell, make it pictures of old people with middle-aged spread, wrinkly arses and greying pubes having sex and I imagine you'd put the average 14 year old off it for at least a decade.

reply from: yoda

Kids don't need to see videos of sex acts to understand what is being said. They know what you're talking about without the visual aids.
Showing them the actual act amounts to TACIT APPROVAL, and therefore encouragement to them to HAVE CASUAL SEX.
Did I not make that clear in the previous post?

reply from: scopia1982

OMG! is this for real? I can understand showing them diagrams of the male and female reproductive system. But this is just down right obscene. Im not a prude by any means, but I would opt my son out if this is the crap they are teaching them now days. I am all for sex education, sadly you have alot of parents that dont want to do their job and talk to their kids about sex. But this is way too much.

reply from: cracrat

Tell someone how to do something and they'll remember 10%. Show them, they'll remember 40%. Do it with them and they'll remember 70%. Clearly with regards to sex-ed, the last one is out of the question, but bringing in visual aids, outside speakers, activities (quizzes and stuff, not classroom masturbation sessions) and so on will make more of the message stick that much better with a larger number of kids which is, after all, the whole point. I'm not sure where you get this idea that showing someone something is tantamount to encouraging them to go and do it, but you're just plain wrong. Perhaps it's just been a bit too long since you were a teenager for you to remember how they respond.

reply from: yoda

No, the problem is that I DO remember how it felt to be a teenager.
We'll just have to agree to disagree about the "visual aid" angle.... I think that teens are very, very "suggestible" and take meaning from little things like that.
To the average teen, those PP videos are simply soft porn, IMO.

reply from: sweet

i always thought it was the parents' responsibility to teach sex ed. these schools are really creepy these days.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

You thought wrong. Many parents are too scared to talk to their children, so you have situations where 9 year old girls freak out because they are told by a boy that when he kissed her he put a baby in her tummy. This poor girl was silently distraught for a WEEK thinking she was pregnant! She finally told her mom, thank goodness.

reply from: yoda

Morally, that is correct. No parents are perfect, but as a general rule they are much more likely to be good teachers than the government.
That's the oddest thing, proaborts scream about keeping the government out of people's lives, and yet they demand that the government intrude into the parental responsibility to educate their kids on the facts of life.
Kinda schizophrenic, ya know?

reply from: KaylieBee

Ahahahaha. Yoda, baby, most teens today have been capable of finding and viewing hardcore porn on the Internet since they were 11, or even younger. I honestly don't think anyone could consider this porn.

reply from: mcgowan

there are plenty of children who do NOT seek out or watch porn.
most christian parents make sure that any kind of porn is NOT part of their children's surfing menu.
it's a vile, exploitative industry IMO - for the damaging effect on those involved in producing it and for impressionable watching minds who get warped by it.
---------
as for the person who asked - In what way do you think that preparing kids for the adult experiences they will come into contact with during their teenager to adult transition is harmful? Care to speculate about the unwholesome nature of the motives behind it?
i don't regard the books/videos we're discussing as good preparation.
it harms children by demolishing respect for their own God-created bodies and diminishes respect for other people - treating them as sexual objects.
re the unwholesome motives - i assume it's the perps' lack of sexual continence which leads them to lure others into a sodom and gomorrah way of life.
i wouldn't mind so much if schools were outstandingly successful in other areas of education.
here in the uk the standard of state education is dire. many children leave school sub-literate and innumerate. yet even though teachers can't even implant the basics, they still have plenty of time to waste on sex education and so forth.
moreover, it's not working.
the rate of teen pregnancies is increasing - the divorce rate is staggeringly high, addiction to alcohol and illicit drugs is wideapread, crime is soaring.
if sex is the answer to everything, then why ,in our notriously lax societies are mental illnesses and neuoroses so common?

reply from: yoda

I do, and I think teenage boys will also.

reply from: yoda

I agree, mcgowan, I agree.

reply from: BossMomma

I agree, parents should be the first to teach their children about sex. My six year old sat and watched live births with me on the health channel while I calmly explained the process, when he asked how the baby gets inside the mommy I then explained the male and female genetalia, how they differ and, the process of intercourse that leads to insemination. Unfortunantly sex is still a squeamish subject for many parents. Sex needs to be viewed as what it is, not some dirty little secret for adult ears only.

reply from: scopia1982

I intend to opt my son out of the school sex ed courses simply because I dont want the state doing my job for me. I intend to teach my son about sex when he is old enough to ask questions and able to comprehend the answers. Most of all I am going to teach him self control. Thats something most young people lack today, if the possessed it maybe 1 in 4 teen girls wouldnt have an STD, the high teen pregnancy rates, not to mention the emotional effects it can have on one so young.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I was six when I asked. How old is your son?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I agree, parents should be the first to teach their children about sex. My six year old sat and watched live births with me on the health channel while I calmly explained the process, when he asked how the baby gets inside the mommy I then explained the male and female genetalia, how they differ and, the process of intercourse that leads to insemination. Unfortunantly sex is still a squeamish subject for many parents. Sex needs to be viewed as what it is, not some dirty little secret for adult ears only.
That's a very mature way to approach it.

reply from: scopia1982

He is 5 and asked the baby question I answered him in plain simple terms how it gets in there, where it grows and comes out. I have also explained to him the difference between boys and girls. I just didnt use overcomplicated terminolgy. I checked out a book from the library to show him a baby inutero at various stages of development. I just believe for now to keep it short and simple. THere are so many other aspects of human sexualty I think is too much for a 5 yr old. I think in the next 3-4 yrs he will ask more in depth question and will answer them as honestly as I can. If I cant I will tell him I will find out the correct answer and when I find out tell him.

reply from: BossMomma

I agree, parents should be the first to teach their children about sex. My six year old sat and watched live births with me on the health channel while I calmly explained the process, when he asked how the baby gets inside the mommy I then explained the male and female genetalia, how they differ and, the process of intercourse that leads to insemination. Unfortunantly sex is still a squeamish subject for many parents. Sex needs to be viewed as what it is, not some dirty little secret for adult ears only.
That's a very mature way to approach it.
Thank you.

reply from: mcgowan

first kiss at the altar?
there's a program this thursday on uk tv -
the virgin daughters
- relating to how and when sexuality should be expressed.
though i don't understand why the emphasis is always placed on girls.
IMO chastity is equally important for boys!
http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/cutting_edge/virgin_daughters/virgin_daughters1.html
Galatians 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

reply from: ProInformed

Don't be silly.
People fail to return library books, and pay the library the cost of the book all the time. Don't pretend you've never heard of that happening before. One of my children once had an overdue book that we had misplaced and we were just charged the cost of the book. (We were packing to move and found the book when we unpacked.)
ALSO books that have been donated to libraries by pro-lifers (IF the library doesn't ban them outright) FREQUENTLY are vandalized, destroyed, or 'lost' by pro-aborts. But the pro-aborts who do that are never dragged into court. Libraries commonly keep public information files on issues such as abortion for students and citizens to refer to. I know from personal experience, with libraries in several states (moved and traveled a lot because of both husband's career and my career), that the brochures that pro-lifers donate to those folders have to be donated again month after month because pro-aborts routinely remove the pro-life info.
This is CLEARLY an example of heavy handed pro-abort harrassment of a pro-lifer and an overly harsh penalty that pro-aborts are not subjected to when they do the same thing. I have never heard a single pro-abort chastise a fellow pro-abort for doing such things, let alone defending the use of heavy-handed legal punishment against them.
Your example of somebody stealing a tv as supposedly being analogous is pathetically dishonest and weak IMHO. BECAUSE it is SO COMMON for library patrons to misplace (and yes - to sometimes just choose to not return) books, there is a policy for handling such situations. The policy is to simply charge the library patron the cost of the book. There is no such policy in place for somebody entering a private dwelling and taking a tv, and then just paying the replacement fee.
This is just another example of pro-aborts harassing a pro-lifer AND an example of pro-aborts pretending their fellow pro-aborts aren't doing anything wrong in doing so.

reply from: Cecilia

Don't be silly.
People fail to return library books, and pay the library the cost of the book all the time. Don't pretend you've never heard of that happening before. One of my children once had an overdue book that we had misplaced and we were just charged the cost of the book. (We were packing to move and found the book when we unpacked.)
ALSO books that have been donated to libraries by pro-lifers (IF the library doesn't ban them outright) FREQUENTLY are vandalized, destroyed, or 'lost' by pro-aborts. But the pro-aborts who do that are never dragged into court. Libraries commonly keep public information files on issues such as abortion for students and citizens to refer to. I know from personal experience, with libraries in several states (moved and traveled a lot because of both husband's career and my career), that the brochures that pro-lifers donate to those folders have to be donated again month after month because pro-aborts routinely remove the pro-life info.
This is CLEARLY an example of heavy handed pro-abort harrassment of a pro-lifer and an overly harsh penalty that pro-aborts are not subjected to when they do the same thing. I have never heard a single pro-abort chastise a fellow pro-abort for doing such things, let alone defending the use of heavy-handed legal punishment against them.
Your example of something stealing a tv as supposedly being analogous is pathetically dishonest and weak IMHO. BECAUSE it is SO COMMON for library patrons to misplace (and yes - to sometimes just choose to not return) books, there is a policy for handling such situations. The policy is to simply charge the library patron the cost of the book. There is no such policy in place for somebody entering a private dwelling and taking a tv, and then just paying the replacement fee.
This is just another example of pro-aborts harassing a pro-lifer AND an example of pro-aborts pretending their fellow pro-aborts aren't doing anything wrong in doing so.
Intent. She didn't "misplace" the book. She consciously and willfully stole it.
I think theft is wrong. Apparently you do not.

reply from: ProInformed

The same pro-abort hypocrites who complain about censorship when it comes to trying to protect children from pornography in the children's section of a public library don't say a thing when their fellow pro-aborts destroy or remove pro-life books that are donated to the adult section of public libraries.

reply from: ProInformed

No I did not say theft was OK. Stop lying.
I acknowledged the FACT that the failure to return libraries books is something that does happen so commonly that there is a procedure in place for dealing with it. That procedure is to charge the patron for the cost of the book. The same applies to failure to return rented videos, DVDs and video games. You are dishonesly pretending that you've never heard of such a procedure and that the harsh punishment this grandmother is being threatened with is nothing unusual.
You are the one falsely pretending that either nobody else besides this grandma has ever intentionally kept a library book or that when that happens they are normally threatened with legal action instead of just being charged for the book.
Can you link to a single post where you have chastised (let alone defended legal action being taken against them) when a fellow choicist vandalises or steals pro-life materials in an effort to censor?
Would you be in favor of pro-aborts being charged and punished the same as that grandmother when they steal and destroy pro-life library books, instead of THEM merely being charged the replacement fee? This case will set precedence that will apply to pro-aborts too you know. Pro-aborts were so aggressively stealing and destroying the pro-life books that were donated to the public library I went to when I first started questioning the abortion industry that the local pro-life group had to buy and donate new ones on a regular basis. The librarian pretended to believe that those pro-aborts, the same ones who accidently lost the last set of pro-life books they checked out, were just very forgetful and misplaced the books... And it was the pro-life group who bought the replacement books, if the pro-abort vandals/thiefs were even charged the replacement fee, the library wasn't spending it on purchasing the replacement pro-life books.
UNTIL you actively support punishment for pro-aborts who steal and destroy pro-life library books you can just shush with your pretended opposition to such things.

reply from: ProInformed

http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa120507a.htm

Not at all surprised that somebody who views innocent babies' bodies as mere 'tissue' would do this.

reply from: KaylieBee

The same pro-abort hypocrites who complain about censorship when it comes to trying to protect children from pornography in the children's section of a public library don't say a thing when their fellow pro-aborts destroy or remove pro-life books that are donated to the adult section of public libraries.
Destroying books is wrong. =( Who does that?

reply from: Cecilia

No I did not say theft was OK. Stop lying.
I acknowledged the FACT that the failure to return libraries books is something that does happen so commonly that there is a procedure in place for dealing with it. That procedure is to charge the patron for the cost of the book. The same applies to failure to return rented videos, DVDs and video games. You are dishonesly pretending that you've never heard of such a procedure and that the harsh punishment this grandmother is being threatened with is nothing unusual.
You are the one falsely pretending that either nobody else besides this grandma has ever intentionally kept a library book or that when that happens they are normally threatened with legal action instead of just being charged for the book.
Can you link to a single post where you have chastised (let alone defended legal action being taken against them) when a fellow choicist vandalises or steals pro-life materials in an effort to censor?
Would you be in favor of pro-aborts being charged and punished the same as that grandmother when they steal and destroy pro-life library books, instead of THEM merely being charged the replacement fee? This case will set precedence that will apply to pro-aborts too you know. Pro-aborts were so aggressively stealing and destroying the pro-life books that were donated to the public library I went to when I first started questioning the abortion industry that the local pro-life group had to buy and donate new ones on a regular basis. The librarian pretended to believe that those pro-aborts, the same ones who accidently lost the last set of pro-life books they checked out, were just very forgetful and misplaced the books... And it was the pro-life group who bought the replacement books, if the pro-abort vandals/thiefs were even charged the replacement fee, the library wasn't spending it on purchasing the replacement pro-life books.
UNTIL you actively support punishment for pro-aborts who steal and destroy pro-life library books you can just shush with your pretended opposition to such things.
Gracious. She stole the book. You went on to compare this situation to instances of "forgotton" library books, ignoring the intent, and supporting the theft because it fits with your political views. When pointed out, you try to distract and derail this by a very unsubstantiated argument - 'you don't support punishment for proaborts who steal so shush' - which you have pulled out of your behind.
Of course I believe people who steal library books should be punished; I do not care what political affiliation they belong with. Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view.

reply from: mcgowan

----------
i think people who go in for child pornography must be mentally ill in some way.
it's a horrible, horrible crime.
moreover, judging by the two court cases, the doc might turn out to be incompetent as well as morally flawed.

reply from: ProInformed

The same pro-abort hypocrites who complain about censorship when it comes to trying to protect children from pornography in the children's section of a public library don't say a thing when their fellow pro-aborts destroy or remove pro-life books that are donated to the adult section of public libraries.
Destroying books is wrong. =( Who does that?
Pro-aborts do it all the time in an attempt to censor.
Go to your local library and make a listing of the pro-life books they have.
Then go back in every months to see how many of those pro-life books are still there. You will most likely find that some or several of them have been 'lost' (stolen) or vandalised. And IF they are replaced it will most likely be because the same pro-life groups that donated them in the first place paid to have them replaced (not the pro-abort vandals/thiefs). Oh and let us know if you EVER hear of any of those pro-abort vandals/thiefs being prosecuted for their deeds...
Libraries written by Margaret Sanger had to be put into the archival sections of some libraries because they were so much at risk for being destroyed by those who wanted to cover up the eugenic, racist agenda of PP (pro-aborts).
And if you've ever attended a pro-life event you would surely see angry, violent pro-aborts vandalizing pro-life signs and brochures. Pro-life fliers are also routinely removed from campus and community bulletin boards and thrown away by pro-aborts. So don't even bother to pretend that surely no pro-abort would use similar censorship tactics when it comes to pro-life books.
Show us a link to where YOU have posted at a pro-abort site stating that pro-aborts should not destroy pro-life fliers, brochures, and books.
Otherwise your pretense of being opposed to that very common pro-abort tactic is just a sham.

reply from: ProInformed

you try to distract and derail this by a very unsubstantiated argument - 'you don't support punishment for proaborts who steal so shush' - which you have pulled out of your behind.
Of course I believe people who steal library books should be punished; I do not care what political affiliation they belong with. Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view.
Prove what you claim.
Post this statement you made on a pro-abortion message board:
"Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view."
Then defend that statement against the inevitable pro-abort attacks that will follow and post the link here.
BTW, what punishment do you think should apply to pro-aborts who vandalize and steal pro-life fliers and signs? Unless you provide proof that you chastise your fellow pro-aborts for committing such cowardly and illegal acts of censorship you have zero credibility here. Post about that at a pro-abort message board and provide us with the link to that message too.

reply from: sk1bianca

i think it's every parent's right to protect their children from what they consider to be false information (homosexuality being portrayed as "normal", for example). explaining where babies come from is one thing, encouraging masturbation and homosexuality is another.
i personally think sex ed should be done by parents, not by some organization which makes profit from BC and abortion. doesn't anybody realize that PP actually makes money by inciting kids to start their sexual life as early as possible? is it "perfectly normal" to discuss these subjects with kids younger than 10?

reply from: ProInformed

I agree, parents should be the first to teach their children about sex. My six year old sat and watched live births with me on the health channel while I calmly explained the process, when he asked how the baby gets inside the mommy I then explained the male and female genetalia, how they differ and, the process of intercourse that leads to insemination. Unfortunantly sex is still a squeamish subject for many parents. Sex needs to be viewed as what it is, not some dirty little secret for adult ears only.
I also taught my own children sex-ed.
It has been included in their homeschool curriculum all along as part of their Science, Health and Fitness, Living Skills, Current Events (related to news about STD's, new contraceptive drugs/devices, and the ongoing abortion controversy), and Religion and Philosophy studies.
In addition to the methods you used I also included info from the International Childbirth Education Association, the C-Section Prevention Movement, the info inserts that come with various birth control drugs and devices, info about STD's, medically referenced info about fetal development, plus the different types of abortion - how they're done and what side effects they have for the mother (using info from both pro-life and pro-abortion sources).
By the time they were teenagers they already knew more than most adults know.
Also contrary to the common misperception most of their homeschooled Christian friends know a lot more about sex-ed than their public schooled friends who attended government school sex-ed classes. Most of their friends who attended institutionalized education are sexually active while most of their homeschooled Christian friends plan to wait until marriage to have sex; instead of applying peer pressure on each other to have sex, they voluntarily act as accountability partners to each other in abstaining. Their public schooled friends only 'know' more about sex in the same way that porn industry employees probably 'know' more about sex than your typical married couple - they don't really know more facts - they just have more experience with HAVING sex. The public schooled kids know more about sexual positions but are relatively ignorant about birth control failure rates and side effects, childbirth options, prenatal testing, C-section prevention, how abortions are done, the medical risk to the mother from abortion, etc.
I am not opposed to sex-ed, but I am opposed to not giving the students ALL the facts so they can be well-informed and make intelligent decisions. IMHO too much is censored from sex-ed classes because abortion industry lobbyists are more concerned with protecting their profits than with protecting children. Anyone who pretends that sex-ed materials provided to public schools BY the abortion industry are accurate and neutral is either an idiot or a liar.

reply from: Cecilia

you try to distract and derail this by a very unsubstantiated argument - 'you don't support punishment for proaborts who steal so shush' - which you have pulled out of your behind.
Of course I believe people who steal library books should be punished; I do not care what political affiliation they belong with. Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view.
Prove what you claim.
Post this statement you made on a pro-abortion message board:
"Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view."
Then defend that statement against the inevitable pro-abort attacks that will follow and post the link here.
BTW, what punishment do you think should apply to pro-aborts who vandalize and steal pro-life fliers and signs? Unless you provide proof that you chastise your fellow pro-aborts for committing such cowardly and illegal acts of censorship you have zero credibility here. Post about that at a pro-abort message board and provide us with the link to that message too.
Classic red herring fallacy.
Back on topic, you support theft. Or, it theft only "cowardly and illegal" if you disagree with the politics?

reply from: sk1bianca

if a guy wanted to bring drugs or a gun in a school and you take it away from him so kids won't get hurt, is that "supporting theft"?

reply from: cracrat

Of course not. But there's a world of difference between protected kids from drugs and guns and protecting them from information. Particularly when that impetus to protect them from information in based upon some cloud cuckoo notion that if you don't teach your kids about sex then they won't have sexual thoughts later in life, they won't be tempted or pressured into trying stuff by their peers and they'll somehow be safe from the myriad potential dangers associated with sex.

reply from: sk1bianca

i never said children shouldn't be taught about sex. but... heck... at the age of 10?!?!?!? why? so they can try it as soon as possible? "it's normal, it's fun, everybody's doing it", all you need is "protection"... that's about the same crap you get from "friends" who "did it"...
many kids don't even know what masturbation is. they take the book, see how it's done, learn it's "perfectly normal" and then go home and try it. now... is it really "normal" for a 10 year old kid to do that? do they even tell them it can cause addiction and problems in future sexual activity?

reply from: nancyu

No I did not say theft was OK. Stop lying.
I acknowledged the FACT that the failure to return libraries books is something that does happen so commonly that there is a procedure in place for dealing with it. That procedure is to charge the patron for the cost of the book. The same applies to failure to return rented videos, DVDs and video games. You are dishonesly pretending that you've never heard of such a procedure and that the harsh punishment this grandmother is being threatened with is nothing unusual.
You are the one falsely pretending that either nobody else besides this grandma has ever intentionally kept a library book or that when that happens they are normally threatened with legal action instead of just being charged for the book.
Can you link to a single post where you have chastised (let alone defended legal action being taken against them) when a fellow choicist vandalises or steals pro-life materials in an effort to censor?
Would you be in favor of pro-aborts being charged and punished the same as that grandmother when they steal and destroy pro-life library books, instead of THEM merely being charged the replacement fee? This case will set precedence that will apply to pro-aborts too you know. Pro-aborts were so aggressively stealing and destroying the pro-life books that were donated to the public library I went to when I first started questioning the abortion industry that the local pro-life group had to buy and donate new ones on a regular basis. The librarian pretended to believe that those pro-aborts, the same ones who accidently lost the last set of pro-life books they checked out, were just very forgetful and misplaced the books... And it was the pro-life group who bought the replacement books, if the pro-abort vandals/thiefs were even charged the replacement fee, the library wasn't spending it on purchasing the replacement pro-life books.
UNTIL you actively support punishment for pro-aborts who steal and destroy pro-life library books you can just shush with your pretended opposition to such things.
Gracious. She stole the book. You went on to compare this situation to instances of "forgotton" library books, ignoring the intent, and supporting the theft because it fits with your political views. When pointed out, you try to distract and derail this by a very unsubstantiated argument - 'you don't support punishment for proaborts who steal so shush' - which you have pulled out of your behind.
Of course I believe people who steal library books should be punished; I do not care what political affiliation they belong with. Antiabortion books should be on the shelf so people can learn about that point of view.
^^^a fine example of a thick headed pro abort who can't see when her argument has been defeated.
"Stealing is wrong" No kidding, as if that is even the point! And this is not a case of political censorship (as it is when anti abortion material is removed). This is a case of anti pornography. Quit playing dumb. Or quit being dumb (whichever the case may be.

reply from: cracrat

Would it be better to wait until they're 16? By which time 4% of them will be pregnant, so probably it might be a little late for them. But at least the rest of them will be "ready" for the message.
If such education is started at an early age, children grow up realising that sex is not a dirty little taboo to be hidden behind closed doors, but a perfectly natural part of the human condition that can be spoken about in the open with questions and fears raised in a mature, non-judgemental atmosphere where an appropriate adult can answer them. I'm not suggesting for a moment that small children should be shown grot movies or given graphic details on cunnilingus and fellatio techniques, but introduced to the topic at an early age with material appropriate for their level of maturity. The result would be by the time they get to 12 or 13 y/o, they feel comfortable talking and learning about it and the majority of sex-ed lesson are actually spent conveying risk-reducing information rather than silly giggles because there're a pair of boobies on the video.
You weren't about to tell me that masturbation isn't natural were you? It is in fact pretty much the only source of pleasure I can think of that is completely harmless in both the short and long term. Or are you one of the "It makes you blind" brigade?

reply from: mcgowan

---------------
you are right.there was a programme on radio 4 last night about God : and a guest participant - terry sanderson - was from the national secular society.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/moralmaze
what the programme didn't mention is that he's also a homosexual propagandist who believes children should be encouraged to explore any homosexual orientation they might think they have [google his name for details].
unfortunately there also now some christians who want to spread the same dangerous message.
in regards to masturbation - it can definitely lead to problems in adolescence and adult life because of the lust involved.
it stimulates sexual desire which isn't helpful if parents are trying to get their children to commit to abstinence.
OK - sometimes it happens - but it definitely shouldn''t be encouraged or revelled in.
whether it's always healthy to act on "natural urges" is moot. children won't go to hell because they practise self-abuse but it's not healthy IMO (physically, mentally or spiritually).
-----------
abortion rates are rising in the uk. there was a programme about it on the radio.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/casenotes.shtml

reply from: sk1bianca

thank you, mcgowan.
i got all the information i needed about sex from my mom, who is also a doctor. and some of the stuff was very different from what i heard in "sex-ed" classes at school. i chose to believe my mom and i don't regret it.
i think no organization should have the right to interfere with the education given by parents.

reply from: mcgowan

that's handy - having a mom who's a doc.
unfortunately many doctors are now complicit with immorality in a way that would rarely have been seen in days gone past.
medical science is a truly wonderful thing but without a strong sense of morality it can spell danger (e.g. the euthanasia/abortion/birth control debates].

reply from: scopia1982

That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read!

LMAO!! I agree with you xena So heres a Guiness on me.

reply from: scopia1982

That is one of the stupidest things I've ever read!

LMAO!! I agree with you xena So heres a Guiness on me.
Yum!
Good Irish beer!! Or would you prefer Irish Whiskey

reply from: cracrat

Oh you poor dear, a taste for the black stuff and living in NZ. It doesn't even make it across the Irish Sea without tasting a little wierd, I can't imagine what sending it half way round the world would do to it.

reply from: scopia1982

I am American of Irish descent and am a big fan of their drinks. I will buy a whole round of guiness on St. Paddys day!!!


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