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Too many children?? Oops, the baby's dead!

Pastor "forgets" about baby in van

by: RiverMoonLady

If you can't handle 'em, don't have 'em.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26271157/
">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26271157/
A local assistant pastor came home Sunday and remembered to get 3 of his 4 kids out of his van after church. In the "hustle and bustle" of gathering children and posessions, he "forgot" his 15-month-old daughter sleeping in a car seat.
Hours later, he "remembered" where his child was after an older child told him the baby was not in bed. The baby was dead in the van.
I believe negligence charges, at the very least, should be filed.

reply from: KaylieBee

Just the other day I read a story about a three year old girl who chocked herself to death in a electric window while he uncle 'just ran into the store to grab something'.
T_T

reply from: sweet

i don't think it's logical or fair to use this as an excuse for ABORTION! should they have killed the child in the WOMB because the child "might die in an ACCIDENT one day?"
these parents should be comforted and prayed for and given some CREDIT...they let their child BE BORN in the first place! should mother's kill their children before they are born to prevent the likelihood(sp) of accidents?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

i don't think it's logical or fair to use this as an excuse for ABORTION! should they have killed the child in the WOMB because the child "might die in an ACCIDENT one day?"
these parents should be comforted and prayed for and given some CREDIT...they let their child BE BORN in the first place! should mother's kill their children before they are born to prevent the likelihood(sp) of accidents?
Dearie, this post is about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and CARING FOR THE CHILDREN YOU CHOSE TO HAVE - not about abortion per se.
Anyone who "forgets" where their barely-toddler-aged baby is for SEVERAL HOURS shouldn't have children. Remember, this father TOLD his wife that HE would bring the baby into the house. BOTH parents forgot about their baby until one of their OTHER children noticed that the baby was missing.
Can you imagine the uproar if this had happened to an unmarried minority couple living in the projects who did it after a night of drinking??? The fact that it was a nice, white couple from a "good" area - and that Dad is a pastor - should have no bearing whatsoever.
I hope that charges of child endangerment and more are filed, including involuntary manslaughter. You want vengeance for aborted babies? Then let's have a crackdown on preoccupied parents who "forget" they have a fourth child.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It seems more and more these days that "forgotten child" cases are being leniently judged, and I feel they shouldn't be. I know if I ever did that to my child I would want the death penalty or at least jail for life. The guilt would be utterly crushing.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, unless the guy's a mental case. Other than that, there is no defense. Seems like there are a lot of child murder cases lately where the perp is getting of very lightly, by claiming mental impairment or some such thing.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

A woman in my area was zonked out on meth for a day and a half. When she came too she discovered her baby was dead. She was sentenced to probation. During probation she was driving legally drunk. The probation officer recommended that her probation be revoked and that she serve her sentence. The judge disagreed and allowed her to continue on probation.
Man's government apparently believes there should be no penalty for neglience that results in another person's death. Heck, she can drive on the road and kill a whole family in a drunk drive crash if she wants.

reply from: galen

__________________
yep...
but on a brighter note... there are all sorts of safety reminders you can buy to help you remember you kids......

reply from: KaylieBee

I don't understand how anyone could just forget their own baby.

reply from: 4given

Nor do I. This isn't about having too many children- I believe this horrible event was due to expecting that the other children or spouse had acconted for that child. Either way, it is incredibly sad. May God bless this family with healing, comfort and strength. In Jesus Name.

reply from: 4given

What does being an assistant pastor have to do with this tragic event?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

__________________
yep...
but on a brighter note... there are all sorts of safety reminders you can buy to help you remember you kids......
Isn't it sad we need safety reminders to remember the most precious thing in our lives? If you choose to raise a child, that is your life in my opinion.

reply from: carolemarie

I am forever looking into cars now to see if someone accidently left their child in the car....how hard is it to look and make sure everyone is out of the car!!!
I feel terrible for the parents, how horrible to live with this....

reply from: nancyu

I thought it was the pro lifers being accused of negativity. You imply here that people shouldn't have children if they think they might screw up some day.
No one can say in advance what parenthood will be like for anyone. You seem to be trying to frighten or guilt women out of having children who might make perfectly good parents.
Parenthood can be a frightening prospect if you try to foresee the future and imagine everything that can go wrong. If you're looking toward the ditch while your driving, you might end up there. Rather than worrying about all that can go wrong, I'd rather look forward to a happy future with my children. Makes for a better today, and better memories, too.

reply from: lukesmom

Talk about discrimination! What does having too many children or being a pastor have to do with anything here? I have read stories of parents with ONE child putting them, already in the carseat, on top of the car, and driving away, forgetting to actually put them in the car. I have read stories of parents of ONE child forgetting them in the car. I have read stories of parents with ONE child intentionally leaving them in the car in the heat or cold. This can happen to ANYONE regardless of race, age and size of family. You are a cold person to judge a grieving father like this but then again it is to be expected as you are a proabort.

reply from: lukesmom

i don't think it's logical or fair to use this as an excuse for ABORTION! should they have killed the child in the WOMB because the child "might die in an ACCIDENT one day?"
these parents should be comforted and prayed for and given some CREDIT...they let their child BE BORN in the first place! should mother's kill their children before they are born to prevent the likelihood(sp) of accidents?
Dearie, this post is about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and CARING FOR THE CHILDREN YOU CHOSE TO HAVE - not about abortion per se.
Anyone who "forgets" where their barely-toddler-aged baby is for SEVERAL HOURS shouldn't have children. Remember, this father TOLD his wife that HE would bring the baby into the house. BOTH parents forgot about their baby until one of their OTHER children noticed that the baby was missing.
Can you imagine the uproar if this had happened to an unmarried minority couple living in the projects who did it after a night of drinking??? The fact that it was a nice, white couple from a "good" area - and that Dad is a pastor - should have no bearing whatsoever.
I hope that charges of child endangerment and more are filed, including involuntary manslaughter. You want vengeance for aborted babies? Then let's have a crackdown on preoccupied parents who "forget" they have a fourth child.
Oh enlightened smarmy one, please answer this. You are so quick to judge the father here who has lost his child because of unintentional negligence, but what about his wife, the mother of this child? She obviously CHOSE to have this child, so, by your own previous posts, you state 1. no one should have a child they can't care for (how you can determain how good a parent will be before the child is born is beyond me) and 2. prochoicers support not only the womans choice to abort but also the womans choice to continue her pregnancy and give birth. Therefore you are saying you support a woman having as many children as she chooses to have but then you are trying to restrict this by saying not too many children. Hey, how many are too many anyway, in your esteemed opinion?

reply from: lukesmom

Another question: I have 4 kids. All have been, in the past year, diagnosed with a heart disease the drs can't give a name to. We really don't know a prognosis for any of them. If I became pregnant now, should I abort because 1. I might have too many kids already, 2. this child might have the same problem his sibs have which insures an uncertain future and hey might have anencephaly like his brother, 3. the economic state is very uncertain so therefore we might have problems providing for him?
Your wisdom Oh Mighty RM?

reply from: lukesmom

Didn't realize I asked you but thank you for your "opinion" anyway.
BTW, I should add, this was a hypothetical question as I would never concsent to have one of my children, born or unborn, killed for any reason.

reply from: BossMomma

Nor do I. This isn't about having too many children- I believe this horrible event was due to expecting that the other children or spouse had acconted for that child. Either way, it is incredibly sad. May God bless this family with healing, comfort and strength. In Jesus Name.
May god bless them with a vasectomy and a tubal and a better memory. Too many babies and toddlers are dying locked in cars these days and can one even imagine the kind of death they go through? Suffocating in a hot car? If someone did that to a dog they'd be charged with animal cruelty, where is the justice for these neglected kids?

reply from: lukesmom

Right, can you imagine the pain and suffering of an unborn child being torn apart or forced into birth before it's lungs are ready causing it to struggle to breathe or having a sissors pushed into the back of your head and your brains sucked out? Yup, vasectomy and a tubal sounds really good. Glad to hear you so called pro choicers are so perfect you never unintentionally cause your child's death or suffering. Beware of what you are soooo sure of cause it very well could happen to the best of us.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The scissors is from partial birth abortion which is illegal and has been illegal for a long time. So that comment is irrelevant. Secondly, late-term abortions comprise less than 1% of all abortions, so they are doubly irrelevant. Thirdly, during the MAJORITY of abortions before the weeks of 12, the unborn cannot feel pain, so it is not suffering.

reply from: lukesmom

Oh right, I forgot, for you only the MAJORITY should be discussed because the MINORITY don't count. How do you know before the 12th week the unborn can't feel pain. Do you have a memory of that time? In actuality none of us knows for sure so stop acting the expert on something no one actually knows for sure.
BTW, I will fight for the MINORITY as well as the MAJORITY. You also evaded the questions and the whole point of my post.

reply from: 4given

Nor do I. This isn't about having too many children- I believe this horrible event was due to expecting that the other children or spouse had accounted for that child. Either way, it is incredibly sad. May God bless this family with healing, comfort and strength. In Jesus Name.
May god bless them with a vasectomy and a tubal and a better memory. Too many babies and toddlers are dying locked in cars these days and can one even imagine the kind of death they go through? Suffocating in a hot car? If someone did that to a dog they'd be charged with animal cruelty, where is the justice for these neglected kids?
Either surgery won't bring their baby back. Yeah. The ASPCA was established before the foster care system was. Where is the justice for the mutilated, poisoned or vacuumed being? Do you only question justice for the wanted or birthed?

reply from: 4given

*yawn*
So the pain of another being- by the hand of another bores you? Pity on you and your womb.

reply from: yoda

No, not really. The RECENTLY passed partial birth abortion ban has so many loopholes in it, that not a single PBA can be prohibited by it.

reply from: lukesmom

You're welcome.
Since I can read English, I was aware that the word "might" indicates a hypothetical. That's why I gave a hypothetical response.
Now we're hypothetically even.

reply from: lukesmom

*yawn*
Didn't expect anything less from a cold hearted proabort.

reply from: jujujellybean

I can't imagine. If anything like that ever happened to my little sister, because of me when I was in charge of her, I don't think I would ever forgive myself. I would not know what to do with myself. Nothing else would matter to me.

reply from: BossMomma

Sorry, I'm a responsible mom and never forget how many kids I put into the car and how many I remove from the car. I've never had an abortion so your damn right I've never caused a one of my kids to suffer so you can take your melodramatic rant and shove it. The situation discussed has nothing to do with aborting a previable fetus and everything to do with true child abuse and neglect, if a fetus suffers a moment's pain during an abortion which I doubt very strongly it is nothing compared to the hours it takes for a born child to die in a 100 degree car.

reply from: BossMomma

Nor do I. This isn't about having too many children- I believe this horrible event was due to expecting that the other children or spouse had accounted for that child. Either way, it is incredibly sad. May God bless this family with healing, comfort and strength. In Jesus Name.
May god bless them with a vasectomy and a tubal and a better memory. Too many babies and toddlers are dying locked in cars these days and can one even imagine the kind of death they go through? Suffocating in a hot car? If someone did that to a dog they'd be charged with animal cruelty, where is the justice for these neglected kids?
Either surgery won't bring their baby back. Yeah. The ASPCA was established before the foster care system was. Where is the justice for the mutilated, poisoned or vacuumed being? Do you only question justice for the wanted or birthed?
I question the justice denied to born persons with constitutional rights being left to die by negligent care takers, not previable fetii who have no rights that trump that of the woman.

reply from: smom

I would rather live the dance. Lukes mom Im praying for your babies and I hope great things will come from this. I learned something very important from my cousin who had died from breast cancer. In her fight of four years, she tirelessly changed peoples lives in her walk with Christ. She was scrubbing homes for others on their missions and even when the pain would overtake her at times, she would march into that church to her dieing breath. She faced her death head on. And she was a breathtaking inspiration for all who got the priviledge to be touched by her spirit. You wouldnt believe how many lives she had changed with her walk. A dance well done!!
Whose to say how it all goes. We have no control of what life dishes us. none. I remember my neighbor who was driving his sisters to the park, 18 overcompensated. He died. They lived. They received Jesus into their hearts. Their mother did too, their brother did too. A pastor was born out of this. His best friend and several families had a rippling effect. I remember how hateful he was and how he always was destructive in others lives. Lives were completely turned around and forever changed. It was beautiful. They use to be full of hate and listen to the heavy metal and so much pain and troubles in their families. You would never known it today. Its amazing. They absolutely through it out and destroyed their music and I was blessed to witness from the sidelines. Im not saying that his loss was the best thing for him to die. That he was that bad of a person. But the beauty of his loss changing the whole dynamic of his family and friends...undeniable.
Children are gifts. They are loaned to us for a short time. Its our free will how they will be raised and we will witness the outcome of our actions. shamed or blessed. But to have them, however long they are here. It definitely leaves an imprint on our hearts. Im glad that I have God in my life. Im glad that I keep him in the forefront and center of our family. If anything happens to my children and many a thing happens on a daily basis... I have the strength and comfort knowing He will walk me through whatever comes our way. Its the greatest gift that I can think of sharing my relationship to my children and He will direct their paths when I am no longer here to walk them through their trials and tribulations. What a gift!! A gift that keeps giving!!!
And to know personally, that they are not mine own alone. That they are God's and they will be a part of our community and create more families to come is a great undertaking, responsiblity and understanding. It defines me of how I need to act accordingly and be accountable of MY actions as a mother and to mold them into righteousness. And enhance the beauty that has already been created within them. Not dictate. Enhance. For they have a free will of their own to define how they will determine their lives too!
The fruit of the spirit..is joy, peace, faithfulness, kindness, gentleness, and self control Galations 4:22
Whatever happens to your children, whatever His will, Peace be with you. Keep the faith. However, wasnt it a great history together? A great undertaking? The laughter, the smiles, the tears, the kisses and hugs, the softness of their innocence, the precious walk of life that you always cherish. The messes and fingerprints yes, but the laughter amongst the chaos... The childplay that would crop up out of your own self. The accomplishments of everyday... the first words, the first walk, the first climb up the kitchen counter, the first makeup invasion, the broken dish, the peanutbutter fingers grabbing your skirts, the gum on our child's hair, the unfortunate haircuts.. the cheesie spray all over your bedroom, the makeovers, the sleepovers, the first day of school, the tornadoes that rip through your home, the bedtime stories, the first bike, the kisses before bedtime, the songs they practice when they are not aware people are listening, the awards and achievements, the Easter egg hunts with their grass stains and their very bests on.. and their wonder at all the candy!! Their holidays.. their glow... Whatever happens, I will pray for you. Keep up the faith!
Peace be with you.

reply from: smom

Now, about the preacher and his loss of his child.
No amount of jail time will compare to the pain and jail that he has formed in his own mind. You cannot be free of your own thoughts and pain... To be the blame of your own mistake. I truely pray for him and his family. The loss of a child is so great. We are their protectors. And the responsiblity is huge. They constantly press for freedoms to reign their own lives and do what THEY think is best, ready to butt heads with us when we dont agree. We are in a constant protective mode. And when we fail.. My heart goes out to them. They will face their demons true enough. It will be the test of their lives and hopefully a positive outcome. The punishment great. Its their job to find peace and life through this. The constant reminders will haunt them.
pray. their children need patience and a way to carry on. Not condemnation and hate speech. who among you are free from sin, may cast the first stone (Jesus about the prostitute that was to be stoned)
God considers all sin bad. Even a lie or to hate your brother is just as bad as murder. A lie can cause the death of millions. So who is sinless? Only through Jesus will be saved. Please dont judge. those that judge will be judged. peace be with you.

reply from: lukesmom

Sorry, I'm a responsible mom and never forget how many kids I put into the car and how many I remove from the car. I've never had an abortion so your damn right I've never caused a one of my kids to suffer so you can take your melodramatic rant and shove it. The situation discussed has nothing to do with aborting a previable fetus and everything to do with true child abuse and neglect, if a fetus suffers a moment's pain during an abortion which I doubt very strongly it is nothing compared to the hours it takes for a born child to die in a 100 degree car.
I am sooo very glad you are a responsible mom, so far.... all it takes is a moment and lives unitentionally change. This father considered himself a "responsible" parent also. If there is one thing in life I have learned is to "never say never" that way you won't have to eat your words. And yes, this has EVERYTHING to do with abortion because abortion is legalized child abuse in it's worst form, killing the victim. Melodramatic rant? Look at your post and look in the mirror, bend over and...well you know the rest as you posted it. Now when you can clean up your nasty little mind, post back if you want. I won't answer unless you remove your filth. I doubt you can though.

reply from: lukesmom

Thank you smom. I do have all our memories with all my kids, even my little angel who was with us for such a short time. I do know what you are saying. Without my faith and God's strength, I would be nothing. Anyway, we got GREAT news last week about my oldest. He can now again play competitive sports which is his world! A year of frustration, grief and prayers and now "normal" life for him again. This is actually one of God's many small miracles as a year ago we were told this would NEVER happen and that sudden cardiac death could happen at any time. Well, the sudden death could still happen but at least he can live his life which means everything to a 16 yr old.
God is good!

reply from: sweet

WOW
you are living a life that many only dream of! i once only dreamed of a life with a child - to experience the beauty of seeing my very own flesh and blood - to hear a baby's cry...to pull tiny, fat hands through shirt sleeves...to smell the sweet baby breathe...to wipe baby drull off my mouth...so what my "abs" might change...so what i can't leave any time i want...so what i can't sleep alot anymore...so what i might get stretch marks...so what kids are expensive...so what diapers are DIRTY...i prayed for the day to rub my protruding tummy...God answered!(times three!)
The meaning of my firstborn son's name is "God answered."
THIS JOY THAT I HAVE - THE WORLD DIDN'T GIVE IT TO ME!
i'm glad to know you take the time to cherish and appreciate what God blessed you with. sometimes we don't realize what we have until it is too late. you are a wonderful mom! may God continue to bless you and use you for HIS glory.

reply from: sweet

Sorry, I'm a responsible mom and never forget how many kids I put into the car and how many I remove from the car. I've never had an abortion so your damn right I've never caused a one of my kids to suffer so you can take your melodramatic rant and shove it. The situation discussed has nothing to do with aborting a previable fetus and everything to do with true child abuse and neglect, if a fetus suffers a moment's pain during an abortion which I doubt very strongly it is nothing compared to the hours it takes for a born child to die in a 100 degree car.
this type of accident is a whole separate topic from abortion. abortion is intentional. you may be responsible, but you are not immune to accidents!

reply from: sweet

listen to yourself for a second..."born persons."
"previable?"
and did your rights in your mom's womb "trump her rights?" are you disappointed at that?

reply from: yoda

wow.... now you're trying to justify abortion by the "amount of pain" involved versus other forms of death? absolutely freakin unbelievable...
Oh no...... yet another justification for abortion based on someone's rights "trumping" another person's "rights"...... wow.... what a concept..... "HEY, I CAN MURDER YOU BECAUSE MY RIGHTS TRUMP YOUR RIGHTS!"

reply from: galen

Sorry, I'm a responsible mom and never forget how many kids I put into the car and how many I remove from the car. I've never had an abortion so your damn right I've never caused a one of my kids to suffer so you can take your melodramatic rant and shove it. The situation discussed has nothing to do with aborting a previable fetus and everything to do with true child abuse and neglect, if a fetus suffers a moment's pain during an abortion which I doubt very strongly it is nothing compared to the hours it takes for a born child to die in a 100 degree car.
_______________________________________
actually BM it takes just a very few minutes for a child to die in 100 degree weather, the care soon shoots up past 145 degrees where the child would be rendered unconcious...
and guess what... it takes about that long to abort a child who is over 5 weeks geatation....long enough for them to feel just as much terror as the toddler in a car seat.
lukemom was most certainly not ranting... but you most certainly were... what are you and LCR clones or something... you both seem so reasonable at times and so melodramatic and off kilter at others. I also find it weird that both of you have the same ability to misinterpret/ read perfectly reasonable passages from other posters, and get all riled up when someone misreads/ interprets you....
hmmmmmm

reply from: galen

___________________________________
so glad to hear this!!!!!

reply from: BossMomma

listen to yourself for a second..."born persons."
"previable?"
and did your rights in your mom's womb "trump her rights?" are you disappointed at that?
My mother CHOSE to have me, abortion was a legal option that she could have taken and had she taken it I wouldn't be here, wouldn't know I ever existed. I never trumped her rights. No I'm not disapointed that I was born but had I never been born the world would keep spinning, nothing would have changed. What's your point?

reply from: BossMomma

wow.... now you're trying to justify abortion by the "amount of pain" involved versus other forms of death? absolutely freakin unbelievable...
Oh no...... yet another justification for abortion based on someone's rights "trumping" another person's "rights"...... wow.... what a concept..... "HEY, I CAN MURDER YOU BECAUSE MY RIGHTS TRUMP YOUR RIGHTS!"
Try sounding like a competant adult, I know it's difficult for you.

reply from: smom

you gals are bringing tears of joys to MY eyes!!! So glad to hear goodness in the darkness of this media gone mad world..
I'll tell you what.. when i first brought my firstborn home.. when we were driving home.. after reading all the books, i really couldnt believe they let me take him home!!! I knew NOTHING. I was freaking about thermostat -what is proper 'baby temps'???!!! I was hosed a few times.. and.. i walked his wee precious tiny sensitive head into a door frame!! I was so distraught!! By the time i went to clip his wee tiny fingernails, I managed to clip off a tiny piece of skin.. I really was questioning my paternal 'instincts?!' He's a very healthy energetic boy that has the sense of Crockett when it comes to the woods and Tarzan when it comes to activity.. Im so glad i didnt screw up entirely.
I can tell you about childhood incidents that... would scare the life out of a parent.. because of... parental..mishaps.
my neighbors gave birth to twins and were tuckered out and sleeping hard. My grandpa saw their older daughter that was 4yrs at the time... wandering down the highway. Somehow she'd slipped out the door about 8 in the morning and she had even slipped the chain lock at the top of their door. He swiftly returned her!
another time, I was working in front of a big plate glass window and i saw a three year old wandering around the same highway across the street. About to cross the road, a semi barreled through town..and I was diving to him as fast as humanly possible.. thankfully, i got to him before he crossed into another!!! I wasnt even sure who he was.. but i returned him to his mother(per postal lady) and mom(of 2) didnt even see him leave or know he'd gone! It only takes a few seconds. She still thanks me today here and there and gets worked up about it. Ive had a few scares myself.. but thinking about them will only bring unnecessary heart palpatations!!
Some parents have driven to work and accidently left their child in the car the entire day...forgetting to drop them off. Its not pleasant. Its so sad. Finding the horror of the living nightmare. I pray for them. You dont have to have many children to forget or lose your train of thoughts. It happens. Fortunately its not a common thing. Its those few that wake us up to the reality of what can happen to our own! And cause us to tighten up our bootstraps!!!(a small prayer for their family and baby)

reply from: yoda

Insults in the absence of actual rebuttal is not particularly "adult" sounding.
How does the amount of pain involved in an elective abortion justify it?
How does "trumping one's rights" give someone the right to kill the person whose rights have been trumped?

reply from: BossMomma

Sorry, I'm a responsible mom and never forget how many kids I put into the car and how many I remove from the car. I've never had an abortion so your damn right I've never caused a one of my kids to suffer so you can take your melodramatic rant and shove it. The situation discussed has nothing to do with aborting a previable fetus and everything to do with true child abuse and neglect, if a fetus suffers a moment's pain during an abortion which I doubt very strongly it is nothing compared to the hours it takes for a born child to die in a 100 degree car.
_______________________________________
actually BM it takes just a very few minutes for a child to die in 100 degree weather, the care soon shoots up past 145 degrees where the child would be rendered unconcious...
and guess what... it takes about that long to abort a child who is over 5 weeks geatation....long enough for them to feel just as much terror as the toddler in a car seat.
lukemom was most certainly not ranting... but you most certainly were... what are you and LCR clones or something... you both seem so reasonable at times and so melodramatic and off kilter at others. I also find it weird that both of you have the same ability to misinterpret/ read perfectly reasonable passages from other posters, and get all riled up when someone misreads/ interprets you....
hmmmmmm
Nothing was misinterpreted, I wasn't off kilter, I just have a low tolerance to bovine excrement.

reply from: BossMomma

Insults in the absence of actual rebuttal is not particularly "adult" sounding.
How does the amount of pain involved in an elective abortion justify it?
How does "trumping one's rights" give someone the right to kill the person whose rights have been trumped?
Simple, the previable fetus doesn't have rights to begin with.

reply from: 4given

Nor do I. This isn't about having too many children- I believe this horrible event was due to expecting that the other children or spouse had accounted for that child. Either way, it is incredibly sad. May God bless this family with healing, comfort and strength. In Jesus Name.
May god bless them with a vasectomy and a tubal and a better memory. Too many babies and toddlers are dying locked in cars these days and can one even imagine the kind of death they go through? Suffocating in a hot car? If someone did that to a dog they'd be charged with animal cruelty, where is the justice for these neglected kids?
Either surgery won't bring their baby back. Yeah. The ASPCA was established before the foster care system was. Where is the justice for the mutilated, poisoned or vacuumed being? Do you only question justice for the wanted or birthed?
I question the justice denied to born persons with constitutional rights being left to die by negligent care takers, not previable fetii who have no rights that trump that of the woman.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

reply from: Jameberlin

I don't think this story has anything to do with "too many" children... Only children die of negligence all the time. I don't think that a prison sentence would make these parents feel better/worse about what happened.. If it truly was an accident, as those happen... I can't even imagine the grieving they must be going through. I don't really understand it, myself... how people forget their children at home/in the car/at school/in the car seat etc. but i know it happens, and a lot of times it's accidental. I wonder, if a mother's child chokes to death on a peanutbutter sandwich (my parent's knew a couple who this happened to) and she dies because they didn't know how to dislodge it, or they were too far away from the hospital for it to even matter... Should they be charged with negligence too? After all, it's said that children should never be allowed to eat standing up, or without adult supervision... How about the fact that the couple lived over an hour away from the nearest hospital... theoretically, we could say they shouldn't be allowed to have children... since accidents happen, and to live far away from any emergency care is obviously negligent.
Criminal negligence is: recklessly acting without reasonable caution and putting another person at risk of injury or death (or failing to do something with the same consequences).
In order for a person to be charged with negligence though, there must be an actus reus (guilty act) accompanied by mens rea (negligence). Basically, without a guilty act, or without voluntarily acting toward the guilty act, it's not entirely "criminal" negligence...
It's better put this way... "The terms actus reus and mens rea developed in English Law, are derived from the principle stated by Edward Coke, namely, actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea, which means: "an act does not make a person guilty unless (their) mind is also guilty"; hence, the general test of guilt is one that requires proof of fault, culpability or blameworthiness both in behaviour and mind."
Like i said, i can't imagine forgetting my child in the car... I can't think of a situation where i wouldn't be able to remember that they were in there... but i know it happens. I don't know that it's any more or less negligent, though, than a parent who allows their child to go to a friends house and the child runs into the street and dies... every action comes with a consequence. Everything we do affect someone, somehow...
I don't think that it means that anyone has the right to say that they should or shouldn't be allowed to have children at all... They made a mistake, one that cost them dearly, and it's terrible. The courts will decide what their punishment should be, if any.
Also, to say someone else should have a tubal ligation, or a vasectomy is not pro-choice... it's putting your opinion out there that, according to you, some people should not be allowed to procreate... that's not choice, it's eugenics.

reply from: yoda

We know the law, repeating it constantly doesn't add much to the debate.
I maintain that unborn humans (all of them) OUGHT to have a legal right to life simply because they are human beings and they haven't done anything to deserve the death sentence of abortion.
Do you have a rational response to that?

reply from: BossMomma

We know the law, repeating it constantly doesn't add much to the debate.
I maintain that unborn humans (all of them) OUGHT to have a legal right to life simply because they are human beings and they haven't done anything to deserve the death sentence of abortion.
Do you have a rational response to that?
Yep, beliefs are like belly buttons, everyone has one and they'er all different. You can maintain that the moon is made of cheese but it wont matter one whit in a court of law.

reply from: sweet

we should LOVE our babies...even while they're in our womb!

reply from: BossMomma

we should LOVE our babies...even while they're in our womb!
And I do, however you, just like I can't control how the next woman feels.

reply from: yoda

We're working on that, actually.
"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless".
-Dr. Martin Luther King

reply from: BossMomma

We're working on that, actually.
"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless".
-Dr. Martin Luther King
M'kay, lemme know how it turns out. I'll be here enjoying my family and minding my business.

reply from: yoda

Don't worry..... this website will be the first to let you know.....

reply from: BossMomma

Do forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

reply from: yoda

I don't mind....... hold it or don't, it's all the same to me.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I've been away for a while, but I wanted to repeat part of my OP and explain it.
For those of you who thought I was bashing large families, notice the question mark in the topic title. "Too many children?" was not a statement or an indictment.
"Anyone who "forgets" where their barely-toddler-aged baby is for SEVERAL HOURS shouldn't have children. Remember, this father TOLD his wife that HE would bring the baby into the house. BOTH parents forgot about their baby until one of their OTHER children noticed that the baby was missing.
Can you imagine the uproar if this had happened to an unmarried minority couple living in the projects who did it after a night of drinking??? The fact that it was a nice, white couple from a "good" area - and that Dad is a pastor - should have no bearing whatsoever."
Why mention that dad is a pastor? To show that he is probably not a drug addict or generally irresponsible person, but SHOULD be a good Christian family man.
I've raised two children and can guarantee you that I ALWAYS knew where they were at that age. Toddlers are crawlers, climbers, etc. and get hurt easily. You must keep them constantly in sight.
Accidents happen, but this was not a blown tire or oncoming car - it was a case of 2 grown adults, parents of four children, who were so tired/busy/unconcerned/forgetful that they BOTH completely forgot about their youngest child until one of their other CHILDREN noticed the baby's absence - HOURS later.
Yes, they are suffering from their own idiocy. Unfortunately that is how some people learn hard lessons. I hope they both go to jail and their other children are taken from them.

reply from: BossMomma

we should LOVE our babies...even while they're in our womb!
Some women don't, nothing can change that unless you feel you should be able to control peoples thoughts and opinions.

reply from: yoda

we should LOVE our babies...even while they're in our womb!
Some women don't, nothing can change that unless you feel you should be able to control peoples thoughts and opinions.
So true...... and some parents hate their born children as well...... so you must support infanticide, right?

reply from: BossMomma

we should LOVE our babies...even while they're in our womb!
Some women don't, nothing can change that unless you feel you should be able to control peoples thoughts and opinions.
So true...... and some parents hate their born children as well...... so you must support infanticide, right?
No, but I do wonder if you can jump through hoops as well as you jump to conclusion. Once a child is born alive it has as many rights as I do, I support the Born Alive Infants protection law that prevents children from being killed after botched abortions. I'm not an Obama supporter, in fact I've registered to vote and actually intend to vote for the first time as a McCain supporter.

reply from: yoda

But that's a legalistic dodge.
Why don't you think that unborn babies also ought to have the right not to be killed?
Why do you oppose that?

reply from: Jameberlin

Good for you momma! I wouldn't... couldn't support anyone who would vote against the born alive act either.

reply from: BossMomma

But that's a legalistic dodge.
Why don't you think that unborn babies also ought to have the right not to be killed?
Why do you oppose that?
Because the unborn require the use of a woman's body to survive, a newborn can be cared for by anyone if the woman doesn't want it. You cannot adopt out a fetus and I don't feel that pregnancy should be forced.

reply from: smom

a previable fetus doesnt have rights? A innocent baby doesnt have rights?
I'd say that is a matter of legislation that hopefully will be shown for the shamefulness it is. Its shameful for a mother to decide that her lifestyle is more precious than any life of a child. Its wrong. previable... fetus...?? mere terms that shade the truth. But when the truth unfolds people wake up.

reply from: yoda

So you elevate the fact that a woman "doesn't want it" to the level of a justification for the slaughter of the "unwanted one"?
Wow, if we extended that logic to the born, think of how many people we could justify killing!!

reply from: RiverMoonLady

The local DA has decided NOT to file any charges against the killers of this child, calling it a "tragic accident."
I am sure that a drunken single mother of color would not have gotten away so easily had she had the same "tragic accident" happen to her baby.

reply from: BossMomma

So if there is no readily available alternative to breastfeeding, the mother can allow her newborn to starve to death in order to avoid allowing it to "use her body?"

Do you assert that a mother may ethically refuse to provide for her born child if she doesn't want it? I mean, just because somebody else could[ conceivably care for it doesn't mean somebody else will be willing and able, and even if they are, that doesn't mean they can take over immediately upon the mother deciding she doesn't want to care for it, right? Do you assert that mothers have a right to refuse to care for their children? Do you assert that they are entitled to be immediately rid of their children in the event they decide they do not want to care for them?
If the only way a mother could be immediately rid of her born child and/or refuse to care for it involved killing it or allowing it to die, does she have that right? That's what we're talking about here, isn't it? The implication is that the mother has no moral obligation to care for her child, right?
You are using an unrealistic situation to combat a realistic situation. First, a woman may relinquish any responsibility for her newborn by leaving it at a hospital, police station or, firestation. Anyone can care for a newborn, if the infant cannot take formula hospitals have special solutions that provide nutrients for such babies, there is also doner milk. You don't have a point. No one can gestate a fetus but the woman pregnant, there are no procedures for fetal transplant and adoption. If the woman who is pregnant does not wish to remain so, she doesn't and shouldn't have to.

reply from: Hosea

This bears repeating. I would hope for the death penalty if I cause the death of my child. That is the only time I would be for it. It would be much more torture to live with the knowledge that you caused your baby to die than to die. I feel sorry for the man , his family , and for the dead child. I Don't know how I could ever forgive myself. It would be life long misery to remember what I let mychild go though. That is why I think abortion hurts women. They have to remember that they allowed there child to die intentionally. I feel so bad for these women who have to grieve silently in shame and I hope they are all blessed with healing.

reply from: 4given

To accept healing, one must first acknowledge wrong. My heart has broken for these women. Initially I was so angry that these precious lives were taken for granted and met such a violent end. At times I still can't fathom any being that would intentionally kill their offspring in such a selfish and heinous way. I do understand what may lead to it, the reasons behind it and how dishonest the abortion industry is to these women. I still struggle with the idea that these women were unaware that their child was a unique human being. God has broken my heart for them at times. It does not erase the fact that these innocent lives endured more torture than prayerfully no one close to us will have to endure. Women have to accept their abortions with the truth of what they allowed. Men as well. Some will never know the shame and hurt was crucified for them, because they feel unworthy. Sin covers sin. The redeemed post-abortive women have become an asset to the pro-life community and the unborn.

reply from: 4given

Oh yeah, right, we can't think for ourselves - so it's just as well we have men like you to do that for us!
Where would we be without you to tell us how we feel and think?!?!
Foolish beast. You aren't a woman and could never personally face the opportunity to abort or conceive a child. Who is "we"? You want to again hurt a sincere woman that has lost her child through spontaneous abortion? Just like you did to another poster that lost her child from prematurity?

reply from: 4given

If you are actually cruel enough to say things like that...
Then you aren't human.
I am not buying your melodrama "Caitlin". Have an ounce of respect for the women and men you attack- seems you have taken a liking to the ability to cause further pain to women that have lost their children.. or do you just skip over the details when deciding to post? If you do so, I will surely call you on it. You lost your mother. You may never know what it is like to lose a child. You will not ever comprehend what it is like to have life taken from your womb. Only a mother can comprehend what that is like. You are showing once again that you don't respect the pain, life or loss of these women (their men) and especially not the lives of their children.
Am I wrong?

reply from: BossMomma

What if there is a natural disaster, like the hurricane that decimated New Orleans? Does a woman have a moral right to refuse to allow her child to "use her body" or not? Does she have a moral right to be rid of her child just because she doesn't want it or not? If so, does she have a moral right to be rid of it immediately upon deciding she doesn't want it? Don't dodge the questions by declaring them "unrealistic," they're about principles. All can be clearly answered with "yes" or "no."
First what does a natural disaster have to do with this? Seriously you are reaching. And yes, a woman has a right to relinquish custody of a child if she does not want it, that's one of the reasons we have CPS, if she does not wish to provide care for her newborn she even has a legal obligation to relinquish the child to someone who will. As far as principles and morals go, those are subjective and differ from person to person. I do not dodge logical questions, but when one has to resort to reaching for unrealistic hypotheticals I must question their insight on the topic.

reply from: BossMomma

No because there are legal alternatives.

reply from: BossMomma

If you are actually cruel enough to say things like that...
Then you aren't human.
Actually he is very human, human's are the only species on this earth capable of intentional cruelty.

reply from: BossMomma

What if there is a natural disaster, like the hurricane that decimated New Orleans? Does a woman have a moral right to refuse to allow her child to "use her body" or not? Does she have a moral right to be rid of her child just because she doesn't want it or not? If so, does she have a moral right to be rid of it immediately upon deciding she doesn't want it? Don't dodge the questions by declaring them "unrealistic," they're about principles. All can be clearly answered with "yes" or "no."
First what does a natural disaster have to do with this? Seriously you are reaching. And yes, a woman has a right to relinquish custody of a child if she does not want it, that's one of the reasons we have CPS, if she does not wish to provide care for her newborn she even has a legal obligation to relinquish the child to someone who will. As far as principles and morals go, those are subjective and differ from person to person. I do not dodge logical questions, but when one has to resort to reaching for unrealistic hypotheticals I must question their insight on the topic.
None of the questions I just asked you involved any hypothetical situation. They address your moral principles. Stop dodging and answer them.
I detailed my morals in my very first post, morally I do not feel that a woman should be a slave to anyone elses morals, religion, politics or, to any part of her body and legally, she is not. If you don't like the law it's between you and congress but between you and me, I don't care about your morals when the law supports mine.

reply from: BossMomma

They are obviously relevant....I don't get it.
Of course you don't get it, it's logical.

reply from: BossMomma

See answer 2.
Damn it, my answer didn't post right. Yes to all 3 questions, morality not withstanding a woman may legally relinquish custody of a child she doesn't want to either another family member or to the state.

reply from: Hosea

Hey Vexing,
I am a woman and mother, not a man. I love my reproductive ability. I look at my hormones, ovaries, and womb as assets. I am not a radical feminist who hates my womb.

reply from: Hosea

To accept healing, one must first acknowledge wrong. My heart has broken for these women. Initially I was so angry that these precious lives were taken for granted and met such a violent end. At times I still can't fathom any being that would intentionally kill their offspring in such a selfish and heinous way. I do understand what may lead to it, the reasons behind it and how dishonest the abortion industry is to these women. I still struggle with the idea that these women were unaware that their child was a unique human being. God has broken my heart for them at times. It does not erase the fact that these innocent lives endured more torture than prayerfully no one close to us will have to endure. Women have to accept their abortions with the truth of what they allowed. Men as well. Some will never know the shame and hurt was crucified for them, because they feel unworthy. Sin covers sin. The redeemed post-abortive women have become an asset to the pro-life community and the unborn.
Amen to that sister

reply from: BossMomma

See answer 2.
1. If a mother has a right to refuse to allow her child to "use her body," then she may obviously refuse to breastfeed, right? Even if she has no alternative method of feeding her child....In other words, she may starve her child in order to avoid breastfeeding it....
2. If you ignore questions concerning morality, how do you intend to discuss the abortion issue? It is a fact that abortion is currently legal, and that is not debatable. At issue here is whether it is morally justifiable. Sure, that is subjective! If it were not, it would be equally indisputable and also not debatable. Your objections are just a common dodge utilized in this debate.
3. Ah, I see you answered the third question in another post. You feel a mother has a moral right to be immediately rid of her child if she so desires. So, the safety and well being of the child are not an issue in your view? You feel that a mother who decides she no longer wishes to care for her child would be morally justified to simply put it down and walk away? Regardless of the consequences for the child?
4. (Was not addressed)
The law requires that the woman who relinquishes the child do so legally. A woman has the right to safely surrender her child. Do I agree that a woman has the right to ditch her kid in the street? No, as I said there are legal alternatives. You are simply being obtuse as usual, lacking any real argument you grasp at straws.

reply from: Hosea

Do you like men telling you what you think and feel?
I wouldn't let a man tell me how I feel. I do believe it is wrong that a man has no say if his wife hass an abortion. It is his kid too.

reply from: Hosea

Yes, I am pro-life. Yes, I believe abortion hurts women. I believe wmoen who have lost a child whether it be though abortion, miscarriag , or stillbirth suffer from losing their child. Yes, I believe that if abortion was illegal both women and men would benefit, especially women. Keeping abortion legal promotes that a man can be irresponsible.

reply from: BossMomma

Hey hosea, all cheap shots aside, what did that have to do with abortion?

reply from: BossMomma

See answer 2.
Damn it, my answer didn't post right. Yes to all 3 questions, morality not withstanding a woman may legally relinquish custody of a child she doesn't want to either another family member or to the state.
Once more, this is not about legality, but morality. I'm questioning your morality. Legally, a parent has an obligation to provide for her child all it's basic needs. This may be done by delegating her responsibility to a third party, of course, the issue being that the child's needs are met. Of course, it would seem to me that it would be quite difficult to argue that while the mother herself has no moral obligation to care for her own child, a third party would be obligated to do so in the event she refuses, yes?
If we were simply discussing legality, you would be mistaken in asserting that a mother has a "right" to refuse to care for her child and that she is entitled to immediate relief in the event she is unwilling to do so. The laws you have referred to are called "safe surrender" laws for a reason. The intent behind them is to protect children from irresponsible parents, not to protect any presumed and fictitious "right" to refuse to provide your child's needs...
Would not a parent who refuses to care for their child be an "irresponsible parent"? If a parent refuses to accept responsibility she is both entitled and expected to surrender the child to those who will, failure to do so would result in punitive action by the law. And, if you mean to enter a moral argument with me you are wasting your time, morals differ vastly and cannot be forced upon anyone unless the law agrees with said morals and, being that the law agrees with me, I fail to see how you can win such an argument.

reply from: Hosea

Hey hosea, all cheap shots aside, what did that have to do with abortion?
Hi Bossmomma,
Vexing thought I couldn't understand because I was a man. So I as explaining that I am a woman.
God bless you and all here
Hosea

reply from: lukesmom

Wanna show what you are talking about? I don't see any post here where she is speaking on behalf of anyone but herself. I think you've been talking to Bossy too much and catching her delusions.

reply from: CharlesD

We have had two cases where I live in the last year. Both times the mother got off lightly. I don't know what I think in this case. My wife and I have been trying for seven years to have a child and haven't succeeded yet, so we can't understand how someone could be so absent minded as to forget your baby. In both of these cases the mothers were going through pure hell over what happened. Neither of these women were on drugs or anything like that. Both were otherwise responsible women. I have been struggling with what I believe is an appropriate action to take in these cases. Obviously the anguish these women are going through has to be as bad as any prison sentence could be. They have to live with this for the rest of their lives. All I can say is that we should pray for people who go through this.

reply from: lukesmom

I think we all struggle with what the appropriate action would be. I am sorry to hear of your struggle with infertility. It is painful. We too went through this for 5 years and now have 4 living children and 2 angels. We are lucky and I hope and pray for the same luck for you. I know it is hard to understand how these parents could have forgotten their child but with 4 kids I "never say never" instead I say "There but for the grace of God go I." Any of us could make this horrible mistake. I can tell you the grief they feel is worse than any punishment man could give them and to add self blame to that grief must be pain beyond understanding.

reply from: smom

Each day I thank God for the wonderful gift of today. We could ALL be gone tomorrow. By my mistakes.. or by others... by accident, or not... Its a gift. I count my wonderful blessings and truely appreciate what we have. Today, I attended a memorial for a child who touched my heart and passed on. He had about forty people standing in a circle in his remembrance. He had us ALL in tears of joy as we shared all the ways that he had moved through us in the past few years... I WISH I could tell him YES! MY SON CAN SPEND NIGHT!!!(instead of...'another time..') and laugh with him.... I will no longer dwell on it. But it was so... magical on how he spent his time reaching out to ALL the people in our church... Him alone, by his OWN 9yr old volitions... He came to church... every Sunday on his own... Im so glad to have spent time with him. What Im saying is... Life is too precious- however it comes.
Sometimes... I revel on How did God know that I needed that guest?! Or thanks for the day that I received.. Thanks that I got to spend a nice afternoon with my best friend... Or thanks that my neighbor got to come over and we got to share our lives... Its like a small gift to open each day.. And treasures untold.
Thats what i learned from having my kids... Just being SOOOO grateful that I got to enjoy what came my way that day... AND SOOOOOO thankful that nobody was harmed in the process!!!!!! I hear of tragedies.. of classmates' children.. or neighbors.. or community... I try very hard not to take each day for granted. I try to implant a kiss on each of my babies.. I try to give that hug.. that you sometimes 'doubt people might want'.. I just go for it!! Life is WAY too short to sprinkle doubt on kindness and tenderness. I absolutely pray for that family... my heart aches for them. Im also thankful to know someone out there... that has had as many kids as me.. and can understand the ....'routine' of things... and 'my train of thoughts' WHAT A BLESSING!

reply from: smom

concerned parent- without going into too much detail, as im quite busy at the moment... Obviously, we may have some more details that need to be scratched out into the laws. Maybe in a more productive light... we could ask for more basket stops, such as school offices, businesses, homes, etc.. that it could be MORE accessible for maybe 'distressed young moms' *no questions asked* especially the school aged.. I had heard of a mother trying to flush her baby away in a school bathroom when help was about to arrive.. its sad that they dont have faith in us to help them. We need to lift that vail for our youth.
Also, apparently, in sexual education classes, we should be giving them prenatal care classes,and parenting classes to give them a education on how to take care of their baby and their 'disposal'(i hate the thought...i mean to a safe place) in a safe manner ..how sad that we have to far reach. But.. when we do share such information.. please give them the thought that their are people that are willing to help them tooo! God, I'd be an advocate! I'd be there for my local teen and walk them through it if they needed a little boost of hope or comfort... or whatever.. there are women out there that would give of themselves to help mom and baby stay together... or... the alternative. *had we KNOWN* that there was an inkling of troubles.. we always find out in the aftermath though.. the laws are so cold cut and dry. We need to lift the vail on these young moms. some of them are still kids.. kids making kid choices... we need the information out.. so that they can make... the adult choices that theyve stepped into. Ones that protect their rights as a person AND THEIR INNOCENT BABY. I mean.. we make sure and tell the children all the SEX info.. what ages are appropriate or unlawful... what std's are and how transferrable they are.. but do we INFORM the FUTURE FUTURE...mothers to be and their fathers to be..... what is appropriate when a baby is on the way... what will happen.. what the baby needs... what their rights are with or without the baby... are we CLEAR as can be on that? Or are we just a wee bit shady... I dont remember anyone touching on THOSE facts in sex ed. I do remember a condom on a banana... gross, btw....
(some silly thoughts..)What do people have against carrying a baby full term??are they afraid?? Babies dont bite. You know, if they carried it full term... they might be a little more careful the next time... I hope? Some people have to learn the hard way... my hubby calls them 'Bad luck Billy's'. That person that just keeps a goin it his own way regardless of the consequences and the outcomes... Just wont learn for nothin... you cant help'm ... you just gotta pray nobody gets hurt by 'm. It dont matter how many times you tell'm... they just dont wanna hear the truth.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Not per se, but the law prohibits any "act or omission" that would reasonably be assumed to potentially harm the child. If you can refuse to breastfeed without harming the child (such as when a viable alternative is readily available), it would be no crime to do so. If, on the other hand, for any reason, breastfeeding is the only available means of providing nutrition for the child, it would be criminal abuse/neglect to refuse to do so.
So, the next time I see one of the local teenage moms pushing her baby down the street in a stroller, a bottle of Kool-Aid hanging out of its mouth, its face covered with dirt and grime, a dirty old diaper hanging half off the baby's butt, it's okay to stop Mommy and take her and her baby to the police station?
Half the girls and women I see with babies don't have a clue about good child care and don't deserve to even have kids. The things I hate the most:
- Mom holds baby and smokes cigarettes, exhaling right by baby's moth
- Mom picks pacifier up off ground and shoves it back in baby's mouth
- Mom hangs around outside pizza shop with baby and a group of her teenage friends (like there isn't anything to be done at home)
- Not enough clothing in cold weather, or too much clothing in warm weather, on baby
- Mom skips formula or milk because soda and KoolAid are cheaper
- Baby obviously needs clean diaper and Mommy is either completely unaware or too lazy to change it
- Mom feeds baby crumbs of her own fast food junk
If you are going to have a child, that child (and ALL of your children) should be your life's priorities. They simply cannot take care of themselves and need a lot of help. If you are not ready for that responsibility, give your baby up for adoption.

reply from: BossMomma

Not per se, but the law prohibits any "act or omission" that would reasonably be assumed to potentially harm the child. If you can refuse to breastfeed without harming the child (such as when a viable alternative is readily available), it would be no crime to do so. If, on the other hand, for any reason, breastfeeding is the only available means of providing nutrition for the child, it would be criminal abuse/neglect to refuse to do so.
So, the next time I see one of the local teenage moms pushing her baby down the street in a stroller, a bottle of Kool-Aid hanging out of its mouth, its face covered with dirt and grime, a dirty old diaper hanging half off the baby's butt, it's okay to stop Mommy and take her and her baby to the police station?
Half the girls and women I see with babies don't have a clue about good child care and don't deserve to even have kids. The things I hate the most:
- Mom holds baby and smokes cigarettes, exhaling right by baby's moth
- Mom picks pacifier up off ground and shoves it back in baby's mouth
- Mom hangs around outside pizza shop with baby and a group of her teenage friends (like there isn't anything to be done at home)
- Not enough clothing in cold weather, or too much clothing in warm weather, on baby
- Mom skips formula or milk because soda and KoolAid are cheaper
- Baby obviously needs clean diaper and Mommy is either completely unaware or too lazy to change it
- Mom feeds baby crumbs of her own fast food junk
If you are going to have a child, that child (and ALL of your children) should be your life's priorities. They simply cannot take care of themselves and need a lot of help. If you are not ready for that responsibility, give your baby up for adoption.
Amen to that.

reply from: yoda

Wow, you seem to be advocating that women OUGHT to be allowed to starve their (born) babies to death....... well, I guess that's "prochoice", right?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's ridiculous! If the woman has already gone dry (because she's been bottle feeding) then the baby could suckle all it wanted. Nothing would happen. Secondly, NOT ALL WOMEN MAKE MILK! Thirdly, some babies are lactose intolerant so force-feeding them breast milk would actually harm them MORE than starvation (or drinking plain water) would. Fourthly, NO ONE has the right to force a woman to breast-feed. That is NOT a law in the USA. Your argument is objective fiction, not reality.

reply from: yoda

You too?
Let's make this simple....... say a woman HAS plenty of milk, and there is no other food available for the newborn baby..... do you still advocate that she be allowed to starve it to death?

reply from: BossMomma

Not per se, but the law prohibits any "act or omission" that would reasonably be assumed to potentially harm the child. If you can refuse to breastfeed without harming the child (such as when a viable alternative is readily available), it would be no crime to do so. If, on the other hand, for any reason, breastfeeding is the only available means of providing nutrition for the child, it would be criminal abuse/neglect to refuse to do so.
I disagree.
A mother can refuse to breastfeed her baby in ANY situation.
And I do not believe she would be breaking any law.
It's not debatable. It is objective reality. If you do not have any other means of feeding your child, you are required by law to allow it to suckle. It is a crime in the U.S. to allow your child to starve while having the means to feed it...You really don't believe we have laws against starving infants?
Show me a woman who has been imprisoned for refusing to feed her infant.
A woman NEVER HAS to breastfeed.
Not in the US, but in countries where formula is not readily available, not breast feeding an infant would mean starvation for the baby.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't see any woman EVER choosing to not breast feed her child in that type of situation, so it's kind of like saying if someone would voluntarily impale themselves on a hot skewer just to avoid getting a drink. It's just not going to happen.
But if a situation arose where a woman for some reason didn't want to breastfeed her starving child... I have absolutely no idea how I feel about this situation. I can't answer; I honestly can't. It's just too preposterous. I think every woman would choose to feed. I just can't see a woman saying no.
Because her breasts are part of her body (even if they are producing milk FOR the baby) I do sort of feel like she has the right to do with them what she wants. I don't know what "that" would BE, if she's not feeding her child.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

There's actually an entire village of humans where none of the women lactate. The men breast-feed the babies. It's pretty interesting.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I think it's your responsibility to do everything you can to save your child, so that would mean it's your responsibility to breastfeed if that's what's required BUT on the same token, I don't think she should be FORCED to do so; it's her choice. She'd HAVE to have a reason; I cannot think of ANY woman purposely starving her child to death. I just don't see it happening. Period.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

But that's in normal, every day life. We're not talking about that. We're talking about "omg stranded alone with no bottle, just my boobs, and a baby".

reply from: BossMomma

I never really understood withholding the breast from a baby though, I nursed all of mine and it was such a peaceful experience. Not that I feel it should be forced but it's always made me wonder.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Some women have really bad experiences including chapped nipples! Having experienced slightly chapped nipples from - er... rather enthusiastic sex, lol - and also having rubbed them raw from being stupid and wearing an embroidered loose shirt with no bra (DO NOT DO!!), I can completely symathize with these women, and I'm sure my pain was no where near as bad as theirs. True, that chapping is often caused by incorrect nursing but still, it does happen. Other women are uncomfortable with their bodies in public or in general!

reply from: BossMomma

Some women have really bad experiences including chapped nipples! Having experienced slightly chapped nipples from - er... rather enthusiastic sex, lol - and also having rubbed them raw from being stupid and wearing an embroidered loose shirt with no bra (DO NOT DO!!), I can completely symathize with these women, and I'm sure my pain was no where near as bad as theirs. True, that chapping is often caused by incorrect nursing but still, it does happen. Other women are uncomfortable with their bodies in public or in general!
-------------------------
Sorry, the quote feature didn't want to work for some reason. Actually if done right nursing is painless, the error that most women make is only offering the nipple, the baby is supposed to take in a good portion of the aereola too. Also the baby's lips should not fold in when baby nurses. Many a time painful nursing is a result of improper latch on. I got good enough at nursing that I nursed laying down and slept while my baby nursed.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Silly quoting XD Yeah, I've read a lot of sites about it, the baby is supposed to have a whole mouthful of boob. That way it's not sucking on just one tiny spot; the pressure is spread out over a larger area. Just like lying on a bed of nails! Only, not really. lol.

reply from: smom

nursing my tot sure helps me bring my emotions in check when he has been ornery ALL day.. and refuses hugs... constantly getting into his troubles of doin the things he KNOWS he shouldnt do... but he likes to test me.... with his wicked little smiles... and his.. And his FULL OF ENERGY bouncing off the walls go-go day... With me.. constantly picking him up out of his troubles... and... him pushing me away to play, play, PLAY!!!! then, he collapses helplessly in my arms and molds to my body. He suckles himself into a deep and dreamy sleep.. And I get all the hug I need until tomorrow!!! I will surely miss these days...
Concerned.. Im not sure of our sex ed.. only from my own experience a 'few' years back...(I'll be checking into it, though.) i tell you. Nothing was said about then the "end" results other than sex, SEX, SEX!!!! and of course the possibilities of std's or pregnancy..(no informative info on babies or their needs) Thankfully, I was a simpleton and didnt want drama in my life. But, seriously.. If we are raising future 'adults' shouldnt we press more info to them that gives them the balanced portion. Even if they cannot change these abortion laws.. I want to know that we can change some hearts to THINK first, or REACT in a better way.
It breaks my heart to hear your story. Im sad for her too. Maybe somehow, someway... she could pick herself up from this fall... and dust herself off.. and help others. Maybe help make a home for one of the 500,000 kids in foster care. There are plenty of kids that would LOVE a steady homelife. (thats a longterm goal... not in her current state of mind) Something to bring her out of her depths.. I pray for you and your loved ones. Even in her hurts and pain...it has caused you grief too! She is not the only one that has pain. In different ways it has wounded many.

reply from: smom

thats a bit ludicrous. an infant is surely to get lethargic and dehydrate at a much, MUCH faster rate than a full grown adult. Its kind of like... If you dont react quick enough.. they wont have enough energy to even suckle by a certain point.
Regardless.
If you DONT allow the innocent baby to suckle.. they will cry your damn ears off until they are fed!!!! They will bop their heads on you and pull at your hair.. pinch, scratch...get all tensed up and turn very HOSTILE!!!!........
THEY WILL DEMAND TO BE FED!!!!
You wouldnt be able to ignore their pleas... Its torture for both!!!!!!
it can get quite ugly. Had an experience trying to find a more...modest place to feed. They will create an entire public scene. They dont care.. Just want to be FED!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Believe me,... I know now the first signs of wanting a feeding..(now)
my son and i have a signal. we make a sucking sound to each other.. and you better believe it- I MAKE TIME. He definitely makes eye contact and thats all he has to do.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I'm not justifying killing children, I'm just saying I don't believe a woman should be forced to breast-feed in normal circumstances. In a disaster zone, let's be honest. Who's actually going to know? And if the disaster lasts long enough, she's going to dry up from personal malnutrition anyway. It costs the body a lot to breast feed, so actually, if she were in danger of dying herself from malnutrition, she may choose to survive over her child, stop feeding so she'll dry up faster and be able to live. That would be a horrible position to be in, but the drive for personal survival is extremely powerful so I can see it happening.
Yes, I still do feel that the fact remains you DO have an absolute right to refuse to allow your child to use your body. It's called YOUR body for a reason; not "the baby's milk bag". I cannot think of a single real-life situation where a woman would A- refuse the child her breast in the first place, and then B- be accused of child abuse. It has never happened in modern history here in the US that I know of.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No, you wouldn't be. Especially if you weren't breastfeeding in the first place. It has never happened and never WILL happen.
Ah, yes you do, otherwise you're just blowing smoke.
Then why has a case around it never gone to court? Probably because it'll never happen in the first place!!
You are? What if it's a toddler, and rotten potatoes are the only food. Are you legally obligated to force feed your child rotten food? No; that's stupid.
Yep, you're just blowing smoke.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Like LCR said, I cannot see this happening because no woman would do that to their child.
However, if in the above scenario the woman still refused to breastfeed, I do not believe she would be prosecuted - for it could be a danger for her to suckle the child and lose precious hydration.
Bingo. Just like abortion, with breast feeding, the baby is not the only person who can benefit or be harmed.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

The thing is, if we change people's hearts, the laws on abortion will change too. People's hearts had to change for the civil war to happen, and that same change will need to happen again if abortion is to become illegal.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Will a baby that has been bottle fed since birth do all of that? If I were this hypothetical woman in a disaster zone refusing to feed my child, I wouldn't be anywhere near the baby. I'd hide it away somewhere safe and leave. Because I couldn't stand to hear those cries; but I'd have to be depriving it for some really darn good reason, of which NONE comes to mind.

reply from: yoda

So essentially you refuse to answer the question. Okay, I can understand why you would take that route..... it's a no win question for you, isn't it?

reply from: yoda

I'm not surprised by your answer at all. Rather than focusing on the actual moral question, you're quibbling about whether she could get away with it or not.
No, I'm not surprised by that at all.

reply from: yoda

So she "should do it", and to not do it would cost the baby it's life, yet you don't want any laws that would "force" her NOT to starve the baby to death.
Now you are supporting infanticide..... why am I not surprised?

reply from: yoda

That's what we're trying to do. But you don't change people's hearts by opposing antiabortion laws, thus supporting abortion. For 35 years we've tried to convince people of the wrongness of abortion, but abortion is still here. We know we'll never convince everyone, so we're trying to convince a majority, so we can get laws changed to protect the children of those who will not ever change their hearts. YOUR approach would leave those children forever unprotected.
"Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless".
-Dr. Martin Luther King

reply from: yoda

Wow..... you really are incredibly determined to preserve the right to starve a baby to death. That's sad, just sad.

reply from: lukesmom

Just a clarification for teaching, mother's breast milk is specially designed for the child she is carrying, so, even if the child is lactose intolerant, the breast milk from his/her mother would be best for that specific child.

reply from: lukesmom

Another teaching moment: Lanolin crm is wonderful and "chapped nipples" are treatable, a dead child from starvation is not.

reply from: lukesmom

That is actually a matter of opinion.

reply from: BossMomma

Now my first attempt at nursing was painful, the expression on my face priceless. It felt like the kid was biting my nipple off but I was determined that my son would get breast milk only so it was learn or grit and bear it lol. It got easier once I got a lactation consultant to show me how, most hospitals offer a class on nursing, or at least someone to come to your room and show you some pointers.

reply from: BossMomma

Does anyone else read CP's posts and start thinking "Blah blah blah...."

reply from: lukesmom

Does anyone else read CP's posts and start thinking "Blah blah blah...."
Nope, but I do think that when reading evasive, hateful name calling post by...do we even need to mention WHO?

reply from: BossMomma

Does anyone else read CP's posts and start thinking "Blah blah blah...."
Nope, but I do think that when reading evasive, hateful name calling post by...do we even need to mention WHO?
And there's the pro-life chihuahua barking behind the legs of someone else.

reply from: lukesmom

Does anyone else read CP's posts and start thinking "Blah blah blah...."
This is what you hear when there is nothing between the ears but space. The sound "Blah blah blah" is sound boucing off the inside of that airspace.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Just a clarification for teaching, mother's breast milk is specially designed for the child she is carrying, so, even if the child is lactose intolerant, the breast milk from his/her mother would be best for that specific child.
Not true. I have heard stories of women who desperately wanted to breast feed but couldn't, because their child kept throwing it up/diarrhea because they were lactose intolerant. Breast milk is still milk. These women were very upset.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

So essentially you refuse to answer the question. Okay, I can understand why you would take that route..... it's a no win question for you, isn't it?
Actually, I did answer the question. Several times. It just seems so preposterous to me that personally, my answer - as well as the question - are meaningless, and should not be taken as anything serious.

reply from: Jameberlin

Just a clarification for teaching, mother's breast milk is specially designed for the child she is carrying, so, even if the child is lactose intolerant, the breast milk from his/her mother would be best for that specific child.
Not true. I have heard stories of women who desperately wanted to breast feed but couldn't, because their child kept throwing it up/diarrhea because they were lactose intolerant. Breast milk is still milk. These women were very upset.
It's incredibly, incredibly rare for a healthy full term infant to be lactose intolerant... since their bodies actually make an enzyme specifically to break down the sugars in breast milk. Pre-term infants have a harder time with lactose, since their bodies haven't developed enough of the enzyme to break down the sugar, but their intolerance usually goes away as they approach their original due date. Once children enter into the toddler years, their bodies tend to drop production of the enzyme, and they begin to develop an intolerance to lactose... They say that over 80% of adults are lactose intolerant to a degree.. but this does not include Caucasians, as they're only 12% lactose intolerant as adults.
The problem babies often have with milk is the digestion of the protein, which in cows is different than people... So it can really affect a child if his mother is eating a lot of dairy... since the dairy protein gets transferred into her milk, making the baby colicky, vomit, and have diarrhea. A woman who's child is experiencing these problems should eliminate dairy products from her diet for at least three weeks to see if the symptoms get better or persist. (dairy includes milk, yogurt, cream, cheese, pudding, butter etc.)
It is incredibly unlikely that any infant has a natural aversion to breast milk, since milk is the only perfect food for any mammal infant. What's more likely, is that those mothers you heard of ate a lot of dairy, whose protein is difficult, at best, for infants to digest.
I have yet to hear of a woman who never ate any dairy, exclusively breast fed, and still had an infant exhibiting signs of protein/lactose intolerance. I'm sure it has happened, but it is incredibly rare, and is in no way an occurrence to base the proper diet for an infant off of.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Rarity is not the point here. I think the entire discussion of women not breast feeding in a disaster is an incredibly rare, nearly impossible situation, but hey, I'm still playing the game. And who said we were talking about healthy babies? Preemies are babies too.
Those mothers had their children tested for lactose intolerance, so no, it was not just a protein problem.

reply from: smom

Boss momma thank you for your nursing experience... precious! I took my hubby to the classes.. and.. for some demented reason he thought it would be a treat. Go figure. Anyway, Im soooo thankful that I brought him with me, because for some reason out of all his lovely flaws.... He always remembered to be supportive to me and was a helluva trooper through all these years. I was mightie impressed. The consultant was a VERY good teacher and she gave HIM a strong purpose-and he DID! I never expected it, but there were times that he was a boost or a strong place to lean on.
Liber-Its okay for you to hide away a starving baby? Im getting chills here.
It takes me to the situation where a guy wrecked his car in the pond and left his best friend to drown in the car alone and up and disappeared.
And an age old passage in the Bible that talks about how ALL things will be revealed and nothing will be hidden from the Lord. (in so many words...)
In my case. Kids first. I would do whatever I damn well could to protect children. Instantaneously! My kids or others! And also, I would be trying to get the hell out of the 'dangerous' position as much as humanly possible.
btw...what else were breasts made for but to feed the babies?

reply from: yoda

Yes, you are a "person" who would starve her newborn to death if you were not in the mood to nurse your child.

reply from: yoda

I'd be happy to tell you what I think of your answer if I ever see it.

reply from: BossMomma

Factually that is exactly why women have breasts and men do not, breasts were meant as a food source not a sexual asset, however not all women choose to see it that way. But I always wondered...why do men have nipples?

reply from: BossMomma

o.O That just gave me the wierdest mental image...thanks

reply from: scopia1982

I was perusing through some of the older posts. I thought breasts served a dual function? Both sexual and to nurse a child. Like the vagina its both serves a sexual function and to birth a baby.

reply from: BossMomma

Breasts are not a sexual body part as they do not aid in reproducing which is the biological purpose of sex.


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