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one brave young lady

sorry i can't post the rest, source dailymail

by: xnavy

'I was raped and left pregnant at 16... but I still love my baby'
By Angela Carless
Last updated at 9:30 AM on 09th August 2008
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Like so many teenage mums, Elizabeth Cameron doesn't like to talk much about the
father of her toddler daughter.
She shrugs when asked about him, and admits that when questioned about his
whereabouts - as people inevitably do - she likes to keep things vague.
'When new people ask, I say I have nothing to do with him - which is true,' she
says quietly. 'But I'm not sure yet what I will tell Phoebe herself when she is old
enough to ask.
'Hopefully, one day, I will get married, and then Phoebe will have a father and it
won't be such an issue.'
If only things were that easy. The truth is that little Phoebe will never want to know
the truth about the man who gave her life.
She was conceived on a cold December evening when Elizabeth - then a
16-year-old virgin - was dragged into the back of the van and raped.
All that Elizabeth will be able to tell Phoebe one day is that her father was a
stranger in a hooded top who forced himself upon her.
She has no idea of the man's age, ethnic background, even height, such was the
confusion of that evening. Indeed, he could be one of three possible individuals.
One of the few things that Elizabeth is sure of is that she was raped three times
that night, by three different men.
That Phoebe exists at all almost defies belief. Practically everyone who knew
exactly how Elizabeth had fallen pregnant - doctors, siblings, even her own father
- urged her to have an abortion as soon as possible.
The only person who pleaded with her to at least consider having the child was her
mother, Sarah.
Today, Elizabeth and Sarah are together to tell their remarkable story to the Mail.
Sitting in their lavish eight-bedroom, £1.5 million home in a picturesque village on
the South Coast, at first they seem like any doting mother and grandmother,
falling over themselves to share stories of the little girl of whom they are so proud.
'Even at 22 months, she can wrap me round her little finger,' admits Sarah, 53, who
owns a property leasing business. 'Having her in my life is such a joy. From the
first time I held her in my arms, I have had this fierce bond with her, a connection
which started even before she was born.
'She looks like me when I was her age, and I feel strongly that she was meant to
be a part of our family.'
Elizabeth, still only 19 and about to start university to train to be a primary school
teacher, is less vocal than her mother, but no less besotted.
'Everyone, save for mum, thought I should have an abortion,' she says. 'My dad
even made an appointment at the clinic, and they showed me the little blob on the
scan, I presume, to convince me that it was just a mass of cells and the whole
thing would be over quickly.
'But I couldn't go through with it. 'At school, my friends - most of whom didn't
even know about the rape - couldn't understand why anyone my age would want
to have a baby rather than an abortion.
'And the few I did tell about what had happened were even more horrified that I
would want to go through with the birth.
'But I did. And I don't regret it for a moment.
Every time I look at Phoebe, I know I made the right decision. I never wanted to
end my baby's life just because of how she came to be.'
To most women, the thought of carrying their rapist's baby would be unthinkable.
Elizabeth says that she, too, would once have shared that view.
To her amazement, though, the first sight of that 'mass of cells' on the screen
triggered waves of tenderness rather than revulsion.
'It was surprisingly easy to love her as she grew inside me, but I have to admit I
was scared my feelings would change when I saw her.
'During the pregnancy, I had nightmares about the attack and I worried myself
sick that seeing my baby would immediately bring on flashbacks of that night.
'But from the moment mum put her on my breast, there was no question we
belonged together.
'She did not remind me of that night, and I knew then that having her was more
important than what had happened.'
Very few people know the truth of how Phoebe came to exist. Unfortunately, in
their community, it is assumed that she is just another youngster who got pregnant
through carelessness, foolishness or deliberate willfulness.
'At college, one of my tutors even asked if I'd got pregnant deliberately so I could
get a council flat.'
Her mother shakes her head. 'Most people don't know the gory facts. To them, she
is just a silly girl who got herself pregnant.
'We had always been regular churchgoers in our community before this. But we
faced so many barbed comments from people at church that we stopped going
there and went somewhere else. Sometimes, it has felt like me and Elizabeth
against the rest of the world.'
Elizabeth's astonishing story began in December 2005, when an ordinary day at
college took a dreadfully violent turn.
'Everyone, except Mum, said I should have an abortion'
A shy, studious girl, known to prefer studying to going to clubs or discos, she had
spent the day with friends but was under instruction to be home for the family
meal.
Her mother Sarah, who was, as she puts it, 'doing my usual hectic Mum's taxi
routine', arranged to pick her up in a supermarket car park after collecting
Elizabeth's sister from a Christmas panto.
Unfortunately, Sarah was delayed by an hour, and her frantic phone calls to
Elizabeth's mobile went unanswered.
When she arrived at the car park, there was no sign of Elizabeth, so, thinking that
she must have caught the bus home, Sarah drove to the family home.
There, to her astonishment, she found Elizabeth in her bedroom, in floods of tears
on the floor.
'She was dishevelled and crying her eyes out,' Sarah remembers. 'I panicked,
asked her what was wrong but she couldn't tell me.
When I tried to put my arms around her, she pushed me away. She just kept on
crying, making me feel completely helpless.
'At first, I wondered if she'd had a falling out with friends, maybe over a boy we
knew nothing about.'
Sarah was unable to coax any information out of her daughter and the next day
she found her similarly tearful and withdrawn.
Elizabeth says now that she was simply in shock about what she had been through.
'I just couldn't bear to speak about it, not even to mum,' she says.
'I didn't tell anyone because I thought they would think it was my fault, that I was
somehow asking for it. I was so ashamed and embarrassed by what had happened,
I couldn't even say the word "rape".'
It was, in fact, several days before Elizabeth cracked and blurted out what had
happened.
'She was sobbing. She told me these three men in a van had approached her and
threatened her. Then they forced her into the van. I was devastated as she said it.
Even now, it is hard to talk about.
'As a parent, you try to protect your child, and the thought of my quiet and studious
young daughter being violated is so painful. Especially because it was my fault: I
should have been there on time.'
That night, Elizabeth was adamant that she did not want her father James, 57, an
advertising executive, to know what had happened, but her mother simply could
not condone any such cover-up.
'I told her the men who did this were dangerous - that we had to go to the police.
I was just horrified that she could even think of not reporting it.'

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Yeah, you missed the part about Mummy and Daddy living in a $3 million home. She was lucky to have a support system. Most young rape victims don't. England also has National Health Insurance.

reply from: BossMomma

It damn sure justifies aborting a pregnancy that was forced on you.

reply from: Cecilia

"I guess some people will go to any length to attempt to justify acting on their own desires even at the expense of others..."...says the Forcedbirther.
That is exactly what antiabortionchoice people do. Justify their own desires at the expense of others.

reply from: jujujellybean

yes, but 'our own desires' do not involve killing a baby, now do they?

reply from: BossMomma

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.

reply from: Cecilia

"I guess some people will go to any length to attempt to justify acting on their own desires even at the expense of others..."...says the Forcedbirther.
That is exactly what antiabortionchoice people do. Justify their own desires at the expense of others.
Society has agreed that it is wrong to needlessly harm others. Is it "wrong" to act on the desire to protect the innocent? Is that comparable to acting on the desire to harm others in your view? You don't like to answer questions, do you? It's so much easier to spout propaganda and make dishonest implications as ad hominem arguments, isn't it?
I do not adhere a quality of innocent to a fetus.
Your second question is therefore irrelevant.
Every question you have asked me I have answered.
I have stated facts. I am honest. I have not made ad hominem arguments. That would be attacking you personally, instead I attack your opinions.
And that sounds like a strawman.

reply from: Cecilia

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Not really. The desire of the antiabortionchoicers doesn't necessarily imply that women are only valued by their uterus. It does imply that they are advocates for forced birth, but as a whole not much else. Individuals may think women should be brood mares but that does not describe the desires of all antiabortionchoicers.

reply from: Cecilia

Do you truly fail to see that the end result of your agenda is forced birth? Or would you just rather swipe that under the rug and pretend it's not part of the issue?
I think you are willfully denying what your political recipe turns out in the oven-advocating forced birth.
I changed this post because I wanted to point out that what you wrote and is quoted here was in response to this post of mine:
Not really. The desire of the antiabortionchoicers doesn't necessarily imply that women are only valued by their uterus. It does imply that they are advocates for forced birth, but as a whole not much else. Individuals may think women should be brood mares but that does not describe the desires of all antiabortionchoicers.
Did you get this message mixed up? I don't get why you wrote what you did in response.

reply from: Cecilia

It is unethical for you to determine the ethics of other's reproductive choices.
And here we go on the merry go round ...
I have NEVER said your motivation is soley to force birth, but it is the end result of your agenda. What motivates you to be antiabortionchoice is a different monster, but your agenda ends up with advocating for forced parturition. It's not the pretty shade of your politics, but it is reality.

reply from: Cecilia

Do you truly fail to see that the end result of your agenda is forced birth? Or would you just rather swipe that under the rug and pretend it's not part of the issue?
I think you are willfully denying what your political recipe turns out in the oven-advocating forced birth.
Lol! "Willful denial" should be your middle name. The issue is whether it is ethical for you to kill your offspring, under what circumstances, and why. Are you sufficiently competent to address it, or will you simply continue to repeat the same irrelevant, logically fallacious drivel?
I answered it pal. Read the above post before you go knocking around like a swaggering bully.

reply from: Cecilia

It is unethical for you to determine the ethics of other's reproductive choices.
And here we go on the merry go round ...
I have NEVER said your motivation is soley to force birth, but it is the end result of your agenda. What motivates you to be antiabortionchoice is a different monster, but your agenda ends up with advocating for forced parturition. It's not the pretty shade of your politics, but it is reality.
I do not advocate forcing any woman to give birth, and even if I did, how does that justify a woman being allowed to kill her offspring?
And the "end result" of your agenda is a dead human being. How "pretty" is that? Feel free to get down to logically defending that position any time now...
We're only going in circles because you refuse to accept the fact that I have thoroughly addressed this "argument," and you refuse to address the real issue here...
If you advocate for abortion to be abolished, then women will no longer have the option of abortion, and they will effectively be forced to give birth. That is the end result of your advocation.
You will probably come back with some emoting instead of acknowledging, 'yes, yes, that is what happens'. You could even be a tad wistful about it and I would sympathize.

reply from: Cecilia

The first part is partially true. If abortion is legally abolished, women will lose the legal option to abort. I can not acknowledge the second part, since it is not true. This would not "force" any woman to give birth. She would not even be required to conceive! If she does conceive, abortion prohibition would only prohibit her from killing her offspring. It would not logically effect whether the pregnancy naturally ends in live birth or miscarriage.
In order to end your silly game, let us assume for the sake of argument that abortion would "force women to give birth." Do you assert that it is unethical to indirectly "force" someone to do something if that is the inevitable result of forbidding them to kill their offspring?
Of course your don't acknowledge the second part. It's the unpleasant side effect that antiabortionchoicers squirm around about.
I do not play silly games with women's lives. Antiabortionchoicers seem inclined to play "Life" with them, however.
I also don't assume for the sake of argument things that are already true. "Let's assume for the sake of argument that we will die".

reply from: Cecilia

Do you truly fail to see that the end result of your agenda is forced birth? Or would you just rather swipe that under the rug and pretend it's not part of the issue?
I think you are willfully denying what your political recipe turns out in the oven-advocating forced birth.
Lol! "Willful denial" should be your middle name. The issue is whether it is ethical for you to kill your offspring, under what circumstances, and why. Are you sufficiently competent to address it, or will you simply continue to repeat the same irrelevant, logically fallacious drivel?
I answered it pal. Read the above post before you go knocking around like a swaggering bully.
Oh, you think simply declaring it to be unethical is an argument? I assumed that, since you support legal abortion on demand, that was your position...
Now prove the assertion is true, but first, define the term. Define "reproductive choices," then we can determine whether your position is logically consistent...
Ethics, or philosophies, are personal and not universal. You have already mentioned the concept of innocence of a fetus,and I know when someone brings that up there is no interest for me in engaging in debate with them. It's like arguing...religion?
Since ethics are not fruitfully debatable, I will refrain from defining "reproductive choices". I will also refrain from defining "reproductive choices" because you demanded it.
Now I have given you the open door to come back with "cop out" or some other comment that will imply the same. It is fortunate that I do not need to convince you that I am right; I know I am right.

reply from: BossMomma

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Not really. The desire of the antiabortionchoicers doesn't necessarily imply that women are only valued by their uterus. It does imply that they are advocates for forced birth, but as a whole not much else. Individuals may think women should be brood mares but that does not describe the desires of all antiabortionchoicers.
I was refering to the pro-fetal-lifers on this board, I know many reasonable lifers IRL but this board seems full of fanatics, the fetus must be born at all cost or they just aren't happy. To hell with what mom is going through, to hell with the circumstances the born child might endure, to hell with whether or not the fetus is even compatable with life. As long as it's born naturally.

reply from: BossMomma

Do you truly fail to see that the end result of your agenda is forced birth? Or would you just rather swipe that under the rug and pretend it's not part of the issue?
I think you are willfully denying what your political recipe turns out in the oven-advocating forced birth.
Lol! "Willful denial" should be your middle name. The issue is whether it is ethical for you to kill your offspring, under what circumstances, and why. Are you sufficiently competent to address it, or will you simply continue to repeat the same irrelevant, logically fallacious drivel?
I answered it pal. Read the above post before you go knocking around like a swaggering bully.
CP Did the same crap with me, arguing in circles until any point was lost in the mud slinging.

reply from: galen

i can empathise with this young woman, as my first born is a child of rape... every time i look at him i see a wonderful caring person who deserved to be born as much as any wanted or planned child. How can anyone look at my son and then say that rape is a justifiable excuse for murder is beyond me and him.
i am proud of my son ... and we don't talk about his biological father... he has a REAL father... my husband.
This young woman in tyhe story has, as far as i can tell, a good hold on herself and seems to have recovered reasonably from her rape. Not so the many women who have an abortion after thier rape. These women who abort tend not to recover nearly as quickly from thier trauma... abortion , after all is a second violation done usually at a time when a woman is still trying to recover from thier attack.
God bless her and her child and may they find peace and happiness in thier lives together.

reply from: Cecilia

Excuse me? When you were unable to address my arguments, you simply started a ridiculous semantic rant, and seemed unable to grasp the most simple concepts, simply insisting that basically, I was wrong about everything because I was convicted of a violent crime about 30 years ago.
You sound as if when someone disagrees with your opinion they are "playing silly games" or on "a ridiculous semantic rant" or "unable to grasp the most simple concepts".
And these comments sound like you are attacking the person- actually insulting them, instead of responding to their views.

reply from: BossMomma

And that is wonderful that you could see past the rape and just love the child, I was a child of rape too and my mother kept me despite her family's advice to abort. I'm very close to my mother even though I'm the spitting image of my sperm doner (we don't refer to him as a father). However, not all women should be expected to make the same CHOICE. Just because you could do it doesn't mean that the next woman can do it.

reply from: Cecilia

I am interested only in your ethics here, not "general ethics," and I made no demands, only asked questions, and it was perfectly reasonable for me to request that you clarify your meaning by defining the terms you introduce.
Ethics can certainly be "fruitfully debated" by testing the consistency of your position based on your ethics as you define them. I know that your position is not logically consistent based on your own standards and if you are truly confident that you are "right," you have absolutely nothing to fear in allowing me to examine your position. Are you afraid to tell me where you stand? Why should that be?
I am flattered that you are interested in my ethics, but I doubt your motivation is actually to learn what they are. Additionally, since you claim you "already know" facets of my ethics what point would there be in continuing with you. You will take me in circles on a quest to preen your feathers instead of actually having a conversation. You have already misrepresented me twice. In reality, that's the offline world, anyone who does that puts their reliability in question with me and I keep them at arm's length.

reply from: Cecilia

Rape is such an incredible violation. The treatment that follows this physical, emotional, and sexual assault should be individualized. That means that the victim and their treatment team need to work together to determine the course of treatment, not antiabortionchoicers, religiously motivated individuals, judges, lawyers, or the general populace.

reply from: Rhiannontex

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Okay, I have seen this claim time and time again and I for one am tired of such nonsense. This is NOT "The Handmaid's Tale"! No one is demanding that women go out and get pregnant every year and do absolutely nothing else. There is a huge huge difference between having the status of a brood mare and being expected to be a mature, responsible adult who takes responsibility for her own actions and doesn't make someone else pay the price for what she has done.

reply from: Cecilia

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Okay, I have seen this claim time and time again and I for one am tired of such nonsense. This is NOT "The Handmaid's Tale"! No one is demanding that women go out and get pregnant every year and do absolutely nothing else. There is a huge huge difference between having the status of a brood mare and being expected to be a mature, responsible adult who takes responsibility for her own actions and doesn't make someone else pay the price for what she has done.
I agree that antiabortionchoice activists do not necessarily devalue women to the status of brood mares; that would be an individual who only sees a woman's worth if she procreates.
I also agree that women should be mature responsible adults and take responsibility for their own actions.
I find it disingenuous when antiabortionchoicers imply that they only responsible decision is to give birth.

reply from: Cecilia

Excuse me? When you were unable to address my arguments, you simply started a ridiculous semantic rant, and seemed unable to grasp the most simple concepts, simply insisting that basically, I was wrong about everything because I was convicted of a violent crime about 30 years ago.
You sound as if when someone disagrees with your opinion they are "playing silly games" or on "a ridiculous semantic rant" or "unable to grasp the most simple concepts".
And these comments sound like you are attacking the person- actually insulting them, instead of responding to their views.
Did you actually read the thread in question, or have you formed your opinion in ignorance? Do you even know what thread we are referring to?
I read your insulting comments to the other poster just now. No further research is needed.

reply from: Cecilia

And yet you continue to respond to me, but simply refuse to discuss the details of your own position. It is obvious to me that you are simply afraid to debate me. You seem to be a "one trick pony," and the only trick you know seems to be attempting to portray prolifers as having a misogynistic agenda that involves controlling/oppressing women, which is quite dishonest...
I have not attempted to portray antibortionchoicers as having a misogynistic agenda that involves controlling or oppressing women.
That is now three times you misrepresented me.
You have also created a strawman argument. You now expect me to defend a position I have not taken and you cannot support (the 'afraid' comment.)

reply from: Cecilia

I merely responded to her accusation, implying that I had derailed our discussion. Everything I said was true, and stated in defense against an accusation that was not. You are simply looking for excuses not to debate me. BM actually argued that possession of a U.S. government issued SS card made us "persons," and that no human being can be a person without one, among other ridiculous contentions...And she initiated a campaign of ad hominem attacks as well. I think I was more than kind in my response, but if you need additional justification to avoid debating me, I understand...
I don't need "excuses" to not debate you, anymore than you can justify personal attacks.

reply from: Cecilia

Schoolage bullies were not very successful with me, either.

reply from: Cecilia

I'm repeating myself because the focus of this thread has gone far away.

reply from: Cecilia

Would this be a "personal attack?"
Why, do you identify with that statement somehow?

reply from: Cecilia

Would this be a "personal attack?"
Why, do you identify with that statement somehow?
Were you referring to someone else? I thought it safe to assume that, since only two of us are involved in this discussion at this time, your insult was directed at me...Was I mistaken? At any rate, I did not ask if it was an attack directed at me, did I? You obviously made the same logical assumption as I, that the two of us are speaking to and of each other at this time. The implication that my question might imply that I agreed with your childish accusation was dishonest, however.
It is as if you have your fingers stuck in your ears, wiggling, and taunting with "nyah, nyah, afraid to debate me, nyah nyah". I am not receptive to this behavior.

reply from: galen

_________________________________________
Let me clarify that my position on this issue comes from the fact that women who have an abortion after rape heal much more slowly from the rape, as the abortion is viewed by the psyche as another violation.
Imagine what women who are raped several times by diffrent people go through and it may help explain what goes on. I've yet to meet a woman in counseling who has said that her abortion saved her life or made her any better.....these women are shattered by each act.

reply from: galen

And that is wonderful that you could see past the rape and just love the child, I was a child of rape too and my mother kept me despite her family's advice to abort. I'm very close to my mother even though I'm the spitting image of my sperm doner (we don't refer to him as a father). However, not all women should be expected to make the same CHOICE. Just because you could do it doesn't mean that the next woman can do it.
___________________________________________________
Especially not when o many people force the abortion issue to this topic. We are horrified ( rightly so ) by the act of rape, as a society. Most of the populace would like it to go back under the rug where it was swept for years... they CERTAINLY don't want to be reminded of it with all those little rape kids running about and being happy... it is so sinister...
Women who have an abortion after rape are far more likely to take longer to heal from the violations than women who have the child and either adopt it out or keep it if they are so inclined.....i have yet to meet a woman in counseling who regretted having her child... i have met more who regretted taking a life, and believe me... no matter what they say in public... many of those women cry to thier therapists in private for years.
Its time to get rid of the stigma associated with rape and the children it creates.

reply from: Cecilia

_________________________________________
Let me clarify that my position on this issue comes from the fact that women who have an abortion after rape heal much more slowly from the rape, as the abortion is viewed by the psyche as another violation.
Imagine what women who are raped several times by diffrent people go through and it may help explain what goes on. I've yet to meet a woman in counseling who has said that her abortion saved her life or made her any better.....these women are shattered by each act.
I said this in another thread, but if you are seeing women for counseling you are more likely to get the client who feels this way about their abortion. You aren't going to see clients who do not take issue with their abortion for abortion counseling.
I would not prohibit abortion in rape cases because some women (I highly doubt it is every single one) heal more slowly if they abort. I would leave that up to the woman.
The women that come to you for counseling; do they regret their abortion, or the pregnancy, or the entire situation? I would think it would be difficult to delineate between the 'events'.

reply from: Cecilia

Absolutely. I would like to see women who were victims not feel that they need to hide their faces in the media; they are the victims. They have nothing to be ashamed of.
How can this be accomplished?

reply from: galen

We do rape counseling as mentioned in the other thread, we also do several other kinds.
However on the specifics of rape, mine are not the only eyes who see these women and the opinion of most therapists who deal with this ( that i know of) are that the violation that takes place during the rape and during a rape victim's abortion are percived in both instances as an attack... there is no relief, and little closure for many more years than with the women who give birth to thier children.
Abortion after rape is given no special consideration by the doctors( i use the term lightly) as much of the time they approach it with a cynical stance. They get so many women who cry rape as a way to justify why they are aborting that they tend not to belive anyone who says they were. These women who undergo abortion are treated by the clinics with very little compassion ... its just one more procedure , and they hope to never see you agian, but realise they very well may.
Abortionists are not known to be the most compassionate people on the planet... to send a rape victim who needs kindness, understanding, and empowerment to one of these places... for 'treatment' is in my opinion ( and others in the medical community) just as barbaric as the original act of rape was. Who will go with them ... especially if they have told no one of thier attack? Who drives them home? who sits with them while they cry?.. much of the time no one...the woman takes a taxi or bus to and from the procedure, hides in her home for recovery and prays no one has to find out what she has done. If her physician knows about it then in a few months when her depression does not abate then they MIGHT find a place like ours or a private therapist who gets to work for years gluing the pieces back together ... and many times he never does. The rates of suicide are higher for these women as are the general rates of depression that lasts for over 5 years.
Contrast to the women who actually give birth to these children, they recover at a quicker rate... they have less depression, and they tend not to commit suicide in the next 5 years. They have 1 trauma to overcome not 2 and the likelyhood of them finding thier way through thier pain is greater.

reply from: Rhiannontex

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Okay, I have seen this claim time and time again and I for one am tired of such nonsense. This is NOT "The Handmaid's Tale"! No one is demanding that women go out and get pregnant every year and do absolutely nothing else. There is a huge huge difference between having the status of a brood mare and being expected to be a mature, responsible adult who takes responsibility for her own actions and doesn't make someone else pay the price for what she has done.
I agree that antiabortionchoice activists do not necessarily devalue women to the status of brood mares; that would be an individual who only sees a woman's worth if she procreates.
I also agree that women should be mature responsible adults and take responsibility for their own actions.
I find it disingenuous when antiabortionchoicers imply that they only responsible decision is to give birth.
Tell me, please, how aborting a healthy unborn can in any way whatsoever be considered a responsible act? Are you one of those who believes in the premise that because the unborn MIGHT have an emotionally painful life it's more merciful and responsible to have an abortion? If so, I must point that aborting for what ifs and maybes is false mercy.
An example of false mercy: I believe that in the next few days you're going to be in a HORRIBLE car crash, one that will leave you trapped for hours in excruciating pain and leave you a paraplegic for the rest of your life. Morever, the medical expenses will take every last cent and possession you have, leaving you utterly destitute. Therefore the only kind and merciful thing is for me to kill you right now to spare you such possible suffering. Do you see how utterly stupid such reasoning is?
You want to be really responsible? Don't kill your unborn because somehow the time is just not right for you. YOU chose to have sex. YOU chose to put yourself in the position of possibly getting pregnant. It is NOT responsible to make your unborn pay the price for a CHOICE YOU MADE.

reply from: galen

Absolutely. I would like to see women who were victims not feel that they need to hide their faces in the media; they are the victims. They have nothing to be ashamed of.
How can this be accomplished?
__________________________________
To be honest...education.. we have to change a whole societal viewpoint that feels some women in some way 'ask for it'.
And that goes for the men who are raped also.
Rape must be treated in the same way you treat premediated murder... lifelong incarceration( i am against CP)...if a teen knows he could get life for forcing his girlfriend then he will think twice, and the rest of 'em can be sent away for good. JMPO.

reply from: Cecilia

I am getting from your post that women who have abortions after rape in these instances are not making this decision of their own free will. This is of course not supported by advocates of all reproductive choices such as myself.
Again, though, it sounds like your clients are referred to you because they are having regrets about their abortion, therefore making the population skewed towards seeing women who are having difficulty with their abortion.
Since abortion is legal, women are free to make decisions and control their lives. After rape, I would think that control issues would be a large factor in someone's therapy. If abortion were illegal, I wonder if women would feel either relief that they did not have to make a decision and allow the law to do it for them, orif they would become intensely resentful and suicidal because they do not have that option. If I were raped, I would have an abortion, legal or no.
I edited for a terminology change. Why doesn't the message board give a space to explain why one edited?

reply from: Cecilia

No, I don't believe that. I am not a fortune teller.
Yes, you are correct. You could have been spared all that typing if you had not made an assumption about my reasoning.
Factually, taking responsibility means doing something. To not take responsibility means to do nothing. You have attached your own opinion to the concept.
I do not advocate for women to do nothing about their pregnancies, and I am sure you do not either.
One last thing, earlier you referenced false mercy as being "utterly stupid" and I agree since no one can tell the future. Along the same lines consent to sex does not mean consent to give birth. If you consented to ride in the car you referenced above, that does not mean you consent to no treatment post-crash. You are welcome to consider it that way for yourself, but I will do everything I can to avoid giving birth.

reply from: galen

In a sense many women are not making the choice of thier own free will, society tends to look at them in horror if they speak of the rape let alone having a child produced by one. if and when they do mention the rape ... usually about the time they find out they are pregnant, everyone just assumes they will abort and if they bring up continueing the pregnancy they are treated harshly. If they never bring up the rape they are treated like outcasts who got pregnant by being careless...'only the bad girls got pg and kept thier babies'
I have been around enough raped women who have aborted, not just people referred to me, but people on the web, at confrences, in my own therapy groups ( i was raped as a young woman, i kept my child). I have yet to meet one who said to me she was happy she aborted, even when they do not know my son was concieved in that way. Recovery is hard enough without adding another violation on top of it.
I wonder have you ever seen an abortion take place, or had one yourself? Its a terribly painful process, and many women can not afford pain controll... its not cheap, and insurance almost never covers it.
The shelter sees abused women, some are pregnant some are not , many have had abortions, many wanted thier children. It is a rare time that we do not have many diffrent types of women in there....
As my experience come not only from being in the shelter, but in the university where i teach and my own personal counseling sessions while i was going through my own personal recovery, i do think that i have a fairly well rounded view on this.
Believe me i too was of the thought that should i ever be raped i would never be able to live with 'that man's baby'. And when faced with that exact problem, i prooved myself wrong. It is amazing what you can do when faced with a particular situation.
Abortion will maore than likely never be illegal after a prooven rape... too many people think its the right answer for women. Empowerment comes not from being set on a cold unfeeling table to have yet another violation preformed on you, empowerment comes from learning that this too shall pass, and i am still a good person, who deserves life. And my child did too. Empowerment comes from knowing that you did not let that inhuman man to controll you, to have you live in fear , and shame. But rather that you were able to go on with your life, and thier is a bit of proof in the world, with you or not, that shows you did exsist and went on. To many of these women are invisible, the contents of thier womb discarded, and thier pain hidden... for the rapist THAT knowledge is the ulimate controll. The unlimate empowerment is going on and being happy.

reply from: galen

No, I don't believe that. I am not a fortune teller.
Yes, you are correct. You could have been spared all that typing if you had not made an assumption about my reasoning.
Factually, taking responsibility means doing something. To not take responsibility means to do nothing. You have attached your own opinion to the concept.
I do not advocate for women to do nothing about their pregnancies, and I am sure you do not either.
One last thing, earlier you referenced false mercy as being "utterly stupid" and I agree since no one can tell the future. Along the same lines consent to sex does not mean consent to give birth. If you consented to ride in the car you referenced above, that does not mean you consent to no treatment post-crash. You are welcome to consider it that way for yourself, but I will do everything I can to avoid giving birth.
____________________________________________
Birth controll is inexpensive, and if you want it sterilization can be accomplished.

reply from: Cecilia

Yes, I agree with your statement.

reply from: Cecilia

Absolutely. I would like to see women who were victims not feel that they need to hide their faces in the media; they are the victims. They have nothing to be ashamed of.
How can this be accomplished?
__________________________________
To be honest...education.. we have to change a whole societal viewpoint that feels some women in some way 'ask for it'.
And that goes for the men who are raped also.
Rape must be treated in the same way you treat premediated murder... lifelong incarceration( i am against CP)...if a teen knows he could get life for forcing his girlfriend then he will think twice, and the rest of 'em can be sent away for good. JMPO.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more.
What is "CP"?

reply from: galen

it really is the only fair alternative...

reply from: galen

Capitol Punishment...death penalty. Just have rape prisions and let them wear themselves out.

reply from: Cecilia

This is wrong. Not your post, but people's views. And it is not the support a pregnant rape victim needs.
I agree, but view forced birth as another violation.
Many surgeries are painful, this is no reason to outlaw one of them.
I see the problem not that abortion is painful, but that insurance companies will not cover the pain control, and that there are not more alternatives to paying for abortion. I believe that insurance companies limit their coverage on abortion for moral reasons, which have no application in a legal surgerical procedure.
I do not think it is the right answer after rape. I do not know the right answer after rape; only the victim does.
Empowerment comes from the ability to control. Unempowered women have no control over their lives. I also disagree that the rapist's knowledge of their victim's womb being discarded is the ultimate control. I would broaden out and say that the rapists' knowledge of the woman being forced one way or the other is the ultimate control.
And I am beyond certain that if I became pregnant because of rape, I would abort.

reply from: Cecilia

"Don't drop the soap".

reply from: galen

This is wrong. Not your post, but people's views. And it is not the support a pregnant rape victim needs.
I agree, but view forced birth as another violation.
Many surgeries are painful, this is no reason to outlaw one of them.
I see the problem not that abortion is painful, but that insurance companies will not cover the pain control, and that there are not more alternatives to paying for abortion. I believe that insurance companies limit their coverage on abortion for moral reasons, which have no application in a legal surgerical procedure.
I do not think it is the right answer after rape. I do not know the right answer after rape; only the victim does.
Empowerment comes from the ability to control. Unempowered women have no control over their lives. I also disagree that the rapist's knowledge of their victim's womb being discarded is the ultimate control. I would broaden out and say that the rapists' knowledge of the woman being forced one way or the other is the ultimate control.
And I am beyond certain that if I became pregnant because of rape, I would abort.
______________________________________________________
ok ... and think on this one a day or two before you answer...
your best friend comes to you in confidence and tells you she was raped, and then tells you she is pregnant... what truely would you do?
*****************************************************
psychologically your opinion is the same as many people, and unfortuantely in case after case i have not found this to be true. Empowerment comes from knowing you are a better person than the monster... it is the building block of this type of therapy. You can not know that if you are carrying around the knowledge that you killed your child... and face it.. no one tells you congratualtions its an embryo( well maybe a few misguided IVF docs) they say its a baby. When that knowledge is placed on a rape victim... she does not say OMG i can't have his zygote!..she says OMG i can't have his baby!... and its all over... some part of her brain sees it as a child..one that will grow and become her rapists baby... and there lies the problem. She will ALWAYS have that in her head. and her previous trauma is relived and made to grow by the abortion... she KNOWS she was controlling something else as she was controlled... and it makes her feel worse, especially because she knows how controll made her feel.
Did you know that many women who are raped stop controlling ANYTHING in thier lives, and others become very OCD like?
As far as pain controll... unfortuately unless you could afford general anesthetic, you won't get any help. Versed only is a mild amnesic, and nothing else seems to work...no AB clinic s use GA as it requires the fees etc, for an anestesiologist and no one wants to knock rates that high, it might drive off thier clients.
No insurance company likes to pay for what it considerers an elective procedure... especially if they do not cover pregnancy to begin with. Therefor i think pain controll is an issue that they feel is not in thier best intrest.
*******************************************
never say never it may come back to bite you... and i would not wish the experience on anyone...

reply from: galen

"Don't drop the soap".

reply from: yoda

No, not at all. You could shoot your way out of a hostage situation and kill a lot of innocent people, would that be "taking responsibility"? No, taking responsibility simply means assuming authorship of a fact or a situation.
"Acting responsibly" might be a better phrase for the abortion debate. And that of course would be a subjective judgment, and depend upon what each individual considers a responsible action.
For me, it is never a responsible action to kill another innocent human being as a "solution" to your own problems. Killing innocent people causes more problems, it does not solve problems.

reply from: Rhiannontex

Cecilia, I was going to point out the flaw in your definition of taking responsibility but Yoda beat me to it. I was going to use the example of burning down the house of someone who cheated me out of thousands of dollars. That would be taking action, but would it really be responsible?
As for my speech about mercy, I have seen that argument put forth ad nauseam, I apologize if that is NOT your reasoning behind taking responsibility. But now I must ask, since it has been pointed out to you that merely taking an action is not taking responsibility, what IS your reasoning?

reply from: Cecilia

I would listen to her. Ask her questions. Help her determine what she wants by no coercion of mine. I would support her search for education on this matter. I am licensed therapist, I would turn into 'therapist' mode. I would hold her hand at birth, or drive her to the abortion clinic.
Yes. That is why I support whatever the victim desires, be it birth, adoption, or abortion.
Yes.
I know an RN at a clinic who provides general anethesia. Our local clinic also offers GA. It is privately funded. I do not know about our local PP.

reply from: Cecilia

If that is the case, than is not assuming ownership of your pregnancy 'taking responsibility'?
I can agree with that.

reply from: Cecilia

Please see my reply to yoda.

reply from: galen

I would listen to her. Ask her questions. Help her determine what she wants by no coercion of mine. I would support her search for education on this matter. I am licensed therapist, I would turn into 'therapist' mode. I would hold her hand at birth, or drive her to the abortion clinic.
Yes. That is why I support whatever the victim desires, be it birth, adoption, or abortion.
Yes.
I know an RN at a clinic who provides general anethesia. Our local clinic also offers GA. It is privately funded. I do not know about our local PP.
_________________________________________________
i'm answering in reverse formation...
As for GA ask her also what it costs as an add on to the procedure...my lowest cost i've ever been told was an extra 500 cash. Up front no sliding scale etc. Usually it seems to range somewhere around 800.00.
Would yu as a therapist also support a woman who wanted to kill herself because of the situation? In my opinion that is what you do when yu don't tell a woman about the extra years she could be tacking onto her therapy by taking the risk of abortion... every woman is an individual, i will stop short of saying that no woman was ever helped by an abortion after rape... but of the general population of us who get pregnant by the attack... i have yet to see one.
I've also not met a therapist who has seen anyone get but a short lived response of relief, which was then compounded by guilt, misery, and self loathing.
Will you still be her therapist 5-10 years later when she is screaming at you with guilt in her eyes... with the whole 'why didn't you tell me speach?'

reply from: yoda

Hey, instead of aborting children of rape, why not send them to prison for life for "violating their mothers", or some other trumped up charge?

reply from: Rhiannontex

If that is the case, than is not assuming ownership of your pregnancy 'taking responsibility'?
I can agree with that.
Again, no. Mere "ownership" does not imply responsibility. If you own a dog and don't feed and water it or give it shelter, but instead tie it up to a tree and let it die of thirst and/or starvation, or beat it regularly, or make a fighting dog out of it, that's not responsibility. By the same token, owning a perfectly healthy dog and taking it out and shooting it for no good reason is also not responsible behavior.

reply from: yoda

That depends on a couple of things. For one, whether it was consensual sex or not, and for another exactly what you mean by "assuming ownership of your pregnancy". Do you mean to claim that you own the baby inside you, so that gives you the right to destroy it?

reply from: yoda

Excellent points. So far, we have no clue why Cecillia supports elective abortion.

reply from: galen

Hey, instead of aborting children of rape, why not send them to prison for life for "violating their mothers", or some other trumped up charge?
________________________________________________-
I was talking about the men and women who rape... not the kids yoda....what is wrongwith you?!?!

reply from: yoda

Ummm.... Mary...... ???? Babies cannot "rape" anyone, don't you know?
I do reserve the right to use sarcasm on occasion, ya know?

reply from: galen

sorry its a pretty touchy unfunny subject w/ me..

reply from: BossMomma

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Okay, I have seen this claim time and time again and I for one am tired of such nonsense. This is NOT "The Handmaid's Tale"! No one is demanding that women go out and get pregnant every year and do absolutely nothing else. There is a huge huge difference between having the status of a brood mare and being expected to be a mature, responsible adult who takes responsibility for her own actions and doesn't make someone else pay the price for what she has done.
For what she has done? In this case we are refering to a rape victim. What has she done? In this instance she chose to give birth but should that be the only option for the thousands of women raped each year? To demand that these women give birth, to remove any choice from them reduces them to the status of an animal IMO.

reply from: galen

No it help prevent them from enduring yet another torture by thier assailent...
do you suppose the abortion procedure is a begnign one? or that most rape victims are even able to afford the versed ( or in the case of 1 or 2 clinics GA)...and for that matter what about those who can not bear to report the rape... no victim services for them... no sireee.. they get to suffer in silence.
Sorry BM you do not know of what you speak on this one.

reply from: BossMomma

No, your desires reduce women to the status of brood mares by implying that we are valued only by the contents of our uterus.
Okay, I have seen this claim time and time again and I for one am tired of such nonsense. This is NOT "The Handmaid's Tale"! No one is demanding that women go out and get pregnant every year and do absolutely nothing else. There is a huge huge difference between having the status of a brood mare and being expected to be a mature, responsible adult who takes responsibility for her own actions and doesn't make someone else pay the price for what she has done.
I agree that antiabortionchoice activists do not necessarily devalue women to the status of brood mares; that would be an individual who only sees a woman's worth if she procreates.
I also agree that women should be mature responsible adults and take responsibility for their own actions.
I find it disingenuous when antiabortionchoicers imply that they only responsible decision is to give birth.
Tell me, please, how aborting a healthy unborn can in any way whatsoever be considered a responsible act? Are you one of those who believes in the premise that because the unborn MIGHT have an emotionally painful life it's more merciful and responsible to have an abortion? If so, I must point that aborting for what ifs and maybes is false mercy.
An example of false mercy: I believe that in the next few days you're going to be in a HORRIBLE car crash, one that will leave you trapped for hours in excruciating pain and leave you a paraplegic for the rest of your life. Morever, the medical expenses will take every last cent and possession you have, leaving you utterly destitute. Therefore the only kind and merciful thing is for me to kill you right now to spare you such possible suffering. Do you see how utterly stupid such reasoning is?
You want to be really responsible? Don't kill your unborn because somehow the time is just not right for you. YOU chose to have sex. YOU chose to put yourself in the position of possibly getting pregnant. It is NOT responsible to make your unborn pay the price for a CHOICE YOU MADE.
We are refering to a rape victim in this thread, do try to follow the scenario. We are not refering to women impregnated by consentual sex, we are talking about women forcibly impregnated and savagely violated.
In the event of your horrible car crash, I have signed a DNR, if I am incapable of living without machines and life support it is my choice to be allowed to pass with dignity, does that answer your question?

reply from: galen

BTW if your signed DNR is not with you when a team arrives federal law says they must rescusuitate you... also if you are pregnant many states do not allow a DNR except with the consent of your husband or SO upon the verification f brain death...
sorry you probably need to get a better look at the laws that govern medical personnell and DNR in your afrea... its never as cut and dry as most people think.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't have a husband, my decisions are purely my own. I understand the laws regarding DNR and in the event that I cannot survive without extreme measures none will be taken.

reply from: BossMomma

We'll let that be your Assumption since I know your pro-fetal blinders prevent you froim seeing past what you supposedly have coming through your center, if such a place really exists. Many women feel relief after an abortion, even planned parenthood offers GA and PP works on a sliding scale to help women. The reason many victims don't report rape is because of the shame and social stigma associated with the crime, I feel for rape victims and urge them to open up about it to authorities.

reply from: galen

ME blinders... dear you REALLY need to get a bit more education on this subject... don't believe everything that the media and your job feeds you.
Show me a woman who feels relief after an abortion,... and especially 1 after rape.
I have never found one...
believe me if i thought it was in a rape victim's best intrest to abort after the rape i would fight for it tooth and nail...but its just not.
And as far as me following ANY agenda or fitting into ANY hole ...you obviously don't know me too well... so why not ask around here and see how many of the 'pro-life rules' i follow and how many i break on a daily basis.
go ahead.. be free.....
ask away, you might learn a thing or 3 .

reply from: galen

I don't have a husband, my decisions are purely my own. I understand the laws regarding DNR and in the event that I cannot survive without extreme measures none will be taken.
______________________________________________-
your statements on this subject proove otherwise... take my advise on this one... get an attorny to make the necessary adjustments to you DNR now that you are pregnant... or you may find yourself on a table somwhere being and 'incubator' for your kid.

reply from: yoda

Wow.... that's just too good to pass up...... "pro-fetal blinders"... wow...
So anyone who opposes killing born children is wearing "pro-immature human blinders", right?
Ah man, you proaborts sure can come up with the terminology........

reply from: galen

... so YODA... do YOU think i'm one of those typical prolifers?

reply from: yoda

Mary, I don't think you're a "typical" anything.......

reply from: galen

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!
i am honoured to hear it!

reply from: xnavy

galen are you a rn or a md??? you work in a medical clinic???

reply from: galen

I am an RN w/ a Phd.. i work at a University as a professor in embryology and teach medical students about human reproduction, embryology and neonatology... i also teach an obstetrics class for nursing students, also maternal fetal health for nursing students.
i also work as a midwife for our shelter...

reply from: Cecilia

Excellent points. So far, we have no clue why Cecillia supports elective abortion.
I am getting lost on all the threads but I think it's on the "Cecilia clear up your opinion" or something like that concerned parent started.

reply from: Cecilia


The problem then is that GA is too expensive, not that abortion is allowed at all.
Are you saying that I should be telling my clients what they should do?

reply from: Cecilia

That depends on a couple of things. For one, whether it was consensual sex or not, and for another exactly what you mean by "assuming ownership of your pregnancy". Do you mean to claim that you own the baby inside you, so that gives you the right to destroy it?
Determining the course of the pregnancy. If you own anything in this world, you do own your own skin and what is under it.

reply from: Cecilia

If that is the case, than is not assuming ownership of your pregnancy 'taking responsibility'?
I can agree with that.
Again, no. Mere "ownership" does not imply responsibility. If you own a dog and don't feed and water it or give it shelter, but instead tie it up to a tree and let it die of thirst and/or starvation, or beat it regularly, or make a fighting dog out of it, that's not responsibility. By the same token, owning a perfectly healthy dog and taking it out and shooting it for no good reason is also not responsible behavior.
I have already agreed with yodavater, making your post here irrelevant. Please see above.

reply from: galen


The problem then is that GA is too expensive, not that abortion is allowed at all.
Are you saying that I should be telling my clients what they should do?
__________________________________________________
nope i AM telling you that if you have a rape victim who is pregnant you need to tread very carefully if you do not deal with them ( rape victims) on a large scale...
You now have an opinion differing from yours, and it would behoove your client to have ALL the facts about her condition before yu give her the implied 'permission' to have an abortion.
telling someone to ' do what is right for you' without giving them all the facts possible to make an informed descision backfires on a therapist over and over again... it often leads to blame and transference of blame.
you should know this.

reply from: BossMomma

I don't have a husband, my decisions are purely my own. I understand the laws regarding DNR and in the event that I cannot survive without extreme measures none will be taken.
______________________________________________-
your statements on this subject proove otherwise... take my advise on this one... get an attorny to make the necessary adjustments to you DNR now that you are pregnant... or you may find yourself on a table somwhere being and 'incubator' for your kid.
My unborn has yet to reach the age of viability, no measures would be taken if I were in an accident tonight. After viability I'm sure the baby would be safely delivered via c-section and rushed to a NICU for care, my DNR would still be honored. Your hateful little post still has no point.

reply from: BossMomma

Wow.... that's just too good to pass up...... "pro-fetal blinders"... wow...
So anyone who opposes killing born children is wearing "pro-immature human blinders", right?
Ah man, you proaborts sure can come up with the terminology........
There's Irony for you, you bristle at being called a pro-fetal-lifer yet call me a pro-abort? Pull your pants up Yoda, your ass is showing.

reply from: yoda

Of course you do. But "ownership" of your own skin does not give you the moral right to electively end the life of an innocent baby.
The right to life in innocence "trumps" all other considerations, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Wow.... that's just too good to pass up...... "pro-fetal blinders"... wow...
So anyone who opposes killing born children is wearing "pro-immature human blinders", right?
Ah man, you proaborts sure can come up with the terminology........
There's Irony for you, you bristle at being called a pro-fetal-lifer yet call me a pro-abort? Pull your pants up Yoda, your ass is showing.
"Bristle"? No, actually I don't mind being called a "pro-fetal-lifer" at all, except that it doesn't include the embryo or the zygote, does it? ALL prolifers are "pro" where the unborn are concerned, didn't you know?
Besides, the term I found so weird and strange was "pro-fetal blinders", did you forget your new term so quickly? Memory problems?

reply from: BossMomma

Wow.... that's just too good to pass up...... "pro-fetal blinders"... wow...
So anyone who opposes killing born children is wearing "pro-immature human blinders", right?
Ah man, you proaborts sure can come up with the terminology........
There's Irony for you, you bristle at being called a pro-fetal-lifer yet call me a pro-abort? Pull your pants up Yoda, your ass is showing.
"Bristle"? No, actually I don't mind being called a "pro-fetal-lifer" at all, except that it doesn't include the embryo or the zygote, does it? ALL prolifers are "pro" where the unborn are concerned, didn't you know?
Besides, the term I found so weird and strange was "pro-fetal blinders", did you forget your new term so quickly? Memory problems?
Ah ok, in all fairness to the earlier stages of gestation how about Pro-Z.E.F.Lifer? And yes I did know that all the so called Pro-life movement is concerned with is the unborn. To heck with that life once it's cleared the birth canal.

reply from: Jameberlin

That's not true. It may be true for some, but not for any pro-lifer i know personally. It's like saying.. all pro-choicers are only interested in the woman's "welfare" while she's considering abortion and shyte all over her needs and desires once she's gone through with it.

reply from: cracrat

That depends on a couple of things. For one, whether it was consensual sex or not, and for another exactly what you mean by "assuming ownership of your pregnancy". Do you mean to claim that you own the baby inside you, so that gives you the right to destroy it?
Determining the course of the pregnancy. If you own anything in this world, you do own your own skin and what is under it.
That's not entirely true; there are laws against suicide (though what it does to your mental state if you can't even do that right and get locked up for it I have no idea), laws proscribing substances I can put into my body, laws regulating behaviours that might be damaging to my health. In fact if one abides by the law at every turn, our capacity for self-determination is quite limited.
Besides which, if what's inside your skin is yours and you have final say over it, why does the baby not own what's inside its own skin (fully formed by the end of the 4th month) and get final say over what goes on there?

reply from: yoda

I know of NO prolifers who have the cold, callous attitude your ascribe to all of them. In fact, they are the kindest, most charitable group of people on this earth, IMO. What you describe fits nearly all the proaborts I know of, however.
All the kindness in the world, however, is of no use whatever to a baby that dies before birth. It's too late for it to benefit from your proabort "kindness".

reply from: BossMomma

That's not true. It may be true for some, but not for any pro-lifer i know personally. It's like saying.. all pro-choicers are only interested in the woman's "welfare" while she's considering abortion and shyte all over her needs and desires once she's gone through with it.
Definition provided by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Other important copyright information here.
pro-life:
Adjective
Advocating full legal protection of human embryos or fetuses, especially by opposing legalized abortion.
Other forms
pro-lif'er n.
By definition pro-life only advocates for the unborn.

reply from: yoda

Yet another obvious lie.
That definition says nothing about "ONLY" advocating for the unborn. You pulled that definition out of your ass.

reply from: BossMomma

I know of NO prolifers who have the cold, callous attitude your ascribe to all of them. In fact, they are the kindest, most charitable group of people on this earth, IMO. What you describe fits nearly all the proaborts I know of, however.
All the kindness in the world, however, is of no use whatever to a baby that dies before birth. It's too late for it to benefit from your proabort "kindness".
Stating that the unborn should be born no matter the circumstances is cold and callous. For example, Tay Sachs infants. Tay Sachs is always fatal and the child goes through a short life with no quality what so ever, do you support abortion in this case or should the child have to suffer the break down of the central nervous system until he or she passes naturally?

reply from: BossMomma

Yet another obvious lie.
That definition says nothing about "ONLY" advocating for the unborn. You pulled that definition out of your ass.
No sorry, I didn't pull a dictionary out of my ass (ouch) I pulled it out of a web dictionary same as any other poster here. Furthermore the definition stated that pro-life advocated for full legal protection of embryo's and fetuses. Do you know of any born embryos or fetuses in our populous cause if you do I'll stand corrected.

reply from: yoda

The unborn WILL be born, no matter the circumstances!! The only difference is that I advocate that they NOT BE KILLED before birth, and you advocate the opposite.
Allowing nature to take it's course is the most humane thing to do in the case of fetal anomalies. There is no "mercy"in killing unborn babies, there is only selfishness, greed, and cold hearted indifference.

reply from: yoda

You can't read and/or comprehend plain English very well, can you?
There is NO MENTION of the word "ONLY" in the definition, is there?
Therefore one maybe prolife AND be active in other causes as well, or is that just too complicated for you to comprehend?

reply from: BossMomma

You can't read and/or comprehend plain English very well, can you?
There is NO MENTION of the word "ONLY" in the definition, is there?
Therefore one maybe prolife AND be active in other causes as well, or is that just too complicated for you to comprehend?
Actually I read and comprehend very well, you are dodging around the black and white facts detailed in that simple definition because it contradicts your argument.

reply from: yoda

The "black and white" words in the definition DO NOT INCLUDE the word "ONLY", do they?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?

reply from: Cecilia

I do indeed know this, and am quite in agreement with you. I didn't say that I would do otherwise.

reply from: Cecilia

That is not what prochoice activists advocate.
It is not for you to determine the course of a mother carrying an unborn baby with severe fetal anomalies. What could be more a selfish, greedy, and cold hearted indifference to her needs?

reply from: yoda

That IS what THAT PARTICULAR ONE advocates.
What is "selfish" about advocating that we not kill unborn babies? How do I benefit from that?
I'll be glad to be judged based on my advocacy of not killing unborn babies, and I hope you won't mind being judged on your advocacy of killing them.

reply from: BossMomma

That IS what THAT PARTICULAR ONE advocates.
What is "selfish" about advocating that we not kill unborn babies? How do I benefit from that?
I'll be glad to be judged based on my advocacy of not killing unborn babies, and I hope you won't mind being judged on your advocacy of killing them.
Definition provided by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Other important copyright information here.
pro-choice:
Adjective
Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy to term.
Funny, I see the ability to choose to give birth in this definition.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. That makes proaborts "enablers", who make it easier and more attractive for women to kill their babies. And enablers are equally guilty as those who actually do the killing.
Oh, btw, have you noticed the similarity between your definition and these?
pro-a·bor·tion adjective - favoring legal access to abortion: in favor of open legal access to voluntary abortion http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736813

reply from: sweet

what is this world coming to? when a mother needs to LOOK IT UP in the dictionary...to find out if it is right to kill her baby.

reply from: yoda

Yep..... even the thinnest of very thing fig leafs is enough of an excuse for them to slaughter a baby.....
They are all totally transparent.......

reply from: BossMomma

Exactly. That makes proaborts "enablers", who make it easier and more attractive for women to kill their babies. And enablers are equally guilty as those who actually do the killing.
Oh, btw, have you noticed the similarity between your definition and these?
pro-a·bor·tion adjective - favoring legal access to abortion: in favor of open legal access to voluntary abortion http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861736813
Pro-abortion is your title for me, Pro-choice is my title for myself and the only one that matters to me.

reply from: Cecilia

That IS what THAT PARTICULAR ONE advocates.
What is "selfish" about advocating that we not kill unborn babies? How do I benefit from that?
I'll be glad to be judged based on my advocacy of not killing unborn babies, and I hope you won't mind being judged on your advocacy of killing them.
I don't know how you benefit either way, honestly. Why don't you share what you get out of doing this?

reply from: yoda

BossMomma
The "black and white" words in the definition DO NOT INCLUDE the word "ONLY", do they?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?
Yes or no?

reply from: yoda

Pro-abortion is your title for me, Pro-choice is my title for myself and the only one that matters to me.
So you're saying that you DO NOT "favor legal access to abortion: in favor of open legal access to voluntary abortion"
Well, that means you're NOT "prochoice" either!!

reply from: yoda

The satisfaction of knowing that I am doing the right thing, trying to protect the tiny, helpless, voiceless against the "big people" who kill them. I like underdogs.


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