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A message to the rude and obnoxious posters

Jesus did not hate

by: RiverMoonLady

GodsLaw4Us2Live's tagline:
"I John 3:14-15 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
Some of you haters ought to read this closely and think about it. Haters are the same as murderers and are denied eternal life. Is this what you really want?

reply from: yoda

I agree with you 100%. But why start a new thread, why not post this as a response to an actual "rude and obnoxious" post, so we can all see what you're talking about?
Generalities are generally inaccurate, you know?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

If I tried to answer every ugly post with this wonderful quote, it would take forever. Sad, isn't it?

reply from: faithman

We are not the ones who hate womb children to death. It is real conveniant to cherry pick the scipture, then ignore the fact that it says murderers. Those who take innocent life. Put up one post where we say that we hate murderers. We simply want them to quit killing womb children and making excuses for those who do under the pretence of mercy. It is not an action of hate to warn people of the consiquence of killing innocent children. Mill stone anyone?

reply from: Banned Member

This post in and of itself says NOTHING! A hater? You see that sort of language on teeage facebook and myspace pages. "Don't be a hater!" the kids say. And what would that hate be? This is the view of the secular mythological jesus. The jesus that loves everybody and everything, whether you are a priest, a muslim or a 19 year old goth that sleeps around and has had 3 abortions and marches in gay rights parades.
"Don't be a hater!" is the secular call to permissiveness, not the command to love of Jesus Christ.
The Jesus of the Bible prescribes certain ways of living and certain things that we must not do. The first thing is that we must repent of our sins. Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fufill the law and in doing so, would abolish sin.
John says... (1 John 2:15-17)
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world. Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.
(1 John 3:4-9)
Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.
If proclaiming the truth makes me a hater, than you you can call me a hater if you wish. I hate abortion in all its forms. I hate every abortion. But truth is not hate, even though some may hate you for proclaiming it.
(1 John 3:13-19)
Do not be amazed, (then,) brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. Whoever does not love remains in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. The way we came to know love was that he laid down his life for us; so we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of God remain in him? Children, let us love not in word or speech but in deed and truth.
We are given two commands, to love God above all things and the second, like to the first, is to love one another.

reply from: Faramir

It's sad that the "pro-aborts" set a better example of civility.
Or mabye this forum for some reason has attracted "bottom of the barrel" prolifers.
Or it could simply be that this forum is not moderated.
Name calling and the degradation that is rampant on this forum is not tolerated on civilized forums. It's nice that the owner of the site provides it, but I wish he would take a good hard look at what kind of horrible examples the dominant prolifers on this forum set.

reply from: yoda

No, not at all. A few "examples" would do quite nicely.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Augustine, forgive me for using a "teenage" word. Just replace "haters" with "those who hate" and maybe you will catch my drift.

reply from: yoda

Yep. Generalities are generally pretty inaccurate.

reply from: yoda

I think the "drift" Augustine is looking for is "specificity". Kinda like my suggestion, ya know?

reply from: faithman

It's sad that the "pro-aborts" set a better example of civility.
Or mabye this forum for some reason has attracted "bottom of the barrel" prolifers.
Or it could simply be that this forum is not moderated.
Name calling and the degradation that is rampant on this forum is not tolerated on civilized forums. It's nice that the owner of the site provides it, but I wish he would take a good hard look at what kind of horrible examples the dominant prolifers on this forum set.
No one is holding you here. And you excuse the most uncivil act of murder behind your pretence of civility. I have no compuction to be nice to monsters who kill, or advocate/defend killers. If we are such horible examples, go away. No one is twisting your arm to stay. Quite frankly we would be better off without either of you posting here. You are free to go anytime. Don't let your modem hit ya on the way out.

reply from: Faramir

So when you referred to Carolemarie as a "tea and chocolate" prolifer, knowing full well that you totally distorted her message to the postabortive by taking one element out of context, that you were attempting to help her repent? I think you're too late, because she's already done that, and it's none of your beeswax anyway.
You preach some nice sermons sometimes, but you confuse me when you stick the knife in like f'man, yodavater and nancyu do, though not as often.

reply from: yoda

Don't be too hard on her/him, FMan, s/he's just frustrated because s/he can't think of enough bad names to call me..... s/he's run out of body parts, I think.

reply from: Faramir

I've pointed out and responded to numerous hateful posts, but the hateful only turn the tables.
They have been relentlessly cruel to carolemarie, and 4given, for example, will reprimand me for calling them out, but doesn't say a peep about the abusive comments that The Three Stooges make on a regular basis, and refuses to defend CM, but will quickly step in to defend faithman of all people, and I wonder why that is.
Yodavater's most recent harrasiveness to CM is to accuse her of being another poster, who she obviously is not. That is just part of the regular harrassment and hatred she endures as a matter of course on this board, and many just look the other way.
I think it would be a waste to try to convince them, though, because they are blinded to it, and will always excuse it because of "the babies."
I'm happy you have become more prolife and less prochoice because of this board, or should I say in SPITE of this board. I commend you for being able to see the pony buried in the pile of manure.

reply from: faithman

I've pointed out and responded to numerous hateful posts, but the hateful only turn the tables.
They have been relentlessly cruel to carolemarie, and 4given, for example, will reprimand me for calling them out, but doesn't say a peep about the abusive comments that The Three Stooges make on a regular basis, and refuses to defend CM, but will quickly step in to defend faithman of all people, and I wonder why that is.
Yodavater's most recent harrasiveness to CM is to accuse her of being another poster, who she obviously is not. That is just part of the regular harrassment and hatred she endures as a matter of course on this board, and many just look the other way.
I think it would be a waste to try to convince them, though, because they are blinded to it, and will always excuse it because of "the babies."
I'm happy you have become more prolife and less prochoice because of this board, or should I say in SPITE of this board. I commend you for being able to see the pony buried in the pile of manure.
Quit piling up your manure, and we could see the womb child just fine. the babies are not an excuse, they are the purpose. The purpose you forget quite often. You would rather defend the killers insted of the ones they kill. Like I said, no one is holding either one of you here. You can leave anytime.

reply from: Faramir

There has been a call for "examples" of hateful posts. Here is a recent one from the "what's wrong with this girl?" thread.
CM was not the subject in any way, yet faithman felt a need to once more bring her up and use her as a punching bag.
I feel bad for her. I'm not saying she did the right thing, but I can feel bad for her.
What the heck. CM had three about that age. where is all this simpathy about her little youthful mistakes? Just say your little jesus prayer, then you owe nothing to the memory of the children you kill. God is all into perverting justice to let serial killers go free just because of gender, and their victims are of less value womb children. Don't you no that "real" pro-lifers exault the interest of killer mom over the interest of the children they kill? No room for your disgust here.

reply from: faithman

I feel bad for her. I'm not saying she did the right thing, but I can feel bad for her.
What the heck. CM had three about that age. where is all this simpathy about her little youthful mistakes? Just say your little jesus prayer, then you owe nothing to the memory of the children you kill. God is all into perverting justice to let serial killers go free just because of gender, and their victims are of less value womb children. Don't you no that "real" pro-lifers exault the interest of killer mom over the interest of the children they kill? No room for your disgust here.
You are injecting your hate of me into the post. I have made no mention of hating anyone, and have merely restated facts that have been posted on this forum. I was merely pointing out that CM is guilty of the same heartless disreguard for life that the girl in the story showed. Nio point out where I said I hated anybody? You once again have lied, and injected your preception on intent. No where does my post project hatred, that is left up to you to do against me.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

That's just plain vile, especially this part:
"Just say your little jesus prayer, then you owe nothing to the memory of the children you kill. God is all into perverting justice to let serial killers go free just because of gender . . . "
The Lord would be disgusted.

reply from: churchmouse

Augustine.......I just love and look forward to reading your posts.
God Bless
I respectfully dissagree. If someone can be civil about the slaughter in the womb, they can come across civil about anything, because nothing bothers them. Some hearts are just hardened.
I do not think passion is a bad thing. I have passion for Christ. I take the Great Commission as a direct commandment from God, not a suggestion. I do not feel it is uncivil to share the gospel even going as far as saying someone based on scripture is not going to spend eternity with Christ if they deny him. I dont think its bad to tell someone that because they are pro-choice that they are pro-abortion either.
I see many here that don't believe in God mock those that do, jsut for laughs.
You talking about me? LOL
I think the pro-life group for the most part here are wonderful people. Even though I might dissagree with minor stuff I can feel their passion and commitment for this cause. No one is perfect. We all get upset and say things in haste that we wish we had not said. I love this site.
Go to sites like debatepolitics.com and go into the abortion thread there. Pro-lifers get torn apart by the pro-aborts. I was there for over three years......and finally I needed a rest from the verbal abuse. There might be two against abortion......Boy I wish we had... had more there like we have here.......I couldnt do it all by myself. They are rabid dogs.......A lot of God mockers and atheists (and no not all athiests are bad).........couldn't stomach them any longer.....Faithman you would even be shocked....LOL
Boy I wish they would get a taste of their own medicine. Let me know if anyone wants to go, I wont go alone anymore.
This is a wonderful place to debate and for the most part wonderful people.

reply from: faithman

What He is digusted with is ole bort head scancs that justify killing womb children then pervert His word to make out like they are christian. Those who believe in abortion are hell bound. There is no such thing as a "pro-choice" christian. Abortion and faith are exclusive and incompatible. You have to know the Lord to know what disgusts Him. I sugest you get about meeting Him, insted of falsly sugesting what disgusts Him.

reply from: Faramir

Another example of a personal attack and a hateful post. Please refer it to yodavater since he hides from me and puts me on "iggy" (while still bravely taking shots at me, of course).
A prize to the first one who guesses the author of this lovliness.

reply from: faithman

A prize to the first one who guesses the author of this lovliness.
Once again you lie and project your own hatreed into what was said. No where in this post does it talk of hating anyone. It is a statement of fact. Statments of fact are not hatred. But false accusations, and twisting of the truth are. you are the hater and have yet to post one example of hatred.

reply from: Faramir

Some are wonderful and some really suck.
I don't care if someone is prolife--if he gets off abusing and bullying someone continually, and if others enjoy watching and participating--it's really sick.

reply from: faithman

Some are wonderful and some really suck.
I don't care if someone is prolife--if he gets off abusing and bullying someone continually, and if others enjoy watching and participating--it's really sick.
What is sick is your obsession with hate when the only one who posts it is you.

reply from: 4given

I have never read where he stated women "should shut up and do what they are told". Given how he cares for and respects his wife, I would have to say, that statement is false.
The comment about the power drill I believe had to do with the cost of your surgery, but that is between you two.
The firing squad would be a merciful way to die, as opposed to death by abortion. That, from my memory is what he was talking about. Again, you would have to take it up with him.

reply from: Faramir

If it turns out that Dr. Tiller cares for and respects his wife, what would that prove?

reply from: Faramir

I have never read where he stated women "should shut up and do what they are told". Given how he cares for and respects his wife, I would have to say, that statement is false.
The comment about the power drill I believe had to do with the cost of your surgery, but that is between you two.
The firing squad would be a merciful way to die, as opposed to death by abortion. That, from my memory is what he was talking about. Again, you would have to take it up with him.
A question for you 4given.
Above is a quote from faithmain once again calling carolemarie a "killer," and if you read his posts, you know he does this extremely frequently.
My criticisms of him, nancyu, and yodavater have all been in reaction to this kind of cruelty and badgering.
I have never seen you criticize them for it, or ever stand up for carolemarie, but you are quick to defend faithman when I call him out on what I perceive to be abusive and degrading comments.
Do you see those comments as wrong and abusive?
Why do you feel a need to reprimand me when I react to their harrassment, but have no problem with the comments that inspire me to respond to them?
Are you in agreement with faithman constantly calling carolemarie a "killer"? Do you think that is a good thing to do and do you think it helps the babies and do you think love of babies is what motivates him?
If you're inclined to say it's none of your business to address it, then I am inclined to ask why it is your business to address my comments.

reply from: 4given

I'm not interested Faramir.

reply from: 4given

I have stated my displeasure over some comments to Carole that went too far and for too long. I don't remember addressing you about comments you made to him. Why would I?
I was making the point Faramir. You constantly complain about other posters behavior, all the while doing exactly the same thing. Following them around post after post, trying to get messages to Yoda or carrying on about Yoda especially. (and Nancy and Faithman)
I wouldn't agree with his choice to do so. Ask Faithman what motivates him. I can't answer for him in regard to his obvious issue with another poster.
You carry on far too often about other posters. It is hypocritical. It is unnecessary. It becomes irksome.

reply from: Banned Member

The majority of posts here are not about Faithman, except yours Faramir. Why is that? If the entire community on this forum acquiesced and scolded Faithman, would that appease you, or would you simply harp on about the next most annoying thing to you? Try posting something interesting or insightful that will help the pro-life movement rather than play the knight in shining armor for CarolMarie. She's a big girl, she can defend herself. Or do you simply need your objections validated?
You are the one that told me once that I should have been more polite to a bunch of rabid pro-abortion baby killing advocates, so that they would not have banned me from their "nice" little forum. This the same forum (prochoicetalk.com) that denegrated the Pope and the Catholic Church; the same forum that you claimed to have such cordial relations with.
Do you remember that? Or do you only play the good samaritan for the ladies?
Do you remember prochoicetalk.com Faramir?

reply from: Faramir

I didn't know you were banned from that forum. Which one were you?
At any rate I said nothing about being "polite." I said that it was a moderated forum with rules, and those who obey the rules can post just about anything they want about religion.
But that has nothing to do with the here and now.
Abusiveness and degredation should not be tolerated. It should be opposed. You not only do not oppose it, you get your nasty jabs in as well.
And I let hundreds of abusive posts go by without comment. Nobody could possibly keep up with all of them, unless they made it a full time job.
Unfortunately the nastiness is not just perpetrated by one poster once in awhile. There is a concerted effort by nancyu, faithman, and yodavater, and they are relentless in their bullying. The lastest harrasiveness from yoda is to accuse CM of being another poster. And you threw in your dig about being a "tea and chocolate" prolifer. And how many "killer caroles" have you seen? That doesn't make you wince? Or do you enjoy it?
One person should not have to endure the three of them and their followers without some support and encouragement from others.
But I agree that I should be making other comments. I think an interesting topic would be whether it makes sense to vote for a third party candidate who is more prolife than John McCain. My feeling is that that would be throwing a vote away, and would be a vote for Obama, and I have already made comments to that effect, so I am not a one trick pony. But the hatefulness issue is not irrelevant because hatefulness is counterproductive to the prolife cause.

reply from: Banned Member

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.

reply from: Faramir

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.
Then you and faithman truly are "brothers" in spite of his mocking of our faith, and in spite of the fact that you can spell.
If you can't see that rubbing the nose of a post abortive woman (who regrets her abortions and who fights to stop others from aborting) continually in her abortions is cruel and inhuman, then you are either heartless or brainless.

reply from: carolemarie

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.
So unless I do what you want or think how you want, it's okay to call me horrible names? That trying to bully and push women around is acceptable behavior? That is how Jesus wants you to treat fellow believers?
Please quote the chapter and verse to back this up for me.

reply from: Faramir

I spent way too much for my hatreed to go around projecting it.
I would rather smoke it, thank you. But I assure you, I don't inhale.

reply from: Faramir

I spent way too much for my hatreed to go around projecting it.
I would rather smoke it, thank you. But I assure you, I don't inhale.

reply from: Jameberlin

I spent way too much for my hatreed to go around projecting it.
I would rather smoke it, thank you. But I assure you, I don't inhale.

reply from: 4given

He's got a role he wants to play. He's okay- He's just a cowboy for a day .You could be just like him. TOMORROW! Maybe you'll get a chance to borrow his bouquet..

reply from: yoda

I respectfully dissagree. If someone can be civil about the slaughter in the womb, they can come across civil about anything, because nothing bothers them. Some hearts are just hardened.
I do not think passion is a bad thing.
Well said, I agree.

reply from: Faramir

I respectfully dissagree. If someone can be civil about the slaughter in the womb, they can come across civil about anything, because nothing bothers them. Some hearts are just hardened.
I do not think passion is a bad thing.
Well said, I agree.
Passion is a good thing when chanelled into a good cause Churchmouse.
But when prolifers kick other prolifers to the curb, that is NOT passion.

reply from: churchmouse

And vexing.......you told me to take a rusty pipe and do you know what with it. You have NO ROOM TO TALK.
Faramir carolemarie was a killer. I was a killer.......faithman stated facts maybe a bit harsh but nevertheless the truth. Anyone that takes a life kills. There is no really nice way of putting it. But we are all sinners none of us worthy of forgiveness. I have been forgiven.......I dont care what anyone here thinks of me only my FAther in heaven. It is He I answer to. He is my faith, my life. I come here to share and to try to convince others that abortion not only kills an innocent human being.....INNOCENT, PURE....... But using my past experience and the devestation that it created in my life......that abortion is far more than killing. It kills a piece of the soul. Christ is the answer I want woman to know this. Christ forgave me when I wanted to kill myself. He is my rock and He also can be theirs if they repent and ask forgiveness.
If every woman that suffered remorse from abortion.......over killing an unborn child had the guts to stand up and share the truth..........can you just imagine the impact it would have on this issue.
The topic is abortion.......carole and I had abortions, we killed innocent human beings. But as for other Christians throwing stones at us I will say........it hurts. No one knows the torment one goes through that has done this and has to live with it. You might be empathetic but you cant in any way understand. To see a little child, a picture of a friends sonogram....
Lets just say its not easy some days watching a Baby Story on television. We know what we did and most of us think about it everyday. Some are just are to afraid to share their hurt.
If the topic here was pornography, adultry, stealing, lust, lying, coveting.......how many here then would be on the defensive? Or do we just have perfect people here with the exception of carole and me?
Are we glorifying God here with our hurtful words? Would we say the same things as we say here......if Christ was debating?
This is exactly what the humanists love.......religious people divided and fighting. I left a forum for this very reason......people using profane language, attacking others, mocking God.
My mom said, if you cant think of anything nice to say dont say it. I like many here have not followed that line of thinking. I apologize to anyone I may have hurt.
How would Christ view the comments from all of us on this board?
I dont care what any of you call me here.........I know that Christ is in my heart and He calls me HIS. I am HIS.

reply from: Faramir

There is a huge difference beween "was" and "is" and there is a huge difference in culpability, when someone is young and scared, and the act is encouraged by law and society.
Call yourself whatever you want. That doesn't mean it's right that others degrade postabortive women.

reply from: yoda

No matter how much I try to put myself in your position, I can only guess at how it must feel. I once thought I might have caused a fatal accident to a baby when I was only about 7 years old, and just the thought of that possibility weighed on my mind for years and years. I still think about it sometimes, but the circumstances of that day prevented me, or anyone else, from knowing exactly what actually happened. So I guess that's the closest I can come to knowing where you're coming from.
I've seen and heard from post abortive women when they give their testimony in support of the prolife cause, and I can see and hear the pain in them. It's not an easy thing to see, so it can't be an easy thing to bear. I sympathize with such women (and men) to the extent that anyone can without actually knowing their pain, and especially when I see that they are driven by that pain to try to stop other women and men from making the same mistake.
One of my fellow protesters is an elderly lady who had an abortion 65 years ago, and she often mentions it when she's trying to talk (shout, really) to the customers going into the mill. You can hear the passion in her voice, and see it in her face. And her face lit up like a neon sign that day when she saved a baby by what she was saying. She was on cloud nine for weeks after that. There simply was no doubt about where her heart was. She and I have talked about it, and she realizes that she can never wipe her abortion out of her mind completely, no matter what happens. But she has decided that she can use that horrible thing to save a few other babies, and so she's content to do that, without ever minimizing her own abortion in any way. It's a sad thing, really, because she is a good woman, doing her best to save innocent children, and yet there is a small part of her that will never completely heal in this lifetime.
There is an old saying that goes "You can never go home again", and I think that's generally true. You can never go back to exactly the way things used to me, no matter how much you want to, sometimes. So you just have to go forward.

reply from: cracrat

Has she been appropriately punished for her illegal abortion? If not, why haven't you reported her to the appropriate authority? There are statutes of limitations, but you must agree these aren't applicable in cases where another person has been deliberately killed.

reply from: yoda

So, you just read the first line, and then attack?
Typical proabort tactic.

reply from: cracrat

No, I read your whole post. But this lady had her abortion 30 years before RvW. She comissioned the murder of her unborn child at a time when such action was illegal. Has she been punished for this? If she has not, why do you not see it as your duty, as a staunch defender of the unborn, to see she is punished appropriately? Or are there different rules for Yoda's chums?

reply from: yoda

I wouldn't be defending the unborn to try to cause her problems. I would be silencing a gallant voice that speaks out for the unborn. I would be defending those who support baby killing, like you.

reply from: churchmouse

Should it matter to the unborn what the circumstances of their murder was? They dont get a vote.
Every person getting an abortion walks in on their own two feet. They sign the papers. Unless a child is forced by a parent every woman gives consent.
I do not believe anyone should be abused verbally, but that does not mean not sharing the truth about the actions that are committed. Every woman that has an abortion......kills something. This can be said in many ways.......we all have our different way.....but the important thing is we all agree that killing the unborn is murder and wrong and should be stopped.
I am so glad you mention men because they also are victims in all of this. Our country does not acknowledge them in this issue. Its their children that are being slaughtered as well. If woman can grieve, can come to terms with the decision, men can as well.
You pagans are something else. Anyone that would use that quote from Nietzsche as their signature is sad. It sums you up apparently.
And my dear you use faith every day of your life. You couldn't live without it. Its just that your faith is in yourself. You make yourself God. Ethical values for you are a matter of personal taste....no moral framework.
I have a Nietzsche quote as well........."I too, have to end up worshipping at the altar where God's name is truth."
You can run but you cant hide. Sooner or later you will come before the Judge of all mankind, or Creator. You can use that quote to Him, I am sure He will find it amusing.

reply from: cracrat

Oh, so the one she saved is worth more than the one she killed? How do you call yourself a defender of the unborn if you value some more than others? Where is the cut-off point? What is the minimum action on the part of a parent who kills their child for them to no longer be a pariah in your eyes? Her voice would not be taken by the courts, she could still campaign wherever she ends up. You would be seeing justice done for that poor child who never got their chance at life.

reply from: cracrat

You pagans are something else. Anyone that would use that quote from Nietzsche as their signature is sad. It sums you up apparently.
And my dear you use faith every day of your life. You couldn't live without it. Its just that your faith is in yourself. You make yourself God. Ethical values for you are a matter of personal taste....no moral framework.
I have a Nietzsche quote as well........."I too, have to end up worshipping at the altar where God's name is truth."
You can run but you cant hide. Sooner or later you will come before the Judge of all mankind, or Creator. You can use that quote to Him, I am sure He will find it amusing.
You have no idea as to my faith, judgemental one, and I am not willing to discuss it here.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?

reply from: yoda

Prolifers don't compare the value of one human being to another, only proaborts do that.

reply from: cracrat

Prolifers don't compare the value of one human being to another, only proaborts do that.
You have done exactly that though. You have decided that the one she killed is not worthy of justice because she tries to save others. You have placed a greater value on the ones she might save than on the one she did kill. Saying pro-lifers value them all equally means nothing if your actions prove otherwise.

reply from: yoda

Nope, not at all. Trying to have her prosecuted would not bring back the one she killed, not to mention that no women were ever prosecuted for having an abortion in this state, even before Roe.
You seem not to want her to save any more babies, is that right? You really would like to see her voice silenced, wouldn't you?

reply from: cracrat

Nope, not at all. Trying to have her prosecuted would not bring back the one she killed, not to mention that no women were ever prosecuted for having an abortion in this state, even before Roe.
You seem not to want her to save any more babies, is that right? You really would like to see her voice silenced, wouldn't you?
You're right. Prosecuting someone for a crime does not undo the effects of that crime. But by your logic, why prosecute any murderer or rapist? Their victims would be just as dead, just as raped. The point is that justice is done and seen to be done.
I hope she spends many more years working to save children and wish her every success. In no way do I want her to be silenced. I don't know what you think happens in prison, but I assure you that they do not take your voice away. You're the one who claims to value these defenseless ones higher than all else in your life, yet you gladly stand by this person who willfully commited such a heinous act. Your hypocrisy is quite astounding.

reply from: yoda

You're really quite full of it, you know? Now it's all coming back to me...
And you totally ignored my mention that no customer had ever been charged or prosecuted for having an abortion in my state.... why was that? And of course, I don't really know what state she had it in... nor do I care. No woman was ever charged in any state in America for having an abortion, to the best of my knowledge. How about in jolly ole England?
No, she is in no danger of prosecution, even if she goes to the authorities and turns herself in.... they would just look at her funny. And yet, you want to use my lack of willingness to pursue her prosecution to call me a hypocrite.... now, what does that make you.... ???

reply from: cracrat

You're really quite full of it, you know? Now it's all coming back to me...
And you totally ignored my mention that no customer had ever been charged or prosecuted for having an abortion in my state.... why was that? And of course, I don't really know what state she had it in... nor do I care. No woman was ever charged in any state in America for having an abortion, to the best of my knowledge. How about in jolly ole England?
Elizabeth Ann Hustler convicted in 1885 of unlawful use of an instrument to procure the miscarriage [abortion] of Elizabeth Edwards in Bradford, sentanced to 6 years penal servitude.
I'd try and find you more, but it's really boring searching through archives of courts cases.
An idealist.

reply from: Faramir

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.
You may disagree with her views and methods, but her past should be off limits.
Do you remind your mother three times a day of her sins of fornication?

reply from: Faramir

Nice post, CP. Thanks for being reasonable and supportive. I will respond in greater lenght when I have more time.

reply from: Faramir

You are missing the point.
We should not be supporting those who harrass and verbally abuse the post abortive. That does not help the babies.
A post abortive woman who regrets her abortions is no longer a "killer" and does not deserve that label. If you want to pin it on yourself, that's your business, but that does not give you the privilige of pinning it on someone else.
A "killer" is someone who kills. A killer is a threat to you and me and needs to be locked up. Somone who aborted and now realizes she was wrong and is sorry and who is now fighting to save other babies is a threat to no one and does not deserve to be called a killer.
For a prolifer to take adavantage of his cause and use it to club others is disgraceful, and such a person should not be given the time of day, let alone constantly patted on the back for the "good" he does, because you are only encouraging his abusiveness.

reply from: churchmouse

I make value judgments on your words and actions. God does not say that I can not do this. I am sure you dont want to discuss it, for me you dont have to. That one quote speaks volumes for me.
I will tell you this........no Christian or person of faith in God would have selected that quote for a signature. And you selected it for a specific reason, that is obvious.
You posted this scripture.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?
I am not slandering you. I am sharing opinion. And I do not judge the law......the law is perfect.
If you were a Christian you would quickly acknowledge God, you have not done that, so I assume that you are not my brother in Christ. I have every right to judge you for what you say and what you do here on this board. You ahve every right to question and judge me.
You do not understand the biblial meaning of judging. You obviously have a negative attitude towards it. Do you also hate judges and the jurys that sit in judgment of people that go before them?
You are right I have no right to judge your heart, Christ is the final judge........but I have every right to judge you on your behavior and what you post here.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS.
We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13, says
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

It's about how God values life. In His eyes abortion before Roe is the same as abortion after Roe. It is a life killed. God will be just.
Concerned are you telling me I am bashing carole? I sure as heck hope you are not. I have defended her.
How dare you say EVERYONE IS BASHING HER AND THAT WE DONT GIVE A CRAP.
So you can say harsh things to make your point, but God forbid if anyone else does. LOL
And do you read others posts with the intention that it might apply to you?

He does have passion for the unborn. He calls it the way he sees it.
And for your information he has never harrassed me.
Would you change your presentation if people didnt like how you were coming across?
The right approach? What is the right approach? Your way is the only right approach? is that what you are saying?
Who here has the perfect approach?
Faithman puts it out there but so do others. Did you or anyone for that matter come to my defense when vexing told me to go get a rusty pipe and hurt myself?
NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ON THIS BOARD SAID ONE THING. So dont try to come across as being perfect in word and action because no body here is just that.
I have seen some outrageous things said on here.
How about the hurtful and sick poems that "one of the boards finest" wrote on my behalf. ONE PERSON called them mean and nasty. One person.
Wrong. Carol killed that fact never will change, no more than the truth of my abortion will change. I killed. We both killed and those decisions can NEVER BE TAKEN BACK.
So you are wrong.
I dont hold it agaisnt anyone if they call me a killer. I killed my unborn child. But do I care what they really think of me today? Only that I show I walk in the light of Gods Word, that I show that I am a sheep in Gods pasture. I do not care if they judge me......I have been forgiven and that is the most important thing.
Like concerned said, all have fallen short.....every one of us.

reply from: galen

especially you it seems...

reply from: yoda

Apparently, you don't understand the word "customer". What you describe is the sentencing of an abortionist, not a customer.

reply from: cracrat

I make value judgments on your words and actions. God does not say that I can not do this. I am sure you dont want to discuss it, for me you dont have to. That one quote speaks volumes for me.
I will tell you this........no Christian or person of faith in God would have selected that quote for a signature. And you selected it for a specific reason, that is obvious.
You posted this scripture.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?
I am not slandering you. I am sharing opinion. And I do not judge the law......the law is perfect.
If you were a Christian you would quickly acknowledge God, you have not done that, so I assume that you are not my brother in Christ. I have every right to judge you for what you say and what you do here on this board. You ahve every right to question and judge me.
You do not understand the biblial meaning of judging. You obviously have a negative attitude towards it. Do you also hate judges and the jurys that sit in judgment of people that go before them?
You are right I have no right to judge your heart, Christ is the final judge........but I have every right to judge you on your behavior and what you post here.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS.
We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13, says
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."
It's about how God values life. In His eyes abortion before Roe is the same as abortion after Roe. It is a life killed. God will be just.
Say what you like about my relationship with God and it's reflection into the world. Christianity is not the be all and end all so far as I'm concerned. There is a God, God cares for us all and converses with us as required. I converse with God most days and it helps me to make sense of the world around me. When I die, I shall meet God as a friend and we shall tell each other of what we've learned through my life. The petty judgements of self-important persons based on a book written at a time when people feared lightening as God's wrath will neither concern me nor dissuade me from the path I follow.

reply from: cracrat

Hello treasure, long time no read. How goes it in the world of you? I do hope that cancer nonsense isn't giving you too much jip.

reply from: carolemarie

I make value judgments on your words and actions. God does not say that I can not do this. I am sure you dont want to discuss it, for me you dont have to. That one quote speaks volumes for me.
I will tell you this........no Christian or person of faith in God would have selected that quote for a signature. And you selected it for a specific reason, that is obvious.
You posted this scripture.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?
I am not slandering you. I am sharing opinion. And I do not judge the law......the law is perfect.
If you were a Christian you would quickly acknowledge God, you have not done that, so I assume that you are not my brother in Christ. I have every right to judge you for what you say and what you do here on this board. You ahve every right to question and judge me.
You do not understand the biblial meaning of judging. You obviously have a negative attitude towards it. Do you also hate judges and the jurys that sit in judgment of people that go before them?
You are right I have no right to judge your heart, Christ is the final judge........but I have every right to judge you on your behavior and what you post here.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS.
We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13, says
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

It's about how God values life. In His eyes abortion before Roe is the same as abortion after Roe. It is a life killed. God will be just.
Concerned are you telling me I am bashing carole? I sure as heck hope you are not. I have defended her.
How dare you say EVERYONE IS BASHING HER AND THAT WE DONT GIVE A CRAP.
So you can say harsh things to make your point, but God forbid if anyone else does. LOL
And do you read others posts with the intention that it might apply to you?

He does have passion for the unborn. He calls it the way he sees it.
And for your information he has never harrassed me.
Would you change your presentation if people didnt like how you were coming across?
The right approach? What is the right approach? Your way is the only right approach? is that what you are saying?
Who here has the perfect approach?
Faithman puts it out there but so do others. Did you or anyone for that matter come to my defense when vexing told me to go get a rusty pipe and hurt myself?
NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ON THIS BOARD SAID ONE THING. So dont try to come across as being perfect in word and action because no body here is just that.
I have seen some outrageous things said on here.
How about the hurtful and sick poems that "one of the boards finest" wrote on my behalf. ONE PERSON called them mean and nasty. One person.
Wrong. Carol killed that fact never will change, no more than the truth of my abortion will change. I killed. We both killed and those decisions can NEVER BE TAKEN BACK.
So you are wrong.
I dont hold it agaisnt anyone if they call me a killer. I killed my unborn child. But do I care what they really think of me today? Only that I show I walk in the light of Gods Word, that I show that I am a sheep in Gods pasture. I do not care if they judge me......I have been forgiven and that is the most important thing.
Like concerned said, all have fallen short.....every one of us.
I resent being called a killer. They do it to tell me I am not prolife and to belittle and put me down. I do not like it and I don't deserve it. Especially from people who support Paul Hill and those who kill abortion doctors. I have served God at the abortion clinics for 13 years, reaching out to women and helping them choose life and I resent being called a babykiller. It is a lie and not true.

reply from: faithman

I make value judgments on your words and actions. God does not say that I can not do this. I am sure you dont want to discuss it, for me you dont have to. That one quote speaks volumes for me.
I will tell you this........no Christian or person of faith in God would have selected that quote for a signature. And you selected it for a specific reason, that is obvious.
You posted this scripture.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?
I am not slandering you. I am sharing opinion. And I do not judge the law......the law is perfect.
If you were a Christian you would quickly acknowledge God, you have not done that, so I assume that you are not my brother in Christ. I have every right to judge you for what you say and what you do here on this board. You ahve every right to question and judge me.
You do not understand the biblial meaning of judging. You obviously have a negative attitude towards it. Do you also hate judges and the jurys that sit in judgment of people that go before them?
You are right I have no right to judge your heart, Christ is the final judge........but I have every right to judge you on your behavior and what you post here.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS.
We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13, says
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

It's about how God values life. In His eyes abortion before Roe is the same as abortion after Roe. It is a life killed. God will be just.
Concerned are you telling me I am bashing carole? I sure as heck hope you are not. I have defended her.
How dare you say EVERYONE IS BASHING HER AND THAT WE DONT GIVE A CRAP.
So you can say harsh things to make your point, but God forbid if anyone else does. LOL
And do you read others posts with the intention that it might apply to you?

He does have passion for the unborn. He calls it the way he sees it.
And for your information he has never harrassed me.
Would you change your presentation if people didnt like how you were coming across?
The right approach? What is the right approach? Your way is the only right approach? is that what you are saying?
Who here has the perfect approach?
Faithman puts it out there but so do others. Did you or anyone for that matter come to my defense when vexing told me to go get a rusty pipe and hurt myself?
NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ON THIS BOARD SAID ONE THING. So dont try to come across as being perfect in word and action because no body here is just that.
I have seen some outrageous things said on here.
How about the hurtful and sick poems that "one of the boards finest" wrote on my behalf. ONE PERSON called them mean and nasty. One person.
Wrong. Carol killed that fact never will change, no more than the truth of my abortion will change. I killed. We both killed and those decisions can NEVER BE TAKEN BACK.
So you are wrong.
I dont hold it agaisnt anyone if they call me a killer. I killed my unborn child. But do I care what they really think of me today? Only that I show I walk in the light of Gods Word, that I show that I am a sheep in Gods pasture. I do not care if they judge me......I have been forgiven and that is the most important thing.
Like concerned said, all have fallen short.....every one of us.
I resent being called a killer. They do it to tell me I am not prolife and to belittle and put me down. I do not like it and I don't deserve it. Especially from people who support Paul Hill and those who kill abortion doctors. I have served God at the abortion clinics for 13 years, reaching out to women and helping them choose life and I resent being called a babykiller. It is a lie and not true.
Then you should have kept it to yourself about killing three.

reply from: carolemarie

I make value judgments on your words and actions. God does not say that I can not do this. I am sure you dont want to discuss it, for me you dont have to. That one quote speaks volumes for me.
I will tell you this........no Christian or person of faith in God would have selected that quote for a signature. And you selected it for a specific reason, that is obvious.
You posted this scripture.
James 4:11-12
11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor?
I am not slandering you. I am sharing opinion. And I do not judge the law......the law is perfect.
If you were a Christian you would quickly acknowledge God, you have not done that, so I assume that you are not my brother in Christ. I have every right to judge you for what you say and what you do here on this board. You ahve every right to question and judge me.
You do not understand the biblial meaning of judging. You obviously have a negative attitude towards it. Do you also hate judges and the jurys that sit in judgment of people that go before them?
You are right I have no right to judge your heart, Christ is the final judge........but I have every right to judge you on your behavior and what you post here.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS.
We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 5:11-13, says
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world.
But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person.
For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within?
God will judge those outside. "Purge the evil person from your midst."

It's about how God values life. In His eyes abortion before Roe is the same as abortion after Roe. It is a life killed. God will be just.
Concerned are you telling me I am bashing carole? I sure as heck hope you are not. I have defended her.
How dare you say EVERYONE IS BASHING HER AND THAT WE DONT GIVE A CRAP.
So you can say harsh things to make your point, but God forbid if anyone else does. LOL
And do you read others posts with the intention that it might apply to you?

He does have passion for the unborn. He calls it the way he sees it.
And for your information he has never harrassed me.
Would you change your presentation if people didnt like how you were coming across?
The right approach? What is the right approach? Your way is the only right approach? is that what you are saying?
Who here has the perfect approach?
Faithman puts it out there but so do others. Did you or anyone for that matter come to my defense when vexing told me to go get a rusty pipe and hurt myself?
NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ON THIS BOARD SAID ONE THING. So dont try to come across as being perfect in word and action because no body here is just that.
I have seen some outrageous things said on here.
How about the hurtful and sick poems that "one of the boards finest" wrote on my behalf. ONE PERSON called them mean and nasty. One person.
Wrong. Carol killed that fact never will change, no more than the truth of my abortion will change. I killed. We both killed and those decisions can NEVER BE TAKEN BACK.
So you are wrong.
I dont hold it agaisnt anyone if they call me a killer. I killed my unborn child. But do I care what they really think of me today? Only that I show I walk in the light of Gods Word, that I show that I am a sheep in Gods pasture. I do not care if they judge me......I have been forgiven and that is the most important thing.
Like concerned said, all have fallen short.....every one of us.
I resent being called a killer. They do it to tell me I am not prolife and to belittle and put me down. I do not like it and I don't deserve it. Especially from people who support Paul Hill and those who kill abortion doctors. I have served God at the abortion clinics for 13 years, reaching out to women and helping them choose life and I resent being called a babykiller. It is a lie and not true.
Then you should have kept it to yourself about killing three.
I tell the TRUTH to help women choose life and to give God the glory for what He did.
And frankly, your attitude toward women sucks and you need to hear the truth as well. God loves those women going into that clinic and He expects you to reach out in LOVE.
I

reply from: Jameberlin

You are the reason women are afraid to talk about their experiences. You are who gives the rest of us a bad name.
Keeping past sins a secret is a way of stuffing one more skeleton in the closet. It's not healthy for anyone, and it's no way to come to terms with one's past. It's counterproductive and it hurts people.
Had Carole always been so secretive about her abortions, it would probably have made her ministry to those women she counsels impossible to carry out.
Had ChurchMouse been so secretive, it would have stifled her faith and hindered her repentance and salvation.

reply from: Faramir

I admire you for the work you do and for being courageous enough to share your past for the sake of others.
You have endured much disgraceful bahaviour on this board, and the bullies and those who kiss up to them ought to be ashamed, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for such a miracle.
My hope is that decent and reasonable prolifers will eventually be attracted to this forum, and the others will either crawl back under the rocks from whence they came, or will see the light and stop being weenies.

reply from: carolemarie

I admire you for the work you do and for being courageous enough to share your past for the sake of others.
You have endured much disgraceful bahaviour on this board, and the bullies and those who kiss up to them ought to be ashamed, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for such a miracle.
My hope is that decent and reasonable prolifers will eventually be attracted to this forum, and the others will either crawl back under the rocks from whence they came, or will see the light and stop being weenies.
Sometimes I just stare at the post and think, well...what am I suppose to say to that? It isn't like I am refusing to change my position, (I have) it isn't like I advocate abortion, (I don't) and it isn't like I am not working to stop abortion (I do.)
I don't see why I have to choose between loving the baby and loving the woman. I refuse to not love either one of them! Love is the weapon God offeres us to combat evil. Not hate.
Jesus loved sinners so much He was publically identified with them to the point of dying for them. He was willing to love. Love is radical and dangerous and can change the world.....and they will know we are Christians by our love...

reply from: galen

Hello treasure, long time no read. How goes it in the world of you? I do hope that cancer nonsense isn't giving you too much jip.
________________________________________________-
i am doing well... i am working hard to get my grad students ready to lecture for me this semester.. i hope to be back teaching again the next term. the shelter is doing GREAT! i LOVE being back to work there even if its only on a part time basis.

reply from: Faramir

Here's another example for Mr. Yodavater and this one's a beauty:
But I'm sure the faithman enablers will justify this verbal molestation.
Does that make them as disgusting as faithman?
Just curious.

reply from: Banned Member

Faithman enablers? Faithman enablers?
Go watch some Bugs Bunny. Unwind.

reply from: Banned Member

CP is reasonable and supportive. Is this the same CP that compares the Word of God to a Chevy Chase movie?

reply from: Faramir

I don't think you should try to figure it out.
I'm beginning to think they are just rotten and evil.
Nobody with a heart would inflict such cruelty, applaud it, or excuse it.
Just continue being you and continue saving babies. Maybe they hate that you are able to save them without degrading the women involved.
Who knows. I'm not going to try to figure them out anymore myself, but I do know that what is going on here in the name of prolife and in the name of God is very disturbing, cruel, and unjust.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think you should try to figure it out.
I'm beginning to think they are just rotten and evil.
Nobody with a heart would inflict such cruelty, applaud it, or excuse it.
Just continue being you and continue saving babies. Maybe they hate that you are able to save them without degrading the women involved.
Who knows. I'm not going to try to figure them out anymore myself, but I do know that what is going on here in the name of prolife and in the name of God is very disturbing, cruel, and unjust.
Well, lets just ignore it and not get dragged down to that level of nastiness. I am going to use it as an opportunity to practice patiences and forgiveness. I knew when I let God use my past to help others that it would come at a cost, so I will be fine.

reply from: churchmouse

God has a plan and is using you. You just keep being a witness for Him, that is more important than ANYTHING ELSE, even the fight for the unborn.
Your past will affect others.........God will make sure of it.
That was uncalled for, but shows your true colors as usual.
This thread is completly personal for many. Things are said in a personal way.
And what do you base all this on? A hunch? So you think really there will be no justice in the next life......God will just sit down with Hitler and shoot the s___.
So murderers and rapists, and pediphiles, .........will sit down as friends with God?
The people that didnt deserve it were the unborn children that were killed and that is fact. God has forgiven both of us......but it does not change the things we have done in our lives. I killed my unborn and I want people to know it. I want people to know that even though I did such a horrendous act that there is hope, that God does forgive. But that the act I did had consequences........it took a human life, it devestated a good portion of my life. I killed my unborn child. And I dont think that if someone looked me straight in the eyes and said as such.......that it would mean that I am not pro-life. I dont think people should say it in a mean way......but facts are facts.
If you resent it then I am sorry.People responde to abortion in different ways. I want God to use this sin in my life for this cause. It isnt about me.......its about His plan, its about the unborn child. My suffering hopefully will glorify HIm......not me.

I do not support what Hill did either.....he also was a murderer. And I know from scripture he will get his just dues in the end.
I also have been working in the pro-life area for a long long time. And that is usually the first thing I tell woman. I KILLED MY UNBORN CHILD.
I stand at colleges with signs that read........I regret my abortion please ask me why?
Abortion kills, I killed there is no other way to say it.
That is my opinion, I am sure you do great work. We will have to agree to dissagree on this one.......and that is ok.
You are darn right He does. And we should reach out in love. But what about those women who have no faith in God.....that are not religious, that have no relationship with Christ? You have to try to reach them on another level. Medical science is clear about when life starts and what happens during an abortion. One need not be religious to know abortion is WRONG. They have to be told in no uncertain terms that abortion is murder and if they carry it out they are killing their child.
I was secretive before I got saved. Then I sat my kids down and told them the truth. My family knows.....because I work pro-life events. I have also talked to many of their friends about abortion. I have pro-life stickers on my car. Any opportunitiy to talk to people is great. I am just one of millions of people that work in the pro-life movement around the world. WE all have our own stories our own ways of coping and I dont think that there is only one approach except you cant ignore that truth.
What I think is cheap.......are people that dont call people out by names and talk in generalities on here. They hide.
If any of you think my position is wrong or that I am not fair to anyone.......TELL ME BUT USE MY NAME. You need not spare my feelings I'll tell you that.
Just because I dissagree with Caroles approach on this one thing........does not mean I do not think she is wrong or insincere.
What I see here are people that only go to bat for friends.
Didnt think at first there was this inner circle here but obviously there is.
.
You just have to keep diggin dont ya? Faithman enablers....?? Have the guts to at least call them by name faramir. If you find me disgusting just tell me.......I have not verbally gone after any pro-lifer here and I am not going to. You want people to fight.
This is absolutely ridicuous. You complain about people ganging up on carole.........what about me, when I have been attacked? Does it make a difference who we are before you go to bat for them?
Little late for that isnt it? What we are on page 5 of comments already. Was this thread worth it?........ It only help to divide us further on the important work for the unborn and being united about this cause.

reply from: 4given

Many things were specifically intended to instruct me. I am not above correction though. Seems to be more of a personal issue between posters that pertains only in part to those I publicly defend.

reply from: 4given

The people that didnt deserve it were the unborn children that were killed and that is fact. God has forgiven both of us......but it does not change the things we have done in our lives. I killed my unborn and I want people to know it. I want people to know that even though I did such a horrendous act that there is hope, that God does forgive. But that the act I did had consequences........it took a human life, it devestated a good portion of my life. I killed my unborn child. And I dont think that if someone looked me straight in the eyes and said as such.......that it would mean that I am not pro-life. I dont think people should say it in a mean way......but facts are facts.
If you resent it then I am sorry.People responde to abortion in different ways. I want God to use this sin in my life for this cause. It isnt about me.......its about His plan, its about the unborn child. My suffering hopefully will glorify HIm......not me.

reply from: 4given

.
You just have to keep diggin dont ya? Faithman enablers....?? Have the guts to at least call them by name faramir. If you find me disgusting just tell me.......I have not verbally gone after any pro-lifer here and I am not going to. You want people to fight.
This is absolutely ridicuous. You complain about people ganging up on carole.........what about me, when I have been attacked? Does it make a difference who we are before you go to bat for them?

reply from: 4given

Little late for that isnt it? What we are on page 5 of comments already. Was this thread worth it?........ It only help to divide us further on the important work for the unborn and being united about this cause.
Agreed. But hey- better late than never.. And it wasn't worth it, but it served its purpose.. When did you get involved in pro-life work? Are your children active? At what age did they become active? Do you go to clinics? How often? Do they join you? What material do you use?

reply from: 4given

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.
You may disagree with her views and methods, but her past should be off limits.
Do you remind your mother three times a day of her sins of fornication?Worthless,vile and petty fool.
Thanks for showing others your true character Vermin.

reply from: faithman

The people that didnt deserve it were the unborn children that were killed and that is fact. God has forgiven both of us......but it does not change the things we have done in our lives. I killed my unborn and I want people to know it. I want people to know that even though I did such a horrendous act that there is hope, that God does forgive. But that the act I did had consequences........it took a human life, it devestated a good portion of my life. I killed my unborn child. And I dont think that if someone looked me straight in the eyes and said as such.......that it would mean that I am not pro-life. I dont think people should say it in a mean way......but facts are facts.
If you resent it then I am sorry.People responde to abortion in different ways. I want God to use this sin in my life for this cause. It isnt about me.......its about His plan, its about the unborn child. My suffering hopefully will glorify HIm......not me.
Very well said Churchmouse.

reply from: Faramir

No. It reminds me that 3 human beings are dead. And it reminds me that so long as distinction exists between the born and the unborn, there is work to be done. So long as CarolMarie continues to make distinction between the born and the unborn the jabs will continue I am sure. So long as CarolMarie contends that a woman has a right to choose abortion in some instances she is an influence and encouragement to the pro-life with exceptions crowd. So long as her calling is to counsel and comfort to abortive women while making exceptions for some abortions, her integrity is in question.
You may disagree with her views and methods, but her past should be off limits.
Do you remind your mother three times a day of her sins of fornication?Worthless,vile and petty fool.
Thanks for showing others your true character faramir.
Explain to me why you have thusly attacked me. What is vile and petty and why?
And don't use my real name again. I am entiled to the privacy of a screen name like everyone else. Please edit your post. I have reported you to the forum, since this is your second offense.

reply from: Faramir

Good for you. You are a good example for the rest of us.

reply from: Faramir

I'm not sure what you're saying here 4given, but the difference between the two of us is that I have been defending a victim of continual bullying and vicious verbal molestation, and you have been defending the verbal molester.

reply from: Faramir

I was not referring to you, though you do seem to kiss up to faithman in spite of his vile behaviour.
In what way have you been attacked? Have you had your nose rubbed in your past sins? If so, I will speak up about it when I see it. If people are criticizing you because of your preachiness, that's a different story. Carolemarie can be preachy at times too, and it's irritating no matter who is doing the preaching, though she does it a lot less than you do.
Criticizing other posters for their arguments or for their irritating qualities is not on the same level of the cruelty of continually hammering someone about a past that is regretted and was shared to help others.
What faithman does is no less than verbal molestation, verbal abuse, and verbal assault. He would last 10 minutes on a moderated forum.
Those who look the other way, and especially those who defend him against those who criticize his abusiveness, are supporting his cruel behaviour.
If you want some names they include but are not necessarily limited to nancyu, yodavater, and 4given.
The worst of those three are nancyu and yodavater, since they do more than excuse and enable, but do their own share of knife sticking and twisting.

reply from: churchmouse

You have got to be kidding? That is not fair. Show me how I kiss up? Give examples please. I have never had a clash with faithman. Half the things you guys attribute to him I never saw. Must have been before I came here.
And how about you faramir......do you ever call anyone else out here other than faithman for his behavior? How about galen? Do you ever call her out when she said cruel and sick things to me? Or can she just say and do whatever she wants? You know whats going on here.....have you ever called vexing out? Tells me to take a rusty pipe and injure mysellf and no one called him out.
So get off just bashing faithman and wake up to what some of the others are saying. You say he wouldnt last on a moderated forum.......many here wouldnt last either. Obviously your focus is totally on faithman. Carole is an adult.....from what I can see she can certainly hold her own.
Oh please faramir.......if you cant see that galen and vexing have attacked me then.....boy I dont know what to say. Concerned and I go at it but its totally different and he doesnt attack in the way those two do it. He backs up what he says with concrete things and HE DOESNT NOT RUN FROM THE DISCUSSION. He stands up to the plate.
I could care less if people think I am preachy. If you love the Lord, no amount of scripture is to much. I could read Augustines posts all day long. If anyone stands on scriptures here its Augustine.
I will not compromise not talking about Christ. My faith comes first and everything else follows, including the abortion fight. It shapes everything I believe and do. It is who I am.
Yes I killed my unborn child, it was murder and it always will be murder......even though I have been forgiven. I witness to people about the fact that I did murder my child but that God saved me.
Why shouldnt I question someone that claims to be a Christian on what they say, especially if they contradict what the Word says. I am no expert but you dont have to be to understand the gospel.

reply from: Faramir

I told Galen I thought she was being too harsh, but your issue with Vexing is part your own doing for refusing to at least give the benefit of the doubt.
But I didn't follow those threads closely and I don't read many of your posts since they are so long, and often confusing, and often very preachy, and I don't need to hear your preaching. I hear a homily every week and your preaching is laced with error. I realize you believe as you do in good faith, but I don't agree with some of it, and there is a huge difference between witnessing, which can often be done without preaching, and with obnoxiously getting in the face of someone who is not presently interested in your information.
You have been here long enough to see that faithman is a vicious verbal molester. I'm incredulous if you haven't noticed that he is cruel and abusive, and that he doubles his loathesomeness by doing it all in the name of the babies and God.
You may label yourself a "killer" or a "murderer" if you like. I choose not to, and I do not believe that any repentent post abortive woman deserves such a name.
If THEY do, then we ALL do. We are all part to blame and we all have a share in it, but the woman is the one left holding the bag, and to focus only on her is unjust and unfair.

reply from: churchmouse

Then you did it in PM because you did not call her on it publically, not that I ever saw.
The benefit of the doubt? You mean cave in?
I never said a hateful word, never called him a name but stuck to my position that God creates us the way we are for a reason. H wouldnt let it go.
He attacked me verbally and said all sort of vile things. The rusty pipe is only one of many. No one said one thing about his behavior.
I dont buy that for one minute, sorry. I think you follow a lot of threads. Do you read Concerned and Augustines posts? They are sometimes long as well or do you just avoid mine?
If you think what I say scripturally is wrong.....then show me my error. I have no problem with that.
I dont think I am obnoxious. I dont think I get in the face of anyone. I debate and discuss. Dont you do the same?
What do you want people to do? It is obvious that you certainly want him banned because you hate him. Is it his language that you find offensive or the content of his message? Are you saying he doenst have passion for the unborn, that he isnt really pro-life?
Do you want people to yell, and write abusive things back to him? What do you want to see happen faramir?
I did not say that any woman deserved to be called a murderer in daily conversation. But the fact is faramir...........any woman that killed her unborn child is technically a murderer....in Gods eyes. Now you can repent and ask forgiveness and He will forgive.........but that does not change THE FACTS. I murdered my unborn child.
I can understand why woman do not want this label.....they think if somehow they are not called on what they did, IT WILL GO AWAY.
I would never and havent called Carole a killer or a murderer. But facts are facts......you dont have to say it for something to be true. If she doesnt like it....I wont use it. Obviouslly she has a problem with it, I dont.
We arent all to blame. There are godly people that are living godly lives that are walking the walk and talking the talk. We all have a share in it......but dont say we ALL are to blame for what is going on.
Woman have the upper hand in all of this. We can have sex or say no to sex. We can have the baby, or kill the baby. We can kick the father of our children to the curb if we want to. Fathers have no right to their unborn children. Statistics show that most woman have multiple abortions.....woman are making the choice to take that chance of getting pregnant. They have no one to blame but themselves. Its their body remember? They hold the bag alright.
The focus for most of this should be on them and the deicison they make...because that decision will cause death of an unborn child. We have to show them that if they go through with it........they will murder their child. They will be a murderer. NOUN
As for post abortive woman....we need the love and forgiveness that only Christ can give. We need to step up to the plate and tell others.......in the name of God.......what we have gone through. Nothing captures someones attention when you say I killed my unborn child.......but God forgave me.

reply from: yoda

I've got a suggestion.... let's just let this thread disappear on page 535.

reply from: Jameberlin

CM, i think faramirs problem with fman is he does use the term killer and murderer in an abusive way toward Carole, it's no longer a statement of fact, when he replies to every positive thing she says with "so says the killer of three". As if her abortions make her unable to actually be an effective pro-life witness. He is also rude and boorish to other posters who have never had abortions, but who have the audacity to disagree with him on anything. His words are not kind, and he is not understanding or loving of his fellow man in the least (this was my immediate impression of him from his posts). There is a point, IMO, when one goes far beyond the normal "statement of fact" and becomes abusive, it's my opinion that fman does this more often than not.
You're right, every woman deals with abortion differently. You and Carole both admit to the killing of your children, so why is it suddenly necessary that one of you is constantly barraged with abusive speech? Her abortions do not make her valid points any less valid, neither does yours do this for you, this should be recognized.
Caroles abortions shouldn't be a constant negative factor, when she is doing good work now.
Your witnessing of your faith, should not be a constant negative factor, when you are doing good work through it.
I hope i'm making some sense. It's difficult, to see the reason with all those stones flying (i'm guilty too, i know).

reply from: churchmouse

I began around 2000 working in this field. I work with Right To Life in Phoenix and Silent No More groups. I also picket and go to conventions with both groups. I also volunteer at my local Crisis P Center.
No my children are not active, they are beginning their careers and unfortunately have no interest in what I am doing. I am witnessing to them and one day God willing they will join in the fight.
I go to clinics usually once or twice a week....sometimes more.....sometimes less.
Its funny......I did this taped interview for a a group that is going to distribute it nationally. Its just now getting out there. But I had it on my TV and my son put it in not knowing what it was. I came in while he was watching it.
His mouth dropped and he gasped for a breath when he saw my interview. He was shocked. LOL He said "mom.......I knew you were involved but gee this much?:"
The tape is wonderful.......and I am proud to say I think he thinks it is too. God is working in his life. A lot of good information was in the tape......hopefully it sunk in.
Hey I havent heard that one since junior high.

reply from: 4given

Are they "pro-life"?
What material or approach do you use?
Trust that it has. I know my children understand abortion. I ask them hypothetical abortion related questions from time to time to see it from their perspective. I trust in their innocence. (Mine are obviously younger than yours) I don't believe the "good information" goes unnoticed. Guilt and callous indifference (immorality) tends to reject the reality of abortion. It sunk in.

reply from: 4given

I'm not sure what you're saying here 4given, but the difference between the two of us is that I have been defending a victim of continual bullying and vicious verbal molestation, and you have been defending the verbal molester.
Creep!

reply from: churchmouse

What approach do I use?
The truth.
The truth about what medical science has to say about life and the truth about what God says about all life.
I always take my bible and brochures I get through Right To Life and Silent No More.
I do NOT believe in violence. We hold signs inviting conversations and we hold graphic signs as well. Many state what PP really is. I talk in a firm but loving way to pre-and post abortive woman. We also talk to a lot of men as well. I also never go alone.
Do we get loud........some pray loud enough to be heard.

reply from: carolemarie

Do you talk to many women at the clinic?
What works best for you guys? Do you work with a CPC that is close by?
Do you guys have post-abortion info to pass out as well?
We had a gathering at the clinic out here. No signs except the "I regret ones" and it was wonderful. The first one we had about 12 women sharing in front of the clinic. A truck containing a pregnant 13 year old pulled up to the clinic, we were
singing and the driver slowed to listen and the sidewalk counselor was able to talk to the family, they took information but still went in. This was the girls 2nd pregnancy. She kept the first baby. So we had a permit, and shared our testimony speaking into the mike, and she came out crying and her parents relented and she got to leave. We were so thrilled. Another benefit was one of the mean nurses, this hard blonde who was really hostile was leaving for th day and drove by and stared at us, she was visably shaken to see so many women with those signs. She started softening and talking to me. She has stopped and asked for prayer, so we are praying for her. ... we are becoming friends....
The second time we had just 4 of us with the Operation Outcry signs. (I like the SNM ones better because you can see them farther away) But we were the only ones there that day, no preaching, no other signs, just us and our signs.
There were 4 women who changed their minds after seeing us. They stopped on the way out and talked to us. All we did was stand there and pray. We called it the Silent Witness.... It was incredible.
Those signs are powerful...It would be so cool to get 30 women to come hold those signs and surround that clinic! While you can ignore one of us with the sign, 30 is harder to ignore!
Have you had gatherings at the clinic?

reply from: churchmouse

carole..........
Not many at the clinics. More at fairs, events, schools, colleges and universitites. Sometimes when we picket we talk to people.
We mainly hold graphic signs at the clinics that show EXACTLY what they are going to do. We also pray of course. You have to stay so far back as you well know, which is ridiculous. AT our boothes we have everything a woman could want... all sorts of information is available. We also have hands on stuff for adults and children that show fetal development. We give free tapes out......about what science has to say....we give out stuff about PP, also about Doctors Assisted suicide. Silent No More information as well. We also work with all the Crisis Pregnancy Centers around our area. Did bottle drive last year.
WHAT A VICTORY. An absolute victory Carole. Did she quit her job there yet?
Yes we have had gatherings but we usually are there during daytime and a lot of women work.......wont leave kids at home at nap time. We have a lot of older CAtholic men and woman that come which is awesome.
We need more people.
I dont know if you remember hearing my story of when I picketed the PP Celebration of Roe in January. There were about thirty of us and we lined up across the front of this posh resort in Scottsdale where they were having it. I mean limos were lined up bringing these pro-aborts. Even Janet Napolitano (our evil governor) and her gurus went by us. We had terribly graphic signs outside. It was a busy street......and people got so upset when they saw us there with signs, there were three accidents out front. These women were decked to the nines.
We stood there for six hours. It was awesome the honks we got from the people going by. This police officer came out and whispered to me that.....if he were not in uniform he would stand with us. That if we got tired and needed drinks to let him know he would bring them to us. I think it would be awesome to get a hundred people next year.
I tell you where I love working the most. Universities. I usually hold the I regret my abortion please ask me why.......sign.
I have had awesome conversations.

reply from: carolemarie

I like doing the booths as well. Those are great!
The best was our booth at a state NOW convention....I had a table next to a group that advocated and raised money for minor bypass abortions and we were put right in front of the conference room, so the conference goers had to walk past us everytime they had a break or a session. i was to intimidated to put a graphic chopped up dead baby sign, so I chickened out and put a I am a person sign on the table, with all our abortion hurts women info. They were a bit taken back....we had quite a few tell us they were prolife. Quite a few called us names and were very bothered. I gave them all homebaked chocolate chip cookies and was extra kind to them. We had a lot of productive chats.....
But what I like the best is when someone changes their mind about abortion and I get to help them and then see that sweet baby. That is the best

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

God is Love; His Law is based on Love God, Love your neighbor. Love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love the brethren you can "know" that you have eternal life. We must all dwell together peacefully and in harmony forever; that is why the law of Love is the only issue that decides if you live eternally or not.
I'm not intentionally mean or rude to another for gratitutious pleasure seeking reasons (enjoying being a bully). I do flat out tell people if I believe they are engaging in inappropriate behavior; I'll suggest they are not quite right in the mind or motive area. But I'm not putting stumbling blocks in front of others to make them fall. The goal is for all of us to assist and raise each other up to eternal life. (After making that last comment, I should add that I've been accused of slapping Jesus in the face because His already "completed work" means we should not be putting forth any effort on our part (gosh, that would be work, trying to earn our own salvation; bad, bad, bad; well, according to certain "Christians" anyway.) We are required to become Love, it is commanded. God is Love. God commands, "Be perfect, for I am perfect." Perfection means becoming Love.

reply from: churchmouse

We did not cause anything. They were driving we were not. If they can't drive better than that in a parking lot....then they shouldnt be driving.
Hey those pro-choicers have the bucks......they can afford a little paint job.
They were fender benders.......but nevertheless.....the women were in a hurry to get past our signs. LOL
No one was hurt. We just got a few chuckles out of it.
We have a womans expo in Phoenix that rocks. They usually put us in the same area as PP but not to close. Their booth is nothing....one person sitting there looking bored. Our booth is huge...we have a television going with tapes of sonograms.....we have informations, hands on material. We usually give kids or anyone for that matter the small three month plastic fetuses for free. They come with a card that tells what the baby is doing at that stage. The Right To Life office last year got a call from the head of the Expo and they said, we couldnt hand out the little babies........get this........THEY WERE TO CONTRAVERSIAL.
Can you imagine that? We all handed them out anyway. I am sure PP complained. None of us cared if we got arrested.
This year we had some really vocal young girls like around 16. One girl came up and said, "Im proud of the three abortions I have had, so what do ya think of that?'
I said why are you proud? She said well first off children should not be raising children. LOL
I said "honey, children shouldnt be having sex either but it looks like you certainly think your old enough to do that." She ran. I mean she ran. Her friend looked at me and said, "I'm so sorry."
This girl will hit the wall one day when she realizes what she has done.

reply from: 4given

Better yet, round up about 2 or more individuals to stand with pictures of aborted children. (or some facts about the abortion risks etc., as women are denied simple decency or "technicalities"(as described to a female I know when inquired about it) such as Informed Consent. Many women that kill their children call themselves "Christian". Wherever one shares the truth, church or abortuary... fine with them- (the unborn) A potential for blessing with her/him that may believe they are justified in doing so.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

What on earth is a "minor bypass abortion?" I've never heard the term before.

reply from: churchmouse

So by your logic.......no body should do anything as far as picketing or holding signs anywhere to show the inhumanity of abortion.
You want us to just go away. Galen said you are against abortion. Bull crap you arent agaisnt abortion.......you defend the enemy EVERY CHANCE YOU GET. You are a pro-abort.
And what might our signs have done, who knows? Maybe it made a pro-abort think about what really is going on. We made the newspapers.......who knows what happens. OUR PRESENCE IS A STATEMENT, one you obviously dont like.
You Pro-life.......roflmao

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I'm sorry, CaroleMarie, but I find no joy whatsoever in knowing that there is a 13-year-old girl out there with TWO children. Did you speak to her about adoption as a good option for her?? The thought of a child that young bearing and trying to raise two little children, even with help from her parents, really saddens me. She should have been encouraged to give BOTH children up for adoption so that she could complete her high school education, grow up like a normal teenager and wait until she is a married adult to have children to keep.

reply from: faithman

I'm sorry, CaroleMarie, but I find no joy whatsoever in knowing that there is a 13-year-old girl out there with TWO children. Did you speak to her about adoption as a good option for her?? The thought of a child that young bearing and trying to raise two little children, even with help from her parents, really saddens me. She should have been encouraged to give BOTH children up for adoption so that she could complete her high school education, grow up like a normal teenager and wait until she is a married adult to have children to keep.
A pregnant 13 year old should have been reported to the authorities to be investigated for sexual abuse. It is mandatory for all health care workers to report the reasonably suspitioned sexual activity of minors.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

That is quite true - if someone outside the clinic talked to her and found out that she was 13, did they report it to the police? Did her PARENTS report her pregnancies? Did the hospital where she gave birth the first time (at age 11 or 12?????) report the situation?
You cannot blame the clinic for not reporting this case. She didn't abort her first pregnancy. She didn't abort her SECOND pregnancy. Where were the health care workers when she was pregnant the first time around, possibly had prenatal care and obviously gave birth SOMEWHERE and had to get a birth certificate.
Were social workers involved? Medical Assistance? SOMEBODY???
Sounds like the entire system messed up on this one, starting with the poor little girl's parents. Maybe the parents knew something about the father of her babies, such as his being a relative or friend.

reply from: yoda

What's he talking about, the screen name he used at that other forum?

reply from: yoda

Aren't you the one who said some things were "none of your business"?

reply from: Faramir

Can't let this get away...

reply from: galen

So by your logic.......no body should do anything as far as picketing or holding signs anywhere to show the inhumanity of abortion.
You want us to just go away. Galen said you are against abortion. Bull crap you arent agaisnt abortion.......you defend the enemy EVERY CHANCE YOU GET. You are a pro-abort.
And what might our signs have done, who knows? Maybe it made a pro-abort think about what really is going on. We made the newspapers.......who knows what happens. OUR PRESENCE IS A STATEMENT, one you obviously dont like.
You Pro-life.......roflmao
______________________________________________________
you know Chm... once again you think you know all...a nd condemn all.... you don't get to say who is and who is not prolife... just as you don't get to say who is and who is not Christian...
unless you want people judging you in turn...

reply from: churchmouse

Galen to the rescue!!!!
You know galen, vexing shows no signs of being pro-life. And I can too judge whether I think someone is pro-life or not.
I dont know it all galen. But I do know this......what it means to be a Christian. I know what Christ says. And anyone that does not believe in HIm is NOT a Christian. Anyone that calls what he says lies, is NOT a Christian.
You have every right to judge me, go ahead. But provide me scripture that tells me my error, dont just run .

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg

reply from: churchmouse

I JUST LOVE THAT PICTURE FAITHMAN.

reply from: carolemarie

Vexing is prolife now. She changed her mind based on discrimination issues. I don't know why you missed that post.

reply from: churchmouse

Carole.........oh it sounds like it doesnt it?
I am standing there picketing a PP event and following the laws......its not our fault that the PP gals got into a few fender benders. But oh no, vexing thinks we shouldnt be there. God forbid that any pro-lifer would picket and stand up for the unborn......something vexing obviously find offensive.
So carole, I dont buy it.

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg
If you would like a free sample of posters and cards, then PM me a snail mail address. You can become IAAP special field agent in your area. The offer stands good to anyone who would like a sample.

reply from: carolemarie

Carole.........oh it sounds like it doesnt it?
I am standing there picketing a PP event and following the laws......its not our fault that the PP gals got into a few fender benders. But oh no, vexing thinks we shouldnt be there. God forbid that any pro-lifer would picket and stand up for the unborn......something vexing obviously find offensive.
So carole, I dont buy it.
She doesn't have to like everything you do to be prolife....people can oppose a picket for example, yet still be prolife. Just that they see things differently....
She objected to causing car wrecks, which is not a good thing to have happen.

reply from: faithman

Carole.........oh it sounds like it doesnt it?
I am standing there picketing a PP event and following the laws......its not our fault that the PP gals got into a few fender benders. But oh no, vexing thinks we shouldnt be there. God forbid that any pro-lifer would picket and stand up for the unborn......something vexing obviously find offensive.
So carole, I dont buy it.
She doesn't have to like everything you do to be prolife....people can oppose a picket for example, yet still be prolife. Just that they see things differently....
She objected to causing car wrecks, which is not a good thing to have happen.
The prolifers did not cause the wreck. That was caused by the in compitence of the drivers. That is like saying bill boards cause wrecks. They don't cause wrecks either. And the she is a he. But of course when ones life is a lie, liers will run to defend you. Vexing is no where near being pro-life. That is just a s big a lie as it being a she.

reply from: churchmouse

So carole we were wrong to stand with signs and do it in a peaceful way? We shouldnt be there because we might cause accidents.
I'm sorry I wont let not even one accident stop me from standing with my signs.
GET THIS CAROLE........WE DID NOT CAUSE THE WRECKS.
We stood there like you do when you hand out your chocolates and bibles. What if someone was so traumatized at what you gave them......they got in a wreck on the way home?
Are you responsible? And if you think you would be.......then why do you do it? We all better stop.
Your act of love could cause harm.........if you say because we stood there protesting PP CELEBRATING ABORTION WAS WRONG.
For crying out loud.
We were there for a reason......if they cant drive then so be it. We should not be held accountable for their accidents.
And vexing........meant it like vexing meant it.

reply from: yoda

In the light of the first amendment, everyone gets to "say" that.
Doesn't seem to matter if one wants to be judged or not, people on this forum (and elsewhere) are going to do it anyway. Having an opinion, and expressing it, are part and parcel of the tradition of our society.

reply from: yoda

That's like asking a rape victim if the rape would've happened it they had not been there......

reply from: galen

I dont know it all galen. But I do know this......what it means to be a Christian. I know what Christ says. And anyone that does not believe in HIm is NOT a Christian. Anyone that calls what he says lies, is NOT a Christian.
You have every right to judge me, go ahead. But provide me scripture that tells me my error, dont just run .
__________________________________________
i can judge you very well and have no need to 'provide scripture'...God gave me a brain... and unlike you i happen to know how to use it.
and vexing seems to be more PL than you, at least she knows where she stands and how she stands on this issue... you just use it as an excuse to persecute others... kinda like faithman...

reply from: galen

In the light of the first amendment, everyone gets to "say" that.
Doesn't seem to matter if one wants to be judged or not, people on this forum (and elsewhere) are going to do it anyway. Having an opinion, and expressing it, are part and parcel of the tradition of our society.
i was being facetious yoda...

reply from: carolemarie

So carole we were wrong to stand with signs and do it in a peaceful way? We shouldnt be there because we might cause accidents.
I'm sorry I wont let not even one accident stop me from standing with my signs.
GET THIS CAROLE........WE DID NOT CAUSE THE WRECKS.
We stood there like you do when you hand out your chocolates and bibles. What if someone was so traumatized at what you gave them......they got in a wreck on the way home?
Are you responsible? And if you think you would be.......then why do you do it? We all better stop.
Your act of love could cause harm.........if you say because we stood there protesting PP CELEBRATING ABORTION WAS WRONG.
For crying out loud.
We were there for a reason......if they cant drive then so be it. We should not be held accountable for their accidents.
And vexing........meant it like vexing meant it.
Did I say I agreed with her on picketing? I didn't have a problem with it. But if someone doesn't agree with picketing that doesn't mean they are not prolife....
I believe Vexing is prolife. She holds different views then I do, but we agree on that babies shouldn't be killed. I am glad she has changed her position and you should be glad as well....personal issues aside, that is a very positive thing.

reply from: yoda

That's like asking a rape victim if the rape would've happened it they had not been there......
Your analogy doesn't fly.Driving a car is a perfectly ordinary activity. Rape is not.
The analogy is perfectly valid. Trying to run over someone is not a "perfectly ordinary activity" either, is it? Oh wait.... I shouldn't assume how you will answer that......

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg

reply from: churchmouse

So those that are pro-life shouldnt hold the signs.....or go anywhere that the public can see them for fear of causing accidents?
Oh your pro-life alright. LOL
Of course......you dont know the proper scriptures to provide in your defense. You simply are embarrassed obviously of your faith......or you just dont know that much about Christianity because any knowledgeable Christian would jump at the chance to show Gods Word in the light of anything.
God gives everyone a brain.....he gave Hitler a brain. So what does that prove Mary? And if He gave you a brain......then you should use it in HIS DEFENSE wouldnt ya think?
We might not always say things in the correct way sometimes.....but Faithman stands on scripture mary, something you wouldnt know because you obviously do not rely on the Word for your worldview.
Vexing pro-life? Where? How?
I know vexing hates......Christians and takes pot shots at our God ......maybe thats why you guys get along so well. LOL
vexing said
And what was your comment about me finding a rusty pipe and injuring myself with it? What was that vexing?
And mary you want to come across as this fair and rational minded person......what do you think about the rusty pipe comment vexing made towards me?
Oh I cant wait to hear this one.
So pleazzze vexing, you have attacked, you have used violent language to get your point across. And if anyone likes to talk about genetalia.......its you.

reply from: carolemarie

Churchmouse--
You were the one who brought up the fender benders cause because of the signs, with a bit of glee that so much commotion was caused. Don't fault anyone for assuming that the wrecks were caused by the signs, since you posted that the wrecks happen because you were there.

reply from: carolemarie

She didn't want the abortion, her family did....I find that sad

reply from: carolemarie

What on earth is a "minor bypass abortion?" I've never heard the term before.
It is shorthand for a minor going to court to obtain permission to get an abortion and bypassing the parental notification laws.

reply from: galen

i think any comment made to or about Churchmouse is perfectly valid... especially as she thinks she knows it all...
believe me Churchmouse, my backround in catholic theology is far more extensive than your 7 years or so of 'beliveing'.....
i also know that anyone can twist anything that is written by anyone to suit thier own purpose..
take your example of Hiltler... he professed to know God.. and gods and all sorts of things, and used them to justify himself at every turn... same as you do.
i find it especially telling that you continually take things from the Bible out of context to proove your own warped sense of the world.
i refuse to play that game with you simply because it DOES make a mockery of God's word.

reply from: galen

you know Chm.. i can actually admire faithman at turns... but yu... sorry every tale you tell has some sort of twisted way that you attempt to proove you are morally superior to every other person on the planet.
you came here and basicly blasted each person, and then turned around and brown nosed the ones you thought were'in charge'...
then turned on some of them too.
you remind me of someone who has no self esteem and must seek the approval of others in order to fell justified at being alive. then when sufficiently fortified by thier ''adoration'' you backstab those you think are weak.. on in need of your 'guidance'.
newsflash....i have not met many people that i respect as little as i respect you...
in fact i have yet to meet someone who really does respect you or your opinions...such as they are... and thats pretty sad, when you think about it... i can even find a bit of respect for FM... and i just can't find any for you.

reply from: faithman

Oh my gosh!! I am loosing my spot at the bottom of the totem. Must work harder!!!

reply from: Agape

His tenacity is admirable.

reply from: churchmouse

I do not know it all but i can tell a fake Christian when I see one.
Oh please. Puff yourself up all you want, that is important to you isnt it? That your the head cheerleader, the resident scholar. WHY DONT YOU PUT YOUR CATHOLIC THEOLGY TO PRACTICE GALEN AND SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG SCRIPTURALLY.
You wont back any of your worldview up with scripture mary. Nada. None.
And you are judging my heart something those scriptures you say you know says you cant do.
I was born into a Christian family, but my REAL WALK DID NOT START UNTIL 2001. I accepted Christ in name only when I was 13.
Go ahead and puff yourself up, but from what i have seen, you show no signs of what you say, especially put into actions here on this forum. If you did, your fruits would not have produced half of what you say here.....nor do your poems show the love of Christ. Isnt that what we are to strive for? Perfection in Christ.
No galen......You dont fool me.
they sure can and you do it well.
There is no way to twist the gospel. None. It is impossible. I accept the scriptures for what they say.....you on the other hand seem to have a problem doing that. Its either because you dont know, or you wont do it or the Holy spirit has not convicted you.
Most people profess to know God, so what? Because you stand in a garage, that doesnt make you a car does it? BEcause some one sits in church.......does that make one a Christian? Only God can judge the heart.......but fruits are a result and one indication that someone is a mature and practicing Christian. Hilter had no fruits and he said negative things about Christianity.
Again and again I ask you to provide proof of what you say. BUT YOU CANT. You wont, why? Show me my error instead of whinning that I do not know what I am saying. I welcome the debate, the challenge. SHOW ME.
The fact is galen, you do not know or this would be a piece of cake and you would want me to know my error as a Christian. You dont. You do not show Christian love or you would want to do just that to show me where I might be wrong.
You refuse because you do not know and that is obvious. You couldnt provide it for doctor assisted suicide and you can for anything else obviously.
Do you think I care ? Because I am one of few that actually challenge you....and see right through you. You are a hateful person and your poems showed the depth of what you will say and do when your back is agaisnt the wall on an issue.
."
Do you think I care galen? Coming from you........
So you discuss me in private do you ? lol......how sweet. Well you do have an agenda that is for sure. Again show Christian love mary. Even if a person does not show it to you......you are to what? What are you supposed to do? You dont know.........go read the scriptures.
I have not once called you and name, said anything vile about your person or your heart.
You on the other hand.......are the master manipulator. It wont work with me, so you are wasting your time if you think I care.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think Churchmouse is a fake Christian or necessarily wrong about things. The way she post things can come across in an attack mode, but I am not sure she is intending that.
The thing is that not everyone agrees with her POV, in alot of ways it is too narrow--like all Christians should be doing prolife stuff. That isn't true. Only the ones who God calls should be doing that.
And I am glad she is doing something, but some of the stories worry me. If a sixteen year old came up to my table and said she didn't regret her abortions, I wouldn't attack her, the truth is she is coming there because she is hurting or she would have no reason to share that information.
I pray alot for God to give me the ability to hear each persons soul cry, because it is radically different from what their mouth says...and you need to reach that persons true self....
Kindness and patiences and using I statements works very well in reaching a heart.

reply from: faithman

You Are just simply wrong on this one.Pro-life is not a "calling" it is an issue. An issue you may address according to your calling , but one that must be addressed by all. It is life and death. If you are a pastor, then address it from a pastorial perspective. If one is called to helps, then they need to "helps" personhood get passed and children be protected from killers. This is the mistake the biblically ignorant make on a regular basis, some willingly so. The scripture tells us that if we know it is right to do something and we don't, it is sin. The "church" has been acting in a sinful cowardly way for far to long, and post like this gives them an excuse to keep acting that way. If we as the church continue to ignore the least among us [the innocent womb child] then we ignore the one who's preborn image they bear. "If you do it to the least of my brothern, you do it unto me".

reply from: carolemarie

Everyone can't do everything. We are called to specific areas of ministry.

reply from: churchmouse

She needed to hear it. And hopefully what I said she will think about. I was not cruel and said it calmly and I did not yell.
Anyone that has abortions........and stands there looking proud as punch, deserves some touch love. Her friend even apologized.
I did no say anything that was not the truth. I do not regret one word.
For those of you that do not know what carole is referring to......
I was working a pro-life booth at our womens expo this year and two girls marched up to the table. She looked at the stuff we had on the table, I said hi and she proceeded to tell me that she was pro-abortion that she had had multiples ones, that if she got pregnant again she would also get another.
I asked her why, didnt she know it was killing, taking a life.
She said........I'll tell you why. CHILDREN SHOULDNT BE HAVING CHILDREN.
I looked at her calmly and said, but your a child and having sex....obviously you feel you are old enough to do that. Then she ran.
Dont take back one word.

reply from: faithman

You Are just simply wrong on this one.Pro-life is not a "calling" it is an issue. An issue you may address according to your calling , but one that must be addressed by all. It is life and death. If you are a pastor, then address it from a pastorial perspective. If one is called to helps, then they need to "helps" personhood get passed and children be protected from killers. This is the mistake the biblically ignorant make on a regular basis, some willingly so. The scripture tells us that if we know it is right to do something and we don't, it is sin. The "church" has been acting in a sinful cowardly way for far to long, and post like this gives them an excuse to keep acting that way. If we as the church continue to ignore the least among us [the innocent womb child] then we ignore the one who's preborn image they bear. "If you do it to the least of my brothern, you do it unto me".

reply from: faithman

well put
You Are just simply wrong on this one.Pro-life is not a "calling" it is an issue. An issue you may address according to your calling , but one that must be addressed by all. It is life and death. If you are a pastor, then address it from a pastorial perspective. If one is called to helps, then they need to "helps" personhood get passed and children be protected from killers. This is the mistake the biblically ignorant make on a regular basis, some willingly so. The scripture tells us that if we know it is right to do something and we don't, it is sin. The "church" has been acting in a sinful cowardly way for far to long, and post like this gives them an excuse to keep acting that way. If we as the church continue to ignore the least among us [the innocent womb child] then we ignore the one who's preborn image they bear. "If you do it to the least of my brothern, you do it unto me".

reply from: sweet

if you murder someone you should automatically EXPECT the worst treatment.......not to be pampered.
i tend to not call bad names or talk bad to a murderer, a thief, or a liar.......because i am not flawless. i'm no better than they are.

reply from: carolemarie

For Churchmouse:
What was the point of your booth? To reach out to those who had abortions or to tell everyone the truth about abortion? In other words, was this a RTL thing or a SNM thing?
First of all , she was sixteen. She was challenging you because you made her uncomfortable. You could have shared how abortion hurt you and why and allowed her the space to respond. Instead you took a cheap shot.
I think you could treat a 16 year old with a little more kindness and empathy.
Don't you guys try to help women who had abortions? Or just add to the hurt?

reply from: carolemarie

well put
You Are just simply wrong on this one.Pro-life is not a "calling" it is an issue. An issue you may address according to your calling , but one that must be addressed by all. It is life and death. If you are a pastor, then address it from a pastorial perspective. If one is called to helps, then they need to "helps" personhood get passed and children be protected from killers. This is the mistake the biblically ignorant make on a regular basis, some willingly so. The scripture tells us that if we know it is right to do something and we don't, it is sin. The "church" has been acting in a sinful cowardly way for far to long, and post like this gives them an excuse to keep acting that way. If we as the church continue to ignore the least among us [the innocent womb child] then we ignore the one who's preborn image they bear. "If you do it to the least of my brothern, you do it unto me".
God calls out the people He wants to work on this. He sends others to China.
Each of us is to do what God needs us to do. Being a Christian is following Jesus, not ralling around the right cause...
And God moves people! I was really involved in prolife and now God has moved me to another area where He needs me to serve. There is a time and season for everything.
The pastor's job is to teach us to walk closer with God, how to live the life of faith. It isn't to rally us to vote for the candidate they life best .....

reply from: galen

Mark 12
Et cœpit illis in parabolis loqui: Vineam pastinavit homo, et circumdedit sepem, et fodit lacum, et ædificavit turrim, et locavit eam agricolis, et peregre profectus est. 2 Et misit ad agricolas in tempore servum ut ab agricolis acciperet de fructu vineæ. 3 Qui apprehensum eum ceciderunt, et dimiserunt vacuum. 4 Et iterum misit ad illos alium servum: et illum in capite vulneraverunt, et contumeliis affecerunt. 5 Et rursum alium misit, et illum occiderunt: et plures alios: quosdam cædentes, alios vero occidentes. 6 Adhuc ergo unum habens filium carissimum, et illum misit ad eos novissimum, dicens: Quia reverebuntur filium meum. 7 Coloni autem dixerunt ad invicem: Hic est hæres: venite, occidamus eum: et nostra erit hæreditas. 8 Et apprehendentes eum, occiderunt: et ejecerunt extra vineam. 9 Quid ergo faciet dominus vineæ? Veniet, et perdet colonos, et dabit vineam aliis. 10 Nec scripturam hanc legistis: Lapidem quem reprobaverunt ædificantes, hic factus est in caput anguli: 11 a Domino factum est istud, et est mirabile in oculis nostris? 12 Et quærebant eum tenere: et timuerunt turbam: cognoverunt enim quoniam ad eos parabolam hanc dixerit. Et relicto eo abierunt.
13 Et mittunt ad eum quosdam ex pharisæis, et herodianis, ut eum caperent in verbo. 14 Qui venientes dicunt ei: Magister, scimus quia verax es, et non curas quemquam: nec enim vides in faciem hominum, sed in veritate viam Dei doces. Licet dari tributum Cæsari, an non dabimus? 15 Qui sciens versutiam illorum, ait illos: Quid me tentatis? afferte mihi denarium ut videam. 16 At illi attulerunt ei. Et ait illis: Cujus est imago hæc, et inscriptio? Dicunt ei: Cæsaris. 17 Respondens autem Jesus dixit illis: Reddite igitur quæ sunt Cæsaris, Cæsari: et quæ sunt Dei, Deo. Et mirabantur super eo.
18 Et venerunt ad eum sadducæi, qui dicunt resurrectionem non esse: et interrogabant eum, dicentes: 19 Magister, Moyses nobis scripsit, ut si cujus frater mortuus fuerit, et dimiserit uxorem, et filios non reliquerit, accipiat frater ejus uxorem ipsius, et resuscitet semen fratri suo. 20 Septem ergo fratres erant: et primus accepit uxorem, et mortuus est non relicto semine. 21 Et secundus accepit eam, et mortuus est: et nec iste reliquit semen. Et tertius similiter. 22 Et acceperunt eam similiter septem: et non reliquerunt semen. Novissima omnium defuncta est et mulier. 23 In resurrectione ergo cum resurrexerint, cujus de his erit uxor? septem enim habuerunt eam uxorem. 24 Et respondens Jesus, ait illis: Nonne ideo erratis, non scientes Scripturas, neque virtutem Dei? 25 Cum enim a mortuis resurrexerint, neque nubent, neque nubentur, sed sunt sicut angeli in cælis. 26 De mortuis autem quod resurgant, non legistis in libro Moysi, super rubum, quomodo dixerit illi Deus, inquiens: Ego sum Deus Abraham, et Deus Isaac, et Deus Jacob? 27 Non est Deus mortuorum, sed vivorum. Vos ergo multum erratis.
28 Et accessit unus de scribis, qui audierat illos conquirentes, et videns quoniam bene illis responderit, interrogavit eum quod esset primum omnium mandatum. 29 Jesus autem respondit ei: Quia primum omnium mandatum est: Audi Israël, Dominus Deus tuus, Deus unus est: 30 et diliges Dominum Deum tuum ex tota corde tuo, et ex tota anima tua, et ex tota mente tua, et ex tota virtute tua. Hoc est primum mandatum. 31 Secundum autem simile est illi: Diliges proximum tuum tamquam teipsum. Majus horum aliud mandatum non est. 32 Et ait illi scriba: Bene, Magister, in veritate dixisti, quia unus est Deus, et non est alius præter eum. 33 Et ut diligatur ex toto corde, et ex toto intellectu, et ex tota anima, et ex tota fortitudine, et diligere proximum tamquam seipsum, majus est omnibus holocautomatibus, et sacrificiis. 34 Jesus autem videns quod sapienter respondisset, dixit illi: Non es longe a regno Dei. Et nemo jam audebat eum interrogare.
35 Et respondens Jesus dicebat, docens in templo: Quomodo dicunt scribæ Christum filium esse David? 36 Ipse enim David dicit in Spiritu Sancto: Dixit Dominus Domino meo: Sede a dextris meis, donec ponam inimicos tuos scabellum pedum tuorum. 37 Ipse ergo David dicit eum Dominum, et unde est filius ejus? Et multa turba eum libenter audivit. 38 Et dicebat eis in doctrina sua: Cavete a scribis, qui volunt in stolis ambulare, et salutari in foro, 39 et in primis cathedris sedere in synagogis, et primos discubitus in cœnis: 40 qui devorant domos viduarum sub obtentu prolixæ orationis: hi accipient prolixius judicium.
41 Et sedens Jesus contra gazophylacium, aspiciebat quomodo turba jactaret æs in gazophylacium, et multi divites jactabant multa. 42 Cum venisset autem vidua una pauper, misit duo minuta, quod est quadrans, 43 et convocans discipulos suos, ait illis: Amen dico vobis, quoniam vidua hæc pauper plus omnibus misit, qui miserunt in gazophylacium. 44 Omnes enim ex eo, quod abundabat illis, miserunt: hæc vero de penuria sua omnia quæ habuit misit totum victum suum.

reply from: galen

Luke 12
1 Multis autem turbis circumstantibus, ita ut se invicem conculcarent, cœpit dicere ad discipulos suos: Attendite a fermento pharisæorum, quod est hypocrisis. 2 Nihil autem opertum est, quod non reveletur: neque absconditum, quod non sciatur. 3 Quoniam quæ in tenebris dixistis, in lumine dicentur: et quod in aurem locuti estis in cubiculis, prædicabitur in tectis.
4 Dico autem vobis amicis meis: Ne terreamini ab his qui occidunt corpus, et post hæc non habent amplius quid faciant. 5 Ostendam autem vobis quem timeatis: timete eum qui, postquam occiderit, habet potestatem mittere in gehennam: ita dico vobis, hunc timete. 6 Nonne quinque passeres veneunt dipondio, et unus ex illis non est in oblivione coram Deo? 7 sed et capilli capitis vestri omnes numerati sunt. Nolite ergo timere: multis passeribus pluris estis vos.
8 Dico autem vobis: Omnis quicumque confessus fuerit me coram hominibus, et Filius hominis confitebitur illum coram angelis Dei: 9 qui autem negaverit me coram hominibus, negabitur coram angelis Dei. 10 Et omnis qui dicit verbum in Filium hominis, remittetur illi: ei autem qui in Spiritum Sanctum blasphemaverit, non remittetur. 11 Cum autem inducent vos in synagogas, et ad magistratus, et potestates, nolite solliciti esse qualiter, aut quid respondeatis, aut quid dicatis. 12 Spiritus enim Sanctus docebit vos in ipsa hora quid oporteat vos dicere. 13 Ait autem ei quidam de turba: Magister, dic fratri meo ut dividat mecum hæreditatem. 14 At ille dixit illi: Homo, quis me constituit judicem, aut divisorem super vos?
15 Dixitque ad illos: Videte, et cavete ab omni avaritia: quia non in abundantia cujusquam vita ejus est ex his quæ possidet. 16 Dixit autem similitudinem ad illos, dicens: Hominis cujusdam divitis uberes fructus ager attulit: 17 et cogitabat intra se dicens: Quid faciam, quia non habeo quo congregem fructus meos? 18 Et dixit: Hoc faciam: destruam horrea mea, et majora faciam: et illuc congregabo omnia quæ nata sunt mihi, et bona mea, 19 et dicam animæ meæ: Anima, habes multa bona posita in annos plurimos: requiesce, comede, bibe, epulare. 20 Dixit autem illi Deus: Stulte, hac nocte animam tuam repetunt a te: quæ autem parasti, cujus erunt? 21 Sic est qui sibi thesaurizat, et non est in Deum dives.
22 Dixitque ad discipulos suos: Ideo dico vobis, nolite solliciti esse animæ vestræ quid manducetis, neque corpori quid induamini. 23 Anima plus est quam esca, et corpus plus quam vestimentum. 24 Considerate corvos, quia non seminant, neque metunt, quibus non est cellarium, neque horreum, et Deus pascit illos. Quanto magis vos pluris estis illis? 25 Quis autem vestrum cogitando potest adjicere ad staturam suam cubitum unum? 26 Si ergo neque quod minimum est potestis, quid de ceteris solliciti estis? 27 Considerate lilia quomodo crescunt: non laborant, neque nent: dico autem vobis, nec Salomon in omni gloria sua vestiebatur sicut unum ex istis. 28 Si autem fœnum, quod hodie est in agro, et cras in clibanum mittitur, Deus sic vestit: quanto magis vos pusillæ fidei? 29 Et vos nolite quærere quid manducetis, aut quid bibatis: et nolite in sublime tolli: 30 hæc enim omnia gentes mundi quærunt. Pater autem vester scit quoniam his indigetis. 31 Verumtamen quærite primum regnum Dei, et justitiam ejus: et hæc omnia adjicientur vobis. 32 Nolite timere pusillus grex, quia complacuit Patri vestro dare vobis regnum. 33 Vendite quæ possidetis, et date eleemosynam. Facite vobis sacculos, qui non veterascunt, thesaurum non deficientem in cælis: quo fur non appropriat, neque tinea corrumpit. 34 Ubi enim thesaurus vester est, ibi et cor vestrum erit.
35 Sint lumbi vestri præcincti, et lucernæ ardentes in manibus vestris, 36 et vos similes hominibus exspectantibus dominum suum quando revertatur a nuptiis: ut, cum venerit et pulsaverit, confestim aperiant ei. 37 Beati servi illi quos, cum venerit dominus, invenerit vigilantes: amen dico vobis, quod præcinget se, et faciet illos discumbere, et transiens ministrabit illis. 38 Et si venerit in secunda vigilia, et si in tertia vigilia venerit, et ita invenerit, beati sunt servi illi. 39 Hoc autem scitote, quoniam si sciret paterfamilias, qua hora fur veniret, vigilaret utique, et non sineret perfodi domum suam. 40 Et vos estote parati: quia qua hora non putatis, Filius hominis veniet. 41 Ait autem et Petrus: Domine, ad nos dicis hanc parabolam, an et ad omnes? 42 Dixit autem Dominus: Quis, putas, est fidelis dispensator, et prudens, quem constituit dominus supra familiam suam, ut det illis in tempore tritici mensuram? 43 Beatus ille servus quem, cum venerit dominus, invenerit ita facientem. 44 Vere dico vobis, quoniam supra omnia quæ possidet, constituet illum. 45 Quod si dixerit servus ille in corde suo: Moram facit dominus meus venire: et cœperit percutere servos, et ancillas, et edere, et bibere, et inebriari: 46 veniet dominus servi illius in die qua non sperat, et hora qua nescit, et dividet eum, partemque ejus cum infidelibus ponet. 47 Ille autem servus qui cognovit voluntatem domini sui, et non præparavit, et non facit secundum voluntatem ejus, vapulabit multis: 48 qui autem non cognovit, et fecit digna plagis, vapulabit paucis. Omni autem cui multum datum est, multum quæretur ab eo: et cui commendaverunt multum, plus petent ab eo.
49 Ignem veni mittere in terram, et quid volo nisi ut accendatur? 50 Baptismo autem habeo baptizari: et quomodo coarctor usque dum perficiatur? 51 Putatis quia pacem veni dare in terram? non, dico vobis, sed separationem: 52 erunt enim ex hoc quinque in domo una divisi, tres in duos, et duo in tres 53 dividentur: pater in filium, et filius in patrem suum, mater in filiam, et filia in matrem, socrus in nurum suam, et nurus in socrum suam.
54 Dicebat autem et ad turbas: Cum videritis nubem orientem ab occasu, statim dicitis: Nimbus venit: et ita fit. 55 Et cum austrum flantem, dicitis: Quia æstus erit: et fit. 56 Hypocritæ! faciem cæli et terræ nostis probare: hoc autem tempus quomodo non probatis? 57 quid autem et a vobis ipsis non judicatis quod justum est?
58 Cum autem vadis cum adversario tuo ad principem, in via da operam liberari ab illo, ne forte trahat te ad judicem, et judex tradat te exactori, et exactor mittat te in carcerem. 59 Dico tibi, non exies inde, donec etiam novissimum minutum reddas.

reply from: galen

Matthew 12
1 In illo tempore abiit Jesus per sata sabbato: discipuli autem ejus esurientes cœperunt vellere spicas, et manducare. 2 Pharisæi autem videntes, dixerunt ei: Ecce discipuli tui faciunt quod non licet facere sabbatis. 3 At ille dixit eis: Non legistis quid fecerit David, quando esuriit, et qui cum eo erant: 4 quomodo intravit in domum Dei, et panes propositionis comedit, quos non licebat ei edere, neque his qui cum eo erant, nisi solis sacerdotibus? 5 aut non legistis in lege quia sabbatis sacerdotes in templo sabbatum violant, et sine crimine sunt? 6 Dico autem vobis, quia templo major est hic. 7 Si autem sciretis, quid est: Misericordiam volo, et non sacrificium: numquam condemnassetis innocentes: 8 dominus enim est Filius hominis etiam sabbati.
9 Et cum inde transisset, venit in synagogam eorum. 10 Et ecce homo manum habens aridam, et interrogabant eum, dicentes: Si licet sabbatis curare? ut accusarent eum. 11 Ipse autem dixit illis: Quis erit ex vobis homo, qui habeat ovem unam, et si ceciderit hæc sabbatis in foveam, nonne tenebit et levabit eam? 12 Quanto magis melior est homo ove? itaque licet sabbatis benefacere. 13 Tunc ait homini: Extende manum tuam. Et extendit, et restituta est sanitati sicut altera. 14 Exeuntes autem pharisæi, consilium faciebant adversus eum, quomodo perderent eum. 15 Jesus autem sciens recessit inde: et secuti sunt eum multi, et curavit eos omnes: 16 et præcepit eis ne manifestum eum facerent. 17 Ut adimpleretur quod dictum est per Isaiam prophetam, dicentem:
18 Ecce puer meus, quem elegi, dilectus meus,
in quo bene complacuit animæ meæ.
Ponam spiritum meum super eum,
et judicium gentibus nuntiabit.
19 Non contendet, neque clamabit,
neque audiet aliquis in plateis vocem ejus:
20 arundinem quassatam non confringet,
et linum fumigans non extinguet,
donec ejiciat ad victoriam judicium:
21 et in nomine ejus gentes sperabunt.
22 Tunc oblatus est ei dæmonium habens, cæcus, et mutus, et curavit eum ita ut loqueretur, et videret. 23 Et stupebant omnes turbæ, et dicebant: Numquid hic est filius David? 24 Pharisæi autem audientes, dixerunt: Hic non ejicit dæmones nisi in Beelzebub principe dæmoniorum. 25 Jesus autem sciens cogitationes eorum, dixit eis: Omne regnum divisum contra se desolabitur: et omnis civitas vel domus divisa contra se, non stabit. 26 Et si Satanas Satanam ejicit, adversus se divisus est: quomodo ergo stabit regnum ejus? 27 Et si ego in Beelzebub ejicio dæmones, filii vestri in quo ejiciunt? ideo ipsi judices vestri erunt. 28 Si autem ego in Spiritu Dei ejicio dæmones, igitur pervenit in vos regnum Dei. 29 Aut quomodo potest quisquam intrare in domum fortis, et vasa ejus diripere, nisi prius alligaverit fortem? et tunc domum illius diripiet. 30 Qui non est mecum, contra me est; et qui non congregat mihi, spargit. 31 Ideo dico vobis: Omne peccatum et blasphemia remittetur hominibus, Spiritus autem blasphemia non remittetur. 32 Et quicumque dixerit verbum contra Filium hominis, remittetur ei: qui autem dixerit contra Spiritum Sanctum, non remittetur ei, neque in hoc sæculo, neque in futuro. 33 Aut facite arborem bonam, et fructum ejus bonum: aut facite arborem malam, et fructum ejus malum: siquidem ex fructu arbor agnoscitur. 34 Progenies viperarum, quomodo potestis bona loqui, cum sitis mali? ex abundantia enim cordis os loquitur. 35 Bonus homo de bono thesauro profert bona: et malus homo de malo thesauro profert mala. 36 Dico autem vobis quoniam omne verbum otiosum, quod locuti fuerint homines, reddent rationem de eo in die judicii. 37 Ex verbis enim tuis justificaberis et ex verbis tuis condemnaberis.
38 Tunc responderunt ei quidam de scribis et pharisæis, dicentes: Magister, volumus a te signum videre. 39 Qui respondens ait illis: Generatio mala et adultera signum quærit: et signum non dabitur ei, nisi signum Jonæ prophetæ. 40 Sicut enim fuit Jonas in ventre ceti tribus diebus, et tribus noctibus, sic erit Filius hominis in corde terræ tribus diebus et tribus noctibus. 41 Viri Ninivitæ surgent in judicio cum generatione ista, et condemnabunt eam: quia pœnitentiam egerunt in prædicatione Jonæ, et ecce plus quam Jonas hic. 42 Regina austri surget in judicio cum generatione ista, et condemnabit eam: quia venit a finibus terræ audire sapientiam Salomonis, et ecce plus quam Salomon hic. 43 Cum autem immundus spiritus exierit ab homine, ambulat per loca arida, quærens requiem, et non invenit. 44 Tunc dicit: Revertar in domum meam, unde exivi. Et veniens invenit eam vacantem, scopis mundatam, et ornatam. 45 Tunc vadit, et assumit septem alios spiritus secum nequiores se, et intrantes habitant ibi: et fiunt novissima hominis illius pejora prioribus. Sic erit et generationi huic pessimæ.
46 Adhuc eo loquente ad turbas, ecce mater ejus et fratres stabant foris, quærentes loqui ei. 47 Dixit autem ei quidam: Ecce mater tua, et fratres tui foris stant quærentes te. 48 At ipse respondens dicenti sibi, ait: Quæ est mater mea, et qui sunt fratres mei? 49 Et extendens manum in discipulos suos, dixit: Ecce mater mea, et fratres mei. 50 Quicumque enim fecerit voluntatem Patris mei, qui in cælis est, ipse meus frater, et soror, et mater est.

reply from: galen

As for those who work in the medical profession, they ought to neglect no means of making all their skill available to the sick and dying; but they should also remember how much more necessary it is to provide them with the comfort of boundless kindness and heartfelt charity. Such service to people is also service to Christ the Lord, who said: "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me" (Mt. 25:40).
Declaration on Euthanasia
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
May 5, 1980

reply from: galen

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles who followed not after justice have attained to justice, even the justice that is of faith. 31 But Israel, by following after the law of justice, is not come unto the law of justice. 32 Why so? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were of works. For they stumbled at the stumblingstone. 33 As it is written: Behold I lay in Sion a stumbling-stone and a rock of scandal. And whosoever believeth in him shall not be confounded.
Romans Chapter 9

reply from: galen

"As much as she hath glorified herself and lived in delicacies, so much torment and sorrow give ye to her" (Apocalypse 18:7).

reply from: galen

Psalm 51
3 Why dost thou glory in malice, thou that art mighty in iniquity?
4 All the day long thy tongue hath devised injustice: as a sharp razor, thou hast wrought deceit.
5 Thou hast loved malice more than goodness: and iniquity rather than to speak righteousness.
6 Thou hast loved all the words of ruin, O deceitful tongue.
7 Therefore will God destroy thee for ever: he will pluck thee out, and remove thee from thy dwelling place: and thy root out of the land of the living.
8 The just shall see and fear, and shall laugh at him, and say:
9 Behold the man that made not God his helper: But trusted in the abundance of his riches: and prevailed in his vanity.
10 But I, as a fruitful olive tree in the house of God, have hoped in the mercy of God for ever, yea for ever and ever.
11 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name, for it is good in the sight of thy saints.

reply from: galen

Sirach Chapter 8
1 Strive not with a powerful man, lest thou fall into his hands.
2 Contend not with a rich man, lest he bring an action against thee.
3 For gold and silver hath destroyed many, and hath reached even to the heart of kings, and perverted them.
4 Strive not with a man that is full of tongue, and heap not wood upon his fire.
5 Communicate not with an ignorant man, lest he speak ill of thy family.
6 Despise not a man that turneth away from sin, nor reproach him therewith: remember that we are all worthy of reproof.
7 Despise not a man in his old age; for we also shall become old.
8 Rejoice not at the death of thy enemy; knowing that we all die, and are not willing that others should rejoice at our death.
9 Despise not the discourse of them that are ancient and wise, but acquaint thyself with their proverbs.
10 For of them thou shalt learn wisdom, and instruction of understanding, and to serve great men without blame.
11 Let not the discourse of the ancients escape thee, for they have learned of their fathers:
12 For of them thou shalt learn understanding, and to give an answer in time of need.
13 Kindle not the coals of sinners by rebuking them, lest thou be burnt with the flame of the fire of their sins.
14 Stand not against the face of an injurious person, lest he sit as a spy to entrap thee in thy words.
15 Lend not to a man that is mightier than thyself: and if thou lendest, count it as lost.
16 Be not surety above thy power: and if thou be surety, think as if thou wert to pay it.
17 Judge not against a judge: for he judgeth according to that which is just.
18 Go not on the way with a bold man, lest he burden thee with his evils: for he goeth according to his own will, and thou shalt perish together with his folly.
19 Quarrel not with a passionate man, and go not into the desert with a bold man: for blood is as nothing in his sight, and where there is no help he will overthrow thee.
20 Advise not with fools, for they cannot love but such things as please them.
21 Before a stranger do no matter of counsel: for thou knowest not what he will bring forth.
22 Open not thy heart to every man: lest he repay thee with an evil turn, and speak reproachfully to thee.

reply from: galen

Matthew Chapter 7
1 Judge not, that you may not be judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? 4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you

reply from: galen

atthew 23:13
13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter. 14 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte. And when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves. 16 Woe to you, blind guides, that say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but he that shall swear by the gold of the temple is a debtor. 17 Ye foolish and blind: for whether is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gift that is upon it is a debtor. 19 Ye foolish and blind: for whether is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 He therefore that sweareth by the altar sweareth by it and by all things that are upon it. 21 And whosoever shall swear by the temple sweareth by it and by him that dwelleth in it. 22 And he that sweareth by heaven sweareth by the throne of God and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you tithe mint and anise and cummin and have left the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and faith. These things you ought to have done and not to leave those undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel. 25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you make clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean. 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful but within are full of dead men's bones and of all filthiness. 28 So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just: but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, that build the sepulchres of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the just, Build the sepulchres, etc... This is not blamed, as if it were in itself evil to build or adorn the monuments of the prophets: but the hypocrisy of the Pharisees is here taxed; who, whilst they pretended to honour the memory of the prophets, were persecuting even unto death the Lord of the prophets. 30 And say: If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore you are witnesses against yourselves, that you are the sons of them that killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?

reply from: churchmouse

No carole I stand there all day cutting people down that come to the booth. It makes me feel better ya know.
You are something else.
Our booth is a pro-life booth and anyone is welcome.......pregnant woman, pro-choice, families etc.... We have information available in the form of brouchures, tapes and books. We also sell things for a donation. We give out crisis pregnancy center information, support groups, stem cell, assisted suicide. We have religious material.......we have non religious materials.
I said nothing that this girl after her performance did not deserve. Even her friend apologized for her actions. I did not yell it so others could hear. She needed to hear what obviously no one else had told her. That she was killing a living human being and that her actions were a direct result. Although 16 she had the power to kill and she did.
I made a good point. That if she thinks she is to young to have a baby, that abortion is the answer, that she is not old enough to have sex and deal with the consequences of her actions. Her excuse is no excuse for an abortion.
We also have a book we put in back that is not available on our viewing table . It shows the graphic pictures of an abortion.
We bring it out when we feel it will help in a discussion.
A few weeks ago I was working at a booth and this bunch of teenage boys came up and wondered what we were all about. I think they did it on a dare.....but whatever they were there. They started out mocking, making smart remarks etc...
One kid said that abortion was a womans right and that it was nothing but flesh. They laughed a lot and played with the little plastic fetuses on the table.

I asked them if they would like to see what abortion really was. They say sure so I got the book out and handed to them. SILENCE..........utter SILENCE. I wish you could have see their faces. These boys probably were 14-15.
They shut up and started asking real questions. I bet they stood at the booth for 30 minutes.
I explained everything, fetal development, when the heart starts beating......we got into politics and the upcoming election. I dont think anything could have turned their mocking into constructive conversation like those graphic pictures did.
You dont think I dont share my abortion with people? LOL
That was all covered before she threw out her verbal assaults on the unborn.
She deserved what she got. And what she got was the truth.
You have to approach people differently when they come up to the booth. Everyone is different and it takes a minute to figure out what to say to people.
To young people I always first ask if they know when the heart starts beating in a fetus. Then I tell them that unfortunately I had an abortion and thought it was nothing but a blob of cells but later learned it was murder. That usually gets their attention. Then I ask them if they would like to know why I regreted my abortion and what it did to me.
You think I added to her hurt? You think stating the truth of what abortion really is is wrong?
I am never cruel to anyone carole. But when windows of opportunity open up, I take them and I know by now how to talk to the different people that come up to the booth.
But hey you can agree to dissagree......just like many dissagreed with you handing out your presents to the woman that just had abortions.
We do what we think is right. And that girl had to hear the truth. Yes she might cry over it, she might hate me for saying what I did.......but then again she might take what I said seriously the next time she gets ready to have sex.
ITS NOT ALL ABOUT THE WOMAN. THE TRUTH IS.......ITS ABOUT THE UNBORN CHILD and everyone even our young children should know that.

reply from: galen

gee Chm... your just not as smart as you profess are you?
nothing to say to scripture now?
nah... i thought not...

reply from: Agape

Churchmouse, do you tell people you had an abortion when they come to your table?

reply from: galen

only when she feels she can use it as a moraly superior dig later on.....

reply from: Agape

What do you mean? I was wondering if she used it as a tool to show people...'look I did this, and since then I've learned...' in a humble kind of way.

reply from: nancyu

No carole I stand there all day cutting people down that come to the booth. It makes me feel better ya know.
You are something else.
Our booth is a pro-life booth and anyone is welcome.......pregnant woman, pro-choice, families etc.... We have information available in the form of brouchures, tapes and books. We also sell things for a donation. We give out crisis pregnancy center information, support groups, stem cell, assisted suicide. We have religious material.......we have non religious materials.
I said nothing that this girl after her performance did not deserve. Even her friend apologized for her actions. I did not yell it so others could hear. She needed to hear what obviously no one else had told her. That she was killing a living human being and that her actions were a direct result. Although 16 she had the power to kill and she did.
I made a good point. That if she thinks she is to young to have a baby, that abortion is the answer, that she is not old enough to have sex and deal with the consequences of her actions. Her excuse is no excuse for an abortion.
We also have a book we put in back that is not available on our viewing table . It shows the graphic pictures of an abortion.
We bring it out when we feel it will help in a discussion.
A few weeks ago I was working at a booth and this bunch of teenage boys came up and wondered what we were all about. I think they did it on a dare.....but whatever they were there. They started out mocking, making smart remarks etc...
One kid said that abortion was a womans right and that it was nothing but flesh. They laughed a lot and played with the little plastic fetuses on the table.
I asked them if they would like to see what abortion really was. They say sure so I got the book out and handed to them. SILENCE..........utter SILENCE. I wish you could have see their faces. These boys probably were 14-15.
They shut up and started asking real questions. I bet they stood at the booth for 30 minutes.
I explained everything, fetal development, when the heart starts beating......we got into politics and the upcoming election. I dont think anything could have turned their mocking into constructive conversation like those graphic pictures did.
You dont think I dont share my abortion with people? LOL
That was all covered before she threw out her verbal assaults on the unborn.
She deserved what she got. And what she got was the truth.
You have to approach people differently when they come up to the booth. Everyone is different and it takes a minute to figure out what to say to people.
To young people I always first ask if they know when the heart starts beating in a fetus. Then I tell them that unfortunately I had an abortion and thought it was nothing but a blob of cells but later learned it was murder. That usually gets their attention. Then I ask them if they would like to know why I regreted my abortion and what it did to me.
You think I added to her hurt? You think stating the truth of what abortion really is is wrong?
I am never cruel to anyone carole. But when windows of opportunity open up, I take them and I know by now how to talk to the different people that come up to the booth.
But hey you can agree to dissagree......just like many dissagreed with you handing out your presents to the woman that just had abortions.
We do what we think is right. And that girl had to hear the truth. Yes she might cry over it, she might hate me for saying what I did.......but then again she might take what I said seriously the next time she gets ready to have sex.
ITS NOT ALL ABOUT THE WOMAN. THE TRUTH IS.......ITS ABOUT THE UNBORN CHILD and everyone even our young children should know that.
I think this is an excellent post.

reply from: galen

when i first heard her speak about it i wondered the same thing... then she got better with her little'slices of my work as a prolife counselor'.... every one of the tales comes off with her as the hungry stalker of the unsuspecting abortion loving masses...i think her joy comes not from turning people away from abortion but in how much mayhem she can cause while wearing the cloak of 'avenger of the unborn'.
She thinks its funny to cause traffic tie ups, OK to shout at teenagers, and the like... those seem to be her most recent.
while i may not belive carole and i see eye to eye on all points of this issue and i do not agree with some of her methods, i do see a genuine humility about her and a desire to try and do good.
Chm IMO seems only to relish the thought of causing others torment... no matter who what when where or why, and she wrapps it all up in the shiny bow of her own form of Christianity... that she found in a dumpster.

reply from: carolemarie

Churchmouse'
Back to the sixteen year old girl....
She has had multiple abortions, she told you that she was okay with those decisions because she was young.
She needed to be loved. Every 16 year old who is sleeping around having abortion after abortion is crying out for love and attention. Something is seriously wrong in her life.
Why didn't you just look at her and say , Oh honey, I am so sorry that you had to experieince that, I wish I could have been there to help you....and open dialog
and let the kindness of God work on her heart. Why slam her? You should know that the acting so brave and noncholant is masking a heavy heart....why make her run...away from someone who could have helped her, because you decided that she needed to hear "tough talk"
Don't you realize that you were an authority figure in her eyes, and you just slamed her and hurt her like the authority in her life has? This was a KID!

reply from: yoda

Wrong. The analogy is perfectly valid because of the commonality of the victim being blamed for "being there", as if their location justified aggression.
It does not.

reply from: yoda

I have seen posts of hers that I thought made some really good points. I don't read all of them, but I think we ought to give credit where credit is due, and spend more time making points against abortion than attacking other posters personalities.

reply from: yoda

I agree. Otherwise, one can claim that "only Christians can be prolife", as some posters here have implied.
Being prolife is just being decent and honest, that's all.

reply from: yoda

Telling someone the cold, hard truth in a clam, rational tone is the best thing you can do for them, regardless of how shocking the truth is to them.
I would've reacted the same way.

reply from: yoda

Murderers should be treated as murderers, yes.

reply from: yoda

She took no cheap shots. Calmly speaking the truth is NEVER a "cheap shot".
.. you're just looking for something to attack.

reply from: yoda

And you are still here because.......................????????????

reply from: yoda

There's no threat in that..... as long as we are honest in our "judgments", we need not fear being honestly judged by others.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. Telling someone the cold, hard truth presented in a calm, dispassionate way is the best thing you can do for them.
Yes it does. Some just want a shouting match, others want to actually engage you. You have to let them set the tone.
Unless one can separate the VICTIM from the PERPETRATOR of VIOLENCE, they tend to think we should be equally supportive of both. I think there is a whole world of difference between the one who KILLS, and the one who IS KILLED.
And to not recognize that difference is willing blindness, IMO.

reply from: yoda

Maybe because she didn't "have to experience that", she CHOSE to experience that.
No matter what the age, morality is still the same. You don't tell a child of any age that they "had to experience that" when they themselves CHOSE to do those things!!
You don't coddle someone for doing immoral things, you tell them in no uncertain terms that they have done wrong!

reply from: yoda

You really can't see the difference between a fender bender in a parking lot and the slaughter of an unborn child?
Really?

reply from: churchmouse

Gee mary, I could also cut and paste the entire NT or OT here as well.......and what would that accomplish? What is the point you are trying to make?
You expect me to go over every one of those verses? Make your point and I will answer.
Declaration on Euthanasia
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
May 5, 1980
I am not Catholic so I do not believe the Sirach is part of the Word.

Agape.....I don't tell everyone unless I feel it will help in the discussion. I absolutely do not tell young children.
I do not make it about myself, if thats what you are getting at.
Oh yes an abortion certainly makes one morally superior. I certainly would tell them about the forgiveness only Christ can give. Do you want to hear about it?
Thank you nancy for your support on my post.
A hungry stalker?.......No honey, only a sinner saved by the grace of my God FOR KILLING MY UNBORN CHILD. You know mary, the child that was dismembered. I am not the victim.....the child is the victim. That never changes, even with Gods tender forgiveness.
I never yell.......where did I say I ever raised my voice at anyone?
You are a master deciever mary. You lie to serve your purpose, a purpose you milk with everything you can get. God forbid if anyone challenges you..... and if they do, you get your cauldron ready, your nasty book of poetry.......all honoring the God you say you love and honor. You say I dont show Christian love.........?
What do you show galen? You post scriptures that you obviously do not practice.
I dissagee with carole as well on several things as she obviously does with my methods.......but I never meant to imply her work is not a blessing, I believe it is. I defended her when you all ditched her to the curb when she handed out her chocolates in a goodie bag remember?
I do believe however that you are a mean person in words and actions.

First of all I do not need to explain my actions to you carole over and over, I think I have covered it pretty well. You just dissagree with what I said, lets leave it at that and that is fine. I believe what I did was right in this circumstance. People dissagreed with you handing out goodie bags......thats ok too isnt it?
For the last time.........This girl did not tell me, she raised her voice and stuck out her chest and was proud of the fact she killed the blobs of tissue she called a baby. I was calm and handed her some material about post abortion counseling and told her she might regret her actions down the line that there were groups she could hook up with to talk about her feelings should she want to. She said, I will continue to get abortions, that she didnt feel they were anything big. I handed her material about fetal development and asked her if she knew when the heart started beating. I mentioned briefly that I had an abortion. She said, look what dont you get, I dont believe children should be having children.........THEN I SAID WHAT I SAID AND NOT IN A HURTFUL WAY.
I believe some kids shouldnt be coddled. I showed her no hate but showed a lot of control actually by how she was acting. She will think about what I said. Her friend looked at me sweetly and apologized.
I said nothing that this girl shouldnt have heard. If you think I didnt handle it right so be it. We all have our different methods and every situation is different.
We never shout and yell at our booth......NEVER.
Yes she was a kid and we all need love but she is a kid that KILLED THREE INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS. Why do you constantly forget the child? If she was old enough to have sex and three abortions........she was old enough to hear what I had to say.
You make me out to be something I am not and I do not appreciate it, just because you dissagree with what I said to her. she had to hear the truth however hard.
Yoda is right you are trying to find something to attack me with.
The thing that really hurt was that you said this was MY CAUSE. That was a cheap shot. Its Gods cause and we all should go to bat for the unborn. Working against abortion should be everyones cause. Pro- life work is not the only passion in my life either.
They were small fenderbenders in the entrance to the parking lot of a swanky resort and no one was hurt. Did you ever think God might be spanking them? Allowing this so that they would have to really look at the signs. I certainly would not want anyone hurt. But we did not cause the accidents. We were following the law. In fact a policeman was standing with us when one happened. He laughed becuase two of the cars were Mercedes.
Your not pro-life so of course you are going to bat for the pro-aborts.
I did nothing unChristian, I was there standing up for life, the life you obviously kick to the curb.

reply from: carolemarie

Maybe because she didn't "have to experience that", she CHOSE to experience that.
No matter what the age, morality is still the same. You don't tell a child of any age that they "had to experience that" when they themselves CHOSE to do those things!!
You don't coddle someone for doing immoral things, you tell them in no uncertain terms that they have done wrong!
You pick your words with care when you are dealing with minors...and people who are emotionally in turmoil. CM should take some post-abortion classes and learn how to talk to girls who have experienced abortion.

reply from: galen

Gee mary, I could also cut and paste the entire NT or OT here as well.......and what would that accomplish? What is the point you are trying to make?
You expect me to go over every one of those verses? Make your point and I will answer.
Declaration on Euthanasia
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
May 5, 1980
I am not Catholic so I do not believe the Sirach is part of the Word.

Agape.....I don't tell everyone unless I feel it will help in the discussion. I absolutely do not tell young children.
I do not make it about myself, if thats what you are getting at.
Oh yes an abortion certainly makes one morally superior. I certainly would tell them about the forgiveness only Christ can give. Do you want to hear about it?
Thank you nancy for your support on my post.
A hungry stalker?.......No honey, only a sinner saved by the grace of my God FOR KILLING MY UNBORN CHILD. You know mary, the child that was dismembered. I am not the victim.....the child is the victim. That never changes, even with Gods tender forgiveness.
I never yell.......where did I say I ever raised my voice at anyone?
You are a master deciever mary. You lie to serve your purpose, a purpose you milk with everything you can get. God forbid if anyone challenges you..... and if they do, you get your cauldron ready, your nasty book of poetry.......all honoring the God you say you love and honor. You say I dont show Christian love.........?
What do you show galen? You post scriptures that you obviously do not practice.
I dissagee with carole as well on several things as she obviously does with my methods.......but I never meant to imply her work is not a blessing, I believe it is. I defended her when you all ditched her to the curb when she handed out her chocolates in a goodie bag remember?
I do believe however that you are a mean person in words and actions.

First of all I do not need to explain my actions to you carole over and over, I think I have covered it pretty well. You just dissagree with what I said, lets leave it at that and that is fine. I believe what I did was right in this circumstance. People dissagreed with you handing out goodie bags......thats ok too isnt it?
For the last time.........This girl did not tell me, she raised her voice and stuck out her chest and was proud of the fact she killed the blobs of tissue she called a baby. I was calm and handed her some material about post abortion counseling and told her she might regret her actions down the line that there were groups she could hook up with to talk about her feelings should she want to. She said, I will continue to get abortions, that she didnt feel they were anything big. I handed her material about fetal development and asked her if she knew when the heart started beating. I mentioned briefly that I had an abortion. She said, look what dont you get, I dont believe children should be having children.........THEN I SAID WHAT I SAID AND NOT IN A HURTFUL WAY.
I believe some kids shouldnt be coddled. I showed her no hate but showed a lot of control actually by how she was acting. She will think about what I said. Her friend looked at me sweetly and apologized.
I said nothing that this girl shouldnt have heard. If you think I didnt handle it right so be it. We all have our different methods and every situation is different.
We never shout and yell at our booth......NEVER.
Yes she was a kid and we all need love but she is a kid that KILLED THREE INNOCENT HUMAN BEINGS. Why do you constantly forget the child? If she was old enough to have sex and three abortions........she was old enough to hear what I had to say.
You make me out to be something I am not and I do not appreciate it, just because you dissagree with what I said to her. she had to hear the truth however hard.
Yoda is right you are trying to find something to attack me with.
The thing that really hurt was that you said this was MY CAUSE. That was a cheap shot. Its Gods cause and we all should go to bat for the unborn. Working against abortion should be everyones cause. Pro- life work is not the only passion in my life either.
They were small fenderbenders in the entrance to the parking lot of a swanky resort and no one was hurt. Did you ever think God might be spanking them? Allowing this so that they would have to really look at the signs. I certainly would not want anyone hurt. But we did not cause the accidents. We were following the law. In fact a policeman was standing with us when one happened. He laughed becuase two of the cars were Mercedes.
Your not pro-life so of course you are going to bat for the pro-aborts.
I did nothing unChristian, I was there standing up for life, the life you obviously kick to the curb.
___________________________________________________
OH so now you DOn't want to speak scripture... well well well... again.. seems you are not as all fired smart as you would have everyone belive.
i believe those passages spoke for themselves... and you were too scared to comment.
and yeah you did imply that you spoke forcefully/ yelled at that girl. Sorry still don't believe that you are in this for anything more than a way to create legalised mayhem.
you just wrap yourself in the cloak of Christianity to justify the way you act.
go get some humility... or God may have to 'spank' you!.

reply from: galen

Chm:
Gee mary, I could also cut and paste the entire NT or OT here as well.......and what would that accomplish? What is the point you are trying to make?
You expect me to go over every one of those verses? Make your point and I will answer.
Declaration on Euthanasia
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
May 5, 1980
I am not Catholic so I do not believe the Sirach is part of the Word.
_________________________________________________________
BTW i have trouble beliving You are christian... so i don't think you have anything to say.
You only get to pick and choose if you allow others to do so also. I belive you got an A+ in hypocrisy for that one.

reply from: seashell55

God bless you . . . and thank God for the words he gives you the grace to use.

reply from: seashell55

beautiful and absolutely correct Carolemarie

reply from: yoda

You should do that with everyone... not just those two categories.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, and please try to use the quote function so we can tell to which comments you are responding..... thanks.

reply from: churchmouse

I have taken classes for your information.
Why dont you take some on the fetus.......you know that which the woman kills because you totally dismiss the one being killed.
Because you have aborted two more than I have.......what? that makes you more educated?
Go eat one of your chocolates carole.
I apologize here to everyone that warned me that I was wrong about your position.

reply from: galen

maybe you should take a few in scripture... then you could actually face the argument you started....
or you could go back under your rock and hide.

reply from: faithman

I have taken classes for your information.
Why dont you take some on the fetus.......you know that which the woman kills because you totally dismiss the one being killed.
Because you have aborted two more than I have.......what? that makes you more educated?
Go eat one of your chocolates carole.
I apologize here to everyone that warned me that I was wrong about your position.
Don't feel bad. She has many fooled into believing she is really pro-life. She has come out and point plank stated that the womb child is of lesser consideration than the born child, or the mother who kills them. There is a big difference between those who excuse themselves for the evil they have done, and those who take responcibilty for it.

reply from: galen

CM is just as prolife as you FM....

reply from: RiverMoonLady

It really has been fun sitting back and watching you fools prove the point of my original post.

reply from: faithman

Not really. She continues to make excuses for the killer, and has point blank stated that the womb child is not at the same level as the born child. I say human life is equal across the board, from conception to natural death.

reply from: galen

Not really. She continues to make excuses for the killer, and has point blank stated that the womb child is not at the same level as the born child. I say human life is equal across the board, from conception to natural death.
______________________________________________-
my point is that you both have your opinions on the issue... not everyone agrees with you and not everyone agrees with her... it does not make you or her any less pro life.

reply from: carolemarie

I have taken classes for your information.
Why dont you take some on the fetus.......you know that which the woman kills because you totally dismiss the one being killed.
Because you have aborted two more than I have.......what? that makes you more educated?
Go eat one of your chocolates carole.
I apologize here to everyone that warned me that I was wrong about your position.
My position is that you need to be kind to children, especially when you doing post-abortion outreach!
Do you not believe that a kid who has had multiple abortions needs real help and intervention? She needs a Savior and you had a chance but you blew it and responded with a smart remark and ran her off. It bothers me a lot because you could have helped her and you didn't. Jesus is kind and gracious to lost sinners.
I would suggest that you take some PAC classes and some basic Christian counseling classes. Teenagers are not tiny adults. You have to deal with them differently. This is serious business, this girls future and life is at stake and God gave you this incredible opportunity to open the door for healing, and your response missed it!
It is easy, really easy to say someone did something wrong, and I am not doing this to give you grief. I just was really troubled by the post. I have responded incorrectly to women in the begining, because it is easy to answer the words being spoken, it is a lot hard to answer the heart cry. Go back and reread a post abortion bible study, or sit in again and listen to the pain and tears, and take that memory with you everytime you talk to someone. She needed compassion, and you are old enough to look past the words and answer her hurt.

reply from: jujujellybean

Being a girl, I would not respond to someone yelling at me to not have an abortion. I would feel upset and angry that they think I can't make that decision myself(you are talking about teenagers here, and that would be the mentality, believe me). If I were in that position, someone being nice to me and simply showing me why I shouldn't abort would definitely be more effective. Especially for a girl that is extremely upset over her abortion! Can you imagine being very scared and sad and then having a stranger harp at you for something you know now you shouldn't have done? Who is that helping?

reply from: 4given

Do you think you would have not gone through with your 2nd abortion if someone had gifted you and spoken kindly to you after your 1st?

reply from: carolemarie

I resent the gifting comment. I don't gift people. I try to talk to them on the way in to the clinic, and if I fail, I try to reach out to them afterwards. I feel terrible for them, for their baby and I want to help. So I give them post-abortion information, a bible, a mug and some chocolate, a tract on forgiveness. And I do talk to them and tell them that God loves them and I care about them and will help them if they need anything, that i want to be their friend. And I give them the bag. Why that is so terrible I will never understand. This is called outreach.
But to answer your question, if someone was there who cared about me, not just the baby, and was kind to me, I would have responded positively.
Same with someone who had stayed after the first abortion, if they had given me that little bag, I would have called them....

reply from: 4given

I apologize. The mention of gifting was not intended to cause resentment at all. I respect your experience and have taken your advice in regard to the clinics. I understand the need for a middle ground. I don't engage the women because God hasn't called me to. When I go, typically it is either in prayer and silent or armed only with the IAAP images. We have the aborted.. I am still learning. I am blessed from wherever the information comes. I appreciate that your story ( past and redemption) may actually provide a source of healing and strength to another woman. I have met a few away from the clinics and directed them to Silent No More, Rachel's Vineyard and Choices4Women.

reply from: carolemarie

Sorry, I am a little sensitive over the bags

reply from: churchmouse

Carole........
I do not consider a girl around 16 that innocent if she has been sleeping around and has had three abortions. Shes no child, in the innocent sense.
I was nice to her carole. Get off it. No I did not offer to take her to lunch or dinner but I had probably a five minute calm conversation from my part with her.
She does need a Savior, the unsaved do. And how do you know that she wasnt a Christian? The majority of women that get abortions in America are Christian. Not everyone that come to the table are religious and a lot of people do not want to talk about religion, they state that upfront. In that case we are instructed to follow the scientific route.
It was not a smart remark CAROLE I believe it was the truth and that is why she ran. Maybe this comment will lead her to someone else that can help her understand what she did not want to listen to at our booth. She was not interested in what science had to say. She wasnt interested in anything and was rude and arrogant.
You think you know it all don't you Carole? You just have the perfect way don't you? No body can do it like you...who NEVER makes mistakes.

I have taken classes and I go to seminars and conventions. I resent that you said this. And guess what carole.......we all acknowledge not only the woman but the unborn child. You know the one that is dismembered during an abortion. You seem to ignore that large fact. This tiny adult you mention here.........murdered three children, she is not stupid. I WAS NOT UNKIND TO HER.
God has a plan for this girl. After she left.....my coworkers and I prayed for her and her friend. God will intervene if He sees fit.

You are saying this because you think yourself better than anyone on here. Its your methods, your style, your way or no way. I have been doing this for almost ten years, I AM NOT STARTING CAROLE. I have been around and have personally met and listened to many authorities on abortion and pro-life causes.......Janet Folger, Mark Crutcher, Randy Alcorn, David Bereit, Stephanie Gray, Dr. William Toffler......I have attended workshops......to see exactly what works in most circumstances. Am I perfect no.......we all cant be like you now can we?
I could have looked at her and said, you need Christ.....I could have looked at her and said a lot of things.......and she still could have run off. God has a plan and I do not feel like this was any lost opportunity.
She will remember my face because I spoke in kindness to her. That I can not describe here......but you probably would still have thought it mean I am sure. You dont like my style and that is ok.......many dont like yours either.
I put it all in Gods hands. No one is perfect, I did what I believed to be right, just like you do when you hand out your gift bags of chocolates, mugs, tracts and bibles.
SO ONCE AGAIN CAROLE.......I DID NOT RAISE MY VOICE I NEVER HAVE, I DID NOT YELL OR SAY MEAN THINGS TO THIS GIRL........I GAVE HER MATERIALS.......I SPOKE THE TRUTH TO SOMEONE THAT WAS PROUD OF HER ABORTIONS.
I doubt she ranbecause she felt bad about what she had done. She ran because she didnt have a come back for what i said.
There are those people out there carole that are proud of abortion and the pro-life cause. I go to ASU when they have the demonstrations over the graphic pictures we put up. You ought to talk to some of these people carole. If you stand there and do not know your stuff you get mowed over. You dont need to be mean, or nasty like most of them are to us but you need to be firm in what you say.
You know Christ threw the moneychangers out of the temple. He didnt stand in the corner smile and ask them nicely to move.
I think sometimes it is ok to be angry when someone is doing something bad. And carole abortion is bad. What would you say to someone that was kicking a dog? What would you say to someone that was bullying a kid? Would you take your bible over and tell them that they needed a savior? Anger is only wrong if it CONTROLS US. If we let our anger make us do or say things that are mean and unncessary. I said nothing of the sort to this young woman.

"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;"
Is it wrong carole to be angry that innocent children are being slaughtered?
If we believe it is wrong to show emotion, we hide our tears. And we may be hiding the truth of our actions and others actions as well.
I thought you gave them gift bags with chocolates and a bible in them? NO?
What do you put them in? And it is a gift carole. Listen I defended your actions here and I still do. But they are a gift. They certainly are a gift. A gift of love.
Sorry I believe the little bag you give out is a gift.
Christ gives us a free gift......salvation.
Why do you oppose calling it this? Why would you be sensitive if you believed that what you are doing was right?

reply from: yoda

Now THERE'S the KISS OF DEATH.........

reply from: Agape

You are quite on to something here.
I think alot of women are coerced into abortion and yelling at them publically is not going to do anything but heap on more resentment. And make them run the other direction. Who runs towards someone yelling at them?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I have taken classes for your information.
Why dont you take some on the fetus.......you know that which the woman kills because you totally dismiss the one being killed.
Because you have aborted two more than I have.......what? that makes you more educated?
Go eat one of your chocolates carole.
I apologize here to everyone that warned me that I was wrong about your position.
My position is that you need to be kind to children, especially when you doing post-abortion outreach!
Do you not believe that a kid who has had multiple abortions needs real help and intervention? She needs a Savior and you had a chance but you blew it and responded with a smart remark and ran her off. It bothers me a lot because you could have helped her and you didn't. Jesus is kind and gracious to lost sinners.
I would suggest that you take some PAC classes and some basic Christian counseling classes. Teenagers are not tiny adults. You have to deal with them differently. This is serious business, this girls future and life is at stake and God gave you this incredible opportunity to open the door for healing, and your response missed it!
It is easy, really easy to say someone did something wrong, and I am not doing this to give you grief. I just was really troubled by the post. I have responded incorrectly to women in the begining, because it is easy to answer the words being spoken, it is a lot hard to answer the heart cry. Go back and reread a post abortion bible study, or sit in again and listen to the pain and tears, and take that memory with you everytime you talk to someone. She needed compassion, and you are old enough to look past the words and answer her hurt.
Carol Marie is much to soft on sin. I consider her a criminal myself. She facilitates sin instead of railing against it. I've failed to see positive signs of repentance after being post-abortive. Compassion is for the truly repentant; you have to be in the face of sinners. I agree with the bullhorn blazing out, "You are murderers!"
Jesus called people vipers, sons of Satan and murderers to their face; he didn't pansy around, he told the truth! And yes, he did settle down a crowd anxious to stone an adulterous woman to death; their behavior was excessive.

reply from: galen

I do not consider a girl around 16 that innocent if she has been sleeping around and has had three abortions. Shes no child, in the innocent sense.
I was nice to her carole. Get off it. No I did not offer to take her to lunch or dinner but I had probably a five minute calm conversation from my part with her.
She does need a Savior, the unsaved do. And how do you know that she wasnt a Christian? The majority of women that get abortions in America are Christian. Not everyone that come to the table are religious and a lot of people do not want to talk about religion, they state that upfront. In that case we are instructed to follow the scientific route.
It was not a smart remark CAROLE I believe it was the truth and that is why she ran. Maybe this comment will lead her to someone else that can help her understand what she did not want to listen to at our booth. She was not interested in what science had to say. She wasnt interested in anything and was rude and arrogant.
You think you know it all don't you Carole? You just have the perfect way don't you? No body can do it like you...who NEVER makes mistakes.

I have taken classes and I go to seminars and conventions. I resent that you said this. And guess what carole.......we all acknowledge not only the woman but the unborn child. You know the one that is dismembered during an abortion. You seem to ignore that large fact. This tiny adult you mention here.........murdered three children, she is not stupid. I WAS NOT UNKIND TO HER.
God has a plan for this girl. After she left.....my coworkers and I prayed for her and her friend. God will intervene if He sees fit.

You are saying this because you think yourself better than anyone on here. Its your methods, your style, your way or no way. I have been doing this for almost ten years, I AM NOT STARTING CAROLE. I have been around and have personally met and listened to many authorities on abortion and pro-life causes.......Janet Folger, Mark Crutcher, Randy Alcorn, David Bereit, Stephanie Gray, Dr. William Toffler......I have attended workshops......to see exactly what works in most circumstances. Am I perfect no.......we all cant be like you now can we?
I could have looked at her and said, you need Christ.....I could have looked at her and said a lot of things.......and she still could have run off. God has a plan and I do not feel like this was any lost opportunity.
She will remember my face because I spoke in kindness to her. That I can not describe here......but you probably would still have thought it mean I am sure. You dont like my style and that is ok.......many dont like yours either.
I put it all in Gods hands. No one is perfect, I did what I believed to be right, just like you do when you hand out your gift bags of chocolates, mugs, tracts and bibles.
SO ONCE AGAIN CAROLE.......I DID NOT RAISE MY VOICE I NEVER HAVE, I DID NOT YELL OR SAY MEAN THINGS TO THIS GIRL........I GAVE HER MATERIALS.......I SPOKE THE TRUTH TO SOMEONE THAT WAS PROUD OF HER ABORTIONS.
I doubt she ranbecause she felt bad about what she had done. She ran because she didnt have a come back for what i said.
There are those people out there carole that are proud of abortion and the pro-life cause. I go to ASU when they have the demonstrations over the graphic pictures we put up. You ought to talk to some of these people carole. If you stand there and do not know your stuff you get mowed over. You dont need to be mean, or nasty like most of them are to us but you need to be firm in what you say.
You know Christ threw the moneychangers out of the temple. He didnt stand in the corner smile and ask them nicely to move.
I think sometimes it is ok to be angry when someone is doing something bad. And carole abortion is bad. What would you say to someone that was kicking a dog? What would you say to someone that was bullying a kid? Would you take your bible over and tell them that they needed a savior? Anger is only wrong if it CONTROLS US. If we let our anger make us do or say things that are mean and unncessary. I said nothing of the sort to this young woman.

"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;"
Is it wrong carole to be angry that innocent children are being slaughtered?
If we believe it is wrong to show emotion, we hide our tears. And we may be hiding the truth of our actions and others actions as well.
I thought you gave them gift bags with chocolates and a bible in them? NO?
What do you put them in? And it is a gift carole. Listen I defended your actions here and I still do. But they are a gift. They certainly are a gift. A gift of love.
Sorry I believe the little bag you give out is a gift.
Christ gives us a free gift......salvation.
Why do you oppose calling it this? Why would you be sensitive if you believed that what you are doing was right?
__________________________________________________________-
there is so much of you in your preaching against CM ...it seem odd that you can'y figure out that what you Chm, have done to others is so wrong and so underhanded ... its really pathetic.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes, Churchmouse;
You were not yelling at her.
You were not telling her lies.
You were telling her true things....
Techically, you followed the rules.
But you didn't hear her heart.
Post abortion outreach isn't the same as debating someone or destroying their arguments, or exposing them in their convoluted thinking. It is a whole different ball of wax, especially when you are dealing with hurt little girls.
Basically, there are two responses to a deep hurt like abortion. fight or flight.
This little girl was ugly and in fight mode. She was doing it to test you, to find out if your were safe, because she couldn't take one more person hurting her. If you had loved her in spite of her uglieness, she would have been more likely to trust you and open up. Then she could get help. She came over because you were less likely to have failed the test (having had an abortion).
Teenagers, especially emotionally damaged ones do the fight behavior all the time. You said she wasn't innocent, and that is true, but early sexual behavior causes emotional scars and when you couple abortion to that you have real damage to her sexuality and her self-concept. That surface toughness or defiance is a protection devise. She is living in full-blown rebellion and love is the only thing that will break through that armor.

reply from: carolemarie

Carol Marie is much to soft on sin. I consider her a criminal myself. She facilitates sin instead of railing against it. I've failed to see positive signs of repentance after being post-abortive. Compassion is for the truly repentant; you have to be in the face of sinners. I agree with the bullhorn blazing out, "You are murderers!"
Jesus called people vipers, sons of Satan and murderers to their face; he didn't pansy around, he told the truth! And yes, he did settle down a crowd anxious to stone an adulterous woman to death; their behavior was excessive. [Q/]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you should list the signs of repentance that I need to exhibit, I must have missed the memo......
Jesus called religious leaders those names. He called sinners his friends.
And He demonstrated His love in this, that while we were still sinners He died for us. He didn't wait till we cleaned up our act, or suffered enough. He loved us first...
And now we are ministers of that gospel of reconcillation. That is why the Gospel is good news! I am not soft on sin, but I am gentle in dealing with people who are caught in it.
God had compassion for you while you were still in your sins. And we are to show that same kindness and longsuffering towards others who are still in their sins.

reply from: churchmouse

You are right about what Christ did. I did what I thought was right and I did not say it in a mean and nasty way. She makes me out to be the monster and this is unfair. I dont care what she thinks really.....its about the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. I know it hurt me when I realized I had KILLED MY UNBORN CHILD.
I think in all honesty carole probably does good work. I just think she is soft on sin and sinners need to hear the truth. The truth is that every woman that has an abortion KILLS. They can feel bad about it, run from it, champion it.......stand up for it, cry about it, debate about it........but it NEVER CHANGES WHAT ABORTION IS. Its murder.
I dont feel bad when people call me a murderer and throw my sin in front of my face. I know in my heart that Christ has forgiven me and made me new. I celebrate that fact. But I approach sinners with what I beleive to be the truth, that we are dead in our sin unless we repent and turn our life over to Christ.

However I work at a pro-life booth with not only Christians but people from all faiths, with athiests......agnostics. We are there not necessarily to witness the gospel (which we do every chance we get) but to stand up for the victim.......and that should NEVER BE OVERLOOKED.
Yes she ran. I ran for years and years and years until the truth caught up with me. Hopefully it wont take her that long.

Mary go write yet another Christian poem, you do them so well. And you mimic Christ so well Mary, oh your the example alright?
Pleaze.
carole said, "
Not soft? You just probably fail to even mention it. You can say things with impact and be kind.
You can see no other way than your own. Have you published Carole? How are you the ONE and only authority here?
Have I seen you at pro-life events, conventions, on television perhaps?

reply from: galen

You know what Chm....when you actually take out time to DO something other than rail against women...telling them your 'truth' than i will see YOU as a true Christian.
untill then i still think that you use the abortion fight for your own selfish ego boost.
Try spending some time with these women at 3 AM and see how rightous you are then when they are slobbering in thier grief to you. maybe then you will get a bit of the humility that would help you pass for human.

reply from: churchmouse

Rail against women? How do I rail agaisnt women? The truth mary is that abortion is murder. That is the hard truth. The truth mary is that any woman that gets one kills her unborn child. That mary is the truth.
Oh here it comes....mary the do it all girl. You puff yourself up so high its ridiculous. Only mary can do it. Only marrrrrry knows. Nobody else knows.....ooops I forgot carole, she knows and only her method is the right one. To hell what anyone else does, it certainly isnt enough in your opinion. You two are a one man band.......you dont need anyone else.
You just know it all dont you? How many women have you actually had LIVE AT YOUR HOUSE MARY? How many have you actually out of your own pocket.....supported, taken care of?
Do you actually think that you are the only woman in America that works or runs a crisis pregnancy center?
You are so conceited....a real self centered narcissist alright. Self love how grand.
Don't tell me what grief is......when you have not even had an abortion yourself. What you know is NOTHING COMPARED TO GOING THROUGH IT. You have no idea what grief is concerning abortion. The best you can do is to pretend my dear. And you do that very well.
You think you have discovered something that no one else has experienced mary.....the woman in a crisis pregnancy, the post abortive woman. Its clouded your ability to judge anything rationally thats for sure.
Oh your the enlightened one alright.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

"I dont care what she thinks really.....its about the truth. And the truth sometimes hurts. I know it hurt me when I realized I had KILLED MY UNBORN CHILD."
And so, you now want every woman you "counsel" to hurt like YOU? You are disappointed if they DON'T hurt? You're determined to MAKE them hurt instead of loving them and forgiving them for their past?
Not good. Won't work.

reply from: nancyu

I'll bet it works better than telling them there is nothing wrong with abortion. Of course she doesn't' want them to hurt. She wants them to NOT kill their children! Abortion is unacceptable, and we should not pretend otherwise.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I'll bet it works better than telling them there is nothing wrong with abortion. Of course she doesn't' want them to hurt. She wants them to NOT kill their children! Abortion is unacceptable, and we should not pretend otherwise.
I thought she was counseling POST-ABORTION women.

reply from: yoda

You mean to wish that every woman had an active, functioning conscience?
Really, that's too fantastic to even imagine, isn't it?

reply from: churchmouse

Absolutely not. I tell them that because many women think they won't regret their abortion. And the majority of women regret their abortions. Why would I want some woman to suffer?
I regret my abortion but I do not suffer anymore. I am worshipping God in the best way I know how by my pro-life work. He knows my heart and to suffer on a daily basis would not honor Him. God has forgiven me and changed my life. I want women to know that Christ can forgive them too.
You have to be honest about your experience however. The abortion I had at the time did not affect me in the least. I did not start to regret it until I had two children and over twenty years had passed. It devestated my life in so many ways I can even name them all. I am brutally honest with women in telling them what it did to me.

When I am with Right To Life events we talk to everyone, post abortive, pregnant woman, all sorts of people come up to talk to see what our booth is about. We not only talk about abortion but other pro-life issues.......stem cell, cloning, doctors assisted suicide.
When I go with my Silent No More groups to events.......we also talk to everyone but mainly women that have had abortions like we have. Also men that are grieving as well.
Most of us talk from EXPERIENCE BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL HAD ABORTIONS. Who could understand a grieving woman more than one that also killed an unborn child.

reply from: galen

Rail against women? How do I rail agaisnt women? The truth mary is that abortion is murder. That is the hard truth. The truth mary is that any woman that gets one kills her unborn child. That mary is the truth.
Oh here it comes....mary the do it all girl. You puff yourself up so high its ridiculous. Only mary can do it. Only marrrrrry knows. Nobody else knows.....ooops I forgot carole, she knows and only her method is the right one. To hell what anyone else does, it certainly isnt enough in your opinion. You two are a one man band.......you dont need anyone else.
You just know it all dont you? How many women have you actually had LIVE AT YOUR HOUSE MARY? How many have you actually out of your own pocket.....supported, taken care of?
Do you actually think that you are the only woman in America that works or runs a crisis pregnancy center?
You are so conceited....a real self centered narcissist alright. Self love how grand.
Don't tell me what grief is......when you have not even had an abortion yourself. What you know is NOTHING COMPARED TO GOING THROUGH IT. You have no idea what grief is concerning abortion. The best you can do is to pretend my dear. And you do that very well.
You think you have discovered something that no one else has experienced mary.....the woman in a crisis pregnancy, the post abortive woman. Its clouded your ability to judge anything rationally thats for sure.
Oh your the enlightened one alright.
__________________________________
Chm,
For your information, i give my entire paycheck to support the shelter.. and i've had more women than you can count on a dozen hands live with me when the shelter was full...so before you make broad sweeping statements.. get to know my history. My husband also gives his time and so do out 2 sons, and many of thier friends.
So yeah.. i know of what i speak in this case. No i've NEVER had an abortion... i never would stoop that low. I was raped and have lived as a homeless woman who was pregnant, and later as a battered and pregnant wife... so don't even try to go there. Your token appreiation of the prolife movement is pathetic when you come here and preach to everyone about who is and who is not saved, and who and who is not a Christian, or even a good person.
I have stayed up with women while thier husbands tried to find and kill them for the child they carried, threatened thier children, or burned thier home, car and whatever else they could. I have held women while they cried and tried to kill themselves after an abortion that was coerced and unwanted. i have held women who have come to the realisation of what they did to thier unborn, and themselves, and i have wiped thier tears and snot when they realised that thier life may never be the same but they had a life to live.I actually SEE these womenand thier pain. So don't go there.
What i have watched you do is throw over your 'i'm better than you ' attitude on everyone here who gets in your way... not even the worst posters here have done so much harm in so little time...
i have watched as you have turned women to abortion and given them just the excuse they need..'.look at the nasty prolifers and what they say... yeah my kid IS better off dead.. just to avoid the likes of them.. or just to be able to come here and make you mad...'
i tried hard to believe these were not your intentions at first.. but the proof is in the pudding... your like a vile toxic plant that poisons the very ground it grows in with your hateful words.
i think you have actually managed to offend almost every poster here in one way or the other... why don't you go back to church and REALLY listen to the Word of God this time, instead of using it to playact your little crusade?

reply from: carolemarie

Chm,
I don't believe you try to be mean, or that you want to . And maybe in real life it doesn't come accross the way it does in print. I hope so...

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Could this type of dissent be part of the reason that the pro-life movement really isn't getting anywhere?
You simply prove the point of my original post. And I think it's really odd that people devoted to such an important cause bicker over such ridiculous crap. Shame on the lot of you.

reply from: churchmouse

I am not going to get in a pissing match with you any more galen. You do more than anyone in the country I'm sure. So kudos to you and your family.
Whether we work a 40 hour, 60 hour, 1 hour week for this cause....nothing I'm sure could compare to the work you do. So Bravo......pat yourself on the back.
No history can compare to yours......I am sure you make that widely known everywhere, not only here. So claim the title of doctor, lawyer and Indian chief here.......I DO NOT CARE.
I'll continue on doing my tiny little bit as everyone else will too......and if one baby gets saved because WE remotely did something, I am sure we all will be real happy.
Mean? Really?
Carole I dont care what you think anymore. You have made your point crystal clear. And you really have judged my heart along with your criticism. Pat yourself on the back as well.......not going to get in a pissing match with you either. Its your way or not way, no one can do it good enough for your standards..........lets leave it at that.
First thing you've ever said I agree with. This is computer stuff,computer life, people trying to look important. I have never ever not even once had an argument with another pro-lifer in real life. We appreciate what we all do however small it is.
We have volunteers that work endlessly for this cause. They dont want nor need pats on the back.
I will take what you said here seriously and stop engaging in this petty bickering of who does more and who does it better. They can do it without me.
I do not feel I need to defend myself anymore to these attacks.
Thanks.

reply from: yoda

You mean for her to wish that every woman had an active, functioning conscience?
Really, that's too fantastic to even imagine, isn't it?

reply from: galen

galen"For your information, i give my entire paycheck to support the shelter.. and i've had more women than you can count on a dozen hands live with me when the shelter was full...so before you make broad sweeping statements.. get to know my history. My husband also gives his time and so do out 2 sons, and many of thier friends."
I am not going to get in a pissing match with you any more galen. You do more than anyone in the country I'm sure. So kudos to you and your family.
Whether we work a 40 hour, 60 hour, 1 hour week for this cause....nothing I'm sure could compare to the work you do. So Bravo......pat yourself on the back.
No history can compare to yours......I am sure you make that widely known everywhere, not only here. So claim the title of doctor, lawyer and Indian chief here.......I DO NOT CARE.
I'll continue on doing my tiny little bit as everyone else will too......and if one baby gets saved because WE remotely did something, I am sure we all will be real happy
________________________________________________
so why get so uptight about it....?
i post that here to inspire everyone to greater hieghts... and to let women who lurk and may have been in my situation that there are better futures for them . And if you have not gotten that yet that's YOUR problem.
Besides that i am not the only woman out there like me...there are many of us...but as far as i know i am the only one on this board... i don't get to go public with myself because of the nature of the shelter.. so i don't get to make speeches at fundraisers and the like or attend rallies etc...this is MY way of getting the message across...you might be surprised at how many lurkers out there who PM me and others, for help.
I will continue to spread it here for as long as i am able.

reply from: churchmouse

Oh I am sure you do.....only the purest intent to inspire others.......yea, ok, I'm sure......yea.
Oh I get it Mary, believe me I get it, LOL
I just am not going to get into a P___-match as to who does more, knows more and who does better with either you or carole anymore. Run with it honey........the top platform is yours that is if carole can handle that. LOL
You two can duke that one out.
I know what I do........that is all that matters. I do not need any pat on the back from anyone.

reply from: galen

and that's why you keep answering these posts!'''''
ROFLMAO>>>>
PS CM and i have had debates... but no real problems... go figure....in fact YOU are the only one here i have had a continued real problem with.

reply from: churchmouse

Oh you missunderstood honey, I am not rolling over and playing dead....sorry. If I dissagree with you I'll say so.
But your posts make it clear what type of person you are......I dont need to point that out and I wont.
They can read for themselves.
My opinion wont change. You might fool others.....but you do not fool me.

reply from: galen

i am most certainly NOT your honey....

reply from: galen

Geess... you really are a moron.....

reply from: churchmouse

And you are such a kind Christian Mary.

reply from: galen

____________________________________
You actually bring out the worst in me and others...Yikes?> maybe you are contagious... like a computer virus or something...

reply from: churchmouse

Just like you to blame others for your weaknesses.
You are dark.

reply from: galen

when have i ever blamed someone else for my weaknesses... i like them they make me who i am...
and yes i also like being 'dark'... it tends to make people do more thinking and less talking .... except for you... you tend to have diarrhea of the keyboard.

reply from: galen

probably not... it isn't part of her world...

reply from: churchmouse

mary.......nobody is on this site more than you are. When do you do all that good work you do?
Do you carry around a laptop all day? LOL

reply from: yoda

Wow, you're just a "Grouchy Gus" today, aren't you?
Tell you what, why don't you give me one of your patented shots of screaming profanity? That'll make you feel better!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

This is a thread about rude and obnoxious posters. The above post somehow seems to fill the bill.

reply from: galen

________________________________
Yep... i do actually, and no i think CP and Yoda are here quite a bit more than i am... i've been increasing my hours at the shelter...
alas, i am not yet allowed to go back and teach untill next semester... per my doctors. So you have another 3 mo or so of me.
never fear i will soon be back to a full time schedual and bacvk to posting every 3-4 mo or so.....* shrug*... you just picked a great time to join.

reply from: galen

This is a thread about rude and obnoxious posters. The above post somehow seems to fill the bill.
_______________________________
Yep and so does the stuff i am responding too.....

reply from: churchmouse

Teach? eeeeek
Do you use the same language you use here in the classroom?

reply from: galen

Teach? eeeeek
Do you use the same language you use here in the classroom?
__________________________________________
of cousrse not...you are invited to audit a class anytime... see if you can keep up.

reply from: churchmouse

Do I have to purchase my own cauldron or do you have enough to go around? LOL

reply from: yoda

Uh oh, Mary...... the kiss of death.....

reply from: yoda

Predictability is a virtue, don't you think?

reply from: yoda

Hey, this is the kind of place where it's most virtuous....... since we can't see each other, or hear each other..... predictability allows us to know where we each stand.... and establishes sincerity ........ oh, I see why you don't like it.

reply from: galen

HMMM i guess that makes me ... predicatably unpredicatable...

reply from: galen

________________________________________________
you would have to pay the same dues everyone else in medicine does....
and BTW... i am not pagan or wiccan... i'm GOTH... see if you can wrop your itty bitty mind around that!.

reply from: churchmouse

You mean doctors assisted suicide......get on your list? LOL

reply from: galen

You mean doctors assisted suicide......get on your list? LOL
_____________________________________________
no actually sitting down for more than 4 years to learn something, and then adding humanity and compassion to your brain.
YOU my dear in present form could not hope to heal anyone...you have no feelings for those who suffer. You are also WAY to judgmental to those whom you believe are going to hell... you are more likely to induce a heart attack than cure one.

reply from: galen

________________________________________________
you would have to pay the same dues everyone else in medicine does....
and BTW... i am not pagan or wiccan... i'm GOTH... see if you can wrop your itty bitty mind around that!.
LOL, exactly.
Actually, I am in desperate need of a cauldron!
____________________________
sorry i have absolutely no idea how to help you on that one.

reply from: yoda

On matters of morality with respect to abortion, I think I can predict how you will answer most questions..... otherwise, you wouldn't be much of a prolifer, IMO.

reply from: galen

LOL... one poster here does not seem to think i am very pro life...

reply from: galen

WOW you really can find anything on the net... move over bell book and candle store...

reply from: galen

possibly for a very large gathering on Sabbat?

reply from: churchmouse

I have a Masters in Fine Arts for your information.
I have taught at the college level so don't think you are the only one here with a degree darlin.

Heal someone? God heals Galen. Try giving Him the credit for once, instead of puffing youself up and taking the credit.
I am glad you brought suffering up because our pastor gave a wonderful sermon today on suffering for Christ.
The amount of misery in the world is incalcuble and the history of mankind is full of suffering Mary. Pastor said the chief purpose of life is not happiness, but the knowledge of God which in the end brings true and everlasting human fulfillment. Suffering is a part of life and it brings believers closer to Christ. When He asks us to to bear horrible suffering in this life, it is only with the prospect of a heavenly joy and recompense that is beyond all comprehension. There is eternal life that awaits those who have trusted in God in faith and obedience in this life. Those in Christ will suffer. Look at Paul. He not only suffered for preaching the gospel he suffered physical disease as well, then was executed. He found joy. Praise God.
I am sorry that you have had to deal with illness. I am sorry for anyone that suffers but to say that I dont care shows what hatred and bitterness you have stored up in your heart. Do you think that you are the only one that has suffered in their life? Get off the pity party Mary and find joy. It is a priviledge to suffer for God, you ought to know that if you are a Christian. His intentions are greater than ours and its hard sometimes to look beyond our immediate circumstances, but we are commanded to do so.
It says in Romans 8:28,"In ALL THINGS God works for the good of those who love Him,, who have been called according to His purpose."
No matter what the cause of a Christians suffering, God will use it for some good purpose. He has used mine, he used my mothers. Whether its to teach us something........develop character, build a deeper trust in Him, or to just test our faith, we have to look at suffering as a privilege in His name. What we suffer is pale in comparison to what Christ went through for us.
For your information Mary....no one sends anyone to hell but the person himself. You decide where your going. The scripture is clear on this. I condemn only actions not hearts. You just cant seem to be able to grasp that concept can you?
Suffering and grief can lead people to anger. We can bame others, blame God, we can draw closer to Him or move away. Should we compare our suffering to others? Would God want us to do that?
Pslams 34:18 says, "The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit."
Those of us who are suffering (and you are not the only one Mary) should do our best to focus on the positive and on hope......especially on Christ. FIND JOY.

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29)
Romans 8:18, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not
worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." In
2Corinthians 4:17, he says, "For our light affliction, which is but for a
moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory."

reply from: galen

and none of the above ^^^ gives you the right to treat others like trash....
Your education did not give you humanity or empathy or you would not treat others the way you do...
I have plenty of joy in my life thank you.

reply from: churchmouse

I do not treat anyone like trash.
It is sad mary that you think you are the only one that has suffered in her life.
The only one with a disease.......

reply from: galen

really... you really don't treat people like trash???
coulda fooled lots of people...
and i've never said i was the only one with a disease , nor have i ever acted like it... you on the other hand feel only YOU can direct anyone to God... your way or the highway....
go play with your Bible.

reply from: churchmouse

You have selective vision mary. You totally ignore your behavior and that of your friend.
It is amazing what people will do for sympathy.
Prove this mary, show how your absolute statement is true.
About Goth.......well from all I have seen, its dark. Look at your avatar. Dark.
So I went looking.....Here from a Goth website.
http://www.goth.net/goth.html

"People become Goth because they have been "spurned from normal society.... Goths are free thinkers, people who do not accept the moral rules of society because they're told........ the goth scene has a large proportion of gays/bisexuals, and followers of non-mainstream religions and views. This of course is the most important aspect of gothdom, and why most goths became goths in the first place, tolerance.......Most subjects that are taboo in 'normal' society are freely discussed and debated about. Death, religion, magick, mysticism, and many other topics that are only roached carefully outside of the gothic community.................Movies such as The Crow, and bands such as the Bauhaus helped establish the gothic image as dark, depressing, and even evil. As more and more 'dark' movies came out, ..........."
Wearing of symbols such as a Christian cross; an Egyptian ankh or "Eye of Ra," or "Eye of Horus;" a Wiccan pentacle, a Satanic inverted pentacle. etc........A fascination with death. They try "to find a different way of thinking about life, like trying to find beauty in life, pain and death. It's all a quest for immortality."...........
http://www.religioustolerance.org/goth.htm

And you said go play with your bible. EXACTLY why you seem to be dark because "playing with the bible" is obviously all you have done with yours. And you talk about me....just how do you honor and praise God with all your words and actions Mary.
I read the Word, pray on the Word and try to live the Word. I need no dark subcultrue to get through life......Christ is all I need.
You seem to have a revulsion when it comes to the Bible.


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