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Aborted babies in Heaven...

Do they forgive their mothers?

by: MotherForLife

The title says it all really. I'm very interested in your beliefs about this. When a baby is aborted, if its soul goes to Heaven then does it remember its mother and when the mother dies are they reunited? Is all forgiven? Does the baby 'grow' and is therefore a child/adult in Heaven?
I realise these are rather childish questions but as I do not have a religion, I can't turn to my faith for answers.

reply from: abc123

Mother for life,
Yes; EVERY aborted baby and innocent child will be in heaven. II Samuel 12:23- But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." Chapter 12 of II Samuel is an awesome testimony to God's saving grace even in the depths of David's sins (murder of Uriah and adultery) but their were still consequences for David's sin which were that God was going to take that child. In verse 13 David repents and Nathan replies the Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die but the son born to you will die.
David pleaded with God for the child but the child was still taken. Sin has consequences even when you are forgiven and David lived this out.
In regards to the mother and child being reunited it all depends on the mother, if she truly repents of the murdering of her child just as David did God will pour out His grace and mercy upon her and save her soul and they will be reunited....if not she will spend an eternity separated from God.
Some Catholics on this forum will tell you differently because most Catholics don't believe they can 'know' they are saved or not. Most Catholics will not be saved....For there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus-I Timothy 2:5. Mary is not a mediator through Jesus to God. Mary can't intercede or answer our prayers.

reply from: jujujellybean

What? Most Catholics on this forum will tell you differently? Huh?
An innocent baby goes right back to God; it didn't get a chance, never sinned, so it is purely white and goes straight into God's loving arms.
But isn't God the only judge? how can you honestly say you are saved? That would be like calling yourself God.
I cannot believe you just posted that. I am absolutely shocked. Most catholics will not go to heaven? You would know this how? So because of this quote that doesn't even have a judgment attached(you yourself having made this judgment using your own self, not God) you are going to tell me I won't go to heaven?

reply from: Faramir

I don't believe anyone gets a free ride to Heaven.
A baby who dies by abortion would undergo some kind of test. That's just my opinion, however.
I think any soul will have the choice to accept or reject God.
But ABC is the classic anti-Catholic, and may be through no fault of his own. I once believed terrible things about the Catholic Church as well, until I investigated it with an open mind, which led to my conversion to Catholicism.

reply from: abc123

I don't believe anyone gets a free ride to Heaven.
A baby who dies by abortion would undergo some kind of test. That's just my opinion, however.
I think any soul will have the choice to accept or reject God.
But ABC is the classic anti-Catholic, and may be through no fault of his own. I once believed terrible things about the Catholic Church as well, until I investigated it with an open mind, which led to my conversion to Catholicism.
Ok maybe not most, maybe some of the Catholics on this board will say this. So both of you are Catholics but believe differently on the topic of if an aborted baby goes to heaven. That seems to be a fairly huge discrepancy to me. JuJu, saying you are saved is nothing like calling yourself God; for we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by grace through faith in the catholic church & Mary & Jesus. I know without a shadow of a doubt that if I were to die right now I would be saved. I'm not saying that pridefully I am saying that because I know what God has changed me.
Faramir you can call me anti-Catholic or whatever, I am pro-truth; and much of the teachings of the Catholics church are lies (praying to the dead, indulgences, confessing your sins to a priest as your mediator instead of Jesus, penance, eucharist). Scripture never changes; if you stand upon the Rock of Christ He will never let you down. The pope & catholic church will and have........

reply from: jujujellybean

I don't believe anyone gets a free ride to Heaven.
A baby who dies by abortion would undergo some kind of test. That's just my opinion, however.
I think any soul will have the choice to accept or reject God.
But ABC is the classic anti-Catholic, and may be through no fault of his own. I once believed terrible things about the Catholic Church as well, until I investigated it with an open mind, which led to my conversion to Catholicism.
Ok maybe not most, maybe some of the Catholics on this board will say this. So both of you are Catholics but believe differently on the topic of if an aborted baby goes to heaven. That seems to be a fairly huge discrepancy to me. JuJu, saying you are saved is nothing like calling yourself God; for we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by grace through faith in the catholic church & Mary & Jesus. I know without a shadow of a doubt that if I were to die right now I would be saved. I'm not saying that pridefully I am saying that because I know what God has changed me.
Faramir you can call me anti-Catholic or whatever, I am pro-truth; and much of the teachings of the Catholics church are lies (praying to the dead, indulgences, confessing your sins to a priest as your mediator instead of Jesus, penance, eucharist). Scripture never changes; if you stand upon the Rock of Christ He will never let you down. The pope & catholic church will and have........
No they're not. if you would like to discuss matters of faith, let's do it over pm and go one issue at a time. It will be easier that way, because the long ones get so, well, long. I would like that.

reply from: Faramir

I don't really have a disagreement with Juju about the souls of those who die by abortion.
She hopes for the best for them, and so do I. But the Church has not yet spoken definitavely about it. Until then, we can have our own personal speculations.
I think it is likely they go to heaven, but I can't say that with certainty.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

How can something incapable of thought and without any memories go to heaven? Assuming heaven exists, that is.

reply from: abc123

You do have a disagreement....she says they will go to heaven and you say your not so sure. That sounds like a disagreement to me. If I say I don't think a Mormon is going to heaven and you say your not sure or not that is a disagreement. You see it is already in God's Word in the scripture from II Samuel but you would rather here it from man to believe it. That is not trust in God that is trust in man, God's creation.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Aborted babies in heaven? There ain't no such thing.
I am a devout Bible thumper and get my information from there. Man was made to rule, to be co-inheritors with the Christ (Messiah, King, Ruler). Those who become obedient will inherit not only the earth, but all things (the Universe). The rebellious will receive little more than threescore and ten. The Bible does seem to indicate they may get 100 years under God's Government, if they die then, they are accursed. The Bible revolves around calling students to become rulers and teachers in the coming Government of God.
Death is the absense of life. A person's thoughts perish in the day they die, the body turns back into dust. No man has ascended to heaven but Jesus only. The babies are in the same position they were before they were conceived. Death is sometimes compared to sleep in the Bible. A dead person is no different than an inanimate rock or stone. You are not alive anymore; similar to as if you had never been.
It is written that the spirit returns to God. Our bodies could be compared to computer hardware, and our mind (spirit) to software. The mind (spirit) or software can come to life again if installed into a body (computer hardware). Those given eternal life will be given a body composed of spirit (energy that doesn't break down) as opposed to a physical (energy that breaks down) body. That hasn't happened yet, the dead sleep in the dust of the earth. God has the ability to both kill the body and destroy the spirit (mind) if he so chooses. Therefore, you should fear him who has the power not only to kill your physical body, but to destroy your entire existence (the mind).
The Bible says we are required to forgive the repentant. Yes, it would be a truly hard thing to forgive someone who has done you wrong, even to the point that they killed you. They must be forgiven if they have become a different person. If they are still an unrepentant murderer, there is nothing to forgive; they are simply low-lifers meant for the fire where the rubbish is burnt up.

reply from: yoda

How does this relate to whether or not you think elective abortion is moral?

reply from: LolitaOlivia

^ I don't think it does. She's just curious. This is a pro-life forum and surely pro-life people who believe in an afterlife must have some theories about it.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Aborted babies in heaven? There ain't no such thing.
I am a devout Bible thumper and get my information from there. Man was made to rule, to be co-inheritors with the Christ (Messiah, King, Ruler). Those who become obedient will inherit not only the earth, but all things (the Universe). The rebellious will receive little more than threescore and ten. The Bible does seem to indicate they may get 100 years under God's Government, if they die then, they are accursed. The Bible revolves around calling students to become rulers and teachers in the coming Government of God.
Death is the absense of life. A person's thoughts perish in the day they die, the body turns back into dust. No man has ascended to heaven but Jesus only. The babies are in the same position they were before they were conceived. Death is sometimes compared to sleep in the Bible. A dead person is no different than an inanimate rock or stone. You are not alive anymore; similar to as if you had never been.
It is written that the spirit returns to God. Our bodies could be compared to computer hardware, and our mind (spirit) to software. The mind (spirit) or software can come to life again if installed into a body (computer hardware). Those given eternal life will be given a body composed of spirit (energy that doesn't break down) as opposed to a physical (energy that breaks down) body. That hasn't happened yet, the dead sleep in the dust of the earth. God has the ability to both kill the body and destroy the spirit (mind) if he so chooses. Therefore, you should fear him who has the power not only to kill your physical body, but to destroy your entire existence (the mind).
The Bible says we are required to forgive the repentant. Yes, it would be a truly hard thing to forgive someone who has done you wrong, even to the point that they killed you. They must be forgiven if they have become a different person. If they are still an unrepentant murderer, there is nothing to forgive; they are simply low-lifers meant for the fire where the rubbish is burnt up.
Your question reminds me of one asked by inquistive people of Jesus. A woman who had remarried multiple times died. They asked Jesus whose wife she'd be afterwards. Jesus replied that they were in error and did not understand the scriptures. There is no such animal as marriage in the kingdom.
Only mature fully developed (in mind) individuals receive an incorruptible body in the Kingdom. Job said, "In my flesh I will see the Lord." Like Job, the babies will have to begin the process all over again; this time under God's Government rather than man's government. There will be a resurrection of the just and unjust in the flesh (a thousand years after the Kingdom of God begins). If they suffer the 'second death', that's all of that person's existence. Only after one comes to complete maturity will they be allowed to inherit eternal life. Complete maturity means a useful servant for God; bringing life to the Universe is His project. We are the 'children of God", His offspring. God is Love; we must become the same. A rare handful (many are called, few are choosen) will receive eternal life at the first resurrection when the Messiah returns; they will not be subject to the second death. The saints will rise at the resurrection to meet Jesus in the air and go with Him to Jerusalem to set up the Kingdom.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

"Aborted babies in heaven, do they forgive their mothers?"
Absolutely, of course. That is the very nature of heaven. Forgiveness and love.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Dream on. Live in La La land if you want. A wonderful dreamland of love, hugs and kisses. Better start here in the real world making things right. What you see is what you get. The babies are dead. The moms turned them into a pile of sh*t; and that is real. The babies aren't anywhere smiling, cooing, giigling and having a good old time. Get real.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Their mothers did not turn the babies into fecal matter as the babies were not eaten and digested by the mother. That is the only way the mothers could turn their babies into pieces of sh*t.
Yes, abortion is a terrible thing and I agree with you that it should never happen. But it is impossible for people in heaven to feel anything but love; forgiveness is instant, because God is unconditional love, just as a child's love is unconditional.
You sound as if you do not believe in heaven. That, or you are saying the unborn do not have souls. Which is it? Rather hypocritical since your username is "GodsLaw4Us2Live".

reply from: Faramir

How does this relate to whether or not you think elective abortion is moral?
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...
At any rate, if you're interested in my perspective as a Catholic, any soul that makes it to Heaven would most certainly be forgiving of his mother and anyone else who wronged him, and would be praying and interceding for their conversion.
A soul that is separated from the body awaits a new body at the Resurrection, and at that time he will be given a perfect and incorruptible body. Nobody will be a resurrected fetus, old man, or amputee.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Heaven is where Jesus now as and is where our reward/positions/crowns are now reserved for us; something we shall be given when he returns.
The Bible says no man has ascended to heaven except for the one who came down from heaven; Jesus.
I believe "the meek shall inherit the earth", not a harp, angels wings and cloud in "heaven". Technically, the Bible describes three heavens (where the birds fly, where the stars are, where the throne of God is). When Elijah ascended into heaven it was where the birds fly. His servants searched for him among the mountains in case he came down in a rough landing. Elijah had been safely carried away to another country and later mailed a letter to one of the Kings of Judah or Israel pointing out shortcomings in the King's rule.
The goal is to enter the Kingdom, not heaven. The Kingdom shall be based on the earth, the inheritance of the meek.
I interpret, it seems, nearly everything in the Bible different than "traditional Christianity". People love the quick fix warm fuzzy feeling of the all consuming love and forgiveness of a utopia heaven. Utopia is based on our minds, behavior, love, attitude. Things don't get better just by going to a different location; a so-called heaven. We have to deal with the issues of hateful destructive selfish lust filled minds. That needs to happen in the here and now. Waiting for a different time and different place (heaven) will solve nothing.

reply from: AshMarie88

I believe they forgive their mothers, yes. I know my brother forgave my mom.

reply from: AshMarie88

How can someone, like you, incapable of intelligent thought and without any smart memories to to Heaven? Assuming your brain exists, that is.

reply from: yoda

Goodness, in between calling prolifers bad names, you sound like Elmer Gantry.....

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It seems I'm called hypocritical if I don't believe the traditional concept of heaven; that people go on living after death in a wonderful place called heaven.
I completely reject the idea that conscious living people go to heaven to enjoy life after death.
Look, our inheritance shall be the earth, The Utopia will not happen until people themselves become good caring loving creatures. Only a very few people will make the decision to start going down that path now.
Humanity is in rebellion and they are making life a living hell in many cases.
People themselves make life sweet, not some mysterious overriding influence in a La-La land in a distant heaven.
Let us love and care for others; that is where true heaven is.

reply from: AshMarie88

Yea I agree as before.

reply from: lukesmom

Excuse me!? Last I heard, you weren't God. And you obviously don't know alot about Catholics or the Catholic religion by making such a prejudiced and judgemental statement. Only God knows who will be admitted to Heaven and only God can judge a person's heart, soul and life. You setting yourself up as God's all knowing mouth piece may not be pleasing to God. I am Catholic and I pray to God and Jesus Christ AND the Virgin Mary and I am living life according to God's laws and Jesus' teachings as best I can and am planning on joining my son in Heaven.
Matthew 7: 1-5
Jesus said to his disciples: "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."

reply from: yoda

What's interesting to me in that oft quoted passage is that the term "measure" is used to indicate that a sentence has been passed or a fine has been levied. That's the sense of "judge" that only a real judge can impose.
The other sense simply means to form an opinion, and we all do that. There is nothing immoral about forming an opinion, and we have the constitutional right to express same.

reply from: lukesmom

What's interesting to me in that oft quoted passage is that the term "measure" is used to indicate that a sentence has been passed or a fine has been levied. That's the sense of "judge" that only a real judge can impose.
The other sense simply means to form an opinion, and we all do that. There is nothing immoral about forming an opinion, and we have the constitutional right to express same.
I don't know what "immoral" has to do with this. It is fine to have an opinion but what is NOT fine is blatant disrespect and judgemental statements. Now this may have been done in ignorance, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt being a good christian myself but I will let the op know so she can educate herself. After all if no one informs you your back brake lights are out, how would you know? Can you tell my brakes lites burnt out? Anyway, respect for other religious and non religious beliefs goes a long ways and hey, you may end up learning something too.
This is a Catholic dialog and prayer regarding the above passage:
Introductory Prayer: Lord Jesus, I place myself in your presence. I have set aside this moment for you, so that you can speak to me and I can listen to your words. Speak to my heart! I believe that you are present, with all the graces I need right now, in the current circumstances of my life. I hope in you, Lord, because I know I cannot place my hope in the things of the world. I love you, Lord, and I know how much you love me.
Petition: Lord God, remove the splinter from my eye! Help me to stop judging my neighbor.
1. For As You Judge... We all have a propensity for judging others. It can be hard to make it through a day without doing so. We judge the person in the yellow Hummer who cuts us off while talking on the cell phone; we judge the tired or grumpy spouse who forgets our needs; we judge the waiter who forgot we didn't want pickles on our burger. In short, we often judge quickly, mercilessly, and based on first impressions, without really knowing what's going on (or not going on) inside those around us. We see only the externals; God alone sees the heart. Today Christ invites us to take a look at ourselves instead. What do we really solve by judging others?
2. Judge Yourself, Too The truth is that people have annoying defects. Our Lord himself admits that it's easy to see a splinter protruding from our neighbor's eye - who couldn't notice that? Our neighbor's faults, however, shouldn't distract us from a sincere examination of ourselves. We have our own splinters to deal with, too. At the end of the day, judging obtains little or nothing productive; rather, it is much more fruitful to spend our time rooting out our own defects instead. "Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?"
3. Increasing our Sight Removing a splinter is painful work, and the longer you wait the worse it gets! Removing them from our life brings about the happy result of a more profound self-understanding, as well as an increased empathy for others. Once removed from our eye, we can see better where we are and whither we are going; we can judge better what to do and how to do it. Let us reflect deeply during this meditation on Our Lord's words: "Remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
Dialogue with Christ: "CHRIST: My child, do not be curious nor concern yourself with useless cares. What is this or that to you? What difference does it make whether this person is good or bad, or whether one acts or speaks this way or that? You do not have to answer for others, but you must give an account of yourself" (Thomas à Kempis, The Imitation of Christ, Book III, Chapter 24).
Resolution: Today, before Christ, I will make a sincere examination of my most prominent defects.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

How does this relate to whether or not you think elective abortion is moral?
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...
At any rate, if you're interested in my perspective as a Catholic, any soul that makes it to Heaven would most certainly be forgiving of his mother and anyone else who wronged him, and would be praying and interceding for their conversion.
A soul that is separated from the body awaits a new body at the Resurrection, and at that time he will be given a perfect and incorruptible body. Nobody will be a resurrected fetus, old man, or amputee.
So according to the catholic view, where are souls going to right now?

reply from: JesusLovesYou

Of course, Lolita and Scarifairy won't be reunited with their dead babies, since I figure they'll both be going someplace a little warmer... I think if a woman repents her abortion she will meet her baby in heaven and her baby will forgive her.

reply from: abc123

Excuse me!? Last I heard, you weren't God. And you obviously don't know alot about Catholics or the Catholic religion by making such a prejudiced and judgemental statement. Only God knows who will be admitted to Heaven and only God can judge a person's heart, soul and life. You setting yourself up as God's all knowing mouth piece may not be pleasing to God. I am Catholic and I pray to God and Jesus Christ AND the Virgin Mary and I am living life according to God's laws and Jesus' teachings as best I can and am planning on joining my son in Heaven.
Matthew 7: 1-5
Jesus said to his disciples: "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
Luke's mom,
Actually God's word tells us what to do to be saved. You don't have to not be sure about it, you can really know. So are you saying we are never to make judgements on anyone? I don't understand what you are saying. Have you made a judgement in regards to what you think about abortion? I assume you have. Would you judge someone that stole your car? Yes you would. If God has already made a judgement in His word than we aren't the one's judging it, God already has. Praying to Mary is not biblical; never did Paul or anyone else in the NT pray to Mary. Again Christ is the only mediator between man and God. If you have a scripture that backs up the catholic church claim of prayer to Mary I would love for you to point that out to me.
God Bless......

reply from: LiberalChiRo

So, how about them devoutly christian axe murderers? Does NOTHING you do in life matter as long as you confess to Jesus Christ? I'm sorry, I just don't believe God is that blind. By your own reckoning, if Lolita and Cairy dedicated themselves to Jesus Christ right before they died, they will go to heaven; yet I bet you'd hate to see that.

reply from: JesusLovesYou

If you accept Jesus into your heart you go to heaven. Lolita and Cary haven't done that and don't seem to plan on doing it.

reply from: Jameberlin

I don't believe anyone gets a free ride to Heaven.
A baby who dies by abortion would undergo some kind of test. That's just my opinion, however.
I think any soul will have the choice to accept or reject God.
But ABC is the classic anti-Catholic, and may be through no fault of his own. I once believed terrible things about the Catholic Church as well, until I investigated it with an open mind, which led to my conversion to Catholicism.
no wonder i like you so much, you're Catholic and you made income tax illegal!

reply from: Jameberlin

Heaven is where Jesus now as and is where our reward/positions/crowns are now reserved for us; something we shall be given when he returns.
The Bible says no man has ascended to heaven except for the one who came down from heaven; Jesus.
I believe "the meek shall inherit the earth", not a harp, angels wings and cloud in "heaven". Technically, the Bible describes three heavens (where the birds fly, where the stars are, where the throne of God is). When Elijah ascended into heaven it was where the birds fly. His servants searched for him among the mountains in case he came down in a rough landing. Elijah had been safely carried away to another country and later mailed a letter to one of the Kings of Judah or Israel pointing out shortcomings in the King's rule.
The goal is to enter the Kingdom, not heaven. The Kingdom shall be based on the earth, the inheritance of the meek.
I interpret, it seems, nearly everything in the Bible different than "traditional Christianity". People love the quick fix warm fuzzy feeling of the all consuming love and forgiveness of a utopia heaven. Utopia is based on our minds, behavior, love, attitude. Things don't get better just by going to a different location; a so-called heaven. We have to deal with the issues of hateful destructive selfish lust filled minds. That needs to happen in the here and now. Waiting for a different time and different place (heaven) will solve nothing.
Isn't it interesting, that people who live Sola Scriptura, all interpret the scriptures differently? If the scripture is really ALL we need, why is there so much disagreement among those who look only to the scriptures?
Oh wait, i get it.. you're right.. and everyone else is wrong.

reply from: Jameberlin

Excuse me!? Last I heard, you weren't God. And you obviously don't know alot about Catholics or the Catholic religion by making such a prejudiced and judgemental statement. Only God knows who will be admitted to Heaven and only God can judge a person's heart, soul and life. You setting yourself up as God's all knowing mouth piece may not be pleasing to God. I am Catholic and I pray to God and Jesus Christ AND the Virgin Mary and I am living life according to God's laws and Jesus' teachings as best I can and am planning on joining my son in Heaven.
Matthew 7: 1-5
Jesus said to his disciples: "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
Luke's mom,
Actually God's word tells us what to do to be saved. You don't have to not be sure about it, you can really know. So are you saying we are never to make judgements on anyone? I don't understand what you are saying. Have you made a judgement in regards to what you think about abortion? I assume you have. Would you judge someone that stole your car? Yes you would. If God has already made a judgement in His word than we aren't the one's judging it, God already has. Praying to Mary is not biblical; never did Paul or anyone else in the NT pray to Mary. Again Christ is the only mediator between man and God. If you have a scripture that backs up the catholic church claim of prayer to Mary I would love for you to point that out to me.
God Bless......
Catholics believe that when we pray "to" a saint, we are, in fact, in direct dialog with that saint. It is no different, for us Catholics, than it is for you fundamentalists who ask a neighbor, loved one etc. to pray for you. It's not idolarty, its communication, it is a misconception that Catholics worship saints, if you're further confused as to what Catholics believe, i suggest you refer to the Nicene Creed, which sums it up nicely.
The following statements are my opinion...
The bible was originally a collection of books that were compiled into one whole manuscript hundreds of years after Christ. I'd like to point out, also, that it was men who decided which books to put into the Christian bible, not God, therefore citing scripture with no thought or question would be putting your faith in those men who decided which books were worthy of being considered scripture, not the authors of the books or God who influenced them.
I'd also like to say that the Torah (the pentatuch, or books of Moses) were written by Jews from oral tradition. In fact the word Torah in rabbinic literature denotes both the written text "Torah Shebichtav" (lit. Torah that is written) and "Torah Shebe'al Peh" (lit. Torah that is oral), i find it interesting that Christians often refer to a book that was written after oral traditions that were passed down for generations as the only authoritative source on religion.
Finally, in response to the ACTUAL TOPIC:
I believe that aborted babies go to heaven, i believe that since we are made perfect in heaven, we cannot help but to forgive others... regardless of the status of the offenders salvation (or lack there of).
I also believe heaven is not a physical place, but a spiritual one.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

If you accept Jesus into your heart you go to heaven. Lolita and Cary haven't done that and don't seem to plan on doing it.
You have to quit breaking the law to receive eternal life. This novel concept is called repentance. John the Baptist refused to baptize anyone not bringing forth fruits worthy of repentance.
What does accepting Jesus into your heart mean? Just a bunch of worthless words. You accept Jesus as the Christ (Messiah) by actually obeying Him, obeying the commands. Jesus administers His Father's Law.
This floating off to heaven and accepting Jesus are just a bunch of meaningless terms. What do you mean "accept Jesus"; is this a 30 second prayer to get your fair share of salvation?
Amend your ways, and your doings; this is the Way to eternal life.
Baptism: symbolizes burying the old man and previous way of life. You commit to actually doing the good and eschewing the evil.
Passover Lamb Sacrifice: Jesus leads us on the Exodus out of slavery to sin to the Promised Land (Kingdom). But first, his blood must pay for the sins previously committed. His propitiation allows God to Pass Over us for death.
As always, eternal life is based 100% on how you decide to behave in the future. If you are committed to practicing sin you will die. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. If you continue sinning you will perish, no ifs, ands or buts; it doesn't matter how often you've mentioned the "mystical" name of Jesus or how many times you've said the sinners prayer to "ask Jesus into your heart".
Behavior, behavior, behavior. Behavior is based on what you think; therefore, the Bible commands you to control your thought life. Replace your evil thoughts with whatever is lovely, pleasant and true. God has commanded, "Be perfect". He means what He says.

reply from: lukesmom

Here is a simple explaination of why Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary specifically. Mary was hand picked by God to carry His son. She was given the choice to do this but due to her great faith she consented and faced harsh condemation from her community, friends and most likely family. Catholics believe she was without sin. Mary also taught Jesus about life, humanity and religion on earth. She was Jesus' beloved mother. She also was the instigater of Jesus' first miracle, changing water into wine. She interceded for the bridegroom and Jesus granted her request, mainly because of His great love for His beloved mother. Now, think of it this way. You are a child and really, really want something. Who do you go to? Mom because you know she can intercede for you with your father. Same with Mary and Jesus. Also, for me, Mary is a woman and understands women and mothers and I know she understands a womans and mothers joys, sufferings and tribulations and I know she knows the pain of losing a beloved child and watching that beloved child die. That is why I pray to Mary as well as Jesus and God. That is why I love Mary along with Jesus and God. And I don't pray as a Catholic but instead as a child of God same as others of different religions.

reply from: Faramir

And Catholics are fully aware that Mary is a creature, and in no way an equal to God or Jesus.

reply from: lukesmom

Excuse me!? Last I heard, you weren't God. And you obviously don't know alot about Catholics or the Catholic religion by making such a prejudiced and judgemental statement. Only God knows who will be admitted to Heaven and only God can judge a person's heart, soul and life. You setting yourself up as God's all knowing mouth piece may not be pleasing to God. I am Catholic and I pray to God and Jesus Christ AND the Virgin Mary and I am living life according to God's laws and Jesus' teachings as best I can and am planning on joining my son in Heaven.
Matthew 7: 1-5
Jesus said to his disciples: "Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye? You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
Luke's mom,
Actually God's word tells us what to do to be saved. You don't have to not be sure about it, you can really know. So are you saying we are never to make judgements on anyone? I don't understand what you are saying. Have you made a judgement in regards to what you think about abortion? I assume you have. Would you judge someone that stole your car? Yes you would. If God has already made a judgement in His word than we aren't the one's judging it, God already has. Praying to Mary is not biblical; never did Paul or anyone else in the NT pray to Mary. Again Christ is the only mediator between man and God. If you have a scripture that backs up the catholic church claim of prayer to Mary I would love for you to point that out to me.
God Bless......
Of course we all make judgements, we are human! But we are not called upon to judge who is worthy and who is not, only God can do that. I have never had my car stolen, did have my purse stolen and wondered what kinda person could/would do that but judged them? No. Didn't think about it actually. I've got too much to worry about with myself and my family to waste time on judging. In all truth, I don't read the bible and don't know much scripture. I do know God though. He is with me daily and works through me when I talk to moms facing the worst times of their lives. He has carried me when I couldn't go on anymore. He has given me the greatest joy in the most horrible pain and sorrow a mother could know. I am alive, I am here, I am joyful becuase of Him. Will I show you scripture? No, don't know any and I don't have to prove anything to anyone and don't have to judge anyone in God's name. I leave those decisions to Him. He can handle it.
God bless, Sue, Luke's mom

reply from: Faramir

Catholics who attend Mass regularly hear over 70% of the scriptures every three years.
We do get a lot of exposure to it, even if we don't read it ourselves.

reply from: lukesmom

Yes, forgot to point that out. Thank you.

reply from: Faramir

Yes, forgot to point that out. Thank you.
You know a lot more about the Bible than you think.
Unless you sleep through the readings.
I'm usually wide awake for the readings, but unfortunately have develped the bad habit of the homily being my nap time.

reply from: lukesmom

Thank you again, that is true. I have to point out, Faramir is a convert and I am a cradle Catholic so am so "used to" Catholic teachings and beliefs I don't think too much about it. It is funny because my dh is a convert too and actually new to faith although being raised an active Lutheran. Somehow, I have always had faith and God in my life. When given Luke's diagnosis, I didn't have to search or flail for God. I felt Him with me and my saying "Your will be done" was not foreign. And those were my actual words out loud. We are all God's children, created and loved by Him. Do you really think He cares what religion we are as long as we believe in Him and do our best to follow His teachings?

reply from: lukesmom

Yes, forgot to point that out. Thank you.
You know a lot more about the Bible than you think.
Unless you sleep through the readings.
I'm usually wide awake for the readings, but unfortunately have develped the bad habit of the homily being my nap time.
Nope, I am usually wide awake during the readings and I LOVE the homily! Many times I feel that God and the priest are talking directly to me. I can't explain how when I was carrying Luke, how each word was directed to me personally. Sometimes sending me into tears of greatfulness and sorrow until one Sunday, my crying scared my daughter and the old man next to me. That was a low point, I felt I had to give up mass in consideration of others. Fortunantly I delivered shortly after this and I was able to return to mass.

reply from: Faramir

Your story of faith and courage is very moving and inspiring. I encourage others to click on your link and read it.

reply from: Faramir

I'm going through some kind of slump as far as my faith is concerned. When I converted, I was "on fire." I went to mass every day for three years, and did all kinds of projects in the Church, and then I let some hard circumstances (not as hard as what you went through) get to me, and now I'm barely dragging myself to Church every Sunday.

reply from: carolemarie

I believe that the aborted babies are in heaven, with God.
They are not babies in heaven. They are souls. The first face they saw was Gods, and they are alive not dead.
I believe they will meet their mothers and that they love them, and have forgiven them. I think they are rooting for their mom's and dad's to get saved and get to come into the kingdom.
I use to believe differently before I was saved.

reply from: kentuckyjoe

Does the soul of a baby that died from a miscarriage and one that was aborted go to the same place? If so, why? If not, why not?

reply from: lukesmom

I'm going through some kind of slump as far as my faith is concerned. When I converted, I was "on fire." I went to mass every day for three years, and did all kinds of projects in the Church, and then I let some hard circumstances (not as hard as what you went through) get to me, and now I'm barely dragging myself to Church every Sunday.
When my dh converted he drove me absolutely insane! He tried to do everything and "convert" everyone, including me because my faith is more silent. Finally Sr talked to him and explained how our faiths were on different "levels" and dh couldn't "pitch a tent" on the top of the mountain. Like Peter, James and John, he would eventually have to come down from the mountain to everyday earth. THAT is where faith happens. You may have "burnt yourself out" but dragging yourself is a grace in itself. Faith is easy in the good times but true faith is born in the difficult times. Keep going, keep praying and keep the faith and you will find a deeper and more fulfilling faith when you come out of the "slump". Give the slump to God and let Him help you. Sometimes we forget to do this and actually ask Him for help.

reply from: lukesmom

Why would they "go" to different places? They are both innocent children of God who have done no harm.
My son died 45 min after birth. I see him in my minds eye being held in God's arms in a world of love, happiness and extreme peace. I see that God's arms can hold all His chidren and all are safe.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you accept Jesus into your heart you go to heaven. Lolita and Cary haven't done that and don't seem to plan on doing it.
But what if they did?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I think my question got lost. Where do Catholics believe souls go to at the moment? The pope said purgatory doesn't exist.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

The spirit returns to God who gave it, that is what the Bible says. I tend to use the term "soul" as referring to the entire existence of a living entity, including the physical body. The body returns to dust, the spirit returns to God who gave it; both of these are stated in the Bible. The mind, composed of spirit, can come back to functionality later at one of the resurrections. I believe the children shall not be consciously aware again until the 1000 year Sabbath reign is over. The Bible says the saints are resurrected at the start of the millenial reign to rule with Christ on the earth but the rest of the dead shall not be resurrected until the millenial reign is over (thousand year Sabbath from man's work). I believe after the second resurrection the babies shall be given an opportunity to grow, learn and decide on whether to accept eternal life under the Kingdom of God's rulership.

reply from: lukesmom

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this? Remember Catholasism was the first christian religion so we are not that different from other christian religions.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this? Remember Catholasism was the first christian religion so we are not that different from other christian religions.
But I was told by one of them that souls don't go to Heaven right now and the only person in heaven right now is Jesus...

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this?
All who die go to hell (hole in the ground, grave, pit); nobody goes to heaven. The dump near Jerusalem called Gehenna used fire to burn dead bodies and other trash. Gehenna fire is a symbol for eternal destruction, one's entire future is lost, it is an everlasting punishment. However, no one conciously burns forever. Malachi 4:3 says the wicked "...will be ashes under the soles of your feet...." Death is the absence of life. Hell is the grave. Like Jonah, even Jesus went to hell after death, but his body was not left there to suffer corruption (decay). The earth is better than Heaven because after all rebellion is put down and the wicked removed, even God Himself shall move His throne to the earth (earlier, only Jesus will work directly with mankind). Nobody is going to heaven.

reply from: 4given

Romans 14:8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. (NIV)
Philippians 3:20-21 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (NIV)
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (NIV) 1 Peter 1:3-5
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (NIV)
2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day - and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. (NIV)
Revelation 21:1-4
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away ... I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God ... And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (NIV)
1 Corinthians 15:50-53 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed - in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (NIV)

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Hm. Glad I'm not Catholic.

reply from: Jameberlin

I don't recall ever hearing that purgatory doesn't exist, but i have heard that we're not required to believe in limbo, where they used to say all the unbaptized babies go.

reply from: 4given

What exactly are you? What post were you responding to?

reply from: Jameberlin

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this? Remember Catholasism was the first christian religion so we are not that different from other christian religions.
But I was told by one of them that souls don't go to Heaven right now and the only person in heaven right now is Jesus...
who said that?!

reply from: lukesmom

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this? Remember Catholasism was the first christian religion so we are not that different from other christian religions.
But I was told by one of them that souls don't go to Heaven right now and the only person in heaven right now is Jesus...
who said that?!
My question exactly. Who did say that because it is not true for the Catholic faith at all. Jesus lived and died on the cross to open Heaven's door for all of us. That is what I was taught. Also, when did the pope say there was no purgatory? If he said that, I missed it.
Cheereo, Being a Catholic is great! You can't believe the wonderful church and school filled with the most supportive people you can imagine. My dh laughs at me because I won't move from this town because of our church family. Catholic rocks and that from a soon to be 50 yr old!

reply from: Jameberlin

Being a Catholic is really great, and there are a lot of wonderful people in the church that are just.... too beautiful for words! There are some baddies, yeah, that's true with any large group of people, but they in no way represent the majority of Catholics.
I think there are some serious misconceptions going around (some of them being spread by Catholics) about what it means to be Catholic.. I find it a little more than funny, though, that i have personally known people with strong anti-Catholic sentiments that tried to learn more about the religion to be able to debunk it... and ended up converting.

reply from: Faramir

She was confusing purgatory and limbo.
Purgatory is part of Catholic doctrine, but Limbo is not, and never was more than speculation.

reply from: Jameberlin

i kind of figured that, which is why i tried to clear it up a little.

reply from: yoda

"Immoral" has to do with what is "right and wrong". Is this not about "right and wrong"?
It's sorta hard to get a handle on what you mean by "judgmental". Is this what you mean?
Main Entry:
judg·men·tal Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or involving judgment 2 : characterized by a tendency to judge harshly <judgmental prigs>

reply from: abc123

Praying to the dead is not biblical; man is appointed to die once then comes judgement. Their are no indulgences that can be made on earth for the dead nor are your prayers heard by the dead. You are basically bypassing the mediums and 'trying' to call up the dead yourself.
"And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people." (Leviticus 20:6)
You only have one change at salvation and that can only happen BEFORE you die on this earth.
Why do Catholics feel the need for the dead to intercede? Isn't it enough to have God the Son interceding for us? Does the Creator of the Universe need the help of mortal men and women to persuade the Father on our behalf?
What a degrading attitude towards Jesus Christ. The Catholic position insults the Lord by portraying Him as an incapable, powerless bystander who needs the help of anyone He can grab to persuade the Father. This is not the picture of Jesus presented in the Bible. Jesus declared of Himself:
"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9
So what will you do....will you continue to follow the tradition of man or will you conform yourself to the Word of God?

reply from: Faramir

You are demonstrating a profound ignorance of Catholicism, and what Catholics believe.
Of course God does not need mortal men to do what He can do. He is omnipotent. He does not need mankind to bring more people into existence. He could pop them all into existence at will. But he gives man a share in the creative process.
He also allows us to help each other and to pray for each other. Those souls who have left this earth can also intercede for us and pray for us, just like we would ask a friend to pray for us.
You totally mischaracterize the Catholic position about Jesus, since we know that through Him all was created, and by him, all have been redeemed. There is no way to Heaven but through Jesus.
So far you have not been criticizing Catholicism, but have been criticizing a cartoon image you have of it.

reply from: abc123

Lukesmom,
Yes Mary was the vessel that brought the Savior Jesus into this world but Mary was human just like you and me. Mary was not without sin; if she was she would not have needed a Savior.
Luke 1:46-47 - And Mary said:"My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary does not intercede for us to Jesus....Jesus is the mediator for man to God and that is all that is needed.
I urge you to search for the truth in the Bible, I saw you stated you really don't read God's word very often in another post. Start to read it and some of the contradictions you are being taught in your Church will be shown to you.
Trust in God and not man.
God Bless

reply from: abc123

You are demonstrating a profound ignorance of Catholicism, and what Catholics believe.
Of course God does not need mortal men to do what He can do. He is omnipotent. He does not need mankind to bring more people into existence. He could pop them all into existence at will. But he gives man a share in the creative process.
He also allows us to help each other and to pray for each other. Those souls who have left this earth can also intercede for us and pray for us, just like we would ask a friend to pray for us.
You totally mischaracterize the Catholic position about Jesus, since we know that through Him all was created, and by him, all have been redeemed. There is no way to Heaven but through Jesus.
So far you have not been criticizing Catholicism, but have been criticizing a cartoon image you have of it.
Faramir,
So do you or don't you pray to dead people and for dead people to 'get them out of purgatory' and into heaven? THERE IS NO ONE ELSE WHO NEEDS TO INTERCEDE FOR US TO THE FATHER BUT JESUS AND JESUS ALONE! Not Mary, not a dead relative, not Paul, not Peter, not the Pope, not your priest, no one but JESUS!

reply from: Faramir

I pray for the souls of the dead.
But praying to a saint in Heaven is not the same as praying directly to God, which of course I do, as do all Catholics. Praying to a saint is asking for his intercession.
Again, God is not limited and God can do just fine without one speck of creation, and without one human being in existence, but he chose to create us, he chose to be one of us, and he chose to allow us to participate in creation and in the salvation process, but all is because of God and through God, and we are nothing without him.

reply from: Rosalie

Just out of curiosity - does it no longer comfort you to go to the Church every week?
I'm just asking because I usually hear people saying that their religion is their biggest comfort when they are going through a rough patch.
I realize that I am a newbie here (although I have been lurking for months) and that this is a personal question, so please feel free to disregard if you don't feel comfortable answering it.

reply from: Faramir

Just out of curiosity - does it no longer comfort you to go to the Church every week?
I'm just asking because I usually hear people saying that their religion is their biggest comfort when they are going through a rough patch.
I realize that I am a newbie here (although I have been lurking for months) and that this is a personal question, so please feel free to disregard if you don't feel comfortable answering it.

reply from: Faramir

Just out of curiosity - does it no longer comfort you to go to the Church every week?
I'm just asking because I usually hear people saying that their religion is their biggest comfort when they are going through a rough patch.
I realize that I am a newbie here (although I have been lurking for months) and that this is a personal question, so please feel free to disregard if you don't feel comfortable answering it.
Hello newb, and welcome. Of course you can ask me a question.
I most definately still find a certain amount of peace when I go to Church, and if I had half a brain, would go at least once or twice during the week as well.
It is just that in the beginning years of my conversion I had the most amazing and wonderful time, and had never been so happy, or ever known it was possible to be so happy.
But one day the rug was pulled out--that's about how sudden it was, and I have been through some very gloomy years and have not been a happy camper.
I understand that in being a Christian we must "carry the cross," and I was sort of hoping I could avoid that unpleasantry, but I have not been so lucky (or perhaps unlucky). But I have seen many others who have had much harder circumstances, and seem to be going through them much better than I have, so I think I need to stop being a wuss.
The bottom line is that I do still find peace and comfort in my faith, but the happy and bubbly times and feelings like I'm walking on clouds are no longer there. That was a wonderful time while it lasted, but I understand that in the beginning God was treating me like a child, and now I am being treated like a grown man, and being given real food and not candy, and it's not as much fun, but is for my own good, and so that I might learn to be humble.
Sorry for rambling--I probably told you more than you wanted to know.

reply from: abc123

So if you believe that both God and the dead hear your prayers why would you need the to have the dead intercede for you when you have the ear of God?

reply from: faithman

So if you believe that both God and the dead hear your prayers why would you need the to have the dead intercede for you when you have the ear of God?
So you can sell little medals, get the gulible to pay to light candles, and guilt trip folks into paying to build big cathedrals. Error usually has the love of money and power attached to it.

reply from: Faramir

So if you believe that both God and the dead hear your prayers why would you need the to have the dead intercede for you when you have the ear of God?
Do you think it is wrong to ask a friend to pray for you? If a friend or relative is going through a hard time and asks for your prayers, will you offer to pray for them, or will you tell them to do it themselves and go direct to God?
Of course I also pray directly to God. But the greater does not exclude the lesser.
And besides going to Church on Sundays, I somtimes spend time in the chapel communicating with God. But that communication does not preclude my communication with imperfect people like myself.
Humanity is one big family and it is God's will that we all help each other get to Heaven.

reply from: Rosalie

Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the reply. It's always interesting to find out about different religions and people's takes on it, as well as their personal journeys.
I have only superficial understanding of Catholicism, I flat out admit that. But in a way, your relationship with God is a relationship like any other, meaning you have to work on it, don't take it for granted etc. Maybe you have just moved from the first stage of the relationship to the other. We all (religious folk or not) tend to dislike changes of all sorts because most of us cling to what we know, what we've gotten used to over the time. Changes are somewhat scary for us because it means exploring all new possibilites. But sometimes, a lot of times actually, a change is not a bad thing.
In comparison that first stage the stage you are in may not seem as great as the one before, but maybe on its own it's got some much more profound charm and meaning. Maybe all that is required is taking a step back and looking at the whole picture. Or maybe not - this is just my take on it.

reply from: Faramir

You're right, Rosalie.
When you find a new faith, it can be like a marriage.
During the honeymoon, everything is wonderful.
It's easy for a man to say he loves his wife when he is first married and having sex 20 times a day.
But then comes responsibilty, children, differences of opinion, characteristics that once seemed cute, but are now annoying, financial problems, health problems, etc., and that's the test of whether there is a real marriage, and an opportunity for both to sacrifice, mature, and grow.
So I think you're right that I am in my "second stage," and I know it's natural and for the best, but I don't like it.

reply from: abc123

So if you believe that both God and the dead hear your prayers why would you need the to have the dead intercede for you when you have the ear of God?
Do you think it is wrong to ask a friend to pray for you? If a friend or relative is going through a hard time and asks for your prayers, will you offer to pray for them, or will you tell them to do it themselves and go direct to God?
Of course I also pray directly to God. But the greater does not exclude the lesser.
And besides going to Church on Sundays, I somtimes spend time in the chapel communicating with God. But that communication does not preclude my communication with imperfect people like myself.
Humanity is one big family and it is God's will that we all help each other get to Heaven.
Asking a friend who is alive is different than asking a dead person to pray for you.
Look what happened to Saul for trying to call up the dead by consulting a medium:
So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse. I Chronicles 10:13-14
I Samuel 15:23a: For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
You can read about how Saul tried calling up Samuel (who was dead at this point) by disguising himself and going to see the Witch of Endor in I Samuel 28.
Calling on the dead is sin and against God's word.

reply from: Rosalie

I understand your analogy but I don't agree with it 100%. I think that there are ways to make any stage of relationship enjoyable. A lot of it is about love, willingness for a compromise, life experience and also attitude. I consider myself to be extremely lucky as far as finding my other half goes and that fact alone has a great impact on my outlook on relationships, but then again, hardly anyone ever had it easy. We all face all kinds of challenges.
Please don't think that I'm trying to imply that you're not trying hard enough, that's not what I'm saying at all. But there is obviously some kind of an obstruction that is preventing you to move on and find the good things about the position you are in. I don't know you so I obviously don't have a clue what kind of situation you are in, but I truly hope there is someone there for you who can make you smile and encourage you to be a little more optimistic.

reply from: kentuckyjoe

Back to the origional question. What about the soul of a baby that died of a miscarriage? As I understand it, miscarriages are extremely common.
Obviously, these souls are without sin. If Christ died for our sins, how could he possibly deny heaven to these souls who are without sin?

reply from: lukesmom

"Immoral" has to do with what is "right and wrong". Is this not about "right and wrong"?
It's sorta hard to get a handle on what you mean by "judgmental". Is this what you mean?
Main Entry:
judg·men·tal Function: adjective
1 : of, relating to, or involving judgment 2 : characterized by a tendency to judge harshly <judgmental prigs>
No, I am talking about judging in the verb sense:
transitive verb
1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises
5: to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about <shouldn't judge him because of his accent>
My use in a sentance: I am feeling judged by someone who has no understanding of my religion or beliefs. I am feeling that this person is is using God's name to judge or condemn what she does not, herself, understand. I am also feeling that she has appointed herself in place of God by judging or condemning what she has no understanding of.
So I guess my definition would be to form a negative opinion without factual knowledge and using that negative opinion to discriminate.
How's that? I'm not good at this so be kind. Sometimes it is hard to put feelings into words.

reply from: abc123

Kentuckyjoe.....
A miscarried baby is no different than an aborted baby (other than it is naturally extracted in contrast to be ripped out of the mothers womb) and will not be denied eternity in God's kingdom.

reply from: Faramir

My "guess" is that they won't be denied Heaven, but that they will have a choice to reject it.

reply from: lukesmom

Who said he would? The only other possibility with Catholics is purgatory. We beleive everyone concieved (and that is everyone ) is born with original sin which is washed away in baptism. Anyone can baptise anyone in an emergancy situation such as miscarriage. Those who are not baptised go to Purgatory to prepare for heaven by learning more about God and Jesus. Now God is merciful so He can certainly bring anyone He wants to Heaven. He is the only judge of who will go to Heaven, Purgatory or Hell. I know my son is in heaven. I think and hope to join him there if I died now. Does that answer your question?

reply from: lukesmom

Praying to the dead is not biblical; man is appointed to die once then comes judgement. Their are no indulgences that can be made on earth for the dead nor are your prayers heard by the dead. You are basically bypassing the mediums and 'trying' to call up the dead yourself.
"And the person who turns after mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people." (Leviticus 20:6)
You only have one change at salvation and that can only happen BEFORE you die on this earth.
Why do Catholics feel the need for the dead to intercede? Isn't it enough to have God the Son interceding for us? Does the Creator of the Universe need the help of mortal men and women to persuade the Father on our behalf?
What a degrading attitude towards Jesus Christ. The Catholic position insults the Lord by portraying Him as an incapable, powerless bystander who needs the help of anyone He can grab to persuade the Father. This is not the picture of Jesus presented in the Bible. Jesus declared of Himself:
"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:18
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9
So what will you do....will you continue to follow the tradition of man or will you conform yourself to the Word of God?
You forget that the dead in the Lord are NOT DEAD but very much alive in Him. They are only dead on earth in their earthly body. So our prayers are to living saints not dead people. Don't you ask living people to pray? Catholics believe in the power of prayer from living people and LIVING saints in heaven.
Don't you beleive that God's children never die but continue to live in Him?

reply from: abc123

My "guess" is that they won't be denied Heaven, but that they will have a choice to reject it.
Why are you following a religion that you have to "guess" on the most important decision you will make in your entire life when you can "know" you will reign with the King forever!

reply from: lukesmom

Lukesmom,
Yes Mary was the vessel that brought the Savior Jesus into this world but Mary was human just like you and me. Mary was not without sin; if she was she would not have needed a Savior.
Luke 1:46-47 - And Mary said:"My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary does not intercede for us to Jesus....Jesus is the mediator for man to God and that is all that is needed.
I urge you to search for the truth in the Bible, I saw you stated you really don't read God's word very often in another post. Start to read it and some of the contradictions you are being taught in your Church will be shown to you.
Trust in God and not man.
God Bless
I respect your religion and beliefs and I expect the same respect toward me and my religion. I am sensing a lack of knowledge on your part and hostility toward Catholisism. Please open yourself to learning the truth about the Catholic religion and not assuming you know. Forgot to add, God chose Mary out of all the millions of women on earth, I trust His judgment as much as I trust in Him.
Thank you,
Sue, Luke's mom

reply from: lukesmom

My "guess" is that they won't be denied Heaven, but that they will have a choice to reject it.
Why are you following a religion that you have to "guess" on the most important decision you will make in your entire life when you can "know" you will reign with the King forever!
You can "decide" to go to heaven but only God can "decide" who actually is worthy of heaven. Don't become complacent.

reply from: Faramir

You've said some great things in this thread.
I think I underestimated you because of your defect of being a "cradle Catholic." (In reality, I wish I had been one as well).

reply from: Jameberlin

Lukesmom,
Yes Mary was the vessel that brought the Savior Jesus into this world but Mary was human just like you and me. Mary was not without sin; if she was she would not have needed a Savior.
Luke 1:46-47 - And Mary said:"My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary does not intercede for us to Jesus....Jesus is the mediator for man to God and that is all that is needed.
I urge you to search for the truth in the Bible, I saw you stated you really don't read God's word very often in another post. Start to read it and some of the contradictions you are being taught in your Church will be shown to you.
Trust in God and not man.
God Bless
Mary was conceived without sin, meaning she lacked the original sin that we all carry on our souls because of the sin of Adam. When Mary was conceived, she was without sin. She is the only human to be conceived this way, thus the only appropriate vessel to carry Christ. The original tabernacle, so to speak. She is in no way divine, or without human traits, but was conceived without sin. Catholics don't claim for Mary to be the mediator between God and man, this is a falsehood believed by many anti-Catholics, and it's not true. She is simply the Blessed Virgin Mother of God.
I don't believe any mortal with sin on their souls would be able to carry Christ in their body, Christ could not reside in a body that was willing to sin. In as much as only the most high priests of Israel were able to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple without retribution from God (and that housed only the commandments!!), only the most special and pure human would ever be able to carry Christ (God) within their body.
This is why Catholics must be without sin to receive the Eucharist, we must also fast beforehand, so that there is nothing else in our bellies before we receive the Lord.
This is not a joke to us, this is not something taken lightly, it is not something that is believed without thought, it is not blind following.

reply from: lukesmom

LOL! One thing I think many people forget, it isn't a specific religion that gets you to heaven, it is instead faith, faith in someone (God) you can't see, touch, smell, taste with human senses. Faith to accept God's Will with a child's trust in Him in good times and more importantly in bad times. Faith that He loves us regardless of our human failings. Faith is built in learning about God and His son AND in life's challanges. Sometimes people forget they aren't in charge, He is.

reply from: lukesmom

Lukesmom,
Yes Mary was the vessel that brought the Savior Jesus into this world but Mary was human just like you and me. Mary was not without sin; if she was she would not have needed a Savior.
Luke 1:46-47 - And Mary said:"My soul exalts the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary does not intercede for us to Jesus....Jesus is the mediator for man to God and that is all that is needed.
I urge you to search for the truth in the Bible, I saw you stated you really don't read God's word very often in another post. Start to read it and some of the contradictions you are being taught in your Church will be shown to you.
Trust in God and not man.
God Bless
Mary was conceived without sin, meaning she lacked the original sin that we all carry on our souls because of the sin of Adam. When Mary was conceived, she was without sin. She is the only human to be conceived this way, thus the only appropriate vessel to carry Christ. The original tabernacle, so to speak. She is in no way divine, or without human traits, but was conceived without sin. Catholics don't claim for Mary to be the mediator between God and man, this is a falsehood believed by many anti-Catholics, and it's not true. She is simply the Blessed Virgin Mother of God.
I don't believe any mortal with sin on their souls would be able to carry Christ in their body, Christ could not reside in a body that was willing to sin. In as much as only the most high priests of Israel were able to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple without retribution from God (and that housed only the commandments!!), only the most special and pure human would ever be able to carry Christ (God) within their body.
This is why Catholics must be without sin to receive the Eucharist, we must also fast beforehand, so that there is nothing else in our bellies before we receive the Lord.
This is not a joke to us, this is not something taken lightly, it is not something that is believed without thought, it is not blind following.
And in that don't forget that God sent His son, Jesus, in human form with human thoughts, desires and failings, same as us, same as Mary.

reply from: Faramir

Did you even read my post or its context?
The "guess" was not about me but about the souls of those who perish before being baptized.
I don't know with any certainty what their fate is, though I have hope they have a means to make it to Heaven.
Agan, my "guess" is that THEY will have every opportunity to make it to Heaven, but I also "guess" that it will not be forced on them and if they don't want to be with God and would prefer Hell, that they will be able to choose that, as did Satan and his followers. But this is all just my own personal speculation.
I have already looked at every anti-Catholic argument. I believed all kinds of bad things about Catholicism at one time, but once I gave it a fair chance and researched it, I was able see that the arguments against it were without merit, and I ended up being a Catholic myself, in spite of the fact that about 2 years before that I would not have believed it would be possible.
I appreciate your concern, but I don't need to be saved from my faith. I believe you have som serious errors in your thinking, but I believe you believe as you do in good faith, and will not attack your religious beliefs, and would appreciate the same consideration.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

What about the concept of ensoulment? Is is possible that miscarried and aborted humans have not yet been had a soul put into their bodies by God? I am aware that, at one time, ensoulment was not considered until a number of weeks after conception (the time differing, amazingly enough, on whether the fetus was male or female). Has this changed over the years? Could God wait until He knows that the child will be born to give it a soul?
Just some thoughts.

reply from: yoda

That's a favorite topic of proaborts who want to say "It's all right to kill it before it gets a soul".
It's all speculation, nothing solid enough to even have an intelligent discussion about.

reply from: Faramir

But if we really didn't know, we should err on the side of life.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

We are commanded to be perfect, come to perfection, reach full maturity, until one does so, he or she will not be receiving an incorruptible body and eternal life.
Genesis 2:7 says KJV: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
In Genesis 2:7 the NASB says man became a "living being" and ESV says man became a "living creature".
I believe soul includes the complete living package of mind composed of spirit and body composed of matter.
When a soul dies the dust returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God. It is written that man can kill the body but cannot destroy the spirit, God can destroy both body and spirit.
Whether cursed or blessed, wicked or righteous, the spirit of all return to God at death. The spirits of the saints await the first resurrection to an incorruptible spirit composed body (composed of energy that doesn't break down or decay). The spirits of those such as Korah, Cain and Balaam are reserved for eternal judgment; their future is the blackest darkness according to Jude. The majority of the spirits, both those who have been good or bad, await the second resurrection to a physical body that can be subject to the second death. They will have an opportunity to reach perfection and receive eternal life. They may instead practice behavior that results in eternal death.
What you become decides whether you receive eternal life or death. Become a useful vessel and you shall live, turn out an evil pot and God shall shatter you to pieces and throw you in the trash.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

We are commanded to be perfect, come to perfection, reach full maturity, until one does so, he or she will not be receiving an incorruptible body and eternal life.
Genesis 2:7 says KJV: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
In Genesis 2:7 the NASB says man became a "living being" and ESV says man became a "living creature".
I believe soul includes the complete living package of mind composed of spirit and body composed of matter.
When a soul dies the dust returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God. It is written that man can kill the body but cannot destroy the spirit, God can destroy both body and spirit.
Whether cursed or blessed, wicked or righteous, the spirit of all return to God at death. The spirits of the saints await the first resurrection to an incorruptible spirit composed body (composed of energy that doesn't break down or decay). The spirits of those such as Korah, Cain and Balaam are reserved for eternal judgment; their future is the blackest darkness according to Jude. The majority of the spirits, both those who have been good or bad, await the second resurrection to a physical body that can be subject to the second death. They will have an opportunity to reach perfection and receive eternal life. They may instead practice behavior that results in eternal death.
What you become decides whether you receive eternal life or death. Become a useful vessel and you shall live, turn out an evil pot and God shall shatter you to pieces and throw you in the trash.
Again, all are denied entry into heaven, only Jesus has been allowed in.
Babies are not given a position in the Kingdom of God and are denied entry.
After the shock of the preceding two statements to your system, see above for further elaboration.

reply from: lukesmom

GL4us- is the above belief taught by a specific religion or your interpetation? Just curious.
When you talk about souls going to God, do you mean the same as going to heaven and only Jesus has a bodily form in heaven? I am just wondering if our interpetations are the same but worded differently.
God bless, Sue, Luke's mom

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I believe my beliefs and those of the United Church of God's are nearly the same; on 99% of major doctrine. Following is a link to the United Church of God.
http://www.ucg.org
The United Church of God has approximately 14,000 members and is an offspring of the Worldwide Church of God which had a congregation membership of 140,000 and Plain Truth Magazine readership of 6 million under Herbert W. Armstrong. After Mr. Armstrong's death in 1986 at the age of 94 new leadership moved the Worldwide Church of God away from the belief that we are called to rule, Government and Law to a traditional Protestant worship. The Worldwide Church of God may now be defunct or it exists with very low membership.
The Church of God groups and Seventh Day Adventists split apart 100 years ago. The 7th Day Adventist group is radically different from the Church of God groups. 7th Dayers are much more closely in alignment with Protestant beliefs than 7th Day Church of God affiliations. The 7th Day Church of God was the first split from the Seventh Day Adventists and still exists. The Worldwide Church of God was a split from the 7th Day Church of God.
As for our spirit returning to God; without a body, our spirit cannot hear, feel, see or think. Until the resurrection, the spirit could be compared to being in a sleep or unconscious.

reply from: lukesmom

Thank you GL, very interesting. I had never heard of the United Church of God until now. The site looks interesting, I gave it a quick look and may look a litter closer another time as gotta get kids headed to bed now.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't recall ever hearing that purgatory doesn't exist, but i have heard that we're not required to believe in limbo, where they used to say all the unbaptized babies go.
Oh, yeah, that's right. I thought purgatory and limbo were the same thing?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

What exactly are you? What post were you responding to?
Mostly GodsLaw4You2Live.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Heaven or Hell whichever God ordaines, which, I believe other religions beleive also. Why would Catholics be any different in this? Remember Catholasism was the first christian religion so we are not that different from other christian religions.
But I was told by one of them that souls don't go to Heaven right now and the only person in heaven right now is Jesus...
who said that?!
GodsLaw4Us2Live said it, several times. Here, a montage:
Dream on. Live in La La land if you want. A wonderful dreamland of love, hugs and kisses. Better start here in the real world making things right. What you see is what you get. The babies are dead. The moms turned them into a pile of sh*t; and that is real. The babies aren't anywhere smiling, cooing, giigling and having a good old time. Get real.
[...]
Heaven is where Jesus now as and is where our reward/positions/crowns are now reserved for us; something we shall be given when he returns.
The Bible says no man has ascended to heaven except for the one who came down from heaven; Jesus.
All who die go to hell (hole in the ground, grave, pit); nobody goes to heaven.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Ask GodsLaw4Us2Live....

reply from: Jameberlin

Yup!! XD
GL isn't Catholic. Don't listen to him, he has no idea what Catholics believe in.

reply from: abc123

Well said.
Following Christ isn't a religion He is our only path to salvation; Jesus laid down His life for all; the ultimate sacrifice for His people. Believe His word.
(For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart)
Straight from the Bible:
Romans 10:9-11 - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Acts 2:21- 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Hebrews 9:27-28 - And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
John 3:15-17 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 11:25-26a - Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
John 20:31 - but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

He does seem REALLY confused.

reply from: kentuckyjoe

abc123, how do you account for:
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Faher in heaven."
Just "believing" requires nothing of us. We can all believe anything and everything it is possible to believe. As I understand it, Christ says He knows what we really believe by what we do.
What is your understanding of this?

reply from: abc123

KJoe...
Believing in Jesus means putting your faith in Jesus. To put your faith in Jesus is to trust and obey His word in practice by doing the will of the Father.
The anatomy of redemption is: truth > faith > obedience = blessings
You are right even the devil "believes" in Jesus, but the devil will never put his trust in the Lordship of Jesus Christ and be saved. (The devil is not capable of this; Jesus did not die for angels but man-Hebrews 2:16)
John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Looking at the passage above says that if you believe in the Son you have eternal life, but the next sentence states if you do not obey the Son you will not see life but the wrath of God. They seem to contradict each other; so to believe one must put their faith in Christ and obey.
John 14:23-24 - Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I believe my beliefs and those of the United Church of God's are nearly the same; on 99% of major doctrine. Following is a link to the United Church of God.
http://www.ucg.org
The United Church of God has approximately 14,000 members and is an offspring of the Worldwide Church of God which had a congregation membership of 140,000 and Plain Truth Magazine readership of 6 million under Herbert W. Armstrong. After Mr. Armstrong's death in 1986 at the age of 94 new leadership moved the Worldwide Church of God away from the belief that we are called to rule, Government and Law to a traditional Protestant worship. The Worldwide Church of God may now be defunct or it exists with very low membership.
The Church of God groups and Seventh Day Adventists split apart 100 years ago. The 7th Day Adventist group is radically different from the Church of God groups. 7th Dayers are much more closely in alignment with Protestant beliefs than 7th Day Church of God affiliations. The 7th Day Church of God was the first split from the Seventh Day Adventists and still exists. The Worldwide Church of God was a split from the 7th Day Church of God.
As for our spirit returning to God; without a body, our spirit cannot hear, feel, see or think. Until the resurrection, the spirit could be compared to being in a sleep or unconscious.
Please note that this is not the same group as the Church of God in North America, which is a traditional, evangelical, fundamentalist church that is just a little less conservative than Mennonites and the Brethren churches. Nor is it the same as the Church of God in Christ, which is related to the Pentacostal faiths.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

That's a favorite topic of proaborts who want to say "It's all right to kill it before it gets a soul".
It's all speculation, nothing solid enough to even have an intelligent discussion about.
I asked this question in all seriousness. Yoda, ALL religions have elements of mere speculation, do they not? And I believe that ensoulment, having been QUITE important at one time in the past, is a valid subject for discussion. I am basically asking if various religions, especially Catholicism, still hold beliefs on ensoulment.
You disappoint me with your rude speculation when I ask a serious question. Could you get over the attitude long enough to give me a serious answer?
Thank you!

reply from: RiverMoonLady

But if we really didn't know, we should err on the side of life.
That's a great answer, and much better than Yoda's impolite brushoff and insult. Thank you for your wisdom.

reply from: yoda

Forgive me for being blunt, but I've been here a thousand times before with other proaborts, and it ALWAYS ends up at the same place..... "They don't have souls before (X number of weeks) so it's okay to kill them."
Not nearly as much as you disappoint me with your use of speculation about ensoulment on an abortion forum.
Now, tell me in all seriousness that you were not going to say that it is okay to kill babies BEFORE they go through "ensoulment". Can you honestly say that?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

No, I am not going to say that. I was asking a theological question because many of the posters here are very well educated in Biblical matters. My religion does not, and to the best of my knowledge, has never had a position on ensoulment. We also do not practice infant baptism (we are Anabaptists) and I am sure, in my own mind, that the soul enters the body at conception.
Do you have a problem with people asking serious questions?
And by the way, I am NOT pro-abortion. I think it is an ugly answer to unwanted pregnancies and I would NEVER advise ANY woman to have an abortion, but I do believe that each woman has her own beliefs and that her actions are between her and her God - or lack of a God.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I am also sure that any aborted or miscarried babies are without sin and go to Heaven where they will meet again with their parents and siblings. Children who are too young to understand the concept of salvation (or not even born) would not be sent to Hell by the God in whom I believe. They would go directly to the arms of Jesus and his holy Father.

reply from: faithman

SSSSSOOOOOO we should kill as many kids as we can before they are indanger of loosing their chance for heaven.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

SSSSSOOOOOO we should kill as many kids as we can before they are indanger of loosing their chance for heaven.
That's YOUR opinion, not mine. I would prefer that the children be raised properly and taught the Bible so that they can, when they are ready for the lifetime commitment, accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and be baptized.

reply from: faithman

SSSSSOOOOOO we should kill as many kids as we can before they are indanger of loosing their chance for heaven.
That's YOUR opinion, not mine. I would prefer that the children be raised properly and taught the Bible so that they can, when they are ready for the lifetime commitment, accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and be baptized.
....and what paRT OF THAT BIBLE SAY THAT ABORTION IS ok? That bible also makes mention of false christians in many places. Those who advocate the destruction of the pre-born image of christ are false bretheren for sure.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

He does seem REALLY confused.
Maybe you haven't been hearing. My beliefs are completely, totally different than traditional Christianity. I totally disagree with Catholism and Protestantism; I believe they are wrong on almost everything.
No, I can't accept the traditional versions and beliefs. Actually, I refer to Catholism and Protestantism as confusion; I believe they are the confused ones, not myself.
I think "outside the box", I've started at square one, I threw everything Catholics and Protestants believe in the wastebasket. After study, there may be a few things I can retrieve as useful from Catholism and Protestantism. My interpretation of Catholism and Protestantism comes from Revelation 17, where the Catholic religion is referred to as the unfaithful whore and her children (Protestant Churches) are also referred to as whores. Protestant churches have received their main doctrines, beliefs and practices from Catholism; which they continue to follow. For money and influence, they've compromised with man's governments or simply tell the congregants what they want to hear.

reply from: yoda

When they appear to have no other purpose than to justify abortion, I do tend to become offended. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no mention of "ensoulment" in any scriptures, so that any opinion given would not be based on religion, but rather be mere baseless speculation. And I don't think that serves any useful purpose here.
I'm soooo glad to hear that! I will hold you to that!
So, you do NOT favor keeping elective abortion legal and available? (This is one question that can be answered "yes" or "no".)
How then, do you distinguish between those actions which should be regulated by criminal laws, and those which should be "between her and her God - or lack of a God"?
Is there some threshold of pain that must be crossed, or what?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

It's funny that things that kill BORN people, such as smoking, drinking, drugs, etc. are allowed (and regulated) but abortion is such an emotional issue even though it does not affect anyone but the parents.
Is your life in danger from a woman who has an abortion?
Is the life of your loved ones in danger?
WHO exactly is in danger, other than the aborted fetus, which the mother obviously does not want?
How can you care SO MUCH about a "person" who is so undeveloped that its brain doesn't even begin to function until far into the pregnancy, and then only in reflexive, unconscious ways?
I have no problem with legal abortion, as long as it is regulated well and not allowed past 20 weeks, except in serious medical situations. The fetus knows nothing, feels nothing, thinks nothing, does nothing. It simply exists.
If someone is never born, what does it matter? If your parents had conceived you and your mother suffered a miscarriage, would it matter? You certainly would not have been able to know that your were dying. Only your parents - especially your mother - would have suffered.
We have so many born people on this earth who need so much help. Before we even begin to THINK about those unwanted unborn, why don't we assist the people who are already here and suffering? Yes, suffering, as they are born and have working brains, can feel pain, feel hunger.
I am so sorry, but my sympathy will always lie with those already born. I would not attempt to insinuate myself or my beliefs into another person's business.

reply from: yoda

Wow..... so the babies that die in each abortion don't even exist in your mind? Hmmm......
All of us. When we allow the killing of innocent humans to go unchallenged, we put all of society in danger. Besides, not being "wanted" by your mother isn't really a good justification for killing a child, is it? Do you really think that way?
The same way I can care about anyone who is unconscious, asleep, in a coma, or in a substance induces stupor. They are all still human beings, and that's all that really matters to me.
Neither you nor anyone else knows that for a fact. Science has no means to detect feelings or thoughts. However, if you really want to use that as a justification for killing an innocent unborn human being, then by that criteria you could put any of your family members under anesthesia and kill them with a clear conscience, right?
You could just as well ask "If someone never reaches adulthood, what does it matter?" After a new human being is created at fertilization, they ALL MATTER to me.......but obviously not to you.
Why choose one or the other? Why not do both? Can't you handle doing two things at one time? Why try to justify killing unborn babies with the suffering of others? That's like trying to justify the killing of baby seals by citing the starving animals in Africa.... it makes no sense!
Yeah, I understand that. And by saying where "your sympathy will always lie", you are euphemistically saying that you will always support the killing of unborn babies, but you don't want to actually say that.
And you will never respond when I ask you why you "attempt to insinuate yourself or your beliefs into another person's business" by supporting all present criminal laws, will you? You will continue to ignore that question, won't you?

reply from: GratiaPlena

You are indeed confused- the Whore of Babylon in Revelations 17 is pagan Rome 2,000 years ago, not the Catholic Church
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/rev17.html

reply from: lukesmom

Your apology explains a lot. Prolifers don't have to apologise for thier beliefs or stand on abortion.

reply from: galen

what about the child's buisness... when you advocate thier death you force your belife system on them...?

reply from: galen

________________________________________________________
i am Catholic.. and nothing in my education about the Church ever told me that an aborted baby could not go to Heaven, and by turn could not forgive its parents.
i personally belive that if you make it to Heaven the fears and feelings of betrayal, hurts and opressions we faced in this life are already forgiven by the person who experienced them. Heaven is a place of absolute joy and oneness with God, there for all sorrow and grief are not there... they have been figured out before arrival in Heaven. catholics call this period /place purgatory.
i also think that by the time a soul reaches heaven it has grown as much as it needs to in order to reside with God for eternity.
i do not think your questions are childish but ones that all humans wonder about now and again... even adults.


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