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"Pro-Life Butts"

by: yoda

I received a mailing from Dan & Donna Holloman of MTTP (Missionaries to the Pre-Born) and I'd like to share a couple paragraphs with you.

"We are often viciously assaulted by "pro-life Christians" for showing the bloody reality of abortion. On June 26, 2008, at the Fort Madison PP, I was assaulted by Devin Eaves. With the help of lying neighbors and angry Health Dept. workers I was arrested for disorderly conduct.

Devin Eaves had contaced us earlier by e-mail offering to help us so she might learn Donna's picketing schedule. She had spent hours harassing Donna while cozying up to Planned Parenthood supporters. Donna called me to the clinic to get video of her harassment. Devin came over to where I was standing and hit me with her sign, breaking my camera. Devin sells expensive baby dolls on e-bay under the name "Midwest Miracles". Her string of profanity was revealing; she is not anti-abortion as she claims, nor is she a follower of Jesus Christ. She says she is pro-life, but her works contradict her. The naive will take her at her word. The standard for being pro-life is so low that even George Bush qualifies. We often have people complain to us about our activities and signs. They usually begin their complaint by saying "I am pro-life but..." We call them "pro-life butts".
http://missionariestothepre-borniowa.com/index.htm

reply from: sander

Guess the old saying is true, with friends like that, who needs enemies?

reply from: yoda

It looks like the "borties" have got lots of friends in our ranks.

reply from: sander

Sure does.
Say is this Devin woman the one who sells the baby in different stages of developemnt dressed up in doll clothes? (I hate to even ask that)

reply from: 4given

Sadly I think many of us have grown used to the pro-life buts..It always disappoints just as much though. Again- is there such a thing as a prolifer that has an exception that leads to the killing of a single baby? Is a pro-life but really a pro-choicer?

reply from: 4given

Unfortunate Dan and Donna! They have been put through enough.. to be attacked by other lifers now too.. God bless them!

reply from: 4given

Unfortunate Dan and Donna! They have been put through enough.. to be attacked by other lifers now too.. God bless them!
Double post! Apparently my 2 y.o agrees with me.. so he had to post it again..

reply from: faithman

The really sad thing is when you identify them, you get called a "hater". Hater is the new Nazi, if you get called one you are automaticlly wrong about every thing. Somehow "nice" is more important that defending the womb child from evil aggression. The these neo-lifers will tout the glories of an unjust government that sends our best to die for oil, while that same government sanctions the death of thousands of children everyday. Then we have a "pro-lifer" lecture us that we can't call abortion murder because it is legal, and a promise from the same, that they will fight personhood if it means killer mom will meet deserved justice. If that is "pro-life" count me out. Such pretence is deadly to the womb child.

reply from: Faramir

Frome the website:
This fellow is lamenting that the days are over when they could beat the crap out of the homos:
He misunderstands the meaning of hate and is using this misunderstanding as an excuse for his own hatefulness.

reply from: Faramir

These people are beyond extreme.
Of course they should be criticized by normal people and normal prolifers.
Most Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong, but they do not believe that we need to beat the crap out of them.
And most can and should distance themselves from Fred Phelps, unlike the people who run this site.
Where did you dig these guys up yodavater?

reply from: yoda

No. Here's her shop: http://stores.ebay.com/Midwest-Miracles-Nursery

reply from: yoda

Could be a lot worse.... they could call us "friend".

reply from: galen

wow her detail is amazing.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

From the Dan & Donna Holman Website regarding justifiable homicide:
Does acknowledging the justifiable use of force oblige us to kill an abortionist? Most of us are not as courageous as Paul Hill. There are no Christian suicide bombers blowing up abortion clinics. We need to confess and acknowledge our lack of love toward God and the pre-born. It is wrong to vilify the courageous acts of Paul Hill to put our own weakness and cowardice in a better light. As long as there is confusion in doctrine among those who are against abortion, the world will not come to understand our message. "A mist in the pulpit is a fog in the pew." Heretics and heresy must be dealt with openly and harshly.
Basically, Dan has said we are weak cowardly heretics if we don't kill an abortionist, and we need to confess and acknowledge our lack of love toward God (because we don't kill an abortionist we need to confess and acknowledge our "shortcoming" in that area).
Dal Holman is the reason I no longer travel with Missionaries to the Preborn. His statements are wrong, yet MTP still allows him to travel with them. Therefore, they will not see me again.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that sound real nice. Thing is, we don't have any enemies. No one is trying to kill us, it's the babies that are being killed. The borties are the enemies of the babies, not us.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Dan & Donna Holman are extreme and dangerous; at least in word, but actions could follow.

reply from: Faramir

Thanks for this post. I mistakenly thought you were one of those who encouraged violence, and I am relieved you are not.
They also seem to be in favor of beating up homosexuals and they have a fondness for Fred Phelps.
I would like to think maybe Yodavater did not have a chance to look more deeply into what they do, and I hope that his posting of their link is not an endorsement of them and their message.

reply from: yoda

Right on the second part, wrong on the first part. There is nothing in the statement of his that you posted that says what you claim he "basically" said. You really ought to have more confidence in your audience that to think that you have to interpret someone else's words for them. Most people who post here can understand English as well as you can.
Not to mention (well, okay, I am mentioning it) this thread is not about your opinion of Dan Holman, it's about "Pro-Life Butts". Are you thinking he was talking about you, or what?

reply from: Faramir

Right on the second part, wrong on the first part. There is nothing in the statement of his that you posted that says what you claim he "basically" said. You really ought to have more confidence in your audience that to think that you have to interpret someone else's words for them. Most people who post here can understand English as well as you can.
Not to mention (well, okay, I am mentioning it) this thread is not about your opinion of Dan Holman, it's about "Pro-Life Butts". Are you thinking he was talking about you, or what?
And to illustrate the point about butts, he linked to a site where violence against abortion providers and homosexuals is approved.
Not surprising, coming from yodavater. Nothing on this site horrifies me anymore aobut SOME "prolifers."

reply from: yoda

Four score and seven years ago........

reply from: yoda

Our forefather set forth on this continent.........

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Right on the second part, wrong on the first part. There is nothing in the statement of his that you posted that says what you claim he "basically" said. You really ought to have more confidence in your audience that to think that you have to interpret someone else's words for them. Most people who post here can understand English as well as you can.
Not to mention (well, okay, I am mentioning it) this thread is not about your opinion of Dan Holman, it's about "Pro-Life Butts". Are you thinking he was talking about you, or what?
It is of the extreme utmost importance to pay attention to what people are saying, anaylze it, and take it seriously. In Mein Kampf and in his speeches Hilter said what he would do; and he later did it. Words have meaning, messages are intended to relay information. But some just seem to ignore what is being said.
One day or two each year from the late 90s through 2007 I participated with Missionaries to the Preborn, Milwaukee based. I have carefully examined what Dan Holman has said and found it an unacceptable call to violence and lawlessness. Therefore, Missionaries to the Preborn needs to understand that they are permitting a man with Osama bin Laden inclinations to associate with themselves. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by this party.

reply from: carolemarie

Right on the second part, wrong on the first part. There is nothing in the statement of his that you posted that says what you claim he "basically" said. You really ought to have more confidence in your audience that to think that you have to interpret someone else's words for them. Most people who post here can understand English as well as you can.
Not to mention (well, okay, I am mentioning it) this thread is not about your opinion of Dan Holman, it's about "Pro-Life Butts". Are you thinking he was talking about you, or what?
It is of the extreme utmost importance to pay attention to what people are saying, anaylze it, and take it seriously. In Mein Kampf and in his speeches Hilter said what he would do; and he later did it. Words have meaning, messages are intended to relay information. But some just seem to ignore what is being said.
One day or two each year from the late 90s through 2007 I participated with Missionaries to the Preborn, Milwaukee based. I have carefully examined what Dan Holman has said and found it an unacceptable call to violence and lawlessness. Therefore, Missionaries to the Preborn needs to understand that they are permitting a man with Osama bin Laden inclinations to associate with themselves. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by this party.
Matt supports it too. Which is very disappointing.

reply from: yoda

Analyze all you want, just don't add words, don't put words in people's mouths just because you "think" that's what they mean. You are bearing false witness.

reply from: yoda

Got any quotes?
Would ANYONE like to respond to the SUBJECT of this thread, or is this just going to be an all out character assassination on MTTP's leaders?

reply from: faithman

Right on the second part, wrong on the first part. There is nothing in the statement of his that you posted that says what you claim he "basically" said. You really ought to have more confidence in your audience that to think that you have to interpret someone else's words for them. Most people who post here can understand English as well as you can.
Not to mention (well, okay, I am mentioning it) this thread is not about your opinion of Dan Holman, it's about "Pro-Life Butts". Are you thinking he was talking about you, or what?
It is of the extreme utmost importance to pay attention to what people are saying, anaylze it, and take it seriously. In Mein Kampf and in his speeches Hilter said what he would do; and he later did it. Words have meaning, messages are intended to relay information. But some just seem to ignore what is being said.
One day or two each year from the late 90s through 2007 I participated with Missionaries to the Preborn, Milwaukee based. I have carefully examined what Dan Holman has said and found it an unacceptable call to violence and lawlessness. Therefore, Missionaries to the Preborn needs to understand that they are permitting a man with Osama bin Laden inclinations to associate with themselves. This is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by this party.
Matt supports it too. Which is very disappointing.
The only disappointment here is baby killers like you trying to discredit the truth.

reply from: nancyu

How about a pro choice "butt"
http://www.sunjournal.com/story/272577-3/LetterstotheEditor/Womens_rights/

reply from: nancyu

My response (yet to be published)
Rights of Unborn Persons
I could not believe my eyes when I read a letter to the editor by in the July 1 opinion page entitled "Women's Rights." One sentence in the article I hope everyone read twice, as I had to, to be sure that I had read it right..
She said, " I understand why some view abortion as murder, but that doesn't mean it should be banned completely, especially without addressing the problems it alleviates."
I suppose murder does alleviate some problems doesn't it? Some of those murdered are plagues on society. Some of those murdered might otherwise be hungry. Some of those murdered might otherwise be abused, unwanted, unliked, or unattractive.
An unborn child is a person. The scientific, visual, biological evidence of this overwhelming. If anyone would say that personhood of the unborn child is a simple matter of opinion, I would have to argue that their own personhood is a matter of opinion as well.
Abortion is murder of a person; more specifically, of an innocent child. It most certainly should be "banned completely."

reply from: faithman

But this is exactly the atitude of killer carole. She cares more about murderous mommy's feelings than the womb child that gets slaughtered. Scum bag is way to kind a word for these skancs, but that is all they will allow me to get away with on this forum. Dad gone moderator....

reply from: nancyu

But this is exactly the atitude of killer carole. She cares more about murderous mommy's feelings than the womb child that gets slaughtered. Scum bag is way to kind a word for these skancs, but that is all they will allow me to get away with on this forum. Dad gone moderator....
How certain "you-know-who-you-ares" would complete this sentence:
I understand why some view abortion as murder, but....
...that doesn't mean those who have them should be punished!
...that doesn't mean murdering mom's shouldn't get tea and chocolate (everyone needs to eat and drink!)
...that doesn't mean women shouldn't be able to use pills to cause one!
...that doesn't mean we shouldn't be nice to those who have them!
...that doesn't mean we shouldn't make them "safe" for a woman to get one!
...that doesn't mean they aren't necessary sometimes!

reply from: nancyu

This an excerpt from a newsletter from Missionaries to the Pre-Born Aug 07:
You see CM &co., this is the result of your tea and chocolate ways. YOU are promoting violence by insisting on "mollycoddling" murdering moms.
I think the "nicer than Jesus poor-lifers" phrase describes you to a T.

reply from: yoda

Sure, those are to be expected. It's the others that are really surprising.

reply from: yoda

Proaborts seem to think that they've invented a new concept by adding the suffix "hood" to the word "person", as if the meaning of "person" had nothing to do with their new toy..... pathetic.

reply from: yoda

It's the Neville Chamberlin syndrome.... appeasement, appeasement, and more appeasement.....

reply from: Faramir

You see CM &co., this is the result of your tea and chocolate ways. YOU are promoting violence by insisting on "mollycoddling" murdering moms.
I think the "nicer than Jesus poor-lifers" phrase describes you to a T.
And he also misses the good old days when he could beat the crap out of the "Sodomites."
And he is a Fred Phelps fan.
Are you?

reply from: carolemarie

Go read his stuff. He will not deny it. I am stating a fact.
I like Matt and the MTPB, just don't like this part of their stuff, which meant I can't support them anymore. It is too bad.

reply from: carolemarie

You see CM &co., this is the result of your tea and chocolate ways. YOU are promoting violence by insisting on "mollycoddling" murdering moms.
I think the "nicer than Jesus poor-lifers" phrase describes you to a T.
The gift bags are given after the abortion, with the aim to getting women into counseling. Why dont you call them bible containing bags, or bags with post-abortion lit. and help numbers? Those are in the bags as well.
Since an abortion ban can't pass, we are reducing the # of abortions. Let's see, support a ban and let babies die, or pass some laws aimed at reducing abortion and let some babies live.
Do both.
I think the phrase consumed with hate describes you to a T.

reply from: yoda

You made the statement, not me. I really don't care, one way or the other.

reply from: galen

you'd be surprised... look at Chm...

reply from: Faramir

Yes there are some here that are "that stupid." But it's more than stupid. It's that they are just so plain meanspirited the idea of kindess in this sitution is intolerable to them.
But I like what Mother Teresa said-- "I prefer you to make mistakes in kindness than work miracles in unkindness."

reply from: Faramir

You are getting to the point of being harrasive to her. Why do you keep going after her? She didn't make a post here.

reply from: galen

because i enjoy it... especially after she was so mean to others here...
and its true..i'm not saying anything that is not true and i think xena understood what i was saying...
you going to defend her? go right ahead i can not stop you.
but the reverse is also true.

reply from: Faramir

I don't know what the issue you have is with her. I'm not defending her. I just don't get why you're so angry with her, no matter what she says, or even if she doesn't say anything.

reply from: galen

go back and read her posts to me... possibly you'll understand.. then read the ones to other people.
she is just mean...

reply from: Faramir

I have noticed some obnoxiousness at times (not that I'm one criticize it), but I didn't see intentional meanness. Not saying it's not there or that it is--just that I haven't noticed it.

reply from: galen

its more than being obnoxious...she is mean intentionally... or she' s just stupid, but i really don't believe she is stupid.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Faithman has called me a baby killer for posts such as the one above. Yoda has referred to my type as Chamberlain appeasers.
As you know, I find human beings that make their living by killing other human beings despicable. Whether they are ripping off the other person's arms or sucking out their brains, these monsters are the worst of creatures. Such horrible, horrible people who are paid to kill others need to be executed. Away with such vermin.
But firstly, and most importantly, the Bible is about lawful authority. God has put authority in place and we must be subject to it. Eternal life is not possible without living within the framework of proper authority. Only by being subject to the local authorities is one allowed an opportunity for eternal life. Those who rebel against the local authorities rebel against God, and will receive judgment, for the local authorities bear the sword to punish wrongdoers.
You - Paul Hill, Yoda and Faithman are not in authority; you are under authority. The authorities have said killing abortionists is a crime. Paul Hill was a criminal; he has no opportunity to be raised up in the first resurrection to be given a position in the Government of God.
Your promotion of people that celebrate Paul Hill days and denigrating people that are opposed to shooting down people outside of a lawful decreed sentence by governing authorities is horribly irresponsible and an abomination.
Again, the Bible is about Government. Only those who live within the framework of Government will receive eternal life. The Good News (Gospel) is that the better Government, the Government of God, is coming to replace the governments of man.
There is no more important subject than government and being subject to it; it is the only Way peace and eternal life is possible. Otherwise, you have disagreements, conflict, war, fighting and death. Life is not possible if you rebel against the governing authorities.

reply from: galen

Yup
_______________________________

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Faithman has called me a baby killer for posts such as the one above. Yoda has referred to my type as Chamberlain appeasers.
As you know, I find human beings that make their living by killing other human beings despicable. Whether they are ripping off the other person's arms or sucking out their brains, these monsters are the worst of creatures. Such horrible, horrible people who are paid to kill others need to be executed. Away with such vermin.
But firstly, and most importantly, the Bible is about lawful authority. God has put authority in place and we must be subject to it. Eternal life is not possible without living within the framework of proper authority. Only by being subject to the local authorities is one allowed an opportunity for eternal life. Those who rebel against the local authorities rebel against God, and will receive judgment, for the local authorities bear the sword to punish wrongdoers.
You - Paul Hill, Yoda and Faithman are not in authority; you are under authority. The authorities have said killing abortionists is a crime. Paul Hill was a criminal; he has no opportunity to be raised up in the first resurrection to be given a position in the Government of God.
Your promotion of people that celebrate Paul Hill days and denigrating people that are opposed to shooting down people outside of a lawful decreed sentence by governing authorities is horribly irresponsible and an abomination.
Again, the Bible is about Government. Only those who live within the framework of Government will receive eternal life. The Good News (Gospel) is that the better Government, the Government of God, is coming to replace the governments of man.
There is no more important subject than government and being subject to it; it is the only Way peace and eternal life is possible. Otherwise, you have disagreements, conflict, war, fighting and death. Life is not possible if you rebel against the governing authorities.
Again, law and government are among the most important of concepts. Life is not possible without obedience to a lawful governing authority. God's Government is the "Good News" or "Gospel". Man' government is an imperfect forerunner; but, nevertheless, we are commanded to be subject to it; for that is God's Will.

reply from: Faramir

It's just macho posturing on their part.
It's easy to cheer on the violent from their positions of safety. Not much different than the facists who strap bombs to the mentally disturbed, and let them blow themselves up in the name of a cause.

reply from: yoda

No he hasn't. If you thought that was a reference to you, that's your interpretation, not mine.
Does that include those who hid Jews from the Holocaust, thus defying local laws and local authorities?
Neither FMan nor I have claimed any "authority", have we?
And he paid the price, didn't he?
To whom are you speaking here? What posts are you referring to specifically?
So life was not possible for any of the founding fathers? All of them went to hell?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Originally posted by: GodsLaw4Us2Live
There is no more important subject than government and being subject to it; it is the only Way peace and eternal life is possible. Otherwise, you have disagreements, conflict, war, fighting and death. Life is not possible if you rebel against the governing authorities.
Posted by Voda:
So life was not possible for any of the founding fathers? All of them went to hell?
We all go to hell when we die, even Jesus did. Hell is an old English word for a hole in the ground, grave, pit. I believe the founding of America was a corporate movement rather than individuals taking action according to their individual whims. The important thing is that a corporate body supported by the majority of citizens make the governing decisions. I believe steps were taken to form a more perfect union under the auspices of a corporate body that conducted many governmental assemblies.
We all reside in hell (the grave) for a time. The question is whether one shall be part of the first resurrection (those who will be rulers and teachers in the Kingdom of God) or part of the second resurrection (a thousand years thereafter) of the good and bad who will have an opportunity to make important decisions about their behavior (behavior determines whether you live or die). There are a few individuals who previously worked closely with God who later rebelled and have their fate sealed: eternal death (Cain, Korah, Balaam, etc.). Death is the absence of life (no consciousness).

reply from: Faramir

The nutcase violent extremists on the last site yodavater linked to praised Paul Hill and Fred Phelps, as well as the good old days when they could take care of "the sodomites."

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It has occured to me that your citing the founding fathers may be related to how you feel about yourselves. Do Yoda, Faithman, Dan Holman, Paul Hill feel they are true Patriots, fighting in the 1776 fashion against the "oppressive" government that is depriving citizens of life and due process? The creation of a new nation in 1776 supported heavily by the colonies is in no way comparable to the few who struggle with violent means or language condoning of violence against today's ruling government.
When a man lead a massacre at Harper's Ferry in the 1850s as part of a slave revolt, it was a crime, even if he believed slave owners were comparable to horrible abortionists for enslaving men, women and children. Later, when the US government overturned slavery, those actions were legal. Individual bloodletting is illegal. The corporate body must make the decision.

reply from: joe

John the Baptist was also a "criminal". Jesus Christ was also a "criminal".
Self defense and the defense of the innocent is justified by God, that is who we serve.
Paul Hill is innocent in the eyes of God. Your condemnation is in grave error.

reply from: yoda

Then you are engaging in self delusion, rather than reading actual history.
There is no point in continuing any discussion in which one side tries to revise history to suit his/her viewpoint.

reply from: faithman

Then you are engaging in self delusion, rather than reading actual history.
There is no point in continuing any discussion in which one side tries to revise history to suit his/her viewpoint.
Those assemblies were influenced by a few voices that had the courage to speak up against great opposition. They faced the same kind of rhetoric that you continue to throw up inspite of the fact that we have shown our founding documents, church history, and the scriptures do not agree with you at all. Is abortion an agressive evil against defencless womb children? Is it an act made "legal" by a despotic court? Is it a tolerable evil? Salvation is based on Christ alone, not "obediance" to a godless government. If you want to be a Torrie, then go join planned parenthood.

reply from: yoda

And beyond that, an immoral act is not made moral because many people do it at the same time.
There is no such thing as a "corporate shield" from personal responsibility.

reply from: yoda

There is no such thing as a "corporate shield" from personal responsibility.

reply from: churchmouse

galen..........you just cant be in one thread without thinkin of me can ya? You are so full of yourself its sickening.
I am the one......that thinks what carole did was fine. You must have had a brain freeze over that one. Your extrme hatred is showing.
You are one OBSESSED WOMAN THAT IS FOR SURE.
And I agree with you faramir when you said,
Meanspirited is not the word. For someone to kindly give a bible to someone that just walked out of an abortion mill.....that act in no way condones what they did. They use the tea and chocolate as a cover for how they really feel.
faramir you are absolutely right when you said this, and I thank you. I knew people were starting to notice her stalking nature. I have gotten a few messages about it.
She does it everywhere and so does vexing. I have asked them to stop that I will not fight or engage in this anymore. But they will NOT LET UP.
She says she enjoys being mean . Well no kidding. She not only is mean, she has a dirty mouth. I have not threated nor called anyone names here, and she cant prove it so she lies. I have asked her time and time again to post ANYTHING.......names, profanity, anything...but she cant.
Why don't you provide her with some examples galen, make it easy? In fact honey why dont you start a thread and call it.........THE MEAN THINGS CHURCHMOUSE SAYS. Then you can add to it daily. Fill it full of the profane things I have said. Also post the vulgarities and the threats.....
You wont find......one because I dont call names and I do use profanity. But I do use scripture and that just eats away at you doesnt it? Put up galen or shut up this is getting ridiculous.
Youre so obsessed with me you cant control yourself anymore, that much honey is obvious.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

John the Baptist was also a "criminal". Jesus Christ was also a "criminal".
Self defense and the defense of the innocent is justified by God, that is who we serve.
Paul Hill is innocent in the eyes of God. Your condemnation is in grave error.
Paul Hill actually killed someone and really was a criminal. Jesus and John the Baptist were falsely accused and executed without having committed a crime. John the Baptist was beheaded for telling King Herod that it was unlawful for him to have his brother Phillip's wife. Jesus trial was held in the wee hours of the morning and the testimony of false witnesses was sought.
Muslims think they are serving God also; but true Muslims are really murders who believe that killing others (non-believers) pleases Allah (Satan).
The way to please God is to live cooperatively with your neighbors; that is why God instituted government; it's His will.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Eloquently stated; and very accurate may I add.

reply from: Faramir

Eloquently stated; and very accurate may I add.
Has no one seen their page about the "good old days" when they "took care of the sodomites themselves"?
These people advocate violence and applaud it.
Prolifers should run from them.
They are not prolife. They are extremists using prolife as a front to advocate hatred and violence.

reply from: carolemarie

It is sad that some people have mixed up hating sin with hating people.

reply from: Teresa18

Back to the pro-life butts, I have heard that phrase more times than I can count.
I'm personally opposed to abortion, but who am I to impose my morality on others.
I believe abortion is wrong, but I can't dictate that another woman can't have an abortion.
Abortion is a sad, tragic thing, but it must be available.
I'm pro-life, but I support abortion in the case of rape or incest.
I'm pro-life, but I think abortion is ok through the first trimester.
Etc., etc

reply from: yoda

Thanks, Teresa. It's encouraging to see that at least one poster is willing to discuss the topic of this thread, rather than engaging in an off topic feeding frenzy type attack on a prolifer. Will wonders never cease?
The prolife "butts" are all around us. They populate this forum like a plague of locusts. If enough "butts" are thrown in, what someone claims to be a prolife outlook becomes proabort. And that's what the topic of this thread is supposed to be.

reply from: Faramir

You don't need to support this position with an organization that loves and rationalizes violence.
Prolifers don't need "friends" like that.

reply from: yoda

4 score and 7 years ago..........

reply from: joe

Show me a scripture that condemns defending yourself or someone you love from aggression. You accused Paul Hill of being a criminal...prove it.
Now if you use the laws of man to prove your point, you also condemn:
Jesus Christ who was found guilty according to man, guilty of capital punishment.
Fathers who defended families during the Jewish Holocaust against soldiers following the law, according to man.
The resurrection of Jesus Christ proves your theory to be false. God will save his followers contrary to what men or the government believes.
The Laws of God are his will, not the laws of man. When they violate Gods Law they become illegal.
You need to change your screen name from GodsLaw4Us2Live to MansLaw4Us2Live since you do not truly believe in Gods Law.

reply from: joe

What is truly sad is when you hate the unborn and love the killer.

reply from: joe

Eloquently stated; and very accurate may I add.
You both must be pacifist to the fullest extent of the word...hypocrites.

reply from: joe

Demons do praise "Christians" who worship Satan.

reply from: faithman

What is truly sad is when you hate the unborn and love the killer.
Just like you hating 3 womb children to death. And just like your continued hate towards the womb child by denying their personhood for personal aggenda. That is the real hate crime here.

reply from: ProInformed

Unfortunately some pro-lifers are extremists, RARE but true.
Much more proliferous are the pro-lifers who care more about being seen as moderate, who worry more about choicists chanting 'fanatic' at them then about saving women and babies.
Ironically, it is the fear of being grouped with the rare fanatics that effectively renders the 'pro-life-but' crowd to a cowardly, quivering, choicist-approval-seeking, ineffective joke...
I'd like to think that most 'moderates', whether they call themselves 'pro-choice' or 'pro-life-but', can be motivated to oppose abortion once they learn enough to counter the popular myths about abortion supposedly only being: done on a 'blob of tissue', pro-woman, a prevention of child abuse, 'safe', blah-blah-blah...
But while I have seen people become pro-life, both online and IRL, when they become better educated, for many choicists and 'pro-life-but' folks, education about reality doesn't trump their concern about appearances.
Of course the abortion industry and the chanting choicists who support it are well aware of how those sorts are way more concerned about being popular than they are about the lives and safety of either women or babies. That's why they make fun of pro-lifers, becuase it is such an effective way to get most moderates to shuch up and let the abortion industry do whatever it wants, however it wants (which is of course kill as many babies as possible, and some women now and then too, so they can make big bucks).

reply from: joe

All pro-choice advocates are extremists. There is no moderation in advocating the death of innocent human lives.

reply from: nancyu

I think you hit a nail on the head here (as you often do) Proinformed.

reply from: yoda

And a sad, sad joke at that. You're right, some prolifers are so easily intimidated by the choicers that they will bend over backwards and do back flips to keep from being "lumped in" with the very rare violent prolifers. One well known activist even volunteered to "flip the switch" and execute a prolifer who was facing execution. Another has a standing cash reward for anyone who turns in a prolifer they suspect of being violent. How "prolife" is that?

reply from: Faramir

And a sad, sad joke at that. You're right, some prolifers are so easily intimidated by the choicers that they will bend over backwards and do back flips to keep from being "lumped in" with the very rare violent prolifers. One well known activist even volunteered to "flip the switch" and execute a prolifer who was facing execution. Another has a standing cash reward for anyone who turns in a prolifer they suspect of being violent. How "prolife" is that?
I think Fr. Pavone is about as prolife as you can get, and the reward is consistent with his prolife position.
There is nothing wrong with legitimate prolifers distancing themselves from the violent and from the lunatics.
That is not bending over backwards to please prochoicers. Showing displeasure with the extremists who abuse the prolife cause to serve an agenda of hate is just plain common sens. The prolife nutters do more to harm then help the prolife cause.

reply from: joe

You are obviously full of hate, approving the use of force against terrorists. How dare you Faramir agree on killing human beings to protect our country.
You are a hater and a bigot, who chooses who gets to die....HYPOCRITE, you are not pro-life.
Why do you hate the terrorists so much??? Why do you have such a hateful agenda...violent lunatic.

reply from: carolemarie

And a sad, sad joke at that. You're right, some prolifers are so easily intimidated by the choicers that they will bend over backwards and do back flips to keep from being "lumped in" with the very rare violent prolifers. One well known activist even volunteered to "flip the switch" and execute a prolifer who was facing execution. Another has a standing cash reward for anyone who turns in a prolifer they suspect of being violent. How "prolife" is that?
Calling Paul Hill prolife doesn't make him so Yoda. He killed 2 people because he was against killing! That is insane and good for Father Pavone for a fund to stop these crazy people, and while I wouldn't condone the death penelty, the point was mad by Flips rhetoric that killing abortion providers is wrong and evil. It doesn't make you a hero. Paul Hill became prodeath when he shot and killed that abortion provider and his escort.

reply from: joe

Paul Hill was a Hero to the unborn that day...calling him pro-death does not make it so.
Who does CM call to protect her life? Answer: The police who would use force if necessary to protect her.
I cannot believe you are pro-death CM. You are full of hate.....

reply from: churchmouse

So you think teresa that two wrongs make a right? It's ok to kill an innocent unborn child because an act of violence that unfortunately happens to the mother?
If you went into a hospital nursery full of newborns.....do you think that you could pick out the baby whose mother had been raped? You know the child you thought had no right to live?
Joe, Christ said, love your enemy. He loved those that killed Him. He said "Father forgive them,"
Carole is doing exactly what she is commanded to do. Christ does not leave this one up to us to decide what to do.......He COMMANDS US TO LOVE OUR ENEMY. Not only is she doing that she is also spreading the gospel by giving the women Bibles.
He went against everything Christ stood for when he did it. It said he flet no remorse for his actions, and that he would be rewarded in heaven. Well God will judge him there is no doubt about that. But he will also have to answer God when He asks him why he killed his escort and also wounded his wife.
I wonder what he will say to those charges?
Paul might have been a hero but the minute he killed Hill and his escort.......he became a murderer.

reply from: joe

I agree, forgive our enemy but show me scripture that says we cannot defend ourselves or our loved ones from harm.
I profess to be a Christian and obey the Laws of God. Show me a Law from God that prohibits us to defend ourselves or our families.
If you call the police to defend your loved ones, how is that not condoning force to defend the innocent? How is that different than what Paul Hill did? This is not about condoning violence, this is about truth and your false condemnation of Paul Hill.
Man cannot be above God, I do not care about what men say...show me what God says.

reply from: carolemarie

Paul Hill was a Hero to the unborn that day...calling him pro-death does not make it so.
Who does CM call to protect her life? Answer: The police who would use force if necessary to protect her.
I cannot believe you are pro-death CM. You are full of hate.....
He was just a murderer that day. He violated everything he ever stood for when he gunned down two innocent people. Did Hill forget that Jesus said let he who is without sin throw the first stone? No, he just decided that his (Hill's) moral outrage was more important than what His God said.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

For people who say all pro-choicers are extremists, that's as inaccurate as pro-choicers who think all pro-lifers are the extremists who bomb clinics.

reply from: joe

God said? Carole, show me scripture that tells me we cannot defend our families from aggressors.
The lady that Jesus saved was not about to kill someone, there was no need to stone her. I appreciate your efforts in the pro-life movement but I will honor the memory of Paul Hill until the teachings of God prove that self-defense or the defense of the innocent is immoral.
Show me scripture that self defense is immoral.

reply from: joe

Who kills 4000 innocent human lives every day and calls it choice?

reply from: carolemarie

There was no "family of Paul Hill being killed. He wasn't defending his family or his own life.

reply from: 4given

So you think teresa that two wrongs make a right? It's ok to kill an innocent unborn child because an act of violence that unfortunately happens to the mother?
Let me help you with this one as well (You misquoted Lukesmom, ashmarie88 and also Teresa)
Did you notice the threads tiltle? Did you read the posts? Theresa is responding to a thread entitled "pro-life butts" and giving her own experiences with the exceptions she heard.

reply from: joe

To Paul Hill he took those unborn as his own children, so the question remains.
Where is the scripture condemning self defense or the defense of the innocent?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No. Here's her shop: http://stores.ebay.com/Midwest-Miracles-Nursery
What is her shop all about? Just making dolls of your baby from baby photos, or is this some kind of abortion/miscarriage coping thing? Sorry; I don't know if you're in approval of this lady's work or not.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Who kills 4000 innocent human lives every day and calls it choice?
Millions of women around the world. It is a choice. That doesn't make it a good choice, a nice choice, or an ethical choice. Everything we do in life is a choice. Choices have consequences.

reply from: 4given

No. Here's her shop: http://stores.ebay.com/Midwest-Miracles-Nursery
What is her shop all about? Just making dolls of your baby from baby photos, or is this some kind of abortion/miscarriage coping thing? Sorry; I don't know if you're in approval of this lady's work or not.
I am actually confused as well. Does she make dolls that resemble what aborted children may have looked like, did look like.. or based on photographs of stillborns? Why are they called "reborn"?

reply from: carolemarie

Dude--please! To Paul Hill he took those unborn as his own children, so the question remains.
Sorry--Family doesn't include people you choose to call family who you never met and don't know.
And Hill's life wasn't at risk either.
Defense of family and self don't apply to this.

reply from: joe

It is not a choice....It is murder. Extremists.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

It is not a choice....It is murder. Extremists.
If I murdered you today, it would be a choice I had made. A very bad choice, certainly, but still a choice. Abortion is a choice. Murder is a choice.

reply from: joe

So it is moral to watch a child die in the street because it is not family? Clearly you cannot prove Paul Hill was guilty according to God.
Asking once again:
Show me scripture where the defense of the innocent is not allowed.

reply from: joe

If you believe this, advocate legalizing all crimes. Or do you think abortion should be illegal?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

If you believe this, advocate legalizing all crimes. Or do you think abortion should be illegal?
In a classroom, a student makes a choice to disobey a rule. The consequence is that he is punished according to an established system.
In the real world, a person makes a choice to disobey the law. The consequence is that they are punished according to what the law says.
Knowing that abortion is a choice does not mean I approve of it any more than I approve of stealing or murdering a born person. It simply means I understand that humans have free will.

reply from: joe

Then make abortion illegal. Make it a illegal choice.
Humans will still have free will to break the law.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Then make abortion illegal. Make it a illegal choice.
Humans will still have free will to break the law.
I do not have a magic wand that instantly passes bills into law, nor do I have a magic wand that will change our culture.

reply from: joe

So you advocate making abortion illegal?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I advocate a slow program that will lead to abortion being illegal. I do not approve of instantly making abortion illegal right now. I do not think it is even socially possible or socially healthy. I worry that if we made it illegal right now, there would be a catastrophic increase in maternal deaths due to illegal abortions. I also fear there will be a backlash that will lead to abortion being even more intrenched in our society. I reference Prohibition as my example. Yes, it's a lovely idea to outlaw alcohol, but doing it suddenly like that, without the entire nation's support, led to gang warfare, the mafia, and a society completely obsessed with alcohol as some kind of "naughty right".
So yes, I do advocate making abortion illegal, but in steps.
1. Set the limit for elective abortions at 20 weeks. This will be lowered as time goes on and as viability goes down.
2. Regulate the abortion industry. Give it strict standards of sanitation. Make it so that anyone performing an abortion MUST be a doctor. Hold the clinics LIABLE for breaking the law and shut them down. Right there you'll close a ton of clinics simply because they're disgusting.
3. Put counselors in the abortion clinics who care about the unborn AND the woman. These counselors need to be trained to truly help the woman work through all of her fears and get to the true root of why she's aborting, because the truth is, she usually doesn't want to but believes she has no other choice. This counselor will then help the woman find pro-life resources and stay with the woman throughout the pregnancy if needed. One-on-one, long-term care.
4. Begin reducing the number of acceptable elective reasons a woman can abort for. Maternal mental danger must be confirmed by a psychologist. Rape would still be an acceptable reason only if after counseling the woman still feels it's the only choice. Fetal abnormalities would not be an acceptable reason unless the abnormality was endangering the woman's life or the fetus had 0% chance of survival. Continually reduce the elective acceptable reasons until abortion is only legal for health reasons. Mental, physical or fetal health.

reply from: yoda

The only surprising thing about that argument is that it's coming not from an avowed, radical proabort, but from an avowed prolifer. Just amazing......

reply from: yoda

And your "steps" would take what..... another 35 years to result in the outlawing of abortion? And another 45 million babies would have to die before YOU think that society is "ready" to stop killing babies?
That sounds to me an awfully lot like the arguments made to keep slavery legal before the civil war.....

reply from: churchmouse

I never said we can't or shouldnt defend or protect ourselves.
Hill was not defending himself. He simply stalked someone shot and killed him. He also killed another human being, whose job was to protect him. Did he deserve death too?Guilty by association..........? What was he doing wrong? Then killing them was not enough so Hill severly injured the doctors wife. Did she also deserve it? Should Hill have killed all those associated with the doctor? Should he then have gone into the clinic and killed everyone there too?
Tragically abortion is an act that is legal in the United States. We live in a secular country, that is why its legal. The doctor based on our laws, WAS DOING NOTHING WRONG. We might think differently but if we do not obey and follow the laws in this country.........then we will live in utter chaos.
My cousin was killed by a careless driver. Should I go kill him and the passenger he had with him? If we take the law in our own hands.....is it then safe to walk outside our own homes for fear of being killed?
I believe abortion is a sin against God. I am a Christian and believe that there is no case for abortion in the Bible. We live in a country where all faiths are equal.
Do you think then if Hills actions were ok, that a Muslim that wanted to carry out sharia law on a family member would also be ok in doing so? Eating dogs is a delicacy in Korea. If a Korean in your neighborhood ate your pet dog would that be ok? Would your retaliation be ok, if you then went and killed him?
So Joe have you killed anyone that hurt one of your loved ones? If not why?
Do you take the law into your own hands? What was the doctor doing.... that our country said was illegal? NOTHING.
Abortion is legal. Hill was not defending anything that our government recognized, because they do not consider the fetus a person.
God said, do not murder. Hill not only murdered one person, but two and wounded another. He showed no love towards his enemy.
Joe if you feel that Hill was right.......then why dont you do it? Im not trying to encourage you at all but trying to make the point...that if you think his actions were to be admired, then why not do it too?
Our government. The Supreme Court Justices that made Roe law.
They were NOT his children. I wonder if he also thought that sleeping with other mens wives was ok.....? LOL
So, should someone go find the childs parents and kill them both because they are responsible for their own children and they are letting them starve? It is also biblical the responsiblity that parents have for their children.
Hill sinned big time. Whatever good he thought he did for the cause......it backfired. I'm sure he also brought on heartache for his family and friends. They probably filled his medical postion the next day and abortions continued on as usual.
Slow program? Socially healthy? It certainly would be socially healthy for the unborn child though wouldnt it?

It is socially possible, just like the day when abortion became legal. It happened just like that............

reply from: joe

Where is the scripture condemning self defense or the defense of the innocent?

reply from: joe

You are condemning Paul Hill morally, so according to God...show me the sin.
Do you support our soldiers? Then why are you not in Iraq? Why? Put your money were your mouth is.

reply from: joe

Waiting for scripture, waiting for the word of God.

reply from: joe

So...Are all soldiers sinners? All police officers sinners? Since you know, they "murder" and show no love towards their enemy.
According to God, abortion is murder. (in case you wanted to use the "legal" excuse.)

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Show me the scripture where the Bible says exactly that, or something even similar?

reply from: joe

I was under the impression we are to worship and follow God. Abortion is illegal according to God. A fetus is a person according to God.
You do know who God is....right?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I was under the impression we are to worship and follow God. Abortion is illegal according to God. A fetus is a person according to God.
You do know who God is....right?
America isn't a theocracy so no matter how much you blather about God supposedly saying abortion is illegal, it's meaningless.

reply from: joe

Show me the scripture where the Bible says exactly that, or something even similar?
I also use the Didache as Christian scripture.
It is self-evident to any born again Christian that abortion is murder, due to references in the bible about the unborn.

reply from: joe

You are missing the point.
Christians condemned Paul Hill morally, I expect them to back it up according to God.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

I don't even know who he is.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Show me the scripture where the Bible says exactly that, or something even similar?
I also use the Didache as Christian scripture.
It is self-evident to any born aain Christian that abortion is murder, due to references in the bible about the unborn.
A, what is that and
B, if you can't bring me a specific quote, stop asking THEM to. It's hypocritical of you.

reply from: joe

The Didache
Alternate title: The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles
c. 60-100 C.E.
The Didache is, in all probability, the oldest surviving extant piece of non-canonical literature. It is not so much a letter as a handbook for new Christian converts, consisting of instructions derived directly from the treachings of Jesus. The book can be divided into three sections - the first six chapters consist of catechetical lessons; the next four give descriptions of the liturgy, including baptism, fasting and communion; and the last six outline the church organization.
The Didache claims to have been authored by the twelve apostles. While this is unlikely, the work could be a direct result of the first Apostolic Council, c.50 C.E. (Acts 15:28). Similarities to the Apostolic Decree are apparent, and the given structure of the church is quite primitive. Also, the description of the Eucharist carefully avoids mention of the "body and blood of Christ," obviously being regarded as one of the secret mysteries of eary Christianity. Most scholars agree that the work, in its earliest form, may have circulated as early as the 60's C.E., though additions and modifications may have taken place well into the third century. The work was never officially rejected by the Church, but was excluded from the canon for its lack of literary value.
The complete text of the Didache was discovered in the Codex Hierosolymitanus, though a number of fragments exist, most notably in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri. It was originally composed in Greek, probably within a small community.

reply from: joe

They are the accusers. It is not hypocritical to ask for proof from the accusers.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Have you read the books by Mary Madgaline or Judas? Are these part of the Didache? Are the Didache accepted by the Catholic church? Not that I'm basing what I read biblically on what the catholic church says is "ok", but the do tend to be the first word in this kind of thing.
Is there any scripture in the Bible that says "do not abort?"

reply from: joe

No, they are not part of the Didache.

reply from: joe

13"(Q)You shall not murder.
This includes all innocent human beings.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

13"(Q)You shall not murder.
This includes all innocent human beings.
It does? How do you know?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

No, they are not part of the Didache.
Wasn't Judas an Apostle?

reply from: joe

13"(Q)You shall not murder.
This includes all innocent human beings.
It does? How do you know?
Know what? That it was human beings God was talking about.

reply from: joe

Not after the Crucifixion.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Not after the Crucifixion.
So, this Didache was written only by the people who were still apostles after the crucifixion.

reply from: 4given

Not after the Crucifixion.
Judas Iscariot committed suicide. He was replaced by Matthias. (or some say the Apostle Paul was God's chosen apostle)

reply from: joe

I assume that is the case. Judas was dead by the time the Didache was written.

reply from: churchmouse

Joe I understand what being born again means. I also know what God said about loving your enemy.
Did Jesus kill anyone during His brief life on earth? He certainly saw evil......why did He not kill?
We are to worship Him, that is why He created us. And yes abortion is illegal in Gods eyes and a sin. But so are a lot of other sins. There is no ranking order when talking about sin.
So do you think we should kill other people that are sinning against God? Mow them down in HIs name......where ever we see them?
You think this would please God.
He wants us to witness the gospel so that sinners might even come to Him.
Hill killed two people and injured another. You think God was happy?
You show me scripture where it says God would be happy at what Hill did.
You know you bring up war......and that is another issue altogether. You want to debate God and war, I would be happy, but this discussion is about abortion.
I condemn his actions. I can certainly understand his rage at what the doctor was doing......but you dont take the law into your own hands. If Hills actions are to be commended........then why arent you out doing it?
Abortion is murder. And if you believe that........then how many people have you murdered to make God happy Joe? How many unborns have you saved by murdering an abortionist?
I AM NOT ENCOURAGING YOU......I AM MAKING A POINT HERE.

Why is not the Word enough? Why do we need look anywhere else to see what God commands?
Yes. The 6th commandment says do not kill. Murdering is a sin.
If you read the entire Bible you will see that God loves children even HIs creation in the womb.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Not after the Crucifixion.
Judas Iscariot committed suicide. He was replaced by Matthias. (or some say the Apostle Paul was God's chosen apostle)
Let his homestead be desolate, and let no one dwell in it. Let another man take his office.
Judas turned aside from the ministry and his apostleship to go to his own place. Judas fell from the ministry and apostleship by transgression.
The "once saved, always saved" may also through unbelief fall through transgression, and their office given to another and their habitation left desolate.

reply from: joe

You accused Paul Hill of sin. Show me scripture where the defense of the innocent is a sin.
Should all Christians disarm? Is it a sin to defend yourself or the innocent with force? Is a Christian a "murderer" when he uses force as a soldier or a police officer?
It is Gods Law that I respect not some man made law allowing the slaughter of the innocent. You ignore direct questions and refuse to provide scripture to back up your explanations. You are a born again Christian, now tell me the truth according to God.
You brought up the mark of the beast...make sure you are not one of the Christians who accepts this mark because it is the "law". You are very similar to the Secular Humanist on this forum. A "man made law" worshiper.

reply from: joe

I am not praising Paul Hill. You are condemning a innocent man. He broke no Law of God when he defended the innocent.
BTW, do you condemn our troops? If the answer is no, then why aren't you out killing terrorists? You seem to not understand you can support without having to mimic the actions. (I do not support Paul Hills actions but will not condemn him based on the Laws of God.)

reply from: joe

Why is not the Word enough? Why do we need look anywhere else to see what God commands?
For the blind that cannot interpret the parables, it is good to show scripture that directly answers the question about abortion.
The early Christians called abortion murder, now it is our time.

reply from: joe

What is this Army of God? I serve no man.
Either way, better than a Secular Humanist recruitment drive.

reply from: joe

Divinely ordained????????

reply from: ProInformed

"I advocate a slow program that will lead to abortion being illegal. I do not approve of instantly making abortion illegal right now. I do not think it is even socially possible or socially healthy. I worry that if we made it illegal right now, there would be a catastrophic increase in maternal deaths due to illegal abortions. I also fear there will be a backlash that will lead to abortion being even more intrenched in our society. I reference Prohibition as my example. Yes, it's a lovely idea to outlaw alcohol, but doing it suddenly like that, without the entire nation's support, led to gang warfare, the mafia, and a society completely obsessed with alcohol as some kind of "naughty right".
So yes, I do advocate making abortion illegal, but in steps."
I understand what you're saying but there is a way to quickly change the legal status of abortion WITH public support, and without an increase in maternal deaths or a backlash:
Allowing the citizens the right to choose the exact legal status of abortion by referendum vote would stop most abortions and would also bring about major
reforms in the abortion industry. If the vote took place after a comprehensive public education effort, informing the citizens of the current legal status of abortion, how abortions are done, the facts of fetal development, info about abortion risks, how unregulated the abortion industry is, etc. the results
of such a vote would be well understood and endorsed.
Polls consistently show that regardless of what label people go by (pro-choice, pro-life, undecided), very few people endorse the current extremist legal status of abortion and most people assume that with legalization came the (implied) health and safety regulations. If you ask somebody if they endorse legalized abortion and they say "yes" it doesn't mean much if they don't even know what is legal.
Because of that we could have a vote today, without a public education campaign even, that could radically change the legal status of abortion while a LOT of the citizens wouldn't even be aware they are voting for change! A LOT of people are under the false impression that their current moderate POV matches the current legal status of abortion.
For example, so many presume that abortionists are required to be licensed gynecologists, that if they were asked to vote whether or not abortionists should be legally required to be licensed gynecologists, hardly anyone would vote against that... very few of those same people would realize they had just approved a major change in the way the abortion industry does business!
Another example would be requiring abortion clinics to have and use sonograms
in order to rule out ectopic pregnany (to protect the mother), to correctly determine the age of the unborn baby (to protect both the mother and the baby), and to give the mother the option of seeing her baby before deciding to abort (to protect the baby). Most people would approve of that requirement. It could very easily become law if the citizens got to vote on it but it would take a LOT
longer to enact that same change by legislative efforts. The former would undeniably be supported by the majority of the citizenry who voted for it by majority vote; the latter would be fought by abortion industry lobbyists, misportrayed as a minority POV being 'imposed', and could more easily be appealed/repealed (IF it ever passed).
Just allowing the citizens to choose the exact legal status of abortion by vote would also reduce the number of women who would abort, legally or illegally, because more women would learn the truth about fetal development and abortion risks if the abortion industry was required to grant them the patient protection right of informed consent. The changes the citizens would vote for would bring about more public awareness and therefore less support for abortion.
In fact even giving citizens the right to choose things like:
Should late-term abortions be legal for non-medical excuses?
would be VERY educational since most citizens have been told that late-term abortions are only allowed for 'hard cases' like the mother and/or baby is going to die of there isn't an abortion.
Tolerance for pro-abortion coercion will crumble too if the citizens are given the chance to vote on whether or not it should be legal to pressure or force a female to abort. Simply pretending that never happens, while looking the other way as the coercers hand them the payment for the aboriton, is how the abortion industry deals with that now... How WOULD they protect the status quo widespread use of coercion used to get women to abort while still pretending to be 'pro-choice' and 'pro-woman' if the citizens were going to get to vote on THAT? They'd probably continue to claim it never happens but what would they say to try to get the citizens to vote FOR allowing THAT?

reply from: joe

Never heard of them.
Since I do not advocate violence, my application would most likely be rejected...nice try.

reply from: yoda

I've never seen so much fuss about an organization that isn't even trying to recruit members here.... and apparently isn't breaking any laws. I thought as long as something is legal, it must be moral, right? Or was that more like "As long as we obey the law, no one has a right to criticize us"? I can't recall which one it was.....

reply from: yoda

Speaking of "Prolife Butts", here's some video of a big one in La Grange, IL. She's running a prolife group called "Small Victories" and hangs out at the Hope abortuary. Here name is Angela Michael:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2095758097051428998 [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9202373199796527460&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8042641794122833932&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1556174037679799213&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]

reply from: sander

With the babies having (gag) friends like that, they don't need any enemies....all the proaborts can now go home, your job is being done for you.

reply from: yoda

True. No one ever promised us, however, that all attacks against us would come from those identifying themselves as proabort/prochoice. We can only "soldier on" as if the NARAL or PP had hired thugs to attack us.

reply from: 4given

It is really difficult for me to accept her, as displayed in these videos as being a Christian and pro-life. She hinders the efforts of those with pure intentions. My son and brother came in while one was playing and asked "Why do pro-aborts speak so aggressively? Is it a matter of their conscience? They seem so angry." I told him she was actually a "pro-lifer". Hard to tell.. even for the pure in heart. Obviously as a diverse group of people we can agree and disagree on that many techniques used to save a fragile unborn child. I saw what I believe is yet another problem with the pro-life community as a whole- Her own feelings (never mind the "friend" in one of the videos) surpassed the purpose of her presence.. Penance? She created a distraction and also brought the spirit of oppression and anger with her. She does not represent the "love of Christ" or the "love of the unborn". Almost seems familiar to me, sadly.

reply from: carolemarie

Angela is nice enough. They have saved lots of babies at that clinic. They also have a mobile sonogram with them that they give the women free sonograms if they want one, (Angela is a nurse)
She has 8 children, and they are out there with her most of the time.
She certainly doesn't do it like I do, and is alot more agressive. But she has been doing it for over a decade and been very sucessful.
She has a radio show as well. I always have liked her, in spite of our differences in style and focus. She is more along the lines of thought that you share with Yoda and Sandler....more you are killing a baby to the women type of speech.
I couldn't get the video links to play, so I couldn't see them. But there are usually two sides to a story, and you are watching an edited tape made to make her look bad, so take it with a grain of salt....those who are pure of heart, wouldn't have a made a video to broadcast on the internet slamming her and her ministry. Is it a fight over turf?

reply from: 4given

So you know her? And saying she shares the same line of thought with me is interesting, if not insulting based on what I saw of her. She most certainly is not "nice enough". I didn't see any graphic signs. What I saw was a graphic "friend". Do you approve of her technique and approach when dealing with or speaking to fellow pro-lifers? ( based on the videos, personal experience et cetera and not what you heard on her radio show)

reply from: 4given

Did you watch the videos? She was the aggressor.

reply from: 4given

Did you watch the videos Michael?

reply from: carolemarie

So you know her? And saying she shares the same line of thought with me is interesting, if not insulting based on what I saw of her. She most certainly is not "nice enough". I didn't see any graphic signs. What I saw was a graphic "friend". Do you approve of her technique and approach when dealing with or speaking to fellow pro-lifers? ( based on the videos, personal experience et cetera and not what you heard on her radio show)
Like I said, I couldn't get the videos to play, so I didn't see them. I met her once and I have been at a clinic with her, so I don't know her very well. She had graphic signs with her, Malachi and that severed head one.. She acted like most sidewalk counselors, she just was more aggressive than me. Personality difference. She talked more about the baby than I do at first. She is louder, more aggressive, more pushy then I do it. They do lots of preaching the Word at the customers.
She was nice enough. I never heard her radio show but I have read her reports.
Here is one of them:
Monday - Bag n' Tag 219 murdered babies for medical research, pharmaceutical, and cosmetic firms from past week's carnage.
Tuesday - midnight abortions 51 OH, IN 2, MN, CA, NV, MO, IL 2 saves 5 pro-lifers
After wrapping up the radio program, we rolled into the Valley of Slaughter and engaged a three pack of Missouri girls walking into this killing place. We were holding a baby Malachi sign and offered to help them with free resources and offered them our brochure. The two friends physically pushed the pregnant girl ahead and began cursing and yelling at us for being there and showing that sign . "This is what abortion looks like. This is the truth. Have I now become your enemy?" One girl began to charge me, but stopped when I told Mia to call the police. We continued to plead mercy for this innocent baby; it was obvious this girl's friends wanted the abortion more than she did. Eventually, all four went inside.
But, two women got out of line and walked over to us and said , "Okay...Okay, we won't kill our baby. Will you really help us?" I said, "Absolutely!" and one girl wrapped her arms around me. She began telling me her story. She was 5 weeks pregnant from Sikeston, Missouri. I shared with her all the available resources and re-scheduled her ultrasound. She just wanted to get away from this place. We prayed before they left.
Another woman yelled at us as she pushed her daughter inside, "She was raped! F - off!" I told her, "You don't justify one violent act with another." They went inside.
Wednesday - 8 MO, IL 1 pro-lifer Follow-ups from the day before. Later that evening, Amelia and Mike drove from So. Illinois along with the grandmother to view their 21 week old baby girl on the ultrasound in our Highland office. We went over doctor follow-up and resources. The grandmother began weeping and said, "God bless you and thank you for letting me see my granddaughter." They left with a diaper bag and some baby supplies, and their hearts a little lighter.
Thursday - 46 TN, IN 4, NC, AR, MO, IL 2 saves 6 pro-lifers After a deluge of cold rain, the sun came out. It was very windy and we were soaked to the bone. Amber came inside the ultrasound van where we were able to show her her 24 week old baby boy auditioning for his life. She and Chris drove all the way from O'Fallon Missouri.
They were struggling with housing and finances, but, "God will provide a way." We shared a little of our testimony with them and after viewing their baby they were excited and hopeful.
Friday - 48 IN, MN, KY, IA, TN, MO, IL 5 saves 5 pro-lifers It was another bitterly cold and windy day on the streets, but mothers were slowing down to talk or listen to us pleading for their babies' innocence. Lakendra and her aunt accompanied by the father of the baby stopped to talk with us. The father of the baby was angry. Her aunt told us, "She doesn't want to do it, he is pressuring her." I told her, "Don't let any man make you choose your child's life over his. You can't get that baby back. God says, 'Choose blessings or curses this day.'" The aunt accepted the brochure and went inside to talk with her. A few minutes later, she came back out. They saved their baby. Praise God!
A mother and daughter from Indiana raced back out and got into their car and met Angela at the entrance of the parking lot. The mother was crying, "We're Pentecostal, we love Jesus...we're having a baby!" Praise God! I held her hand and said a quick prayer. The mother said, "She's scaring my daughter." I gave her the brochure and she said, "We want to get out of here." I got off my knees and she thanked us as she rolled up the window and drove towards the Interstate.
Two black-American girls carrying a toddler walked back out. We had spoken with them minutes earlier. They didn't kill their baby and accepted our literature and thanked us.
Kelly and her boyfriend came back out into the alley and we walked them to their car. They were from Illinois and would be needing some help. They were 5 weeks pregnant. They thanked us and took our brochure.
Another black American woman was speaking with us before she went in and assistant deathcamp education director Allison Hile stopped and asked her if she was o kay speaking with us . The woman said, "Yes." She ended up keeping her baby. Alleluia!
The baby-body parts courier pulled up and loaded four boxes full of dismembered dead babies into his vehicle and then drove off to the "Frankenstein" factories.
Saturday - 43 IN, KY, MO, IL 5 saves approx. 92 pro-lifers It was a beautiful day to save lives and serve the Lord as the Lord's people cared enough to show up for the battle. Our first victory was fighting for a parking spot in front of this death camp for the Ultrasound Van. It was frigid and very windy with snow flurries.
Community of Faith Church unloaded two buses full of prayer warriors. Pastor Todd began in prayer before they started their Jericho march around this high place. The church kept praising the Lord and began singing praises on the front sidewalk. Not one mother went inside. Throughout the morning, babies by the grace of God were being saved. Rina was able to view her 28 week old baby boy on the ultrasound screen.
Daniel was able to speak with Kylie and her friend from East St. Louis , Illinois . She was expecting twins and was 6 weeks pregnant . She thanked him for his help and accepted the brochure. Jennifer came into the ultrasound van and watched her 5 week old baby's performance of an excellent backstroke inside her womb. Pastor Todd prayed over the girls after each received their ultrasounds and thanked us and left.
We ran out of hand and foot warmers for the prayer warriors. Our fingers were frozen. Jason walked up to us and produced a picture of his little 8 month old girl, Aurelia . He thanked us for being here. "Her mother was going inside to abort her, but instead she was talked out of it. Here she is today." He gave me the picture to keep. "Maybe it will save a baby."
The church then lined up and held their signs around the public square down from this deathcamp. They got a lot of thumbs up and honks of support; only a few drive-by fingers. We were letting this town know of this abomination within their city's walls. They can choose flight or fight. When the church returned, we informed them of the battle count. They were encouraged!
Later that afternoon, Tamara phoned our home and let us know she was given our brochure and had saved her baby. She was 5 weeks pregnant. She said, "I don't know what I was thinking and why I went to the clinic. I'm glad you people were there, and I wanted to thank you."
Approx. 196 babies killed. 14 babies saved. Approx. 109 pro-lifers cared enough to show up throughout the week's massacre. 2171 saves since January 2000 and 23 babies have been adopted through Small Victories!
Everyday in Granite City is "Bloody." We remember the civil rights era as this week marks the 42nd anniversary of the march in Selma, Alabama referred to as "Bloody Sunday."
You see the commercials on TV saying "Mr. Bush, stop the genocide in Darfur!" Well, what about what is happening in our own land? Pastors and the American Church, stop the genocide that is ravaging our own land! If we are going to be rescuers in other lands, let us clean up our own backyard first. How can we tell other nations that genocide is wrong when we allow it everyday across our nation behind the sterile facades known as abortion clinics?
Humanity must begin at home first. Approximately 40,000 people have been butchered with machetes in the Sudan. Over 50 million have been slaughtered in America with suction hoses and grasping forceps and scalpels and of that, approx 375,268 here alone in Granite City, Illinois.
What will it take for our leaders and the American Church to rise up and actively do something to put an end to this atrocity, and restore morality?
When mercenaries march into our churches and begin slaughtering their tithers? Now you're messin'!
When gentle Christian prayer warriors stand aghast on the sidewalks surrounding these American deathcamps and watch in horror as mothers march their four-year-olds inside to be butchered because they can't deal with them anymore and they are an inconvenience, "One more Spongebob Squarepants and you're a partial-birth abortion!"
or they are the wrong sex
or they simply can't afford them any longer?
God is a forgiving God. He forgives our sins over and over. We are told we are forgiven and redeemed by His blood, but there comes a point that the Lord will either run out of patience or blood or both. This land cannot continue to stand by and ignore or participate in the shedding of that blood. Our hands are soaked with innocent blood. We keep looking over at Iraq and Sudan and pointing out the blood that is being shed over there. But what about the blood being shed in America ? We need to take the log out of our eye before we can see clearly to take the speck out of our brother's eye.
I guess that is why we see so many murdering mothers walking inside this deathcamp reciting Scripture better than the religious people or singing a hymn and turning to prayer warriors and telling them they, "know the Lord will forgive" them. I guess you could say they are a product of their weak and wormy churches. Most, not all.
Unfortunately, the American Church has indoctrinated the men and women with these lukewarm prosperity sermons that contain no hint of sin and consequences and repentance, or God's judgment. There is no absolute truth being preached from the pulpits. We sin, we fornicate, and we bring our babies to the abortion mill to be murdered knowing that we'll be in the pews on Sunday and God will forgive us. This is cheap grace!
This is what the Lord told Jeremiah to say outside of a temple where the people inside were religious, but living and leading sinful and corrupt lives. I like to call them holy hypocrites; the church is full of them and the world loves pointing at them. "This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. Do not trust in deceptive words and say, 'This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!' If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, if you do not oppress the alien, the fatherless, or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, then I will let you live in this place..." Jeremiah 7:1-7.
In the Valley of Slaughter, "The people of Judah have done evil in My eyes, declares the Lord... They have built the high places in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, something I did not command nor did it ever enter My mind." Jeremiah 7:30-31.
Reading the Bible without moral obedience is worthless. How can we expect God to look the other way when the Church and our nation are drowning in our sins and cheap grace? "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that His justice cannot sleep forever." ~Thomas Jefferson
We go about our religious routines thinking that we've already pre-purchased our ticket to heaven. We are no different than the Israelites and their detestable practices. Only we are repeating, "The church of the Lord, the church of the Lord, the church of the Lord!"
God's grace understands that sometimes the most loving thing we can do for other believers and the church is to confront them with their disobedience and to recognize that we have a responsibility to rescue the American church and those believers inside that have been overtaken by sin. That's what you call God's amazing grace.
Be encouraged~ Angela

reply from: 4given

Some of them. Why are you commenting on Angela Michael's "approach" -almost as if you find what she does/who she is as displayed to be acceptable? Did you watch the videos concernedparent?

reply from: 4given

Carole- you edited what you didn't watch out after I responded, as well as other things in your post. If only life had an "undo" button, right? And unfortunately I was not referring to elective abortion.. Or fortunately?! I don't know.. Either way a child dies during my weak explanation. I didn't read from her transcripts.. and quite honestly, I do not desire to. Why wouldn't the Angela on video play for you? And please don't compare her to me. That is an obvious ploy at condescension. I am not aggressive, hateful, unkind or loud. I do not engage the clients unless they question me.

reply from: 4given

I have not even implied that I find anything about her demeanor "acceptable." I did not even comment on that. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy in anyone who defends and praises Fboy condemning any prolifer for their "approach." Now what part of that is unclear to you?
I suppose the part that links your comments to this thread. What are your comments on the post in question as opposed to your obvious disdain towards another poster?.. Phillip.. Why does that name come to mind?

reply from: 4given

I have not even implied that I find anything about her demeanor "acceptable." I did not even comment on that. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy in anyone who defends and praises Fboy condemning any prolifer for their "approach." Now what part of that is unclear to you?
I suppose the part that links your comments to this thread. What are your comments on the post in question as opposed to your obvious disdain towards another poster?.. Phillip.. Why does that name come to mind?
I keep forgetting that only you and those you relate to are allowed to express your "disdain" for other prolifers, and only select prolifers (which is really my point). Fboy is prolife "but" he opposes constitutional amendment to end abortion on demand. I think that makes discussion of him relevant to this topic, at least as relevant as discussion of Angela, wouldn't you say? Should I submit my posts to you so you can determine whether they are on topic before posting in the future?
Who is Phillip, and how do you link your mention of him to this thread?
CP, please stop "being an ass", or at most try to be polite. I realize you have issues with other posters, none of which have to do with the links I was commenting on. If you have no comment about this woman.. why linger?

reply from: 4given

concernedparent, I promise to try working on that very flaw right now. There is no high horse here- some valued lads, Chihuahuas, parakeets, a lazy cat and an ass. I should not have assumed your response was related to my post then?

reply from: 4given

xena- I have to say that at times I love my animals more that the people I know and encounter.. Are your babies being cared for by family? I can't imagine a day without an animal friend.

reply from: 4given

concernedparent, I promise to try working on that very flaw right now. There is no high horse here- some valued lads, Chihuahuas, parakeets, a lazy cat and an ass. I should not have assumed your response was related to my post then?Not specifically, but I don't wonder that you quickly identified yourself as one of the hypocrites in question.
In all honesty concernedparent, I was responding to your post. I don't believe I am a hypocrite. I certainly am not above the reproach or correction of others. I have much to learn. I appreciate the opportunity you have blessed me with to do so. Whatever and however it may come, I am still learning.

reply from: 4given

xena: When you/if you have a child, chances are you will find your "no", as we have had stranded raccoons for 2 days in our dumpster. The noble young men in my life wanted to "trap and domesticate them".. What matters to me as a mother is that they value the unborn human lives with as much/ more intensity as they do the various animals they encounter. They are aware of the animal vs. humans (animal rights/pro-abortion) hypocrisy. Looks like the US government has many more questions than anticipated from my children, as one has sent more than a few letters to his candidate of choice on abortion/animal testing and abuse issues.

reply from: faithman

concernedparent, I promise to try working on that very flaw right now. There is no high horse here- some valued lads, Chihuahuas, parakeets, a lazy cat and an ass. I should not have assumed your response was related to my post then?Not specifically, but I don't wonder that you quickly identified yourself as one of the hypocrites in question.
In all honesty concernedparent, I was responding to your post. I don't believe I am a hypocrite. I certainly am not above the reproach or correction of others. I have much to learn. I appreciate the opportunity you have blessed me with to do so. Whatever and however it may come, I am still learning.
Well, can you see how I might view the fact that a select group constantly hound one poster, and she, I, and a few others are constantly being referred to as "pro-aborts," even though we clearly are not, then when one of your own admits he is also "conditionally" supportive of abortion prohibition, none of the self righteous "elite" deem it necessary to question his integrity?
I never pulled anyone else into this. You and others chose to side against me and the others who have been selected to make the elite feel superior.... I am outspoken to a fault, but I make no apology for calling it like I see it.
No you are only at fault. Out spoken has nothing to do with it. You are an ego maniac phony thru and thru. you could care less about the womb child, or the truth for that matter. All you ever do is twist words into slander and make things out to what was never said or intended. No one is siding against you at all, you just have chosen to position yourself against the womb child on a very regular basis. So blather on phony. the more you post, the more people will see you for the ego maniac self osorbed punk you are.

reply from: 4given

I did not choose to side against you. I don't know who the elite are. I respond to each poster individually. I appreciate the same respect. I have much to learn. I appreciate every opportunity to do so, whether through the true, the trying or the insincere. I have learned from the pro-abort/choice people as well. Sadly, my experience has shown me that there truly isn't a pro-life community. Is there a middle-ground? What does that mean for those lives awaiting their violent end?

reply from: carolemarie

The link will not play. I just get the begining, no sound and then it says video isn't available.
I didn't see that.
I did meet Angela and was at a clinic with her once. We are just really different in our ways of doing it.....she is more in your face and more all about the baby then I am.
I wasn't trying to insult you or be condensening at all. You are so paranoid!! I am not out to attack you or insult you!
IMHO, you tend to be very focused on the baby, so does Angela, you are alike in that way and I don't think you would have a problem with what I have seen her do at the clinic.
The video must be horrible!

reply from: yoda

You can't copy the links into another post and use them on this forum, you have to go back to the original post because of the way links are shortened by the software on this forum. Here they are again:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2095758097051428998 [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9202373199796527460&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8042641794122833932&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1556174037679799213&q=source:006749351231964369219&hl=en [/a]

reply from: carolemarie

Thanks for telling me that...I was wondering why I could never play anything.....

reply from: yoda

What do you think of the videos?

reply from: carolemarie

OMG!!!!
I wouldn't want to be out there with either batch!
What is up with the bigoted cursing woman???? And who is this guy who had his kids taken away from him? And why are they indulging in this at the clinic?
None of them acted like they had a lick of sense!
I can assure you she didn't act like that around me and I wouldn't sidewalk counsel with anyone who acted like that! OMG!
Sorry Forgiven, I know now why you were offended

reply from: yoda

I think it's important to note that SHE is the one who is alleging so many nasty things about one of the other protesters, it is not an admission by him.
My friends tell me that this woman is on a permanent power trip, and doesn't want any competition in "her territory".

reply from: carolemarie

He didn't deny it either....if someone had called me a child molester I certainly would object to it LOUDLY....
The turf wars always are a problem. Everyone wants to make a buck or a name for themselves off the death of these children....

reply from: yoda

In the mood she was in, I doubt that a denial would've made any difference.
My impression was that it wasn't a new subject, so all that had probably been hashed out many times before. She appeared to me to be just throwing insults as fast as she could, not wanting to hear his side of anything. And it certainly had no business being yelled out there in front of the whole world.

reply from: carolemarie

It does appear that they hate each other. To bad for the people who picked that day to go to the clinic, they were ignored while the two groups fought with each other......
This is what makes prochoicers think we are nuts....

reply from: nancyu

It does appear that they hate each other. To bad for the people who picked that day to go to the clinic, they were ignored while the two groups fought with each other......
This is what makes prochoicers think we are nuts....
I thought she appeared to be "nuts" the others handled themselves gracefully, I thought.

reply from: yoda

I didn't see any indication on the videos of "hatred" coming form anyone but the two women who were on camera.
But I certainly agree that such viscous verbal attacks do our cause no good.

reply from: jujujellybean

I didn't see any indication on the videos of "hatred" coming form anyone but the two women who were on camera.
But I certainly agree that such viscous verbal attacks do our cause no good.
absolutely, no matter where you are.

reply from: churchmouse

Where have I condemned anyone? God is the one that does that. You do praise Hill. He was not an innocent man. He killed not one the abortionist........but another man who was innocent and only a body guard. He also injured an innocent woman. You think God would condone this Joe?
He did not defend the innocent. And if you think he did by the murders he committed, then as I said, why dont you do it. In your eyes Hill did nothing wrong.
You want to talk about the war and terrorists make a thread and I will come debate that issue there. This is about abortion, not war.
I can certainly feel the pain in what Hill might have felt. Every parent could feel the pain of having to bury a child killed at the hands of a drunk driver, or murderer. But should we condone them if they take matters into their own hands and start killing people?
If you used God laws Joe......everyone would be comdemned, even yourself. Are you perfect without sin? Should you ever have been killled for one of your sins?
About Angela Michael
What did she say and do that was not nice? I didn't hear her swear? I did not see her hit anyone?
What did she do so wrong?
I did not see her as an aggressor? She stood her ground. She seemed to know all about Cetuss children, that they were taken away from him. And his daughter was out for two hours.......hungry? She knew all about Nolan as as well. She might be annoying but......I didnt hear her cuss.
I mean I dont agree with her style at all, I do agree with the guy in the background quoting scripture however. She obviously knows a lot about their personal lives because she is calling them on their faith.
Its sad is what it is. Two groups out fighting and running Christs name threw the mud. Two groups that believe abortion is wrong......but cant find commonality in how to do it.....because they are to busy throwing stones.
DIVISION.....WHAT SATAN COMES TO DO. Divide and conquer.

reply from: joe

"If you believe that abortion is murder, then act like it is murder."
Why churchmouse? Why do you persist in dehumanizing the unborn? Is it for our Christian image or our political influence?
Your post contains many errors if you truly equate the unborn to the born. I feel you do not truly see the unborn as human beings. It is futile to point out your errors if you deny the humanity of the unborn. I will never "water down" abortion to "win" friends or try to persuade individuals to see my point.
Only when the humanity of the unborn is recognized and they are seen as persons, will we truly have victory. Until that day, 4000 will die everyday while we try to "win" friends. I desire full and total victory, when all the unborn will have their inherent right to life protected as persons...nothing less will be considered adequate. Any individual that slightly dehumanizes the unborn is to be called "enemy".
Paul Hill did nothing wrong. He defended the innocent from the "Hitlers" of today, and their bodyguards. Like I asked many time before...show me the scripture condemning those that defend the innocent. It is Gods Law that I serve, don't waste your time with the illegitimate roe vs wade interpretation, which no honest person would take seriously. If you need help in defending your stance, feel free to ask your bible study group or your pastor to prove, according to God, the flaw in my viewpoint. And it you decide to post in condemnation of Paul Hill again, at least for the sake of avoiding repeating ourselves, post something more than your same opinion...how about a Law from God.
For concernedparent (the secular humanist and advocate of banning all speech that humanizes the unborn): I do not advocate violence....remember it, so I do not have to repeat it.

reply from: churchmouse

You twist and you turn what people say Joe.
I am a Christian and I stand on scripture, all scripture....every bit of it.
I will say this one last time slowly so you might get it this time.
Abortion is premeditated murder. The doctor, the nurse, the mother.......all take part in the murder.
God says murder is a sin.......so they are all sinners in Gods eyes.
I am agaisnt abortion in every case except if the mother was dying. This almost never happens however, one or both can be saved.
I am even agaisnt abortion for rape, incest. OK?
I believe the unborn is a person in Gods eyes, the same as a born child. Both are equal, both have souls.
I believe in justice and for me I understand that justice might just come for some in another life. This is scriptural.
I picket, I work many hours a week for pro-life causes. This includes not only abortion but embryonic stem cell, doctor assisted suicide.
I am a Christian, I am pro-life.
Got it?
Where you and I dissagree.....you fell Hills actions should be applauded, that what he did wasn't wrong. I dont care how upset he got, two wrongs do not make a right. He murdered two people and injured another. He is a murderer and that is sin in Gods eyes.
His passion, his intentions became dirty became sinful when he killed. If you think what he did was so righteous........then why arent you out doing what he did? You scared........or dont you love God enought to become a martyre? That is what you think Hill is. You put him up and what he did on a pedestal. I do not.
I think he gave the pro-life position a black eye by his actions..and I think God will punish him for it.
How will we win Joe.......by multiplying Hills? That is not what Christ would want. The justice you want for sinners like Hill........in this life just might not happen. But God is perfect and He will be just. He will punish accordingly, I have no doubt, no worry.
You dont take matters into your own hands and murder abortionists.
Then why dont you do it Joe? Don't love the unborn enough to die for them?
Why did the other man he kill deserve to die? Tell me about the other man he killed? How about the woman he injured? Did she deserve it too?
You know Joe..........did Jesus kill anyone during His life? He must have seen injustices.......why didnt He kill people?
He didn't defend squat. He murdered two people and injured one. Paul Hill became a muderer that day and I believe he will pay.
You must hate the apostle Paul, Moses, and David.
David committed adultery and murder, and God chose him to be Israel's greatest king. Amazing.
Paul,was a persecutor of the early church and approving witness of the first Christian martyr and God chose him to take the gospel to the Gentiles and write more New Testament books than any other author. Unreal isnt it?
Moses was a murderer, so shy that he told God to look for someone else, and God chose him to lead Israel out of bondage and up to the Promised Land. Unbelievable.
For your ways are not my ways,' declares the Lord, 'neither are your thoughts my thoughts. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.' " (Isaiah 55:8-9)
God chose them why? Why Joe do you presume to know Gods plan for peoples lives? How do you know that God did not have a plan for the man Hill murdered that day?
Hill took matters into his own hands, he did not honor God.
Moses, David, Paul all changed Joe. God worked in each one of their lives to change them. Hill took the chance away from someone that could have changed, that could have got saved. Hill ruined their chance.........he took matters into his own hands.
Did you know that Bernard Nathanson had a change of heart Joe? Tiller could too. I believe God works in mysterious ways, and can change even the most hardened heart.
I know He changed me, and I murdered my own child. It was by His Grace that I was saved.
I dont need to ask anyone Joe. I have all I need in the Bible. I look to that for answers, people are fallible and so are bible study groups, and churches. God makes his opinion crystal clear in the scriptures. I can read......I might not understand everything, but I get the big picture and the major points God wants us to get.
If you think that you are above reproach, then God help you Joe. If you think that you just know it all and that what you say is perfect, then it is you that need to read the Word. We all are sinners, we all make mistakes...."none is righteous."
I believe you truely have passion for the unborn, I share the pain you feel just at the thought of the act of abortion. I cry more than I laugh some days just because it gets you down. But murdering people in cold blood is not right in Gods eyes.
You do advocate it......if you put Hill up on an ivory tower and you do that Joe.
Joe did Jesus ever see people sin? Did He kill anyone?
Why? Didnt Jesus care?

reply from: nancyu

to churchmouse: I see some conflict in your thinking. Can you clear some things up for me?
You say you equate the born to the unborn. Would you advocate killing a born child if the mother might die otherwise? (I've asked this one before, no answer from you yet)
I don't sense sincerity here.
It sounds like you are trying to incite violence churchmouse.
Why do you presume to know Gods plan for peoples lives?

It sounds like you are trying to incite violence churchmouse.
Why do you presume to know Gods plan for peoples lives? Maybe His plan involved Paul Hill.
Why churchmouse do you presume to know Gods plan for peoples lives?
You do advocate it......if you put Hill up on an ivory tower and you do that Joe.
"David committed adultery and murder, and God chose him to be Israel's greatest king. Amazing.
Paul,was a persecutor of the early church and approving witness of the first Christian martyr and God chose him to take the gospel to the Gentiles and write more New Testament books than any other author. Unreal isnt it?
Moses was a murderer, so shy that he told God to look for someone else, and God chose him to lead Israel out of bondage and up to the Promised Land. Unbelievable."
Does this mean God advocates violence? I don't see joe putting Paul Hill in an Ivory Tower. He simply won't condemn the man. It's not his job. Neither is it yours.
Following your [joe/paul hill] logic, if he loves those who have and do abortions, He must advocate the killing right?

reply from: churchmouse

nancy
How could this happen? Give me an example, because I can't think of a situation where this would happen.
How many women in the past have died in childbirth? Today medical science has made advances that make it almost impossible to have to kill in order to save a life.
And about my statement about rape and incest.......why would you think I am not sincere about this? I stated it in black and white........I am not for abortion unless the mother is on her deathbed and dying. But like I said.......how much does this happen?
Every time I discuss this I mention that I am not inciting violence. You missed the point I was trying to make. Joe is the one that thinks that violence is ok. I do not. Why not ask him that question? Why the violence Joe and does it glorify God and if it does.........then why arent more Christians doing it?
I will state it once again, maybe you will finally catch it.
I have every right to question him on this without being accused of wanting him to do it. Your something else nancy, I tell ya.
If Joe thinks, (and he has said that Hill did NOTHING WRONG) violence is the answer.......then why doesnt he do the same thing? Why dont all pro-lifers storm the clinics and go on killing rampages? He thinks because I do not condone Hills actions, that I am a false Christian and that I am not pro-life in the real sense.
Do you nancy condone what Hill did? Do you think his killings were justified?
I'll ask you the same question. If you say yes to this question then why dont you do it? Arent you passionate enough?
And what would Jesus do if he walked the earth today? Would He kill too? He never killed anyone while He was living did he? Why? Certainly there were sinners doing horrible things. Why?
Hill took matters into his own hands. He took two lives and injured another. He did not help our fight for the unborn. He sinned. Joe condones sin and you do to if you answer yes to that question.
Joe won't address the question as to why he wont follow in Hills footsteps, he runs. He just says........"show me scripture". He wont address it.
I don't, Joe does. Hill cut short two lives that could possibly have come to God.
Obviousy Hill presumed to know what was best for the people he mowed down didnt he? Joe thinks Hill is a hero......so he too is playing with Gods plan for others lives.
Heres what I believe you dont get nancy.
First of all you have been vocal about how you feel about me and that is fine. You say I am judging Joe, by questioning his line of thinking. Dont we all do that here on this board? You imply that for me its wrong to do this. You do it don't you?
You judge me for my words. You say I cant judge Joe.......but you do it to me.
God says nothing, absolutely nothing about judging actions and words nancy.
You assume the primary function of judging is to punish the wicked. It is NOT, that's secondary. The primary function of judging is to PROTECT THE RIGHTEOUS. Look at our justice system today. We bend over backward to protect the criminal and offer little to the victim. This is perverted thinking. Who protects the unborn?
It is NEVER in line with Gods will to deal with righteous as with the wicked.
We as Christian have EVERY RIGHT to judge believers behavior and actions. We are not however responsible for the final evaluation of anyone's character, including our own. (1 Corinthians 4:4)
God alone has this authority.
What do you think our courts of law do....juries, judges nancy? They judge. What do parents do concerning their children? The make judgments. If we do not judge peoples actions how do we protect ourselves?
We are responsible to judge conduct and relationships. We are not to base this on our feelings, or by the opinions of society or even by our own estimation of ourselves. We are to judge conduct and relationships by the CLEAR TEACHING AND STANDARDS REVEALED IN THE WORD OF GOD.
I believe Hill violated Gods commandment in doing what he did.
God can think and do whatever He wants nancy. It doesnt matter if you or I understand or accept it. He sets the rules the boundaries and we are to follow them, whether they make sense or not.
I personally think Hagar got a bum rap. But it doesnt matter what I think, GOD HAD A PLAN AND IT IS PERFECT.
I personally dont understand a lot of the bloodshed that went on in the OT, but God has a bigger plan, to complex for any of us to comprehend, certainly me.
I think God allows things to happen for that bigger plan.
Do you think God would think it was alright nancy, if all of us in the pro-life movement just went out and started killing people in the name of justice?
Lets kill everyone at abortion clinics.....the receptionist, the parking lot attendent, the nurses, doctors........even the UPS or FEDX driver that does deliverys.
How about the people that serve them lunch down the street.........
Would these actions glorify God? Did Hill glorify God nancy? to even answer this question....makes you a judge and you said that is wrong.
I believe God gave us free wills and that no one is programed. I believe God allows things to happen for our own good.
By asking this question it makes me think that you question Gods plan.
I believe God came to die for all of us. He wants us all to be His sheep. He came and died because He loved us. We can either accept the free gift or reject it. The majority of mankind will reject what He came and did......"few will enter"
God is love but He also is a lot of other things.
He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished Ex 34:6 34:7
The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Ro 1:18
'The LORD is slow to anger & abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity & transgression but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.'
Nu 14:18
We have to have enough faith and trust that God will punish those that need punishing. We cant take matters into our own hands. Adam and Eve....Abraham and Sarah did that and we still are paying for their sin.
God is just.
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion & authority, before all time & now & forever. Amen. Jude 25

reply from: joe

Interesting. Not one mention of the 4000 human beings that have their chance in life taken away, today. Not one mention how the abortionists kill 4000 people that are part of God's plan.

reply from: yoda

Apparently, God didn't have any plan for them that day....... go figure.

reply from: joe

God and his laws do not change. But you do not serve God, do you?
You would approve of force if the seven human beings ruled that it is illegal? Human beings are not above God.
Abortion is illegal according to God. But that is not enough for you, is it?
FYI, this is not about condoning Hill. It is about the humanity of the unborn and how pro-lifers cause more damage by speaking lies. Do you think the pro-aborts are really that stupid? They question our sincerity because our statements are conflicting. We need one voice and one message and not look like fools condemning someone who died for those we "claim" are human beings. Your deception is obvious...you clearly do not equate the unborn to the born.

reply from: joe

How can I forget, you "just" advocate banning the most important "speech" that acknowledges the humanity of the unborn. Excuse my oversight.

reply from: joe

I just read a lecture about "false witness" from concernedparent and look a perfect example above ^.
Maybe you need to expand you vocabulary to include the word neutral. I do not advocate nor condemn violence...I maintain a neutral position. If you need a definition posted, I would gladly oblige.
Why does freedom of speech bother you so much? I understand the pro-abort position but not from a pro-life advocate. I guess when you can't defeat the truth you try to silence it...right concernedparent.
Absolute truth will always defeat relative morality, even if you try to restrict speech.

reply from: joe

"The unborn child is a person" ...is that inciting violence? Would "specially trained investigators" consider this a crime, since it could lead someone to defend a person.
How about this one "the inherent right to life of a unborn human being" ...you know someone might consider protecting the unborn, would that be considered hateful speech against those who kill unborn human beings. You know, some might actually hate the abortionist who is violating the inherent right to life of this unborn human being.

reply from: joe

Really? The almighty concernedparent tells me so! Well, maybe your "specially trained speech police" might disagree. Careful what you wish for, you just might get it....

reply from: joe

Wow!! When you cannot defend your argument you call someone dumb...too funny and sad. Either way your ignorance of human history is well documented and you advocating such a dangerous law shows how mislead you are.
Study some history...begin with your ancestors. I believe we are done here.

reply from: churchmouse

You know Joe........you obviously only care about the 4000 lives taken in the United States. Why?
"Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million Number of abortions per year"
http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

You make no mention of them, why Joe?
Get your facts straight. These lives God created too.
You just wont answer any questions which proves you dont know the answers and your back is against the wall.
Yes abortion is wrong in Gods eyes. Yes the unborn are people that should have rights.
But PREMARITAL SEX AND ALL OTHER SIN is WRONG in Gods eyes too.
What about those Joe? You think all sinners should be executed Hill style?
What are you advocating Gods children to do? Christ came for sinners......he came for the abortionist, the adulterer, the theif. He didnt come for perfect people Joe. There is no such thing as a perfect person. We as Gods children should witnesses to the lost. We need to tell them about sin, and Christ and hope of eternal life.....turning away from their sin.
It's more than the unborn child being slaughtered Joe, way more. You can only see this. We were created to serve, honor and love God. Our primary job is to win souls for Him. And anyone can change, even the abortionist.
My statements are not conflicting. I am pro-life and I have given the reasons why. But I am a Christian first and I take what God says seriously. I witness to people wherever I go. My car is covered with pro-life stickers and I work the front lines for this cause. What do you do Joe besides but people like me down?
Obviously you say you are a Christian. But Joe people can see the inhumanity the injustice of abortion without being in God. I work with a few people like this.

In your defense I have never seen you say this either.
And when you say that Joe advocates violence I agree. He wont come out and say it because he runs from the questions asked of him.
I would like to know why Christ didnt kill anyone while He was living on earth. If we are to be like Christ.......then did Hill act like Christ?
I agree with your assessment of Joe. He is the one that advocates violence.
Yet when asked why he wont participate in that violence, he runs from answering.
He does NOT ADVOCATE A NEUTRAL POSTION.
As I have been accused by nancy.......I do NOT ADVOCATE VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND AND I AM NOT EGGING JOE ON. I simply feel I am asking a legitamate question, that if Joe thinks Hills actions were Godly and are what God would want us to do.........WHY ISNT HE DOING IT TOO?
Will his answer to God someday be........"Oh I know the slaughter was wrong and some may have committed acts of violence in your name which I think was ok.....but I remained neutral."
PLEAZE

reply from: joe

It is my backyard. All innocent human life should be protected....no exceptions.
Christians should execute no one. The right to defend innocent human life is given from God.
Speak the truth. You advocating Christians to embrace pacifism is not scriptural. Yet I assume you would defend your own life...

So can the thief breaking into your home yet I assume you would use force or call someone who would force to stop him...
I am not putting you down and what I do for the cause is not your concern.
Careful who and what you defend, you have no idea what concernedparent truly advocates. You have answered my question, "Where were the Christians during the slaughter of the Jews?"
I will not say it because I do not advocate it. The truth remains, Paul Hill violated no Law of God...he is innocent.

You would not be a Christian if he did. But do not forget who he told us to fear,
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your question is not legitimate. You fail to understand my answer or deliberately ignore it.
What is your answer to God? "I know they were killing the "least of these" yet I assumed I should love those that kill more than I should love you."
Bottom line Churchmouse, I do question my position and do not fear the answers. I will follow God and truth, I make no excuses. I apologize if I offended you in any way but it is the most innocent of us that I serve, feelings are secondary. I do not advocate violence for the sake of peace and hope that a political victory will come soon. Feel free to respond and have the last word if you wish.

reply from: churchmouse

And did Hill defend life? Where did he shoot this doctor? Did he shoot him while he was doing the abortion?
Did he see the doctor kill the unborn child? If he did kill him while the doctor was doing it.......I dont see how he was trying to protect anyone?
And again if you believe that his actions are ok.........then others should follow suit.
I do not advocate violence. YOU DO JOE. You think Hill was right and the doctor got what he deserved. And if Hill could kill in the parking lot and have it be ok to you.......then any killing in a parking lot is ok.
Two totally different things. I believe force on my part would be warrented if someone broke into my home to harm me or my family.
Now if he left my house.......went to another place and I followed him and then killed him.......this would be wrong.
Hill did not kill the doctor in the act.
Then if you think abortion is that bad and Hill was such a martyre Joe........WHY DONT YOU DO IT. (I AM NOT trying to condone VIOLENCE)

So if Christ did not kill anyone.... because had he done that, he would not be perfect......and if we are to be like Christ, have a heart like His.......then
how do you defend what Hill did? He did not act like Christ.
And this is my answer to God.
I did my best......for the unborn and to share the Gospel. He knows I had an abortion......He saved me from the depths of hell. He turned my life around.
Its not about having the last word Joe. I am not perfect and I have killed in my lifetime as you well know. God will have the last word however and like you I place my trust in Him. I dont understand everything, I dont try to. And I will be honest that this walk for the unborn is tough at times, especially when you look the pictures and your own sinfullness stares back at you on a daily basis. Its tough, real tough and I dont think I get through one day not crying thinking about abortions going on. It blows my mind that people with what science has told us about the humanity of the unborn.........can still condone the slaughter. Its takes every ounce of strength that I have to control myself when I talk to pro-choicers face to face.
But I know in my heart that Christ would not have condoned the actions of Hill that day. I have to have faith that these abortion doctors will be judged by God for their actions. Abortion is against all of Gods laws. It goes agaisnt the very nature of God. But we as followers have to first concentrate on the Great Commission .......the more we help lead to God the more that He will save....and the more that will be against abortion.
I know that you are passionate and I respect everything you say except when you say Hill was innocent. He killed two people and injured another. I believe God will judge him fairly.
god bless

reply from: Jameberlin

Churchmouse, i agree with you here. You are right. I also would like to say to you, i am sorry, for your sin in the past, and i am sorry that you must relive that every day. I agree with you, it takes every ounce of self-control for me to stay calm when talking to pro-choicers, and some pro-lifers too.
As far as the scripture not supplying any texts on pacifism, Joe, you're dead wrong.
Mt 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not to abolish them, but to fulfill them...That is why whoever breaks the least of these commands and teaches others to do so shall be called least in the Kingdom of God."
Mt 5:22 "What i say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna."
Mt 5:38 "You have heard the commandment 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But what i say to you is: offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other."
Mt 5:44-48 "My command to you is: love your enemies, pray for your persecutors. This will prove that you are sons of the Father, for His sun rises on the bad and the good, and He rains on the just and the unjust. If you love those who love you, what merit is there in that? Do not the tax collectors do as much? And if you greet your brothers only, what is so praiseworthy about that? Do not pagans do as much? In a word, you must be made perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
As you see, the scriptures are quite clear about what Christ expects of us, as Christians.

reply from: nancyu

Do you think this applies to the unborn child? Are we to turn the other cheek of the unborn child?
I'm sorry sir, this does NOT apply to the abortion situation.

reply from: joe

The abortionist is not your enemy. It is the unborn that face death, not you.
It is easy to say love your killer, when you are not the victim about to die...

reply from: joe

Do you think this applies to the unborn child? Are we to turn the other cheek of the unborn child?
I'm sorry sir, this does NOT apply to the abortion situation.

reply from: yoda

EXACTLY, Joe.
It is EASY for some $prolifer$ to "make peace" and "compromise" with the baby killers, because it is NOT THEM that is in danger of being killed.
The best we can do is to try to be the allies of the unborn. And "allies" do not make peace treaties with the opposition, unless they have decided to abandon their allies.

reply from: churchmouse

Do you condone violence like Hill did?
There is no compromise in this issue. There is no sitting the fence, no meet me halfway........abortion is murder. But do we ignore the laws of this country and take matter.......carry out justice the way we see it?
Just curious on your take.

reply from: yoda

I have to be careful on this subject, because even when I am careful, certain posters will twist and mutilate my words......
condone . verb accept or forgive (an offence or wrongdoing).
I don't "accept" what Paul Hill did as a valid way of stopping abortion, no. I think it causes more problems that it solves. And I don't "forgive" what Paul Hill did, because he didn't do it to me.
Neither do I condemn Paul Hill as an evil individual. I think he may have thought that what he was doing was the right thing for him to do at the time, thus I think he was misguided in his thinking.
Who knows, he may have even had mental or emotional problems that we will never know about. The instinct to protect small children is obviously much stronger in some individuals than in others; he may have had an unusually strong instinct in that regard. I do find it curious that many proaborts will rush to the defense of someone who kills their born children and talk about how they need "help, not punishment", but readily condemn Paul Hill to death.

reply from: churchmouse

Well said yoda I understand where you are coming from now, thanks.
I am not for the death penalty....so I feel he should have spent life in prison.
But he killed not only the abortionist but one other person......who happened to be doing a job. He also injured the abortionists wife. Did they deserve it......they killed no one?
My husband didnt kill our unborn child, I DID IT. So if he had been walking with me somewhere and someone shot me dead.......would he deserve it as well?
No Hill took matters into his own hands.
Should family members take the law into their own hands and kill the people that kill one of their family members? If God would condone Hill......then it only would make sense that he would condone other murders for the same reason.
I think Hill was sick.

reply from: Jameberlin

CM, i agree with you. I don't think the whole Paul Hill thing is really a valid discussion though, i mean... here we are on this forum, and we readily supply arguments such as "if you believe all living beings have a right to live, then why do you not apply these same standards to unborn human beings?" then turn on heel and say "every person has the right to live, except you, and you, and oh, yeah... YOU!" Is that really logical?
Joe, you said the scripture didn't supply any text on pacifism, when it clearly does.
My opinion is this JOE, and NANCY...
You think abortion didn't exist when Christ gave the Sermon on the Mount? You think women weren't so desperate then that they were willing to do such a dangerous thing? You think Christ was talking only of what happens to the individual? What about all those Christians who DIED watching the Romans hack their children apart? The Christians who would never betray their God's commands by raising their fists or denouncing their Lord? THEY weren't the ones in peril, it was their CHILDREN, and they watched them die to keep Christ's commands. You cannot quote scripture for every single thing in life and say it suddenly doesn't apply to this situation, it most certainly does! Abortion is not new! Abortion is as old as sex itself!
Look at what happened in South Dakota, they made it virtually impossible to obtain an abortion there, WITHOUT KILLING ANYONE ELSE. THIS is the way to do things, THIS is the way Christ did things. If you're so intent on someone else dying, then go run out and lay down your life for a sinner.
Do some people really not see that killing more people only leads to killing more people? Paul Hill turned people away from this cause, he gave pro "choicers" another reason to despise and disrespect pro-lifers. Are we really so deluded that we don't see that abortion has become so common place that some people have it out of spite? You think Paul Hill saved anyone? He more than likely made more people afraid of bringing children into this sick world.
I do not condone Paul Hill, nor do i support any person who thinks he was "justified". I can understand the argument that he was misguided, because i feel most people who take the life of another are misguided, as i believe more than a few women obtaining abortions are misguided, but never justified. You see where i'm going with this?
Abortion is a disgusting act, surely the taking of a human life, especially an innocent human life, is the lowest thing one can do.... but not every woman who has an abortion, or person who pays for one, or people who support them, can see it as clearly as we do. Certainly their vision is clouded by delusions, vanity, and selfishness. Just as Hill's was clouded with condemnation and hatred.
I do not support the killing of Hill, but i also do not support the killings Hill did.
If some cannot agree that Matthew 5:38 applies to abortion in this day and age, then can we at least agree that Mt 5:22, and 5:44-48 will always apply to Christians? If you cannot agree on those things, you do not hold Christ's word as Truth and fulfillment of the old Law.
"That is why whoever breaks the least of these commands and teaches others to do so shall be called least in the Kingdom of God."

reply from: nancyu

That is your interpretation of what Jesus meant. MY interpretation of what He meant is if someone strikes YOUR cheek, you turn YOUR other. I didn't take it to mean that if someone kills a child you offer him up the next, and the next, and the next, and the next....
Those in the Bible story were saints to stand by while their children were murdered. We are not all saints, and we can't all stand by and watch as helpless victims are murdered.
I am NOT telling people to commit violence to stop this. I AM telling people to stand UP, and speak UP.
Unborn children are persons. Do not murder them.

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg

reply from: yoda

That's for a jury to decide.... and his jury said no.
Not for me to say. That's what juries are for.
I can't speak for God.
Well, that's entirely possible, I don't know. But as I said, it puzzles me that women who kill their born kids... like that woman in Texas who drowned five in a bathtub.... or that woman in my state who shot her sleeping minister husband because she had been caught stealing money.... those women always get so much sympathy on these forums from the proaborts.... but Paul Hill was declared "totally sane and deserving of the death penalty" on day one. "Oh she must have been sick to do something that horrible"or "She needs help, not punishment"... are things I've read more than once. So what Hill did wasn't horrible enough? What a big "gender gap".....

reply from: Jameberlin

I wonder why it is, if the bible is infallible, and we are called to interpret it directly, we all have different interpretations? Surely ONE person's interpretation must be right? Yours nancy? or mine? How do you know your interpretation is correct, with no church to guide you, all you're left with are your OWN interpretations, putting trust in your own opinion of what is said, not God. That's just my opinion though.
It's true, we're not all able to be saints, we're not all capable of putting ourselves on the line to uphold Christ's commands... that's just sad fact... Christ calls us to be saints, though, does He not? Does he not tell us directly to put aside our anger, hate, and lust for revenge? If one can't even TRY, then one isn't upholding these commands in the least, and shall be "the least in the kingdom of God." It is no excuse to say "yeah, well they were saints" because the moment you start spewing excuses for not upholding the commands, that is when your salvation is at risk. We should, at the very least, try to do what is called of us.
Nancy, we ARE speaking up, are we not? WE ARE helping people choose life, we ARE DOING THESE THINGS WHILE FOLLOWING THE COMMANDS FROM THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT.
Don't forget the good news in SD, of the right to consent law, and the subsequent closing of the only abortion mill in the state. Don't piss on every victory we DO have, because you think it's NOT ENOUGH. Children were SAVED the week that mill closed, how many children were saved after Hill's crimes? How many of those women chose to keep their babies alive, instead of just making their appointment with another abortionist, can you tell me?
Violence begets violence, and the damage it does is irreparable.
Christ tells us to turn the other cheek, so we MUST DO THIS, while we continue to fight for the rights of the unborn, while we continue to counsel pregnant women, offer support for those who keep their babies. This is possible, it is being done, even now abortions are at their lowest rate since 1976, and no one says anything of these victories! If we don't celebrate these victories, we won't win the war. We can't fight a battle if we ruin the troops morale.
We are doing good, and we are saving lives. Some people just need to see the positive things we're doing sometimes, so that we're able to continue to fight for those of us who have no where to run, and no voice to scream with.
I'm glad you're not advocating violence to end this, because it won't end anything. What will end it, what will change hearts and minds is our voice. A voice that speaks of truth, redemption, and reason.

reply from: churchmouse

jameberlin
Some verses are so clear, especially Christs statements. How else could one interpret this statement?
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
He did not say that He was "A" way.......He stated that He was "the" way.
Big difference. He also said......."no one" comes to the Father except by Him.
This is a piece of cake to understand. This is a key verse in scripture and it comes from Christ Himself. There is NO OTHER WAY. Are there many roads to heaven? NO. Christ is the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER.
Now if you dissagree with this and think there are multiple roads to the Father.....you are essentially calling Christ a liar.
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Who is the light in this world? Jesus said it, He is. Who wants to walk in darkness? I wouldnt think anyone would. So who walks in darkness? Those that do not have Christ who is the LIGHT.
Simple.
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7
Now people make fun of born again people all the time. They think that the people that say they are born again are putting themselves above all others. But these are words from Christ. Unless you are born again......YOU DO NOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD. He coined the term not the people just doing what He commanded. This scripture makes if clear how you get salvation.
If you're born once, then you die TWICE; If you're born twice, then you die ONCE.
Salvation is found in Jesus Christ and no one else. He is the ONLY way to the Father.
I think the problem is that people try to shape scriptures to fit their way of thinking, their lifestyle. I think mainly they do this to cover up and justify sin.
Personally the scriptures are not that hard to understand. Ok Revelation is tough in places....but Christ made it clear enough to know what to do. I did not need a pastor.....or a church to interpret these scriptures for me. The only way to get close to God, to form a close relationship to HIm is to search the scriptures yourself. It is His love letter to us and we should read it daily.
Why take anyone elses word for it.......read for yourself.
Hooray for SD.
Nothing will ever be enough until abortion is made illegal. Nothing will be enough until Christ comes. But we must celebrate the victories that are being made. We have to trust in God and not worry.
I have a lot of stress in my life, so much so that some days its all I can do but get out of bed. I am a worrier. I constantly read what God says about this.
In Philippians 4:6, we are commanded, "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God."
In 1 Peter 5:7, we are instructed, "cast all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." God does not want us to carry around the weight of problems and burdens."
We have to do what we can in this fight and give the rest to God......give our worries to HIm. We have to find joy.
No worry or problem is to big for God to handle.
He could come down and wipe us all off the face of the earth. He could in one split second kill every abortionist on this earth. He has done that in the past, read how He poured His wrath out on people in the OT.
All we can do is to work hard even for little victories. They may seem little to us but they are HUGE to God.
I love this scripture and it really helps me when I am low.
Jesus says, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matthew 11:30)
I love what you said here jameberlin[/B
AMEN

reply from: Jameberlin

Churchmouse, your interpretations of the scriptures are actually very close to those of the Catholic Church.

reply from: churchmouse

jameberlin.
I love my Catholic friends !!!!!
We dissagree on stuff but we believe in the important things.
I just believe the Word is all I need........I dont need a pastor, church to interpret what I think is easy to understand. And I never got really close to Christ until I started praying and reading the scriptures for myself.
I think I have more arguments with the friends I know that aren't Catholic.......like Calvanism. DON'T GET ME STARTED. LOL
My own pastor and I go at it.......friendly of course.
If the Catholics were not on the front lines of this abortion issue, there wouldnt be anyone fighting for the unborn.......which I find sad.
I am on my pastor all the time.......he is becoming more vocal.

reply from: Jameberlin

Churchmouse,
I had a teacher in high school who was a Catholic turned Calvinist turned BACK to Catholic..... ..... He didn't exactly command respect from the students, and brought a lot of his Calvinist teaching back to the school and tried to apply them to Catholicism...which was really damaging to the children at my school because it confused them and went against everything their parents were trying to teach them... I don't like the whole "dung covered in snow" bit either, or that only Calvinists go to heaven, or that you don't need to try, because God has already decided where you will go..... haha, so i'm not too into the whole Calvinism thing either.
I think it's sad that Catholics are biggest on the forefront too, i wish there were more people willing to speak out and up about it....

reply from: churchmouse

Protestants do nothing really. It is sad. To worried about offending someone in the pew. To afaid they might hurt someone that has had an abortion. Afraid they would lost tithers.
If every pastor across the country would stand up and call abortion what it is.....would preach more than just one sermon a year on life......things might be different.

reply from: 4given

My feelings also- as well as my experience. What Church speaks out against abortion from the pulpit?

reply from: churchmouse

4given
I mean it is so sad. James Kennedy (while he was alive), Franklin Graham, Rod Parsley, Tim LaHaye, Hagee.......really speak out on abortion but the guys with the mega-churches DO AND SAY NOTHING......Osteen is a joke to our religion and really so is Rick Warren. They are more interested in their big churches and making money on self-help books. When Osteen came out with his first book I listened to him. I finally after a few weeks, realized that he never mentioned salvation and sin and Christ.
I've been working on my pastor too. He is really changing and becoming more outspoken. He needs to be especially this year.
Pastors need to drill it in to their congregations that abortion is murder, that they should align themselves with people that reflect the same ideals. They should also align themselves with the candidate running for president that reflects Gods view about life and abortion in particular. They can do this without mentioning one name.
God bless the Catholic Church for standing on Gods Word and NOT CAVING IN.

reply from: Faramir

My feelings also- as well as my experience. What Church speaks out against abortion from the pulpit?
In our Church, from the pulpit, abortion is condemned several times a year. The annual "March for Life" is promoted from the pulpit. During "the prayers of the faithful" there is regularly a prayer for the end of abortion, and there is prayer for the end of abortion at every daily mass. I have been to many Catholic churches in the US and the injustice of abortion is often spoken against.

reply from: churchmouse

"In our Church, from the pulpit, abortion is condemned several times a year. The annual "March for Life" is promoted from the pulpit. During "the prayers of the faithful" there is regularly a prayer for the end of abortion, and there is prayer for the end of abortion at every daily mass. I have been to many Catholic churches in the US and the injustice of abortion is often spoken against."
That is absolutely wonderful.
Are you Catholic, I cant remember?

reply from: carolemarie

I mean it is so sad. James Kennedy (while he was alive), Franklin Graham, Rod Parsley, Tim LaHaye, Hagee.......really speak out on abortion but the guys with the mega-churches DO AND SAY NOTHING......Osteen is a joke to our religion and really so is Rick Warren. They are more interested in their big churches and making money on self-help books. When Osteen came out with his first book I listened to him. I finally after a few weeks, realized that he never mentioned salvation and sin and Christ.
I've been working on my pastor too. He is really changing and becoming more outspoken. He needs to be especially this year.
Pastors need to drill it in to their congregations that abortion is murder, that they should align themselves with people that reflect the same ideals. They should also align themselves with the candidate running for president that reflects Gods view about life and abortion in particular. They can do this without mentioning one name.
God bless the Catholic Church for standing on Gods Word and NOT CAVING IN.
I have a problem with this condemnation of the Protestant church because you see it as not doing enough. I think all churches don't do enought to help women in prostitution either, but I don't go about denouncing them for not being active enough to suit me in my "cause". Plenty don't do enough about the poverty in their community, some habve no outreach in prisons and yet have a great missions outreach....God calls us to different things.
Rick Warren may not be your cup of tea, but at least at Saddleback they are actively combating AIDS, both here and in Africa. This disease is devasting our country and Africa....
Saddleback also has a prison outreach and others as well. They are doing what God has called them to do.
I don't want to sit in a church where I have to listen that abortion is murder all the time, that may be your passion, but I go to church to hear the Word and worship my God. I want to hear sermons that help me change and grow and have something to share with the lost. I don't need a list of do's and donts or position papers. It's about a relationship not a world view....
I think you are confused over what the job of the church is. It isn't to just take positions against abortion and other social problems or to influence a political campaign, but to share the Good News with a lost and dying world. You are out doing what God called you to do. He called your pastor to share the word and he may have call the girl in the pew over to reach out to prisoners....we are all differently wired by God. That is why we are the body...it is made up of different parts.

reply from: Faramir

Yes, I'm a Catholic.
And to respond to carolemarie, there are very few lenthy sermons about abortion, but there are regular prayers that it end, along with prayers for the suffering, the poor, etc.
There should be some mention from the pulpit, but it is also important that the church have some kind of position on the abortion issue. If I were not in the Catholic church, I would not be a member of a denomination that did not make it clear that abortion is unjust.

reply from: carolemarie

The job of the church is to lead sinners to Christ and help Christians grow in their faith.
Your job as a believer is to go out and change the world....

reply from: Faramir

We don't see it exactly as you do.
The job of the Church is to help us get to Heaven and for us to help others--but we have to make sure we make it ourselves.
We do not see salvation as a once and done thing that can never be lost.
And some of us need to be reminded that we as Catholics should allow no place for abortion in our own lives and we need to be reminded that we need to vote for candidates who will best represent justice for the unborn.
I appreciate whatever faith you have and would not presume to tell you what you should believe and what your church should be telling you, but we have 2,000 years of history and experience, and you're not going to be able to get the Catholic Church to change its methods, expecially since we beleive we have the fullness of what Christ taught, and I as a Catholic and any practicing Catholic feels the same way, and we will let the Church itself tell us what its job is as a Church, and what our job is as believers and followers.

reply from: carolemarie

If you note, I was talking about the Protestant church.
The one Churchmouse was slandering.

reply from: churchmouse

Believers make up the Church. And the Great Commission is a special calling from Jesus Christ to all His followers to take specific action while on this earth.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:18-20)

He did not ask.......He commanded EVERY CHRISTIAN TO DO THIS. We are to witness to those that are not saved.
I dont beleive any Church is perfect because imperfect people make up the Church. No one is perfect and we all are infallible. Why cant we read the scriptures for ourselves? Christ makes it clear what is sin, why He came.....and mroe importantly how to get to Heaven. That is the biggest difference between what I beleive and what the Catholic Church says.
But I dont want to argue doctrine. We are goign to dissagree on this......and we dont need to be divided. We both believe abortion is wrong and that is what is important.
Carole how am i slandering the church?
The majority of Protestant churches do not speak out on abortion. Read any book by James Kennedy......by Tim Lahaye......by Franklin Graham........by Hagee and they all agree that its about time pastors did take a stance and call abortion what it is.
I am talking about saying more than God values all life. I am saying a pastor stands up and says........ABORTION IS MURDER IT IS WRONG.

reply from: Faramir

I don't think pastors necessarily have to address abortion from the pulpit.
What would first be most important to me is what position my denomination has about abortion. If they permit it or are divided about it, then I think I would look for a new denomination.
I think there should at least be something like a catechism that fleshes out the commandments, and that would include guidelines about sexuality, marriage, abortion, etc.
The bottom line is that there is NO "Protestant Church." There are many Christian denominations, but there is no authority over ALL of them, and we can't make blanket staments about the "Protestant Church," since there is no such thing.

reply from: churchmouse

I do. Abortion is a sin......and the biggest issue of our day. Addressing it when most the congregation was there to listen to Gods Word would be the perfect time.
Well that is important too but a lot of people dont have a clue what their denomination believes let alone what the scriptures say. I think most Christians dont read the Word and have no clue what it says. George Barna has good stats on this one.......look him up.
I dont belong to a church that is affiliated with any denomination. We are just a Bible believing church run by imperct God fearing people that stand on the Word.
Well I probably shouldnt have made it seem like I mean ALL.
But how many pastors stand up and call abortion sin? Read MindSEige by Tim LaHaye. He talks about this in the book. If every pastor stood up at the pulpit and called abortion murder.......things might be different. If more protestant churches got involved with pro-life work like the Catholics do........wow.
I am not saying either that they are not Godly churches that dont do a lot for Christ......they dont do enough in this area, abortion.
But youre right I shouldnt have implied All. Thanks.

reply from: yoda

It seems like a rather glaring omission, to me, if a pastor never says anything about abortion from the pulpit. After all, it is the most contentious, most hotly debated moral issue of our times. Of course, some pastors are very sensitive about doing anything to hurt the "bottom line".

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is YOUR issue. Why should your pastor have to cater to you and your wishes about abortion sermons? Why not any other social issue that is important to another church member? Don't you believe that your pastor is suppose to seek God and preach on what the Holy Spirit tells him to talk about?
Perhaps abortion isn't the topic that is needed in your church. I
I want the pastor to talk about how to live lives that please God, how to apply scripture to our lives, how to reach out to the lost. Abortion during San. of Life week, other topics occasionally, that is a well balanced approach. But a heavy emphasis on abortion is neglecting other areas of Christian life which are just as important!

reply from: yoda

If abortion is not a pastor's "issue", then he is a poor moral leader indeed.

reply from: Faramir

If abortion is not a pastor's "issue", then he is a poor moral leader indeed.
What does your pastor say about abortion, yodavater?

reply from: yoda

4 score and 7 minutes ago, farty made a sarcastic remark.......

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg

reply from: Faramir

It was an honest question.
What does YOUR pastor say about abortion from the pulpit?

reply from: faithman

If you were ever part of a crew on a ship, you would be responcible to knw emergancy measures to keep it afloat. It is a life and death issue. Abortion on demand is a life and death issue. It is the most spiritual issue of our time. It should be the very first issue to be delt with in all churches. If they are not directly involved in stopping abortion on demand, it is derelaction of duty. To ignore abortion on demand is like ignoring the hurt man by religiuos leaders on the Jericho road. But of course a baby killer would put the womb child way down on the list of any consideration. Like a promise to stand in the way of equality thru personhood because killer mom would get the justice they deserve. But of course when you continuosly justify the killing of 3, it clouds your perspective.

reply from: churchmouse

Yes they are. Christ certainly did not mince words and had no problem calling sin what it is. And the men of God shouldn't worry about it either. I am not talking about yelling and screaming from the pulpit, I am talking about talking to a congregation about the fact that abortion is killing....and that if you are one of those sitting in a pew hurting.......CHRIST CAN FORGIVE. CHRIST CAN FORGIVE AN ABORTION.
WHAT? ABORTION IS MY ISSUE? Wow Carole. I can't believe you said that. I believe in my heart its Gods issue as well and that He would want people to stand up for the unborn ESPECIALLY THE PASTORS AND CLERGY IN HIS CHURCHES. Wow
We obviously see things very very differently. Wow.
Most pastors do preach about social issues....hunger and feeding the poor....adultry.....sin in general. But abortion is different.
This is election year and a lot is on the line, especially for the unborn child in the womb. There are two guys that are running. Obama who represents the democratic platfrom and is pro-choice and McCain that like it or not represents the republican platform that supposedly is pro-life. If there are any open seats on the SC..... which party will more than likely appoint someone that is pro-life?
I understand that pastors can't name the candidate of their choice.......but they certainly can preach on abortion the way God sees it.
They can comfort the families, the women sitting in the pews that are hurting because of abortion. Statistics show that the highest group getting abortions are Christian women. so dont think that the pews arent full of them.
I cant believe you said that carole.

reply from: faithman

Yes they are. Christ certainly did not mince words and had no problem calling sin what it is. And the men of God shouldn't worry about it either. I am not talking about yelling and screaming from the pulpit, I am talking about talking to a congregation about the fact that abortion is killing....and that if you are one of those sitting in a pew hurting.......CHRIST CAN FORGIVE. CHRIST CAN FORGIVE AN ABORTION.
WHAT? ABORTION IS MY ISSUE? Wow Carole. I can't believe you said that. I believe in my heart its Gods issue as well and that He would want people to stand up for the unborn ESPECIALLY THE PASTORS AND CLERGY IN HIS CHURCHES. Wow
We obviously see things very very differently. Wow.
Most pastors do preach about social issues....hunger and feeding the poor....adultry.....sin in general. But abortion is different.
This is election year and a lot is on the line, especially for the unborn child in the womb. There are two guys that are running. Obama who represents the democratic platfrom and is pro-choice and McCain that like it or not represents the republican platform that supposedly is pro-life. If there are any open seats on the SC..... which party will more than likely appoint someone that is pro-life?
I understand that pastors can't name the candidate of their choice.......but they certainly can preach on abortion the way God sees it.
They can comfort the families, the women sitting in the pews that are hurting because of abortion. Statistics show that the highest group getting abortions are Christian women. so dont think that the pews arent full of them.
I cant believe you said that carole.
AAAAAAHHHHHH the scales are falling from the eyes!!!!! That is the difference between you two. You are a truely penatant person. CM has perverted the scripture and the charator of God to excuse the crime she commited against her three womb children. God forgives, but that should never down play the killing of an innocent child. It most assuredly should not foster a self righteous smugness that dishonors the memory of the slaughtered child.

reply from: yoda

Regardless of one's religion (or lack thereof), most everyone recognizes that ministers are supposed to be "moral leaders" in the community. And there is no moral issue more hotly debated than abortion. So for a moral leader to ignore it seems to be a tacit endorsement of abortion, IMO.

reply from: churchmouse

Yes you would think so wouldnt you. But people today are drawn to pastors like Osteen that only stand up there to make people feel good about themselves. Self-help this and self-help that. He rarely mentions sin.....or repenting......or judgment. He diecieves those that listen. Did you see his interview on Larry King a few years ago? Someone asked him if Jesus was the only way to the Father. He dodged and avoided answering.......finally another caller asked the same thing. He never did answer it. He cant say the words because he doesnt believe them.
No one said the Christian walk would be easy that if you are a believer nothing bad will happen. Suffering brings us closer to Christ for those that are true believers. Of course we dont want it.....but have to find a sense of peace and joy in everything that happens to us.
Listen to this interview............
http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMwW6Q1JfAA&feature=related

All this from the pastor of the largest church in the country.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes they are. Christ certainly did not mince words and had no problem calling sin what it is. And the men of God shouldn't worry about it either. I am not talking about yelling and screaming from the pulpit, I am talking about talking to a congregation about the fact that abortion is killing....and that if you are one of those sitting in a pew hurting.......CHRIST CAN FORGIVE. CHRIST CAN FORGIVE AN ABORTION.
WHAT? ABORTION IS MY ISSUE? Wow Carole. I can't believe you said that. I believe in my heart its Gods issue as well and that He would want people to stand up for the unborn ESPECIALLY THE PASTORS AND CLERGY IN HIS CHURCHES. Wow
We obviously see things very very differently. Wow.
Most pastors do preach about social issues....hunger and feeding the poor....adultry.....sin in general. But abortion is different.
This is election year and a lot is on the line, especially for the unborn child in the womb. There are two guys that are running. Obama who represents the democratic platfrom and is pro-choice and McCain that like it or not represents the republican platform that supposedly is pro-life. If there are any open seats on the SC..... which party will more than likely appoint someone that is pro-life?
I understand that pastors can't name the candidate of their choice.......but they certainly can preach on abortion the way God sees it.
They can comfort the families, the women sitting in the pews that are hurting because of abortion. Statistics show that the highest group getting abortions are Christian women. so dont think that the pews arent full of them.
I cant believe you said that carole.
Well, I can't believe you have been complaining that the church doesn't do enough to suit you. You are so judgmental about what everyone else ought to do. Do what God ask you do to and don't worry about what the "church" does.
You complained about Rick Warren, even though Saddleback does alot of other things that are equally important, they just don't do your thing....in case you don't know, other things are important as well. The fact the church is full of men and women who are viewing porn is a hugh problem, or that the church is full of imorality is a gigantic problem that needs addressing. Abortion is your hot button and you feel the whole church should be involved as you are. They are not because God has wired us all differently. Missions are just as important as abortion, and AIDS and gang intervention and prison outreach are equally as important.
If you are a woman who has had an abortion and you don't know that God forgives your pastor needs to preach the gospel because apparently he isn't....
Quit slamming the church because they don't do what you want.

reply from: churchmouse

Suit me? The whole point carole in case you missed it.......is the unborn child. THE UNBORN THE ONE BEING SLAUGHTERED AS WE SPEAK.
I am saying that the church DOES NOT DO ENOUGH FOR THIS CAUSE. Suit me?.....oh pleaze and thanks.......how about suit those that are being dismembered, remember they have NO VOICE. Someone has to go to bat for them. We can minister to women, we can counsel families......but someone has to get off the pot and call it like it is.....murder. Our pastors should do this especially today, especially when so much is at stake this November.
I still stand by what I said before.........PROTESTANT CHURCHES FOR THE MOST PART DO NOT DO ANYTHING COMPARED TO WHAT CATHOLIC CHURCHES DO. That is sad.
I am NOT SAYING CAROLE THAT THEY DO NOT DO ANY GOOD FOR HUMANITY. I said they dont go to bat for the unborn child. Equally important? Rick Warren?
This is his position on abortion.
"Abortion. Like many (if not most) Christians, I am not pro-abortion. But seemingly unlike many Christians, when it comes to the subject of abortion I am at least honest enough with the written Word of God to realize that the only reference that approximates abortion in the entire Bible is found in Exodus 21: 22-25, a passage referring to miscarriage in which the life of a fetus is clearly not considered the equal of the life of a living, breathing human being. That's it. This sole reference is not consistent with what many Christians believe about abortion today.
As to the issue of when life begins, the biblical Hebraic understanding teaches that life is associated with the act of breathing. Again, this is contrary to what many contemporary Christians believe about the beginning of life. In short, to begin to make the Bible speak to the abortion issue (other than Exodus 21:22-25 as well as the Hebrew understanding of "life" as post-womb), one has to range far away from the literal interpretation of Scripture that all fundamentalists and many conservatives so insistently champion. Yes, as a Christian one can argue that abortion is murder and that life begins before the first breath. The best we can do, scripturally speaking, is to indirectly infer about these issues from the biblical text, as a recent New York Times article also noted."
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You should read his reply on homosexual marriage.
Over the head......
Pastors should address abortion as often as they address any other sin. One should NOT HAVE TO ASK. And my pastor does preach about abortion.
The only hope for America politically is that millions and millions of the silent pro-moral majority will become militant about their morality and work to elect men and women of character and conviction to public office. Pastors without even mentioning a candidate can help to do this. Warren does not get it. Anyone that could vote for candidate in favor for PBA should not get ONE CHRISTIAN VOTE. They should be rejected at the ballot box. Any politician who rejects the Bible as the moral standard of right and wrong should not get ONE Christian vote. Warren has invited both candidates to his church (why give Obama a platform?).........he continues to sit the fence on the issues and is not IMO standing on Gods Word. The word abortion might not appear in the bible that many times......but he misses the other thousands of verses that would lead anyone to know that abortion is murder.
Ministers in this country could change the moral climate of this country in a heartbeat. And if just half of all the Bible believing pastors had this vision and courage, America would not be facing the slaughter of the unborn like we have today.
We do not need luke warm pastors sittin the fence.
We have every right to criticize the actions of the Christian community. If we refuse to engage in the battle, if pastors fail to engage in the battle for the unborn,,,,,,nothing will change. Isnt it better to fight and lose........then never to have fought at all? Who said that?
It was the pastors of early America who rallied the people to throw off the tyranny of England. Pastors also rallied the people to oppose slavery.
I am sick of walking into Christian bookstores and seeing the self help guides, and prayer books, and calenders, etc. etc. etc......authored by men who could really make a difference in this fight and dont. They are more interested in being politically correct than rockin the boat about abortion with their congregations. I am sick of the excuses like Warren and Osteen give......"I dont want to become controversial....I think concentrating on the gospel is all I need to do........oh separation or church and state............excuses. God doesnt want excuses, He wont listen to excuses.

The bible says that the "righteous exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." Proverbs 14:34.

Boy do we see things differently carole.

reply from: galen

i'm pretty sure that every living thing and God see things diffrently from you Chm...
how many of those majic mushrooms did you quaff as a youngster?

reply from: carolemarie

And I would point out that AIDS is killing people, leaving children orphans or dying themselves....it is a gigantic problem and I am thrilled God has called Rick Warrens church into the fight to be a voice for people who are invisible! Warren could ask you, what are you doing about that? What about the porn problem with the church and our pastors! Nobody wants to talk about that at all, but it is a major problem (which leads to sexual acting out and can lead to abortion) I have yet to hear a sermon on that!
As I said before and I will say again, the church does plenty, yes the Protestant church ! I get really tired of prolifers whinning that their pet issues is the only issue that matters and the whole church should get behind them and their cause. Everyone wants the church involved in their cause and everyone thinks their passion is the one closest to God's heart....
The church is about the gospel and the only cause that matters is the cause of Christ.
You do realize that you are the church, you and me and all of the people, and we are told to exercise our ministry, well....you are doing so! You can't demand that everyone else do it to. Their ministry may be different.
So what are you doing about AIDS, about the hungry, about the immorality that is drowning the country and our land? What is your pastor doing about all of that? How can one man preach on everything and touch every ill? The pastor is suppose to be teaching you and the congregation about living the Christian life. Not recruiting for the cause.
Preaching on the sancity of life is doing something. A few pastors rallied the people against England. It was hardly most pastors. Some pastors rallied against slavery. Most didn't.
Activism isn't the gospel. The job of the church is to preach the Word and teach God's people to know Him and live this life of faith out. The church is about PEOPLE, about loving them and helping each other walk with God.
I am sick of walking into Christian bookstores and seeing the self help guides, and prayer books, and calenders, etc. etc. etc......authored by men who could really make a difference in this fight and dont. They are more interested in being politically correct than rockin the boat about abortion with their congregations. I am sick of the excuses like Warren and Osteen give......"I dont want to become controversial....I think concentrating on the gospel is all I need to do........oh separation or church and state............excuses. God doesnt want excuses, He wont listen to excuses. [Q/]
People want to read books on prayer to deepen their faith. Why would that bother you? I think pastors SHOULD concentrate on the Gospel! That is their job and charge from God!
The church is the bride of Christ, and He doesn't like you or me tearing her down.

reply from: carolemarie

If abortion is not a pastor's "issue", then he is a poor moral leader indeed.
She was complaining that the pastor's didn't talk about it enough, not that they didn't preach on it.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes you would think so wouldnt you. But people today are drawn to pastors like Osteen that only stand up there to make people feel good about themselves. Self-help this and self-help that. He rarely mentions sin.....or repenting......or judgment. He diecieves those that listen. Did you see his interview on Larry King a few years ago? Someone asked him if Jesus was the only way to the Father. He dodged and avoided answering.......finally another caller asked the same thing. He never did answer it. He cant say the words because he doesnt believe them.
No one said the Christian walk would be easy that if you are a believer nothing bad will happen. Suffering brings us closer to Christ for those that are true believers. Of course we dont want it.....but have to find a sense of peace and joy in everything that happens to us.
Listen to this interview............
http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html
">http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPeYUXuuRUM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9-PebV634&feature=related
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMwW6Q1JfAA&feature=related
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=related
All this from the pastor of the largest church in the country.
I go to a decent sized church, about 15,000 people and our pastor doesn't preach about abortion. But we are against abortion.

reply from: churchmouse

Oh mary...mary mary mary that just must be a goth thing
Bashing Christians again........no compromise I guess?
In vogue? Would be just like you to say that. I could ask you the same thing...about....no forget it I wont.
Losing its luster? People turning from religion? LOL Are you kidding me?
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What dont you get carole? I mean really. I never said......he didn't do anything good or that he was a false prophet. I said he was wishy washy on abortion. AIDS is a problem.........but so is the outright murder of the unborn child.......you obviously forget that.
What am I doing? Oh nothing carole, not a thing.
BUT I AM NOT THE PASTOR OF ONE OF THE LARGEST CHURCHES IN THE COUNTRY...and one of the mos tinfulencial pastors of our day. HE COULD IN A FEW WORDS SAY SOMETHING. WRITE A BOOK ON IT OR SOMETHING. HE WRITES ABOUT ENOUGH OTHER STUFF. HE COULD HAVE GREAT INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE. People that dont even go to his church.

My cause???????????
You have got to be kidding. I was wrong wrong wrong about you. MY CAUSE ?.......THIS IS GODS CAUSE. THIS IS HIS CREATION THAT IS BEING SLAUGHTERED. REMEMBER THE UNBORN CAROLE?
I apologize to those who told me that I was wrong about your stance. Boy did I get it wrong.
I dissagee to some degree ....we are to lead the unsaved to Christ. The Great Commission, remember? Jesus talked more about hell than he ever did about heaven. Why?
You think that because I question the motives of a few mega pastors I am tearing the church down? How about Phelps? Should he be criticized because he claims to know the truth? Or dont you judge what preachers say? They all stand on the word?
James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, Rod Parsley, Franklin Graham, T. J Jakes, David Jeremiah, Ravi Zacharius, Charles Coleson, George Barna, Tim Lahaye, Hagee,.......might not have mega churches but they all speak clearly about abortion.
From what I have read about Warrens comments about abortion.......they are lukewarm. I question why he would have Obama and Clinton to his church at all when they clearly represent the opposite of what God says in the scriptures about life. To even give them a platform......is unbelievable. Obviously there arent enough Republicans that fight for AIDS right?


Who is we? Did you take a poll? In a church of 15,000 I can only imagine how many women sit in your pews and suffer silently and dont talk to anyone. It is truely sad your pastor does not talk about it.
And my pastor talks about homosexuality, same sex marriage and pornography.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh mary...mary mary mary that just must be a goth thing
Bashing Christians again........no compromise I guess?
In vogue? Would be just like you to say that. I could ask you the same thing...about....no forget it I wont.
Losing its luster? People turning from religion? LOL Are you kidding me?
foreignpolicy.com | Owner: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, United States, 1779 Massachusetts Ave NW FL 2, Washington, DC, 20036-2109 | Server location: United States
What dont you get carole? I mean really. I never said......he didn't do anything good or that he was a false prophet. I said he was wishy washy on abortion. AIDS is a problem.........but so is the outright murder of the unborn child.......you obviously forget that.
What am I doing? Oh nothing carole, not a thing.
BUT I AM NOT THE PASTOR OF ONE OF THE LARGEST CHURCHES IN THE COUNTRY...and one of the mos tinfulencial pastors of our day. HE COULD IN A FEW WORDS SAY SOMETHING. WRITE A BOOK ON IT OR SOMETHING. HE WRITES ABOUT ENOUGH OTHER STUFF. HE COULD HAVE GREAT INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE. People that dont even go to his church.

My cause???????????
You have got to be kidding. I was wrong wrong wrong about you. MY CAUSE ?.......THIS IS GODS CAUSE. THIS IS HIS CREATION THAT IS BEING SLAUGHTERED. REMEMBER THE UNBORN CAROLE?
I apologize to those who told me that I was wrong about your stance. Boy did I get it wrong.
I dissagee to some degree ....we are to lead the unsaved to Christ. The Great Commission, remember? Jesus talked more about hell than he ever did about heaven. Why?
You think that because I question the motives of a few mega pastors I am tearing the church down? How about Phelps? Should he be criticized because he claims to know the truth? Or dont you judge what preachers say? They all stand on the word?
James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, Rod Parsley, Franklin Graham, T. J Jakes, David Jeremiah, Ravi Zacharius, Charles Coleson, George Barna, Tim Lahaye, Hagee,.......might not have mega churches but they all speak clearly about abortion.
From what I have read about Warrens comments about abortion.......they are lukewarm. I question why he would have Obama and Clinton to his church at all when they clearly represent the opposite of what God says in the scriptures about life. To even give them a platform......is unbelievable. Obviously there arent enough Republicans that fight for AIDS right?


Who is we? Did you take a poll? In a church of 15,000 I can only imagine how many women sit in your pews and suffer silently and dont talk to anyone. It is truely sad your pastor does not talk about it.
And my pastor talks about homosexuality, same sex marriage and pornography.
First of all, you have no business implying I am not prolife. That is so wrong and just outright not true! I care about ending abortion very much. I have spent 13 years helping women choose life and have been very blessed by seeing wonderful results at the clinic, and seeing God heal and set free women in post-abortion outreach. I have no problem with anyone asking God if they should serve in these areas. I think it is so exciting when God saves someone and lets me be part of it. But I don't think that it is the be all of ministry. There are other important works to be done.
I am more annoyed over your attack on the church then your attack on me. The Protestent Church does nothing! Everyone has to go do something about abortion. Where do you get that! Because you are so passionet about abortion everyone should be? Did it every occur to you that God doesn't want everyone out there? People who are mean and hardhearted, who call people names who are self-rightous don't need to be there. Those that are angry and want to see abortion doctors shoot need to stay home! We don't need a crowd of people, we just need a few God has annointed. There are other things that need addressing in this world. And God has chosen people to do that.
God has all His people doing different things. One of my best pals is called to witness and pass out tracts and that is her calling. She doesn't come to the clinic because that is where God sent her. My other friend is in China as a missionary, not at an abortion clinic. I have friends who do youth group in church. That is were God has called them. Not everyone is called to the abortion issue. Why that is beyond your understand is amazing. Is everyone in the body an eye? Are not some feet? This is your cause and your calling. It isn't everyones.....and some people who are doing it should quit and go home and learn what it means to love your neighbor as yourself first....
Your lot of approved pastors and writers would tell you that you shouldn't talk about the Church and tear her down and find fault with other pastors. It is wrong. You have no business tearing down what Rick Warren is doing because you don't care about it. And you complained about him by name and inferred that if he would just write that book, abortion would end. It would not. God will end it, not man. If God wanted, it would end tomorrow.
As for allowing non-Republicans to speak in the church, well God isn't a Republican. Clinton and Obama were there to speak about AIDS, and no, the Republicans are not willing to spend the $$$ that Obama and Clinton are advocating for.....Are you claiming that no Republican has ever spoken at Warrens church? Because that isn't true.
Warran stated that there is no direct scripture speaking to abortion. He also said he wasn't pro-abortion. Obviously, Abortion is not the area God called Warren to. It isn't negating the gospel to not write a book on abortion! It is hardly the same thing as Fred Phelps picketing funerals and other hateful mean things.
And I didn't say you didn't do anything about abortion... I said what do you do to end child abuse or AIDS? Do you not believe that these are important ministries as well? Why is everyone in your church not taking care of the sick and shut-ins? They hurt and need a savior as well......do you not see that God is the one who equips and chooses who He will send and where He will send them?
As for my church, it is wonderful and growing like crazy! Our position papers and doctrine statement is prolife, anti abortion. We have a post-abortion healing program. We have outreach to single moms, and if you are a member, nobody would stop you from going to the clinic or whatevery God calls you to...''but it isn't what we are gathered to do. We come there to worship our God and to learn how to live the Christian life.

reply from: 4given

What church do you belong to Carole?

reply from: carolemarie

Not Saddleback
I go to a non-denominational spirit filled church. I have only been going here about 6 months and we joined 3 months ago. Before that I went to a Southern Baptist Church for years.
Where do you go?

reply from: churchmouse

I never said you were not pro-life carole. I know you do good work I never have said differently. I was one of the only ones that defended you handling out the chocolates remember?
And I do not attack you certainly not on your work, but I do feel you forget the unborn child and concentrate more on the women.
I do not mean to attack you carole but I am terribly surprised at comments you have made, implying that abortion is MY ISSUE. I did not say everyone has to go do something about abortion. I said our pastors should preach what abortion is from the pulpit........REGULARLY not just once in January. And if they did this......they might reach hurting women sitting there that feel that their sin is unforgiveable. Pastors have a responsiblity to reach out to their flocks. It also might get people motivated to go out and do pro-life work.
I did not mean that Warren should ditch AIDs.........but I have read what he has said about abortion, I have read what Osteen has said.......and you can tell abortion is not an issue they want to get into.
Its more than just putting we are pro-life in an outlined book of Church doctrine. Some people dont even read them.
I am not trying to tear the Church down. But the Church is certainly not perfect and much more can be done. I am part of that Church and I have a duty. But as a woman, I am not in a position that a pastor is in especially in a position like Osteen and Warren. The two largest churches in America.......they have power and should use it.
Why?
Is there any topic, and subject more controversial than abortion today? This issue divides people. AIDS does not divide people. What other issue carole can so easily polarize people...families, communities. It has divided our nation. Even President Reagan called it the "defining issue of our day."
You need life to have freedom. And in America our commitment to life is under assult........particularly with abortion. We are doing today what was once thought of as unthinkable. And we are excusing it. And I believe that the majority of pastors push it aside, not as a top priority. Is it more important than AIDS? IMo yes. The right to life issue should come for Christians before any other social issue. We should uphold Gods Word regarding this at every opportunity and in every situation.
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-13)

http://www.nrlc.org/news/2002/NRL02/ernie1.html

I stand by what I beleive is the truth......that Protestant Churches do not make any impact like the Catholic Church and that is sad.
"Abortion isn't the only issue, but it is the fundamental issue faced by the Church today, said Father Frank Pavone, national director of Priests for Life."
"If life were not sacred then what would be the big deal about poverty, unemployment," and the many other social problems apparent in the world, he said.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/clippings/95,06-08catholicmessengeriowacity.html

Should the Catholic Church have remained quiet about the pediphiles that were molesting children? Should any church think that they are perfect without error? And if there is error.......look the other way, keep quiet so no one will notice? We cant be critical at all?
Warren wrote a book called The Purpose Driven Church. He talks about churches that are not doing Gods work.....and what they can do to grow. Even he sees weaknessess. Because I question pastors in protestant churches does not mean I tear it down, I'm sorry.
Of course God is not Republican or Democrat....but for Warren to invite two pro-abortion defenders, PBA at that and allow them a platform in his church, I think is wrong.
Carole......abortion is the worst kind of child abuse.
Then if what you say is the truth.......that God sends people where He wants them to go.........we all are programed robots and obviously God doesnt think abortion is that bad.
I am glad your church has the programs you speak about.......but I do not think the majority of protestant churches follow in your footsteps.
I stand by what I said.......protestant pastors do not do enough dealing with abortion and equipping congregations to stand up agaisnt it.
I would suggest readin George Barnas book, "Think Like Jesus." He addresses the same issue.
He says, "My research and the related training seminars I do across the nation have shown me that most pastors believe they are doing a terrific job of helping their congregants develop a biblical worldview and feel that they have largely succeeded. Unfortunately, as demonstrated by the fact that only one out of every twenty adults who regularaly attend a Protestant church possesses a biblical worldview, that confidence is misplaced. Vital connections are not being made between the three keys to worldview living: knowledge, skills and applications."
Warren and Osteen.......are mega pastors, that sell mega books and tapes that minister not only to their mega churches but to millions worldwide. They get the press and people flock to hear what they say. They are the celebrities of their field.
THEY COULD DO MORE FOR ABORTION AND THE PRO-LIFE CAUSE IN ONE DAY THEN MANY COULD DO IN A LIFETIME.
The pastor of any church should realize that they are the leader the person that totally understands the significance of thinking like Christ. Its more than just modeling the pracitice and lip service. The pastor has to get it and give it to the church. Abortion is murder and millions are slaughtered every year. Who get the majority of abortions?.......CHRISTIAN WOMEN.....protestant women. And those women are attending churches all over this country. They need to be spoken too....we all do.

Someone is not getting it. Someone is not thinking like Christ. With high rates of abortions done .....this is one issue that should be somewhere near the top of a pastors agenda. Forget the resistance that some might feel.......pastors should stand on the word and call abortion what it is. God will bless them if they do.
We just totally dissagree on this.

reply from: carolemarie

I never once said God doen't think abortion is bad! God thinks all sin is bad, not just abortion, and hates it equally! And He calls His people out to fight sin
But God calls people and send them where He wants them. We each have different gifts and God has a unique plan for each life.
Rick Warren and his wife are amazing in what they have done for the battle in AIDS, here and in Africa. They deserve our prayers and support, not critism because they are not doing anything about abortion....

reply from: yoda

In my observations, being very popular does not mean that a minister is doing their "job" well. In fact, it may mean just the opposite, that they are simply telling people what they want to hear.
And many people just don't want to hear about abortion, so ministers that want to be popular just don't mention it. Popularity is not a gauge of rightness, morality, or purity.

reply from: churchmouse

Carole did I say they had not done wonderful things?
Lets just end this.......we dissagree you do not see what I am saying. Funny none of the mega pastors champion abortion,........they avoid it like the plague as most pastors do.
I totally agree.
I totally agree. That does not mean they dont do wonderful things in the name of God.......but abortion is a topic like no other.
Millions and millions of unborn children are slaughtered in this country. Our pastors.....especially our mega pastors have a duty to stand against abortion. I think they dont for many reasons.
www.nrlc.org/news/2002/NRL02/ernie1.html
"I don't think that the Church can afford to sit idly by cloaked under the umbrella of piousness - that's a disservice to the community and it is anti-scriptural," said Glenn. "Jesus was involved in issues in his day - he kicked the money changers out of the temple. And John the Baptist lost his head for speaking out against the moral depravity of his day."
dnronline.com
The fact is abortion is a fundamental issue today there is no denying this.
Rick Warren
Called "America's most influential spiritual leader" and "America's Pastor".
* Named one of America's Top 25 Leaders in the October 31, 2005 issue of U.S. News and World Report.
* Selected by TIME magazine:
* As one of 15 World Leaders Who Mattered Most in 2004.
* As one of the 100 Most Influential People in the World (2005).
His six books have been translated into over 50 languages.

He has spoken at...
The United Nations.
* The World Economic Forum in Davos.
* The African Union.
* The Council on Foreign Relations.
* Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.
* TIME's Global Health Summit.
Warren's humanitarian efforts have focussed on addressing what he calls the five Global Goliaths:
* Spiritual Emptiness.
* Egocentric Leadership.
* Extreme Poverty.
* Pandemic Diseases.
* Illiteracy and lack of education.
biblio.com
WHERE IS ABORTION? NOT EVEN LISTED.
Can you imagine the impact if he stood up even BRIEFLY AGAISNT ABORTION.
And Osteen well he admits he concentrates on the goodness of people and not on sin, so he would never get up and call abortion what it is. He calls himself more as a life coach......oh just what we need. Standing on the gospel?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, being a "feel good" cheerleader makes one very popular.... not like those mean old ministers who tell you what you're doing wrong, and takes you to task over it.....
Oh yeah...... I know that sort very well.

reply from: jujujellybean

You are condemning Paul Hill morally, so according to God...show me the sin.
Do you support our soldiers? Then why are you not in Iraq? Why? Put your money were your mouth is.
You've got to be kidding me! We can't support our soldiers unless we go out and fight with them? that is crazy! So an old man obviously doesn't support our soldiers because he isn't over there? My mom doesn't support our soldiers because she has a family that needs her here?

reply from: churchmouse

juju I dont understand really what you are really saying.

reply from: galen

Chm... if you dislike your church's ways so much... why not go find one more to your liking... or do you think that you can change them? I would understand your arguments more if you had a great many people there who felt as you do... but i don't hear that in your posts...if there are why not send a letter to your preacher/s and have evryone who agrees with you sign it?

reply from: joe

You are condemning Paul Hill morally, so according to God...show me the sin.
Do you support our soldiers? Then why are you not in Iraq? Why? Put your money were your mouth is.
You've got to be kidding me! We can't support our soldiers unless we go out and fight with them? that is crazy! So an old man obviously doesn't support our soldiers because he isn't over there? My mom doesn't support our soldiers because she has a family that needs her here?

reply from: churchmouse

galen said
Jesus told the disciples, "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you." This was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples. I believe it was on this day that the church began.
The church primarily is not a building its made up of those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, "On this rock I will build My church."
What did He mean? The rock is Christ......the church are those that follow Him. And there are followers all over the world. We all make up the Church.
So it is not necessarily one denomination that is the Church but those that believe and represent Christ to the world. The Church body does wonderful things for the faith. But IMO not enough concerning abortion. If they two believe that the life in the womb is equal to those born then they must do more. Millions are slaughtered a year.......not enough is done especially by the pastors that really could make a difference.
No church is perfect without flaws and errors. And no pastor, priest, elder, deacon is perfect either and must be held accountable to the Word. There are false prophets and we should watch closely the things we hear from our church leaders. We should make sure that what they say and do line up with what the Bible says.
Even Paul called the Bereans of "more noble character" because they examined "whether these things (what Paul taught) were so" through the lens of truth--the Word of God. He not only thanks them, but admonishes them to do so. He strongly invites and welcomes scrutiny from those in the church. What humility; what teachability; what accountability. Remember beloved, error never wants to be challenged; truth will always desire examination. (Cp, Galatians 1:6-9).
And like Paul these pastors should also encourage their flocks to examine what they say because they are held accountable for what they model and the way in they teach and lead. There are very specific qualifications for pastors elders and deacons within the church (cp, 1 Timothy 3:1-10).
Because I question Warren or Osteen I do not believe I am tearing the Church down.
You think I am talking about my specific church and I am not......I am talking about the Church as a whole.

reply from: churchmouse

A typical pagan answer.
Could you provide proof for your statement?

reply from: 4given

Join the Survivors as we bring the truth of abortion and the message of life to the presumed presidential candidates at theSaddleback Church Civil Forum!

Senators John McCain and Barack Obama, respective presumed Republican and Democratic presidential nominees, will end the primary season by making their first joint appearance of the 2008 campaign at Saddleback Church on Saturday, August 16 at pastor Rick Warren's Saddleback Civil Forum on Leadership and Compassion.

At the candidates' request, this two-hour event will be held in a non-debate format, and will be open to all media. Both candidates also requested that questions be posed exclusively by Warren rather than by a panel or members of the audience. Each candidate will converse separately with Warren for approximately an hour, beginning with Senator Obama, as determined by a coin toss.

The press release issued from Saddleback stated that 'questions will include four pressing issues that are bridging divides in our nation, such as poverty, HIV/AIDS, climate and human rights.'
According to the Saddleback Church website, the Saddleback Civil Forum series was 'established to promote civil discourse and the common good of all'. In addition, it also states that Rick Warren, the pastor of Saddleback Church, created the Civil Forums 'to help people accept responsibility, help the Church regain credibility, and encouraging our society to return to civility.'
What better topic to discuss in the forum, than abortion?

Why isn't it the issue listed in the 'four pressing issues'?

The common good of all. - Every year 1.3 million children are brutally murdered and denied the right to life. 1.3 million women are emotionally and physically scarred and 1.3 million men are denied the right to fatherhood. In addition, millions of brothers, sisters, parents, friends and family members are wounded and torn by the 'choice' of abortion every year. The devestating effects of abortion and the frequency with which it's performed more than qualifies as a mandatory topic to discuss when addressing, 'the common good of all'.

To help people accept responsibility. - The single greatest responsibility that should never be abandoned is the responsibility of being a parent. Wether that includes men and women finding a loving home their child or keeping him/her. But it should never be an option to murder a child for the sole purpose of abandoning responsibility. And then there is the responsibility of doctors and educators to fully inform women of the nature of the abortion procedure and the developement of the the unborn child. Again, the most appropriate topic to discuss pertaining to responsibility should be abortion.

Help the church regain credibility. The church will never regain credibility with God as long as it panders to the sinful whims of man. The Word of God is emphatically clear on how God views the act of destroying an innocent child in the womb. As the church, we must teach what the Bible says in no uncertain terms. As Christians, we will be held accountable, both in this life and the next, for how we deal with the issue of abortion, the genocide of our nation.

Encourage our society to return to civility. This one can almost go entirely without comment. Look at any picture of a mutilated child that is the victim of 'choice' and tell me what is 'civil' about it? Where is the civility in government funded public schools and college campuses when the simple biological facts of abortion are revealed for exactly what they are? The first step in returning to civility would be to end the barbaric murder of our generation.

Will you join the Survivors in bringing attention to the single greatest human rights issue facing our nation?

We want to bring a strong pro-life witness to the church community, the media and the nation at the Saddleback Civil Forum. It doesn't matter if you are a Suvivor of the Abortion Holocaust (born after 1973), or born after the American Holocaust began, please invite your friends and come join us in taking a stand for life!
Graphic signs will be provided.

When: 4:00pm to 7:00pm

Where: Meeting at the main entrance of Saddleback Church
1 Saddleback Parkway, Lake Forest, CA 92630

Not here. Although I would feel blessed to. Christian Outreach. Calvary Chapel.

reply from: churchmouse

Warren won't touch it.....this is one area where he just wont call abortion what it is. It is so so sad. It is tragic.
One of the biggest differences between the candidates......and it won't be touched. The biggest issue of our day, one that divides the country and....it wont be touched. What does that say about WArren and his agenda?
I have read nothing that even states abortion will be mentioned. Like climate is more important than child murder.
Thanks for that information by the way 4given.


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