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A CHRISTIAN discussion about abortion through Gods eyes.

A Christian Bible Study

by: churchmouse

This should not be a hate issue. Christ said love even your enemy. I hope Christians here can discuss this issue like Christ would want us to. We need to be equipped to talk to pro-choice Christians that believe God would condone abortion. This discussion it not about religion and Christianity. It is about God and abortion.
This discussion is for those that have accepted Christ as their personal Savior, believe he came and died for their sin, have repented, asked forgiveness and have acknowledged Christ publically.
I would like to say that I believe that the Bible does not become the Word of God; it already is the Word of God. I would hope we all could agree on that one. The Word can not be changed. We therefore are not here to change it we are here to study it. The Scripture is the Word of God, whether or not anybody even responds to it. We can open our minds and hearts to the Holy Spirit or we can let our hearts remained closed. Scripture only becomes meaningful to individuals when their hearts are open and illuminated by the Holy Spirit. It is my hope that Christians can open their hearts and really discuss this issue here.
Jesus asked Peter the question," Who do you say I am", and Peters immediate response was, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus then said," Blessed are you, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven" This scripture would mean nothing to someone who did not have the Holy Spirit inside Him. Nor would the scriptures have any meaning to someone who was not walking in the word. I believe there are many peope that do not walk in the Word that truly believe abortion is no sin against God.
I want to begin by posting these scriptures.
"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16
"Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
"Your word, O LORD, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens." Psalm 119:89
"Someone asked, 'Lord, will only a few be saved?' Jesus answered, 'Make every effort to enter through the narrow gate, because I tell you this: many will try to enter but will not be able to... For narrow is the gate, and narrow is the path which leads to Life, and few will find it (Luke 13:23,24; Matthew 7:14)."
Jesus said, "I am the Door [Gate]... by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved (John 10:9a)."
"'So how can we know the way?' Jesus answered, 'I am the Way [Path]'... (John 14:5,6)."
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
I hope we could agree that the previous scriptures are to be taken literally.
Lets study the Word and how it relates to abortion. Feel free to post any scriptures that you think are relevant. I'll start by posting these.
God speaks very clearly in the bible on the value of unborn children.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart." (Jeremiah 1:5)
"Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His" (Galatians 1:15)
"For you created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mothers womb...Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." Psalms 139;13-16
Now was God talking about a child that had been born or one still in the womb? And who does God say here is the creator? I think He said "I formed." So if He formed, then He is the creator, the owner. Do we have the right to kill that which God created?
How could any Christian believe that God would condone abortion after reading these?

reply from: Faramir

This post should win the award for being in the poorest taste.

reply from: realityfix

[URL=http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=obamaabortionrj1.jpg][IMG=http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/5041/obamaabortionrj1.th.jpg][/URL]
Postcard

reply from: churchmouse

WEll I see we are off to a good start. LOL
Not any Christians that are walking here?

reply from: churchmouse

Isa 44:24
"This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by my hand"
If God made you and me........if He made every created being, then did he not also created the unborn child in the womb?
So how can any Christian that stands on this scripture.......also be pro-abortion, pro-choice?
I would halenge them to find a scripture that says, God would not care about the life in the womb.

reply from: Hereforareason

Hello Churchmouse,
What a thread...interesting posts so far.
I agree that in discussing anything there should be civility at least on both sides. There are issues worth fighting for, but righteous anger is different from spewing hate. Anyone spewing hate hurts their cause.
To our new member......none of your verses applied to the question at hand. They are Old testament directions by God to wipe out wicked nations who had turned their backs on God again and again. Judgment, justice.
Amber

reply from: churchmouse

Concerned this disscusion isn't for debating whether God exists or not. It is for Christians that already believe in God. Believe that He sent Christ to die for our sins....believe that He rose from the dead.
Like I said, to a non Christian like yourself, scripture like you have indicated is a big whoop. To those that love God, that have opened their hearts to the Holy Spirit......it means something that you can't possibly as a non believer understand.
This is scriptural.
Did you just come in here to derail what I hoped to become a meaningful discussion? Why this one?
Are you a Christian Concerned?

reply from: galen

that would be admitting she wants to brainwash the rest...

reply from: Hereforareason

Excuse me, but she did say that this thread was for Christians (She laid out what she believed the word means) to discuss an issue. Do either of you Concerned or Galen have another definition of a Christian that you follow?
Concernedparent, the word abortion is not in the bible. The concept that God has created every living being and holds them in high regard is.
The commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is debated even in Christian circles. Taking the whole of the bible in context, this is what I believe God was commanding us. Do not murder in cold blood. God has shown that animals are for our food, therefore we are allowed to kill animals for food. (The responsibility of ruling over the animal kingdom is something else, I am not going there right now). There are obviously many wars in the bible, some of which we don't understand. War is what seems to be a necessary evil, but should not be the first choice. (Again, a deep topic we are not entering right now) So how about the times that God commanded Israel to wipe out entire nations? Start with the fact that many tried to wipe Israel out, and all of them were living in sin. God gave them many chances and decided it was time to wipe them out. Harsh? Seems to be. But God is not a cuddly teddy bear, he is a just judge who will punish all in the end. Anyway, back on topic now.
Abortion is the taking of an innocent life. It is not war, it is not self-defense. (What woman is so desperately ill, that she requires the blood of her child in order to live? She may need the baby removed from her womb, but why remove it dead?) It is a cold hearted act of violence against a precious child. "Yea, these things doth the Lord hate......hands that shed innocent blood".
I would love to continue the conversation, but I need to run for now. This topic was not started to debate Christianity, so if you want to do that start another thread please. This topic as created by Churchmouse is for Christians to compare notes and discuss abortion and the bible.
Have a great night everyone.
Amber

reply from: galen

Amber how many posts from Chm have you read lately... ?

reply from: Hereforareason

Galen,
I haven't. I just "got back" and have not read many posts yet. I am responding to the posts in this thread.
I am glad to see you are still here though Galen. I hope things are going well.
Amber

reply from: carolemarie

The whole law is Love the Lord you God with your whole heart, mind and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself.
I think your unborn child would count as a neighbor, and since we don't want to be killed, we shouldn't kill our child.

reply from: galen

________________________________________________
other than my brain tumour things are fine.
ChM has a weird take on christianity though... for instance she equates ectopic pregnancy with abortion...
so i'm not too fond of her.

reply from: Hereforareason

I'm sorry to hear about your brain tumor galen. Do you have surgery scheduled?
Miscarriages are also called abortions. Involuntary abortions. Is that what you mean?
Amber

reply from: galen

thanks .. i had surgery in February.. something called a gamma knife axed out most of the tumour and now i do radiation to get the rest of it.
Nope i mean that Chm has been trying to convince people that ectopic pregnacy removal is the same thing as a willful abortion. Because a woman saves her life by removing something that will kill her she thinks it the same as going to a clinic and having an abortion of convienence..
i feel she lords her religion over people to make them feel bad so she can comiserate with them. She has also had an abortion and i do not believe she has come to terms with what she has done and it taking it out on other posters.
She seems fixated on vexing and her genetic problem... she calls it a 'fetish'.. she is some piece of work.

reply from: yoda

Since only a tiny fraction of elective abortions have any medical justification, there is no moral similarity between the motives for a typical elective abortion and an ectopic pregnancy "removal".
One is an act of desperation, the other is an act of desecration.
Main Entry: des·e·crate Function: transitive verb
1 : to violate the sanctity of : profane <desecrate a shrine> 2 : to treat disrespectfully, irreverently, or outrageously
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=desecrate

reply from: churchmouse

I believe that the bible shows that God is not only the creator of children but a lover of children.
Of all the sins committed in the Old Testament, one stands out above the others in its utter abomination to God; the killing of children. Look up Levitucus 20......read what God says about the killing of children. Then read Proverbs 7, then 2 Kings 24.

reply from: Hereforareason

The abomination of children sacrifices is throughout the old testament. God hates it.
Churchmouse I am slightly confused by what Galen was saying about etopic pregnancies. What is your opinion on that?
Amber

reply from: churchmouse

That was your first sentence posted in here.
This discussion are for people that acknowledge God, Christ, Holy Spirit. Do you do that?
Of course it is......but there are a lot of topics. Why this one when you know clearly you do not fit what I wanted the discussion to be? What are your real motives here?
Your first sentence......questioned whether God exists.
I wanted a thread to discuss ways to get to the pro-choice Christian.
Thanks.
This thread is not for those that agree with me but want to do a deductive bible study on abortion. I DID NOT WRITE SCRIPTURE. I DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.
I use it to make points. What is wrong with that?
Well galen it didnt take you long to pop in did it? LOL
You that does not like to talk religion remember? LOL
Your comment here sums up what you really think Christianity is....brainwashing.
You think the Bible brainwashes people.
Thank you Hereforareason for saying this.
This was my intention. This is NOT TO DEBATE CHRISTIANITY. BUT TO LOOK AT SCRIPTURES TO SHOW ABORTION IS WRONG.
Galen you are here for one reason.....to stalk me, to cause division. That is your goal. You dont want to talk about abortion.
I never said that etopic was the same thing as abortion. Post where I said this? I did say however ectopic takes a life. Surgery is purposely done to stop life to save the mother. It must be done. I mentioned that my daughter had one last fall. We mourn the life taken. You think its nothing.......no life at all, which doesnt really surprise me. The surgery for an ectopic is willful.......to save the mothers life. The intention is different than abortion because in almost all cases it is done to save the mother. The mothers health is not involved with abortion. Nevertheless a life is taken in ectopic surgery, a life created in the image of God...I agree with what yoda said.

I use scripture to base lifes decisions on and you fault me for that because you obviously do not. I quote from the bible, you dont. You find fault with that too.
I dont use it to make people feel bad. If you do then you should take that up with God, it might be convicting you about some issue. It certainly did me at one point of my life. And thank God in Heaven that someone had the guts to point scripture out to me.
You are totally wrong about the abortion I had. I have come to terms after years and years of suffering. God saved me, He forgave me when I called out to Him. I was a sinner, I still am.....but I pray daily that I see what God wants me to do. And I believe my work with Right To Life, Silent No More....and taking the Great Commission seriously.......is what God wants me to do.
I killed my child there is no other way to say it. I asked God to forgive me. I was born again.......and today I have turned everything over to Him. His will is what I accept......I accept it whether I like what the Word says or not. It is not about what I think it is about what He thinks, what He says.
I have not taken anything out on posters here. You are the one with the sharp tongue.
I do not condone vexings lifestyle and for that you call me names and have followed me around bashing me at every opportunity.
I had my bible study pray for you and what you are going through, I dont hate you.......I have never called you or vexing names. You are the one that needs to come to terms with issues not me. You might not like my style......but I have done none of the things you accuse me of and my mouth cant compare to yours and vexings.
I was hoping that this discussion could be helpful, to equip Christians that want to use scriptures to influence those so called Christians that think life issues like abortion, is acceptable.
Why do you find fault with that?
Why does Concerned have a problem with that? He isnt even a believer and he makes his motives clear here.

He is here to mock God, the God that we love as Christians.

reply from: churchmouse

Intersting point Carole, never thought about it this way,,,,,the unborn as a neighbor.

reply from: galen

That was your first sentence posted in here.
This discussion are for people that acknowledge God, Christ, Holy Spirit. Do you do that?
Of course it is......but there are a lot of topics. Why this one when you know clearly you do not fit what I wanted the discussion to be? What are your real motives here?
Your first sentence......questioned whether God exists.
I wanted a thread to discuss ways to get to the pro-choice Christian.
Thanks.
This thread is not for those that agree with me but want to do a deductive bible study on abortion. I DID NOT WRITE SCRIPTURE. I DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.
I use it to make points. What is wrong with that?
Well galen it didnt take you long to pop in did it? LOL
You that does not like to talk religion remember? LOL
Your comment here sums up what you really think Christianity is....brainwashing.
You think the Bible brainwashes people.
Thank you Hereforareason for saying this.
This was my intention. This is NOT TO DEBATE CHRISTIANITY. BUT TO LOOK AT SCRIPTURES TO SHOW ABORTION IS WRONG.
Galen you are here for one reason.....to stalk me, to cause division. That is your goal. You dont want to talk about abortion.
I never said that etopic was the same thing as abortion. Post where I said this? I did say however ectopic takes a life. Surgery is purposely done to stop life to save the mother. It must be done. I mentioned that my daughter had one last fall. We mourn the life taken. You think its nothing.......no life at all, which doesnt really surprise me. The surgery for an ectopic is willful.......to save the mothers life. The intention is different than abortion because in almost all cases it is done to save the mother. The mothers health is not involved with abortion. Nevertheless a life is taken in ectopic surgery, a life created in the image of God...I agree with what yoda said.

I use scripture to base lifes decisions on and you fault me for that because you obviously do not. I quote from the bible, you dont. You find fault with that too.
I dont use it to make people feel bad. If you do then you should take that up with God, it might be convicting you about some issue. It certainly did me at one point of my life. And thank God in Heaven that someone had the guts to point scripture out to me.
You are totally wrong about the abortion I had. I have come to terms after years and years of suffering. God saved me, He forgave me when I called out to Him. I was a sinner, I still am.....but I pray daily that I see what God wants me to do. And I believe my work with Right To Life, Silent No More....and taking the Great Commission seriously.......is what God wants me to do.
I killed my child there is no other way to say it. I asked God to forgive me. I was born again.......and today I have turned everything over to Him. His will is what I accept......I accept it whether I like what the Word says or not. It is not about what I think it is about what He thinks, what He says.
I have not taken anything out on posters here. You are the one with the sharp tongue.
I do not condone vexings lifestyle and for that you call me names and have followed me around bashing me at every opportunity.
I had my bible study pray for you and what you are going through, I dont hate you.......I have never called you or vexing names. You are the one that needs to come to terms with issues not me. You might not like my style......but I have done none of the things you accuse me of and my mouth cant compare to yours and vexings.
I was hoping that this discussion could be helpful, to equip Christians that want to use scriptures to influence those so called Christians that think life issues like abortion, is acceptable.
Why do you find fault with that?
Why does Concerned have a problem with that? He isnt even a believer and he makes his motives clear here.

He is here to mock God, the God that we love as Christians.
_____________________________________________________________
your religion is not christianity... it is biased and self centred brainwashing... you don't even follow your own rantings very well.
Guess what . unless you close the thread i'll keep posting here as long as i like. You complain when people are intollerant to you but you want to have them accept you with open arms . Guess what... that's not how life works dearie.
maybe you should have thought about that before you started making 'lifestyle' choices yourself.
If you had the brain God gave a planaria you would understand that vexing's condition was given to her by GOD. and GOD gave us a brain to understand it... seems to me that you are sinning just as much as anyone here.. so why not get off your high horse and act like someone with a bit of humility.
Your vanity and pride are a sin.. almost as great as the sin you did to your child.

reply from: galen

don't feel too bad.. i'm not doing anything to you that i have not done to FM.
your great bedfellows.

reply from: churchmouse

See you dont get it still. Its NOT ABOUT RELIGION. ITS ALL ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP, THE RELATIONSHIP ONE HAS WITH CHRIST.
You go ahead mary and continue doing what you are doing. It really shows that you are one that does not practice what she teaches. I wont use preach here since you do not like to post scripture.
I am sick of talking about vexings situation. I dont care what he/she/it is, a filthy and violent mouth is involved.
You have attacked me simply because I challenged his gender and your stance on doctor assisted suicide. I wont cave in on either one and base my decision on scripture. One thing that you wont do. You certainly will site medical sites but cant seem to find a bible to even look or care about what God says. Why?
Its obvious that it isnt that important to you. I have admitted my grave sin. And you mock me for it. No Christian would ever do that. You are lukewarm at best if any, because you do not show anything Christian here. Your mouth is proof of that.
If anyone puts hersef on a pedestal here mary its you. your the authority on everything........medicine, life, religion. and God forbid if anyone challenges you. I didnt read however in any rules on the forum that you were it, not to be challeneged.
I am a sinner saved only by the grace of God. I have said this numerous times. Do you even know what that means mary?
You think you are the only one here with a disease,cancer, a physical problem?

reply from: galen

i know what YOU think it means.. .
you present yourself in a holier than thou attitude about everything... you ooze insincerity.
i do not mock you in the least.. only a guilt conscience would have interprete what i said as that.. i could have been talking about ANY of your children.
you tell people they will go to hell and all sorts of other things if they do not believe the way you do.. what makes you so sure you've got it right?
you reminde me of the TV evangelicals who state thier sins on national TV in order to rake in more $$. you do not rake in $$ but 'converts'. However those who convert to a false belief sytem ( yours not Christs) are soon handed the towel to wipe the mud from thier eyes.. not only will thier conversion cease, but you will end up with someone who believes NOTHING and that all Christians are liars.
You do yourself and Christ a disservice.
there are non so radical as those newly converted to the cause...someone wise said this. I personally think its true.

reply from: churchmouse

Carol have you ever read Randy Alcorns book, PRO-LIFE ANSWERS TO PROCHOICE ARGUMENTS?
He has a section devoted to Abortion in the bible and Church history.
He says that "thoughout the scriptures, personhood is never measured by age, stage of development, mental, physical or social skills. Personhodd is endowed by God at the moment of creation-before which there was not a human being and afer which there is. That moment of creation is conception.
He also mentioned, which I find interesting that the Hebrews did not have a separate word for unborn children. the word they used was "yeled". That meant a child in the womb or out of the womb. So in the Bible there is NOT a reference to a potential child. That which was in the womb was considered a child.
I glanced over the book of Job last night. Read Job 10:8-12
Job graphically describes how God created him BEFORE he was born. The person in the womb wasn't something that might become Job but was something that was Job.
Isaiah 44:2
"This is what the LORD says -
he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant,
Jeshurun, whom I have chosen."

reply from: galen

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Mohandas Gandhi

reply from: nancyu

churchmouse, this is a statement comes from a filthy violent mouth. Why would you treat a person with such utter disrespect. To refer to Vexing as an "it" is terribly hateful. If you're going to call others hateful (me, for instance) you'd better be getting your own house in order first.

reply from: churchmouse

"churchmouse, this is a statement comes from a filthy violent mouth. Why would you treat a person with such utter disrespect. To refer to Vexing as an "it" is terribly hateful. If you're going to call others hateful (me, for instance) you'd better be getting your own house in order first."
And your right I shouldnt have used, "it". I spoke in haste.
I do however feel that vexing is a he and I wont cave on that one. But he cant accept that. Galen cant accept me stating that either.
You know nancy........do you ever call the other out? galen? vexing? concerned?
Just curious?

reply from: carolemarie

I read Alcorns book a long time ago. He is a good writer and I love the Eternal Perspectives Website. Really very well done and good.
My whole position on abortion is that I am prolife because there is a God.
If I didn't believe in God I would be prochoice, because ultimately nothing would matter.
Satan comes to kill, steal and destroy and that is a pretty good description of abortion.

reply from: galen

just for the record nancy and i have gotten into it a couple of times.. but we made up.
She at least knows common curtesy and if we don't agree on something we can chat nicely..

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Before I was Christian, I certainly did not believe I had "nothing" to live for. Life was full of things to live for. Christians are not the only people in the entire universe with something to live for. That's rather arrogant of you to assume.

reply from: Faramir

It's "common courtesy" to call a fellow prolifer a "scum"? To tell a girl to "take a long walk off a short pier?"
If that's courtesy, I would hate to see rudeness.

reply from: galen

nancy has been rather nice as of late... yu probably havn't noticed.. she's even being nice to vexing.. thats a step forward not back.

reply from: Faramir

You mean that she just started practicing common courtesy?
If so, it might take me awhile to notice it.
A really good and noticeable start would to make some apologies.

reply from: galen

i haven't seen you do so in her case either.. why don't the 2 of you call it quits..?

reply from: Faramir

I will point out her abusiveness when I see it. Not every time. Just after it adds up for awhile or if it's particularly outrageous.
She doesn't owe ME any apology, btw.

reply from: faithman

You mean that she just started practicing common courtesy?
If so, it might take me awhile to notice it.
A really good and noticeable start would to make some apologies.
She just doesn't care to waist time with the resident girly man. She is too busy doing real pro-life work in real time. Why waist time giving an idiot the time of day when there are babies to save?

reply from: carolemarie

Really....that hasn't been my experience with her at all.....perhaps it is a different NancyU?

reply from: galen

nope i really had at it with her about a month ago.. over you in fact... she's been much nicer lately.

reply from: Faramir

Really....that hasn't been my experience with her at all.....perhaps it is a different NancyU?
Maybe she had a recent conversion.
Who knows?
Miracles CAN happen.
I eagerly await the posts of the new and improved nancyu!

reply from: carolemarie

I am not sure this was to me, cause I didn't say I had nothing to live for, just that I would be pro-choice if I didn't believe in God, because nothing would ultimately matter.
If all we have is the here and now, then making yourself happy is the ultimate end of existence, however that pans out for you....That was my philosophy back before I found God.

reply from: yoda

And isn't that also true of most major religions as well?

reply from: yoda

That, to me, is a really sad, sad statement. Lots of things "matter" to those who have no widely accepted "God concept". Your claim to know the mind of everyone who doesn't fit with your belief system reeks of elitism. Whether or not one believes in God has nothing to do with whether they have a conscience. The two things are not interlocked. And a conscience is all that is needed to oppose baby killing.
How you felt about things before your conversion to Christianity has nothing, nothing at all to do with how non-Christians may feel. You are projecting your own emotions onto others without any justification for doing so.

reply from: carolemarie

???
Don't try to read into what I say, because you are getting it wrong, I probably am not explaining it well, but I will try again.
If there is no God, then nothing really matters. If you don't like the term God use higher power or a standard setter if you rather.
Without God, or a Higher Power, my personal feelings and opinions are what I live by. I set the standard. My standards can change, based on my feelings and opinions and reasoning.
You can set your standard that unborn babies matter and I can my standard that they don't. Everything becomes subjective and we pass laws to reflect what we collectively agree on. If more of us agree that unborn children don't have the same rights as born people, then we can pass laws to reflect that. That becomes the new standard. What standard can you use to measure the correctness of an action if is based subjective standards.
With God, He sets the standard and it doesn't matter what I personally think about it. I have to conform my thinking to the standard...

reply from: yoda

Sure it does. A conscience doesn't depend upon any outside power. Did you not have a conscience before your conversion?
Your own conscience can be your standard. There are many, many non Christian prolifers, do you dismiss all of them as phony?
We can defeat abortion supporters by changing public opinion. And we don't need to make the prolife movement a private club, that can be done by anyone who opposes abortion.

reply from: faithman

... And yet you choose to fight the standard that womb children are persons and equal to born persons. You "subject" us to your killer opinion on a reagular basis. If a womb child is a person, then the same laws that govern their protection, and bring their killers to justice are the same. You dishopnor the God you claim set the standard, by saying that standard should be bent in favor of letting killers walk free, having paid for the death of an innocent child. Just what does "justice for all" mean? Just what was God saying in Genesis 9:6? It is high time you take your own sermon seriously before you pontificate to others. But I guess you are privaleged, and don't have to adhere to the standards you advocate for everyone else huh?

reply from: galen

you know FM.. i'm going to point out something to you.. you are a disabled vet right?
so why are you any less of a killer than carole? why must you pepper everything with that over and over ad nauseum..
you could possibly be more effective without it.
she is no longer a 'killer' as she has converted her stance..
anymore than YOU are a killer for what you may or may not have done in the military long ago.
just my 2 cents.. that and 50 more may get you a cup of coffee.. unless you like starbucks.

reply from: yoda

Anyone who has killed another human being IS a killer, and always will be. That cannot be changed, because it refers to the past, which cannot be changed.
While it may be distasteful to constantly remind someone of their past, it is not inaccuracy that makes it distasteful. It is distasteful only if they have seen the error of their wicked ways and have changed their lives so that they are no longer living as they formerly did.

reply from: galen

ok maybe you put it more clearly... but it seems FM is going on a bit much about this...of course maybe he enjoys being called a killer.. IDK...

reply from: Faramir

All existence and any powers a human being has depends on an outside power.
To a Christian or even to a theist who is not a Christian, the conscience comes from God and there is no conscience without God.
A conversion does not make God exist. God and the conscience preceed the conversion, so a nonbeliever who listens to his conscience is listening to God.
But that's all from a Christian perspective and it makes sense for a Christian to see that there is nothing without God, and the apostle Paul made similar comments.
But I agree that atheists, agnostics and those of all faiths or no faith at all can embrace the prolife cause. Christians do not have a monopoly on it. But the Christian does see all of life in the light of God, and if there were no God, so it is natural for a Christian to have little regard for any system of values without a God behind it all, since all would return to dust one day and that would be it.

reply from: yoda

Jerry Lee Lewis was called "Killer" most of his life.... and some say he earned it later in life.
We each have our own ways of dealing with what we see as deception in others. My way is to ask very pointed questions. Most of them don't get answered, but at least I have put them out there.

reply from: Faramir

He could be MUCH more effective without it.
He does a disservice to himself and the prolife cause by presenting himself as an abusive internet man.
He loses all credibility, except with those who enjoy his apparent hatefulness, or who can somehow see past it.
If he's truly a nice guy who really loves the babies, I wish he would not pretend to be a *blankety blank blank, etc.* It's hard to believe there is any love for anyone or anything, with all that "ad nauseum" coming out.

reply from: Faramir

What yodavater did was show approval (in his usual sneaky and underhanded way) of faithman's abusive comments that would never be tolerated on a board where there were some rules of civility.

reply from: yoda

4 score, and 7 years ago........

reply from: faithman

He could be MUCH more effective without it.
He does a disservice to himself and the prolife cause by presenting himself as an abusive internet man.
He loses all credibility, except with those who enjoy his apparent hatefulness, or who can somehow see past it.
If he's truly a nice guy who really loves the babies, I wish he would not pretend to be a *blankety blank blank, etc.* It's hard to believe there is any love for anyone or anything, with all that "ad nauseum" coming out.
Who said I was pretending? and Who said that a blankety blank blank ect.* can not be an effective Pro-lifer? I could really care less what you think. You have proven to me that you are pro-life in name only. Even yoda whole claims to be eggnostic, use the cards with no prob because of the scriptures on back. But any excuse for inactivity will do when you are looking for one.

reply from: yoda

Hey!! I resemble that remark!! Is that some kind of "YOKE"??????

reply from: sander

Hey!! I resemble that remark!! Is that some kind of "YOKE"??????
You have no idea how much I needed that laugh!

reply from: carolemarie

Sure it does. A conscience doesn't depend upon any outside power. Did you not have a conscience before your conversion?
Your own conscience can be your standard. There are many, many non Christian prolifers, do you dismiss all of them as phony?
We can defeat abortion supporters by changing public opinion. And we don't need to make the prolife movement a private club, that can be done by anyone who opposes abortion.
I didn't say that you couldn't be prolife if you didn't believe in God. That is your interpertation, not what I said.
You can be anything you want, prolife or prochoice because you are the one who decided your own position. It is subjective in that it isn't imposed on you. You come to believe that position. Just like those who are prochoice, their reason and feelings lead them to believe that they are right.
Or as the bible puts it "everyone doing what was right in his own eyes."
Since this thread was about Christian biblical positions, I was giving Chm mine.
I would still be prochoice if I wasn't a Christian. Because even if I regretted those decisions, I wouldn't say that someone else couldn't feel different, or shouldn't have an abortion. It would be up to them to determine what they believe.
But, for me, believing in God makes the difference. It doesn't matter what I think, it only matters what God thinks about it. He sets the standard for me, I don't reason my way into it. Giving up my will and replacing it with Gods. So if God finds unborn children's lives to matter, I have to agree with that. And if I agree with God, I can't sit on the sidelines while children die and their mothers and fathers are deceived.
That same God forbides me to be hateful to prochoicers, to demonize those who disagree and appluade the murder of abortion providers. Once again, it is His standard, not mine that I have to follow.

reply from: carolemarie

Sure it does. A conscience doesn't depend upon any outside power. Did you not have a conscience before your conversion?
Your own conscience can be your standard. There are many, many non Christian prolifers, do you dismiss all of them as phony?
sorry double post

reply from: GratiaPlena

Hey!! I resemble that remark!! Is that some kind of "YOKE"??????
You have no idea how much I needed that laugh!
LOL that made me smile too

reply from: yoda

No belief is ever "imposed" on anyone. Everyone chooses what to believe.
Pardon me, but that is the strangest position I've ever seen a prolifer take. IF you were not Christian, would you be prochoice on child sex abuse (assuming it was legal, of course)? What if the pedophiles FELT DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU about abusing a child? Wouldn't your permissive attitude force you to allow them to abuse children IF they believed "differently than you"? Wouldn't you be for allowing murder, rape, and anything else as long as someone felt differently than you? Isn't that what you're saying you would feel about the behavior of others, IF you weren't Christian?
JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE "BELIEVES" a certain way is NO REASON to allow them to harm or kill innocent children!! We as a society have NO OBLIGATION to allow anyone to harm anyone else in the name of "BELIEF". Christian or not, no decent person would give their permission for the killing of innocent unborn babies to be legal, IMO.
Nowhere in the history of civilization has any nation allowed everyone to act totally according to their "beliefs". That would be anarchy. Or do you simply put abortion in a different class than other acts of aggression against the innocent?
Indeed? Then why on earth do so many Christians say that God thinks some other way? Why do some of them say that abortion is "okay with God"? How is it that ONLY YOU seem to know what God actually says? Are you in direct contact with God yourself? Can you hear him speak to you in English? Do you write down his actual words? Can you share that with us?

reply from: carolemarie

That is what I said. It is your opinion.
Someone else may have a different one.

reply from: yoda

Ah yes..... but YOU SAID that as a "non-Christian", YOU would ALLOW such perverts to do WHATEVER they wanted to.......
And I'm telling you that is NOT NORMAL, even for us non-Christians...
That's just as perverted as the perverts themselves!!

reply from: carolemarie

I NEVER said that. I wasn't talking about perverts, I responded to the part of your post that I quoted.
Quit trying to twist my words into something I didn't say. Try responding to what I actually say.....

reply from: Faramir

Everything I could find leads to the definition that a "killer" is "one who kills."
That is the present and not that past.
Someone who no longer kills is no longer a killer, especially a postabortive woman who regrets her abortions and is now saving babies.
Nice try, though.

reply from: yoda

I NEVER said that. I wasn't talking about perverts, I responded to the part of your post that I quoted...
What's wrong, can't you follow along when I introduce a new element into the conversation? Can't you keep up with what I'm saying?
I'm suggesting that child abuse is a perfect parallel to the abortion discussion, and you're complaining that YOU didn't introduce child abuse? Why can't you keep up with this train of thought?
YOUR stated principle is that IF you were not a Christian, you would allow others to do as they please, including abortion AND (by logical extension) child abuse. After all, other than legality, there's really no difference between abortion and child abuse, is there? Except that the latter always kills the child, and the former only sometimes kills the child, right?
And I (not you) am suggesting that YOUR stated principle is NOT NORMAL for ANYONE, Christian or otherwise. It is anarchy, plain and simple. And that's not decent, that's not normal.

reply from: yoda

I sure wish Terry would hurry up.......

reply from: sander

He's going to be very busy today.
JC was reported too.

reply from: faithman

Hey!! I resemble that remark!! Is that some kind of "YOKE"??????
Scrambled I believe.....

reply from: faithman

Everything I could find leads to the definition that a "killer" is "one who kills."
That is the present and not that past.
Someone who no longer kills is no longer a killer, especially a postabortive woman who regrets her abortions and is now saving babies.
Nice try, though.
She is still a killer, as what she advocates is just as deadly to the womb child as the abortions she has had.

reply from: faithman

I NEVER said that. I wasn't talking about perverts, I responded to the part of your post that I quoted...
What's wrong, can't you follow along when I introduce a new element into the conversation? Can't you keep up with what I'm saying?
I'm suggesting that child abuse is a perfect parallel to the abortion discussion, and you're complaining that YOU didn't introduce child abuse? Why can't you keep up with this train of thought?
YOUR stated principle is that IF you were not a Christian, you would allow others to do as they please, including abortion AND (by logical extension) child abuse. After all, other than legality, there's really no difference between abortion and child abuse, is there? Except that the latter always kills the child, and the former only sometimes kills the child, right?
And I (not you) am suggesting that YOUR stated principle is NOT NORMAL for ANYONE, Christian or otherwise. It is anarchy, plain and simple. And that's not decent, that's not normal.
but you have to understand, the world revolves around, and the sun wouldn't shine without killer carole.

reply from: carolemarie

I NEVER said that. I wasn't talking about perverts, I responded to the part of your post that I quoted...
What's wrong, can't you follow along when I introduce a new element into the conversation? Can't you keep up with what I'm saying?
I'm suggesting that child abuse is a perfect parallel to the abortion discussion, and you're complaining that YOU didn't introduce child abuse? Why can't you keep up with this train of thought?
YOUR stated principle is that IF you were not a Christian, you would allow others to do as they please, including abortion AND (by logical extension) child abuse. After all, other than legality, there's really no difference between abortion and child abuse, is there? Except that the latter always kills the child, and the former only sometimes kills the child, right?
And I (not you) am suggesting that YOUR stated principle is NOT NORMAL for ANYONE, Christian or otherwise. It is anarchy, plain and simple. And that's not decent, that's not normal.
By ignoring your premise, you should have caught on that I didn't agree with you. I do not think abortion and child abuse are the same thing. They are not.
That is why I ignored that post and responded to the portion that was germane to the discussion. I see no point in letting you set up your strawman arguments and defending a position that I don't believe.
What I said was that if there was no God, then I would still be prochoice. If the prochoice premise is true, that human life isn't special, that we are not created, we are evolved, that this life is all there is, then you choose what you decide to believe. You can work to protect the unborn or work to keep abortion legal and women with options. You can deny global warming or you can believe in it.
The truth is what your reasoning and feelings show you. You can be prolife or prochoice. I am not disputing that.
I said that if there wasn't a God I would be prochoice. Why that is suprising to you is beyond me. I was prochoice before I became a Christian.
Once you become a Christian, you are to submit your will to His and conform your thoughts to His.
It is a very simple concept.

reply from: faithman

I NEVER said that. I wasn't talking about perverts, I responded to the part of your post that I quoted...
What's wrong, can't you follow along when I introduce a new element into the conversation? Can't you keep up with what I'm saying?
I'm suggesting that child abuse is a perfect parallel to the abortion discussion, and you're complaining that YOU didn't introduce child abuse? Why can't you keep up with this train of thought?
YOUR stated principle is that IF you were not a Christian, you would allow others to do as they please, including abortion AND (by logical extension) child abuse. After all, other than legality, there's really no difference between abortion and child abuse, is there? Except that the latter always kills the child, and the former only sometimes kills the child, right?
And I (not you) am suggesting that YOUR stated principle is NOT NORMAL for ANYONE, Christian or otherwise. It is anarchy, plain and simple. And that's not decent, that's not normal.
By ignoring your premise, you should have caught on that I didn't agree with you. I do not think abortion and child abuse are the same thing. They are not.
That is why I ignored that post and responded to the portion that was germane to the discussion. I see no point in letting you set up your strawman arguments and defending a position that I don't believe.
What I said was that if there was no God, then I would still be prochoice. If the prochoice premise is true, that human life isn't special, that we are not created, we are evolved, that this life is all there is, then you choose what you decide to believe. You can work to protect the unborn or work to keep abortion legal and women with options. You can deny global warming or you can believe in it.
The truth is what your reasoning and feelings show you. You can be prolife or prochoice. I am not disputing that.
I said that if there wasn't a God I would be prochoice. Why that is suprising to you is beyond me. I was prochoice before I became a Christian.
Once you become a Christian, you are to submit your will to His and conform your thoughts to His.
It is a very simple concept.
If it is SSSSOOoo simple, when are you going to do it? All I have seen is some one using God as a patsy to excuse evil, and chery pick His word to produce a bastard gospel that does not come anywhere near the truth.

reply from: carolemarie

Blah Blah Blah....Faithman again complaining that someone doesn't agree with his prodeath viewpoint or every point of a bill he likes.

reply from: revkev

Has anyone here listened to Keith Green lately. He speaks the truth in 2008 even though he was killed in a plane crash in 1982. I cannot help but think and pray for every woman that is considering an abortion today. There is a real live baby forming in her womb, a place designed to be a safe haven for nurture and growth. I know a christian couple that 12 years ago found themselves in an abortion clinic about to abort what would be their 4th child. They had been through so many medical issues with their 3rd child, that is caused them to file bankruptcy. Thus, fear gripped them when they found out she was pregnant. They didn't think they could bear to go through all that again. There they say in the clinic, and this eerie feeling of death overshadowed them. It made them so uncomfortable that they got up and left. Now their 12 year old son, who is healthy as can be, is a shining example of what "could've been killed" inside of her. God's word clearly talks about the wickedness of shedding innocent blood. What could be more innocent than a newly conceived baby in the womb? It is simple common sense to know that it is evil and sin. If any person considering abortion simply was honest with themselves, they would recognize it.

reply from: sander

Welcome to the forum, revkev.
Honesty seems to be the thing over-looked in so many ways in the abortion debate. Honesty was shelved in the beginning and remains there to this day. The so called, "right" was contrived thru dishonest measures. The old saying of "tell a lie often enough" ....seems to fit.

reply from: revkev

That is the problem with everyone in general, people have allowed dishonesty to be an acceptable practice, as long as it doesn't hurt "me". We cannot continue to look the other way while the residents of the womb are getting slaughtered. If we saw a child getting ripped apart limb by limb, I don't think there is anyone on this forum that wouldn't do something to help that child. Abortion isn't removing a growth, it is ending a life that has already begun. INNOCENT HELPLESS LIFE. And if the pro-chiocers would be HONEST. it is for the most part, for convenience. They will not give your child a motrin in school without telling you, but they will let them go through a lifethreatening surgical procedure without alerting you, the parent? We have lost every bit of wisdom and scruples we ever had to think this is logical and correct. Honor thy father and thy mother, for this is the first commandment with a promise, that it might be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. Parents, especially dads, please develop a close relationship with your daughters, so she will always feel free to communicate with you. Encourage abstinence until marraige, not handing out paraphenilia that will encourage promiscuity. I could go on, but I won't.

reply from: revkev

Thanks for the welcome Galen and Sander.

reply from: yoda

That has to be the stupidest argument this week.......
killer Show phonetics
noun [C]
1 someone who kills another person:
Police are still hoping to find the dead woman's killer.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=43647&dict=CALD

Do you suppose they should have said "the police are still hoping to find the dead woman's used to be killer but isn't any more?"
What an idiotic statement.......

reply from: yoda

1. They don't have to be "the same thing" for the comparison to be valid. Any crime of violence will do, don't you understand the concept of "categories"? Can't you process similarities in an argument?
2. Are you then saying that child abuse is "worse than" abortion?
Then how do you explain so many non-Christian prolifers? What's wrong with us? Why are we able to see the horror of abortion, but you don't think you could "without Christianity"?

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, revkev.
Exactly. I've seen proaborts actually try to dispute that an unborn baby is "innocent", even when I posted a linked definition to prove the validity of the usage. There is no limit to their depravity.

reply from: revkev

Glad to be a part of the forum Yodavater.

reply from: nancyu

I would like to welcome you, too revkev. Another voice in defense of the unborn, always, very welcome.

reply from: Faramir

That has to be the stupidest argument this week.......
killer Show phonetics
noun [C]
1 someone who kills another person:
Police are still hoping to find the dead woman's killer.
http://dictionary.cambridge.or...43647&dict=CALD
<br ">http://dictionary.camb....or.....7&dict=CALD
Do you suppose they should have said "the police are still hoping to find the dead woman's used to be killer but isn't any more?"
What an idiotic statement.......
"kills" is present tense.
If someone has stopped killing or is no longer a threat to kill, she is no longer a killer.
So you really have no basis in calling a post abortive woman who regrets her abortions and who is fighting to save babies, a "killer," no matter how much you want to rub it in or justify others, like your buddy and fellow bully faithman, who relishes in rubbing it in.

reply from: galen

i want to know if they pick on CM why can't they pick on ChM.. she has admitted to an abortion too...
and uses it to justify her behaviour twards others..

reply from: Faramir

Well maybe yoda, faithman, and nancy have not yet discovered the juicy new meat. And if they leave churchmouse alone for whatever reason, it doesn't justify their bullying of carolemarie.

reply from: galen

did i say that?
no

reply from: carolemarie

1. They don't have to be "the same thing" for the comparison to be valid. Any crime of violence will do, don't you understand the concept of "categories"? Can't you process similarities in an argument?
2. Are you then saying that child abuse is "worse than" abortion?
Then how do you explain so many non-Christian prolifers? What's wrong with us? Why are we able to see the horror of abortion, but you don't think you could "without Christianity"?
I am not going to discuss child abuse. I am talking about abortion.
I see no similarities and I don't accept your premises as valid.
I told you that if you were a non-Christian you could support either position, prolife or prochoice. It would be a matter of personal POV.
You chose which you support based on human reasoning.
I have my POV imposed on me when I became a Christian. I didn't get to pick and chose what I support or believe. God sets the standard, not me.


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