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Made in the USA

This is my one forray into a "diversionay" subject

by: yoda

An old friend asked me where he could find some tools made in America yesterday. So, I did a little research, and found several websites that cater to patriotic Americans who want to buy American stuff in general, and here is a list of my best results:
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/ [/a]
http://usaproducts.info/ [/a]
http://www.americansworking.com/index.html [/a]
http://www.americansworking.com/index.html [/a]
http://www.madeinusa.org/ [/a]
http://www.usab2c.com/ [/a]
http://www.aapromo.com/index.html [/a]
http://www.usstuff.com/ [/a]
http://www.itsmadeinusa.com/ [/a]
http://www.itsmadeinusa.com/ [/a]
http://www.madeinusaproductstore.com/ [/a]
http://www.madeinusacertified.com/cms/component [/a]
http://eagleamerica.com/category.asp?c=243908&c2c=sc& [/a]
http://www.unionlabel.com/ [/a]
http://www.bestamericanbuy.com/cart/ [/a]
http://www.bestamericanbuy.com/cart/ [/a]
http://www.allamericanclo...om/products.php [/a]
http://www.theunionshop.org/ [/a]
http://www.cedarstream.com/ [/a]
http://www.pointerbrand.com/?OVRAW=made%20in%20usa& [/a]
http://www.oreck.com/?keycode=DH087 [/a]
http://www.nbwebexpress.com/browse.asp?list=usa&s1=YSM&s2=NBWE+Non&s3=made+in+usa [/a]

reply from: cracrat

For a man so fascinated with the dictionary, you'd have thought Yoda'd know what words mean. Forray is the act of pillaging/ravaging. Foray is a venture into something new.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Thanks, Yoda! I'm doing my best to avoid foreign-made goods.

reply from: yoda

YW. I guess patriotism isn't too far fetched for this forum....... ?

reply from: sk1bianca

i'm a patriot to when it comes to buying things. especially food and shoes.

reply from: galen

thx for the links yoda..

reply from: sander

Food? Seriously? US food is really bad quality compared to most imported food.
Next you're going to tell me you think star bucks makes good coffee!!!
No, I'm going to tell you that Star Bucks supports PP, now how does it taste?

reply from: yoda

Here's a suggestion: Don't eat it, then.

reply from: sander

Here's a suggestion: Don't eat it, then.
But, then she coldn't complain about it.

reply from: cracrat

Food? Seriously? US food is really bad quality compared to most imported food.
Next you're going to tell me you think star bucks makes good coffee!!!
No, I'm going to tell you that Star Bucks supports PP, now how does it taste?
Isn't StarBucks in the process of collapsing though?

reply from: 4given

I favor Starbucks. I have yet to find a dark roast I like as much.. and yes- they are closing 600 stores.
Xena- sk1bianca lives in Romania. Maybe the food is better there?

reply from: Faramir

But it's not UNpatriotic to buy the best value for the best price, regardless of whether it has been imported.

reply from: sander

Love Starbucks dark roast too, 4Given. I miss it!
Wow, 600 stores! See, told them they shouldn't support PP.

reply from: Faramir

Food? Seriously? US food is really bad quality compared to most imported food.
Next you're going to tell me you think star bucks makes good coffee!!!
Someone from Russia told me the same thing--that the food here has no flavor.
I buy Starbucks sometimes because it's "tolerable" and I know what to expect, but I woudn't say it's "good."

reply from: yoda

The message of this thread is plain and simple.... if you're an American, BUY AMERICAN......
And if you're not...... bugger off!

reply from: Faramir

If you're an American, buy the best deal you can get.
There is nothing UNAmerican about buying goods or services from people in other countries.
My Toyota has outlasted my Ford BY FAR. I MIGHT buy a Ford next time, since I have heard they have made some improvements, but if I can get the best deal on a Toyota, and if it lasts longer, then I will support a Japanese automobile maker and I am no less an American for doing so. And with the extra funds I have from paying less for gas and repairs, I can buy American items I might not have been able to otherwise.
If you're reading this thread and you're not an American, I apologize for the rudeness of my fellow American. You're welcome here and in our country.

reply from: Faramir

Here's some food for thought about the free market system and the foolishness of only buying American (though that's impossible anyway). I don't agree 100% with this article, but mostly I do, and it makes some excellent points as to why it is most American to buy the best product for the best price. It is American to support the free market.
http://]http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_buy_american</end]http://www.aynrand.org/site/Pa...tivism_buy_americanhttp://]http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_buy_american</end[/L] quot[/L]

reply from: Faramir

Well apparently you decided the latter just now, nothing at the beginning of the thread suggests this!
He should be praising you for not being an American but still buying American.
It's really silly and somewhat insulting to American manufacturers and workers to think we would have to go out of our way to prop up American business. I have faith we can provide the best products and services and we should look for those first, and expect that Americans make them.
If they don't, then there's nothing wrong with buying a shovel made by a man in India. If the best tools are made in other counties, then why the heck buy something inferior just because an American made it?
And if the best tools are made here, then if we want what is best, we automatically support the American maker.
The premise of this thread is flawed. Patriotism is great, but buying American is not patriotism.

reply from: Faramir

That sums it up very succintly.
But of course people may voluntarily buy American for whatever reason if they so choose.
Though they are just fooling themselves and are being a tad self-righteous if they think that by doing so they are being "patriotic," and that those who don't do as they do are bieng "unpatriotic."

reply from: Faramir

Here's a hypothetical that's a little extreme, but I think it makes a point.
Let's say a Japanese manufacturerer came up with a 100 mile per gallon car, and that most cars in the us are getting around 25 mpg.
Also assume that every US citizen bought one of thier cars, instead of an American gas guzzler.
Would that be bad for America?
NO! Not even if it drove every American automanufacturer out of business.
It would instead be a tremendous boon to our economy. To get four times the gas milage than we could otherwise get, would be like having $1 per gallon gas. The savings would be astronomical and it would all go back into our econmy instead of in our gas tanks.

reply from: Faramir

You spent a lot of money for a drink made from a little powder and ice cubes.

reply from: yoda

Well apparently you decided the latter just now, nothing at the beginning of the thread suggests this!
To anyone of average intelligence, it would be obvious that unless you are an American, you'd have no motive to buy American........ but then, I'm stating the obvious, aren't I?

reply from: yoda

I really HATE to repost garbage, but this thread is becoming clogged up with it.
ANYONE who has been living here recently, and had their eyes open while doing so, (and who has at least average intelligence) will have come to the conclusion that our working class is in great financial pain lately due to the massive loss of jobs because of American factories either moving overseas, or going out of business because of the inability to produce goods as cheaply as the Chinese slave labor goods being imported. Add to that the enormous loss of jobs to 20 million illegal immigrants, and it's pretty easy to see that for many Americans, we are in a depression as bad as that of the 30's. For the wealthy, this is indeed a good time, because they can hire illegals at a tenth of the salary of Americans, and they can buy very cheap Chinese goods at a fraction of what American factories can make them. And they can buy people's foreclosed houses at a fraction of their former value. So it's easy to understand why the monied class would poo-poo any talk of buying American goods for patriotic reasons.
The really unfair thing about the imports is that they are made in countries like China where there are few if any environmental or labor laws, and the few that they have probably aren't being enforced. The use of child and slave labor is very common in China, where they force prisoners to produce goods for no salary at all. And with the great number of political prisoners they keep locked up, they have a plentiful supply of slave labor. Now they are also the world's biggest polluter, producing more carbon dioxide than even America. American factories, on the other hand, have to meet environmental standards and pay living wages (at least to Americans). They cannot compete with factories paying no wages and polluting the environment to their heart's content.
This situation cannot continue forever. If this turns into a general economic collapse for the entire economy, as it seems headed towards now, there will be no one left to buy even the cheap Chinese goods. The immigrants will have no jobs to keep them here, and will have to be fed by the government.
So don't be deceived by foreigners telling you not to buy American, or even Americans who don't really care about our working class. Figure it out for yourself...... our manufacturing base is being eroded to the point where we are becoming so dependent upon Chinese goods that they practically control our economy....... and if you look at who is buying our treasury bonds..... that control is more than practical, it is REAL.

reply from: Faramir

So now it's not "buy American" but "avoid Chinese imports."
China was not mentioned in the original posts.
It is almost impossible to buy American. 70% of our fuel is imported and a substantial portion of the price of anything we buy is shpping costs, so part of just about anything we buy is dependent upon foreign oil.
And we buy goods from other countries--not just China.
Regarding that goods from China are evil--what sources do you or anyone have to back that up? (And please no websites that talk about black helicopters or how much they miss being able to punch the lights out of the sodomites--something credible, instead).

reply from: galen

what about the contamination recently in pet food lead in paint on toys etc...

reply from: Faramir

This is not sound thinking about economics.
Even if this is all true, whether fair or unfair that we get cheaper goods because of alleged Chinese conditions, it can do nothing but help the US economy.
It is not a "sum zero" game. Because someone in China gets $1, it does not mean that someone in the US sacrifices $1.
Americans are clever and skilled, and can fill many of the other niches in the global economy.
We don't need to prop up our own economy artificially. We don't need to buy American to keep our economy strong. We only need to embrace the free market. (It's not so free because of regulations and taxes, but it is relatively free).
The best you can do for the US economy is to act in your self-interest and get the best quality for the best price.
The US workers and manufacturers are more than capeable of meeting that challenge.
We have over 95% employment in the US. People are working. We are not in a depression.

reply from: galen

working is not the same as earning a living wage... we may be headed for a depression who knows with congress on the loose these days.
I agree with most of what you said though .. however i would be careful about forgien goods as we have had a time with them recently.

reply from: yoda

Don't be deceived by foreigners telling you not to buy American, or even Americans who don't really care about our working class. Figure it out for yourself...... our manufacturing base is being eroded to the point where we are becoming so dependent upon Chinese goods that they practically control our economy....... and if you look at who is buying our treasury bonds..... that control is more than practical, it is REAL.

reply from: Faramir

Nobody said "don't buy American."
It's just not necessary for our economy to thrive to buy exclusively American. And we don't have to go out of our way to buy American.
We naturally buy American. I'm not going to go to Paris to buy a sandwich.
But if I can get a better car at a better price from Japan, why not?
All we need to do is look for the best product at the best price and that's the best thing we can do for our economy, personally and nationally.
If someone in the US is out of a job it's his responsibility to acquire the skills to compete in the marketplace. There is always a place for labor and skill in a free market.
http://]http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2001/06/20/the_seen_and_unseen</end"></div>">[L=http://www...the_seen_and_unseen[/q
I realize the discussion is about VOLUNTARYILY buying American, but the principle is the same as legally restricting imports. And the effect, such as what is in bold, can also be the same--that in artificially supporting those who cannot compete, more harm is done than good.
Buy the best product at the best price. Invariably an American will beneifit, since you have to buy it SOMEWHERE, and that will usually be HERE. And even if you order it from overseas, the UPS man will be paid to deliver it to you.
And let's give American workers and manufactureres a little credit. Isn't it possible they can actually provide the best products at the best prices?

reply from: yoda

4score and 7 years ago..........

reply from: Faramir

You just "four scored" the brilliant economist, Walter Williams.
Is that your rebuttal?

reply from: yoda

Our forefathers set forth on this continent........
(This is a "last word" contest.......

reply from: yoda

Don't be deceived by foreigners telling you not to buy American, or even Americans who don't really care about our working class. Figure it out for yourself...... our manufacturing base is being eroded to the point where we are becoming so dependent upon Chinese goods that they practically control our economy....... and if you look at who is buying our treasury bonds..... that control is more than practical, it is REAL.

reply from: sander

Repeating it might help...but, don't hold your breath!

reply from: yoda

It's really strange sometimes to see how people behave. I once got in an argument with someone whom I knew to be extremely argumentative, so I started saying stuff like "Black is black, and white is white".... and guess what? Yep, she even argued with that. There are some posters right here on this forum who would do exactly the same thing, I'm sure.

reply from: Faramir

And bs is bs, and that's what your posts about the economy have been.

reply from: yoda

4 score & 7 years ago.......

reply from: Faramir

Repeating it might help...but, don't hold your breath!
I've read and responded to yodavater's posts about buying American. I think I made a good case that the best thing is to buy the best value for the best price.
What specifically do you disagree with about that?

reply from: yoda

4 score & 7 years ago.......

reply from: yoda

Don't be deceived by foreigners telling you not to buy American, or even Americans who don't really care about our working class. Figure it out for yourself...... our manufacturing base is being eroded to the point where we are becoming so dependent upon Chinese goods that they practically control our economy....... and if you look at who is buying our treasury bonds..... that control is more than practical, it is REAL.

reply from: Faramir

Don't be fooled by someone who doesn't have enough intelligence or energy to do anything more than repeat his own words verbatim, or quote the Gettysburg Address instead of refuting a legitimate point.
Don't be deceived into thinking Americans cannot compete in the global marketplace and need to be coddled. They don't.
Don't be guilted into buying inferior or more expensive merchandise because it is "made in America." The best thing you can do for the American economy is to purchase the best products and servics for the best value.

reply from: yoda

4 score and 7 years ago, some idiots put forth on this continent..... no wait, that's not right....

reply from: faithman

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j214/yodavater/IamaPerson2.jpg

reply from: yoda

China, Mexico, and other third world countries hold workers (often children) in either actual or economic slavery to make their dirt cheap goods. They also pollute the environment many times over what American manufacturers are allowed to do. Both those things allow them to produce goods much more cheaply than American manufacturers can. That is another reason why Americans ought to buy American goods.
And with our economy on the brink of collapse, we have yet another good reason to buy American.

reply from: Faramir

If our own personal economy is in bad shape, we buy the best value for the best price. We don't go out looking for what is more expensive.
Help the US economy by buying the best value for the best price.
You'll have more money left over for doing other things that help your economy and the US economy, and you won't be supporting a business that should not be in business if it cannot compete.

reply from: yoda

4 score and 7 boring years ago, Fartnomore began writing posts here on the forum........ and he's still at it.....

reply from: faithman

SSSSSSOOOOOO the bottom line is more important than the economic servival of our country. Very telling. If our elected officials really cared about this country, they would pass terriffs and make all this cheap stuff the same price as what our domestic items are. This would do 2 things, provide tax revenue, and level the playing field for our domestic manufacturers. But as the communist once said, "a capatalist will sell you the rope to hang them with." The root of all evil is the love of money. Some love money more than their country.

reply from: Faramir

That would be horrible for our economy.
Our workers and manufacturers don't need charity. They don't need mommy to "level the playing field" and make things fair.
Read the articles I posted by conservative economist Walter Williams.

reply from: faithman

That would be horrible for our economy.
Our workers and manufacturers don't need charity. They don't need mommy to "level the playing field" and make things fair.
Read the articles I posted by conservative economist Walter Williams.
It would save our economy, and protect our manufacturing industry[whats left of it] and keep it home insted of the mass exidus that is happening now. You have proven to be a very foolish poster, why would there be a difference on this issue? Once again, you are just simply wrong.

reply from: faithman

But that does not mean there shouldn't be, or that we should take steps to assure finacial stability of our country. If you quit producing things, eventually you run out of money to buy them.

reply from: yoda

It's far, far too easy to just throw up your hands and say "almost everything is made overseas", just because in some industries there is a lot of mixing domestic and foreign parts in the final product. There are still many things that are totally manufactured in this country, and unless consumers show a preference for domestically manufactured goods, retailers will have no incentive to sell them.

reply from: cracrat

If it makes you all feel better, the special stretchy plastic film we use everyday in the lab at work is made in Chicago.

reply from: Faramir

But you should buy it from a manufacturer in your country and pay more for it. And we should not import anything from England if we can buy it here and pay more. That way we show love for our own countries, by spending more than we have to.
That's being "patriotic."

reply from: yoda

4 score and seven farts ago........

reply from: Faramir

It's far, far too easy to just throw up your hands and say "almost everything is made overseas", just because in some industries there is a lot of mixing domestic and foreign parts in the final product. There are still many things that are totally manufactured in this country, and unless consumers show a preference for domestically manufactured goods, retailers will have no incentive to sell them.
Retailers have an incentive to sell what people want to buy.
The best products at the best prices will be those things.
That's how a FREE economy works.
We don't need voluntary Marxism to help our economy. We just need to buy the best products and services for the best value. It HELPS our economy to do that, regardless of where they come from.

reply from: Faramir

But that does not mean there shouldn't be, or that we should take steps to assure finacial stability of our country. If you quit producing things, eventually you run out of money to buy them.
Yes, and we can sell things that we are good at making for the best value at the best price, and people will buy them here and in other countries.
It doesn't hurt us one bit if some foreigners have a good ecomony. Their gain is our gain. It is not our loss.

reply from: Faramir

But you should buy it from a manufacturer in your country and pay more for it. And we should not import anything from England if we can buy it here and pay more. That way we show love for our own countries, by spending more than we have to.
That's being "patriotic."
British exports give them more money to buy American imports, and vice versa, providing we each spend wisely, purchasing the best value. This helps create a higher standard of living for both countries.
What kills me is all the moaning about the trade deficit. I mean, we use the lion's share of the worlds resources, so doesn't it stand to reason we would import more goods than we export? We're the ones getting the "goody" out of most of the world's resources, yet we ***** about it...
The idea of "buying American" is thankfully only a voluntary proposition. But it really goes agains the idea of economics and specialization.
I might make a chair in half a day, but take two days to make a pair of shoes. You might make a pair of shoes in half a day, but take two days to make a chair.
So it makes more sense for me to trade one of my chairs for one of your pairs of shoes, instead of being inefficient and "buying" only from me. By "importing" your shoes, I have made you more wealthy and have made myself more wealthy too.
Your gain is my gain.

reply from: yoda

4 farts, and seven poots ago.......

reply from: yoda

Spoken like a true foreigner, who has no stake in America.
What's your response to my points about many foreign manufacturers using slave/prison labor, polluting much more than American factories are allowed to, and our economy collapsing under the weight of foreign imports?
No response at all? Oh wait, I forgot, you're not an American, are you?

reply from: Faramir

Spoken like a true foreigner, who has no stake in America.
What's your response to my points about many foreign manufacturers using slave/prison labor, polluting much more than American factories are allowed to, and our economy collapsing under the weight of foreign imports?
No response at all? Oh wait, I forgot, you're not an American, are you?
Is this the case with ALL imports?
Are Toyotas built by slaves?
You need to back up this claim and provide some statistics instead of making blanket unstubstantiated statements like this.
You also seem to have a prejudice against foreigners, as if they're evil or something.
There is nothing wrong with a "foreigner" selling goods to someone in the US. It's not unjust. It's not bad. It's not "unamarican" for and American to buy from him.

reply from: Faramir

True.
And if another country makes something better and more affordable, they should be rewarded.
"Countries" don't make and sell things as a rule.
Individual businesses do.
Free trade is what has cause our nation to be prosperous. Trading with others--not just among ourselves.
There is no way that foreign imports are a bad thing or that we could "collapse from their weight."
Otherwise, we could not afford to buy these things.
This type of thinking is of a mindset that someone else's gain is at someone else's expense, instead of a win-win situation, which is what a trade is. It is also very short-sighted and insecure--as if we need some kind of "protection" from others who can do better than we can. It's like being a student who wants an "A" even though all he earned is a "B", to make things "fair and even" and so that others don't show him up.
Americans are capeable of competing in the global marketplace and we don't need to be coddled and treated special. We have plenty of goods and services that others want and buy, and we don't need anything artificial to keep us going.
Wal-Mart is a boon to America, even though it has driven small stores out of business. That's the breaks in a free market.
It is up to the individual to develop marketable skills. We don't need momma to buy our stuff just because no one else wants it. We need to make stuff and at a price others will want and pay, and if we can't do that in one area, we find another.

reply from: yoda

When you oppose the "Buy American" slogan, you support such things as child/adult slave labor, extreme pollution of the environment, and the economic collapse of our country. Here are some website relating to the first two thing, and if you doubt the third, just read up on the federal bailout of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the bankruptcy of Indy Mac (which wasn't even listed on the "problem banks" list).
So, you're proud of your support of child slave labor and extreme pollution of the environment, right? You just love that cheap Chinese junk, right?
Check out these websites:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1635144,00.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/15/news/china.php

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/1/8/191237.shtml

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=16577

http://healthandenergy.com/mexico_air_pollution.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/03/31/archive/main178697.shtml

http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=57

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6268280.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_contamination

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3978

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/AtmCorros/mapMexico.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0103-02.htm

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010507/greider

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/business/worldbusiness/11chinacoal.html?ex=1307678400en=e9ac1f6255a24fd8ei=5088partner=rssnytemc=rss&pagewanted=all

http://walmartwatch.com/issues/supplier_relationships/

http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/129/

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia-pacific/2007/06/200852512553914933.html

http://www.dinocrat.com/archives/2007/06/16/slave-labor/

http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/sweatshops/whattoknow.cfm

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/laogai.html

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/eye/ozone/effect.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Chinese_slave_scandal

reply from: cracrat

OK, you are really taking the piss now suggesting that the imminent bail out of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have anything to do with anything except for the greed of banking executives. The current credit crisis around the world is due to these people taking more and more for themselves and to hell with the little guy. Which I suppose is the American Dream, but really not the fault of foreigners.

reply from: Faramir

The last time I clicked on a yodavater link, it led to a website of looneys who lamented that they could no longer beat the crap out of homosexuals.
I'm hesitant to click on these links that might lead to conspiracies about black helicopters flying around my house.
Our economy is not going to collapse. If there is slave labor in the world, that does not mean all imports are fom slave labor.
I don't oppose buying American. I just bought a meal at a restaurant in the US and decided not to travel to Mexico and by a meal from a damn foreigner, though I forgot to ask if any of all the vegetables were raised in the US.
I bought gas for my car at a US station but 70% of the raw material came from outside the US. We COULD demand that only US oil products be used and refined and pay $20 a gallon for gas, and that would REALLY help our economy and would show the utmost patriotism.

reply from: yoda

Special note: the links in my previous post are only for intelligent posters who actually want to learn something about foreign, third world manufacturers. They are not for idiots who adamantly refuse to face facts.

reply from: Faramir

Have you tried any of those links?
The first three don't work.
At any rate he misunderstands. I would not buy "Chinese junk." "Junk" is not a good value. I said we should buy the best value for the best price. Quality should be taken into consideration.
I remember when I was young if something said "made in Japan" it was considered to be of poor quality. But they've come a long way, and I know the car that I have that was made in Japan is the best quality car I have ever owned.
Or should I have purchased another Ford so I could spend more money on US mechanics?
I'm wondering if the subject has been changed.
First it was "buy American." And now it seems to be "don't buy from China."
China is not the only country from whom we import. Making a case against China does not make a good case against the principle of importing.

reply from: yoda

AMAZING!!
I post a couple dozen websites about slave/child labor and out of control pollution, and all you can say is that????
Let me guess, you didn't read a single one of those websites, did you? As usual, you're just talking out of your ass, right?
No, I know what it is........ YOU LOVE THE IDEA OF CHILD SLAVE LABOR AND HORRIBLE POLLUTION, DON'T YOU????

reply from: yoda

Fascinating...... I provide dozens of websites, and NO ONE will read them!
What IDIOTS!!!

reply from: RiverMoonLady

Try buying LOCAL things whenever possible, too. I buy food that is grown as close to my home as 1 mile, and canned goods that are grown and processed 20 miles away. Even meat comes from local growers and butchers. Because I don't live in the tropics or California, I cut way back on bananas, citrus and other imported fruit. Hey, at least pineapples come from the USA! It pays to read the labels closely.
Yesterday I needed a large plastic tarp, so instead of going to WallyMart, Costco or Target, I went to a local surplus store and found one made in N. Carolina, not China. It was inexpensive. Not made by little kids in a sweatshop. I also shop at factory outlet stores for local and American manufacturers and READ the labels.
Shop around - it pays.

reply from: Faramir

AMAZING!!
I post a couple dozen websites about slave/child labor and out of control pollution, and all you can say is that????
Let me guess, you didn't read a single one of those websites, did you? As usual, you're just talking out of your ass, right?
No, I know what it is........ YOU LOVE THE IDEA OF CHILD SLAVE LABOR AND HORRIBLE POLLUTION, DON'T YOU????
Wow, like she really said or even implied that.
What percentage of imports to the USA are from slave labor and big polluters?
You don't have a clue, do you?
And all you do is harp about China. China is not the only exporter, and not the only country from whom we import.
And not all Chinese are bad people or polluters or slaves. Some of them actually deserve to earn a living, even though they are lowly foreigners.

reply from: yoda

Smart lady........ regardless of our disagreements on other subjects, you show a lot of common sense here.
Oh, and thanks for not changing the subject, like some other idiots on this thread keep trying to do.......

reply from: Faramir

And nobody changed the subject but yoda. First it was "buy American" and now it's "don't buy Chinese."
And he refuses to actually debate points, and is still hiding behind an ignore button or pretending to.
Pages of links is not a rebuttal. That's sheer laziness and throwing stuff against the wall, hoping something will stick.
Buying local produce is great and you get the best quality, usually.
But do you think every product that comes from China is made by little kids in a sweatshop?
How do you think most Chinese people live? Are they ALL slaves?
Would you buy a Japanese car if it got better gas mileage, lasted longer, and was cheaper than a US made counterpart?
Do you realize how expensive gas would be if we did not import most of the raw product to make it?

reply from: yoda

Note to all posters:
ALL LINKS ON MY LINK ON SLAVE LABOR AND POLLUTION POST DO WORK.......
And they all refer to the two subjects I mentioned before: child/adult slave labor and excessive, uncontrolled pollution of the environment.
None of them refer to all the idiotic things others are criticizing my posts for, they are simply trying to change the subject, once again.....
(and I've fixed the one in the OP too)

reply from: Faramir

UNTRUE. Here is the original post:
The premise of this July 4th thread is that "buying American" is patriotic.
I take exception to that, because it implies that buying imports is unpatriotic, which it is not.
Yoda changed the subject to China for some reason.
We import from many countries--not just China. And Chinese people who make things we need deserve to earn a living like anyone else.
If there is slave labor involved, we need to know to what degree and for what products. It would be grossly unfair to make it seem as though all products that come from China are because of slave labor because of a few exploiters.

reply from: Faramir

The message was not about "slave labor."
And a disdain for foreigners is apparent in this and many posts in this thread.

reply from: yoda

Tainted Chinese Imports Common
In Four Months, FDA Refused 298 Shipments
By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, May 20, 2007; A01
Dried apples preserved with a cancer-causing chemical.
Frozen catfish laden with banned antibiotics.
Scallops and sardines coated with putrefying bacteria.
Mushrooms laced with illegal pesticides.
These were among the 107 food imports from China that the Food and Drug Administration detained at U.S. ports just last month, agency documents reveal, along with more than 1,000 shipments of tainted Chinese dietary supplements, toxic Chinese cosmetics and counterfeit Chinese medicines.
For years, U.S. inspection records show, China has flooded the United States with foods unfit for human consumption. And for years, FDA inspectors have simply returned to Chinese importers the small portion of those products they caught -- many of which turned up at U.S. borders again, making a second or third attempt at entry.
Now the confluence of two events -- the highly publicized contamination of U.S. chicken, pork and fish with tainted Chinese pet food ingredients and this week's resumption of high-level economic and trade talks with China -- has activists and members of Congress demanding that the United States tell China it is fed up.
Dead pets and melamine-tainted food notwithstanding, change will prove difficult, policy experts say, in large part because U.S. companies have become so dependent on the Chinese economy that tighter rules on imports stand to harm the U.S. economy, too.
"So many U.S. companies are directly or indirectly involved in China now, the commercial interest of the United States these days has become to allow imports to come in as quickly and smoothly as possible," said Robert B. Cassidy, a former assistant U.S. trade representative for China and now director of international trade and services for Kelley Drye Collier Shannon, a Washington law firm.
As a result, the United States finds itself "kowtowing to China," Cassidy said, even as that country keeps sending American consumers adulterated and mislabeled foods.
It's not just about cheap imports, added Carol Tucker Foreman, a former assistant secretary of agriculture now at the Consumer Federation of America.
"Our farmers and food processors have drooled for years to be able to sell their food to that massive market," Foreman said. "The Chinese counterfeit. They have a serious piracy problem. But we put up with it because we want to sell to them."
full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/19/AR2007051901273_pf.html

reply from: yoda

June 26, 2007 | EPI Issue Brief #235
The Wal-Mart effect
Its Chinese imports have displaced nearly 200,000 U.S. jobs
by Robert E. Scott
Read news release PDF
China's entry into the World Trade Organization (WTO) was supposed to improve the U.S. trade deficit with China and create good jobs in the United States. But those promises have gone unfulfilled: the total U.S. trade deficit with China reached $235 billion in 2006. Between 2001 and 2006, this growing deficit eliminated 1.8 million U.S. jobs (Scott 2007). The world's biggest retailer, U.S.-based Wal-Mart was responsible for $27 billion in U.S. imports from China in 2006 and 11% of the growth of the total U.S. trade deficit with China between 2001 and 2006. Wal-Mart's trade deficit with China alone eliminated nearly 200,000 U.S. jobs in this period.
The manufacturing sector and its workers were hardest hit by the growth of Wal-Mart's imports. Wal-Mart's increased trade deficit with China eliminated 133,000 manufacturing jobs, 68% of those jobs lost from Wal-Mart's imports. Jobs in the manufacturing sector pay higher wages and provide better benefits than most other industries, especially for workers with less than a college education.
China has achieved its rapidly growing trade surpluses by purchasing more than $1 trillion in U.S. Treasury bills and other government securities over the past few years in order to artificially and illegally reduce the value of its currency and thereby lower the cost of its exports to the United States and other countries. It has also repressed the labor rights of its workers and suppressed their wages, making its products artificially cheap and further subsidizing its exports. Wal-Mart has aided China's abuse of labor rights and its violations of internally recognized norms of fair trade behavior by providing a vast and growing conduit for the distribution of artificially cheap and subsidized Chinese exports to the United States.
full story: http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/ib235

reply from: yoda

Greater China
Feb 9, 2005


China trade costs US 1.5 million jobs
By Robert E Scott
The rise in the United States' trade deficit with China between 1989 and 2003 caused the displacement of production that supported 1.5 million US jobs. Some of those jobs were related to production or services that ceased or moved elsewhere; others were jobs in supplying industries. These jobs reflect the effect on labor demand - in lost job opportunities - in an economy with a worsening balance between exports and imports. Most of those lost opportunities were in the high-wage and job-hemorrhaging manufacturing sector. The number of job opportunities lost each year grew rapidly during the 1990s and accelerated after China entered the World Trade Organization (WTO) in 2001. The loss of these potential jobs is just the most visible tip of China's impact on the US economy.
During the 14-year period covered by this study, there has been a significant shift in the kinds of industries suffering job displacement, a shift that runs counter to initial expectations. Where the largest impact was once felt in labor-intensive, lower-tech manufacturing industries such as apparel and shoes, the fastest growth in job displacement is now occurring in highly skilled and advanced technology areas once considered relatively immune, such as electronics, computers, and communications equipment.
# Major findings of this study The loss of job-supporting production in the United States due to growing trade deficits with China has more than doubled since it entered the WTO in 2001. The 1.5 million job opportunities lost nationwide are distributed among all 50 states and the District of Columbia, with the biggest losers in numeric terms being California (199,922), Texas (99,420), New York (81,721), Pennsylvania (69,822), Illinois (69,668), North Carolina (62,698), Florida (60,026), Ohio (58,094), Michigan (50,991) and Georgia (46,848).
# The 10 hardest-hit states, as a share of total state employment, are Maine (14,951, or 2.47%), Arkansas (19,123, 1.67%), North Carolina (62,698, 1.65%), Rhode Island (7,548, 1.56%), New Hampshire (9,443, 1.53%), Indiana (43,533, 1.50%), Massachusetts (46,463, 1.46%), Wisconsin (39,668, 1.43%), Vermont (4,211, 1.41%) and California (199,922, 1.39%).
# China's exports to the US of electronics, computers and communications equipment, along with other products that use more highly skilled labor and advanced technologies, are growing much faster than its exports of low-value, labor-intensive items such as apparel, shoes and plastic products.
# Consequently, China now accounts for the entire US$32 billion US trade deficit in advanced-technology products (ATP).
# China is also rapidly gaining advantage in more advanced industries such as autos and aerospace products.
full story: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GB09Ad05.html

reply from: yoda

JUNE 18, 2007
COVER STORY
By Michael Mandel
The Real Cost Of Offshoring
U.S. data show that moving jobs overseas hasn't hurt the economy. Here's why those stats are wrong
podcast
COVER STORY PODCAST

Whenever critics of globalization complain about the loss of American jobs to low-cost countries such as China and India, supporters point to the powerful performance of the U.S. economy. And with good reason. Despite the latest slow quarter, official statistics show that America's economic output has grown at a solid 3.3% annual rate since 2003, a period when imports from low-cost countries have soared. Similarly, domestic manufacturing output has expanded at a decent pace. On the face of it, offshoring doesn't seem to be having much of an effect at all.
But new evidence suggests that shifting production overseas has inflicted worse damage on the U.S. economy than the numbers show. BusinessWeek has learned of a gaping flaw in the way statistics treat offshoring, with serious economic and political implications. Top government statisticians now acknowledge that the problem exists, and say it could prove to be significant.
The short explanation is that the growth of domestic manufacturing has been substantially overstated in recent years. That means productivity gains and overall economic growth have been overstated as well. And that raises questions about U.S. competitiveness and "helps explain why wage growth for most American workers has been weak," says Susan N. Houseman, an economist at the W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research who identifies the distorting effects of offshoring in a soon-to-be-published paper.
full story: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_25/b4039001.htm?chan=top%20news_top%20news%20index_businessweek%20exclusives

reply from: Faramir

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a "trade deficit."
I have a trade deficit with my grocery store. I buy much more from them than they do from me.
There is nothing wrong if China prospers. Their prosperity is our prosperity.
The economy is not a "sum zero" game.
Whenver a voluntary exchane of money for goods occurs BOTH SIDES WIN.
That's just plain simple and basic economics.
I hope some manufacturer in China makes a 100 mpg car.
If they do, would it be unamerican to buy it? Would it be better to buy a 25 mpg US car?

reply from: yoda

Extra! September/October 1997
Broken Promises
More than 400,000 lost jobs later, media still selling NAFTA
By Janine Jackson
The benefits of the North American Free Trade Agreement were obvious to mainstream U.S. media back in 1992-93. The New York Times (7/21/92) said NAFTA promised "jobs, wealth and economic activity throughout the continent." The Washington Post declared (9/14/93) that "the list of new opportunities and advantages is a long one," while insisting (5/11/93) that "opposition to the agreement is rooted in dark forebodings almost comically out of proportion to any possible results." The Wall Street Journal (8/7/92) predicted "lower prices on a wide variety of goods," which Time (8/10/92) pointed out would especially help "low-income households."
As criticism of the treaty mounted, notably from labor and environmental groups, mainstream media got defensive, running urgent editorials like "Stop Nibbling At NAFTA" (New York Times, 8/17/93), "Why Trade Can't Wait" (Washington Post, 3/9/93) and "The Vital Treaty That Must Not Die" (L.A. Times, 3/25/93).
1997 marks three years since NAFTA took effect, and, by any standard, the results are decidedly less rosy than proponents predicted. Many of the critics' concerns for workers' wages and rights --on both sides of the border--and for environmental protections are now verifiable.
full story: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1396

reply from: yoda

U.S. manufacturing jobs fading away fast
By Barbara Hagenbaugh, USA TODAY
ROCHESTER, N.Y. - Charles Seitz remembers when Rochester was a bustling manufacturing town. Now, all the 58-year-old unemployed engineer sees is a landscape of empty buildings.
"There's nothing made here anymore," the former Eastman Kodak employee says, his eyes welling with tears as he talks about his struggle to find a new job. "Wealth is really created by making things. I still adhere to that."
It's a situation that's been playing out across the country for decades but has received increased attention in recent years. Fifty years ago, a third of U.S. employees worked in factories, making everything from clothing to lipstick to cars. Today, a little more than one-tenth of the nation's 131 million workers are employed by manufacturing firms. Four-fifths are in services.
full story: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2002-12-12-manufacture_x.htm

reply from: yoda

There were probably people on the Titanic advising passengers not to panic, have faith in White Star Lines, and stay calm. Just as there are idiots here in this country denying that our working class is hurting tremendously, and turning their noses up at any talk of people going hungry. Well, if they can fill their bellies, why should they care about anyone else?
Now who does that remind you of? Well, the proaborts say "don't worry about those babies being killed, as long as you're okay".

reply from: Faramir

If there is anyone following this thread who would like to enter into an intelligent and civil discussion about this topic, and not resort to "poot poot" rebuttals, I would welcome it.
If you're inclined to think that it's better to buy American, regardless, please read the followng from conservative economist, Walter Williams, who often sits in for Rush Limbaug, and see if doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
">http://www.townhall.com/Column...uld_we_trade_at_all[/q

reply from: yoda

People who make millions of dollars a month can't be expected to care about American families starving to death. Nor can idiots who get their money from some source other than a job that could be lost to imports (service, religious, etc.)
People who make millions of dollars also don't usually care about the environment, or the plight of foreign worked trapped in slavery. But those are the very people who are trying to hide the truth from us.
Choose carefully whose word you take on this situation. Understand on which side their "bread is buttered". People of great means are actually better of in a depression than during "good times", because they can buy up family farms for a song, and force the farmers to work for peanuts.
There is a looming crisis in this country, barely hidden under the typical headlines from the mass media. Read more than the apologists for the very people who have created this mess we are in.

reply from: Faramir

I'm a poor hick just like yoda.
But I understand that protectionism and artificially propping up the inefficient does a lot of harm to the economy.
If we refused to import oil and use only what we now have in the US (but I'm hoping we could eventually drill for more), it would DOOM our economy.
And we are all dependent upon a good economy.
I'm self employed, but all my customers are manufactureres, so it does me no good if they go out of business. But someone must be buyinig their products, because I still have customers, and this is one of my better years.

reply from: Faramir

From the above article:
So let's be honest with ourselves. Why do we choose to import cocoa, coffee and spices rather than produce them ourselves? The answer is that it is cheaper to do so. That means we enjoy a higher standard of living than if we tried to produce them ourselves. If we can enjoy, say, coffee, at a cheaper price than producing it ourselves, we have more money left over to buy other goods. That principle not only applies to cocoa, coffee and spices. It's a general principle: If a good can be purchased more cheaply abroad, we enjoy a higher standard of living by trading than we would by producing it ourselves.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

I drive a Nissan Pathfinder - OK?
I disagree with a lot of China's politics, so I try not to support them - but I do love Chinese food and patronize the local restaurants now and then. Why should I support other countries (and their people) when shipping their junk and distributing it uses too much energy? Sorry, I am an anti-consumerismist. I purchase what I NEED, not what I see on TV. I also have the knowledge and experience to survive in a simple way. Do you know how to grow and preserve your own meat and produce yet? Someday you might need to know.
Hey, Yoda, you're OK when you want to be. Thanks for the nice words. And you are very right, we can agree to disagree on some things.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

'05 and later Pathfinders were made in Smyrna, Tennessee.
It's a 1997. I don't buy new cars, ever. Not even close to new, either. I like them "broken in."
Maybe in 5 years I'll be ready for another one, and this time it will have been made in the USA. Works for me!

reply from: Faramir

If they are shipping "junk" then why buy it at all? Who said anything about buying junk? Are Americans so stupid that they need to be told to not buy junk?
And if the cost of shipping and distributing quality items is excessive, it will be reflected in the price.
But we ship and distribute just about EVERYTHING. That's part of the cost of almost every item.
I totally agree with the concept of living frugally. That's why I think it's great you own a Nissan. Your repair bills are probably very low, and you proabably have 300,000 miles on it.
Thie issue is about patriotism and buying American. It is not unpatriotic to buy the best goods for the best prices, even if a foreigner makes them.
Again, try that with oil. If we only refined our own oil, our gas prices would be through the roof. That would not be good for our economy. It is much better for our economy to import it, even though it costs to ship and distribute it, and even though some foreigners get to make some money off it.
And it's nice to see yodavater being nice to a "proabort." He was nicer to you than he is to a lot of prolifers. So you must be doing something right (or wrong).

reply from: yoda

Many of them are made in this country, so you have to do some research if you want to buy an automobile made "mostly" of American parts and assembled in America. The auto industry has become truly "internationalized".
Most "Chinese food" is made here. Most of the dishes you can buy in a "Chinese restaurant" in this country are actually American dishes, and wouldn't be recognized in China.
I'm agreeable when I actually agree with someone. And common sense is common sense, wherever and in whomever it happens to occur.

reply from: Faramir

Isn't it really just "comon sense" to buy the best product for the best price?

reply from: yoda

Bump for those of good conscience who do not want to support child/adult slavery, extreme pollution, and shipping American jobs overseas.

reply from: Faramir

Bump for those who live in the land of the free, where we may buy the best value for the best price, and where we may totally ingnore the guilt trips of small minded bigots who hate foreigners.
And yay for Wal-Mart!
Thank you Sam Walton for being the good patriot you were and for bringing value to US citizens for the best prices.
But to those of you who hate imports--just try buying ONLY domestic gasoline.
You can't--but if you could, $4.00 per gallon would look like the good old days.
Yodavater has once again proven himself to be disingenuous, since this thread was about "buying American" as if that is the patriotic thing to do, and now he is making the ridiculous case that every time you buy an import, it was made by a slave in China.
I don't think Toyotas are made in China. The fuel in our cars does not come from China. The food they sell in Wal-Mart does not come from China, but some does come from Mexico. (I wonder if Mexicans are evil too. ) The gourmet teas and cookies that come from England or other European countries are not made in China.
There is nothing wrong with services being done overseas. There are now many Indians employed as tech support and other jobs that are done by telephone, and by being part of the global economy in this way, they can better provide for their families and can provide services to US and other corporations at good prices. That frees US workers to do better jobs in the US job marketplace.
Or are Indians evil too? Is it so bad that an Indian makes a few dollars to feed his family?
What yodavater and those who lean towards a Marxist and protectionsist type of economy do not understand, is that the marketplace is not like one big casino where one person's gain is another person's loss.
It is a system by which everyone gains.
And until it can be demonstrated exactly what products are created by slave labor and what percentage of the import market they represent, the idea that everything you buy that is not made in this country is made by slaves is just a scare tactic.

reply from: Faramir

Do you think he realizes that many "proaborts" are also of the "hate Wal-Mart" ilk?
I wonder how he likes being in bed with them.
I hope he has some kind of "protection."

reply from: Faramir

Hey maybe would could make a website that shames people for going to wal mart like yoda does with his website.
We'll post photos of all the America-haters who shop there, and we will give a prize to the one who provides a photo of yoda coming out of a wal mart. (We'll be able to tell it's him, even with the sunglasses).
It's just about IMPOSSIBLE to buy American, anyway, but to try to force it is just plain ridiculous and very short sighed, and very ANTI-American.
Your ability to prosper in a global economy did not hurt America. It HELPED America.
We could talke this false idea of loyalty further, and only buy in our own state. Or we could take it further and only buy in our own city.
If we shrink it down small enough, it becomes very plain to see that there are times when "outsiders" can do the job better and cheaper--so let them.
What I think is really missing from this idea of "buying American" is that to be consistent, we should only SELL American.
So where would we be if all those unpatriotic people in England or France or China or Brazil were no longer able to buy our products?

reply from: yoda

Was that in response to something, or did you just feel like rolling in the floor laughing?

reply from: yoda

Ah, but your "ROFL" wasn't "irrelevant rubbish ", right?
That's good to know.....

reply from: yoda

Now even the President is admitting that our economy is in trouble. When he admits it, you know something is seriously wrong.
This is not a matter of "patriotism" as some try to characterize it, it's a matter of self-interest for every American. It may become a matter of survival for some Americans.

reply from: Faramir

Whether the economy is good or bad, it is not because of buying imports or because of "exporting" jobs. Those things are GOOD for the economy.
High energy prices are taking a toll on the economy.
What we need is to incurease the supply and bring more oil to the marketplace, and we can do that by allowing US companies to drill here in the US.
This is not a "buy American" idea, though in this case it works out that way, and in this case it is better to put supplies of oil into the hands of the sane.
Going around looking for American items to buy is not going to do anything for our economy. The best things we can do are to act in our self interest by buying the best value for the best price, and by being careful with our resources.
And sometimes even Americans are clever enough to provide the best value for the best price.


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