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Benham dropped OR name in '99'

Flip has no claim to the operation recue name.

by: faithman

Randall Terry was chased out of OR for adultry, and Flip Benham dropped the name in 1999 http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=10173 The law suit against Troy Newman is baseless.

reply from: Skippy

Your post shows a very poor understanding of trademark laws and regulations.

reply from: NewGuy

That was a ridiculous statement faithman. 1. Mr. Terry couldn't have been "chased out" of his OWN organization. 2. The adultery accusation is a bold faced lie started by the Cannibals for Christ
http://www.operationrescuetheft.com/7statements.pdf

http://www.operationrescuetheft.com/Docs/FalseWitness.pdf

reply from: faithman

Then jump on flip benham not troy Newman. It was Benham who supposedly ran Terry off. Troy continues to mostly refuse to react to all this. But it is a recorded fact that both Terry and benham dropped the Or name. I heard benham with my own ears state that they dropped the name because of the huge law suits against it. The owner of this site will also back up what I am saying.

reply from: sander

How does "New Guy" get wind of the posts about this situation? Never hear a word from him til a post like this and then....bang...he shows up.
No offense, New Guy...but, you're one ugly gorilla!

reply from: faithman

...and obviously dumb as one too. Anyone who is familiar with the history of OR, know for a fact that both Benham and Terry dropped the name, while Troy has been using it since at least 93. First as OR West, and then after contacting benham, and making sure Benham had indeed changed the name To OSA, Dropped the word west from his organization. The only reason Benhamn and Terry want it back is because Troy has worked hard and brought it back into national prominance. I have had operatives from OSA take credit for my hard work as well, and they made a huge mess for the people in Jackson Mississippi, and when the tv cameras were gone so were they. Many have called for all involved to bring this to a mediator to work it out, but Benham, and Terry have refused, and would rather go to a secular court than work it out in house. All the while Troy has refused to get caught up in it, stands ready to go before a pro-life mediator board, and continues to give tiller the killer fits in Kansas. If Terrry and Benham really cared about the womb children, they would put their gigantic egos aside, and recognize Troy fights for the womb children, and is a true servant of those who stand for pre-born life. Troy is the class of the field in this race, and I believe even a secular court will throw this frivolous suite out. There are many sites on the net that bears this out. The site on this thread is a 1999 press release that shows Benham dropped the name when they changed to OSA.

reply from: NewGuy

well i'm glad i can be here to set you straight and i'm flattered you appropriate me to my gorilla icon.
the bottom line is that Mr. Terry didn't drop the name because it is HIS moniker and was never Mr. Newman's nor was it Mr. Benham's to use/drop/solicit. also a complaint with the trademark commission is not the same as a lawsuit. that might help you with your misunderstanding. the history is all online. http://www.operationrescuetheft.com
don't pretend like you know the history until you've read it.

reply from: faithman

I have had dealings with all the players, and I can tell you that Troy is the only one with an once of integrity. I know the history because for some of it I was there. Benham and Terry both are chumps, so it doesn't suprise me that a chimp would defend them.

reply from: NewGuy

i guess that answers my question. you didn't read the documentation on the website previously mentioned.
Mr. Newman flat out lied to the trademark commission. what sort of integrity is that? is slandering falsehoods about Mr. Terry integrity? is hijacking someone else's legacy for capital gain integrity? is leaving a church 2 days before the truth coming out about the trademark complaint integrity? Mr. Newman and Mr. White have no integrity. read the documents. http://www.operationrescuetheft.com

reply from: sander

I have no idea what all of this is about, it's not something I feel I need to.
But, I'd still like to know how you get wind of this everytime something is posted! Is it magic?

reply from: chailife

Not so much magic as monitoring this thread frequently, I suspect...AND, possibly, being Randall Terry himself

reply from: faithman

I would say that it is our resident monkey boy doing it. But thats just me. I have had dealings with all of them. Terry and Benham are ego maniac Narsasist. Mr. Newman is a true servant. Has done more to close clinics than the other two put together. While Terry was out trying to be a media star, country singer, politician, and philanderer; Troy was driving truth trucks across the country, serving local groups, giving Tiller and his political hinchmen fits, and staying true to his wife and family. Troy has remained true, and focussed on fighting baby killers. It does not suprise me that he is under this satanic attack. It will not matter which way this thing turns out, I know it will not stop Troy from fighting abortion.

reply from: sander

Except this thread is new, so how can it be monitored frequently?
And did you just get out of your gorilla suit? Because, I'm telling ya...you look alot better!

reply from: faithman

Except this thread is new, so how can it be monitored frequently?
And did you just get out of your gorilla suit? Because, I'm telling ya...you look alot better!
I think CP ought to get back into the suit. It SUITS him better.

reply from: sander

Except this thread is new, so how can it be monitored frequently?
And did you just get out of your gorilla suit? Because, I'm telling ya...you look alot better!
I think CP ought to get back into the suit. It SUITS him better.
Well, somebody is having an idenity crisis!

reply from: NewGuy

no. i'm not Mr. Terry. but thanks for putting me in tall cotton. so faithman you still have some answering to do about Mr. Newman:

reply from: yoda

Oh, how I long for the good ole days, when legal matters were decided quietly in a court of law, rather than being tried in the "court of public opinion". Trademark matters are not our area of expertise, folks.... why not let the courts do their thing and we do ours?

reply from: faithman

Newman was fully investigated by the trade commission, and was awarded the trademark because he proved that he was the only one using the name, and had never abandoned it. You just don't get a trade mark by filing for it. It is given to those who prove they have been using it. Terry hasn't used the name in over 15 years, and Benham publicly dropped it in the late 90's. There is no slander of Terry here. He most assuredly abandoned his family, and was called on the carpet for mis using funds. The leadership team of OR at that time renounced Terry, and have also renounced publicly the law suit Terry now brings against Troy.

reply from: nancyu

That sounds logical to me.

reply from: faithman

Newman was fully investigated by the trade commission, and was awarded the trademark because he proved that he was the only one using the name, and had never abandoned it. You just don't get a trade mark by filing for it. It is given to those who prove they have been using it. Terry hasn't used the name in over 15 years, and Benham publicly dropped it in the late 90's. There is no slander of Terry here. He most assuredly abandoned his family, and was called on the carpet for mis using funds. The leadership team of OR at that time renounced Terry, and have also renounced publicly the law suit Terry now brings against Troy.

reply from: chailife

I'm not Randall Terry either. Beng a female, I thought also being Randall Terry would be ill-advised.
However, I would have to say there is quite a bit of evidence out there to document that Benham gave up the name OR in the late 1990s.

reply from: sander

Come on, are you guys going to keep me in suspense? How the heck do you get wind of a thread like this? I know it's not magic!

reply from: yoda

Then why not let the court consider it and make their ruling? Why try this case here?

reply from: chailife

I visit the Life Dynamics site frequently because I find the debates interesting. I posted today because I have been following the whole Terry/Newman/Benham story since it broke. Although I've tried to look at this objectively, I am saddened that both RT and Flip have seen fit through their websites, to try this case in the court of public opinion.
I cannot speak as to how the Gorilla knows when people post but I have my suspicions...

reply from: NewGuy

wow that really is a mouthful of lies.
1. the trademark doesn't 'investigate' anything. all they do is check if the name is currently registered with their records. Mr. Terry was definitely using the name but never had it officially trademarked because he didn't think anyone would try to hijack it. and yes you absolutely do get a trademark by just filing it if it is not on their records. what do you really think they are going to do a great deal of extensive research on the thousands of trademark filings they get a month? and Benham never owned it. he had a version of it but not the two words "Operation Rescue." which belongs to Mr. Terry. and absolutely Mr. Newman is going to lose the filing. just a matter of time.
2. Mr. Terry didn't abandon his family. his kids moved in with him. and he was a block away so the kids could be near their mom. if you were Catholic you would know what an annulment is. if you are not i recommend you research it.
3. Just because some arrogant so called leaders didn't like Mr. Terry doesn't mean they 'ran him out.' The "Cannibals for Christ" that associate with Mr. Newman and Mr. White are hardly leaders and definitely not honorable men.
4. Obviously you still haven't read the history on www.operationrescuetheft.com because you are still delusional

reply from: NewGuy

google has a blog and news search as well as websites. no mystery. no magic

reply from: sander

So you google this topic every day?

reply from: NewGuy

I'm going to steal Fr. Pavone's moniker priests for life. fund raise for myself off of it. with all the money i raise for my ministry i will do alot of good work with it. and if Fr. Pavone comes out and says, "hey. that's stealing. it is immoral and illegal." and i will reply like many others, "i'm doing good work leave me alone. why are you trying to divide the prolife movement by trying to stop my operation. it is a waste of time and resources to wreck my priests for life ministry. you must be linking arms with the proaborts."
if your ministry was hijacked by a poser. you would do the same. don't pretend you're taking the high route.

reply from: chailife

It's troublesome that the only information source New Guy ever cites is the OR Theft site written, for the most part, by RT himself. How about some independent sources to back up what you and RT have to say about Newman and the "Cannibals"?

reply from: galen

____________________________________________________________
you do know the catholic church would crush you like a small maggot... and it wouldn't stop thier stride.
it would not even stop priests for life as they are all the same entity...so go find another place to whine.

reply from: NewGuy

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS117697+12-Jun-2008+PRN20080612
http://www.thechronicleonline.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=823&Itemid=502
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle+articleid_1976220~zoneid_Home.html

reply from: IYAOYAS

No, no, no ... I am Randall Terry!
Well, not really but I do think my secretary is hot!

reply from: chailife

I'd thank New Guy for the links but the first one is not working and the other two are an article announcing that RT is filing suit and a copy of part of the press release RT sent out when Troy Newman left his church. Why can't you come up with a source that was not written by RT himself?
I would refer people to the OSA website (www.operationsaveamercia.org) for several articles written by Benham and the MTTU site (www.mttu.com) for an audio clip of Benham explaining why the name was changed from OR to OSA.
There's a lot more out there but these two sites are a good start for anyone interested in learning more.

reply from: faithman

http://www.mttu.com/main.htm

reply from: IYAOYAS

Have you seen the new Prayer Card? LOL - too much!
http://mttu.com/Articles/ORPC.jpg
I think it is to be distributed in different languages.

reply from: sander

What's going on in this thread? All the newbies googling too? Something is fishy.

reply from: IYAOYAS

You know how is goes - a friend tells a friend who tells a friend. The board is growing. A good thing.
This just happens to be a thread of great interest. No one knows for certain how this whole situation will play out. Time will tell.

reply from: chailife

I agree...something IS fishy...about a guy putting so much time, money and effort into "getting his name back". If you read the book "Wrath of Angels" (especially Chapter 12), you will get a clearer picture of how RT actually regarded his name and legacy. The book was written with the cooperation of a lot of people who were in OR at its height (including Terry) and those who laid the groundwork for OR to achieve the national success it did.

reply from: faithman

He acts as if he raised OR all by himself. It would be like a local Right To life group have people who may have started it decades ago, but havent been active for years, then come back and run ruff shod over those who presently are in control of it. Starting an organization does not give you life time control, and particularly when you abandoned it. If he had remained faithful in service, and then an attack came from usurpers, he would have a case. In this case, Terry and Benham are the usurpers who can not stand the fact that Troys hard work is paying off big time. Everthing that can be shaken, will be shaken, and only the truth will be left standing at the end of the day. The only horse that is running the race without fighting back at the other horses knawing his hind quaters is Troy Newman. Benham and Terry are full of self promotion and personal agenda. If they truely care about the womb child, they would celebrate the hard work of troy, not waist time and effort in tearing him down.

reply from: yoda

That's the despicable part of this whole thing..... they're not using their time, effort and money to protect the unborn, they're using it to promote themselves while trying to tear down someone who is actively engaged in the abortion war. They are truly disgusting.
BTW, I just got a mailing from the Holoman's of MTTP, and they discuss some of the backbitting now going on in the movement. Here's what they have to say about this controversy:
"Troy Newman is being sued by Randall Terry for using the Operation Rescue (OR) name. In 1991, after cutting a deal with the feds, Randall Terry quit OR giving its control to Keith Tucci. Tucci later resigned and passed its leadership to Flip Benham. Because of the threats of lawsuits, Benham changed the name to Operation Save America. The OR name was abandoned by everyone except Troy Newman. Newman continued to build the on the name, and now Terry wants it back."

reply from: IYAOYAS

Dittos Yodavader!
BTW - you have quite a lively forum here. If I had known it was this lively, I have joined sooner.

reply from: jujujellybean

pardon me, but what does IYAOYAS mean???

reply from: faithman

I believe it is that strange sound that marines are so found of making. But the can make all the strange sounds they want as long as they stay good at killing people and blowing things up to keep us free.

reply from: IYAOYAS

It's a military term. I could tell you, but then you would probably turn to jelly. It was my MOS.
And the Marine Corps "sound" faithman was talking about is "Ooo-rah."

reply from: 4given

..If you aint ordnance.. Yoda, isn't your grandson a marine?! Be sure to extend my gratitude and blessings to him!

reply from: chailife

Getting back (somewhat) on topic, has anybody read RT's interview in the July issue of Playboy? You don't have to buy it because he proudly links to the article on his identity theft website. If you have raed it, what do you think?

reply from: IYAOYAS

Yeah - read that. I have a slight problem with his rationale for doing the interview - in that maybe a woman thinking about having an abortion would "read" PLAYBOY magazine.
Yeah, not so much. There is about as much chance of that happening as him doing an interview for NABMLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association.
Maybe I am just too cynical ...

reply from: carolemarie

I think the whole thing is a big waste of everyone's time.
Troy, Flip and Randall are all big boys and can handle their own internal fighting.

reply from: 4given

Cynical? Probably not. Is there a way (or link) you can post to the article? Or portions of it?
And Yoda I agree with this completely:
Isn't it always supposed to be about the unborn first?!

reply from: IYAOYAS

Maybe so, maybe no. I think those us us who were rescuers back in the day, care about the legacy of Operation Rescue. We paid the price, and care about what happens to it.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Got the RT article:
http://www.ahumbleplea.com/Docs/julyplayboyinterview.pdf

reply from: IYAOYAS

RT's new video ... "There is a massive leadership void ... in the Pro-life movement."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFPm6Ri0VQo
Physcian heal thyself - you disappeared in the mid-1990's.

reply from: carolemarie

The legacy is already tarnished by the constant bickering over the name.
Why don't you just say I rescued back when God ran OR....

reply from: IYAOYAS

While this may be true - one should not speak to the reputation of Operation Rescue and what it means to rescuers, unless one was there.
This would be akin to a civilian speaking to life in the Marine Corps, while only being a slimey civilian. That would be UNSAT.
Both came at a cost.

reply from: 4given

No, but there is a likelihood of a father of an "unplanned" baby reading.. From my understanding, it was likely orchestrated through his publicist, in hopes of helping his case.
Q: Why do you want to speak to The
Playboy Forum?
A: It's about reaching people I wouldn't
be able to otherwise. There are people
reading my words who are going to have
an unplanned pregnancy, and they're
going to be tempted to abort their child.
If my heartfelt pleading to them to let
their baby live results in someone getting
to hold their just-born little boy or girl,
it will be worth all the hell I'll catch for
doing this interview.

reply from: IYAOYAS

I get what you are saying 4given - but c'mon ... guys don't buy Playboy for the intellectual stimulation! The same rationale could be applied for doing interviews for pedophiles, the Gay Blade, or Penthouse! What is next Hustler?
We are Christians here. Don't we have any standards - or does the end justify the means???

reply from: chailife

With the sheer number of magazines out now that cater to women who might face an unplanned pregnancy, why not interview with something less controversial than Playboy? Even an interview in People or Reader's Digest is more likely to reach his target audience.
Didn't Terry once make a comment about men who treat women like Playboy Bunnies?

From the PBS Documentary "With God on our side"
Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue, on his larger strategy:
From the beginning when I founded Operation Rescue, the vision was not solely to end child-killing; the vision was to recapture the power bases of America, for child- killing to be the first domino, if you will, to fall in a series of dominoes. My feeling was, and still is, once we mobilize the momentum, the manpower, the money, and all that goes with that to make child-killing illegal, we will have sufficient moral authority and moral force and momentum to get the homosexual movement back in the closet, to get the condom pushers in our schools to be back on the fringes of society where they belong where women are treated with dignity, not as Playboy bunnies
For that matter, didn't Terry once make a comment about men who leave their wives for younger women?

reply from: IYAOYAS

Exactly!
BTW - any negative comments to the Randall Terry video I linked are removed immediately. Who'd have thunk it!

reply from: 4given

We (I) have standards! I was trying to present the other side. His "publicist" and RT himself may have just helped to reveal the length he will travel to get what he wants. The sad thing is that if and when his name or Operation Rescue comes up in a liberal setting- they won't have or know any more. This was a planned interview. At this point he has counsel, whether or not he chooses Godly counsel, is and will be his undoing. This case is grievous to me. How much money has been spent on "counsel"? I will always associate OR with the dedication of Troy, Cheryl and the many TRUTH warriors that follow suit. It is disgraceful and saddening that it could/would come to this. What is to gain by any of it? More will be lost.

reply from: chailife

I'm surprised New Guy hasn't weighed in on this latest topic. I'd love to hear his justification for RT's choice of venue for reaching women considering abortion.

reply from: chailife

I found the Terry quote I referenced before:
Randall Terry's 1996 book, The Judgment of God:
"We have become a sex-crazed society. Women are viewed as sex toys to be used and discarded by vile, pathetic males (I shall not call them men); family are destroyed as a father vents his mid-life crisis by abandoning his wife for a younger, prettier model."
Don't Playboy readers also tend to view women as 'sex toys'?

reply from: IYAOYAS

Do guys "read" Playboy? I'm just saying ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it4FUQRDXCM&feature=related
Interesting video above. It's a CNN report about Gorilla - err - Randall Terry. Granted, this is from CNN, so one must take it with a grain of salt. What is interesting is what has happened to all three of his adopted children. All three have been virtually cutoff. The boy is gay, which is well known. The one daughter got pregnant out of wedlock, and no longer has contact with her dad. The other daughter had two children out of wedlock, and is now a Muslim.
Now the children out of wedlock thing - that happens. It is the way of the world today. But one of his adopted daughters becoming Muslim??? That just shows that either she was never grounded in God's Word, or she saw some example(s) of the Christian faith that turned her away. Regardless, that does fall upon both parents to raise up their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Obviously, that was not done.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, he is. Thanks, and will do!

reply from: yoda

..............................I WISH........................

reply from: chailife

Would that they were keeping it internal...RT puts up a website dedicated to telling the world about how Troy Newman "stole" his name and lashing out at everyone who ever crossed his path with promises of more to come.
Flip uses the OSA site to blast both Newman and Terry while, on the other hand, commending Terry for using his "gifts" to bring down Troy.
Troy, for the most part, has kept his mouth shut and is focused on doing actual life-saving work in his efforts against Tiller.
If Terry and Benham put as much effort into saving babies as they did into tearing down Troy, they probably wouldn't have time to file lawsuits and write diatribes.

reply from: faithman

Thats the whole prob here. Troy is the only one of the three that refuses to fight back. I got a feeling the other 2 will be real sorry if Troy get provoked enough to do so. He is not week, and the others mistake his meekness for weekness.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Troy Newman has remained silent. I did some digging into why is not defending himself, and came across this link. With this new information, I believe Newman is not concerned with lawsuits. Oddly enough, it could be that RT himself is protecting Troy unawares.
http://mttu.com/Articles/StTerryScapular.jpg

reply from: faithman

Snicker snicker.... cute! The really sick part of this is that both RT, and FB wiped their self promotion behinds with th OR name, and then abandoned it. Troy merely caught the OR flag before it hit the ground, and carried on some of the most effective fighting that standard has ever known. The only reason FB, and RT now fight Troy, is because his actions lift up their skirts, and show the nakedness of their inefectual leadership, and cowardice under fire. Now that one has restored the OR flag to national prominance, they would rather try and wrestle it back for self promotion, than celebrate the effective battle OR is waging against the enemies of the womb child.

reply from: faithman

Psa 5:1 ΒΆ [[To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David.]] Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
Psa 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct [my prayer] unto thee, and will look up.
Psa 5:4 For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psa 5:7 But as for me, I will come [into] thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: [and] in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.
Psa 5:8 Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.
Psa 5:9 For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.
Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield.

reply from: chailife

Ironically, RT makes jokes about Troy's "manhood" and claims that he and Troy are "not peers" as far as RT is concerned (read his "Fals Witness" diatribe on the Identity Theft website). RT is right - Troy is much more of a man than either RT pr Flip and he and RT are certainly "not peers". Troy is clearly RT's superior.

reply from: chailife

I don't know how much money Troy has talen in since taking over OR but it's not like RT or Flip are hurting financially. At least with Troy you can get some idea of where the money is going. The fruits of his ministry are visible.
If Gorilla or RT would like to account for his financial expenditures I'm sure the rest of us would like to know how he would use future donations should he prevail in court and get the name back.

reply from: faithman

Troy runs an open book. He also bought an abortion clinic, and evicted the abortionist. It is now a head quaters, and museum for OR. Another lot was bought behind the clinic by OR so they could park the truth trucks right next to the clinic before it closed. They gave the property to a CPC, and it is now a memorial garden. Idiots like CP just like believing falsehoods because he is a secular humanist god hating jerk. OR now has 10 truth trucks that criss cross the land. He even offered one to us, but we don't have the resourses to keep one on the road. I believe he is going to loan one to Missionaries to the pre-born to tour colorado to promote personhood in that state. RT and FB offer nothing to help others in the fight. Troy's example is one of the main reasons we offer free material to the front. Some offer nothing but ego driven critisism, because they are shallow convict chumps who do little else than post drivel on forums, and blast anything that even comes close to real effort in real time.

reply from: chailife

You know RT bought property too...a house three blocks from the beach. I guess it was to keep an abortionist from moving into that particular gated community.

reply from: chailife

CP, your post has me a little confused. First of all, Flip is, by no means, defending Troy Newman. If you read in the archives of the OSA website, you will find several pieces Flip wrote condemning Troy in very harsh terms. While he also has condemns RT, he supports Terry's efforts to "expose" Newman via the lawsuit.
Secondly, there are many people on both sides of the issue who make thier living from abortion. Groups such as the National Abortion Federation and NARAL pay their staff as do groups such as National Right to Life and the American Life League. Abortionists don't abort for free. People, such as myself, have worked in maternity homes and gotten paid (not a lot but it was still something). Is it simply the fact that people have made money through abortion or anti-abortion related work that you object or that the men in question don't seem to have "real" jobs within the movement?
We can debate all day long as to whether or not Troy or Flip have "real" jobs. Perhaps you would feel better if the folks in question were able to outline exactly what it is they do with their time and donors' money? Asking for a certain measure of accountability is not an unreasonable request. My understanding is that Troy serves a board that oversees his work. I do not know what accountability meaasures Flip has in place but RT's history of financial mismanagement is well-documented by both Christian and secular media.

reply from: chailife

I don't know if Newman's (or, if he has one, Flip's) accountabilty board is paid or not. Most people who answer to a boss answer to a boss (or a board) that gets paid. My boss gets paid and I am accountable to her.
As for my interest in this topic - first, I do not work for ORW, OSA or RT in any capacity. When I am not working my day job, I write. I have a strong interest in pro-life issues especially related to the rescue movement. I agree that there has been some corruption in the movement and am deeply troubled by the whole lawsuit mess.
I have done a lot of reading on the history of pro-life activism and find the whole notion that any one person can claim to "be" Operation Rescue or can claim that it was all his doing offensive. I am currrently working on a piece that details some of the "firsts" in the rescue movement. I was surprised to learn that many aspects of rescue that have normally been attributed to RT were actually originated years or even decades before. I was also surprised by the leftists roots of the movement - the first activists came out of the anti-Vietnam war and the civil-rights movements. The idea behind 'direct action' sit-ins as they were called back then was that women should be the main participants with men serving only a peripheral role outside the abortion mills.
How about you? What is your interest in this particular thread?

reply from: faithman

Troy has some personal property as well, and since he has no "real job," I must assume donations pay for everything. I don't see much difference between any of these people who make their living off the abortion issue. I don't trust them to ever kill their golden goose. Fboy has personal allegiance to Troy, so it's no wonder he defends him. It is my understanding that Fboy also has no "real job," so I assume he lives off donations as well. I posted a collection of damning quotes from this forum once, but the moderator deleted them. Don't kid yourself. There are a bunch of people who have hidden agendas, many of whom are idolized by other prolifers. Statistically, it is quite impossible that all of them are honest. Some were always slackers who were never successful, others were used car salesmen and the like. I don't trust any of them.
You understand incorrectly. I have never taken a dime from pro-life, and if you start your slander again, I will not stop the mod from banning you from the forum this time. All you have posted is lies and inuindo. What the mod deleted was your lies, and nothing else. You are a punk convict ,and nothing you post here is believable.

reply from: chailife

If you don't have an interest in this particular thread, why are you posting on it?
As for your participation in so many other threads, I must ask - where do you find the time? I have time today because I have a day off from work but most days I work, attend school, write, study, take care of things like housecleaning, bill-paying and the other minutae of life and still try to find time for friends. I can't imagine doing all that and posting at "hundreds" of threads. I admire your stamina!
As for what you take with "a grain of salt", it doesn't appear, judging from your posts, tnat you trust anyone so I take no offense to your lack of trust in me. Thinking the worst of people is a pretty sad way to go through life.
One of the many mitzvot encouraged in Judaism is to judge people favorably even in spite of apparent clear indications to the contrary. It's a hard one to carry out; especially when the person in question has hurt you before, but it is a worthy trait to develop. I'll admit I have some work to do on that one.

reply from: nancyu

Troy has some personal property as well, and since he has no "real job," I must assume donations pay for everything. I don't see much difference between any of these people who make their living off the abortion issue. I don't trust them to ever kill their golden goose. Fboy has personal allegiance to Troy, so it's no wonder he defends him. It is my understanding that Fboy also has no "real job," so I assume he lives off donations as well. I posted a collection of damning quotes from this forum once, but the moderator deleted them. Don't kid yourself. There are a bunch of people who have hidden agendas, many of whom are idolized by other prolifers. Statistically, it is quite impossible that all of them are honest. Some were always slackers who were never successful, others were used car salesmen and the like. I don't trust any of them.
To set the record straight on faithman, he has sent me IAAP material and never asked for a dime. He even offered to help with postage in order to distribute them. When I first came here, I asked faithman if he was getting a commission on IAAP. He does not. He reproduces them at his own expense, and all he asks in return is reports on their use.

reply from: sander

I was never asked for a dime, either. He's even sent me a wonderful poster, never even asked, never mind paid for anything.
Some people are just so full of sour grapes, and live sour lives they can't help themselves in posting these kind of lies against Faithman.
So, CP just assumes...you can see what he made out of himself.

reply from: faithman

Troy has some personal property as well, and since he has no "real job," I must assume donations pay for everything. I don't see much difference between any of these people who make their living off the abortion issue. I don't trust them to ever kill their golden goose. Fboy has personal allegiance to Troy, so it's no wonder he defends him. It is my understanding that Fboy also has no "real job," so I assume he lives off donations as well. I posted a collection of damning quotes from this forum once, but the moderator deleted them. Don't kid yourself. There are a bunch of people who have hidden agendas, many of whom are idolized by other prolifers. Statistically, it is quite impossible that all of them are honest. Some were always slackers who were never successful, others were used car salesmen and the like. I don't trust any of them.
To set the record straight on faithman, he has sent me IAAP material and never asked for a dime. He even offered to help with postage in order to distribute them. When I first came here, I asked faithman if he was getting a commission on IAAP. He does not. He reproduces them at his own expense, and all he asks in return is reports on their use.
When I was in prison, I asked many men if they had actually committed the crimes they were convicted of. Funny how dishonest people can't just be taken at their word...I don't think you have the whole story. You probably never will. Every time I post proof of his dishonesty, it is deleted from the forum. Go figure...You don't think I just make this stuff up, do you?
Yes, you just make this stuff up. You take half truths and twist words into lies. Enough is enough. No you are a sore head punk who can't take the fact that I bested you several times at your own game. The reason your crap has been deleted from this forum is because people at LDI know it to be lies. You are a very little person, and really not worth the time to answere the evil that you smear on this board. By by, and have a nice life.

reply from: faithman

What mind? The only thing ratteling around in your empty head, is the echo of an out of control ego.

reply from: yoda

It's such a relief not to have to see all those bitter attacks from him/her, over and over.......

reply from: sander

"It is my understanding that Fboy also has no "real job," so I assume he lives off donations as well."
Right...you assume nothing. LOL!
Your own words convict you.
If you climbed down off your high horse maybe it would improve your vision. I don't know how you reach the keyboard in the first place.
The moderator here is extremley lenient and you know it. They draw the line time to time with out right lies and slander.
If you ever, ever get over yourself you might understand why.

reply from: yoda

What an odd criticism...... either s/he does not consider being a full time prolife activist a "real job", or s/he does not think that people like full time preachers ought to live on contributions. What should they live on, graft? Should they rob convenience stores to get by?

reply from: sander

What an odd criticism...... either s/he does not consider being a full time prolife activist a "real job", or s/he does not think that people like full time preachers ought to live on contributions. What should they live on, graft? Should they rob convenience stores to get by?
It isn't "odd" to those with an agenda.

reply from: galen

you know.. i've never knows FM to take $$ for the cards.. infact i've heard of him giving them away for practically nothing..
I don't like FM particulary, but this claok and dagger stuff is getting a bit weird..
why not get back to talking about abortion?

reply from: faithman

What an odd criticism...... either s/he does not consider being a full time prolife activist a "real job", or s/he does not think that people like full time preachers ought to live on contributions. What should they live on, graft? Should they rob convenience stores to get by?
Besides the fact, as I have stated over and over again, that I have neve used a dime of IAAP funds for personal use. Not that it is really anybodies business, but I have A VA medical pension, and have a small remodel business. My wife is also a well paid admin for a Goverment agentcy. CP twisted a post where I said that I paid for a run of cards out of my own pocket, and made a specific post into a general statement. We do get a donation from time to time. But most of it goes into our fair both, and what ever is left over goes into material production. Crutcher does not recieve a dime from anything given for IAAP. It is actually his example of generousity that has encouraged us to make our material available to folks at no cost. Actually, not only have they made our efforts prosper with the free use of this forum, but they have actually give us free material for our fair booth, and have given stuff free to other groups as well. CP is a petty vendictive secular humanist, who will throw the womb child under the bus if they get into the way of his self promotion as the most "evolved intelect" on the planet. I would not bother to even answere his word twisting half truth lies, except I don't want his crap to hurt a truely grass roots effort to defend womb children from the killers. But yall can believe who ever. A loud mouthed convict punk who does little else that post self promotion drivel on a forum, or someone who stands ready to send you free material. And yes, every now and again I let folks know they can contribute if the feel like it. And they can rest assured that every penny will go into production and postage, as we make one of the most effective weapons in the cause of womb life available to the front. But thats just me...

reply from: yoda

But my point is.... what if you had? When anyone advocates for their political or social POV, and spends money to do that, why should anyone be shocked if they also depend upon contributions to get by? I just don't see what is negative about that..... the more contributions you get, the more time and money and effort you can put into your advocacy..... where the hell is there anything wrong with that? Isn't that the "American way"?
Now if someone is using charitable donations for luxurious or wasteful living, that's a whole different kind of scandal... that's "misappropriation" of funds.
But to criticize someone for using contributions to defray ordinary living expenses is simply ludicrous. It's petty, vindictive, and downright nasty.

reply from: sander

CP stands alone, knee deep in his garbage.
You've given too much of the IAAP material away for anyone to believe his boat load of "assumptions".
And why it's any of his business in the first place is beyond understanding. Just another thread he can re-read his posts in wonderment of his percieved intellecutal prowess, I suppose. *shurg*

reply from: sander

That's a good summation. Jealousy might fit in there somewhere too.

reply from: sander

Is this a good place for "forescore and 7"?

reply from: faithman

But my point is.... what if you had? When anyone advocates for their political or social POV, and spends money to do that, why should anyone be shocked if they also depend upon contributions to get by? I just don't see what is negative about that..... the more contributions you get, the more time and money and effort you can put into your advocacy..... where the hell is there anything wrong with that? Isn't that the "American way"?
Now if someone is using charitable donations for luxurious or wasteful living, that's a whole different kind of scandal... that's "misappropriation" of funds.
But to criticize someone for using contributions to defray ordinary living expenses is simply ludicrous. It's petty, vindictive, and downright nasty.
I apreciate what you say, and I don't have a prob with those who use some funds for everyday living needs if they are full time. But the issue here is CP's lies that I use money from IAAP for personal use. In this case, that simply isn't true. I have never used a single dime for personal use. And as I said, and it was distorted by CP, alot of times I make material up solely out of my own pocket. I never stated anywhere that we did not get donations. He took a specific statement and turned it into a general one. The post in question were slander and lies, and twisted half truths. That is why they were deleted. Anybody who has been here long knows the mod very rarely deletes posts. They have to be pretty bad for him to do so. Cp's posts were deleted because they were patently false, and endangered privacy.

reply from: faithman

What an odd criticism...... either s/he does not consider being a full time prolife activist a "real job", or s/he does not think that people like full time preachers ought to live on contributions. What should they live on, graft? Should they rob convenience stores to get by?
Besides the fact, as I have stated over and over again, that I have never used a dime of IAAP funds for personal use. Not that it is really anybodies business, but I have A VA medical pension, and have a small remodel business. My wife is also a well paid admin for a Goverment agentcy. CP twisted a post where I said that I paid for a run of cards out of my own pocket, and made a specific post into a general statement. We do get a donation from time to time. But most of it goes into our fair both, and what ever is left over goes into material production. Crutcher does not recieve a dime from anything given for IAAP. It is actually his example of generousity that has encouraged us to make our material available to folks at no cost. Actually, not only have they made our efforts prosper with the free use of this forum, but they have actually give us free material for our fair booth, and have given stuff free to other groups as well. CP is a petty vendictive secular humanist, who will throw the womb child under the bus if they get into the way of his self promotion as the most "evolved intelect" on the planet. I would not bother to even answere his word twisting half truth lies, except I don't want his crap to hurt a truely grass roots effort to defend womb children from the killers. But yall can believe who ever. A loud mouthed convict punk who does little else that post self promotion drivel on a forum, or someone who stands ready to send you free material. And yes, every now and again I let folks know they can contribute if the feel like it. And they can rest assured that every penny will go into production and postage, as we make one of the most effective weapons in the cause of womb life available to the front. But thats just me...

reply from: faithman

I don't see how giving stuff away can possibly be construed as a defense for his dishonesty. He claimed he paid for the stuff himself and never asked for contributions, but that was not true, and I proved it. That has nothing to do with whether or not he has given away material. He spoke of a sponsor with "deep pockets" and I directly quoted the statement. I do not see how any reasonable person could have read the thread and failed to arrive at the same conclusions I did. If you didn't read it before it was deleted, you are not qualified to defend him. If you did get to read it before the evidence disappeared, I can not for the life of me understand how you could deny that he lied. I do not understand how you could not question his integrity. Why would he lie about this if he had nothing to hide? I can't possibly be the only one who has wondered about this. I think it natural to be suspicious under these circumstances.
We also know that Fboy has worked with Troy, and that there are personal associations that influence some posters' "opinions" on issues like the Newman lawsuit, and there is an element of bias involved. Once more, the integrity of some comes into question regarding their views, which are obviously affected by personal loyalties.
Some who defend Fboy now seem to be doing so more out of a misplaced sense of loyalty than any semblance of reason....
Because I didn't lie jerk, and have already explained how you twisted specific post into general statements, which is most assuredly dishonest and a lie. So just keep it up. every one can see what a idiot you are. Your posts were deleted because they were false.

reply from: faithman

What an odd criticism...... either s/he does not consider being a full time prolife activist a "real job", or s/he does not think that people like full time preachers ought to live on contributions. What should they live on, graft? Should they rob convenience stores to get by?
Besides the fact, as I have stated over and over again, that I have neve used a dime of IAAP funds for personal use. Not that it is really anybodies business, but I have A VA medical pension, and have a small remodel business. My wife is also a well paid admin for a Goverment agentcy. CP twisted a post where I said that I paid for a run of cards out of my own pocket, and made a specific post into a general statement. We do get a donation from time to time. But most of it goes into our fair both, and what ever is left over goes into material production. Crutcher does not recieve a dime from anything given for IAAP. It is actually his example of generousity that has encouraged us to make our material available to folks at no cost. Actually, not only have they made our efforts prosper with the free use of this forum, but they have actually give us free material for our fair booth, and have given stuff free to other groups as well. CP is a petty vendictive secular humanist, who will throw the womb child under the bus if they get into the way of his self promotion as the most "evolved intelect" on the planet. I would not bother to even answere his word twisting half truth lies, except I don't want his crap to hurt a truely grass roots effort to defend womb children from the killers. But yall can believe who ever. A loud mouthed convict punk who does little else that post self promotion drivel on a forum, or someone who stands ready to send you free material. And yes, every now and again I let folks know they can contribute if the feel like it. And they can rest assured that every penny will go into production and postage, as we make one of the most effective weapons in the cause of womb life available to the front. But thats just me...
You specifically stated that you paid for all the materials out of your own pocket, and that you had never asked for contributions. I directly quoted your claim in your own words, then posted two direct quotes, also in your own words, where you asked for contributions.
This is patently false. I was talking about a specific run of cards that I did completely pay for, as I have several times. I have never used one dime for personal use, and you have no gripe as you have never contributed to it anyway. I never said that I never asked for contributions. Once again you use a half truth. I said that I never asked for a contribution from those I sent cards to for free. I have always left it open for folks to contribute if they felt like it. but I have never charged anyone for material. The site you speak nof was set up by others, not me. I have never charged anyone on this site for cards. No you take things out of their context and make up twisted lies with it. Which is what you would rather do than actually do something that defends womb children.

reply from: faithman

But my point is.... what if you had? When anyone advocates for their political or social POV, and spends money to do that, why should anyone be shocked if they also depend upon contributions to get by? I just don't see what is negative about that..... the more contributions you get, the more time and money and effort you can put into your advocacy..... where the hell is there anything wrong with that? Isn't that the "American way"?
Now if someone is using charitable donations for luxurious or wasteful living, that's a whole different kind of scandal... that's "misappropriation" of funds.
But to criticize someone for using contributions to defray ordinary living expenses is simply ludicrous. It's petty, vindictive, and downright nasty.
I apreciate what you say, and I don't have a prob with those who use some funds for everyday living needs if they are full time. But the issue here is CP's lies that I use money from IAAP for personal use. In this case, that simply isn't true. I have never used a single dime for personal use. And as I said, and it was distorted by CP, alot of times I make material up solely out of my own pocket. I never stated anywhere that we did not get donations. He took a specific statement and turned it into a general one. The post in question were slander and lies, and twisted half truths. That is why they were deleted. Anybody who has been here long knows the mod very rarely deletes posts. They have to be pretty bad for him to do so. Cp's posts were deleted because they were patently false, and endangered privacy.
I did not say you use money from IAAP for personal use. I do not know, nor claim to know. I have suspicions, which were primarily raised by your denial that you had ever solicited or accepted contributions when that was easily proven a lie by your own requests for contributions on this forum. You also spoke of financial difficulties at the time we had our little "dispute." I think I have valid reasons to question your integrity, and feel justified in my concerns, especially since you do indeed solicit donations from the public. You certainly claimed in the past that only your own funds were used for materials, and the many contradictions in your statements are reason enough to be suspicious.
Also, the only reasons given for deleting my posts was that they were "off-topic," other than the single post where I pointed out that you had revealed your true identity. Only you and some of your blind defenders ever implied that any statement I made was "false," and since I quoted you directly, that was obviously not the case. I did not simply claim you lied, I posted the lies verbatim and linked to the pages where the statements were made...
you go right back to your twisted lies again. You make general statements from specific coments which is patently dishonest. Every statemnet you have made here is a twisted half truth lie. You never posted me verbatim, as you are not now. As i have said over and over again. the last few runs of cards were made completely from my money. I never said that I never got donations. I merely asid that specific run of cards was paid for by me. I never said that I did not ask for donations. What was said is, that I never asked for nor charged anyone for the material I sent out for free. You are posts patently dishonest half truth lies. You have no facts to back you up because your accusations are baseless.

reply from: sander

That's a good summation. Jealousy might fit in there somewhere too.
It always comes down to this, doesn't it? Select posters who really have nothing to add will simply attempt to "dog pile" a poster who dares question a member of the clique, choosing to engage in unbased attacks against that poster's character rather than address the actual issue. So you guys have a poor opinion of me? That does not change the fact that Fboy has shown himself to be dishonest, does it? If you think attacking me is a valid defense of Fboy, knock yourselves out. Note that, although I resent your irrational objections to my speaking the truth, I will never "lie" about you (or anyone else) in retribution. I have not said anything that is not true, and I defy you to prove otherwise. Fboy, on the other hand, has proven himself to be dishonest, regardless of who attempts to deny it.
Egads man, you're making a huge mountain out of a mole hill....there has to be some rational explanation for making yourself look loopy.

reply from: galen

i think this whole back and forth is kinda off...* shrug*

reply from: MC3

To All Forum Participants.
I want to apologize to you for a mistake we made. There were indeed portions of some posts written by CP that were deleted. This should not have happened. Yes, CP was dishonest in some of the things he implied. In fact, his suggestion of a conspiracy in which I financially profit from materials that someone else produces and gives away for free is not only irrational, but contemptible. For the record, let me be clear and succinct: anyone who thinks I committed my life to the cause of the unborn in order to make money - as this person has implied on several occasions - is a certifiable idiot.
Having said that, however, we had no right to censor him. After all, an enormous percentage of the statements posted here by the pro-choice crowd are obvious lies and we do not delete them. Instead, they are included for the specific purpose of having them exposed. And that same standard should also apply to deceptions committed by people who claim to be pro-life. Moreover, this principle must remain in place whether the deception was created through benign ignorance or, as in this particular case, an absence of character.
I have always wanted this forum to be an open marketplace of ideas and, for that reason, our policy has been to censor only those posts which (a) reveal personal identifying information, (b) contain a threat, (c) are being used for some purely commercial purpose, or (d) include pornographic language or descriptions. That guideline was breeched in this case and the measures necessary to prevent a reoccurrence have been taken.
Again, I apologize for this error on our part.

reply from: galen

thx for the update.. can you get rid of lowlita for what she did to FM...that was pretty bad.. especially as it was NOT Faithman.

reply from: yoda

Well, I disagree with your first statement. As owners of this forum, you have the right to censor anyone you want to. This action may have be contrary to your policy, but that also is within your rights. But I agree with the last two sentences, emphatically.

reply from: faithman

That's a good summation. Jealousy might fit in there somewhere too.
It always comes down to this, doesn't it? Select posters who really have nothing to add will simply attempt to "dog pile" a poster who dares question a member of the clique, choosing to engage in unbased attacks against that poster's character rather than address the actual issue. So you guys have a poor opinion of me? That does not change the fact that Fboy has shown himself to be dishonest, does it? If you think attacking me is a valid defense of Fboy, knock yourselves out. Note that, although I resent your irrational objections to my speaking the truth, I will never "lie" about you (or anyone else) in retribution. I have not said anything that is not true, and I defy you to prove otherwise. Fboy, on the other hand, has proven himself to be dishonest, regardless of who attempts to deny it.
Egads man, you're making a huge mountain out of a mole hill....there has to be some rational explanation for making yourself look loopy.
Loopy? So did you read the evidence I provided before it was deleted (another "mistake," no doubt....) in that thread from months back or not? You don't want to answer that one, despite having offered your opinion on it?
Your deleted post, as has been explained several times, were false. You have proved nothing. Not a single thing you imply is true. But keep blathering on. Everyone who is involved with what we are doing knows you are lying, speaking half truths, and twist words into what was never said. You have no proof because there never was any. But keep on lying, maybe folks can see what you really are. A phony.

reply from: faithman

Watch all you want to little boy. All you did was use half truths and twisted words into what was never said. I don't have to watch my step at all. I never did any of the things you implied, and that is why your lying behind can not back up a word of your childish games. Poor little thing wants to play all grown up but has failed miserably. WWWWWOOOOOO like I am suppose to be scared the big bad convict is watching. The only thing you proved is how pathetic you really are.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Don't sweat the small stuff. CP is only trying to provoke. Don't play into it.
Faithman - have a new web site I've been working on. Truth and satire rolled into one. You will love it. Sending link via PM.

reply from: chailife

Okay, now that we've established that CP and Faithman don't see eye-to-eye, can we get back to the topic at hand? If I'm not mistaken, we were talking about whether Flip (or, for that matter, Randy) has a legitimate claim to the Operation Rescue name.

reply from: faithman

Niether does. They both abandoned it, and the internet is full of sites with their own words to that effect.

reply from: faithman

Sorry dude. I didn't realize you wanted it held back for a while. Troy e-mailed it to me this morning and I posted it here already, under accurate history of OR. If you like, I will edit it out. It already is a very good piece, and I can't wait to see the finished product. Usually I don't let CP bother me at all. But is consant lies and mistruths do hurt what we are trying to do with IAAP. There is absolutely no validity to what he has said. If it were just me, no big woop. I dish it out just as much as I take. But IAAP aint just me. There are many involved, and they don't deserve to have what we have been able acomplished soiled by monkey dung. Baboon brains can attack me all he wants, and it really doesn't make a difference. But attacking IAAP is like attacking a child. I have to defend it everytime. He just chose to do it here to disrupt this thred, because he is also a Troy hater. But I am bond to defend IAAP as you would defend one of your own children. You don't really care about anything else when the need arises. No one has ever gotten a dime from the till for personal use in IAAP. This issue with TRoy comes a very close second. He has been very generous to us. I have seen both groups in action. OSA leadership are punks as far as I am concerned. Troy is a true servant.

reply from: chailife

If you judge the three men solely by the fruits of their ministries and their public statements, it seems clear that each represents a different level of commitment to the unborn.
Flip changed the name of the organization to incorporate an expanded vision. By his own admission, he has put issues such as homosexuality, public displays of the Ten Commandments and child pornography on an equal plane with protecting the unborn. Naturally, this will mean that the percentage of time Flip and OSA spend on behalf of the unborn is diminished.
Troy and his group are focused on ending abortion in Wichita with a recognition that what happens in Wichita towards ending abortion can have a larger impact on nationwide efforts to put an end to the child-killing. There is historcial precedence of this as "bleeding" Kansas was also a key battleground state in determining the slavery issue.
As for RT, he has recently done an interview for Playboy and released a video to YouTube bemoaning the lack of leadership in the pro-life movement. He has written a book directed to clergy about the abortion issue as well. In the past, he was used of God to bring many Christians out of their churches and to the places where the killing occurs. More recent efforts on his part to bring Christians back out into the streets (specifically the ORXX event in Philadelphia) have failed.
Whether the things being said about him in regards to his personal character are true or not, the fact is RT has a large credibility problem. Writing lengthy, sarcastic diatribes in which he calls other pro-lifers "Cannibals for Christ" and rebukes them for not being submitted to the authority of the Catholic Church are not helping him re-establish credibililty.
This whole debate boils down to credibility. Putting the financial aspects of the contest over the name aside, each person and thier organizations represents a different level of credibility. How they handle their finances can only add to or take away from that.
Troy, in one of his public messages, said that he would allow any pro-lifer to examine his financial records. Is there anyone in this forum who has taken him up on that? If so, can you comment on whether or not he is being a good steward?

RT has openly talked about things he has bought in interviews such as the one he gave the NY Times a few years back. Since he doesn't have a "real job" (to quote another poster), can we assume that he used donor money to buy his house, a statue of a dragon he had commissioned and a guitar he named Guinevere? (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07...on/20TERR.html)
<br ">http://www.nytimes.com.../07.....0TERR.html)
Flip's financial management is something of an unknown. If anyone posting to this forum has factual informaiton (not just speculation) on how Flip and OSA use donor money, can you shed some light on whether or not he uses donor money in a responsible fashion?
So my question is this, of the three, who best represents the original vision of OR and, based on their current efforts, can carry that vision into the future?

reply from: yoda

There's a problem with your link. You can edit it if you have the original.
I'm really more impressed by what Troy has done in Kansas, and what OR is continuing to do. And he isn't tearing anyone else down to get it done.
I think that pretty much speaks for itself. The other two malcontents could use the names they have presently to do good things in the prolife movement, and then they wouldn't need the "prestige" of the OR name. If they really wanted to help the babies, they would be concentrating on that, rather than on "property rights" to the OR name.
ANY name can be lifted up, or brought down, by the owner of the name. It seems to me that of the three, only Troy is lifting up the name he is using.

reply from: chailife

Sorry about the link problem. I've never been good with that sort of thing. I have the entire text of the article in my research files but it would be an even longer post than my previous one.
RT tries to paint a picture of himself as a suffering servant on his OR theft website; a servant being unjustly attacked by so-called "Cannibals for Christ" solely because he divorced his first wife. His writing gets meaner and meaner with each chapter of the tale. Even if he does have a legitimate case against Troy, he is gaining little sympathy by the way he is treating Troy in print.
Personally, I think RT left his first love (and, by this is am referring to Christ - not his first wife or the babies) a long time ago despite his church affiliation. I would love to see him submit himself to Christ in true repentance, drop the suit and join arms with those who are truly working on behalf of the unborn.

reply from: nancyu

Try this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/20/nyregion/20TERR.html

reply from: faithman

Try this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/20/nyregion/20TERR.html

reply from: IYAOYAS

OSA finances. I don't know that they bring much money in. That may be the rub with Flip against Troy. There is a very small donor base for pro-life work, and it got smaller for him when Troy stayed in Wichita.
I realize that ministries need money to operate, but what is wrong with making tents (getting a job) like the Apostle Paul did? That's what I do!

reply from: faithman

THANK YOU!!!! That is what we do as well. No paid employeez. All of our money goes into the work. As apposed to our local CARENET that pays the ex. director $60,000 a year. If we had that kinda cash, we would just about chase PP out of town.

reply from: chailife

Gosh, remember the days when it used to be about living as frugally as possible so you were freer to do things to actually stop the killing rather than make a killing?
I think RT aka New Guy Gorilla is finally getting the message that people do not support his current actions. He has yet to post part three of his Lord of the Names trilogy on the OR theft website and is not exactly making himself available to the activist community except through "anonymous" postings on debate forums, blogs and websites.
Re: Flip: Did you ever notice Re: Flip spelled backwards is pilfer...kind of like what Flip would like to do to Newman's donor base.

reply from: chailife

Troy Newman's ministry at work - over the weekend, one of his Truth Trucks went to St. Louis and parked at a Planned Parenthood mill. The staff closed the gates so the truck could not leave. What was intended to be a drive-by viewing of the truck ended up being a lengthy witness as the staff refused to let him leave until the police arrived and said PP had no basis for keeping him there.
I'd post the link to the article but, based on my prior history of link-posting, I will leave that task to someone else.

reply from: yoda

Here ya go : http://www.operationrescue.org/?p=995

It IS pretty funny......

reply from: sander

HA-HA!
Not to mention if they locked the gates that probably kept out the women scheduled to kill their children! It's nice to see the strong arm tactics of the militant proaborts back fire!!

reply from: faithman

Not to mention if they locked the gates that probably kept out the women scheduled to kill their children! It's nice to see the strong arm tactics of the militant proaborts back fire!!
Like a one legged man in a butt kicking contest. The more they try to strike, the more they fall on their behind.

reply from: Redhead

New Guy,
I KNOW you- your writing style gives you away ,Randy Terry.
You may be fooling some newbies, but those of us that know you- recognize
you, well!
To ALL: Please no not hit Randy's link- he uses a hit-counter for his own
satisfaction and publicity.
Flip the Switch has just been exposed ,also.
Troy is the only one of you 3 who takes the High Road, which is commendable.
He does not need to defend himself.
Take a lesson, guys. Some of us KNOW you all- Shame, shame....Randy!

reply from: chailife

I'm pretty sure New Guy/Gorilla is RT because he posted on my personal blog and the writing style (and arguments) are identical. Interestingly enough, the coward stopped posting once he realized we were on to his game.
RT is making a very persuasive argument to the pro-life community on exactly why he should not get to use the OR name again! The activists are sick of all the backbiting and game-playing that he and Flip/Flop Benham engage in.
This said, I would be delighted if they each came to true repentence and decided to put their energies back into working on behalf of the unborn (and, no, dog and pony shows like the recent Atlanta event don't count).

reply from: chailife

So CP, where do you stand on this issue? After all, if none of the opinions on this thread are unbiased, you, too, must favor one person or group over another as well.

reply from: IYAOYAS

I guess that means CP and I are the only ones left who are totally unbiased.

reply from: yoda

Wow, that's a very exclusive "group"!!

reply from: IYAOYAS

Quite right. I am president of Unbiased World Outreach International. We are a faith-based biasless ministry, which reaches out to the biased and opinionated in todays church.
Our first outreach to the Spanish community was not a complete success. The Cubans are biased against the Puerto Ricans, who are biased against the Domincans - while all other Spanish speaking nations are biased against the Mexicans. It was not good.
Still, CP and I are reaching out - and hope to soon have the Serbians and Croatians back together again.
Will let you know when that happens.

reply from: chailife

I have firsthand experience with both RT and Flip. I have attended events conducted by both men and could tell you some very disturbing stories about things that went on "behind the scenes".
I have never met Troy Newman but have read a lot about his work. Recently, Newman responded to several postings on my personal blog to address some very pointed questions and concerns I had about his claims to the OR name. He responded personally and under his own name which is far more than I can say for certain 'gorillas' who post anonymously.
I favor the work Newman is doing because, of the three, his is the only one that seems to be bearing good fruits on a consistent basis. However, I was delighted to hear that some pro-lifers from Louisiana were able to witness to an abortion mill worker during the Atlanta event and help her come to salvation and leave the business.
If I tend to favor Newman it is for good reason. His works speak for themselves and, when questioned, even indirectly, about his ministry, he addresses the issues raised.
You have never really answered my previous question on the issue of money. Is it the fact that people on both sides of the issue are making money off it or the fact that, in your mind, folks like Benham, Terry and Newman don't seem to have 'real jobs'?
Asking recipients of donations to be accountable for their use is reasonable. Making condemnations of people for making money as a result of the abortion issue is ridiculous esepcially since you don't see fit to condemn those on the pro-abortion side of the issue for making money off dead babies.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Chailife -
I am of the unbiased. CP and I will seek to work with you.
Drink this first.
Now .... waiting ... were you abused as a chiild? Did mommy and daddy fight a lot? Were racial and biological terms used regularly? Are you of Spanish decent?
We might be able to help you. CP is fluent in Spanish, while I am fluent in unbiasuanese. We can ferrot those bias demons which haunt you. Our third partner, Todd Bentley is doing thus in Florida at this time though only in English. CP will be translating.
Help is on the way!

reply from: carolemarie

]
Why do you feel a need to take sides?
Let them duke it out. They are all three big boys capable of taking care of themselves. I don't care who gets the name.
Troy was smart enough to trademark it so he wins.
Lets move on.....

reply from: chailife

As a person who rescued with OR, the name has a certain meaning to myself and, undoubtedly, many others. OR at its best was an organization committed to taking the rights of the unborn seriously to the point of risking our own freedom to defend them. While many of us are no longe in a position to dedicate ourselves full-time to the unborn, we would like to know that the vision is still carried out in some way or another.
My contention has been that, of the three men, Newman has stayed closest to the original vision of OR. My fear is that RT, were he to get the right back to use the name OR, would use it to raise money for purposes other than pro-life efforts. This belief is based on what Terry has been doing with donor money for the past decade or so. It is also based on the fact that Terry has yet to provide financial accountability for past monies gained by the use of donor letters. World Magazine did an expose' of Terry's financial mismanagement as did Patrick S. Poole (whose article can be found on the OSA website under the name Please Pull Randy's Feeding Tube).
My disdain for Flip is more personal due to attacks he has leveled against me. However, he both condemns RT for a laundry list of sins and commends him for his efforts to "expose" Troy Newman. Flip's disdain for Newman is well-documented on the OSA site as is his condemnation of Terry.
Right now the name is in the hands of someone who seems to be financially transparent and can point to specific things his group is doing on behalf of the unborn. Were the name to fall back into Terry's hands, I fear many good people will be deceived, as were many in the past, into thinking the money they donate is going towards the cause of the unborn. As mentioned earlier, RT's history of financial mismanagement is pretty well-documented and he has yet to repent of his conduct in this area. Giving RT the use of the OR name would be like giving the fox the key to the henhouse.
They may be three grown men but their actions could negatively impact many well-meaning donors.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Could it be that CP is also CM (carolemarie)? I did not know that.
CP and I - the UNbiased - with have to discuss this. Call me darling!

reply from: IYAOYAS

Is it your intention to simply sit in the back row and act the fool? If you have something to say to me, just say it. Sing out like you have a pair.
Dudedess ... after all we have failed to do together? Sigh ... you think you know a spanish-speaking guy wearing a false wig ... only to find out you don't know him/her/it.
Sigh ... the Unbiased International Ministry will have to continue on without you. And I thought we had something special together.
BTW ... the locks look fabulous honey!

reply from: chailife

My primary concerns are related to ties with anti-abortion violence and those who condone and commit it. I do also have concerns about financial issues, and sincerely believe that it can represent a serious conflict of interests in some cases. Many "prolife leaders" would find themselves out of well paying jobs were the issue to be resolved, and so I believe it is prudent to examine these issues thoroughly, especially before making contributions.
Are you saying then that each person in this dispute has present-day ties to anti-abortion violence? To the best of my knowledge, OR has always remained committed as a group to non-violence. Does that mean there aren't people who were involved in rescue who later got involved in more violent activities or that people who might have been formally involved in violence may have since repented and gotten involved in OR? Of course not, but this can be said of any number of groups. A friend of mine who uses a wheelchair recently received a death threat from a fellow member of a movie discussion group. Does this mean everyone who discusses movies is tied to "anti-wheelchair-user-violence"? Seems like a stretch to me...
You still refuse to address the fact that many "pro-choice" leaders also make their living off the abortion issue and woud lose their jobs if abortion became illegal. In their case, there is absolutely no doubt they engage in anti-child violence in word or deed or both. They freely admit they support actions that result in dead children!
I will not support Benham, Terry, or Newman because of other agendas, all else aside. I oppose legal abortion on demand, and so appreciate the efforts of all who agree with me on that point, but can not, in good conscience, actually support the ones who threaten civil liberties that do not involve harming unborn children or anyone else, based on their religious beliefs.
In what way do Benham, Terry and Newman threaten civil liberties? What "other agendas" do you object to? I agree that Benham and Terry have both been involved in non-abortion related issues and this forms part of my belief that, of the three, Newman has stuck closest to the original OR vision of taking the rights of the unborn child seriously and without discrimination.
Maybe you can give us some examples of people and groups whose efforts you do support so we can better understand your opposition to Terry, Benham and Newman?

reply from: yoda

Hey..... that looks like grape KoolAid!!

reply from: MC3

This ongoing "Am Not - Am Too!" argument about bias is tiresome and silly. The issue is not whether someone's opinion is biased or not but whether it is true or not. It is entirely possible for someone to be completely blinded by bias on any subject and still turn out to be right. In fact, it happens millions of times every day all over the world. The reality is, bias is something we each have, seldom admit, and always revile in others.
In the final analysis, bias - and its kissing cousin prejudice - are a part of human nature. But we must never forget one of the things that separate man from all other living creatures. Simply put, we alone have the ability - and often the responsibility - to rise above our own nature. The tragedy is that, from the beginning of time, most of mankind's problems resulted from our failure to do so. And no better example of that exists than legalized abortion. So I suggest we concentrate on that.

reply from: IYAOYAS

While what you wrote is correct, it is still biased. No worries ... this is why CP and I are here to correct these sorts of problems. We are the Unbiased.
That being said ... does my calling you biased - make me biased?
Crap ...
OK ... CP and I are the "Nearly Unbiased." I think that will work!

reply from: carolemarie

I thought you all rescued in response to God's call on your life? If so then the only name that mattered ought to be Gods and all the rest doesn't matter...
It really is time to move on....

reply from: IYAOYAS

When a brother or sister is attacked, we defend them. That is what Randall Terry taught us. Now that Terry is attacking Troy Newman, we defend our brother.
Famous RT quotes:
PAST:
"Remember, Operation Rescue is not a building or even merely an organization. It is a call to repent."
-Randall Terry, letter to supporters, October 15, 1990
"This movement is more than me; it's bigger than me. If I dropped over dead tomorrow, this movement would go right on moving without me."
-Randall Terry, The Wichita Eagle, April 22, 1992

PRESENT:
"Without Randall Terry, there is no Operation Rescue."
-Randall Terry, Operation Rescue Identity Theft, spring 2008

reply from: chailife

There is still the issue of money. If the OR name returns to RT, there is the very real possibility, based on his past history, that he will use it to raise money for his personal use rather than for pro-life work. Well-meaing people who oppose abortion are in danger of being bilked just as many Christians were bilked by televangelists some years back.
Even if you care to disagree with any or all the other reasons why people find this whole matter troublesome, you should be concerned for those who could very well be scammed by Terry in the future.
This said, if RT were to make a true repentence and return previous ill-gotten gains, I might be more inclined to let the matter lie. As long as he continues to use unscrupulous means to line his pockets, I will continue to speak out.

reply from: IYAOYAS

That will never happen. Randall Terry has already laid out his game plan. He is going after the youth. See: Operation Rescue - Insurrecta NEX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFPm6Ri0VQo
He sang the same song 20 years ago.
He is after those who "don't know" about him - the youth. Fortunately, there are enough of us old dinosaurs who do know him - who refuse to simply go quietly into the night.
This is the reason threads like this are important. They warn the next generation. Being forewarned is being forearmed.

reply from: IYAOYAS

Note the video responses by "Flyladykd." These are planted comments - and no more comments can be added. Try it and see!
Try rating the video. There are only 4 ratings - so it should not be that hard to change! Bet you can't

reply from: chailife

So there's a snake in the garden ready to strike at pro-life youth and bilk unsuspecting Christians? C'mon IYAOYAS, it really is time to move on...

reply from: IYAOYAS

You are quite right Chailife.
BTW ... I'm not a psychic or anything, but if you are young enough - I believe you could be a very dangerous person. The timing most be right though. In fact the moment would be critical. This could be you Chailife.
Don't forget to fill the offering basket as you leave ...

reply from: IYAOYAS

I obviously stated that all involved have ties to anti-abortion violence. You obviously are not denying that...You seem to be implying that they have all "seen the light" and changed their ways. Of course, most of these "changes of heart" closely followed criminal investigations and a general outcry of disapproval from mainstream prolifers, neither of which were likely to have been good for "business." Granted, the militant movement is now much more careful about what they say publicly, but I remain skeptical, and do not support either group.
All parties involved have "other agendas" just as I stated. They are anti-gay rights, and oppose other civil liberties based on their religious views. They seem to align with a general "dominionist" and/or Christian reconstructionist world view. This is certainly a threat to the freedom we enjoy as Americans, and regardless of who might deny it, such ideologies support a forced theocracy, or at the very least, align with the general principles.
These other "agendas" are reason enough for many fence sitters to oppose their efforts, and as such, are counterproductive to the prolife cause.
CP is in da house! How's things? Great - good to hear. I'm having a wonderful Saturday too.
Hey CP - just heard a really funny joke. It will brighten your day.
OK ... say "Knock-knock ..."

reply from: chailife

Similar allegations have been made against Troy, who obviously makes his living off the issue of abortion as well....
The only allegations of financial mismanagement on Newman's part that I am aware of have come form one of two sources - the Maggot Punks (who have a pretty clear agenda in that they throw a lot of dirt at anyone who opposes their view on "choice") and RT and Flip (whose motives for making such allegations could be brought into question).
The accusations against RT have come from many sources both within and outside the activist community. Patrick Poole, who, to the best of my knowledge has no ties to RT, Flip or Newman, spent over a year researching financial mismanagement allegations against RT. World Magazine also investigated the claims. In the book Wrath of Angels there are several passages that talk about RT's use and misuse of donated funds.
I have to consider not only the allegations but who is making them and why. Newman's accusers have agendas that may be motivating them to point the finger. RT's accusers are a mixed bunch. Undoubtedly some have agendas but other accusers appear to be more neutral. World Magazine reported favorably on OR in its heyday. RT and many of the people who worked closely with him in OR consented to be interviewed for the book Wrath of Angels. This book is one of several Terry holds out as evidence that he has the right to the OR name.

As for Flip, I don't know what he does with donated money. He may demonstrate financial integrity or he may not. I just don't know for certain so it would be unfair to say anything about this area of his ministry.
It's sad that you are so quick to condemn pro-lifers for 'making money off the issue of abortion' but refuse to condemn pro-aborts for making money off dead babies.

reply from: chailife

Are you saying then that each person in this dispute has present-day ties to anti-abortion violence?
I obviously stated that all involved have ties to anti-abortion violence.
Perhaps you can explain the connection each group has to violence:
Flip and OSA have been quite vocal in their opposition to anti-abortion violence. Some posters here have called him "Flip the switch" because of a statement he made in which he said he himself would gladly pull the switch to execute Paul Hill.
RT admits that he and Jim Kopp worked together in the past but he has since renounced any ties he had to Kopp on several occasions. When he was running OR, he made participants sign a pledge to remain non-violent in "thought, word and deed" and disassociated himself from those who would not sign or broke that pledge.
I have heard that one of the OR staff that works with Newman, Cheryl Sullinger, had a prior conviction on anti-abortion violence over a decade ago but she has not, to my knowledge, engaged in violent acts since. I don't know the circumstances behind her change of heart but it is not in my nature to be as cynical as you. I believe in the ability of people to repent and turn their lives around because I've seen it happen.
So, since you want nothing to do with the activist movement as represented by the three men listed above, maybe you can tell the rest of us what pro-life groups you consider acceptable. Who is working towards an end to abortion in a way that you can support?

reply from: IYAOYAS

I was gonna mention this about CP early on, but failed to.
I believe what you are going to run into with him is an ever changing definition of terms. "Anti-abortion violence" can range from blowing up an abortion mill - to standing out in front of an abortion mill and praying. It would all be the same to CP. The definitions keep changing with him, therefore having any kind of serious dialogue is pointless.
It would be like trying to pin down Bill Clinton on what the definition of "is" is, or what "sex" is. Therefore I give him all the seriousness he is due, by simply responding with "knock-knock" jokes.

reply from: chailife

Ties to anti-abortion violence do not simply disappear because they are publicly "renounced." Have you read any of Troy's books? He has openly defended anti-abortion violence, arguing that it is indeed "justifiable." You seem to be denying Benham supports anti-abortion violence directly, but I would point out the fact that I have simply stated the fact that all three have ties to anti-abortion violence, which certainly can not be denied.
I don't know if Ms. Sullinger has publicly "renounced" her ties to violence (however you define it). Not having ever met her, I can only judge by her actions or, in this case, her non-actions. As for Benham, I am only repeating what he himself has said on the issue both personally and speaking on behalf of OSA. I have not read any of Troy's books so I am in no position to comment on their content.
As for finances, I believe all should be held accountable, and I have found it best to err on the side of caution when deciding who can be trusted. The sources do not invalidate the allegations, as you seem to be suggesting. This seems to be the standard response in defense of Newman. I have yet to hear a solid rebuttal... You imply that Newman has been "cleared," but I assert that this would depend on what you consider "mismanagement of funds."
I have never implied or even outright stated that Troy has been "cleared" of the allegations against him. Since the only parties making the allegations have ulterior motives for seeing Troy fall, it is only right to question their validity. If you know of a neutral source that is accsuing Troy of financial mismanagement, pleas let the rest of us know since you seem to think the allegations have some validity.
You find it important to know what groups I endorse? While that does not seem relevant, I will humor you to some extent.
I think it's a legitimate question. You are so quick to condemn the work of some pro-lifers that it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from and what pro-life works you deem acceptable.
While I am not Catholic, and certainly do not agree with them on every point, I support Priests for life, and highly approve of the manner in which they attempt to educate the public. I find some matters of contention with every group, which is only natural, I suppose, since even among the groups themselves, there is certainly not complete agreement on every aspect of the issue. Personally, I believe National Right to Life takes the best approach to the fight, but I do not support them in any meaningful way.
I think your remarks about finding "some matters of contention with every group" are very telling. You seem to take the same approach to people.
As a pro-lifer and student of the Scriptures I believe the support of life, or chai in Hebrew, is an attitude of the heart. God, by creating life, endows it with value. There is nothing that God creates that He does not create to His good purpose even if we in our finite minds don't understand it. Is that which God creates corruptible? Yes, and we are all corrupted by sin. However, I believe God, in His mercy, created a way of escape from corruption in the form of the substitutionary atonement work done at the cross.
This said, when we do not value life, we believe that anything corrupted is beyond redemption and restoration. It is sad to go through life claiming to believe in God and yet denying the value of His creations and the power of His Son's rdemptive work. I still hold out hope for RT to repent and be restored. I also trust that God is working in the minds and hearts of Flip, Troy and anyone else who is committed to seeking and knowing Him - even you. And me.


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