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11 year old girl pregnant from uncle's rape gets abortion

Should 11 year old rape victims be forced to stay pregnant?

by: QueenJ

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7477448.stm
What are your thoughts on this?
Do you think she should be allowed to have the abortion?
If no, why and what kind of help/support would you offer her instead?
Text of article (in case you don't like links):
Romanian girl permitted abortion
An 11-year-old Romanian girl who is 21 weeks pregnant after being raped by an uncle will be able to have an abortion, even though it is forbidden by law.
A government committee said the procedure should go ahead due to the exceptional circumstances of her case.
Romania's abortion limit is 14 weeks. It had been suggested the girl might travel to the UK for the abortion.
Some 20 Christian Orthodox groups had threatened to press charges if the girl was allowed to abort the foetus.
In a letter to the government committee, the girl said she wanted to be able "to go to school and to play".
"If I can't do this my life will be a nightmare," she said, according to a text read out by government committee member Vlad Iliescu.
"The committee has decided that a voluntary termination of the pregnancy can be carried out," said Mr Iliescu.
He said the abortion could take place because the girl was a victim of sexual abuse and faced "major risks to her mental health" if the pregnancy continued.
Another committee member, Theodora Bertzi said the decision was made focusing on "the rights of this child who was subjected to rape and incest".
The committee said the case highlighted the need for "clarifications with regard to the exceptional circumstances" that would allow late-term abortions to go ahead.
'Family decision'
The girl was raped by a 19-year-old uncle who has since disappeared.
Her family only discovered she was pregnant when they took her to the doctor because she seemed sick.
While some pro-life Christian Orthodox groups had urged the family to keep the child, and offered to raise it in a church institution, the Romanian Orthodox Church said any decision on abortion should be left to the family.
The girl's parents had said they wanted to travel to a country where such a late-term abortion was legal.
In Romania abortion is only normally allowed beyond 14 weeks if the mother's life is deemed to be at risk. In Britain, they can be carried out up to 24 weeks in some circumstances.
A Romanian living in the UK had offered to cover the costs of a termination there.

reply from: faithman

Should the actions of a child rapist be covered up with the crime of abortion?

reply from: QueenJ

The rapist's actions aren't being covered up by the abortion. They know who this girl's rapist is.
And if necessary, they can get DNA from the fetus after the abortion to prove paternity.
Also, you didn't answer my second questions. How would you help/support this girl?

reply from: DanielCordell

This sadly reminds me of how some Muslim cultures would kill the 11 year old for being raped.
(see article)
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35663

Where does the evil end?

reply from: nancyu

Qreen J "Until every woman, everywhere is able to easily access safe, legal, private, affordable [murders] for whatever reason, at any time, on demand, without interference from outside parties and most importantly - without apology or shame."

reply from: galen

neither child should be subjected to the procedure... at 21 weeks you can have as many complications from the AB in an 11 yo girl as you would from a cesarean birth... let the pregnancy continue a few more weeks and deliver the child... try to save both. if the child lives and the 11 yo mother and her parents can not or will not support it... let it be adopted out.

reply from: galen

maybe here in the forum... but there the ones who are close to her are probably really there for her own good...
i remember the first post that the original galen put up here... she REALLY struggled with this issue due to a similar tragedy in her past ( a patient of her mom's was that age and pregnant)
Problem is medically it just does not make any more sense in this day and age to do it this way. Both can possibly be saved... and the child did not cause thier own conception the rapist did... we know who he is... hopefully he is locked up now.

reply from: faithman

The rapist's actions aren't being covered up by the abortion. They know who this girl's rapist is.
And if necessary, they can get DNA from the fetus after the abortion to prove paternity.
Also, you didn't answer my second questions. How would you help/support this girl?
Planned Parenthood has Consistanly covered the crimes of child rapists. Hard cases make bad law. Every effort should be made to save both. Simply because a born child has been victimized by a crime should we victimized the womb child by the crime of abortion.

reply from: RiverMoonLady

The only reason she had to wait so long for the abortion was because of the laws in her country.
I hope the uncle rots in jail and then in Hell.

reply from: ProInformed

Are they going to kill the rapist too? Or just the innocent baby?
And what do they plan to do to help the girl when she eventually learns the facts about how developed her baby was and exactly how they killed her baby?
Are YOU choicers going to be there for her when she finds out the truth and suffers depression and grief? Nope. If she ever expresses any regret or sorrow over her baby being killed you'll insult her and try to bully her into keeping quiet. So don't even pretend you care about her.
Pregnancy is temporary; it is entirely possible for the rape victim to once again return to playing/childhood without having to resort to an act of fatal violence against her own innocent baby. Why put this girl at risk of injury or death from an abortion? Why harm her future chances of having a healthy pregnancy? Will you choicers be there for her if the abortion leaves her physically or emotionally scarred? The safest solution (both physically and emotionally) for the pregnant rape victim, would be to give birth to her baby.
And although in this particular case the rapist got caught you'd have to be an idiot to not realize that many rapists count on abortion being legal in order to cover up their crime AND that many abortionists help them do so.
As to the girl herself choosing abortion, minus any pressure from others, I seriously doubt that since pro-abortion pressures (in ANY pregnancy), AND prejudice against babies concieved by rape, are not exactly a rarity! Again, you'd have to be pretty ignorant to not know that.
It sounds a lot like the way the pro-aborts used the woman in the Doe v Bolton case in order to get even third trimester abortions legalized... Of course they had no genuine concern for her - just saw her as somebody they could use to further their agenda.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

For a girl that young, it's much much safer to abort than to give birth. Do you realize how dangerous it is for an eleven-year-old to give birth? Margaret Beaufort was two years older than that and she was unable to have children for the rest of her life. And how do you know she'll have emotional scars or regret? Most women who have abortions don't, and I'm pretty sure the percentage is higher with girls that young who were raped. And how could a rapist force a woman to get an abortion at a legal clinic? He'd have to make an appointment for her without arousing suspicion, force her to accompany him to the clinic, somehow manage to keep her from talking while she's alone with the doctor and nurses, and get her to sign all the paperwork with her own hands. If she's that brainwashed, he could just as easily get her to have the baby and assert it's either not his or not the product of rape. Or he could just tell her to throw herself off a cliff. Besides, taking her to a clinic could actually provide proof for the woman if she ever tried to press charges against him. She could just go back to the clinic and ask for her records and prove that he took her there for an abortion.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I would say execute the uncle, not the baby. However, I believe the Supreme Court said you cannot execute child rapists. Besides, certain cultures and traditions such as Islam accept sexual intercourse at such a young age. The uncle should be required to bear full financial responsibility for the child. He can remain in prison until the baby turns 18 years of age, working during the day, going back to lockup at night. That seems to be a fair and equitable solution.

reply from: Banned Member

How about we allow the unborn child to live and be cared for, take care of the 11 year old by putting her in a safe home with caring parents who will provide her with the medical care she needs, and send the rapist to prison for the rest of his natural life? It works for me.

reply from: faithman

Prison sounds good. Life expectancy for these monsters isn't very long behind bars.

reply from: KaylieBee

In one black room. With no lights, and a little flap that a couple pieces of bread, some water and a bit of meat get pushed through every day.

reply from: Banned Member

Either way you don't have all those pesky appeals burdening the taxpayers and courts. Although these days I think anything is good that keeps the courts from legislating from the bench.

reply from: sander

It'll be just the baby that is killed, the rapist will live.
The SCOTUS just pronounced for this country that child rapists should not and will not face the death penalty, These same evil morons (the liberal 5) give the death penalty to children in the womb, though.
They've got everything so screwed up and backwards, it's mind boggling that they know how to dress themselves.

reply from: nancyu

It'll be just the baby that is killed, the rapist will live.
The SCOTUS just pronounced for this country that child rapists should not and will not face the death penalty, These same evil morons (the liberal 5) give the death penalty to children in the womb, though.
They've got everything so screwed up and backwards, it's mind boggling that they know how to dress themselves.
I think those robes must go on pretty easily, and fit the same either way they are put on. At least the people in wardrobe had some foresight.

reply from: sander

In one black room. With no lights, and a little flap that a couple pieces of bread, some water and a bit of meat get pushed through every day.
Then after a bit, sew up the flap.

reply from: sander

That begs the question, what ever could be under the robes of the mornonic five?

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is a serious decision, it is a lifetime decision as well. Studies show that the younger the child the more trouble they have coping with the abortion. Also the farther along in the pregnancy the harder it is to cope with what abortion is. She is only 11. She has no idea how much this will hurt her, she is just a baby herself. What was done to her was terrible, but that doesn't mean killng the baby will help her, it will just make it easier on everyone else to cope. Teenagers often think of abortion as being made unpregnant, but it isn't being made unpregnant, it is killing the baby to make you unpregnant.
Abortion will make this little girl a victim twice....
She needs love and support and help walking through all of this. That baby can be adopted out, the girl can have help and counseling and the uncle should be locked up for the rest of his life.......and at least she will know she did the right thing in horrible circumstances. I feel terrible for her, this was a dreadful act of violence unon her.

reply from: carolemarie

Abortion is a serious decision, it is a lifetime decision as well. Studies show that the younger the child the more trouble they have coping with the abortion. Also the farther along in the pregnancy the harder it is to cope with what abortion is. She is only 11. She has no idea how much this will hurt her, she is just a baby herself. What was done to her was terrible, but that doesn't mean killng the baby will help her, it will just make it easier on everyone else to cope. Teenagers often think of abortion as being made unpregnant, but it isn't being made unpregnant, it is killing the baby to make you unpregnant.
Abortion will make this little girl a victim twice....
She needs love and support and help walking through all of this. That baby can be adopted out, the girl can have help and counseling and the uncle should be locked up for the rest of his life.......and at least she will know she did the right thing in horrible circumstances. I feel terrible for her, this was a dreadful act of violence unon her.
Unfortunately there are very few studies on how a woman feels after keeping the child.
I'm sure there are people who are satisfied or regretful of their decisions at both ends.
I am sure that there are.
But in the case of a young girl, in this case a preteen, she can't make an informed choice. She is too young to fully understand the ramifications of her choice. And nobody else has the right to make that choice for her. But she is pregnant, 4 months and this whole nightmare will be over in 5 months. Going through the pregnancy with support and counseling will help her heal. But having her do something equally cruel to someone smaller, weaker who can't fight back is exactly what that beast of an uncle did to her. Sooner or later she will come to that realization.
Another point is that if she gets the abortion, everyone else can pretend everything is okay, since there is not a visable reminder of what was done to her. It is easier for everyone else to "get past this" but that isn't fair to her.
She is the one who will remember and have to deal with it alone. There is a tendency to push rape victims to cover it up and "get past this ordeal", because it makes it hard on the family and friends to deal with her pain. Abortion makes it all okay now. But having to look at your pregnant 11 year old makes you walk this journey with her....
Even in Romainia abortion is a topic and she will hear it called murder and have to wonder....

reply from: galen

an 11 year old girl with a 20-21 week pregnancy would be safer undergoing a planned cesarean to remove the child once it is tthe range of viability, than it would be to give her an abortion, or allow a natural birth.
Medically speaking she would endure the same amount of trauma to her physiology, should she have an abortion, as she would with a natural birth. the problem being that the abortion is more likely to scarr her uterus at this age whereas a surgical birth will remove the placenta with no scarring and allow her to have norml pelvic function without the normal spread that occurs during birth. Unless she is a large 11 yo it will be unbearably hard for her to push a baby through an undeveloped pelvis.
Why not wait a few weeks and give the child a shot at life too? the girl never needs to see the child.. she can be put to sleep for the c-section, the child lives, and the mom can physiologically finish growing up. She no matter what will need counseling... so why kill the child? It won't change or make her situation better.
Killing this baby is like turning to your neighbor and saying you want to shoot him because someone else raped you. The child is innocent.. and already alive... so what is the point?
medicine today is much better able to handle this girl physiologicaly if she has the baby in a few weeks than if she has an abortion... which at this age may very well leave her sterile.Not to mention the psychological impact this procedure will have... In romania she will basically have a forced labour and forced birth. Her labour course will rip the child up inside her...what purpose does delivering this stillborn do for her... she still will go through labour and delivery as if she were a regular mom.. the procedure will not be a 'clean' suction or D&C.

reply from: galen

here is a link in case anyone is unclear about what this girl will go through....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCVVXbAOSko

reply from: sheri

"killing the child of a rapist is like wanting to kill your neighbor because you were raped". That is a very interesting statement, i never thought of it that way. Thanks Galen.
Also, kill the rapest, not the child.

reply from: Faramir

I disagree. Your neighbor is not inside you.
It's a cliche, but it's true--the child should not receive a death sentence because of the crime of his father.
And the 11 year old should not be raped twice. The abortion would be a very violating experience for her.

reply from: galen

i second this. the point was not where the child is but that they ARE.

reply from: meaculpa

Abortion is a serious decision, it is a lifetime decision as well. Studies show that the younger the child the more trouble they have coping with the abortion. Also the farther along in the pregnancy the harder it is to cope with what abortion is. She is only 11. She has no idea how much this will hurt her, she is just a baby herself. What was done to her was terrible, but that doesn't mean killng the baby will help her, it will just make it easier on everyone else to cope. Teenagers often think of abortion as being made unpregnant, but it isn't being made unpregnant, it is killing the baby to make you unpregnant.
Abortion will make this little girl a victim twice....
She needs love and support and help walking through all of this. That baby can be adopted out, the girl can have help and counseling and the uncle should be locked up for the rest of his life.......and at least she will know she did the right thing in horrible circumstances. I feel terrible for her, this was a dreadful act of violence unon her.
Unfortunately there are very few studies on how a woman feels after keeping the child.
I'm sure there are people who are satisfied or regretful of their decisions at both ends.
Oh yeah xenatiger, I'm sure there are plenty of mom's sitting back holding therir little "choices" saying "how I wished I'd had you sucked into a sink!"
(Not so much, I'm thinking.)

reply from: Teresa18

This is a hard case, but I still would not support an abortion. We must uphold the dignity of human life. It's not the child's fault he/she was concieved. He/she should not have to be killed for the crime of his/her father. The young girl needs help through this pregnancy and after she gives birth, but the answer isn't to take to kill her child. They are both innocent victims.

reply from: sander

To the proabort it doesn't matter, the baby is made to pay the ultimate price.

reply from: yoda

Lol. You'd be surprised..
Really? You know lots of women who look at their kids and wish they'd had them sucked down a sink?
Why am I not surprised?

reply from: sander

Lol. You'd be surprised..
Really? You know lots of women who look at their kids and wish they'd had them sucked down a sink?
Why am I not surprised?
Isn't that something and why does it never cease to amaze me how callous these proaborts are?
You'd think I'd get use to hearing this mindless claptrap.

reply from: sk1bianca

ok...
here's how it was.
the little girl got raped by her uncle and he threatened her not to tell anyone or else he would kill her. that's why nobody knew. they only found out when they took her to see a doctor because she wasn't feeling well.
florina (that's her name) comes from a poor uneducated family and her parents didn't really give a*****about her. her mom said she feels sorry for her but she wouldn't want her brother, the rapist, to be sentenced to jail... incredible, isn't it? she also pressured her daughter into "choosing" abortion and she also pressured the medical commission. at first, romanian doctors refused to allow the abortion, because in Romania the limit is 14 weeks and such an exception might cause the laws to change. but the girl's mother threatened to take her to UK and have the baby aborted there (which is what they will do next week as far as i've heard). the romanian commission allowed the abortion, eventually.
it's obvious her so-called mother cares more about what people will say about her and her family than about her daughter's health and that unborn child (funny since she got pregnant at 14 at gave birth to florina when she was 15!!!!). so many people offered help, they said they would care for the baby and his mother, offered counseling and financial support, many people said they wanted to adopt tha baby. florina's family doesn't want to hear anything about help. they would rather pay 1700 punds to have the baby killed. her father said that if the child is born he would kill both the rapist AND THE BABY himself!
i wonder if the child protection services will take florina and put her in a normal family.
some people say that even in UK the doctors are reluctant to perform the abortion since the pregnancy is 20 weeks. the doctors said that after the baby is removed it has 1% chances of survival. mabye a miracle will happen.
such cases are not rare in romania. every year, many girls younger than 15 (usualy gipsies, they have a tradition to marry very young), give birth to healthy babies. those who go to school continue to do so and take care of babies in the same time, they get help from the church and from their families.
abortion was legalized in 1989. in the first year, almost 1.000.000 babies were killed. another 500.000 are had been butchered every year since then. even if any pharmacy sells condoms and other BC, even if they are FREE for high school and college students! kids keep getting pregnant despite sex ed and free BC.
since 1989, population has dropped dramatically, birth rate is very low. 75% of the young people don't want to have any children. my country is dieing.

reply from: faithman

So is Russia, Italy, Spain, Austria....

reply from: yoda

Frankly, I DO see what's wrong with you pretending not to know what we're talking about.......
We're NOT talking about people "not wanting children", we're talking about people KILLING the children they ALREADY have!
Now, go ahead and pretend some more, and use some more euphemisms to make the slaughter of unborn babies seem....... "innocuous".... k?

reply from: yoda

This board is about abortion, and abortion is the major way that many parents get rid of their children. You are a proabort. Therefore anytime you mention people not wanting kids....... well, just connect the dots......

reply from: meaculpa

Frankly, I DO see what's wrong with you pretending not to know what we're talking about.......
We're NOT talking about people "not wanting children", we're talking about people KILLING the children they ALREADY have!
Now, go ahead and pretend some more, and use some more euphemisms to make the slaughter of unborn babies seem....... "innocuous".... k?
I guess you are having trouble reading today.
I am replying to meaculpa's statement:
which has nothing to do with abortion
Yes you are having trouble reading today.
I never said that. Perhaps it was someone else?

reply from: sk1bianca

scary statistics:
Population Services International:
- in Romania, between 1989 and 2000 - 11.000.000 recorded abortions. (most of them in state clinics, private ones often don't report them)
- 97% of romanians have heard of at least 1 form of BC. despite that, in 2005 there were 1.200 abortions for every 1.000 live births (state clinics). now there are aproximately 250.000 abortion/year, so the number dropped a bit...
Metro Media Transilvania (survey company):
- 75% of young people don't want children.

reply from: churchmouse

If she is 21 weeks, the baby can be viable. That means she has gone through over half the pregnancy. Giving birth can't be worse than the rape itself.
Lolita who is it safer for? Is it safer for the baby? The baby that has been growing for 21 weeks and NOW they want to kill it? Please.
My neice was born at around 22 weeks. She is now 16 years old and in the Honor Society of her High School with a class ranking of 15 out of 1200 kids. She is happy and healthy. Sure when she was born it was an uphill battle. She stayed in the hospital for over 5 months. But they saved her.
They could take the baby by cesarean section and she never would have to feel anything or go through the birth.
This makes me sick that people would condone the absoltue cold blooded killing of an innocent child, when BOTH COULD BE SAVED.
She will have scars emotionally anyway. So lets just add killing to the violent act of rape she will have to live with the rest of her life. That makes sense?
And how the heck would you know? Have you ever had an abortion? You people that think abortion is nothing more than getting teeth cleaned make me sick.
You have no idea how many woman suffer from past abortions. I did. How many women will even admit they have had one? Women all over the world suffer in silence over abortions. To say what you did is ridiculous.
Yes kaylie.......lets send him to a Ritz Carleton and give him room service brought up daily on a sterling silver platter. He can have access to the workout and spa facilities, free cable ta boot.
Would that be better for a CHILD RAPIST?
So true. A woman never forgets. The sins of the youth have a funny way of appearing later on in life. People think abortion is the quickest and neatest way of solving a problem. What they do not realize is that, killing never solves the problem. In a womans mind, its always there. This is one decision that you can never take back? Other people will go on and forget......not so easy for the woman that did the actual killing.
I agree with galen[/B

reply from: galen

datorita bianca for a more first hand account of the story... i do pray for this poor girl.

reply from: sk1bianca

if you kill children because you don't want them that's wrong.
cu placere galen, multumim pentru rugaciuni.

reply from: sk1bianca

ok. let me make this really slow...
1. people don't want children.
2. if children are "accidentaly" conceived this fact is considered a tragedy, a very unconfortable, embarasing situation.
3. they will try to get rid of the "problem"
4. abortion.

reply from: yoda

Exactly. Sometimes, you just have to connect the dots for some readers.

reply from: galen

bianca, did they have any more news on this from over the weekend?

reply from: sk1bianca

as far as i've heard, she's supposed to be taken to UK today for the abortion. (they already left, just read it in a paper). there's someone in UK who is helping them with the money, paying for the procedure and so on.
the police are still searching for the rapist. he's nowhere to be found.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

It seems you are reporting on the commission of a murder. The poor little boy or girl that will be killed.

reply from: sk1bianca

nobody ever talks about a boy or a girl. as if he/she doesn't exist. as if it's a disease or some "problem" they want to get rid of and then pretend nothing ever happened.

reply from: galen

i will pray in mass for her today...

reply from: rooforlife

For several years, Robert A. Estrada, Sr. sexually molested his two little stepdaughters, who were only eleven and fourteen years old. When the eleven-year-old girl became pregnant, Estrada took her to abortionist Sherman Zaremski at the Central Women's Services abortion mill, and he aborted her and returned her to Estrada's abuse without question. Estrada impregnated her again, and she gave birth to twins on her 12th birthday. Estrada also impregnated the other girl and took her for an abortion, and once again the abortion mill personnel asked no questions.
Former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline subpoenaed the records of the Central Women's Services abortion mill in October 2005, and Estrada was arrested the following month. He was charged with five counts of first-degree rape, four counts of felony aggravated indecent liberties, and two counts of aggravated child endangerment.
Zaremski was the plaintiff in the notorious Aid for Women v. Foulston Federal court case, in which he argued that abortion mill personnel should not have to report suspected child sexual molestation. He still works as an abortionist in Kansas City.
In July 2006, Estrada pleaded no contest to the charges and, on October 4, 2006, he was sentenced to ninety years in prison.
References: Testimony in court documents pertaining to The State of Kansas v. Robert A. Estrada, Sr.; "Kline had Nothing to Do With Sex Case." The Kansan, October 3, 2006.
It happens more than you think and until you live through that, you wouldnt understand the fear you live with. DO you know what this man or any other rapists threatens these girls with? What if they were threatened that their mother would be killed if they said anything, do you think they would have said anything?
Heres some links about abortion and rape:
Accomplices in Incest
Case Study: "Doris Kalasky"
http://www.afterabortion.info/PAR/V2/n1/TESTMONY.htm

Rape, Incest and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths
http://www.afterabortion.info/PAR/V2/n1/RAPESUM.htm

Victims and Victors Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault
http://www.afterabortion.info/Victims/

SPEAKER ADVOCATES FOR RIGHT TO LIFE AS ONE 'CONCEIVED THROUGH RAPE'
http://www.womeninfluencingthenation.com/article.php?id=216

Faces of Abortion is the first weekly television show in America dedicated to telling the stories of women who have had an abortion and who are also committed to overturning the two 1973 Supreme Court cases that brought legal abortion-on-demand to America.
Rape and incest survivor talks about her abortion, click on TV show 2:
http://www.operationoutcry.org/pages.asp?pageid=27773

reply from: sk1bianca

although doctors at marie stopes first refused to perform the abortion, saying they are not authorized to operate girls younger than 12, a special approval has been given for this case.
the abortion procedure began yesterday and will take three days to complete. the girl was given a pill to dilate her cervix and then they will extract the baby (no C section? "safer" than giving birth?).
doctors say the baby may survive for several hours.
makes me wonder why didn't they just wait another 2 months so the baby can survive. this is not done "for the girl" or "in her best interest", this is simply about killing that child at any costs.
rapist still not found. police suspect he left the country.

reply from: yoda

And the abortionist will probably "accidentally lose" the remains of the baby, to prevent a DNA match.....

reply from: galen

_____________________________________________
lord may this be the youngest preemie to survive.. i wonder if cracrat is following this one in refrence to the baby's born alive in GB...

reply from: cracrat

_____________________________________________
lord may this be the youngest preemie to survive.. i wonder if cracrat is following this one in refrence to the baby's born alive in GB...
I am in that I'd rather it not happen and am saddened it's happening here, but don't know of the right news outlet to follow the story. I saw the article in the paper a few days ago about the girl getting permission but have seen nothing since in the Independent or on the BBC news site. If someone would care to point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.

reply from: rooforlife

Great links, thanks!
Your welcome!

reply from: galen

_____________________________________________
lord may this be the youngest preemie to survive.. i wonder if cracrat is following this one in refrence to the baby's born alive in GB...
I am in that I'd rather it not happen and am saddened it's happening here, but don't know of the right news outlet to follow the story. I saw the article in the paper a few days ago about the girl getting permission but have seen nothing since in the Independent or on the BBC news site. If someone would care to point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it.
______________________________
i wish i knew...the independant probably is the place to start...also why not start a picket to adopt the premie at that particular clinic.. should he/she be alive they can transfer it to a NICU and give the poor wee thing a shot.
god this makes me cry.

reply from: sander

I know what you mean, Mary. It's so tragic. My heart aches for the poor girl being forced to go thru this abortion to deliver a dieing baby. And my heart is torn to shreds for that poor little baby that will/is suffering a gruesome death and paying the ultimate price with all concerned.
Where has mercy gone?

reply from: galen

leave it to the ABritish abortion providers to show the world how progressive they are... i hope they have nightmares.
what is being done seems to be a prostoglandin abortion... god help the child.
this is just like watching an execution for adulty in the middle east... but in the middle east they let the child live and kill the mother.

reply from: galen

rape would not be her own actions.

reply from: galen

i never knew anaolgies had to be exact....

reply from: sander

Hey, little miss, I thought I told you that you were suppose to be prolife by now.
That particular "third party" that is inside the body was handed a gold engraved INVITATION!
It's not fair sport to recend the invite just because the baby showed up!

reply from: sander

Well, not in the case of rape.
The person 'hosting' didn't hand out any invitations.
Is that suppose to come as a newflash?

reply from: sk1bianca

ok...
romanian newspapers say that the doctors at marie stopes clinic wont' do the abortion. they asked for all the medical examinations to be translated in english and it looks like they will sent the girl to another clinic. they didn't say where or why (rumors say they just want to be sure it's legal).
the police and social services also asked to see the files because, normally, the clinic is not authorized to do abortion on girls younger than 12.
the person who was helping florina's family with money only payed for the trip and the hotel. marie stopes international will pay for the abortion.

reply from: yoda

According to proabort theology, all analogies that tend to show abortion in a bad light must be physically identical down to the last molecule, but those that cast a favorable light on abortion need not even be similar.......

reply from: sander

According to proabort theology, all analogies that tend to show abortion in a bad light must be physically identical down to the last molecule, but those that cast a favorable light on abortion need not even be similar.......
Now, "ain't" that just the truth!

reply from: rooforlife

For several years, Robert A. Estrada, Sr. sexually molested his two little stepdaughters, who were only eleven and fourteen years old. When the eleven-year-old girl became pregnant, Estrada took her to abortionist Sherman Zaremski at the Central Women's Services abortion mill, and he aborted her and returned her to Estrada's abuse without question. Estrada impregnated her again, and she gave birth to twins on her 12th birthday. Estrada also impregnated the other girl and took her for an abortion, and once again the abortion mill personnel asked no questions.
Former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline subpoenaed the records of the Central Women's Services abortion mill in October 2005, and Estrada was arrested the following month. He was charged with five counts of first-degree rape, four counts of felony aggravated indecent liberties, and two counts of aggravated child endangerment.
Zaremski was the plaintiff in the notorious Aid for Women v. Foulston Federal court case, in which he argued that abortion mill personnel should not have to report suspected child sexual molestation. He still works as an abortionist in Kansas City.
In July 2006, Estrada pleaded no contest to the charges and, on October 4, 2006, he was sentenced to ninety years in prison.
References: Testimony in court documents pertaining to The State of Kansas v. Robert A. Estrada, Sr.; "Kline had Nothing to Do With Sex Case." The Kansan, October 3, 2006.
It happens more than you think and until you live through that, you wouldnt understand the fear you live with. DO you know what this man or any other rapists threatens these girls with? What if they were threatened that their mother would be killed if they said anything, do you think they would have said anything?
Heres some links about abortion and rape:
Accomplices in Incest
Case Study: "Doris Kalasky"
http://www.afterabortion.info/PAR/V2/n1/TESTMONY.htm
">http://www.afterabortion.info/...n1/TESTMONY.htm
Rape, Incest and Abortion: Searching Beyond the Myths
http://www.afterabortion.info/PAR/V2/n1/RAPESUM.htm
">http://www.afterabortion.info/.../n1/RAPESUM.htm
Victims and Victors Speaking Out About Their Pregnancies, Abortions, and Children Resulting from Sexual Assault
http://www.afterabortion.info/Victims/
">http://www.afterabortion.info/Victims/
SPEAKER ADVOCATES FOR RIGHT TO LIFE AS ONE 'CONCEIVED THROUGH RAPE'
http://www.womeninfluencingthenation.com/article.php?id=216
">http://www.womeninfluencingthe...icle.php?id=216
Faces of Abortion is the first weekly television show in America dedicated to telling the stories of women who have had an abortion and who are also committed to overturning the two 1973 Supreme Court cases that brought legal abortion-on-demand to America.
Rape and incest survivor talks about her abortion, click on TV show 2:
http://www.operationoutcry.org/pages.asp?pageid=27773
Heres another link to Forced Abortion in the America:
http://www.unfairchoice.info/pdf/ForcedAbortions.pdf

reply from: galen

__________________________________________________________-
thanks for the update.. i added this girl and her baby to the intentions in mass.

reply from: galen

Bucara -te Marie
cea plina de har
Domule este cu tine
binecuvantat este rodul
trupului tau, Isus.
Sfanta Marie, maica lui Dumnezcue
roaga-te pentru noi pacalosii
acum si in ora mortii noastre
Amin

reply from: 4given

Amen. I have been fasting and praying for 3 days. I broke my fast tonight. (the forum was part of the fast) May Jahovah intervene in her lives and the lives of those that surround her. May His presence be made known. May her heart and mind be free of anxiety and may hope and clarity enter in. We need a miracle! She needs a miracle! Protect this child Lord. Protect this innocent baby in her womb. Bless its life Lord. Spare it from the intense pain and suffering that You feel Lord. In Jesus Name...Selah . Amen.
I read about and saw a video clip on prostaglandin abortion..Priests For Life has one. (as you Mary, stated she likely will receive) It is heart breaking!
In this method, the mother is given a type of drug called "prostaglandins". These may be injected into the womb, or given as a pill. In either case, the drugs cause her to go into premature labor, with much stronger contractions than in normal labor. The fetus is normally crushed to death by the violent labor, but if not, and it is delivered alive, it will usually die within a few hours from exposure.
http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/prost.htm

reply from: carolemarie

Bothing about this will be pleasant, not for the child or the baby she is carrying. It is a terrible situtation.

reply from: 4given

I agree and she was so heavy on my heart. I can only imagine how God feels. The mother and baby need prayers. How deeply God must hurt at the life of just one of His own.. Please pray for them both Carole. Join me in prayer and agree in Jesus Name for a helmet of protection to surround them. For peace and healing. For a miracle in their lives.. In Jesus Name!

reply from: sander

Someone please explain why this is "better" for the young girl in question then having a cesearn or even natural birth? Why is the abortion deemed the "best"?
How is this suppose to ease this young girl's suffering? How?

reply from: galen

its not better which is why i believe that the docs in England are feeling misled.. possibly there is hope.
anyway a week or so more and that child will have a true chance for life.. maybe someone could spirit it away? if they do a hysterotomy they could deliver the child and no one would be wiser... and just adopt it out...
physiologicaly better for this poor child. parents none the wiser..put the uterus back and no true hysterectomy...everyone wins.
possibly a doc can delay long enough to keep this from happening.

reply from: sander

I hope and pray your scenario comes to pass, Mary.
It's just mind boggling they are trying to do this to the little girl. It's almost like it's on purpose, to prove a point that abortion is the best, even when it's obviously not. How sad and tragic.

reply from: galen

has anyone heard anything else about this?

reply from: english

This is a seriously exceptional case - the child is inbred, a product of rape and it's mother's 11 - but it still doesn't deserve to be punished with its life. Obviously it's not the girl's fault but it won't kill her like slughtering the unborn will. Either way the girl is likely to suffer emotional damage.
the unborn baby should not be punished. Abortions at this stage of pregnancy are seriously violent.
I wonder why the girl didn't realize she was pregnant sooner?

reply from: LolitaOlivia

She's eleven. She probably didn't know what signs to look for.

reply from: faithman

If the child is viable, then a c section is safer than abortion for mom, and most assuredly for the womb child. Why can't they save both? why add the death of a child to the poor girls misery? klling the child on purpose can never be taken back.

reply from: galen

just remember that for every rape baby that is aborted you loose out on a wonderful person who did nothing to deserve execution...for example my son.

reply from: galen

what about the rape child's choice... they should have one too.

reply from: galen

maybe he wanted that child for something... people also murder other people and i do not think God wants that either... there is a little thing called free will.

reply from: galen

so why did i concieve?

reply from: galen

But that is the point.. in christianity God gives us a choice and wants us to choose correctly...
God also tells us not to kill.
so if you choose to shoot you neighbor or kill your child you have chosen wrongly.

reply from: sander

True (re free will) but I don't believe god would waste time impregenating a person who he knew would get an abortion. Especially if it was from rape.
Here's a news flash, God does not impregnate people. They do that all by themselves.
And in the case of this little girl, it would be safer to let her go a little longer with her pregnancy, take the baby by c-section, so she's spared a grueling labor that will produce a dead baby.
And THAT'S why there will always be people who are against abortion. Not everyone is so blinded to the truth, thankfully.

reply from: 4given

Really? When? I personally believe it, but when and where have you seen someone- or "all the religious ppl" say that?
I know you were responding to Sander, but I have experience, as I know a few woman that kept their children conceived this way. God has a perfect will, but also a permissive will. He allows us to choose and that also includes those that perpetrate violence. They will face the consequences of that choice. I believe that though we are judged as individuals before God, a woman that kills her baby because of rape will be judged, but the man that rapes her will be judged for the abortion as well. The women I know that kept delivered their babies- One kept hers. The 2nd gave hers up to a relative to rear. The third woman, conceived in rape is a strong voice and leader in the pro-life movement. These women and their children, have made a difference in this world. Good, bad, indifferent- When bad things happen, we are all faced with a choice- To harbor resentment and anger, or to try to take from those experiences and grow. My experiences with people that have been through trials, is that they are an encouragement to others.. Experience will teach you sense type of thing. Not everyone has sufficient support, but to those I know that have experienced life's challenges- they are mostly compassionate, kind and true.

reply from: 4given

Really? When? I personally believe it, but when and where have you seen someone- or "all the religious ppl" say that?
What do you want me to do? Find some quotes? Its like saying you want
me to prove that there are people against abortion. Um, its what we're debating about. Its an obsolete comment. You just said you believe it anyway.
I just want you to be cautious about what you say. You already said you were voting for Obama- even though that was not truthful, as you can not vote here. If you aren't prepared for what may happen to your credibility, don't make statements that you can't back. A bit of advice is all.

reply from: yoda

Yes, but why make it even worse?

reply from: english

LolitaOlivia - I think even though she's eleven she probably would know what to look for. Also she's clearly physically a woman or almost there, so maybe she would have had an inkling because of the hormones. I expect now that she blocked it all out, and was "embarrassed" (don't know the right word) to tell her parents or doctor how she got pregnant. Although rape isn't the victims fault it can still make them feel "ashamed" sort of.

reply from: english

If the child is viable, then a c section is safer than abortion for mom, and most assuredly for the womb child. Why can't they save both? why add the death of a child to the poor girls misery? klling the child on purpose can never be taken back.
That's what I think. If the girl could just hold on another 2 or 3 weeks, it won't make anything worse for her, she won't have to deal with the guilt of her child's death when she finds out the procedure, and both children could be saved. They could take the baby out and she would never see it again and it wouldn't have suffer the death penalty for its father's crime.

reply from: yoda

That brings up another issue...... the real motivation for having an abortion. In many cases, abortions have gone wrong and the baby has been born alive, only to be quickly killed by the hands of the abortionist. Thus, we see that in many cases, the real motivation for an abortion is to kill the baby, not to simply end the pregnancy.

reply from: sk1bianca

looks like the abortion was a "success"... the girl will be given "counseling", probably to prevent her from feeling guilty about it... i wonder how "succesful" that will be considering the whole future, not just the first weeks after the "procedure"...

reply from: sander

How horrible that "success" is defined by a dead baby.
It will take a lifetime of counseling for this girl to recover, not only from the hands of her attacker, but from the hands of the butchers that put her thru the ordeal of killing the baby.
There was a better way.

reply from: sk1bianca

looks like they caught the rapist. he was hiding in a remote village in the northen part of the county. scotland yard will help with DNA evidence to prove he is the father of the butchered baby.

reply from: galen

___________________________________________________--
what did they do with the baby... does it at least get a funeral mass?

reply from: galen

________________________________________________________
i threw up after reading this...

reply from: sk1bianca

sorry for making you throw up. it looks like the girl and her mother will be getting back to Romania this weekend.
i couldn't believe what they said in the newspapers...
after having her child "successfuly" butchered, and after she had "successfuly" and "spectacular" recovery (she got out of the hospital a few hours after the abortion), they took her shopping! the woman who helped with the abortion gave her a mini-vacation. after all, london is fun! who gives a s*** they just killed an innocent baby! I mean, they didn't even have to pay for it, right?
the mother of the dead baby is "happy" and "can go on with her life" (as if nothing ever happened). "she is a child again" and her sad, "touching" story is over. she got rid of the "problem", the "pregnancy", the "burden" (big title!), all this being presented as "good news".
nothing was ever mentioned about the baby. we don't even know if it was a boy or a girl. anything to dehumanize the unborn...
apparently he/she could have survived with the help of advanced medical technology available in UK.

reply from: yoda

Why don't you know? The baby doesn't matter.... or at least that's what we're told over and over right here on this forum.......

reply from: galen

______________________________________________
shopping....what they WANT her to get infected?

reply from: 4given

God have mercy! Quite the procedure too at this stage. My prayer is that the slaughtered child will be given a proper burial and a name. How sad. I wonder if her mother and the others involved will join her for that "counseling" over guilt?! Pity on them. I ache for her and I mourn for the violent end of her child's life.. Appreciate the update though..

reply from: sk1bianca

and just to see how much people care about punishing the rapist...
after they arrested him, they decided there's no need to lock him up and that he will be investigated while he is free.
guess what... he's gone again!

reply from: sk1bianca

well, there's a law here that says if the police is investigating someone, and that someone is not considered dangerous, he can remain "un-arrested", until evidence against him is found.
obvoiusly, a pedophile and a rapist isn't very dangerous...
however, this is not the first time this happens. many criminals, (high class) thiefs, corrupted personalities have escaped this way. either they are not arrested (too rich and/or too important to stay in jail until the trial), either they become "too sick to stay in jail" and then they magically dissapear.

reply from: sander

And after they catch him again, they should put the same people in the same cell for the same length of time, that let him go in the first place.
Did it ever occur to those idiots that risking this would further traumatize the girl he raped? Of course not.

reply from: sander

Better yet...they have those idiots right now...throw them in them slammer now. There must be laws against utter stupidity.

reply from: sk1bianca

ok... i know this topic got really old... sorry if nobody's interested anymore...
florina and her mother got back to Romania this weekend. after all the "success" and the "support" and the "counseling", the girl refuses to get out of the house. she reads books and watches TV all day.
the other children in the village say they are waiting for her to come out and play. they believe she was "sick" and had to be "treated" because some boy in the village beated her.
in her village, everyone knows her story. they say she was given way too much attention by the media and by everyone else. after all, there are so many poor girls in her situation. people are jealous that she and her mother managed to leave the country, a thing that seems like a dream to most of them, because of poverty.
florina's family is thinking about moving to another place.
they arrested the rapist again. he says he's innocent. he faces up to 20 years in prison.

reply from: cracrat

I wouldn't recommend locking up the intellectually bereft, the world would become an awfully lonely place for the few of us left roaming free.

reply from: sk1bianca

and you'll never guess how they eventually did the abortion. the baby was chopped into pieces and taken out bit by bit. no normal doctor could take a live fetus out of his mother and then kill it. they wanted to make sure it wouldn't survive.
the girls parents acted with unbelievable irresponsability. they say they didn't realise she was pregnant, which is a lie (unless they're blind or something...). they didn't report the rapist to the police because he was the girl's uncle. they chose abortion when the doctors recommended that the pregnancy should continue. they preffered to have that child killed although so many people, doctors, NGOs, ordinary citizens, offered to help. they tried to cover a rape with a murder.

reply from: galen

thanks for the update bianca...


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