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"My father got old so we had him put down."

On Forced Euthanasia

by: JesusLovesYou

i thought you might find this interesting it's about how King George V was murdered by his family and doctors who justified it as euthanasia. Next to abortion, forced euthanasia is the greatest threat to life, and, though illegal, is practiced all over the world by doctors without consulting the patient in question. in countries where assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia is legal, patients may still be coerced or tricked into signing away their lives. what happened to King George especially bothers me because this was a man who's life was greatly valued and who almost certainly wanted to live, but his life was taken out of his hands for the most petty and disgusting reasons. My pastor did a pamphlet on euthanasia and this is from the research he did.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

George V was an *****. He abused his kids and didn't consider having sex with prostitutes cheating on his wife. He's lucky he didn't end up like Edward II with a pike up his ass.

reply from: cracrat

I believe it was a red hot poker, but the sentiment was the same

reply from: JesusLovesYou

The issue isn't just that he could've lived, it's that he wasn't the one who made the decision. I'm a little more gray when it comes to something completely consensual, but what concerns me is that if euthanasia is legalized the people being killed won't be the ones to decide their fate.

reply from: JesusLovesYou

^ it wasn't that long ago John McCain was born that year IIRC.

reply from: churchmouse

This like abortion will get out of control. If you look at Oregon where it is legal, it is a mess. Abortion was legalized ONLY for the hard cases, rape, incest, health of the mother. Euthanasia will only be for the terminally ill.......then the law will change and include all adults that want to die, for any reason. The Netherlands is another place where it is legal.
It will be impossible to stop once it is legalized. At risk will be the retarded, the handicapped, the mentally ill.......abortion on demand, euthanasia on demand.
In 1997 in the Supreme Court in the case, Washington v Glucksberg... physician-assisted suicide was rejected as a constitutional right because "the right to autonomy clashes with the right to life in our constitutional system...Death is the extinguishment of rights, not the triumph of one right over another."
The U.S. Supreme Court upheld both the New York and Washington statues prohibiting assisted suicide in all cases by a 9-0 vote. Physician-assisted suicide is NOT a right protected by our Constitution.
So how can it be legal in Oregon? I live in Arizona......we are close to voting on it here.
Can you imagine the pressure families could put on the elderly, to die? And the elderly would want to die to save their families money.
National studies show that among patients requesting assisted suicides, DEPRESSION is the only factor that significantly predicts the request for death.
(Fifth Annual Report on Oregon's Death with Dignity Act, Oregon Department of Human Services; Office of Disease Prevention and Epidemiology, March 6, 1003)
Not a terminal illness......simply depression.
Sixty-seven percent of suicides are because of psychiatric depression. By Oregon's fifth year only 13% of suicide victims received psychiatric counseling. Social isolation and concerns about loss of autonomy and control over bodily function were the causes of suicide. (Foley and Hendin, "The Oregon Report, Don't Ask, Don't Tell," Hastings Center Report, May-June 1999)
If assisted suicide is available for some......shoudnt it be available for everyone?
So if an 18 year old is depressed and wants to die, for whatever reasons......he should be able too right? Like abortion, its his body, his right. Its happening in the Netherlands.
Euthanasia has expanded to infants, the depressed and the chronically ill. (Herbert Hendin MD, Chris Rutenfrans PHD and Zbigniew Zylicz MD, "Physicians-Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia in the Netherlands", JAMA, June 4, 1997 vol.277, No 21, p. 1720)
Children as young as 12 with parental consent and those as young as 16 with parental notification can assess euthanasia. (Associated Press, Reuters, BBC, November 28,2000)
This is absolutely alarming........ 80% of euthanasia deaths are NOT requested by the patient. (Herbert Hendin MD, Chris Rutenfrans PHD and Zbigniew Zylicz MD, "Physicians-Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia in the Netherlands", JAMA, June 4, 1997 vol.277, No 21, p. 1721)
"Virtually every guideline set up by the Dutch has failed to protect patients or has been modified or violated. (Suzanne Daley, "The Dutch Seek to Legalize Long-Tolerated Euthanasia" New York Times, June 20,2000, p.A10)'
This is scary. Soon you will be able to drop grandma off at the euthanasia center to die.

reply from: galen

please stay away from my hospital room churchmouse.

reply from: nancyu

I'm with churchmouse on this, galen. If you don't want us in your hospital room, please keep it out of this public forum.

reply from: JesusLovesYou

For those of you who have no problem with euthanasia, how would you feel if your spouse or your child told your doctor to "speed things up" for whatever reasons. What if they only said it to cut medical costs or to get their inheritance more rapidly? Or what if they just didn't get along with you for whatever reasons? Or if your family can't help you, what if the government appointed some kind of "guardian" who got to decide if you live or not? The word euthanasia means "good death" and if legalized the term could be interpreted to mean any death that's "good" for anyone. King George's death wasn't "good" for him, but because it was "good" for someone he lost his choice. 1936 was a long time ago, but human nature doesn't change. If given the opportunity, there will always be people who will kill for their own convenience, and like with abortion they would all be very happy to have the justification of it being legal.

reply from: sk1bianca

i think that euthanasia is just another way to get rid of the "unwanted". because they cost too much, because we don't have time for them or simply because we don't feel like caring for them...
and the really wicked part: it's made to look as if it's in the best interest of the victim. just like saying abortion does a favor to unwanted babies.

reply from: faithman

The two are peas in the same humanist pod. Abortion makes euthanasia nessisary, as there are not enough young to take care of the old. And punk mouthed humanist want us to become more like them... No thanks!!!

reply from: JesusLovesYou

The two are peas in the same humanist pod. Abortion makes euthanasia nessisary, as there are not enough young to take care of the old. And punk mouthed humanist want us to become more like them... No thanks!!!
Exactly, soon born people will be killed for the same petty reasons we kill the unborn. Once the majority of people are old because abortion killed the younger generation, they'll start on the elderly and then move on to everyone else.

reply from: faithman

It don't take a law for them to do either. The law should protect life, not cowerse it's end.

reply from: Carifairy

FMAN- NO, the law protects OUR RIGHTS...
We SHOULD have the right to end our lives quickly and painlessly if we are terminally ill.

reply from: nancyu

caryfairy is:
I am pro abortion
I am pro adoption
I am pro parenting
...
I am pro whatever the woman wants.
I am also a woman that has had 3 abortions, and I work in an abortion clinic.
pro fessional baby killer
pro fessional anybody unwanted killer
I am a woman, would you abort someone for me? How much would it cost? Abortion is legal right? Would my insurance cover it?

reply from: faithman

And the first right we have pro-death dumb ass, is the right to life. The primary duty of government is to protect that primary right. You can kill yourself anytime you like, but it shouldn't be leagal because it violates rights, it is not a right.

reply from: galen

i wish i could say i agree with you there... but i can't i won't wish that on anyone.
But remember ... Those of you who restrict the law so that no semblance of assisted suicide is tollerated, will restrict your own access to pain relief when you are on your own way out... do you REALLY want to go there.
None of us get out of this life alive.

reply from: faithman

I was disabled in the military at age 17, and have known pain in my life everyday sence.

reply from: faithman

I am all for hospice, and have worked in hospice as a chaplin. They manage pain very well. I have held the hand of the dying, i know what is involved. We still don't kill the innocent simply because they are uncomfortable.

reply from: galen

i'm not talking about hospice....i'm speaking about hospitals...sometimes the end is bad enough or quick enough hospice can not get to you in time/ take you on its rolls in time.. especially where i live.

reply from: faithman

So start one insted of advocating suicide. The point is there are alternatives that work. There is proper pain management, and I have seen people eat up with cancer die in peace without pain naturally. No suicide nessisary. There simply is no excuse for it.

reply from: galen

that is where we differ.. and possibly i will i have been thinking about it... but it would still be governed by the same laws that allowed the original Galen to suffer... so what would it help? nothing
No i will also advocate a change in the laws and how they are applied.

reply from: faithman

You can kill yourself anytime you choose. Last I heard they don't throw corpses in jail. But doctors and nurses must never be allowed to kill. Whether it is pre-born children, or those at the end of life.

reply from: faithman

I would be very careful who you speak curses on. As God's child, He has promised to put the curse back on those who speak them against me.

reply from: faithman

I would be very careful who you speak curses on. As God's child, He has promised to put the curse back on those who speak them against me.
God doesn't exist.
Niether do you.

reply from: faithman

That's possibly the stupidest thing you have said, to date.
If I don't exist, then this post must be a figment of your insane mind.
No, just a night mare I don't seem to be able to wake up from. Of course you better hope I don't, or you will never get to whack your pecker off.

reply from: faithman

You are disturbingly obsessed with my genitalia.
You want to whack it off and I am disturb?!!!! Watch it!!! that one almost woke me up with laughter.

reply from: faithman

You don't seem to be able to read:
The only 'whacking off' happening is the act you are performing while you talk about my genitals.
Sence when has drinking coffee been called whacking off? Is that down under pecker whacker slang?

reply from: faithman

'Drinking coffee'
That's a new one for masturbation. I guess it makes sense, since it leaves you with one hand to type.
Keep it to yourself, eh?
I only bate when I go fishing. Wouldn't say I was quit a master at it. Maybe journeymanbater is more like it.

reply from: faithman

Wow, you've beaten Vernon/Faramir is the 'lamest pun ever' department.
That's quite an achievement.
Go make yourself a little certificate with glitter and macaroni.
Y thank you. But you forgot the paper plate to glue it to. Looks good on the wall though. Don't know how I will ever get the glitter off these long sleeves though. Macaroni in the diaper is kinda interesting....

reply from: 4given

Baton Rouge, LA (LifeNews.com) -- Members of the Louisiana legislature are looking at potential bills to respond to concerns that doctors and nurses may have euthanized patients in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. The bills would protect the medical professionals from lawsuits and prosecutions.
Four patients were alleged to have been killed via euthanasia in the wake of the storm and two nurses, Cheri Landry and Lori Budo.
Both saw their charges dismissed when they agreed to testify before a grand jury.
Ultimately, the office of former Attorney General Charles Foti confirmed no charges would be filed against Dr. Anna Pou either when a grand jury refused to return any indictments against her.
Now, lawmakers have approved three bills they've sent to Gov. Bobby Jindal and they have the support of the state medical association.
http://www.lifenews.com/bio2490.html
"When Foti arrested Anna Pou, it sent a chill through the entire professional community," Dr. Russell Klein, president of the Louisiana State Medical Society, told the Associated Press. "No one -- especially those who knew her well -- could believe for a minute what Foti was suggesting happened."
Two of the bills limit potential lawsuits in such natural disaster situations and a third would let prosecutors call in a panel of medical experts to review the situation and determine if a doctor or nurse engaged in euthanasia.
Dr. Kevin Jordan, medical director at Touro Infirmary, told AP the bills are too weak because prosecutors have the ultimate decision on whether to call a medical review panel or follow its recommendation.
Just before the decision not to charge Pou, hundreds of New Orleans residents protested against the investigation. Pou was not at the rally, but Budo and Landry were in the crowd.
All three worked at New Orleans' Memorial Medical Center at the time of the hurricane.
Foti launched an investigation into the deaths of 34 patients at the hospital during and after the hurricane. More than 70 witnesses were subpoenaed to testify in the probe.
Foti told CNN the investigation found that four patients were given a lethal dose of morphine and other drugs to hasten their death.
After Foti's investigation, he turned the case over to Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan who let a grand jury determine whether any charges should be sought.
National Public Radio, in February 2006, published papers from the investigation that indicated staff members had a discussion about long-term care patients on the seventh floor and what to do about them.
Three staff members told the attorney general that the plan was to leave no living patients behind and "a lethal dose would be administered" for patients deemed unable to be saved.
One doctor, Bryant King, later told CNN he overheard other conversations.
King refused to identify the people involved in the discussions and later said he never heard them talk about euthanasia, only "ending suffering." Yet the tenor of their discussion led him to believe they were planning to end the lives of patients they deemed beyond hope.
"It appeared they were proceeding with that plan," said Dr. King.
But, Dr. Pou had told Baton Rouge television station WBRZ that "There were some patients there who were critically ill who, regardless of the storm, had the orders of do not resuscitate. In other words, if they died, to allow them to die naturally, and to not use heroic methods to resuscitate them."
"We all did everything in our power to give the best treatment that we could to the patients in the hospital to make them comfortable," Pou said then.
Meanwhile, Angela McManus told AP that her 70 year-old mother was in the hospital at the time recovering from a blood infection and appeared in fine condition when relatives were told to leave the hospital. She died later that day.

reply from: yoda

Y thank you. .
Gee, I'm confused..... I thought that fartnomore claimed that he "ran her off" when he first came here...and guaranteed that she wouldn't return... and yet here she is back... what's up with that?

reply from: yoda

While standing outside the local abortion mill, the thought occurred to me that if involuntary euthanasia for parents over 70 was legal, the same parking lot half full of parents coming to kill their children on Saturday would be full of children coming to kill their parents on another day. People who would kill their own children would certainly kill their elderly parents as well.

reply from: 4given

What is frightening is that each day is a step closer to that happening. I had the thought doing eldercare. So many of the clients were left to fend for themselves- some of the children even petitioning Drs to get an order of custody so that they could be placed in nursing homes against their will. Many of them had no contact with any of their children at all. I could not help but to think that they would have thought nothing of "putting them to sleep" as they would an aging canine. (the clients I am referring to did not present with any dementia or other cognitive default that would increase the risk of safety) I happen to agree that those that would kill their children likely would have far less reservations over killing their parents as well.

reply from: faithman

Y thank you. .
Gee, I'm confused..... I thought that fartnomore claimed that he "ran her off" when he first came here...and guaranteed that she wouldn't return... and yet here she is back... what's up with that?
All your pal knows how to do is blow bean wind. Thus the nick name.

reply from: nancyu

And the first right we have pro-death dumb ass, is the right to life. The primary duty of government is to protect that primary right. You can kill yourself anytime you like, but it shouldn't be leagal because it violates rights, it is not a right.
Excellent point.

reply from: nancyu

http://www.euthanasiaprevention.on.ca/video.htm

reply from: faithman

Excellent point.
And you can be another person that I wish a painful, crippling, lingering, terminal illness upon. While you're lying in torment and unable to end it, I hope your post on here and realise how idiotic it was.
For someone who is about to slash themselves up, you sure tempt "karma"!!

reply from: faithman

Your comprehension skills suck.
A surgeon does the job. I don't 'slash myself'.
but you pay for it, so that makes you directly responcible.

reply from: faithman

I don't see what your point is.
Get back to me when you can get over your obsession with my genitals.
It is obvious you never will. Or when you have them whacked up you will go on to something else?

reply from: faithman

Carved up much?! LOL
How many babies is this saving, Faithman?
Face it. You're not pro-life.
You're just an obsessive guy with a fetish.
You want to carve yourself up, and I have the fetish? Thats rich.

reply from: JesusLovesYou

What is frightening is that each day is a step closer to that happening. I had the thought doing eldercare. So many of the clients were left to fend for themselves- some of the children even petitioning Drs to get an order of custody so that they could be placed in nursing homes against their will. Many of them had no contact with any of their children at all. I could not help but to think that they would have thought nothing of "putting them to sleep" as they would an aging canine. (the clients I am referring to did not present with any dementia or other cognitive default that would increase the risk of safety) I happen to agree that those that would kill their children likely would have far less reservations over killing their parents as well.
That's exactly the point I want to get across. People who'd kill their children would be perfectly willing to kill their parents, for whatever reasons. In fact, in theory a child could kill a parent because that parent was trying to keep them from killing their own child. What if you had an elderly parent who threatened to cut off their child's inheritance to keep them from getting an abortion? The child could kill both and get all the money right away. No excuse would be too petty. After all, women kill their children for extremely petty reasons all the time. If "I didn't feel like being pregnant so I killed my baby." is acceptable in our society, how soon before "My father got old so we had him put down" is?

reply from: faithman

Carved up much?! LOL
How many babies is this saving, Faithman?
Face it. You're not pro-life.
You're just an obsessive guy with a fetish.
You want to carve yourself up, and I have the fetish? Thats rich.
Faithman hates womb children.
Gosh!!! running out of stuff? Reduced to lieing now?

reply from: faithman

All you've been doing lately is using cut and paste or talking about cutting off penises.
Nothing about saving womb children though.
Why do you hate the womb children so much Faithman?
Why have you abandoned your innocent charges, just to talk about other people's penises?
We would have never known you wanted to cut yours off if you hadn't of brought it up. SSSSSOOOO please explain how I hate womb children. I am all set for a good laugh.

reply from: faithman

I didn't bring it up, actually, that was you - obsessing over it.
Simple. It's classic Faithman logic:
You are avoiding talking about womb children and going off topic; therefore you hate womb children.
It's good enough for you to use this kind of logic.
Don't get all pissy when it's used on you.
I never used such screwed up logic. That is the tact of borthead scum.

reply from: faithman

You must be borthead scum then.
Haha!
If it weren't SSSSOOOO sad, it would be really funny.

reply from: faithman

I'm glad you have the courage to admit it finally
That you are a sad sack? I have always admitted that.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

Carved up much?! LOL
How many babies is this saving, Faithman?
Face it. You're not pro-life.
You're just an obsessive guy with a fetish.
You want to carve yourself up, and I have the fetish? Thats rich.
Actually, faithman, I believe you are extremely sexually attracted to Vexing. For all the wrong reasons, of course. You should see someone. Unrequited attraction can be quite unhealthy.

reply from: sander

Lowly, can't you go play out in the street?

reply from: LolitaOlivia

Now, now, if I played in the street I might get hit by a car. How pro-life of you.

reply from: sander

Now, now, if I played in the street I might get hit by a car. How pro-life of you.
You can play dodge the car....too bad the baby in the womb can't play dodge the abortionist.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

Now, now, if I played in the street I might get hit by a car. How pro-life of you.
You can play dodge the car....too bad the baby in the womb can't play dodge the abortionist.
You do realize I'm pregnant right? It's funny how you're only pro-life with unwanted fetuses.

reply from: churchmouse

And would I want a health care worker like you taking care of me ?........LOL
No thanks. I want one who is pro-life.
You think you would like pulling plugs eh?
So let me get this right.......you stand on the side of life for the unborn, but you see no problems with people walking in and killing themselves for whatever the reason?
What did I post you did not like or agree with? Which factual statment?
Oh pleaze.......Medicine today does wonders with pain. In fact we are a society that hands out pain medication like asprin. Should we be like horses,,,,,,,take people out back and shoot em? Thats what it will be like if laws are passed for assisted suicide.
This like abortion will make a lot of doctors wealthy. Ahhhhhh the killing business is just so profitable isnt it?
Jesuslovesyou made some very good points.
bianca also said something very true and scary.
Hitler used those same terms, thought the same way. So did Maragret Sanger.......the easier it is to get rid of the "unwanted, the undesireables" the better off society will be.
No one should have to be in pain. My mother died of schleroderma. It is one of the most painful things you can die from, ask any doctor. She was in pain, but we controled it, and when hospice finally came in, they medicated her to the point that she finally just slept all day. It can be done.
You legalize assisted suicide and it will be a mess. A friend of mine, lost all three of her kids in a car accident, she survived. she wanted to die. Was her pain less than someone with physical pain? She did not want to live, she still doesnt and it happened over ten years ago. She simply wants to die. So if this were legalized, should she have the right, to do what she wants to do and end her life. What if a soldier comes back from war with one leg and wants to end it? You going to tell him he cant? They legalized abortion for the hard cases, rape etc. They will legalize this and the same things will happen. It will be assisted suicide for any reason on anybody.
And who you would be to be able to say they couldnt. Its their body right?
fairy we are all terminally ill. We are all dying.
I challenge all of you to research this. Look into Oregon and what is happening there. You think doctors have to report anything? You think they have to have proof that the patient has a terminal illness? You would be surprised.
Look into assisted suicide in the Netherlands. Anyone can do it. is that what we want in America?
faithman is right
AMEN TO THAT
I knew you were a hateful person but this just proves it vexing.
and this
then you go after nancy......
Unbelievable how mean and cruel you are. Unbelievable.......

The reason you obviously seem to be so cruel.
And he has the fetish? LOL
Yoda you get statement of the week.
Well said and of course you are right.

reply from: galen

CHM
galen said, "please stay away from my hospital room churchmouse."
And would I want a health care worker like you taking care of me ?........LOL
No thanks. I want one who is pro-life.
You think you would like pulling plugs eh?
So let me get this right.......you stand on the side of life for the unborn, but you see no problems with people walking in and killing themselves for whatever the reason?
What did I post you did not like or agree with? Which factual statment?
galen said, "But remember ... Those of you who restrict the law so that no semblance of assisted suicide is tollerated, will restrict your own access to pain relief when you are on your own way out... do you REALLY want to go there.
Oh pleaze.......Medicine today does wonders with pain. In fact we are a society that hands out pain medication like asprin. Should we be like horses,,,,,,,take people out back and shoot em? Thats what it will be like if laws are passed for assisted suicide.
_____________________________________________________________
you are exactly the type of self centred narcisissitic person that everyone should fear... the type who will chant at a dying person's bedside that the pain will set them free....
When you get a medical degree you will learn that when a person's nervous system shuts down/ or goes haywire sometimes there is NOTHING modern science can do to help. Go talk to a few nuerosurgeons about the pain associated with a brain tumor's growth and the pain associated with CNS lupus... those a 2 things that i am intimately aware of... and NO they can not stop the pain... not with nueroleptics and not with anesthesia... you see you can not do a block on the brain... you kill the patient. In fact in those 2 instances many of the narcotics used will make the pain worse... it overstimulates the pain receptors in the perifrial nervouse system...
so before you make a pronouncement GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT... then get back to me.

reply from: galen

Oh and BTW... I AM for assisted suicide in terminally ill people... not in everyone... a thing you would have known had you read ANYTHING i had posted on the subject, and if you had the brain that God gave cynobacteria.

reply from: churchmouse

That is not true. I would hope to get to them before you janked the plug out of the wall, or gave them the lethal injection of drug that would kill them.
Medicine has come a long way.........Doctors can control pain for the most part today.
If I were at any dying persons bedside I would ask them if they would like to pray.
I would tell them about Christ if they already didnt know Him but wanted to. Life for a Christian really starts after death.
Don't tell me about pain, my mother died of schleroderma.That is one of the most painful deaths there is. I have fibromyalgia and have had a hip replacement, knee and shoulder surgery already. I have arthritis so bad some days I can barely move. I take medicine that helps control my pain. Some days are worse than others.......but I manage.
So are you suggesting that because people are in pain they should kill themselves?
Wow are you a kind person galen. LOL
Your against killing the unborn, but for killing the elderly. You obviously are not pro-life in all circumstances. You say your in the medical field.........and your point? My sister is a surgeon and my brother in law is a doctor. And your point?
And your degree is in what?
What if a teenager were terminal galen? A child? Do you kill them when they first find out.......or wait hoping something changes, that they might get better?
So you are for assisted suicide for anyone that wants to die. How about someone that is so depressed they don't want to live anymore? Do they meet your criteria?
Just how do you pick and choose what is terminal enough and who can do it....? Really what business is it of yours if someone wants to die, if they are of sound mind? What? psychological pain is not as bad as physical pain?
What if an elderly person lost their spouse and didnt want to go on becuase their heart was broken? Do you have the right to say no to the request they might make?
How about a ninety year old that just doesnt want to live, that has run out of money?
You open the door to making assisted suicide legal and we will have utter chaos in this country. Kill the unborn, kill the handicapped, kill the mentally ill...........but assisted suicide is right in line with abortion......
http://www.dredf.org/assisted_suicide/assisted_suicide.shtml

http://www.noassistedsuicide.com/

Look at Oregon.
http://www.noassistedsuicide.com/oredocs.pdf

http://www.noassistedsuicide.com/oregon.html

http://www.noassistedsuicide.com/oresafe.pdf

You know galen. I do not have a medical degree but I do know this, that killing is NOT CARING. It may be compassionate, it may seem even merciful, but its not caring. Caring requires sacrifice and personal involvment. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are neither of these. They promise ONLY that death will be painless and fast.
I believe the Hopsice approach is much better. It provides the terminally ill with relief from the symptoms of terminal illness in a loving manner. It gives the terminally ill the one thing he has least of--time. Time to seek and give forgiveness and to love to those that are important to them.
What do you have against Hospice?
In the final scheme of things the issues are reduced to a question of who will control the exit gates of life. God is the One who decides when its someones time to die.
Job 1:5
Man's days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
I'll throw this one back at ya..............
Get back to me after you look into Oregon and what has been going on there......with their humane law.
Our country fears disability. We shove the diabled and our elderly into the background. We treat them as second class citizens. Why? We place a premium on health and fitness. So where do the elderly go......OUT OF SIGHT. Whatever caregiving that any hospice or health care profession does it cant do what family members and friends can. So how do we improve care? Or dont we need to if we just kill all the elderly?
Is killing them because they are depressed the answer?
You say if its terminal..........is ok to kill.
How about these galen.......
A twenty year old quadriplegic?
A fifty year old in the beginning stages of ALS?
A thirty year old woman that just found out she has pancreatic cancer?
A child that has an uncurable form of cancer?
I mean why should these people have to wait until the disease takes them, eh galen... lets just take them to the neighborhood assisted suicide mill and dispose of them. Make it easier on society and their families.
Well........its like women who believe they have the right to place their personal interests ahead of the interests of their unborn children. Rather than face the inconvenience for nine months, they rid themselves of the burden.
Lets rid ourselves of the burden of the sick, the handicapped, the mentally ill......and lets just do it with the states blessing. How sad.
Obviously abortion has conditioned you to accept the dangerous notion that there is such a thing as a life not worth living........even if it only has a short time.
For a society to endorse the idea that a person can become a problem only to be solved by killing, is dangerous.
What kind of society will we be when our doctors embrace the idea that they have a moral obgligation to kill patients they cant cure?
What have we become already when we allow women to kill their own children?
Whatever safeguards you might say will be there preventing problems, will provide little or no protection for extremely vulverable people.
The unborn are vulnerable, the handicapped are vulnerable, the elderly, the mentally ill, the terminal are all vulnerable.
So galen should doctors be killers?
They thought so in Auschwitz.........I pray they don't in America.
For you obviously but not for me, there is a big difference between killing a person and allowing death to occur.
No I dont want you anywhere near my hospital room.

reply from: galen

uh huh...so CM you twist my words again... no one said that I would give you a lethal injection...
I did say that I was for the right to recieve as much pain medicine as possible to ease or relieve my suffering and ifr that failed have the ability to have my doctor to assist me to die.
Guess what.. you are not a physician...I at least have a Phd in my feil and teach neonatology, obsetric nutrition , and midwifery at the local U.
I at least have a bit of knowledge to back me up.
I have nothing against hospice... but i see you have something against brain tumour patients... never did get around to talking to that nuerosurgeon yet did you?
Any ADULT who is terminally ill should be able to make themselves known to their physician when it comes to their wishes regarding death. Should the patient choose and the doctor be willing there is no reason that the non pregnant adult should not have controll over how they die when terminal.
none of the examples you cited are terminal people.. if/ when they are...if they can make an adult descision on the matter their wishes should be respected.
I have never advocated this for anyone who is not terminally ill...
YOU obviously have a great need to inflict needless suffering on people you don't even know... you my dear are the worst type of evangelist... you are a liar .
If you were not you would never have twisted what i said to you in such a way... you would have met me with my entire statement and not cute little quips ....
instead of preaching pearly gates and the rainbows of hospice maybe you should actually get into a real hospice and see what it is like for a young healthy brain cancer patient to die...
I have done extensive research on my own diagnosis and i am quite sure i know the facts...
i absolutely think that if you had to live with 10 x the pain you were experienceing and no medication would touch it.. you might change your mind... then again you might not... such should be your right, just as a pregnant woman in labour has the right to refuse meds so should anyone have the right to refuse an offer of assisted suicide...no one should even be offered it unless they are terminal..
i am also quite sure that the right to die without pain and without creatures like you haunting my halls and fighting for MY life in the courts should i become incapacitated....is one of the most sacred rights i will have.
You cite Oregon... and yet i DO NOT SEE patients dying like flies in the hospices.. i DO see in my own state people dying in agony because people like YOU sit around in hospitals and file needless complaints on behalf of 'that poor patient'... even people who have living wills...
I think your blind adhereance to faith and your fibro fog have clouded your judgement.. God gave us a brain and the ability to be compassionate. I believe our death is the one thing between ourselves and God.. you go your way... please do not dictate to me how i go mine.

reply from: churchmouse

You said you were for assisted suicide, didn't you?
Killing is killing........what would be your method of choice to kill patients?
I believe you said, I am for doctor assisted suicide, not just pain control. ...The right of an individual to have a doctor kill them. What difference should it make how its done.
Wonderful. Congratulations. Bravo. "I at least have?" LOL
Meaning what? That I don't deserve to respond because I am not a doctor? Boy do you think highly of yourself and your credentials.
There are many doctors on the staff of PP all over the country.....with degrees, does that make them right? Are you saying a degree makes you more moral to make decisions? I base my decisions on the scriptures. You might use your fancy textbooks.......and that is ok. But I am a Christian and I use scriptures to tell me what is right and wrong. And I believe the scriptures are clear that doctor assisted suicide is wrong.
Ever here of Tiller? He has degrees too.
And I can read galen. I can read the facts. I work at Right to Life of Arizona. We have people, educators, doctors........that come in to talk to us about the facts. Do you need a degree to know what is going on? Have you ever had an abortion? If not galen, I am sorry you just don't know what your talking about. You can't comment. LOL
Oh yea? Could you please post anywhere........where I have said anything against brain tumor patients not being in pain?
Talk to one.......? You want me to just find one out of the phone book, call up and ask the receptionist to put him on simply because I have a few questions to ask him? And why are we just talking about brain tumors here? Aren't we talking about all pain? You single out that just because you have dealt with it personally which is fine but more than brain cancer patients suffer with pain. Are you the expert?
What is terminally? My dad has been terminal for three years now, and he played golf yesterday with minimal pain. My mother who had scleroderma was in terrible pain and was terminal as well.
Should my dad be able to walk in after a round of golf and ask to be put to death, just because he has a terminal disease and is in pain? What if someone walks in and fakes it.
Sorry if you are pro-doctor assisted suicide you are not pro-life, not in the real sense of the word.
You know I have no clue as to what your worldview is. I am guessing that you are not a Christian, because if you were you would know that God gives life and He decides when to take it. If you aren't then your case makes more sense because life's meaning for you is different than life does for me.
What is your worldview galen?
Do you have the right to tell someone they can't die because they don't have a good of enough reason? How will you pick and choose the candidates?
Me inflict? ROFL
You are the one advocating killing galen .......(just because someone is terminal), you want to play God by taking a life........just throw out the Hippocratic oath why don't ya.......and you say I am the one doing the damage. Come on now.
You can call me whatever you want........but you are the one that wants to kill. And if you did this......you would be no better than the abortionist that kills the unborn child. God did not give you that right.
I don't need to twist what you say here.........its in black and white.
Well obviously you answered my question you are not a Christian.
I was involved with Hospice three times in my life, when my mother died, my aunt, and my uncle died. Probably over four years total. My best friend runs a Hospice Center in Michigan. I know what they do, and how they operate. They do wonderful things, they give excellent care. And for the most part they manage peoples pain. God took my mother when He was ready. The doctors, Hospice did what they could to help her. They were both very compassionate........and they did it without killing her. God took her when He was ready.
What Christ suffered was immeasurable. No pain could even compare to what He endured. A Christian would remember that. You act like the pain you have is the worst that anyone has had to suffer.
You talk about pain.......obviously you know NOTHING ABOUT SCLERODERMA do you? You make it seem no one but you knows what pain is.
Is your pain any more than a mother who has just lost a child? A husband who has just lost a wife? Someone that lost a child in war? I mean how do you compare pain?
Then do what you have to do and I will do the same. I will work against doctor assisted suicide in my state just like I work against abortion and embryonic stem cell and euthanasia.
I don't share your passion for killing the terminal sorry. You seem to want to play God, and that is what happens when you kill someone on your time not His.
You spin this anyway you want........but facts are facts. If God wanted someone He would take them. HE WOULD TAKE THEM. And for whatever reason someone goes through what they do.........its not for us to say, its Gods plan.
People need to get saved........you kill someone before they just might have had the chance.to do this.....and you take whatever time they had to come to know God away. More than anyone else, Christians have a major stake in what happens to people at the end of life. And we remember one thing, our pain is NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT CHRIST WENT THROUGH.
It is obvious you do not see one difference between killing someone and ALLOWING DEATH to occur. How sad.
If you think that the terminal has the right to die.......then you should also apply the same sense of moral obligation to others that want to control their own destiny. What's pain to you might not be to someone else.
Legalizing this will open the door to bad things and the vulnerable will be the ones that suffer.
We should always err on the side of life. To bad you just don't get that.
_________________
vexing.......just cant clean up the potty mouth can ya? LOL
Is your situation a fetish?.........hmmmmmm
I'm not sure what you are actually. I know you are intolerant.
You have a filthy mouth and you seem like you could be violent based on what you say here.
I know God loves you though no matter what you are. And If you asked Him into your heart, He would change you, and you would become His.
You know I don't sit here on a daily basis all day responding and it takes time to get back to replying sometimes. I work, obviously you don't and are able to be on here 2/7.

reply from: galen

you know CM.. you reminde me of the pharisees... they too were full of them selves...
I now consider you with the same group scairyfairy, is in.. go back to the pit of hell that spawned you.

reply from: galen

and vexing is right... you are a bigot.

reply from: nancyu

I agree with churchmouse's view on euthanasia. I don't agree with her completely on her opinion of vexing, but I understand it. Maybe you all should learn to be more tolerant of other peoples intolerance for things they consider sinful. It's called freedom of religion, and churchmouse is entitled to her opinion. If vexing doesn't like it she is free to go fly a kite, or whatever she prefers to do with people who can accept her as she is.

reply from: nancyu

Churchmouse's opinion is wrong, so why should I have to tolerate it?
If I called you a sexual deviant with no actual evidence, would YOU tolerate that?
No I wouldn't. I have been accused of being a murderer by her, and I didn't tolerate it. That doesn't mean she is wrong to be against murder, and she isn't wrong to be against sexually deviant behavior. She's entitled to that opinion.

reply from: faithman

These are just opinions, and everybody is entitled to their own? Is vexing entitled to her opinions on these topics as well?
But borty opinions are like http://www.armyofgod.com/Baby10.html and only those who kill babies have one to their credit. [except CM, and she has 3]

reply from: galen

_______________________________________________________________
i am as tolerant as i want to be in this situation... she is free to post what she wants... i am free to respond...

reply from: Faramir

She's pretty much summing up Catholic doctrine about euthanasia.
It's not fair to say she's from the "pit of hell."
The Church's position about euthanasia comes infallibly from God.
She refuses to embrace your heretical position. That means she comes from hell? Is that how you see all who oppose euthanasia and Catholics who stay true to their faith regarding life issues?

reply from: Faramir

A practicing Catholic accepts all dogma as if it comes from God. If they reject anything, they are rejecting God and saying they are smarter or better than God.
If they believe the Church is making a mistake, then they are denying the very foundation of Catholicism, that the Church is guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit.
The Church is not a "cafeteria" where a believer picks and chooses what he likes and rejects what he doesn't like.
But nobody is forced to be in the club. If you don't buy it, you don't have to stay.
But what galen is preaching is heresy. As a Catholic, she is going against the Church in the same way as some Catholics who rationalize birth control and abortion.
I'm not going to speculate what God thinks or would want, especially since God has made it clear through the Church He gave us.

reply from: Faramir

That's as it should be.
Either accept the rules and play the game or don't.
You can't join a baseball team and then expect that because you think it's nice if you could get 4 strikes instead of 3, that that would be cool with everyone else.
Catholicism is not a "pick and choose" religion. It's either of God or it is not. If I did not believe it was of God, I would leave. It's not that you can't think for yourself. You can. You can choose to join and you can choose to leave.
But dogma is dogma. The Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments. They are not suggestions.
I have no business making Catholicism in my own image. It is in God's image. And if it can make mistakes, and if somehow I could be smarter or better than the Church, then it is obviously not of God, and I would leave, since I would not want to be part of a sham religion.
The Church has spoken decisively and forcefully about euthanasia and the evil that it is. Whether I like it or not, I must accept that. I must accept that God knows more than I know, and that there is a reason it must be this way, even if I don't understand it.
If I could reject something I don't like, then someone else could reject the teaching about contraception, antother about abortion. And then why couldn't the Theology of the Trinity be questioned too? Maybe there are only two persons and not three in the Godhead. Maybe there are four. Maybe Jesus is just a symbol. Etc., etc.
You don't buy what the Church says about itself and that's fine. I respect that. But I would not respect if you wanted to be a "cafeteria catholic" and pick out the stuff that seems appealing, and then present "your" view of Catholicism as if it's perfectly fine that you have the right as a Catholic to reject whatever you don't like. You would not have that right, and that would be misleading to others.

reply from: Faramir

Of course not. You're Catholic. You don't have to think about it at all. The church will tell you what to believe.
The Church has all the knowledge God has chosen to reveal to man regarding faith and morals. The Church is speaking for God. I am not smarter or better than God. And neither is Galen, who claims to be a Catholic.

reply from: galen

uhh huh... and i rspectfully think that what i belive is not the same thing... but belive me i have a bisop to tell me when i am wrong or argue the point with me... churchmouse had no idea of what she speaks and she preaches about what SHE believes her version of the truth is... not what God really wants.
I'm sure i'll find out before the 2 of yu anyway...maybe i'll come back and let you know.
Besides the Church is NOT against pain controll...so what's the point of this... pain controll should not be withheld from someone just because it might make them die quicker...
So Faramir.. are YOU going to be the one to stand outside my door and listen to me scream....?

reply from: galen

bump for Faramir....are you going to listen to me scream?

reply from: galen

That's as it should be.
Either accept the rules and play the game or don't.
You can't join a baseball team and then expect that because you think it's nice if you could get 4 strikes instead of 3, that that would be cool with everyone else.
Catholicism is not a "pick and choose" religion. It's either of God or it is not. If I did not believe it was of God, I would leave. It's not that you can't think for yourself. You can. You can choose to join and you can choose to leave.
But dogma is dogma. The Ten Commandments are the Ten Commandments. They are not suggestions.
I have no business making Catholicism in my own image. It is in God's image. And if it can make mistakes, and if somehow I could be smarter or better than the Church, then it is obviously not of God, and I would leave, since I would not want to be part of a sham religion.
The Church has spoken decisively and forcefully about euthanasia and the evil that it is. Whether I like it or not, I must accept that. I must accept that God knows more than I know, and that there is a reason it must be this way, even if I don't understand it.
If I could reject something I don't like, then someone else could reject the teaching about contraception, antother about abortion. And then why couldn't the Theology of the Trinity be questioned too? Maybe there are only two persons and not three in the Godhead. Maybe there are four. Maybe Jesus is just a symbol. Etc., etc.
You don't buy what the Church says about itself and that's fine. I respect that. But I would not respect if you wanted to be a "cafeteria catholic" and pick out the stuff that seems appealing, and then present "your" view of Catholicism as if it's perfectly fine that you have the right as a Catholic to reject whatever you don't like. You would not have that right, and that would be misleading to others.
____________________________________________________
you state that this is a game?....we're not playing a game faramir... this is faith and something that goes deep to the heart of my being. i don't belive simply beacause the Church says so.. i belive what i belive at the core of my soul...because of what i have learned and what i have seen and what life and God have taught me. I have been catholic from birth.. i will bd catholic when i die. i am sure God will tech me what i need before i die, and we will discuss my life when i am gone.
What gives YOU the right to talk to me about dogma...? Did i ask you? no i stated my opinion on the subject at hand... and i think i have a rather personal insight on this subject.

reply from: churchmouse

I believed she said she was for legalized doctor assisted suicide. Now with the case of abortion........it to was only for the tough cases. So you legalize this......and eventually it will be doctors assisted suicide on demand, all ages. (it already is in Oregon).
How can you stand on life and condone someone taking a life for whatever the reason is?
There certainly is a potential for abuse, thats why it should never be legalized. We are talking about the rights of people, in this case the right to end a life because of pain. That has been galens only reason for suidide. As I said, before, emotional pain can be worse. I had a friend that lost three of her children in a car accident. She happen to turn left in front of an oncoming car, it was her fault. She has never been the same and she is in pain every day of her life. Should you tell her she does not have the right just because she is in her forties and its not physical pain?
You talk about the FACTS....
Pain is not even in the top three reasons why patients want to kill themselves.
Lets look at Oregon. On the chart showing the reasons why patients want to die......they give losing autonomy as the main reason. Number two and three is a tie between inability to enjoy activities and loss of dignity. Number four....loss of body functions. Being a burden comes in fifth. Pain comes in sixth.
Do you notice that none of the patients killed in 2007 were even sent for a psych exam. Look at the numbers.
As you can see......after reading the notes below......accurate records are not kept.
Most patients are between the ages of 55 and 84 year old. 86% had terminal cancer. What about the other 14% ? Look at this chart.
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/docs/yr10-tbl-2.pdf
">http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/p.../yr10-tbl-2.pdf
Interesting........
Look at this report. Notice how many "unknown" statistics were given. Doctors do not report.
So abuse????? Yea I'd say someone could get away with abusing this wouldn't you?
Oregon is a joke.
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/orexp.htm
">http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/orexp.htm
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/orrpt10.htm
">http://www.internationaltaskfo...org/orrpt10.htm
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/docs/year10.pdf
">http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/docs/year10.pdf
http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/pdf/ten_years_oregon.pdf
">http://www.internationaltaskfo...ears_oregon.pdf

That will not happen. It didn't in Oregon and it wont anywhere else.
The word rape and pedophilia don't appear in the Bible either, but do you think God would condone either one of them?
God speaks about loving His creation and this is shown throughout the entire Bible. He gives life.......and He should take it. Doctors try to save lives, make life comfortable, but they should not end a life before God decides to take it.
Does God respect? Yes but He also shows wrath. Whatever He shows, its just.
Can the church bee wrong. Yes. That's why I look only to the Word found in scriptures.
You know find me one instance in the bible Concerned where God condones assisted suicide......even suicide. Old Testament or New.......find me examples of people taking their own lives with the help and blessings of doctors and of God.
When we deal with pain......we should lift our hearts and eyes and lay it all on Him. He said, He would never leave us. No one said the Christian walk would be easy, even for believers. We will experience emotional and physical pain. We should remember and concentrate on the life He gave us.......and to the pain HE went through for us.

reply from: churchmouse

Thanks nancy. Legalizing this will make groups of people vulnerable, just like it did the unborn child. Pain is not the main reason people want to die.
As for vexing........sorry his posts are disturbing.
Nancy I did not just say, you are a murderer. We were talking about birth control......and the fact that is causes abortions. I said anyone that has used birth control could very well have killed an innocent life in the womb. You have used birth control.......the possibility is there. Is it not?

reply from: yoda

We are all as free to post here as Mark decides we are.

reply from: churchmouse

Well I happen to think your opinion is wrong. It's not what you are that offends me. It's that you think that I should be FORCED to accept your actions and live with it when it directly affects me. You said you do NOT CARE WHAT ANYONE THINKS, YOU ARE GOING INTO THE FEMALE BATHROOMS. You show lack of compassion for those that disagree with you. You think we should tolerate.......but you certainly do not apply it to yourself.
Could you post vexing, where I actually said, you were a sexual deviant. We simply talked about you going into the female restroom. The only think I said, that IMO you needed to have an operation.......to make you physically female.
Post where I said it. Then post where I said, you had a fetish, in those exact words. You are a liar. I never said, that. I did in fact say, I didn't know what you were but that you were intolerant.

reply from: churchmouse

And I am not even Catholic. You don't have to be to see the biblical response to suicide. I don't think its necessarily Catholic doctrine.......its biblical.
I see what you are saying but I don't belong to a denomination or club. I do not feel I have to.
Has the CC ever made mistakes before? There have been Popes in the past that certainly were not perfect by any sense of the imagination. Their influence was not good for the church as whole. I am NOT CATHOLIC BASHING when I say this.....but like others have said, no one, not the POPE, pastors, priests......are perfect. The church is NOT without error.
I do not and will never put my faith in a church. I do not need a church, I need Christ and I put my trust and my faith in Him. That is why I look to the scriptures for the TRUTH. I don't believe the Church speaks for God.......I believe His own Word does the job just fine.
I do attend a church but its a nondenominational one. We have a sign outside that says, NO PERFECT PEOPLE ALLOWED. Anyone is welcome. But my relationship is with Christ, not a Church.
Faramir the thing I agree with you on is that the Word calls sin for what it is, sin. It is clear what is sin. And we should stand on that. It is clear that after reading the bible.......God would never like with abortion, condone suicide. You cant pick and choose what is true in the Bible and what is not. Its either all true....or false. And if that its all false.......then Christianity has been the worlds biggest hoax ever.
As I said.......let them find evidence for any kind of suicide in the Word.
No and neither is the bible.....just killing on demand for what ever the reason.
I undertood you said, you were for doctor assisted suicide. Which in most cases is an injection of something that kills. That is not pain management galen.

reply from: sander

I fail to understand why prolifers don't get the connection of the same slippery slope that abortion took concerning euthanasia.
It will open the door wide and far and it'll be about as easy to close as we're finding the door to abortion.
People need to be careful what "they" wish for, becuase it well may be that we all get that wish.

reply from: Faramir

I've simply stated Catholic dogma as I understand it.
Your personal insights do not trump those of the Church.

reply from: Faramir

I fail to understand why prolifers don't get the connection of the same slippery slope that abortion took concerning euthanasia.
It will open the door wide and far and it'll be about as easy to close as we're finding the door to abortion.
People need to be careful what "they" wish for, becuase it well may be that we all get that wish.
From a religious perspective, suffering has a purpose.
I don't want to suffer, and I don't want others to suffer, but it's in God's hands whether that's to be, and not in my hands to end my life purposely or end the lives of others.
And I'm not going to vote for assisted suicide, because that makes me complicit and I would be one pulling the trigger too. And I'm not going to turn a doctor into a killer. He or she has sworn an oath to heal. Their job is to heal. Their job is not to kill.
From a practical perspective, I can see the "slippery slope." I can see the elderly and sick being pressured by their children or those they are burdening to think about just getting it over with. And I can see some of them complying out of guilt, or out of a sense of not wanting to be a bother.
Euthanasia must be opposed with the same passion and force that abortion is opposed. A lot less might die by euthanasia than by abortion, but it is the other side of the same coin, and it is a grave injusitice.
That does not mean that the suffering should not be helped. It does not mean that extraordinary measures must be used to keep life going. Nobody has to agree to be strapped to giant machinces to eek out a couple more months of life. And there is nothing wrong with pain reilief, even if an unintended consequence of that pain relief is to shorten the life.
But nobody should be killed on purpose--especially by a doctor. That is a perversion of medicine, as is abortion.

reply from: sander

I fail to understand why prolifers don't get the connection of the same slippery slope that abortion took concerning euthanasia.
It will open the door wide and far and it'll be about as easy to close as we're finding the door to abortion.
People need to be careful what "they" wish for, becuase it well may be that we all get that wish.
From a religious perspective, suffering has a purpose.
I don't want to suffer, and I don't want others to suffer, but it's in God's hands whether that's to be, and not in my hands to end my life purposely or end the lives of others.
And I'm not going to vote for assisted suicide, because that makes me complicit and I would be one pulling the trigger too. And I'm not going to turn a doctor into a killer. He or she has sworn an oath to heal. Their job is to heal. Their job is not to kill.
From a practical perspective, I can see the "slippery slope." I can see the elderly and sick being pressured by their children or those they are burdening to think about just getting it over with. And I can see some of them complying out of guilt, or out of a sense of not wanting to be a bother.
Euthanasia must be opposed with the same passion and force that abortion is opposed. A lot less might die by euthanasia than by abortion, but it is the other side of the same coin, and it is a grave injusitice.
That does not mean that the suffering should not be helped. It does not mean that extraordinary measures must be used to keep life going. Nobody has to agree to be strapped to giant machinces to eek out a couple more months of life. And there is nothing wrong with pain reilief, even if an unintended consequence of that pain relief is to shorten the life.
But nobody should be killed on purpose--especially by a doctor. That is a perversion of medicine, as is abortion.
Very well said.
I was at a street fair last weekend, and there was a "death with dignity" petition drive going on. I was waiting nearby to meet up with my family members and I watcher person after person sign that, from the youngest of voting age to the oldest. All I could do was weep and pray that God will have mercy and not allow enough signatures to make the ballot this November.
But, this is a very, very liberal state....so, I think we're in for it here where I live.
God help us.

reply from: Faramir

I LIVE in a state where physician assisted suicide is legal.

reply from: sander

Yikes! What kind of percautions are you taking?
I plan on putting it in writing, NO assisted death. Not that I know if that will help, but just in case.

reply from: Teresa18

The Catholic Church is opposed to assisted suicide. It teaches that God is the author of life, and he alone should decide when life begins and ends. There will be suffering in life, but we are to unite our lives with Christ and our suffering with his on the cross.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

reply from: faithman

this excerpt from the above post proves that I have been right.2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67
The United states constitution says that "WE THE PEOPLE" are the authority in this country. The second amendment gives WE THE PEOPLE the power to back up our authority. Is Abortion an evil aggression against the personhood of the child in the womb? Are we to consider the womb child a part of the civil community? Should we continue to protect evil aggressors insted of the innocent womb child that by church doctrine, and constitutional writ says is our common civil duty to defend? Doesn't burning clinics render the evil agressor from causing harm to those who are defencless to protect themselves? Does not church doctrine also declare that any law passed by the government that does not line up with God's law, is no law at all? Doesn't the above post state that the right of a person to live begin at conception? It is my earnest hope that we can end this peaceful. But I can not condemn those you seriously answere these questions with a yes. If this were a righteous nation, and we acted upon the doctrine posted above, then every abortion clinic would burn to the ground this day, and every evil agresive abortionist, and abortion minded woman, and everyone involved in the consiracy to commit violence against the womb child, will meet justice handed down by a jury of 12. That is not hate , or vengance, or murder, or any other thing the wicked want to call it. That is simply, grave, justice and a duty.

reply from: Teresa18

The Netherlands and Euthanasia
http://lifenews.com/bio2419.html

Perhaps I'm confused, but all these numbers have to be added together to get the total. Because the numbers he suggested were in addition to the 2,120. So:
2,120 + 900 + 500 + 4,000 + 1,800 + 90 + 1,000 = 10,410
One of the things to take into consideration is the universal healthcare they have in the Netherlands. If we get universal healthcare, your "right to die" may become your DUTY to die. The government is paying for it, so if they deem it's in the best interest for you to die as opposed to continuing funding, they may do so. There have been cases of people on welfare fighting to continue their treatments because they don't want to die, but the government deems them "terminal", so they don't want to continue treatment.

reply from: galen

And I am not even Catholic. You don't have to be to see the biblical response to suicide. I don't think its necessarily Catholic doctrine.......its biblical.
I see what you are saying but I don't belong to a denomination or club. I do not feel I have to.
Has the CC ever made mistakes before? There have been Popes in the past that certainly were not perfect by any sense of the imagination. Their influence was not good for the church as whole. I am NOT CATHOLIC BASHING when I say this.....but like others have said, no one, not the POPE, pastors, priests......are perfect. The church is NOT without error.
I do not and will never put my faith in a church. I do not need a church, I need Christ and I put my trust and my faith in Him. That is why I look to the scriptures for the TRUTH. I don't believe the Church speaks for God.......I believe His own Word does the job just fine.
I do attend a church but its a nondenominational one. We have a sign outside that says, NO PERFECT PEOPLE ALLOWED. Anyone is welcome. But my relationship is with Christ, not a Church.
Faramir the thing I agree with you on is that the Word calls sin for what it is, sin. It is clear what is sin. And we should stand on that. It is clear that after reading the bible.......God would never like with abortion, condone suicide. You cant pick and choose what is true in the Bible and what is not. Its either all true....or false. And if that its all false.......then Christianity has been the worlds biggest hoax ever.
As I said.......let them find evidence for any kind of suicide in the Word.
No and neither is the bible.....just killing on demand for what ever the reason.
I undertood you said, you were for doctor assisted suicide. Which in most cases is an injection of something that kills. That is not pain management galen.
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that all depends on what a patient's wishes for THIER pain management are.

reply from: Faramir

Hiring a killer to end their lives is not pain "management."

reply from: RiverMoonLady

It appears that more doctors are giving their terminally ill patients a choice by providing them with a month's supply of pain medication and sleeping pills. The patient is then able, IF S/HE DESIRES, to end their lives before death can come naturally.
I would be in favor of making this legal as long as it applies ONLY to patients who are terminally ill, mentally competent and have been interviewed at length by at least 2 physicians, one of which must be a psychiatrist.
Why? My dad suffered needlessly while dying from lung cancer and BEGGED to be given an overdose of morphine. My mother, an RN, could not do it because of her medical oath. She admitted that, lacking that oath, she would have assisted him in leaving his pain behind.

reply from: galen

Hiring a killer to end their lives is not pain "management."
____________________________________________________
nope that'a why we have medical professionals. i'm not hiring a killer i'm controlling my pain management. There is a big diffrence.
you never answered my question faramir... care to listen outside my room door?

reply from: Faramir

Hiring a killer to end their lives is not pain "management."
____________________________________________________
nope that'a why we have medical professionals. i'm not hiring a killer i'm controlling my pain management. There is a big diffrence.
you never answered my question faramir... care to listen outside my room door?
My comments are not directed at you personally, and I don't know what your question is.
A doctor who kills his patient is a killer. A doctor should be a healer and not a killer.
If I support legistlation that allows a doctor to be a killer, it's no different than voting for prochoice candidates who also support legislation allowing doctors to be killers.
I must oppose euthansia or I'm in-part responsible for those doctors who pull the trigger.

reply from: Faramir

If I were there, I would rather be in the room offering whatever comfort I could.
I don't want you to suffer. I don't want to suffer either. And even for a healthy person, seeing someone in pain is very hard and very emotionally painful.
Why does it have to be that way, anyway?
There's nothing wrong for a patient to take whatever pain killers are necessary, even if they shorten life. It's the ouright lethal injection that I object to, not only personally from my own reason, but more importantly, it's part of my faith.
I might be a sinner, but I can't rebel against my own faith and support something contrary to it.

reply from: galen

it is the way it is right now... maybe we as a country aborted the person who would cure this type of pain.

reply from: galen

but we'll never know will we... and thats what is so bad... we might need that development to crush the next bad guy... so what is the point of killing all those potentially great people?
What if your hope to have a baby as a woman has been flushed down a drain... or your hope to adopt. would that not affect you?

reply from: RiverMoonLady

A doctor who kills his patient is a killer. A doctor should be a healer and not a killer.
If I support legistlation that allows a doctor to be a killer, it's no different than voting for prochoice candidates who also support legislation allowing doctors to be killers.
I must oppose euthansia or I'm in-part responsible for those doctors who pull the trigger.
What about those who CANNOT be healed? There are some illnesses, mostly cancers, that are beyond healing and the only thing that can be done is to prolong life (often only for a few weeks) for a person who is usually in tremendous pain.
If that person wants to be relieved of misery and is near death anyway, is it not heartless to let them suffer? Would it not be more humane to allow a loved one to die in peace?
Doctors are not infallible and diseases cannot also be cured.

reply from: galen

then why bother to adopt or speak about it at all... being a parent does change you in a major way... its something that lasts forever... not just 18 years and your done...
i do wonder about why you even play this game with yourself.

reply from: galen

if you are really invested in having a child it will change you.. if you adopt or not the whole experience will change you. pretending it won't is the game i'm speaking of. some times it seems you are invested to this and sometimes it does not.. that's all.

reply from: galen

hey i was NOT being a ***** to you.. i was discussing a situation....
sometimes your life makes me sad... sorry...excuse me for being human.

reply from: churchmouse

You know galen, I know you feel that no one here can touch your medical expertise but I have a few comments and questions for you about this topic.
As you have said you are pro-doctor assisted suicide for the terminally ill. I am not sure how and why you came to this stance or how you justify it, but I did reread your posts on this thread and they make me wonder about a few things.
I am not twisting what you said around. I quoted exactly what you said.
You say you are pro assisted suicide for the terminally ill. You seem to give pain as your main or ony reason, because you continuously ask everyone this question if they challenge you.
You insinuate that because we are against legalization of assistd suicide we want people to suffer. Is this fair? A lot of people are suffering from situations, diseases that are not terminal. I asked you about emotional pain......you didnt even address it.
What you are saying here is that pain only matters if you are terminally ill and you are an adult. Are there children that may be terminal and suffering? You want to deny them the right to die......just because they are not old? You said, ADULT here...... So lets be humane to adults and deny children that right?
Oh thats compassionate isnt it....
Obviousy you dont seem by your own statement to have any compassion for children and want them to suffer, like you say we want you to suffer.
You are right here, that no one not even clergy need tell you what is right or wrong. That is the beauty of Christianity. All you have to do is open the Bible to see how God feels. You can do that on your own.
Of course I give my interpretation.......arent you doing the same thing here? You are giving opinion as to why and how assisted suicide should be carried out. ARe there different rules for you here than for me? If you think I have interpreted something wrong......then challenge it. I have read the Bible more than several times. That does NOT make me an expert or a theological genius, but I do know what the Word says. Its not that complicated.
You say I am wrong. By saying this you imply that there is a right. So what is right. Show me scripturally that suicide, doctor assisted suicide would be condoned by God. Make your case. BUT use scriptures to back it up.
No where in the scriptures does it say not to take medicine for pain. But no where in the Bible does it say God would condone killing someone because they were sick.
Do you speak for God or know what His will is in everyones life? Is it IMPOSSIBLE that someone just might be healed by God? That their suffering might glorify God bring someone to Him?
You start killing people because they want to.......and you play God.
Find me any scripture in the Word that speaks of how God condones suicide and I'll rethink my position. However if you do a deductive bible study on how and why God values life.......I think you will see that God would NEVER condone suicide, or doctors killing patients for whatever the reason.
If they are Christian they should give the reins to God and pray that HIS WILL BE DONE. Its not about us, its about His will and HIS plan for our lives.
I believe God allows people to suffer. This website reallly does a good job explaining Gods view on suffering.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/suffer.html

If you hire a doctor to kill you, it is no different than a woman hiring an abortionist to kill her unborn. It might be different by the standards of our society.......but not to God. There is no difference.
The bible is the only book that can speak authoritatively to this issue. What does the Bible say?
Acts 17:25,28 - Life is a blessing from God. Death is caused by the power of the devil (Hebrews 2:14,15). A person who chooses to live is using a blessing from God. A person who kills himself is using the power of the Devil. [Psalm 64:1; Revelation 21:4; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Genesis 3:16,19; Job 1:18,19].
1 Corinthians 6:19,20 - Your body is a temple of God galen surely you know this if you are a Christian. It does not belong to you but to God to be used for His glory. This is the fundamental difference between those who justify suicide and those who do not.
Who owns your body Galen and what should it be used for? If you think you have ownership and God doesnt.......then go ahead and do whatever you want with it. If however you feel its Gods then you have no right to take your life, even if you are in pain. No one can serve God if they take their own life.
Romans 12:1,2 - Present your body as a living sacrifice to God. You serve God by living for Him. That is what your body is for. If you give it to Him, it is His to be used as He pleases, not yours to use as you please.
Suicide, assistd suicide is a failure to trust God to help us endure our problems.
You legalize this.......and anyone will be able to walk into a clinic and end their life, no questions ask.
Abortion is no solution...........Suicide isnt either.
Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

reply from: galen

Yes, well not all of us get the option of being born with normal chromosomes, a gender identity that fits their outward appearance or the ability to have children.
But hey, a number of people on here, such as Faithman and Churchmouse think it is acceptable to discriminate against people who are different.
How wonderful it must be to be 'normal' and crap on those who, by no fault of their own, are not 'normal'.
_______________________________________________________
when did I crap on you recently?
i think this conversation between us was going quite well... and don't compare me to ChrM or FM... you know better than that.

reply from: galen

ChM-
i am for the right of all adults who are terminally ill to end thier life for several reasons...
1) unless they are pregnant they are not hurting anyone else in the physical sense... will friend and family grieve? yes but they will no matter what, and possibly have less of a burden to carry if they do not have to watch a loved one end thier days in prolonged suffering.
2) An adult has a whole lifetime of experience and by thier 20's should be able to be thoughtful about thier own demise and make a rational descision based on thier wants and needs. this is what a living will is for. they can be specific. yes or no on many matters regarding thier healthcare and thier own descisions.
3) A terminally ill person ( one who is truely at thier last days or weeks) has the right not to prolong a death wich statistically does not include 9 holes on the fairway, rather it tends to be prolonged bedridden suffering at the home/ hospital, or hospice. This patient knows when thier goodbyes are said and knows when they are done with thier run.
All states have laws regarding how much and what type of pain controll one may recieve at the end, ethical restriction are wrong and are always called euthanasia laws. that is why my wording jumps around on this. When we restrict this type of pallitive care we end up with problems...just look at some of the recent cases in the news...
Now about children...
I have not met a child yet who when told they were dying did not handle it better than the adults... does that mean they are able to make this descision...probably better than the adults. However the law says you can not make those descisions under age 18 unless you are going to kill your unborn child... so go figure.
I also tend to belive that more hope should be held out for a child who has thier whole life ahead of them ( unlike me who has lived quite more than that). I hold in special consideration a child with Tay Sachs who will die an early and painful death...those children when suffering outweighs thier good days if thier parents wish to help them die should be allowed to do so.
I also think that anyone who would ask a child these questions about death and dying would be surprised about the answers they got ... especially about how frank they are.
Do i think anyone who has a quality of life be given this option no. Do i think anyone who is clinically depressed be given this option... no. do i think anyone with less than a terminal disease be given this option... no.
I think that my assertation that you want people to suffer IS fair.. because no one gets to suffer for anyone else... except Christ.. and you and I are not HIM.
Do i think God owns my body... only in the sense that He owns everything in creation... he also is going to let me you and everyone die... i really don't think he is concerned with a few days.
This issue is definately diffrent than the abortion issue...my doctors treat me for my disease and have been waging a pretty good effort against my death. Should they be asked to preform this service it would only be in the eventuality that this battle is lost.. well and truely lost. An abortionist has one mission in life and that is to kill a child. I find no correlation between the 2 except a medical degree.
I will not speak to you any longer on religion as i feel you have no right to tell me weather or not i am a bad christian and i am going to try and restrain myself from calling you a bad one also. besides your interpretaion and mine are quite diffrent and i am not here to argue theology with you.

reply from: galen

You said:
"What if your hope to have a baby as a woman has been flushed down a drain... or your hope to adopt. would that not affect you?"
Now you're saying:
"if you are really invested in having a child it will change you."
If the experience doesn't happen (as in your first quote) then how can it change me (as in the first quote).
I already want to have a daughter. If it I can't adopt for whatever reason, I am prepared for that eventuality. I'll be disappointed, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I've also already been in a long-term relationship where two children were involved, so I've already been a parent. I know what it is like.
I survived that. I can survive not adopting.
If I don't manage to adopt, nothing changes in my life, since I don't have a child.
Do you understand that?
What 'game' am I playing?
Do you mean to insult me for being a realist?
And BY THE *****ING WAY, my life has NOTHING to do with you.
_______________________________________________-
sure looked like it. * shrug**
and no i'm not insulting you for being a 'realist'.

reply from: galen

to let you know why i though you were....
soooorrryyyy... my fault.
lets put this one down now shall we?

reply from: churchmouse

I DID NOT TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE A BAD PERSON. DO YOU ALWAYS PLAY THE VICTIM?
I posted quotes that you said and one pertained to your Catholic religion.....
What.... I can"t comment on what you say? If you are sensitive about religion then why bring it up at all?
I simply pointed out scripture to make the point that we belong to God. There is no debate about this......the scriptures are clear.
I am sorta shocked you are afraid to comment on what I said. You usually stand up for what you believe. In this case......maybe the scriptures convict you and you can't face them at this time of your life. Maybe you know they go agaisnt the pro-position of assisted suicide. I really dont know. Obviously you have issues with it.
All I know is that pain is pain, and terminal illness is terminal illness......it makes no sense that if you say someone wants to die because of pain that...... that right would not also apply especially to a child. Your rationale makes no sense.
Yes and they might also feel better because the burden of caring for their elderly family member would be over, monitarily. Hospice can control pain for the most part. Most suicides are not done because of pain. I gave the study from Oregon. I think pain was 5th or 6th on the list.
What does experience have to do with pain? If someone is in pain, they are in pain. The fact you think that just because someone is older they deserve more pain control....is ridiculous, laughable. If a child is terminal.......there is no hope, right? I believe that is what you said, medically speaking. That you would deny a child the same rights as an adult.......what does that say about your stance.....on pain. That no parent would know what is best for their child........Teri Schivos husband certainly spoke on her behalf didnt he? And SHE WAS NOT EVEN TERMINAL.
So they can be terminal and now you say they have to end it within a certain window of time? LOL
The fact that they have been terminal for even a year and have suffered......doesnt matter? Hey if its that close to the end, whats waiting a few more weeks?
I should say so.......
And you would deny a terminally ill brain cancer patient even if it was a child.....the right to die?
We are talking about changing laws in our country. And like the Netherlands.....this could get out of control and before long.....children, handicapped, mentally ill, will also like the unborn child be on the chopping block.
Parents are guardians.......they will be able to make that decision for a child.
You talk about hope. So let me get this straight......adults dont need hope? Tell me medically speaking, what does terminal mean and is it different for children than adults?
I think your trying to find excuses why children should be excluded.
You have asked a few of us here.......what we would do outside your door with you screaming inside.
What would you do outside some childs room who was screaming?
You want to pick and choose based on YOUR VIEWS....if a person can kill themselves or hire it done.
You say, emotional pain.....nothing, pain of a terminally ill child nothing........only pain for a brain cancer patient is ok for someone to terminate?
This is NOT HAPPENING IN OREGON. Why dont you read about who is hiring killing done in that state, and the reasons why they are doing it. Then compare that to abortion and how that started out. ONLY FOR THE HARD CASES REMEMBER?
I do not want people to suffer. That is cruel for you to say. I do not think we should be able to dispose of vulnerable people sorry. I do not believe that God would ever condone doctor assisted suicide.
You want children and everyone that does not fit into your criteria for assisted suicide to suffer. You would tell me if I had a terminally ill child in pain......that I could not extend them the same rights just because they are a minor that you would have as an adult? Gee who is cruel here galen?
And you base this on what scripture, could you cite it?
Abortion ends the life of an unborn child before its time. Doctor assisted suicide does the same thing.
You say "you dont think"? What does scripture say?
Why dont you like to search the scriptures for answers.
Why do you run from them?

reply from: galen

nope i don't run from them but i am no longer goijg to get into a theological discussion on this... i don't respect you or your OPINION on the matter... you are being offically ignored at this time..
i explained myself and you twisted words again... and yeah... yu do like to cause suffering this prooves it.

reply from: joe

Give it up concernedparent,
4000 died today and your "lesser means" were not sufficient.
Stop defending the lives of the abortion doctors who kill innocent human beings. They need to be legally executed...

reply from: galen

I DID NOT TELL YOU THAT YOU WERE A BAD PERSON. DO YOU ALWAYS PLAY THE VICTIM?
not in so many words... what do you think arguing with someone about thier beliefs is supposed to imply acceptance?

reply from: churchmouse

Yes you do run and you know it. Your on another thread in somewhat of a religious discussion, what? its ok there not here. You just cant answer the questions I ask.
I make good points on the position you hold......
I'll say it again.....pain is pain, and terminal illness is terminal illness......it makes no sense that if you say someone wants to die because of pain that...... that right would not also apply especially to a child. Your rationale makes no sense.
You have no idea what is going on in Oregon concerning this very matter. You dont care what legalization of assisted suicide might do to society, that much is obvious.
You CLAIM you are a Christian yet give no scripture to back up your position.
You say you dissagree with my postiion yet you wont say why.
Go ahead and run galen.........
And I challenege anyone here to tell me if I have twisted her words around about this issue. I quote what she says.......and call her on it.

reply from: churchmouse

The reality of this issue is that physician assisted suicide constitutes unjustifiable killing of human beings.
This should never be looked at as socially acceptable.
On strictly religious grounds here physician assisted suicide is not and never should be an option for Christians because it violates the 6th commandment, thou shalt not kill. this not only means homicides but suicides as well. If you read the Old Testament it is clear that killing a human being is only justified by direct divine command. No where in the entire bible does it sanction private arrangements between people to kill each other.
You can talk about being humane, compassionate call it a loving act etc etc.....any rationale you want for assisted suicide, the reality will always be that it constitutes unjustifiable killing of humans.
If you look at Oregon we see a failed system already. The safeguards are gone. Doctors dont need to keep records so they have have no idea how many are even doing this. Like abortion it will end up being operated outside the medical mainstream. Doctors are looked down upon for doing abortion and in time they will be looked down on if they assist to kill people. We have abortion mills......we will soon have suicide mills. Sit in line and just wait your turn.
This issue is not just to improve care at the end of someones life. This is all about ending life because its a burdon. (Pain is not the reason people want to end their lives)
Christianity must be the face of caring and compassion for the ill, the depressed. Christ can heal, He can offer a place of refuge and shelter when pain and misery show up on anyones door.
We need to focus on how to help people that are suffering.......not kill them.
For the Christian this issue is not just about biology..... Its more than that. It's a moral and theological matter as well. We all die and yes its part of the human condition. Read Hebrew 9:27. Death is way more than what the medical community defines it as. According to 2 Cor 5:1-10 and 1 Cor 15....death is not annihilation but separation. Its more than just a biological act.
How a person chooses to die, how they view death and what lies beyond says a lot about their faith and hope in God.
If this is legalized any doctor will be able to just write a lethal death prescription...and medicalized killings will be expanded. it will invite corruption just like abortion did. It will guarentee that medicalized killing will ultimately include everyone that simply requests aid to die.
The vulnerable will be at risk. We cant let that happen.

reply from: galen

your form of christianity is biased and heretical according to my form... that is why i won't discuss it with you.
also i dislike people who are bigots.

reply from: churchmouse

galen...come up with any excuse that you want to.
I would ask why you feel this way.......but obviously you dont know or you would reply. You tell me I am wrong......but you cant say why based on scriptures.
You say your a Christian but you cant site scripture to back up any of your worldview or to prove me wrong. You run.
You go ahead and call me any name/names you want....I wont stoop to going that route.
You wont discuss it because you dont know that much about it.
That much is obvious.

also i dislike people who are bigots.

reply from: galen

obvioulsy you can't read so what's the point.
you obviously think you know everything so tell me ... why are you still here and not with God?
concentrate on yourself... you have more problems there than you could ever hope to solve.

reply from: churchmouse

It is obvious that you do NOT want to address this issue, especially from a Christian prospective. I think many of the questions I asked you simply cant face, like the ones about terminal children in pain.
You are pro-doctors assisted suicide and I take it if it came to a vote in your state you would vote yes.
That opens to door to a lot of negatives, negatives that are already happening in Oregon. Maybe one day you will step out of the box and research what really is going on and how your stance goes against what God believes and tells us in scripture.
God gives life, He will take it. Obviously you dissagree.

reply from: galen

i have posted my stance to your questions, i have disagreed with you nicely and then not so nicely... you just don't get the hint do you.
personally i think you are as mean spirited as lolita...
go work on yourself.

reply from: Faramir

I'm in 100% agreement with you on this one. Christians have no business supporting physician assisted suicide, and should fight it as they would fight the injustice of abortion.

reply from: galen

Faramir i know YOU at least mean what you say.. but ChM is so mean spirited in her posting.. i truely think she uses her faith as her own form of clique to lord over anyone else.
i respectfully disagree with you on this though.

reply from: churchmouse

galen you can say whatever you want. I have not been mean to people. I just dont cave in on scripture and I am outspoken about it.
You have NOT ANSWERED questions. It is you that (like you have admitted) that have not replied nicely, not me. In fact you have been outright meanspirited. You want to run me out of here obviously. It wont work so stop trying.
People usually dont like the scripture that convicts them.......I know at one time I didnt either.
I know you are because you know very well what God says through the scriptures. I am sure you live by them as well. Any Christian that says they are for assisted suicide, abortion.......does not know them. They pick and choose what they want to believe. They try to justify sin in order to fit it into their lifestyle. They think its all about them.......when its all about God and His plan for our lives.
Galen you like to fight dont you? Obviously its the only way you operate. If people agree with you your ok, if not......you go after them tooth and nail.
Faramir says the same thing I do and gets a pass. He even agreed with me about vexing.....but free pass as well.
I have not been mean to you, I called you out on scripture and you didn't like it. It is obvious you do NOT like to be challeneged in the least. I have one thing to say about that.......to bad. You claimed your a Christian, so you will get scriptures. Scripture itself is the ultimate standard of truth, it cant be erroneous.
I would encourag you to get your Bible out........read the scriptures, do a systematic theology about this issue, about what it says about taking life into your own hands by helping someone die. Maybe then you will see that assisted suicide is a grave sin, just like abortion is.
You know there are minor and major doctrines in the Bible. the minor ones are not necessarily important for all believers to agree on, but the major ones are crucial. They are the ones that have major impacts on our thinking about other doctrines and how we live the Christian life. What I mean here is that it is of great importance that we agree as Christians on such things as the Trinity, the diety of Christ, justification by faith, the value of all life. People that disagree with the historical understanding of any of these will have have wide differences with Christians who affirm them. When Christians disagree on these, they live different lifestyles and their woldviews radically are different. That is what is happening here with our worldviews.
What we should always keep in mind is that it is SCRIPTURE ALONE, not any human authority, that MUST function as the authority for the definition for what we believe.
God gives life.........."Love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days."
http://www.seekgod.org/bible/godgiveslife.html

He is the length of our days. He determines when He will take us.
What is sad is that you wont say why. And you wont base it on scriptures that back it your stance.
Bottom line....you cant make a scriptural case for doctor assisted suicide and you know it. But you dont care because its all about you, and not what God says.

reply from: galen

i like to fight with people i believe are wrong... and i guess you don't read too well.. vexing and faramir are on the same page and LCR has changed her mind so we are into a new prolife stance here today... none of wich involves lording over people and browbashing them.
go spout your inscincere drival somewhere else. If i actually belived you cared i might listen but its patently obvious you do not.
amen

reply from: churchmouse

And you called me a bigot, a Christian in name only? Not your brand of Christianity......?
WHAT IS THIS BRAND GALEN?
Galen said,

reply from: galen

look if i wanted to be a fundie i would... i am not .
you can 'comment' all you want.. it just shows how pathetic you are.
i'm goth my dear.. and if you can't handle my discriptive perspective on you.. don't read it.
i don't need to provide you with examples of your bigotry... you do so on your own.
Yes i am intollerant of you.. your hatred , your insensitivity, and your twisted belief system .. the only thing about it that is christian is the name you use... you are definately NOT Christlike.
AND YOU ARE AFRAID TO ANSWER VEXINGS POSTS>>>>

reply from: galen

And you called me a bigot, a Christian in name only? Not your brand of Christianity......?
WHAT IS THIS BRAND GALEN?
__________________________________________________________________
what the only christian is one who acts the way YOU do... what a joke.
I would rather be skewered to Dr tiller's innards than be like you.

reply from: galen

who died and made you God Chm?

reply from: galen

just so we are straight on what was really said...

reply from: galen

another thing i stand buy.

reply from: galen

another WHOLE quote from me.

reply from: churchmouse

I do answer his posts.......HE DOESNT ANSWER MINE. LET ME TELL YOU THIS AGAIN. I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE THAT TALKS THE WAY HE DOES. He has a violent nature. The rusty pipe did it. I TOLD HIM THAT OVER AND OVER. Funny you think I am so cruel...........and you say nothing to him about his rusty comments towards me. You think that is acceptable talk? You do the same thing.
And funny galen....you are so upset and point out that i dont answer.....vexings posts......when you run from MINE. ha ha you think you answered them but you didnt and you made excuses why you wont address them.
You ran from my questions about doctor assisted suicide, your Christian views....
Hey if I wanted to run, I wouldnt be posting here today.
I DO NOT NEED A MEDICAL DEGREE TO HAVE AN OPINION. HOW MANY DOCTORS DO WE HAVE HERE? SO IF WE ALL NEEDED A DR. NEXT TO OUR NAME.....HOW MANY WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE? You would wouldnt you? Are you a physician? So you have a degree, I do too.
You post a position and then you do not want to be challenged on what you say. You run or find excuses.
I asked or wondered how you align your faith in God in Christ with your assisted suicide postiion. You cant answer so you ran. I asked you and I believe others have as well.......where in the scriptures does God seem to condone anyone taking their own life, let alone someone killing just because someone is in pain?
I asked you if pain was the issue......why a child that was also terminal could choose the same thing. You gave a totally lame answer one that made no sense at all. But you again came up with excuses why you wont answer.
Its ok if an elderly person is in pain dying right......but to you a child in the same condition doesnt mean squat. You said so in so many words.
You dont stand on life. Your pro-life with IF'S, just like the pro-choice person that says, they think abortion should be legal, but they are personally opposed to it.
Thats not a pro-life position and its no position that God would think was right.
Being a Christian means believing in the Word. Where in the Bible does God condone suicide......or others helping someone do it? If you are a Christian........find the scripture that backs up your position.

reply from: yoda

I agree.
I debate abortion from a "secular" viewpoint, but I do agree that the "I'm against abortion but I won't tell someone else what to do" position is totally dishonest. Being prolife means you're against the legal status of abortion, period.
And all that position really says is that you want to protect your own kids, but don't care how many other kids are killed. It's pathetic.

reply from: galen

except she is speaking in my right to take my own life in the even i am terminal and dying in excrutiating pain..not abortion.
this is the same woman who equates ectopic pregnacy removal and abortion as the same thing..
And she still won't answer Vexing..

reply from: galen

I do answer his posts.......HE DOESNT ANSWER MINE. LET ME TELL YOU THIS AGAIN. I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE THAT TALKS THE WAY HE DOES. He has a violent nature. The rusty pipe did it. I TOLD HIM THAT OVER AND OVER. Funny you think I am so cruel...........and you say nothing to him about his rusty comments towards me. You think that is acceptable talk? You do the same thing.
And funny galen....you are so upset and point out that i dont answer.....vexings posts......when you run from MINE. ha ha you think you answered them but you didnt and you made excuses why you wont address them.
You ran from my questions about doctor assisted suicide, your Christian views....
Hey if I wanted to run, I wouldnt be posting here today.
I DO NOT NEED A MEDICAL DEGREE TO HAVE AN OPINION. HOW MANY DOCTORS DO WE HAVE HERE? SO IF WE ALL NEEDED A DR. NEXT TO OUR NAME.....HOW MANY WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE? You would wouldnt you? Are you a physician? So you have a degree, I do too.
You post a position and then you do not want to be challenged on what you say. You run or find excuses.
I asked or wondered how you align your faith in God in Christ with your assisted suicide postiion. You cant answer so you ran. I asked you and I believe others have as well.......where in the scriptures does God seem to condone anyone taking their own life, let alone someone killing just because someone is in pain?
I asked you if pain was the issue......why a child that was also terminal could choose the same thing. You gave a totally lame answer one that made no sense at all. But you again came up with excuses why you wont answer.
Its ok if an elderly person is in pain dying right......but to you a child in the same condition doesnt mean squat. You said so in so many words.
You dont stand on life. Your pro-life with IF'S, just like the pro-choice person that says, they think abortion should be legal, but they are personally opposed to it.
Thats not a pro-life position and its no position that God would think was right.
Being a Christian means believing in the Word. Where in the Bible does God condone suicide......or others helping someone do it? If you are a Christian........find the scripture that backs up your position.
__________________________________________________________
who died and made you God Chm?

reply from: churchmouse

You CLAIM to be a Christian galen.
I questioned you on how you can be pro-doctors assisted suicide and try to make it fit with scriptures. You could not do that. You gave some lame excuse that you dont talk religion.
You do with on other threads and with other people however.........
You dont get what it means to make decisions based on the Bible. You want to throw your opinion in......that is not scriptural. Nothing can be changed or altered. Gods Word is perfect and it stands.
I gave you my position on assisted suicide and asked you scripturally how you base your decision and what scriptures back up your position. You wont do it.
And I know why.......you can't. Just like no one can make a case for abortion and God condoning that. So you make this issue about what galen thinks, not what God says. You dont want to hear that. Now if you were not claiming to be a Christan........then fine, no problem, but that is not the case.
I also pointed out the fact that you think its alright if an adult in pain is put down......but you think a child should suffer. Thats humane alright galen.
I gave you websites, information about Oregon.......it does not matter to you. You have already claimed that you are THE medical experct on the panel, and no one can question you. You certainly use your situation to your advantage dont you?
I did not in any way shape or form say the intentions were the same thing......you mary are a liar.
In one the mothers life is in danger.
In one its just killing on demand for whatever reason.
I did say however mary that the same thing happens in both. A life is taken.
Medically that is the truth. The embryo has to be taken in each case for the surgeries to be succcessful. Taken=killed=disposed of=terminated.....however you want to spin it.....its the same thing if when the doctor does the surgery, they are both alive.
What dont you get?
I''ll say this again........doctor assisted suicide does not align itself with Gods Word. If it does..........please do show us where?
I am curious as to what other Christian here thinks doctors assisted suicide is ok.

reply from: nancyu

Has anyone heard of CC Little? I am at a Bookland right now, and I just picked up a book Called "The Secret History of the War on Cancer" by Debra Davis. I found his name in the pages and learned he was a member of the American Birth Control League, heavily in favor of eugenics, birth control and euthanasia.
Also he is affilliated with the National Cancer Institute and the American Cancer Society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._C._Little

reply from: galen

just a note to Chm...
In a national survey of 2,000 practicing US physicians (all members of the American Medical Association), researchers found:
Terminal Sedation:
82% Had "no objection" to terminal sedation
9% Had both a "religious and nonreligious objection" to terminal sedation
7% Had a "nonreligious objection" to terminal sedation
2% Had a "religious objection" to terminal sedation
quote from
(American Journal of Hospice and Pallative Medicine, Apr./May 2008)

reply from: galen

In a survey of 3,299 oncologists (all members of the American Society of Clinical Oncology), researchers found:
Support
22.5% supported the use of physician-assisted suicide for a "terminally ill patient with unremitting pain"
6.5% supported the use of euthanasia for a "terminally ill patient with unremitting pain"
Willingness
15.6% were "personally willing to provide physician-assisted suicide for a patient in excruciating pain"
2% were "personally willing to provide euthanasia for a patient in excruciating pain"
Patient Requests
56.2% "had requests" for physician-assisted suicide during their career
38.2% "had requests" for euthanasia during their career
Clinical Practice
10.8% "had performed physician-assisted suicide" during their career
3.7% "had performed euthanasia" during their career
(Annals of Internal Medicine, Oct. 2000)

reply from: Agape

I have suffered horrible, horrible pain that no drugs could touch. Only enough morphine to knock me out did the trick. After dealing with that I support people's choices about ending their own pain, and if they have a doctor empathetic enough to help them and their family is involved and they are cognizant enough to make the decision more power to them.

reply from: galen

i suffer from a brain tumour... my pain is such that narcotics do not help it... i am forced to rely on several diffrent types of anti seizure drugs for its controll...when my tolerance reaches the point that they no longer work, i have to switch to another drug in the same class, all i can do is hope i run out of tumour before i run out of drugs.
Chm says there is no way God... or Christ would want my doctor to help me with pain controll if it is the purpose of that controll to help me die... i say she is wrong.
in fact a lot of the medical community says she is wrong... she also accuses me of having killed my patients... or wanting too... she is one crazy bee...
so she yells that i can't back myself up in the bible...
i find it sad and pathetic that on the threads where i do.. she won't respond...

reply from: Agape

I am sorry you are dealing with that.
Those who do not have to can afford to disagree with you.

reply from: galen

I hope one day light will shine on a certain marble head... i just hope its not in the middle of her own tragedy. I would hate for anyone to deal with this while someone else is looking over thier shoulder saying that they HAD to suffer just because someone else made the rules...
b ut i digress... its all in the previous posts on the subject...

reply from: galen

__________________________________________________
still no spiritual words of wisdom Chm?

reply from: BossMomma

I agree, why is it perfectly ethical to humanely euthanize a beloved family pet but it's fine to let your loved one die a painful death from some end stage condition (AIDS, Cancer etc.) Death is over stigmatized and sometimes it's the most merciful option. That's why I support quality of life over quantity.

reply from: BossMomma

Now, now, if I played in the street I might get hit by a car. How pro-life of you.
You can play dodge the car....too bad the baby in the womb can't play dodge the abortionist.
You do realize I'm pregnant right? It's funny how you're only pro-life with unwanted fetuses.
I noticed that when some prick advised me to kill my unborn baby. They can't make up their minds. First it's "Abortion is murder!" then it's " Go kill your baby!"

reply from: BossMomma

And he has the fetish? LOL
What do you mean by that?
Are you trying to say that transsexualism is a fetish?
Because if you are, you are wrong. There is nothing sexual about my situation.
Your ignorance continues to astound me on new and unforeseen levels.
Now this subject has always been a curiousity for me, I have a friend who was born female and went through procedures to become male. He says that his mind didn't feel right in a female body. Is that the case in most transgender individuals?

reply from: LiberalChiRo

Yes, that is the case in all transgendered individuals. They are mentally the opposite gender of their body. Even hormonally their brain tends to operate as the opposite gender. Males may be effeminate, females masculine. They often reject traditional gender roles as children and young adults. There is nothing wrong with being transgendered; it does not harm the body or harm others. It does not impair the person's ability to perform in life. What it does do is cause marked emotional distress at feeling trapped in the wrong body. Although surgery doesn't make things perfect, and these people always know what they are genetically, they often gain a lot of confidence and personal peace from the procedure. They feel more at home in their own bodies.

reply from: yoda

The part I quoted specifically mentioned abortion..... however, I do have a suggestion..... how about you and her taking this private, or starting your own thread to continue this blood feud?

reply from: galen

why?
its so much morre fun out in the open...
i post about abortion too... its not like i'm the one with a hang up here.

reply from: galen

so churchmouse... gonna run from this one too?...you accuse others of hiding but you are just too scared to ague with something other than the bible... and when people actually argue with scripture at your request you ignore them...

reply from: BossMomma

That's very interesting, I'm a tom boy and have mostly male friends. I don't really get along with most females but I've always been comfortable being female. Thanks for the input, I watch a show on the Discovery channel called Taboo and it did a show on transgender individuals and even cultures from Africa to Asia in which it is even profitable to be transgender.

reply from: LiberalChiRo

That's very interesting, I'm a tom boy and have mostly male friends. I don't really get along with most females but I've always been comfortable being female. Thanks for the input, I watch a show on the Discovery channel called Taboo and it did a show on transgender individuals and even cultures from Africa to Asia in which it is even profitable to be transgender.
Yes, I've seen the show. They face a lot of discrimination over there too though. I think one of the saddest things I saw on the news recently was about homosexual men in Iraq and Afghanistan being killed for simply being in love... They are so brave to be themselves despite the horrid crimes committed against them. But it reaches a point where you just can't hide anymore. The entire GLBT community is going through tough times right now. They're finally gaining rights, and those who still don't have any are beginning to ask "why"?

reply from: galen

yep and now our country who used to grant asylum to men like this ( apparently lesbians are not killed ) wants to no longer do so.


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