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Agression

question for those who advocate this tactic.

by: galen

I would like to know of 1 example where an act of agression against an abortionist or clinic or clinic worker resulted in an abortion not being carried out.
Not as a delay, but as a case where a woman was so moved or scared by the agression that she decided to have the baby instead....

reply from: sheri

If it was proven that babies were saved by say, paul hill, would that mean that his act was a justifiable one.

reply from: galen

i agree , interesting that no one can find a case.

reply from: yoda

How could anyone posting here be expected to be able to document what happened to any of the babies whose abortion was "delayed" by the killing of an abortionist?
Do you really think that we have that kind of information?

reply from: carolemarie

Even if there was such a case, it wouldn't make Paul Hill right.
The ends do not justify the means. God cares very much about the ends we use!

reply from: sheri

I have it on very good authority that paul hill had the pictures of 4 babies that were supposed to be aborted that day. The question is are the murders he commited justifiable?

reply from: nancyu

If he saved 4 babies, I'm sure he would say it was worth paying the ultimate price as he did.

reply from: faithman

SHEESH !!!! For the thousanded time, yes it is justifiable to stop evil aggression with lethal force. 2000 years of christian history, every country on the planet, and just plain common sence say so. Are all you so called passifist going to start picketing every police station? Are you going to advocate a change in the law so that no one can defend life from aggressors? Are we going to continue to allow ourselves to be dooped by baby killing phonies like CM into believing that all justice for the womb child is evil? I guess God could care less that she killed 3 because she prayed her little Jesus prayer, so she gets to skate along free, and pervert His word and call it ministry. All 50 states have laws that say it is justifiable to defend ones self, and any innocent person from those who intend to do harm. If a womb child is equal in humanity, then they deserve the same consideration. If you do not agree with that, then you agree with planned parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen, and deserves no consideration at all. CM has consistantly stated that, and has point blank said she would fight personhood if it made a womb child equal in consideration to a woman who would kill them. That is not the voice of a repentant sinner, but an arrogant murderer who wants to use the name of Christ to excuse her crime against the womb child.

reply from: galen

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i would think that if this were tue... that he saved 4 kids, then those women would be shouting it at the top of thier lungs... or that at the very least they would have published them w/ his manifesto. As we have not heard of this before now i find them suspect.

reply from: galen

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i'm wondering if i missed anything on my internet searches...
prolife groups often point out and use the stories of the 'ones that got away' or the 'ones that survived'... why not use a story of one woman who changed her mind... if PH type tactics work?

reply from: faithman

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i'm wondering if i missed anything on my internet searches...
prolife groups often point out and use the stories of the 'ones that got away' or the 'ones that survived'... why not use a story of one woman who changed her mind... if PH type tactics work?
Because they don't want that dirty little secret to get out. Phony pro-life fights against equal justice just as hard as PP does. And baby killers like CM subvert "pro-life" to make sure that future killers get a free walk.

reply from: galen

you really need to proove this stuff FM or i am going to think you've been watching too many X-files reruns...

reply from: joe

You are "talking" to much. Prove it.

reply from: galen

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i would think that if this were tue... that he saved 4 kids, then those women would be shouting it at the top of thier lungs... or that at the very least they would have published them w/ his manifesto. As we have not heard of this before now i find them suspect.
Obviously, no woman will be affected by terrorist tactics in the way the abortionists themselves might. The mother is the one who holds the power of life and death over the child, and she knows nobody is going to kill her to save her child, since that obviously would not work. Killing abortionists will not deter a woman who is determined to abort. It might make it more difficult to find a "provider," but only slightly, since any violent attack is immediately answered with increased security.
Nobody can say that any mother who was prevented from aborting (we do have reason to believe one mother who was scheduled to abort that say never did) by Hill's actions could not have been convinced to reconsider even if Hill had not killed that day. When sidewalk counselors manage to turn a mother away, they can not be sure she does not reschedule and abort another day either. The one thing we can be sure of is that public opinion is negatively affected by this kind of publicity, and that hurts our cause. We can also be relatively certain that anti-abortion violence has resulted in legislation that makes legitimate efforts of sidewalk counselors who are on the streets trying to save children on a day to day basis, one child at a time, much more difficult.
Whether you think abortion will be stopped only by violent activism, or that peaceful protests and educating the public represents our best chance for success, there can be no denying that we need support. The more people we get on our side, the better our chances of success, and this is true regardless of what methods you think will win in the end. Anyone who agrees with this logical conclusion must therefore agree that public opinion and the "image" we present is key to eventual success. Logically, the question becomes, "does violence win people to our side?"
Since most people who advocate and/or condone anti-abortion violence obviously only give lip service to their convictions, even if they believe violence can win the day, some very important questions arise. First, will their public support of violence actually convince people to act on those convictions? If not, what is the point? It doesn't really matter if violence is justifiable or has a chance to achieve the desired end if nobody (or only a few) are actually willing to take such extreme actions. If those who so passionately support such actions are not willing, then who? Yes, "hired thugs" like Clayton Waggner can be recruited from prison cells to terrorize the abortion industry, but are these the kind of representatives that will give our cause an appearance of "nobility?" Will this bring others to our side? Will it encourage sympathy for our cause, or help strengthen the resolve of those who oppose us?
In the end, I believe we will win because we are right, and because most people are basically "good" and reasonable. I keep hearing how "our methods" have failed for 35 years, but the truth is that all our combined efforts have thus far not been enough. There have certainly been attempts to use violence and terrorism to advance our cause, but these efforts have proven to have been as ineffective as more peaceful means. Yes, I understand that some will argue that there have simply not been enough efforts of that kind, but I would counter that perhaps there have not been sufficient legitimate efforts for those to bring this issue to a close...
It should be obvious that it will be more difficult to garner support for violent overthrow of our government than it would be to simply convince others to support legitimate efforts to effect change. Obviously, people must first oppose abortion on demand before they can be convinced to support such drastic measures, right? So, if convincing people to oppose abortion will obviously make it possible to effect change by legitimate means, and this is a necessary precursor to convincing them to support (and actually commit to action, since support alone is pointless without having people willing to "put their money where their mouths are"), it would seem the whole argument for violence is moot.
In closing, I would like to encourage our most vocal supporters and those who publicly condone anti-abortion violence to carefully consider whether doing so actually accomplishes anything positive. What is the point? If you have no intention of acting on your convictions, what is gained by publicly condoning violence? Do you hope you will encourage others to commit acts of violence? Are you just trying to scare people who work in the abortion industry (terrorism)? Do you think those who will not see things our way can simply be terrorized into acquiescence?
The bottom line here is that abortion is unlike any other form of oppression against any other class of human being in our history, since the victims are actually inside the bodies of the "true aggressors." The abortionist is simply the tool by which most carry out this aggression, and eliminating the "tool" Does not deter the aggressor in any way. We have seen the availability of these "tools" decrease to some extent, but have not really done anything to decrease the demand for abortions. As long as women want to abort, they will continue to do so. I honestly believe that legal prohibition will not only eliminate the availability of the "tools" of choice, but perhaps more importantly, will send a clear message that abortion is a barbaric practice that our society will no longer tolerate.
I say "perhaps more importantly" because I understand that ultimately, we have to address the reasons women "choose" abortion, as well as the rationalizations they use to justify that "choice." If we do not, we will no doubt see that, even if one "tool" is no longer available, new tools will be sought. Technology will continue to address the demands of humanity as long as those demands exist, and I do not believe for one minute that abortion could be ended simply be eliminating all the abortionists and/or clinics. If you do not agree, consider the MAP. I firmly believe that science will discover other means of meeting the demand for abortion if one means is eliminated. And yes, I understand that militants might then attempt to eliminate each new "tool," but what we would have then is a tech war like we have in the case of internet security. Move, counter, etc, ad infinitum...
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well thought out and expressed CP

reply from: joe

Actually sounds like a bunch of made up liberal crap with no real proof or logic involved.

reply from: galen

did you not get thre critical thinking course in high school?

reply from: joe

Regardless of how many more lives might be lost as a result of such actions?
How do you come up with such a question? Do you have information that leads you to believe that abortion will be stopped? How many more must die before this happens?
Your loaded question leads to no logical conclusion.

reply from: joe

There is no critical thinking in that post. Just a one-sided opinion.

reply from: joe

If that is the case, then do you concede that Paul Hill might not have hurt our cause?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Well, the thing is, is that one incident will not do it. A few incidents will not do it. A movement, will.
I think your question really is: How many hearts and minds did he change?

reply from: carolemarie

Listen, you little bully! I never said that pre-born babies were second class citizens! My reasons for opposing the personhood bill without exceptionsare because we can't pass it unless you have provisions to allow birth control and to not jail women. I believe that without those exceptions the bill will die. I don't waste my time on legislation that I don't think can pass. If this ever comes up in my state, I will lobby to have the exceptions added, so it can pass. Is that clear enough for you?
And for the 100th time, I regret my abortions, I do everything in my power to help women NOT make that choice. I just refuse to hate them if they don't listen. I refuse to not love the clinic worker and the abortion provider. I refuse to deny God and do what is wrong to suit your warped POV.
I stand here today because of the grace and mercy and kindness of God and I fully intend to show that same love to anyone who crosses my path!
You however test that resolve to the max.....but I am working really really hard to be charitable to you....

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Speaking of wasting people's time...
I owe you an apology for blatantly trolling you and wasting your time.
You're the only one here that has a reason for wanting abortion abolished that is based on solid logic; rather than blind adherence to organised religion.
That's a view I can almost agree with.
Why do you have to go there? That is bull*****, man.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Originally posted by: concernedparent
You are correct. One man with no support hurt our cause.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

For starters, it's WOman.
And go where?
I owed him an apology. What's wrong with pointing that out?
Your attack on the religious.

reply from: joe

We need real support. We have roughly 50% public support already. Why is nothing changing?
Because when you condemn violence you reinforce the belief that the unborn are not quite as valuable as the born. It is a confusing message to the masses that this is a issue but it is not important. To go out and vote for more important issues since this is not truly murder.
What is it that blinds you to this fact? You fear to speak it, concernedparent...you fear the truth.
The unborn are worthy of life, let our words testify to the world that it is indeed a fact.

reply from: joe

Give me a break, now you are going to blame FOCA on Faithman.
They need no reason to restrict us...they will do it anyway.

reply from: joe

When you convert and advocate Personhood for the unborn, then I will believe you.

reply from: joe

....and the price of insurance skyrockets. (you forgot to mention this part).

reply from: leftistdestroyer

What attack?
I'm not religious, so I find his arguments far more compelling than 'God said so'.
What's wrong with pointing that out?
"You're the only one here that has a reason for wanting abortion abolished that is based on solid logic; rather than blind adherence to organised religion."
Logic and ideas have been tossed all around here by everyone. You went after someone because they are religious. Nobody here has listed "God said so" as the one and only reason. Don't bull***** me. If you want to retract the above quote, then fine, but don't bull***** me.

reply from: faithman

Listen, you little bully! I never said that pre-born babies were second class citizens! My reasons for opposing the personhood bill without exceptionsare because we can't pass it unless you have provisions to allow birth control and to not jail women. I believe that without those exceptions the bill will die. I don't waste my time on legislation that I don't think can pass. If this ever comes up in my state, I will lobby to have the exceptions added, so it can pass. Is that clear enough for you?
And for the 100th time, I regret my abortions, I do everything in my power to help women NOT make that choice. I just refuse to hate them if they don't listen. I refuse to not love the clinic worker and the abortion provider. I refuse to deny God and do what is wrong to suit your warped POV.
I stand here today because of the grace and mercy and kindness of God and I fully intend to show that same love to anyone who crosses my path!
You however test that resolve to the max.....but I am working really really hard to be charitable to you....
Listen you little baby killer, I have never asked for, nor do I want your kind of charity. You are the one who killed 3 who couldn't fight back. That makes you the consumate bully here. Your "exceptions" most assuredly makes the womb child second class, and you most assuredly stated that the womb child is not on the same level as a born child. Killers should be punished, other wise any law is usless. You should be in prison for killing three, but you are luck enough to live in a land that condoned your crime. It is never wrong to defend an innocent person from an evil aggressor like you. Murder is still in your heart, which is obvious by the way you totally ignore the innocent so you can run your little co-dependant "ministry" to make yourself out to be a hero. Everything you post here exposes your selfishness, and your totally lack of true concern for the preborn. You constantly put the womb child at the end of the line behind your fellow killer moms.

reply from: joe

My point exactly. Your endorsement was useless.

reply from: joe

You forgot to love the unborn.

reply from: joe

Give me a break, now you are going to blame FOCA on Faithman.
They need no reason to restrict us...they will do it anyway.
Keep running concernedparent.............

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Of course not. That is why I said one incident wont change anything. A few won't. But many, it is a movement.
Of course the gov will intercede. But that is no reason to quit. All revolutions go up against the current system(s). The questions is: Who want's it more.
Just like the 60/70's revolutions, sheer numbers and ideology influenced political and sociological change. Loud outrage and anger infulenced political and sociological change. Massive protests influenced change. We have a protest, if you can call i that, once a year in DC. Only it is missing loudness, anger, and outrage. Nobody pay's attention to us.
The squeeky wheel does get the oil, but we feel that we are above that kind of behavior. We have to show class and polite disagreement. THAT is why we lose.
Again, I am not calling for violence, just a little pissed off backbone. That's all.

reply from: faithman

Somewhere out there, one person might care what you think.
Somewhere.
That is one more than you have. Don't you have a pecker to cut off or something?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Originally posted by: Vexing
"Organised religion is not based on logic.
Fact.
Do you ever question your faith? If you don't, then it is inded blind adherence.
If you want to spiral off into another tangent about religion, be my guest.
However, this is supposed to be an abortion forum."

reply from: leftistdestroyer

concernedparent,
Just checking to see if you saw my reply to you a few posts back.

reply from: joe

Really??? Wow!!! Who are you going to blame FOCA on? Are you following?

reply from: faithman

Oh, I have a number of people who agree with me.
You know that.
No, I can't have Sexual Reassignment Surgery for another 15 months.
They don't really cut it off either, they re-use a lot of it to make the inner labia, vagina and clitoris. Certainly, they discard quite a bit of the meatus, but they re-use all they can.
Hope that was educational.
As far as sick perversion is concerned, ignorance ain't so bad.

reply from: joe

Somewhere out there, one person might care what you think.
Somewhere.
That is one more than you have. Don't you have a pecker to cut off or something?

reply from: galen

....and the price of insurance skyrockets. (you forgot to mention this part).
_______________________________________
malpractice insurance is already skyrocketing for these docs... the reason behinde the cost for this is NOT attacks on clinics..( they have nothing to do with malp. insurance) it is that the only doctors who preform abortions on a regular basis already have a string of malpractice suits and other misconduct against them.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

No offense, but that's all? We're not gunna have debate?

reply from: joe

Really??? Wow!!! Who are you going to blame FOCA on? Are you following?
(concernedparent chasing his own tail)

reply from: faithman

....and the price of insurance skyrockets. (you forgot to mention this part).
_______________________________________
malpractice insurance is already skyrocketing for these docs... the reason behinde the cost for this is NOT attacks on clinics..( they have nothing to do with malp. insurance) it is that the only doctors who preform abortions on a regular basis already have a string of malpractice suits and other misconduct against them.
There are more forms of insurance than malpractice. We are talking property, and liability. Both go you when the clinics burn down. The law requires these forms of insurance along with malpractice.

reply from: joe

....and the price of insurance skyrockets. (you forgot to mention this part).
_______________________________________
malpractice insurance is already skyrocketing for these docs... the reason behinde the cost for this is NOT attacks on clinics..( they have nothing to do with malp. insurance) it is that the only doctors who preform abortions on a regular basis already have a string of malpractice suits and other misconduct against them.
Good. Now we can add skyrocketing liability insurance.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Just as I said; you have no intention of 'sticking to the topic'.
If you did, you'd drop this, as it is apparently irrelevant.
My private messaging has been turned off for months, and it will stay that way.
Trying to convert people IS attacking their beliefs! It's telling them that their belief system is wrong and that yours is the only valid one.
I respect religions that don't force themselves on others.
Yours is not one of them.
You are just a lying cunt. ***** you.

reply from: faithman

Just as I said; you have no intention of 'sticking to the topic'.
If you did, you'd drop this, as it is apparently irrelevant.
My private messaging has been turned off for months, and it will stay that way.
Trying to convert people IS attacking their beliefs! It's telling them that their belief system is wrong and that yours is the only valid one.
I respect religions that don't force themselves on others.
Yours is not one of them.
We don't force them one anyone despite the fact they are superior.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Are there any serious discussion on this site?

reply from: galen

....and the price of insurance skyrockets. (you forgot to mention this part).
_______________________________________
malpractice insurance is already skyrocketing for these docs... the reason behinde the cost for this is NOT attacks on clinics..( they have nothing to do with malp. insurance) it is that the only doctors who preform abortions on a regular basis already have a string of malpractice suits and other misconduct against them.
There are more forms of insurance than malpractice. We are talking property, and liability. Both go you when the clinics burn down. The law requires these forms of insurance along with malpractice.[/q
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there are ways around the builing insurance premiums... diffrent owners etc... and those costs do not always go up... move ship, new name for buisness and guess what... no one knows you. Malpractice is what caused the docs in AZ to quit... that and old age.

reply from: galen

Just as I said; you have no intention of 'sticking to the topic'.
If you did, you'd drop this, as it is apparently irrelevant.
My private messaging has been turned off for months, and it will stay that way.
Trying to convert people IS attacking their beliefs! It's telling them that their belief system is wrong and that yours is the only valid one.
I respect religions that don't force themselves on others.
Yours is not one of them.
You are just a lying cunt. ***** you.
________________________________________
leftists can you have any type of discussion w/ someone who disagrees with you without devolving into four letter words.. at least be more creative.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

________________________________________
leftists can you have any type of discussion w/ someone who disagrees with you without devolving into four letter words.. at least be more creative.
It is not a disagreement she went on the attack. Big difference. What she said was far more offensive than four letter words.

reply from: galen

Oh, I guess the guy who stuck his foot in the door (after my mother tried to close it on him) that was trying to coerce my mother into converting wasn't forcing anything?
Every religion claims to be superior.
Yours is no different from the rest.
_________________________________________
no really he was trying to teach her a new form of string theory... i swear.

reply from: joe

My point proves your point flawed. FOCA is going to be a devastating blow and yet not a single violent act can be claimed to have caused it. Point is, you cannot say that restrictions are passed because of violent activism. They would have passed FACE (or something similar)...regardless of Paul Hill.
They will restrict any activism...period.

reply from: faithman

Face was legislated before Paul hill and was aimed more at the blocade movement. Blockades have stopped, but them clinics keep a burning thank God.
My point proves your point flawed. FOCA is going to be a devastating blow and yet not a single violent act can be claimed to have caused it. Point is, you cannot say that restrictions are passed because of violent activism. They would have passed FACE (or something similar)...regardless of Paul Hill.
They will restrict any activism...period.

reply from: galen

Actually, it's horrible that the clinics keep burning they provide more than just abortions; they provide a host of services for women.
If you want to end abortion, that's fine. But burning a place that also provides non-abortion services is just idiotic - a complete waste of resources.
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and runs the risk of killing pregnant women and their babies..

reply from: galen

Just as I said; you have no intention of 'sticking to the topic'.
If you did, you'd drop this, as it is apparently irrelevant.
My private messaging has been turned off for months, and it will stay that way.
Trying to convert people IS attacking their beliefs! It's telling them that their belief system is wrong and that yours is the only valid one.
I respect religions that don't force themselves on others.
Yours is not one of them.
You are just a lying cunt. ***** you.
________________________________________
leftists can you have any type of discussion w/ someone who disagrees with you without devolving into four letter words.. at least be more creative.
It is not a disagreement she went on the attack. Big difference. What she said was far more offensive than four letter words.
**************************************************
I don't see it.

reply from: faithman

Face was legislated before Paul hill and was aimed more at the blocade movement. Blockades have stopped, but them clinics keep a burning thank God.
My point proves your point flawed. FOCA is going to be a devastating blow and yet not a single violent act can be claimed to have caused it. Point is, you cannot say that restrictions are passed because of violent activism. They would have passed FACE (or something similar)...regardless of Paul Hill.
They will restrict any activism...period.
You need to do some research. The legislation was stalled, and might never have passed. The murders committed by Hill and others lent a sense of urgency to the passing, as well as validating the claims on which the perceived need for the legislation was based. This is stated clearly by the legislators themselves...
It had nothing to do with Hill. Face passed in May of 94. Hill justifiably stopped the abortionist in july of that year. It was actually the passage of face that provoked him more. Do your own research ape man. You are simply wrong on this one.

reply from: galen

well if CP was wrong so was Joe...

reply from: faithman

Face was legislated before Paul hill and was aimed more at the blocade movement. Blockades have stopped, but them clinics keep a burning thank God.
My point proves your point flawed. FOCA is going to be a devastating blow and yet not a single violent act can be claimed to have caused it. Point is, you cannot say that restrictions are passed because of violent activism. They would have passed FACE (or something similar)...regardless of Paul Hill.
They will restrict any activism...period.
You need to do some research. The legislation was stalled, and might never have passed. The murders committed by Hill and others lent a sense of urgency to the passing, as well as validating the claims on which the perceived need for the legislation was based. This is stated clearly by the legislators themselves...
It had nothing to do with Hill. Face passed in May of 94. Hill justifiably stopped the abortionist in july of that year. It was actually the passage of face that provoked him more. Do your own research ape man. You are simply wrong on this one.
I don't believe I ever claimed it was specifically the Hill murders that caused the passing of FACE, but anti-abortion violence in general. I certainly hope you don't mean to imply that my contention is invalidated by the fact that FACE was already enacted before the Hill murders. The legislation was stalled until the Gunn murder, which pushed it on through. Had it not been for that, there can be little doubt the Hill murders, or any other, would have had the same effect. The timing of the Hill murders in no way effects my argument.
Yes you did jerk. Go back and read your post!! You specificly said Hill. Face had more to do with blockade than lethal force.

reply from: faithman

http://www.reproductiverights.org/st_law_face.html

I have a question for those who continually condemn pro-lifers for refusing to condone anti-abortion violence, and claim that "our way" has failed for 35 years. Does it appear that your way worked?
Yes it has. The lack of doctors is atributed to the fact they are afraid to get involved. Everytime a clinic burns, more close because of the cost of insurance. Workers quit if they think the AOG might be near. All very good things that are doing more to end it than all your monkey boy ego driven empty words.

reply from: faithman

I specifically mentioned Hill, but never implied the single case was the problem. An isolated case would have been much easier to deal with. The legislation was stalled by arguments that most prolifers engaged only in civil disobedience (like blockades), and the first amendment rights of protesters was being weighed against the potential for serious violence. The Gunn murder was the straw that broke the camel's back, and the legislation was hurried through, not only helping prevent further violence, but hindering legitimate activism as well. Had the violence not escalated to include murder, the legislation might never have passed, and who knows how many more lives could have been saved by legitimate activism.
Your so called legit activism still goes on. I stood at the clinic thru all those years and was never hindered at all. There had been only one doc killed at that point. As I accuratly stated, FACE was part of what motivated Hill, not the other way around. Another one of those what if might haves that has no bearing on what is. I think more lives could have been saved if so called pro-life leaders would have applauded hill, and more clinics and doctors put out of business by emulation insted of condemnation. FACE proved that PL is led by cowards.

reply from: faithman

http://www.reproductiverights.org/st_law_face.html
">http://www.reproductiverights....t_law_face.html
I have a question for those who continually condemn pro-lifers for refusing to condone anti-abortion violence, and claim that "our way" has failed for 35 years. Does it appear that your way worked?
Yes it has. The lack of doctors is atributed to the fact they are afraid to get involved. Everytime a clinic burns, more close because of the cost of insurance. Workers quit if they think the AOG might be near. All very good things that are doing more to end it than all your monkey boy ego driven empty words.
If all that violence successfully solved the problem, why are we here? Are you saying you believe it has helped our cause, and that is enough for you? And yet, you claim "our way" has not worked, because abortion on demand is still legal? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. How do you know it has not been legitimate efforts that have made the difference? The decline in providers has been noticeable in the last decade despite the fact that there has been much less violence, and there was no real noticeable decline during the years when the most violence was committed.
When Tiller was shot, didn't he return to work the very next day? He sure didn't act scared....He still hasn't stopped, has he? You are desperate to condone violence, and I don't think you even care if it has helped or hurt our cause. I think your primary concern here is punitive action. You think they deserve to die, so you condone killing them. It's as simple as that. I'm convinced that, if you knew killing an abortionist would cause thousands more babies to die, you would still condone it, probably rationalizing it by blaming those deaths on the dead abortionist as well...
While recorded abortion numbers show a steady decline (despite the fact that less violence has been committed in the last decade, go figure ), optimists seem to ignore the fact that many more women are no doubt taking advantage of new technology in early "home abortions" (which obviously would not be included in the stats).
I am saying that your way has not only failed miserably, but has hindered the end by taking lethal force off of the table. There would be more justified defensive action is phonies like you Benham, and Pravone would shut up and stay out of the way. It is an ugly job, but must be done. Chamberland tried to stop Hitler your way and failed which almost cost England their country. It took a churchhill that realized the only thing an evil aggressor understands is a closed fist.

reply from: faithman

And the prop with the tiller case is that Shelly went soft, and thought tiller would quit if she merely wounded him. Her mistake is not aiming for the forhead. Heart shot would not work because it has none.

reply from: galen

the problem was she turned him into a martyr either way...

reply from: faithman

The problem is she did a half job. A live martyr can still kill babies. Kinda hard for a dead one to do the same.

reply from: galen

no but a dead one can be used to inspire others to do the same...
Dead martyrs are always better because they can not change their minds or talk back... what would the world be like if Tiller changes his mind?

reply from: faithman

The world would have several more children, and a few more women if the job had been done right. I care more about the children than their killer.

reply from: galen

i care about the kids too.. i also don't want to creat more of them for him to dispose of...
i pray for this Dr's conversion every night.

reply from: faithman

As well as many of us have done for almost 2 decades. I also pray that if he refuses to convert, for God to take him out. Don't have to be death. Stroke would work fine for me.

reply from: cracrat

Speaking of wasting people's time...
I owe you an apology for blatantly trolling you and wasting your time.
You're the only one here that has a reason for wanting abortion abolished that is based on solid logic; rather than blind adherence to organised religion.
That's a view I can almost agree with.
I take exception to that. I rather value my sense of logic that led me to conclude abortion is wrong. And no, I don't adhere to any organised religion.

reply from: cracrat

This poll was done just a few days ago. Since one must oppose any and every abortion to be pro-life, it appears you have just shy of 20% support. Perhaps that is why nothing is changing.
http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

reply from: cracrat

I haven't seen you put in anywhere near the time and effort that CP has in explaining his reasoning as to why abortion is wrong.
Would you like me to go through it again?

reply from: yoda

Second Tuesday of every week.

reply from: joe

Confused? Brainwashed? Scared?
Answer: All the above.

reply from: joe

You must be joking. All that violence? Give me a break, the violence committed is nothing.
There should have been 1,000 doctors "stopped" permanently every year. Even then, it is only a fraction of the movement involved. (not advocating any violence and we know this is not going to happen but it is the message that must be clear).
The abortion industry would be mostly destroyed and operating under army like security...hidden, sending a clear social message of the evil it represents to all the "confused" girls.
Abortion will never be totally stopped but it should be hidden in depths of Hell.

reply from: yoda

Topic Title: Agression
Topic Summary: question for those who advocate this tactic.
Okay, who are these guys, anyway, and in which posts did they advocate aggression?

reply from: joe

You must be joking. All that violence? Give me a break, the violence committed is nothing.
There should have been 1,000 doctors "stopped" permanently every year. Even then, it is only a fraction of the movement involved. (not advocating any violence and we know this is not going to happen but it is the message that must be clear).
The abortion industry would be mostly destroyed and operating under army like security...hidden, sending a clear social message of the evil it represents to all the "confused" girls.
Abortion will never be totally stopped but it should be hidden in depths of Hell.
No response from the idiot.
Whatever they did to you in prison, you must still be shaking...concernedparent, or is that Mrs. concernedparent.

reply from: joe

Dumbass...
Hey dumbass, can't you read...past tense. The real problem, you are scared to even admit that it could have worked...logically. You sweat even thinking about it. If you do not have the balls to face the truth...avoid the subject.

reply from: joe

Not advocating today...read disclaimer.

reply from: galen

Confused? Brainwashed? Scared?
Answer: All the above.
_________________________________________
if you think i am the one that's scared i dare you to spend 1 day walking in my life... you'll understand what fear is buddy....

reply from: galen

Joe FM leftist ( who later took it bak)... they know who they are...

reply from: joe

Galen, I do not underestimate what you have been through and the bravery it took to move on. That I applaud and appreciate.
This is a separate issue, an issue many fear to even consider. I understand why some run for cover when it is presented and avoid any logical conclusion to its effect...it is not for everybody. This issue is the toughest I have ever faced, considering my allegiance to the teachings of Christ. I do not know the answer but I will not avoid seeking the truth because of fear.
Like I told concernedparent, if you fear the logical conclusion...you should avoid the subject.

reply from: sheri

Joe, you should admit there have been many setbacks for prolifers due to what paul hill did. The authorities have been much more eager to go after us since then, it has directly effected our efforts here. Though i know the question is wether or not his act was justifiable.
You people do realize you are taking a risk just talking about this? What is the point? no one here is advocating violence, why discuss it?

reply from: galen

to those who think the 60's and 70's were about more than peaceful activism.
read this:
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.
The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgFyTTrGAVg
">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgFyTTrGAVg
this song and other's like it were written for profit... as Dylan had said...'its kinda what people want to hear.'
90% of the protests during the 60's were about equality, freedom and STOPPING aggression in the Vietnam war. The few terroristic threats came from government plants ( remember the FBI) trying to make the protesters look bad.. ( yes these are documented). and the ecoterrorists that wanted to protest things like nuclear power.
The few violent Antiwar protests did NOTHING to stop the war, and they did NOTHING to make the people of average america do anything more than shake their heads and wonder 'what has happened to our world?'
The protests for black equality and feminism were the same... violence was looked on a a reason to 'beat up a few n******' and lynch a few more. It gave bigots a reason to hate black people... look at what happened in New York and Mississippi...
the point is... peaceful protest can serve a better purpose.. than one that may have you jailed or killed. Or a killing that does nothing for your cause but add a few bodies to the pyre.
I have no idea where the romanticising of the '60's and '70's came from... but i do know that what i grew up in was neither romantic nor was it special. It was life... and you got through it the best way you can....
We will have to change the hearts and minds of an entire society that feels abortion is OK before any type of law making can undo what was fought so hard for in this era... fought for because the society at the time felt it was needed. Now that science and technology have caught up with birth controll methods... there is no reason for abortion and no reason for women to feel opressed by their sexuality.

reply from: joe

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.

reply from: galen

Some people dream of the 'glory' of Rambo... and shrink from their duty when asked to preform it legally... ie in the service of their country. I am amazed how few people who feel our war overseas justified, and did nothing themselves to enlist.
Even though our philosophies in life may differ, I have the utmost respect however for those people who did.
i do feel however that Joes and the rest of them are playing the 'poor me they won't let me fight' card when it comes to abortion... if they were all out there helping in any way shape or form, i am quite sure we would see more of an influx of people volunteering to help in shelters. In poor areas of town, and more protesters in front of clinics.
Where are the Joes and leftists, when the doctor drives home? why isn't one of them chained to their car? Or their home? or theoir apartment building? Why ?because they are more interested in starting a war than fighting in one....
I am tired of people who say that agression is the only way to stand up for things.. and i am tired of the way that snot nosed little whiners decide that the only way to proove their worth to themselves and others is to stand behinde a little sign on a blog/ website/ etc and scream for bloodshed when they are unwilling to shed their own.

reply from: galen

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.
______________________________________________
i'll believe you actually mean any of this joe... when i see your face on the evening news.....

reply from: joe

Thank you for explaining to me how I feel. This is full of lies.
1. I do not advocate violence but will not condemn it on moral grounds.
2. There is no evidence suggesting harm caused by any activism.
3. They will restrict every possible pro-life effort until we accept abortion and end this culture war. (example: FOCA). It will not end until we concede and do nothing.

reply from: galen

Thank you for explaining to me how I feel. This is full of lies.
1. I do not advocate violence but will not condemn it on moral grounds.
2. There is no evidence suggesting harm caused by any activism.
3. They will restrict every possible pro-life effort until we accept abortion and end this culture war. (example: FOCA). It will not end until we concede and do nothing.
__________________________________________________________
so when do we get to see you on the evening news Joe?
put up or shut up big guy....

reply from: joe

I am tired of you liars that would defend your own live or the live of a loved one and turn around and condemn a hero....hypocrites and liars, let the unborn judge your sin.
End it here cowards and traitors.

reply from: faithman

Joe FM leftist ( who later took it bak)... they know who they are...
You know, it's just so obvious, I'm amazed Joe denies it...Page after page, they defend anti-abortion violence, then turn around and say "I'm not advocating violence..." I can't figure out whether they're really that stupid or just hoping everybody else is.
Then Joe has the unmitigated gall to accuse others of "cowardice!" I have given this a lot of thought, which should be obvious from my arguments. Joe seems to think whoever gets the last word wins, and if that's enough for him, he can have it. I just get so tired of arguing with stupidity. I mean, how many times can you repeat an argument? We've done this to death more times than I care to count.
Leftist shows up to "test the waters," but he was careful about what he said. Some of these guys just like to keep a discussion going along these lines as a form of terrorism, having no intention of ever committing an act of violence, but hoping they will scare people who work in the abortion industry. I certainly understand that, but I don't condone that any more than I do the actual violence for 2 reasons.
The first reason is that it has the same effect as the violence, that being to show prolife in a poor light. It's not as bad as actual violence, but I think it does more harm than good, that is, I think the potential for scaring abortionists out of performing abortions is minimal, but that the effect on public opinion is really detrimental. I considered such strategies carefully, and I just don't think they will help our cause more than they hurt it.
The second reason is that when they try to shame people into agreeing with them, such as by condemning them as insincere and not really caring about unborn children, there is a very real potential for actually convincing someone to commit a murder. Frankly, I think they hope this will be the case. These cowards don't have the balls to put their own lives on the line, but they don't mind egging others on like a bunch of Kids jeering and yelling "chicken" from the sidelines. The next thing you know, you have a truly dedicated pro-lifer throwing his life away and really accomplishing nothing positive, just like in the case of Paul Hill.
I think I've made some damned good arguments against this kind of thing, and I really don't see how any intelligent person could fail to understand that violence does far more harm than it ever could do good, if in fact it does any good at all... I could keep repeating myself ad infinitum, but I really see no point. Anybody who doesn't get it by now probably never will. I'm not sure any of these guys are just that stupid that they can't understand my arguments, so I honestly think they don't care if it helps or hurts the cause. I'm convinced that they just hate the abortionists so much that they want them punished in any way possible. I think some are more worried about somebody getting away with something than they are about saving lives.
That's really discouraging to me, but I see no other explanation, unless they really are just that stupid...
You have proved nothing. All you have done is hurt pro-life by taking the one sure way of stopping the slaughter off the table. Any inteligent person will see that there are justified force laws in all 50 states to protect born people. When you deny the same for the womb child you agree with planned parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen and does not deserve the same consideration as the born child. You are the one who is full of crap and are the stupidest poster on this forum. You have agreed with Planned Parenthood on this forum on many occasions. When you agree with the womb child's enemy it makes you one. You are a lying scum bag humanist who is full of crap and has sold the womb child out on a number of occasions. You are not really pro-life at all, and anyone with a half of lick of sence can see that. All you do is undermine real pro-life activism while doing absolutely nothing yourself. You are the convict phony monkey boy who has no balls.

reply from: galen

I am tired of you liars that would defend your own live or the live of a loved one and turn around and condemn a hero....hypocrites and liars, let the unborn judge your sin.
End it here cowards and traitors.
What hero? YOU? but you haven't done anything yet..... show me a hero and i will laude him/her to the end of my days...
I repect Yoda... i see his website and KNOW he's doing something...same with mark and same with the priests... heck I"M not that hard to miss in the area of the country where i reside ( unfortunately)... so where are you Joe?
I'll believe all your posturings when i see you on the evening news... untill then.. shut up... go do something useful... go find a baby to diaper.

reply from: joe

________________________________________________________
so when do we get to see you on the evening news Joe?
put up or shut up big guy....
Are you blind?
Read #1.

reply from: galen

Joe FM leftist ( who later took it bak)... they know who they are...
You know, it's just so obvious, I'm amazed Joe denies it...Page after page, they defend anti-abortion violence, then turn around and say "I'm not advocating violence..." I can't figure out whether they're really that stupid or just hoping everybody else is.
Then Joe has the unmitigated gall to accuse others of "cowardice!" I have given this a lot of thought, which should be obvious from my arguments. Joe seems to think whoever gets the last word wins, and if that's enough for him, he can have it. I just get so tired of arguing with stupidity. I mean, how many times can you repeat an argument? We've done this to death more times than I care to count.
Leftist shows up to "test the waters," but he was careful about what he said. Some of these guys just like to keep a discussion going along these lines as a form of terrorism, having no intention of ever committing an act of violence, but hoping they will scare people who work in the abortion industry. I certainly understand that, but I don't condone that any more than I do the actual violence for 2 reasons.
The first reason is that it has the same effect as the violence, that being to show prolife in a poor light. It's not as bad as actual violence, but I think it does more harm than good, that is, I think the potential for scaring abortionists out of performing abortions is minimal, but that the effect on public opinion is really detrimental. I considered such strategies carefully, and I just don't think they will help our cause more than they hurt it.
The second reason is that when they try to shame people into agreeing with them, such as by condemning them as insincere and not really caring about unborn children, there is a very real potential for actually convincing someone to commit a murder. Frankly, I think they hope this will be the case. These cowards don't have the balls to put their own lives on the line, but they don't mind egging others on like a bunch of Kids jeering and yelling "chicken" from the sidelines. The next thing you know, you have a truly dedicated pro-lifer throwing his life away and really accomplishing nothing positive, just like in the case of Paul Hill.
I think I've made some damned good arguments against this kind of thing, and I really don't see how any intelligent person could fail to understand that violence does far more harm than it ever could do good, if in fact it does any good at all... I could keep repeating myself ad infinitum, but I really see no point. Anybody who doesn't get it by now probably never will. I'm not sure any of these guys are just that stupid that they can't understand my arguments, so I honestly think they don't care if it helps or hurts the cause. I'm convinced that they just hate the abortionists so much that they want them punished in any way possible. I think some are more worried about somebody getting away with something than they are about saving lives.
That's really discouraging to me, but I see no other explanation, unless they really are just that stupid...
You have proved nothing. All you have done is hurt pro-life by taking the one sure way of stopping the slaughter off the table. Any inteligent person will see that there are justified force laws in all 50 states to protect born people. When you deny the same for the womb child you agree with planned parenthood that the womb child is a second class citizen and does not deserve the same consideration as the born child. You are the one who is full of crap and are the stupidest poster on this forum. You have agreed with Planned Parenthood on this forum on many occasions. When you agree with the womb child's enemy it makes you one. You are a lying scum bag humanist who is full of crap and has sold the womb child out on a number of occasions. You are not really pro-life at all, and anyone with a half of lick of sence can see that. All you do is undermine real pro-life activism while doing absolutely nothing yourself. You are the convict phony monkey boy who has no balls.
____________________________________________________
heck i even respect FM more than you Joe... at least he offers a service( i am a person materials)....what do you do Joe?

reply from: galen

________________________________________________________
so when do we get to see you on the evening news Joe?
put up or shut up big guy....
Are you blind?
Read #1.
_______________________________________
nope i said why are you not chained to some doctors car JOE?

reply from: joe

I do not need a traitors respect.

reply from: galen

Paul Hill.
______________________________________
so show me 1 story where he saved a woman's child.... just one. Yoda has at least that....
you can't they don't seem to exsist...
i can say this because almost every time someone saves a child or a child survives an abortion.. those children are held up as a example for all to see... remember the 1 armed girl?
So i am pretty sure that if 1 of PH's acts saved a child from death the mom would surely have cashed in that child to the prolife sites by now....no he may have delayed their deaths... but i'm pretty sure they all went on a week or 2 later. And he added his own death to the stats.

reply from: galen

I do not need a traitors respect.
______________________________________________________________
In what way am i a traitor Joe? I really can't wait to hear this one...

reply from: joe

FOCA is more dangerous than any "violent" pro-lifer. Obama promised that is the first thing he will sign once in the office.

reply from: faithman

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.
______________________________________________
i'll believe you actually mean any of this joe... when i see your face on the evening news.....
Joe doesn't understand that "they" can't just arbitrarily deny us our rights. The only way we "they" can stop "any and all activism" is if our exercising of our rights infringe on the rights of others. If we do stupid things that force "them" to take legal action to protect the rights of others (such as their rights to be safe), then we might see all activism stopped.
If FOCA passes, which is unlikely, it will make our legal battle more complicated and limit our options, but it will by no means represent the "end of the line" for pro-life. It should be obvious that there is not going to be a mass rebellion to overthrow our government over the abortion issue, and it should be equally obvious that it will be a lot easier to get an overwhelming majority to oppose abortion than it would be to get that same majority to enter into a violent revolt. And, if we had an overwhelming majority, we wouldn't even have to consider such drastic means, since we could then effect change by legitimate means!
We need to be doing everything in our power to win support for our cause, and in the mean time, we need activists in the streets saving as many lives as possible. What we don't need is any prolifer doing anything stupid (like committing acts of violence), since that compromises our efforts to win support, and could very well further hinder our ability to be in the streets trying to save lives while we are trying to gain enough support to actually win this fight...
Once again the monkey boy dumb ass is wrong. Every time a clinic goes down children are saved, insuranse goes up and puts other clinics out, and clinic workers quit shutting even more clinics down. It helps the other efforts by striking fear into abortion workers everytime activist show up even if they are passifist. It also ups the cost for clinics to add security. For a secular humanist phony like monkey boy to make such stupid statements is futher proof that he cares more about himself than anything else and is willing to sell the womb child out just to look good. He is just as guilty as the abortionist by protecting them insted of the womb child.

reply from: joe

You condemned a hero who saved lives that day....that is a fact. (nobody knows what happened after that day)

reply from: joe

You condemned a hero based on assumptions??? I will not judge on assumptions.

reply from: galen

You condemned a hero based on assumptions??? I will not judge on assumptions.
_______________________________________
then show me a hero based on proof... proove he saved a life.

reply from: galen

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.
______________________________________________
i'll believe you actually mean any of this joe... when i see your face on the evening news.....
Joe doesn't understand that "they" can't just arbitrarily deny us our rights. The only way we "they" can stop "any and all activism" is if our exercising of our rights infringe on the rights of others. If we do stupid things that force "them" to take legal action to protect the rights of others (such as their rights to be safe), then we might see all activism stopped.
If FOCA passes, which is unlikely, it will make our legal battle more complicated and limit our options, but it will by no means represent the "end of the line" for pro-life. It should be obvious that there is not going to be a mass rebellion to overthrow our government over the abortion issue, and it should be equally obvious that it will be a lot easier to get an overwhelming majority to oppose abortion than it would be to get that same majority to enter into a violent revolt. And, if we had an overwhelming majority, we wouldn't even have to consider such drastic means, since we could then effect change by legitimate means!
We need to be doing everything in our power to win support for our cause, and in the mean time, we need activists in the streets saving as many lives as possible. What we don't need is any prolifer doing anything stupid (like committing acts of violence), since that compromises our efforts to win support, and could very well further hinder our ability to be in the streets trying to save lives while we are trying to gain enough support to actually win this fight...
Once again the monkey boy dumb ass is wrong. Every time a clinic goes down children are saved, insuranse goes up and puts other clinics out, and clinic workers quit shutting even more clinics down. It helps the other efforts by striking fear into abortion workers everytime activist show up even if they are passifist. It also ups the cost for clinics to add security. For a secular humanist phony like monkey boy to make such stupid statements is futher proof that he cares more about himself than anything else and is willing to sell the womb child out just to look good. He is just as guilty as the abortionist by protecting them insted of the womb child.
_____________________________________________________
i see CP as more of a hero than PH.. at least we KNOW where his ) cp's) child ended up...

reply from: galen

You condemned a hero based on assumptions??? I will not judge on assumptions.
_______________________________
proove children were saved.....

reply from: joe

_____________________________________
then show me a hero based on proof... proove he saved a life.
You condemned and judged him. The proof is your burden, you accused him.

reply from: galen

You condemned a hero based on assumptions??? I will not judge on assumptions.
Joe says the difference between a murderer and a hero is how he feels about the victims....
_____________________________________________
interesting... by that logic then Hitler was a hero of the German people....funny they do not regard him as a hero today...
Same for Stalin, and Pol Pot.

reply from: faithman

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.
______________________________________________
i'll believe you actually mean any of this joe... when i see your face on the evening news.....
Joe doesn't understand that "they" can't just arbitrarily deny us our rights. The only way we "they" can stop "any and all activism" is if our exercising of our rights infringe on the rights of others. If we do stupid things that force "them" to take legal action to protect the rights of others (such as their rights to be safe), then we might see all activism stopped.
If FOCA passes, which is unlikely, it will make our legal battle more complicated and limit our options, but it will by no means represent the "end of the line" for pro-life. It should be obvious that there is not going to be a mass rebellion to overthrow our government over the abortion issue, and it should be equally obvious that it will be a lot easier to get an overwhelming majority to oppose abortion than it would be to get that same majority to enter into a violent revolt. And, if we had an overwhelming majority, we wouldn't even have to consider such drastic means, since we could then effect change by legitimate means!
We need to be doing everything in our power to win support for our cause, and in the mean time, we need activists in the streets saving as many lives as possible. What we don't need is any prolifer doing anything stupid (like committing acts of violence), since that compromises our efforts to win support, and could very well further hinder our ability to be in the streets trying to save lives while we are trying to gain enough support to actually win this fight...
Once again the monkey boy dumb ass is wrong. Every time a clinic goes down children are saved, insuranse goes up and puts other clinics out, and clinic workers quit shutting even more clinics down. It helps the other efforts by striking fear into abortion workers everytime activist show up even if they are passifist. It also ups the cost for clinics to add security. For a secular humanist phony like monkey boy to make such stupid statements is futher proof that he cares more about himself than anything else and is willing to sell the womb child out just to look good. He is just as guilty as the abortionist by protecting them insted of the womb child.
Clinics are shutting down, but nobody is blowing them up or killing people...Go figure.
Your just to big a dumb ass to look at the truth. Clinics are still burning, the media just don't show it because they know what I am saying is true. Florida, and New Mexico, as well as a failed attempt in Austin Texas are the most resent, and all the clinics are whinning about the added cost of beefed up security. They simply don't want women to think that it might be dangerous to go have their baby killed. Of course the have lying convict phonies like you doing their bidding as well, spreading your lies and actually doing nothing to save babies.

reply from: joe

Hey idiot, that day dozens were saved...that is a fact.

reply from: galen

Hey idiot, that day dozens were saved...that is a fact.
___________________________
Proove it....

reply from: joe

What the...???
Concernedparent, I would be careful about such loaded questions.

reply from: faithman

FOCA is going to destroy all the efforts accomplished by peaceful means. Are you going to advocate we stop saving the unborn by legislative means because of FOCA.
Point being, they will stop any and all activism until they win...that is the truth.
______________________________________________
i'll believe you actually mean any of this joe... when i see your face on the evening news.....
Joe doesn't understand that "they" can't just arbitrarily deny us our rights. The only way we "they" can stop "any and all activism" is if our exercising of our rights infringe on the rights of others. If we do stupid things that force "them" to take legal action to protect the rights of others (such as their rights to be safe), then we might see all activism stopped.
If FOCA passes, which is unlikely, it will make our legal battle more complicated and limit our options, but it will by no means represent the "end of the line" for pro-life. It should be obvious that there is not going to be a mass rebellion to overthrow our government over the abortion issue, and it should be equally obvious that it will be a lot easier to get an overwhelming majority to oppose abortion than it would be to get that same majority to enter into a violent revolt. And, if we had an overwhelming majority, we wouldn't even have to consider such drastic means, since we could then effect change by legitimate means!
We need to be doing everything in our power to win support for our cause, and in the mean time, we need activists in the streets saving as many lives as possible. What we don't need is any prolifer doing anything stupid (like committing acts of violence), since that compromises our efforts to win support, and could very well further hinder our ability to be in the streets trying to save lives while we are trying to gain enough support to actually win this fight...
Once again the monkey boy dumb ass is wrong. Every time a clinic goes down children are saved, insuranse goes up and puts other clinics out, and clinic workers quit shutting even more clinics down. It helps the other efforts by striking fear into abortion workers everytime activist show up even if they are passifist. It also ups the cost for clinics to add security. For a secular humanist phony like monkey boy to make such stupid statements is futher proof that he cares more about himself than anything else and is willing to sell the womb child out just to look good. He is just as guilty as the abortionist by protecting them insted of the womb child.
_____________________________________________________
i see CP as more of a hero than PH.. at least we KNOW where his ) cp's) child ended up...
Only by his word, and the word of a lying phony humanist aint worth much.

reply from: galen

ok try this one you guys....proove this bombing was worth it..
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/18/rudolph.sentencing/

reply from: galen

What the...???
Concernedparent, I would be careful about such loaded questions.
___________________________________________
why Joe ... you afraid of the 'man'?

reply from: joe

He who violates the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a murderer.
He who defends the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a hero.
Simple. (well maybe not for concernedparent)

reply from: galen

He who violates the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a murderer.
He who defends the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a hero.
Simple. (well maybe not for concernedparent)
_______________________________________________
so put up or shut up Joe......if you are such a hero.....if you REALLY care about those kids, why have YOU not done the same?
I know the answer... your a coward.

reply from: joe

Maybe, just a little bit.

reply from: galen

You see Joe the diffrence between you and me is that I would , and have, put myself between a child and a gun/ father who wants to beat him/ wife who wants to beat her/ knife.etc...what have YOU done?

reply from: joe

I never claimed to be a hero.

reply from: faithman

It was totally worth it. I have already numbered the reasons why. The more these clinics go down, the more it cost for them to do business in insurance and security. It also makes workers quit, and abortionist retire. Why do you think the botheads make such a big deal out of it? Because they know that if they do not cause phoies like CP to condemn it, then they will not be able to keep building clinics fast enough as they are burned down. If we ever started applauding deffensive action, inted of condemning it,the abortion industry would be no more real quick. Or you can listen to the words of a lying phony monkey boy and have another 35 years of dead babies.

reply from: joe

When you resort to personal accusations against someone you don't know...you concede the debate.

reply from: galen

I never claimed to be a hero.
____________________________________________
so why are you all fired up to creat new martyrs for the movement...
tell me Joe.. how many of THESE types of women have YOU saved?
http://www.unfairchoice.info/unwanted.htm

reply from: galen

It was totally worth it. I have already numbered the reasons why. The more these clinics go down, the more it cost for them to do business in insurance and security. It also makes workers quit, and abortionist retire. Why do you think the botheads make such a big deal out of it? Because they know that if they do not cause phoies like CP to condemn it, then they will not be able to keep building clinics fast enough as they are burned down. If we ever started applauding deffensive action, inted of condemning it,the abortion industry would be no more real quick. Or you can listen to the words of a lying phony monkey boy and have another 35 years of dead babies.
________________________________________________________
I applaud any nonviolent defense of the unborn....heck i might change my mind if the violent stuff WORKED... but it does not

reply from: joe

The bodyguard of the assassin is fair game. (disclaimer: I do not advocate violence)...for concernedparent.
The little old lady was not killed.

reply from: galen

The bodyguard of the assassin is fair game. (disclaimer: I do not advocate violence)...for concernedparent.
The little old lady was not killed.
____________________________________________
You ever been shot Joe? I assure you it is not a benign experience. Besides thats an excuse a gangbanger would use not to get convicted.

reply from: faithman

Hey idiot, that day dozens were saved...that is a fact.
___________________________
Proove it....
That day 32 were still alive. It is all over the news, and reports are easily gotten off the net. Now dumb ass, prove that children weren't saved. You keep opening up your stupid mouth about proof, and yet offer none to back up your pro abortionist crap. You can not prove that it hurts anything but the abortion industry. You would rather protect the abortionist than the womb children they kill. Now that is a fact, and the proof is in your dumb ass posts.

reply from: galen

Show me 1 clinic whose insurnce went up from a bombing fore etc... that did not go right back into buisness the next year under a diffrent ownership name... with a reduced rate...
Across the board the only thing that has stayed increased is the cost of malp. and it does not go up forclinic damage... only prooven mistakes by the doc or claims against the doc.

reply from: faithman

It was totally worth it. I have already numbered the reasons why. The more these clinics go down, the more it cost for them to do business in insurance and security. It also makes workers quit, and abortionist retire. Why do you think the botheads make such a big deal out of it? Because they know that if they do not cause phoies like CP to condemn it, then they will not be able to keep building clinics fast enough as they are burned down. If we ever started applauding deffensive action, inted of condemning it,the abortion industry would be no more real quick. Or you can listen to the words of a lying phony monkey boy and have another 35 years of dead babies.
________________________________________________________
I applaud any nonviolent defense of the unborn....heck i might change my mind if the violent stuff WORKED... but it does not
Hey dumb ass I already showed how in many ways it does work. You are just to stuck on stupid to realize it. You would rather have the abortionist protected than the ones they kill. That is a fact by your idiot posts here.

reply from: galen

Hey idiot, that day dozens were saved...that is a fact.
___________________________
Proove it....
That day 32 were still alive. It is all over the news, and reports are easily gotten off the net. Now dumb ass, prove that children weren't saved. You keep opening up your stupid mouth about proof, and yet offer none to back up your pro abortionist crap. You can not prove that it hurts anything but the abortion industry. You would rather protect the abortionist than the womb children they kill. Now that is a fact, and the proof is in your dumb ass posts.
_______________________________________________________
The reports were that the women were reschedualed at another clinic.... there are no reports of a woman who says she did not abort her child in one of those
reschedualed appt later that week.
Again... for the slow... we prolifers are VERY good at tracking down the saves...so if there were any i am pretty sure their pics and stories would too be all over the net...

reply from: galen

It was totally worth it. I have already numbered the reasons why. The more these clinics go down, the more it cost for them to do business in insurance and security. It also makes workers quit, and abortionist retire. Why do you think the botheads make such a big deal out of it? Because they know that if they do not cause phoies like CP to condemn it, then they will not be able to keep building clinics fast enough as they are burned down. If we ever started applauding deffensive action, inted of condemning it,the abortion industry would be no more real quick. Or you can listen to the words of a lying phony monkey boy and have another 35 years of dead babies.
I applaud any nonviolent defense of the unborn....heck i might change my mind if the violent stuff WORKED... but it does not
Hey dumb ass I already showed how in many ways it does work. You are just to stuck on stupid to realize it. You would rather have the abortionist protected than the ones they kill. That is a fact by your idiot posts here.
______________________
if i am a dumbass you are a pawn for the FBI to pull in prolife activists...

reply from: faithman

You are simply wrong again. All clinics property, and liability insurance goes up everytime one burns down. Not just the one that was burnt. Doctors and workers quit, and other forms of activism are enhanced, not deminished. You are just simply pulling things out of your dumb butt, simply because you wish them to be that way. The clinics in Florida are already crying about the high cost of property, and liability insurance. It most assuredly is putting clinics out of business. You just refuse to see it because you are too arrogant to admit you are wrong. Stay out of the monkey poop, you are catching CP disease.

reply from: faithman

He who violates the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a murderer.
He who defends the inherent right to life of a innocent human being is a hero.
Simple. (well maybe not for concernedparent)
So the two victims who were not abortionists were "guilty?" Of what? If they had their grandchildren with them, Hill could "justifiably" (in your twisted view) have shot them too? Just for being with an abortionist?
Once again the dumb ass speaks. An innocent person is not guilty just because they are forced to be with a killer. They were guilty of conspiracy to kill womb children. Just like your dumb phony ass conspires to protect abortionist rather than the womb child.

reply from: faithman

The bodyguard of the assassin is fair game. (disclaimer: I do not advocate violence)...for concernedparent.
The little old lady was not killed.
Hill did shoot her, right? What were they guilty of? Being there? What if they had their grandchildren with them? "Fair game?"
Hill is a "hero" because the little old lady he shot survived?
Hey dumb ass quit confusing two different things. Hill only shoot 2 people.

reply from: galen

You are simply wrong again. All clinics property, and liability insurance goes up everytime one burns down. Not just the one that was burnt. Doctors and workers quit, and other forms of activism are enhanced, not deminished. You are just simply pulling things out of your dumb butt, simply because you wish them to be that way. The clinics in Florida are already crying about the high cost of property, and liability insurance. It most assuredly is putting clinics out of business. You just refuse to see it because you are too arrogant to admit you are wrong. Stay out of the monkey poop, you are catching CP disease.
_________________________________________
crap... just full of it FM... the guy who owns more than 1/2 of the abortion clinics in FL is a millionaire... he screams so the insurance people in FL will insure him at low cost... heck he wrote the book on how to get other people to pay your costs...

reply from: galen

BTW here is another one... did your idealists save anyone that day?... no reschedualed... again.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/28/6043/

so... if they still had abortions... by your own logic in other threads... they don't count as saves...

reply from: faithman

And many abortionist retired, workers quit, and clinics closed.

reply from: galen

they retired for health age reason , or a change of heart based on sonography... i've never heard of one retiring because of violence.
Yes the turnover is great...not because of bombings but because the docs and owners tend to be sociopaths who working for can be, shall we say, challenging.
clinics close because of a lack of buisness... usually because of societal change .. a change in attitude of the surrounding neighborhood... not because someone fired up the place...
look at Tiller's clinic... he has survived all people throw at it..he won't close untill he has a change of heart or his heart gives out.

reply from: galen

look at the new post CP.. some brilliant woman actually wrote a book on this subject...well why abortion won't last.... i'm trying to find the chapter about bombings... oh wait.. it isn't there...

reply from: faithman

All this has happened recently without killing anybody.
But many clinics have burned dumb ass. That is the point. If we can end it without killing fine. But the killings that did happen have helped tremendously. Many have quit, and new doctors are rare because they don't want to wear a flack jacket to work. And not all this has happend resent dumb ass. It has been over a 15year period or so. So shut you lying convict monkey boy mouth.

reply from: galen

All this has happened recently without killing anybody.
But many clinics have burned dumb ass. That is the point. If we can end it without killing fine. But the killings that did happen have helped tremendously. Many have quit, and new doctors are rare because they don't want to wear a flack jacket to work. And not all this has happend resent dumb ass. It has been over a 15year period or so. So shut you lying convict monkey boy mouth.
READ the book under achieving peace... IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT IT WILL SHOW YOU WHY VIOLENCE IS UNNECESSARY...

reply from: faithman

Or someone takes aim at his head insted of his arms. I have personally heard a doctor say he quit because he didn't want to get shot. And you are wrong agan. some clinics do not reopen when burnt, and many of the other you talk about dumb ass close because the cost of liability and property insurance, as wel as the lack of workers and abortionist because they are afraid. Why do you think the media doesn't play up the burnings anymore? Because they know that it hurts the abortion industry 10 times more than the "sacred image" of a disgusting inept pro-life movement.

reply from: galen

GO READ THE BOOK YOU SMALL MINDED MAGGOT STREWN PUNK>

reply from: faithman

I answered your question phony. You just didn't like my answere because it was the right one. You are the dumb ass for not reading it. I don't have to condemn a convict phony, you do that for youerself.

reply from: faithman

I don't have to read a book a dumb ass like you recomends. but if I have stomach trouble and need to throw up maybe. But I have your dumb ass post to read that do a pretty good job. The maagots belong to you and your stupid little goth crap. Go paint your head, you obviously could care less about truely defending babies, but you have no qualms about defending baby killers and phony monkey boyz.

reply from: faithman

I am niether. But you have exposed yourself as a phonyu baby killing monkey boy humanist, who would rather protect the abortionist than the baby. So run off little coward. It is obvious you had your dumb ass kicked tonight.

reply from: galen

I don't have to read a book a dumb ass like you recomends. but if I have stomach trouble and need to throw up maybe. But I have your dumb ass post to read that do a pretty good job. The maagots belong to you and your stupid little goth crap. Go paint your head, you obviously could care less about truely defending babies, but you have no qualms about defending baby killers and phony monkey boyz.
___________________________________________
thats the diffrence between you and me FM.. i would have at least looked at your evidence( if you had any) without resorting to hiding behinde my anger...
I bind unto myself today the strong name of the trinity,
by invocation of the same, the Three in One, the One in Three.
I bind this day to me forever by power of faith Christ's incarnation,
His baptism in the Jordan river, his death on the cross for my salvation;
His bursting from the spiced tomb, his riding up the heavenly way,
His coming at the day of doom I bind unto myself today.
I bind unto myself today the power of God to hold and lead,
His eye to watch, his might to stay, his ear to harken to my need,
The wisdom of my God to teach, his hand to guide, his shield to ward,
The Word of God to give me speech, his heavenly host to be my guard.
Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me;
Christ to comfort and restore me;
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.
I bind unto myself the name, the strong name of the Trinity,
By invocation of the same, the Three in One, and One in Three,
Of whom all nature hath creation, eternal Father, Spirit, Word;
Praise to the God of my salvation, salvation is of Christ the Lord!

reply from: galen

Prayer for Peace
Pope John Paul II
Lord Jesus Christ, who are called the Prince of Peace, who are yourself our peace and reconciliation, who so often said, "Peace to you," grant us peace. Make all men and women witnesses of truth, justice, and brotherly love. Banish from their hearts whatever might endanger peace. Enlighten our rulers that they may guarantee and defend the great gift of peace. May all peoples on the earth become as brothers and sisters. May longed-for peace blossom forth and reign always over us all.

reply from: galen

Prayer for the Helpless Unborn

Heavenly Father, in Your love for us, protect against the wickedness of the devil, those helpless little ones to whom You have given the gift of life.
Touch with pity the hearts of those women pregnant in our world today who are not thinking of motherhood.
Help them to see that the child they carry is made in Your image - as well as theirs - made for eternal life.
Dispel their fear and selfishness and give them true womanly hearts to love their babies and give them birth and all the needed care that a mother can give.
We ask this through Jesus Christ, Your Son, Our Lord, Who lives and reigns with You and Holy Spirit, One God, forever and ever. Amen.

reply from: galen

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God." (Matt. 5:9)

reply from: cracrat

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).

reply from: nancyu

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
No it wasn't acceptable. Nor would it be acceptable to be silent about abortion.
My opinion about violence or aggression against abortion providers is that it is justified if it is done with the intent of defending a child before, or after they are born.
If the child was not saved (as in the case of the shooting of the man beating his child) it is still justified. Even if it inadvertently harms another person; if it was done with the intent of defending someone's life it is still justified.
Killing is sometimes justifiable, but I don't recommend it. Agression, on the other hand...maybe. We still have weapons in this arsenal of information we have here. I think we should keep using them.

reply from: faithman

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
No it wasn't acceptable. Nor would it be acceptable to be silent about abortion.
My opinion about violence or aggression against abortion providers is that it is justified if it is done with the intent of defending a child before, or after they are born.
If the child was not saved (as in the case of the shooting of the man beating his child) it is still justified. Even if it inadvertently harms another person; if it was done with the intent of defending someone's life it is still justified.
Killing is sometimes justifiable, but I don't recommend it. Agression, on the other hand...maybe. We still have weapons in this arsenal of information we have here. I think we should keep using them.
It was the threat of superior force that ended the cold war. It is the threat of force that will cause the abortion industry to colapse reguardless if it is ever outlawed. The cowards who do abortion have a strong sence of self preservation. If clinics become places that threaten that, they will leave in droves. Those are facts. Now we can keep loosing pretty, or we can win ugly. Just rember it is the womb child at stake here. We need to be willing to sacrifice public opinion for their sakes.

reply from: faithman

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
No it wasn't acceptable. Nor would it be acceptable to be silent about abortion.
My opinion about violence or aggression against abortion providers is that it is justified if it is done with the intent of defending a child before, or after they are born.
If the child was not saved (as in the case of the shooting of the man beating his child) it is still justified. Even if it inadvertently harms another person; if it was done with the intent of defending someone's life it is still justified.
Killing is sometimes justifiable, but I don't recommend it. Agression, on the other hand...maybe. We still have weapons in this arsenal of information we have here. I think we should keep using them.
So, if Briton had come to work on a school bus full of children, Hill would have been justified in blowing them all up, based on his intention to prevent abortions, even if he could not reasonably expect his actions to actually prevent any? You guys are so eager to engage in self righteous posturing that you do not even take the time to reason out your declarations....
And you never miss an opertunity to twist words and inject your pro-abort poision at every turn. You play pro-abort what ifgs way to often not to be one. That is the true disgust here.

reply from: cracrat

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
No it wasn't acceptable. Nor would it be acceptable to be silent about abortion.
My opinion about violence or aggression against abortion providers is that it is justified if it is done with the intent of defending a child before, or after they are born.
If the child was not saved (as in the case of the shooting of the man beating his child) it is still justified. Even if it inadvertently harms another person; if it was done with the intent of defending someone's life it is still justified.
Killing is sometimes justifiable, but I don't recommend it. Agression, on the other hand...maybe. We still have weapons in this arsenal of information we have here. I think we should keep using them.
It was the threat of superior force that ended the cold war. It is the threat of force that will cause the abortion industry to colapse reguardless if it is ever outlawed. The cowards who do abortion have a strong sence of self preservation. If clinics become places that threaten that, they will leave in droves. Those are facts. Now we can keep loosing pretty, or we can win ugly. Just rember it is the womb child at stake here. We need to be willing to sacrifice public opinion for their sakes.
When did the cold war come into this? And if it is the threat of force that will end abortion, why are you bothering trying to get personhood for the unborn recognised legally?

reply from: faithman

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
No it wasn't acceptable. Nor would it be acceptable to be silent about abortion.
My opinion about violence or aggression against abortion providers is that it is justified if it is done with the intent of defending a child before, or after they are born.
If the child was not saved (as in the case of the shooting of the man beating his child) it is still justified. Even if it inadvertently harms another person; if it was done with the intent of defending someone's life it is still justified.
Killing is sometimes justifiable, but I don't recommend it. Agression, on the other hand...maybe. We still have weapons in this arsenal of information we have here. I think we should keep using them.
It was the threat of superior force that ended the cold war. It is the threat of force that will cause the abortion industry to colapse reguardless if it is ever outlawed. The cowards who do abortion have a strong sence of self preservation. If clinics become places that threaten that, they will leave in droves. Those are facts. Now we can keep loosing pretty, or we can win ugly. Just rember it is the womb child at stake here. We need to be willing to sacrifice public opinion for their sakes.
When did the cold war come into this? And if it is the threat of force that will end abortion, why are you bothering trying to get personhood for the unborn recognised legally?
That is the final goal. But just as it is in all 50 states, it is legal to use force to protect innocent life. If one believes a womb child to be truely a person right now, Then it is justifiable right now to use force to stop them from being murdered. If it was right to burn SS headquaters in nazi occupied europe, then it is justified to burn the killing centers in humanist occupied america.

reply from: joe

I am niether. But you have exposed yourself as a phonyu baby killing monkey boy humanist, who would rather protect the abortionist than the baby. So run off little coward. It is obvious you had your dumb ass kicked tonight.
Sorry concernedparent...you simply lost again. Your Secular Humanism propaganda will be exposed every single time for the lie it is.
Bottom line: Between the abortionist and the innocent child...you stand with the assassin because it is the "law".

reply from: galen

no the pope was not justified in keeping quiet... but the priests who saved thousands by hiding them moving them to safe nations etc.. were.

reply from: galen

I don't have to read a book a dumb ass like you recomends. but if I have stomach trouble and need to throw up maybe. But I have your dumb ass post to read that do a pretty good job. The maagots belong to you and your stupid little goth crap. Go paint your head, you obviously could care less about truely defending babies, but you have no qualms about defending baby killers and phony monkey boyz.
___________________________________________
thats the diffrence between you and me FM.. i would have at least looked at your evidence( if you had any) without resorting to hiding behinde my anger...
I bind unto myself today the strong name of the trinity,
by invocation of the same, the Three in One, the One in Three.
I bind this day to me forever by power of faith Christ's incarnation,
His baptism in the Jordan river, his death on the cross for my salvation;
His bursting from the spiced tomb, his riding up the heavenly way,
His coming at the day of doom I bind unto myself today.
I bind unto myself today the power of God to hold and lead,
His eye to watch, his might to stay, his ear to harken to my need,
The wisdom of my God to teach, his hand to guide, his shield to ward,
The Word of God to give me speech, his heavenly host to be my guard.
Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me;
Christ to comfort and restore me;
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.
I bind unto myself the name, the strong name of the Trinity,
By invocation of the same, the Three in One, and One in Three,
Of whom all nature hath creation, eternal Father, Spirit, Word;
Praise to the God of my salvation, salvation is of Christ the Lord!

reply from: joe

This is from your article:
"He and his wife, Glenna Halvorson-Boyd, a past president of the National Abortion Federation who is a psychologist at the clinic, vowed to rebuild their operation. But they said it had been difficult to find a new location because landlords were wary of renting to an abortion provider."

reply from: cracrat

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
Joe?

reply from: joe

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
Joe?
I did not study enough history about the silence of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust.
If they remained silent during the slaughter, they would be guilty of breaking the commandment issued by Christ. They should have shown love to the "least of these".

reply from: cracrat

So was the Catholic Church's silence regarding the Holocaust acceptable? They certainly did not advocate it, but they did nothing to condemn it publicly (i have no idea what was said behind closed doors).
Joe?
I did not study enough history about the silence of the Catholic Church during the Holocaust.
If they remained silent during the slaughter, they would be guilty of breaking the commandment issued by Christ. They should have shown love to the "least of these".
Basically it goes like this. The Holocaust was going on all over Europe, the Italian government were bosom buddies of the Nazis. But the Catholic Church had its HQ in the Vatican, right in the heart of Rome, so took the coward's way out and offered no public moral condemnation despite the fact that what was going on was clearly against Christ's teachings.
You do not advocate violance, just as the Catholics did not adovocate the Holocaust, but you will not condemn it, just as the CC did not condemn the Holocaust. Pope John Paul II apologised for the silence of so many of the Church during this period in 1998.
The Pope felt he had to offer an apology for the position held by his predecessor. You appear to have no qualms in maintaining an analogous position. Interesting.

reply from: joe

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.

reply from: faithman

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
http://www.trosch.org/ind/defend-b.html

reply from: cracrat

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
Except that in both instances lives are being taken and those who should at least speak out against it are/did not.
I am unaware of an instance where the would-be defenders of the unborn committed their act of violence whilst the child was suffering their fate. Anti-abortion violence inevitably happens when the abortionist is not doing any harm. It is justified on the basis of their past actions and what the anti-abortionist supposes will happen in the future. CP went to prison for battering the guy who hurt his sister after the event. Had he done what he did whilst the attack was going on I dare say his punishment would have been considerably different. Similarly if I were to beat up on someone because I thought they were going to hurt my mum, however sound my reasoning, I would find myself in hot water.
Paul Hill and the like commit their actions not in defense of the unborn but either as vengence for those who have already died (which really won't help bring them back) or as a pre-emptive strike in aid of future victims, which is flawed because nobody knows what the future holds.

reply from: faithman

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
Except that in both instances lives are being taken and those who should at least speak out against it are/did not.
I am unaware of an instance where the would-be defenders of the unborn committed their act of violence whilst the child was suffering their fate. Anti-abortion violence inevitably happens when the abortionist is not doing any harm. It is justified on the basis of their past actions and what the anti-abortionist supposes will happen in the future. CP went to prison for battering the guy who hurt his sister after the event. Had he done what he did whilst the attack was going on I dare say his punishment would have been considerably different. Similarly if I were to beat up on someone because I thought they were going to hurt my mum, however sound my reasoning, I would find myself in hot water.
Paul Hill and the like commit their actions not in defense of the unborn but either as vengence for those who have already died (which really won't help bring them back) or as a pre-emptive strike in aid of future victims, which is flawed because nobody knows what the future holds.
You are simply telling a lie. The abortionist was in the act of pulling into the parking lot of an abortion mill on killing day to kill babies. He was in the process of slaughtering womb children. He had already been warned to quit. Paul hill saved 32 lives that day.

reply from: joe

Do you need to see their appointment schedule before agreeing that they will die?
It is not "if", it is when the assassin is going to kill. We rescued the still living during the Jewish Holocaust, we did not wait until there was one left, seconds before his death because we "did not know what the future holds".

reply from: yoda

Evidence? You have "evidence"?
And you weren't angry when you said "GO READ THE BOOK YOU SMALL MINDED MAGGOT STREWN PUNK"? How do you talk when you are angry?

reply from: yoda

Including my website?

reply from: yoda

Which prolifers are, and how do they do it? The only way WE find out about saves is if they stop and talk to us, which rarely happens. Otherwise, we have no way of tracking anything..... all that personal info is private, you know?

reply from: yoda

That's a "reliable" source??????

reply from: yoda

Hey, I'm not advocating anything here, but many proaborts do complain that "prolife violence" is driving abortionists out of the business.... you don't think proaborts would lie, do you?

reply from: yoda

That's right, we're all cowards....... happy now?
Oh, btw, you do realize that you're inciting violence, don't you? Actually, that's illegal, did you know that?

reply from: yoda

Joe FM leftist ( who later took it bak).....
In WHICH posts?

reply from: yoda

That was my question about this whole thread, but so far no one has answered it with a quote.
But there is one person urging violence..... galen, when she called Joe a coward for not committing violence.

reply from: Faramir

That's right, we're all cowards....... happy now?
Oh, btw, you do realize that you're inciting violence, don't you? Actually, that's illegal, did you know that?
I believe she's calling all those who applaud and/or advocate violence, but who do not do violence themselves, "cowards."
Is yodavater one who approves of violence?
Or does he remain silent, but tacitly approve?
Or does he condemn it (as any prolifer should)?

reply from: Faramir

That was my question about this whole thread, but so far no one has answered it with a quote.
But there is one person urging violence..... galen, when she called Joe a coward for not committing violence.
Is yodavater really this stupid, or can he simply not resist any temptation to distort what someone else meant?
She was not "urging" violence, but using a rhetorical question to make a very good point.

reply from: joe

Really Faramir? The statement below very well proves she is trying to incite violence.
You are being mean and hateful by endorsing such statements. I cannot believe you call yourself pro-life when you advocate violence by not condemning such statements.

reply from: galen

Including my website?
____________________________________
yes including that... in fact i've said many public kudos on it...and the photos.

reply from: galen

Evidence? You have "evidence"?
And you weren't angry when you said "GO READ THE BOOK YOU SMALL MINDED MAGGOT STREWN PUNK"? How do you talk when you are angry?
____________________________________________
i was reacting... and yes.. i have evidence... my whole centre is evidence that the practice of violence does not work.. in fact violence drives some women to abort...
FM however does NOT have any eveidence that bombing a clinic did anything other than delay a few days or weeks the killing of children... neither did PH..
Again.. if you or anyone else has evidence to the contrary.. i will be glad to see it.

reply from: Faramir

Including my website?
____________________________________
yes including that... in fact i've said many public kudos on it...and the photos.
I'm very surprised you would support that expliotive and meanspirited tactic.

reply from: galen

Which prolifers are, and how do they do it? The only way WE find out about saves is if they stop and talk to us, which rarely happens. Otherwise, we have no way of tracking anything..... all that personal info is private, you know?
__________________________________________
every time a child was born alive and saved we got a story.. now that there is a born alive law in states this is not usually the case..you also see the women coming out of the clinics... and i see the women who show up at my centre.

reply from: galen

That's a "reliable" source??????
__________________________________________
??.. expalin your question .. you are missing me here.

reply from: galen

Hey, I'm not advocating anything here, but many proaborts do complain that "prolife violence" is driving abortionists out of the business.... you don't think proaborts would lie, do you?
___________________________________
the activists.. yes the doctors tend not to. I have yet to hear a doctor say' i left because my clinic was burned down'

reply from: galen

Joe FM leftist ( who later took it bak).....
In WHICH posts?
________________________________________
you did read this thread and yours didn't you?

reply from: galen

That was my question about this whole thread, but so far no one has answered it with a quote.
But there is one person urging violence..... galen, when she called Joe a coward for not committing violence.
____________________________________________
I called joe a coward for saying we should be agressive and condone violence and agreeing w/ FM about bombing clinics... then going out of his way to distance himself from the actual act.. either have the courage of your convictions or keep your yap shut.

reply from: yoda

Yes, you were reacting angrily, which is exactly what FM does.....
And it's not just personal opinion? You have documented, unbiased, peer reviewed research that you can link to?

reply from: yoda

We see them, but they don't have name tags on. How in the world do you know who they are?

reply from: yoda

Ah, the link led to something that called itself a "progressive" newspaper, right? And that makes it a "reliable source"?

reply from: galen

Really Faramir? The statement below very well proves she is trying to incite violence.
You are being mean and hateful by endorsing such statements. I cannot believe you call yourself pro-life when you advocate violence by not condemning such statements.
_____________________________________________________
if you are that dumb then you go ahead.. i will continue to think you are no more a man and more of a coward than most... one who talks big and does nothing.
Funny thing big talk can get you a jail cell... and you won't have even done anything to earn it... certainly you won't have saved any babies like your hero PH>

reply from: yoda

Yes. But the sad part is that you always generalize about these things, you never respond directly to the posts that are "advocating aggression". If you did that, and quoted the part that you think is doing that, we might actually have a rational discussion. Generalization is the "devil's playground".

reply from: yoda

And that DOES constitute "advocating violence"..... the very thing you say you are against....

reply from: joe

At this point you and Faramir have the most to worry about.....you are trying to incite violence from an actual poster, while he is defending such action.

reply from: galen

Including my website?
____________________________________
yes including that... in fact i've said many public kudos on it...and the photos.
I'm very surprised you would support that expliotive and meanspirited tactic.
_____________________________________-
but there it is.. and thats the diffrence between it and firbombing a clinic.. it does come up to the line... and so far at least in 1 case worked. I do not find it mean spirited... if i thought that was the case i would not condone it.. i honestly think he does it with the babies in mind foremost. and he does not kill anyone or destroy property.. and all the have to do not to have their reputaions tarnished is not to show up... he is not exactly a secret.

reply from: yoda

Ah, once again....... a "generalizer".
Would you care to link us to a specific post in which someone did that?
No, I thought not.........

reply from: yoda

Ah, but that means nothing to someone who would attack the Gettysburg Address....

reply from: galen

Yes, you were reacting angrily, which is exactly what FM does.....
And it's not just personal opinion? You have documented, unbiased, peer reviewed research that you can link to?
___________________________________________
no i know what the intake sheets of the women we serve tell us...and actually it is biased... violence that drives them there IS on their bodies... they do get referred to us through many of the protesters outside clinics in 5 diffrent states/ churches/ and catholic charities....NONE of these women was LOVED into an abortion... believe me if i could go out and post all of their stories on the web i would... but even with aliases the'per review' people have nixed that idea.

reply from: yoda

And you don't think that is inciting him to violence?
REALLY?.................... REALLY????

reply from: galen

We see them, but they don't have name tags on. How in the world do you know who they are?
________________________________________________
the children are... or are you saying all those stories on the web are fabrications?

reply from: galen

Ah, the link led to something that called itself a "progressive" newspaper, right? And that makes it a "reliable source"?
______________________________________________-
no did you even read it... that woman is pretty respected and her CV is there to read... why afraid to read the whole thing?

reply from: yoda

I'll take your word for it......... but it's not "evidence".

reply from: galen

Yes. But the sad part is that you always generalize about these things, you never respond directly to the posts that are "advocating aggression". If you did that, and quoted the part that you think is doing that, we might actually have a rational discussion. Generalization is the "devil's playground".
______________________________________________________
I did several times on your thread... i didn't seem to matter to you then. posted and reposted... got quiet long tward the last 4-5 pages.

reply from: Faramir

And you don't think that is inciting him to violence?
REALLY?.................... REALLY????
REALLY, she is NOT.
She is just wondering why he is not putting his money where his mouth is.

reply from: yoda

No, not at all. I'm saying that at the mill where I go on Saturdays we have no way of knowing the names of the customers, and no way of tracing how many do not abort, for whatever reason.

reply from: galen

And that DOES constitute "advocating violence"..... the very thing you say you are against....
______________________________________
no it advocates sarc asm to a person who frustrates me with his whining.

reply from: galen

At this point you and Faramir have the most to worry about.....you are trying to incite violence from an actual poster, while he is defending such action.
_________________________________________________
whiner...

reply from: yoda

It's not fear of anything but falling to sleep...... if I try to read anything longer than 3 paragraphs it puts me to sleep. I skip over long posts, so I can stay awake....... old age is like that.

reply from: yoda

Got a link to that? What was the name of the thread? DID you quote the parts of the post that were "advocating" on that thread?

reply from: galen

Ah, but that means nothing to someone who would attack the Gettysburg Address....
__________________________________________
i remember the adress... what part of it are you referring to?..

reply from: yoda

What is sarcasm to you may be deadly serious to someone else who doesn't know you....... you ought to know that. You can't just expect everyone who reads this forum to know that you "don't really mean what you say", can you?

reply from: galen

And you don't think that is inciting him to violence?
REALLY?.................... REALLY????
_______________________________________
no relly... Joe is a blow hard... i hope he might change a bit... but he doesn't... in fact we NEVER hear of him so much as protesting... even FM sends out pics.. (unless terry and Mark are liars).

reply from: Faramir

Ah, once again....... a "generalizer".
Would you care to link us to a specific post in which someone did that?
No, I thought not.........
Ask him if he will unequivocally denounce violence at abortion clinics, xen.
He will refuse to answer.
First he will say that he denounces the violence against the unborn, which is not an answer to the intent of the question, ane he knows it.
Then, when pressed for an answer, he will dance around it, or will ingnore the question.
Those prolifers who refuse to denounce this kind of violence are showing tacit approval of it.

reply from: galen

I'll take your word for it......... but it's not "evidence".
______________________________________
you don't know how i have LONGED to be able to put it all out here....

reply from: yoda

It was something I posted a day or two ago, about why I had to put fartnomore on ignore because he jumped on every thing I said, even if it was something like the Gettysburg Address..... that's why FM and I started posting it after his posts...... a little "dry humor".......

reply from: yoda

No, they are not liars. But what you think of Joe really doesn't matter to someone who doesn't know either of you, and reads what you wrote. Such a person just might take you at your word, ya know?

reply from: Faramir

And that DOES constitute "advocating violence"..... the very thing you say you are against....
______________________________________
no it advocates sarc asm to a person who frustrates me with his whining.
I support you on this one. You were in no way advocating violence. You were simply questioning why someone who does advocate violence is too chicken to do it himself.

reply from: galen

No, not at all. I'm saying that at the mill where I go on Saturdays we have no way of knowing the names of the customers, and no way of tracing how many do not abort, for whatever reason.
____________________
ah misunderstood you there...

reply from: galen

It's not fear of anything but falling to sleep...... if I try to read anything longer than 3 paragraphs it puts me to sleep. I skip over long posts, so I can stay awake....... old age is like that.
_________________________
that is exactly why there is a link... its actually very good well researched with living breathing people... and she is on OUR ( the prolife) side.

reply from: galen

It was something I posted a day or two ago, about why I had to put fartnomore on ignore because he jumped on every thing I said, even if it was something like the Gettysburg Address..... that's why FM and I started posting it after his posts...... a little "dry humor".......
Gottcha

reply from: joe

(Advocating violence...see example above ^)

reply from: galen

No, they are not liars. But what you think of Joe really doesn't matter to someone who doesn't know either of you, and reads what you wrote. Such a person just might take you at your word, ya know?
______________________________________
there is that possiblility..

reply from: galen

Hypocrite.........
________________________________________________
do nothing

reply from: galen

And that DOES constitute "advocating violence"..... the very thing you say you are against....
______________________________________
no it advocates sarc asm to a person who frustrates me with his whining.
I support you on this one. You were in no way advocating violence. You were simply questioning why someone who does advocate violence is too chicken to do it himself.
________________________________
exactamundo.

reply from: faithman

And that DOES constitute "advocating violence"..... the very thing you say you are against....
______________________________________
no it advocates sarc asm to a person who frustrates me with his whining.
I support you on this one. You were in no way advocating violence. You were simply questioning why someone who does advocate violence is too chicken to do it himself.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
BUMP

reply from: galen

jesus mary and joseph he's found a way to cut and paste...

reply from: galen

This is from your article:
"He and his wife, Glenna Halvorson-Boyd, a past president of the National Abortion Federation who is a psychologist at the clinic, vowed to rebuild their operation. But they said it had been difficult to find a new location because landlords were wary of renting to an abortion provider."
___________________________________________
yep but the eventually did... look up their CV... difficult did not mean they did not.

reply from: yoda

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but fartnomore would agree with the devil himself if he disagreed with me......

reply from: faithman

You make peace with war. Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

reply from: yoda

(Advocating violence...see example above ^)
You're exactly right.... he advocates violence by "egging you on", and then attacks you by claiming you advocate violence..... I wonder what he'd say if we posted the Gettysburg Address?

reply from: galen

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
http://www.trosch.org/ind/defend-b.html
____________________________________________________
gret use FM... use a quote from a priest who supports pedophiles...

reply from: jujujellybean

LOLOL this isn't the first time he's done that....it gets annoying though, esp. because everyone just ignores him....

reply from: Faramir

It was something I posted a day or two ago, about why I had to put fartnomore on ignore because he jumped on every thing I said, even if it was something like the Gettysburg Address..... that's why FM and I started posting it after his posts...... a little "dry humor".......
I thought humor was supposed to be funny.

reply from: yoda

don't you just love the iggy button?

reply from: faithman

It was something I posted a day or two ago, about why I had to put fartnomore on ignore because he jumped on every thing I said, even if it was something like the Gettysburg Address..... that's why FM and I started posting it after his posts...... a little "dry humor".......
I thought humor was supposed to be funny.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
bump

reply from: Faramir

don't you just love the iggy button?
But yoda is the only one who "makes love" to it...
And far too often, IMHO. I don't think he has a clue what's going on around here anymore with 87% of the posters on ignore.

reply from: faithman

don't you just love the iggy button?
But yoda is the only one who "makes love" to it...
And far too often, IMHO. I don't think he has a clue what's going on around here anymore with 87% of the posters on ignore.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
bump

reply from: jujujellybean

LOL keep going fman....see how much time you can waste......I don't think anyone has even read this.

reply from: galen

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
http://www.trosch.org/ind/defend-b.html
____________________________________________________
gret use FM... use a quote from a priest who supports pedophiles...

reply from: faithman

I highlighted your error. You are confusing defense with aggression.
The Jewish Holocaust was the destruction of innocent human life. I would not have condemned force to stop such evil.
The Abortion Holocaust is the destruction of innocent human life. I will not condemn force to stop such evil.
The church must condemn aggression against innocent human life which includes both Abortion and the Holocaust. Failure to condemn either one would not be Christian. It is my understanding from Christian teachings that self defense and defense of the innocent is not condemned...therefore I will not condemn it. I do not advocate it for the sake of peace and hope that this can be resolved politically.
http://www.trosch.org/ind/defend-b.html
____________________________________________________
gret use FM... use a quote from a priest who supports pedophiles...
Once again you lie. Why?

reply from: galen

the proof is there dude and a matter of public record... see your priest thread...

reply from: faithman

I already did, and there is nothing that says the priest who runs the site is a pedophile. SSSSOOOOO post your proof or recant.

reply from: galen

no one said that : i quote:
gret use FM... use a quote from a priest who supports pedophiles...
_____________________________________________________
you do know how to read the word support... don't you?

reply from: faithman

What is hard to read is your post. It doesn't make sense at all.

reply from: galen

makes perfect sense to me and 2 others... that's why i ask "are you ok"?

reply from: cracrat

What is hard to read is your post. It doesn't make sense at all.
You, faithman, commenting on the sense made by another post is rather rich.

reply from: yoda

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, etc., etc., etc......
Isn't it cute how being on iggy seems to cause him/her to get his/her panties all in a wad? As if knowing "what's going on around here" meant anything, anyway.......

reply from: faithman

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, etc., etc., etc......
Isn't it cute how being on iggy seems to cause him/her to get his/her panties all in a wad? As if knowing "what's going on around here" meant anything, anyway.......
Learning to sit down to pee must be inconveniant. And everytime a pro-abort gets inconvenianced, the look for something to kill. Just ask the womb child.

reply from: faithman

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, etc., etc., etc......
Isn't it cute how being on iggy seems to cause him/her to get his/her panties all in a wad? As if knowing "what's going on around here" meant anything, anyway.......
It's good to see Yoda is above all the "disruptive posting" and stays focused on "saving babies." I wonder how many babies were saved by this one?
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

reply from: Faramir

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, etc., etc., etc......
Isn't it cute how being on iggy seems to cause him/her to get his/her panties all in a wad? As if knowing "what's going on around here" meant anything, anyway.......
It's even cuter when someone cowers behind his precious "iggy" button and insults and digs others.


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