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I might be pregnant

But I might be crazy, too

by: KaylieBee

If I am (pregnant, that is) I would be only about a week along, at most.
But due to my paranoia, I'm very afraid that I might be.
I'm 16, I will be turning 17 at the end of august. I love my boyfriend very much, we've been together 19 months. He'll support me no matter what I choose, should I be pregnant.
I have a year of high school remaining, and years of University. Dropping out will never be an option.
I just really need someone to talk to.
I don't know what I will do if I am.

reply from: cracrat

You will have a story of struggling against the odds to tell your child and make him/her proud of thier mum.

reply from: carolemarie

I am glad that your boyfriend would support you in your decisions. It is nice to not be totally alone in all this
You don't have to drop out of school if you are pregnant. You can have your baby and finish on schedule. Same with college. Plenty of single moms go to college. Y
Having a baby doesn't limit your life, but it does change things. There is always adoption if you decide parenting is to hard at your age.
If you look in your phone book under abortion alternatives, there are lots of Pregnancy Help Centers who will help you and let you know about all the options and help that is out there in your area.
You can IM me if you have any questions, I would be glad to help you or just listen!
Blessings,
Carolemarie

reply from: KaylieBee

You see, I want a degree in biology, if I do well next year, and the arts if I don't. (My schedule is math/science heavy) I have trouble focusing on school sometimes, and I'm so easy distracted.
I also doubt I would ever be a fit mother. Not this young, at least. I haven't even had my first job yet. I've never even baby sat for anyone, at least not officially.
And on top of that, I'm extremely childish. Pokemon is one of my favorite games; hell, I even suggested to my boyfriend that we play Pokemon cards after prom!
I love him very much, and he loves me too. =)
I have also decided to abstain from vaginal sex for a long time. This paranoia is a huge sign that I'm not completely mentally ready.

reply from: sander

Why not go get a pregnancy test at your local drug store and find out? If not, then call your local Crisis Pregnancy Center and they will provide testing for free and help you thereafter.
My daughter got pregnant between her junior and senior year of high school, she went thru with her pregnancy, kept her baby and graduated with her class on time.
It is doable and there's help and support out there. Adoption is a kind option, there are many, many couples waiting for a baby, who are more than able, financially, emotionally and spirtually able to raise this child, should you be pregnant.

reply from: Skippy

Have you considered talking to your parents? They might perhaps be a better source of wisdom for you at this time than a bunch of random strangers on the internet are.
Best of luck to you, no matter what you decide.

reply from: KaylieBee

Are there 'Crisis Pregnancy Centres' in Canada? I've only ever heard about them on a pro-choice site I frequent, and I've heard horrible stories about their free pregnancy tests, like how occasionally they lie about the age of the baby, saying its older than it is, etc.
Plus, I'd rather just wait for my period. Can it be detected by a home test so early on?
I'm not even late, how crazy am I? Really, I'm paranoid because my breasts are sore, and that's a symptom of pregnancy, but also a side effect of the pill. I also have occasionally nausea, but only when thinking about how I might be pregnant.
I want to be sure before I talk to them.
I don't want to create a huge storm out of something that didn't really exist.

reply from: cracrat

Possibly. You might get a false negative at this stage so, if it is negative, be sure to do another one in a few weeks time. You're extremely unlikely to get a false positive though at any stage.

reply from: galen

If you are really interested in some prolife answersgo to your nearest Catholic charities...they will help you find out if you are pregnant, talk to you about your options, and help you speak with your parents. You do not have to be Catholic or of any particular religious affiliation...they will help you regardless....
if you want to talk PM me .

reply from: Beprolifewithme

OMJ Congratulations!!! I know this probably isn't the best time for you to have a child, but You have a little you growing inside of you!!!!! Try these sites:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/gethelp/pregnancysupport/canada.html
http://www.ramahinternational.org/canada.html
Search for one by you:
http://www.pregnancycenters.org/advantage.asp

http://www.lilhayat.com/pages/pregnancy-canada.html

I hope that helps, I found them through google, but be careful...there's a lot of prochoice stuff!! Some offer housing, medical etc...actually most do I'll bet. I'm glad your bf is supportive of you, just steer clear of PP, it's something you can NEVER undo. You'll regret an abortion. Tearing apart a precious creation from limb to limb, or sucking it out of it's natural home until it's ready to come see it's momma. Then be tossed into a trash can....horrifying I know!! Good luck, let me know if there's anything else I can help with!!

reply from: AshMarie88

Could this be another janejohnson?

reply from: galen

omg scairy fairy is back... if only to tell us she knows it all...
dear girl(kaylie) go talk to someone in person...i'm now a Phd and was once a BSN and would not tell you how pregnant you are over the comp.

reply from: nancyu

The idea that the law allows you the "right to choose" (to kill your child) is a lie. I hope you won't fall for it. An unborn child is a person, and you are not legally allowed to murder persons. Some would like you to believe (that nasty "a" word) is legal, but it isn't. It is only legal if the baby doesn't die, and the baby most surely does die.
If you are pregnant you will know soon enough. Keep us posted. We might seem like random strangers, but some of us are real people who are willing to help in any way we can.

reply from: nancyu

You would advise a young girl to murder her own child?

reply from: nancyu

-------------------------
I am pro abortion
I am pro adoption
I am pro parenting
...
I am pro whatever the woman wants.
I am also a woman that has had 3 abortions, and I work in an abortion clinic.
(and pro fessional baby killer?)

reply from: nancyu

The U.S. Constitution and SCOTUS decisions have no authority in Canada...Even if your argument that abortion is illegal here was valid, it wouldn't be applicable in this case.
Good point CP. Thanks for correcting me on that.
KaylieBee is it legal to murder people in Canada?

reply from: galen

Having the "right" doesn't make abortion "right." If she doesn't abort, she has 9 months of pregnancy to deal with, most of which will not prevent her from attending school and doing most of the things she usually does. If she really doesn't want to raise the child, or feels unable, she can adopt it out and go on with her life. On the other hand, if she aborts, the child is dead forever. A relatively brief inconvenience for her, or a permanent end for her child? The "choice" seems obvious to me...
--------------------------
i found it telling that xenatiger used the words lifelong decision in her answer...
possibly she sees the permenance in this 'choice' and realises that there is no taking back death.?

reply from: galen

speaking of which.... oh skippy care to comment on that' finland study' now?
* blinks coquettishly*

reply from: galen

'I asked God. SHE's prochoice...'
i think you may be conflicted.... none of the godess worshipers i know are prochoice...its actually quite the opposite they value ALL life...
why do you have this as your sig?

reply from: KaylieBee

The U.S. Constitution and SCOTUS decisions have no authority in Canada...Even if your argument that abortion is illegal here was valid, it wouldn't be applicable in this case.
Good point CP. Thanks for correcting me on that.
KaylieBee is it legal to murder people in Canada?
Abortion is legal, but my province is directly disobeying federal law by only allowing it up to 12 weeks and under medical conditions if many places. If I decided to go that way, I would need to make a two hour trip.
So, does that mean that the 'symptoms' I believe I have were imagination, and I really am just paranoid?

reply from: sheri

By scaryfairy's reasoning the pregnancy test would read positive before you were even pregnant. You can get a pretty good pregnancy test at some dollar stores, dollar general or family dollar, just a $1.00, they always work for me.

reply from: churchmouse

cracrat is 100% right.
It will not be easy, but then nothing in life is easy. ABortion is easy. For a lot of women it temporarily solves their probems. No one knows what lies ahead and what they will face. People change, feelings change, opinions change with age.....
I had an abortion and let me tell you, it did not bother me in the least when I got it. Over twenty years later it did. I became suicidal, and it almost broke up my marriage and my family had a hard time coping with me.
I learned about fetal devepoment, and what medical science had to say about life in the womb......and I knew in my heart I had murdered my little one.
You think its easy to live with? No. If women tell you that it doesnt bother them they are liars. Millions of woman all over the country, the world, are suffering silently because they are to afraid people, their family will find out what they did.
I will say I accepted Christ and He changed my life. I repented and He saved me and now I counsel women with a group Silent No More. We are there for women that regret their abortions and we share the saving Grace that Jesus offers.
Two wrongs never make a right kaylie. You need to take responsiblity for what you did and you will NEVER REGRET IT. If you feel you cant handle a child, then adoption might be an option for you. Give the child a chance, life. It is not the childs fault that he/she is in your womb.
Ask carole about crisis pregnancy centers........she is the expert about them here. They can really help you.
kaylie the fact that you are talking and asking for help, shows maturity.
But I have to be frank with you even though you think yourself immature. And I am telling you this, because I have been there and I care. You still have to know the truth.
I was talking to a young girl last month at a Right To Life booth at a womans expo. She shared with me that she was proud of the two abortion she had and would continue having them........she said, ya wanna know why? She said, because kids shouldnt be raising kids.
I looked at her square in the eyes and said, if kids shouldnt be raise kids, they shoudnt be having sex either. If was no fault of your childs that you got pregnant. Accidents happen. But you and your boyfriend together created a life. You want to be a biologist, GREAT !!!!!
Science is on the side of life because it says that life starts at fertilization. Did you know that the heart starts beating around 20 days!!!!!! They can detect measurable brain waves within just 6 short weeks.
A lot of woman find out they are pregnant after all this happens and they think what they are carrying is only a blob of tisssue. Science tells a different story. Go to a crisis pregnancy center they will help you and be honest. Do NOT go to an abortion clinic, they want to take your money and they will not be truthful about fetal development.
You just might be carrying a little baby inside you.
If you are then you are not the only one involved here, you carry a life....
Like sander shared with you, it can be done. You dont have to quit school and you can still be successful in life.
Abortion is never the answer. Abortion takes a life... and every woman that walks into an abortion clinic chooses to kill her unborn.
God bless you and I will pray that you are not pregnant. If you are not, then great, stop having sex and be a kid. Like concernedparent said, let this be a wake up call for the both of you.
Life starts at fertilization. You could be pregnant. Take an at home test, they are not that expensive.

reply from: galen

The U.S. Constitution and SCOTUS decisions have no authority in Canada...Even if your argument that abortion is illegal here was valid, it wouldn't be applicable in this case.
Good point CP. Thanks for correcting me on that.
KaylieBee is it legal to murder people in Canada?
Abortion is legal, but my province is directly disobeying federal law by only allowing it up to 12 weeks and under medical conditions if many places. If I decided to go that way, I would need to make a two hour trip.
So, does that mean that the 'symptoms' I believe I have were imagination, and I really am just paranoid?
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i always had physical symptoms of pregnancy by the time fetilization had occured... some women are extremly sensative to hormones... some are not it depends.. go take a test... or go to a place that can get you an ultrasound... but whatever you do go see someone in person... this board can offer you advice... but not medical advice.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

You honestly can't know if you're pregnant for sure at this point, but I do get where your coming from. I knew as soon as I was pregnant and I really can't explain how. You may just be paranoid, or your body could be responding to hormones. Take a test once you're sure you're not going to get your period this month, and then you'll have to seriously consider your options. If you don't want to be pregnant, get an abortion. If you don't mind being pregnant for nine months to help someone else, consider adoption. If you want to raise a child, keep it. No one but you should make this choice for you. Before you get too far along, tell your boyfriend and make sure he's serious about helping you out. Some guys will tell you they'll support you no matter what but once you're actually pregnant and planning on keeping it they'll run as far as they can as fast as they can.

reply from: galen

what godesss... i went to several people about this... no one that i've spoken to says you can worship the feminine and truely be pro choice...
i am actually interested in what religion you practice.
BTW acadamia.. does not get you off the hook... I teach neonatology... and i am prolife.

reply from: galen

i am not in hospital right this minute... i am home and yeah... they are all on IM right now... they are blackberring away w/ me ... its kinda cute...

reply from: galen

PS i was discharged several days ago... tx for remembering... i happen to have all the staff i need at home to monitor me... i preferr to be here as long as i possibly can.

reply from: sheri

Mary, my guess is she worships calie the goddes of death.

reply from: galen

i was asking if it was some form of Wicca though... possibly its a deluded form that we do not have here in the US that they do have in NZ...anyway i was interested.

reply from: galen

sorry i mixed you up w/ vexing... apologies...

reply from: galen

i think at work most people try to be as politically correct as possible...you tend not to get into what they really think , especially on a subject such as this one... people try not to project anything at the workplace that might make them be percieved as not a team player...I would suppose that would be especially true in your situation where grant $$ would be linked to the political climate of the time. ( especially for you because of Al Gore).

reply from: galen

hmmm
well goodnight all....time for a few zzzzz's
* yawn*

reply from: galen

and 90% of those home based tests are not that accurate...
no one listens to you so much scairy...

reply from: nancyu

The U.S. Constitution and SCOTUS decisions have no authority in Canada...Even if your argument that abortion is illegal here was valid, it wouldn't be applicable in this case.
Good point CP. Thanks for correcting me on that.
KaylieBee is it legal to murder people in Canada?
Abortion is legal in Canada.
Thanks for educating me cp, you have no idea how helpful this is. So if I want to kill a person, I just call it an abortion, and it is legal?

reply from: Skippy

Sure.
You guys have got it backwards. It isn't "woman has abortion, then goes out and crashes her car." It's "woman who routinely engages in high-risk behavior is more likely to find herself in need of abortion."
It isn't "woman has abortion, then gets depressed, and commits suicide." It's "woman with history of depression chooses risky sex and abortion out of a sense of hopelessness, rather than getting treatment for her depression."
As I'm sure all of you know, correlation does not equal causation.

reply from: nancyu

Good for your province. But I wish they would be braver and say it is illegal at any age from the moment of conception.
If you are pregnant have a baby. They're cute, and they grow up so fast, it will make your head spin. My babies are 15 and 17. Some times were tough, but I wouldn't change a thing. (except maybe have more)

reply from: galen

---------------------------------------------
sure she does... and hopefully she has enough of a brain to know that anyone who shows her THAT much attention on a forum.. especially one who is for killing things, is a real rare nutter. I'm sure the girl already knows what rescources she can go to in her area and has probably done a bit of research. She probably knows her home area much better than you do my dear. now go crawl back into you filth encrusted hole and weave more evil thoughts into that blanket that keeps you warm each night.

reply from: galen

---------------------------------------------
sure she does... and hopefully she has enough of a brain to know that anyone who shows her THAT much attention on a forum.. especially one who is for killing things, is a real rare nutter. I'm sure the girl already knows what rescources she can go to in her area and has probably done a bit of research. She probably knows her home area much better than you do my dear. now go crawl back into you filth encrusted hole and weave more evil thoughts into that blanket that keeps you warm each night.
-----------------------------------------------------
i'd like to add that if saciry fairy IS a real RN she would know that helping someone precure an abortion through unsolicited web talk is like practising in another country without a license... there for she should be very careful in what she can say.. or else risk having her license pulled and herself exposed to the world for the nut job that she is... i wonder if her doc knows what she is doing?

reply from: KaylieBee

Good for your province. But I wish they would be braver and say it is illegal at any age from the moment of conception.
If you are pregnant have a baby. They're cute, and they grow up so fast, it will make your head spin. My babies are 15 and 17. Some times were tough, but I wouldn't change a thing. (except maybe have more)
Don't you think telling me to have it because it's cute is a bit deceptive? Excuse me for being so forward and prompt, but I'm not in a good mood today. Honestly, of all reasons to have it, it's aesthetic appeal is NOT one of them!
I'm sure the constant work would far outweigh the 'cuteness' of the child. Though, I honestly don't think freshly born babies are at all cute.
All I can damnwell think about not if how the 14 year old at my school who had her kid this year had to have the skin between her vagina and anus sliced open for the thing.
I'm small, too. People usually mistake me for about 12.
And it's not as if a cesarean is much better. Slicing through muscle and crap to extract the kid...

reply from: KaylieBee

Oh, I forgot what else it was going to say.
My provinces ability to disobey federal law terrifies me, because I can imagine it expanding to other things as well. And scares the hell out of me! Provincial law should not be able to overthrow something that federal law says it can't.

reply from: QueenMay

congradulations on the baby. i know your scared now but please have your baby he/she will love you so much for it! abortion is wrong its killing a baby and you can never undo it. you will love your baby and if you can't keep it there are couples who want to adopt. if your scared you can go to a crisis pregnancy center and they'll help you and your boyfriend!

reply from: KaylieBee

By 'have it' I meant carry for about nine months, before giving birth to it.
Right now I'm feeling absolutely convinced that I'm not pregnant, and that I'm indeed crazy, the reasons being:
I'm on the pill
We used a condom
He didn't ejaculate inside of me.
Make it extremely improbable, but of course not impossible.
I asked someone this in a PM, but they didn't answer. Except in the most technical sense (XX or XY, and ignoring mutations of the sperm/egg that would create XXY and beyond) my zygote would not have a gender.
Or is it that we all start off female, which can lead to pseudohermaphrodites, when the beginnings of ovaries become testicles, but do not drop, etc.
I'm feeling very sane, and I think I may have been very depressed for the last week, over what I cannot be sure.
I'm going to say something that will make each and every one of you think I'm a horrible person, doubtlessly.
I took to hitting myself repeatedly, so much so that when I use my abdominal muscles they ache.
I don't think I'm fit to parent.

reply from: MotherForLife

Wow, you don't sound sixteen...
I agree about not just having a baby because it's 'cute', that was a rather patronising and glib comment. They can be cute but they are also bloody hard work! Motherhood is not all hugs and smiles.
Carifairy is correct about when you can test; it's too early right now for you to get an accuarte result from a home pregnancy test. I 'knew' I was pregnant within days of conception because I felt different inside but I didn't get a positive until 10 days after sex.
I wish you good luck and hope you make the decison based on your own feelings, your own gut instinct and your own beliefs. That way, whatever choice you make, you answer only to yourself.

reply from: nancyu

And you are "for life?" whose? Not the baby's apparently. An unborn child is a person. That is a fact, not merely a belief.

reply from: KaylieBee

She wasn't telling me 'hurhurhur abort abort' she was only saying that it's my decision to make, which really it is.
Originally posted by: concernedparent
Hun, please don't hurt yourself for any reason. If you're that upset, you really need to talk to an adult you trust... You need to go ahead and see a doctor as soon as possible. Are you bleeding or anything? Please care enough about yourself to at least get checked out, whether you think you're really pregnant or not. Even if you're not pregnant you may need medical attention...
I have no bleeding at all, not even any bruising.

reply from: faithman

She wasn't telling me 'hurhurhur abort abort' she was only saying that it's my decision to make, which really it is.
It may be your decision to make as to whether to murder your womb child or not, but only a scanc would choose to kill. You had the fun of inviting life into the world, what kind of choice is it to kill the child simply because you were not sincere about your invitation? You are either totally ignorant about womb life, or a totally selfish killer.

reply from: KaylieBee

Huh?
Did you honestly just throw that word at me? How low is that?
I will have an abortion if I choose, should I be pregnant. And yes I'll be killing something. But every time you sit down to eat, you've killed something, too.
What makes human life so damn pure?

reply from: AshMarie88

FYI, we all start off as male or female with XX or XY. We're not ALL female before birth, or even conception.
You have the egg in the female, ok... And then there's a sperm that will enter it and it will either contain the X or the Y chromosome. X is female, and Y is male. If an X sperm fertilizes the egg, you then, at that moment, have a FEMALE zygote/blastocyst/baby. If a Y sperm fertilizes the egg, then you, also at that moment, have a MALE zygote/blastocyst/baby.
Right at fertilization, the boy or girl's DNA is already defined. Baby A (girl) could have long blonde hair, green eyes, her dad's nose and her mom's lips. Baby B (boy) could have short black hair, blue eyes, his mom's eyes and dad's smile.
There's no questioning whether the new fertilized being is a boy or girl. No, most ultrasounds cannot detect if the child is a boy or girl yet, not really until around the 15th or so week, depending on how early the doctor can detect it. But, that's not the same thing when we're talking about fertilized eggs and their DNA.
Now I'm done with this biology lesson!

reply from: AshMarie88

I told you guys she was a fake.

reply from: AshMarie88

I said that from the very beginning lol.

reply from: Tom

"I told you guys she was a fake."
I just said it on PM to Someone (around a minute ago).
PS AshMarie, I passed up your post saying so "from the very beginning".

reply from: nancyu

If your ever in my neighborhood, stop by. I would love the opportunity to test my "legal abortion" theory.
Run along now, troll.

reply from: KaylieBee

I told you guys she was a fake.
...
Because I'm offended that she called me a *****?

reply from: KaylieBee

Oh, not I get why she had to use that mispelling.

reply from: faithman

It may be your decision to make as to whether to murder your womb child or not, but only a scanc would choose to kill. You had the fun of inviting life into the world, what kind of choice is it to kill the child simply because you were not sincere about your invitation? You are either totally ignorant about womb life, or a totally selfish killer.

reply from: AshMarie88

I didn't say those exact words, but I did say something along the lines of her being fake. On page one I said, "Could this be another janejohnson?" not vexing but close to.

reply from: Tom

I get it, janejohnson must be some suspicious user (I don't know them all, that is why I didn't take notice of it).

reply from: KaylieBee

It may be your decision to make as to whether to murder your womb child or not, but only a scanc would choose to kill. You had the fun of inviting life into the world, what kind of choice is it to kill the child simply because you were not sincere about your invitation? You are either totally ignorant about womb life, or a totally selfish killer.
Womb child? Just say fetus, baby, embryo, or one of those proper words.
Your words are incredibly disgusting, and extremely degrading to women.
A 'scanc' as you write it, is a women of lose sexual morals, which I'm sorry, hardly applies to me. I was with my boyfriend a year and a half before we had sex, how would that make me a 'scanc'?

reply from: cracrat

Because you're not in faithman's select group of 'approved' women.

reply from: KaylieBee

What makes me 'approved'?
Chaste until marriage, and then popping out inumerable children until my body gives up?

reply from: faithman

It may be your decision to make as to whether to murder your womb child or not, but only a scanc would choose to kill. You had the fun of inviting life into the world, what kind of choice is it to kill the child simply because you were not sincere about your invitation? You are either totally ignorant about womb life, or a totally selfish killer.
Womb child? Just say fetus, baby, embryo, or one of those proper words.
Your words are incredibly disgusting, and extremely degrading to women.
A 'scanc' as you write it, is a women of lose sexual morals, which I'm sorry, hardly applies to me. I was with my boyfriend a year and a half before we had sex, how would that make me a 'scanc'?
What is incredibly disgusting is the flippant way you ignore the humanity and personhood of womb children. What is degrading to women is the fact that selfish little death scancs like you would betray motherhood and advbocate killing your child. You weren't married to your boy friend, and the only thing that concerned you was making sure a womb child did not get in the way of your pleasure. Yepper, I would say you could be the poster girl ofr low life scancs that kill their womb children just because you can choose to. You are disgusting, and have exstremely degraded yourself with what you have posted here.

reply from: KaylieBee

Honestly. you people think I'm a troll, but not this jerk?
Do we have an ignore bottom? I'd rather not have this little man child throwing childish insults my way.

reply from: faithman

At least I have a voice to do so. But you would kill the voice of a child simply because you want to spread your legs to have fun, and kill anything that gets in the way of it.

reply from: Tom

Alternatively, supposing that girl is sincere (though 'bee' nick makes you think)...

reply from: KaylieBee

...But damn, I can see a band called The Death Scancs, only spelled correctly.

reply from: KaylieBee

At least I have a voice to do so. But you would kill the voice of a child simply because you want to spread your legs to have fun, and kill anything that gets in the way of it.
Troll.

reply from: faithman

And they could spread the message how stupid little death scanc girls kill their womb children simply because they are not woman enough to have them.

reply from: faithman

Thank you, CP.
Just like a little death scanc. Would rather ignore the truth when confronted by it. Of course CP would run to the rescue. Wants us to think he is pro-life, all the while playing hero to those who would kill their womb child.

reply from: galen

-------------------------------------------------
kay- if you wish to speak with someone privately PM me... i will do what i can for you within the bounds of law in your provence...
BTW be very careful of what you post here, you should know already that some are not out for your good.
If you need to verify who i am as far as this board is concerned speak w/ CP or Lukesmom by PM.

reply from: jujujellybean

i will too. She is awesome...if you need someone to talk to, Mary is awesome...

reply from: galen

ty guys ... you make me smile

reply from: Tom

All in all, ultimately, however, it seems to me that treating users as if they were sincere persons is not risky - anyway, you may at best waste some of your time. But what if this man/woman really do have problems?

reply from: galen

Good for your province. But I wish they would be braver and say it is illegal at any age from the moment of conception.
If you are pregnant have a baby. They're cute, and they grow up so fast, it will make your head spin. My babies are 15 and 17. Some times were tough, but I wouldn't change a thing. (except maybe have more)
Don't you think telling me to have it because it's cute is a bit deceptive? Excuse me for being so forward and prompt, but I'm not in a good mood today. Honestly, of all reasons to have it, it's aesthetic appeal is NOT one of them!
I'm sure the constant work would far outweigh the 'cuteness' of the child. Though, I honestly don't think freshly born babies are at all cute.
All I can damnwell think about not if how the 14 year old at my school who had her kid this year had to have the skin between her vagina and anus sliced open for the thing.
I'm small, too. People usually mistake me for about 12.
-----------------------------------------
Ok why don't you take a few deep breaths...an episiotomy is n ot the end of the world... they are used to prevent you from tearing and they are a whole lot better than tearing down in that area... easier to fix. But it seems to me that you are WAY ahead of yourself here as you do not know if you are pregnant yet.
But sense you brought up this subject...
I was raped as my first sexual experience... by several men. I became pregnant and decided to have the child. ( he's almost 18 now and the sweetest man)
anyway.. the baby that they swore i would deliver at 6-7 lbs was actually almost 11 ( ultrasound was REALLY new then ) I had gone to all the classes on the bradley method of birth ( quiet dimmness.. possibly water) so it was rather traumatic for me to have to push out this child who then became stuck ( shoulder dystocia) and subsequently have myself torn by the pushing ( believe me at the time your vaginal/ anal area is so numb from the pressure you do not feel a thing) I had to have a stage 4 repair done in the OR after he was born. I was sore for a few days... the itching from the healing was intense... and within a few years... i completely forgot the whole thing was any diffrent... if my husband looks carefully he can make out the scar... but it makes NO diffrence in out married life and none healthwise for me. I can tell you that if done right this type of repair is 99% effective at what it is designed for.
There are also MANY diffrent things that you and your BF can do to prepare the area to stretch so that you don't tear... i can not remember the last time one of the ladies i work with had a major tear... and the last delivery i attended was a 10 lb 6 oz boy whose mom had no tear... so your height is not the end of the world. in fact Its your pelvic outlet and your ability to stretch your skin that will be the answer to the problem... and mother nature and her hormones will help a LOT with that.
so calm yourself down and lets wait untill you know if your pregnant before you jump ahead of yourself.

reply from: KaylieBee

For the time being I'm feeling convinced that I'm not pregnany.
With the help of my memories of the Probability Unit of my Geo + Apps class, I have a 0.00024% chance of being pregnant.
That's 2.4/1,000,000
I feel calm for the time being.

reply from: galen

good... and if you need help come back here and PM me.

reply from: AshMarie88

You're probably not and I'm glad. No more babies need to die.

reply from: KaylieBee

Sorry, but I watched a few birthing videos. Seeing the split just terrified me more than anything I've ever seen, and I've seen some HORRRIBLE pictures on this broad Internet.
That's absolutely horrible, and you're incredibly brave. It's horrible that things like that have to happen.
But during healing, how do you prevent infection? I can't imagine...bathroom functions not creating some sort of infection.
It just honestly scared me. Sorry.

reply from: galen

Thank you, CP.
Just like a little death scanc. Would rather ignore the truth when confronted by it. Of course CP would run to the rescue. Wants us to think he is pro-life, all the while playing hero to those who would kill their womb child.
----------------------
you know i never heard this girl say she WOULD have an abortion... she is no different than TBH was at this point... so stuff a sock on it FM... or be nice.

reply from: KaylieBee

if I was pregnant, I would be extremely on the fence about it (however awkward that sentence would be. I would be divided between abortion and adoption, with an alternating preference.
Who is TBH?
And it's such an obvious troll-move to even consider that CP may not be pro-life. IIRC, he said that it wouldn't even be a choice to abort, in his opinion.
(CP is male, right?)

reply from: galen

Sorry, but I watched a few birthing videos. Seeing the split just terrified me more than anything I've ever seen, and I've seen some HORRRIBLE pictures on this broad Internet.
That's absolutely horrible, and you're incredibly brave. It's horrible that things like that have to happen.
But during healing, how do you prevent infection? I can't imagine...bathroom functions not creating some sort of infection.
It just honestly scared me. Sorry.
---------------------------------------------
Infection control... just suseing a spitz bath, water pick or a bidet will help keep the area clean... also baby wipes ( don't laugh)
for the rest of it... if or when you need this help i can give you all the gory details of preparing the area for birth over PM ... there are also lots of good books on the subject that you and he can study... and if the worst happens and he can not or will not help with this you can do all of them yourself... its just much more fun with your partner.
Its ok to be a bit scared ... i don't know anyone who is 100% OK with everything thier first pregnancy no matter what they tell you.
but as of yet you are not pregnant that we know of.

reply from: AshMarie88

LOL! Try watching a LIVE birth sometime, like actually being in the room. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to watch my cousin give birth to her second son (whom she almost aborted) and it was amazing. Everything went smoothly. Not to say it never happens, but I'm sure it's more rare than most births!
But until you get the opportunity to see a birth live in person, you really can't say what birth is like.

reply from: cracrat

teddybearhamster. She came here with a whole lot of baggage, vehemently pro-choice, a few weeks ago. Faithman astounded us all by talking to her in a civil fashion and helped her to reallign her views. She's ever so pro-adoption now.

reply from: KaylieBee

No, of course not, but that's true for everything, isn't it?
I've never seen the ghost of a little Spanish Orphan, but I can certainly say they scare the hell out of me.
All the birth videos I found had the sound muted, or had really weird music dubbed over. :/
There was one from the sixties, though, without the sound muted, with the woman completely naked who, for some reason, wasn't experiencing any sort of pain. :/ Like, at all. She was about as subdued as anything could ever be...

reply from: KaylieBee

teddybearhamster. She came here with a whole lot of baggage, vehemently pro-choice, a few weeks ago. Faithman astounded us all by talking to her in a civil fashion and helped her to reallign her views. She's ever so pro-adoption now.
You know, it gets a bit sad when trolls create multiple characters.
Also, there are people who are anti-adoption?

reply from: galen

-------------------------------
TBH was a girl who was pregnant and in a bad relationship and confused and frightened ... kinda like you except for the relationship part...
she is keeping her baby.
there have also been several other women on this board and thier parents too who have for better or worse chosen to have thier children....some adopt out some do not. all came to realise that the child has as much right to live as they did to choose. 9 mo may seem like a lifetime when you are young, but death is permenant and while you can make up time lost at school or work or whatever... you can not take back death. If you do not have the ability to parent the child i can think of at least 100 couples i know just in my area willing to adopt him/ her... and you do not have to worry about guilt later on...especially if you decide to be a mom later in life. you never know what type of curve balls mother nature can throw... and the baby you kill may be the only chance you get to be a mom... then you have to wait for a baby to be given up for adoption etc. ( i know a lot of nice sayings right?.. but they are true)

reply from: faithman

teddybearhamster. She came here with a whole lot of baggage, vehemently pro-choice, a few weeks ago. Faithman astounded us all by talking to her in a civil fashion and helped her to reallign her views. She's ever so pro-adoption now.
Quit misrepresenting me. Go back and look, and you will see that she was not spared the scanc monicure. It was God's Spirit that brought her to truth, and had very little to do with me at all.

reply from: galen

but the word scanc didn't help did it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yPIC-o1O3k

reply from: galen

-------------------------------
some people do not have the same pain response that others do... some women get relief from epidurals... and some use other methods such as self hypnosis. several of the ladies i have worked with recently ( i think 4 of them) have tried the self hypnosis rout... three suceeded with 1 needing a c-section when the baby had a knot in its cord wich caused the heartbeat to fall.
most5 of the time a woman can get more than enough pain relief... its kind of a personal preferance to how much or what kind you recieve or even if you use any at all.

reply from: faithman

I don't think it hurt either.

reply from: jujujellybean

really? well, I do, and I wouldn't want to be called a scanc either. Sheesh...you don't need to be so mean.

reply from: faithman

Then don't act or post like one and you have no worries. And just what did I hurt? You are entitled to your stupid opinion, but it don't make it any less stupid.

reply from: galen

no it just shows yur own lack of intellegence...keep your GOB shut FM...then we won't know how ignorant you are.

reply from: faithman

I have enough intelegence to know that womb children are persons. I have enough intelegence to know that sorry little death scancs should be stopped from killing their children. I have enough intelegence to know that if it is just to use force to stop evil agression against a born child the same should be true for the womb child. I have enough intelegence to know that most of what calls itself pro-life has it's own enterest above that of the womb child, and care more about money and power than actually stopping abortion on demand. I have enough intelegence to know that many on this forum spend more time defending the killers more than the ones that are killed. The def on scanc is a woman with bab morales. To lay around with one's BF and then think it right to kill the child it produced is good morales? Scanc fits just fine, and is an accurate discription in this case. If the scanc don't like it, then maybe she should quit acting like one.

reply from: galen

i hope youdo not have teenagers.... you would have warped them beyond belief by now..
She never said she would abort... she said she is trying to find help... and yu screaming at her is NOT helping... unless of course you WANT her to kill her baby.... if she is pregnant....you want THAT on your conscience?

reply from: KaylieBee

I unignored faithman.
I don't mean to be offensive, just as I'm so sure he doesn't, but is English his first language? Or even his second?

reply from: galen

yes it is his first... and as far as i've been able to determine his only language...

reply from: KaylieBee

I have a lot of trouble reading his posts...
Someone shouldn't talk about intelligence if they cannot spell it...

reply from: galen

i have an excuse... i had a brain tumour removed in Feb.....
my spelling is aweful and spell check will not work on my laptop for some reason...
besides i think FM enjoys being ignorant... he has been this way for years. You either love him or hate him... sometimes i feel both.

reply from: KaylieBee

I don't think I could ever stand anyone who so happily throws around derogatory terms.

reply from: galen

he does grow on you at times...kinda like a mole you hate but would miss if it were gone..
you seem to be in a little bit better space... how r u?

reply from: faithman

And I don't think I could ever stand a little scanc who advocates the slaughter of womb children. So we are even.

reply from: KaylieBee

I'd think I'd be happier to remove the mole. Sometimes they're cancerous, aren't they? Horrible things, moles...
I'm quite well. =) Am excited for my boyfriend's Prom tomorrow.

reply from: galen

Proms are cool... prom on a monday though?
... are you on year round school?

reply from: KaylieBee

No, classes finished on sixth, then there was a week of exams. Prom tomorrow, Graduation on the 18th.

reply from: galen

ahhh
i think the best prom i went to was my senior prom... we all went stag.. had a limo etc... it was much fun. Imagine a group of Goth teen girls all decked out back in the eighties and you'll get the pic. LOL when i think about it i smile.
my sons are SOOOOO not into the prom thing... they would rather go camping with thier friends on the beach in florida... than spend the $$ on a dance.

reply from: KaylieBee

I'm not the sort for the outdoors. I burn in under an hour, and I'm allergic to fly bites. I do like swimming, but in clean indoor things. The thought of all the crap that lives in the ocean swimming around and touching me is very disgusting. :/
I'm probably more excited for getting for stay at my boyfriend's afterwards. =) I'm bringing my pokemon cards!

reply from: galen

lol... have you tried magic yet?

reply from: lukesmom

Welcome Kay, many years ago (don't want to age myself too much ) I remember being afraid I was PG. I had the breast tenderness and would even be late. Breast tenderness could also be a sign your period is going to start and anxiety can cause your period to be late. Later after I was married and trying to get PG, I would have the same symptoms and "imagined" myself pregnant many times. Not unusual in women having fertility problems.
BTW, Mary is right about "tearing" during childbirth. I have been pregnant 6 times and have delivered 4 full term, large babies. I have torn and had epesiotomies (sp?, I am a horrible speller too!) and never once felt the tear or the cut due to the area being "numb" from the pressure of the baby's head. I also never had the area become infected and have never heard of that happening in other moms I know. Childbirth IS scary esp with your first when you are facing the unknown. I hope and pray you find you are not PG as you are now suspecting and I also hope you are more careful in the future altho only abstenence is 100% effective in preventing a pregnancy.

reply from: nancyu

LOL! Try watching a LIVE birth sometime, like actually being in the room. A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to watch my cousin give birth to her second son (whom she almost aborted) and it was amazing. Everything went smoothly. Not to say it never happens, but I'm sure it's more rare than most births!
But until you get the opportunity to see a birth live in person, you really can't say what birth is like.
Seeing one birth won't say what birth is like either. Like babies, each one is different.

reply from: jujujellybean

Then don't act or post like one and you have no worries. And just what did I hurt? You are entitled to your stupid opinion, but it don't make it any less stupid.
You are calling a new poster here a scanc when you don't even know her. How rude is that? You are hurting a young girl's feelings I am sure; if you were called that name would YOU be offended? Geez fman you really need to get over your rudeness, esp when you don't even know them.

reply from: faithman

Then don't act or post like one and you have no worries. And just what did I hurt? You are entitled to your stupid opinion, but it don't make it any less stupid.
You are calling a new poster here a scanc when you don't even know her. How rude is that? You are hurting a young girl's feelings I am sure; if you were called that name would YOU be offended? Geez fman you really need to get over your rudeness, esp when you don't even know them.
I replied to the post that she would kill the child she made by spreading her legs for a man she eas not married too, and was only having sex for the pleasure of it. If that aint scancy behavior what is? I think it is rude to kill womb children. When are you going to start to actually defend the womb child insted of those who advocate their slaughter?

reply from: nancyu

Then don't act or post like one and you have no worries. And just what did I hurt? You are entitled to your stupid opinion, but it don't make it any less stupid.
You are calling a new poster here a scanc when you don't even know her. How rude is that? You are hurting a young girl's feelings I am sure; if you were called that name would YOU be offended? Geez fman you really need to get over your rudeness, esp when you don't even know them.
I replied to the post that she would kill the child she made by spreading her legs for a man she eas not married too, and was only having sex for the pleasure of it. If that aint scancy behavior what is? I think it is rude to kill womb children. When are you going to start to actually defend the womb child insted of those who advocate their slaughter?
She definitely deserves the title.

reply from: galen

no she does not...no more than you deserve to be called a babykiller for using BCP.

reply from: churchmouse

It is a child that is in the womb. That is a fact. You spin it any which way you wish, but it is a human being and it lives in the womb. It did not just appear by accident, it was invited in by you. You allowed the sperm into your body. And unless you were raped, you did it of your own free will. You created the life inside you. You use any word you want to describe this life.......the facts will not change. It is a life.
Sometimes words hurt. Maybe "scanc' was not an appropriate term for you and faithman should not have said this,......but you did have pre-marital sex and this act might have gotten you into some trouble. Nevertheless, if you are old enough to have sex, you certainly should be old enough to stand up to the plate and face the consequence of your actions.
I have no idea if you are here simply to play around or you want serious help or advise. I am not sure how many teenagers your age would hop on a pro-life debate board for guidance, but you are here for some reason. Nevertheless I do not think the truth ever hurts and there are many here that know the truth about abortion.
Well you could continue having sex with one guy or multiple partners until you do get married and take the chance of getting various STD's, maybe AIDS that would end your life. You could also abort every time you get pregnant, then face infertility and a higher risk of breast cancer when you get older. You could do all sorts of things couldnt you?
No womans body gives out after they give birth. Its not that strenous an act. It is a very natural act. Dealing with teenagers is a lot more stressfull, anyone will tell you that. LOL
So galen how would she be able to know she could trust you? Or CP or Lukesmom. What you are all trustworthy and no one else is? LOL
I think if she is for real........there are places that she could go to for help. She found this place didnt she? LOL
Point them out to her. No personal information need be exchanged to help someone. She is a minor. Or does that not matter? You are so worried about her being able to trust people here.......how about trusting her?
If she is having sex.......I dont believe that she doesnt also have friends that are having sex that couldnt guide her where to do. Kids are not stupid.
Well kaylie....are you without grammatical error? I am not. I believe you said these things......correct me if I am wrong.
"For the time being I'm feeling convinced that I'm not pregnany." pregnany?
"if I was pregnant, I would be extremely on the fence about it (however awkward that sentence would be. I would be divided between abortion and adoption, with an alternating preference."
This makes sense?
"Oh, not I get why she had to use that mispelling."
"Do we have an ignore bottom? I'd rather not have this little man child throwing childish insults my way. "
A what? A little man?
You talk about intelligence.
May I remind you the position you are in right now, not knowing if you are pregnant or not. Were your actions intelligent?
You know you might be for real and then you might not be. I thought you were for real at first, however after reading your last twenty posts....I'm not so convinced anymore. Of course you dont want to be called names.....I dont like it either, and I dont think namecalling has a place in debates. But you also called faithman a jerk. Do you think its wrong for others to call names, but you can do it and it should be acceptable?

I dont know about you..........sorry.

reply from: Beprolifewithme

It is a child that is in the womb. That is a fact. You spin it any which way you wish, but it is a human being and it lives in the womb. It did not just appear by accident, it was invited in by you. You allowed the sperm into your body. And unless you were raped, you did it of your own free will. You created the life inside you. You use any word you want to describe this life.......the facts will not change. It is a life.
Sometimes words hurt. Maybe "scanc' was not an appropriate term for you and faithman should not have said this,......but you did have pre-marital sex and this act might have gotten you into some trouble. Nevertheless, if you are old enough to have sex, you certainly should be old enough to stand up to the plate and face the consequence of your actions.
I have no idea if you are here simply to play around or you want serious help or advise. I am not sure how many teenagers your age would hop on a pro-life debate board for guidance, but you are here for some reason. Nevertheless I do not think the truth ever hurts and there are many here that know the truth about abortion.
Well you could continue having sex with one guy or multiple partners until you do get married and take the chance of getting various STD's, maybe AIDS that would end your life. You could also abort every time you get pregnant, then face infertility and a higher risk of breast cancer when you get older. You could do all sorts of things couldnt you?
No womans body gives out after they give birth. Its not that strenous an act. It is a very natural act. Dealing with teenagers is a lot more stressfull, anyone will tell you that. LOL
So galen how would she be able to know she could trust you? Or CP or Lukesmom. What you are all trustworthy and no one else is? LOL
I think if she is for real........there are places that she could go to for help. She found this place didnt she? LOL
Point them out to her. No personal information need be exchanged to help someone. She is a minor. Or does that not matter? You are so worried about her being able to trust people here.......how about trusting her?
If she is having sex.......I dont believe that she doesnt also have friends that are having sex that couldnt guide her where to do. Kids are not stupid.
Well kaylie....are you without grammatical error? I am not. I believe you said these things......correct me if I am wrong.
"For the time being I'm feeling convinced that I'm not pregnany." pregnany?
"if I was pregnant, I would be extremely on the fence about it (however awkward that sentence would be. I would be divided between abortion and adoption, with an alternating preference."
This makes sense?
"Oh, not I get why she had to use that mispelling."
"Do we have an ignore bottom? I'd rather not have this little man child throwing childish insults my way. "
A what? A little man?
You talk about intelligence.
May I remind you the position you are in right now, not knowing if you are pregnant or not. Were your actions intelligent?
You know you might be for real and then you might not be. I thought you were for real at first, however after reading your last twenty posts....I'm not so convinced anymore. Of course you dont want to be called names.....I dont like it either, and I dont think namecalling has a place in debates. But you also called faithman a jerk. Do you think its wrong for others to call names, but you can do it and it should be acceptable?

I dont know about you..........sorry.
GOOD post!! I agree with you churchmouse!! We aren't showing our true christian spirit, I knowI don't either sometimes.....

reply from: faithman

I could really care less what any of you think. My loyalty is to the womb child, not to baby killing death scancs. Whether you believe that to be real or not is of no concern to me.

reply from: xnavy

kaylie, my first pregnancy was unplanned and it was scarey because i was in japan, serveing in the navy, that child is now in college.
yes it was hard being a single parent, i lived through it.

reply from: faithman

I find the bolded part interesting, as you advocated not using condoms because they 'reduce pleasure'.
Pleasure is fine when it is in the marriage bed. No condoms or pills needed.

reply from: faithman

Funny how a piece of paper suddenly makes pleasurable sex okay.
You'll never realise how ridiculous you are; but that's fine.
Every forum needs a guy like you to be bottom of the pecking order.
The paper is not what makes the difference, it is the intent behind it. And if being at the top means to be a baby killing sexual pervert slime bag punk like you, the bottom is just fine.

reply from: galen

remind me churchmouse... how long have you been on this forum.... i use people that are trustworth to vouch for me... and guess what...YOU are not one of them... maybe in a few years.
I think i have enough training to help this girl contact the help she needs in her area....
I also do not go around shooting off my mouth at people without knowing about what i speak.

reply from: jujujellybean

Oh galen I don't think he was talking about you! I am pretty sure it was Fman....because I don't know one person who wouldn't be proud of your efforts...I HOPE he wasn't talking about you...CP help us out?

reply from: galen

no i do not think he was talking about me... i am just sad at that whole mess...

reply from: churchmouse

I am not questioning whether you are real or not faithman, I question whether this girl is really going through all this or not.
I am curious however if you are a Christian, are you?
I still don't like namecalling sorry. Someone might make an excellent point, but when vulgarities are added, it weakens the argument.
xnavy you did the right thing......and today I bet you are blessed by your decision.
If you believe in God it does make a difference because God says sex should ONLY be enjoyed in the marriage bed. Marriage is more than a piece of paper, it is a covenent between the two married people and God.

When you say things like you just did....it makes you no better.
I did not say what I did to imply you were dangerous or unkind. But the internet can be a dangerous place and there are dangerous people that prey on kids on here. She IS A MINOR for crying out loud. People could know eachother for years and not really know someone. You are not her parent, nor am I. We can offer advice but to go further with a minor........well to me is not a good idea. You do what you want. I did not mean it in a bad way. Your so defensive.
So because I am new here, I have to walk around on pins and needles just because I do not have 6,000 posts? What, you guys have a seniority list or something I do not know about? LOL

reply from: galen

I am not questioning whether you are real or not faithman, I question whether this girl is really going through all this or not.
I am curious however if you are a Christian, are you?
I still don't like namecalling sorry. Someone might make an excellent point, but when vulgarities are added, it weakens the argument.
xnavy you did the right thing......and today I bet you are blessed by your decision.
If you believe in God it does make a difference because God says sex should ONLY be enjoyed in the marriage bed. Marriage is more than a piece of paper, it is a covenent between the two married people and God.

When you say things like you just did....it makes you no better.
I did not say what I did to imply you were dangerous or unkind. But the internet can be a dangerous place and there are dangerous people that prey on kids on here. She IS A MINOR for crying out loud. People could know eachother for years and not really know someone. You are not her parent, nor am I. We can offer advice but to go further with a minor........well to me is not a good idea. You do what you want. I did not mean it in a bad way. Your so defensive.
So because I am new here, I have to walk around on pins and needles just because I do not have 6,000 posts? What, you guys have a seniority list or something I do not know about? LOL
no good manners dictates that you get to know whom is speaking before you make pronouncements or jugements...
you are new here... you still do not know of whom you speak. BTW i am a health professional.. and she can vouch for me in her own way if need be. I am quite willing to give my credentials to her MD.
I am defensive by nature especially when snide little comments are injected into sermons that run half a page.

reply from: churchmouse

Which thread and what question? I'll go back and answer it or ask me here.
I respond to many threads sorry i missed it. I dont run. What is it?
You keep bumping? ?????????????
And you dont make judgements about new people that come here? LOL Pleaze.
I did not say that you were unsafe or criminal.
Do you know me? You've criticized me more than a few times over issues. Is that fair? If you say I have to wait to judge your words, then isnt it fair you wait to judge mine? Am I supposed to say nothing, or ask permission?
You say you are a health professional. And if you are I hope you have more tact in your professional life than you have here. Anyone can be anything on the internet. I have seen it all. You should know then that when you are dealing with a minor it is different.
Sermons? Because I share opinions about a topic they are sermons. Hey do you own this cite? Are you BMOC here? I mean should I raise my hand so that you can call on me?
I thought this was a PUBLIC FORUM, a place where people of all faiths could share ideas? I didnt know that there was a pecking order here. I know I am new, so what? If I dont know the geneology of everyone here, I cant help it. Do we need to know all that stuff to share our opinions? I have met some really nice people who have been super, they said nothing about me kissing anyones fanny.......to be accepted.
If that is what we have to do here this place is not for me. I am sure many here would vouch for you, that is great. But I do not know you. I respond honestly to what I read.
I meant no disrespect over your credentials, so believe what you want to.......nothing I can do about it.

reply from: galen

Which thread and what question? I'll go back and answer it or ask me here.
I respond to many threads sorry i missed it. I dont run. What is it?
You keep bumping? ?????????????
And you dont make judgements about new people that come here? LOL Pleaze.
I did not say that you were unsafe or criminal.
Do you know me? You've criticized me more than a few times over issues. Is that fair? If you say I have to wait to judge your words, then isnt it fair you wait to judge mine? Am I supposed to say nothing, or ask permission?
You say you are a health professional. And if you are I hope you have more tact in your professional life than you have here. Anyone can be anything on the internet. I have seen it all. You should know then that when you are dealing with a minor it is different.
Sermons? Because I share opinions about a topic they are sermons. Hey do you own this cite? Are you BMOC here? I mean should I raise my hand so that you can call on me?
I thought this was a PUBLIC FORUM, a place where people of all faiths could share ideas? I didnt know that there was a pecking order here. I know I am new, so what? If I dont know the geneology of everyone here, I cant help it. Do we need to know all that stuff to share our opinions? I have met some really nice people who have been super, they said nothing about me kissing anyones fanny.......to be accepted.
If that is what we have to do here this place is not for me. I am sure many here would vouch for you, that is great. But I do not know you. I respond honestly to what I read.
I meant no disrespect over your credentials, so believe what you want to.......nothing I can do about it.
_____________________________________________________________
so why be preachy to me...? i know how to deal with minors..
and yes i know the canadian laws... we have had quite a few dealings with canadians.
sorry if you fell offended but you comeoff to me like some towering scolding schoolmarm...and i think that in a public forum you would be able to understand that the way you speak is generally hard to translate into words... so if i read you wrong i am sorry, but i do have to go on what i see and what and how you say it.
and again if you came in and listened a bit you might have known that.

reply from: churchmouse

I'll go back and look.
I meant no disrespect galen. You are an adult and of course you can do whatever you want to do.
But this is the internet and I have seen some pretty bad things happen to trusting people. You even acknowledged this when you said this. "BTW be very careful of what you post here, you should know already that some are not out for your good"
People can be anything they want on here. And unless you know a person personally the truth sometimes is not known.
I have been debating on the internet since 1998. I am 52 year old, so I am no spring chicken. I am not stupid. I dont like to see people get hurt and like I said, I have seen it happen time and time again. I have even seen the FBI go to someones house over the content on one debate site.
If I sounded preachy sorry, I stand up for what I believe to be the truth, just like you do.

reply from: KaylieBee

It is a child that is in the womb. That is a fact. You spin it any which way you wish, but it is a human being and it lives in the womb. It did not just appear by accident, it was invited in by you. You allowed the sperm into your body. And unless you were raped, you did it of your own free will. You created the life inside you. You use any word you want to describe this life.......the facts will not change. It is a life.
That also doesn't change the fact that we have plenty of words to describe the same thing, so there's no reason to create new ones. It would be like referring to a knife as a meat cutter.
Not to mention, 'womb children' just sounds so horribly sci-fi, or like a d-horror film. Hell, that one abortion porn/horror I saw probably should have had a title like that...
So? I could have maritial sex and still be in this situation. If I were this age, married, and possibly pregnant, I still would hopefully have the same fears. Or am I to give up everything like my mother and become a slave for some jerk?
Today marriage is hardly the commitment it was in the Victorian Era. People can get married in a drive-through, and then have the marriage ended again whenever they please (with a plethora of paper work...).
Well you could continue having sex with one guy or multiple partners until you do get married and take the chance of getting various STD's, maybe AIDS that would end your life. You could also abort every time you get pregnant, then face infertility and a higher risk of breast cancer when you get older. You could do all sorts of things couldnt you?
being with one guy wouldn't necessarily prevent me from getting STIs, or AIDS. There's no way to EVER know how faithful someone is going to be, regardless of what you think you know.
'Love' can come to an end, just like any other emotion, and develop into anything. Think of people whose 'happy' marriage ended in a jealous murder.
Infertility hardly scares me, and I hardly believe the abortion=higher chance of breast cancer horror story.
Hence the word innumerable. Even a straw can break a camels back, if it's piled on top of enough crap.
Well kaylie....are you without grammatical error? I am not. I believe you said these things......correct me if I am wrong.
Technically, not one of the instances you pointed out were grammatical, rather they were misspellings.
A typo, which was not repeatedly made within the same paragraph.
I forgot to close the bracket. I corrected it in bold, and replaced 'would' with 'may'. If you still can't figure it out, I can't help you. After all, I stated myself that the wording was awkward.
Again, a typo. I haven't repeated written 'now' as 'not'.
No, a little man-child. Meaning, an adult who behaves in a childish manor. A disgustingly childish manor.
Button was probably misspelled as bottom because I was thinking about how it's usually around the bottom of the post.
I consider them neither intelligent nor unintelligent. I had sex with someone I love and care about. Regardless of your opinions, that is something positive to me.
I should hope I would know whether or not I am legitimate.
Jerk is slang for rude, or obnoxious. A far more polite term than others for it.
Scanc, however, is a derogatory term for women which implies that she is soiled and horrible for engaging in sexual activity of her own free will. Which is funny, considering the human sex organs were designed in such a way that we get far more enjoyment from it than almost any other species. (think cats)
If we were intended to only ever have sex for children, things like the clitoris probably wouldn't exist.

reply from: faithman

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reply from: galen

good for you kaliebee

reply from: faithman

Good for you? So now we are going to glorify being a slut?

reply from: galen

no i am going to glorify a young woman... who seems to have learned a lesson standing up to a bully.

reply from: churchmouse

Well you just are not afraid of anything are you. How old are you again, 16? You haven't even begun to live yet. As you get older, you will see that things are not always what you want or think they should be. Eventually you will see friends and family die of diseases, illnesses. Then you relate what they were going through to your own health. "If only I had taken that precaution, or if only I had listen to that doctor....." Just remember the things you do a a young adult can affect the rest of your life.
Kids never think anything bad will happen to them, that they will live forever.
If you are with one person, and you do not have sex with anyone else, how can you get an STD? There are more ways than just sex to show love for someone Kaylie. Dont you think at your age, you should find other ways?
I just don't get when people refuse to educate themselves about something. Like it or not there might be a direct connection. The top cancer centers around the country are doing research.
Did you know that when my mother started smoking in the late 40's they didn't know that cigarettes caused cancer? Pregnant women smoked. How quickly we found out, and after more research, it was dangerous. How many drugs come on the market that they take off later because they really are dangerous. Never say never.
LOL Whatever
Thats great that you love him. But that love might have gotten you into a terrible situation. Because if you would choose abortion.......THAT IS NOT POSITIVE. Abortion is NEVER POSTITVE. For whatever reason, you would be killing a living human being, a PERSON.
How could this ever, even in your own little world be positive? A sex act even though done with love can be wrong.
Sex is wonderful and should be done by married adults that are mature enough to know what they are doing. Sex should NOT BE FOR CHILDREN.
Oh please. Obviously you are not Christian, so what I am going to say will probably not make sense.
God intented sex to ONLY BE FOR MARRIED COUPLES, ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN. Marriage is the single most important relationship in this life beyond the relationship with God. He created sex as a gift to married couples. Sex is meant to be an intimate expression of love between a couple and their relationship with God.
"Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral." Hebrews 13:4
"Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband." 1 Corinthians 7:2
"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." Genesis 2:24
"Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth." Malachi 2:15
"But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one." Mark 10:6-8
"It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God." 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5
If done like God commands, no one gets hurt.

reply from: KaylieBee

LOL.
Why should I bother responding to you when you're too stupid to see that I don't care about religious bull?

reply from: churchmouse

That is obvious because of the situation you have got yourself in.
I am to stupid? LOL
Who thinks she might be pregnant here kaylie?
I was hoping you were a Christian. I know you will probably find this offensive, because you are so defensive and obviously think God is a joke........but I will continue to pray for you. I hope if your pregnant you choose to give your child life.

reply from: faithman

That is obvious because of the situation you have got yourself in.
I am to stupid? LOL
Who thinks she might be pregnant here kaylie?
I was hoping you were a Christian. I know you will probably find this offensive, because you are so defensive and obviously think God is a joke........but I will continue to pray for you. I hope if your pregnant you choose to give your child life.
If you know she will find it offensive, why not just pray for her and keep it to yourself? Is there a reason you need everyone to know? You see, this is the kind of thing I was talking about. This was not your "Christian duty." This was self serving...The last sentence just seems to be there to throw people off, when it was the only part that was necessary. The rest was all shyte.
You are the most self serving punk on the forum. It does not suprise me that such a dumb ass would see everything else in that light. SSSSSOOOOO is it your humanist duty to put down every christian post on the forum with blatantly stupid crap?

reply from: cracrat

Yes, just in case you Christians get anymore big ideas to "help" the world become more like you.

reply from: faithman

Yes, just in case you Christians get anymore big ideas to "help" the world become more like you.
It would be better than becoming like you. Women and children would be valued and protected, and the medical sector that was started by christians would return to sanity. Most of the social ills of the world can be traced directly to secular humanism. The only ones who are trying to clean up your mess are Christians.

reply from: cracrat

Yes, just in case you Christians get anymore big ideas to "help" the world become more like you.
It would be better than becoming like you. Women and children would be valued and protected
Really? What would be so bad about people being a bit more like me? What social ills have I caused? What evidence do you have that I don't value women and children?

reply from: faithman

Yes, just in case you Christians get anymore big ideas to "help" the world become more like you.
It would be better than becoming like you. Women and children would be valued and protected
Really? What would be so bad about people being a bit more like me? What social ills have I caused? What evidence do you have that I don't value women and children?
It is your belief system that has killed more people, impoverished more families, and oppressed liberty than any other. The evidence is overwhelming. Just look at russia, china, vietnam, and any other state that yields itself to the secular humanist onslot. Margret sanger was a humanist. The whole abortion movement is based on secular humanist foundations. Hitler was a humanist and based his riech on evolution. You may not have directly caused them, but you sure suport them.

reply from: cracrat

So because I'm a humanist I support all that? Which presumably means as a Christian you support all this:
"All sects of heretics are condemned and various punishments are appointed for them and their accomplices."
--Pope Alexander IV (1254-61)
As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]
Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic
neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.
[WW183]
Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.
From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]
15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
[MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]
Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
[SH95]
Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore" had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."
[SH244]
References:
[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
[DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
[EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
[EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
[HA] Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the
Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.
[KM] Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in
Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.
# H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
[MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.
[MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
[NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic
Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
[S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
[SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
[SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
[TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.
[TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
[WW] H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973. (This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:
N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.
(Thanks CP for the research I just shamelessly plagerised! )

reply from: faithman

So because I'm a humanist I support all that? Which presumably means as a Christian you support all this:
"All sects of heretics are condemned and various punishments are appointed for them and their accomplices."
--Pope Alexander IV (1254-61)
As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]
Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Number of victims unknown. [DO30]
16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then Turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
Until January 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then Turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women and children) killed.
[WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (Jewish, Muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude."
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]
Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
The Albigensians (Cathars) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (the greatest single mass murderer prior to the Nazi era) in 1209. Beziérs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Number of victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic
neighbors and friends) estimated between 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
Subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324.
[WW183]
Estimated one million victims (Cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada, a former Dominican friar, allegedly was responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
Michael Sattler, leader of a baptist community, was burned at the stake in Rottenburg, Germany, May 20, 1527. Several days later his wife and other follwers were also executed. [KM]
University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Thomas Aikenhead, a twenty-year-old scottish student of Edinburgh University, was hanged for atheism and blasphemy.
From the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
In the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged.
[WV]
15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. [DO31]
Between 5000 and 6000 Protestants were drowned by Spanish Catholic Troops, "a disaster the burghers of Emden first realized when several thousand broad-brimmed Dutch hats floated by." [SH216]
1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians.Number of Jews slain unknown.
In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492.
[MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain.
[DO43]
Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and Spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:
"The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
"And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other Spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
"When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead."
[SH95]
Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow Englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no
choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War." The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
"Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by Spanish methods of the time)
In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
"Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
Like today, lying was morally acceptable to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about
30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore" had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'."
[SH244]
References:
[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krähte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962.
[DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.
[EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985.
[EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977.
[HA] Hunter, M., Wootton, D., Atheism from the Reformation to the
Enlightenment, Oxford 1992.
[KM] Schröder-Kappus, E., Wagner, W., Michael Sattler. Ein Märtyrer in
Rottenburg, Tübingen, TVT Media 1992.
# H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961.
[MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People.
[MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
[NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic
Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992.
[S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00.
[SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.
[SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996.
[TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676.
[TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980.
[WW] H.Wollschläger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zürich 1973. (This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:
N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56.
(Thanks CP for the research I just shamelessly plagerised! )
You are talking ancient history, and besides the number of people slain in mordern times by humanist far out number those killed by christians in their entire history. 50 million babies alone in america. as many as 100 million born persons in china and that don't include the forced baby killings. 6 million jews by the nazis, as well as another 100 million or so by the war they caused. Humanist are far more blood thirsty and opressive than Christians ever have been.

reply from: galen

FM you are full of it... go spout you narcacistic bs somewhere where people actually want to listen to it... or go save some more kids.. either would be more productive.

reply from: KaylieBee

Well honestly, it's a waste of metaphorical breath to quote words from long-dead men in a feeble attempt to prove me wrong when I have already stated that I don't believe in fiction.

reply from: cracrat

Oh dear, it seems you're wrong again. It appears Hitler was, in fact, a Christian:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
"Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!
"And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )
"For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'"
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )
"I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )
"The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )
"I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .
"As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.
"Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!"
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )
"And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )
"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )
"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. )
"We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. [...] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )
"The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )
"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. )
"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )
"As far as this variety of 'folkish' warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: 'Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.'"
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. )
"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )
"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. )
"Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )
"The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )
"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith."
( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )
"[T]he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free..."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. )
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )
"While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions."
( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )
"National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State."
( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. )
"I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.
"There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.
"The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )
"It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world."
( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403. )
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )
"At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will - not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )
"May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. )
"The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )
You know, ruin the spelling and grammer and a whole lot of these could be statements from you, FM. Whatever you think of the man, it's abundantly clear Hitler was not a humanist.

reply from: KaylieBee

Also, you can't just compare numbers, you have to do it proportionately, since there were considerably fewer people living in those times.
Besides, what does it matter the number? hundred of thousands of people were killed in the name of a religion. It does not damn well matter WHEN that happened, it should DISGUST you regardless.
Your apathy is horrific.

reply from: faithman

And the way you ignore the millions slaughtered by the secular humanist world view is even more horific. And just where does it say I am not disgusted over the wrongful slaughter of any innocent person no matter who does it? But you lying scum bag borthead punks could care less about the millions you kill right now. 1.6 million babies a year in america alone. You want to see something really horific, look in the mirror. On second thought, I wouldn't wish that night mare on anybody.

reply from: cracrat

Come on faithman, Hilter was a Christian. Hitler instigated the Holocaust and WW2. You are a Christian. You support the Holocaust. Isn't that how your logic works? If I'm partly to blame for Stalin, Mao Tse Tung and Pol Pot as a humanist, you're partly to blame for the Holocaust/WW2 as a Christian. I am glad I don't believe there's a God waiting to judge me when I die, that must be a terrible thought for you, Jew Killer.

reply from: cracrat

Care to respond faithman?

reply from: faithman

Care to respond faithman?
Hitler was not a christian. He used the christians to get into office then turned on them. When he got power, he did away with christian holidays and reverted back to the pagan holidays of ancient germany. The SS were the "priesthood" class of the riech, and were open satanic whos headquaters were an old castle with pagan alters for human sacrifice. The SS had to go thru pagan ritual to be SS. hitler based the riech on the secular humanist doctrine of darwinism, not anything christian. He also put several christians to death in the camps right next to the Jews. Stick it dumb ass you are simply wrong, and a lier.

reply from: cracrat

So how do you explain all the quotes I provided? Did you even bother to read them? Repeated references to God over an extended period both written and spoken. I particularly like:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
and
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work."
Various of the quotes were from after he got into power (1933). If he dumped the Christians when he'd got what he was after, why maintain the references?

reply from: yoda

Good grief, FMan, did you have to repost that WHOLE thing?

reply from: galen

_______________________________________
i agree with you kayliebee...

reply from: galen

And the way you ignore the millions slaughtered by the secular humanist world view is even more horific. And just where does it say I am not disgusted over the wrongful slaughter of any innocent person no matter who does it? But you lying scum bag borthead punks could care less about the millions you kill right now. 1.6 million babies a year in america alone. You want to see something really horific, look in the mirror. On second thought, I wouldn't wish that night mare on anybody.
______________________________________________
Not once have i heard her say she was having an abortion... YOU however have been a mean spiteful person who would drive her to it.( if you could) just to proove yourself right... how do you live withyourself each day?....oh yeah.. you don't look in the mirror.

reply from: faithman

And the way you ignore the millions slaughtered by the secular humanist world view is even more horific. And just where does it say I am not disgusted over the wrongful slaughter of any innocent person no matter who does it? But you lying scum bag borthead punks could care less about the millions you kill right now. 1.6 million babies a year in america alone. You want to see something really horific, look in the mirror. On second thought, I wouldn't wish that night mare on anybody.
______________________________________________
Not once have i heard her say she was having an abortion... YOU however have been a mean spiteful person who would drive her to it.( if you could) just to proove yourself right... how do you live withyourself each day?....oh yeah.. you don't look in the mirror.
When you are natural beautiful, a mirror is unnessisary. I drive no one anywhere. The travel down that lane on their own.

reply from: galen

are you high? on acid?

reply from: galen

latent sexual desire.... for vexing.

reply from: faithman

Nope. Never took any of that.

reply from: galen

oh really... coulda fooled me...

reply from: faithman

Then you are really easily fooled, but then fools usually are.

reply from: galen

i'm rarely fooled by the type of obvious sexual postering you are doing with vexing.. psychologically it usually means an intense longing for or a fetish for something..

reply from: faithman

You are posting really screwed up. Might be time for that doctors apointment, or simply let the real galen have the key board back.

reply from: galen

i'm as well as i can be at the moment... i actually had 2 others look at my posts... they all say i'm coherent... so are you all right... maybe have your wife come look at the screen?

reply from: faithman

Then why are you twisting things into what they are not?

reply from: KaylieBee

Galen, you're falling into a very easy trap here...

reply from: faithman

You are already snared by your own conceit.

reply from: churchmouse

Oh your never wrong are you kalie.........LOL
cracrat.......so let me get this straight, because someone says they are something that makes them something even if their actions say something different? Could Hitler have been lying? Could his actions, have shown a different story?
Hitler might have been born INTO a Christian family but his views about Christianity quickly changed. He became a disciple of Nietzsche who also was a rabid anti-Christian. I'll quote some of the things Hitler and friends said that prove this.
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Heinrich Himmler who was the head of the Gestapo had this to say. " We shall not rest until we have rooted out Christianity."
Hitler said that he was fighting against "the God of the deserts, that crazed, stupid , vengeful Asiatic despot with his powers to make laws! .....that poison with which both Jews and Christians have spoiled and soiled the free, wonderful instincts of man and lowered them to the level of doglike fright."
Hitler said, "Christianity is an invention of sick brains...," "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death."
NO CHRISTIAN COULD COMMIT THE SINS THAT HITLER DID. HE DID NOT LOVE HIS ENEMY, HE COOKED THEM IN OVENS.
But you nonChristians seem to think that if someone says they are a Christian, and dont show it by how they live.....that is ok.
Sure we sin......but not like the extreme that Hitler went too. Was Hitler saved in the end........only God knows that.
cracrat you are something else. This was mean,
Who blames you for everything? We all are responsible.......all of us, including Christians for the world we live in. That is WHY CHRIST CAME. We made a mess of things then and today we are still doing it.

How do you explain these that Hitler said.........especially this one,
_________________________________________________________
"Hitler said, "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease."
http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2007/11/adolf-hitler-hated-christianity.html

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ."
_________________________________________________________________
Kind statement. Go save some more kids? You mean aborted kids galen? Wow.......they arent worth fighting for? He might be wrong in execution of his words........but he does care about aborted, slaughtered children in the womb. For you to say this......is cruel.
I was very kind to kaylie when she first came. I went out of my way to share my story to support her to give her encouragment as everyone did. BUT.........there is a little kaylie story.
She has changed a lot since her first post......Lets review.
She shares that ......."And on top of that, I'm extremely childish. Pokemon is one of my favorite games; hell, I even suggested to my boyfriend that we play Pokemon cards after prom!"
Childish but having sex ok. Boyfriends love conquers all. Hmmmmmmm
To small to have child, just big enough to have sex? Extract? The kid?
Tone is changing......
You are not ready to have sex either because with sex comes responsiblity and you are not acting rationally. Yea ok....
But this one really made me sit up and take notice.
See ya now kaylie.
Since coming everyone has been so nice to you. We have offered advice, some even from a professional.......You know that for the most part that we all agree on one thing, that killing the unborn is murder and wrong. Dont play dumb here.
So what do you throw in the face of those who showed such concern for you?
You compare the unborn child to a piece of meat that people eat at their dinner tables.
Uncalled for if you ask me. You are not here for what you say you are here for Miss kaylie.......that is obvious. some people might not be able to discern this......but you dont fool me one bit, not anymore.
When ashmarie said you were a fake.........she hit the nail on the head. You are a fake.
Galen, Miss Kaylie might never had said she was getting an abortion.......but she said worse to those........she so badly wants to impress. You might fall for her crap, but I dont, not anymore.

reply from: KaylieBee

...
It's kinda funny that you would take so much time to respond to a fake.
Ever heard of the phrase 'don't feed the trolls?'
And to extract is to removes, and last I checked, 'kid' has been slang for child for quite a few decades. it is typical of me to speak brutally. I have a taste for brutality, especially the sexual sort.
I can give you loving details about my life that no troll would be arsed to, if you so wish. Like how my father called me a ***** the other night because I was mad at him or spending two damn hours in the bathroom.
But answer me this, even if you do think I'm a troll, you should know the answer to this question.
Aside from the fact we're both humans, thus making us fancy our own species, what makes us more important than other species? Ignoring sentience, what makes us so special? What makes you think that your god doesn't consider you to be equal to a bacteria?
We are an arrogant species. Some of us believe aliens would bother to explore our anal cavities because we're so damn interesting, that spirits would be arsed to contact us from beyond the grave. If you look at it the right way, you could see arrogance in Buddhism, where no animal is killed, in some more...extreme sects no plant which can grow after it is uprooted (like potatoes) can be eaten.
But why is this? Only because they believe in reincarnation, and that that animal or even plant could have the soul of a human. Because it could have the soul of a human. Not the fact that animals are killed in horrifying ways, but because it could have a human soul.
Sure, we naturally value ourselves above other species; A rabbit will save a rabbit before a mouse. But what is it that makes you think you can freely kill any animal, and slap it down on your plate, but think all human life is sacred and special no matter what?
(please forgive how incoherent that rant was, I've had a very busy week.)

reply from: sander

Your rant would have been incoherent if you slept all week.
If you don't know the difference between an animal and a human being, no amount of rest would help.

reply from: KaylieBee

Yet you are incapable of answering my question.
What makes us better?

reply from: sander

I don't know what makes proaborts better than animals, I don't think they are.

reply from: KaylieBee

See? The fact that you don't have an answer proves my point. The fact that you have to sink to attacking me and others proves my point even farther.
How pathetic is that?

reply from: galen

kaylie don't feed the mousey troll and she won't be able to rouse your anger....
ChM... you obviously do not remember what its like to be a young woman and nervouse or scared about some problem... i have yet to see you be anything but prechy here... so go find something useful to do...

reply from: KaylieBee

I'm happily awaiting an answer to my question.
Aside from our place at the top of the food chain, and our sentience what makes us better than and more deserving of the planet than animals?

reply from: galen

nothing does Kay... that is why we must respect life... all of it.

reply from: jujujellybean

hey are you pro abortion or not? sorry I can be slow catching on to things like this...

reply from: yoda

We're against aborting animals also.

reply from: churchmouse

kaylie........dont think you can pull the wook over my eyes so easy. LOL Some may fall for your stuff but most of us do not.
I am not even gonna answer that. If you think my dear that killing an ant on the sidewalk is comaprable to killing a human, you are off your rocker.
It you think saving the whales, the endangered eagle is more important than saving a human life, especially one in the womb.......your out of your mind.
What makes us so special? Honey you obviously can comprehend that at your young and immature (you said it I didnt) age......go play with your Poekman cards.
Cause honey you make no sense here.

sander take it and run
Amen
kaylie you are not worth responding too. First of all honey, you dont believe in God, am I right?......So anything we would say that would point to God you would dismiss. So why should we bother. You had your mind made up before coming on this site. LOL
Who knows how old she really is. She is playing around with people that think the unborn is worth fighting for. She says she is immature and she certainly acts it. Hell she doesnt talk about her possible pregnancy anymore did you even notice that? The people are long gone that tried to help her.
And galen.....I am not going anywhere. I am sure that fact will ruin your entire afternoon.

reply from: nancyu

We're against aborting animals also.
How do you COTs feel about aborting animals? Would you support that also?

reply from: churchmouse

Those that are pro-abortion are agaisnt using animals for experimentation. They protect them anyway they can. They kick the unborn child to the curb.......but you touch an animal and they go nuts.
Look at Hollywood and the lunes that stand up for animals. Now I love animals (I have three dogs, one cat) and I am also against animal cruelty. BUT........we are above animals, God created us that way. And the death of an animal can't compare to a death of a human.
But that is how pro-abortionists see life. They have to justify in their minds that the precious thing they are killing is no more... than a cat or a dog. In fact they deserve less protection than a cat or dog. That is how they live with themselves.
Look at Micahel Vick and what he did. He was tarred and feathered. What he did was inhumane and wrong........but in no way shape or form, even comparable to abortion and the legalized slaughter and dismemberment of the unborn child.
They give him jail time and fines.......and we look away from the real people doing the killing.
An animal in the womb gets more protection than a human in the womb.
Ever read what Peter Singer had to say about this subject? He wrote the book, Animal Liberation. You want to get outraged read it. He values animals over humans.
He said in that book, "It can no longer be maintained by anyone but a religious fanatic that man is the special darling of the universe, or that animals were created to provide us with food, or that we have divine authority over them, and the divine permission to kill them...................."If we compare a severely defective human infant with a nonhuman animal, a dog, or a pig for example, we will often find the nonhuman to have superior capabilities, both actual and potential, for rationality, self-consciousness, communication and anything else that can plausibly be morally significant."
Our society has always acted on the premise that human life is regarded more valuable than that of the nonhuman animal. ??????????
Not so for a lot of people
As PETA puts it......"When it comes to feelings, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy."
(Ingrid Newkirk, cited in Richard Milne, "Animal Liberation: Do the Beasts Really Benefit?" www.probe.org/docs/anim-rts.html.)

reply from: KaylieBee

Yet you still haven't managed to answer my question.
What do you think makes us better?

reply from: KaylieBee

Oh, as for an update, I'm totally not pregnant. Which is cool.
I was at art camp for the last four days. I started menstruating on Wednesday, when I noticed it after peeing I almost started crying. I would have if there weren't two other girls in there at the time.
So I'm in a good mood, just sleepy.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.

reply from: galen

____________________________________________________
congratulations on your period... now remember what you said about learning that sex may not be such a great thing right now?

reply from: galen

I am not even gonna answer that. If you think my dear that killing an ant on the sidewalk is comaprable to killing a human, you are off your rocker.
It you think saving the whales, the endangered eagle is more important than saving a human life, especially one in the womb.......your out of your mind.
What makes us so special? Honey you obviously can comprehend that at your young and immature (you said it I didnt) age......go play with your Poekman cards.
Cause honey you make no sense here.

sander take it and run
Amen
kaylie you are not worth responding too. First of all honey, you dont believe in God, am I right?......So anything we would say that would point to God you would dismiss. So why should we bother. You had your mind made up before coming on this site. LOL
Who knows how old she really is. She is playing around with people that think the unborn is worth fighting for. She says she is immature and she certainly acts it. Hell she doesnt talk about her possible pregnancy anymore did you even notice that? The people are long gone that tried to help her.
And galen.....I am not going anywhere. I am sure that fact will ruin your entire afternoon.
_________________________________________________
nope i had other things to do today... i started radiation again... so guess what your not on here now... so you lose

reply from: cracrat

Hope it goes well. Radiation/chemotherapy is not something I'd wish on anyone.

reply from: nancyu

Hope it goes well. Radiation/chemotherapy is not something I'd wish on anyone.
Same here galen. I will keep you in my prayers.

reply from: KaylieBee

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.

reply from: galen

thanks for the good wishes guys...

reply from: galen

people do so when thier cats and dogs are found pregnant before they can be spayed...they just spay them anyway and let the litter succum... or euthanise it.
same with ferretts.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.

reply from: KaylieBee

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.
No, I just believe people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.

reply from: KaylieBee

We're against aborting animals also.
How do you COTs feel about aborting animals? Would you support that also?
Why would anyone bother aborting an animal?
In biology 122 and 121 at my school we dissect pig fetuses...and there are very few ways to get a fetus out of a pig.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.
No, I just believe people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
Harden not your heart in the day God provokes. Today is the day of salvation.

reply from: faithman

Your pour little natural mind could not comprehend it if we told you. See'ns how you don't believe in God, you don't believe that man kind was created in the image of God and has dominion over all other creatures. When one surrenders to the Lordship of Christ, they become new creatures, with a spiritual mind of Christ that can then comprehend the things of God. Until then you are in the dark.
It's sort of sad when faithman can answer like I wanted before anyone else.
If these are really the reasons everyone else believe, and they failed to answer that question because of my disbelief, then that's miserably pathetic.
I don't give a hell what anyone believes, as long as it doesn't purposely harm others.
It just might mean that the effectual call of the Holy Spirit is wooing you to the truth. Truth is not a "concept". Truth is a person who bled out to pay the price of the sin debt that passed upon all men at the garden. A person can not believe unless the gift of faith is present. Faith is a fasset of that same person who is truth. There is only one substance of faith and truth, that is the one who is God almighty in human flesh. When we look to His cross, and fall at His feet broken and contrite, when we loose our life that we might have His, when we confess before God and man that Jesus Christ is the Lord of our lives, only then can we ever know what it is to truely be alive. Until then we are only walking dead men on the broad road of eternal damnation.
No, I just believe people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm others.
Harden not your heart in the day God provokes. Today is the day of salvation.

reply from: sander

Please let me extend mine too, Mary.

reply from: churchmouse

If you have to think about that one even for a second, you are unbelievable.
So you think your child would be equal to that of a rat? LOL
You think animals should get the same rights as people?
In that case it would be against the law to eat any meat, fish etc.
We wouldnt be able to swat a fly, or walk on grass because we might just kill an ant or spider. In fact we couldnt mow our lawn, or build a house, because we might kill animals.
Couldnt drive a car because we might kill a bug.......could fly in a plane, or ride in a boat.
Interesting blog......from Mark Crutcher
Animal Rights and Human Wrongs June 4, 2007 Categories: abortion, pro-life, animal, moral, justifying abortion, Animals
I recently heard an animal rights activist who called herself pro-choice on abortion say that we pro-lifers are hypocritical because we don't show the same level of concern for dogs and cats that we do for the unborn child. Of course, like almost every other pro-choice argument, this one is firmly rooted in mindless stupidity.
When someone suggests that the lives of human beings and the lives of animals are morally equivalent, what they are saying is that if they ran over someone's five-year-old child with their car it would be no bigger deal than if they had run over a squirrel. By this standard, if a family doctor told a husband and wife that their child has an incurable and fatal disease, that would be no greater tragedy than if their vet told them their pet hamster was dying.
Clearly, this whole line of "reasoning" is nonsense.
The reality is, having known thousands of pro-lifers, I can state with no fear of being inaccurate that the overwhelming majority do indeed care about animals. In my own case, our family includes a cat, two dogs, two rabbits, and five fish. We demonstrate our affection for them in many ways, not the least of which is in vet bills that often appear higher than the debt of some third-world counties.
I also feel confident that most pro-lifers probably share my opinion that people who abuse or neglect animals are cowards who deserve to spend a significant amount of their lives sitting in small, cold, dimly-lit prison cells.
However, anyone who suggests that the lives of animals are morally equivalent to those of human beings is in need of psychiatric help. But if these animal rights wackos honestly believe that they are, I have a legitimate question for them.
If animals have rights in the sense that humans have rights, how do we protect those rights? I'm not talking about protecting animals from having their rights violated by humans. That's relatively easy. What I'm asking is how we protect animals from having their rights violated by other animals. After all, most of the abuse done to animals is not committed by people but by other animals. Moreover, it is illogical to say that we will only protect the rights of animals when those rights are being violated by humans.
So how do we fix the long-standing problem of animal-on-animal abuse? Should we assign police officers to patrol the nation's fields and forests? And what do we do when the authorities catch some furry or feathered miscreant? For example, if a hawk has been apprehended for swooping down and eating a chipmunk, does the arresting officer have to read the hawk his Miranda rights? And how do we make sure that the hawk understands his rights if the cop isn't fluent in hawk? Also, if the hawk can't afford an attorney, do we appoint one to represent him at trial?
Another question is whether we should create an animal DNA database so that when one mouse steals another mouse's cheese we can identify and prosecute the right mouse. After all, as an enlightened and civilized people, surely we would not want to incarcerate an innocent mouse.
As we contemplate these weighty matters, let's not forget that over 3000 innocent human beings will be sent to the gallows today with no trial, no judge, no jury, no appeal, and no stay of execution. And this holocaust will be repeated tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, and so forth. Meanwhile, not one animal rights organization takes a position against it.
Now that's hypocrisy."
/Q]
Concerned you are 100% right when you said,
"We may not always agree on every issue, but you are definitely loved here, Mary. We're all concerned about you, and I'll be keeping you in my thoughts and "prayers."
Well said...........and I second that statement. Tomorrow in bible study.....a lot of people will be praying for you. galen.

reply from: AshMarie88

We're against aborting animals also.
How do you COTs feel about aborting animals? Would you support that also?
Why would anyone bother aborting an animal?
Because they are pro-choice for aborting animals.

reply from: churchmouse

I did but I have thought a lot more about it.
Again Kaylie we were created in the image of God. You asked why we are better. OK.
As Chrisitians we are morally accountable to God for our actions. We have an inner sense of right and wrong that sets us apart from animals. (who have little if any innate sense of morality or justice but simply repond for fear of punishment or hope of reward). When we act according to Gods morals standards, our likeness to God is reflected in behavior that is holy and righteous before Him, but, by contrast our unlikeness to God is reflected whenever we sin.
Do humans eat their young? Do lions feel guilty when they kill their prey?
We also have an ability to reason and think logically and learn that sets us apart from th animal kingdom. If ants reasoned, they never would crawl accross a sidewalk would they? Why would a fly land on a humans hand especially if in it they held a fly-swatter? Animals exhibit makeable behavior by solving mazes and working out specific problems they have been trained to do but they certainly cant engage in abstract reasoning like we do. You think a group of chimps can sit around a campfire and talk about the doctrine of the trinity or the merits of Calvanism, the extinction of the bald eagle? Even in developing physical and technical skills we are far different than animals. Who builds better dams? Yes beavers have been building them since their creation but can their damns even compare to a man made one like Hoover dam? Man continually has developed along the lines of technology and science. Music, art, literature,.........All this shows what sets us apart from the animal kingdom.
I didnt even mention emotions. Although animals do have a sense of community, how do they communicate with each other? By internet? Walky talkie? Cellphone?
God gave man the right to rule over animals, in every sense of the word. I wont cite the scriptures here but read these....Gen1:26, 28 Ps 8:6-8 1 Cor 6:3


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