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Minn. 6th-grader stands up for life

Will you?

by: nancyu

Minn. 6th-grader stands up for life
Jeff Johnson - OneNewsNow - 6/11/2008 10:15:00 AMBookmark and Share
pro-life sign bigA Minnesota 6th-grader is taking his school to court after being ordered repeatedly not to wear pro-life T-shirts to class.

Twelve-year-old K.B., whose full name is not being used because of his age, decided that he wanted to share his pro-life beliefs with his classmates during the month of April. So he decided to wear a pro-life T-shirt to school every day.

Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, says things went well, at first. "The first day nothing happened. But the second day and several days thereafter, he was confronted by not only the principal, but [also] by other teachers indicating that they were displeased that he was wearing the T-shirts," the attorney explains. "And at one point, they threatened to suspend him from school. On several occasions, they sent him to the principal's office. They indicated he had to turn his T-shirt inside-out."

Despite the alleged attempts at intimidation and public humiliation, Thompson says K.B. stood his ground. "And, so, for about a month, he's really endured, for a 12-year-old, he really endured a lot of ridicule. They would call him out in front of his class and, ultimately, we decided that it was important that we file this lawsuit on his behalf -- not only because his constitutional rights were being infringed upon, but also to let the school know that they can't do this [again] in the future," Thompson contends.

Hutchinson Middle School does have a policy forbidding students to wear clothing with "lewd, obscene, vulgar, defamatory or profane" messages. But K.B.'s three shirts said only:
-- "Abortion ... growing, growing, gone"
-- "What part of abortion don't you understand?" and,
-- "Never Known - Not Forgotten"

According to the Law Center president, the school principal stated he found the T-shirts annoying. "So, apparently an annoying T-shirt now falls within one of those categories," Thompson suggests. "In fact, it is our position that the school was violating its own written guidelines when it said the intent of that dress code was not to abridge the rights of students to express their political or religious opinions."

Thompson says K.B.'s lawsuit argues that the school's actions are a clear case of content discrimination against his religious and political opinion opposing abortion. "n this case, it was very clear to us that what this young man was doing was expressing a religious or, if you want, a political opinion that abortion is wrong. He certainly had a right to do that," he argues.http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=132270

reply from: Beprolifewithme

Poor boy!!! I'm so happy for him, sharing his beliefs, but I can't believe that the school found those t-shirts offensive!! One of my friends knew someone who had a little girl (2nd grade) in public school. One day the teacher told the kids all to bring their favorite book to school the next day. The little girl brought the bible. The teacher requested that her mom come get it and take it home because it "was offensive to the other children". how sad is that??

reply from: nancyu

It's really, really sad.

reply from: sander

Darkness does not like and lashes out at the light.
They bear their claws when exposed to the truth and humilate and harrass one of their very own 12 year old students. Which further demonstrates the proabort's tendencies to bully and exert unnecessary power over one younger and less able to defend.
Thank God for the counterparts to the ACLU.

reply from: sander

Same thing...darkness does not like the light.
I suppose if this 2nd grader brought in a copy of playboy they would have said, "oh, how cute".
Makes you wonder where teachers like this got their degree; at K-Mart on a blue light special, I suppose.
It's not un-constitutional to bring a Bible to school, I hope someone set that stupid teacher straight. After all, she should have some semblence of an education.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Darkness does not like and lashes out at the light.
They bear their claws when exposed to the truth and humilate and harrass one of their very own 12 year old students. Which further demonstrates the proabort's tendencies to bully and exert unnecessary power over one younger and less able to defend.
Thank God for the counterparts to the ACLU.
To paraphrase what is in the Book of John; "Those who do evil deeds will not come to the light, for they are afraid their evil deeds will be shown up."
Jesus is the "Light of the World", so that we may see. we are to see evil for what it is and eschew it. Jesus lights the true path that we should walk on (lawful righteous behavior).
We are saved by how we walk.
Walk the narrow path and enter in at the small gate, for broad is the way, and easy is the path that leads to destruction, and many there are that take the broad way.

reply from: churchmouse

God Bless this brave boy.
Wow what an act of love. I can only imagine how hard this could have been on someone of this age. But his passion is clear.
I agree with your entire post except this Godslaw. I do not believe its by any act or work that we do.......but only by the Grace of God that we are saved.
Our walk is a fruit a reflection of that love.......but we were saved in the split second we asked Christ into our hearts.
Jesus saves us, not our acts. The teeshirts, did not save that boy. If he confessed to know Christ and asked Him into his heart......this is what saved him.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I agree with your entire post except this Godslaw. I do not believe its by any act or work that we do.......but only by the Grace of God that we are saved.
Our walk is a fruit a reflection of that love.......but we were saved in the split second we asked Christ into our hearts.
Jesus saves us, not our acts. The teeshirts, did not save that boy. If he confessed to know Christ and asked Him into his heart......this is what saved him.
The Bible spends a lot of time discussing how we ought to walk. over 130 times the New Testament says we must Follow Christ. We must walk in His footsteps and be imitators of Christ. Jesus said, "Follow me!" It's all about following Christ; walking the walk, not talking the talk.
James 2:,20-24 "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac on the alter. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness....You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Nobody is justified by faith alone; a person is justified by faith and works. Yes, the dreaded "and" word; a word dreaded by "faith alone" people; the requirement to have works even appears in the only sentence in the Bible that uses the words "faith alone" side by side; a sentence that says we are not saved by faith alone. We must have works. Those who feed, clothe and shelter their neighbor will inherit eternal life (works performed by faith). Those who do not perform works, feeding, clothing and sheltering their neighbor, will be turned away from the Kingdom of God.
Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life. The Way is a way of life, a way of living. We follow that Way. The Way to life is a path that we must walk on. We must follow the Way Jesus laid out for us; we must walk in his footsteps. He is our example. He shows us the Way we must walk to stay on the straight and narrow path to life. Broad and easy is the way to destruction, it's gate is wide, and many enter into it.
To dumb it down: Salvation ultimately is based on our behavior. Good behavior results in life. Bad behavior results in death. By faith we follow the Way laid out by our Lord Jesus. God is faithful and just to forgive our sins made in ignorance or unintentionally as long as we are committed to being His disciples (students) and strive to reach maturity.
Philippians 3:17 "Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us."
Let us strive to obtain the crown, not as a boxer beating the air aimlessly or as a runner with no goal, but let us be deligent to run the race in a manner that will obtain the crown. Therefore, I keep myself under subjection, lest after preaching to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Even the Apostle Paul said he could become disqualified from receiving the crown if he did not move ahead with purpose.
God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, but we are not to grieve it.
Hebrews warns those that have been called, been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and experienced the good things of His High Hill, if they should fall away, that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. If they sin willfully after these things, trampling on the blood of Jesus, there is no further Sacrifice for sin, only the future of a fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.

reply from: ZacTheMan

This is so uplifting. It is good to know that there are kids out there not afraid to express their beliefs on important issues. It is also sad, because i have come to believe that the school system is starting to create a generation of brainwashed, stupid, gang and drug influenced, sex craving, lazy kids.
(sorry abut the outburst, but sofar I havnt met anybody outside of there criteria)
You do not know glad I am that I am homeschooled by my Mom and that she is providing me with a solid foundation, because I am a competetive swimmer, and the topics that my other teammates "discuss" in the changeroom are enough to fill an x rated movie. I have to listen to music blasting on my Ipod simply because I cannot listen to what they are saying.
Anyways... like I said before, it's great that this kid is dong this. I just wish more would do the same.

reply from: AshMarie88

I was homeschooled from 4th grade until I graduated HS. How are you liking it, Zac?

reply from: galen

its funny how many people bash the ACLU for its right to choose voice... but heartening that they ( ACLU) can turn around and fight on the opposite side for this kid's right to free speech... maybe we can get them involved in personhood???

reply from: yoda

Probably not. I think that local chapters sometimes get involved in such cases just for personal reasons having nothing to do with national ACLU policy. And sometimes it appears that they are just doing it to try to legitimize the ACLU as a "neutral" agency...... which is a joke.

reply from: ZacTheMan

I am really enjoying it!

reply from: ZacTheMan

How did you arrive at the conclusion that it is "the school system" that is "creating" these little monsters? Your mom told you?
I simply said that i haven't met anybody outside of these criteria. I didn't say that that is what every single kid in the school system is like. And, futhermore, it is NOT only the school system's fault. the kids are also being influenced by peers, pop culture, the music they listen to, the shows they watch, and a plethora of other things.
And no, my mom did NOT tell me any of this, it is information that I know. If you don't like that, tough luck.

reply from: carolemarie

I agree with your entire post except this Godslaw. I do not believe its by any act or work that we do.......but only by the Grace of God that we are saved.
Our walk is a fruit a reflection of that love.......but we were saved in the split second we asked Christ into our hearts.
Jesus saves us, not our acts. The teeshirts, did not save that boy. If he confessed to know Christ and asked Him into his heart......this is what saved him.
The Bible spends a lot of time discussing how we ought to walk. over 130 times the New Testament says we must Follow Christ. We must walk in His footsteps and be imitators of Christ. Jesus said, "Follow me!" It's all about following Christ; walking the walk, not talking the talk.
James 2:,20-24 "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac on the alter. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness....You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Nobody is justified by faith alone; a person is justified by faith and works. Yes, the dreaded "and" word; a word dreaded by "faith alone" people; the requirement to have works even appears in the only sentence in the Bible that uses the words "faith alone" side by side; a sentence that says we are not saved by faith alone. We must have works. Those who feed, clothe and shelter their neighbor will inherit eternal life (works performed by faith). Those who do not perform works, feeding, clothing and sheltering their neighbor, will be turned away from the Kingdom of God.
Jesus is the Way, Truth and Life. The Way is a way of life, a way of living. We follow that Way. The Way to life is a path that we must walk on. We must follow the Way Jesus laid out for us; we must walk in his footsteps. He is our example. He shows us the Way we must walk to stay on the straight and narrow path to life. Broad and easy is the way to destruction, it's gate is wide, and many enter into it.
To dumb it down: Salvation ultimately is based on our behavior. Good behavior results in life. Bad behavior results in death. By faith we follow the Way laid out by our Lord Jesus. God is faithful and just to forgive our sins made in ignorance or unintentionally as long as we are committed to being His disciples (students) and strive to reach maturity.
Philippians 3:17 "Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us."
Let us strive to obtain the crown, not as a boxer beating the air aimlessly or as a runner with no goal, but let us be deligent to run the race in a manner that will obtain the crown. Therefore, I keep myself under subjection, lest after preaching to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Even the Apostle Paul said he could become disqualified from receiving the crown if he did not move ahead with purpose.
God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, but we are not to grieve it.
Hebrews warns those that have been called, been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and experienced the good things of His High Hill, if they should fall away, that it is impossible to renew them to repentance. If they sin willfully after these things, trampling on the blood of Jesus, there is no further Sacrifice for sin, only the future of a fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries.
We are saved by faith, and that is a gift so no man can boast.
If you ask Jesus into your heart, He will come in and transform you. That process is called santification.
Works don't save you. Good deeds don't save you. Only Jesus can save you.
Everyone continues to sin after being saved. Do you deny this?

reply from: sander

Sounds like something Obama just said, he thinks when he violates his own values, he sins.
But, the Word of God says differently. We base sin on what God defines as sin.
The definition of sin is missing the mark. As Christians, we all miss the mark, because we are in the flesh. The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Paul said we war in our members, what he wanted to do and what he actually did, didn't always mesh.
As long as we're here on earth we will struggle. None of that is to say we should willingly participate in anything God says falls short of the mark. Striving for perfection is the goal.
Most definiatley, we often "choose" to sin. But, we have an advocate with the Father and if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all un-righteousness.
We don't remain powerless, but give us a break....it takes time to learn to submit to the will of God.
Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

reply from: sander

We have to take the Bible as a whole, not isolate one Scripture....in what context did Jesus say, "be ye perfect"?
As a side note...have you ever tried using biblegatway.com?
It's hard to read the scriptures with all the numbers.

reply from: churchmouse

I agree it does. There are many people that live exactly like Christ said to live however that will not be saved. Did you ever see the Left Behind series? Even the pastor did not make it and by all appearances he walked like we are commanded to do.
but I disagree our talk makes a difference. We should publically acknowledge Christ. We should spread the gospel......these are actions, but also spreading the Word of God. We need to do both. But the only thing that will save us is confessing and accepting Christ, that He was the one that came and died for our sins. It is faith in Christ that will save us. The thief on the cross, did he walk? Do people that get saved on their deathbeds.......walk in Christ? NO.
Only God knows our hearts.......only He knows if our faith is sincere.
If we do confess to be Christs......then our works and actions and fruits will show our love for Him.
You gave this scripture that I would like to address.
James 2:,20-24 "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac on the alter. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness....You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
He was justified by works.......and faith in the God He knew. Christ had not come however. And when Christ came........He fulfilled the law and today we should respect the law of course, but live by the teachings of Christ. Paul clearly argues, in his letter to the Ephesians, that the "law of commandments contained in ordinances" was "abolished" by the death of Jesus upon the cross (2:14-15).
"Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." {Galatians 3:24,25}
"Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." {Colossians 2:14}
I believe a persons walk is of the utmost importance because it reflects the love we have for Christ......but it is by faith we are saved. No act, baptism, communion.......titthing, giving to the poor, saves you.
None of these mean anything unless you are born again, saved in Christ.
The apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8-9, " ...by grace, you have been saved through faith, and that, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST. "
" ... whoever calls on the name of the LORD SHALL BE SAVED, "

Works do not matter unless you are saved first. And as scriptures point out......we look at the works of a person.......God looks at the heart.
How could the thief be saved when He never walked?
We just simply disagree about this one. Salvation is NOT BASED ON BEHAVIOR. The scriptures say by faith, not by works. And if you do a deductive bible study on this, the majority of scriptures say the same thing.
Again carol you and I agree again. LOL
Oh boy do we ever.
I just wish we could do a bible study together carol, wouldnt that be fun?
concernedparent i love ya but ya got this one wrong.
There was only one person that was without sin and that was Christ. The NT talks about what to do if you sin after you are saved. If we did not sin we would be perfect and equal to Christ. That cant happen. We can acknowledge Christ as our personal savior, and when we sin, repent and try to not do it anymore but we are sinners. We need Christ because we are not perfect. He is the bridge to the Father. If we didnt sin, we wouldnt need Him. God spells out sin perfectly in the scriptures. It's not hard to understand right from wrong. The problem with sin and people today......people do not want to be held accountable to anyone. They look at scriptures and they try to make it fit their lifestyle. It should be the other way around. You make your lifestyle fit Gods way. No one can justify their sin.
Not true. What if a Christian thought that because his wife did not want to have sex enough, that he could find it elsewhere? What if he thought his actions were justified and he didnt feel bad about what he was doing? Thats not sin?
What about the office worker who is kinda mad they they arent making as much as a coworker and takes stuff from the office? He doesnt feel bad about it because its just not right that he is getting the shaft. Is it sin because he doesnt think it is?
No God says sin is sin.........and there are no excuses. Look at what happened to Eve when she thought she could be equal to God. She couldnt hide and neither can we.
sander is right, we need to understand and live according to what Gods definition of sin is.......not our own.
And guys dont even get me started on the ACLU. They are evil. LOL

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I am in agreement with what you said above. Christians today say if you sneeze you have sinned. Carolmarie said it is impossible not to sin, do you deny this she says. Of course I deny such outrageous assertions. God has commanded that we become perfect (come to maturity per other translations, or holy). God does warn that we have a lot of housecleaning to do, that if we deny we have any sin we make God a liar. Paul was in that predicament early after his conversion and was greatly concerned that he was a slave to sin. Yet at the end of his life he said he had kept the faith and a crown awaited him. God in another place also says a saint does not sin, for it is not his nature, he has been transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. That transformation only takes place with our willing participation. That fact is most do not have faith in the ability of God's Holy Spirit to change them; they enjoy sin, they are entangled (enslaved) by sin, and they choose to keep on indulging in sin. And even though many are called, only a few are chosen for positions in the coming Government of God. The rest just lack faith and believe they will always be slaves to sin; they practice sin.

reply from: Faramir

I think you're all part right and all part wrong.
But for now, I am not going to participate in this urination contest.
Though it's tempting...

reply from: carolemarie

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. Our own righteousness is just filthy rags in the sight of God.

reply from: Faramir

Ah, Faramir...I realize a lot of my views and understanding go against Catholic doctrine, but it is never my intention to offend you in any way, or give the impression that I am disrespecting what you hold sacred. This is why they say you should never discuss religion or politics among friends....
Yeah, you've said a few things against Catholicism, but I have bigger issues with my fellow Christians. Not personally, though. Just that they are so "dogmatic." I'm dogmatic too, but I will give them space to be wrong (from my perpective), and accept that they believe as they do in good faith, as I do them, and people of other faiths too.

reply from: Faramir

Here's how I see it, and I know it could come across as arrogant, but I'm being candid.
I believe that within my faith subsitsts "the fullness of truth" which God has chosen to reveal to man in this world.
I believe all other Christian faiths to be "inferior" to Catholicism. I believe all other faiths outside of Christianity to be inferior to Christianity.
BUT...I do not believe any of the PEOPLE are inferior.
That is an entirely different ballgame.
As a Catholic I respect what is good and true in all faiths and belief systems, and respect the sincere seeker of truth, whether he be of a particular faith or an agnostic. And in contrast to what some non Catholic Christians might say, I do not believe that only Christians will make it to Heaven. I believe many outside of Christianity will make it to Heaven, but not because of their beliefs, but in spite of their beliefs, and because of their sincerity and their faithfulness to the light they were given and understood.
In your case, CP, I belive you sincerely believe and/or disbelieve in good faith. I believe you embrace the highest ethical standards and do your best to live up to them. I do not believe that your rejection of Chritianity is because of any deficiency or evil motive.
And I don't mean to imply that I'm smarter or better, because I think I'm neither. But I think the faith I've embraced is the correct one, and if I did not think that, I'd be looking for a new one.
It's hard to state how I feel about my faith without it somehow seeming condescending. Even a compliment could seem condescending. For example, I see many outside of our faith doing so much good and behaving so much like Christians are supposed to, yet they are not Christian, and don't have the benefits and knowledge we have. They do so much more with what they have than many of us do.
That's how it seems from my perspective, and yes I understand that even that compliment could seem to be a put down.
But I don't know how else I could say it.
I believe I have the best religion ever, but I certainly don't think it makes me the best person, and I know there are far better people than I am who are outside of my faith.
Have I made things better or have I dug a deeper hole to climb out of?
If you were to say that I'm not a bad guy, even though I'm a Catholic, I could take that as a compliment, if that's what you intended.
But if I haven't made it clear, my main objection has been all the (conflicting) "infallible decrees" that I see regarding Christianity, and little allowance made for those of other beliefs. I believe "my way" is right, but I think I should give you and others, and I think others should give you and everyone else, space to see things "your way." I do not believe you must on the spot "accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" just because I said you should, or just because I quoted a line of out-of-context Scripture.
And I hope I have not been one to condemn "humanism" or "the godless." I don't think I have done that.
Even humanists have hearts (though of course they are very very small...)

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Concernedparent said:
What do you make of this?
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
It speaks of "lust" as if it is not a sin in and of itself, does it not? Lust is pretty much desire, a temptation based on natural impulses that we can't really help. We can refuse to give in to lust (which need not necessarily be of a sexual nature) and allow it to "conceive," bringing forth "sin."
I think this is something that is often misunderstood, leading to the belief that it is impossible not to sin...We can not necessarily help being human and having human desires, since it is inherent, and I do not believe it is a sin to be "only human." It is acting against your conscience, actually giving in to those desires when we know in our heart it would be "wrong" to do so that is "sin."
That's my take on it anyway...
God's Law:
In the King James Bible it advises us to "Be angry, and sin not." Anger is an attribute we should have. The King James Bible also says, "Whoever is angry with his brother, without a cause, is in danger of judgment." So unreasonable anger without a proper cause or reason could be sin.
We don't have to actually commit adultery to be found guilty. The Bible says if we look at a woman for the intention of lusting after her we have committed adultery with her already in our heart. Thoughts lead to action. It is fine to notice that a woman is attractive and well attired. However, if we start making plans in our minds and start getting excited about the prospects of a sexual liason, we are already in danger of, or are actually breaking the prohibition against adultery. The Bible says each man should think of a member of the opposite sex in the same manner that they would their sister. Not dwell on what they can get sexually, but how to treat a sister.
God wants us to come to maturity. To have a mind like Christ. To have a healthy sound mind. He spends a lot of time talking about our thought life. Paul says we need to replace evil thoughts with whatever is pleasant, lovely and true.

reply from: sander

Wow...that's great.
It has some very indepth study tools.
Thanks for the link!

reply from: joe

32"(B)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (C)this age or in the age to come.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

32"(B)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (C)this age or in the age to come.
Concernedparent is correct. He is like the child proclaiming, "The Emperor has no clothes."
You are wrong Joe. It appears you were trying to misuse a Scripture as a threat.
About lust and thought life, I posted a response to you CP on this thread just a few items ago.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

32"(B)Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in (C)this age or in the age to come.
Concernedparent is correct. He is like the child proclaiming, "The Emperor has no clothes."
You are wrong Joe. It appears you were trying to misuse a Scripture as a threat.
About lust and thought life, I posted a response to you CP on this thread just a few items ago.
Hmmm, you interpreted Joe's quote as a threat? I don't get it....
I appreciate the response. I was curious to hear how you interpret the verses in question.
Joe was totally off-base. He, in fact, is the one who doubts the power of the Holy Spirit. He seems to think you are being critical of the Holy Spirit in a way that will cause you to never be forgiven. I have no idea how he can come up with the idea that you'll be damned forever. Joe should address his own doubts about the power of the Holy Spirit.
I'm not clear on what the interpretation of the Biblical verses cited by Joe are. As Peter said of Paul's writings, "There are many things in them difficult to understand."

reply from: joe

I have no doubts about the power of the Holy Spirit.
To speak against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy.

reply from: joe

I quoted a Teaching of our Christ against your critical post about the Holy Spirit. It was for those who care, not to offend you.
To be honest I am surprised you would even respond.

reply from: churchmouse

I know you don't. We all might disagree on doctrine, but if we keep Christ in the center.....that is what is important.
But no matter how hard we try, no matter what we do we WILL ALWAYS FALL SHORT. If we were perfect, we would be equal to God. That is a balance of power that will never happen. We need Christ because we still are imperfect. Once we accept Christ we should stive to be perfect in Him. We should think and act like He would think and act. Jesus Christ is the only one that has ever lived that is without sin. Even the disciples......sinned while spreading the gospel.
I just read a really good book by George Barna called Think Like Jesus. Amazing book.
He said, "He says, ""It seems that Christians are more affected by society than society is affected by Christians. Why? Perhaps because more than 9 out of every 10 born again Christians fail to think like Jesus, they think like the rest of the world, so they naturally behave like citizens of the world, too. They are not the salt and light that Jesus COMMANDS us to be because they lack the personal commitment and depth of faith that makes them truly changed, God-driven beings."
We need to think and act like Christ and back Jesus's worldview up with action, not part time, but full time.
I think Barna is amazing and he does a lot of research that is surprising. Check his site out. http://www.barna.org/ You guys might like him too.
Faramir I know you dont want to fight and argue here about stuff, I can certainly see your point......but kind and honest discussion is ok. I for one.... really look forward to your take on things. Every Christian should give a verbal defense of their faith, making sure it lines up with scripture. Its called apologetics. If you think something is false you should say so. It does not mean you think less of a person, but if you give your reasons and you back them up with scripture........that is what God wants. There are fale prophets out there and you have an obligation to expose them. I am NOT saying anyone here is doing that, I mean in general.
Read Acts 17:10-11, and 2 Corinthians 13:5
The apostle Paul said, "Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." (Colossians 4:5-6)
"A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable, But the mouth of fools spouts folly." (Proverbs 15:1-2)
Thats ok. I find fault with denominations that rely more on man made rules than Gods rules. I go to a Bible Church, and we answer tothe Bible. It is our ONLY SOURCE OF TRUTH. We believe that no session, or higherarchy need dictate to us what God wants us to do.
And its funny, I believe that all faiths that depend on a denomination for the Truth, are not following scripture. I look to the Bible for the Truth and to no denomination. You said you believed you have the best religion ever. I choose to think of my faith as more of a relationship not a religion. And if anyone calls on the name of Christ......the scriptures say they will be saved. Jesus said, I am the WAY. He was clear, "the" way.......not "a" way. There is only one way. If one does that regardless of what Church they go to......they are saved. That is my belief.

I hope you keep sharing your faith here, even if if its different than mine.
And I am one you are talking about and that is fine. We have made our peace I hope. I really have come to respect your opinion, even though our faiths are not the same. I am trying. I know you are patient when it comes to the humanist thing.
I still have to stand up for what I believe is the truth. I know you understand that. It's not just humanists that are to blame for the problems of the world. The majority of Christians dont even live like Christians. I just believe that when a person or society tries to live without God it has negative consequenses.
Lets discuss but in kindness. Nobody is perfect there, I certainly am not. I want to hear what everyone has to say.

reply from: carolemarie

Yes it would! I love delving into the word, even if it is something I have read a thousand times, I always learn something new....

reply from: carolemarie

I was impressed with the basic program but the add ons make it amazing! It is easy easy easy to use too.

reply from: carolemarie

The 77% of the world population that isn't 'Christian' seems to be getting by just fine.
Really? Do you read the papers? Do you remember Rwanda? Somilia? Dufar? Need we mention all the misery and suffereing in the world, of which the majority are not Christian?

reply from: Faramir

I was not much of a Protestant or bible believer before I became a Catholic at age 38, but I did lean in that direction, and I'm the only member of my family on either side who is a practicing Catholic.
It was not easy to go against the Protestant culture in which I was raised. And I had many misconceptions about Catholicism.
The point I'm making is that I have considered all these things. I'm not just preaching Catholicism because that's all I know. I chose it after almost two years of research, study, and praying about it.
Could I challenge you to read the following conversion story? It is from a Presbyterian minister and theologeon who converted to Catholicism:
http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm
">http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm
I know why I belive in the scriptures. But why do you? How do you know the scriptures are inspired? Where does it say in the bible that you should use only the bible as your authority?

reply from: faithman

I was not much of a Protestand or bible believer before I became a Catholic at age 38, but I did lean in that direction, and I'm the only member of my family on either side who is a practicing Catholic.
I was not easy to go against the Protestant culture in which I was raised. And I had many misconceptions about Catholicism.
The point I'm making is that I have considered all these things. I'm not just preaching Catholicism because that's all I know. I chose it after almost two years of research, study, and praying about it.
Could I challenge you to read the following conversion story? It is from a Presbyterian minister and theologeon who converted to Catholicism:
http://www.chnetwork.org/scotthconv.htm

I know why I belive in the scriptures. But why do you? How do you know the scriptures are inspired? Where does it say in the bible that you should use only the bible as your authority?
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
BUMP

reply from: galen

hey vexing? have you looked at the abortion images thread lately...?
i think thease 2 newbies would have a great time debating you....

reply from: galen

enjoy... never say i didn't give you nothing....

reply from: churchmouse

I agree with carolmarie. Look around at the conditions of the world. Why do we have an HIV/AIDS epidemic? People having sex outside Gods boundaries.
You ought to read Bill Bennett's INDEX OF LEADING CULTURAL INDICATORS; AMERICAN SOCIETY AT THE END OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY.
He gives a lot of stats that are very eye-opening in this book.
I'll cite a few.
1. Violent crime up 467% in 40 years
2. The number of state and federal prisoners up 463% in 40 years
3. Out of wedlock births up 461% in 40 years
4. The number of children living in single parent homes up threefold
5. Out of wedlock births account for 32% of all births nationally-highest rate Washington DC at 64% and lowest rate Utah at 17%\
6. 26% of ALL pregnancies aborted
7. Gonorrhea infection rates of 150 per 100,000
8. Television turned on 7 hours and 12 minutes a day in the average household.
And these stats are about ten years old I believe so I am sure they have gone up.
ARe we happier?
"Key social indicators suggest that marriage in America is weakening. Americans have been less likely to marry and more likely to divorce. Marriages are also less happy. They found that 54.6 % of girls and 62% of boys felt that cohabitation was a good idea and that 50% of teens believe that out of wedlock childbearing is now a worthwhile lifestyle."
Bennett suggest that in 100 years Americans more than likely will marry 4 times and have extramarital affairs with NO public censure. This will be looked at as a conscious evolutionary process.
I think he is off here.......I bet its 20 years until this happens.
The lack of morals and virtue on the part of millions is the reason for much of the chaos we see today IMO. Abortion and pornography just two sins have become entrenched into the culture of today. Look at music today that our youth listens to.... degrading to women,promoting violence, profanity. Look at our movies......the sicker the theme, the more violent, sexually perverse the better. Grand theft Auto had such a good impact on society didnt it.
The traditional family, GO, GOING, GONE......can be anything today. Five fathers, three mothers.....two woman.........two men..........three men, one woman.......groups.......and what will the affects down the line be for children? Does anyone care?
Bennett say, ""The United States Census in 2000 showed that "2 parent families now represent less than 25% of ALL households in America, down from 45% in 1960."
The United States has always had cultural impact on the world. I ask, why would any country want to follow in our footsteps, look at us? It's legal for mothers to kill their babies..... we don't care if our politians are morally sound, that they have virtue and character.....anyone will do.
We are a country where materialism is the most important thing for success. A country where everything should be acceptable if it feels good. And feeling good comes if you own a lot of material things and your sex life is good.
Does not matter how you get them either.
We embrace anything and everything in this country that is deviant. We have no moral code. Who needs a moral code to live by anyway. God is outdated, even by the majority of the so called people that call themselves Christians. They try to update scripture to make it more culturally appealing to those that want to sin, but still feel good about themselves. Homosexuality wrong in Gods eyes, but who cares......God must have made a mistake homosexuality should be embraced. The men that penned Leviticus must have understood God to mean something different. If you dont want to worry about sin......and feel good, turn on Joel Osteen. a prime example of preachers who dont want to talk about sin and hell and the consequences of living without God.
Unwed mothers, suicide, abortion, drugs, alcohol, poverty, pornography, child abuse, spousal abuse, violence, gangs, sexually transmitted disease, white collar crime....................its all there just packaged to look normal.
More people in our country feel cruelty to animals is worse than abortion. Hollywood stands up with PETA and kicks the unborn child to the curb. And blind people all over the country, that idolize these Hollywood slugs, cop the same attitudes towards life.
Somethings wrong........I personally think it has to do with God.
Did anyone catch the Larry King interview with Hulk Hogen this past weekend? Anyone as outraged as I was?
I have never been so sick to my stomach over some trailor trash celebrity in my life. And there will be people that will fall for his crap hook, line and sinker. No accountability for his envolvement with his sons crime.......excuses, excuses. Poor pathetic son in jail for a few months, living conditions not up to the Hogans lifestyle. Did you hear the tapes of them talking planning a new reality show? While the sons victim is laying in a hospital bed in some old folks home, will never walk, talk.......live a normal life again.
And the Hulk trying to get just one Christian scripture out of his mouth......but didnt even get that right. Whoever the person was that was preparing him for this, did not do a good job. Hulk a walking Christian? LOL Oh it looks that way doesnt it.
If this is not an indication of the deterioration of our society I don't know what is.
I was watching television the other night and started watching a show called Tina Tequilla. I had no idea what it was. I could not believe what I was seeing. Absolutely pathetic, sick.
But then when we embrace shows like the bachelorette, where a girl is trying in less than six weeks time to find a husband for life.........should we really be surprised. What a way to find a husband. And if ya cant find one after kissing and snuggling up to twenty guys you will never find one. lol
We are going down that slippery slope faster every day.

reply from: faithman

It sucks because secular humanist scum bags like you have almost taken it over, not because a few christains live here.

reply from: sander

My country is doing just fine with the secular humanists running it.
Really? Is that WHY you live in fear of being killed and why you were thrown down the stairs and had the stuffing beat out of you? Guess the humanists aren't doing a very good job of protecting you.

reply from: carolemarie

You have to go back that far to find something?
The world is better off because of Christianity.

reply from: sander

I don't live in fear. If I did, I wouldn't be living as a woman.
I was thrown down some stairs, but the guy panicked when he saw what he had done and tried to run off. He was also dealt with accordingly; so I'm comfortable that justice was done.
Considering the horror stories that I hear from TS girls in America, NZ is a virtual TS paradise.
Then all your whining about how people want to kill you was just so much blather....that's what I thought in the first place, just looking for pity....get lost.
And whatever you're hearing from those in the states is a bunch of hooey too...make up your mind, either your TS lifestyle is free from fear or not.

reply from: carolemarie

Plenty of small children are molested by non-christian people. I am sure the ratio is probably even. People who attack kids go to where the kids are.

reply from: churchmouse

They have taken it over. Do you know why faithman? Because Christians did not stand up for Christ and sold it out. There are more Christians in name only in this country than anywhere else. They do not live like Christ commanded. Why? They dont pick up the Bible to even read it. They rely on clegy and pastors, and priests to do everything for them. Being a Christian is all about the relationship you have with Christ. The majority of Christians do not have a relationship. They attend church, give a token offerning and they think that is enough.
We allowed this great Christian country to change.
Good point. Which would you rather have following you down a crowded alley at night. A bunch of Christians walking home after a bible study, or a group of people you know nothing about?
I DO NOT BELIEVE ALL HUMANISTS ARE EVIL, OR BAD OR DO NOT HAVE MORALS. I am not saying all humainsts here.
Then....... don't come here. LOL Stay there in your paradise.
If we are so bad.......why do you bother with us? Why do you talk to TS's here? LOL Or are they the only nice people in America?
What a cruel thing to say. Not all priests molested boys.
vexing you poor soul. You have to worry so much more than anyone else. Wow.
Violence on a large scale, WHERE IS IT? And you have the gall to say that we dont have anything to fear? Who do you think you are? You deserve no more protection than anyone else does.

reply from: galen

poor gingerkid and yoda...

reply from: carolemarie

Seems Christianity doesn't make any difference to the world at all then.
Real Christianity has done alot for the world. Most of it is based on love your neighbor as yourself. Christianity has always been humanitarian.
The early church in Jerusalem appointed deacons and elders to care for widows and the sick (Acts 6:1, James 5:13), and churches still do this today. In the Middle Ages, the monisteries created hospitals. The big crowds of pilgrims to the Holy Land were cared for by the Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem.
Florence Nightingale received her training at the first Protestant hospital - at Kaiserwerth in Germany.
In 1859, Swiss humanitarian and Bible-believer Henri Dunant was planning the Red Cross and negotiating the Geneva convention for the care and treatment of wounded soldiers. Dunant was co-winner of the first Nobel Prize for Peace in 1901, and his inspiring Red Cross committee later won the award three times.
It was the Bible-believing Christians in England in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries - not the secularist of the day - who tackled the illiteracy problem, adult education, abolition of slavery, prison reform, and treatment for alcoholics. The Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) was formed in 1844, the YWCA a decade later, and the Salvation Army launched its multinational welfare organization based on Christian ethics and precepts.
Christians set the foundations for education in North America, including establishing Harvard and Yale.
Mother Teresa continued the tradition with her home for the dying in Calcutta, and there is Compassion International that helps children around the globe, and James Robinson who helps provide wells for clean water in Africa, as well as feeding the starving. There is Feed the Children, the Southeren Baptist Diaster Relief Agency that provides care to victims here and overseas. They were in New Orleans before FEMA hit the ground, and were serving over 20,000 meals daily. They were there after the tsumini hit Asia, and they are on the way to the Midwest right now....
To say Christianity has done nothing is simply inaccurate.

reply from: carolemarie

Seems Christianity doesn't make any difference to the world at all then.

reply from: carolemarie

LOL! "Just as many non-Christians molest children!" That's some defense!
I thought it was withering scarcasm....

reply from: yoda

Well, I'm not rich, but I get by.........

reply from: faithman

So have a lot of other organisations.
You're not special.
Personally, I've had more problems with Christians than anyone else.
The church seems to be a bastion for bigotry and hatred against anyone 'different'.
Did you ever think that your scum bag perverted self may be the bigot? You are the one who hates. You hate God. You are bigotted against those who love Him and are His children. And you hate yourself because of the way God created you. And just why do you hate womb children so much that you advocate their slaughter? Do everybody a favor and abort yourself.

reply from: jujujellybean

The Christians would be more likely to kick my head in if they found out I was TS.
Random people with random sets of beliefs are usually more concerned with what's going on in their own life and don't interfere with yours.
Christians seem to think they have a right to stick their nose in your business and tell you how you should live your life. Fact.
'Christian' is just a word used to describe a particular set of beliefs; mainly, in the one God. The thing is, you have just as much of a religion telling us to stop imposing our morals on people. I mean, by telling us to stop imposing morals, YOUR ARE DOING THAT EXACT THING. And besides, if they were truly Christians they wouldn't hurt you, and unless you told them how the heck would they know you are TS? I mean, sheesh. Are you going around telling people or something?

reply from: churchmouse

You are so far off base. No true Christian would kick your head in. That is an illusion you have made up in your own mind. You want that to be true.
Christians have every right to speak up about things they find offensive. You do dont you? You think its ok if you call the world as you see it......and they cant?
Do you really think that Christians are the only ones that might find something wrong with TSs? Life would be PERFECT without Christians eh?
Could you give some examples please.
juju you are so right when you said this.

reply from: carolemarie

So have a lot of other organisations.
You're not special.
Personally, I've had more problems with Christians than anyone else.
The church seems to be a bastion for bigotry and hatred against anyone 'different'.
Mother Cabrini, was the first American citizen to be canonized by the Roman Catholic Church.
Her religious order of nuns established seven homes and a free school and nursery in its first five years. 1889 she came to NYC and founded 67 institutions, hospitals, orphanages and schools.
She cared about people, the infirm, the sick and the abandoned.
Cite what organizations that have a non-christian POV have done to enrich the world? Be sure and go back to the 18 & 19 century to show that they were doing that then as well.
Christians have blessed the world to honor their God.
You should thank God that He used us to bless you.

reply from: carolemarie

How about I go back and show the burnings, torture, brainwashing, etc, etc, done in the name of Christ? I did some research yesterday and the results were appalling.
For all the 'good' Christianity has done, it has committed atrocities that completely cancel out that good.
Did you know that Christians accounted for almost all of the slave trading back when slavery was legal? Christians shipped them, Christians sold them and Christians bought them.
I find all the atrocities that were committed in the name of God appalling! Even worse than something a Marxist would do, since we supposedly know better.
But that doesn't negate the fact that Christians who loved God are responsible all the reform I posted eariler.
And any Christian who would attack you or assualt you isn't doing what the bible instructs. We are called to LOVE people, not hurt them. I am so sorry that anyone felt they had the right to hurt you or mistreat you. That isn't what the bible tells us to do.

reply from: galen

- Robert Green Ingersoll, "What Infidels Have Done"
_____________________
absolutely

reply from: churchmouse

You might think you don't impose your beliefs on anyone, but you do. You said you didnt care what anyone thought that you were using the womans bathroom. You dont care what anyone else things. You think you are right and that is all that matters.
Intolerance is not being able to accept the others beliefs. I am sure by now you think I am intolerant of your views. If you think this.....then you are intolerant of mine.
They say, "When the intolerable is tolerated, no one is safe." I believe it.
The new tolerance today is that I not only have to be tolerant of those I dissagree with but I also have to ACCEPT those values, lifestyles, those beliefs as absolutely equal to and as valid as my own. This is what is being shoved down my throat.
Have you ever noticed vexing how some of the most intolerant people are those who yell the loudest for tolerance? Their definition of free speech is that you can have complee free speech IF you agree with their views and jump on their bandwagon. I aint jumpin.
But then weren't you the one that said you were more woman than an actual woman? LOL
The guy that pushed you down the stairs was no Christian because no one that was walking in the light of Gods Word, would do that. No one. He was a false Christian and obviously Satan has a hold of his life.
vexing carol and myself have both asked you to name organizations that are not religious based that do charitable things around the world. Cant you find any?
You are trying to change the subject.
Yes, there are things that certainly were not godly and all done in the name of Christ. But in no way, shape or form, does it cancel out the good done in His name. Did you know that even the black man in Africa sold his own brothers and sisters out?
Look at those that have no God belief, Hitler, Marx, Nietzsche, Pol Pot etc.....the things Christians have done cant compare to the atrosities done by secular humanists.
You dont get this do you? Anyone can claim they are Christian. But does standing in a garage make you a car? If you follow the teachings of Christ, and you love HIm, love your neighbor, love your enemy.......then you could never do what a Hitler did.
Anyone that would lay a hand on you for any reason other than to help you if you were hurt........is not acting like a Christian. Like Carol says, we are called to love, even our enemy.
concernedparent......you mentioned Turner, Buffett and Gates. THEY HAVE TO DO DONATE or be eaten up by taxes. IMO Ted Turner is a pig. The things he has said, to the Catholic that worked for him were outrageous. I dont judge his heart only actions......but they lead me to think, his main motivation in life......is money. Theirs however good is not a Mother Teresa form of charity.
Read about your sweet Ted Turner.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/4152/insult.htm

And Gates isnt far behind.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2003/may/03050902.html

http://www.gatesfoundation.org/GlobalHealth/Pri_Diseases/OtherInfectiousDiseases/Announcements/Announce-161.htm

Let not forget WArren Buffett.
http://www.lifenews.com/nat2369.html

Just who do they help?

These men are pro-abortion, what does that tell ya. LOL

reply from: cracrat

That is, by definition, an oxymoron. If something is intolerable, it will not be tolerated.
Being tolerant requires you to accept other lifestyles, choices, actions that you yourself may be uncomfortable with, not choose yourself or even find offensive. I consider myself a tolerant person, so long as by your actions you bring no unconsenting harm to another. People into whips and chains kinky sex? Be my guest, so long as everyone involved knows what they're getting into. Kiddie fiddling? No chance, since the child can not consent.
If you have a set of guidelines by which you prejudge other people's behaviour, you are not tolerant.
Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth, The Red Cross, Medicin sans Frontier, Oxfam (there were Quakers involved in their foundation, but they are not a religious organisation), WaterAid

reply from: churchmouse

So is vexing right or wrong for going into the ladies locker room?

reply from: cracrat

So is vexing right or wrong for going into the ladies locker room?
She's right. She's in the process of living as a woman and must acclimatise herself to all things womanly, from going into the ladies room to not being able to handle her liquor. So long as whilst in the ladies room she behaves in the normal fashion, ie use the loo, wash her hands, do whatever it is women do in there to make it take 35 minutes, then where's the harm? If she were going in there and looking over/under cubicles there'd be a problem, but she isn't so there's not.

reply from: churchmouse

Why do I have to tolerate everything? I believe objective truth exists.
What you are really saying here is that the pursuit of any truth is an excerise in futility.
I do not believe that the beliefs of one person or group might be true for them but not for me.....vise versa.
I believe truth is universal. I do not believe that all religions are the truth. I believe there are moral absolutes. I believe there is an ethical right and wrong. If abortion, murder, rape is wrong in America, then it should be wrong in any other country in the world. I dont think it changes with history or for different cultures.
Why do people tell Christians they cant spread the gospel?
Why should the act of persuasion be prohibited? Christians are bashed for sharing their faith and they are called intolerant. Is it then intolerant when secular humanists try to do the same thing? I believe humanism is a worldview a religion of sorts.

I think the non-religious think that people with faith are arrogant. That to be exclusivistic (as in Christianity) is to be arrogant. We claim to know the truth and because we want to share it.....we are intolerant because we dont accept others lifestyles as equal to our own. Its not about tolerating, its all about accepting today. If you are a Christian and you stand on scripture that homosexual sex is wrong.......you are not only intolerant, you are labeled a hateful person for saying it. We have church denominations all over the world that are caving in by selling out Gods Word. Sin is sin, and when Christians call it such, they are intolerant.
We are told we have no right to proselytize. Everyone else can but we cant.
Today if you imply ANYONE IS WRONG.......you are intolerant. It's the cardinal sin today to tell someone what they are doing is wrong. Today you must unconditionally accept all lifetyles as legitamate and right. Today we have groups exerting power to legitimize their views. They want change society and they work tirelessly to make law that accepts their worldview but ties the hands of others.
Example......Hate Crimes Legislation. This law will eventually criminalize Christianity. Its happened in Canada and Sweden. The Bible is classified as a hate book, and pastors go to jail for saying anything negative aobut homosexual behavior. Just rip the book of Leviticus right out of your bible.
If my belief is only true for me, then why isn't yours only true for you?

reply from: carolemarie

- Robert Green Ingersoll, "What Infidels Have Done"
In 1859, Swiss humanitarian and Bible-believer Henri Dunant was planning the Red Cross and negotiating the Geneva convention for the care and treatment of wounded soldiers. Dunant was co-winner of the first Nobel Prize for Peace in 1901, and his inspiring Red Cross committee later won the award three times.
I agree that lots of secularist have done good things. Except I don't know if I would consider all the money that Gates give to PPH a good thing unless you support abortion, and I don't.
Christians are involved in that fight and have been since the begining. Christians have been helping AIDS vicitms in Africa since the beinging. I will be glad to provide long list of Christian agencies if you need it. Your statement that the Gates foundation has done more than anyone else isn't factual.
Christianity has helped people because of the basic belief that we are to love our neighbor as ourself and we have done so since the begining of the church.

reply from: carolemarie

Vexing, you have the right to live anyway (within reason) that you please. I think your choices are wrong, based on what I believe about God. But I also know that same God loves you very much. And no matter what I believe about your lifestyle choices, that doesn't give me the right to treat you disrespectfully or be mean to you or to assualt you.

reply from: carolemarie

Christians help others because we love our neighbor as ourself, it doesn't get you into heaven or help you score brownies points for doing it.
If you believe in Jesus you go to heaven if you help anyone or not.
I don't know what the motive of the others are, tax deductions, fame and being considered good guys....their legacy....
we do it to please God who did everything for us

reply from: carolemarie

Why is it wrong?
To all intents and purposes, once my transition is finished, I will be eunuch.
There is nothing sinful or wrong about eunuchs, is there?
Are you going to argue with Jesus on that one?
Being a woman is something you are born being, not something you can impersonate. You either are or you are not. Being surgically altered doesn't make you a women.
Sex is a good thing and I don't think God wants us to make ourselves into eunuches either.
But if you choose to live this way I wouldn't hit you or call you names or be cruel to you. I would be willing to be friends, no matter what you believe.
I wouldn't lie to you about what I believe.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think Christians are better than anyone else. I said that because we are Christians we do these things. It is what our religion teaches.
Non-Christians can and do good things as well. I don't deny that they do. This post/thread started because Vexing said Christians didn't do anything good. That isn't true.
I don't agree Christians have been a curse on the planet anymore than non-christians like pol pot for example. I think religious zealots who twist scripture to justify their hate have been a curse on this planet. Even leaders like Calvin killed a whole bunch of people. People in Greenpeace advocated putting spikes in trees so loggers would be hurt. Zealots are scary folks....christian or secular.
Bill & Melinda Gates can do more than other people simply because they have more money. That is why Christian groups can accomplish so much, because we can all chip in and that adds up to more $ than even the Gates can amass. You don't have to be rich to help change the world. You just have to care about people. And someone has to be willing to go and serve those people. Lots of Christians give up everything they have to go and serve others.
I think everything would be great if Christians would act like they belive the bible and take seriously to love their neighbor as themself. Christans don't have the right to kill anyone. The bible precludes that notion.

reply from: carolemarie

This is from the International Red Cross website.
Henry Dunant (1828-1910)
The man whose vision led to the creation of the worldwide Red Cross and Red Crescent movement; he went from riches to rags but became joint recipient of the first Nobel peace prize.
©ICRC/Ref. hist-22
Henry Dunant (1828-1910), founder of the Red Cross.
Henry Dunant (1828-1910), founder of the Red Cross.©ICRC/Ref. hist-22
Henry Dunant, who was born in Geneva on 8 May 1828, came from a devout and charitable Calvinist family. After incomplete secondary schooling, he was apprenticed to a Geneva bank. In 1853, he travelled to Algeria to take charge of the Swiss colony of Sétif. He started construction of a wheat mill, but could not obtain the land concession that was essential for its operation. After travelling to Tunisia he returned to Geneva, where he decided to approach Napoleon III to obtain the business document he needed.
At the time, the Emperor was commanding the Franco-Sardinian troops fighting the Austrians in northern Italy, and it was there that Henry Dunant decided to seek him out. This was how he came to be present at the end of the battle of Solferino, in Lombardy.
Returning to Geneva, he wrote A Memory of Solferino, which eventually led to the creation of the International Committee for Relief to the Wounded, the future International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Dunant was a member and acted as secretary. He was now famous and was received by heads of State, kings and princes of the European courts. But his financial affairs were floundering and he was declared bankrupt in 1867. Completely ruined, he was in debt for almost a million Swiss francs (1860s value

reply from: churchmouse

I totally agree. Many people that claim to be Christian are pro-abortion, and the rest don't care because it does not concern them. I totally blame abortion being legalized on the Christians, the -in -name-only group. Because if every Christian in 1973 had been walking in the light, if every pastor stood up in outrage, this might not have happened. Christians could put the heat on......but they dont. So yes I agree with you.
But like carol said, you do not need money to do good works. Turner, Gates, Buffett give a lot of money away, they have to.......but their pro-abortion stance......ruins everything for me. That says a lot about their heart dont you think? They think AIDS is a worthy cause......and abortion is as well.
You say we should look at churches.....well they are non-profit arent they? If you look at the mega pastors, yes they make a lot of money. I go to a church with around 100 members. We meet in an elementary school. Most the work we do is missions work. Our youth groups, college and high school groups go monthly to Nogales, Mexico to hand out food and clothes to the poor. Most the time our church is doing missions work. Although money helps, a lot of good works are done without it.
I mentioned Mother Teresa, because she did Gods work without a lot of money. She lived with those she helped. Her heart, her soul was in Gods work and she did it to GLORIFY GOD. She was humble in spirit. She was one woman that lived the gospel.
And your right my personal opinion isn't really that important here.......but we are here just sharing opinions right? I repsond to those that also share opinions.
Not totally but sometimes they do.
Take for example a Christian that has just witnessed to a new Christian. The baby Christian then sees him go against what he has witnessed. He sees him drunk, looking at pornography....living deep in sin, himself etc. He is phony.
I did not mean it that way sir. Gee I can't share opinions here without people getting defensive? And I am not directing this just to you. In fact go look at the past few pages of posts.......I did not direct one thing to you personally.

For you to say, that I think I am superior because I am a Christian is bullhockey.
I am the one that calls herself a murderer. I have been perfectly honest about the sin in my life. Thats me buddy. I have taken heat here for just about everything, especially when i defended carol. I have said, many times I am not worthy to have been forgiven.
If I felt that I had hurt someone, I was quick to apologize. I realize I am new here, and there are established friendships.......really a sort of hierarchy I guess, so I was warned. What am I supposed to do.... walk around here on pins and needles, not really sharing my beliefs and opinions?
I am not here to fight. But I am not going to roll over and play dead either, not when it comes to the unborn child in the womb and my faith in God. I am a CHRISTIAN FIRST.
And you also talk down to Christians Concerned. You might not like me personally, but there are other Christians here too. And the very fact you said, "your sweet Christianity' I think was insulting. And you meant it to be taken in that spirit.
You know I am criticized here.....for my lengthy posts, but yours took the cake tonight, with all the history stuff. What a lengthy cut and paste. LOL
You dont get one thing concerned. Christians base lifes decisions on the Word. How can we not do what the scriptures COMMAND us to do? And one of those things is to spread the gospel. One of the major reasons I came to believe abortion was wrong, was through Gods Word. Sure science played an important part, but it was God that changed me. You ask me to leave it out? I won't.
I have never damned anyone here for crying out loud. But the scriptures are clear about what sin is and how one gets to heaven. I did not write the Word. The scriptures say it is my Christian duty to spread Gods message. If you do not like it put me on ignore. And I am not trying to ram it down anyones throat.
Who have I put down? Who do I doom with the gospel, certainly not you?
Since you told me you were offended by me calling you a humanist....I have let up a lot and you know it. I took your feelings into consideration. So don't give me crap about me trying to convert you, even discuss the gospel with you.
There should not be a double standard here........you shouldnt be able to bash Christianity and we say nothing about humanism.
What message rejected? You mean The gospel? Its Gods message.......not mine. I just share it.
What do you mean by "making your job more difficult."? Do you own this site? Like am I supposed to get my replies approved by you before I post them? LOL
Who am I trying to ram God down their throats? Who?
Not vexing. I hardly have ever mentioned God to him. Not carole, or nancy......they are walking Christians, who spread the gospel themselves. I defended Christians when vexing.....attacked them. (post 6-17-08 1:25 am) Then vexing came back....(post 6-17-08 6:3 pm) with more. What...... I cant challenge him on this? He can bash Christians and you can too......and we should just shut up and take it?
So who, who do I witness to everytime I get on here? Funny no one has said one word to me about it.
carole and nancy talk a lot about God. I'ts ok for them to do it and not me? Do they ram God down peoples throats?
Why do you think I addressed the last few post to you, making it peronal? Actually they mainly were to vexing since he was the one bashing Christians.
Concernedparent you read what you want to read. But you do NOT GET THIS. I included....Christians "in name only" with humanists. I never said the humanists were responsible for all the evil in the world.
Could you give the link where you got this statistic please?
Whats funny here is that you guys that hate Christians, think that Christianity is the only religion that is exclusive. Muslims also think you are going to hell unless you convert and Jews as well.

reply from: galen

Churchmouse... who died and made you the theology matron..
Jews do not have a hell they have gehinom
try reading this...its not a torah text and quite easy for a lay person to read...
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

reply from: 4given

My 3rd grader was told by his teacher that he could not wear his sweatshirt that read "Would it bother us more if they used guns? Abort73"
He does continue to wear other shirts though, including a Survivors t-shirt that reads "If you were born after 1972 You're a survivor! 1/3 of our generation has been killed before birth". He also wears one that says "Abortion is not a crime, but it should be." My 2nd grader wears a shirt that reads "ab or SH en- noun/ the premeditated murder of who may have become your future husband, wife, sister, brother or best friend."
I am anticipating some issues once they get into middle and high school. I can only imagine the frustration faced by this boy and his parents.

reply from: faithman

Hell by any other name is still hell.

reply from: faithman

Ah, but this is a very interesting point. You imply that the "good" done by men like Gates and Turner is somehow soiled by their allegedly less than noble intentions, despite having no real basis for such an argument other than what you perceive to be the "bad" they have done. You argue that they gave money to fund abortion, and that "ruins everything for you," in other words, because they support abortion, it somehow cancels out the "good" they have done. You say thay "have to" give to charity, as if this detracts from the nobility of giving, but you ignore the fact that they could have given it all to fund abortion. They do not have to care about AIDS. You said "they think AIDS is a worthy cause." Do you?
Carol says Christians are involved as well (in the AIDS cause), but Christians want to solve it by proselytizing. They think if they can only convert the Africans, the problem will be solved. Many think teaching abstinence is the key, and they ignore evidence that abstinence only sex ed has proven ineffective. Many even assert that AIDS is punishment from God for sin...Most Christians are willing to fund abstinence only preventive programs, but none including condom use, even though studies show abstinence only sex ed is ineffective, while proper and consistent use of condoms is highly effective as a preventative measure.
So, yes, Christians donate money to the effort, but the fact that so much of their resouces are wasted on attempts to proselytize "ruins it for me." This brings me to another point I wanted to raise. You also implied that money donated by wealthy non-Christian philanthropists was less meaningful than the time donated by people like Mother Teresa, but seemed willing to ignore the fact that the majority of Christians also only donate money, and are not physically involved.
Before I get off the subject, I have yet another point for you to consider. You are quick to dismiss the good done by non-Christians based on the things they have done that you disagree with, but in the case of Christians, you want credit for all the good they have done. When I point out the fact that they have done the same "wrongs" that "ruined it for you" in the case of non-Christians, you denied that those Christians were really Christians at all, yet still want credit for the "good" they have done! Gee, if you refuse to apply the same standards to both, it is hardly an unbiased comparison, is it? All the arguments you make in an attempt to discredit the good done by non-Christians can be applied to Christians as well, but you side step this observation by denying those Christians are "true Christians," yet, when they do "good" works, you are happy to include them in your numbers!
I have another question...What are your criteria for determining which Christians are "in-name-only?" You spoke of a Christian "living deep in sin" and said such a Christian is a "phony." Don't you assert that all Christians "sin?" How much is "deep?" How much makes a Christian a "phony?" Obviously no Christian thinks s/he is one of the "phonies," yet most will "humbly" admit they sin. It would seem to me the criteria varies from one Christian to another, but there seems to be a single interesting constant here. Generally, Christians have trouble telling me exactly how much "sin" it takes to make the others "phonies," but they all seem to agree that the line is drawn at some point beyond the amount of sin they themselves commit. For example, I have absolutely no doubt that, in your view, however much you "sin," it will fall within the acceptable range in order for you to be a "true Christian." Such is always the case, no matter how many Christions I question...nevermind the fact that the Bible says all who sin are servants of sin, and that no man can serve two masters.
I don't buy it. When I see my name, I assume it is directed at me, personally. Your response was delivered in a condescending manner, and I find it no less offensive for you to veil your insulting demeanor behind a facade of innocence than if you had been more direct. Christians seem to think that if they are only indirectly offensive, it somehow excuses their actions, and many avoid name calling, but still manage to be nasty in less direct ways. One of your favorites seems to be a most clever use of the "LOL." The more upset you are, the more you use it, and it is obviously meant to be condescending while still maintaining a thin facade of political correctness. I am not fooled, and if there is a God, I'm sure He is not either, so what is the point? Why not just be honest and direct.
Spare me the pretense of humility. I am unimpressed.
Ah, here we go...The righteous indignation that follows the pretense of humility. You believe your faith justifies any offense to others. After all, you are only doing your "Christian duty," right?
Now the admission of guilt implied by the "also," but disguised within the accusation, "you are guilty too!" I've danced this dance so many times that it has become very predictable...
Ah, but I am completely without guile or pretense. I readily admit that I found your tone to be condescending, and that my response was retaliatory and entirely intended to be offensive. I do not play games, but say what I mean, and while I can be as childish as you want me to be, I am nothing if not honest and outspoken.
I have made no such demands. I have no objection whatsoever to you sharing your testimony. I merely assert that it is pointless to continue to argue from a "Christian" perspective against those who clearly reject your faith.There comes a point when it becomes obviously self serving, not done to convince others, but to reinforce your own sense of moral superiority.
The scriptures also speak of a time to shake the dust from your feet.
You should undersand me well enough to drop the pretense by now, but then, this is not actually for my benefit, is it?
What fault could you possibly find with "humanism?" Christ was himself a "humanist."
My purpose on this forum is to attempt to convince others to see the pro-life point of view. Your presumed "Christian duty," which you use to justify your own self serving posts, is more of a hindrance than a help in most cases... Even the posts that could legitimately be considered part of your "Christian duty" seem to put the abortion issue as insignificant next to your full Christian agenda.
And you are just as guilty as a stupid punk monkey boy humanist. You have thrown the womb child under the bus several times to promote your false spiritually dead beliefs. Funny how the humanist scum bucket pot, want s to call the Christian pan black. Your purpose on this forum is to be a 5th collum subversive for the bortheads. You are a thinly masked dumb ass pro-abort phony.

reply from: faithman

That is your job as you play God.

reply from: faithman

You could have stopped after the first three words of your post. YOU DON'T THINK. Hey, 3, isn't that how many you killed?

reply from: carolemarie

You can't speak for all Christians. They succumb to greed and have ulterior motives just like everyone else.
And it proves what? That I lied about Clara Barton?
http://www.redcross.org/museum/history/ClaraBarton.asp
I didn't say you lied! I was responding to your post about who founded the Red Cross, Clara or Henry. Apparently he founded the international red cross and she founded the american red cross. Pretty cool.
I think that Christians are quite capable of being wicked. We are fallen human beings and we are certainly not perfect. That doesn't negate the fact that our love for God propels us into service to our fellow man.

reply from: churchmouse

I am no scholar but I can read what the scriptures say.
Yes, you are right. But hell is hell, no matter what word you use to describe it.
Well we are on a public forum discussing, debating issues aren't we?...Is it any wonder that religion would come up?
I do not walk around all day telling people what the scripture says about their future. If the opportunity arrises I take it.
vexing......when you give information or a statistic, you ought to cite where you got the information. You are the one that posted the statistic, you are the one that needs to document the information.
So the world is doing great without Christianity. Honey ask the Muslims in the middle east how life really is? I wonder what the people that went through Sadams shredding machines felt about life a few minutes before being shredded to death? I wonder what Daniel Pearl thought about life in the middle east? How does he feel about it today? Sigh. Wonder what the average woman thinks of her life in the middle east, particularally the ones that had their genitals mutilated.
How about the social unrest in China?
I did not lie about anything.
You have bashed America, priests, Christians.............oh your really sweet.
Its ok for you to make a statement like this...." I'm prejudiced against all bigots and discriminators" just because they dont agree with your viewpoint. And someone that dissagrees with you is wrong for doing the same thing. You basically said, that unless a person agrees with you, you dont like em. LOL How tolerant is that?
You say you don't impose your views and lifestyle on anyone. But you are doing just that. Men and women in America use separate public bathrooms. You might dress like a woman and take hormone therapy, but biologically you still are a man. You dont care how real woman feel about this. You said, your going in and tough luck. That is not imposing?
You said, you keep your beliefs to yourself. Oh it looks like you do alright doesn't it?.
A definition.......
This explains humanism. This was nothing like Jesus.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Christianity-and-Humanism.pdf

reply from: Faramir

What kind of man would colorize classic black and white movies?

reply from: galen

hell is not hell in that case it is peugetory... i see that you and FM like to use the same terminology...
let me spell it out for you.
purgetory you have hope of redemption from.
hell you do not.

reply from: carolemarie

Don't lie.
I said "The 77% of the world population that isn't 'Christian' seems to be getting by just fine."
Thou shalt not bear false witness (except when it makes the enemy look bad).
q]Originally posted by: Vexing

reply from: Skippy

Ya think?
I don't believe in schools stifling free speech by dictating what sort of "message" shirts the students are allowed to wear. I just hope the "message shirt wearers" (all of them, not just the anti-choice message wearers) are prepared to be hassled. Because it WILL happen, any time anyone makes a big deal about their message.
Look on the bright side. It builds character.

reply from: faithman

Ya think?
I don't believe in schools stifling free speech by dictating what sort of "message" shirts the students are allowed to wear. I just hope the "message shirt wearers" (all of them, not just the anti-choice message wearers) are prepared to be hassled. Because it WILL happen, any time anyone makes a big deal about their message.
Look on the bright side. It builds character.
Character being something your pro-death behind totally lacks.

reply from: Skippy

Ya think?
I don't believe in schools stifling free speech by dictating what sort of "message" shirts the students are allowed to wear. I just hope the "message shirt wearers" (all of them, not just the anti-choice message wearers) are prepared to be hassled. Because it WILL happen, any time anyone makes a big deal about their message.
Look on the bright side. It builds character.
Character being something your pro-death behind totally lacks.
Hey, I've worn my share of "message" shirts in less than hospitable environments.
And why are you talking about the character of my butt? That's just creepy.

reply from: faithman

Ya think?
I don't believe in schools stifling free speech by dictating what sort of "message" shirts the students are allowed to wear. I just hope the "message shirt wearers" (all of them, not just the anti-choice message wearers) are prepared to be hassled. Because it WILL happen, any time anyone makes a big deal about their message.
Look on the bright side. It builds character.
Character being something your pro-death behind totally lacks.
Hey, I've worn my share of "message" shirts in less than hospitable environments.
And why are you talking about the character of my butt? That's just creepy.
I agree. There is no creepyer butt on this forum than yours. Kinda stinky to. Wash please.

reply from: Skippy

I agree. There is no creepyer butt on this forum than yours. Kinda stinky to. Wash please.
Wow. You really think I'm the creepiest person on this forum?
I'm shocked and wounded.

reply from: faithman

I agree. There is no creepyer butt on this forum than yours. Kinda stinky to. Wash please.
Wow. You really think I'm the creepiest person on this forum?
I'm shocked and wounded.
Stay away from lamp cords. On second thought....

reply from: Skippy

I agree. There is no creepyer butt on this forum than yours. Kinda stinky to. Wash please.
Wow. You really think I'm the creepiest person on this forum?
I'm shocked and wounded.
Stay away from lamp cords. On second thought....
Tee hee. My favorite crazy anti-abortion guy has a sense of humor.

reply from: faithman

I agree. There is no creepyer butt on this forum than yours. Kinda stinky to. Wash please.
Wow. You really think I'm the creepiest person on this forum?
I'm shocked and wounded.
Stay away from lamp cords. On second thought....
Tee hee. My favorite crazy anti-abortion guy has a sense of humor.
I don't here anybody laughing.

reply from: churchmouse

You said you were empty........LOL, not me. I'll just agree with ya on that one. LOL
Not at all. You are so slow vexing, you miss half of what people post. I NEVER SAID THAT CHRISTIANS WERE NOT PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MANY ATROSITIES THAT HAVE BEEN COMMITTED IN THE NAME OF CHRIST.
You also missed that I said that CHRISTIANS IN NAME ONLY, THE ONES THAT ARENT SAVED, ARE IN THE HUMANIST CATEGORY. They do not walk in the light of Gods Word, they walk in the way of the WORLD.
Honey.......I addressed that in the other thread.....the one where you called me a cow. I addressed the money issue and if anyone should not address you it should be me. You have a vile mouth. Why dont you clean it up and act more lady like. You said you were more woman than any real female on this board didnt you? Why dont you start acting like it?
You dont answer my questions because you cant find a good enough reply to make yourself look good.
Did you ever reply back about the black slave owners in Africa? LOL No I dont think you did, and I know you never will. You like to run.

reply from: faithman

Oh the irony!
From someone who has been running from my question for weeks!
You just sit there and 'LOL' at anything you don't agree with. How 'ladylike' is that? I called you a cow, because you certainly don't act like a lady yourself. You act more like a teenager abusing AOL messenger.
Keep running.
I'll answer your questions when I feel like it and have no obligation to answer them until YOU answer MY question about 'finding' $20,000.
Until you do so, I have full immunity from being accused of 'running away' from questions.
$20,000 to whack a pecker? Don't you have pocket knives down under?

reply from: faithman

A definition.......
This explains humanism. This was nothing like Jesus.
http://www.apologeticspress.or...anity-and-Humanism.pdf
You have got to be kidding. Can I go to the Army of God, who believe their divine duty is to rid this world of the "unrighteous," and use that to "define" Christianity as a group of violent bigots? You simply linked us to an article by one more Christian "hater" who gives his opinion of what humanism means, based on the opinions (or rather, his interpretations of same) of a select group of self professed humanists.
For the last time, this is what a "humanist" is.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hu·man·ist Audio Help /?hyum?n?st or, often, ?yu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hyoo-muh-nist or, often, yoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun
1. a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.
2. a person devoted to or versed in the humanities.
3. a student of human nature or affairs.
4. a classical scholar.
5. (sometimes initial capital letter) any one of the scholars of the Renaissance who pursued and disseminated the study and understanding of the cultures of ancient Rome and Greece, and emphasized secular, individualistic, and critical thought.
6. (sometimes initial capital letter) a person who follows a form of scientific or philosophical humanism.
Did Christ fit the first definition? Was He "a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity?"
I noticed you neglected to address my other responses, choosing only to perpetuate your uncannily unreasonable misconceptions regarding "humanism."
The main thing Christ concerned Himself with was the eternal destination of mankind. He was not a humanist, but God almighty in human flesh. Humanist hate Christ, and are avowed to try and wipe His memory from the earth.

reply from: faithman

A definition.......
This explains humanism. This was nothing like Jesus.
http://www.apologeticspress.or...anity-and-Humanism.pdf
You have got to be kidding. Can I go to the Army of God, who believe their divine duty is to rid this world of the "unrighteous," and use that to "define" Christianity as a group of violent bigots? You simply linked us to an article by one more Christian "hater" who gives his opinion of what humanism means, based on the opinions (or rather, his interpretations of same) of a select group of self professed humanists.
For the last time, this is what a "humanist" is.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
hu·man·ist Audio Help /?hyum?n?st or, often, ?yu-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hyoo-muh-nist or, often, yoo-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun
1. a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.
2. a person devoted to or versed in the humanities.
3. a student of human nature or affairs.
4. a classical scholar.
5. (sometimes initial capital letter) any one of the scholars of the Renaissance who pursued and disseminated the study and understanding of the cultures of ancient Rome and Greece, and emphasized secular, individualistic, and critical thought.
6. (sometimes initial capital letter) a person who follows a form of scientific or philosophical humanism.
Did Christ fit the first definition? Was He "a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity?"
I noticed you neglected to address my other responses, choosing only to perpetuate your uncannily unreasonable misconceptions regarding "humanism."
The main thing Christ concerned Himself with was the eternal destination of mankind. He was not a humanist, but God almighty in human flesh. Humanist hate Christ, and are avowed to try and wipe His memory from the earth.
I'm a humanist, and I don't hate Christ. Christ taught love for your fellow man, which clearly implies "humanism." I know that really chaps your hide, doesn't it? Christians have been condemning humanism for a long time, apparently without understanding what the hell it is! Of course, I understand all that was simply the result of a desire to condemn everyone who is not Christian.....
I don't have to condemn them, they are condemned already.

reply from: faithman

If they're "condemned already," what is the point in trying to convert them? If they can still get "saved" then they must not be "condemned already." I thought everybody had to stand before God and be judged? If that's so, then how can anybody be already "saved" or condemned? I think your "religion" has turned your brain to mush.
You claim to have read the book but missed this corner stone of what it teaches? All human beings were born condemned. It is the acceptance of Christ that lifts the condemnation. The very point of trying to convert them is to aviod the condemnation that passed upon all mankind thru Adam.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

reply from: faithman

For one who claims to be SSSSSSSOOOOOOO smart you are actually really dumb and willingly ignorant.

reply from: faithman

You have got me confused with someone else and only posted this overlong post to cause confussion. It is futher proof that the scripture I posted aplies to you. You prefer your monkey boy humanist darkness, rather than simply come to the lite. Wicked means one who twists. you just love to twist the truth, and peoples words, to cloud things in your humanist darkness. I could, but will not answere your foolishness because you don't really want an answere. you being a fool want to profess yourself to be wise. So mock God all you please. you are the one who will answere for it not me. You are nothing. Just a little sniveling jail house wife punk whom I owe nothing.

reply from: faithman

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

reply from: faithman

Hey look, it's learned how to cut and paste!
Soon we can train it to perform simple tasks!
Originally posted by: faithman I have a good ole hound that helps keep my place safe from intruders. He has a healthy bark, and at 70 plus pounds is somewhat of an imposing sight to those who walk by. I don't know if he would bite, but he has the teeth to get the job done if need be. Prolife is suposed to be the watch dog for the womb child. It is suposed to be the "defender" of life. But just like an ole dog with no teeth, it poses no real threat to those who would steal life from the ones it claims to protect. Once an intruder finds out that the barking dog has no bite, they know full well they can cause harm with totally disreguard for consiquence of being bit. The sad thing is that the pro-life watch dog didn't lose it's teeth in a fight, nor because it grew old. It lost it's teeth because false leaders pulled them by taking the bite of lethal force off of the table. The abortion industry knows full well that the "pro-life bark" has no bite, and they can continue to kill the womb child because the child's guardian has no teeth to protect them with. Any prolife hound who refuses to have their teeth pulled, have traitors like Pravone willing to pay a $50,000 bounty to not only have their teeth pulled, but have them put to sleep with lethal injection by a pro-abort government. There needs to be a new dog in the yard, with good strong teeth willing to bite the intruder of abortion. true watch dogs are willing to lay down their lives for the ones they protect. Paul Hill was a true pro-life watch dog with a 12 gage bite, who laid down his life for those he protected. We can keep barking our meanigless toothless debate, that pro-deathers mock and laugh at, Or we can say the dog has teeth, and if you come after our womb child charges expect to get bit. Then, and only then, will bortheads take us seriously.

reply from: churchmouse

Running? Put up or shut up vexing. What have I not answered? I have answered everything. As far as I am concerned, when someone calls people names like you do........THEY DO NOT DESERVE A REPLY. You are very immature.
And your telling me how to act like a lady. Ok I'm gonna laugh at that one, sorry. LOL
You won't answer because you can't. Ya have to come up with some excuse to take away from the fact that you just cant answer.
I already answered that question in another forum. I said, its not the responsiblity of anyone else to find you money to cut your maleness off. Its your responsibility. God created you male, and IMO you will always be male.
With any surgery comes risks.......so what? You think someone owes you? They dont.
_______________________________________________________________
So Concernedparent.........the definition of a humanist comes only from the site you pick out as being true?
Heres a humanist society from Michigan. It does not say secualar humanist......it says humanist.
Look at how they define a humanist.
"To create a community of humanists, atheists, agnostics and freethinkers who can support each other throughout the life span.......To provide a forum for intelligent exchange of ideas for those seeking fulfillment in an ethical secular life.......To develop through open discussion the moral basis of a secular society and encourage ethical practices within our own membership and the community at large......To develop educational programs focusing on secular ethics, science, history and critical thinking for members, their children, and the public at large as alternatives to supernatural interpretations of the human condition.....
To take action within our communities, and within the world at large, to improve the conditions of humanity and denounce bigotry, intolerance, and the persecution of ideas........To support and defend the principles of democracy, free speech, and the separation of state and church as expressed in the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights."
http://www.glhumanist.org/

If you think this represents Christianity and Christians in any way, you are wrong. Its the opposite fof Christianity.
Christ said, "I am the ONLY WAY....to the FATHER." Humanists reject people like Christ.
"Humanism is a non-theistic way of thinking and living that draws its knowledge from science, its inspiration from art, and its motivation from compassion. It is based on the belief that each person is unique and valuable, and that we must all rely on each other to improve the world and the condition of humankind. Humanism asserts that we must each take responsibility for ourselves and for the communities in which we live, not relying on beliefs in supernatural forces or GOD to intervene in our behalf. Humanism emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, individual freedom, human values and the need for tolerance and cooperation. (See the Humanism and Its Aspirations.)"
Humanists reject the idea of God. They make up the rules.......its all about people being glorified instead of God. HUMANISTS DO NOT NEED GOD, they deny HIm.
Humanism is a non-theistic way of thinking and living that draws its knowledge from science
Why are you so embarrassed by these definitions? You dont believe in God......and neither do other humanists.
So tell me is this humanist website, this humanist organization all wrong?
I have got a bunch more sites......and guess what Concerned.....they all say the same things.
Here is another organization from Houston. Here is their definition.
"Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for building a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality."
Click on the list of humanists at the end there and you will see they have one thing in common..........THEY ALL REJECT GOD.
http://www.glhumanist.org/

Oh heres a good one.........MONEY IS EVERYTHING TO HUMANISTS. Did Christ say that? Would He think that was true?
This website stated that, "Fifth, it affirms the freedom of ideas and beliefs."
Jesus said, He was the TRUTH. And all beliefs should be in Him.
http://www.humanism.org/what_is_new_humanism/humanist_statement.php

Another site....The Great Southern Humanist Society
"We take the positive position that Humanism by definition is naturalistic, scientific, and secular."
http://humanism.meetup.com/164/about/

I could go on citing website after website....but they all say the same thing.
Lets drop it because neither one of us is going to give in on this one. I believe the sites I gave show what humanism is and they show you to be wrong.

reply from: churchmouse

Christians in name only.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14). Christ said here few will be saved.
First of all people can decieve people but people can't decieve God. He is the ONLY one that knows what is in peoples hearts. Saying your a Christian does not make you one. We can look at how people live that claim to be Christian. Their actions have to line up with the scriptures.
There is only ONE ROAD that leads to God. A Christian has to recognize this. You cant serve two masters. And most Christians today do just that.
True Christians live to glorify God in everything they do. They base all decisions on the scriptures and not the world. The acknowledge what Christ did and they take the Great Commission seriously. They live this worldview everywhere they go 2-7.
All Christians sin. We cant be perfect no matter how hard we try. Before I was born again, I did not live my faith. I acknowledged that I believed in God.....but I still wanted the reins. I couldnt give everything to Him. I thought MY PLAN....was the right way.......now I believe that GODS PLAN is best. I give everything to Him.
I sin a lot less today, than I did when I was not walking with God. I avoid situations that might compromise my faith, that might show people that I am not an authentic Christian. Example.
A lot of people I know went to see the new movie, Sex in the City. I knew that it would contain sex. Sex that God would not glorify. So I would never go. I dont go to bars.......I stay away from anyplace I think Satan has control over.
I am witnessing to my sons friend. So if he happened to be at the movie theatre and I walked out of the Sex in the City what would he think?
I sin less, I am more aware of how I am to live and how to glorify God.
I have an accountability partner. She is a friend in one of the bible studies that I go to. We pray together and when I have moments of weakness, when she does we depend on each other for spiritual guidance and advice. We base it on scriptures. She is a sister in Christ.
It is not hard to see how we are to live if you read the scriptrues.
The problem with most Christians is that they dont want to be accountable they dont want to give God everything. "Oh whats a little sin......I do good works........I'll worry about that when I am older."
Excuses.........God wont except excuses.

reply from: faithman

Come again? Most Christians do what you say can't be done? The Bible certainly says you can't serve two masters, and it also says that he who sins is the servant of sin. So, if a Christian sins, is s/he serving God or sin? You can't serve both. It says so in the Bible...
Does sinning "glorify God?"
Well, not on your own maybe, but are you really telling me that after you accept the Holy Spirit, you still have to sin? Do you believe what the Bible says? Do you have the faith of a mustard seed? If you say God can't keep you free from sin, wouldn't that kind of be like calling God a liar?
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Hmmm. It would seem to me that you could not sin if you really wanted to...Is the Bible the word of God? Is God a liar?
So, who's the liar here? Is it God? If you prayed to God to be free of sin, believing, is it "impossible" for God to grant you what you ask? Or is it that you don't really believe? Or perhaps you don't really want to be free of sin?
And yet you say "all Christians sin," and seem to be making excuses by saying "I sin a lot less today, than I did when I was not walking with God?"
Gee, I thought you were going to help me out here. How will I ever learn to figure out who the "true Christians" are? From what you have told me (if I trust it is all true), I must conclude that there are no "true Christians..."
Before I was born again, I did not live my faith. I acknowledged that I believed in God.....but I still wanted the reins. I couldnt give everything to Him. I thought MY PLAN....was the right way.......now I believe that GODS PLAN is best. I give everything to Him.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

reply from: faithman

I was under the impression that a dictionary was the proper place to find a definition....It just occurred to me that you completely dodged my question.
Did Christ fit the first definition? Was He "a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity?"
"Yes" or "no?"
No. He could care less about human values. He came to establish divine values, and save man from himself. Man has no real dignaty outside of God. In and of themselves, there is no good thing in man at all. You should know that everytime you look in the mirror.

reply from: faithman

I was under the impression that a dictionary was the proper place to find a definition....It just occurred to me that you completely dodged my question.
Did Christ fit the first definition? Was He "a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity?"
"Yes" or "no?"
No. He could care less about human values. He came to establish divine values, and save man from himself. Man has no real dignaty outside of God. In and of themselves, there is no good thing in man at all. You should know that everytime you look in the mirror.
"Human values" refers to our views of "right and wrong." Christ was not concerned about this? Gee, He sure spent a lot of time going on about it, didn't He?
No dignity outside of God? Bit with God, then dignity? I'm pretty sure Christ was on about that as well...
I truly don't understand why you guys insist on attempting to distance yourself from what I consider to be a good thing, and something Christ would surely relate to and approve of...It seems kind of unreasonable to me, but I suppose I should expect no less, huh?
Without Christ, you do not have the power to reason about spiritual things. As a humanist natural man they are foolishness to you. You prove that quite regularly here. Professing yourself to be wise, you are a fool. A spiritually bankrupt fool, and the wrath of God abides on you. Best do something about that before you close your eyes for the last time.

reply from: churchmouse

Christ is God. There is no other way to say it than just that. He is God over all creation.
He came to earth in human form but He was and is still God.
He came for one reason. He came to save us. That is how much He loved us. God gave His only Son so that we might live.
There are different dictionaries Concerned, you quote only one. I give at least a dozen sites and they all use the same definition.
Jesus loved mankind but that does not make him a humanist. You obviously are the only one that thinks so........because He does not fit the definition of any website of actual humanists that I found.
This one from International Humanist Society.
"Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities."
It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality.
As a life stance rooted in rational thinking, modern Humanism provides a way of understanding our universe in naturalistic rather than in supernatural terms. It offers men and women, both as individuals and as members of society, a secular ethics grounded in human values.
http://
]http://www.iheu.org/taxonomy/term/52

">http://www.iheu.org/taxonomy/term/52[/h
The American Humanist Association
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Humanist_Association)

Their definition is......the same as the International Humanist Society
Read the section on STATUS.
"Today, therefore, the AHA is recognized by the U.S. Internal Revenue Service as a nonprofit, tax exempt, 501 (c)(3), publicly supported educational organization."
"The AHA strives to be vocal on issues of major concern to Humanists; reaching out to media and opinion leaders as well as keeping its members informed about the issues of the day. The AHA also has helped establish or foster several organizations that promote Humanist ideals, such as NARAL Pro-Choice America, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry, Rational Recovery, and others.[citation needed]
The American Humanist Association currently has groups in more than 30 states and publishes the Humanist magazine and the philosophical journal, Essays in the Philosophy of Humanism. The AHA is also the publisher of the Humanist Manifestos I, II, and III."
This is the opposite of Christianity, and what Christ stands for. A humanist rejects the supernatural.........God.
FREE FROM RELIGION AND GOD.
http://www.ffrf.org/

I am a person that acknowledges first.... my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I also acknowledge the Bible as the Word of God. It was penned by men that God handpicked to get His message out to the lost. It is without error, and God breathed. Because I believe this, I take what God said seriously. I believe Jesus reduced twelve laws into two commandments basically. Jesus said, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." THIS IS THE FIRST AND GREATEST COMMANDMENT. Jesus said, " Love your neighbor as yourself."
All the laws and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Matthew 22:37-40
I am concerned about the salvation of those I love. And I love everyone. The Great Commission tells me to spread the Word, and I do that every chance I get. I do it for ONE REASON.....TO GLORIFY GOD. Do humanists glorify God? No. They cant, because they deny He exists. They do it for themselves and for mankind.
I care about people because God cares about me and He loved me enough to die for me. I do not want anyone to perish. But they will without Christ.
Well you are a humanist so your values come from opinion. And you know what they say about opinions. My opinion doesnt stack up against Gods, He is always right and He knows what is best for me, even if I dissagree with it. A Christians values come from GOD. God tells us what is right and what is wrong. We glorify Him when we obey His commands, we are separated from Him when we sin, because He is perfect and will not tolerate sin.
Christ was concerned for the lost. The lost are those that deny Him. He came save us.
He lived a perfect life. He was without sin.
And I dont understand why you are embarrassed by the definition of humanism that all these websites gave? You deny there is a God, right? So.......you are not a theist, you reject God. Basically humanism is really a religion. It is a worldview the same as Christianity or Islam or Judaism.
Christ talked about hell more than He ever did about heaven. Why? Why was He so concerned about the unsaved on earth?
We dont give our life meaning......God does. He saves us, guides us, His plan for our lives we accept, whether we think that plan is right or not. God is the only truth. We cant rely on our own capabilities, we will ALWAYS COME UP SHORT. We need God, we need to give Him the reins of our lives. Its like that song that Carrie Underwood made famous. JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL. It means we must give everything over to Him.

reply from: churchmouse

Most of them use the International one Concerned.
Look at the origins of humanism....the Greeks. They thought man was the measure of all things. That led into the Roman civilization....the Hellenistic culture and of course Aquinas who actually layed the foundation for humanism. Ironic that such a sainted man like he was would be the one responsible for one of the most, IMO that is..... hopeless religions in the world. One that gives human wisdom equal weight to biblical revelations. He certainly opened the door for free-thinking educators thats for sure. And the result....the wisdom of God was discarded. Mans wisdom became the truth, Gods wisdom become error. You look at the great humanists.......Voltaire, Rousseau....and as of late.......Dewey. He certainly eradicated Christ from the education scene didnt he? And here we are today.....humanists in control of our schools, what better way to control the masses than to brainwash our young children.
Most those websites that I gave for humanists, say the same thing about their core prinicples.
Yes there are. As many as organizations around the world that back up what I present here. They are organizations that back up the famous, Manifestos.
I have played football before Concerned but does that make me an NFL football player? I watch the NFL.......I have played football, so am I an NFL Football player?
Jesus did care for all His creation. He more than cared.......He died for us all. But the definition you gave,
"A believer in the principles of humanism."
goes beyond this. It does not make him a humanist. The definition you give humanism incorporates a lot of other prinicples, which Jesus did not connect with. Because He cared about humanity.......that makes Him a humanist? You fail to take account for all the other things that go with this worldview. HE WAS NOT DEVOTED TO HUMANISM AND THE SPREAD OF HUMANISM. He came as God, to save humanists that were living without Him.

"a student of human nature and human affairs
a student of the humanities
an adherent of any system of humanism
a follower of Humanism'
http://www.yourdictionary.com/humanist

He did not follow anything or anyone. People followed Him. A student? Christ was the teacher. A humanistic system? His was about salvation and truth. He did not follow anything........He was here for us to be able to follow HIm.
A student of the humanities? What college did he attend Concerned?
These definitions say the same thing. And funny, the people all over the world that are proud to call themselves humanists, all basically are united on a few important tennants of their faith, or worldview. God is not a part of this. Read the Humanist Manifesto.
Not one of those definitions you gave said anything about belief in Christ, in God, in the Holy Spirit.
A humanist is more than a person that believes in helping humans. Its a worldview, its a religion.
Me embarrassed about anything? LOL
Pleaze......I acknowledge my abortion so that people could judge my actions...I do not deny my faith in Christ.....I would say I am pretty out there wouldnt you? I am a human being......I am NOT A HUMANIST.
I understood you were an agnostic? What are your beliefs then?
Yes it is and the government even gave it tax exempt status. You obviously did not read the sites I gave you.
And I have answered this numerous times obviously you it went over your head.
YOU CAN BE A GREAT PERSON, DO WONDERFUL THINGS, GIVE MONEY, HELP THE POOR, AND STILL DENY CHRIST. HUMANISTS DO IT..........TO PLEASE WHOM? They do it to please the World, Christians do it to glorify and praise God. They acknowledge that God, that Christ is the Center of ALL THEY DO.
Another one of your definitions.
"Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities."
We stand on God. Our views, our plans dont come first...God does. Its not our plan for our lives that is important its Gods plan for us. He is truth.......there is nothing to seek, except having a relationship with HIm. Christ is the Truth. He gives shape to our lives. Humanists find the truth that fits for their own lives. A humane society is based on the scriptures and Christ. It is not that way with humanism.
This is futile............
What statement? In a paragraph please state your worldview then.
A Christian should follow Christ. He should in every word, deed, action......do it for ONE REASON, TO GLORIFY GOD. If we glorify God by doing what the scriptures say to do......then we walk in the light, we are on that path. We can glorify God in many ways, but foremost by loving..... loving even our enemy. We want to spread the gospel because without Christ, many will remain lost for all eternity. and if you love them, you want to share the GOOD NEWS with them.
I am a Christian and I put NOTHING, NO TERM ABOVE IT. I am a CHRISTIAN FIRST, LAST AND IN BETWEEN. That is what you dont seem to get.
I do need anyother label other than that of the Christian one. I think it says it all.
What do you see when you look at the word........HUMANISM? You see the root word, human dont you?
When you look at the word Christian...........What is the root word? CHRIST.
It is all about Christ and nothing about us. We are not equal to God and we need Him to direct our lives. Humanists do not. They do not look heavenward for answers....they look to education and science. Man will not solve the worlds problems without God........humanists try to do just that.
They didn't receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be judged who didn't believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Romans 1:22-25
I WILL NOT BELIEVE THE LIE.
http://www.christianparents.com/humanism.htm

Last night I poured through information about Christian Humanism. Here is a statement I found interesting.
"Christian humanism is the belief that human freedom and individualism are intrinsic (natural) parts of, or are at least compatible with, Christian doctrine and practice. It is a philosophical union of Christian and humanist principles."
There is no need for any union. Christ is sufficient. These are people obviously that dont think the scriptures are enough. They talk about compatability here......between what man thinks is important and what God thinks is important. Its like looking at God and saying......ok you come down a bit and maybe our views will find common ground.
Its like a sinner trying to find an out....an excuse for his sin.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one I am afraid. Cause to be real honest with you, I see humanism in these terms.......atheism, statism, socialism that leads to chaos and despair. I think that is where we are today. What the Bible is to Christians, the Humanist Manifesto is to humanists. Its their bible and it represents their position on ideas and goals. The only salvation humanists offer is from life itself.......very unlike what Christ came and did.
I've read the Humanistic Manifesto........its really a blueprint to take over the world.......dont even get me started.

reply from: churchmouse

concerned, what is your worldview?
Or are you embarrassed to share it?

reply from: churchmouse

Boy thats a short abbreviated version of a worldview if I have ever heard of one.
A worldview is just the sum total of our beliefs about the world, the big picture that directs our daily decisions and actions. So.......
Do you believe in God? Or are you athiest? Agnostic?
Where do you find the answers to things in your life.
A worldview is more than just caring about people. I think you can explain it better than that cant you?

reply from: churchmouse

So you are calling me out on my beliefs. Fine.
First tell me how you think I am not a Christian.
What am I doing wrong? Where am I inconsistent?
Then I will address you.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You say you continue to sin. Why are you asking me to repeat what you have failed to address twice? Yeah, I realize you would be more comfortable asking the questions here than answering, but quid pro quo. I have already provided what you request.
Come again? Most Christians do what you say can't be done? The Bible certainly says you can't serve two masters, and it also says that he who sins is the servant of sin. So, if a Christian sins, is s/he serving God or sin? You can't serve both. It says so in the Bible...
Does sinning "glorify God?"
Well, not on your own maybe, but are you really telling me that after you accept the Holy Spirit, you still have to sin? Do you believe what the Bible says? Do you have the faith of a mustard seed? If you say God can't keep you free from sin, wouldn't that kind of be like calling God a liar?
Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Hmmm. It would seem to me that you could not sin if you really wanted to...Is the Bible the word of God? Is God a liar?
So, who's the liar here? Is it God? If you prayed to God to be free of sin, believing, is it "impossible" for God to grant you what you ask? Or is it that you don't really believe? Or perhaps you don't really want to be free of sin?
And yet you say "all Christians sin," and seem to be making excuses by saying "I sin a lot less today, than I did when I was not walking with God?"
Gee, I thought you were going to help me out here. How will I ever learn to figure out who the "true Christians" are? From what you have told me (if I trust it is all true), I must conclude that there are no "true Christians..."
If you still sin, I'm not convinced that you "give everything to Him."
The goal of Christianity is to create saints; those who don't sin. The goal is to come to maturity, completeness. The Bible absolutely, positively requires the students to quit sinning, totally! God is the master Potter who is crafting us into a useful vessel; into one who quits sinning.
The deceived believe they have "accepted Christ" and have a free ticket to float off to heaven. They have no faith and do not bedlieve God can deliver them from the law of sin and death (bad habits/entanglement in sin that leads to death).
99% of "Christians" are clueless; they are not Christians at all. Of course, the bible is a parable so that people will not understand and, obviously, they don't understand. They have ears that are dull of hearing and eyes that are dim.
"Sin is the transgression of the law." (I John 3:4) All the law is based on two principals: love God, love your neighbor. Whoever does not love is an adversary and murderer. No murderer has eternal life. "God is love."
You must quit sinning to move from death to life, a sinner is a hater and murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life (see my signature).

reply from: churchmouse

CONCERNED you did not state your worldview and obviously you really have a problem doing this.
You are implying that it is impossible to be a Christian because no one can be saved and sin at the same time.
I'll start at the beginning.
We are sinners. We are born with sin.
Good is not enough to get to heaven. Loving your neighbor, tithing to the church, giving to the poor, any good work etc...they are NOT enough. The scriptures say that unless you call on the name of Christ and acknowledge him publically, that you believe He came for your sin and confess asking forgiveness, asking Christ to be your personal savior you will not have eternal life with Him. You MUST be born again.
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life." Christ did not say, that He was one of many ways........He said He was THE way.

So Concerned.......Unless you are born-again, you cannot enter.

Jesus came to earth because of our sin. Many believe they will go to heaven because they are "good people." Without Christ, even "good people" are condemned in God's eyes.
"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation" (2 Corinthians 7:10, NIV).
Romans 1:17-18 says, In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
THE FACTS.....
Christ came because we are sinners.
Everyone can be saved if they repent and ask forgiveness.
The entrance into the kingdom isn't based on heritage, what country you belong to, but the kingdom is personal and the entrance to it, are repentance and SPIRITUAL REBIRTH.
Can a Christian be lost? Some people believe that you can lose your salvation, I do not. I am talking here specifically born again Christians. If you think that you can lose salvation if you sin......then one little sin would break your salvation. God would then be a liar. Anyone that says they live without sin in their life is a liar. We cant live sinless lives. However when we sin, we should look heavenward to God and ask forgiveness. I believe He blesses those that try to live on the path......He also spanks those that live in sin and do not try. That does not mean they cant be saved.
The key verse for me is this one found in 1 John 1:9. As long as you have faith in Jesus as your Savior then I believe that you will go to heaven no matter how many sins you commit. God is faithful to forgive our sins when we confess them to Him.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:18)
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24)
A saint is a person that has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior. In the Bible Saints never stopped being normal people - teachers, farmers, doctors, fishermen, homemakers.... The normal people of the churches were as much saints as the most famous ones Peter and Paul ( Romans 15:26).
Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
1Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints
http://www.gracepoints.com/articles/gpsaint.php

Although we strive for perfection in Christ, we can never achive it, or we would be like Christ, perfect. Saints are not infallible, good but not perfect. Jesus was the perfect one, the ONLY perfect one. Scripturally speaking, the "saints" are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints.
You are right, we should stop sinning period. But has anyone ever done this? Has there ever been a person that could live his/her life without sin? No.
That is why Christ came, because we couldnt, we cant never do it without Him.
The only ticket is to accept Christ. He saves those that ask, that repent. He saves those that He truely knows have accepted Him. And only God knows someones heart, and if in fact they are sincere. If Hitler had fully accepted Christ, before his death, God too would have shown him grace. The same grace that he shows everyone if they accept Him. God can deliver and He keeps His promises. God can deliver us there is no doubt. And He will be there everytime we fall. He knows our hearts..... even in our sin and knows if we truely repent.
After all, we all commit sins, and anyone who claims that he does not sin is deceiving himself (1 John 1:8-10). The Bible is clear that when God justifies a sinner, He clears his guilt, past, present and future. The sinner is declared righteous on the basis of the propitiatory and substitutionary death of Christ.
This is a good website.
http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theological-issues-23/can-christians-lose-their-salvation-31.html

A child cant lose his/her biological relationship with his parents. Everyone that is born, had a mother, had a father. This relationship can never be changed. A child of God is characterized by the indwelling Holy Spirit, that also can never change. To say that a person can lose their own salvation is in effect saying that they are God.
http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/Page3/Page3_8.html

godslaw I am not sure what you mean here,
I agree that the majority of those that call themselves Christians really aren't......but did I understand you right....do you think the entire bible is a parable? There are parables in the bible......but curious as to how you interpret the scriptures.
Do you believe Noah actually took animals into the ark? Do you believe Jesus walked on water, healed the sick, raised the dead? Did He part the sea?
A Christian gets life when he becomes born again. He is promised salvation. Did the murderer on the cross go straight to heaven when Jesus said this, ""TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE" ?
(Luke 23:43)
God promised this sinner (the thief), that had never walked in the light, never been baptised, but had lived in sin his whole life.......He gave him forgiveness and salvation. Why? Because he believed and took a leap of faith. The thief separated himself from the other sinner that was hanging on the other side of Christ and the crowd there to watch Him die. He got saved just in time.
God is more than willing to stoop down to us. The phrase "you will be with me" is what the Bible is all about, the reason Jesus came to live and die. He wants fellowship with us.
The apostle Paul killed Christians before coming to know Christ. Your telling me that he penned a great portion of Gods Word and he will not go to heaven?
We have all sinned. If you have broken one sin, you have broken them all. So that makes us all guilty before God. So by your interpretation......no one goes.

Concerned and YOUR WORLDVIEW IS WHAT?
You an athiest, agonostic, humanist, muslim, what?
I know your not a jew.........thats for sure. LOL

reply from: churchmouse

Like its that hard to just come out and say, "Yes, I believe in God, or no I dont? It puts you out that much? LOL
You are confusing I'm sorry. In previous threads you talk both ways.
No I cant. How can I when you dont know really what you believe.
You just said your an agnostic. ""agnostic" would be the closest fit"
Yet you beleive in God....but your agnostic? Come on concerned, you cant be both. You either do, you dont or you dont know. You are saying two completely opposite things here. And you wonder why I am confused?
___________________
If that were true, no one would be going because everyone that has ever lived has not led a sinless life.
concerned said, "Do you really think that when Christ said those who "believe on" Him are saved, that literally meant all you had to do was believe?"
Yes. If you are saved and you are walking in the Light of Gods Word, you then show this by the fruits you sow. No one sows good fruits in Gods eyes that is deep in sin, because sin separates you from God.
Yes Satan believes that he will eventually win. He believed that he could be equal to god. Thats what got him into trouble in the first place.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
But if you have accepted Christ, and given it all to Him, then you would never believe that you could be God. I dont pray and ask God to make me equal to Him. I am sure God has boundaries.
Christ saved this sinner right before he died. And the thief had led a sinful life. Like I said before.......he had not been baptized, never done good works in Christs name........HE SIMPLY BELIEVED.
I don't think you understand what happens at the time someone is saved. .....When I asked Him into my heart, Jesus' death then canceled the bond that stood against me (Col. 2:14). The guilt of the original sin disapeared and He pardoned me. Salvation is an ongoing process in my life, its becoming holy, and doing what God commands me as His child to do. God knows I cant make it witout Him and when I fall, I look to Him. He is my Father.
We can all strive to be perfect in different ways......but do we know there is even such a thing as perfectness? Tiger Woods, greatest golfer in the world, is he perfect? NO. But he continually strives towards perfectness in his game. And as Christians we should do the same. Just because I am a Christian, does not mean by any stretch of the imagination, that my life will be perfect, that I will ever please God perfectly because I simply cant. Of course I ask God for what I want.........He then gives me what He wants me to have and I accept it whether I like it or not. His plan is perfect not mine.
"What happens is that I do, not the good I will to do, but the evil I do not intend. But if I do what is against my will, it is not I who do it, but sin which dwells in me" (Rom 7:19-20).
I am in no way a biblical scholar, I am simply a Saint, a sinner saved by the Grace of God. I read and rely on the scriptures on how I will live my life. I however look to what Christ said in HIS own words. These are the most important scriptures in the entire Bible for me. And He said there is only one way to heaven. This is the most important point in the entire bible to get. That the only way is Christ. You can debate Calvanism, works, baptism.....etc,,,,,,until the cows come home and as the great theologians have already done......but when it comes right down to it.......its what Christ said, and what He did that matters.
God says you must be born again. Salvation is found in no one else.

Christ said, "I am the Way"...........did He mean there are multiple ways? NO
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." John 3:5-8
When I recieved Christ He became mine I became His. This is available to everyone that asks.
Acts 10:3 says, "All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name."
Through whose name? Muhammed? Allah? Buddah? Darwin?
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Romans 5:1
Works? How do be become justified?
Justified = Just-as-if-I'd never done it.
Romans 10:3 says, "As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;"

All tht matters to me is this Concerned
I am a sinner..........God paid for my sins.
I was guilty.............Christ was punished for bearing MY GUILT.
When I was lost.......Christ sought to seek and save me.
When I hurt...........He not only suffered but feels my pain.
When I am lonely....He died to be my friend.
My debt to God is paid in full. It was when I accepted Him that my sin was atoned for, my enemy defeated. I believe in Him, and recieved Him into my Heart. I turn away from sin, am I perfect no, but I strive to be. I simply follow Him. Do I understand everything........no. I do not need too. What He said and did is enough for me.
He talked about hell more than He talked about ANYTHING else. Why? That should make anyone want to sit up and take notice.
And when I die, and go to be with Him......all things will be revealed. And it can happen for you to concerned if you ask Him into you heart.
Jesus said, "You must be born again." John 3:7
Do born again people sin........? Yes. And when we do, he knows our hearts to know if in fact we are truely repentant. If we are and get back on that narrow path.....he blesses us for doing so. For those that don't........He spanks and disciples. I know that during the times in my Christian walk when I am not praying and glorifying Him enough.....I feel differently than when I am. Christianity isnt a religion........its all about a relationship, the relationship we have with Christ. And like any relationship, if you want to be close to someone you put the time and effort into it. A Christian should read the scriptures daily, worship with others that also love Christ and that will lift them up in their own walk. God did not intend us to do this alone. We should surround ourselves with people that also love God.
"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[a] sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." 1 John 1:5-10
Romans 8:2-25 says,
Faith and Hope
"For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently."
I don't need to understand everything. I have everything I need right now.

reply from: churchmouse

nancy just curious as to what your worldview is, do you mind sharing it?
You know why dont you read what the scriptures say themselves about this. You seem to think you know and have knowledge about this. I gave you enough scriptures that explain this.
Certainly the sin separates one from God. Remember the scripture I gave about past sins and future sins being forgiven?
Does a parent kick a small child out of the house simply because they disobey from time to time? After the child admits his wrong, takes punishment.......then things start over.
Ok, I'll state this again.
What happens when a Christian sins, and what are the results?
When a Christian sins their legal standing before God is unchanged. Their debt was pain in full the minute they accepted Christ and sanctification happened. And to do this......they must have.....Admitted the sin in their life. (Rom 3:23) Know that the penalty for sin is death. (Rom 6:23) Acknowledge that Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for their sin. (Rom 5:8) To admit this is NOT enough to be saved however. There also must be an invitation for a personal response on part of the person who will repent of his or her sins and trust personally in Christ.
Read Matthew 11:28-30
A Christian is still forgiven. Romans 8:1 says,
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
This says that salvation is not based on merit but is a free gift for those who are in CHRIST JESUS.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
This says Christs death paid for all our sins -past, present and future. Christ died for our sins.
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" 1 Cor 15:3
We still keep our "justification."
If we sin we still are children of God and we still are a member of His family. I have pointed this scriptrue out to you several times. I'll do it once again.
The apostle Paul says in 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." Paul also reminds us that, "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2
The fact that w have sin in our lives does not mean that we lose our status as Gods children. In theological terms we keep our adoption.
Sin does however disrupt and damage our Christian life. When we sin, even though God loves us, he is displeased. He is no different then the parent who is dissapointed in a child that disobeys.
Again Paul tells us that its possible that Christians....."grieve the Holy Spirit of God." Eph 4:30. When we sin we cause Him sorrow and He is displeased with us.
Here is the catcher. The author of Hebrews reminds us that "the Lord disciplines those He loves." Hebrews 12:6
"FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
and "Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness." Hebrews 12:9-10
Like a parent disciples his children, so God disciplines His children.
Christ in Revelation had this to say. Rev 3:19 says, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
In this verse we see sin and love together, they are connected.
The New Testament attests to the displeasure of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit when believers sin there is no doubt about that. When we sin as Christians its not only our personal relationship with God that is disrupted. Our Christian life and fruitfulness in ministry are also damaged.
Jesus said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." John 15:4.
So when we get off that narrow path, when we stray from the fellowship we have with HIm, because of the sin in our lives, we very much diminish the degree to which we are abiding in Christ. Destructive consequences can happen. Paul rebuked the Christians in his day about the sins they were committing. He said thy would become slaves of sin. Romans 6:16 He told them that God wanted them on the path of increasing righteousness. He also told them that they would lose heavenly rewards. Not lose salvation but the rewards they would get in heaven.
Look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
"Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,' each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
We wll all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10
There are definately degrees of reward in heaven and that sin has negative consequnces in trm of loss of heavenly reward. God knows when a person repeats sins with a willfull and knowing heart. Those sins are more displeasing to God. Sin out of ignorance and that are not repeated and are followd with genuine remorse and repentance God takes into account. I am not saying that unintentional sin is not sin. Lev 5:17. What I am saying is the penalties that result from sin are less than in the case of ones doen intentionally.
In the cross we have a clear demonstration of why God punishes sin. If He didnt he would not be a righteous God and there would be no justice in the world. When sin is punished God is showing Himself to be a righteous judge over all His creation.
This of course has nothing to do with unbelievers. Unbelievers or those outside of Christ, and in a state of bondage or enslavement to sin. Heb 11:6
"Without faith it isn't possible to please God. Those who come to God must believe that he exists. And they must believe that he rewards those who look to him.'



About your worldview....you obviously are not even sure yourself, that much is obvious. You have said, I have shown, that you said two things.
You mention God........then you say your views are like an agnostic.
You can't sit the fnce on this one. Maybe to me you can.......and get away with it.......but if there is a God, He will hold you accountable.
How does one talk to another with depth of conversation without knowing what their worldview is? I look and talk to Christians differently than I talk to those that are not Christians.
Its really not that hard to state.
You either believe in God, you deny there is a God, or you dont know.
So sorry you are so defensive about this issue.

reply from: nancyu

nancy just curious as to what your worldview is, do you mind sharing it?
You know why dont you read what the scriptures say themselves about this. You seem to think you know and have knowledge about this. I gave you enough scriptures that explain this.
Certainly the sin separates one from God. Remember the scripture I gave about past sins and future sins being forgiven?
Does a parent kick a small child out of the house simply because they disobey from time to time? After the child admits his wrong, takes punishment.......then things start over.
Ok, I'll state this again.
What happens when a Christian sins, and what are the results?
When a Christian sins their legal standing before God is unchanged. Their debt was pain in full the minute they accepted Christ and sanctification happened. And to do this......they must have.....Admitted the sin in their life. (Rom 3:23) Know that the penalty for sin is death. (Rom 6:23) Acknowledge that Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for their sin. (Rom 5:8) To admit this is NOT enough to be saved however. There also must be an invitation for a personal response on part of the person who will repent of his or her sins and trust personally in Christ.
Read Matthew 11:28-30
A Christian is still forgiven. Romans 8:1 says,
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
This says that salvation is not based on merit but is a free gift for those who are in CHRIST JESUS.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23
This says Christs death paid for all our sins -past, present and future. Christ died for our sins.
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures" 1 Cor 15:3
We still keep our "justification."
If we sin we still are children of God and we still are a member of His family. I have pointed this scriptrue out to you several times. I'll do it once again.
The apostle Paul says in 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." Paul also reminds us that, "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2
The fact that w have sin in our lives does not mean that we lose our status as Gods children. In theological terms we keep our adoption.
Sin does however disrupt and damage our Christian life. When we sin, even though God loves us, he is displeased. He is no different then the parent who is dissapointed in a child that disobeys.
Again Paul tells us that its possible that Christians....."grieve the Holy Spirit of God." Eph 4:30. When we sin we cause Him sorrow and He is displeased with us.
Here is the catcher. The author of Hebrews reminds us that "the Lord disciplines those He loves." Hebrews 12:6
"FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES,
AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
and "Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness." Hebrews 12:9-10
Like a parent disciples his children, so God disciplines His children.
Christ in Revelation had this to say. Rev 3:19 says, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
In this verse we see sin and love together, they are connected.
The New Testament attests to the displeasure of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit when believers sin there is no doubt about that. When we sin as Christians its not only our personal relationship with God that is disrupted. Our Christian life and fruitfulness in ministry are also damaged.
Jesus said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." John 15:4.
So when we get off that narrow path, when we stray from the fellowship we have with HIm, because of the sin in our lives, we very much diminish the degree to which we are abiding in Christ. Destructive consequences can happen. Paul rebuked the Christians in his day about the sins they were committing. He said thy would become slaves of sin. Romans 6:16 He told them that God wanted them on the path of increasing righteousness. He also told them that they would lose heavenly rewards. Not lose salvation but the rewards they would get in heaven.
Look at 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
"Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,' each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
We wll all appear before the judgement seat of Christ.
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10
There are definately degrees of reward in heaven and that sin has negative consequnces in trm of loss of heavenly reward. God knows when a person repeats sins with a willfull and knowing heart. Those sins are more displeasing to God. Sin out of ignorance and that are not repeated and are followd with genuine remorse and repentance God takes into account. I am not saying that unintentional sin is not sin. Lev 5:17. What I am saying is the penalties that result from sin are less than in the case of ones doen intentionally.
In the cross we have a clear demonstration of why God punishes sin. If He didnt he would not be a righteous God and there would be no justice in the world. When sin is punished God is showing Himself to be a righteous judge over all His creation.
This of course has nothing to do with unbelievers. Unbelievers or those outside of Christ, and in a state of bondage or enslavement to sin. Heb 11:6
"Without faith it isn't possible to please God. Those who come to God must believe that he exists. And they must believe that he rewards those who look to him.'



About your worldview....you obviously are not even sure yourself, that much is obvious. You have said, I have shown, that you said two things.
You mention God........then you say your views are like an agnostic.
You can't sit the fnce on this one. Maybe to me you can.......and get away with it.......but if there is a God, He will hold you accountable.
How does one talk to another with depth of conversation without knowing what their worldview is? I look and talk to Christians differently than I talk to those that are not Christians.
Its really not that hard to state.
You either believe in God, you deny there is a God, or you dont know.
So sorry you are so defensive about this issue.
Churchmouse, please watch your quoting. I did not say that. You put my name on CP's quote. I'd appreciate words not being put in my mouth.
I agreed with what he said, though. I don't think that you are more "saved" than he is.
I couldn't possibly tell you my world view in a few paragraphs, and I don't think this forum is to debate religion. There are many ways of being Christian, we are all individuals with unique beliefs. If I decide to debate religion with you, I will let you know.

reply from: churchmouse

Concerned Like it or not, call it whatever you want, everyone has a worldview. In order to discuss issues with someone, you have to know where they stand on life. Our worldview affects the decisions we make in life. My worldview is a Christian one. The scriptures tell me how to make decisions, how too live.
For you......I dont know how you decide what is right and wrong.
Well not an athiest because they deny there is a God. I think you are more in line with agnostic, you think, you just dont know.
I rather like the term worldview rather than label.
I read everything you post Concerned. But I am sorry I was getting two different answers from you, it was confusing. I would not be discussing this with you if I didn't consider and want to know more about the stuff you say.
Well I think the same about you. You say one thing in one post and something different in another. I dont care what you say you presented two opposing worldviews.
And I am not dodging one thing. I have gone into lengthy detail WITH SCRIPTURE to back up the point I am trying to make. I explained the sin issue the best way I know how.
When you study the scriptures you have to take everything into account on a particuar topic. For example if you are discussing.......if there are more than one ways to heaven....you must look at ALL THE SCRIPTURES that have to do with it, not just one. Take baptism for example. Many denominations believe that you must be baptised to go to heaven. There might be on verse that would make one think that, that is true......but if you take into account all the other verses that say differently, if you take into consideration the events that happened, the one verse cant hold weight against the many.
If Christ said that everyone had to be baptisd before getting into heaven, then the big event at the cross.......is a joke. Because Christ told the thief that before the days end, he would be in paradise. It was the faith of the thief that saved him.
I beleive this as I have said time and time again..........God is perfect. We cant be perfect. There is no way we can be perfect however hard we try. But we can strive and try to be perfect. I cant say this any clearer than this.
I have also said many many times on this forum.......that there will be questions from the scriptures people want answers to that they will never get. They will never understand it. I dont need all my questions answered.
I have NEVER CHANGED SCRIPTURE. NEVER. You insinuated that I did.
Quote scripture directly from the Bible that I have provided and show me what I have added. Yes I have added MY INTERPRETATIONS after the verse, but that does not mean I have changed the WORD. You are a liar.
I mean how hard concerned is it to interprete this verse that Christ said.
"I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME."
How would you interprete this one?
In many bibles at the bottom is commentary. A lot of things are added there to make readin easier. They might talk about the culture of the day, or the best possible explanation for the verse. Why do they do that? Are you saying I cant read someone elses commentary? Most bibles especially study bibles have these. They are a great help.
So provide the verses that I changed. And do it one by one.

reply from: churchmouse

nancy you are correct that was not your quote, and I apologize, I am so sorry.
I will certainly be more careful next time. I find when people use all those quote boxes, I get confues as to who said what.
Well when you debate social issues it does help to know a persons worldview, so you know where they are coming from. You are right this is not the place for a religious debate......we got off the subject. Was it my fault entirely however? Are you just saying this to me or do you mean it for concerned as well?
I dont know why people get so defensive and are so afraid to share what their beliefts are.
There are not many ways to be a Christian nancy. Christ says there is only one way and He said it perfectly clear. If you want to avoid what he said........thats up to you. But His Words are easy enough that a child could interprete and comprehend them.
There is only one way to the Father, and Christ said it Himself. I didnt make this up as you know you can read for yourself. if you dont like the quote take it up with HIM.
Concerned when I quote scripture I use " " " " to designate what I am quoting. I did not CHANGE SCRIPTURE AND HOW IT APPEARS IN THE BIBLE. My interpretation came after the quote.
Show me something inside the quotations where I have altered scripture.
Like nancy pointed out this is not a religious debate site. I certainly would not want to offend her by staying on this subject. LOL Some people are defensive and just cant debate some subjects and we really need not bring religion into the mix with abortion, science is on our side.
So nancy you never quote scripture when you talk about abortion?
Concerned.....If you would like to continue......just let me know the place, I'll come. The important thing is that I did find out.....what your worldview is.

reply from: nancyu

No, that would be you.
I'm still waiting for several responses to my posts directed at you.
So am I. And I have been waiting for quite some time.

reply from: churchmouse

nancy what have I not answered?

reply from: carolemarie

I believe Jesus died for every sin you may commit, past, present and future. This is standard theology.
Our sins are forgiven. That is why it is good news!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Standard theology for Satan's ministers, you should add. You're on Satan's team; or are you blind to that fact?
The "Good News" is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It's the good news that the kingdoms of man shall be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The coming Government is the good news of the gospel.
Jesus did not die for every sin that we may commit, past, present and future. Haven't you studied how the Sacrificial system works? Start back in Leviticus. The Sacrifice is to be applied to the sins previously committed that were made in error, ignorance or unintentionally. The Bible makes it very clear that there shall be no sacrifice for deliberate intentional sin; that point is repeated in the New Testament, I believe in Hebrews: "For if we sin willfully after we come to know of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Satan has way hotter cheerleaders than God.
If I join 'Team Satan' do I get a leather jacket with burning letters on it?
That would be totally ace!
Satan is described as a lion looking for someone to devour. He would like to see your existence end. Which it very well could happen in your case if you engage in homosexual acts. Drugs, alcohol, sodomy; all destroyers of your body and ultimately of your existence.

reply from: galen

gee your sex life must be really boring!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I was very confused earlier to think you were a Catholic girl. You seem to be some strange sexual pervert; you ain't no lady.

reply from: galen

I was very confused earlier to think you were a Catholic girl. You seem to be some strange sexual pervert; you ain't no lady.
_______________________________________________
funny coming from one who is fixated with the life of the lower intestinal tract...
oh and my husband says to tell you 'hi' amd that he enjoys me just the way i am.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

I was very confused earlier to think you were a Catholic girl. You seem to be some strange sexual pervert; you ain't no lady.
_______________________________________________
funny coming from one who is fixated with the life of the lower intestinal tract...
oh and my husband says to tell you 'hi' amd that he enjoys me just the way i am.
There is a great movement to normalize perverse sexual practices; a movement that must be forcefully repelled for the benefit of children and future generations.

reply from: galen

go get over yourself....
i'd say go get **** but that is probably against your religion.

reply from: carolemarie

Standard theology for Satan's ministers, you should add. You're on Satan's team; or are you blind to that fact?
The "Good News" is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It's the good news that the kingdoms of man shall be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The coming Government is the good news of the gospel.
Jesus did not die for every sin that we may commit, past, present and future. Haven't you studied how the Sacrificial system works? Start back in Leviticus. The Sacrifice is to be applied to the sins previously committed that were made in error, ignorance or unintentionally. The Bible makes it very clear that there shall be no sacrifice for deliberate intentional sin; that point is repeated in the New Testament, I believe in Hebrews: "For if we sin willfully after we come to know of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."
[Forgiveness is the acknowledgement that a debt has been paid in full!
It is what Christ did when He paid our debt of death for sin at the cross. God dealt with all sin, of all mankind, of all time, all at once, at the cross. It is on that basis that He has declared, through the Apostles, Paul, John, and Peter that, our sins HAVE BEEN forgiven.
Hebrews 8:12 and 10:17" For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more." "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him, shall He appear the second time without [a] sin, [offering] unto salvation" Heb. 9:28 and Hebrews 10:12 " But this man, after He offered one sacrifice, for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God." "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."In 2 Cor.5:19 Paul tells believers what our message to the world should be. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them.; and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation." Now if we are to tell the world that God is not imputing their sins unto them, why on earth would we think that He is still imputing sins to the believer so that they must confess them to "get right with God?"
The Good news is that God sent us a Savior who died as payment for our sins. Not some of them but ALL of them. It is all grace and a gift. Not works. We can't be good enough to get to heaven.

reply from: churchmouse

vexing Im though discussing this with you. I have answered your questions.....it is you that never answers mine. I went back and looked at a few threads and counted over 15 question I asked you that you never replied to. Was going to post them.......but to tell you the truth, I dont care what your answer is. Nevertheless, I am not going to fight over whether your a woman or a man. I believe what I believe. You however are intolerant, and you have a dirty mouth. I do not need to focus on those facts by keeping this going. God loves you, he will forgive you if you ask.
You can say whatever you want about me, I really dont care. While you do this.......I am going to concentrate on the real issues in these threads.......and thats about the unborn in the womb.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Standard theology for Satan's ministers, you should add. You're on Satan's team; or are you blind to that fact?
The "Good News" is the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. It's the good news that the kingdoms of man shall be replaced with the Kingdom of God. The coming Government is the good news of the gospel.
Jesus did not die for every sin that we may commit, past, present and future. Haven't you studied how the Sacrificial system works? Start back in Leviticus. The Sacrifice is to be applied to the sins previously committed that were made in error, ignorance or unintentionally. The Bible makes it very clear that there shall be no sacrifice for deliberate intentional sin; that point is repeated in the New Testament, I believe in Hebrews: "For if we sin willfully after we come to know of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins."
[Forgiveness is the acknowledgement that a debt has been paid in full!
It is what Christ did when He paid our debt of death for sin at the cross. God dealt with all sin, of all mankind, of all time, all at once, at the cross. It is on that basis that He has declared, through the Apostles, Paul, John, and Peter that, our sins HAVE BEEN forgiven.
Hebrews 8:12 and 10:17" For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more." "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him, shall He appear the second time without [a] sin, [offering] unto salvation" Heb. 9:28 and Hebrews 10:12 " But this man, after He offered one sacrifice, for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God." "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."In 2 Cor.5:19 Paul tells believers what our message to the world should be. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their trespasses unto them.; and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation." Now if we are to tell the world that God is not imputing their sins unto them, why on earth would we think that He is still imputing sins to the believer so that they must confess them to "get right with God?"
The Good news is that God sent us a Savior who died as payment for our sins. Not some of them but ALL of them. It is all grace and a gift. Not works. We can't be good enough to get to heaven.
The Bible says, "The sum of Your Word is truth." The entirety. totality of the Bible is truth. You are picking out bits and pieces; just the part on forgiveness of sins. You must become love; it is commanded. You must obey the law. If you do not have love, you are nothing. The law reflects love, loving neighbor and God.
The Bible says; "Satan's ministers appear as angels of light, don't marvel at this, even Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." You are repeating what Satan's ministers have spoon fed you. No, it is not okay for you to continue in sin. You shall surely die. Do not listen to Satan's lie that you shall not surely die if you continue in sin.

reply from: churchmouse

No your just not worth it, not to me anyway. I would go head to head with you in any real debate if you could clean up your filthy mouth. But as we all can see here......that is something you cant master.
You say I am not a Christian. What would you know vexing about Christianity? You mock God, you deny there is a God. The basics?
I do know that this is a basic, that God created us male and female.
Genesis I: 27 reads: "And Elohim created Adam in His Image, in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
As I said before I am not going to engage with someone that uses vulgarities and really shows a violent nature. So say whatever you want to say........I am not gonna get sucked in to your web.

reply from: galen

shes just mad because she's been called out for being a mean spirited, self absorbed, emotionally twisted, psychic vampire...
she won't answer you because she figured out that you actually have a brain and won't fall under her 'christian' spell and be brainwashed into thinking you are as pitiful as she is.
may mary malone and her 9 blind illigetimate children run her through the gates of hell and back to Dr Tiller's garbage can where the maggots can once again tell her how wonderfull she really is.

reply from: galen

shes too busy conversing with the maggots in her ears...

reply from: churchmouse

The kindness of mary..........just a real tribute to her faith.

reply from: yoda

An old friend of mine once decided to drop out of an email group, and the reason he gave was that the "Ratio of signal to static was getting too low".
I've often thought that was a clever way to put it........


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