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Should We Show Abortion Images?

by: standforlife

We live in a visual age where people often don't respond to any crisis until they see videos or pictures of it. Every few years there turns up a new dire condition in a different country in Africa. We see news reports of starving citizens or mass killing of people by some tyrannical leader or government. Often these problems have been going on for years, but we don't react until we see footage of them on the national news or photos in a magazine.
Even the horrors of the holocaust have more impact when you see pictures from the extermination camps.
That is why it is totally appropriate to show either video or still photos of aborted babies, especially to someone who is considering an abortion. It brings to light what the result of an abortion is. That is why pro-choice proponents don't want them to be shown. But if they are pro-choice, wouldn't they want people to see them, along with the use of the most advanced ultrasound technology. Women would then be given all the information they need to make an informed choice. Most would agree that when you have to make a difficult choice in life, then you should have all the information possible.

reply from: carolemarie

It depends how and where and why when you are using the graphic images, I like that when some groups do it they have warning signs that the motorist come upon first so they can advert their eyes if they want to. (like on truth tours)
But I think some places, like abortion clinics there is a need for the graphic image. Hopefully nowhere near the sidewalk counselors....and I like the contrast of the live baby and the dead baby signs together.
I do take down all the signs, the graphic and of live babies after they start the procedures. We just put up the help after abortion sign at that point and start the after abortion outreach.

reply from: nancyu

The procedures? Do you mean the procedures of killing the babies?

reply from: galen

I think the pics and videos have a place and time and should be used carefully to initiate shock in certain situations and disgust in others... they can be very provoking when viewed in the proper setting.
i do not agree that small children should be exposed to them. They are very intuitive and understand what they are more than some may suppose. Because you can not know how a child so young will react i think they should be reserved for children before the age of 7 or so. I do not approve of the images being outside elementary school, church group for children, or kindergartens and preschools.Middle school and Jr high in my opinion would be appropriate starting points.

reply from: yoda

Exactly right. Our history is replete with instances where photos have made a tremendous impact on public opinion. That one photo of the naked little girl with burning napalm on her practically ended the war in Viet Nam by itself.
Sadly, many in the prolife movement have forgotten about the impact of photos, and worry more about their own public image than ending the baby holocaust. They worry that someone will accuse them of being callous to the tender feelings of anyone who happens to see the images, so they tend to shy away from anything that will bring them discomfort. It's all about them, you know?

reply from: yoda

I don't think that anyone specifically targets small children with the graphic photos, because most of them would not understand what they represent unless someone older was there to explain them.
But you can't "filter" your audience when using a large sign in public. In public places, it's up to the parents to "censor" what their kids see. When trying to get such information out to the public (because the mass media will not do anything to get it out) you have to use whatever means you have at your disposal, and large signs with photos are about all the average prolife activist can afford. And you can't censor yourself because you fear some young child might accidentally see the photo in a public place.
Personally, I'm skeptical about fears that such photos will in any way be harmful for young kids to view, and I've never seen any claims to a scientific basis for that claim. And I know from personal experience that most kids know intuitively that photos are just plastic or paper things, and can't hurt them. So they don't really frighten kids, IMO. But if any parent is worried about it, it's up to them to prevent their child from being "exposed" to such photos in public.

reply from: nancyu

It is unfortunate if young children are exposed to such horrible images.
It's funny how the pro aborts are the ones who complain about them most, as though it is the fault of pro life. If abortion didn't exist, neither would the photos.

reply from: 4given

I believe both images are appropriate. Especially with older children- Let them see the images if they are sexually active. The images should be a part of sex education. The live pictures such as I AM A PERSON are appropriate everwhere, so best used (anywhere really) at the clinics that do not perform surgical abortions. The more graphic images should be used in conjunction with the live pictures. The graphic images are on a card that folds up should little eyes come near. I had no problem with my children seeing the images, but respect that others (especially the parents) may not be able to handle the truth and having to explain it.

reply from: standforlife

How many times on the news or on the front of a news magazine have we seen footage or photos of some certain tragic condition in the world. Sometimes the news will have a disclaimer that what you are about to see is graphic. Everyone has seen photos of AIDS sufferers, either here or in Africa. I've seen many photos of mothers or fathers holding their dead or dying child as a result of AIDS, famine, malaria. These are all very sad and deserve the whole world's attention. But why are photos or videos of an aborted baby off limits.

reply from: yoda

Exactly, standforlife. Everyone with a political cause has a photo of an atrocity they want you to look at, be it the Darfur genocide or the killing of the baby seals in Newfoundland. Yes, THEIR pictures are "justified and righteous", but photos of aborted babies are "harmful to chldren". AS IF abortion itself WASN'T "harmful to children"!

reply from: sander

That's an honest question, asking Christians to clarify our feelings on the subject of particular images publicly displayed, especially those of a pornographic nature. We lived in Las Vegas at one time....need I say more?
I wrestled with this many times.
There isn't anything we can do about stopping billboards and such displaying what would be offensive to a Christian. It does, however, make it all that much more difficult to protect our children.
All we can do is set the example from the home and within the family and explain to our children what is right and what is wrong and why.
I can't help what others do in public, all I can do is trust God and trust I've done my best to raise my children to give them Godly virtues to live by.
I wish there were no such pictures that existed because that would mean there was no abortion on demand.
But, if my child saw one I would be honest and explain this is the result of abortion.

reply from: galen

i have seen several small children 4-5 yrs old end up with nightmares from graphic imagery and all i am saying is don't target places you KNOW these kids will be... like the examples above... i agree that if you are in a mall etc then its the parents responsibility to sheild small eyes from certain things. i have had to do so with nieces and vephews around certain stores.. but its completely inappropriate to go to a church school and set up shop in front of the kid's play area... this has happened in a town near us.. now you can not have these images anywhere in public in that town. So walk softly when you carry the big stick of images... what works for you can also work against you.

reply from: carolemarie

That is so true.
Respect is needed. I like the practice of a warning sign before you drive up on the graphic images so you can choose to take a different route or tell your kids to shut their eyes.
We need to respect the parents right to decide if they want their child made aware of abortion or not. I would be mad if North American Man-Boy Love Association decided to put their posters in front of my sons elementary school....

reply from: Faramir

What images should be shown?
From what stage of development?
Many signs show chopped up late term fetuses. But aren't the vast majority of abortions in the first trimester?
Many prochoicers say (the say it but I think they would not ultimately support it) that they believe abortion should be restricted in the second and third terms.
Couldn't they make a case it is disingenous to show the late term abortions as if they represent the majority of abortions?
Wouldn't it be fairer AND MORE EFFECTIVE, to show the fetus or embryo (whether an abortion photo or non abortion photo) at the stage most abortions occur?

reply from: yoda

What were the circumstances? Was it photos of aborted babies? Did some adult tell them what the photos showed, or did they figure it out themselves? And what do you mean "end up"? Did the nightmares continue indefinitely? Or did they just have one?

reply from: yoda

You mean if they displayed pornographic photos of man-boy sex? Not only would I be "mad", I'd call the cops and/or destroy the photos.
But aborted baby photos are not porn.

reply from: sheri

We show both the live and aborted pictures of preborns at our abortuary. There is no way to shield the children from the aborted baby signs, it is a constant source of controversy, amounst prolifers ( who think they are too graffic) and prodeath (who dont know how to respond to what choice really means) weighed out and after many years of doing it this way i have to say the aborted baby signs convey the prolife message far better than any other tool we have. The children who see these signs have handle them with a brief amount of curiosity, if the mother is passing by the sidewalk and the child says any thing to her "what happened to the baby?" (heart breaking) and she responds in simple truthfull terms then i think the child is more excepting then if the mother curses and screams at us which only makes matters worse. Its hard, it really is, and i hate that my little ones have to view this madness when they are out with us, i would prefer to not have to do it at all, i would prefer that no innocent life were ever effected by the brutality of abortion...

reply from: yoda

Well said. I personally saw one very young child do just that. She calmly asked her mother about such a graphic photo, and her mother calmly told her what it was in terms she could understand. No muss, no fuss, no controversy. The controversies only occur when the adults stir them up, the kids really aren't much affected by the photos themselves, but they are very affected by how their parents respond.
And also I've noticed that the prolifers who object to the photos are those who are not activists, who do not do anything much but post on forums like this one.

reply from: sheri

Yoda, I think that may be because you really have to use them before you can understand the impact they can have on people. You have to experience it personally.

reply from: galen

most were not abortion related....however i do have a nephew whose mother took him to his preschool one day ( they have to walk behinde several church buildings to gain access to his classroom) and there were several protesters outside having a loud shouting match with some prolifers ( i do not know the exact circumstances for the arguement ending up where they were). Anyhow it came to pass that he saw several 'dead baby' pics and heard the protesters yelling about murdered babies and it made an impression... a bad one... he had nightmares for several years. Whats more it was unncessary... the prolifers could have been anywhere else and i would bet my last dime the prochoicers would have followed.
Also refrence the pics that were on placards outside of a school that i metioned earlier.
i don't say don't use the images i do say use them wisely.

reply from: ZacTheMan

In my opinion, If kids can watch an older brother play halo 3 with joyfull abandon, thn they can certainly be "painfully exposed" to pictures of aborted babies. In science and history classes we study the holocaust, and you see PILES of dead bodies. Sadly, i know many kids under the age of 12 who have already watched movies such as Saw.
I once saw a younger-ish kid, maybe 5 years old, who saw a picture of an unborn child. he looked at it, then ran to his mom and asked what it was. she said it was a dead baby, and the little kid broke into tears, becuase, "the baby will never get any christmas presents." When he sufficently recovered from his saltwater deluge, he asked why the baby was dead. the mom said that the mommy hadn't wanted it. the kid started crying again, saying that they should call the police and tell them about this bad mom. This kid is now a highly active campaigner for pro-life ministries.
Anyways, it is my firm belief that people do need to be woken up to what a horibble problem this is, but i do say choose the image you are using wisely. I.E., dont choose a picture of a baby that is ripped into 6 parts, but like standforlife said, people do need to see pictures, because people generally dont respond until they see something that can visually impact them.
Well, that's my opinion,
ZacTheMan, Signing off

reply from: yoda

Yes, I believe you have something there. It's impossible to appreciate their impact otherwise.

reply from: yoda

Okay, so how do you separate the effects of the shouting match from the effects of the photos? Don't real, flesh and blood people make a stronger impression on a young child than photos?
Oh I agree. They are much too valuable to do otherwise.

reply from: yoda

Good points. They watch such carnage in movies and video games that the aborted baby photos are tame by comparison. But do the "sensitive" Moms worry about that? Apparently not......
Another excellent reason not to shield kids from the truth.
Exactly right. One moment looking at a photo of an aborted child is worth 12 hours of dry academic debate about abortion.

reply from: galen

Originally posted by: galen
Anyhow it came to pass that he saw several 'dead baby' pics and heard the protesters yelling about murdered babies and it made an inpression... a bad one... he had nightmares for several years.
Okay, so how do you separate the effects of the shouting match from the effects of the photos? Don't real, flesh and blood people make a stronger impression on a young child than photos?
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i think it was the combination of circumstances...wich was my point... you must try to do your best when using the pics not to undermine your own efforts...
i believe any thing that is effective in any situation such as abortion, prostitution, slavery etc can be used both for and against you.

reply from: Faramir

This is not true. I have done street work, but I would never use the pictures of mutilated corpses.
I have never done street work, but have walked with the prolife marches we have in town, and they carry signs and some pictures of mutilated fetuses. I never thought much of it until it was pointed out to me that most abortions happen in the first trimester.
An abortion is an injustice and an embryo deserves to live as much as does a mature fetus, but don't you think that it could be very ineffective and be perceived as very dishonest if I show a photo of a chopped up 8 month fetus to woman considering an abortion in the very early stages of her pregnancy?
Some have bought into the idea that in the early stage it's just a "blob of cells."
And they are not so stupid to believe that a picture of a mature dead baby is a picture of an embryo. So, I think that this tactic could backfire and they would think a prolifer needs to trick them.
IMHO, they should be shown the picture of the embryo at the stage most abortions occur. That would be more honest, and I think a lot more effective. It is still a very powerful image.

reply from: Faramir

I'm not opposed to images at any stage.
But, if Sally is considering aborting and is in her 8th week of pregnancy and you show her a mutilated well-developed fetus that looks like a new born baby, then aren't you being disingenuous?
Wouldn't it be more fair to show the picture of an embryo close to the stage of development for her embryo?
There are a lot of prochoicers who will at least say that they oppose late term abortions, so the photos of late term abortions for them will be strawman arguments.

reply from: Faramir

The way I see it is if I am a prochoicer and if I also oppose late term abortions, is thay you're barking up the wrong tree if you show me the dead baby photos.
And...I will wonder why you need to show them to those who are having early abortions. I will wonder if you have the goods to counter the "blob of cells" argument.
At any rate, I think the photographs of the embryos towards the end of the first trimester are quite compelling and powerful. One I will never forget it the little bloody hand on the dime.

reply from: carolemarie

You mean if they displayed pornographic photos of man-boy sex? Not only would I be "mad", I'd call the cops and/or destroy the photos.
But aborted baby photos are not porn.
I don't want any image of violence in my kids face. War photographs for example. It would make me mad if you put pictures of the carnage of war in front of my kids elementary school......I am the one who decides what he is exposed to , not strangers. It I want to talk to him about abortion, then I should be able to pick the time and place. I am okay with my son seeing those posters, and I am equally okay with someone not wanting their kid to see them.
So at the clinic, if you can have WARNING, GRAPHIC SIGNS AHEAD signs you can arm parents to protect their children. That is at least trying to protect the parents right to decide what their child looks at.

reply from: yoda

So you really can't say which it was, right? In my experience, when parents get upset, kids become upset too. When parents stay calm, kids stay calm too. It wasn't the photos, it was the adults reaction.

reply from: yoda

So you admit that aborted baby pics are not porn? You agree that there is a big difference between porn and aborted baby pics? Or not?
It's a nice courtesy to have the warning signs, CBR uses them at their GAP displays on college campuses, and folks like MTTP use them when they set up their mobile displays. But there are times when it just isn't practical to have them, like when you're using an aircraft towing a banner or you have them on the side of a truck. And a single protester in front of a clinic can't really use them either, it would be a logistic nightmare to try to oversee.
When I worked with the GAP display, we had several of those warning signs destroyed by proaborts.... the very same people who would complain loudly if the signs were not there. It is expensive in terms of time, money, and effort to have them out.
So I applaud those who are able to use them, but I don't see them as essential to every protest action. I think they are really for the parents peace of mind, I don't think the kids are really impacted by the photos.
And I think the whole "you're damaging my kid" thing is a minor concern compared to the lives saved by the photos. If one baby can be saved by using the photos (and I know first hand they can), then that's worth the complaints of a thousand overprotective parents, IMO.

reply from: galen

So you really can't say which it was, right? In my experience, when parents get upset, kids become upset too. When parents stay calm, kids stay calm too. It wasn't the photos, it was the adults reaction.
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i don't think it was one or the other but both...did i say it more clearly this time?

reply from: galen

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just in case i was in any way unclear about what i said earlier.

reply from: galen

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ditto this for clarity.

reply from: carolemarie

I never said or implyed that they were pornographic. I was agreeing with the poster who said be careful how we use them because other groups have the right to do the same with things we would object our children being exposed to.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, much. I'd still like to hear from someone who knows of a kid who's been adversely affected by the photos alone. One where there were no adults around to get all bent out of shape and scare the kid, one where the kid just saw the pictures and freaked out by him/herself.

reply from: galen

did you go to the clinic today? Wish anyone Happy Father's Day?

reply from: yoda

Yes, actually several of us wished the customers a "Happy Father's Day" today... I usually don't say anything, but today I couldn't resist that.
One young customer who had seemed very calm about the whole thing walked through the parking lot down to the front where a crowd of protesters were standing. He seemed very non-threatening, even looked a bit depressed. He said he just had some questions, but he started off by telling us that he didn't think his wife could carry to term. We discussed the medical aspect for a while, and urged him to get a second and/or third opinion, especially from a prolife doctor, and to go across the street to the local CPC to get a referral. Then he looked directly at my IAAP sign, and said "That sign, how do you know that it's a person"? (My sign has a photo of a 7 week old embryo and says "I AM A PERSON"). I happily told him that the dictionary tells me that a person is a human being, and that this (pointing to the embryo) IS a human being. (I also explained that there is a rare, relatively new, specialized legal use of that term to mean "born human being", but that the vernacular sense is much older and more widely used). He had no reply, so I guess that answer satisfied him. He then discussed scriptural references with another protester, and then walked slowly back to the abortuary with his head still down, looking at the ground. I don't think he wanted the abortion.

reply from: galen

gee i wonder why he felt he had to support it then ....

reply from: galen

i know that... but wonderment is good brain food..

reply from: Faramir

I don't think he was supporting it. It doesn't seem like his heart was in it.
I think his quesiton about whether how it is known it is a person had to do with how it could be known that it has a soul. I don't think he was looking for a dictionairy definition and I don't think that would help in this case.

reply from: galen

no but when i think about men like CP... who will do anything to save thier offspring from the abortion mill... well that makes me wonder why other men do not do the same.

reply from: Faramir

Is this a public story that CP shared? I hope he posts it again.
At any rate, it seems this guy is just not sure. And he feels pressured to go along with it. I have a feeling he might not get it until after the fact.

reply from: galen

yep cp has been on the forum several times to say how he convinced the mother of his kids not to abort...

reply from: Faramir

Is this a public story that CP shared? I hope he posts it again.
At any rate, it seems this guy is just not sure. And he feels pressured to go along with it. I have a feeling he might not get it until after the fact.
I would be happy to answer any questions you might have.
I'm just curious what you did to stop an abortion.
It would be nice to hear a story with a happy ending for a change.

reply from: JasonFontaine

This is why I've been promoting MY Pro-Life picture/story.
It's something that can be read to every child - the picture can go in any room. It's a philisophical question - is the Egg alive? We believe, yes - it is alive!
Graphic images are necessary. However, I know lots and lots and lots of Christians who almost view them as pornographic. They're just too horrible to look at.
This is why I think my little pictures are really important. In a simple way - it delivers the same MESSAGE. Agree? Disagree? Please promote. I just simply believe it's a great venue for reaching many without being graphic! Thanks...
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=52ebaaf7557651307851

reply from: leftistdestroyer

The showing of graphic pictures and videos should be used as often as possible, and shown at any place, anytime, by anybody.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

It would be effective for only a short while, until everyone became desensitised to them.
But go for it.
It is better that what we are doing now. And that is not the sole option, that is just one of many that must be used collectively. The primary tactic, is to get up off of our butts and show some outrage.

reply from: faithman

It would be effective for only a short while, until everyone became desensitised to them.
But go for it.
It is better that what we are doing now. And that is not the sole option, that is just one of many that must be used collectively. The primary tactic, is to get up off of our butts and show some outrage.
Your zeal is comindable, but one of the major problems with the abortion pics is that they have stirred up outrage with no viable outlet to channel it into, thus burning many out emotionally. That is why we must use the live pictures and ultra sounds ten times more often. It is a positive aproach that builds up emunity to abortion. Pro-life has backed itself into an almost un winable corner. The condemning of lethal force has assured the other side that they can be relatively safe killing womb childen for big money, while laughing in the face of a helplessly, and fatally flawed "movement". Every clinic should be burned to the ground, and every abortionist should be put on notice retire or you will leave the planet. So called pro-life will never be taken seriously until that day. In the mean time, the most effective weapon we have to put a peaceful end to the womb child slaughter, is the I AM A PERSON poster and cards. I understand the need for outrage. But if you do not have some kind of positive outlet, it will destroy you emotionally and physically.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, I know where you're coming from there.
And there's a lot of truth in the concept that too much outrage is poison to our own systems over time. What's that old saying - "Help me to change the things which I can change, accept that which I cannot change, and know the difference between them"? Now, I don't advocate that we "accept" abortion, but that we accept the fact that we cannot stop it instantly, as much as we'd like to.

reply from: faithman

Yeah, I know where you're coming from there.
And there's a lot of truth in the concept that too much outrage is poison to our own systems over time. What's that old saying - "Help me to change the things which I can change, accept that which I cannot change, and know the difference between them"? Now, I don't advocate that we "accept" abortion, but that we accept the fact that we cannot stop it instantly, as much as we'd like to.
...and help us understand that mainstream pro-life is not interested in stopping it either. There would be to much of a finacial loss for them if that happened.

reply from: galen

i like the idea of using taxes on the abortion industry to fund the war in the middle east....

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Well, today is that day. That is exactly what I am calling for. And let those pictures cause outrage, that is what we need. And, we need more than that too. We need outrage on OUR side. It has ALWAYS worked for the left wingers. Now it is our turn.

reply from: galen

be cautious what you post... lots of people lurk this site... would not want the fibbies to find you...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

yodavater
And why is that outrage only allowed to be used by the pro choice crowd? What you said in the quote above, is precisely why we will lose the abortion argument. The time has come to take our fair share of outrage. What you fear about outrage, is already a part of me now. They laugh at us constantly because they know there is nothing we can do legally. Time to take it to them.

reply from: faithman

Well, today is that day. That is exactly what I am calling for. And let those pictures cause outrage, that is what we need. And, we need more than that too. We need outrage on OUR side. It has ALWAYS worked for the left wingers. Now it is our turn.
Check your private messages.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Thanks Galen. But someone has to take a stand and make a real sacrifice.

reply from: galen

yea like Paul Hill? no one but a few of us PL'rs remember that poor man...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

never mind But we can take the fight directly to the pro aborts. We dont have to axe them, but we can crawl up their butts

reply from: galen

i hate wikipedia... but here is a good synopsis...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill

reply from: faithman

understand this. To truely defend the womb child could cost you your life. Just ask paul hill. And as evidenced by what is posted here, mainstream pro-life would cheer as they injected you. Even so called leaders like Flip [the switch] Benham would even ask for the honor of injecting you himself. And Judas' like thirty pieces Pravone have already but up bounty money to sell you out to a pro-abort government that has proven they kill those who truely defend womb life.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

yeah, I got it. So they sent us a warning. Time to keep pushing

reply from: galen

one less person = one less vote AGAInst abortion..a martyr will not cause anyone to change thier mind...none of them have made one bit of diffrence on this planet... so what was the point of thier deaths? none... they did nothing to furthur the prolife cause... all they did was commit delayed suicide by killing another person.
violence is never the answer. not an answer for your problem pregnancy and not the answer for this problem.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Dude, it's finished already unless some new tactics are implimented.
I am not neccessarily advocating all out physical war. I am simply saying that we need to express more outrage. And take the fight to the streets. Get mad and get loud.
Sometimes it is the only answer, once all other avenues have been crossed.

reply from: faithman

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Clearly you are not a middle of the roader. lol Hat's off

reply from: faithman

Now put your hat back on and let's fight to end it.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Originally posted by: faithman
OK! What state you live in man? Maybe we can join forces?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

To All:
I am not advocating violence against anyone. I am simply tired of the same useless tactics of politness, political correctness, and back patting. I am calling for the unification of all those who are pro life, under one banner. I am calling for more collective activist time. I am calling for more displays of public outrage. I am calling for loudness. To be silent and weak, no more.

reply from: neat62

You are absolutely right...the biggest problem with society today is that there are NO consequences...everyone wants to be "free" to do whatever they please, despite who else may be hurt in the process.
Abortion is the ultimate selfish act and we in the US should look to the Congress in El Salvador as our example:
In El Salvador, law criminalizes abortion without exception, even to save the life of the pregnant woman or in cases of rape or incest. Abortion providers and women obtaining abortions face increased prison terms of up to 12 years. Legislators also amended El Salvador's Constitution in January 1999 to protect the right to life from the moment of conception and this week ALL 84 members of their congress signed a petition which states:
"Our primary responsibility as legislators is to unconditionally defend life. We condemn abortion as an abominable crime."

reply from: neat62

I'll just add...we need to also show the true horror of abortion to the YOUTH, so that they will come to KNOW why it is absolutely MORALLY unacceptable!
We aren't going to get them to understand why its so wrong, when we are too afraid to show WHY it is!

reply from: galen

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
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interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...

reply from: galen

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there are lots of people... someof them even on this board who are quite loud... do your research.

reply from: neat62

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there are lots of people... someof them even on this board who are quite loud... do your research.
Not loud enough apparently...and "do your research" right back at you...sigh...

reply from: faithman

But first educate with the beauty of the live pictures of womb life. This can be done with even pre schoolers without robbing them of their innocent childhood. Middle school is about the right age for abortion pictures. The I AM A PERSON poster and cards are a devastating weapon against the pro-aborts without the harmful side effects of abortion pictures. The media will also put them on TV.

reply from: galen

considering you do not know who you speak to may i referr you to the archive files and possibly the posts from the last few weeks...
there are many active people here and the reasons for abortion remaining legal are many...
For instance did you know the #'s have actually gone down in the last year or 2 ....
did you know that many states are actually scrambling to find abortion providers because the doctors will no longer work in the clinics... some have a change of heart most often they either retire and there are no med students graduating and willing to take thier place.
did you know the industry is rampant with doctors who for various reasons ( like too many malpractice suits) can not practice in any reputable area of medicine. That the state of AZ could not even find doctors of this calibre willing to preform abortions in thier clinics so they had to legalise nurse practioners to do so and even now can not find enough of those..??
did you know that there are more adoptions preformed each year due not to better foster care guidelines... but more unwanted children placed for adoption... even when abortion was available to thier mothers?
do your own research...

reply from: galen

But first educate with the beauty of the live pictures of womb life. This can be done with even pre schoolers without robbing them of their innocent childhood. Middle school is about the right age for abortion pictures. The I AM A PERSON poster and cards are a devastating weapon against the pro-aborts without the harmful side effects of abortion pictures. The media will also put them on TV.
**********************
iactually agree with FM on this point.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Yeah, but I am talking about collectivley. We need to join forces nationally. ALL pro life movments should join into one giant, very loud, VERY angry group. That is the ONLY way anything will change. And if Obama wins and he signs the Freedom of Choice act, we are done for, forever. Legally speaking, which is pretty much all of it.

reply from: galen

you know people said the same thing about RvW and guess what... if you can vote 'em in you can vote'em out... such a nice system....

reply from: neat62

If Obama wins and the Dem's remain in control of the Congress...they will not only end the pro-life movement...they will enact socialized healthcare, eventually dictating to each of us just how many children the "government" will pay for!

reply from: galen

besides ... i think changing the attitudes of the providers is a BIG thing... soon all the old ones will be dead... and no one will take thier place...also teaching someone why a thing is wrong is better than bombing them into submission... or shooting them...or kicking them... they just find a new way to preform an abortion. But idf you make it a stigma... then society tends to do your dirty work for you.
a woman who grows up to believe in life at conception will not kill her child 9 times out of 10. a woman who grows up not really knowing or understanding what life at conception means will be more 50-50.
it does not take violence to do this. It does take talking in a way that will be heard.

reply from: galen

------------------------------
do you have any idea what socialized HC would do... i have no problem with it if it will not pay for elective procedures such as breast implants and abortion.... you just need to know how to make it work well... and many countries do.

reply from: neat62

Please...name ONE country in which socialized healthcare works effectively and then tell me WHY people from all over the world come HERE to the US to receive medical care???

reply from: galen

interesting when we now have many americans going to canada and Britian and even india for procedures... because even in our 'wonderful' system of care it is cheaper to have surgery preformed there... overseas... when the us dollar is falling..
why is it when we have a clinic day ( free clinic run by the cathiolic charities) that i will have at least 3 women who are pregnant and have no health insurance and can not qualify for medicaid for thier pregnancies unless they divorce thier husbands...? whos same kids can not afford normal well checks because the insurance thier parents manage to carry on them ( mom and da are uninsured) will not pay for a normal... well check up.( average cost for self pay is 250.00 US)
socialised medicine will pay for these people to recieve care and be better able to stay health and have healthy kids.
NORWAY NEW ZELAND FRANCE GERMANY SWITZERLAND ITALY all have better systems of care... some provide abortion some do not... its better to vote now for a socialized system without electives than to have nothing and watch the situation get worse over the next 8 years... it will get worse as the economy gets worse.

reply from: galen

people are actually NOT coming here for most things.. ie transplants etc... only third world governments send us patients regularly... and even the places such as South AFrica are getting many more each year... go do your research.

reply from: faithman

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

But it is not in the hands of the politicians. Roe cannot be voted away. The people must convince the Supreme Court that abortion is not the will of the people.

reply from: galen

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.
---------------------------------
you mean like the billy club they took from me and beat me with?( collapsable in my purse)or maybe the pepper spray they put in my throat when they were finished with that arwea of my body... (i bit one of them)
what police... at a party ?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Sorry, but we have been doing this waste of time for 35 years and we have nothing substantial to show for it. Time is up. I do agree with the stigma, and that takes people to tell other people how disgusting and unacceptable abortion is. And not doing it nicely. Loud outrage is the only tactic we have left. "Education" will not work. People are self centered and selfish, they DO NOT CARE. That is why it must be forced on them.

reply from: faithman

If obama wins we wil almost have to advocate civil war to keep our republic. Either the womb child is worth fighting for, or we have lost already.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Yeah, but NONE of those countries have a population even close to 300 million people. 75% of Americans have some sort of coverage right now. 1.5 trillion, half our national budget, goes to social programs right now. When the boomers go, LOL, WOW. try at least 2.5 trillion! Out of a 3 trillion dollar us budget right now!

reply from: neat62

Sigh....you seem to be pretty arrogant...with your "do your research" comments...seems to me YOU are the one that actually needs to follow your OWN advice!
First off...WHO do YOU think pays for the healthcare in the nations you mentioned?
Those governments do not have money trees...the TAX PAYERS are the ones that are being CHOKED to death to pay for that "free" healthcare.
Secondly, so many come here to the US because we have the most effective medical technology available in the US.
Third, I have a good friend who lives in Canada who was diagnosed last JUNE with a brain tumor...she, however, is still awaiting authorization to receive treatment!
Socialized healthcare would be the worst thing EVER to happen to the medical community and we would eventually end up with a shortage of doctors, as well as nurses!
Finally...one just has to look at government run programs such as FEMA, Social Security, Medicare, Dept. of Education, the IRS, the INS...to know that the PRIVATE sector is MUCH MORE Effective!

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Sorry, but we have been doing this waste of time for 35 years and we have nothing substantial to show for it. Time is up. I do agree with the stigma, and that takes people to tell other people how disgusting and unacceptable abortion is. And not doing it nicely. Loud outrage is the only tactic we have left. "Education" will not work. People are self centered and selfish, they DO NOT CARE. That is why it must be forced on them.
It is time for the Churchill approach, not the Chamberlain approach. Chamberlain tried to politely talk sense over tea with Hitler and the Nazis. Churchill flat out called the Nazis a band of thugs out to darken the light of the world. We need to have the Churchill attitude. Like Leftist Destroyer said, education will not work, people are self-centered and selfish, they DO NOT CARE.

reply from: neat62

So you went to a party alone?? Where were your friends to assist you?
And did you press charges after?
And because this happened to you...one would think that you would be more open to actually fighting back to defend yourself as well as others!

reply from: galen

interesting... where are you getting your figures... because just because you have coverage, that DOES NOT MEAN you will be covered... do you know how many claims are denied each year... how many people are forced into bankruptcy because of 1 cancer diagnosis... did you know that the majority of health care plans DO NOT pay for well visits or vaccines.. or even well baby or maternity....
coverage does not mean what you think.
some sort of coverage does not cut it when kids die of measels and whooping cough each year ( i'm not counting those whose parents reject vaccination) or when dad leaves a family with no life insurance after dying of a cancer that they can treat under socialised medicine but that his family can not afford to treat under ours.
sorry you need to be wiser if you are ever going to convince me that screaming at people is going to work in the long term.
why not spend your time doing something productive....volunteer at a maternity home.. spend yur cash on a campaign that will make a diffrence...or organise a prolife rally on the mall in DC... oh yeah... we already DO all those things... what more do YOU think could be done?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.
---------------------------------
you mean like the billy club they took from me and beat me with?( collapsable in my purse)or maybe the pepper spray they put in my throat when they were finished with that arwea of my body... (i bit one of them)
what police... at a party ?
I have sympathy for you, but simply because that happend to you, is not an argument. There used to be a time when a lady had an escort. But feminism tossed that idea.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Absolutely! The name of our blog is a quote from Chruchill, as a matter of fact.

reply from: galen

***************************
I went to a party... a loud one... I was forced to a basement...no one heard... yes they were arrested when one of my friends came down and found me. that was 45 minutes into the attack. It was a large party at a friend's sweet 16...all the 'chaperones' thought that someone else was looking for me and the perps after 20 minutes had gone by...
and NO it made me MORE of a pacfist... especially listening to whaqt those guys had as home lives... even if i only believed 1/3 of it.
Its one of the resons i gave birth to and raised my son... i never wanted to have to worry that some day he might have a home like thiers. and he does not.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.
---------------------------------
you mean like the billy club they took from me and beat me with?( collapsable in my purse)or maybe the pepper spray they put in my throat when they were finished with that arwea of my body... (i bit one of them)
what police... at a party ?
Whoa, sounds like you live in a really tough part of town. I hope anyone doing the kind of things you mentioned received 30 year prison sentences. Ulimately, guys who do the kind of things you mention are worthy of death. But one more opportunity for life can be offered to them. If they persist in such behavior, violent rapists really should be executed.

reply from: galen

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.
---------------------------------
you mean like the billy club they took from me and beat me with?( collapsable in my purse)or maybe the pepper spray they put in my throat when they were finished with that arwea of my body... (i bit one of them)
what police... at a party ?
I have sympathy for you, but simply because that happend to you, is not an argument. There used to be a time when a lady had an escort. But feminism tossed that idea.
*******************************
actually it is... you see i concieved in that rape... i gave birth and am raising a son...he and i have lived a non violent life for years...i am a nurse w/ a PHd i run a crisis pregnancy shelter that helps battered women...i have been in the prolife movement a very long time.... i have seen what works and what does not.
violence in the long run does not. changing attitudes does and it lasts longer...

reply from: carolemarie

I am so sorry that this happen to you! And good for you that you bite! That took guts and I hope it hurt like hell!

reply from: galen

35 stitches for him... he tried to sue me! and lost.

reply from: faithman

You are just simply wrong as usual. Paul hill saved many more lives with his action than all the phony flip benhams put to gether. It saved over 2 dozen children that very day, and it put another 25 or so abortionist int early retirement saving untold thousands. Violence stopps rape. Violence stopps child molesters. Violence stopps bank robers. And when you take away the threat of lethal force the only thing you do is leave the innocent unprotected. Just like 35 years of the so called pro-life movement.
--------------------------------------
interesting... the one time i fought with someone was when he was raping me... it did nothing...
But if someone stopped him with lethal force you would say but out? You would tell the police to put their guns up? You simply didn't have enough force to stop him. That does not mean forcing evil aggressors to stop is wrong. It just means to carry a big enough stick to gitter done.
---------------------------------
you mean like the billy club they took from me and beat me with?( collapsable in my purse)or maybe the pepper spray they put in my throat when they were finished with that arwea of my body... (i bit one of them)
what police... at a party ?
Just because you are a woosy girl, and lacked the power to stop the evil aggression against you, does it make force illegitimate in defence of ones self or the defence of another innocet human being. for 2000 years of western, and christian civilazation, lethal force has been justified in defending innocent life against evil aggression. If abortion is not evil aggression, what is it?

reply from: faithman

I am so sorry that this happen to you! And good for you that you bite! That took guts and I hope it hurt like hell!
To bad the three you had killed didn't have teeth.

reply from: carolemarie

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.

reply from: galen

woosy girl? how i would love to send you a pic!
anyhow i contend that the last 2000+ of violence are wrong... and if we had not as a speciese been violent then we as a people would not have learned violence as an option for our troubles.

reply from: galen

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.
--------------------------
i agree i would rather my tax dollars went to fund healthcare rather be sent over to line the pockets of some warlord in Iraq. I say bring this war to an end qietly and save all those misused defense $$$.. they certainly are not stopping our soldiers from being killed.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Originally posted by: galen
They are common figures. Google it.
Yeah, life aint free. And socialize healthcare aint free either.
And the prices soared when government got involved. It's like insurance. You know how many people raise their prices because they know it is paid for by insurance and not the average Joe? My mother goes to the do every other week for some lame reason. Why? Cause it aint her money.
Well there were 64 cases of measels in the US by Feb of 2008. And 17 die from Whooping COugh each year in the US.
We should help out in those particular cases, sure.
Well your 35 year, long term solution has failed miserably, so I don't care what you say.
LOL I told everybody here already! Unite ALL prolife groups under on banner. Organize massive protests, instead of many tiny, local ones. Protest all of our politicians OFFICES. Get LOUD, Get OFF of our butts. And most importantly, get ANGRY. All the stuff that we have not done for the last 35 years. Go read the first post on my blog, and you will get an idea.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Oh God Bless You! GOOOOD Bless you!
1) I did not advocate for violence. 2) Sorry, but your methods do not work. If they did, we would be singing a far different tune than we are today. I am all for teaching about abortion, but that should not be the primary weapon.

reply from: galen

i'll wait and see how your blog goes... and if your still hear in a year...we'll see.
i've seen numerous people like you come in here with all the answers... and you never stay.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Yeah, get the government out of it. If we stay this course, we will all be equally as miserable, poor, and enslaved to the government, and with no defense.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Great. I wonder how many billions Mexico spends on R & D for new drugs. Way to penalize the ones who developed those drugs. Illegal Mexicans send back 20 billion a year to Mexico each year. 20 billion that could have gone to you, and here you are paying them for drugs. What a world, what a world.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

And back on planet reality....

reply from: sander

These are great trends.
Galen, do you think if Obama gets elected and signs the FOCA that the the trends you described will revert backwards?

reply from: galen

They are common figures. Google it.
Yeah, life aint free. And socialize healthcare aint free either.
And the prices soared when government got involved. It's like insurance. You know how many people raise their prices because they know it is paid for by insurance and not the average Joe? My mother goes to the do every other week for some lame reason. Why? Cause it aint her money.
Well there were 64 cases of measels in the US by Feb of 2008. And 17 die from Whooping COugh each year in the US.
We should help out in those particular cases, sure.
Well your 35 year, long term solution has failed miserably, so I don't care what you say.
LOL I told everybody here already! Unite ALL prolife groups under on banner. Organize massive protests, instead of many tiny, local ones. Protest all of our politicians OFFICES. Get LOUD, Get OFF of our butts. And most importantly, get ANGRY. All the stuff that we have not done for the last 35 years. Go read the first post on my blog, and you will get an idea.
************************
1 it was never my solution... i never wanted abortion and i have never voted for it... and while i was out helping pregnant teens and raising awareness in schools... guess who was bombing and shooting and destroying.... a group of people who gave a lot of us a bad name...
you try fundraising for a maternity home when someone shoots an abortionist....that's the year i started using my own money for food a diapers...the year things dried up. all because we were prolife.
2.i'll tell you what does not work, when you ignore the basic needs of people they start to think you do not care.... like all those uninsured and underinsured who have to think about $$ for meds and food...THOSE are the people who will vote for OBAMA because they are the ones he speaks to right now... it does not matter if you otr i think he lies like a rug... when you are deprate and someone promises an easy cure... you tend to go for easy. That is human nature.
3. google figures and the first 10,000 you will get this year will be from the insurance industry... its an election year... they do not want socialised medicine. go to your local county offices and start your research... or just do an informal poll of you neighborhood..and 2 others in your area... you will get more of a slice of life if you can actually get people to talk to you... so be nice.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.
--------------------------
i agree i would rather my tax dollars went to fund healthcare rather be sent over to line the pockets of some warlord in Iraq. I say bring this war to an end qietly and save all those misused defense $$$.. they certainly are not stopping our soldiers from being killed.
Oh God! You are one of them. No wonder. I am not even gunna take this thread into that direction.
Are you this Galen?:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/medi-f09.shtml

Is that you by any chance?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

I have no plans on staying, it is a waste of time. I plan on building a new movment. I just came here to advertise my blog, and test the waters to see if there were any who are as mad as I am.

reply from: carolemarie

What!!!! That is is ... I cna't think of a word to describe it! What nerve! He is lucky you are a pacifist although that might have push a less committed one over the brink!
I am amazed at the nerve of some people!

reply from: galen

These are great trends.
Galen, do you think if Obama gets elected and signs the FOCA that the the trends you described will revert backwards?
_______________________
no i do not... once something is ingrained into society... like abortion... it takes a long while to uningrain them... we just have to keep remembering why it can never continue to happen again... and why we can not allow it to continue being legal.

reply from: galen

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.
--------------------------
i agree i would rather my tax dollars went to fund healthcare rather be sent over to line the pockets of some warlord in Iraq. I say bring this war to an end qietly and save all those misused defense $$$.. they certainly are not stopping our soldiers from being killed.
Oh God! You are one of them. No wonder. I am not even gunna take this thread into that direction.
Are you this Galen?:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/medi-f09.shtml
">http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.../medi-f09.shtml
Is that you by any chance?
-----------------------
no i would not use my real name in this arena ... i run a crisis women's shelter remember?... are you really this dense?
or are you just niave?

reply from: neat62

Well, obviously, sorry to hear what happened to you...but I just don't see how you think that it is somehow okay for us not to fight back when injustice is occuring.
Sitting back and doing nothing, is not what God would have us do.

reply from: neat62

Totally agreed! I am more than ready to take to the streets...even NOW, before he's elected!

reply from: galen

oh really and you've heard from him directly i suppose?

reply from: carolemarie

Great. I wonder how many billions Mexico spends on R & D for new drugs. Way to penalize the ones who developed those drugs. Illegal Mexicans send back 20 billion a year to Mexico each year. 20 billion that could have gone to you, and here you are paying them for drugs. What a world, what a world.
It doesn't matter if they didn't pay for the R & D. The point is I can't afford them if I don't go and get them in Mexico and without them he will die. Do you actually think I should let my husband die so Lilly can make more profit? I understand all about the cost of developing drugs and why drug companies hold patents for years. But the bottom line is that to keep my husband alive, we have to go and fetch drugs across the border. Lots of older Americans are forced to do the same. Dental as well. It is cheaper to go the Mexico for treatment then to pay for it here.

reply from: neat62

Sorry, but we have been doing this waste of time for 35 years and we have nothing substantial to show for it. Time is up. I do agree with the stigma, and that takes people to tell other people how disgusting and unacceptable abortion is. And not doing it nicely. Loud outrage is the only tactic we have left. "Education" will not work. People are self centered and selfish, they DO NOT CARE. That is why it must be forced on them.
It is time for the Churchill approach, not the Chamberlain approach. Chamberlain tried to politely talk sense over tea with Hitler and the Nazis. Churchill flat out called the Nazis a band of thugs out to darken the light of the world. We need to have the Churchill attitude. Like Leftist Destroyer said, education will not work, people are self-centered and selfish, they DO NOT CARE.
AMEN! I just keep wondering...how much more will it take? Why are so many so complacent and unwilling to take action??? I'll just never get it...sigh...

reply from: neat62

Again, this shows your arrogance...assuming that we DON'T already do these things...typical of the self-righteous!

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.
--------------------------
i agree i would rather my tax dollars went to fund healthcare rather be sent over to line the pockets of some warlord in Iraq. I say bring this war to an end qietly and save all those misused defense $$$.. they certainly are not stopping our soldiers from being killed.
Oh God! You are one of them. No wonder. I am not even gunna take this thread into that direction.
Are you this Galen?:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2.../medi-f09.shtml
<br ">http://www.wsws.org/ar...s/2.....html
Is that you by any chance?
-----------------------
no i would not use my real name in this arena ... i run a crisis women's shelter remember?... are you really this dense?
or are you just niave?
LOL Don't go gettin all pissy there, sweetheart. (kiss)
Not this site or that site have a first and last name with a city posted.
"By E. Galen
9 February 2005"
Yeah, such an emence amount of information there, (rolleyes)

reply from: neat62

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.

reply from: neat62

Health care is a real problem in the USA. Too many people can't afford a Dr. either they are underinsured or have no insurance. My spouse is very ill and his medications are astronomical. If it wasn't for cheap Mexian drugs, I don't know how we could pay for them.
We need to do something about this. Children and those on fixed incomes suffer the most.
--------------------------
i agree i would rather my tax dollars went to fund healthcare rather be sent over to line the pockets of some warlord in Iraq. I say bring this war to an end qietly and save all those misused defense $$$.. they certainly are not stopping our soldiers from being killed.
NOT ME...I would however like my tax dollars to STOP going to fund government schools, welfare programs and a whole variety of pork spending bills!
After all, defending the nation from foreign threat is really the ONLY purpose of the Federal government, as defined by the Constitution!

reply from: neat62

We don't stay because we are actually DOING something rather than sitting on forums everynight whinning, but NOT taking ACTION!

reply from: galen

LOL Don't go gettin all pissy there, sweetheart. (kiss)
Not this site or that site have a first and last name with a city posted.
"By E. Galen
9 February 2005"
Yeah, such an emence amount of information there, (rolleyes)
-------------------------------------------------------
like i said......
and BTW galen was a greek physician... and mary was the virgin mother of christ.....

reply from: neat62

These are great trends.
Galen, do you think if Obama gets elected and signs the FOCA that the the trends you described will revert backwards?
Has anyone read the entire FOCA bill? It will negate ANYTHING the pro-life movement has achieved and in fact will require ALL hospitals and doctors to provide abortion on demand or face penalties!

reply from: neat62

As a matter of fact...I talk to God daily...apparently you don't? That's too bad...He has a way of guiding you when you let Him!

reply from: galen

We don't stay because we are actually DOING something rather than sitting on forums everynight whinning, but NOT taking ACTION!
________________________
i actually get to spend as much time as i would like here right now... i was operated on for a brain tumour in Feb....before that not as much. i also put my money where my mouth is ... my teaching salary goes to the women's shelter... i promise you i am worth more than you donated in your last 5 years of life... so don't even try to go there with me.

reply from: neat62

Gee for someone who claims to be a pacifist...you sure do enjoy making personal attacks on others. **rolleyes

reply from: galen

These are great trends.
Galen, do you think if Obama gets elected and signs the FOCA that the the trends you described will revert backwards?
Has anyone read the entire FOCA bill? It will negate ANYTHING the pro-life movement has achieved and in fact will require ALL hospitals and doctors to provide abortion on demand or face penalties!
---------------------------
yes actually and that is NOT what it says.... i'm beginning to think whatever school you go to is not so good.

reply from: galen

As a matter of fact...I talk to God daily...apparently you don't? That's too bad...He has a way of guiding you when you let Him!
-------------------------------
i didn't ask if you spoke to Him ... i merely supposed that you had heard directly from Him... am i right?

reply from: galen

Gee for someone who claims to be a pacifist...you sure do enjoy making personal attacks on others. **rolleyes
---------------------------------
gee i have not begun to attack you... but rest assured that when i do you will not be able to miss it.

reply from: neat62

As a matter of fact...I talk to God daily...apparently you don't? That's too bad...He has a way of guiding you when you let Him!
-------------------------------
i didn't ask if you spoke to Him ... i merely supposed that you had heard directly from Him... am i right?
Again...YES...apparently you don't know how to open your eyes, open your ears and open your heart to Him, huh?

reply from: galen

you know what they say... when you talk to God its prayer... when He starts to answer you back.....
And BTW just so you do not mistake me... i am Roman Catholic.

reply from: neat62

Gee for someone who claims to be a pacifist...you sure do enjoy making personal attacks on others. **rolleyes
---------------------------------
gee i have not begun to attack you... but rest assured that when i do you will not be able to miss it.
You haven't because I don't take ANY offense to anything you have to say...but you sure do a good job at contradicting yourself and demonstrating your "liberal" compassion and tolerance for other...its pretty typical!

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Sure, because you took the worng path to ending it. You were about helping, they(me) are about ending abortion. It is like medics in a war. They help, but they do not end the war.
And our mistake was that we stopped after that because we were worried about how we looked. That was the time to hit harder.
Oh man, you make it sound like the US is a third world nation! We are not. Our poorest here have it better than most. People have their hands out. The Democrats have seen to that. And they are creating a class of depandants, who will keep voting socialist. The Dems buy their votes. There are plenty of rich Liberals who will vote for NObama.
I want proof of that.

Sure and most people think that 25% of our nation earns minimum wage. And hey, I live in the real world too. I am laid off at the moment too. AND, I am blue collar, so don't try to tell me that I am uninformed about life, the nation, or society.

reply from: neat62

I would bet you're more of a cafeteria catholic....but whatever...
Oh and I am a Traditional Roman Catholic...I pray daily and I listen closely...because it is in the silence of life that we are allowed to HEAR HIM...and ANY Roman Catholic knows that!

reply from: galen

not all conservatives believe that you must attack everything... but you go ahead and knock yourself out!
you have shown me that at this time you have
a the mentality of someone under 21.
b. the testosterone level of someone who is under 18.
c. no real self controll.
d. the idealism of a teenager that has done no real work in life.
i have not contradicted myself... but you obviously do not know that...
also i find it suspect that your great blog has absolutely no responses... and only yourself and your buddy leftist as contributers... and the site has only been up from April....so what no one listened to you.
you might do well to come into a place like this... listen and get to know people... before pissing off half of them and then alienating the other half... right now you so far have FM on your side... and he is a bit suspect.

reply from: galen

I would bet you're more of a cafeteria catholic....but whatever...
Oh and I am a Traditional Roman Catholic...I pray daily and I listen closely...because it is in the silence of life that we are allowed to HEAR HIM...and ANY Roman Catholic knows that!
----------------------------------------
uh huh... i wonder what your priest says about you.....

reply from: faithman

Suspected of what ? I was in the next county at the time.

reply from: neat62

LOL! You're funny....again, demonstrating how "compassionate and tolerant" of others you are, some "pacifist"...and as a matter of fact, our blog has almost 2000 views and that's ONLY since APRIL...that's pretty damn good for less than three months of activity!
And I love your assumptions...please continue to make them...cause you only make yourself appear to be a snide, self-righteous snob, with little other to refute or add to the topics at hand, especially when confronted with TRUTH and FACT!

reply from: galen

yeah... and no replies... which means no one takes you seriously enough to bother to argue with you.....

reply from: neat62

I would bet you're more of a cafeteria catholic....but whatever...
Oh and I am a Traditional Roman Catholic...I pray daily and I listen closely...because it is in the silence of life that we are allowed to HEAR HIM...and ANY Roman Catholic knows that!
----------------------------------------
uh huh... i wonder what your priest says about you.....
Just got off the phone with him, as a matter of fact...he says he loves me, in the non-romantic way, of course.
But is this all you have? Nothing but personal attacks cause you can't refute the truth...pitty...

reply from: galen

i have refuted you... my whole life has refuted you... but right now i'm just playing with you...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Yeah I got all that. Im just trying to figure out where the stupid little alien head comes into this.

reply from: galen

i'm goth i like aliens and weird things....
i also like long walks on the beach at sunset and poking dead things with a stick... kinda like this thread.

reply from: neat62

No, it means that those who consistently come back to view our posts do so because they are informative and they don't post responses because its pretty boring to say "yea, I agree" all the time!
And yea...we have regular viewers, who come back on a daily basis from all over the web...lib cowards however, don't dare reply because they know they would only LOSE!

reply from: galen

really... is that a challenge?

reply from: neat62

?? LOL! Refuted me how and your hardly "playing" with me...rather your LOSING, while making yourself look like a self-righteous hypocrit...so please continue, I don't mind one bit.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

OK I know your types.
LOLOLOLOLOLsnicker, snicker, LOLOLOLOL

reply from: neat62

Ah...you like goth and aliens...but claim to be a Roman Catholic...now I know you are a cafeteria catholic at best!

reply from: neat62

Sure...if you think you can handle it, pick a topic on the blog and respond...but I doubt you can and doubt you will take it up...being a "pacifist" and all...**rolleyes

reply from: galen

i was never competeing... if you were i am sorry i never realised...i usually have a much higher calibre of debate going on when i actually think i'm being challenged.
i thought you were just here killing time....
my 13 year old is more informed than you... and he goes to a public school in the boondocks.
hell my 18 year old schizophrenic son is more informed than you... and sometimes he is not in this world.
grow up and learn to play with the other 10 year olds.

reply from: galen

Ah...you like goth and aliens...but claim to be a Roman Catholic...now I know you are a cafeteria catholic at best!
Really.... you can not attack me on a personal level with that one... my faith has been tested by the best... and my Bishop and 90% of the archdiocese loves me and the women i work with... so get a clue... bigot.

reply from: galen

Sure...if you think you can handle it, pick a topic on the blog and respond...but I doubt you can and doubt you will take it up...being a "pacifist" and all...**rolleyes
--------------
no but i am REALLY sure there are a few people here on this board who will destroy you ... if they do not decide to crash your spot first....
or they could just go the rout you people always understand and report you to DHS... inciting violence is a crime you know....
in gitmo you will not be heard or seen... yeah i like that idea...

reply from: galen

OK I know your types.
LOLOLOLOLOLsnicker, snicker, LOLOLOLOL
--------------------------------------------------
yep so does my husband...

reply from: galen

* startts licking her hand*
* begins to lick her husbands hand*

reply from: galen

Very true. Didn't Bush say something along these lines.......?
-----------------------
actually i think its been quoted a bunch.....

reply from: galen

------------------------
i like that even better...
hey have you guys checked out the 'blog'... you know the one no one comments on because they are too 'scared'
* shivers*

reply from: neat62

I knew you wouldn't take up the challenge...and simply because you CAN'T!
You are a typical liberal...when confronted with anything factual you RUN, but before doing so you call your opposition some names, throw out insults of any kind and then make up lame excuses for NOT actually being able to respond intelligently or articulately.
I have seen this time and time again, over the past 10 years...both online and in person...your posts are NOTHING new.

reply from: galen

yep that's the one...

reply from: neat62

Sure...if you think you can handle it, pick a topic on the blog and respond...but I doubt you can and doubt you will take it up...being a "pacifist" and all...**rolleyes
--------------
no but i am REALLY sure there are a few people here on this board who will destroy you ... if they do not decide to crash your spot first....
or they could just go the rout you people always understand and report you to DHS... inciting violence is a crime you know....
in gitmo you will not be heard or seen... yeah i like that idea...
And can you show me WHERE we have incited violence? NO...you can't...because we have NOT ever done so...we have talked about standing up and banding together in a MORE aggressive manner...we have talked about getting ANGRY enough to protest in mass...but you obviously are incapable of comprehending anything that has been said within this thread...again typical of libs who apply selective reading!
And so be it...anyone at all is welcome on our blog...we don't censor and we don't discriminate against ANY individual...we just WIN the debates with intelligence and common sense!

reply from: neat62

Ah...you like goth and aliens...but claim to be a Roman Catholic...now I know you are a cafeteria catholic at best!
Really.... you can not attack me on a personal level with that one... my faith has been tested by the best... and my Bishop and 90% of the archdiocese loves me and the women i work with... so get a clue... bigot.
Oh...but its okay for you to attack me and my faith...again typical lib...you think you can dish it out, but then can't take it...wahhhhhhhhhhh......

reply from: galen

a very intelligent statement...

reply from: galen

Sure...if you think you can handle it, pick a topic on the blog and respond...but I doubt you can and doubt you will take it up...being a "pacifist" and all...**rolleyes
--------------
no but i am REALLY sure there are a few people here on this board who will destroy you ... if they do not decide to crash your spot first....
or they could just go the rout you people always understand and report you to DHS... inciting violence is a crime you know....
in gitmo you will not be heard or seen... yeah i like that idea...
And can you show me WHERE we have incited violence? NO...you can't...because we have NOT ever done so...we have talked about standing up and banding together in a MORE aggressive manner...we have talked about getting ANGRY enough to protest in mass...but you obviously are incapable of comprehending anything that has been said within this thread...again typical of libs who apply selective reading!
And so be it...anyone at all is welcome on our blog...we don't censor and we don't discriminate against ANY individual...we just WIN the debates with intelligence and common sense!
-------------------------------
again another stupid comment from one who does not know how baqdly they speak.

reply from: neat62

Ah...you like goth and aliens...but claim to be a Roman Catholic...now I know you are a cafeteria catholic at best!
One of the most devout Catholics I know is a Goth (who is incidentally one of my closest friends - we agreed to disagree on religion and never talk about it; causes fights).
Being a Goth is largely about image. Black clothing, leather, silver jewelry, makeup, liking certain styles of music. It doesn't prevent you being Catholic.
I don't remember the commandment that says "Thou shalt not be Goth."
The same guy also writes loads of sci-fi short stories about alien cultures, starships and cybernetic stuff.
I also missed the part where the Bible says "Thou shalt not like science fiction."
Being a true goth, doesn't just simply imply one wears black...sigh...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

(b) PROHIBITION OF INTERFERENCE- A government may not--
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1)* in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.
(c) CIVIL ACTION- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.
*(1) The United States was founded on the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality. Such principles ensure that each individual is free to make the most intimate decisions free from governmental interference and discrimination.
2C says that if anyone is denied an abortion, may sue. That is a penalty. And this Bill applies to: to every Federal, State, and local statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice. And a doctors religion(matter of conscience/refusal) is now illegal. Hospitals are now mandated to perform or refer women to abortion providers.
FOCA does not say that tax payer funded abortions are included, but they are, because they are not excluded, and this federal bill applies to all fed, state, and localities.

reply from: galen

another statement by a know it all...who knows nothing as most know it alls are...

reply from: neat62

How sad not to ever hear Him...He speaks through the beauty and splendor He creates...He speaks through the innocent and He speaks through children!
And umm...He is GOD...which gives Him the ability to do ANYTHING...including talking back...after all, He has done so openly to Saints throughout time!

reply from: neat62

Yes...that's the one...all are welcome...so if you have something to say, please do so...we don't censor and we don't discriminate...we just WIN!

reply from: galen

(b) PROHIBITION OF INTERFERENCE- A government may not--
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1)* in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.
(c) CIVIL ACTION- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.
*(1) The United States was founded on the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality. Such principles ensure that each individual is free to make the most intimate decisions free from governmental interference and discrimination.
2C says that if anyone is denied an abortion, may sue. That is a penalty. And this Bill applies to: to every Federal, State, and local statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice. And a doctors religion(matter of conscience/refusal) is now illegal. Hospitals are now mandated to perform or refer women to abortion providers.
FOCA does not say that tax payer funded abortions are included, but they are, because they are not excluded, and this federal bill applies to all fed, state, and localities.
------------------------
again NOT what the bill says.... but as my 13 year old says... some people just didn't pay attention in civics class/ law class....

reply from: leftistdestroyer

A woman should not need to be in the company of a man to not be raped.
In Utopia yeah. This aint Utopia.

reply from: galen

How sad not to ever hear Him...He speaks through the beauty and splendor He creates...He speaks through the innocent and He speaks through children!
And umm...He is GOD...which gives Him the ability to do ANYTHING...including talking back...after all, He has done so openly to Saints throughout time!
-------------------------------------
Great i'll run tell the Pope these bigots have just been sainted...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

LOL Thats all you got?

reply from: galen

* yawn* i think i'll go to bed now... my husband is bored... so am i...
i was waiting for some great manifesto or something... even the unibomber had more style....
oh well what can you expect from someone who did not pay attention in school... or learn to read critically.

reply from: neat62

Sure...if you think you can handle it, pick a topic on the blog and respond...but I doubt you can and doubt you will take it up...being a "pacifist" and all...**rolleyes
--------------
no but i am REALLY sure there are a few people here on this board who will destroy you ... if they do not decide to crash your spot first....
or they could just go the rout you people always understand and report you to DHS... inciting violence is a crime you know....
in gitmo you will not be heard or seen... yeah i like that idea...
And can you show me WHERE we have incited violence? NO...you can't...because we have NOT ever done so...we have talked about standing up and banding together in a MORE aggressive manner...we have talked about getting ANGRY enough to protest in mass...but you obviously are incapable of comprehending anything that has been said within this thread...again typical of libs who apply selective reading!
And so be it...anyone at all is welcome on our blog...we don't censor and we don't discriminate against ANY individual...we just WIN the debates with intelligence and common sense!
-------------------------------
again another stupid comment from one who does not know how baqdly they speak.
At least I can spell...**rolleyes

reply from: leftistdestroyer

(b) PROHIBITION OF INTERFERENCE- A government may not--
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1)* in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.
(c) CIVIL ACTION- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.
*(1) The United States was founded on the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality. Such principles ensure that each individual is free to make the most intimate decisions free from governmental interference and discrimination.
2C says that if anyone is denied an abortion, may sue. That is a penalty. And this Bill applies to: to every Federal, State, and local statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice. And a doctors religion(matter of conscience/refusal) is now illegal. Hospitals are now mandated to perform or refer women to abortion providers.
FOCA does not say that tax payer funded abortions are included, but they are, because they are not excluded, and this federal bill applies to all fed, state, and localities.
------------------------
again NOT what the bill says.... but as my 13 year old says... some people just didn't pay attention in civics class/ law class....
What does it say?

reply from: galen

for those who need a lesson...
i find these 2 dolts about as challenging as a bag of dead maggots.

reply from: neat62

What would you know about being a 'true goth'?
It's a subculture. Like any subculture it has many variants.
You're confusing Satanists with Goths.
Some Goths are Satanists, but not all Satanists are Goths.
What do you know about what I know? I see you are friends with galen, you like to assume too...she needed back up I suppose??

reply from: neat62

(b) PROHIBITION OF INTERFERENCE- A government may not--
(2) discriminate against the exercise of the rights set forth in paragraph (1)* in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information.
(c) CIVIL ACTION- An individual aggrieved by a violation of this section may obtain appropriate relief (including relief against a government) in a civil action.
*(1) The United States was founded on the principles of individual liberty, personal privacy, and equality. Such principles ensure that each individual is free to make the most intimate decisions free from governmental interference and discrimination.
2C says that if anyone is denied an abortion, may sue. That is a penalty. And this Bill applies to: to every Federal, State, and local statute, ordinance, regulation, administrative order, decision, policy, practice. And a doctors religion(matter of conscience/refusal) is now illegal. Hospitals are now mandated to perform or refer women to abortion providers.
FOCA does not say that tax payer funded abortions are included, but they are, because they are not excluded, and this federal bill applies to all fed, state, and localities.
------------------------
again NOT what the bill says.... but as my 13 year old says... some people just didn't pay attention in civics class/ law class....
Yea, its unfortunate that you choose selective reading methods...perhaps your 13 year old can help you with understanding it??

reply from: neat62

How sad not to ever hear Him...He speaks through the beauty and splendor He creates...He speaks through the innocent and He speaks through children!
And umm...He is GOD...which gives Him the ability to do ANYTHING...including talking back...after all, He has done so openly to Saints throughout time!
-------------------------------------
Great i'll run tell the Pope these bigots have just been sainted...
Again, more personal attacks because its all YOU have...typical liberal...

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Hey Gaylen, where did you and your little friends go?

reply from: neat62

Yes...go run and hide...again typical lib....throw insults and then run cause you can't articulate ANY sort of intelligent response.

reply from: neat62

I know enough not to be

reply from: neat62

Has nothing to do with the topic at hand...I know plenty...as I said, I know enough not to be...you want to learn more about it...go join a club!

reply from: Faramir

I've gone through the past six pages and still cannot figure out what the argument is about. Can anyone clue me in?

reply from: cracrat

You know not of what you speak stupid woman. We have social healthcare here in sunny UK (it actually is sunny right now, joy!). Not fabulous, but I get to see a doctor when I need to, get any medication I need cheaper than I'd get it at a pharmacy, if I go to hospital there's no initial argument over who's paying for this before the doctor sees me. Then we had the marvellous B.liar govt who decided to get big business involved, including United Health. They've been cherry picking the most profitable aspects of health, starving hospitals of the bread and butter procedures that make up the bulk of their funding. Hospitals have been hobbled to big business with PFI (private finance initiative) schemes. In short private healthcare is ruining healthcare in this country.
I have never had a problem with social healthcare. I have always got the treatment I need promptly and effectively. The single occassion my family has put itself in the hands of private healthcare, they *****ed it up royally. My mum went in for a hysterectomy, after the operation she was supposed to be checked on every half hour, she was checked on once in 7 hours. She was left sat in a pool of her own blood for hours before someone finally responded to the call button. She was sent home too early, in pain because the medication she was given wasn't strong enough and constipated because the dosage was wrong. There is a chance that the idiot who performed the operation nicked something he shouldn't so she now has kidney problems, her specialist says he sees more kidney problems caused by gyno ops that any other preventable cause. In short, private healthcare is a disaster and I will never put myself in their hands.

reply from: yoda

What has any of this to do with the topic: "Should We Show Abortion Images? "?

reply from: faithman

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. BUMP

reply from: yoda

You better watch out, FM, ole Fartnomore will jump all over you for posting stuff like that, or this:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. BUMP

reply from: galen

for those of you latecomers... this devolved into a trollfest because 2 newbies decided to take over the topic as an ad for thier blog... one that supports overthrowing OBAMA and the govenment et at... they throw in FOCA as a tease to prolifers... but do not know how to read the billl.... they want to be important... i was bored... so i had a bit of fun with them..
sorry Yoda.

reply from: Faramir

But it's good to see that faithman and yodavater can join in the spirit of trollishness.

reply from: yoda

Oh, okay..... I was sort of turned off by the conversation myself. I'd rather see such disputes taken to email or PM, but then I've been guilty of such myself. Cést la víe!

reply from: nancyu

Gee for someone who claims to be a pacifist...you sure do enjoy making personal attacks on others. **rolleyes
---------------------------------
gee i have not begun to attack you... but rest assured that when i do you will not be able to miss it.
LOL! I missed this whole thing, until just now. I think I can vouch for you here galen!

reply from: galen

yeah nancy... but they were too boring to inspire...* shrugs* * kicks dirt w/ toe*
BTW i am unable to be Goth and be catholic... did you know about this?!
to bad someone forgot to tell the Pope.
i still ahev that pic of me and JPII around someplace. OH yeah... its in the chapel in our house.

reply from: nancyu

hmm... maybe I'll try on the goth look, and see if they'll let me back in. There is a sign on the Catholic Church in town that says "Catholics can always come home" It doesn't say "... unless they're goth"

reply from: galen

you are welcome at the cathedral anytime

reply from: faithman

But it's good to see that faithman and yodavater can join in the spirit of trollishness.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. bump

reply from: leftistdestroyer

All lies. We entered this debate with debate. Your arrogant, condascending Liberal attidude forced it to progress to this chidlish nonsense.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Neither has the pro life movment in 35 years. Time for a new tactic, as I have offered in prior posts in this thread. If you even bothered to notice.

reply from: galen

no remember they had no idea who Paul Hill was untill i told them... uninformed beings that they are...

reply from: galen

what no catchy comeback?

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Neither has the pro life movment in 35 years. Time for a new tactic, as I have offered in prior posts in this thread. If you even bothered to notice.
I noticed. What do you want, a cookie? All you have really done is keep saying we need to be "outraged," and share your petty assumptions about what some of us have done for this cause. I wasn't sufficiently impressed by anything you posted to respond...
I really dont give a*****if you are impressed or not. My whole point is that what you do, is not good enough. We are losing the legal battle. Hearts and minds are not good enough. While you may change a few hearts and minds, 2700 a day are being ripped out of thier mother. Not good enough. Noble effort, without a doubt, but not enough. That is my only point.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

BS. Is his picture on my fridge at home? No. Have I heard of him? Yep.

reply from: galen

really then why did you 2 have to ask who he was...?
you being such an informed person and all...that name has been ringing in the hallowed halls of the prolife movement as of the day he shot the doctor. its most often used as an example of what NOT to do.
and BTW not 1 woman as far as i have ever heard ever came forward and said she did not abort because of what he did. However if you can find one i'll be happy to listen.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

Different tactic there. His point was not to change hearts. His point was to end abortion

reply from: galen

Different tactic there. His point was not to change hearts. His point was to end abortion
_______________________________
and my point is that it did not work.

reply from: carolemarie

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on.
Paul Hill murdered two innocent unarmed people, lost his own life, left his kids without a father and violated the commandment thou shall not kill.

reply from: joe

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on.
Paul Hill murdered two innocent unarmed people, lost his own life, left his kids without a father and violated the commandment thou shall not kill.
Paul Hill x 1000 = crippled abortion industry.

reply from: galen

leftist... let me give you a bit of backround here...as it relates to PH.
my family is irish...i grew up in the US and Ireland and england... depending on who was watching kids in my family and what schools were wanted for us.
my family had many people in the IRA..many who died for what they belived in..
and none of thier deaths, torture at the hands of the english etc. ever did anything to make things better in ireland. They became thugs, murderers and prooved themselves no better than the English thugs and murderers they fought against. they left wives and children and girlfriends to live with the stigma of what they had done.
the small gains that have been made were not made by violence but by diplomacy and words... sometimes harsh words and by showing the country what the English had done.
i went to too many pointless wakes for people who died that were both innocent and guilty.
Paul hill was like these men...he killed people who may have had a chance to redeem themselves had they been given a chance. he left children that live with the legacy of what he had done. he was only a hero to a few and a matyr to a few... but most were horrified.
Same with the bombings and the fires and the other forms of terrorism.
i can not condone violence...period. it is futile.

reply from: joe

To defend innocent life is not terrorism.
It is futile because it is not your life....very selfish.

reply from: galen

its futile because it does not work... if it worked i might be persuaded... but it did not.

reply from: galen

i have officially clled a truce between me and leftist... no more ugly names for now.

reply from: yoda

"Innocent"? Really?
Neither one was guilty of killing babies? Really?

reply from: carolemarie

Innocent in that they were breaking no laws.
The part you refuse to understand is that we don't get to murder other lawabiding citizens we disagree with. The right to life applies to all life, not just unborn children.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

There comes a point all all battle or wars, where, if the current tactic is not working, then a new one must be tried. I admit, I feel that we are two points away from violence. But we have not exhausted any and all means first.
I call for a restructure and unification of all pro life groups, under one name.
I call for more frequent protests.
I call for larger protests.
I call for more vocal in your face protests. (I stress this one most)
I call for more local politician protests, even if they claim to be pro life.
I call for more expressed outrage. (I stress this one most)
While many feel that changing hearts and minds is the winning solution, I feel that that is only good enough as a private method, not to be our main style of attack.
Locally around where I live, they have one protest a month for 2 hours. How can anyone see that as a "feel good" measure for those protesting? That is a waste of time. If we can get multiple pro life groups, to protest every sat(and more) bringing larger groups, and show more expressed outrage, all over the nation, that can have a more noticable effect. Particulalry if it is the politicans who are at the recieving end of the protest.
If, this accomplishes nothing, within a certain time frame, then a different method will be needed. A more potent one.
Unification is critial. The march on Washigton is nice, but worthless. Politicans and the courts will not and do not respond to PC polite protests unless we have MASSIVE numbers.
If the majority of pro lifers are armchair warriors, then the truley active minority, must make it count.
Just my opinions.
For the record, I do see abortion as the murder of a human being, worth defending at any and all costs.

reply from: ProInformed

"Let them see the images if they are sexually active. The images should be a part of sex education."
I totally agree 4given.
IMHO the stupid notion that one can start enjoying the priveledges of adulthood several years before having the responsibilities of adulthood is destroying marirages/families and increasing sociopathic tendencies in society also.
When you're old enough to drive you're also old enough to be expected to obey traffic laws; we don't let teens speed, drive while intoxicated, drive without insurance, etc. just because hey they're still young so let's not spoil their fun with the responsibilities that go along with the grown-up activity, do we? If we stupidly starting letting people drive or drink without ALSO REQUIRING them to do so responsibly, drunk driving deaths would skyrocket. If auto insurance wasn't required, speeding wasn't illegal, drunk-driving was allowed, for even a brief period of time after young people got their license (let alone for the years or decades people are increasingly spending in an 'adult-child' phase), even fewer young people would drink or drive responsibly. Imagine what would happen if we just let young people decide when they're grown-up enough to start drinking or driving AND THEN also let them decide when, if ever, they're grown-up enough to be held responsible for their drinking or driving?!?!?
I think adult status should be a clearly, legally defined status that you can acquire at a certain age (like you can get your driver's license or buy/drink alcohol once you reach the legal age). It is illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor. Children shouldn't have sex period - even with other children. Sex is an adult activity between consenting adults. A LOT of abortions are because the biological parents of the aborted babies claim they are grown-up enough to have sex... but then the same 'grown-ups' claim they are too young to have the adult responsibilities that come with the choice to start having sex.
And now we have all these idiots (who think they're all grown-up because they have sex) but NEVER really grow up and take responsibility like an adult! Look at all the deadbeat dads and midlife crisis creeps who think acting like a bimboy makes them a 'man'; AND the bimbos who envy them and want to be just as sleazy and irresponsible as those bimboys too are really pathetic.
If people had to agree to adult responsibilities in order to engage in adult activities most of the 'so-called 'need' for abortion would vaporize. If they had to sign a statement to declare adulthood, agreeing that they are ready for adult responsibilites TOO, that would solve so many problems.

reply from: yoda

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on. .
BTW, what tactic has worked, and ended abortion?

reply from: yoda

That is NOT the only meaning of "innocent". If you meant "innocent of breaking laws" you should have so stated. They sure as hell were not innocent of killing babies.
I don't? What gave you the idea that I don't know about criminal laws?
And where is this "right to life" you speak of written down? And why doesn't it apply to unborn human beings?

reply from: nancyu

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on.
Paul Hill murdered two innocent unarmed people, lost his own life, left his kids without a father and violated the commandment thou shall not kill.
Abortion is NOT legal. It is permitted. That does not mean it is legal. An unborn child is a person. It is NOT legal to murder persons. Calling murder of an unborn child "abortion" doesn't make it NOT murder.
Please stop saying it is "legal" It is not. Especially not, if you are pro life.

reply from: faithman

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on.
Paul Hill murdered two innocent unarmed people, lost his own life, left his kids without a father and violated the commandment thou shall not kill.
Abortion is NOT legal. It is permitted. That does not mean it is legal. An unborn child is a person. It is NOT legal to murder persons. Calling murder of an unborn child "abortion" doesn't make it NOT murder.
Please stop saying it is "legal" It is not. Especially not, if you are pro life.
Aint it funny how she gets pissed when we call her a murderer for killing womb children, but wants to call Hill a murderer for stopping children from being slaughtered that day? She is a selfish murderous phony, and would rather have abortionist protected for future killer moms, than actually protecting womb children from the likes of her baby killing behind.

reply from: nancyu

It didn't work, abortion is still legal and goes on and on.
Paul Hill murdered two innocent unarmed people, lost his own life, left his kids without a father and violated the commandment thou shall not kill.
Abortion is NOT legal. It is permitted. That does not mean it is legal. An unborn child is a person. It is NOT legal to murder persons. Calling murder of an unborn child "abortion" doesn't make it NOT murder.
Please stop saying it is "legal" It is not. Especially not, if you are pro life.
Aint it funny how she gets pissed when we call her a murderer for killing womb children, but wants to call Hill a murderer for stopping children from being slaughtered that day? She is a selfish murderous phony, and would rather have abortionist protected for future killer moms, than actually protecting womb children from the likes of her baby killing behind.
Sure is funny. ROFL


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