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How to explain abortion to a child?

by: MotherForLife

A friend of one of my close friends had an abortion recently and she already has two children. She was about 4 months gone when her husband lost his job and they felt they couldn't cope with another mouth to feed. The funny thing was that even though they hadn't told the children she was pregnant, her daughter, who is six, asked her, "Mummy where's the baby gone?" She must have overheard some conversation or something but they were gobsmacked and my friend told me that they just told the little girl that the baby had gone to Heaven because it wasn't ready to be born yet.
How would you explain abortion to a child? At what age would you think it was appropriate, if at all?

reply from: cracrat

For a very young child I'd avoid using words like kill or murder for one. Something along the lines of the baby was taken out of mummy's tummy, perhaps given to someone else. If they're a bit older perhaps explain it in a little more detail but spare them the medical jargon and gory details. A teenager probably just tell the truth, no holds barred.
Exactly what age you tell them depends on the child. I think I could have understood my parents telling me quite young but there are some of my peers who could probably still do without such knowledge.

reply from: sk1bianca

well, i have a friend who was 17 when her mom told her she had an abortion and she took it really hard... her mom said she had been married before with a nasty guy and he forced her to have an abortion and she should have had a 23 year old brother. she was really depressed after that, especially because she always wanted a borther to take care of her (she's always been a lonely girl). that's when she started to learn more about abortion and realized how horrible it was and became pro-life. she wasn't angry on her mom or anything like that, but she's still very sad and looking for "replacement" borthers in her friends.
as for little children... that's a good question. how do you tell a child that his little brother or sister is gone? they don't see embryos, fetuses, "choices", "women's rights"... they see BABIES. they love them and anxioulsly wait for them to be born, to play with them... and the most embarassing thing is that one day they will realise that the baby actually ended up into a trash can behind an abortion clinic.

reply from: yoda

At whatever age the child asked for information, it is appropriate to give it.
I would explain it in terms the child could understand, and tell the truth. You can never go wrong being honest.

reply from: yoda

"From the mouths of babes".....
Yeah, that "delayed truth" thing really is a b****h...... probably better to let the cat out of the bag right away....

reply from: Beprolifewithme

Aww, I'm sorry for your friend, I'll keep her family in our prayers! I always wonder how pro-choice people explain their beliefs to their little kids...so sad.

reply from: nancyu

I wouldn't have explained it this way, but, then again, I wouldn't murder my own child either.
http://www.lifeissues.org/ultrasound/25weeks.htm Even if I had just lost my job.

reply from: LolitaOlivia

Just say "Mommy wasn't ready to have another baby so the doctor took him out of her tummy."

reply from: nancyu

And how would you handle the follow up questions, babykiller? Or don't you think there would be any.

reply from: Antibigot

Kids aren't stupid. What if he or she asked what happened to the baby? There is no way to explain it without admitting that the unborn baby was killed.

reply from: nancyu

Kids aren't stupid. What if he or she asked what happened to the baby? There is no way to explain it without admitting that the unborn baby was killed.
My thoughts exactly.

reply from: lukesmom

Children aren't stupid and deserve the truth. I wouldn't recommend telling them: or
How potentially terrifying to a child; to think "their" baby was given away or taken away by a doctor! That is nightmare stuff for a young child, wondering if mommy is going to give THEM away or a doctor is going to take them away from mommy. Sheesh! If you are going to kill your child you better think a little harder to try to protect your other children from reality...
Yea, try lying, nothing like teaching morals and integrety at an early age...

reply from: cracrat

I believe I qualified
with "A very young child". Sure the second part is a blatent lie, but I'd not feel guilty about it to prevent upsetting one so young. It's sometimes not kind to burden people with the full horrors of the world until they've learnt how to deal with them a little better. Not sure how you 'compassionate' folk don't see that.

reply from: NoelleNostalgia

Should I get over my fear of sex and child bearing someday, i will always answer my children's questions truthfully.

reply from: sander

or
How potentially terrifying to a child; to think "their" baby was given away or taken away by a doctor! That is nightmare stuff for a young child, wondering if mommy is going to give THEM away or a doctor is going to take them away from mommy. Sheesh! If you are going to kill your child you better think a little harder to try to protect your other children from reality...
Yea, try lying, nothing like teaching morals and integrety at an early age...
Exactly, Sue. Sometimes adults don't think beyond their own noses. This woman didn't think beyond her own fears. Which exposes yet another lie that it's all about privacy.
Nothing we do in this life affects only ourselves, nothing.
I would suggest this mother gets ahold of a professional child counselor and get good solid advice on how to deal honestly and in a way that will make her child feel safe.

reply from: lukesmom

with "A very young child". Sure the second part is a blatent lie, but I'd not feel guilty about it to prevent upsetting one so young. It's sometimes not kind to burden people with the full horrors of the world until they've learnt how to deal with them a little better. Not sure how you 'compassionate' folk don't see that.
I UNDERSTAND what you are saying better than you think as I had to tell my children their unborn baby was going to die. I don't care how you "sugar coat" it, if you tell a child the baby in mummy's tummy was given to someone else, you are potentially creating a fear of being given away for the remaining child. Lying also never works unless you want to teach that lying is ok. Why is it that adults think kids are so stupid, even very young children? Maybe it is because they don't rationalize to hide the truth from themselves?

reply from: sk1bianca

the main problem is that the kid will eventually ask more and more questions. and if he's not given a reasonable answer he will start looking for information someplace else. and will eventually find out the truth. and then you have to explain how mom actually had the "right" to have her baby killed by some doctor. can we really expect a child to understand or approve with this?
i know a woman who had an abortion and said to one of her kids "shut up and be glad it wasn't you"!

reply from: sander

*sigh*....how can someone be so cruel? The culture of death has produced some very cold hearted people.

reply from: Banned Member

Better yet!
Can you imagine if you had heard about abortion for the first time... today?

reply from: sander

You mean, worse yet.
It just gets more heart breaking by the day.

reply from: AshMarie88

with "A very young child". Sure the second part is a blatent lie, but I'd not feel guilty about it to prevent upsetting one so young. It's sometimes not kind to burden people with the full horrors of the world until they've learnt how to deal with them a little better. Not sure how you 'compassionate' folk don't see that.
Yes and then when they're older and wanna know more about their sibling, what will the mom say then? Oh I can't tell you because I don't know, I killed your sibling... Then he/she will be angry and disappointed the mom lied to him/her in the first place.

reply from: AshMarie88

Last year I believe it was, my 3 little cousins were staying the night at my house and all 3 were in the room, and my 12-year-old cousin at the time (he is 13 now) asked me "what is abortion?" And I told him I can't tell you, the kids are in the room. Even tho I was 11 when I learned what abortion was, I think it was for the best, FOR NOW, that my cousin doesn't know what it is. No child wants to hear that it's legal to kill little babies.

reply from: sheri

CP your right to warn about the mistake of making sex a "dirty" topic, honesty is always the best policy.
I will often hear a proabort say "what if a child sees that sign?!!" when they are ranting against showing the picture of an aborted baby. Children understand better then the adults do the reality of abortion, they are very honest and seem to except things if they explained in truethful terms, its the adults who are unable to make the child see that it is "ok" to do that to a baby that get upset.

reply from: AshMarie88

With all the rape, murder, genocide, wars, animal abuse in the world, you'd think the last thing pro-aborts would be worrying about is showing a dead blob of flesh to children...

reply from: jujujellybean

Lets pretend I'm five:
"Where did the baby go?"
"How did they get it out of your tummy?"
"Why don't you want a baby, mommy?"
These seem like complicated questions, but being around kids I KNOW these are things they would ask. They understand a lot more than we think. They would ask these. And eventually, they'd learn the truth and it would hurt all the more.

reply from: galen

----------------------------------
i absolutely agree

reply from: carolemarie

i don't think you should tell a child about abortion, especially if its over your abortion. There is no point served in discussing this with a child. They are way to young to understand the topic.
If they find out, perhaps you could say that this baby died and is in heaven with God. Which is true.

reply from: galen

i agree the signs should be used sparingly... but there use does serve some purpose... here on the board, but not possibly in fron t of a church or kindergarten.

reply from: AshMarie88

With all the rape, murder, genocide, wars, animal abuse in the world, you'd think the last thing pro-aborts would be worrying about is showing a dead blob of flesh to children...

reply from: carolemarie

Is it true? What if the child reads Ecclesiastes chapter 9? Which will you say is true?
I don't get the question.
Yes, the child is dead and it is with God. True statements. Ends the questioning.

reply from: sheri

The OT is so hard to understand, this fellow sounds like he was smoking something. There are other places though in the bible that talk about a life hereafter, what is your take on the apparent contradiction?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

What a horrible response. They lied to the little girl and told her everything is sunshine and roses and baby is in heaven. She should have flat out told the truth, "We killed your little brother or sister because we didn't want to feed him or her."
Cold hard reality hurts. We need to live in the real world and face up to our actions. Young children need to understand how adults work and think at a young age.

reply from: lukesmom

5 years ago my dh and I had to explain to our kids, ages 10-4, that the baby we were all expecting was going to die. We kept our explaination pretty basic and answered their questions as truthfully as we could in terms appropriate to their age and understanding. We encouraged questions and conversation about their baby's living and dying. They all adapted well and handled Luke's death better than we expected. Our oldest 2 are now 15 and 13. When they were old enough to handle it we told them the whole story about Luke and being given the choice to abort him. They were horrified to think their brother could have been aborted. The idea was so repugnant to them, they had not concidered that anyone would have thought their brother not worthy of life. When our younger two are ready, we will give them the full story too. Children see with honesty. Adults become very skilled at believing their own lies... Is evading the truth, in regards to children, to protect the child or to protect the parent?

reply from: carolemarie

King David, Solomons dad who wrote the Ecclesatic believed in a heaven. When his child was sick he fasted and when it died he ate saying, my son will not come to me but I will go to him. He understood that there was a resurrection. Job did too. He said I know my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God. I myself will see him with my own eyes, I and not another! There are references all through the OT to an afterlife.

reply from: AshMarie88

I'm with CP on this one. Only God's chosen ones go to Heaven.

reply from: AshMarie88

144, 000 of them?
Yes.

reply from: AshMarie88

Don't say you're with me. I don't necessarily believe this, I'm just talking about what the Bible actually says...
I'm just saying I agree with what you're pointing out, or saying.

reply from: AshMarie88

I've read the scripture.

reply from: sk1bianca

orthodox christianity says only baptized people go to heaven (John 3:5). however, since unborn children have no sins they cannot be sentenced to hell (which is more like a prison now, the really bad hell will come after the final judgement, when both body and soul will suffer) so God keeps their souls in a place where they are not in His presence and cannot see Him. such a condition causes them great sadness.
that's why orthodox christians consider abortion such a great sin. because the soul of the unborn child cannot enter heaven (no baptism, no good deeds). the mother takes not only the baby's life but his chance of being with God.
the Bible aslo says there are 2 forms of death. death of the body and death of the soul. hell is eternal death (both of them). heaven (after the final judgement) is eternal life in the presence of God, of both body and soul.

reply from: xnavy

i disagree on this, unborn babies go to the Lord because they committed no sin. my church believes that parents are responsible
for the sins of the kids til the kids reach the age of accountibily

reply from: faithman

How about the truth baby killer? Why can't you admit that you murdered 3 womb children? You are real good at telling lies, so it does not suprise me that you would advocate lieing to children about the brutal hate crime of killing womb children. At least you remain consistant. You continue to try and cover your stinking thinking with the false purfume of perverted faith. In case no one has told you, it still stinks.

reply from: joe

How old were those that came to John the Baptist? The innocent children are free from sin, they are with God.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

How old were those that came to John the Baptist? The innocent children are free from sin, they are with God.
God wants everyone to come to full maturity, Jesus Christ being the example. We are called to be followers, to be imitators of Christ. Over 130 times in the NT we are told to follow; we follow Christ's example.
Death is the absence of life, it is not a life separated from God.
I believe preborn children who have been aborted await the resurrection; like the other dead, they are not presently conscious. There shall be a resurrection of the good and the bad. Then the books will be opened (the books of the Bible to their understanding). They shall be judged according to what is written in the books (most people are not presently being judged by what is written in the Bible). However, judgment begins at the House of the Lord; those now called are receiving eternal judgment (either life or death). Those not found written in the Book of Life will die forever (existence ends permanently).
Most living today seem to set a course towards perishing and death. But I believe they will yet be offered an opportunity for life; for the meaning of the Bible is closed and sealed to them, it is an incomprehensible parable, by God's command: "Let them have eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear." Man has been given his days to do his own work; a work that leads towards death.

reply from: carolemarie

How old were those that came to John the Baptist? The innocent children are free from sin, they are with God.
God wants everyone to come to full maturity, Jesus Christ being the example. We are called to be followers, to be imitators of Christ. Over 130 times in the NT we are told to follow; we follow Christ's example.
Death is the absence of life, it is not a life separated from God.
I believe preborn children who have been aborted await the resurrection; like the other dead, they are not presently conscious. There shall be a resurrection of the good and the bad. Then the books will be opened (the books of the Bible to their understanding). They shall be judged according to what is written in the books (most people are not presently being judged by what is written in the Bible). However, judgment begins at the House of the Lord; those now called are receiving eternal judgment (either life or death). Those not found written in the Book of Life will die forever (existence ends permanently).
Most living today seem to set a course towards perishing and death. But I believe they will yet be offered an opportunity for life; for the meaning of the Bible is closed and sealed to them, it is an incomprehensible parable, by God's command: "Let them have eyes that don't see and ears that don't hear." Man has been given his days to do his own work; a work that leads towards death.
This is Biblical (according to my understanding of the book). An unborn child would have never heard the gospel, and would therefore have never rejected it. The Bible does not say those will be condemned without ever having had that chance. I can not imagine "God" would judge them harshly, despite any Christian's personal interpretation of the scriptures, but it does say only God knows what is in the heart...
Of course, I stand by my contention that it is not Biblical to assert that any of the dead are in "heaven" now. It makes people feel better to believe their dead relatives and friends are "with God" and "looking down on them," and I do not assert that this is not the case (I do not know), but only that such a belief is not supported by my understanding of scripture...
!. For SkyB, being baptised isn't required to go to heaven. Trusting in Jesus is what gets you to heaven.
2. CP: Everyone who has died is either in heaven or hell. You die and then comes the judgment. The future judgment for the whole world comes after the 1000 year reign.

reply from: jujujellybean

well, not necessarily Carole. There is also purgatory, which is a place we Catholics believe in. God is a merciful God, but he would not be a just God(which we know he is) unless he made us also make up for our sins in some way. Do you think we would pay for our sins or make up for them in Heaven or hell? Not possible, because those are both final destinations and to suffer at all in Heaven is impossible; and once in hell, you can't make up for anything. therefore, there must be some other place where we must go to make up for our offenses.
There is a women living right now that has been to Purgatory and Heaven and Hell. She has some books out, and I am pretty sure she's legit because she is not profiting at all from writing them; the money goes elsewhere. Jesus told her to write them, so she did. All her books have the author's name of 'Ann.'
This part is mainly for us Catholics who do believe in purgatory:
This lady says when she was there in purgatory, there was a woman in a misty place, crying and sobbing and in utter distress. She asked Jesus what the woman had done. Jesus said that she had an abortion.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Carolemarie and jujujellybean; you are both wrong in your most recent posts.
As for that so-called legit book about someone back from purgatory who was told to write a book about it by Jesus; ridiculous. James Dobson of Focus on the Family said God told his father about Jim's future successes and great work for "God"; again, hogwash.
The Bible warns that there would be many lying spirits deceiving people.

reply from: yoda

If a child asks you about abortion, and asks you if you've had one, what would you say?
How young is "way too young"? Are all children "way too young" to understand that violence against babies is wrong? Or just certain ones?
And what if they ask you what killed the baby? What then?

reply from: yoda

Right, you'd rather they grow up and kill their own kids..... no nightmares that way, right?

reply from: yoda

They are deathly afraid that the kids will understand all too well.......

reply from: yoda

Then why not just answer the question in the thread title?

reply from: yoda

By George, I think you've got something there......

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

By George, I think you've got something there......
Evading the truth is done to protect the parent. The parent isn't ready to explain their very inappropriate actions; to face up and say they killed a young child. They don't want the living child to know these bad things about them. It is painful for the parent to be confronted with what they have done. They want their actions to be dead, buried and forgotten about.

reply from: nancyu

You are a good person. And it's good that you were able to be truthful with your children. In your case, you didn't have to explain to your child that you were a murderer. It would be kind of hard to tell the truth in that case. I think if I were the child who found out her mother had aborted my sibling, I would feel insecure, to say the least. I think I would want new parents.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

That won't fly. You have to show me scripture...
I see your signature says "God please save me from your followers. Amen" God has few followers; confused souls maybe. God says he knows the plans he has for you. Plans to give you hope and a solid future. People today don't understand patience; they are ready to draw out the sword and dispatch the unbelievers quickly. I am ready to tell sodomites, abortionists, and Satan (Allah) followers that they are wrong. But I'm not drawing out my own personal sword to wreck justice and punishment. I do encourage the government to outlaw and penalize the previously mentioned activities. Muslims certainly should not be allowed to immigrate here, even if the majority do not understand or follow Allah and Muhammad's call for Jihad.

reply from: galen

---------------------------------------
just like KING JAMES.. right GL4U2L?

reply from: galen

That won't fly. You have to show me scripture...
------------------------------------------
its in the passages about the seventy vestal virgins for martyrs... oh wait no its not in thier bible... its in the ... in the....your right where is it?

reply from: yoda

That enticement isn't working anymore.... since they found out the virgins are all Catholic Nuns.....

reply from: jujujellybean

She is a mother of six. She is gaining nothing from this. I am pretty sure that all the money is going to charity. She is not benefiting. What would she gain by lying?
And you aren't going to respond to any of my facts, are you? Do you not believe that God is just?

reply from: carolemarie

That won't fly. You have to show me scripture...
2 Corinthians 5:8
we are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Heb 9:27
As it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
Hope that helps

reply from: carolemarie

There isn't a purgatory in the bible.
If Jesus's blood and death was enough to pay for our sins, why would anyone be punished in purgatory? Either Christ work on the cross is enough or it wasn't.
The "suffering of the souls in purgatory is pointless, unless you believe Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough. You can't have it both ways.

reply from: Faramir

The Catholic faith is not sola scriptura and we believe the New Testament came from within the Church.
But purgatory is mentioned in the Bible by Paul, but not by name.
Purgatory is part of Heaven and is simply a process of purging the remaining selfishness that clings to us. Anyone in purgatory has been saved.

reply from: carolemarie

If a child asks you about abortion, and asks you if you've had one, what would you say? [B]I would tell them no.
How young is "way too young"? Are all children "way too young" to understand that violence against babies is wrong? Or just certain one
They are to young to process the information that their mother had an abortion. It would be cruel and mean to burden that child with information that they can't handle. The child will still be living with those parents for many years, and they need to feel safe. This is about the childs needs, not the parents needs.
And what if they ask you what killed the baby? What then?
How about I m not sure.

reply from: nancyu

I agree with this. This would be a case where it would be best to lie, in my opinion.

reply from: carolemarie

That won't fly. You have to show me scripture...
2 Corinthians 5:8
we are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Heb 9:27
As it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.
Hope that helps
I do not interpret either verse as supporting the argument that any of the dead are already in heaven. If I did, they would appear to contradict what I have gleaned from other parts of the Bible.
I will bring you more tomorrow!

reply from: carolemarie

Okay....I will let you off the hook (and spare myself having to actually chase down those cites)

reply from: yoda

So no matter what the age of the child, you would just lie? What lesson does that teach the child? That lying is best, or that mommy knows best?
So what the child "needs", no matter what age (up to 21, right?) is to be lied to? Lie to the child to give him/her a FALSE sense of security, right?
When do you teach the child about honesty? Or do they have to learn that on their own?

How about I m not sure.
Oh, yet another lie. At least, you're consistent. After all those lies, why would a child believe anything you have to say?
Thanks for responding.

reply from: 4given

I explained it to my children when they first asked about it. I believe they were between the ages of 4 and 6. I kept it simple. Naturally they came back with a lot more questions later on. They all have seen the graphic images, even though I tried to keep the late -term images from them, per the request of my spouse. My children help to educate their peers. I overheard my eight year old explaining abortion to a friend of his. He stated "Can you believe that people can pay someone to kill their baby? That is an abortion."

reply from: nancyu

I explained it to my children when they first asked about it. I believe they were between the ages of 4 and 6. I kept it simple. Naturally they came back with a lot more questions later on. They all have seen the graphic images, even though I tried to keep the late -term images from them, per the request of my spouse. My children help to educate their peers. I overheard my eight year old explaining abortion to a friend of his. He stated "Can you believe that people can pay someone to kill their baby? That is an abortion."

4Given, I think this is the best way to explain it to a child.
But someone who doesn't regret her abortion is better off lying (IMO) At least at the present moment when society is somewhat accepting of abortion. How would a young child feel safe in that home, and where could he go to feel safe?
How someone who is not sorry for having an abortion would ever truthfully explain it to their other children, without hurting them deeply, I have no idea. And they say pro life is shortsighted.

reply from: 4given

I don't know either. I can understand not wanting to share that with one's child- (having an abortion) I don't understand calling abortion a trip to Heaven or anything like that.. Abortion is an act of violence. We don't mix our words in my home. So even when I am not comfortable with my child's questions, I give them the truth (or make my spouse do it). You are right that abortion hurts far more than the mother alone. It hurts families.

reply from: yoda

Excellent. Kids only need to know the answers to the questions they actually ask, and in language they can easily understand. And in the plainest, simplest language there is, abortion is simply killing a baby. And any kid who asks about abortion ought to be told that.
This discussion reminds me a little of the old Santa Claus fib that many parents tell their kids. My parents never told me or my brothers that lie, and I will always respect them for that. We had lots of fun teasing the neighbor kids about their belief in Santa.... and how impossible it would be to deliver toys all over the world in one night. They got mad, but later on they admitted we were right.

reply from: jujujellybean

There isn't a purgatory in the bible.
If Jesus's blood and death was enough to pay for our sins, why would anyone be punished in purgatory? Either Christ work on the cross is enough or it wasn't.
The "suffering of the souls in purgatory is pointless, unless you believe Jesus's sacrifice wasn't enough. You can't have it both ways.
Tell me Carole: where in the bible does it say that we have to have 'Sola Scriptura' which you are implying by saying that it's not in the bible.
God is a just God. If we don't have to make up for our sins, then we can do whatever we want and still get to heaven?
Think of the whole thing this way: you spill wine on white fabric, and you wash it enough to where it is almost gone, but if you look hard enough you can still see the remains of where it happened. That will always be there.
When we sin, God cleans us from the sin, but it leaves an everlasting mark on our souls. In Purgatory, that stain is removed so that we can enter Heaven without any stains. Because isn't the table cloth that is perfectly white going to be chosen for the feast?

reply from: jujujellybean

Oh and about how to tell a child:
My little brothers and sisters, the youngest of whom is three, know what abortion is. Ok, the three year old doesn't understand yet, but the eight year old does. She knows that abortion kills a little baby in the tummy before it is born. To her, it is sickening. She knows the truth; not the gruesome details, but eventually she will. I remember the first time I saw a picture of an aborted baby. It was in an envelope my mom had gotten in our office. it was closed, and said do not open unless prepared or something because of graphic pictures. I opened it up, and I saw a bloody red mess, and I could point out arms, legs, and body parts in the mess. I was shocked, and wondered how I could ever stop thinking about it. I was only around eight maybe. It scared me a lot. But it just reinforced what I had already been told: abortion kills a baby. No denying it.

reply from: Faramir

So no matter what the age of the child, you would just lie? What lesson does that teach the child? That lying is best, or that mommy knows best?
So what the child "needs", no matter what age (up to 21, right?) is to be lied to? Lie to the child to give him/her a FALSE sense of security, right?
When do you teach the child about honesty? Or do they have to learn that on their own?

How about I m not sure.
Oh, yet another lie. At least, you're consistent. After all those lies, why would a child believe anything you have to say?
Thanks for responding.
I don't know what would be the best way of handling this question, but the answer is none of the child's business. Parents are not obligated to share their pasts with their children. They don't have to confess their sins to their children.
(And the usual harrassment and browbeating--this time in the form of an iterrogation--is obvious).

reply from: Faramir

I don't agree entirely with your analogy juju.
There are many who have sinned who will not go to purgatory. First, purgation can happen here in this life. And second, it's the ATTACHMENT to sin and remaining selfishness that is the problem. That's what needs to be cleansed, if it remains. If someone were to commit the most awful sin in this life, but had perfect contrition for it, I don't think for that particular sin he would need any purgatory.

reply from: nancyu

Excellent. Kids only need to know the answers to the questions they actually ask, and in language they can easily understand. And in the plainest, simplest language there is, abortion is simply killing a baby. And any kid who asks about abortion ought to be told that.
This discussion reminds me a little of the old Santa Claus fib that many parents tell their kids. My parents never told me or my brothers that lie, and I will always respect them for that. We had lots of fun teasing the neighbor kids about their belief in Santa.... and how impossible it would be to deliver toys all over the world in one night. They got mad, but later on they admitted we were right.
WHAT!!??? NO SANTA?? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! Of course Santa is real. There is no way that I could have bought all of those toys for my kids.

reply from: nancyu

Putting myself in the shoes of a young child. I would be living in terror if my mother (who is supposed to be my MOTHER) told me that she had killed my sibling (with no remorse). Where would I go? What would I do? Who would be there to defend me, if my mother decided to kill me? Can you imagine living in that kind of terror?
I believe in truth and honesty. But this might be too frightening a truth for a young child to live with. I wish we lived in a society which would rescue such a child from this situation.

reply from: Faramir

The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.

reply from: carolemarie

If we could make up for our sins, we would't need Jesus to die for us. You would just do enough good works and it would be okay. That makes what Jesus did on the cross of no valute.
To get to go to heaven we accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. That is all that is required. Salvation is a free gift. But we do try to live to please the One who died for us, because we love Him....
If you sin, you confess and God forgives you.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Excellent. Kids only need to know the answers to the questions they actually ask, and in language they can easily understand. And in the plainest, simplest language there is, abortion is simply killing a baby. And any kid who asks about abortion ought to be told that.
This discussion reminds me a little of the old Santa Claus fib that many parents tell their kids. My parents never told me or my brothers that lie, and I will always respect them for that. We had lots of fun teasing the neighbor kids about their belief in Santa.... and how impossible it would be to deliver toys all over the world in one night. They got mad, but later on they admitted we were right.
WHAT!!??? NO SANTA?? That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! Of course Santa is real. There is no way that I could have bought all of those toys for my kids.
I never told my kids about Santa, the Easter Egg bunny or the tooth fairy. My policy is to tell the truth all the time, always. My parents thought it was awful that I "stold" childhood fun from my kids such as Christmas and Easter bunnies. Truth is just too important.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

If we could make up for our sins, we would't need Jesus to die for us. You would just do enough good works and it would be okay. That makes what Jesus did on the cross of no valute.
To get to go to heaven we accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. That is all that is required. Salvation is a free gift. But we do try to live to please the One who died for us, because we love Him....
If you sin, you confess and God forgives you.
You only inherit eternal life by loving God and loving your neighbor. You will go to hell regardless of how many times you name the name of Jesus. You must do the will of your Father in heaven.
Any person continuing to practice sin intentionally will receive eternal death. Life comes from loving God and neighbor.
Your synopsis carolmarie is in grave error; such great error that it will lead people to eternal death.

reply from: kd78

ok what i'm seeing from so many here is that you should explain abortion to a young child (under 7 or 8) as follows:
an abortion is when a selfish ***** of a woman goes to a butcher (pro-aborts call them doctors) and has him stick a vacuum or cutting instrument up her vagina. the instrument or vacuum rips the unborn baby apart limb by limb. the baby suffers terribly during its killing.
-----------
i don't think it works that way. it's a tough question to answer much like "where do babies come from?" i learned that at like 8 i think from a book titled where did i come from? excellent, basic and accurate with cartoon drawings (ages 4-8 i think). i think i was too busy laughing about it for it to absorb into my brain, though. and the next year i got told about the monthly cycle, but i shrugged it off and went to play. at 12 i got my first one and had to relearn about it. so back to topic you can tell a young child what an abortion is without graphic details. the hard part is figuring out how to do that. perhaps if the little one asks say "it's when a woman goes to the doctor and helps the baby die." but i don't really know.
and ummm i'm not gonna bother with religion here. not every pro-lifer is christian or jewish or reads the bible. it'd be nice if people could remember that. you end up alienating a lot of potentially helpful people with that attitude.

reply from: yoda

Do you really think that kids don't find out these things anyway? They do, and their reaction isn't so much terror as it is anger at their mother for killing their siblings. I've heard parents threaten to kill their kids many times, and whether or not parents do that kids know they are defenseless. Many parents use death threats as a way to frighten their kids into "minding". The threat of death is always present for them, as well as for us.

reply from: yoda

I have a few people blocked out, but the ones I read didn't say anything approaching that. Did someone really say that on this thread, or are you just reading minds?
Yeah, you can. It's best to keep it as simple as possible, like saying "Sometimes the mother kills her baby because she doesn't want it".

reply from: Faramir

I think it's approaching 90% of the board, so watch your step, kd, or you're next.
How do they find out if nobody tells them?
And what makes you think that children are not capeable of understanding and forgiveness?
I don't think children look at the world and people through the eyes of cynicism and bitterness like some adults do.

reply from: sander

I only have cracrat on ignore, so unless he said that, I didn't see anyone else say anything approaching what was said above.
The simple truth always works best, imo.

reply from: carolemarie

If we could make up for our sins, we would't need Jesus to die for us. You would just do enough good works and it would be okay. That makes what Jesus did on the cross of no valute.
To get to go to heaven we accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. That is all that is required. Salvation is a free gift. But we do try to live to please the One who died for us, because we love Him....
If you sin, you confess and God forgives you.
You only inherit eternal life by loving God and loving your neighbor. You will go to hell regardless of how many times you name the name of Jesus. You must do the will of your Father in heaven.
Any person continuing to practice sin intentionally will receive eternal death. Life comes from loving God and neighbor.
Your synopsis carolmarie is in grave error; such great error that it will lead people to eternal death.
What!!! I am standing on scripture. I cast all my hope on Jesus, because if His sacrifice wasn't enough then I am doomed. I need a Savior, because I can't live right on my own.
Here is what the scriptures say:
Belive in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!
"yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of GOd."
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
Jesus did all that was necessary for us to be saved. We are to believe in the completed work of Jesus on the cross. Our part is receiving that salvation. Not trying to add to it! Jesus paid it all. The sin debt is cancelled. His righteousness saved us, not our own. All our good works and rightouness is nothing but filty rags in the sight of God. You can't add anything to what Jesus did.
All people continue to sin while on this earth. None of us is perfect. But when we sin, we confess our sins and God is faithful and just to forgive us. And we will surely be transformed into the likeness of Jesus the more we follow, obey and listen to the Holy Spirit.

reply from: carolemarie

I think it's approaching 90% of the board, so watch your step, kd, or you're next.
How do they find out if nobody tells them?
And what makes you think that children are not capeable of understanding and forgiveness?
I don't think children look at the world and people through the eyes of cynicism and bitterness like some adults do.
I told my son who is now 8 that abortion is an act that makes a baby in its mommy's tummy die. That it is very sad and we come to the clinic to help the mommies and babies live. He was okay with that explanation.
But I wouldn't tell him I had an abortion. I doubt that I will ever tell him that. That is more information than a child needs to know.
My daughters found out by stumbling across my myspace page. I was really worried that they would be appalled, hate me, be upset....whatever terrible thing I could imagine, yet both of them simply told me they were so sorry and that they loved me. God is good and He works all things out for the best.
If your prochoice you don't have these problems. You just say I had some cells removed...there wasn't a baby yet, because that is what you choose to believe. That isn't threatening or scary to the child.

reply from: Faramir

You've decided to go public, so you might be in a position to have to explain.
Otherwise, it's not their business. They don't have a right to know, and certainly they don't need to know.

reply from: carolemarie

That is true. If you decide to speak up about your past, you need to realize that your family will be affected by that decision. Which is why so many women stay silent.

reply from: yoda

My point exactly. Simple words, but truthful. No deception involved.
Even if he asks you point blank? You will lie?
Again, my point exactly. They found out, they did not live in fear that you might kill them, they did not need psychiatric treatment. And you didn't have to lie to them. What could be better?
So, why do you think your son is so different from them?

reply from: cracrat

Really? You're only ignoring little old me? I feel so special. That's really made my day.

reply from: carolemarie

If we could make up for our sins, we would't need Jesus to die for us. You would just do enough good works and it would be okay. That makes what Jesus did on the cross of no valute.
To get to go to heaven we accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. That is all that is required. Salvation is a free gift. But we do try to live to please the One who died for us, because we love Him....
If you sin, you confess and God forgives you.
You only inherit eternal life by loving God and loving your neighbor. You will go to hell regardless of how many times you name the name of Jesus. You must do the will of your Father in heaven.
Any person continuing to practice sin intentionally will receive eternal death. Life comes from loving God and neighbor.
Your synopsis carolmarie is in grave error; such great error that it will lead people to eternal death.
What!!! I am standing on scripture. I cast all my hope on Jesus, because if His sacrifice wasn't enough then I am doomed. I need a Savior, because I can't live right on my own.
Here is what the scriptures say:
Belive in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!
"yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of GOd."
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
Jesus did all that was necessary for us to be saved. We are to believe in the completed work of Jesus on the cross. Our part is receiving that salvation. Not trying to add to it! Jesus paid it all. The sin debt is cancelled. His righteousness saved us, not our own. All our good works and rightouness is nothing but filty rags in the sight of God. You can't add anything to what Jesus did.
All people continue to sin while on this earth. None of us is perfect. But when we sin, we confess our sins and God is faithful and just to forgive us. And we will surely be transformed into the likeness of Jesus the more we follow, obey and listen to the Holy Spirit.
No offense, but there's a lot more to it than John 3:16.
Sure, once you become a Christian, but salvation is a free gift that you get by faith. You just trust in Jesus to do what He said He would do.
Santification is a whole different discussion. This thread is about salvation. To be saved, you have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and who ever calls on the name of the Lord WILL be saved.

reply from: carolemarie

My point exactly. Simple words, but truthful. No deception involved.
Even if he asks you point blank? You will lie?
Again, my point exactly. They found out, they did not live in fear that you might kill them, they did not need psychiatric treatment. And you didn't have to lie to them. What could be better?
So, why do you think your son is so different from them?
He is just a little boy. When he is older it all depends on if he needs to know, ie...if I am involved in a ministry were my past is common knowledge and he would find out....

reply from: yoda

Wouldn't it be much simpler just to answer any questions he has honestly, even if to say "I'd rather not talk about that right now", or "Let's talk about that when you're older"?
Don't you see some advantage in not lying to your child?

reply from: carolemarie

I don't think I have to tell my children about my past. It is really none of their business. No matter if they ask me point blank. It is my decision to share that or not share that.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Response from CP to CM:
No offense, but there's a lot more to it than John 3:16.
Great response. In fact, it is written, "All Scripture is given by God and is profitable for instruction and correction." Leviticus continually tells us how the blood of the Sacrifice is to be applied; only in cases of ignorance or unintentional sin, never for presumptous deliberate sin. In the OT; Law and Sacrificial mercy and forgiveness were side by side; so it is today.
The complete paragraph related to John 3:16 (John 3:16-21): "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Jesus said, "The world hates me because I keep telling it that its ways are evil." Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more." To a man that was healed of his paralysis Jesus said, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Sin is the transgression of God's Law. The Law is meant to regulate personal relationships. We are required to love God and love our neighbor, the entirety of the Bible is based on these two principles. For example, stealing from your neighbor leads to conflict, war and death. Disobeying the Law leads to conflict, war and death. Life is not possible without obeying the law. Sinning leads to bad consequences, up to and including death. Sin means we are not dealing correctly with our relationships (with God and man). This causes adversarial conflicts, the resolution usually being death and destruction, sin is on the path to death.
Why did Jesus say to the healed man, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you"? Because Jesus knows sin leads to bad things happening, a natural function we observe all the time when a wronged party seeks retribution or a physical ailment results from disregarding the consequences of excessive behaviors.
Sin leads to death, always, always, always. Forgiveness of past sins does not mean a person is immune from death , war and conflict with their brother when they continue to practice sin. Jesus made it clear, anyone continuing to practice sin, who therefore hates his brother, will not inherit eternal life. One MUST obey the Law to LOVE. This is the only Way to Life. The Bible says, "God is Love." Jesus shows us the Way to love; but we must take action. We must be doers. Those who fail to do God's will shall die.
As Jesus said, "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but those who do His Father's will,"
Be a doer, not a hypocrite (Greek word for actor).

reply from: carolemarie

Jesus said, "The world hates me because I keep telling it that its ways are evil." Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more." To a man that was healed of his paralysis Jesus said, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Sin is the transgression of God's Law. The Law is meant to regulate personal relationships. We are required to love God and love our neighbor, the entirety of the Bible is based on these two principles. For example, stealing from your neighbor leads to conflict, war and death. Disobeying the Law leads to conflict, war and death. Life is not possible without obeying the law. Sinning leads to bad consequences, up to and including death. Sin means we are not dealing correctly with our relationships (with God and man). This causes adversarial conflicts, the resolution usually being death and destruction, sin is on the path to death.
Why did Jesus say to the healed man, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you"? Because Jesus knows sin leads to bad things happening, a natural function we observe all the time when a wronged party seeks retribution or a physical ailment results from disregarding the consequences of excessive behaviors.
Sin leads to death, always, always, always. Forgiveness of past sins does not mean a person is immune from death , war and conflict with their brother when they continue to practice sin. Jesus made it clear, anyone continuing to practice sin, who therefore hates his brother, will not inherit eternal life. One MUST obey the Law to LOVE. This is the only Way to Life. The Bible says, "God is Love." Jesus shows us the Way to love; but we must take action. We must be doers. Those who fail to do God's will shall die.
As Jesus said, "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but those who do His Father's will,"
Be a doer, not a hypocrite (Greek word for actor).
I don't disagree with any of this, but the question was of salvation. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn it. You can't add to it. There is nothing you can do to make up for your sins.
You don't have to do more good works than bad works.
You don't have to go to church everytime the door is open. You don't have to count beads. You don't have to be religious and you don't have to be good.
What must I do, asked the Philippian jailer, to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved=you and your household!
Paul also says, Thereforth my brothers, (speaking to the Jews) I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justifed from in the law of Moses.
The only way to heaven is a relationship with Jesus Christ.

reply from: Faramir

I think some of you are being too dogmatic in forum that is not a religious forum.
There is much here as a Catholic I would object to, but a religious debate could go on for a long time. On the other hand, it's not much fun seeing what are from my perspective some blatant errors being presented as infallible proclamations, as well as some comments that are somewhat insulting to the Catholic faith, though I believe unintended.
For the record, Catholics do not "count beads" as a way to get to heaven. They don't count them at all. Some pray the Rosary--which is an optional private devotion--and use beads as a means to keep track of the prayers they say. But the Rosary is not a way to "earn" heaven, though a prayer life can keep one from falling into serious sin.
May I suggest we start a separate thread for debating religion?
But if we don't, could we be more respectful of other beliefs and faiths? Couldn't we give each other some space and accept that they believe as they do in good faith and do not intentionally embrace error?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Jesus said, "The world hates me because I keep telling it that its ways are evil." Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more." To a man that was healed of his paralysis Jesus said, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Sin is the transgression of God's Law. The Law is meant to regulate personal relationships. We are required to love God and love our neighbor, the entirety of the Bible is based on these two principles. For example, stealing from your neighbor leads to conflict, war and death. Disobeying the Law leads to conflict, war and death. Life is not possible without obeying the law. Sinning leads to bad consequences, up to and including death. Sin means we are not dealing correctly with our relationships (with God and man). This causes adversarial conflicts, the resolution usually being death and destruction, sin is on the path to death.
Why did Jesus say to the healed man, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you"? Because Jesus knows sin leads to bad things happening, a natural function we observe all the time when a wronged party seeks retribution or a physical ailment results from disregarding the consequences of excessive behaviors.
Sin leads to death, always, always, always. Forgiveness of past sins does not mean a person is immune from death , war and conflict with their brother when they continue to practice sin. Jesus made it clear, anyone continuing to practice sin, who therefore hates his brother, will not inherit eternal life. One MUST obey the Law to LOVE. This is the only Way to Life. The Bible says, "God is Love." Jesus shows us the Way to love; but we must take action. We must be doers. Those who fail to do God's will shall die.
As Jesus said, "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but those who do His Father's will,"
Be a doer, not a hypocrite (Greek word for actor).
I don't disagree with any of this, but the question was of salvation. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn it. You can't add to it. There is nothing you can do to make up for your sins.
You don't have to do more good works than bad works.
You don't have to go to church everytime the door is open. You don't have to count beads. You don't have to be religious and you don't have to be good.
What must I do, asked the Philippian jailer, to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved=you and your household!
Paul also says, Thereforth my brothers, (speaking to the Jews) I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justifed from in the law of Moses.
The only way to heaven is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Some understand that there are two great divisions in the Law.
1) The Law that requires you to Love (both God and neighbor)
2) The Levitcal priestly sacrificial laws; ceremonies undertaken to receive forgiveness for breaking the Law listed in point 1
We can now have faith that the shed blood of Jesus covers our sin. We don't need to come continually to a Levitical priest to have him shed the blood of a lamb to pay the price of our most recent sin. Jesus' Sacrifice was a once for all Sacrifice to cover our continual slip-ups and mistakes. When we sin, if we confess our sins, we can have faith that God is just to forgive our sins. Jesus serves in the Levitical Priesthood role and has offered up His blood for us. We only need to have faith that God will apply Jesus' shed blood.
I want to remind you that both the Law (10 Commandments) and Sacrificial system (Levitical law) were complementary. We are still required to obey the Ten Commandments. The Sacrificial blood is for when we fall short of the mark.
Not only was the Sacrificial system replaced with a better system (yet, the same basic elements and requirements); but God said he would make a better way for us to fulfil the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Rather than being written merely on tables of stone, God promises to write the ten Commandments on the fleshy tablets of our hearts and minds; and we shall do them. He does this with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul said:
"Therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him, everyone who believes is justified, from everything you could not be justified from in the law of Moses."
This was a reference to the Sacrificial law (point 2). We are still required to obey the Law of Love (point 1).
You seem to have some other misunderstandings, misconceptions. The reward of the saved is not heaven, the meek shall inherit the earth. God is calling saints to be rulers and teachers on the earth, to give them a crown (position, rulership authority), not send them to heaven to strum on harps. Also, the jailer wanted to know what to do to be saved. Believing Jesus means carrying out and doing what he says. We already talked about how faith/belief is perfected by works and faith alone is dead/worthless/useless. To be saved means believing in Jesus to the point of carrying out what he instructs.

reply from: english

Age 10 upwards, tell the truth, I'm only 16 and I remember being able to unerstand. I would probably understood from about the age of about 5 but some kids at that age would be upset.
Before that, say something like when women don't want the baby, the get it taken out of them and it dies.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

Jesus said, "The world hates me because I keep telling it that its ways are evil." Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more." To a man that was healed of his paralysis Jesus said, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Sin is the transgression of God's Law. The Law is meant to regulate personal relationships. We are required to love God and love our neighbor, the entirety of the Bible is based on these two principles. For example, stealing from your neighbor leads to conflict, war and death. Disobeying the Law leads to conflict, war and death. Life is not possible without obeying the law. Sinning leads to bad consequences, up to and including death. Sin means we are not dealing correctly with our relationships (with God and man). This causes adversarial conflicts, the resolution usually being death and destruction, sin is on the path to death.
Why did Jesus say to the healed man, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you"? Because Jesus knows sin leads to bad things happening, a natural function we observe all the time when a wronged party seeks retribution or a physical ailment results from disregarding the consequences of excessive behaviors.
Sin leads to death, always, always, always. Forgiveness of past sins does not mean a person is immune from death , war and conflict with their brother when they continue to practice sin. Jesus made it clear, anyone continuing to practice sin, who therefore hates his brother, will not inherit eternal life. One MUST obey the Law to LOVE. This is the only Way to Life. The Bible says, "God is Love." Jesus shows us the Way to love; but we must take action. We must be doers. Those who fail to do God's will shall die.
As Jesus said, "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but those who do His Father's will,"
Be a doer, not a hypocrite (Greek word for actor).
I don't disagree with any of this, but the question was of salvation. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn it. You can't add to it. There is nothing you can do to make up for your sins.
You don't have to do more good works than bad works.
You don't have to go to church everytime the door is open. You don't have to count beads. You don't have to be religious and you don't have to be good.
What must I do, asked the Philippian jailer, to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved=you and your household!
Paul also says, Thereforth my brothers, (speaking to the Jews) I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justifed from in the law of Moses.
The only way to heaven is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Some understand that there are two great divisions in the Law.
1) The Law that requires you to Love (both God and neighbor)
2) The Levitcal priestly sacrificial laws; ceremonies undertaken to receive forgiveness for breaking the Law listed in point 1
We can now have faith that the shed blood of Jesus covers our sin. We don't need to come continually to a Levitical priest to have him shed the blood of a lamb to pay the price of our most recent sin. Jesus' Sacrifice was a once for all Sacrifice to cover our continual slip-ups and mistakes. When we sin, if we confess our sins, we can have faith that God is just to forgive our sins. Jesus serves in the Levitical Priesthood role and has offered up His blood for us. We only need to have faith that God will apply Jesus' shed blood.
I want to remind you that both the Law (10 Commandments) and Sacrificial system (Levitical law) were complementary. We are still required to obey the Ten Commandments. The Sacrificial blood is for when we fall short of the mark.
Not only was the Sacrificial system replaced with a better system (yet, the same basic elements and requirements); but God said he would make a better way for us to fulfil the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Rather than being written merely on tables of stone, God promises to write the ten Commandments on the fleshy tablets of our hearts and minds; and we shall do them. He does this with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul said:
"Therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him, everyone who believes is justified, from everything you could not be justified from in the law of Moses."
This was a reference to the Sacrificial law (point 2). We are still required to obey the Law of Love (point 1).
You seem to have some other misunderstandings, misconceptions. The reward of the saved is not heaven, the meek shall inherit the earth. God is calling saints to be rulers and teachers on the earth, to give them a crown (position, rulership authority), not send them to heaven to strum on harps. Also, the jailer wanted to know what to do to be saved. Believing Jesus means carrying out and doing what he says. We already talked about how faith/belief is perfected by works and faith alone is dead/worthless/useless. To be saved means believing in Jesus to the point of carrying out what he instructs.
You are antinomian (against the Law, against Love) carolmarie. You are an enemy to Christ.

reply from: carolemarie

Jesus said, "The world hates me because I keep telling it that its ways are evil." Jesus told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more." To a man that was healed of his paralysis Jesus said, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
Sin is the transgression of God's Law. The Law is meant to regulate personal relationships. We are required to love God and love our neighbor, the entirety of the Bible is based on these two principles. For example, stealing from your neighbor leads to conflict, war and death. Disobeying the Law leads to conflict, war and death. Life is not possible without obeying the law. Sinning leads to bad consequences, up to and including death. Sin means we are not dealing correctly with our relationships (with God and man). This causes adversarial conflicts, the resolution usually being death and destruction, sin is on the path to death.
Why did Jesus say to the healed man, "Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you"? Because Jesus knows sin leads to bad things happening, a natural function we observe all the time when a wronged party seeks retribution or a physical ailment results from disregarding the consequences of excessive behaviors.
Sin leads to death, always, always, always. Forgiveness of past sins does not mean a person is immune from death , war and conflict with their brother when they continue to practice sin. Jesus made it clear, anyone continuing to practice sin, who therefore hates his brother, will not inherit eternal life. One MUST obey the Law to LOVE. This is the only Way to Life. The Bible says, "God is Love." Jesus shows us the Way to love; but we must take action. We must be doers. Those who fail to do God's will shall die.
As Jesus said, "Not every one who says Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom, but those who do His Father's will,"
Be a doer, not a hypocrite (Greek word for actor).
I don't disagree with any of this, but the question was of salvation. Salvation is a gift. You don't earn it. You can't add to it. There is nothing you can do to make up for your sins.
You don't have to do more good works than bad works.
You don't have to go to church everytime the door is open. You don't have to count beads. You don't have to be religious and you don't have to be good.
What must I do, asked the Philippian jailer, to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved=you and your household!
Paul also says, Thereforth my brothers, (speaking to the Jews) I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through Him, everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justifed from in the law of Moses.
The only way to heaven is a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Some understand that there are two great divisions in the Law.
1) The Law that requires you to Love (both God and neighbor)
2) The Levitcal priestly sacrificial laws; ceremonies undertaken to receive forgiveness for breaking the Law listed in point 1
We can now have faith that the shed blood of Jesus covers our sin. We don't need to come continually to a Levitical priest to have him shed the blood of a lamb to pay the price of our most recent sin. Jesus' Sacrifice was a once for all Sacrifice to cover our continual slip-ups and mistakes. When we sin, if we confess our sins, we can have faith that God is just to forgive our sins. Jesus serves in the Levitical Priesthood role and has offered up His blood for us. We only need to have faith that God will apply Jesus' shed blood.
I want to remind you that both the Law (10 Commandments) and Sacrificial system (Levitical law) were complementary. We are still required to obey the Ten Commandments. The Sacrificial blood is for when we fall short of the mark.
Not only was the Sacrificial system replaced with a better system (yet, the same basic elements and requirements); but God said he would make a better way for us to fulfil the requirements of the Ten Commandments. Rather than being written merely on tables of stone, God promises to write the ten Commandments on the fleshy tablets of our hearts and minds; and we shall do them. He does this with the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul said:
"Therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him, everyone who believes is justified, from everything you could not be justified from in the law of Moses."
This was a reference to the Sacrificial law (point 2). We are still required to obey the Law of Love (point 1).
You seem to have some other misunderstandings, misconceptions. The reward of the saved is not heaven, the meek shall inherit the earth. God is calling saints to be rulers and teachers on the earth, to give them a crown (position, rulership authority), not send them to heaven to strum on harps. Also, the jailer wanted to know what to do to be saved. Believing Jesus means carrying out and doing what he says. We already talked about how faith/belief is perfected by works and faith alone is dead/worthless/useless. To be saved means believing in Jesus to the point of carrying out what he instructs.
You are antinomian (against the Law, against Love) carolmarie. You are an enemy to Christ.[/q
Basic theology 101 posted below for you. This makes me Christ's enemy?
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin.
We were born under the power of sin's control.
- Admit that you are a sinner.

Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.
- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.

Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't
earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.
- Ask God to forgive you and save you.

Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in
that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!
- Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, or church membership. God loves you!

Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!" - Call out to God in the name of Jesus!

Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
- If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door,
ask Him to come into your heart.

Jesus said,
Revelation 3:20a "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."
Salvation is a free gift. You don't deserve it, you can't earn it. Praise God for His kindness to wicked people!
If you believe something else, you are wrong.

reply from: galen

jesus mary and st joseph... why don't you all just print the bible again and have done with it....

reply from: carolemarie

LOL....
Okay I will quit...

reply from: galen

at this point i think you've earned an honorary doctorate....

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

LOL....
Okay I will quit...
Did you examine the verses I quoted?
Concerned parent, you do understand more about the Bible than the vast majority who claim they are Christians. Carolmarie gives only half a loaf. She doesn't understand what you mean by actually doing, acting righteously, obeying commandments. She's been trained by false ministers, she can't think for herself; she parrots back what they've told her. You show a great amount of understanding in what Christ and God are trying to accomplish. Carolmarie and other so-called Christians are clueless. That is why a survey a couple years ago found Evangelical Christians divorced at a rate slightly higher than the national average; they engage in sin as much or more than the average population!
I'm sure Carolmarie is ready to throw in the towel and not think about the "confusing" Scriptures you have cited that seem to clash with her already preconceived notions.

reply from: leftistdestroyer

You tell them, at any age, that abortions is when mommy and daddy decide it is best, to have the little baby torn to pieces, rather than be born. No need to sugar coat it. And perhaps that kid will grow up knowing full well of the horrors of abortion, and take the neccessary personal steps, to never ever be in that situation.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?

reply from: Faramir

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....

reply from: faithman

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....
If I killed three of my children, I guess I would have a problem telling the rest of them about it. Of course you could gussy it up with all the pro-death rhetoric you used on this forum. "Honey momy made three little youthful mistakes, so there aren't quite as many children in the house for you to play with. How about a piece of chocolate and a cup of tea?"

reply from: Faramir

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....
If I killed three of my children, I guess I would have a problem telling the rest of them about it. Of course you could gussy it up with all the pro-death rhetoric you used on this forum. "Honey momy made three little youthful mistakes, so there aren't quite as many children in the house for you to play with. How about a piece of chocolate and a cup of tea?"
Yoda is just looking for a way to browbeat her. You do it openly. He does it in sneaky ways. I give you credit for at least being abusive openly.
But the bottom line is that she owes her children or anyone else NO EXPLAINATION. And she owes no explaination to yodavater or me or you as to however she wants to handle a sitution with her own children, even if we don't like it.
And yes, I do know that she has had abortions. She has admitted to that many times, and you have reminded us about a million times.
It's really old news by now.

reply from: yoda

It seems to me that it ought to be fairly easy to answer a question about whether it's better to be honest with one's own children. I just don't see the problem, I guess.

reply from: faithman

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....
If I killed three of my children, I guess I would have a problem telling the rest of them about it. Of course you could gussy it up with all the pro-death rhetoric you used on this forum. "Honey momy made three little youthful mistakes, so there aren't quite as many children in the house for you to play with. How about a piece of chocolate and a cup of tea?"
Yoda is just looking for a way to browbeat her. You do it openly. He does it in sneaky ways. I give you credit for at least being abusive openly.
But the bottom line is that she owes her children or anyone else NO EXPLAINATION. And she owes no explaination to yodavater or me or you as to however she wants to handle a sitution with her own children, even if we don't like it.
And yes, I do know that she has had abortions. She has admitted to that many times, and you have reminded us about a million times.
It's really old news by now.
But what you seem to miss is the fact that no one would have known she murdered three of her own if she had kept her baby killing mouth shut. The worst part is all the pro-death rhetoric, and perverted christianity that she has used to excuse herself. And what your stupid little butt refuses to understand is this issue is about the womb child, not the heartless killers who slaughter them, and then want to make a cottage industry out of it to boot. What is really old news is your continued defence of killers while ignoring those they killed. Just what do you have to say on behalf of those she has killed, and has trampled their memory under her self justified baby killing feet? HHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMM?

reply from: galen

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....
If I killed three of my children, I guess I would have a problem telling the rest of them about it. Of course you could gussy it up with all the pro-death rhetoric you used on this forum. "Honey momy made three little youthful mistakes, so there aren't quite as many children in the house for you to play with. How about a piece of chocolate and a cup of tea?"
-------------------------------------------
gees FM did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning?

reply from: yoda

Nah, he just loves to jump on me for anything I say, no matter what it is. It wouldn't matter if I recited the Gettysburg address, he'd attribute some ulterior motive to me that he dreamed up, just so he could slam me again. That's why I had to put him on ignore, he's consistently and constantly negative about his "impressions" of my motives, kind of like some soap opera plot. So pay no attention to the guy, he just loves to attack, attack, attack.
It's passing strange to me that neither he nor her is willing to answer a totally simple question about whether honesty is the best policy or not. Of course, honesty does not require that one actually answer a question, one can take the fifth amendment and still remain honest..... it just requires that you don't tell a lie.
Now, what on earth is so complicated, "sneaky", or tricky about that?

reply from: yoda

How about Fartnomore?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?

reply from: faithman

Yeah, that's pretty much WHAT I SAID........ so we're in agreement there.
But how about answering my question: Isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?
What about just not anwering a question?
Even if repeated over and over and over....
If I killed three of my children, I guess I would have a problem telling the rest of them about it. Of course you could gussy it up with all the pro-death rhetoric you used on this forum. "Honey momy made three little youthful mistakes, so there aren't quite as many children in the house for you to play with. How about a piece of chocolate and a cup of tea?"
-------------------------------------------
gees FM did someone pee in your cornflakes this morning?
I don't eat corn flakes.

reply from: yoda

Okay, but isn't it better to be honest with your child and say you don't want to talk about that, than to outright lie to him/her?

reply from: galen

How about Fartnomore?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?
-------------------------------------
yep ... he is not abusing anyone else though... at least not at this moment.. FM is being a bit high end on this and a few others IMHO.. of course he's been away so much lately maybe my fm SKIN IS A BIT THINNER THAN IT USED TO BE.

reply from: galen

AHHH SO YOU SKIPPED BREAKFAST... BLOOD SUGAR GETTING A LITTLE LOW?

reply from: yoda

Ah, so I'm not "anyone"....... okay, gotcha!

reply from: faithman

Didn't skip anything. Just don't eat corn flakes. Blood sugar is fine, but thanks for asking.

reply from: faithman

How about Fartnomore?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?
-------------------------------------
yep ... he is not abusing anyone else though... at least not at this moment.. FM is being a bit high end on this and a few others IMHO.. of course he's been away so much lately maybe my fm SKIN IS A BIT THINNER THAN IT USED TO BE.
I will be glad to toughen you up again.

reply from: galen

Ah, so I'm not "anyone"....... okay, gotcha!
-------------------------------
i don't see him abusing you... being sarcastic maybe but a far cry from abuse.

reply from: galen

How about Fartnomore?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?
-------------------------------------
yep ... he is not abusing anyone else though... at least not at this moment.. FM is being a bit high end on this and a few others IMHO.. of course he's been away so much lately maybe my fm skin is a bit thinner than it used to be.
I will be glad to toughen you up again.
----------------------------
he he he bring it on... it will get my creative juices flowing....

reply from: faithman

How about Fartnomore?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?
-------------------------------------
yep ... he is not abusing anyone else though... at least not at this moment.. FM is being a bit high end on this and a few others IMHO.. of course he's been away so much lately maybe my fm skin is a bit thinner than it used to be.
I will be glad to toughen you up again.
----------------------------
he he he bring it on... it will get my creative juices flowing....
Happy to be of service.

reply from: Faramir

How about Faramir?
He seemed rather upset over absolutely nothing, don't you think?
I wasn't the slightest bit upset. I calmly made an observation. And note that I have decreased my yodavater criticism by 90%, though it would be hard to notice if you had me on ignore most of the time.
And I can assure you that if you recite the Gettysburg Address, that I will in no way criticize the post, unless you add "bump" at the end.

reply from: faithman

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
bump

reply from: carolemarie

If you say "i don't want to talk about that, the child will assume the answer is yes.
There really is such a thing as to much information!
I would probably opt to lie. I know I will deny drug use or sleeping around because these things are not what I want him to do. I have no intention of sharing my before Christ days with my son.

reply from: galen

CM i have to say that you had very suspicious children... when i say 'i don't want to talk about it '... my 2 accept it at face value.

reply from: Faramir

I don't know if lying is the best thing in this case, but it's clearly a case where the questioner is not entitled to an answer, and when the "liar" is not making a false statemen with the intent to deceive for any malicious reason.
I'm not going ot harangue her for how she deals with her own children. That's her own business.

reply from: faithman

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
bump

reply from: carolemarie

LOL....
Okay I will quit...
Did you examine the verses I quoted?
Yes I did. But the verses are talking about two things. Salvation and santification.
Salvation is a free gift from God to us. We have to accept it, (believe that Jesus Christ was fully god and fully man, that He lived a sinless life and suffered died and was buried for our sins. That He rose on the third day and will come back to judge the living and the dead. And that all who believe in Him will have eternal life. If you confess your sins and ask God to fogive you He will. You are clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ.
That is salvation.
Santification comes after you ask Jesus into your heart. Then the Holy Spirit of God comes to you and helps guide you in obeying the commands and laws of God. The Spirit enables you to do what is right. The bondage to sin is broken and you can resist sin. But you will still fail. But when we fail, we can confess our sin and He is faithful and just to forgive us. And since we love Jesus and have fellowship with Him, we try not to sin because we want to please Him. It isn't about works, its about the relationship. Even the two commandments quoted
Love God with your whole, heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself are relationship based. Our relationship with God and our relationship with fellow man. It isn't rules or regulations, it is through a relationship of love that we are conformed into the image of Christ. And that relatioinship produces fruit, or works that show our love.

reply from: carolemarie

LOL--perhaps I am a bit paranoid....

reply from: galen

maybe just a bit... you have a right to some paranoia... especially with your openess on the net...however, possibly just be open about it.
I was open with my son about his conception... ( rape) he now uses it in his favour in all sorts of discussions on abortion and fairness and bigotry etc.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't know....hopefully he will never ask.
I love him very much and would do anything for him. He is adorable and so sweet! He got saved last year at VBS (vacation bible school). I am so proud of him.

reply from: faithman

I don't know....hopefully he will never ask.
I love him very much and would do anything for him. He is adorable and so sweet! He got saved last year at VBS (vacation bible school). I am so proud of him.
To bad three of his syblings will never get the chance to go to VBS.

reply from: carolemarie

What was the point of posting that?

reply from: yoda

I'm really sorry to see you say that. I don't think my child would've made such an assumption, especially if I said that I'd simply rather wait until she is older before discussing such things. But clearly I can't predict what anyone else's child would assume, so at least now I understand your reasons. Thank you for your response.

reply from: jujujellybean

I don't know....hopefully he will never ask.
I love him very much and would do anything for him. He is adorable and so sweet! He got saved last year at VBS (vacation bible school). I am so proud of him.
To bad three of his syblings will never get the chance to go to VBS.
would you get over it already? is your life making hers miserable? move on man!

reply from: yoda

Is Fartnomore at it again? Oh, my.........

reply from: faithman

I'm really sorry to see you say that. I don't think my child would've made such an assumption, especially if I said that I'd simply rather wait until she is older before discussing such things. But clearly I can't predict what anyone else's child would assume, so at least now I understand your reasons. Thank you for your response.
And lying to children is such a christian concept!!!! I guess if those you "minister" to are better serve with a lie, you are all good with that as well? What a pile of self serving crap. You killed three, and don't want to have to answere to the rest of them because it makes you "uncomfortable". You killed 3 now you slaughter the truth because it might inconveniance you a little. This further proves you to be a phony. The only thing you care about, whether in dealing with children, or your so called ministry, is yourself.


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