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Is a Woman that has Aborted Always Tainted?

Even if she becomes pro-life afterwards?

by: MotherForLife

I'm interested to see how pro-lifers view a woman who has had an abortion but then regrets it and/or becomes pro-life. Do you respect them as much as a woman who has never had an abortion?
Or is such a woman always tainted in your opinion because she has murdered her child?

reply from: cracrat

SHE IS EVIL. SHE MUST DIE AS HORRIBLE DEATH AS HER CHILD. SHE MUST SUFFER SO SHE TRUELY KNOWS WHAT SHE HAS DONE. SHE IS NOT HUMAN. SHE IS BELOW THE WORMS AND BEETLES THAT GRUB IN THE DIRT. SHE MUST NOT BE TOLERATED LEST SHE POLLUTE US WITH HER MESSAGE OF COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING. etc. etc.
Some people here are reasonable enough to accept their contrition and be grateful for the contributions they will make. Others are not so reasonable.

reply from: DanielCordell

King David was also guilty of murder. (In a very similiar fashion to abortion) It started with lust and adultery and resulted in unwed pregnancy and murder. The Church has always respected him - due to his repentance. I think if he had never repented (when confronted with this sin), he would be a completely different historical figure.
He wasn't "always tainted" in my opinion. Nor should a woman guilty of murdering her child be, if she repents.
...just some thoughts

reply from: xnavy

i agree with danielcordell

reply from: sander

It takes true repentance to recieve true forgiveness.
If God has forgiven her and will not hold this against her, neither should anyone else.

reply from: joe

If she supports personhood (in the fullest sense of the word) for the unborn, she is a valuable asset to the pro-life movement.
If she cares more about the women who aborted instead of the murdered unborn children, she is counterproductive to the protection of those victims.

reply from: nancyu

If she supports personhood (in the fullest sense of the word) for the unborn, she is a valuable asset to the pro-life movement.
If she cares more about the women who aborted instead of the murdered unborn children, she is counterproductive to the protection of those victims.
And as long as she doesn't hand out "goody bags" to post abortive women.

reply from: nancyu

This is so true!
And then there are those who are rabid pro aborts, but in public pretend to break down emotionally to avoid the judgment of others.

reply from: nancyu

This is so true!
And then there are those who are rabid pro aborts, but in public pretend to break down emotionally to avoid the judgment of others.
And you figure you are qualified to determine who is sincere and who is not, regardless of their stated position? Your criteria on this forum seems to be whether you personally like the individual, and you accuse those you don't like of being insincere....
We all make judgments of people based upon their words and actions. Just like you are judging me right now.

reply from: joe

Concernedparent, you "seem" to be a dumbass, just my observation.

reply from: sander

Usually you make sense, even if I have a problem with your presentations, at times.
Why would even want to pick apart what I said?
I'm talking from my own personal, closley held beliefs.
I know I can't KNOW 100%, but if someone tells me they have repented and I would not hold their sin against them, that IS giving them the benefit of the doubt.
So, bottom line, we give them the benefit of the doubt, until proven otherwise.
Gee, where did I just read that.

reply from: sander

Oh, okay...sorry, it just didn't read that way to me.

reply from: teddybearhamster

i honestly feel sorry for a lot of women who have killed their babies. they are either too ignorant to know what they have really done or their hearts are too damaged. some of them learn later on what they did and it hurts them to the core. i feel bad for them, but i don't excuse it.

reply from: gingerkid

If they truly mean their regret, I can't hold it against them. The only case that would make me change my mind if they speak up for abortion rights, or even worse, if they proceed to have another abortion despite their laments about their mistake, I would probably lose respect altogether. I may not be the nicest, prettiest person in the world, but when I say something I mean it and I stand by my word.

reply from: Faramir

I couldn't call a woman who aborted a "murderer" unless I was compeletly convinced she knew 100% that an abortion kills a person, and that she made the decision without any pressure, and was of a sound mind when she went through with the abortion.
From a Christian perspective, every woman (and man) is tainted except the BVM.

reply from: Banned Member

If she didn't know that not having an abortion would cause her to have a child, than why would she abort to begin with? The act itself barring any concrete evidence to the contrary signifies complete knowledge as to what abortion accomplishes. Abortion is murder.

reply from: Faramir

For the same reason that people use contraception.
Even if we make up a new definition and call abortion murder, it doesn't mean that the woman who aborts is necessarily a murderer.
Abortion is always objectively evil, but you cannot say that the aborter is acting with evil intentions.
BTW, if you like Fr. Corapi, as I do too, he also called abortion "murder" but he quickly followed up saying that the women who abort are not murderers, because they often don't realize what they are doing. I will get the exact quote if you like, since I have this program on my TiVo.

reply from: Banned Member

1.5 million abortions. They are had by women. They are sought by women. They are paid for by women. The choice to abort or not is made by a woman. Abortion is murder. Those who choose to murder, are murderers. That does not mean that a woman cannot be forgiven or repent. But nothing changes the nature of the offense.

reply from: galen

-----------------------------------
I respect everyone who has had an abortion... to a point. for the woman who later becomes prolife good for her... for those who continually commit the same crime... well lets just say i keep argueing with them.

reply from: Banned Member

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."

reply from: Faramir

So you quote and praise Fr. Corapi only when it suits you?
BTW, you are taking even more liberties with the word murder, since intent must be demonstrated. Did you read those quotes from Project Rachel? Those women didn't know they were killing their children.
I don't know if you are obtuse or just don't get it.
I have said a million times that abortion is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like using a condom is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like masturbation is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like having two wives is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
But...you and I both know that we cannot say that those who have done these things did so with evil intent or understood that they were doing evil. That's why we could not say with any certainty that ANY of these acts done by any particular person was definately a MORTAL SIN, even though for you and I it would most likely be, since we know the law.

reply from: Banned Member

The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense,"
Only the Pope has infallible authority on matter of faith and morals.

reply from: galen

So you quote and praise Fr. Corapi only when it suits you?
BTW, you are taking even more liberties with the word murder, since intent must be demonstrated. Did you read those quotes from Project Rachel? Those women didn't know they were killing their children.
I don't know if you are obtuse or just don't get it.
I have said a million times that abortion is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like using a condom is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like masturbation is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like having two wives is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
But...you and I both know that we cannot say that those who have done these things did so with evil intent or understood that they were doing evil. That's why we could not say with any certainty that ANY of these acts done by any particular person was definately a MORTAL SIN, even though for you and I it would most likely be, since we know the law.
------------------------------
Just like you seem to be interpreting church doctrine... only when it suits you....
or maybe you just don't understand what the vatican is saying...?

reply from: Banned Member

I have said a million times that abortion is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like using a condom is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like masturbation is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Just like having two wives is ALWAYS OBJECTIVELY EVIL.
Only one of these four objectively evil offenses is onjectively MURDER. Only one of these objectively evil offenses has the canonical penalty of excommunication attached to it.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense,"
Tell me what the Church means by the above statement. Does the Church make errors?

reply from: galen

and BTW faramir... the church comforts those who commit murder but NEVER have they said they should not pay for thier crimes... give unto cesar and all.....

reply from: Faramir

You have seen the words of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul who have been very understanding and compassionat to women who abort.
Any mortal sin causes an excommunication.
If the woman who aborts is canonically excommunicated, it still does not change that she might not have committed a mortal sin or that she fully understood that she did wrong, and regarding excommunication and abortion, please carefully read the following:
">http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/abortio2.htm[/q

reply from: MotherForLife

This is interesting, thank you for the replies!
A friend of mine is Catholic and she recently had her second abortion. She told me that she knew she was killing a baby and that she'd go to Hell but that she didn't want a baby because she 'didn't want to get fat' and she wanted to return to glamour modelling. The weird thing is, she came off the pill to try to get pregnant but when she did it was like reality hit her and she backtracked.
She asked me if I thought God would ever forgive her and I said I don't believe in God so I didn't know. I wonder how she reconciles her religion to the fact she had two abortions?

reply from: nancyu

The attitudes which are so quick to forgive abortion are WRONG. These attitudes do grave harm to any movement toward achieving personhood for the unborn.
NO ONE KNOWS if GOD will forgive. OUR JOB IS NEITHER TO CONDEMN NOR TO FORGIVE. OUR JOB IS TO TELL THE TRUTH. Abortion is murder of an innocent child. A PERSON.
Handing out goody bags to post abortive women is JUDGEMENT that is not carolemarie's or anyone's to make. You don't know what is in their hearts. You may help a few, but you are sending the WRONG MESSAGE TO MANY.
Carolemarie: I understand that you believe that you have been saved. I fear that you may have instead been deceived. You are helping the wrong team, honey.

reply from: nancyu

Welcome motherforlife (which would have been nice to say BEFORE I started my speech, I suppose) Sorry, I don't have the best of manners.

reply from: carolemarie

How would either of you know what works? Yoda doesn't talk to the women and Nancy doesn't go to the clinic.
THis works, and FYI, other groups are doing it as well now. Because it works.
How come it is okay to post their picture on your website, but wrong to reach out with the gospel message?
Bottom line is that you don't like or care about women who have abortions and don't want them to get help. If you did, you would have no problem with passing out bags with the bible, post abortion help and salvation lit.

reply from: nancyu

You're right! I only care about stopping abortion! I don't care about women, or their souls. I don't care about ANYTHING but saving unborn children from the knife. THAT is my priority. And if you don't like that -- it is just tough titties to you. Pray for my soul all you want. There are some things even more important than my soul. Like thousands of lost souls who are dying today, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO REWARD THEM AND COMFORT AFTER THEY MURDER THEIR OWN CHILDREN!

reply from: carolemarie

You're right! I only care about stopping abortion! I don't care about women, or their souls. I don't care about ANYTHING but saving unborn children from the knife. THAT is my priority. And if you don't like that -- it is just tough titties to you. Pray for my soul all you want. There are some things even more important than my soul. Like thousands of lost souls who are dying today, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO REWARD THEM AND COMFORT AFTER THEY MURDER THEIR OWN CHILDREN!
Then you are in direct conflict with God himself.

reply from: carolemarie

Nancy,
Then you are in direct conflict with God himself.
Read the Bible you are quoting.

reply from: Banned Member

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication
Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness). Thus a woman forced by an abusive husband to have an abortion would not incur an excommunication, for instance, whereas someone culpably under the influence of drugs or alcohol would
You posted the canon law, did you actually read it?
The actual instances where a woman does not know that abortion is murder is, and could only be reasoned as being negligable.

reply from: nancyu

I can't find mine, could you mail me one? And don't forget the tea and chocolate.
(The quotes are from the IAAP cards.)

reply from: Faramir

I think you didn't read it carefully.
And you have changed the subject.
ANY WOMAN WHO DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THE EXOMMUNICATION PENALITY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN EXCOMMUNITCATED.
Did you miss that?
If you are trying to make a case that excommunication means that it is also a murder, there are PLENTY of instnances, probably most, when the woman does not know about the excommunication penalty.
But we are referring to Catholics who SHOULD know better and none of them should be fornicating, using contraception, or aborting.
But those outside the Church have some excuses, and certainly NONE of them are excommunicated.

reply from: Faramir

Agreed.
Instead--take pictures of them and post them on a website.
Then the postabortive women will feel the "love" in this approach and be converted.
(Since you are new here, churchmouse, that is the yodavater approach. He stands outside a clinic with his camera and then posts photos of the women on his website).

reply from: yoda

Works how? Works to do what? They've already killed their baby, so what "works" are you talking about?
Damned if I know. WHO SAID THAT IT WAS WRONG TO "REACH OUT WITH THE GOSPEL MESSAGE"?
Is a box of chocolates your idea of the "gospel message"? Is that what the gospel means to you?

reply from: Faramir

Works how? Works to do what? They've already killed their baby, so what "works" are you talking about?
Damned if I know. WHO SAID THAT IT WAS WRONG TO "REACH OUT WITH THE GOSPEL MESSAGE"?
Is a box of chocolates your idea of the "gospel message"? Is that what the gospel means to you?
This is quite a distortion of the intent and what actually happens.
They don't give out a box of chocolates, and tracts and a bible are included in the package.
What is missing in this poster is the acknowledgement that the pregnant woman, even if she aborts, is also a person.

reply from: carolemarie

Works to reach someone for the Lord. (And the benefit of that is that they change their position on abortion)
Everyone who has been commenting! We can't apparently pass out candy, but bread is okay and we cant give tea, but water is okay....
Nancy feels we can't even hug them if they are crying, apparently there is a 24 hour waiting period......

reply from: sander

Now don't fib. Not everyone who has been commenting says you should withhold the Gospel message, in fact I don't think anyone has.
And if for some reason the abortive woman wouldn't understand the bread and water signfigance, then withhold that too.
Listen, everyone here has the right to express their opinions. And nothing about that can stop you from doing what you are doing, and it shouldn't.
This is a public message board concerning the prolife position, you will get comments for and against anything that you or anyone else posts.
I think we just need to learn to live with that fact.
And all the while, somehow, some way try and remember the baby is the real victim and the one who has paid with his or her life for the views of the mother.

reply from: carolemarie

Now don't fib. Not everyone who has been commenting says you should withhold the Gospel message, in fact I don't think anyone has.
And if for some reason the abortive woman wouldn't understand the bread and water signfigance, then withhold that too.
Listen, everyone here has the right to express their opinions. And nothing about that can stop you from doing what you are doing, and it shouldn't.
This is a public message board concerning the prolife position, you will get comments for and against anything that you or anyone else posts.
I think we just need to learn to live with that fact.
And all the while, somehow, some way try and remember the baby is the real victim and the one who has paid with his or her life for the views of the mother.
The truth is you can't really find anything wrong with the outreach and you know it. That is why you all harp on candy and a mug! But are okay with water and bread! Please!
And since I go to the clinic to talk the women out of killing their child, it should be obvious to you that I do care very much about that baby and I don't want to see it killed.
I care about everyone who finds themself at the clinic! They all matter equally to God, the baby, the women, the staff and the dr. And they all matter to me.

reply from: jujujellybean

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.

reply from: sander

Now don't fib. Not everyone who has been commenting says you should withhold the Gospel message, in fact I don't think anyone has.
And if for some reason the abortive woman wouldn't understand the bread and water signfigance, then withhold that too.
Listen, everyone here has the right to express their opinions. And nothing about that can stop you from doing what you are doing, and it shouldn't.
This is a public message board concerning the prolife position, you will get comments for and against anything that you or anyone else posts.
I think we just need to learn to live with that fact.
And all the while, somehow, some way try and remember the baby is the real victim and the one who has paid with his or her life for the views of the mother.
Now, you too can look inside the minds and hearts of others? Can you at least stay consistent? Don't you "harp" on not doing such things? Make up your mind.
I would be saying the same thing if you gave them gift cards to wal-mart instead of candy and mugs, it's the mixed message that I have a problem with, not the candy and mugs. But, you know that...oh wait, I'm not suppose to do what you do, just what you say...sorry.
And how about addressing the fib you told?
I know you care very much about the baby, just wish you cared more about the one actually doing the dieing then the ones doing the murdering.

reply from: joe

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
This is a battle of words and truth. We cannot dehumanize the unborn...ever.

reply from: Faramir

It's not either/or.
She is out there trying to save lives and is succeeding sometimes.
But then she also reaches out to those women who have aborted anyway.
That doesn't mean she cares "more" and it's none of your business what her level of "caring" is, especially since she cares enough to be out there helping BOTH the baby and the mother.
This is nitpicking and finding excuses to pick someone apart who is doing GOOD.

reply from: gingerkid

Carolemarie, I just have to ask a question. With your outreach program, do you bring religion into it? Because a large percentage of women who get abortions aren't Christian as far as I know. Just wondering.

reply from: joe

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
This is a battle of words and truth. We cannot dehumanize the unborn...ever.
One need not hate the mother to recognize and acknowledge the humanity of the child.
We treat no other murderer like this, the message is mixed and does dehumanize the unborn in the eyes of the lost.

reply from: nancyu

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
This is a battle of words and truth. We cannot dehumanize the unborn...ever.
One need not hate the mother to recognize and acknowledge the humanity of the child.
We treat no other murderer like this, the message is mixed and does dehumanize the unborn in the eyes of the lost.
There are many ways of dehumanizing the unborn, and we need to be watchful of these, and not let them slide by. This is what we all have been guilty of in the past, and we can't let it happen again.

reply from: nancyu

There is no hate involved in demanding personhood for the unborn. We're very sensitive to anything that attempts to undermine it, and we won't let it get by. So CMs and CPs of the world, you might as well slither away with your ideas of rewarding women and not punishing them. These ideas are erroneous, you must know this. Are you trying to fool us? or are you truly fooling yourselves?

reply from: carolemarie

The post-abortion healing program we teach is bible based. I only know what worked for me and that is what I share. I tried other things that didn't work...like TM ,Silva Mind Control and counseling. None of it could fix the pain and hurt. Only a relationship with God could do that. Cause He is the only one who can undo what you have done.
The outreach program is different. It is kind of like an open door, you can choose to walk through it and find help or not. God can give you what you desire more than anything else, He alone can make all tings new, He alone can restore your childs broken body and He alone can set true joy in your heart.
Your right that lots of women are not Christians who get abortions. I wasn't either. But when all the things you have believed in turn out to be a lie, God is still there.
I hope and pray they will become Christians, several have .

reply from: Faramir

This is pretty much how I see posters like sander, yodavater, augustine, and nancyu.
They are spouting the prolife rhetoric, but they also seem to be using their prolife beliefs as an excuse to get their licks in on the postabortive women.
And a couple of them will thump them with the bible as well.
It seems to me to be a very cruel sport, and not at all a good thing for getting outsiders to be sympathetic to the prolife cause.

reply from: nancyu

This is pretty much how I see posters like sander, yodavater, augustine, and nancyu.
They are spouting the prolife rhetoric, but they also seem to be using their prolife beliefs as an excuse to get their licks in on the postabortive women.
And a couple of them will thump them with the bible as well.
It seems to me to be a very cruel sport, and not at all a good thing for getting outsiders to be sympathetic to the prolife cause.
Then you are blind. Try taking that plank out of your eye.

reply from: yoda

Oh, excuse me, I thought you were here to share ways to stop abortion with us.... my mistake.
"Everyone"???? Here's a suggestion: Make your objections known by posting a reply to A PARTICULAR POST which contains the "comments" you are objecting to, rather than making a GENERALIZATION later on..... and expecting us to know what you're talking about. Like sander says, I don't recall ANYONE saying that you shouldn't "reach out with the gospel message"... but then I do have several folks on iggy... so maybe it was a proabort, or one of your buddies?

reply from: yoda

The truth is that you are making wild generalizations, and not backing them up with anything specific. WHO said you should not "reach out with the gospel message"?

reply from: yoda

We've got to accept whatever help we can get, from whoever gives it. But that doesn't mean we have to accept everyone as a "valuable asset to the pro-life movement."
To me, it is a contradiction in terms to say you are an "anti-personhood prolifer". I simply cannot fathom how those two things could exist in one mind.

reply from: carolemarie

Reaching women who had abortions and helping them change their minds IS a way to end abortion.
They don't get a second or third abortion. They help other women choose life.

reply from: carolemarie

The gospel message IS IN THE GIFT BAG

reply from: sander

The gospel message IS IN THE GIFT BAG
Are you having problems with reading comprehension?
Yoda asked and so did I, "Who said you SHOULD NOT reach out with the Gospel?
And you got any statistics to back up your assertion these women dont' have second and third abortions?

reply from: yoda

You know, you don't need to go to an abortion clinic to reach those women, they're all around you. I thought the idea of going down to an abortion mill was to prevent at least a few abortions right there, right then? Am I wrong about that?
So WHEN did ANYONE specifically object to your giving out "gospel messages"? Did ANYONE suggest that you "leave that out" of your gift bag?
Or was it just the "chocolate and tea" that was the focus of the objections?

reply from: carolemarie

As you very well know, we do that FIRST and then after the abortion we reach out to them then.
There very well may be women who have had abortions around us, but usually we dont know that. I do know that these women have had abortions.
Yes the objection is to the fact that I don't just give them a bible that I am nice to them and give the a mug and some chocolates. Being kind to people is part of the gospel message. Being kind opens the door for healing and dialog. Being kind is what God does and what we do. They are weak and hurting now and now is the time to offer help.

reply from: Faramir

Oh, excuse me, I thought you were here to share ways to stop abortion with us.... my mistake.
Everyone who has been commenting! We can't apparently pass out candy, but bread is okay and we cant give tea, but water is okay....
More yoda bs, for some reason the quote is not working for this:
"Everyone"???? Here's a suggestion: Make your objections known by posting a reply to A PARTICULAR POST which contains the "comments" you are objecting to, rather than making a GENERALIZATION later on..... and expecting us to know what you're talking about. Like sander says, I don't recall ANYONE saying that you shouldn't "reach out with the gospel message"... but then I do have several folks on iggy... so maybe it was a proabort, or one of your buddies?
I wonder why this guy is so surly and grouchy all the time.
Anyway, carolemarie has been doing nothing but sharing ways to help stop abortion.
This is a man who appears to hate postabortive women, imho, and is looking for any excuse to lash out at them, as he is doing that here with carolemarie with his snide and underhanded remarks.
And some people are so blind they just can't see that in the context of the situation, that giving the chocolate and tea, along with the bible, tracts, etc., IS preaching the gospel. As St. Francis said, (using my own words), "Continually preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words."

reply from: Faramir

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
The bottom line is that she IS saving babies, and yet is mercilessly persecuted on this board.
And she does support personhood, except sees it as not practical at the moment, and an impediment to saving babies RIGHT NOW.
When you look past all the bluster and all the smoke, the bottom line is that there are some hateful people who are prolife. That is the sad reality I discovered on this board.

reply from: nancyu

The post-abortion healing program we teach is bible based. I only know what worked for me and that is what I share. I tried other things that didn't work...like TM ,Silva Mind Control and counseling. None of it could fix the pain and hurt. Only a relationship with God could do that. Cause He is the only one who can undo what you have done.
The outreach program is different. It is kind of like an open door, you can choose to walk through it and find help or not. God can give you what you desire more than anything else, He alone can make all tings new, He alone can restore your childs broken body and He alone can set true joy in your heart.
Your right that lots of women are not Christians who get abortions. I wasn't either. But when all the things you have believed in turn out to be a lie, God is still there.
I hope and pray they will become Christians, several have .
What about those who are Christian, and still abort? What about them carolemarie? Is it okay to abort if they are Christian? Does calling oneself a Christian make them perfect, like you are?
I am tired of your holier than thou attitude. You are a murderer of three. You reward women after they abort. You celebrate one life saved and ignore the nine who were slaughtered, while you tend to comforting the murdering mother. If you think this is what it means to be Christian, than you've got a lot to learn. I know many people who don't call themselves "Christian" who are a million times more Christ-like than you are.
You are either brainwashed into believing you are Christian, or you are LYING about being Christian. You are a liar and you are a murderer.

reply from: carolemarie

I feel Sander said it best. So here you go
Um, having a bad day?
You are one sour, bitter human being.
I'm not doing you any favors and posting any lists, you're nasty and can't even keep track of who you're talking to.
Buzz off and the next time you tell someone how righteous you are because of your walk with God the above will be proof enough you're full of it.
The post-abortion healing program we teach is bible based. I only know what worked for me and that is what I share. I tried other things that didn't work...like TM ,Silva Mind Control and counseling. None of it could fix the pain and hurt. Only a relationship with God could do that. Cause He is the only one who can undo what you have done.
The outreach program is different. It is kind of like an open door, you can choose to walk through it and find help or not. God can give you what you desire more than anything else, He alone can make all tings new, He alone can restore your childs broken body and He alone can set true joy in your heart.
Your right that lots of women are not Christians who get abortions. I wasn't either. But when all the things you have believed in turn out to be a lie, God is still there.
I hope and pray they will become Christians, several have .
What about those who are Christian, and still abort? What about them carolemarie? Is it okay to abort if they are Christian? Does calling oneself a Christian make them perfect, like you are?
I am tired of your holier than thou attitude. You are a murderer of three. You reward women after they abort. You celebrate one life saved and ignore the nine who were slaughtered, while you tend to comforting the murdering mother. If you think this is what it means to be Christian, than you've got a lot to learn. I know many people who don't call themselves "Christian" who are a million times more Christ-like than you are.
You are either brainwashed into believing you are Christian, or you are LYING about being Christian. You are a liar and you are a murderer.

reply from: Faramir

The post-abortion healing program we teach is bible based. I only know what worked for me and that is what I share. I tried other things that didn't work...like TM ,Silva Mind Control and counseling. None of it could fix the pain and hurt. Only a relationship with God could do that. Cause He is the only one who can undo what you have done.
The outreach program is different. It is kind of like an open door, you can choose to walk through it and find help or not. God can give you what you desire more than anything else, He alone can make all tings new, He alone can restore your childs broken body and He alone can set true joy in your heart.
Your right that lots of women are not Christians who get abortions. I wasn't either. But when all the things you have believed in turn out to be a lie, God is still there.
I hope and pray they will become Christians, several have .
What about those who are Christian, and still abort? What about them carolemarie? Is it okay to abort if they are Christian? Does calling oneself a Christian make them perfect, like you are?
I am tired of your holier than thou attitude. You are a murderer of three. You reward women after they abort. You celebrate one life saved and ignore the nine who were slaughtered, while you tend to comforting the murdering mother. If you think this is what it means to be Christian, than you've got a lot to learn. I know many people who don't call themselves "Christian" who are a million times more Christ-like than you are.
You are either brainwashed into believing you are Christian, or you are LYING about being Christian. You are a liar and you are a murderer.
I usually ignore your posts since they are repetitious and childish.
But you reached a new low with this one. This is about the ugliest post I've seen on this forum. Lucky for you that there are some "prolifers" here who are equally hateful and who will support you with their silence and tacit approval.

reply from: nancyu

A liar and a murderer.

reply from: yoda

No, not really... they may have come down for BC or some other reason. Anyway, I thought your first concern was to convert them to Christianity, so why not just become an evangelist instead of going to the abortuary?
You asked "How come it is okay to post their picture on your website, but wrong to reach out with the gospel message?"
Now that is clearly aimed at ME, so I want to know where that came from.
When did I (or anyone else) object to you (or anyone else) "reaching out with the gospel message"?

reply from: nancyu

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
The bottom line is that she IS saving babies, and yet is mercilessly persecuted on this board.
And she does support personhood, except sees it as not practical at the moment, and an impediment to saving babies RIGHT NOW.
When you look past all the bluster and all the smoke, the bottom line is that there are some hateful people who are prolife. That is the sad reality I discovered on this board.
THIS IS NOT CORRECT. She is NOT saving any babies. Some mothers choose to let their babies live. This has nothing to do with anything that she does. She supports the legality of abortion, by stating that it is legal. This is a lie.
IT IS NOT LEGAL.
AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON.
IT IS ILLEGAL TO MURDER PERSONS.
IT IS ILLEGAL TO MURDER AN UNBORN CHILD
BECAUSE AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON
AND IT IS ILLEGAL TO MURDER PERSONS.
AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON.
IF YOU STATE OTHERWISE WHILE KNOWING THESE FACTS.
YOU ARE A LIAR.
IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO SUPPORT PERSONHOOD, EXCEPT.

AN UNBORN CHILD IS A PERSON.
EITHER YOU SUPPORT PERSONHOOD, OR YOU DON'T.
NO ONE WHO IS TRULY PROLIFE WOULD DENY PERSONHOOD TO UNBORN CHILDREN.
NO ONE WHO IS TRULY PROLIFE WOULD DENY THAT IT IS ILLEGAL TO MURDER THEM.
NO ONE WHO IS TRULY PROLIFE WOULD DEFEND, OR COMFORT, OR REWARD A MOTHER WHO HAS JUST MURDERED HER OWN CHILD.
NO ONE WHO IS TRULY PRO LIFE WOULD DEFEND THE ACT OF COMFORTING OR REWARDING A MOTHER WHO HAS JUST MURDERED HER OWN CHILD.
THIS IS ME JUDGING. THE SAYING GOES "JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED"
I AM NOT AFRAID OF BEING JUDGED, THEREFORE, I AM NOT AFRAID TO JUDGE.

reply from: sander

No, not really... they may have come down for BC or some other reason. Anyway, I thought your first concern was to convert them to Christianity, so why not just become an evangelist instead of going to the abortuary?
You asked "How come it is okay to post their picture on your website, but wrong to reach out with the gospel message?"
Now that is clearly aimed at ME, so I want to know where that came from.
When did I (or anyone else) object to you (or anyone else) "reaching out with the gospel message"?
Nice try, Yoda. She alone can make accusations, claim Chritianity and then dodge answering.

reply from: Faramir

No, not really... they may have come down for BC or some other reason. Anyway, I thought your first concern was to convert them to Christianity, so why not just become an evangelist instead of going to the abortuary?
You asked "How come it is okay to post their picture on your website, but wrong to reach out with the gospel message?"
Now that is clearly aimed at ME, so I want to know where that came from.
When did I (or anyone else) object to you (or anyone else) "reaching out with the gospel message"?
*sigh*
Yodavater is such a master of distortion.
Yodavater misreperesented Carolemarie's sharing of the gospel as "handing out boxes of chocolates."
Why someone who is so interested in saving babies goes to such lengths to misrepresent, distort, and otherwise make nasty snide comments to fellow prolifers--especially someone who has had success saving babies--is beyond me.

reply from: carolemarie

No, not really... they may have come down for BC or some other reason. Anyway, I thought your first concern was to convert them to Christianity, so why not just become an evangelist instead of going to the abortuary?
I know why they are there. They are having the procedure. The BC and other women have already left. I am not guessing, I know this for a fact.Evangelism is the most important thing and women who are seeking abortions seriously need the Lord so they won't do it. That is the most important thing to do with anyone! And this post wasn't about you, even though you seem to think it is.
You asked "How come it is okay to post their picture on your website, but wrong to reach out with the gospel message?"
Now that is clearly aimed at ME, so I want to know where that came from.
I was making an observation. Which is that they(your cheering crowd) like in your face tactics and hate any kind ones. FYI, you are not the only person who post the pictures on websites. I was referring to all you picutre posters all generically. Patrick Johnson, Neil Horsely are a few others..
When did I (or anyone else) object to you (or anyone else) "reaching out with the gospel message"?
Being hateful in their remarks about the method and way I do it is objecting to reaching out with the gospel. If you note, and I am mainly referring to Sandler and Nancy, not anyone; else started complaining about tea and chocolates and never once said anything positive, or even asked questions, they just attacked me and then act like they never do.
I honestly believe that some of you simply hate women who have had abortions. It is obvious in the way you talk and post.
While this is your right, at least be honest and admit it.

reply from: AshMarie88

Even as a woman who has an aborted brother and post-abortive mom, I still love and respect and support her.

reply from: yoda

"Hatefulness" is an objection to the gospel? From what manual did you get that? Or is that something you just made up to try to make them look anti-religious? They have shown NO inclination to be "anti-religious", as far as I can tell..... why would you even say such a thing?
I honestly think you like playing "victim".
But then, I'm reading your mind, and you're the only one who is allowed to do that here, right?

reply from: yoda

Don't believe everything you read, Ashley. Sometime people try to hide behind their past misfortunes to try to get sympathy. No one here has said anything negative about being post-abortive in general. It's other issues, like personhood, and equal justice for all that are the disputed issues, not who has or has not had abortions.

reply from: Faramir

Don't believe everything you read, Ashley. Sometime people try to hide behind their past misfortunes to try to get sympathy. No one here has said anything negative about being post-abortive in general. It's other issues, like personhood, and equal justice for all that are the disputed issues, not who has or has not had abortions.
If he has faithman and nancyu, among others, on "ignore," I suppose this could be a truthful statement, but otherwise it is total bs.

reply from: sander

"Hatefulness" is an objection to the gospel? From what manual did you get that? Or is that something you just made up to try to make them look anti-religious? They have shown NO inclination to be "anti-religious", as far as I can tell..... why would you even say such a thing?
I honestly think you like playing "victim".
But then, I'm reading your mind, and you're the only one who is allowed to do that here, right?
I await with bated breath to see if there's an answer. Note, I'm not holding my breath.

reply from: Faramir

"Hatefulness" is an objection to the gospel? From what manual did you get that? Or is that something you just made up to try to make them look anti-religious? They have shown NO inclination to be "anti-religious", as far as I can tell..... why would you even say such a thing?
I honestly think you like playing "victim".
But then, I'm reading your mind, and you're the only one who is allowed to do that here, right?
I await with bated breath to see if there's an answer. Note, I'm not holding my breath.
Since you are not ignoring me today--may I make a point?
Why is this comment necessary? Isn't it simply goading?
Aren't you doing what yoda has always criticized about me? Aren't you involving yourself here where you are not needed? And aren't you doing it in a way that is very insulting to the person who has yet to have a chance to respond?
I don't necessarily argree that we cannot "butt in" on an open forum. I think it's fair game. But I also think those who preach that it's wrong, OUGHT to practice it, and yoda is not doing that and you are not doing that.
But if I may take a stab at an answer--she feels that the overall act of giving is preaching the gospel. Not just the words in the bible, but the act of kindness. THAT is preaching the gospel, and she feels that by criticizing that kind act that preaching the gospel is being criticized, and I think she has a point. (IF that is how she feels).

reply from: carolemarie

How you present the gospel is part of the gospel. If I tell you that God loves you, yet I am not loving, why would you believe me? If I tell you that Jesus came to died for you, why would you believe me if I couldn't look past your sins to care about you as well? Why would I believe that God thinks I am worth dying for, if you don't think I am worth a cup of tea and a few pieces of chocolate? Or even some kind words. Only someone cruel would want to hurt her as she leaves that place...cruelty is not of God.
God has never been anything but kind and gentle with me, even when I was rebellious and living in sin, He was kind. It is his nature to do so. He didn't make me beg for help, He didn't wait till I was sorry to come help me. He had mercy on me while I was still living in total depravity. He is kind and good and everything He does is kind and good. So I try to imitate that goodness. A simple cup of tea and kind words opens the door so you can speak truth into someones life. Why that is so hard to comprehend!
It is attacking the gospel when you demand that it be presented in a manner that isn't consistant with God's nature. God doesn't have a waiting period to show compassion! On the way out of the clinic, Jesus is waiting for that women to come to Him so He can forgive her and set her free of shame and guilt. We are to LOVE people and Hate the sin. But that doesn't mean we are to be MEAN to people!

reply from: yoda

Sorry, I still don't get the connection between the chocolates and tea and the gospel. I see them as two different, unrelated things. Preachers have been spreading the gospel for centuries without handing out chocolates and tea at the same time. And I absolutely don't see opposition to one as opposition to the other.
But there's another aspect of this tactic that still bothers me.... the idea that some women might take the food gifts as a reward for having an abortion. I can imagine some women thinking "Gee, this is nice... I'll tell all my friends to come to this clinic for their abortions, and I'll come back here myself to get some more chocolates and tea next time. What a nice idea... I wonder if the clinic pays for that. At least there's someone here who is glad I came and had my abortion here. Now I have a positive feeling about it."

reply from: jujujellybean

So if she doesn't support person hood, she automatically can't help, even if she wants abortion illegal and thinks it is wrong for other reasons? Even if she will do anything she can to stop abortion? That doesn't seem right. If she can save some babies, then she can be 'in' the prolife movement. Just because she doesn't agree with your exact interpretation of pro life doesn't mean she isn't and shouldn't be able to help.
It almost sounds like some people are implying that some others just aren't good enough to be on their side, doesn't it? It's almost like they would prefer some of us switch sides and support legal abortion....
I hate to say it, but if they say that you can't support the prolife movement because you don't support personhood, then you are basically asking them to go and join the other side, because if you aren't pro life, you're pro abortion, huh? Joe, what about it?

reply from: yoda

Not supporting something and actively opposing it are two very different things. Anyone who actively opposes personhood is harming the prolife movement, IMO, whether you are prolife OR proabort. Anyone who does not want the unborn recognized as morally and legally the equivalent of a born person is aiding and abetting the proabort effort, whether they are prolife OR proabort, IMO. If that hurts anyone's feelings here, then so be it.
I'll quote Mark Crutcher again: "If you aren't going to help us, then at least get out of the way."

reply from: Faramir

Preachers have a captive audience and time to preach a sermon. There is no time to preach a sermon to a woman exiting a clinic. The "connection" is that they are demonstrating love and kindness to someone who is hurting. The opposition has been that by combining the chocolate and tea with the bible they somehow cancel the message, and that's ridiculous.
And it has been stated MANY times that these same people who give the gift bags are counseling women BEFORE they enter the clinic and are trying to PREVENT ABORTIONS. It is known that they are prolife. There is no way they would see their epression of compassion as a "reward."
And I don't think even the most hardened prochoicer would get an abortion so she could get a free candy bar afterwards. That's absurd.
This is all nitpicking and armchair quarterbacking people who are actually SAVING BABIES, but are doing it in a very controverial way--BY BEING KIND.

reply from: Jenny

I didn't read through the pages of replies because my goal is not to join the fight but just to answer your question.
I do not think that any sin we commit in life is forever against us. I believe forgiveness comes to all who ask for it. And God doesn't forgive and then leave a stamp on a person's forhead for all to see, God washes completely clean.
I believe that a person who has come to the Lord for forgiveness could walk completely away from that area of life and never even look that way again and he is fine with that. Or they could be called by the Lord to go and touch these broken and sad women with his life saving news of love. That post abortive forgiven woman can do so much more to reach out to other women in that situation than any of the rest of us could ever imagine. She has lived that journey and come out with healing and forgiveness. She can understand their motives, fears, and the regret they will feel later better than I could ever begin to understand.
How dare we put a "tainted view" on anyone who God has washed clean?

reply from: faithman

There are two realms which we are speaking about here. Though one may most assuredly find mercy and forgiveness in Christ, that does not exclude one from the consiquence of ones actions on earth. When one kills an innocent human being, they will be a murderer in this temperal time zone. Many a killer has confessed Christ, and still met justice for the crimes they committed. How dare we pervert God's justice, and His Holy Word to promote false sloppy agopy doctrine, at the expence of the womb child. We would not tolerate such false christianity if it were born children being slaughtered, and we should not excuse the womb child being slaughtered, with it's use either.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't expect you to see any connection, since you are not a Christian.
That has got to be the most clueless statement I have heard on this board or nay other. NOBODY would think that! Only you would come up with such a ridicoulous statement. We offer them our help, and our friendship and resourses for healing, as well as a simple gift to show we care. Apparently you don't understand showing kindness.

reply from: yoda

Why did you change the first word of my statement to "Terry"? What was the purpose of misquoting me? What's up with that?
What an idiotic statement. Do you imply that only Christians have intelligence and reasoning ability? Or is that just your way of once again dodging an issue?
Sure I do.
Apparently you don't understand the implications of showing "kindness" to someone just after they have killed their baby. Do you understand what the "carrot and stick" principle implies about giving rewards?
Or will you dodge this issue also, as you have dodged nearly every issue I've raised?

reply from: nancyu

I don't expect you to see any connection, since you are not a Christian.
That has got to be the most clueless statement I have heard on this board or nay other. NOBODY would think that! Only you would come up with such a ridicoulous statement. We offer them our help, and our friendship and resourses for healing, as well as a simple gift to show we care. Apparently you don't understand showing kindness.
CM1, I believe you are the most clueless person on this board, right after you is CM2. There are about 7 of us on this on this board who have thought exactly that. Why would you think no one else does. To say Yoda can't make a connection because he is not Christian is an absurd, bigoted, morally superior comment if ever I have heard one. You are the one who doesn't understand kindness.
Kindness would be to help put an end to abortion instead of encouraging it. You are pro choice (to kill babies) carolemarie. You're aiding in crimes against humanity. I hope you are proud of where "kindness" has brought you.

reply from: yoda

Exactly what I was thinking, but didn't want to say....

reply from: carolemarie

I have much trouble working the quote button....it was an accident.
I don't see what is so hard to understand that a non-Christian doesn't understand what exactly sharing the gospel means and why the way you present something is as important as the words when sharing the gospel. The gospel isn't only words. That comment wasn't intended to be an insult. You don't believe that the sharing the gospel is a high priority at the mill and I think it is the most important thing. You don't understand that and you won't, so it is pointless to debate that with you.
Your statement is just plain silly. Nobody will have an abortion for a piece of candy and a mug! It also shows your heart. You don't care a whit about the women after the abortion. You only care about that baby. I care about both. That is the dividing line in the prolife movement. Some only care about the baby.
God commands us to care about both the mother and the child and everyone else who is there.

reply from: nancyu

No, but if they were going to have an one anyway, best to do it on CM night!
A little extra incentive never hurts, right?

reply from: nancyu

I just can not believe this. I am trying to come up with another conclusion, but I can't: You're insane.
My mother said this to me on many occasions. It is about taking responsibility for YOUR OWN actions: "you've made your bed, now you have to lie in it" I NEVER felt as though she hated me, or that she didn't care about me. To the contrary, on few occasions have I felt MORE loved and MORE cared for.

reply from: nancyu

I'm not sure it's as simple as some just not caring about the mother. I think some actually hate the post-abortive mother, and may go so far as to also hate everyone who doesn't join them in hating her, or at least not show any disapproval of the hatred.
There is hate in the world, and there is also frustration and anger. What better way to put a stop to it then by putting a stop to the source of the hatred and anger.

reply from: carolemarie

I'm not sure it's as simple as some just not caring about the mother. I think some actually hate the post-abortive mother, and may go so far as to also hate everyone who doesn't join them in hating her, or at least not show any disapproval of the hatred.
I think they do to. It is really sad and we should be ashamed if we feel that way and ask God to take the hate out of our hearts.
I have decided to put everyone on ignore.

reply from: yoda

If this was a question of "sharing the gospel", I wouldn't even be in this discussion. But it isn't. It's about giving FOOD gifts to someone who's just had an abortion. No one but you has tried to make it a religious issue, and I suspect you think you see some advantage in painting me as a "heathen". I think your misuse of religion to dodge the issue here is despicable.
I understand your wish to dodge this issue, and change the subject. And I'm not even a Christian!
And no one said they would, so your red herring argument is just another deception in a long line of them.
Apparently, you won't address the issue of your "gifts" conferring a sense of approval to a woman who has just gotten up off the abortionist's table. I can understand why you wouldn't want to.

reply from: yoda

There is hate in the world, and there is also frustration and anger. What better way to put a stop to it then by putting a stop to the source of the hatred and anger.
Notice how it's so much easier to try to smear the personal motives of your opponents, rather than try to deal with the issues being raised? Why, it saves them so much tedious thinking and typing..... all they have to do is stereotype you as someone who "doesn't care" or a "woman hater", then they don't have to deal with what you actually said! Maybe that's because they are unable to deal with the actual issues?
And I thought only proaborts did that....... silly me!
But of course, being called a "woman hater" makes no sense here, since the one doing the name calling isn't a Christian, and can't possible understand these issue, right?

reply from: Faramir

He's not understanding that sharing the gospel can be many things and not just the words.
And I think it is distorting what they are doing by taking the "food gift" out of context of the overall package and focusing only on that, since there is a bible and tracts about healing, and especially since these women who have aborted have seen these same people try to stop them from aborting.
I think yoda needs to look at the overall picture. All he sees is people giving hershey bars to women who have aborted. Maybe he doesn't comprehend the overall situation that these same women save babies with kindness and might know what they are doing.

reply from: Faramir

Let's look at the ENTIRE SCENE here. These are the components:
1) Jane is standing outsied the clinic offering tracts of information and any counseling Mary will accept, in the attempt to persuade her to not abort. OBVIOUSLY JANE IS PROLIFE AND DOES NOT APPROVE OF ABORTION AND IS NOT APPROVING OF MARY'S INTENT TO ABORT.
2) Mary ignores Jane and goes ahead with the abortion.
3) When the deed is done Mary is greeted by Jane who give her the following in a package:
4) A bible
5) Tracts of information to help with the healing process of abortion
6) Information about places she can go to get help
7) A piece of chocolate, unless it is hot outside
8) A sense from Jane that she cares about Mary because of the tragic decision she has just made, and that she will be there for her if she needs her
LET'S PRETEND for the sake of argument that the chocolate is not a good idea. I think it's perfectly harmless, but let's say it is a dumb idea.
Does that little piece of candy cancel out the prolife message that Jane sent to Mary in her attempt to get her to not abort?
Does that little piece of candy cancel out the words of wisdom in the Bible about sin, healing and forgiveness?
Does that little piece of candy make Mary ignore the literature she's been given which is intended to help her heal, and therefore cannot possibly be an approval of abortion?
Since yodavater is ignoring me, would someone please ask him if he thinks that little piece of candy cancels out every prolife message (and even the words of Jesus in the Bible) these women who aro out there saving babies are sending to those who abort and those who they prevent from aborting?

reply from: sander

I for one, do not hate the post-abortive mother. I hate all abortion. I hate that the VAST majority of abortions were performed on perfectly healhty, active, thirving babies that looked like this:
http://www.lifeissues.org/ultrasound/11weeks.htm

Please click on the link. Please know this is why the issue is emotional and even traumatic to consider and to discuss.
I look at the baby and I can't consider that giving creature comforts to the mother who just killed her baby is doing anything other than giving approval, in some sense. Maybe not in a large sense, but still it is there.
I still contend that giving them the Word that will set them free, letting God do the talking, telling them there is hope, there is forgivness is the best way to reach those who are lost and have committed this utterly grieveous sin.
I'm sure that if God felt I was being a "hater" in this, He would convict my conscience, I'm totally open to that, if He so chooses.

reply from: cracrat

What is the fourth dimension on a 4D ultrasound?

reply from: Faramir

What is the fourth dimension on a 4D ultrasound?
Time.
It's a moving image in real time.

reply from: cracrat

What is the fourth dimension on a 4D ultrasound?
Time.
It's a moving image in real time.
Oh, OK. I've only ever seen still ones and thought that link nancy posted was a series of stills spliced together (which is, I suppose, all a movie is but I guess you understand).

reply from: Faramir

You should see if you can find a clip online cracrat. If I find one I'll post it. I've seen a couple of them, and they are amazing. I don't see how someone who is prochoice could watch it and not immediately convert to being prolife. But maybe that's because I don't think it matters to them anymore. Now that it's becoming more and more obvious that there is a person in there, the argument is shifting to the "my body" argument, and if it's a person that is destroyed by abortion, too bad.

reply from: sander

You think this is grotesque?
http://www.lifeissues.org/ultrasound/11weeks.htm

reply from: sander

Okay, that makes sense.
But, I can't understand how anyone could become immune to the pics of aborted babies. Thankfully, most people have not become immune to the pics of nazi death camps, they still provoke a painful and compassionate response.
I would hope aborted children will do the same for as long.

reply from: ZacTheMan

This all very confusing. The way I see it, Abortion is the murder of a child. Period. However, in the bible God says that Jesus died so that ALL of our sins are forgiven. Last I checked, "all" includes the murder of an unborn child. The women who chose the abortion made a wrong decision, but I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that God is ready to forgive her, no matter how sad He is about the loss of a child.
If a woman goes into an abortion clinic, has her baby killed, then just walks out, this is sad. She may never realize what she did was wrong. IF, however, she is given a bag with "rewards", as Nancyu put it, if the "treat bag" includes a bible, then this is good. This gives a chance for God to reach out to her and help her realize what she did and ask for forgiveness.
I am not saying that she should be forced to read the Bible, (I dont think Jesus would want to have the bible thrust at people,) but I do believe that she should be given a second, third, forth, tenth or twentieth chance at forgiveness. If she dosen't want to be forgiven, then that is a choice she has to make. She will have to live with that for the rest of her life.
But I am VERY sure that God DOES care about the women, her soul, her life, her child, and her beliefs. That is my point of view. God is forgiving. Period.
ZacTheMan, Signing off.

reply from: sander

Then you and I have something in common, we lost all family members that did not escape prior to Hitler's invasions.
I do not find it offensive to compare what is happening to the children in the womb. And neither do my family members that are still living.

reply from: nancyu

http://www.lifeissues.org/ultrasound/25weeks.htm

reply from: sander

Thank you for your concern, I was thoughtless in not extending you the same sympathy and I do so now.
I feel very, very bad for those who experienced such terrible things at the hands of such dispicable people.
When my children were young I remember often being so thankful my grandfather had the foresight to leave with his wife and first two children.
Sadly, not all left and after WWII my uncles searched in vain for the remaining family members, not one was ever found.

reply from: sander

Oh yes, I've read it.
It's heartbreaking beyond belief.
Have you ever read, "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom?
It's a wonderful book.

reply from: jujujellybean

Very cruel? The truth can be very cruel, huh? About 44 million more people have died from abortion than from the holocaust. Why is it a million times worse?

reply from: yoda

Yeah, it sure is. At least the Nazis didn't kill their victims until they had lived for a while, and seen the light of day.
Abortion victims get to do neither.

reply from: yoda

You're preaching to the choir. No one has disputed that.

reply from: yoda

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
You have a very myopic view of the world. Being close to someone who has lost family in the Holocaust does not diminish the horror of killing little helpless babies for "non-medical" reasons.
The fact that the babies die before they even have a chance to get to know their families and make friends is incredibly horrible to me, and much worse than the Holocaust in that regard.

reply from: faithman

WELL!!! Ain't it just to bad that we do not have the right to not be offended in America. The comparison should offend folks. It should offend them that we treat womb children the same way the nazi treated jews. A "pro-choice jew" tramples under foot the blood spilt in the camps. It is exactly the same world view, and mind set behind both holocosts.

reply from: sander

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
You have a very myopic view of the world. Being close to someone who has lost family in the Holocaust does not diminish the horror of killing little helpless babies for "non-medical" reasons.
The fact that the babies die before they even have a chance to get to know their families and make friends is incredibly horrible to me, and much worse than the Holocaust in that regard.
I agree, Yoda.
I was/am very close to the situation having lost family members to the holocaust.
In that sense my very father was a survior of the horrors that would have beset him had his father stayed.
Someone had given my first son a pair of wide stripped pj's, I only ever let him wear them one time, it was truamatic to think how close my own father came to the horrors of that time, so I threw those pj's out.
I see both abortion and the Jewish holocaust as crimes against humanity.
So, not all Jews and those who are close to the tragedy are insulted by the comparison. I know I have many Jewish family members who feel the same way I do.

reply from: jujujellybean

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
No it ain't. And don't claim I don't know anything about the holocaust. Sheesh, my dad is like obsessed with the whole topic of WWII, and I know more than I would want to. I AM NOT minimizing in any way what those people went through. It's sad. I never said it wasn't. Another baseless assumption from the proaborts.
One of the definitions of holocaust is: "any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life." You are being naive to say that abortion is not a holocaust; because it destructs life, the dictionary makes it clear it is.
The babies killed every day have their skulls crushed in. They have their arms and legs ripped off by big pliers. While alive. They are freakishly dismembered. That is a holocaust if I ever heard one. You would be stupid if you said it isn't.

reply from: sander

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
No it ain't. And don't claim I don't know anything about the holocaust. Sheesh, my dad is like obsessed with the whole topic of WWII, and I know more than I would want to. I AM NOT minimizing in any way what those people went through. It's sad. I never said it wasn't. Another baseless assumption from the proaborts.
One of the definitions of holocaust is: "any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life." You are being naive to say that abortion is not a holocaust; because it destructs life, the dictionary makes it clear it is.
The babies killed every day have their skulls crushed in. They have their arms and legs ripped off by big pliers. While alive. They are freakishly dismembered. That is a holocaust if I ever heard one. You would be stupid if you said it isn't.
Amen, Juju!
Well said!

reply from: yoda

To the writer of the OP of this thread, my answer to your question in the title is "NO". Now, I think we have just about done this topic to death.

reply from: jujujellybean

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
No it ain't. And don't claim I don't know anything about the holocaust. Sheesh, my dad is like obsessed with the whole topic of WWII, and I know more than I would want to. I AM NOT minimizing in any way what those people went through. It's sad. I never said it wasn't. Another baseless assumption from the proaborts.
One of the definitions of holocaust is: "any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life." You are being naive to say that abortion is not a holocaust; because it destructs life, the dictionary makes it clear it is.
The babies killed every day have their skulls crushed in. They have their arms and legs ripped off by big pliers. While alive. They are freakishly dismembered. That is a holocaust if I ever heard one. You would be stupid if you said it isn't.
Amen, Juju!
Well said!
Thank you! I hate the pro aborts assuming everything. Iknow what I believe and what I know, and they don't!

reply from: sander

You're welcome.
The proaborts do tend to take alot of liberties. But, I like how you stand your ground!

reply from: MotherForLife

Oh yes, I've read it.
It's heartbreaking beyond belief.
Have you ever read, "The Hiding Place" by Corrie ten Boom?
It's a wonderful book.
I can highly recommend 'I Have Lived a Thousand Years' by Livia Bitton-Jackson too. Extremely disturbing but inspirational.

reply from: jujujellybean

You're welcome.
The proaborts do tend to take alot of liberties. But, I like how you stand your ground!
well, unless we stand our ground we won't get anywhere will we? I've got places to go and people to meet, and babies to stop from being killed. Standing our ground is the only way anyone will get anywhere.

reply from: nancyu

If you were very close to people that had suffered either, or had a basic knowledge of history,you would see why. THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.
No. ^THAT is by far the stupidest thing written so far.^
You think the only person affected by an abortion is the mother. Then YOU are the one who is stupid. How about getting a basic knowledge of who is affected by abortion.


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