Home - List All Discussions

Leave Religion out

by: JasonFontaine

Leave religion out of the debate. I am religious. I am devoted. But, this is a debate that can be won without religion or a "moral" code that seemingly disgusts the other side.
Scientist will agree life begins at conception. This is when the chemical properties begin to form who and what we are and will be. Even though it appears to be a clump of cells - it's life.
Therefore - we're legally giving these people the right to murder. That's the debate.
NOBODY is taking choice away. Is it a choice to murder? Or a choice to pro-create? The choice SHOULD be left to the individual - before conception...then, it's a law on the books today....we're not allowed to murder.
The egg is not dead and our argument is really simple. Leave religion out of the debate - and then pray for those who need it the most...
Amen!
https://web.mac.com/jasonfontaine

reply from: nancyu

I agree Jason up to a point. But there are some very religious people who are pro choice. These people can be reached through religious debate.
These debates happen one at a time, and we develop a feel for who we are arguing with. We have to pick and choose the appropriate arguments as we go along.

reply from: teddybearhamster

i agree with you jason. i'm not very religious. i don't think this is so much a religious problem. it's just common human decency and morals not to murder. and like you said, science proves it too.

reply from: nancyu

I'm somewhat religious and others are very religious and some are anti religion. I think though that when reaching the masses as you are, you are probably on the right track by leaving religion out of it.

reply from: JasonFontaine

I am very religious. However, everyone has a different way of promoting this. I am kind of like the guy who sits in the closet to pray.
Many people are turned off the minute you hear "religion" put into any debate. I'm saying for Christians/Religious people of all backgrounds - this debate is better won through non-religious discussion.
Religion is used to deflect the real issue. We could argue this generally and still win the debate without envoking passions from other sects...
And, of course, as believers - we can continue to pray for those with a blindness that would allow seemingly intelligent folks the right to murder the purest form of innocence....

reply from: nancyu

And never forget: An unborn child is a person.

reply from: teddybearhamster

isn't yoda an athiest or something? look how much he works towards making a change. that's a perfect example. he rocks.

reply from: nancyu

Yoda is agnostic. He believes in a creator, but not in organized religion. I agree, he rocks. Each and every single person on earth IMO has a different idea of what religion is, and means, and should be. Even the most faithful sometimes have doubts. (I think, but I could be wrong, though, I'm not sure...)
The only thing I know for sure: an unborn child is a person.
(I know. I sound like a broken record)

reply from: isaiahmom5242007

I do not agree My faith tells me that abortion is morally and ethically wrong and I will not be quiet just so the prochgoicers can have there way. To say that abortion is not a religious debate is wrong it is but it is also a logical debate. Gdod created us and he created us to live and flourish and not to kill our children. I think that when you take religuon out of things then you are doing what those who have a probelm with it want. I say that you can be logical and have Faith to back it up. GodBless

reply from: yoda

Well, if we left out everything that disgusts the other side, we'd have to shut up completely. I feel no need to quote scripture, but I do think it's legitimate to discuss abortion in terms of morality in general. I think most people have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong, and the majority of people feel that killing babies is wrong. All we have to do is to open their eyes to the fact that abortion kills babies.
And of course, the proaborts will try desperately to keep us from doing just that.

reply from: teddybearhamster

Well, if we left out everything that disgusts the other side, we'd have to shut up completely. I feel no need to quote scripture, but I do think it's legitimate to discuss abortion in terms of morality in general. I think most people have an innate sense of what is right and what is wrong, and the majority of people feel that killing babies is wrong. All we have to do is to open their eyes to the fact that abortion kills babies.
And of course, the proaborts will try desperately to keep us from doing just that.
you're a smart man

reply from: jujujellybean

yes, but the choicers that are like on the ehealthforum won't listen to you. you won't convince anyone that way. you will never get anywhere in a debate because of the fact they will attack you about how it's just because of religion. Believe me, I know....

reply from: sander

I think the trick is to understand your opponents point of view. If they're religious it's logical to appeal to their sense of a just and Holy God.
If not, then onward and upward without a religious perspective.
For those of us who are sold out believers it's very dis-heartning to debate a fellow believer who is convinced God doesn't care about the unborn.
I'm amazed how many who call themselves Christian will ignore any and all Scripture that say otherwise.

reply from: teddybearhamster

before i was enlightened and i believed in pro choice, one arguement i would often use was 'quit forcing your religion'. that wasn't getting through to me. when i saw it from a different light, science and plain ole decency and morality, i opened myself up to learning. as far as religion goes, i don't know what to believe, but as a human being with a conscience i know a person is a person from day one and slaughtering people is wrong.

reply from: teddybearhamster

Well, he throws rocks....
he's also doing a lot of good in the world to save people. he should be thanked for that, not picked on. have you seen his website? he's doing good things. give him a break.

reply from: JasonFontaine

Faith is worn, by many on their sleeve
Does shouting - really mean you believe?
On the corner with Bible in hand
Nobody listens to a one piece band
Take a stand. Be heard
Without ever saying a word.
Nobody really believes in praying in a closet. Nobody believes you can live by the Word without shouting it from the rooftops. Whereas in some places in the Bible it speaks of this - it also refers to "getting in a closet and praying". I belive this would cause less division.
Abortion IS a religious issue. I pray that everyone will see our way. However, I think in discussing this en masse -we affect more individuals by leaving our personal religious beliefs out. Agree?

reply from: cracrat

All things in life are religious issues if you choose to view through such a lens. But it's like Sander said, you must tailor your argument to best suit your opponent at that time. What works for one will send another screaming to the hills.

reply from: sander

The operative word in your post is "conscience". A functiong conscinece is the only real thing needed to convince someone that killing a helpless child in the womb is wrong and should be stopped.
Sadly, alot of the proaborts have mis-placed their conscience or have disgarded it all together.

reply from: sander

I agree only partially. As Christians we've been given a command (not a suggestion) by the Lord to go out into the world and tell others of the Good News. And if some feel led to "stand on a corner", I'm not going to tell them to shut up and do it my way or your way.
And do discard, out of hand, a Godly perspective is fool hearty. If your opponent is a religious person, then why not appeal to that perspective?
If not, then stick with what they can relate to.

reply from: teddybearhamster

The operative word in your post is "conscience". A functiong conscinece is the only real thing needed to convince someone that killing a helpless child in the womb is wrong and should be stopped.
Sadly, alot of the proaborts have mis-placed their conscience or have disgarded it all together.
yes you are right unfortunately. some are just sociopaths i guess.

reply from: teddybearhamster

sorry, but i think yoda is great.

reply from: abc123

This is EXACTLY what the prince of this world wants you to do and believe.
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. - Hebrews 4:12-13
This is the same battle; the battle of the two seeds that took place when the serpent deceived Eve by telling her that she surely would not die if she ate the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden. Well after Eve and Adam ate of this fruit their nakedness was exposes.....at this point sin came into our world....
God always does His work through man!!! He could have used angels or any other means but He chose His followers as the vessels to the lost.....
The one thing that the abortion industry doesn't want to hear is the Gospel of Christ. When preaching the Word of God at my local abortion mill I notice that they don't have any problem with the people outside praying, what they do have a problem with is men and women lifting up the name of Jesus, giving the abortion minded women the hope of Jesus and a true choice; not just the choice of death by speaking to them an offering them the truth and help.
Take our schools for example. God isn't allowed in our schools any longer. So what happens when you take God out of the equation...well we see mass murderings (Columbine, VTech), the endorsment of sexual promiscuity (handing out free condoms, birth control behind parents backs including abortions), teaching of evolution as truth. When children are taught lies all their lives from our school system it becomes truth to them. So with evolution being taught as truth and the real truth of God the Creator is being pushed out we see these type of things. One of the columbine shooters wore a shirt saying "natural selection" the day they went on their killing spree. This is the same thinking as Margaret Sanger; this is where the strongest and the fittest survive and the weak and poor are destroyed and extinguished.
Once you pick up that Cross; be willing to stand on it without compromise.......

reply from: sander

Don't pay any attention to the smug, know it all one. Yoda does everything within his power to help the unborn.
People on high horses don't have a clear view.

reply from: teddybearhamster

Well, sure you do! He hasn't thrown any rocks at you (yet). All that is subject to change, mark my words. It just depends on whether you say or do something he doesn't like. You could very well be the next one to go "on the list."
i have said things yoda didn't agree with. he disagreed with me but i don't feel that he was attacking me.

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

God made everything for his purposes. Everything has it's own job and functions as designed for them to do what he wills. We are to pray that His will is done down here on the earth just as it is in heaven. That is why we pray for His Kingdom (includiing Government and rulers) to come to this earth. We are God's bond-servants. We are to have His law written on the fleshy tablets of our heart, He will move us to do them. Coming to a realization of our role and responsibilities should not be an issue to avoid because the rebellious angerly resist hearing it. It is a matter of life and death.
I don't believe in the Joel Osteen approach; refusing to call sin sin, refusing to call Jesus the only Way, meeting with a leader of a sin promoting group (soulforce for homosexual activists).

reply from: JasonFontaine

Yoda is a true soldier - literally in the STREETS...I wouldn't make him angry...he may "enlighten" you on a few things..
One can be religious - one can walk with the Lord, and do so by EXAMPLE. This is my argument.
This debate can be won without religious references.
Science is on our side. Every state is currently allowing murder. You could win a case like this....
In theory - all States are sanctioning murder....if abortion is truly defined for what it is.....
Basically - the courts won't hear a religious, moral issue - they should, but if you put this notion before them - they'd have no other alternative than to rule in your favor....
Wouldn't it be something to see. O.k. Who's going to start the litigation?

reply from: JasonFontaine

It's not intimidaton...sorry.
I don't think he's trying to impress anyone - he has a passion for this cause - and that's impressive enough...

reply from: nancyu

Well, he throws rocks....
he's also doing a lot of good in the world to save people. he should be thanked for that, not picked on. have you seen his website? he's doing good things. give him a break.
Give me a break. He's getting the reward he desires right here from the sucking up and ego stroking of the following he has acquired. The truth is that he's an old sourpuss who gave up on convincing others to see his views long ago. He's just in it to put down those who disagree, and build his own self up in the process...
^^hmmm sounds exactly like someone else I know^^^

reply from: nancyu

Well, he throws rocks....
he's also doing a lot of good in the world to save people. he should be thanked for that, not picked on. have you seen his website? he's doing good things. give him a break.
Give me a break. He's getting the reward he desires right here from the sucking up and ego stroking of the following he has acquired. The truth is that he's an old sourpuss who gave up on convincing others to see his views long ago. He's just in it to put down those who disagree, and build his own self up in the process...
^^hmmm sounds exactly like someone else I know^^^
They say confession is good for the soul. Just let it all out, Nancy...
That may be part of why I'm here, but, after you...age before beauty.

reply from: Banned Member

No, don't leave religion out of the debate. Nor should we leave science out of the debate. Or the views of atheists, Muslims, Hindus, vegans or vegetarians.
What the pro-abortion advocates really want out of the debate is the idea of objective truth and certain absolute morals, such as 'it is wrong to kill human beings'. They would rather diffuse the debate into countless discussions. I will not make such concessions. If religion bothers them, than science is going to bother them and anything else that proclaims the personhood of the unborn human being. No quarter.

reply from: Faramir

Well, he throws rocks....
LOL, I thought that too!
Anyway, he's not really an agnostic. He claimed that he has "do doubt" there is a Creator, and that makes him at least a theist or a deist.

reply from: galen

a·the·ist Audio Help /?e??i?st/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-thee-ist] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ag·nos·tic Audio Help /æg?n?st?k/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ag-nos-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
the·ism Audio Help /??i?z?m/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[thee-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
- noun 1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism).
de·ism Audio Help (d?'?z'?m, d?'-) Pronunciation Key
n. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

reply from: carolemarie

The only reason to be prolife is that there is a God. If there is not a God, then all choices are equally valid, because there is no ultimate standard that is above personal opinion.
So, nope. I don't agree.

reply from: cracrat

That's just plain ridiculous. The God I have faith in doesn't judge me or my actions, I don't think there is any higher power guiding my hand or my decisions. Yet I know abortion is wrong. It has nothing to do with my faith but everything to do with my desire to treat other people with respect and decency.

reply from: Faramir

Well, he throws rocks....
he's also doing a lot of good in the world to save people. he should be thanked for that, not picked on. have you seen his website? he's doing good things. give him a break.
I saw his website for the first time today.
I saw lots of photos of people who were apparently "customers" at an abortion clinic.
I don't know what to make of this tactic, but my gut reaction is that it seems kind of creepy and wrong.

reply from: cracrat

Smacks a bit of when one of our illustrious tabloids ran a name-and-shame of paedophiles campaign. People thought it was a great bit of 'justice' till a paediatrician got lynched.

reply from: Banned Member

Don't project your sense of shame, the shame that a pro-lifer has for an abortionist onto the person having the abortion. If they truly believe that abortion is good and a right, they should have no sense of shame at all. And if they do, they should ask themselves why.

reply from: galen

i agree with Augustine..

reply from: JasonFontaine

If it's not wrong - why bother? I wouldn't mind somebody taking my picture..as long as it's not being used to make money.
It's a double standard - is it not - to fight for something you wish to hide? Do you see the irony.
I think he should post their names as well. Let's see who is doing this thing.
Because, if there is "no" God - then, somebody needs to know their name...right?
I'd like to know how much one of these "clinics" makes in a month. It would blow you away.
Why aren't all pro-choicers conservatives who are on the Board of Directors at Halliburton and have pictures of W hanging on their wall?
You cannot win this debate....sorry...

reply from: cracrat

Aren't there laws against that kind of thing? If there aren't, there should be. The people here might not act upon such information but you know as well as I do that there are some in this campaign who would not stop at holding a banner and trying to counsel wisdom. If Yoda, or anyone else, were to provide an easy source of names and faces of PP customers to those who would do them harm, he would be just as culpable for any harm the befell them as the person who harmed them.
You decry those who do nothing to stop this as providing the abortionists knife, but can not see the folly in posting these pictures? You are more foolish than I gave you credit for.

reply from: galen

sorry but Yoda does not publish names... so that argument is gone. Its not unusual for deadbeat parent's pics to be published here, or the photos of pedophiles etc. If they are not doing something wrong than what Yoda does is no worse than someone taking photos at a rap concert... there are people who will get angry about that too.

reply from: yoda

Thanks teddy, Jason, and nancy. I should have warned you all that saying anything positive about me will enrage certain posters here...... I try to avoid such negativity as much as possible and the iggy button is my best friend sometimes.
You all do a great job of speaking out for the unborn, don't let anything drag you down.... especially someone who wants to argue about how awful someone else is. We've got too much work to do for the babies.

reply from: Faramir

When I can figure out a way to frame it in words I will, but for now it seems to me to be a very disgusting practice.
These are vunlerable and confused women, often victims themselves, who need love and guidance, and not a camera in their face or their picture posted on the internet.
Where is the love in that and what respect would these women have for the prolife movement by being so humiliated?

reply from: Faramir

Thanks. I should have warned you, teddy, that saying anything positive about me will enrage certain posters here...... I try to avoid such negativity as much as possible and the iggy button is my best friend sometimes.
You do a great job of speaking out for the unborn, don't let anything slow you down.
"enrage" ????
You have quite an opinion of yourself Mr. Vater.
Of course you can't see this right now since you cower behind your "iggy button" when you take most of your pot shots.

reply from: galen

humiliation is in the soul of the humiliated.... have you looked at some oft hese women and clinic workers... they act as if they are out for a stroll... and if your just strollin along i'd take your pic too.
If you don't want someone to knwowhat you are doing you go to a place that is private...not to a place you KNOW there is going to be a photographer... its not like he has not been there a while.

reply from: yoda

Yes, that's the general usage of that word, and as you see it doesn't really fit my outlook precisely, since I actually have no doubts that a "creator" does exist. I don't know of a word or category that does fit my outlook precisely, actually, so I use "agnostic" as shorthand.

reply from: Faramir

Since yoda is hiding from me and can't see my posts, could you explain why taking photographs of women at abortion clinics and then posting them on a website is a good thing?

reply from: galen

personal views are just that personal to the person holding them... that makes them hard to define exactly...

reply from: yoda

So far, that hasn't even been a temptation, because I don't know their names. I know that some antiabortionists do post photos of license plates at abortuaries, but so far I haven't done that. I don't see anything immoral about doing it, but to do so would just give the proaborts and the fauxlifers too much ammunition to use to change the subject. They don't want to talk about the awful things going on inside the abortuary, they want to attack me for trying to change some minds before they go inside.
And I'm not going to help them do that.

reply from: Faramir

Yes, that's the general usage of that word, and as you see it doesn't really fit my outlook precisely, since I actually have no doubts that a "creator" does exist. I don't know of a word or category that does fit my outlook precisely, actually, so I use "agnostic" as shorthand.
Look up "theist" or "deist" in your dictionary. One of these will be much more accurate than "agnostic."

reply from: yoda

Exactly. If I photographed these same people just after they came out of a beauty parlor or a store in a mall, they'd be flattered. It's all in where you are when the camera clicks.

reply from: Faramir

Exactly. If I photographed these same people just after they came out of a beauty parlor or a store in a mall, they'd be flattered. It's all in where you are when the camera clicks.
Have you considered photographing them at the moment of conception?

reply from: galen

Since yoda is hiding from me and can't see my posts, could you explain why taking photographs of women at abortion clinics and then posting them on a website is a good thing?
-----------------------------------------
sure... because when they know they are going to be photographed many of them will just turn around and go home, and when they go homw they have to take a little longer to do the dirty deed, and in that time they may change thier mind. its easier to commit a crime when you know you won't get caught, harder when the camera is staring you in the face. Simple psychology.
sorry yoda

reply from: yoda

Actually there's a good story about my "reputation" there. While I was doing duty on the 40 days project, one elderly gentleman told me about a women he knew who panicked when she found out that she was pregnant, and was looking around desperately for a "quick fix". She first considered the mill where I protest, but she said she had heard that "They take your picture there", and she was terrified that someone she knew might see her photo on the website. So, she drove all night to Atlanta, GA, with an appointment to have an abortion there the next day. But she said when she got there, she'd had so much time to think it over that she changed her mind before she had it done. And that old fellow apparently didn't even know who I was.

reply from: Banned Member

Vunlerable and confused women do not account for 1.5 million abortions per year. It's sheer impossibility that that many women can be so vulnerable and confused. I grow tired of you making victims of people that hire a medically trained killer to insert a suction device into their uterus to kill their own child. What do they think an abortionist does? Pay off the stork?

reply from: Banned Member

I bet they wouldn't look so vulnerable and confused then would they?

reply from: yoda

Actually you are right on the mark. And I have seen several "turnarounds" at the mill that could've been just as you described it. The other reason I think that photography is good is that many of them hide their faces as they go in, and my hope is that they will reflect on why they do that as they wait their turn with the butcher. I only stay a hour, so I don't know how many of them leave early, but I think that a woman of good conscience just might think about that.
And I don't know of any case in which a woman or her companion was made to be more likely to abort because I was there. Why should they, their baby wasn't taking their photo.

reply from: Faramir

It could also make people hurry into the clinic and avoid counselors who really care about them.
It could also make prolifers look like thay have sick prurient interests and turn off the comminty to prolifers in general.
There are more ways to look at it than just yours.

reply from: yoda

Vunlerable and confused women do not account for 1.5 million abortions per year. It's sheer impossibility that that many women can be so vulnerable and confused. I grow tired of you making victims of people that hire a medically trained killer to insert a suction device into their uterus to kill their own child. What do they think an abortionist does? Pay off the stork?
Good points, Augustine.
Another thing to consider is that at the time I encounter them, it is too late for love and guidance, and we cannot get close enough to them to speak in a normal voice anyway. All we have is a few seconds as they walk from their cars into the mill, from over a hundred feet away. Whatever tactic we use, it must be effective at a great distance and in a short time. Love and guidance take much, much longer.

reply from: galen

and more ways to look at it than just yours....
alas i believe that the counselors are not allowed close enough to the building to speak to these women...
So what would you do in that situation... what do you do?

reply from: Banned Member

If I didn't know better I would say that these auguments came from a choicer mentality. In fact, I am not sure that I do know better.

reply from: yoda

Excellent question. If he comes up with any worthwhile suggestions, I'll be all ears (and eyes).

reply from: cracrat

Excellent question. If he comes up with any worthwhile suggestions, I'll be all ears (and eyes).
How? You're ignoring him.

reply from: yoda

If I didn't know better I would say that these auguments came from a choicer mentality. In fact, I am not sure that I do know better.
That's just it, there are not any "counselors" there. We are all reduced to being "protesters at a distance", and only for a moment usually.
Some of us do speak out in a loud voice, and one of our number actually has a witnessed save by doing so. Personally, I don't feel comfortable raising my voice to strangers, so I have my large "I AM A PERSON" sign and my camera.
And many of the protesters are happy that I do have my camera there, they feel a bit safer because of it.

reply from: galen

Excellent question. If he comes up with any worthwhile suggestions, I'll be all ears (and eyes).
How? You're ignoring him.
--------------------------------
don't worry cracrat... if he comes up with a good answer i'll post it...
besides that faramir has yet to say what he does in the form of protest... even you say you write letters... he .. well he doges the question.

reply from: yoda

Oh yeah, I'd be very interested to know if he ever answers that question as well........

reply from: galen

gee look at that he left.....

reply from: yoda

What a shocking surprise!!

reply from: Banned Member

I think what bothers you Faramir, is that these images actually put a face on abortion. Real human beings killing human beings. In pictures they are not abstract figures in a theorhetical discussions, but instead real flesh and blood people that are choosing to kill real flesh and blood people. Maybe it is more than you can bear. If being pro-life does not cause some sort of revulsion in you I would seriously wonder about a persons humanity.
There are times myself that I can't even believe that I have to engage in these kids of discussions, actually telling people that it is wrong to kill other people. It should be self evident. Sometimes, it is very much to bear.

reply from: yoda

Sometimes it is almost more than I can bear. Being in close proximity to all those people intent on killing their own children sometimes is profoundly distressing. But that's part of the price we pay...... those of us who actually do try, that is.

reply from: Faramir

I think what bothers you Faramir, is that these images actually put a face on abortion. Real human beings killing human beings. In pictures they are not abstract figures in a theorhetical discussions, but instead real flesh and blood people that are choosing to kill real flesh and blood people. Maybe it is more than you can bear. If being pro-life does not cause some sort of revulsion in you I would seriously wonder about a persons humanity.
There are times myself that I can't even believe that I have to engage in these kids of discussions, actually telling people that it is wrong to kill other people. It should be self evident. Sometimes, it is very much to bear.
Yes, there is a revulsion in seening people actually going through with such a horrible act. I have not ruled out that my revulsion to these photos could be because of that or because I don't have the nerve to do it myself.
But taking that all into consideration as best I can, it still does not seem like the right thing to do.
I was told a story on a Catholic site where I post. This is from memory, so I hope I don't mess it up too much.
A Catholic group had a modelstly successful sidewalk counseling service near a clinic and they were working with women and saving some babies. Then Operation Rescue came along and did one of their rescues and blocked the clinic, and because of that, laws were changed and now the sidewalk counselors cannot get close enough to help the women. This is a case where a prolife tactic backfired and made things worse for stopping abortions.

reply from: Faramir

If I didn't know better I would say that these auguments came from a choicer mentality. In fact, I am not sure that I do know better.
Your personal attacks are getting to be excessive, Augustine.
It is really sad to see Catholics stooping to this, especially against fellow Catholics.

reply from: Banned Member

Attack, attack, attack... Stop dallying around the abortion question. Stop giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone that has had an abortion. Your position looks weak. You conciliate to the pro-abortion movement at every turn. You say you are pro-life, but fail to unconditionally condem abortion. I think that in some way that you are naive to abortion and the pro-life movement, failing to, or worse, refusing to believe that people have abortions and do not care that they are killing people. They kill because it is legal to kill. Do you understand that? the inherent evil that lies at the core of abortion? You use words like vulnerable and scared that only empower people that think of abortion as the only way out. I am trying to wake you up out of this stupor you are in. I will not show them courtesy and I will not be polite tho them and there is no reason to be. Abortion is evil, pure and simple evil. The people that you are dealing with here, and that would ever confront you on abortion are hardened into the culture of death. They believe in death and the right to kill. You can either be an abolitionist, or you can sit around and discuss property rights issues as was done in the 1860s. You can call abortion murder, or think it the result of confusion and make excuses for the very people that are pulling the wool over your eyes.

reply from: carolemarie

I think it is wrong to humilate and shame people.
What if they repent, then stumble across the pictures, or someone else stumbles on them? What if they are depressed and suicidal, as many women become and they stumble across those pictures?
I think it is wrong.

reply from: Banned Member

Then let them proclaim life and make their conversion heard loud and clear to all who will listen. Let them defend the unborn and never let another make the same mistake.

reply from: yoda

Excellent comparison, actually.
When Lincoln debated Douglas, that's the thing that stood out most to me. Lincoln unconditionally condemned slavery and all those who supported it, but Douglas took a more "conciliatory" tone, and suggested that we ought to "leave it to each state individually" (paraphrasing) whether they would permit slavery or not.
Lincoln replied that Douglas apparently did not really oppose slavery if he really wanted to keep it legal where the majority wanted it (again paraphrasing).
And Douglas's position is exactly how many "faux-lifers" stand on abortion today..... they will not oppose it unconditionally, as Lincoln did with slavery.

reply from: yoda

Humiliation and shame are self-inflicted. No one can do that to you, you must do it to yourself. Those photos do nothing but tell the truth about who was at that clinic on that day, they do nothing more.
Then they will simply have to deal with the naked truth as it is.
No one is above the truth, no one is immune to it. We all have to face it sooner or later, why not now? And how would YOU react if you saw YOUR photo on the web going into an abortuary?
And I have a witness who says my photos have saved at least one life. How do you balance that one life against your objections to the photos? Which is more important to you?

reply from: JesusLovesYou

It's hard to leave religion out when so many pro-lifers are called on by God to end abortion. But I will say that even if I was an athiest, I would believe abortion is wrong. It's murder, and you shouldn't need God to tell you killing babies is wrong. We're still right with or without God, but God makes us and our beliefs stronger.

reply from: yoda

Exactly..... you shouldn't need ANYONE to tell you that......

reply from: Banned Member

I believe that God will remember any atheist that spends a lifetime fighting for the unborn. They may not know Jesus, but Jesus certainly knows them.

reply from: JesusLovesYou

Exactly..... you shouldn't need ANYONE to tell you that......
You really shouldn't, but I do have sympathy for those who have been told their whole life there's nothing wrong with abortion and are pro-abortion only because it's all they know. I pray for those poor souls every day.

reply from: Faramir

Excellent comparison, actually.
When Lincoln debated Douglas, that's the thing that stood out most to me. Lincoln unconditionally condemned slavery and all those who supported it, but Douglas took a more "conciliatory" tone, and suggested that we ought to "leave it to each state individually" (paraphrasing) whether they would permit slavery or not.
Lincoln replied that Douglas apparently did not really oppose slavery if he really wanted to keep it legal where the majority wanted it (again paraphrasing).
And Douglas's position is exactly how many "faux-lifers" stand on abortion today..... they will not oppose it unconditionally, as Lincoln did with slavery.
To be prolife and to not be hateful is not to be a "faux-lifer."
To question potentially harmful and abusive prolife tactics is not to be a "faux-lifer."

reply from: Faramir

What is the purpose of posting the photo?
How does it help the woman who aborted?
I'm not getting this.

reply from: Faramir

It's part of the "punishment mentality."
We must make them pay.

reply from: yoda

Sure, it's tragic for a child to be raised like that. But there does come a time of accountability in every life.

reply from: nancyu

Yes, that's the general usage of that word, and as you see it doesn't really fit my outlook precisely, since I actually have no doubts that a "creator" does exist. I don't know of a word or category that does fit my outlook precisely, actually, so I use "agnostic" as shorthand.
Look up "theist" or "deist" in your dictionary. One of these will be much more accurate than "agnostic."
Faramir, Yoda is Yoda. Why do you feel the need to define his religion with a word?

Why does it bother you so much that he photographs PP customers? Here is my thought on that: When Yoda photographs them, SOME of them will feel ashamed. They might ask themselves, "if there is nothing wrong with abortion, why do I feel ashamed? Maybe, because there is something wrong with abortion."
He isn't posting their names anywhere. They are not breaking any laws (at the moment) so he isn't instigating their arrest. It is the same as looking someone in the eye and forcing them to take a good hard look at themselves. I'm willing to bet that he's helped to change many hearts by doing what he does.

reply from: Faramir

Yes, that's the general usage of that word, and as you see it doesn't really fit my outlook precisely, since I actually have no doubts that a "creator" does exist. I don't know of a word or category that does fit my outlook precisely, actually, so I use "agnostic" as shorthand.
Look up "theist" or "deist" in your dictionary. One of these will be much more accurate than "agnostic."
Faramir, Yoda is Yoda. Why do you feel the need to define his religion with a word?
Why does it bother you so much that he photographs PP customers? Here is my thought on that: When Yoda photographs them, SOME of them will feel ashamed. They might ask themselves, "if there is nothing wrong with abortion, why do I feel ashamed? Maybe, because there is something wrong with abortion."
He isn't posting their names anywhere. They are not breaking any laws (at the moment) so he isn't instigating their arrest. It is the same as looking someone in the eye and forcing them to take a good hard look at themselves. I'm willing to bet that he's helped to change many hearts by doing what he does.
I'm just trying to help him find a better word than "agnostic," which does not seem to work in his case.
Regarding the photos--I see your point.
I'm just going with my gut reaction to the website. Something seems wrong about it.
BTW, if this is Planned Parenthood, then does that mean that some of them could be going there for services besides abortion?

reply from: galen

You know Faramir, Yoda should be able to define himself by himself.. if he is OK with the term agnostic... why 'help' him? Its not like he asked you too.
maybe your problem with the pics is that in many cases you are watching 2 people 2 souls walk into a place knowing only one will walk out as a human... the other will go out to an incinerator while its soul is on a diffrent journey. Because you are not sure what that journey is then possible this bothers your subconcious. As it should ( if that is the case) because by your own readings of catholic doctorine you are watching someone commit an act of eternal horror...one that will committ the childs soul to an area without salvation.
could this be it?

reply from: Faramir

Why are you not so interested in telling yoda to not define me as "pro abort" and taking other such pot shots from behind his ignore button? I have not asked for his help either, yet you let that go. You're not very consistent.
And I only said I can't say WITH CERTAINTY that the unborn are guaranteed salvation. It is certainly within the realm of possibility and it is my guess they at least have the same opportunity as everyone else.
I think what bothers me is the total disregard for the woman involved. It seems very exploitive. She certainly would not feel any love or concern by this act.
And then the picture gets posted. Who is that benefiting?

reply from: galen

not yoda... he gets paid nothing.. in fact if i remember correctly he pays for the site by himself for the most part.
as for you not being proabortion...i'm not sure you are or are not.. you say you are prolife, but at the same time seem to have more sympathy for the women than for the children they murdering.
If you look at it from the Church's POV the innocent is slaughtered and the woman is partly to blame... who is guilty. certainly not the child. Your uncertainty of the fate of that child's soul SHOULD bother you. Even more so that the woman's feeling being hurt by a photograph.
possibly this is something you should go on retreat about.

reply from: Faramir

I've been civil and respectful towards you, yet you've goaded me and continue to be insulting.
Regarding posting the photos--what good does that do? How does posting those photos save babies?
And I admit I DO have a concern for the woman who would abort. There's nothing wrong with that. Conern for them will lead to less abortions in the long run. That does not make me proaboart. I'm a practicing Catholic. I oppose abortion.

reply from: galen

what was insulting?! i'm having a conversation...???
i can be insulting... just ask anyone... here i'm being quite civil...

reply from: Faramir

I don't need to ask. I've experienced it for myself enough times.
You could have fooled me, but if that was your intention, my apoligies.
Can you tell me what good it does to post those photos on the internet?

reply from: galen

people talk about the internet... its something that sticks around , so if a woman is seen ther... maybe a friend will go to her and try to help her after the fact.. you must admit that after the fact she may be in real trouble psychologically.
the fact that the camera is there leads some women not to commit the act, posting the photos is just a bit more insurance.

reply from: Faramir

Would you feel good about doing that?
Would you consider yourself to be "witnessing" by taking pictures of them?

reply from: galen

if i could not get any closer than this, yes possibly... but God led me in a diffrent direction.

reply from: 4given

How many times has this been addressed... In regards to Yoda and the pictures, he is combatting the abortion demon in a way that he deems fit.. Not only by use of pictures, which wouldn't shame someone, unless they lacked a conscience. But he also does many other things, including signs, crosses etc. He has taken part in other pro-life action as well. Anyone that has an issue with his approach- especially those that do nothing at all to advance the pro-life movement on the street or in the community- isn't an opinion worth the read anyway. If one life is saved from abortion, than it is all worth it.

reply from: Faramir

I can only judge by what I see.
Someome commented about his website and I looked at it for the first time, and I shared my reaction.
Something seems wrong about taking pictures of those people and posting them.
But maybe I could be convinced otherwise. I'm trying to understand and am trying to see how something like that could be justified.
And thank you for reading and responding to an opinion that was not worth reading.

reply from: sander

Actually there's a good story about my "reputation" there. While I was doing duty on the 40 days project, one elderly gentleman told me about a women he knew who panicked when she found out that she was pregnant, and was looking around desperately for a "quick fix". She first considered the mill where I protest, but she said she had heard that "They take your picture there", and she was terrified that someone she knew might see her photo on the website. So, she drove all night to Atlanta, GA, with an appointment to have an abortion there the next day. But she said when she got there, she'd had so much time to think it over that she changed her mind before she had it done. And that old fellow apparently didn't even know who I was.
Yoda! How wonderful!! You saved a baby and how many of us can say that?
Kudos, awards, rewards and gratitutde!!

reply from: nancyu

That is a great story, and inspiring. What ever anyone can do to make getting an abortion less convenient will work wonders. I sometimes think convenience, (more so than money) is the root of all evil.

reply from: sander

Absolutley right, 4Given!

reply from: Faramir

There is nothing wroing with convenience. And money is not the root of all evil.
But for abortion, the ultimate inconvenience would be to make it illegal and shut down the abortion clinics. But meanwhile, it's legal and we have to win some hearts and minds. Demonstrations and counseling is good, but harrassive tactics, imho, are counterproductive.

reply from: sander

Some do, some whine, moan, complain, gripe, criticize.
I'm sure the babies will take Yoda's approach over the whiners and critics.
Just once I'd like to see some of these so called pro-lifers (and you know who you are) put the baby first.
If the baby could talk, do you think that baby would be criticizing Yoda's tactics, especially the child who lived?
Baby first...some of you need to try it, you might like it and I gurantee the baby does.

reply from: 4given

Exactly. How often has that precious life been ignored to discuss feelings etc.? Thank you for the reminder.

reply from: 4given

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10

reply from: 4given

Convenience.. selfishness.. and on the performing end it is solely about money.. greed.

reply from: Banned Member

Faramir, I have concluded that you are oversensitive and weak on this issue.
You are constantly making accomodations for the conciliators and choice advocates. Somehow for you, we just treat them to badly.

reply from: Faramir

Being prolife is noble and good. Abortion is a grave injustice and those who do something about it are doing good.
But everyone has a soul, and everone whether they are prolife, prochoice, or don't have a clue, is one of God's creatures who He wants to live with Him forever in Heaven.
You say I'm weak about the issue of abortion. I certainly don't make any compromise as far as my belief, however. I think abortion is an injustice and should be illegal.
But sometimes I see those who we consider our opponents being treated like dirt, and I don't think that's good or noble, and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out.
But what is more problematic on this site is the intolerance and political correctnesss that is prevalent. "My way or the highway." If you don't check all the boxes, you're a "pro abort." And some are going so far as to say what's in someone's heart or that they are "false Christians," etc.
I think you are not being very objective.
There are some members here who go beyond their concern for "the babies" and use this cause as an excuse to browbeat and harrass others. I've had to deal with that from the first days I've been here.
Look at the youtube video in my signature if you haven't already. That's what this place is if you dare to speak your mind or question an argument. This is not how fellow prolifers should be treated, but that's the sport here on this site. And you are (possibly unwittingly--I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt) a part of it.
And if I may say so, I think you need a chill pill, dude. You take yourself way too seriously.

reply from: galen

Being prolife is noble and good. Abortion is a grave injustice and those who do something about it are doing good.
But everyone has a soul, and everone whether they are prolife, prochoice, or don't have a clue, is one of God's creatures who He wants to live with Him forever in Heaven.
You say I'm weak about the issue of abortion. I certainly don't make any compromise as far as my belief, however. I think abortion is an injustice and should be illegal.
But sometimes I see those who we consider our opponents being treated like dirt, and I don't think that's good or noble, and I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out.
But what is more problematic on this site is the intolerance and political correctnesss that is prevalent. "My way or the highway." If you don't check all the boxes, you're a "pro abort." And some are going so far as to say what's in someone's heart or that they are "false Christians," etc.
I think you are not being very objective.
There are some members here who go beyond their concern for "the babies" and use this cause as an excuse to browbeat and harrass others. I've had to deal with that from the first days I've been here.
Look at the youtube video in my signature if you haven't already. That's what this place is if you dare to speak your mind or question an argument. This is not how fellow prolifers should be treated, but that's the sport here on this site. And you are (possibly unwittingly--I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt) a part of it.
And if I may say so, I think you need a chill pill, dude. You take yourself way too seriously.
---------------------------
kinda like what you do with me and catholicism.....
we are not all of us rainbows.

reply from: Faramir

With Catholicism there are certain precepts that are not negotiable. There are some definate black and white situations.
That's not the case with the prolife movement. There is a lot of room for negotiation in some areas.
And I have not said you are not a Catholic or are not prolife. I dispute some of your statements based on our mutual religion, however. There's nothing wrong with doing that on a discussion board.
But I don't make any judgements about you personally. And I'm not going to use those differences as an excuse to knock you upside your head.

reply from: 4given

.........................................................................................................
I think you need a chill pill, dude. You take yourself way too seriously.
In closing.. I have never found Augustine to take himself to be anything but a servant in this ongoing battle against the evil of abortion. To insinuate that he is here to serve a fleshly, selfish cause it absurd. My problem with you is that you don't take the aborted, discarded human lives seriously. This is a forum set up to discuss ideas on how to battle the abortion holocaust. You would serve the board better if you identified yourself as needing a casual chatroom with some fence sitting action.. Instead you monopolize precious time and energy to feel a sense of importance. I hope to not have judged you too harshly, but you have been a distraction to this board. After treading through the many ramblings tonight, your place at the Catholic forum better suits you likely. This is an abortion forum. What exactly do you intend to do to help end the abortion holocaust? What do you feel is the best method of doing so- on a citizen level. You personally. What can you do to help end the slaughter? And will you do it?

reply from: carolemarie

That doesn't take that photo down. How would you like a picture of you committing whatever sin you are ashamed of.

reply from: carolemarie

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.

reply from: Faramir

.........................................................................................................
I think you need a chill pill, dude. You take yourself way too seriously.
In closing.. I have never found Augustine to take himself to be anything but a servant in this ongoing battle against the evil of abortion. To insinuate that he is here to serve a fleshly, selfish cause it absurd. My problem with you is that you don't take the aborted, discarded human lives seriously. This is a forum set up to discuss ideas on how to battle the abortion holocaust. You would serve the board better if you identified yourself as needing a casual chatroom with some fence sitting action.. Instead you monopolize precious time and energy to feel a sense of importance. I hope to not have judged you too harshly, but you have been a distraction to this board. After treading through the many ramblings tonight, your place at the Catholic forum better suits you likely. This is an abortion forum. What exactly do you intend to do to help end the abortion holocaust? What do you feel is the best method of doing so- on a citizen level. You personally. What can you do to help end the slaughter? And will you do it?
I have been very careful about not posting in too many threads and in keeping discussions about religion in one or two threads. I don't want to monopolize anything and there are many threads that I have not participated in.
If you look at some of the threads here, however, you will see that there are some that have NOTHING to do with abortion, and you have not complained about them. There are more posts in those irreleveant threads than there are my posts, which I do not think are at all irrelevant.
I came to this site to learn more about about the prolife movement.
Instead, I got an education in how nasty and suspicious some prolifers can be, and how asking an honest question about a tactic or an argument can quickly earn you the label of "pro abort."
There is a thread with my name in it that is a total lie about my perspective on abortion and calling the fetus a "baby," but it gets bumped to the top every day by the proud author, because goading those who disagree with him seems to be his favorite sport.
If you really want to be fair and objective, look at how much is going on here that has nothing to do with me or my posts that is not really doing anything to fight abortion, but is just outright personal attacks, using abortion and babies as an excuse.
If you're interested in my personal goal for fighting abortion it's this: I have a license to build an FM radio station in my town. I worked hard to get this license and it took seven years. It will reach about 50,000 potential listeners. It will be predominantly Catholic programming, and I intend to devote at least one hour a day of programming to serve the prolife cause.
No, I'm not out there on the streets, but will be helping in the way I believe I can best be of service. This station will not go on the air until my funding is complete and I expect that to happen in less than 12 months. Meanwhile I want to learn what I can.
But whether I do a lot, do a little, or do nothing, I don't see what difference that makes on a discussion board, especially since anybody could say anything. There's no way to know for sure what anyone is doing.
Since my first days here I have tried to understand what is the purpose of this board and what the rules are, and so far it seems to be wide open.
You are doing to me what I have been critized for doing, and that is you are moderating me and telling me how to conduct myself here.
Since I'm good natured, fair minded, and somewhat humble, I will respectfully consider what you've said, but the bottom line is that "anything goes" around here, so I hope you'll understand that I might just continue as I have been doing.
If you want to consider my perspective at all as someone who is fairly new, I am shocked and saddened by the amount of hatred and anger I have seen here from prolifers and Christians. I did not expect that.

reply from: carolemarie

What is the purpose of posting the photo?
How does it help the woman who aborted?
I'm not getting this.
Supposedly, it will intimidate women into not going into the clinic. But since the picture is posted after she has gone in, it has already failed, and now Yoda gets to punish her for not changing her mind.

reply from: galen

no carole it seems to be changing some minds... that's all you can ask right?

reply from: joe

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".

reply from: galen

.........................................................................................................
I think you need a chill pill, dude. You take yourself way too seriously.
In closing.. I have never found Augustine to take himself to be anything but a servant in this ongoing battle against the evil of abortion. To insinuate that he is here to serve a fleshly, selfish cause it absurd. My problem with you is that you don't take the aborted, discarded human lives seriously. This is a forum set up to discuss ideas on how to battle the abortion holocaust. You would serve the board better if you identified yourself as needing a casual chatroom with some fence sitting action.. Instead you monopolize precious time and energy to feel a sense of importance. I hope to not have judged you too harshly, but you have been a distraction to this board. After treading through the many ramblings tonight, your place at the Catholic forum better suits you likely. This is an abortion forum. What exactly do you intend to do to help end the abortion holocaust? What do you feel is the best method of doing so- on a citizen level. You personally. What can you do to help end the slaughter? And will you do it?
I have been very careful about not posting in too many threads and in keeping discussions about religion in one or two threads. I don't want to monopolize anything and there are many threads that I have not participated in.
If you look at some of the threads here, however, you will see that there are some that have NOTHING to do with abortion, and you have not complained about them. There are more posts in those irreleveant threads than there are my posts, which I do not think are at all irrelevant.
I came to this site to learn more about about the prolife movement.
Instead, I got an education in how nasty and suspicious some prolifers can be, and how asking an honest question about a tactic or an argument can quickly earn you the label of "pro abort."
There is a thread with my name in it that is a total lie about my perspective on abortion and calling the fetus a "baby," but it gets bumped to the top every day by the proud author, because goading those who disagree with him seems to be his favorite sport.
If you really want to be fair and objective, look at how much is going on here that has nothing to do with me or my posts that is not really doing anything to fight abortion, but is just outright personal attacks, using abortion and babies as an excuse.
If you're interested in my personal goal for fighting abortion it's this: I have a license to build an FM radio station in my town. I worked hard to get this license and it took seven years. It will reach about 50,000 potential listeners. It will be predominantly Catholic programming, and I intend to devote at least one hour a day of programming to serve the prolife cause.
No, I'm not out there on the streets, but will be helping in the way I believe I can best be of service. This station will not go on the air until my funding is complete and I expect that to happen in less than 12 months. Meanwhile I want to learn what I can.
But whether I do a lot, do a little, or do nothing, I don't see what difference that makes on a discussion board, especially since anybody could say anything. There's no way to know for sure what anyone is doing.
Since my first days here I have tried to understand what is the purpose of this board and what the rules are, and so far it seems to be wide open.
You are doing to me what I have been critized for doing, and that is you are moderating me and telling me how to conduct myself here.
Since I'm good natured, fair minded, and somewhat humble, I will respectfully consider what you've said, but the bottom line is that "anything goes" around here, so I hope you'll understand that I might just continue as I have been doing.
If you want to consider my perspective at all as someone who is fairly new, I am shocked and saddened by the amount of hatred and anger I have seen here from prolifers and Christians. I did not expect that.
--------------------------
glad to hear about the station...

reply from: carolemarie

I have never liked this idea, never will. If I had stumbled across my picture on a site it would have destroyed me! There was a time when I was so depressed and suicidal that would have pushed me over the edge. I couldn't have coped with that...
God will deal with those who choose wrong. We don't need to seek to cause them pain and grief.

reply from: Faramir

I hate to say this, but I have been here long enough to know that it is not as outrageous as it would seem to a person who has a normal amount of compassion. I would not be surprised that if one of those girl's on yoda's wall of shame committed suicide over her photo being posted, if it would not be a cause of celebration or at least a "she deserved it" comment.

reply from: carolemarie

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
That is why you share the gosepl. But it all hinges on acepting Jesus. If you don't, you go to hell.

reply from: galen

I hate to say this, but I have been here long enough to know that it is not as outrageous as it would seem to a person who has a normal amount of compassion. I would not be surprised that if one of those girl's on yoda's wall of shame committed suicide over her photo being posted, if it would not be a cause of celebration or at least a "she deserved it" comment.
---------------------
NO death is a cause for celebration... especially not those of innocent children.
What will you do on the AIR faramir....
i look forward to hearing it..

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
There is that buzz word "accept Christ". Did this come from the New Testament?Did Jesus preach, "Come just as you are and accept Christ"?
The way to show your acceptance is by obeying the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). Those whose works are wrought in Christ (feeding, clothing and sheltering the needy) will receive the inheritance. To those who claimed they knew Christ and claim that they did great works in his name, if they have not fed, clothed or sheltered the needy, if they have practiced sin, Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall inherit the Kingdom of God; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 'You must be a doer, and not a hearer only."
We were made for "good works". Those who practice sin (lawlessness) will under no circumstances inherit the Kingdom, regardless of their claims that they "know the Lord". "He who says he knows Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If you don't have good works your permanent abode will be hell.

reply from: galen

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
There is that buzz word "accept Christ". Did this come from the New Testament?Did Jesus preach, "Come just as you are and accept Christ"?
The way to show your acceptance is by obeying the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). Those whose works are wrought in Christ (feeding, clothing and sheltering the needy) will receive the inheritance. To those who claimed they knew Christ and claim that they did great works in his name, if they have not fed, clothed or sheltered the needy, if they have practiced sin, Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall inherit the Kingdom of God; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 'You must be a doer, and not a hearer only."
We were made for "good works". Those who practice sin (lawlessness) will under no circumstances inherit the Kingdom, regardless of their claims that they "know the Lord". "He who says he knows Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If you don't have good works your permanent abode will be hell.
-------------------------------------
actually Christ is from the greek khristos (???????) meaning annoited one...messiah means annoited one also but from hebrew...

reply from: Faramir

I hate to say this, but I have been here long enough to know that it is not as outrageous as it would seem to a person who has a normal amount of compassion. I would not be surprised that if one of those girl's on yoda's wall of shame committed suicide over her photo being posted, if it would not be a cause of celebration or at least a "she deserved it" comment.
---------------------
NO death is a cause for celebration... especially not those of innocent children.
What will you do on the AIR faramir....
i look forward to hearing it..
As far as prolife programming goes--I don't know yet. Do you know of any radio programming that is devoted to the prolife movement? I mean a regular daily program and the main topic is prolife.
We could also do some local work with discussions with local prolife activists and those who run the shelters for pregnant women.
It's really wide open at this point.
Because of the rules we agreed to when we applied, at least 4 hours a day we would have to do local orginal programming (as opposed to just rebroadcasting national programs). It could be that some of the local programming could be about the prolife movement.
If you have any ideas at all, feel free to share here or by PM. This radio project is a daunting task, but a great opportunity.

reply from: carolemarie

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
There is that buzz word "accept Christ". Did this come from the New Testament?Did Jesus preach, "Come just as you are and accept Christ"?
The way to show your acceptance is by obeying the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). Those whose works are wrought in Christ (feeding, clothing and sheltering the needy) will receive the inheritance. To those who claimed they knew Christ and claim that they did great works in his name, if they have not fed, clothed or sheltered the needy, if they have practiced sin, Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall inherit the Kingdom of God; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 'You must be a doer, and not a hearer only."
We were made for "good works". Those who practice sin (lawlessness) will under no circumstances inherit the Kingdom, regardless of their claims that they "know the Lord". "He who says he knows Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If you don't have good works your permanent abode will be hell.
The thief on the cross didn't do anything except believe and is in heaven.
All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Jesus told Nic. that a man had to be born again to enter heaven.
Its by faith we are saved, not by works so no man can boast.

reply from: galen

gee this pforum doesn't recognise greek letters... and after i wrote it all pretty like.

reply from: yoda

Totally, actually. I neither ask for nor accept donations.

reply from: yoda

Yep. That one life I'm certain I saved makes all of it more than worthwhile.

reply from: yoda

It's one very small oasis in a very large desert of slaughter...... but it does give me more strength to go on. Thanks.

reply from: galen

all i can be sure on is you should not solicit pregnant women.especially ones in shelters.. you'll have all sorts of violations on you... they have to come to you first... the rest i'm not sure of. I know around here there are no radio programmes i've ever heard of that are prolife..

reply from: yoda

Yes, I support ANY non-violent way to reduce abortion.

reply from: yoda

I like the way you say that..............

reply from: yoda

Absolutely so. In fact he's much better than I at staying on topic and avoiding distractions here. The iggy button works wonders to stop seeing all the carping, whining, and personal attacks of the "distracters" on this forum.

reply from: Faramir

What I had in mind was to talk with the directors and those who run those places. Hopefully we could help them raise some money.

reply from: 4given

How can you say what you "could not have coped with"? Were you depressed and suicidal over the abortions? How do you suppose you could have "stumbled" over them? All according to God's purpose. Do you suppose in that time in your life any evidence of your undoing may have served as a healthy reminder even of what you needed to rise above? It isn't about causing pain and grief, but preventing it- especially to the unborn, silent victim. How do you object to any lives saves via a camera lens Carole? Why would you, when there are reports of just that? You know if and how abortion has wounded you. Why not make it so another woman doesn't spend a lifetime anguishing through numerous poor choices to remedy and seperate herself from that? Have you considered what isn't seen on the other end of the lens? The helpless and safe child.. and God's Word in relation to that life?
"Deliver those who are drawn toward death,
And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.
If you say, "surely we did not know this,"
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?"
(proverbs 24:11-12)

reply from: yoda

Well, I asked you first.... but since you asked, I think whatever embarrassment I felt would probably be well deserved and teach me a lesson. How about you?

reply from: yoda

Are you now my spokesperson? If you are, then you're fired.
Intimidation is not part of the motivation for the photos. Stimulation of the thought process is. The hope is that whatever discomfort is felt will stimulate thoughts about WHY that discomfort is there, and why they hide their faces at the door. Some do change their minds and leave early, but unfortunately we don't get to talk to them and find out why.
If the photos were not known to be getting posted online, then the camera would not have any effect on them as they enter. That's why they are posted online. Please don't presume to speak for me.

reply from: yoda

Someone here once told FMan he was way out of line, telling other posters they were going to hell...... I forget who that was now.... maybe I'll remember later....

reply from: Faramir

Well, I asked you first.... but since you asked, I think whatever embarrassment I felt would probably be well deserved and teach me a lesson. How about you?
There might be something to be said for this, but I would not think it is my business or my right to be the one taking the picture.

reply from: 4given

Was it only one person? Seems I have read that a few times....

reply from: yoda

Predictions like that are notoriously inaccurate sometimes. So far, no one has posted anything on my website to the effect that they were "destroyed" by seeing their photo there.
But perhaps, just maybe, it is good for us to have our misdeeds exposed to the light of day, rather than hidden away in a closet. Perhaps standing naked in front of our peers is good for our humility. I know we all need more of that, don't we?

reply from: galen

possibly... you need to go thru Catholic charities in order to do that... NEVER try to approach a crisis / abuse shelter though....

reply from: Faramir

Are you now my spokesperson? If you are, then you're fired.
Intimidation is not part of the motivation for the photos. Stimulation of the thought process is. The hope is that whatever discomfort is felt will stimulate thoughts about WHY that discomfort is there, and why they hide their faces at the door. Some do change their minds and leave early, but unfortunately we don't get to talk to them and find out why.
If the photos were not known to be getting posted online, then the camera would not have any effect on them as they enter. That's why they are posted online. Please don't presume to speak for me.
Can someone tell me (since yoda has me on ignore and cannot see this post) how these women know that their photo will be posted online? And how doe he know these women are there for abortions? Is it possible they are there for other reasons?

reply from: faithman

Predictions like that are notoriously inaccurate sometimes. So far, no one has posted anything on my website to the effect that they were "destroyed" by seeing their photo there.
But perhaps, just maybe, it is good for us to have our misdeeds exposed to the light of day, rather than hidden away in a closet. Perhaps standing naked in front of our peers is good for our humility. I know we all need more of that, don't we?
If it would have "destroyed" it after the first kill, maybe 2 would still be alive, or at least not concieved to be aborted.Destroying a killer before they kill sounds like a good thing to me.

reply from: galen

Are you now my spokesperson? If you are, then you're fired.
Intimidation is not part of the motivation for the photos. Stimulation of the thought process is. The hope is that whatever discomfort is felt will stimulate thoughts about WHY that discomfort is there, and why they hide their faces at the door. Some do change their minds and leave early, but unfortunately we don't get to talk to them and find out why.
If the photos were not known to be getting posted online, then the camera would not have any effect on them as they enter. That's why they are posted online. Please don't presume to speak for me.
Can someone tell me (since yoda has me on ignore and cannot see this post) how these women know that their photo will be posted online? And how doe he know these women are there for abortions? Is it possible they are there for other reasons?
---------------------
he's pretty well known in the community....

reply from: galen

FM!!! i always knew you were toxic.

reply from: yoda

It's fascinating to hear all the objections to the "wall of shame" as Fartnomore calls it. Previously, the main objection I heard was from the proaborts saying that it could cause someone to be harassed and/or stalked. When I objected that there was no record of that ever happening, they had no response.
Now we have a "quasi-lifer" claiming that some of my subjects may commit suicide because their photos are on my website..... and of course, there is no record of that happening because of any abortion mill photographs on any antiabortion website. But do you think that will silence Fartnomore? Somehow, I doubt it.....
I guess if you can't do anything useful yourself, all you can do is attack others who are trying their best to do something about the slaughter.

reply from: galen

so educate him... he wants to start a radio programme.

reply from: faithman

Glow in the dark baby!!

reply from: yoda

You're right....... I was understating the case........

reply from: galen

hmmm i might have to take you with me to a rave!

reply from: Faramir

Have you considered that the presence of a man with a camera could seem very violating to someone who is very confused and in trouble and that it might make them unlikely to reach out to the prolife side now or in the future?
Have you considered that more lives could be lost by this tactic than are saved by it? (If they are saved at all. We have no tangible proof even of that one alleged instance).

reply from: carolemarie

Well, you are right, I am not your spokesperson and the intimidation remark was uncalled for. I apologise for being rude and putting motives in your mouth. Obviously if they were not posted it wouldn't work. I am glad that one girl changed her mind.
But I am still against the idea.

reply from: Banned Member

It may prove that recognizing the face of Jesus Christ in every human being might prove the better evidence of faith than mere empty words. In every unborn child that is killed by abortion is the face of Jesus Christ and to defend them, is to defend Christ.
Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

reply from: yoda

Hard to say, but it seems to me that those 3 babies didn't see themselves on the internet, and they got "destroyed" anyway.

reply from: yoda

Yeah, they even have a big yellow sign in the window of the abortuary referring to my videotaping activities. And too, the big sign with my web address on it might give them a clue....... ya think?

reply from: yoda

If he speaks on the radio like he posts here, I'm doubt he will do the babies any good.

reply from: Faramir

It's fascinating to hear all the objections to the "wall of shame" as Fartnomore calls it. Previously, the main objection I heard was from the proaborts saying that it could cause someone to be harassed and/or stalked. When I objected that there was no record of that ever happening, they had no response.
Now we have a "quasi-lifer" claiming that some of my subjects may commit suicide because their photos are on my website..... and of course, there is no record of that happening because of any abortion mill photographs on any antiabortion website. But do you think that will silence Fartnomore? Somehow, I doubt it.....
I guess if you can't do anything useful yourself, all you can do is attack others who are trying their best to do something about the slaughter.
I think yoda should take me off ignore, since he's getting confused by second hand information.

reply from: yoda

That's why the put different colors in the crayon box, so we can all do things our own way. And hopefully, respect the colors that others choose. And thanks for the kind words, btw.

reply from: Faramir

If he speaks on the radio like he posts here, I'm sure it won't do the babies any good.
I would have real prolifers speak on the radio. Not pretend ones like me.

reply from: nancyu

More emotional blackmail from the sainted Carolemarie.

reply from: Faramir

"radio programme"
programme?
Are you from Europe?

reply from: GodsLaw4Us2Live

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
There is that buzz word "accept Christ". Did this come from the New Testament?Did Jesus preach, "Come just as you are and accept Christ"?
The way to show your acceptance is by obeying the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). Those whose works are wrought in Christ (feeding, clothing and sheltering the needy) will receive the inheritance. To those who claimed they knew Christ and claim that they did great works in his name, if they have not fed, clothed or sheltered the needy, if they have practiced sin, Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall inherit the Kingdom of God; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 'You must be a doer, and not a hearer only."
We were made for "good works". Those who practice sin (lawlessness) will under no circumstances inherit the Kingdom, regardless of their claims that they "know the Lord". "He who says he knows Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If you don't have good works your permanent abode will be hell.
The thief on the cross didn't do anything except believe and is in heaven.
All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Jesus told Nic. that a man had to be born again to enter heaven.
Its by faith we are saved, not by works so no man can boast.
You may want to remember that the Bible says, "The sum of your word is truth." Proper context means everything must be summed up to get a complete an accurate picture.
Jesus said a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom (the Kingdom will be on the earth, not in heaven). There is no reference to heaven.
The man on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom but Jesus said he could give an answer that day: "Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'I tell you truly today...you will be with me in paradise.'" Jesus did not tell him he was going to "heaven". It seems the man on the cross said he was being punished justly and getting what he deserved. A good attitude, repentance and respect for the law and the Messiah are needful. The man on the cross believed Jesus was the King, rather than the sacrificial Lamb. He didn't believe Jesus "died for his sins". But he did believe Jesus was the King and could pardon him.
James said 2:24, 26 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone....so faith without deeds is dead." Failure to have deeds and be a doer of the word means one's faith is "dead", being alone. Only living faith can deliver from death.
Calling on the name of the Lord means more than good vocalization. One must be a follower, a doer. Why call to the King for deliverance and then decide to ignore and go against all his pronouncements; that cannot save.
A few words as you have delivered are not the "Sum total of God's truth". That is why there is a one thousand plus page Bible, not a one page handout listing the ABC sinner's prayer that saves. Paul encouraged Timothy to grow in knowledge so that he could discern between good and evil. It's a big job growing into the mature man that God desires us to be. God gives the tools to get the job done. he gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, He writes His law on the fleshy tables of our heart and moves us to keep them. However, that is completely optional on our part, we are not possessed, we can chose death instead. It's not a 30 second prayer, now you are guaranteed to float off to heaven arrangement.

reply from: carolemarie

Hard to say, but it seems to me that those 3 babies didn't see themselves on the internet, and they got "destroyed" anyway.
That was uncalled for.

reply from: yoda

Was it?
You referred to being "destroyed" in what I assume you meant an emotional way..... and yet you left the PHYSICALLY destroyed babies out of the equation completely.
Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?
Can you answer that one?

reply from: Faramir

Hard to say, but it seems to me that those 3 babies didn't see themselves on the internet, and they got "destroyed" anyway.
That was uncalled for.
Like I've said a few other times--he's as mean as FM, just that he is more sneaky about it.
That's one reason why I find it hard to believe there's a good motive behind his picture taking.

reply from: galen

---------------------
I grew up part time in Ireland

reply from: carolemarie

They will be in hell along with anyone who doesn't accept Christ. Your works don't save you.
Now CM we should not be condemning here...as Christians we must love all "sinners".
There is that buzz word "accept Christ". Did this come from the New Testament?Did Jesus preach, "Come just as you are and accept Christ"?
The way to show your acceptance is by obeying the Messiah (Christ means Messiah). Those whose works are wrought in Christ (feeding, clothing and sheltering the needy) will receive the inheritance. To those who claimed they knew Christ and claim that they did great works in his name, if they have not fed, clothed or sheltered the needy, if they have practiced sin, Jesus will say, "I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall inherit the Kingdom of God; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven." 'You must be a doer, and not a hearer only."
We were made for "good works". Those who practice sin (lawlessness) will under no circumstances inherit the Kingdom, regardless of their claims that they "know the Lord". "He who says he knows Him and keepeth not His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If you don't have good works your permanent abode will be hell.
The thief on the cross didn't do anything except believe and is in heaven.
All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Jesus told Nic. that a man had to be born again to enter heaven.
Its by faith we are saved, not by works so no man can boast.
You may want to remember that the Bible says, "The sum of your word is truth." Proper context means everything must be summed up to get a complete an accurate picture.
Jesus said a man must be born again to enter the Kingdom (the Kingdom will be on the earth, not in heaven). There is no reference to heaven.
The man on the cross asked Jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom but Jesus said he could give an answer that day: "Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him, 'I tell you truly today...you will be with me in paradise.'" Jesus did not tell him he was going to "heaven". It seems the man on the cross said he was being punished justly and getting what he deserved. A good attitude, repentance and respect for the law and the Messiah are needful. The man on the cross believed Jesus was the King, rather than the sacrificial Lamb. He didn't believe Jesus "died for his sins". But he did believe Jesus was the King and could pardon him.
James said 2:24, 26 "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone....so faith without deeds is dead." Failure to have deeds and be a doer of the word means one's faith is "dead", being alone. Only living faith can deliver from death.
Calling on the name of the Lord means more than good vocalization. One must be a follower, a doer. Why call to the King for deliverance and then decide to ignore and go against all his pronouncements; that cannot save.
A few words as you have delivered are not the "Sum total of God's truth". That is why there is a one thousand plus page Bible, not a one page handout listing the ABC sinner's prayer that saves. Paul encouraged Timothy to grow in knowledge so that he could discern between good and evil. It's a big job growing into the mature man that God desires us to be. God gives the tools to get the job done. he gives the gift of the Holy Spirit, He writes His law on the fleshy tables of our heart and moves us to keep them. However, that is completely optional on our part, we are not possessed, we can chose death instead. It's not a 30 second prayer, now you are guaranteed to float off to heaven arrangement.
I didn't post the whole bible, due to time and space limitations. I have no idea what religion you follow, but I stand on the word of God on this.
If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is the Lord you will be saved. It is about a relationship, not religion. And once you meet the Lord, you do things because you love Him and want to please Him! Works come because you love.
But if you just do works, that is not profitable. All of us need a Saviour because all of us have sinned and continue to sin. Only Jesus can forgive our sins and set us free. Works are worthless without a Saviour.

reply from: Faramir

Was it?
You referred to being "destroyed" in what I assume you meant an emotional way..... and yet you left the PHYSICALLY destroyed babies out of the equation completely.
Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?
Can you answer that one?
This pric* doesn't deserve an answer cm, and I hope you don't give him one.
I think I see what motivates him now and it ain't "the babies."
They are an excuse.
He apparently is motivated by hate, anger, and a sick desire to degrade others so that he can elevate himself.

reply from: Banned Member

Words are cheap CarolMarie. Do something. The call to follow Christ is a call to do works from the heart in faith.
Many will say "Lord, Lord" to whom he will reply, "I never knew you".
Faith without works is dead.
But who is to say that in the wordless actions of love of neighbor how much faith is seen by Christ, even if unproclaimed by the lips?

reply from: carolemarie

Was it?
You referred to being "destroyed" in what I assume you meant an emotional way..... and yet you left the PHYSICALLY destroyed babies out of the equation completely.
Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?
Can you answer that one?
Yes. It is uncalled for to ask me "when did you stop beating your wife questions"

reply from: Faramir

You should read Timothy, CM. Works don't save, that's true, but there is no real faith without works. The two go together. It is by the grace of God one can have faith and do good works, so nobody can take credit for either.

reply from: Faramir

Was it?
You referred to being "destroyed" in what I assume you meant an emotional way..... and yet you left the PHYSICALLY destroyed babies out of the equation completely.
Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?
Can you answer that one?
Yes. It is uncalled for to ask me "when did you stop beating your wife questions"
It was a lot worse than that. He was rubbing your nose in your abortions in his own sneaky and disgusting way.

reply from: carolemarie

we are saved by grace, not works. Salvation is a free gift to those who believe.
God changes you and your changed life shines light into the world. Doing stuff isn't what God is after. He is after a changed heart.

reply from: carolemarie

But if you don't believe in Jesus, works are pointless.

reply from: Faramir

But if you don't believe in Jesus, works are pointless.
I have to disagree with you here.
I believe there is salvation for those who have never heard Jesus' name but who have done the best they can with what they know.
Most people in the world will never know about Jesus. But do you think God would hold that against them if it were because of no fault of their own?
And I think I should have said to read James instead of Timothy.

reply from: Faramir

I think you will find that though many Protestants misunderstand the idea of faith and works, that many of them are doing very good works, like CM is doing. I don't think you need to tell her to "do something."

reply from: sander

Predictions like that are notoriously inaccurate sometimes. So far, no one has posted anything on my website to the effect that they were "destroyed" by seeing their photo there.
But perhaps, just maybe, it is good for us to have our misdeeds exposed to the light of day, rather than hidden away in a closet. Perhaps standing naked in front of our peers is good for our humility. I know we all need more of that, don't we?
Either one is MOST concerned for the baby OR most concerned for the mother.
It's as plain as any picture you've taken that CM and fartnomore have the baby secondary. Sickening and hypocirtes both.
CM bows down and kisses the bloody feet of the earthly law that allows abortion.
IF pedophile acts became legal, she would have to then be outraged that not only are their pictures taken and posted, but there's an entire TV series showing these men on camera awaiting their victims.
Murdering a child in the womb is as vile an autrocity as harming a child after being born.
And she calls me a horses ass and fartnomore calls you a pric*....don't they make a lovely on line hubby and wife fake prolife duo?

reply from: teddybearhamster

if they aren't doing anything wrong what's the big deal about them having their picture taken?

reply from: sander

Somebody has to speak up for the babies! Yoda does more than most, certainly MORE than fartnomore ever dreamed...Yoda is action the other one is all talk...and proabort talk at that!

reply from: Faramir

Somebody has to speak up for the babies! Yoda does more than most, certainly MORE than fartnomore ever dreamed...Yoda is action the other one is all talk...and proabort talk at that!
And that gives him the right to bully someone else here?
Sorry, but it doesn't.
And it sure makes one wonder if he could stoop that low here, what the heck his reasons are for harrassing women with his camera on the street.
This is bs, since there can be equal concern.
But the mother is a person too. I think you've forgotten that.
Why don't you make legitimate points and have honest disagreements? Lying isn't necessary.
And we ALL share the guilt and responsibility for this. Our culture has been telling these women for many years that abortion is good.
These women are often victims themselves. So your analogy does not hold.
You are way too anxious to judge and punish others. Get off your self-righteouls high horse so you can see what is going on, and so that you might have an ounce of compassion for the women involved in this tragedy.
And you've been an enabler to two malicious and nasty posters on this site, one of them being overt and obvious, the other being very sneaky about it. You've encouraged and enjoyed their abusiveness.

reply from: galen

its not judging .. its more behaviour modification.

reply from: Faramir

Miss Perfect could use a little of that herself.

reply from: galen

who me?
i think we all could.

reply from: Faramir

No, I wasn't referring to you, but yes we all could use some help, at least I should speak for myself and admit that.
You're cool for the most part, except you go through some periods when you're kind of nasty.

reply from: cracrat

Oh yeah, I'd be very interested to know if he ever answers that question as well........
I know you didn't ask me this question but I thought about it anyway.
Why not round up a bunch of kids, get one of those portable playgrounds (you know, with a slide, swing, climbing frame etc.), the more brightly coloured the better, and set it up as close to PP as you reckon you'll get away with. Get the kids to play and lark about having as much fun and making as much noise as they can. The customers would have to walk past, they'd at least hear it within 200yds and the colours would draw their eye. Wouldn't the sight/sound of the children playing make people think again? You'd get some protection from the pro-choice too, since you're just letting your kids play and not overtly protesting. And there'd be no need for photos.
I'd appreciate someone re-posting this so Yoda and Sander and anyone else who ignores me can see.

reply from: yoda

I didn't. I asked you which of two things was more important to you, and you refuse to answer.
And your response, curiously enough, sound precisely like something Faramir would say.

reply from: yoda

The question I asked would've made that situation a bit more clear, but I didn't get an answer.... I got a typical fartnomore response instead. Curious, eh?

reply from: yoda

Really good question, actually. Apparently, from what I can tell, the "feelings" of the mothers having abortions is more important (to some) than doing something (non-violent) that has a chance of changing her mind and saving the baby. So, I guess some value "feelings" over innocent life itself.
What does that add up to, making women feel good as they kill their babies (and afterward) is more important to some than saving the babies? Apparently so......

reply from: yoda

Ah, but apparently there are some who do not want that "behavior" modified, or at least prefer not to offend anyone while trying to save babies. I think they have their priorities upside down, personally.

reply from: abc123

Acts 4:11-12 - He (Jesus) is the Stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for ther is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.
Romans 1:18-21 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For salvation one must call upon the name of Jesus......He is the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man comes to Father but through Him. So yes God will hold it against them.

reply from: abc123

They were saved by having faith in God to send Jesus Christ that became flesh and die for the sins of the world.
Hebrews 11:24-26 - By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
John 5:46 - For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
Job 19:25-26 - As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;

reply from: sander

The question I asked would've made that situation a bit more clear, but I didn't get an answer.... I got a typical fartnomore response instead. Curious, eh?
Very curious.
Joined at the hip, one and the same, who knows. But, still sickening.

reply from: abc123

Then Jews are going to continue to wait as their is no other Savior than Jesus that is to come.

reply from: sander

Then Jews are going to continue to wait as their is no other Savior than Jesus that is to come.
Wasn't Moses part of the transiguration? Didn't the disciples see Jesus and Moses conversing or was he not among them? I can't remember where that scripture is. But the scriptures you gave are obviously saying that Moses and all other OT Jews who were faithful are in heaven.
And where's that scripture that Jesus said the OT Jews would have rejoiced at His coming....when I get time I'll look up these scriptures.
There's every reason to believe that Moses would have accepted Jesus, but being under the OT laws and Jesus not being revealed yet there was no need.

reply from: Banned Member

No, I don't believe that all atheists will go to hell. And neither do I think that all who claim to believe will be saved from hell. I believe that God in His wisdom knows who, by the witness of their lives, living out the greatest command knows best as judge who is to be saved and who will not be saved. We are judged on the balance of our lives, not by our words alone.

reply from: Banned Member

I did not say that believing in not important. And neither did I say that all that is required is to live right.

reply from: Faramir

Aquinas said if someone "walks in the light he's been given" he will be saved. (Or somethign to that effect).
From a Catholic perspecitve the ordinary means of Salvation is through the Sacraments, but God is not bound by the Sacraments.
We don't believe that those outside the Church and outside Christianity are doomed. Everyone has a conscience, and those who listen to their consciences will be saved, in spite of the fact that through no fault of their own, their consciences might not be fully informed.
Besides all that, who knows what happens in the final moments of each life? It could very well be that God reveals himself to the nonbeliever and offers an opportunity to repent or not repent, to accept or not accept.

reply from: Banned Member

Concerned Parent, I know what you are trying to get me to say, and I am not going to say it. You want to me say that a person can be saved by works alone. That is not what I said, and I am not going to say it.
I believe that God in His wisdom knows who, by the witness of their lives, living out the greatest command knows best as judge who is to be saved and who will not be saved. We are judged on the balance of our lives, not by our words alone.
I am not prepared to say that I know what inward realities can only be known about a person's soul by God alone. I cannot know them. Only God can know them.

reply from: Faramir

No. This is a false dillema.
To show compassion for the mother does not mean that there is none for the baby.
And on this site at least it seems one must go further, and hate and condemn the woman in order to demonstrate the great love for the babies.

reply from: abc123

Your theology is very twisted; why are you even wasting your time being a practicing Catholic? You don't know if you are saved or if an atheist is saved or even if babies slaughtered at the mill are saved......

reply from: Faramir

Your theology is very twisted; why are you even wasting your time being a practicing Catholic? You don't know if you are saved or if an atheist is saved or even if babies slaughtered at the mill are saved......
Though I believe you are in serious error, I have respect for your beliefs and do not question your sincerity, in spite of the fact that you are not gracious enough to return the favor.

reply from: Banned Member

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#851

reply from: Faramir

This is what I had been attemting to say in my own words.
And I believe this would include people who have rejected the Gospel in good faith, and with no intent to be willfully ignorant.

reply from: Faramir

Since the Catholic Church essentially wrote and edited the Bible to suit themselves, I suppose it is only right that they interpret it as they see fit...Of course, this still does not address the issue of an atheist who lives a "righteous" life, and was exposed to "the Gospel," but rejected it. I would like nothing more than to believe there will be eternal bliss for those who are "worthy," but I will not lie and profess a faith that I do not feel in my heart. I refuse to believe that Emperor Constantine (the father of modern Catholicism, if history is to be believed) will be "saved" despite the fact that he only accepted Christianity on his deathbed, "just in case," but millions of good people will be condemned simply because they could not accept the Gospel. If God created me, then he made me both intelligent and skeptical, both attributes contributing greatly to my inability to simply believe as I'm told to believe. What a cruel joke "God" would have played on me if I am to be condemned for my honesty.
From my perspective as a practicing Catholic I do not agree with some of your statements about the Church. But I also do not believe that your rejection of the Gospel, again from my Catholic perpective, precludes the possibility of salvation.
It would be an error, imho, if you were to accept it "just in case." That would not be faith.

reply from: Faramir

The bottom line is that I as a Catholic, have no business saying that you or anyone else is going to hell because you don't believe as I do.

reply from: carolemarie

Both the baby and mom are equally important....
you don't have to pick one side or the other side. Their interest coincide. Hurt one you hurt the other.

reply from: carolemarie

Oh yeah, I'd be very interested to know if he ever answers that question as well........
I know you didn't ask me this question but I thought about it anyway.
Why not round up a bunch of kids, get one of those portable playgrounds (you know, with a slide, swing, climbing frame etc.), the more brightly coloured the better, and set it up as close to PP as you reckon you'll get away with. Get the kids to play and lark about having as much fun and making as much noise as they can. The customers would have to walk past, they'd at least hear it within 200yds and the colours would draw their eye. Wouldn't the sight/sound of the children playing make people think again? You'd get some protection from the pro-choice too, since you're just letting your kids play and not overtly protesting. And there'd be no need for photos.
I'd appreciate someone re-posting this so Yoda and Sander and anyone else who ignores me can see.
People don't have abortions because they hate children. Abortion isn't about the baby as much is it is about the mom's personal problems.

reply from: teddybearhamster

It's one very small oasis in a very large desert of slaughter...... but it does give me more strength to go on. Thanks.
it might only be one yoda, but thanks to you it's one less dead child. keep doing what you're doing.

reply from: yoda

Again, you are dodging the question.
I didn't ask which person was more important, did I? No, I didn't. Here's the REAL question again:
"Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?"

reply from: yoda

????? Say what? Abortion is not "about the baby"?
WHICH person is scheduled to be deliberately KILLED in an abortion???
WHICH person has requested that someone KILL their baby???
And the baby is just one of Mom's "personal problems"?
Kinda like a "punishment", maybe?

reply from: yoda

Thanks....... I will.

reply from: Banned Member

I can't believe that I just read that.

reply from: Faramir

????? Say what? Abortion is not "about the baby"?
WHICH person is scheduled to be deliberately KILLED in an abortion???
WHICH person has requested that someone KILL their baby???
And the baby is just one of Mom's "personal problems"?
Kinda like a "punishment", maybe?
If it were against the law to make dishonest internet posts, Mr. Vater would be sentenced to at least 30 years.
Am I the only one who sees the way he distorts the viewpoints of others?
For example, the comment that abortion is about "the mother's problems" is referring to the reasons she would abort.
Yoda has siezed that comment, taken it out of context, and then went into an interrogation with loaded questions, with the intent and purpose of making this poster seem to have no regard for the baby.
I think I must be getting numb since it no longer surprises or angers me.
It's just kind of amusing that someone can be so persistently dishonest and malicious, and that so many others excuse and enable it.

reply from: Faramir

I can't believe that I just read that.
Are you one of yodavater's pupils now? It seems you are working on mastering the art of distorting the views of others. You are not as good or as sneaky as Mr Yodavater, and nowhere nearly as malicious, but what you did here with this quote and your reaction WAS an incredible distortion and was very unfair.
Do you really think that when someone has an abortion that they are thinking about how much they want to kill a baby?
It is often the mom's personal problems that drive her to have an abortion.
Your disgust is misplaced and is inappropriate, because there was absolutely nothing in that post that diminished the importance of the baby involved.

reply from: carolemarie

This is what I had been attemting to say in my own words.
And I believe this would include people who have rejected the Gospel in good faith, and with no intent to be willfully ignorant.
Back to the original point, being prolife and rejecting Christ will mean that you are not saved and will end up in hell. It isn't about your POV! THe soul that sins dies. And in America, everyone has heard the gospel, especially if your prolife. If you choose to reject it, that IS your fault.
Jesus is the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father except through Him.

reply from: carolemarie

????? Say what? Abortion is not "about the baby"?
WHICH person is scheduled to be deliberately KILLED in an abortion???
WHICH person has requested that someone KILL their baby???
And the baby is just one of Mom's "personal problems"?
Kinda like a "punishment", maybe?
I am referring to the reasons people have abortions, in response to the post above it about if we take little kids out to play at a clinic.

reply from: carolemarie

Again, you are dodging the question.
I didn't ask which person was more important, did I? No, I didn't. Here's the REAL question again:
"Which is really more important to you, the emotional health of the woman who is having multiple abortions, or the physical LIFE of the babies she is killing?"
Of course the babies life is the most important thing.
But as I have posted, taking a picture isn't the only way women change their minds. They respond in greater numbers to kindness and help-

reply from: sander

So, which the heck is it? Which statement actually reflects your views????

reply from: carolemarie

Try to pay attention.
One statement was about why women seek abortions.
The other was what is the most important thing, a babies life or the emotional state of the mother.
Two different topics. I would appreciate it if you would quit delibertly taking my post out of context to try and call me prochoice. I am prolife and have spent many years living that out in deeds, not just words. You engage in slander each time you claim that I am not prolife which is a sin.

reply from: Banned Member

The most important thing is the unborn baby. I could care less how the woman feels about things emotionally. If she is going to kill a baby, she needs to be stopped.

reply from: sander

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.

reply from: 4given

It is my experience that the pro-abort crowd either denies it is a baby, or welcomes the relief of ending a pregnancy. A much wanted choice to kill their offspring.
Right.. and selfishness is at the top of the list. Some are distraught and coerced and ignorant, but most can assert that they comprehend they are pregnant with a human baby and killing it is unnatural and wrong. What defines a "personal problem"? Are you buying into (or trying to sell us) the pro-abort whatever goes - as long as I am not inconvenienced bit? Did you just state that mom's don't want to kill their children- they have personal problems that justify it?

reply from: Faramir

This is ridiculous. These are not conflicting statements.
So, which the heck is it? Which statement actually reflects your views????

reply from: carolemarie

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.

reply from: Banned Member

In every case the reason the woman has an abortion? SHE DOESN'T WANT A BABY!
Woman is concerned about how having a baby could change her life 16%
Woman can't afford baby now 21%
Woman has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood 12%
Woman is unready for responsibility 21%
Woman doesn't want others to know she has had sex or is pregnant 1%
Woman is not mature enough, or is too young to have a child 11%
Woman has all the children she wanted, or has all grown-up children 8%
Husband or partner wants woman to have an abortion 1%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Woman's parents want her to have abortion <1%
Woman was victim of rape or incest 1%

reply from: Faramir

Yes, there are reasons why she wouldn't want to have a baby. That's why she's confused and desperate.

reply from: Faramir

That's not what I've been told by those who counsel women.
But at any rate my comments were because another poster's comments were once again distorted so that the witch hunting game could continue.
I did not say anything justifies abortion. Personal problems drive them to abortion, but they don't justify it.
But there are plenty of reasons to have compassion, love, and understanding for the post abortive and for those contemplating abortion. The "lets string them up" mentality so prevalent here is counterproductive, imho.

reply from: Banned Member

Again, are you just stupid or something? the victim of convoluted thinking?
"I am pregnant, and can't afford the baby. I know, I'll get an abortion. Problem solved!"
It's not very confusing! Problem? Pregnant. Solution? Kill baby.

reply from: Faramir

I would say that with the choices you've given me, that I am "something."
You are not taking into consideration the confusion, desperation, and ignorance of those who abort. Do you really think they are thinking that they want to kill a baby? Many who abort are victims themselves. They are in horrible circumstances and have been pressured into making a bad choice.
Do you know what compassion is?
Do you think your hate for these mothers helps their babies?
I've never seen such a bitter Catholic in all my life as a Catholic, excpet for a couple that fell away from the Church.

reply from: Banned Member

You don't have a single thing to back up your claim that I am hateful.
I am not hateful, of you, or any mother that has an abortion. The only thing I hate is abortion itself and the lies that cause more abortions.

reply from: Faramir

Then what's the deal with all the personal attacks?
You sure come across as one angry guy.

reply from: Banned Member

Do you even know what a personal attack is?

reply from: Faramir

You've got no business calling me "stupid," okay? That's out of line.
Unless you want this to be some kind of silly free for all and we pull out all stops with the name calling.
I'm not totally innocent of it, I know, but I've only done it in defense and after enduring many personal attacks, insults, and distortions of my statements.

reply from: galen

Oh yeah, I'd be very interested to know if he ever answers that question as well........
I know you didn't ask me this question but I thought about it anyway.
Why not round up a bunch of kids, get one of those portable playgrounds (you know, with a slide, swing, climbing frame etc.), the more brightly coloured the better, and set it up as close to PP as you reckon you'll get away with. Get the kids to play and lark about having as much fun and making as much noise as they can. The customers would have to walk past, they'd at least hear it within 200yds and the colours would draw their eye. Wouldn't the sight/sound of the children playing make people think again? You'd get some protection from the pro-choice too, since you're just letting your kids play and not overtly protesting. And there'd be no need for photos.
I'd appreciate someone re-posting this so Yoda and Sander and anyone else who ignores me can see.
---------------------------------
actually i kinda like this idea...

reply from: yoda

Now you're implying that someone here has claimed that photography is the "only way" women change their minds? Why do you do that?
Have I questioned your approach? Have I told you that you're doing more harm than good? Have I suggested that I know more about stopping abortion than you do?
Come down to Knoxville sometime, and try being "kind and helpful" from 150 feet away. Maybe I could learn something from your approach?

reply from: yoda

Exactly.
Preserving life must be the first duty of any genuine prolifer. Kindness and helpfulness must not get in the way of our first duty. If we are all smiles and open arms to them as they enter the "portal of death", how will they know we think they are doing something wrong?
Should we not appear just a tiny bit upset by their actions? Should we not betray our horror by the expression on our faces?

reply from: yoda

Righteous anger over abortion is just the opposite of hate. Hate is killing an unborn baby and feeling nothing.

reply from: Faramir

Now you're implying that someone here has claimed that photography is the "only way" women change their minds? Why do you do that?
Have I questioned your approach? Have I told you that you're doing more harm than good? Have I suggested that I know more about stopping abortion than you do?
Come down to Knoxville sometime, and try being "kind and helpful" from 150 feet away. Maybe I could learn something from your approach?
I heard of a BRILLIANT IDEA.
Hold up large signs with messages including a telephone number.
Instead of being confrontational, show them that you care and want them to call to get help.

reply from: yoda

For anyone whose circumstances support such an action, I can see possibilities for it. In my case they do not. But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who tries it...... say maybe the person who first had the idea?

reply from: carolemarie

Exactly.
Preserving life must be the first duty of any genuine prolifer. Kindness and helpfulness must not get in the way of our first duty. If we are all smiles and open arms to them as they enter the "portal of death", how will they know we think they are doing something wrong?
Should we not appear just a tiny bit upset by their actions? Should we not betray our horror by the expression on our faces?
HMM they migh guess your prolife by the sign you are holding that says there is help and a phone #, you can smile at them and wave them over to you. You would be suprised at how many stop and talk if you are friendly.

reply from: carolemarie

Now you're implying that someone here has claimed that photography is the "only way" women change their minds? Why do you do that?
Have I questioned your approach? Have I told you that you're doing more harm than good? Have I suggested that I know more about stopping abortion than you do?
Come down to Knoxville sometime, and try being "kind and helpful" from 150 feet away. Maybe I could learn something from your approach?
I was answering your question that was implying that the picture taking saved lives so was good even if it made women feel terrible. It isn't a either or situtation. I am glad that baby was saved. I think it is great you try to do something. Most of us have to stand some distance from the clinic. Have you tried a sound system?

reply from: sander

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.

reply from: cracrat

For anyone whose circumstances support such an action, I can see possibilities for it. In my case they do not. But I'd be interested to hear from anyone who tries it...... say maybe the person who first had the idea?
Unfortunately I have no access to kids or a playground. And the abortion clinic in my fair city is a small suite of rooms on the third floor of the general infirmary. I suspect anyone who saw this 'protest' outside would see no connection to the activities upstairs but rather assume I was either a kiddie-fiddler trying to get a date or one of those street artists trying to make an undefined statement.

reply from: yoda

There are many signs like that, and others like mine that stress the personhood of the unborn.
Smiling is ineffectual when they don't look your way. And they would have to do a lot more than "stop" to talk to us, they would have to walk several dozen yards out of their way. A few have done so, and we've had good conversations. Most stare straight ahead into the abyss.
But the invitation remains open for you to come down and show us how to do it. I'm always open to learning new ways to save babies.

reply from: yoda

I don't recall that "implication" either. My meaning is this: saving a baby is much, much more important than making friends of the customers by pampering them as they go to do their killing. Reasonable people might see that pampering as "encouragement" for them to continue on their way to kill.
Only a loud voice. Most of us think that a megaphone would be seen as hostile, and might bring a "Disturbing the Peace" charge.

reply from: carolemarie

I don't recall that "implication" either. My meaning is this: saving a baby is much, much more important than making friends of the customers by pampering them as they go to do their killing. Reasonable people might see that pampering as "encouragement" for them to continue on their way to kill.
Only a loud voice. Most of us think that a megaphone would be seen as hostile, and might bring a "Disturbing the Peace" charge.
A sound system, not a megaphone. A sound system carries your voice in a conversational tone without distortion and depending on what you are saying it isn't seen as hostile. Check with an attorney, each city is different and lots of times it depends on the legal sound decible limits...some require a permit, you can use a karoke machine.

reply from: churchmouse

Faramir you made this comment..........."There is a lot of room for negotiation in some areas."
Like where, could you give some examples.

reply from: Faramir

I don't remember the comment. Could you quote the entire post so I can see it in context?

reply from: yoda

You mean like a bullhorn? No, so far no one here has turned to electronic voice amplification. I think there is a natural reluctant by my "gang" to use something that might be perceived as aggressive. And since I hardly ever say anything to them, I won't be the first. I let my sign and my camera speak for me.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, churchmouse. Watch out for the rat.

reply from: carolemarie

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?

reply from: faithman

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Thats right, you have the experiance of killing 3. Tell us ole wise one, how does that FEEEEELLLL?

reply from: sander

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Experience, guess we have that much in common.
I was having my first baby when RvW was enacted. I started doing what I could then, how long have you been at this?
And what I've done has evolved over the years.
I'm now to the point where I can help support a single mother who kept her babies, when abortion was the option. I told her I would help and thank God I've been able to keep that promise.
Nearly all of my pay check goes to help her and supporting my local crisis pregnancy center.
I've counseld women when they were in the throws of deciding. Most kept their babies, and acutally, only one that I can recall went thru with her abortion. To this day she regrets that decision.
By my activisim I know of several proaborts who changed their minds and are now stauchly prolife.
I write letters to the editor, was once in a tit for tat exchange in the newspaper with a proabort physician. I got one of the nation's leading ABC link researches in on that one. It was great! The poor doc slithered away in defeat.
I've written so much to politicians that I have a file full of responses from the higest office in the land to least.
I no longer live in an area that has any abortion clinics or PP, so protesting or appearing at one of those is no longer an option.
But, any opportunity that arises in the future I will take full advantage of doing so.
My prolilfe stance includes protection for those babies killed by birth control. It also includes those who would be killed because of rape or incest. I've never once said I would fight tooth and nail any legislation that would protect the unborn with exceptions and never have lifted a finger to do so.
Can you say you would not fight legislation that is for full personhood status without exceptions?
I don't sit by and do nothing but vote (though I do that and only prolife) and post on message boards. I speak up at every given opportunity in defense of the unborn.
So, if your activisim gives you the right to quesiton others, so does mine.

reply from: carolemarie

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Thats right, you have the experiance of killing 3. Tell us ole wise one, how does that FEEEEELLLL?
You are a jerk and I have no intention of discussing my feelings with you.

reply from: faithman

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Thats right, you have the experiance of killing 3. Tell us ole wise one, how does that FEEEEELLLL?
You are a jerk and I have no intention of discussing my feelings with you.
I'd rather be a jerk than a baby killer anyday of the week. And just why won't you discuss the feelings you are SSSSSOOOOO willing to sacrifice womb childen for? Seems like something that comes at such a high price is worth discussing. I just happen to value the womb child more than anything a baby killer has to say, so I guess you are doing all of us a favor.

reply from: yoda

That's a pretty impressive list. Keep up the good work!

reply from: sander

That's a pretty impressive list. Keep up the good work!
Thank you, Yoda. I take that as high praise, indeed!
I think you just made my day!

reply from: carolemarie

I have been prolife for 13 years, when I changed my mind, and it took a year to do so, I went out to the clinic to help other women make better choices. Because if it was murder I couldn't stay home and ignor it. Before that I was prochoice.
Thank you for sharing some of your experiences. I think it is great that you have done so much. And it is wonderful that you continue to help people. Why don't you post about some of that so we can learn other things to do that save lives.
And no, I wouldn't support a personhood bill without exceptions as I have said a million times. It will not pass. I am pragmatic about these things. You are not required to agree, but don't call me a fake prolifer.

reply from: carolemarie

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Thats right, you have the experiance of killing 3. Tell us ole wise one, how does that FEEEEELLLL?
You are a jerk and I have no intention of discussing my feelings with you.
I'd rather be a jerk than a baby killer anyday of the week. And just why won't you discuss the feelings you are SSSSSOOOOO willing to sacrifice womb childen for? Seems like something that comes at such a high price is worth discussing. I just happen to value the womb child more than anything a baby killer has to say, so I guess you are doing all of us a favor.
Did you miss the part where I became prolife?

reply from: sander

I have been prolife for 13 years, when I changed my mind, and it took a year to do so, I went out to the clinic to help other women make better choices. Because if it was murder I couldn't stay home and ignor it. Before that I was prochoice.
Thank you for sharing some of your experiences. I think it is great that you have done so much. And it is wonderful that you continue to help people. Why don't you post about some of that so we can learn other things to do that save lives.
And no, I wouldn't support a personhood bill without exceptions as I have said a million times. It will not pass. I am pragmatic about these things. You are not required to agree, but don't call me a fake prolifer.
I don't know what else I can post other than what I have. It's not hard to "adopt", if you will, a single mom. Churches are one source, crisis pregnancy centers, and even friends or family members.
I think of ALL the things I have done that is the most rewarding.
If someone is in contact with a woman who is in the midst of deciding to abort or not, often the offer of genuine, practical help will tip them in the right direction.
I forgot to mention something else that I did one time as God led me.
In the state where I lived a prolife bill was being submitted on the ballot.
I prayed and hoped it would pass. God directed me to call ALL and I mean ALL the churches in the phone book to encourage the leadership to mention this to their congregations.
As I was praying about this, I was thinking I wonder if everyone knows and God spoke and said, "tell them"! Yikes.
So, in the middle of this ALL day event He had a friend call me and ask me what I was doing? I told her and she helped, or I think I may still be on the phone! lol
So, I guess those are the two things I can think of to share. Thanks for asking, btw.

reply from: faithman

Ah, finger pointing again...tsk tsk. Remember there's three pointing back.
I thought we're not suppose to read each other's mind and hearts???
The two statements needed clarifying, imo.
And holding an opinion is not a sin, just thought I'd help you out there a little.
Quit calling me pro choice! I have spent years and years living out being prolife. I have seen hundreds of babies saved over the years doing sidewalk counseling. I am getting sick of slander from sander.
Funny, I didn't see the word choice in the entire post.
Why would you want to try and wear that shoe if it doesn't fit?
I'm getting sick of your self righteous, holier than thou, I'm better and know better than everyone else attitutude.
Guess we're even.
Guess so. What do you actually do? Anything at all? I base my comments on experience, what are you basing yours on?
Thats right, you have the experiance of killing 3. Tell us ole wise one, how does that FEEEEELLLL?
You are a jerk and I have no intention of discussing my feelings with you.
I'd rather be a jerk than a baby killer anyday of the week. And just why won't you discuss the feelings you are SSSSSOOOOO willing to sacrifice womb childen for? Seems like something that comes at such a high price is worth discussing. I just happen to value the womb child more than anything a baby killer has to say, so I guess you are doing all of us a favor.
Did you miss the part where I became prolife?
No. But I think you did.

reply from: Faramir

This is the kind of thing I find inspiring and a wonderful idea to emulate--a practical and effective way to help prevent an abortion, using kindness and compassion.
I never thought of "adoting a single mom" but it's great idea. But one that I should no doubt first thoroughy discuss with my wife.

reply from: yoda

So IF you thought it might pass, then you would support it?

reply from: nancyu

So IF you thought it might pass, then you would support it?
No she would not.
It has nothing to do with pragmatism, it has everything to do with putting a woman's interests ahead of an unborn baby's. and how great it that???!!!!
Which is why we need person hood legislation now. We can not wait for killers like this to decide when an unborn child can become a person. They are persons NOW. They need protection NOW from people like this!

reply from: nancyu

Sander, I stand here in awe of you. I wonder how many of us have been indirectly affected by your actions and activism. I was 10 years old when Roe V Wade was enacted. I had no clue it happened, or what it meant.
Thank you and any like you who persevered with your attitudes which ultimately changed mine and brought me to where I am today. To this "silly" forum which just might change the world as we know it; from pro death to pro life.

reply from: yoda

So IF you thought it might pass, then you would support it?
No she would not.
Is that correct, carole?

reply from: carolemarie

So IF you thought it might pass, then you would support it?
If it was my state, and it looked like the bill would pass, without the exceptions I would like to see, yes I would support it. I would vote for it. But I would first have tried to get the exceptions into the bill. But if that was voted down and the bill was on the ballot I would support it.
Now if your state had a bill that banned abortion but with the exceptions I would like to see, and it looked like it might pass would you support it?

reply from: yoda

I see.... so the "exceptions" are important to you, right? Even IF it would pass without them, you'd still be trying to expose babies of rape and incest to the abortionist's tools? You really don't want such babies to live?
Of course. And then I'd turn right around and try to get the exceptions eliminated, because I want ALL the babies to live.

reply from: sander

You make it really, really hard to believe you are a sold out prolifer. I know that upsets you, but I can't sit idly by and say nothing. You worry about the post abortive mothers who may wander in here and I also worry about those who wander in here and wonder what does it really mean to be PRO-LIFE!
You would actively try and get the exceptions in, no matter what, even though those exceptions include babies conceived via rape and incest and those who die because of BC. Those are dead babies too, why do want to see those babies dead? I really do not understand your mindset here.
I know you've done so much for the prolife cause and that should be respected; it is by me and others too.
But, to actively persue exceptions that will allow mothers to kill perfectly healthy babies because of rape and incest boggles my mind.
Yes. I will take what I can get for the babies and continue to pray that one day this entire nation will wake up to the truth that all babies conceived are persons and deserve protection and the right to live.

reply from: sander

Nancy so nicely said,
Thank you for your kind words, Nancy. I appreciate it.
I don't think I've done much, but I hope what little I have done it has made a difference.
Even though some of CM's views are staggering anti-life, I pale in comparison to what she has done.
If I compare what I've done to Yoda and Faithman, I want to slink away in embarassment.
But, your words were sweet and I so appreciate what you said. Lord bless you, friend.

reply from: carolemarie

My exceptions were jailing women and banning the birth control.
I would consider rape and incest as exceptions to pass a bill but I wouldn't vote against it if they were not it the bill.
And yes, I would lobby for what I believe is right! Seek a friendly amendment. We are suppose to render to Ceaser what is his, and since we live in a participatory democracy our participation is required.

reply from: 4given

That is frightening! How does "friendly amendment" apply to the destruction of innocent life? How is any life less deserving of protection? .. Before your croanies jump in- I realize what you are saying and not saying. I am surprised at that comment though. And I do not understand why or how you could state that these lives are worth less attention or fight. Oh to get the bill passed.. right.. Do you not feel their lives are worth more than a "mercy" based on exception killing?

reply from: faithman

My exceptions were jailing women and banning the birth control.
I would consider rape and incest as exceptions to pass a bill but I wouldn't vote against it if they were not it the bill.
Once again you wrongly state that we live in a democracy
And yes, I would lobby for what I believe is right! Seek a friendly amendment. We are suppose to render to Ceaser what is his, and since we live in a participatory democracy our participation is required.
Once again you wrongly state that we live in a democracy. America is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. There is a huge difference. And also for your information, in america, we the people are ceaser. Are you willingly SSSSSSSOOOOO ignorant, Or has killing 3 caused you not to be able to learn? And we don't seek an amendment, as an amendment is not nessisary, and constitutionaly dangerous. An act of congress is all that is required for our Republic form of government to atribute personhood to the womb child. The most important action a personhood activist to take, is to get the IAAP cards into as many hands as posible, and the poster in front of as many eyes as posible. I am still able at present to send a sample of both free. Just contack me thru PM.

reply from: carolemarie

That is frightening! How does "friendly amendment" apply to the destruction of innocent life? How is any life less deserving of protection? .. Before your croanies jump in- I realize what you are saying and not saying. I am surprised at that comment though. And I do not understand why or how you could state that these lives are worth less attention or fight. Oh to get the bill passed.. right.. Do you not feel their lives are worth more than a "mercy" based on exception killing?
I said that if they were in the bill (rape and incest) I would still support the bill. Because it would save the 90% of other babies. I don't think rape and incest are good reasons to kill a baby. But you take what you can get. The 90% who would live are worth making a compromise.

reply from: 4given

I understand what you said and why .. The 10% are worth just as much.. I hope and pray that when presented- the exceptions won't be necessary to pass it. Why not attempt to pass a personhood bill without ? I already understand that your answer and likely others will be the same- It will save the 90 potentially.. I just can't make sense of a compromise that sentences the others to die.. PRAY!

reply from: yoda

That was the point I was trying to make earlier..... there's no need for us to compromise on anything...... that's the job of the politicians we elected to write laws.
We need to be the "pressure" on them from the prolife side, to counter the pressure on them from the prodeath side. Then let the politicians decide where to slice the pie, not us. That's not our job.

reply from: survivor73

now you sound like a polititian saying" pesonaly i am apposed but pollitically i am all for it." or" the church should stay out of a polititians political life"
to say leave religion out is just what the pro-choicers want to hear. when one falls into denial it is easy to believe all the lies they are promoting for Satan.
Christ Himself tells us that the devil "was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). In the same breath, Our Lord calls the devil a liar and a murderer.
Christ has come to destroy the works of the devil. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6). He is the Way to salvation precisely because He is the Truth, shattering the devil's lies, and because He is the Life, undoing the devil's work of death.
abortion will end through the Church, because Christ has conquered death, and it is He who works through each of us to bring this victory to every segment of our society.

reply from: 4given

Are you really sure you want to go there, the situation being as it is on this forum, and considering your own involvement?
That was a rude thing to say. It was not directed towards you btw. My own involvement in what? I don't speak for another or with another. I am not sure I, myself have cronies.. but I appreciate the gesture none-the-less. The statement was inappropriate. I acknowledge that.

reply from: 4given

That was the point I was trying to make earlier..... there's no need for us to compromise on anything...... that's the job of the politicians we elected to write laws.
We need to be the "pressure" on them from the prolife side, to counter the pressure on them from the prodeath side. Then let the politicians decide where to slice the pie, not us. That's not our job.
I agree..

reply from: nancyu

now you sound like a polititian saying" pesonaly i am apposed but pollitically i am all for it." or" the church should stay out of a polititians political life"
to say leave religion out is just what the pro-choicers want to hear. when one falls into denial it is easy to believe all the lies they are promoting for Satan.
Christ Himself tells us that the devil "was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks in character, because he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44). In the same breath, Our Lord calls the devil a liar and a murderer.
Christ has come to destroy the works of the devil. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6). He is the Way to salvation precisely because He is the Truth, shattering the devil's lies, and because He is the Life, undoing the devil's work of death.
abortion will end through the Church, because Christ has conquered death, and it is He who works through each of us to bring this victory to every segment of our society.

reply from: nancyu

Human life. A human being. A child. A person.

reply from: cracrat

Why are humans more deserving of life?
They're not especially. But I have to eat something to keep body and soul together.

reply from: cracrat

Why are humans more deserving of life?
Are you implying that it is of no more significance if someone kills your girlfriend than if they had slaughtered a cow or harvested a piece of fruit? In the U.S., we call people who feel that way "sociopaths."
In the grand scheme of things, no it is not. On a personal level though, of course the death of someone close is of greater significance. But that is mostly to do with the level of attachment you have to whoever, or indeed whatever, died. A family pet dying can be just as traumatic as the death of a peson.
To suggest a human is of greater intrinsic value than any other life on Earth, based solely on the accident of species membership, is IMO absurd.

reply from: faithman

Why are humans more deserving of life?
Are you implying that it is of no more significance if someone kills your girlfriend than if they had slaughtered a cow or harvested a piece of fruit? In the U.S., we call people who feel that way "sociopaths."
In the grand scheme of things, no it is not. On a personal level though, of course the death of someone close is of greater significance. But that is mostly to do with the level of attachment you have to whoever, or indeed whatever, died. A family pet dying can be just as traumatic as the death of a peson.
To suggest a human is of greater intrinsic value than any other life on Earth, based solely on the accident of species membership, is IMO absurd.
What is absurd, is for the godless to make any statement about human value. The Creator places the value of one human soul at more than all the riches of the world. The United States founding was based on that presuposition. Our value and rights are derived from the Creator, and were written into our founding documents by the founders. You can violate these truths, but you can never take them away. The foundation of all human rights, is the right to life. $0 wordds into the pre-amble of the constitution, the blessing of life is secured for womb child posterity.

reply from: faithman

My exceptions were jailing women and banning the birth control.
I would consider rape and incest as exceptions to pass a bill but I wouldn't vote against it if they were not it the bill.
And yes, I would lobby for what I believe is right! Seek a friendly amendment. We are suppose to render to Ceaser what is his, and since we live in a participatory democracy our participation is required.
Once again you tell the fib that we live in a democracy. Now I know you are willingly ignorant, as we have all ready corrected that error. We do not live in a democracy, and never have. We live in a constitutional republic. A huge difference. Also, we are not advocating an amendment, as an amendment is unnessisary. What we advocate is the life at conception act. Congress already has the power to act. And we do not *****er with baby killers over the lives of babies. This issue ends when womb children enjoy personhood thru equality. This issue proves you are pro-choice, as you put the interest of the killer mom over the interest of the child killed. That is a solid alinement with Planned Parenthood.

reply from: cracrat

Yes. To my mind it has just as much right to live as I do. It's just going about its day, doing what it does. I can kill it, because I'm that much bigger and we have developed the newspaper. To do so though for no greater crime than falling in my line of vision strikes me as the actions of a bully.
Of course not. That would be silly.
The question was why humans are more deserving of life. I don't think we are more deserving than any other creature on this Earth. Doesn't mean I want to see either be exterminated, but rather I try to treat all life with equal respect.
From a completely detached POV I can see little difference in the life of a child to that of a cockroach. Both are merely vehicles conveying their genes to the next generation. If they succeed their line continues, if they fail that is the end of that and others more suited to the challenges of life will prosper in their place. From a human perspective though, the life of a child has immeasurably greater worth. In it there is the potential for anything, whilst in the cockroach there is only the potential for breeding and crawling aound in rubbish.
And no, a cockroach should not be afforded the same protections as the rest of us. For one thing such a law would be hopelessly unenforcable.

reply from: cracrat

You are in no position to comment on my relationship with God, being as you know nothing of it, and in no position to comment on the God given value of human life since you advocate and support violence against those who would abort children.
And your constitution doesn't apply to me so I couldn't give a crap what it says.

reply from: nancyu

My exceptions were jailing women and banning the birth control.
I would consider rape and incest as exceptions to pass a bill but I wouldn't vote against it if they were not it the bill.
And yes, I would lobby for what I believe is right! Seek a friendly amendment. We are suppose to render to Ceaser what is his, and since we live in a participatory democracy our participation is required.
Once again you tell the fib that we live in a democracy. Now I know you are willingly ignorant, as we have all ready corrected that error. We do not live in a democracy, and never have. We live in a constitutional republic. A huge difference. Also, we are not advocating an amendment, as an amendment is unnessisary. What we advocate is the life at conception act. Congress already has the power to act. And we do not *****er with baby killers over the lives of babies. This issue ends when womb children enjoy personhood thru equality. This issue proves you are pro-choice, as you put the interest of the killer mom over the interest of the child killed. That is a solid alinement with Planned Parenthood.
Yes we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/cceducate/demvsrep.html

reply from: sander

Great link, Nancy!
I put it in my favorites.
It's amazing how many people don't understand the form of government they live in! Do they not teach this in the schools anymore????

reply from: nancyu

My exceptions were jailing women and banning the birth control.
I would consider rape and incest as exceptions to pass a bill but I wouldn't vote against it if they were not it the bill.
And yes, I would lobby for what I believe is right! Seek a friendly amendment. We are suppose to render to Ceaser what is his, and since we live in a participatory democracy our participation is required.
Once again you tell the fib that we live in a democracy. Now I know you are willingly ignorant, as we have all ready corrected that error. We do not live in a democracy, and never have. We live in a constitutional republic. A huge difference. Also, we are not advocating an amendment, as an amendment is unnessisary. What we advocate is the life at conception act. Congress already has the power to act. And we do not *****er with baby killers over the lives of babies. This issue ends when womb children enjoy personhood thru equality. This issue proves you are pro-choice, as you put the interest of the killer mom over the interest of the child killed. That is a solid alinement with Planned Parenthood.
Yes we live in a constitutional republic, not a democracy. http://www.angelfire.com/nv/cceducate/demvsrep.html
Your site lists "God" as the ultimate authority in a "Constitutional Republic." This properly describes a theocracy. Since the majority is authorized to alter the Constitution, and the Constitution is the basis of all law in this country, we actually live in a Democratic Republic....
The great thing about the internet is that people can always find someone who has written an article that supports their views, however ridiculous those views might be....
http://www.britannica.com/nations/United-States
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/charters.html
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/cliches/democracy.html
"Individual rights are NOT subject to a public vote: A majority has NO right to vote away the rights of a minority"
Do you believe these views are ridiculous?

reply from: nancyu

Yes, as related to U.S. government. In theory, there is no right you possess that could not be lost if it were the will of the majority. It would require only a Constitutional amendment....
http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/ThreePerspectivesontheConstitution/ARepublic,IfYouCanKeepIt.shtml

reply from: nancyu

Why are humans more deserving of life?
Are you implying that it is of no more significance if someone kills your girlfriend than if they had slaughtered a cow or harvested a piece of fruit? In the U.S., we call people who feel that way "sociopaths."
Answer the question:
Why are humans more deserving of life?
Have you been under a rock for the past 35 years? Apparently, they are not.

reply from: nancyu

Yes, as related to U.S. government. In theory, there is no right you possess that could not be lost if it were the will of the majority. It would require only a Constitutional amendment....
http://www.constitutioncenter.org/explore/ThreePerspectivesontheConstitution/ARepublic,IfYouCanKeepIt.shtml
I don't understand what point, if any, you are attempting to make here...Nothing in this article contradicts what I posted.
I'm not so much a debater as one who seeks the truth. I wasn't contradicting you at all. (I suppose you are not used to that)

reply from: nancyu

I haven't been alive for 35 years.
Well that explains it then. See, there was this Supreme Court decision 35 years ago which seems to have given women the impression that they can KILL their unborn children for any reason. Humans are apparently less deserving of life than other species, not more deserving.

reply from: nancyu

Really? I had no idea! I mean, I've been on pro-life and pro-choice sites for ages and this fact has never cropped up! /sarcasm
Newsflash -- People aren't mean to you because you are transexual, they are mean to you because you are a jerk.

Yes, but do chickens kill their own young? Do cows? If it was aliens coming from outerspace to kill us I might understand it more than humans killing humans. It makes no sense.
I'm sorry that people eat meat. Truly if that upsets you I'm sorry. I just happen to be more upset about babies being murdered, because I'm a mother and an aunt and I have feelings for children that I can't explain. I just know that you are not supposed to kill them.
I hope you find happiness in life.

reply from: sander

How about an alien with a chainsaw?? Or cockroches are as valuable as humans????
Is this Ripley's Believe it or Not? Cause it's starting to look that way. I'm just saying.

reply from: sander

It's superior in every way, it can't be defeated.
No point in resisting.
As valuable? Yes. They are a vital part of the ecosystem. They serve many, many useful functions. Just because they are ugly, doesn't make them unworthy of life.
Do you kill humans you don't like because they look ugly or creepy, or because they go through garbage bins, looking for food?
Why should cockroaches deserve to die, just to make you feel better?
Shouldn't you die, to make people who dislike you feel better?
Good grief, calm down, Vexing.
I was just making an observation on the line this thread was taking.
That okay with you, or do I need a permission slip?
I don't think anything deserves to die, I hate death, that's why I hate abortion.
Now, if you hated abortion too, if you believed abortion should be illegal, if you were pro-life and believed abortion=murder, I would take your position on cockroaches and aliens seriously. Okay...maybe not the aliens.

reply from: sk1bianca

you pro-choicers are truly amazing. you care more about animals than children, yet you acuse the pro-lifers of not caring about starving children in africa or so...
actually i have heard of a guy who had sex with one of his sheep and the police were wandering if it was rape so they thought they should ask the sheep if it was consensual... i don't know if the guy got jailed or fined or anything. however, zoophylia (did i spell it right) isn't anything new...
and... i don't eat animals. and not because i consider myself to be equal to an animal. but because i feel sorry for them.

reply from: cracrat

I have NEVER heard of people raping chickens or their chicks on a highly regular basis. Yet you'll kill them and eat them often enough.
Well done, you built a strawman.
I'm sure the crows are terrified.
See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4748292.stm

Makes me laugh every time.

reply from: nancyu

Precious and few, are the moments we two agree.

reply from: sk1bianca

well in that case you have nothing to worry about, vexing. our race is wiping itself out pretty well thru abortion. no other animal does that. every species is fighting for survival and protecting their offspring, except humans.
further more, i don't see how abortion could save endangered species...
you say it's ok to kill unborn children because it's ok to kill animals. then you say it's NOT ok to kill animals and not even cause them some discomfort, but it's STILL ok to kill unborn children. isn't that interesting...

reply from: nancyu

I will. I will swear off meat, if you become pro life, and help in the fight for full person hood for the unborn.

reply from: heather

God is not pro-choice. Abortion is murder.

reply from: yoda

Welcome to the forum, Heather.

reply from: ProInformed

"yes, but the choicers that are like on the ehealthforum won't listen to you. you won't convince anyone that way. you will never get anywhere in a debate because of the fact they will attack you about how it's just because of religion. Believe me, I know...."
I understand jujujellybean. But even though I was an atheist when I became pro-life, and therefore never used religious arguments against abortion, practically every choicer I talked to pretended that ALL pro-lifers are 'religious fanatics' trying to 'impose morality'. While it might not be very effective to use ONLY religious arguments against abortion, I don't think religion should be censored either. Having said that though I personally prefer to keep my pro-life advocacy mosly non-religious even though I am no longer an atheist because I know how much the choicers depend on their 'pro-lifers are just religious fanatics' crutch; they rely SO HEAVILY on that particular evasion tactic. BUT while it's debatable whether or not religion should be censored out of pro-life advocacy, IMHO it is NOT debatable whether or not pro-lifers should challenge choicers on their cowardly usage of such an evasion tactic.

reply from: survivor73

Stop eating meat then.
Animals are living too.
So are plants, for that matter.
God gave Adam&Eve the power to rule over all the plants and animals. this also means He gave us the ok to eat them. however i think the deadly poisonus one came as a result of the first sin ever commited by humans on earth (the eating of the aplle off the forbidden tree). if we doid not eat plants and aimals or drink water we would all starve to death.

reply from: yoda

Hey, maybe this means that Vexing is going to stop eating both plants AND animals, ya think?


2017 ~ LifeDiscussions.org ~ Discussions on Life, Abortion, and the Surrounding Politics